1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:25,600 Welcome to the Shitcoin.com show, everyone. 2 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:31,680 Today as always, I'm joined by Andreas Brecken, founder and CEO of Shitcoin.com, and today's 3 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:37,440 special guest, you might know him as the guy behind Drivechain, also a prominent Bitcoin 4 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,640 researcher in the space, Paul Sztorc. 5 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,640 Welcome, Paul. 6 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:42,640 Hey, thanks, guys. 7 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:43,640 Thanks for having me. 8 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,760 I'm so happy to be here. 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Always good to have you back on the show. 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:50,320 You're a regular feature these days. 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,240 You definitely pop in from time to time to talk to us about current affairs. 12 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,960 Yeah, well, you guys are great. 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:57,960 I mean, I got to talk to someone. 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,640 Who am I going to talk to these days? 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,440 So I guess to kick it off, Paul, it'd be great to just get a bit of an update on, yeah, what's 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:07,440 the latest with Drivechain? 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,120 Where are things at? 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,340 Drivechain's going really well. 19 00:01:12,340 --> 00:01:17,560 We put out a new version, so we have a version 30 of the test net is out. 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:18,560 People can check it out. 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:19,800 Go to drivechain.info. 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,400 We have a downloads page. 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,400 We have a guide with screenshots. 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,000 We've been trying to make it more and more user-friendly and whatnot. 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,480 So I hate to say that it's done, because that's kind of a curse. 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,480 But I do kind of feel like it is very, very close to being finished. 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:46,440 It's all just been bug fixes for the last few months. 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:52,680 And what I'd like to do next is have a couple good examples of sidechains. 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,240 So that would be the next thing. 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,640 Andreas, I was talking to you before about Zcash being, that would be kind of an interesting 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:06,920 one because of how ambitious it is technically, but it's also a code fork of Bitcoin, as is 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,760 our sidechain template. 33 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,480 So it should be possible to merge, should be doable, pretty doable thing. 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,200 I mean, ideally, it would just be copying and pasting a few things, wallet and transaction 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:20,880 validation and block that. 36 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,960 So ideally, but of course, who knows how hard it will be in practice. 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:31,200 But ideally, it would be very doable, but also something that is kind of very ambitious 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,680 because the cryptography is very alien in Zcash. 39 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,920 But also the third great thing about it is that it is actually kind of useful because 40 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:45,800 people do criticize Bitcoin's privacy dimension. 41 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,280 And in particular, there are things you can do, but some of them produce the so-called 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,520 toxic waste, which are these outputs that kind of, they know that they belong to you 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,040 and now what are you going to do with them? 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,120 You can't combine it with other things, become trapped. 45 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:03,120 So you could send them to this. 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,200 You can drive into the desert and take a lot of photos. 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:16,200 Well, what I mean is you can send these outputs to Zcash sidechain and kind of like a black 48 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:23,040 hole and fresh coins come out and then you can take them from the sidechain back to the 49 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,040 main chain. 50 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:29,200 So it would be, that's kind of a good mix of kind of something that is doable, useful 51 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,160 and kind of desirable. 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:42,240 If you had a Zcash sidechain, would you have both transparent addresses and shielded addresses 53 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,440 or would you just have the shielded? 54 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:50,320 I would, because first of all, I think in general, the philosophy should be that all 55 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:55,840 people should, the altcoiners ideas should just be copied kind of faithfully. 