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Make sure you subscribe, leave a comment, and like this episode.

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Also, read the new BTC-TKVR magazine.

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This episode is sponsored by Wasabi Wallet, Crypto Steals, Shoppin' a Bit, and
SadoDime.

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Thank you for listening.

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Hello there and welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast.

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This is season 14, episode 13.

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And it's the second time in the history of the podcast when I have the same guest in

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the same season twice, because there is something more to add, there's more to
discuss.

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And it seems like Drivechains right now are one of the hottest topics in Bitcoin.

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There's something very serious that needs to be discussed.

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And it also seems like the debates are kind of taking place in echo chambers.

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On one hand, you have Paul who's doing like six hours long spaces on Twitter every
day,

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but he only gets questions from fans.

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And on the other hand, you have these people who go on stage at other conferences
and they

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criticize Drivechains, but at the same time would not have a one-on-one debate with
Paul.

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And I'm trying to equalize a little bit this situation.

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And full disclaimer, I'm not getting paid by LayerTwo Labs.

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I never took any money from anyone to interview them.

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I only do this because I'm personally interested and I think it's a good topic to
debate.

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And I'm happy that Paul agreed to be here.

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I'm sad that once again, I could not find anyone who wanted to debate him on
livestream.

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But I'm going to try to play, you know, because last time I was accused of being
one-sided

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and siding with Paul.

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I'm going to try to be more equidistant, if that's a word, in the sense that I will
try

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not to be basically his friend.

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I consider Paul to be my friend, but at the same time, I'm going to disagree with
him

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today.

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So, hi, Paul.

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Oh, you're muted.

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Okay, here we go.

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I'm back.

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I'm unmuted now.

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Okay, Paul, so since we spoke, there was a lot that happened.

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I think, in principle, I agree with what Drivechains are bringing to Bitcoin, but I
disagree with

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the way in which you're presenting Drivechains.

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And I kind of sympathize with you because you have been doing this since 2015.

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And maybe that this is the only way in which you can grab people's attention.

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You got to trigger them.

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You got to make them not necessarily question their beliefs, but you got to shake
their

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foundations.

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But I think, to some extent, you are your own worst enemy right now.

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That's a commonly expressed opinion.

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Many people, they were against Drivechains, now they want to weasel out of it.

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They need an excuse.

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So they say, okay, wait a minute, what do I got?

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And they're like, okay, the idea is good, but oh, it's Paul's tweet that one time.

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That was why I was against it in the past.

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Yeah, I'm not going to comment on that.

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I see that you have your Bitcoin Takeover free magazine behind you, which you
grabbed

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at Tapcom.

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That's a limited edition, only 75 of them were printed.

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You can show it to the camera.

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I can and I will.

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See, now who's not getting paid?

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It's me.

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I basically told you, you know, show this during the live stream, because I want
people...

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Three.

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Three out of 75.

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I got some others too.

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I have this one, which is older.

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It's more OG.

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Oh, oh no.

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You need to talk so that the camera grabs the image.

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Okay.

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I got some other ones here that I've got.

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All limited edition.

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My Bitcoin library, which is extensive.

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So you're the paid shill right now.

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Yeah, I know.

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Who's shilling who?

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No one's ever going to figure me out, okay?

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They're going to try, but they're not going to succeed.

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How many copies of Seyfedine's books do you have?

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Zero.

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I read it in a store, so I wouldn't have to buy it.

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Don't tell him that.

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47 out of 100.

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Yeah, that's from last year at Baltic Honeybadger.

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And I think this is a pretty good introduction for what we are about to do, because
since

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we last spoke, there were many reactions and I picked some of them.

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Unfortunately, there is no way for me to go through everything, but I can go through
a

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few of them.

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And I think that the panel that took place at Baltic Honeybadger this year in Riga
was

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particularly interesting.

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There were people who expressed some more or less negative opinions there, but they

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were not very precise.

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And I think it's fair that you get the chance to refute some arguments.

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You told me that you haven't seen it.

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I haven't seen it.

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I really haven't seen it.

