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Everybody, thanks for joining.

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I'm just waiting for our guests.

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Just waiting for our guests.

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I hope this works.

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see.

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Hello.

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Okay, great. everyone can hear.

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I hear it fit well.

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Oh.

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So I think it's working.

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Hello, everyone.

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Mike, can you say something again so that...

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okay yeah there we go.

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is the signal everyone who comes to tab comp supports Bitcoin and if you weren't there

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you you don't care about Bitcoin.

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Was Podcom there we don't we don't know if they were or do we?

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If they're anonymous, just assumed they were there.

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can't, that's like when in 30 Rock, when Jack Donaghy says,

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uh, Kenneth says when he votes, he just writes in Jesus Christ.

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then Jack Donaghy says, that's Republican.

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We count those.

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We're just waiting for Rod Palmer to take the stage.

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I see people are coming up.

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Okay. So you guys are very funny,

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But I can't figure out what the point of it all is.

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So I've been listening to the podcast

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and I've been following you guys on Twitter.

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And one example was like,

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didn't you make this AI like thing

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with like Michael Saylor in tuxedos?

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And then there was the midget wrestling.

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I went to the midget wrestling event in Las Vegas,

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but I thought there was supposed to be a...

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Fundraiser for Samurai and no one ever asked me for money. I brought rich friends and no one asked me for money, and then they had to plead guilty.

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And I was just confused the whole time. But that is a metaphor for how I feel when I listen to the podcast, where I think it's really funny.

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I don't know what the point is.

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the point that you really get Matthew Cratter because I'm in, that's the point.

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know, if that's all it is.

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The point is to report the news.

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We're credentialed We are just reporting the news and discussing

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the latest events in the Bitcoin community.

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people often tell us that they think, or you're not funny,

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like you said, they tell us that we're funny.

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point is not to be funny.

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The point is to report the news.

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And we have just found that a lot of people, it's just a bifuritated

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environment where some people think the news is hilarious and some people it makes them

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grumpy.

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that is kind of the phenomenon.

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are like, plebslop is a good example.

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It's kind of the point of the space.

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We are reporting on the plebslop.

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Plebslop is ubiquitous.

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Plebslop is everywhere.

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Plebslop is the lifeblood, it is the pulse of this entire ecosystem.

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Some people think that's funny.

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Some people, makes them giggle.

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And some people, it makes them very grumpy.

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It makes them crash out.

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It makes

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them study extra hard at Crattergarden.

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But, you know, we're just reporting the news.

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And yeah, I definitely share your disdain for like when you see,

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you just see like, I remember this happened like years ago, but it was just like you

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got like Michael

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Sale has this huge Twitter account and then it's just like Bitcoin is hope and like the

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AI generated image and you're just like and then like that's like the whole account

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is just that and you just think like why does it have any followers at all like he

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doesn't He didn't say anything.

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And it's just baffling.

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And then he did the,

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and he's totally phoned it in in Las Vegas

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and he just did like a 21 AI art slides or whatever.

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And they're just like, it's simple.

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I mean, but on the other hand, you don't know.

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I mean, Milton Friedman used to say

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there are idea manufacturers and then idea distributors.

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And so there's gotta be like a,

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there's like this food chain of people.

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There's like a Neil deGrasse Tyson who's like,

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He's not like doing the original research, but he's moving it from zone C to zone D,

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and then slowly it makes it into the masses.

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And so I don't know, maybe it's just, maybe I'm being grumpy, I don't know.

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But I am disappointed by the whole media landscape is predictable and boring.

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And when I follow you guys on Twitter, you have the only Twitter account that I cannot predict what will happen next.

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Everyone else, even you, Mike, I know what the whole next year's tweets are going to be.

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But...

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But with this Bitcoin bugle thing, have no idea where it's going to I don't know how

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much of that is just because it's completely random, but it is definitely interesting.

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let's it's

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entropy. we listened to 48.

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We talk about this.

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Anybody who knows who we are, listen to 40 hours of Bitcoin podcasts per week.

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in what's important in that is not to focus all on macro or not the focus

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all on octet or any specific subject.

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It's to get the entropy.

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I think the randomness that you're thinking about comes from the entropy of

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the

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Yes, so we have a hand up, please.

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I think it's very apparent that people aren't smoking enough cigarettes, and I think that's

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what you're running into on a regular basis of, you know, the plebslop industrial complex,

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it really started.

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to

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on. And started to on.

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And

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the history of PLEPSLOP, the chapter two of my book, The PLEPSLOP Standard.

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And it's,

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I think what we've done a good job is we have done a good job of classifying and

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explaining something that everybody sees and feels, but they haven't been able to

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put a finger on what it is. But I think that the confusion that you're seeing

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right now is very few people are doing the very basic things that they should

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be doing.

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Like there's a general disrespect for credentials.

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There's generally a disrespect for anything thoughtful

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or just generally thought out in general.

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And I think where the bugle shines,

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Well, as we put time into things that we do, we have low time preference and we just, you know, we observe that's part of the 40 hours per week is lots of observation.

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the general. Observe and report.

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Observe and report.

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It's kind of the mine.

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most ignorance. mean, you guys are reminding me a of Bitcoin Uncensored, where they

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just slowly and carefully built their own vocabulary

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over each episode.

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And they just had like a little inside joke for like every word.

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And that, I kinda see you guys as doing that.

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And that is the creation of a new credentialed

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You know, it's a good forming of a new discipline in science.

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It's like, you know, how like they had physics and they had particle physics, large body physics, quantum physics, you know, and then they have biology and then they had like biochem, you know, so this is like a new branch on the tree of knowledge.

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And it definitely should be commented on because like Bitcoin is the super important project and yet the like the way that information gets around is unbelievably like now it's just lowest common denominator slop as you put it just that's what people want like people want I saw everyone at Las Vegas after Ross Ulbricht spoke

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I know after Saylor spoke, Ross Ulbrich was going to be on last,

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and then all these people were just walking out.

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They don't want to hear from Ross, who actually might know something,

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but they want to hear from Saylor and his AI slides.

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And then, where are they going?

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They've got somewhere to be?

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Where are all these people going?

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Are they going to hit the food court or something?

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It's baffling, but...

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I actually, I have some questions.

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so you guys have been posting PlevSlot memes for...

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Oh, it's been at least a month, right?

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And it seems like over the past three or four days,

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I'm going talk

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that asked

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you, Michael, was it that inspired you

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to finally ask that question?

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you already seen Pled Slop in the month before?

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I like to think that I'm the courageous one to ask the questions that everyone's too

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afraid to ask.

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Ironically, I've probably got the most comments and engagement on that tweet that I've had probably since I've had a Twitter account, which is kind of weird.

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Maybe, maybe not. Like, if you go like years, years back, I actually had a previous Twitter account that I deleted.

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Maybe there's some chains there.

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But I think for this account, this is probably the highest.

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I've gotten, which is of funny.

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Anyways, yeah, I'm just here asking the questions that no one's going to ask and

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hopefully we all learn from it.

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but PlipSlop is like this, AI, it's like AI slop.

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It's like low, it's like put a lot of, you don't put a lot of effort into your message

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and you wanna hit like a lot of people and you don't care if they're just, if you hit

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like 10,000 idiots.

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But that's not, I don't think that's not really what Plebslop is, cause I think memes,

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low effort memes that conveyed a strong message, I think were not

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not necessarily considered plebslopped in the past, you know what mean?

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So I think it's a unique, special kind of low IQ, purposely.

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I think you can have a low effort, strong message in it not be plebslopped,

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but it's, I don't know.

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Yeah, you target the low, think is my understanding.

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It's like you're targeting the, you kind of at the expense of the, at the expense of

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someone who's actually knows something, you say,

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it's not true, but we'll just say it.

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It's also an indicator of our society.

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I've,

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think there's like this new conspiracy confirmed theory where it's like TV shows

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purposely have to make the plot and the concepts of the show not

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too complicated because the demographics of said TV show, it's assumed that your

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viewers are gonna be on their phones.

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So you can't make the TV show too complicated because we understand our demographic is

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going to be on their phones the whole time.

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So it's just.

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Yeah, that's not.

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That's different though, think, right?

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think overall... memes can't too complicated now.

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Let's let our guests get a word in, if they want.

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Gentlemen, Mr. Bugle, I just see people on mute

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and I think they want to say something.

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So you guys are arguing about the definition of plop-slop?

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I suppose.

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I think it's different from...

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The fact that people don't have as much, like there's more media now, so you can't do something that's slow.

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Like I

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posted about some songs, like some songs have like a slow opening

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actually, but people wouldn't have the patience for that if you created a song like that now, like In The Air Tonight, or

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even like Beethoven's Ninth, like would people even make it to like the first, because the

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the song doesn't really start until like 50 seconds in.

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But that was my point about talking about the TV shows having to be dumbed because

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people are going to lose interest if it's, you know,

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it's the same thing I was trying to convey.

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But I think that's different, it's like you just need a good hook, because people are

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busy and they've got a lot of options.

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So that's different from plebslop, I think.

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Plebslop is when you intentionally, like you're serving the devil, and you're saying, I want

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to dumb everyone down.

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Well, Richard is riding the plebslop standard, which is like a pretty in-depth,

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study analysis. But when Michael Tidwell asked a question, my response was plebslap is a vector

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because it's kind of unique to your experience and Mike's explanation I think is kind of getting

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to it. I came up with the term and it was, I was thinking about the

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The approach to this debate is no debate, and some of these are complex problems that go much further than any code, right?

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It's like, how do you keep spam, quote-unquote, out of Bitcoin?

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And the answers from the not side, you know, the filters to this slot fork, Matthew Cratter's videos, it was all this simplistic, dumbed down,

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fiction type approach to solving a complex problem.

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they were throwing plebslap at the problem and you can't solve a problem that is

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complex in nature and nuanced in nature with plebslap

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solutions. in this fork becomes this plan activated slop fork.

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that kind of evolves from the fact that we have this complex solution, like all these

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cord ends, no, like they claim they don't want

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They don't like spam, but they've been trying to solve the problem for years and trying

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to come up with a way to do it, to mitigate spam without making too many trade-offs.

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And then, you know, like Leroy Jenkins comes in and just goes, you know, I'm going in and

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just throws plebslop, an ocean of plebslop at the problem.

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And that's kind of where the term came in my mind.

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That's interesting. So to be clear, you guys are just the first people who posted about plebslop, right? But much like Bitcoin, plebslop is the meme, is decentralized, right? So there's lots of people posting it now. There's lots of people redefining it and recontextualizing it.

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I shared a post in the nest of a Twitter user named Raybon, and he made a meme book cover of the book The Big Print by Lawrence Levin.

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leopard uh like the big slop or something like that and um Lawrence leopard himself

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reposted it and he he took a lot of offense to it and there was tons of people in his

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comments also like oh

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you guys aren't funny.

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this is, this is, this, there's some things you shouldn't joke about.

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so my question to you guys, you know, as the progenitors of Pledslop, you know, is it

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meant to be pejorative in your eyes?

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Well, it's... Go ahead.

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Yeah, I mean, I don't think so. I think...

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You know, there's a lot of people that are proud to be plebs.

233
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And that's fine. I mean, that's a sign of humility, you know.

234
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What does it mean to be a pleb? Pleb means that you're kind of dumb.

235
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You know, and as we all know, there's a very large amount of dumb people in our society.

236
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It's the majority of people are fairly dumb, whether it's a lack of intelligence or

237
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it's just like a lack of awareness or lack of willingness to

238
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become educated

239
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And I a

240
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I think a I thing.

241
00:20:20,510 --> 00:20:24,110
You know, in a lot of circumstances, it's fairly harmless.

242
00:20:25,810 --> 00:20:30,710
But there is a point where plebslop becomes weaponized.

243
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And so, the point of defining it

244
00:20:37,310 --> 00:20:40,210
is not to make the plebs feel bad about themselves

245
00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:43,210
or not to, you know, make the slop dealers

246
00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:46,410
feel bad about themselves, but it's just to

247
00:20:46,942 --> 00:20:52,822
clearly showcase what is happening right now because I think a lot of people are

248
00:20:52,822 --> 00:20:57,862
unfortunately doing is they're they're operating with understand without

249
00:20:57,862 --> 00:21:04,022
understanding what the playbook that is being used is and you know my goal in

250
00:21:04,022 --> 00:21:09,582
this is just to you know to clearly show the you know like when when Matt O'Dell

251
00:21:09,582 --> 00:21:12,254
tweets bitcoins going up

252
00:21:12,254 --> 00:21:18,454
Or the price is going to go much higher, whatever his plebslop tweet is from the 1031 account.

253
00:21:20,454 --> 00:21:23,754
That really has no negative effect on anything.

254
00:21:24,954 --> 00:21:25,454
You know what I mean?

255
00:21:25,454 --> 00:21:31,054
Like that's a perfect example of harmless, you know, good-natured plebslop.

256
00:21:32,154 --> 00:21:33,254
But when...

257
00:21:35,462 --> 00:21:37,842
You know, somebody says, like when Luke Dash Jr.

258
00:21:37,842 --> 00:21:42,542
says that Shinobi has a girlfriend, or a mechanic says that Bitcoin

259
00:21:43,102 --> 00:21:50,542
developers can't have sex, like that, that's a form of weaponized plebslop

260
00:21:50,542 --> 00:21:57,142
that, that does have negative impacts because it activates the pleb to become

261
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angry.

262
00:21:58,398 --> 00:22:01,318
and to direct their anger at others.

263
00:22:03,118 --> 00:22:10,438
And I just want people to be a bit more aware of what is happening.

264
00:22:10,438 --> 00:22:15,478
I want the plebs to just be a little bit more aware of how they're being used as cannon fodder.

265
00:22:17,198 --> 00:22:21,278
I think also, you know, kind of defining clearly what a pleb is.