56 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:01,280 I don't think it's a good idea to go down this road of being like, well, you know, sure 57 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Zcash is great, but let's just edit. 58 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,360 I don't like the way they did these Zk-SNARKs and then just start editing it so that it's 59 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:14,240 like some weird version of, it should just be whatever, every command line, ideally every 60 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,080 single command line argument or anything you do with the command line that you would do 61 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:24,320 on Zcash should just return the exact same thing on the sidechain. 62 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,880 Oh yeah, because otherwise you can't, yeah, and then you can reuse all software including 63 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:29,880 exchangeable implementations. 64 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,720 Yeah, absolutely, right. 65 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,000 So that's one reason. 66 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,560 The second reason is that I think it would be extraordinarily confusing to figure out 67 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,280 how to send money in, because when you go, if money goes in and out, our sidechain templates 68 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:47,000 already set up with Bitcoin addresses, whereas if you keep the transaction, the transparent 69 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,400 ones are just Bitcoin addresses with a different prefix or something as I understand it. 70 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,720 They are. 71 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,160 So that would be pretty, that would be pretty helpful to keep it, then the transfers in 72 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,920 and out could just be that part, could be the same. 73 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:02,680 And then I don't think it's a significant inconvenience. 74 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,520 I know, you know, I was shocked because I was just starting to do the research for this 75 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,320 and I was shocked that there's not a single, I don't think there's a single Zcash wallet 76 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,800 that supports the shielded addresses. 77 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:23,560 You have to run one of the two big clients, you have to run the Linux like node or you 78 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,760 have to run their Windows thing, their Windows like full node, in order to take advantage 79 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,720 of them at all, which I think is funny, I mean I'm sure there's some important reason 80 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:32,720 for that. 81 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:43,600 I happen to know, yes, it's too slow to create the mathematical proof required to 82 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:50,120 send shielded transactions on a phone. 83 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,640 But the phones, but I mean Zuko predicted this and I asked him about this over and over 84 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:01,160 the years, if phones would be able to do this and yeah, a few years ago he said they will 85 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,080 because the math is going to get quicker and the phones are going to get quicker and we're 86 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,400 already at the point where I'm pretty sure a phone can do it now. 87 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:17,640 So I remember reading news on a Zcash phone thing coming out that's shielded and I think 88 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,240 I heard that maybe last week. 89 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,320 Yeah, I saw this comical list, it was like all these Zcash wallets and there was like 90 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,880 feature comparison and then if you looked at like shielded addresses it was like no, 91 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:35,480 no, no, no, no, no, no, they're all no, every single one of them and I was like what? 92 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,520 You know, that was kind of funny. 93 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,200 Another sidechain, I've been looking a bit the last few days on a project called 94 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:55,960 Handshake, which is I guess some kind of, it's a reinvention of Namecoin, but the team 95 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:02,640 over at Purse.io and their friends at a startup called Namebase have been working on this 96 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,840 project for a long time. 97 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:10,080 So there's one thing we already know, it should not have a token, it should not have 98 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,080 mining. 99 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,640 I mean, that goes without saying. 100 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,040 It happens to have both. 101 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Well, Namecoin had them as well, which is funny. 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,160 Namecoin of course had merge mining, they had an option for merge mining. 103 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:27,640 I love the idea, I've always wanted like a Namecoin sidechain concept because the core 104 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,560 idea is really good. 105 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:37,960 Especially if you think of like Silk Road and the origins of Bitcoin, Onion on the Tor 106 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:45,640 network and how that's, one can only hope that that's part of the future of the internet, 107 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,320 it's just more people using Tor hidden services and like some way of getting it really fast 108 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,840 and then that would be like a new, that's like an important thing. 109 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,520 But in particular you just think of like this, problems that we have, like Silk Road or Darknet 110 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,760 Market, Tor addresses are weird, but also you have stuff like people impersonating Elon 111 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:13,000 Musk and Vitalik to like do these Twitter scams where people send these affinity scams. 112 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,440 The fact that I have to have all these different accounts at Telegram, I have the same, you 113 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:23,520 know, I have like a Reddit name, then I have a Twitter name and then I have a name on Telegram 114 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:29,960 and it's like, shouldn't it be possible for me to just send the thing and have it all 115 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,040 totally integrated. 116 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,200 And if I want and if I don't want them to be integrated, can't I just make a second 117 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,480 or a third or it should be like Bitcoin addresses where I just, I can make more if I need them. 118 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,200 And so I should just have a name and the name should just work on everything and I shouldn't, 119 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,200 you know. 120 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,200 There's other problems like logging in are terrible, everyone should use a password manager 121 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:55,640 that has one really difficult login and then it does the stuff for you, but this could 122 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,640 work like that. 123 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:03,440 Another obvious things about the way it works is the domain name, it doesn't, you know, 124 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:09,000 I think ICANN has done a phenomenal job of helping the internet grow into this awesome 125 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:15,280 thing, but obviously a lot of what they do doesn't work really well or is confusing. 126 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,320 Like why can't anything be a TLD at this point? 127 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,920 I mean, why even have, why even limit, why is anything, why are any of these limits like 128 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:22,920 still in place? 129 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,320 Shouldn't I be able to just do like Drivechain.bitcoin? 130 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:48,600 What I envisioned when I kind of tried to do an update of Namecoin on my blog, I was 131 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,480 envisaging a kind of like, you just have the name and then you just have some JSON and 132 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:53,720 you can just put whatever you want in there. 133 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,320 You can put everything, you can put a public key, you can put a Bitcoin address, you can 134 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,320 put a Bitcoin stealth address, you can put a website, you can put name servers, you can 135 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:03,320 put an IP address. 136 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,320 They're just describing Keybase now. 137 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,800 Yeah, but I think it should be, yeah, well that's the thing is I think it would be useful 138 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:16,880 in a kind of blockchain situation now because the blockchain is this consensus thing, you 139 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,640 could put it in a kind of Merkle tree or Radix tree and so everyone could just be like, it 140 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,560 could be very easy because it could just be like a name. 141 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:33,080 It's like a Merkle tree where stuff is sorted on, it's like there's a great image on Wikipedia 142 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:38,480 where it's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like words that start with M, so there's like 143 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:47,040 an M branch and then there's words that start with M-U like murder and muck or something, 144 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,160 so it's like it's branched based on the name, so you know the position. 145 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:52,160 The alphabetical sorting. 146 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,360 Exactly, so there's a sorting element, so you can prove that there's no other. 147 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,640 Oh, but you can guess exactly where it's going to be. 148 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:06,640 And also you can say, if you're the only Andreas in the whole thing, then you'll know exactly 149 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,920 where you'll be in the thing, so you could send it nearby ones to say, this is Andreas 150 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,600 and then to the left of me is not some other Andreas and to the right of me is not some 151 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:17,600 other thing. 152 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:18,600 Right. 153 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:28,080 So it adds this alphabetical concept, whereas Merkle tree is kind of just random. 