266
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you know, and some of the dynamics at play here, you know, because why has the term pleb been

267
00:22:28,670 --> 00:22:36,190
championed and celebrated in this ecosystem? It's been championed and celebrated because,

268
00:22:36,910 --> 00:22:43,150
you know, people have trinkets to sell to the plebs. And so when you create a

269
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You know, clear marketing base and an activated marketing base, you know, and you don't have a very compelling product, but you want it to be differentiated from services like Coinbase or, you know, other ones, you don't really have anything to offer other than, you know, maybe some superficial virtue signals, having, you know, you know, the celebration of your potential

270
00:23:12,006 --> 00:23:15,006
market audience to sell trinkets to

271
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is incredibly useful from a marketing standpoint

272
00:23:19,006 --> 00:23:23,006
because you can get the plebs all excited about your mediocre product,

273
00:23:23,006 --> 00:23:27,006
you can get them buying, it's just free, it's free marketing

274
00:23:27,006 --> 00:23:30,006
and you know one thing that the plebs love

275
00:23:30,006 --> 00:23:36,006
is they love to feel like they're doing something without actually doing anything

276
00:23:36,006 --> 00:23:38,006
and you know

277
00:23:38,014 --> 00:23:57,454
The slop, you know, really in the weaponized slop allows for that, you know, the, the plebs have the opportunity to, you know, actually become like, I like to use the term pioneer, but it's just, it might not be the best term, but I think it's a, it's a useful term in this context, because

278
00:23:59,078 --> 00:24:03,478
In many ways, individuals that have been interacting with this technology and

279
00:24:03,478 --> 00:24:07,518
actually using their brains and contributing in a meaningful way are

280
00:24:07,518 --> 00:24:12,278
kind of like the old pioneers that settled the West and set the tone for

281
00:24:12,278 --> 00:24:19,838
the future of the Western United States and really built and developed these

282
00:24:19,838 --> 00:24:21,398
wild areas.

283
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:26,630
you know, for future generations, set the tone.

284
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:34,110
And there are many pioneers and they're feeling isolated.

285
00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:38,510
They're feeling drowned out in a sea of plebs slob.

286
00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:40,750
So I think defining it is helpful.

287
00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:47,670
And also, you know, it acts as, you know, when you label something as plebs

288
00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:49,950
slop, it's just, it's context.

289
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:55,990
order to be able to promote other things that are a little bit more thought out

290
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:58,610
than usual, I think.

291
00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:02,150
Thanks for sharing that.

292
00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:03,822
And so

293
00:25:03,862 --> 00:25:09,682
it seems that you're not necessarily trying to campaign in any one

294
00:25:09,682 --> 00:25:15,382
direction. For example, some people on Twitter already have suggested that Plubslop

295
00:25:15,382 --> 00:25:17,214
is a PSYOP or

296
00:25:17,214 --> 00:25:29,774
or coordinated effort. And from what you're expressing, it sounds like more of a organic kind of idea about some of your own frustrations and aspirations after having been a part of Bitcoin for however long.

297
00:25:31,338 --> 00:25:33,498
Absolutely. wanted, go ahead.

298
00:25:34,038 --> 00:25:40,018
Yeah, I was just gonna say, the importance here, before I forget, Paul mentioned

299
00:25:40,018 --> 00:25:45,818
the lexicon that we're building and that is all documented at buglevorce.com

300
00:25:45,818 --> 00:25:46,478
and there's a

301
00:25:46,547 --> 00:25:49,927
Buglevorce Twitter account as well.

302
00:25:50,847 --> 00:25:55,787
It's like a catalog of all the music, the memes, all the words, all the terms, Maxi

303
00:25:55,787 --> 00:25:58,367
Madness to any Bitcoins, Payto per Bitcoin, etc.

304
00:26:00,067 --> 00:26:02,857
Kaleb's lot, one of the recent song, it's like

305
00:26:02,897 --> 00:26:08,857
pins at the top of my profile right now, the chorus is the plebslop in me is

306
00:26:08,857 --> 00:26:10,037
the plebslop in you.

307
00:26:10,357 --> 00:26:15,637
I think everybody's got a different view, a different perspective about plebslop.

308
00:26:16,217 --> 00:26:19,166
But what I think is most important about it, least right

309
00:26:19,166 --> 00:26:22,966
Right now is the self-awareness.

310
00:26:23,266 --> 00:26:29,666
To me, the biggest thing lacking in the Bitcoin ecosystem broadly is self-awareness.

311
00:26:29,666 --> 00:26:33,066
Everybody takes themselves so seriously.

312
00:26:33,066 --> 00:26:35,466
They think that they are saving the world.

313
00:26:35,766 --> 00:26:39,366
And in some sense, Bitcoin is saving the world.

314
00:26:39,366 --> 00:26:40,666
It is fixing things.

315
00:26:40,666 --> 00:26:42,966
It has the potential to fix a lot of things.

316
00:26:42,966 --> 00:26:44,066
But...

317
00:26:44,478 --> 00:26:49,958
Lawrence Lepard is a good example. He saw his book, that was probably like the

318
00:26:49,958 --> 00:26:54,478
fourth or fifth different book, that famous Bitcoin book that was repurposed

319
00:26:54,478 --> 00:26:59,318
and memed for plebslop in the name, and he didn't see that. He saw, he thought

320
00:26:59,318 --> 00:27:05,918
somebody was calling his book slop and he freaked out. And it's just this

321
00:27:05,918 --> 00:27:10,798
lack of self-awareness, this lack of ability to joke around and to have fun.

322
00:27:10,798 --> 00:27:12,478
HGX is in.

323
00:27:12,478 --> 00:27:18,398
And the audience right now, and him and Raybon and a few others, they got the meme hashtag,

324
00:27:18,398 --> 00:27:19,398
we know.

325
00:27:19,398 --> 00:27:26,478
And to me, it means, you know, Bitcoin is a very serious innovation.

326
00:27:26,478 --> 00:27:27,798
It's a great technology.

327
00:27:27,798 --> 00:27:32,078
It has the potential to free many people.

328
00:27:32,078 --> 00:27:33,218
We know.

329
00:27:33,218 --> 00:27:37,278
If you're on Bitcoin Twitter every day, like us, we know Bitcoin is important.

330
00:27:38,042 --> 00:27:40,382
but it's the you still have to have fun.

331
00:27:40,502 --> 00:27:41,722
still have to have a critique.

332
00:27:41,782 --> 00:27:46,182
You still have that sense of humor and Plebslaff has just had some fucking self

333
00:27:46,182 --> 00:27:46,542
-awareness.

334
00:27:50,282 --> 00:27:53,982
Yeah, definitely seems to be lot of self -seriousness.

335
00:27:55,242 --> 00:27:56,302
an ego of learning.

336
00:27:57,150 --> 00:28:08,150
I agree, I like that. I think it's also like if people can't have a sense of humor, it's like they must be really insecure and they must really think Bitcoin is very fragile, actually.

337
00:28:08,150 --> 00:28:21,150
And they must think like, it's just a big opinion. And if, you know, it's like Tinkerbell. And if we all believe in it, it will work. But if there's any doubt, it will all just collapse and fall apart.

338
00:28:21,150 --> 00:28:23,150
And so I think they actually have a very

339
00:28:23,742 --> 00:28:40,742
Poor understanding of Bitcoin, and they don't realize that they believe that it's actually very fragile and don't even believe it about themselves, so that's the lack of self-awareness, but that's what they think, they just don't realize it, they think that.

340
00:28:42,742 --> 00:28:45,742
And another aspect to it.

341
00:28:45,982 --> 00:29:13,982
is plebslop is like this condensed, it's all that, plebslop is so much information, all these books we've read, the 40 hours of Bitcoin podcast we've been listening to for years, the white paper we read, all of the different game theory scenarios we played out in the group chats, it coalesces into what you can fit into, in all caps, breaking tweet, blah, blah, blah, so-and-so's buying

342
00:29:14,102 --> 00:29:15,942
Bitcoin, the institutions are coming.

343
00:29:16,802 --> 00:29:22,782
so when you have a timeline that is pure unadulter plebslop and there's really no

344
00:29:22,782 --> 00:29:26,102
other signal in there, what it signals to me is

345
00:29:26,158 --> 00:29:27,318
that people have stopped

346
00:29:29,678 --> 00:29:35,258
thinking critically, they've stopped thinking, coming up with new ideas, they've

347
00:29:35,258 --> 00:29:38,334
stopped building, they've stopped because new

348
00:29:38,334 --> 00:29:57,214
New ideas, new complex ideas, new solutions are very difficult sometimes, oftentimes, to communicate, to articulate to other people, and it's very difficult to try to get it out of your mind and onto, you know, a spec for software or a new

349
00:29:57,842 --> 00:30:01,202
I'm not sure what happened there, guys. I kind of lost audio, and then it dropped.

350
00:30:05,042 --> 00:30:05,542
Cool.

351
00:30:12,642 --> 00:30:16,641
We'll wait for Paul and Michael to come back in here.

352
00:30:27,842 --> 00:30:41,522
Oh, it seems to have crashed, but maybe it's back.

353
00:30:42,961 --> 00:30:49,202
Not sure what happened that time, but I'm not sure if you guys heard the last thing I was saying.

354
00:30:49,202 --> 00:30:53,682
I was saying let's move into a speed round of plebslop or not plebslop. Did you guys hear that part?

355
00:30:54,562 --> 00:30:55,062
No.

356
00:30:55,062 --> 00:31:02,562
No. I think Bugle was talking, and he got cut off mid-conversation is what I heard.

357
00:31:02,562 --> 00:31:06,562
Okay. Sorry about that, guys.

358
00:31:06,562 --> 00:31:20,562
On some of what I was saying, which was when the timeline is full of plebslop, it's a fact that nobody's thinking of new ideas, new solutions, because those are complex. Those are hard to communicate. Those are hard to articulate.

359
00:31:20,642 --> 00:31:32,962
It's a struggle. It is a struggle to take a good idea, a new idea, and get it out there and make it valuable.

360
00:31:32,962 --> 00:31:38,562
So if everybody's spewing plebslop, it's just everything's been said already. There's nothing new to hear.

361
00:31:38,562 --> 00:31:58,562
I think it is the case that there's not a lot of novelty in the space, because there is nowhere to go once you just declare everything to be running a shitcoin.

362
00:31:58,562 --> 00:32:10,562
So every direction of progress has been kind of walled off in a marketing sense, not literally, but people don't ...

363
00:32:10,562 --> 00:32:24,562
Imagine that you join Bitcoin. It was very different in 2014, for example. People would join Bitcoin, and they'd say, I love Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the best. What should I do? And there were all these things you could do.

364
00:32:24,562 --> 00:32:40,562
There was actually a lot more opportunity to get a job, work in customer service for an exchange, or work for BitPay, or try to work as a dev, try to work for whatever, Blockstream, etc.

365
00:32:40,562 --> 00:32:45,562
Plenty of people were doing meetups. Plenty of people would go around and try to get merchants to accept Bitcoin.

366
00:32:45,562 --> 00:33:09,562
So actually, there were more things to do, but now if someone joins, they're just told, don't tinker with the tech, don't try to get people to use the tech, don't advocate for any idea, because if you do, then that's bad, apparently.

367
00:33:09,562 --> 00:33:35,562
So yeah, I don't know. I think that has created this weird media environment where only a few types of message are possible. And when everyone's growing, space is growing at a rapid rate, most of the people will be new at any given point in time.

368
00:33:36,562 --> 00:33:42,562
So when 90% of the audience has only been there for one year, that could be the case over and over again for many years.

369
00:33:43,562 --> 00:34:00,562
Yeah, and that is the case. It feels like all the new people are kind of funneled into paper Bitcoin. It's like the paper Bitcoin, plop, slop.

370
00:34:00,562 --> 00:34:21,562
Because there really isn't a whole lot of interesting conversations taking place any longer, you know, so to speak, on layer one, or just about Bitcoin in general, everything's kind of moved to Wall Street, paper Bitcoin to the myriad of layer twos, most of which are vaporware still.

371
00:34:22,562 --> 00:34:36,562
And then the only real layer two you've got is lightning. But, you know, this UTXO set yesterday that lightning is plop slop as well. And it's getting harder and harder to argue against that.

372
00:34:36,562 --> 00:34:56,562
Well, yeah, I'm a well known skeptic of lightning. And in fact, Mike had me two weeks ago, at TapConf, and I debated the entire room about the premise being that the lightning network is a waste of time.

373
00:34:56,562 --> 00:35:11,562
And unfortunately, it is mostly powered by lies and lack of self awareness and people not not realizing what they are shilling and people can now the whole thing is up, people can watch it, I do 10 minutes of slides, and then a 50 minute q&a.

374
00:35:11,562 --> 00:35:30,562
And yeah, lightning is people don't even know what they're talking about when they when they say, Oh, I use lightning last week, and it worked. They don't even know people think like a zap, primal and nostril to nostril, primal to primal zap, they think that that uses the lightning network, but that's not true.

375
00:35:30,562 --> 00:35:48,562
People don't know the difference between custodial lightning and real lightning, which is I said the difference between a driverless Waymo and a Waymo that says it's driverless, but it has a guy in the car driving you around. So it's night and day. It's custodial is opposite of lightning.

376
00:35:48,562 --> 00:36:15,562
So, but the lightning meme has persisted because of for like religious and cult like reasons and because people are emotionally unable to face what they've done. And so they cannot, they just, you know, their shame and inner turmoil is just prevented them from owning up to their mistake and in simping for this idea for so long.

377
00:36:16,562 --> 00:36:39,562
And now we're all just stuck with it. And it does suck the air out of the conversation. Like now you can't even talk about how to scale Bitcoin, because it looks like lightning has that covered from the outside. So people would just say, Oh, are you working for lightning company, and then you have to fight the whole meme plex, which most people are unwilling to do, or not even able to do.