154 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:34,880 The other thing, though, is that what I have in mind is that it's just a name and a hash 155 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,480 and then it's up to you. 156 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,600 You can just say, look, here's my thing, my little business card, and you can see that 157 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,360 the hash matches, so now that it's not part of consensus, you can make it as big as you 158 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,360 want. 159 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,360 You can have anything. 160 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,360 It could have a photo. 161 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:50,360 It can have nested things. 162 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:56,400 It could have hash number two, so you could say, here's this, but you don't get my home 163 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:03,160 address until layer three and then not until layer four do you get my medical history or 164 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,160 whatever. 165 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,760 You could just have all this stuff in there if you wanted and you could change it. 166 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,680 So I think the core idea is great. 167 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:16,160 The big challenge, and I have a blog post about this, that it was like 99% done and 168 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:22,320 I just never finished publishing it, but the big problem is that if you want to do something 169 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:30,160 like this, and I know Handshake is really emphasizing domain names a lot, which I think 170 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,160 is fine. 171 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:37,200 I almost think that's thinking a little too small, though, but I think obviously that's 172 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,000 pretty big, nonetheless. 173 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,400 The big problem is how do you respect these two sets of property rights simultaneously? 174 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,720 The ICANN, everyone already bought domains, so we already set this one system up, and 175 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:55,280 yet you want to have a new system and those people have to have a right to something. 176 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,680 So it's like how do you balance those two? 177 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:04,840 And personally, my opinion is that you should pick a moment in time and let everything that 178 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:12,800 ICANN has done, all the traditional domain.com, anything that ends in .com or anything ICANN 179 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:20,480 formatted that ends in .org or whatever, then it should always go to their thing. 180 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,160 They own all of that, and then if it's anything else, then it's a new thing. 181 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,240 So you could have like Google.anarchy and it would be like a completely different site 182 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,040 that could be run by anyone. 183 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,040 But if you do anything that already exists, .com. 184 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:44,520 So if someone registers example, 12345.com hypothetically in this new system and it hasn't 185 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,200 been registered in ICANN, then if someone then later registers it in ICANN, they should 186 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,160 be able to kind of claim it, because I think the ICANN one should always have a trump. 187 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,640 This should be like a layer two. 188 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,640 The new thing should be like a layer two on top of ICANN, where anything that ICANN just 189 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:07,800 doesn't resolve or didn't resolve as that wasn't a top-level domain as of March 10th, 190 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,000 2020, anything that didn't work there now gets kicked over to this thing. 191 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,600 But how does that work? 192 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,920 This is a question that's from me. 193 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:25,440 I don't understand if in the future ICANN decides to have .pol and .pol owns .pol. 194 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:32,120 I think that's why it's very important to pick a date for that and say, ICANN has kind 195 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,680 of teed this up a little bit by having TLDs. 196 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,040 So just by having them, you can say look, here's what they said and if they put it 197 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:46,920 in the future then forget them, because it can't be handcuffs to their decisions, then 198 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:47,920 you're screwed. 199 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:53,440 But you say look, because the whole point of this is only to make it certain that the 200 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,400 existing happy customers of ICANN are not unhappy in your new thing. 201 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,680 So you've got to keep everyone happy. 202 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,480 That's the game theorist's quest, to make sure everyone is happy, because unhappy people 203 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,360 will start a war or become a suicide bomber or something, you can't have that. 204 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:18,920 Yeah I already asked you what you thought of the way they were doing them. 205 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,360 Some of the tokenomics, as they call it these days on it, part of it is... 206 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,280 Yes, you have to refresh my memory a little bit because I know they, good developer, okay 207 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,360 you can do it, yes. 208 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:39,360 So if you have an account on GitHub that is older than a certain number of, I guess, years, 209 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,120 and you have at least X followers, I think it's like maybe 100. 210 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,120 I think it's only 15. 211 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,400 Okay, 15. 212 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,480 I mean having a follower on GitHub is like having a thousand on Twitter, because people 213 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,680 don't follow each other that much on GitHub. 214 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:03,600 If you have that, you'll get what is today, I think, like a couple of thousand dollars 215 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,160 worth of their token. 216 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,440 And the snapshot was already taken a while ago. 217 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,600 I thought there was also Hacker News, right? 218 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,600 Wasn't there something like Dominator or something? 219 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,280 Yeah, it is Hacker News. 220 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,880 I was just keeping it simple. 221 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,880 I had both. 222 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:31,800 So the reason they're doing it is because they want software developers with influence 223 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:40,680 over integrating something like Handshake in, say, a browser, they want them to be involuntary 224 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,680 bag holders. 225 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,280 So because these developers have the GitHub account, so they already have the Handshake, 226 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,600 they just haven't claimed it, but they can claim it in the future. 227 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:52,600 So yeah. 228 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:58,280 Well, it has properties similar to the hard fork in that way, where someone who wakes 229 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:04,720 up today from a coma that started before, they were fortunate enough to miss the events 230 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:12,480 of 2017 until today, and they wake up and now they're like, everyone tells them this 231 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,000 about BTC, BCH, BSV. 232 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:20,160 They have total indifference because they own equal amounts of all of them. 233 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,960 So this is the happiness kind of criterion that I was mentioning before. 234 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,520 They're kind of like, oh, okay, you know, I'm happy with whatever works. 235 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,080 In fact, I'm happy if everything works. 236 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,360 So they have a certain theory when they emphasize GitHub accounts, not even people, because 237 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:43,720 as you know, one person could plausibly have many accounts that get the thing. 238 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:49,740 So they have a theory that accounts are important to the success of the project. 239 00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:56,040 So did they do anything about this ICANN question that I raised, like about grandfathering in 240 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,160 old names or something like that? 241 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,640 Or no, this is like a wholesale replacement? 242 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:08,520 There is something where I think it's the first top 100,000 on Alexa are reserved and 243 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,520 can be claimed. 244 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,400 Okay, that's a good idea. 245 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:18,360 So yeah, see, I'm more interested in that because, but I don't know, I could be wrong 246 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:27,360 about this, but I suspect like, it's just kind of confusing because it's kind of like, 247 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,100 it's kind of like what does an account mean? 248 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:34,340 So if you work really hard, but you have your one GitHub account, but then the guy 249 00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:39,780 next to you in the cubicle, who he actually, for some reason, he has eight accounts that 250 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:42,880 qualify and then you're kind of like feeling resentful. 251 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:43,880 So now this is unhappiness. 252 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,580 I mean, everyone has to be happy, remember. 