378
00:36:40,562 --> 00:37:05,562
I think, I think it's incorrect to say that lightning is scaling Bitcoin, because I think it's pretty apparent right now that paper Bitcoin is scaling Bitcoin. And, you know, Paul, I've known that. I think we all know that you've been promoting various, you know, ideas to, in your view, improve Bitcoin, make it more use, give it more use cases.

379
00:37:05,562 --> 00:37:34,562
It seems like you've lacked the proper deployment of plebs slop. So are you, you know, you've seen lightning being promoted with plebs slop, you've seen paper Bitcoin being promoted with plebs slop, you've seen knots being promoted with plebs slop, plebs slop all around, you know, now that you are seeing this, do you think it's time for you and LayerTwo Labs to deploy?

380
00:37:35,562 --> 00:37:36,562
Some plebs slop?

381
00:37:40,718 --> 00:37:46,458
deficient in lying to people, lying to the masses in like a convincing

382
00:37:46,458 --> 00:37:52,138
way. that's probably my responsibility, my fault as the

383
00:37:52,138 --> 00:37:55,098
CEO, guess the buck stops here,

384
00:37:56,478 --> 00:37:57,098
Satoshi stops

385
00:37:57,140 --> 00:38:02,840
here. my thought was we'll keep it highbrow and we'll that peer

386
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:08,060
review to make sure that we get all the actual thoughts

387
00:38:08,060 --> 00:38:12,960
and we get the, sorry, have re -approve this.

388
00:38:14,562 --> 00:38:37,561
And we have to get all the like, you know, get all the thoughts out there and get all the actual peer review and make sure the idea is as good as possible. I think you want to do that first. And then when you're really happy with the idea, and you think it's really perfect, then maybe you switch gears and you go into like a marketing mode. And you go like full plebs slop. That's like maybe how I would defend my my strategy.

389
00:38:38,561 --> 00:38:45,561
Well, do you feel like you have a fiduciary responsibility to your investors to deploy plebs slop?

390
00:38:45,561 --> 00:39:14,561
I think I have a strategy that it still maximizes the value to the investors, even without lying to people committing like in those huge industrial fraud, because that does come with risks, you know, you could end up as like a kind of Sam Bankman Freed or whatever, you know, if you go down that road, and then what are you like, as an example, I gave a TABConf was Theranos, where Theranos, they maximized shareholder value for like 14 years.

391
00:39:15,561 --> 00:39:29,561
But then it went to zero. So the question is, like, what, you know, the whole, the whole maximizing shareholder value thing, that's like trying to say, you know, you get the goal of the artist to paint a painting that has really good art.

392
00:39:30,561 --> 00:39:53,561
And it's like really good. It's like it's like a creative act. It's inseparably creative, but I think my strategy will in the long run, have the highest ROI, cumulative ROI over the over the amortized over the time period. So I still think it would be the best way to go.

393
00:39:54,561 --> 00:40:00,561
I'm clicking approve on this thing. And I don't know if it's not working or not. This, this app is so glitchy. Sometimes.

394
00:40:00,561 --> 00:40:05,561
It really is. I've also been trying to get people mechanic up here.

395
00:40:06,561 --> 00:40:24,561
When we did it like two years ago, I would, um, it would just like, I don't know, it would, it would crash, but it would do all kinds of weird other stuff where, yeah, my app would crash, it would like Google, like some kind of cash would fill up and it was just every time it would only make it like 40 minutes at a time.

396
00:40:24,561 --> 00:40:31,561
So we had to have co hosts and everything. So I don't know why. I don't know what you wanted to get on it, but

397
00:40:32,561 --> 00:40:45,561
And so, um, I did have something I wanted to do before crash last, uh, which I think would lend itself to your suggestion, Richard, uh, L2L deploying plebs flop and mass quantities.

398
00:40:46,561 --> 00:40:53,561
Um, and that's to help us make the distinction, uh, as the name of the space implies of what is plebs flop and what is not plebs flop.

399
00:40:53,561 --> 00:41:00,561
And so in the interest of keeping it in good fun, right, because we're not trying to be predorative, we would, I would request everybody's honest with the following.

400
00:41:00,561 --> 00:41:10,561
And what I want to do is a speed round where I will name a list of media publications, podcasts, books, public figures, and concepts and Bitcoin.

401
00:41:10,561 --> 00:41:21,561
And I would like that the speakers and potentially the audience as well, if you'd like to signal whether or not you think something is plebs flop, um, with a thumbs up or a thumbs down, and we'll just do a speed round.

402
00:41:22,561 --> 00:41:30,561
And of course, you know, if we've had a debate about, you know, maybe bugle mechanic thinks something is plebs flop and Richard doesn't, then we'll stop and we'll talk about it.

403
00:41:30,561 --> 00:41:33,561
And one way or another, we're going to, we're going to hone in on the definition.

404
00:41:33,561 --> 00:41:43,561
So we're going to start with some low hanging fruit and I just want everybody to chime in whenever with the first one being the Bitcoin standard by safety and almost plebs flop or not plebs flop.

405
00:41:44,561 --> 00:41:47,561
What, so thumbs up for yes, thumbs down for no.

406
00:41:47,561 --> 00:41:49,561
What if, what if it's a little bit of both?

407
00:41:50,561 --> 00:41:51,561
Then let's talk about it.

408
00:41:51,561 --> 00:41:52,561
Let's hear why.

409
00:41:53,561 --> 00:41:59,561
Well, yeah, he has like three chapters about Bitcoin and then he starts talking about how like Miley Cyrus is destroying society or whatever.

410
00:41:59,561 --> 00:42:02,561
And that there's been no good music written after 1971.

411
00:42:02,561 --> 00:42:07,561
And then you just kind of think like, okay, like, I guess that's what we're going with.

412
00:42:08,561 --> 00:42:10,561
We need to hear from Michael Tidwell.

413
00:42:10,561 --> 00:42:11,561
We need to hear from Michael Tidwell.

414
00:42:11,561 --> 00:42:15,561
I think he's trying to, trying to avoid the discussion.

415
00:42:15,561 --> 00:42:17,561
Let's hear what Michael Tidwell has to say.

416
00:42:17,561 --> 00:42:20,561
Bitcoin standard, plebs flop or not plebs flop?

417
00:42:21,561 --> 00:42:22,561
Plebs flop.

418
00:42:23,561 --> 00:42:24,561
Okay.

419
00:42:25,561 --> 00:42:27,561
Plebs flop, but also my, my app is kind of glitchy.

420
00:42:27,561 --> 00:42:30,561
It says Richard is like the only one talking right now.

421
00:42:30,561 --> 00:42:32,561
So I hope I can, I'm coming through.

422
00:42:33,561 --> 00:42:45,561
I definitely think, I have to say that, um, I think like safety and Amos overall is way, way more plebs flop, like as a person than his, his book has like some redeeming.

423
00:42:45,561 --> 00:42:58,561
I mean, there was like a market for a book, like everyone wanted like a book to put so that they could have it behind when they do like a zoom call or whatever, a podcast, they can have the book on the shelf behind them.

424
00:42:58,561 --> 00:43:04,561
And safety, and he knew that there was a market for that, that book, even if the book, like just the pages are blank or whatever.

425
00:43:04,561 --> 00:43:13,561
It's like I paid, it's like buying a shirt, you know, it's like you go into like a rock concert and you get a shirt and he knew that there was a niche for the book.

426
00:43:13,561 --> 00:43:15,561
And I think the book has some redeeming qualities.

427
00:43:15,561 --> 00:43:19,561
And I do respect anyone who produces a long piece of writing.

428
00:43:20,561 --> 00:43:34,561
And, uh, and so the book is sort of, but he, he, he has become like a complete, like, I mean, I don't, it's hard to know exactly what to say, but, um, yeah, he has just become like a, like, and it's very predictable.

429
00:43:34,561 --> 00:43:38,561
And he's very, like, he has very thin skin about ridiculous things.

430
00:43:39,561 --> 00:43:49,561
And, uh, like he did that, um, interview with the trigonometry guys is a perfect example, but it's easy.

431
00:43:49,561 --> 00:44:08,561
Very similarly, like Nassim Taleb, where you, some of his writings first come out, it's like some of the stuff's pretty interesting and he's got an interesting career, but it's like a slow devolved into plebs slot parody of the original author or the, like the original work.

432
00:44:09,561 --> 00:44:12,561
And it's with safe.

433
00:44:12,561 --> 00:44:26,561
It's, I hate to say this, but it seems like in the Austrian economics space, a lot of the new content that comes out or a lot of the content in general about Austrian economics is ultimately plebs slot.

434
00:44:26,561 --> 00:44:36,561
There hasn't been really any, in my opinion, like really good new thinking or, um, any type of writing on, on Austrian economics in quite a long time.

435
00:44:36,561 --> 00:44:43,561
And it's just a lot of people repeating, you know, Mises or Rothbardian plebs slot.

436
00:44:44,561 --> 00:45:01,561
That's an excellent point because one thing that really turned me off of Austrian economics, I got very interested, like most people, I got into it in around 2008 and I, I majored in economics in college and then I worked in economics research at like a very high level.

437
00:45:01,561 --> 00:45:14,561
But I, so I became interested in Austrian economics, but then I, one of the things that really started to annoy me was that the Austrian, you can go and you can go on like mises.org and you can look up year after year after year for like 40 years.

438
00:45:14,561 --> 00:45:16,561
And I have, I have the links.

439
00:45:16,561 --> 00:45:19,561
I had this all in a big post that I wrote in 2017 and never published it.

440
00:45:20,561 --> 00:45:22,561
Unfortunately, I have to bang it out one of these weekends.

441
00:45:22,561 --> 00:45:27,561
But the point is they complain about this obscure ordinal versus cardinal utility.

442
00:45:27,561 --> 00:45:32,561
And the Austrian economists say we use ordinal utility, which is correct.

443
00:45:32,561 --> 00:45:40,561
And the Keynesians or the whatever, neoclassical or mainstream economics, they use cardinal utility, which is wrong.

444
00:45:41,561 --> 00:45:43,561
But the problem with this is that this has never been true ever.

445
00:45:43,561 --> 00:45:50,561
And regular econ, even when I was an undergrad, freshman year, used ordinal utility.

446
00:45:50,561 --> 00:46:00,561
And this is not really, you know, it's kind of an obscure point, but just the idea that for like 40 or 50 years that you would be, and there's link after link after link.

447
00:46:00,561 --> 00:46:08,561
You can find it on, if you just search it on mises.org, whatever, you can see people complaining about this year after year after year.

448
00:46:08,561 --> 00:46:13,561
And no one has ever like tapped them on the shoulder and told them that they're just wrong.

449
00:46:13,561 --> 00:46:18,561
And even Brian Kaplan wrote an essay called Why I'm Not an Austrian Economist Anymore.

450
00:46:18,561 --> 00:46:20,561
And he has this in his essay.

451
00:46:20,561 --> 00:46:25,561
And this is like years after his essays, 10 years after his essay, 15 years after his essay.

452
00:46:25,561 --> 00:46:31,561
Still, they are the ones who bring it up, the Austrians, who say they make a big deal about this.

453
00:46:31,561 --> 00:46:35,561
But it's just flatly 100% wrong.

454
00:46:37,561 --> 00:46:44,561
And you just kind of think like, what is going wrong in this culture that it is locked?

455
00:46:44,561 --> 00:46:48,561
It's just remained where Rothbard and Mises left it.

456
00:46:48,561 --> 00:46:50,561
And that is sad.

457
00:46:50,561 --> 00:46:52,561
Yeah, Austrian economics ossified.

458
00:46:55,561 --> 00:46:58,561
Right, ossified Austrian economics.

459
00:46:58,561 --> 00:47:03,561
I think we got – Michael and Richard want to say something, and then we'll jump to the next topic.

460
00:47:05,561 --> 00:47:13,561
I think it's ironic that the Austrian economic sephardin doesn't like ordinals in any respect.

461
00:47:13,561 --> 00:47:22,561
But then apparently Austrian economists subscribe to ordinal theory when it comes to cardinal versus ordinal utility is what I'm hearing.

462
00:47:23,561 --> 00:47:31,561
I also wanted to say that I think sephardin for this first question kind of has a bad –

463
00:47:31,561 --> 00:47:41,561
like it's not kind of fair because his interaction with BU was so bad and was so sort of like damning, in my opinion,

464
00:47:41,561 --> 00:47:47,561
in terms of being able to take him seriously that it's hard for me to give him a fair shake.

465
00:47:47,561 --> 00:47:52,561
Just because he had a really bad performance on BU, and it was very, very funny.

466
00:47:52,561 --> 00:47:53,561
That doesn't make any sense, Mike.

467
00:47:53,561 --> 00:48:04,561
You're saying because of his performance as an intellectual and book author defending his work in a conversation on an interview?

468
00:48:04,561 --> 00:48:05,561
That's unfair?

469
00:48:05,561 --> 00:48:08,561
Wouldn't that be like exactly how you should form your opinion?

470
00:48:08,561 --> 00:48:11,561
No, no, but what I'm saying is I didn't even read the book.

471
00:48:11,561 --> 00:48:18,561
So that's why it's unfair because I didn't even give his book a chance because of his – because I couldn't take him seriously as a person.

472
00:48:18,561 --> 00:48:23,561
So I'm not really able to answer the question in good faith.

473
00:48:23,561 --> 00:48:28,561
I'm just – that's what I'm trying to – I'm trying to caveat that it's sort of a – yeah.

474
00:48:28,561 --> 00:48:31,561
You should have just went with the safe answer and said that not plebslop.

475
00:48:31,561 --> 00:48:34,561
We already got you on record saying sephardin almost is plebslop.