253 00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:50,300 And it's like people, do people want the coin or do they want, what do they want? 254 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:58,180 Wouldn't you rather have, so you're ranked 100,001 on Alexa, you just lost your site, 255 00:18:58,260 --> 00:19:01,940 and now it's like, it's sending a confusing message as well because if you're growing 256 00:19:01,940 --> 00:19:09,620 your site and your site's growing very well, then you're doing great, but you missed the 257 00:19:09,620 --> 00:19:11,860 cutoff and someone could register your name. 258 00:19:11,860 --> 00:19:13,540 Now it gets annoying. 259 00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:20,380 So those are the things, those are the areas that I really watch for because I don't want 260 00:19:20,380 --> 00:19:21,380 those people to be unhappy. 261 00:19:21,380 --> 00:19:26,180 I want everyone, I want it to just be smooth sailing, pure happiness in every direction. 262 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:39,220 Why was Trace so into something called Nimble Wimble Coin? 263 00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:40,220 What is it? 264 00:19:40,220 --> 00:19:41,220 I have no idea. 265 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:42,500 It doesn't make any sense. 266 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:47,340 Many people have commented on, in fact, you saw that, I can prove that I had no idea because 267 00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:53,020 you can see that I will not really prove, but you saw that I quoted him on Twitter because 268 00:19:53,020 --> 00:19:58,380 I thought he made a good point, but now to my dismay, I discover that who knows what 269 00:19:58,380 --> 00:20:04,380 really motivated his point about coin joining kind of outs you as a kind of creepy person 270 00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:08,860 and so you may not want to do it for that reason and I was like, that's right, you may 271 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:13,500 not want to do it for that reason, but now it seems as though his motivation for doing 272 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,420 that was just to make Nimble Wimble Coin look better, but yeah, this is a very confusing 273 00:20:17,420 --> 00:20:22,660 kind of, it doesn't really make any sense because Trace is supposed to be the super 274 00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:29,500 rich guy and Nimble, he didn't even shill Grin, right, which is like the kind of project. 275 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:36,460 Instead he shilled the coin that like kind of this weird pre-mine and so if he's really 276 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:40,420 like handing out these pieces of paper. 277 00:20:40,420 --> 00:20:41,420 That is old school. 278 00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:43,100 I give him credit for that. 279 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:44,100 Isn't that crazy? 280 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:45,620 It's like passing notes in school. 281 00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:47,620 Passing notes in class, yeah. 282 00:20:47,620 --> 00:20:48,620 Pass it on. 283 00:20:48,620 --> 00:20:52,740 I can't remember if it said like pass it on or something on the note. 284 00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:53,740 It doesn't make any sense. 285 00:20:53,740 --> 00:21:00,660 It doesn't make any sense that he would do that and also it would have been so unlikely 286 00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:05,960 to work because that was like Bitcoin maximalist conference. 287 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:14,220 So it shows this kind of total lapse of judgment that is very difficult to explain. 288 00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:15,420 I don't have any explanation. 289 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:20,340 I mean maybe he's really much poorer than everyone thinks or maybe he's crazy. 290 00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:27,180 He's like going senile or maybe he has been like having people kind of suck up to him 291 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:34,460 for so long that his self-criticism wires in his brain died out because they weren't 292 00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:37,380 being used and he needs to regrow them. 293 00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:39,980 It happens to people, right? 294 00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:41,740 That's part of this. 295 00:21:41,740 --> 00:21:43,260 It's a terrible thing about it. 296 00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:48,100 If anyone who's like rich or famous or important is that you have to always wonder like, are 297 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:49,820 these people just sucking up to me? 298 00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:53,260 Is there an angle? 299 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:54,260 So I don't know. 300 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:57,060 It doesn't make any sense why he would do that. 301 00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:59,140 He kind of thought that he could get away with that. 302 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:00,140 Like it makes no sense. 303 00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:01,140 I don't know. 304 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:06,020 And to not really get a lot of money because I don't think he could possibly have extracted. 305 00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:11,220 Yeah, I don't think the shilling went too well. 306 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:17,740 And that's why in the discussion that ensued, we started thinking like, who is the actual 307 00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:22,380 Bitcoin maximalist? 