476
00:48:35,561 --> 00:48:40,561
Well, I think the safe answer is saying it's plebslop in my opinion.

477
00:48:40,561 --> 00:48:41,561
Always.

478
00:48:41,561 --> 00:48:44,561
I think Richard has something to say, and then we'll jump to the next one.

479
00:48:44,561 --> 00:48:51,561
Yeah, I just wanted to say real quick I also agree that the Bitcoin standard is plebslop.

480
00:48:51,561 --> 00:49:04,561
I think in a lot of circumstances though for a lot of individuals it is helpful plebslop because sometimes plebslop is like the gateway drug into just more thought out thinking.

481
00:49:04,561 --> 00:49:11,561
Austrian economics is kind of like a failed meme gang in a lot of ways, economic meme gang.

482
00:49:11,561 --> 00:49:16,561
There's some aspects of it that I like and appreciate.

483
00:49:17,561 --> 00:49:38,561
But I think it's just whenever anybody starts to come up with these labels for some sort of collective group thinking with tenants and dogma, it kind of becomes problematic and quickly devolves into just low signal plebslop.

484
00:49:38,561 --> 00:49:57,561
I do appreciate the Bitcoin standard to some degree as a tolerable form of plebslop, but it is interesting to see how kind of the cognitive dissonance around.

485
00:49:58,667 --> 00:50:06,367
The Austrian supporting ordinal theory, but at the same time, you know, being upset at Casey wrote a more.

486
00:50:08,367 --> 00:50:15,067
Awesome. All right. That's a good segue into the next topic. Ordinals, plebslop or not plebslop?

487
00:50:20,667 --> 00:50:24,267
It's a good question. I think since people are having fun and they mostly just.

488
00:50:25,267 --> 00:50:27,867
They know that they're just having fun and they're just doing something.

489
00:50:29,067 --> 00:50:30,167
That is a little new.

490
00:50:31,466 --> 00:50:33,867
I'm going to have to go with somehow not plebslop.

491
00:50:35,867 --> 00:50:45,466
I'm going with I'm going with good plebslop since bugle mechanic was saying or Richard, whoever.

492
00:50:46,466 --> 00:51:05,667
Was saying there's, you know, not all plebslop has to be harmful and bad and and it could be a gateway to taking you other places. I think ordinals is a clear vehicle for that. It's something that's sort of silly. It's a meta protocol. You can't stop it. And it really, if anything, exposed how retarded.

493
00:51:06,667 --> 00:51:31,667
You know, our peers are saying that this is a bad idea. It's almost like it's harmless plebslop and you're almost treating it like the devil. And it's really telling like what you kind of conceptually can understand about meta protocols that can be in people's minds and how you think that can attack Bitcoin. And I think it was very, it was like a very useful plebslop thing to expose, like kind of how dumb a lot of people were.

494
00:51:32,667 --> 00:51:53,667
So I consider it plebslop through and through, but it's like a fun, harmless plebslop that can be a gateway to actually teach you how to use Bitcoin and how sats work and all sorts of things about Bitcoin scripting and all kinds of cool stuff. So I think it's ultimately a gateway plebslop thing to be harmless.

495
00:51:54,667 --> 00:52:17,667
The, the idea, like TC's idea and like putting it together, like the, when you say is ordinals plebslop, I would say no. And I kind of agree with Michael. I think a lot of the ordinals inscriptions, like 99% of them that came as a result are plebslop. Some of them harmful, some not, but like the higher level concept, I would not consider plebslop.

496
00:52:17,667 --> 00:52:44,667
And I think it probably was really helpful to a lot of people to understanding Bitcoin better, to helping the Bitcoin community understand it better. And it got a lot of people writing notes and like actually using Bitcoin. We went to the spamming Vegas ordinals side conference and it was people using Bitcoin, people not talking about paper Bitcoin, people not simping politicians. So I think it was, it's definitely not plebslop.

497
00:52:47,667 --> 00:52:54,667
Awesome. So speaking of protocols, metaprotocols, lightning network, plebslop, not plebslop.

498
00:52:54,667 --> 00:53:23,667
I like some aspects of lightning or plebslop. And I think some are like, there's some individuals using it or attempting to use it in interesting ways. But you think of like what's commonly promoted, like, you know, Wallace Satoshi, custodial lightning products in general, it's, it's pretty sloppy to say the least.

499
00:53:24,667 --> 00:53:41,667
But what is strange about lightning and the transition that I've seen recently is it seems like the purpose of the lightning network is to act as stable coin rails and try and compete with Ethereum and Tron.

500
00:53:41,667 --> 00:53:59,667
So that seems to be the new use case that individuals are excited about. And that feels a bit sloppy to me. But I use the lightning network and I appreciate it to some extent.

501
00:54:00,667 --> 00:54:11,667
It's, it's a good way to transact for like, I mean, it's kind of pain in the ass if you're if you're selling loosey cigarettes to use on chain. So lightning is kind of useful in that regard.

502
00:54:11,667 --> 00:54:40,667
I, Paul, I'll go and then I'll hand it off. I would say lightning clearly to me is not plebslop. There, I would actually be interested if anyone can convince me it is. I would say there's a lot of things around lightning that could be considered pretty sloppy, including a lot of the narrative that was captured by the community.

503
00:54:41,667 --> 00:55:05,667
By quote unquote, plebs, and you could almost see the pleb movement, really starting in Bitcoin, like and really becoming like apex pleb, you know, era during the pleb net lightning, everyone run a node, everyone run lightning, open up these channels and lose money on lightning, you know, because these channels are forced closing and no one understands the software, blah, blah, blah.

504
00:55:06,667 --> 00:55:31,667
I think you can say a lot of that was sloppy and owned also by the plebs. I mean, you could honestly say lightning started the plebslop movement in terms of people self identifying in mass as plebs, and doing, I guess you could say sloppy sort of narrative control over lightning saving, you know, the human race and scaling Bitcoin.

505
00:55:32,667 --> 00:55:58,667
But I think it would be hard for you to convince me that the technology itself, without including the narrative and how that was captured is plebslop. I would say lightning clearly to me is not plebslop. It's a very interesting technology and works very, very well for B2B, and potentially in the future B2C, and it was sold as a complete peer to peer, you know, B2C, C2C, whatever, like out of the box kind of thing. I understand that.

506
00:55:58,667 --> 00:56:19,667
However, for anyone who used lightning early, and actually try to make a business out of it, it was pretty clear that was not going to be the case. And I've been working on lightning since like 2019. So I've been through like a lot of the pain points of it. So I kind of would be interested if someone can convince me it was plebslop, because I would say it is not.

507
00:56:20,667 --> 00:56:44,667
I mean, I definitely think that it is. And I think B2B, I would almost say there is no way to use Bitcoin or lightning B2B at all, because everyone has a mailing address. And you can just bill each other. And you're in like the same legal framework already. So saying that something is good for B2B and Bitcoin is just another way of saying that it doesn't work. And it should just be burned to the ground.

508
00:56:45,667 --> 00:57:04,667
But the issue is this, like in most people's minds, if you had a big group of Bitcoin, or a big group of people, when they hear the word lightning, they have an idea in their head. And that idea is just a bunch of nonsense. And so in that sense, I think it's absolutely plebslop.

509
00:57:05,667 --> 00:57:15,667
It's the idea in their head isn't even accurate. And even if it was, it's just it's just the Bitcoin is hope AI image. It's not anything. It has no substance.

510
00:57:18,667 --> 00:57:19,667
Go ahead, Mike.

511
00:57:19,667 --> 00:57:43,667
All right, so let me let me ask a clarification question. You said it's like pretty much anything can be used B2B. It's not really Bitcoin, but businesses use Bitcoin. I mean, you can send layer one Bitcoin, you can do whatever you want with. Are you trying to say any business that has agreements with each other? Bitcoin has no use case. I'm just trying to understand.

512
00:57:44,667 --> 00:58:06,667
I'm saying it's not quite relevant. There's already an L2. When you're in the legal world, you're already on like an L3 or an L plus one or whatever you want to call it. Like you're already in a world where you can have like the bar tab. You're in the trust envelope. But Bitcoin is not designed to do that. Bitcoin is designed for people who don't trust each other.

513
00:58:07,667 --> 00:58:33,667
And who don't have maybe they don't have they don't know each other's names or locations. That is the like design of Bitcoin. And the inherently it comes with a strategy for surviving and succeeding, which is to install itself in dark and gray markets to some extent, and also be compatible with the normal everyday markets.

514
00:58:33,667 --> 00:58:58,667
Like an equal footing. So it's equal footing, but making it inroad, specializing inroad in the dark. And with the goal that regular people would decide, well, if I have US dollar, it works for XYZ. And but if I have Bitcoin, it works for XYZ. And it also works for these dark net type things.

515
00:58:58,667 --> 00:59:25,667
And even if I don't use that myself, maybe one of my trading partners or friend of a friend of a friend, maybe they do. And so maybe it's better for me to just pick the one that is not constrained as a medium of exchange, it will have a superior network effect. I think all that is like inherent in the design of Bitcoin, like from the start, and I don't I don't know if it's possible to see it another way without entering into a contradiction.

516
00:59:26,667 --> 00:59:51,667
Hey, guys, not to cut you off, but I'm we'll get bugle on lightning. But we know that this is a subject that we could probably talk about for hours. And this is a good time to plug TapConf. If you guys want to see Paul's thoughts in detail on the lightning network and its failures, go ahead and check out the TapConf Twitter page. And you can watch the entire rotating debate panel where he talks to a bunch of lightning developers and expresses his thoughts. But Bugle, pass it over to you.

517
00:59:52,667 --> 01:00:10,667
Yeah, I have to jump after this, but I just wanted to come in and say, like, Paul, he's talking about how, like, the way people are using lightning is not how Bitcoin is kind of like what it was built for. And to some extent, that's true. But it's kind of like a Zempik.

518
01:00:10,667 --> 01:00:38,667
Zempik was not built for weight loss, and we already have solutions for weight loss. You can diet, exercise, self-discipline, but those suck. And Zempik works to help people lose weight. It's so much easier and faster, but it's an off-label use case. So Bitcoin was designed to be a very specific thing and to solve this very specific problem. But we found out that it's also useful for zapping your friend's plebs lump.

519
01:00:38,667 --> 01:00:46,667
And I think that means that it doesn't necessarily mean that it just failed. I think it's just an off-label use case.

520
01:00:49,667 --> 01:01:02,667
Awesome. Okay, we'll get one more in before you jump, and then we can maybe take it to the audience and have some people come up and start sharing their thoughts, because a lot of people in there are requesting. So last one would be Michael Saylor, plebslop or not plebslop?

521
01:01:03,667 --> 01:01:05,667
I mean, I say yes, certainly.

522
01:01:07,667 --> 01:01:08,667
Yes, for sure.

523
01:01:09,667 --> 01:01:23,667
He's very new, and he often doesn't have any idea. No offense, but he has no idea what he's talking about. Often, and then you notice he doesn't even weigh in on any. He's not there to lead us into the future with his ideas. So it's all fake.

524
01:01:24,667 --> 01:01:29,667
Okay, looks like we lost Bitcoin mechanic, or Google mechanic, but continue.

525
01:01:30,667 --> 01:01:53,667
The one thing that struck me recently, or this year, was when he responded to someone saying that divulging their funds on-chain would be a security risk to them. And there might be various reasons why they wouldn't want to divulge their on-chain address, or trading reasons, or whatever reasons.

526
01:01:54,667 --> 01:02:11,667
But the security reason alone, I think, was a plebslop answer that people ate up, and it was just totally incorrect. So I would say plebslop situations, aggregate, some may come to be plebslop.

527
01:02:12,667 --> 01:02:22,667
It's kind of like saying that closed-source wallets are safer, because it's harder to find the exploits in them, because the code isn't viewable.

528
01:02:23,667 --> 01:02:43,667
All right, so I think that we've come a little bit closer to a definition of plebslop after that round. We lost one of our speakers, and we've been running for about an hour now. And if you guys like, now is a good time to request to speak if you have any thoughts that you would like to share on plebslop.

529
01:02:43,667 --> 01:02:50,667
Perhaps sharing your own definitions. And if no one comes up to speak, I suppose we can wrap it up.

530
01:02:56,667 --> 01:03:05,667
See, we have Jameson Lopp in the audience. It's quite a lightning round of controversy lately. Perhaps you'd like to come up and share some of your thoughts on plebslop.

531
01:03:06,667 --> 01:03:17,667
I saw the Peter, Todd, and Jameson versus Luke and Mechanic. It was pretty entertaining. I don't know who's being convinced of what.

532
01:03:18,667 --> 01:03:31,667
It's sad that we're still talking about this filters thing. It's honestly very simple, and it's depressing that you can hijack the conversation for months by just saying crazy stuff.

533
01:03:32,667 --> 01:03:38,667
We're going on almost a year here straight, it feels like, or at least over six months, I feel like.

534
01:03:41,667 --> 01:03:49,667
I do think that in terms of like origin, I think I was correct. And maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

535
01:03:50,667 --> 01:03:59,667
People's self-identifying as plebs more and more and more really crescendoed around 2019, 2020 with lightning.

536
01:04:00,667 --> 01:04:16,667
And the whole idea of slop getting more popular was really with Dolly 3 and Dolly 2 and chat GBT and stuff, creating a bunch of slop sort of, you know, stuff for people to parse and try to figure out what's going on.

537
01:04:16,667 --> 01:04:26,667
I think a lot of this was just being called slop. Is that fair in terms of the origins of these words individually, kind of gaining recent notoriety?

538
01:04:26,767 --> 01:04:32,447
for people to parse and try to figure out, almost like a tack on time and stuff.

539
01:04:32,587 --> 01:04:34,367
think a lot of this was just being called slop.

540
01:04:59,987 --> 01:05:05,147
it was around a similar time that the lightning became popular, but we saw this giant

541
01:05:05,147 --> 01:05:11,067
wave of quote unquote Bitcoin only companies that were, you

542
01:05:11,067 --> 01:05:15,627
know, these front lines built on top of shitcoin companies and so they didn't have a

543
01:05:15,627 --> 01:05:19,653
compelling product and they wanted to differentiate themselves

544
01:05:19,773 --> 01:05:25,233
from Coinbase. so they essentially were able to a

545
01:05:25,233 --> 01:05:30,613
excited and loyal

546
01:05:30,613 --> 01:05:36,493
customer base by giving them a way to differentiate themselves

547
01:05:36,493 --> 01:05:39,633
from others by being Bitcoin only.

548
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:45,840
it was like, Bitcoin being this money to separate

549
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:51,140
the power of central bankers over

550
01:05:51,140 --> 01:05:56,320
essentially emancipate individuals from the power of central bankers.

551
01:05:59,060 --> 01:05:59,626
part

552
01:05:59,626 --> 01:06:04,186
of that being the ability to transact privately,

553
01:06:05,966 --> 01:06:11,546
were able to eclipse that aspect of usher in

554
01:06:11,546 --> 01:06:17,406
KYC, because now it's a against Ethereum and Solana

555
01:06:17,406 --> 01:06:18,886
and Dogecoin. And

556
01:06:19,613 --> 01:06:24,993
so I think that was like really the rise of the pleb in many ways.

557
01:06:25,113 --> 01:06:31,033
was, let's take the plebs, the cannon fodder,

558
01:06:31,373 --> 01:06:37,033
let's direct, misdirect them at something that isn't that important, but they

559
01:06:37,033 --> 01:06:38,773
can feel like they're doing something.

560
01:06:38,853 --> 01:06:39,599
They get the cathartic

561
01:06:44,539 --> 01:06:47,339
And I

562
01:06:47,339 --> 01:06:56,259
think

563
01:06:56,259 --> 01:06:58,459
that's a

564
01:07:01,346 --> 01:07:04,826
that... anyone else hear Richard in the matrix or is it just me?

565
01:07:06,566 --> 01:07:07,166
talked normally.

566
01:07:09,546 --> 01:07:10,726
Oh my god, Twitter.

567
01:07:12,846 --> 01:07:17,806
Oh yeah. Richard just started sounding like a demonic demon.

568
01:07:18,766 --> 01:07:18,866
Like

569
01:07:19,572 --> 01:07:23,032
slow, frequent reward.

570
01:07:23,212 --> 01:07:25,912
That's even crazier than what we normally seem to be.

571
01:07:26,732 --> 01:07:28,152
Well, there you go.

572
01:07:28,292 --> 01:07:33,092
had Portland Hodl in the audience and he wanted to speak earlier, but it seems he's

573
01:07:33,092 --> 01:07:36,132
gotten chai and I would beckon you to come up here.

574
01:07:36,252 --> 01:07:38,432
Portland Hodl, if there's something you'd like to say.

575
01:07:39,899 --> 01:07:42,979
I might need to leave and come back to hear Richard, it almost sounds like he was

576
01:07:42,979 --> 01:07:47,959
saying, your swans and strikes of the world were sort of plebslop use case companies.

577
01:07:48,219 --> 01:07:50,339
Is that kind of gist of what you were saying?

578
01:07:53,179 --> 01:07:56,679
Like the whole idea of like buying every two minutes on strike.

579
01:07:56,899 --> 01:07:59,399
It's like, I'm, I'm doing it, you

580
01:08:00,345 --> 01:08:03,745
I don't know if that's...

581
01:08:03,745 --> 01:08:06,245
Damn, wish... I'm just gonna leave and come back.

582
01:08:06,245 --> 01:08:12,145
Fucking apps. I only had one thing say about, specifically the topic of Lightning being

583
01:08:12,145 --> 01:08:18,005
PLEBSLOP. I think it is not PLEBSLOP in the fact that

584
01:08:18,005 --> 01:08:19,532
it does give an idea of

585
01:08:19,692 --> 01:08:25,272
how individuals want settlement that is fast and frictionless and cheap.

586
01:08:26,612 --> 01:08:31,812
But the idea of don't think it works long term specifically because like if we really

587
01:08:31,812 --> 01:08:35,212
do get this mass migration to Lightning and eight billion people are all using

588
01:08:35,212 --> 01:08:39,512
Lightning to dodge fees from miners, the miners are very

589
01:08:39,538 --> 01:08:43,558
likely, if not decentralized sufficiently, going to literally just start censoring

590
01:08:43,558 --> 01:08:47,178
those transactions as part of maybe a policy or something.

591
01:08:47,898 --> 01:08:51,718
that's just, yeah.

592
01:08:53,798 --> 01:08:55,098
That's kind of far -fetched.

593
01:08:55,278 --> 01:08:59,118
You're saying that mining would be centralized enough to make it where if you're trying

594
01:08:59,118 --> 01:08:59,398
to close

595
01:08:59,505 --> 01:09:03,605
a channel like, no bidder would take it pretty much.

596
01:09:03,985 --> 01:09:07,885
like maybe Mara just goes like, hey, lightning channels being closed,

597
01:09:09,465 --> 01:09:12,785
maybe we could just increase the minimum fee rate for that specific type of thing.

598
01:09:12,845 --> 01:09:18,305
Right, but that is the same exact argument that Chris Guida and Mechanic use when it to

599
01:09:18,305 --> 01:09:19,491
miners being

600
01:09:19,671 --> 01:09:25,411
philanthropistic on taking, like, not mining

601
01:09:25,411 --> 01:09:28,891
transactions, even if it includes a high fee or something like I would just imagine

602
01:09:28,891 --> 01:09:33,831
easily miners would just be like, well, there's a fee here, someone else is going to

603
01:09:33,831 --> 01:09:36,151
take it if I don't take it.

604
01:09:37,791 --> 01:09:39,291
It also doesn't help that

605
01:09:39,478 --> 01:09:41,958
the opening of the channel is sort of anonymous, right?

606
01:09:42,038 --> 01:09:43,638
It's only the closeout, right?

607
01:09:43,838 --> 01:09:44,998
the Taproot transactions.

608
01:09:50,038 --> 01:09:51,578
Damn, did I fuck up again?

609
01:09:52,118 --> 01:09:53,718
we're talking. it was just baffling.

610
01:09:55,158 --> 01:09:59,458
I'm I'm I'm I'm just, just, just, I'm I'm just, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm

611
01:09:59,544 --> 01:10:02,364
Paul, you're saying the silence is because of I said was so dumb.

612
01:10:02,424 --> 01:10:06,984
No, it was intriguing to bring up mean, I think Taproot is plebslop.

613
01:10:09,264 --> 01:10:11,004
It doesn't actually do anything.

614
01:10:11,424 --> 01:10:14,784
It's a big distraction and even SegWit.

615
01:10:15,424 --> 01:10:18,484
me, Taproot specifically.

616
01:10:18,524 --> 01:10:19,451
Because what

617
01:10:19,491 --> 01:10:23,351
we're doing is we're just going down this road of more address types.

618
01:10:24,151 --> 01:10:26,311
it's these benefits are fake.

619
01:10:26,491 --> 01:10:29,531
Like you have people saying it's a smart contract upgrade.

620
01:10:30,691 --> 01:10:33,771
And most people just don't have a deranged view of what it is.

621
01:10:33,851 --> 01:10:35,831
And it's, it's an illusion.

622
01:10:36,171 --> 01:10:39,431
it's something we feed into people to convince them that Bitcoin

623
01:10:39,437 --> 01:10:41,697
is making progress, which is a illusion.

624
01:10:41,797 --> 01:10:44,717
let me ask you a quick follow -up.

625
01:10:45,157 --> 01:10:50,117
Would you say that the technicals are not plebslop or the technicals are plebslop?

626
01:10:50,257 --> 01:10:54,217
Because maybe we can argue easily and agree that a lot of things in or around Taperu,

627
01:10:54,277 --> 01:10:55,877
especially socially, is plebslop.

628
01:10:55,917 --> 01:10:57,057
I think it's a social question.

629
01:10:57,857 --> 01:10:59,057
Technically, it's plebslop.

630
01:10:59,984 --> 01:11:02,084
Okay, so you don't think it's technically plebslop.

631
01:11:02,544 --> 01:11:03,744
no, he thinks it does, thought.

632
01:11:04,604 --> 01:11:06,264
No, it's technically plebslop.

633
01:11:06,564 --> 01:11:11,404
is one mistake that completely makes Taproot, in my opinion, long -term unusable.

634
01:11:11,804 --> 01:11:15,744
Specifically, the enforcement of a pubkey be on the curb.

635
01:11:16,304 --> 01:11:19,344
doesn't, if we didn't have this requirement that the

636
01:11:19,410 --> 01:11:23,470
pubkey must be on the curb, you could create quantum resistant Taproot addresses.

637
01:11:23,830 --> 01:11:27,570
But because you have no way currently to disable the key path spend, because somebody

638
01:11:27,570 --> 01:11:32,070
wanted to save a byte or stop a few bytes of arbitrary data on chain, you've, in my

639
01:11:32,070 --> 01:11:35,190
opinion, long -term completely obliterated the use case for Taproot.

640
01:11:37,450 --> 01:11:39,350
Yeah, they got on a

641
01:11:39,397 --> 01:11:40,317
high horse about,

642
01:11:42,897 --> 01:11:48,717
if you use like payment codes or if you use reusable addresses or if you use HD

643
01:11:48,717 --> 01:11:49,317
wallets,

644
01:11:50,977 --> 01:11:56,277
it's going to be leaked anyway so we don't care about quantum.

645
01:11:56,577 --> 01:11:58,157
That was like the big meme of it.

646
01:11:58,237 --> 01:11:59,383
The whole thing is all a

647
01:11:59,403 --> 01:12:01,143
bunch of, it's all fashion.

648
01:12:02,183 --> 01:12:03,403
And it is masquerading it.

649
01:12:04,323 --> 01:12:09,183
My point is though, yeah, I agree with one bite that was saved by making sure that the

650
01:12:09,183 --> 01:12:14,543
parrot, you don't have a parity byte anymore, is one four megabyte inscription puts

651
01:12:14,543 --> 01:12:19,370
more just wasted data on chain than four, like basically

652
01:12:19,410 --> 01:12:21,530
basically equivalent to four million of these transactions, right?

653
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:25,930
And we could have used that as, a nice little flag to, like, quantum's actually a

654
01:12:25,930 --> 01:12:29,630
problem, maybe we can use this, but now we gotta go through an entire software process

655
01:12:29,630 --> 01:12:35,610
to deal with that if that happens, or just revert back to primitive witness pubkey

656
01:12:35,610 --> 01:12:36,450
hashes or something.

657
01:12:36,570 --> 01:12:37,010
I don't know.

658
01:12:37,370 --> 01:12:37,530
So,

659
01:12:38,770 --> 01:12:39,356
I just think

660
01:12:39,456 --> 01:12:40,556
that was a massive mistake.

661
01:12:42,716 --> 01:12:47,236
Similarly, bit 47 where were like universally discouraged by university.

662
01:12:47,276 --> 01:12:50,456
Luke meant that he didn't like it, but then it's like it makes the first transaction

663
01:12:50,456 --> 01:12:52,996
like something like 15 % larger.

664
01:12:53,276 --> 01:12:56,736
then as a result, we never need to use addresses again.

665
01:12:56,736 --> 01:12:58,756
And everyone has like just like an address book that works.

666
01:12:58,936 --> 01:12:59,336
then but

667
01:13:01,403 --> 01:13:02,523
I mean,

668
01:13:04,523 --> 01:13:09,663
thought that Taperu was just sort of abstracting, I guess,

669
01:13:10,623 --> 01:13:16,343
the formats that you use for consensus, just like that whole op success idea.

670
01:13:16,603 --> 01:13:19,283
Like I think that was the main one that they really

671
01:13:19,329 --> 01:13:20,789
made any advancement on.

672
01:13:21,009 --> 01:13:26,669
don't think the actual technical merit of allowing more descriptive

673
01:13:26,669 --> 01:13:28,169
script paths and stuff like that.

674
01:13:28,269 --> 01:13:33,949
mean, I guess I'm thinking of going from SegWit to Taproot seems

675
01:13:33,949 --> 01:13:36,269
more extension blocky.

676
01:13:36,549 --> 01:13:37,549
I'm just saying a lot of stuff.

677
01:13:39,089 --> 01:13:39,316
I

678
01:13:39,396 --> 01:13:43,716
think one thing Taproot does that is very, nice compared to, for example, pay to

679
01:13:43,716 --> 01:13:48,596
witness script hash or pay to script hash is that you don't have to write the entire

680
01:13:48,596 --> 01:13:51,376
script as a part of the execution or the commitment.

681
01:13:52,176 --> 01:13:55,056
And what I mean by that is when you go to spend, you don't have to include everything.

682
01:13:55,216 --> 01:13:59,036
You just include like this, this Merkle root or Merkle path and then this script you

683
01:13:59,036 --> 01:13:59,216
wanna

684
01:13:59,302 --> 01:14:01,882
execute. You don't have to show all of them.

685
01:14:02,122 --> 01:14:03,742
That I think is very useful.

686
01:14:04,902 --> 01:14:10,022
But I think the problem is that it is, it's like developer, perhaps not because

687
01:14:10,022 --> 01:14:13,002
it's all a distraction.

688
01:14:15,742 --> 01:14:17,222
Like, what am I trying to say?

689
01:14:17,382 --> 01:14:19,222
It's like, is nerd

690
01:14:19,288 --> 01:14:22,508
sniping, know? It's like, okay, we have these tiny little details.