308 00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:25,580 Even you have held Namecoin, haven't you? 309 00:22:25,580 --> 00:22:26,580 I have. 310 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:27,580 Well, yeah, that's true. 311 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:34,060 For research purposes, I bought Zcash and then once I bought, I literally bought Ethereum 312 00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:38,940 Classic after it split off at the very bottom and then I can't access it because I don't 313 00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:39,940 understand how. 314 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:44,060 I tested it, I thought, but I never like did a complete round trip test. 315 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:50,820 So I bought like what it eventually would be because I bought it at like 25 cents or 316 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:54,380 whatever, the absolute lowest. 317 00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:57,300 And when I did, I was like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life. 318 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:03,420 This is just a total donation because to mess with Ethereum and it ended up being worth 319 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:05,180 like some absurd amount of money. 320 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:09,820 But I have no, I tried to get it and I have saved the folder if anyone out there is listening 321 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:15,420 and they want to try and offer me 10% of my own money or whatever. 322 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:20,380 I have the folder that has the passwords and the key and the directory and I have no idea 323 00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:21,620 what I did and it doesn't work. 324 00:23:21,620 --> 00:23:26,460 When I type the stuff in, it just says like, please enter your password or it's just like, 325 00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:27,460 I don't know. 326 00:23:27,460 --> 00:23:31,060 I put all types of different things in there to try to figure out what happened. 327 00:23:31,060 --> 00:23:33,500 So if anyone wants to give that a shot, you can. 328 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:37,980 I don't know what Ethereum Classic is worth these days. 329 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:45,140 The real question for me is what, you know, I wanted to tweet, I wanted to tweet because 330 00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:49,180 I asked that other question, that thing that really blew up about if Bitcoin maximalism 331 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:54,780 was dead and that turned into a big Twitter event. 332 00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:59,540 But I was saying like the only person, you know, there's only one person who can help 333 00:23:59,540 --> 00:24:05,260 me, which is that, which is Vitalik Buterin, he's the one who can define it again. 334 00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:12,180 He defined it once and I can ask him to define it again and then I will know what maximalism 335 00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:15,220 is and who it still applies to. 336 00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:23,820 Because I asked Luke Dasher and he said, no, I'm not a maximalist because sometimes I 337 00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:26,340 take years and years of payment. 338 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:29,180 I know, that doesn't make any sense. 339 00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:32,780 The original meaning I thought was pretty clear. 340 00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:38,900 It was that, well you have to see this, what one thing I think is happening is that new 341 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:42,500 people are showing up and they don't know like the story. 342 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:47,140 The story is that Satoshi did all this work to do something that everyone thought was 343 00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:51,720 like impossible, and he created Bitcoin from scratch. 344 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:57,700 And then kind of created Namecoin, which also was like, I do think that the technology idea 345 00:24:57,700 --> 00:25:00,500 of Namecoin, or of a Namecoin. 346 00:25:00,953 --> 00:25:03,953 It's a great idea and its day will come, probably soon. 347 00:25:03,953 --> 00:25:15,953 And then you had Charlie Lee who copy-pasted the code, which took no effort whatsoever and he changed like two parameters. 348 00:25:15,953 --> 00:25:22,953 And then you had Litecoin. So that is, he had every right to do that. 349 00:25:23,953 --> 00:25:29,953 I don't know why the community put up with it at all, because I kind of regarded it as sort of insulting to Satoshi, 350 00:25:29,953 --> 00:25:36,953 that you could automatically have like two categories of things, Bitcoin and Litecoin, 351 00:25:36,953 --> 00:25:41,953 because one person did all this marginal effort to create it, it was immense. 352 00:25:41,953 --> 00:25:47,953 And the marginal effort to create Litecoin was very de minimis, basically nothing. 353 00:25:48,953 --> 00:25:57,953 So, what followed was mostly more like that, where people putting in basically no effort, 354 00:25:57,953 --> 00:26:01,953 but being treated kind of in the same category as Bitcoin. 355 00:26:01,953 --> 00:26:04,953 So this is kind of unfair, jumping in this category. 356 00:26:04,953 --> 00:26:09,953 Then eventually you had stuff that had some use for something. 357 00:26:10,953 --> 00:26:18,953 It was very confusing and weird, but you had stuff like Primecoin, where it would do something. 358 00:26:18,953 --> 00:26:23,953 You know, and you're like, is this worth it? But probably not. 359 00:26:23,953 --> 00:26:29,953 And then you had kind of a version 2.0 of that, where you had stuff that was more complicated at least. 360 00:26:29,953 --> 00:26:35,953 So you had Counterparty, BitShares, Ethereum. That was like 2014, 2015, whatever. 361 00:26:36,953 --> 00:26:42,953 So, the story is a lot of just stuff that was just total junk. 362 00:26:42,953 --> 00:26:50,953 And then the new stuff, BitShares and Ethereum mainly, the new stuff was very, very poorly thought out. 363 00:26:50,953 --> 00:26:55,953 And those people were not – they were really just changing all these things frivolously. 364 00:26:57,953 --> 00:27:02,953 You know, I regarded it mostly as a matter of luck that Ethereum triumphed, 365 00:27:02,953 --> 00:27:05,953 so that people just wanted kind of some alternative to Bitcoin. 366 00:27:05,953 --> 00:27:10,953 Because they were a little worried about, I think, governance, scaling the block size debate. 367 00:27:10,953 --> 00:27:14,953 But basically governance. They were like, who's making the decisions around here, 368 00:27:14,953 --> 00:27:17,953 and what happens if there's a bad decision? We need a competitor. 369 00:27:17,953 --> 00:27:23,953 And they were like, oh, this Vitalik thing, because Satoshi is anonymous, but Vitalik is right here. 370 00:27:23,953 --> 00:27:28,953 And he's like – Satoshi sort of seemed old, because he would talk about Usenet sometimes. 371 00:27:28,953 --> 00:27:30,953 So what is this guy, like 500 years old? 372 00:27:31,953 --> 00:27:33,953 Hey, I talk about Usenet. 373 00:27:33,953 --> 00:27:42,953 And so it was kind of this contrast. I regarded it as basically a matter of luck that it could have been anything. 374 00:27:42,953 --> 00:27:49,953 So what I'm trying to say is mostly maximalism was just this point of view, this observation, 375 00:27:49,953 --> 00:27:54,953 that everything else was just terrible, and that these people, they all had an agenda. 376 00:27:54,953 --> 00:27:56,953 They were all just trying to make money. 377 00:27:57,953 --> 00:28:01,953 That's why I need Vitalik to announce the definition on Twitter. 378 00:28:01,953 --> 00:28:06,953 He's the only one who can help resolve this issue. I never thought I would say that. 379 00:28:06,953 --> 00:28:10,953 But it's like the end of whatever, Back to the Future. 380 00:28:10,953 --> 00:28:13,953 He says there's only one man who can help me. 381 00:28:13,953 --> 00:28:16,953 Let the camera come to Vitalik now. 382 00:28:16,953 --> 00:28:22,953 And he's the definer. He has the whatever. He has the Genesis definition. 383 00:28:23,953 --> 00:28:33,953 So he must now define it as – because all I want to know is if BitRefill accepts Ethereum, 384 00:28:35,953 --> 00:28:40,953 if it legitimizes it as a payment method, legitimizing it as money. 385 00:28:40,953 --> 00:28:48,953 They probably will now that the Maxi has left BitRefill. 386 00:28:48,953 --> 00:28:50,953 No, but they already do. That's the thing. 387 00:28:50,953 --> 00:28:53,953 They even gave a thing about Lightning, and they said – because in the thing, 388 00:28:53,953 --> 00:28:55,953 this is how this came on my radar even. 389 00:28:55,953 --> 00:28:59,953 The guy, Sergey or someone was saying, 390 00:28:59,953 --> 00:29:04,953 Lightning accounts is now up to about 5% of our revenue, 391 00:29:04,953 --> 00:29:07,953 which is about as much as we do in Ethereum revenue. 392 00:29:07,953 --> 00:29:09,953 And I was like, oh, what? 393 00:29:09,953 --> 00:29:13,953 The place where John Carvalho works has been accepting Ethereum this whole time, 394 00:29:14,953 --> 00:29:19,953 gaining revenue from it, and legitimizing it as money by accepting it as a payment. 395 00:29:19,953 --> 00:29:23,953 So now people are trying to spin this around, and they say we're doing them. 396 00:29:23,953 --> 00:29:28,953 It's actually a bad thing because we take it, and we sell it. 397 00:29:28,953 --> 00:29:30,953 You know, I know. Isn't that crazy? 398 00:29:30,953 --> 00:29:35,953 And they're saying, sure, we legitimize it as money, and we accept it. 399 00:29:35,953 --> 00:29:40,953 But when we sell it, so we're like taking it out of the ecosystem or something. 400 00:29:41,953 --> 00:29:43,953 We dump it or something. 401 00:29:43,953 --> 00:29:45,953 It's like, what is going on? 402 00:29:45,953 --> 00:29:47,953 That is not how anything works. 403 00:29:47,953 --> 00:29:51,953 That is not consistent with the original maximalist idea where you would just be like, 404 00:29:51,953 --> 00:29:56,953 of course I won't touch any of that because you wouldn't even think about it 405 00:29:56,953 --> 00:29:59,953 because it's completely illegitimate. 406 00:29:59,953 --> 00:30:01,953 It would be a thing that would get you laughed at. 407 00:30:01,953 --> 00:30:02,953 You'd be disqualified. 408 00:30:02,953 --> 00:30:04,953 You'd be laughed out of a conversation if you brought up – 409 00:30:05,953 --> 00:30:09,953 Like what if we traveled back in time to like 2015, 410 00:30:09,953 --> 00:30:16,953 and someone at Blockstream said, oh, we should do a data feed for our BitShares. 411 00:30:16,953 --> 00:30:18,953 I mean like people would just be laughing. 412 00:30:18,953 --> 00:30:23,953 That person would probably be fired. 413 00:30:23,953 --> 00:30:26,953 Fair market there. 414 00:30:26,953 --> 00:30:31,953 So, you know, but I'm not saying that anything that anyone is doing is wrong. 415 00:30:31,953 --> 00:30:34,953 I would just like to know what the definition is anymore. 416 00:30:34,953 --> 00:30:35,953 What is the definition? 417 00:30:35,953 --> 00:30:36,953 I don't know. 418 00:30:36,953 --> 00:30:38,953 That's why we need Vitalik. 419 00:30:38,953 --> 00:30:40,953 Vitalik is the only one who can help. 420 00:30:40,953 --> 00:30:43,953 He has to give us the measurement. 421 00:30:43,953 --> 00:30:52,953 I publicly call upon him to define Bitcoin maximalism to a greater degree of specificity 422 00:30:52,953 --> 00:30:54,953 than in the past. 423 00:30:54,953 --> 00:30:56,953 What exactly does it mean? 424 00:30:56,953 --> 00:30:58,953 The world needs to know. 425 00:30:58,953 --> 00:31:00,953 I need to know. 426 00:31:00,953 --> 00:31:01,953 We need to know. 427 00:31:01,953 --> 00:31:03,953 We'll create a public campaign around this. 428 00:31:03,953 --> 00:31:04,953 Don't worry. 429 00:31:04,953 --> 00:31:06,953 Any definition is fine as long as it's consistent. 430 00:31:06,953 --> 00:31:08,953 I'll take any definition. 431 00:31:08,953 --> 00:31:14,953 And also before we go, guys, Ethereum Classic is actually $6.84. 432 00:31:14,953 --> 00:31:19,953 So what did you buy that at? 433 00:31:19,953 --> 00:31:20,953 25 cents? 434 00:31:20,953 --> 00:31:21,953 25 cents. 435 00:31:21,953 --> 00:31:23,953 I don't know if I should tell you how much I bought. 436 00:31:23,953 --> 00:31:25,953 It was easy to get a lot of it at 25 cents. 437 00:31:25,953 --> 00:31:32,953 If anyone would like to try out Vitalik also, we have your attention.