691
01:14:24,468 --> 01:14:25,468
These are not really like...

692
01:14:25,468 --> 01:14:26,868
Well, do you think...

693
01:14:26,868 --> 01:14:29,588
Paul, you think BitVM is club slop?

694
01:14:32,868 --> 01:14:38,428
I think that's a good question because the actual idea is

695
01:14:38,428 --> 01:14:39,275
ingenious,

696
01:14:40,135 --> 01:14:43,935
but then you immediately saw a bunch of people with like PowerPoint slides who were

697
01:14:43,935 --> 01:14:49,675
like creating a company or an L2 and then they put BitVM like as a bullet

698
01:14:49,675 --> 01:14:50,235
point.

699
01:14:51,695 --> 01:14:57,415
but I think that it's kind of like, I don't know, in that case, I think the

700
01:14:57,415 --> 01:14:59,261
plebs know so little about

701
01:14:59,281 --> 01:15:03,221
it that it can't qualify as pleb slop.

702
01:15:03,961 --> 01:15:06,961
Whereas, people really think they understand lightning and they really think they

703
01:15:06,961 --> 01:15:09,961
understand what Taproot is, but they don't.

704
01:15:10,441 --> 01:15:12,621
no one knows what a garb old...

705
01:15:12,621 --> 01:15:16,901
Exactly, it's so different that it's almost in like a different category.

706
01:15:17,041 --> 01:15:19,248
It's like pre -slop.

707
01:15:19,248 --> 01:15:22,088
slop pre slop priest pre pleb slop.

708
01:15:22,088 --> 01:15:27,568
It's not it's next year maybe two years from now will be pleb slop, but but what I'm

709
01:15:27,568 --> 01:15:29,618
trying to get at is, you know,

710
01:15:31,108 --> 01:15:36,168
Bit VM wouldn't really be feasible without taproot with all the potential exit paths,

711
01:15:36,168 --> 01:15:38,948
but it's not really I mean, it's

712
01:15:39,234 --> 01:15:41,054
know. I mean, one difference.

713
01:15:41,194 --> 01:15:41,314
mean,

714
01:15:42,814 --> 01:15:45,034
what makes you say it's infeasible?

715
01:15:45,274 --> 01:15:51,194
I'm whether or not something works in the terminal on your computer has nothing to do

716
01:15:51,194 --> 01:15:53,054
with whether or not it works in the real world.

717
01:15:53,334 --> 01:15:54,314
I mean, I guess there is one thing.

718
01:15:54,414 --> 01:15:57,454
you can't get it to work on the terminal, then it's definitely not going to in the real

719
01:15:57,454 --> 01:15:58,934
world. But what I'm trying to say

720
01:15:59,221 --> 01:16:04,761
is, what we're gonna see is, similar to Arcade and Arc, you're gonna have companies

721
01:16:04,761 --> 01:16:09,421
spin up that have these things very controlled and very understood and very like, you

722
01:16:09,421 --> 01:16:10,861
know, well... is...

723
01:16:11,441 --> 01:16:13,141
And Arc will become...

724
01:16:13,141 --> 01:16:16,441
The covenants will be the new Lightning Web Slap.

725
01:16:17,741 --> 01:16:19,207
It's just an attempt to keep Lightning

726
01:16:19,207 --> 01:16:20,627
lightning model going.

727
01:16:22,087 --> 01:16:26,247
One difference I see between all these different projects is that like, for lightning,

728
01:16:26,427 --> 01:16:29,247
seemed like you kind of got other additional research out of it.

729
01:16:29,887 --> 01:16:34,247
You know, like, I don't know, fraud proofs and anything else that are just like hard

730
01:16:34,247 --> 01:16:37,647
problems people would talk about, like they would talk about like the free option

731
01:16:37,647 --> 01:16:38,627
problem or whatever.

732
01:16:38,927 --> 01:16:39,167
And

733
01:16:39,194 --> 01:16:43,154
that all sort of like went away eventually but I don't really see any of type of

734
01:16:43,154 --> 01:16:47,874
discussion for any of other projects that just sort of seemed like I don't know.

735
01:16:47,954 --> 01:16:50,654
That's a good point but I think it's just the core function of the timing like

736
01:16:50,654 --> 01:16:55,374
lightning was back in the earlier time period and was still possible to talk about

737
01:16:55,374 --> 01:16:59,174
things and Now, have to also remember, this is

738
01:16:59,180 --> 01:17:04,980
the best that Lightning has gotten after almost 10 years of deep thinking.

739
01:17:05,460 --> 01:17:10,260
mean, obviously, there wasn't implementations of it 10 years ago, but this has been

740
01:17:10,260 --> 01:17:12,900
thought about now for about a decade.

741
01:17:13,420 --> 01:17:18,020
And we're still sort of, quote unquote, struggling to make a great user experience with

742
01:17:18,020 --> 01:17:19,120
Lightning with

743
01:17:19,167 --> 01:17:23,727
BitVM, don't know how many years that's going to be right before you have any sort of

744
01:17:23,727 --> 01:17:29,587
UX and then downstream sort of problems that get discovered and

745
01:17:29,587 --> 01:17:30,447
then need to be solved.

746
01:17:30,627 --> 01:17:35,807
mean, I imagine you're going to run into those, but it's also kind of like, maybe these

747
01:17:35,807 --> 01:17:39,127
problems don't really exist because you're already sort of saying like, hey,

748
01:17:43,493 --> 01:17:49,493
The problem is that the problem is

749
01:17:49,493 --> 01:17:50,333
that that the problem

750
01:17:50,333 --> 01:17:58,513
the

751
01:17:58,513 --> 01:17:58,533
the

752
01:17:59,140 --> 01:18:04,480
Crowd, I think that even covenants are.

753
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:10,740
They're now among people who attend UpNext or Tab Conf, covenants are.

754
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:12,360
Web Slop to me.

755
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:14,480
Oh, I don't know.

756
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,200
Take from that whatever you will.

757
01:18:16,500 --> 01:18:18,500
Maybe I'm just super arrogant.

758
01:18:21,286 --> 01:18:23,366
sounds like you guys are talking Devslop.

759
01:18:24,386 --> 01:18:26,086
I'm here for the Pueblslop.

760
01:18:27,106 --> 01:18:29,306
I'm not really understanding what you guys are talking about.

761
01:18:29,406 --> 01:18:32,666
Let's go to another buzzword then.

762
01:18:33,686 --> 01:18:35,606
Or whatever. Okay, I got one.

763
01:18:37,466 --> 01:18:39,113
What Bitcoin did podcast?

764
01:18:39,253 --> 01:18:43,893
flip -flop yeah, absolutely he's so proud of the fact Peter McCormick and you know He's

765
01:18:43,893 --> 01:18:44,633
like an okay guy.

766
01:18:44,633 --> 01:18:49,513
He's fine like I Was one thing that was disappointing was that he had this story that I

767
01:18:49,513 --> 01:18:55,173
really believed about how like dark net markets helped him Purchase

768
01:18:55,173 --> 01:18:59,073
drugs basically medicine for his mother who was dying of like

769
01:18:59,119 --> 01:19:02,799
painful disease. And so I thought, oh, this guy's like a real Bitcoiner.

770
01:19:03,699 --> 01:19:08,739
And then he just morphed to format.

771
01:19:08,919 --> 01:19:13,379
he was just proud of the fact that he was doing kind of like a Tucker Carlson kind of

772
01:19:13,379 --> 01:19:18,079
thing. He was like, I'm proud of the fact that I don't understand what these weird devs

773
01:19:18,079 --> 01:19:18,639
are saying.

774
01:19:20,766 --> 01:19:24,166
And so that was full on PLEBSLOP, I thought.

775
01:19:27,226 --> 01:19:32,326
Another thing that's a bit weird with that, and why I would call it PLEBSLOP is because

776
01:19:32,776 --> 01:19:37,326
you give Peter benefit of doubt for X amount of years, but then afterwards it's like

777
01:19:37,326 --> 01:19:39,046
you're expected to

778
01:19:39,412 --> 01:19:44,012
I mean, would imagine it's like, this is your full -time job.

779
01:19:44,892 --> 01:19:50,252
You're actively learning and getting smarter and understanding the concepts better.

780
01:19:50,352 --> 01:19:54,392
You can only play the fool and only act like you don't understand it for so long.

781
01:19:54,552 --> 01:19:58,712
mean, it's kind of yes,

782
01:19:59,059 --> 01:20:03,379
everything is complicated, but if you make it your full -time passion and job and you're

783
01:20:03,379 --> 01:20:08,939
researching, you have the people on that talk about it, you can't, in my opinion,

784
01:20:10,519 --> 01:20:13,139
keep with the same sort of, oh, this is just technical.

785
01:20:13,419 --> 01:20:18,259
mean, the dev stuff is just too technical for me and I'm just a pleb.

786
01:20:18,879 --> 01:20:19,045
just,

787
01:20:19,045 --> 01:20:21,925
don't know. That's the part that I thought was a bit weird.

788
01:20:23,985 --> 01:20:29,705
I think the thing that you guys are missing about Peter, to clarify, Danny Knowles took

789
01:20:29,705 --> 01:20:31,645
over that podcast now.

790
01:20:34,325 --> 01:20:38,965
I think what Peter was able to identify and what a lot of content

791
01:20:39,032 --> 01:20:45,032
creators that you could classify as plebslops viewers have been able

792
01:20:45,032 --> 01:20:49,852
to identify is they're worried about their audience.

793
01:20:50,732 --> 01:20:54,232
And their audience are largely plebs.

794
01:20:54,932 --> 01:20:59,012
Uh, you know, in your sales model, you know,

795
01:20:59,058 --> 01:21:04,698
as a podcaster like Peter was, it's largely based on how much can you convince a

796
01:21:04,698 --> 01:21:05,518
sponsor to give you.

797
01:21:06,078 --> 01:21:11,198
What the sponsor wants to see is the maximum amount of plebs reached.

798
01:21:11,458 --> 01:21:15,598
That translates into how many USDT they're to pay you per episode.

799
01:21:17,158 --> 01:21:18,658
And so for Peter,

800
01:21:19,345 --> 01:21:20,705
he's an actor.

801
01:21:21,025 --> 01:21:23,125
It's a performative thing.

802
01:21:23,245 --> 01:21:25,545
It's not his failing to learn.

803
01:21:26,225 --> 01:21:27,805
Peter's a lot smarter than,

804
01:21:29,405 --> 01:21:35,145
he appears on a show, what makes it a compelling experience

805
01:21:35,145 --> 01:21:38,885
for the plebs to listen to his type of content is he's asking the

806
01:21:38,991 --> 01:21:51,691
the

807
01:21:51,691 --> 01:21:57,511
to do ask the questioners, and the are the

808
01:21:57,511 --> 01:21:58,978
questioners, questioners,

809
01:21:58,978 --> 01:22:00,778
that they might not be aware of something.

810
01:22:02,438 --> 01:22:07,978
this is part of the reason why Peter was so, and has been so successful as a content

811
01:22:07,978 --> 01:22:13,538
creator is he's been a pioneer in figuring out this format.

812
01:22:15,978 --> 01:22:17,398
Yeah, if that makes sense.

813
01:22:20,364 --> 01:22:21,784
I don't disagree with you.

814
01:22:21,984 --> 01:22:27,884
was agreeing with you that it's, like, how long can you go in and this still be like

815
01:22:27,884 --> 01:22:33,824
a thing is what I'm trying to get at where it's like, you have to constantly, like

816
01:22:33,824 --> 01:22:38,544
I said, be acting a fool or something and say like you constantly keep bringing up over

817
01:22:38,544 --> 01:22:38,944
and over

818
01:22:38,971 --> 01:22:42,111
and over. Hey, I'm not technical, by the way.

819
01:22:42,451 --> 01:22:43,451
but it's like, who are you fooling?

820
01:22:43,571 --> 01:22:46,251
just like the new people watching it, I guess.

821
01:22:48,791 --> 01:22:54,711
Well, yeah, I mean, for the show to stay relevant like that,

822
01:22:54,891 --> 01:22:57,851
continue to easily need to find new plebs.

823
01:22:59,477 --> 01:23:05,357
And I think, you know, it shows like what Bitcoin did kind of act as that

824
01:23:05,357 --> 01:23:11,357
funnel. like the Bitcoin standard is

825
01:23:11,357 --> 01:23:12,657
a book in a similar way.

826
01:23:12,817 --> 01:23:18,277
So it's like oftentimes the first stop that people hit on their journey

827
01:23:18,277 --> 01:23:18,924
and

828
01:23:19,204 --> 01:23:25,204
then they get funneled into other types of content and different things in

829
01:23:25,204 --> 01:23:28,284
the ecosystem. Their interests will change.

830
01:23:31,424 --> 01:23:37,244
But the first stop is generally where there's the most people.

831
01:23:37,244 --> 01:23:38,910
And so if you want the biggest show,

832
01:23:38,910 --> 01:23:44,790
show, you want to be that first stop in the funnel to hook people right off the bat

833
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:49,970
before they start funneling into their older, other separate interests.

834
01:23:54,750 --> 01:23:55,390
Okay.

835
01:23:56,990 --> 01:23:58,830
Treasury companies, Plubslop or not

836
01:23:58,897 --> 01:23:59,397
Pleb Slop.

837
01:24:01,157 --> 01:24:02,337
I think definitely.

838
01:24:04,317 --> 01:24:08,917
mean, arguably you could say when Michael Saylor first invented it, then it was maybe

839
01:24:08,917 --> 01:24:09,997
new and brilliant.

840
01:24:10,917 --> 01:24:13,637
Maybe, that's like I shudder even say that.

841
01:24:13,717 --> 01:24:18,883
But other than that, especially how people copy you now is this is just recycling

842
01:24:19,243 --> 01:24:20,763
something, an idea that's not Bitcoin.

843
01:24:21,063 --> 01:24:26,443
idea that the Treasury companies are selling stock to buy Bitcoin themselves, and then

844
01:24:26,443 --> 01:24:27,703
you're to buy the stock.

845
01:24:28,383 --> 01:24:34,283
It's weirdly the opposite of Bitcoin, yeah, so I mean, I say yes.

846
01:24:35,383 --> 01:24:38,403
but Treasury companies are they're out of favor right now.

847
01:24:38,743 --> 01:24:38,870
So

848
01:24:38,950 --> 01:24:40,630
how could it be plebslop?

849
01:24:40,790 --> 01:24:43,470
That's true. it's fallen out.

850
01:24:43,610 --> 01:24:45,010
It may have fallen out now.

851
01:24:45,330 --> 01:24:45,950
That's a good point.

852
01:24:46,610 --> 01:24:47,090
hadn't thought of that.

853
01:24:47,150 --> 01:24:50,690
It's now sub -slop or something.

854
01:24:51,330 --> 01:24:52,510
It's a sub -slop.

855
01:24:54,290 --> 01:24:57,290
Can you get David Bailey to get that back in I know.

856
01:24:57,810 --> 01:24:58,730
feel bad kicking

857
01:24:58,896 --> 01:25:01,916
you know, it's a pretty awkward stock price for him.

858
01:25:02,416 --> 01:25:04,496
they feel like, you know, you want to be punching up, right?

859
01:25:04,716 --> 01:25:06,516
mean. That's right.

860
01:25:06,556 --> 01:25:07,156
don't want to do that.

861
01:25:07,376 --> 01:25:07,536
him.

862
01:25:08,776 --> 01:25:09,936
I think the...

863
01:25:11,156 --> 01:25:14,916
I'm having a problem now on definitions because now we're saying if something falls out

864
01:25:14,916 --> 01:25:16,476
of favor, it's...

865
01:25:16,476 --> 01:25:18,656
or popularity, it's no longer a plebs swap.

866
01:25:18,843 --> 01:25:24,583
if the plebs now hate it because it has failed so much recently then i kind of think

867
01:25:24,583 --> 01:25:29,583
it's okay got it so and okay that makes sense so you're saying for it to be plebslop

868
01:25:29,583 --> 01:25:33,963
the plebs have to actively be they're like lapping it up it's like getting getting

869
01:25:33,963 --> 01:25:38,703
their dopamine it's like chickens in the chicken farm and they're like eating all the

870
01:25:38,829 --> 01:25:39,829
you know, the little seed.

871
01:25:40,889 --> 01:25:41,289
They're being fed.

872
01:25:41,289 --> 01:25:47,249
So then like a frequency and with which one might resonate, you know, like for myself

873
01:25:47,249 --> 01:25:53,069
as a, what I would say, semi-cynical, I tell myself Bitcoin is hope.

874
01:25:53,649 --> 01:25:55,809
there's Pleb Slop just in that, right?

875
01:25:55,829 --> 01:25:58,816
Because it's an extension, right, of what is

876
01:25:58,876 --> 01:26:01,276
what. And so I think of it more like a frequency.

877
01:26:01,496 --> 01:26:07,416
so if the plebs are resonating with that, then yeah, you're going to feel it.

878
01:26:08,736 --> 01:26:09,856
There's a question.

879
01:26:12,216 --> 01:26:15,016
Well, let me jump in because I think it's really important to understand.

880
01:26:15,536 --> 01:26:18,296
So there's effective and there's ineffective pleb slop.

881
01:26:19,362 --> 01:26:22,842
is very momentum -based.

882
01:26:24,662 --> 01:26:30,002
just because there's conflicting aspects of PLEMSLOP, the PLEMs aren't a monolith.

883
01:26:31,122 --> 01:26:36,782
what the fiat, US government,

884
01:26:37,802 --> 01:26:38,642
Kfabe industrial

885
01:26:38,789 --> 01:26:44,129
Industrial Complex has figured out is one of the best ways to deal with the plebs is

886
01:26:44,129 --> 01:26:46,189
through divide and conquer campaigns.

887
01:26:46,909 --> 01:26:52,369
So you have two competing plebslop narratives and the plebs are just fighting each

888
01:26:52,369 --> 01:26:56,389
other. Red team versus blue team, know, whatever.

889
01:26:56,389 --> 01:26:58,775
We're starting to see individuals,

890
01:26:58,935 --> 01:27:04,755
coming and bringing those ideas into the Bitcoin ecosystem of like,

891
01:27:04,795 --> 01:27:09,435
these users of Bitcoin are conservatives, these users are liberals.

892
01:27:11,095 --> 01:27:16,915
That's been a framing that's attempted to be used in the Core versus Not campaign.

893
01:27:16,915 --> 01:27:17,535
So,

894
01:27:21,262 --> 01:27:26,602
some plebslop goes sour and you got to retire it and you got to come up with a new

895
01:27:26,602 --> 01:27:32,242
meme. It's why the Republican Party or the Democrat Party, they don't

896
01:27:32,242 --> 01:27:35,982
use the same campaign slogans every single year.

897
01:27:35,982 --> 01:27:38,748
They might, they might go back after 40 years and

898
01:27:38,788 --> 01:27:44,508
recycle one, like Trump recycled Reagan's, uh, make America great again, uh,

899
01:27:44,648 --> 01:27:45,628
pleb slop slogan.

900
01:27:46,148 --> 01:27:46,748
Uh,

901
01:27:48,128 --> 01:27:54,008
slop is your yeah, the slop needs to, you know, it needs to feel

902
01:27:54,008 --> 01:27:58,735
novel and different because that's part of what engages

903
01:27:58,915 --> 01:28:04,435
the pleb is they, you know, it feels new and exciting and different.

904
01:28:04,495 --> 01:28:09,735
It has to move them and, you know, they kind of get tired eventually of repeating the

905
01:28:09,735 --> 01:28:11,255
same ideas over and over again.

906
01:28:11,335 --> 01:28:15,915
So you just kind of repackage it as slightly different

907
01:28:15,915 --> 01:28:18,655
for them. But yeah, I mean,

908
01:28:18,801 --> 01:28:24,641
you see a lot of divide and conquer campaigns using the plebs, getting

909
01:28:24,641 --> 01:28:26,241
them to fight each other.

910
01:28:27,761 --> 01:28:30,861
It's pretty interesting to just witness.

911
01:28:31,981 --> 01:28:37,881
It's like weaponized pleb slop is kind of fundamental to what's going on right

912
01:28:37,881 --> 01:28:38,661
now is what you're saying

913
01:28:38,708 --> 01:28:44,588
maybe. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there's harmful or harmless

914
01:28:44,588 --> 01:28:48,648
plebslop and then there's malicious plebslop and I would argue weaponized plebslop.

915
01:28:48,908 --> 01:28:54,228
when you start trying to convince the plebs to be cannon fodder for whatever

916
01:28:54,228 --> 01:28:58,694
your interests are, I think that's

917
01:28:59,514 --> 01:29:03,954
disrespectful. think it's being a poor steward of plebslop.

918
01:29:04,274 --> 01:29:10,114
think plebslop should be used to uplift people and inspire

919
01:29:10,114 --> 01:29:14,614
them. can use it like...

920
01:29:14,614 --> 01:29:16,274
I think the...

921
01:29:16,274 --> 01:29:18,614
Why I don't think the Bitcoin standard is

922
01:29:18,681 --> 01:29:23,741
inherently bad or malicious, plebslop, because I think it's an invitation to begin

923
01:29:23,741 --> 01:29:25,341
thinking about things differently.

924
01:29:25,481 --> 01:29:31,061
It's kind of like a friendly bridge or just an

925
01:29:31,061 --> 01:29:35,261
introduction into different ideas, or what Bitcoin did is kind of like that too.

926
01:29:39,327 --> 01:29:44,287
And I think those invitations are productive because it can help a Plab

927
01:29:44,287 --> 01:29:49,487
grow up and be an adult and begin to use their brain and think critically.

928
01:29:49,787 --> 01:29:55,487
One of the challenges in our society and culture as a whole is we don't

929
01:29:55,487 --> 01:29:58,487
have good examples of how to think

930
01:29:58,654 --> 01:30:03,074
critically. instead, almost every example you see is a bad example.

931
01:30:03,274 --> 01:30:06,414
Like you see Podconf down there in the audience.

932
01:30:07,254 --> 01:30:09,314
what Podconf is,

933
01:30:10,534 --> 01:30:12,714
the podcast conference industrial complex.

934
01:30:12,854 --> 01:30:18,134
what they're really trying to do is they're trying to replicate what we're seeing in

935
01:30:18,134 --> 01:30:18,334
the

936
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:23,780
Fiat, you know, PLEP slop industrial complex, you know, to bring those guys in and make

937
01:30:23,780 --> 01:30:25,020
it more interesting to them.

938
01:30:25,020 --> 01:30:28,500
Cause it, for them, it's a, it's a money grab,

939
01:30:30,420 --> 01:30:35,560
yeah, I think what the, what the plebs need to hear is they, need to hear and see

940
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:37,880
examples of what.

941
01:30:39,207 --> 01:30:44,747
thinking looks like, what nuanced discussion looks like, in many ways you can invite

942
01:30:44,747 --> 01:30:48,847
them into those spaces with PLEP Slop.

943
01:30:49,527 --> 01:30:54,067
Because otherwise they might not come and even be interested in

944
01:30:57,287 --> 01:30:58,607
You get the masses in.

945
01:31:00,473 --> 01:31:03,993
It's like, like Krispy Kreme donuts can bring people into a room.

946
01:31:05,553 --> 01:31:09,653
then people can, they're eating a Krispy Kreme donut and they're I kind of know this is

947
01:31:09,653 --> 01:31:13,833
bad for me health wise, but it's really good.

948
01:31:14,813 --> 01:31:16,593
you know, like WWE maybe,

949
01:31:18,940 --> 01:31:19,780
Day, movie.

950
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:22,820
This is like good Plebslop maybe.

951
01:31:25,060 --> 01:31:27,080
know, it's just like give the people what they want.

952
01:31:27,440 --> 01:31:30,880
know, like Mozart says, give them a good bang at the end of songs.

953
01:31:31,820 --> 01:31:35,240
would just say, you know, going to node.

954
01:31:35,540 --> 01:31:38,586
mean, it's been around for a few

955
01:31:38,646 --> 01:31:44,326
months and it's not meant to be harmful and it's a

956
01:31:44,326 --> 01:31:48,486
metaphor for a lot more than just knots versus core.

957
01:31:49,206 --> 01:31:54,866
It's like you were saying a minute ago, you don't want to just be like a

958
01:31:54,866 --> 01:31:58,366
tool. You want to learn to think for yourself and navigate the journey for

959
01:31:58,573 --> 01:32:03,213
yourself. Because at the end of the day, it is, you are with yourself.

960
01:32:04,333 --> 01:32:08,193
but, you know, not going to know, it's slop, but it's fun.

961
01:32:08,493 --> 01:32:13,553
But it's also true, but it's not, you know, being negative.

962
01:32:13,693 --> 01:32:15,953
It's just saying, you know,

963
01:32:17,393 --> 01:32:18,553
think before you

964
01:32:18,579 --> 01:32:24,199
jump to being divided so easily Yeah, I agree the not like the not gonna know

965
01:32:24,199 --> 01:32:28,939
thing. It's a protest against the false binary

966
01:32:30,099 --> 01:32:34,659
Speaking on what Richard was speaking, you know hitting on earlier about choosing a

967
01:32:34,659 --> 01:32:38,479
side right versus left or a versus B

968
01:32:38,546 --> 01:32:44,306
like you don't have to engage in the fight you can protest the system you can

969
01:32:44,306 --> 01:32:49,866
protest this political system this political war that we're seeing in bitcoin by just

970
01:32:49,866 --> 01:32:55,546
choosing to not run a node and live your life and raise your family and go outside

971
01:32:55,546 --> 01:32:58,266
next block you

972
01:33:03,092 --> 01:33:08,932
It's kind of like the Church of Satan, know, putting up their,

973
01:33:08,932 --> 01:33:14,152
their statue of Baphomet outside the Oklahoma Capitol, uh,

974
01:33:15,272 --> 01:33:18,472
you know, protest of like, you know, like Luke and mechanic,

975
01:33:18,518 --> 01:33:21,618
they're out there, they're trying to wreck the, the 10 commandments.

976
01:33:22,158 --> 01:33:27,698
um, the not going to notice is essentially the same type of, uh,

977
01:33:27,698 --> 01:33:33,418
pushback. It's not necessarily trying to, I don't even know if they say this believe in

978
01:33:33,418 --> 01:33:36,398
Satan, a lot of them, but, uh, they're just trying to make a point.

979
01:33:41,105 --> 01:33:42,325
you calling us Satanists?

980
01:33:44,125 --> 01:33:47,705
So looks like we're talking about like catch phrases now.

981
01:33:47,925 --> 01:33:52,405
so a catch phrase I want to know if you guys think is plebslop or not plebslop is sound

982
01:33:52,405 --> 01:33:54,545
money. The phrase.

983
01:33:56,365 --> 01:33:58,385
mean, unfortunately, now a lot of this stuff has been

984
01:33:58,491 --> 01:34:01,671
stripped, it's become a soundbite, and it has been stripped of its original.

985
01:34:02,851 --> 01:34:06,211
think like, you know, it was originally just supposed to mean, by originally I mean

986
01:34:06,211 --> 01:34:07,631
like, you know, 2012 or whatever.

987
01:34:08,611 --> 01:34:12,411
It was just supposed to mean we have a fixed supply, whereas every fiat currency is

988
01:34:12,411 --> 01:34:15,471
just going to increase its supply, like whenever they want, whenever they have any

989
01:34:15,471 --> 01:34:15,871
pretext

990
01:34:17,191 --> 01:34:18,431
or a reason to do

991
01:34:18,558 --> 01:34:20,518
so, even a legit reason to do so.

992
01:34:20,678 --> 01:34:26,478
So they're just gonna expand forever, this geometric rate and sound money is just like,

993
01:34:26,538 --> 01:34:32,518
know, saying like gold, there's like a reason why the supply

994
01:34:32,518 --> 01:34:33,358
will not increase.

995
01:34:34,178 --> 01:34:38,464
So I thought that that part is perfectly true, but

996
01:34:38,524 --> 01:34:40,024
now it's become...

997
01:34:41,904 --> 01:34:44,744
I don't know, like it's become like a...

998
01:34:45,504 --> 01:34:49,824
When you can have people on stage and you can just say, we believe Bitcoin is for

999
01:34:49,824 --> 01:34:52,604
money, but not for file storage.

1000
01:34:54,764 --> 01:34:58,404
Somehow that's like the sound money meme being like co -opted

1001
01:34:58,451 --> 01:35:02,331
because, well first of Bitcoin transaction is a file.

1002
01:35:03,631 --> 01:35:04,451
So it's nonsense.

1003
01:35:05,291 --> 01:35:06,311
it's kind of like why,

1004
01:35:08,091 --> 01:35:09,251
I don't know who's against that.

1005
01:35:09,371 --> 01:35:13,831
I don't know, it's another case where people know the bullet point, but they don't,

1006
01:35:13,991 --> 01:35:15,991
they're not really being fed anything though, I think.

1007
01:35:17,111 --> 01:35:17,751
maybe it's not,

1008
01:35:18,737 --> 01:35:24,457
slop I really get the I get the the image of like like pigs

1009
01:35:24,457 --> 01:35:29,137
eating out of the trough and you're like feeding them so that the pig will get will

1010
01:35:29,137 --> 01:35:33,817
gain weight and then you can have more bacon later and

1011
01:35:33,817 --> 01:35:38,257
I don't know the sound money maybe it's also legit so I don't

1012
01:35:38,424 --> 01:35:40,264
know. I guess I'm not sure.

1013
01:35:43,144 --> 01:35:44,204
So what are we saying?

1014
01:35:44,744 --> 01:35:50,584
we say? we got to rebrand to like Bitcoin as a sound JPEG database?

1015
01:35:51,104 --> 01:35:52,104
It's a good point.

1016
01:35:52,344 --> 01:35:53,224
what am I trying to say?

1017
01:35:53,364 --> 01:35:54,844
Bitcoin's not sound money like it is.

1018
01:35:55,184 --> 01:35:56,064
So that's a good point.

1019
01:35:57,624 --> 01:35:58,410
Well, would

1020
01:35:58,410 --> 01:36:04,070
argue that Bitcoin is not yet sound money because at least my understanding

1021
01:36:04,070 --> 01:36:08,770
of the definition of sound money is it's money that has won in the

1022
01:36:08,770 --> 01:36:13,990
free market and has become the dominant money in it.

1023
01:36:14,190 --> 01:36:18,050
know, right now it really seems like tether

1024
01:36:18,397 --> 01:36:21,297
is on the path to becoming sound money.

1025
01:36:22,557 --> 01:36:28,437
And Bitcoin is just kind of the rails upon which Tether might exist on top of,

1026
01:36:28,577 --> 01:36:32,257
but there's kind of like a market for...

1027
01:36:32,257 --> 01:36:36,697
I think that was like the big story of the Lugano Tether conference

1028
01:36:36,697 --> 01:36:38,383
that

1029
01:36:38,703 --> 01:36:39,463
was missing

1030
01:36:41,843 --> 01:36:44,033
from the general discussion of like,

1031
01:36:48,163 --> 01:36:49,383
people are sleeping on Tether.

1032
01:36:49,563 --> 01:36:55,523
mean, we're going to see a really kind of fascinating transition here

1033
01:36:55,523 --> 01:36:58,370
in the near future where many Bitcoin maximalists

1034
01:36:58,610 --> 01:37:02,050
are going to become Bitcoin and Tether maximalists.

1035
01:37:06,170 --> 01:37:11,830
I'm excited and just at the prospect of being able to witness such a

1036
01:37:11,830 --> 01:37:15,130
dramatic change and shift in Bitcoin culture.

1037
01:37:17,230 --> 01:37:18,090
But it's coming.

1038
01:37:18,896 --> 01:37:24,316
The plugs are going to, you know, they're going to be very excited about, you know,

1039
01:37:24,596 --> 01:37:29,096
relaying monetary tether transactions on chain.

1040
01:37:37,516 --> 01:37:38,276
I think

1041
01:37:38,343 --> 01:37:39,223
that's going to be sad.

1042
01:37:40,683 --> 01:37:46,503
It's like a feedback loop where Tether and folks have made so much money that they

1043
01:37:46,503 --> 01:37:51,523
can effectively promote this and do a good job with user experience and all this kind

1044
01:37:51,523 --> 01:37:56,263
of stuff. man, oh man, does it really just, in my opinion, feel like it's just taken

1045
01:37:56,263 --> 01:37:57,963
away from Bitcoin.

1046
01:37:57,963 --> 01:37:58,329
I think

1047
01:37:58,349 --> 01:37:59,629
it's going to be super sad.

1048
01:38:00,249 --> 01:38:04,929
I already kind of see it amongst a lot of the influencers who are, you know,

1049
01:38:06,369 --> 01:38:12,309
accepting money. you know, think Lugano is like paying people nice travel budget, you

1050
01:38:12,309 --> 01:38:16,669
know, kind of, you know, they're expending a lot of money to get high quality people

1051
01:38:16,669 --> 01:38:18,229
out and people are accepting it.

1052
01:38:20,896 --> 01:38:24,336
It's like the question is, can anything stop that train?

1053
01:38:24,636 --> 01:38:24,996
know what mean?

1054
01:38:32,696 --> 01:38:37,536
Well, as long as they pump my bags, know, if you can't beat them, join them.

1055
01:38:37,956 --> 01:38:38,302
like

1056
01:38:38,302 --> 01:38:42,702
you're saying, pump your bags, maybe one day, one USDT will be worth two USDT?

1057
01:38:42,782 --> 01:38:43,202
Like, what do you mean?

1058
01:38:44,202 --> 01:38:47,522
Yeah, yeah. If I got Dp'd, I'd upset.

1059
01:38:51,282 --> 01:38:57,262
I only got a couple more minutes, but I'd like to answer whatever

1060
01:38:57,262 --> 01:38:58,062
questions anyone

1061
01:38:58,289 --> 01:39:02,989
has. You can go maybe like 10 more minutes.

1062
01:39:05,389 --> 01:39:06,969
Paul, it's been real.

1063
01:39:07,429 --> 01:39:09,129
I will chat with you later.

1064
01:39:09,289 --> 01:39:09,689
have to run.

1065
01:39:11,529 --> 01:39:12,629
All right, see you later.

1066
01:39:13,869 --> 01:39:14,709
Good channel with the module.

1067
01:39:15,049 --> 01:39:17,889
You have to say the least plebslop conference

1068
01:39:18,275 --> 01:39:19,875
is tabconf and then I'll leave.

1069
01:39:20,215 --> 01:39:21,075
I think that's true.

1070
01:39:21,335 --> 01:39:22,555
I think it is true, maybe.

1071
01:39:22,855 --> 01:39:23,675
What would be the least?

1072
01:39:25,015 --> 01:39:27,795
Especially this one was good, this one was better.

1073
01:39:27,995 --> 01:39:33,955
Before when you had so much lightning content, I was getting worried in previous

1074
01:39:33,955 --> 01:39:34,675
years.

1075
01:39:36,055 --> 01:39:38,262
All of it was a super obscure technical

1076
01:39:38,262 --> 01:39:44,162
technical problem with 10,000 steps could be fixed if we have convoluted

1077
01:39:44,162 --> 01:39:45,382
10 step thing.

1078
01:39:45,642 --> 01:39:50,982
I just thought up yesterday that was like what all the talks were last year.

1079
01:39:51,182 --> 01:39:52,402
So I was like, Oh, okay.

1080
01:39:52,822 --> 01:39:56,782
But we need a different word for that because that's obviously based on what we're

1081
01:39:56,782 --> 01:39:58,002
saying earlier, not plebslop.

1082
01:39:58,248 --> 01:40:00,608
That's a devslop or something.

1083
01:40:00,648 --> 01:40:01,448
It's conference. Yeah.

1084
01:40:01,608 --> 01:40:04,428
I can't, you can't call that plebslop though.

1085
01:40:04,428 --> 01:40:07,048
It's like no one's, but a technical takes.

1086
01:40:07,628 --> 01:40:10,668
the fact that everyone's drinking the lightning Kool -Aid that makes, that makes it

1087
01:40:10,668 --> 01:40:15,328
blebs off. Well, I would say this, and this is my, this is my honest to God take.

1088
01:40:15,508 --> 01:40:18,235
think just because people have

1089
01:40:18,275 --> 01:40:23,135
bad ideas doesn't mean that they wouldn't be able to accept good ideas.

1090
01:40:23,195 --> 01:40:25,535
If the good ideas can show some traction.

1091
01:40:25,755 --> 01:40:31,235
So I wish you luck and I really hope we can put lightning, sorry not lightning,

1092
01:40:32,615 --> 01:40:36,795
your LayerTwo Labs project with Drivechain and however it ends up looking on the

1093
01:40:36,795 --> 01:40:38,221
forefront to actually be,

1094
01:40:40,041 --> 01:40:45,161
I think that's pretty exciting.

1095
01:40:45,441 --> 01:40:48,161
So I would say build it and they will come.

1096
01:40:49,441 --> 01:40:50,661
Let's build on it.

1097
01:40:50,901 --> 01:40:51,261
know what I'm saying?

1098
01:40:51,741 --> 01:40:54,221
that's my challenge openly.

1099
01:40:54,441 --> 01:40:56,341
I think I'm really excited to support you.

1100
01:40:56,761 --> 01:40:57,861
No, I'm serious, by the way.

1101
01:40:58,888 --> 01:40:59,868
all right, see ya, bye.

1102
01:41:00,428 --> 01:41:01,048
you.

1103
01:41:03,008 --> 01:41:07,468
All right everybody, think that we can start making some, we can close it up.

1104
01:41:07,728 --> 01:41:09,148
So thanks to everybody for joining.

1105
01:41:09,928 --> 01:41:15,748
Thanks to Michael Tidwell who just left, who is the founder and host of

1106
01:41:15,748 --> 01:41:18,108
TabComp. He recently hosted

1107
01:41:18,194 --> 01:41:23,554
Tab Comp and has been putting a bunch of really awesome technical non -plub slot content

1108
01:41:23,554 --> 01:41:28,894
on his Twitter page that you can go check out, including a talk with our CEO, Paul

1109
01:41:28,894 --> 01:41:34,174
Storts. Thanks to Richard, who I'll pass it over to in sec from Bugle News

1110
01:41:34,174 --> 01:41:36,374
along with Rod Palmer.

1111
01:41:37,014 --> 01:41:38,181
also produce

1112
01:41:38,321 --> 01:41:43,261
high signal and humorous Bitcoin content to go check out their podcasts when you have

1113
01:41:43,261 --> 01:41:45,961
the time. And I'll pass it over to you.

1114
01:41:47,621 --> 01:41:53,401
Yeah, I just want to say, you know, I appreciate Paul a lot for just

1115
01:41:53,401 --> 01:41:57,361
having, you know, a contrarian view for a long time.

1116
01:41:57,361 --> 01:41:58,167
I

1117
01:41:58,447 --> 01:42:03,147
would say he's probably one the more interesting podcast guests on the circuit.

1118
01:42:03,367 --> 01:42:09,287
His last interview with All Money I thought was a great show.

1119
01:42:09,587 --> 01:42:10,607
I really enjoyed it.

1120
01:42:10,607 --> 01:42:14,667
I was driving somewhere when I was listening to it.

1121
01:42:14,707 --> 01:42:18,007
Rob Hamilton told me that I needed to listen to it and,

1122
01:42:18,154 --> 01:42:23,914
it you know, it really sucked me in in a way that a lot of episodes don't because there

1123
01:42:23,914 --> 01:42:26,494
were a lot of differing ideas.

1124
01:42:26,674 --> 01:42:31,734
So I just want to say you're a very good source of entropy in the industry.

1125
01:42:31,854 --> 01:42:37,454
And I think you have been, you know, crucified in the past for refusing

1126
01:42:37,454 --> 01:42:38,140
to engage

1127
01:42:38,240 --> 01:42:39,040
in PLEBSLOP.

1128
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:45,760
I don't always agree with you, but that's something I appreciate about you and it's not

1129
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:51,340
something that I dislike you for because it's good to be around people

1130
01:42:51,340 --> 01:42:56,680
that you disagree with because it gets you to think about things a little bit more.

1131
01:42:57,320 --> 01:42:58,127
And yeah,

1132
01:42:58,127 --> 01:43:00,227
Yeah, appreciate the space.

1133
01:43:00,427 --> 01:43:01,307
Thank you guys.

1134
01:43:01,627 --> 01:43:02,347
Thanks for joining.

1135
01:43:03,027 --> 01:43:03,627
Hey, thanks

1136
01:43:09,047 --> 01:43:13,247
Should we anyone else everything I say or we're winding it down I learned a lot.

1137
01:43:13,247 --> 01:43:14,347
Yeah, do this

1138
01:43:16,427 --> 01:43:22,067
Okay, thanks everyone see you guys later See you guys on the next one.

1139
01:43:22,127 --> 01:43:22,207
Bye