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You're going to have genuine reactions when people say that you're bringing
shitcoins

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to Bitcoin.

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Yeah.

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Why do people say that?

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It's not true.

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Honestly, I think, once again, you are your own worst enemy and BIP301.

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You're going to find a mention that says that miners get paid in Namecoin, NMC or
something

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like that.

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And anyone who reads that can interpret it as, oh, there's going to be a shitcoin
that

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gets issued and the miners get paid in it.

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Interesting.

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That's weird.

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It's the opposite of what it does.

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But, yeah, I thought that, well, see, the thing with merge mining is very few people

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understand it.

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So I was trying to latch on to anything that, you know what I mean, like Namecoin is
the

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most famous merge mining thing.

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So I was saying in 301, I say instead of that, we have this, they get paid in L1BTC.

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OK, so while I prepare this, because I want to show it to you so you can comment,
what

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is merge mining?

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It's when miners can mine multiple blockchains simultaneously.

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OK, and what's the origin of it?

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Satoshi invented it himself, when Hal Finney and Satoshi were co-inventing a
Namecoin along

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with some other people.

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And they invented it.

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Oh, I forgot to show you this, Paul.

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This is the mug from which I'll be drinking.

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Also, I only see you as an image.

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I don't see your video. Am I supposed to be seen as a video?

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Yeah, you should.

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I don't see it at all.

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Maybe my Internet is not fast enough.

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I don't know what's wrong.

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I see my face on the live stream.

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You can see the Blockstream mug.

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So now there is a spoiler here.

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I'm drinking tea from a Blockstream mug, so you know my biases.

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I have plenty of Blockstream stuff.

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I have a Blockstream liquid water bottle.

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I have the hats. I have the NO2X hats.

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I have the UASF hats.

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I should have won the UASF hat.

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That would have been funny.

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But you don't have Sifadean's books, so you're not a true maximalist.

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I guess not. That's the cutoff.

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You have a cold card?

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I actually had some open dimes and some other stuff.

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I don't. I think I do have a cold card.

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Yeah, I think I do.

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And I have like a Bitcoin swag

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like drawer.

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That's huge.

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I think I don't use it.

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Now, anyway, it doesn't matter.

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I was just trying to take shots at them because they always claim that the OGs use
cold card.

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You can see here in the abstract of.

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Oh, man, I don't see a black nothing.

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OK, let me read it out for you.

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OK, it says, however, traditional merge mining has two drawbacks.

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Yes. The second one is miners are paid on the other chain in alt currency.

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Miners who MM, as in merge mine Namecoin, will earn NMC.

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Someone who reads this might interpret.

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It's a disadvantage of old merge mining.

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I'm talking about a different thing.

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Yeah, but if someone reads this and has no context, they're going to be a bit
confused.

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I know that this is written for developers and the developers who read this are
going to know what this is about.

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But I just wanted to point this out to you, that people will interpret that you're
bringing shit coins to Bitcoin because they try to read the BIP.

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If they try to read the BIP, because most of them just stop at Jimmy Song's
explanations and they end up here and they will say, oh, he's trying to bring Namecoin on Bitcoin and that's a token.

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We don't want tokens.

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Yeah, but the thing about merge mining is it's independent of whether the thing is
an altcoin or a sidechain.

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So you merge mining was invented for altcoins.

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I'm saying here is a version of it that works for altcoins or for sidechains that
works differently.

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So we already have everyone's already merge mining Namecoin.

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Everyone already does merge mine Namecoin.

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Yeah, that's fair.

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They already get paid in NMC.

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They already get paid and it's already it's been happening for the last 12 years.

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Well, I'm not sure how many miners are still running.

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Well, BitMEX research did an article about this and 90 percent of them are.

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But I don't know if that that's what they concluded.

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I think given that it's free, it costs them literally nothing and they get more
money.

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It's only a small amount of money, but I would think that.

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They would do it.

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So what we're about to do next is that we're going to watch the panel from Baltic
Honey Badger.

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But I can't see anything.

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I hope it I hope it works.

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I think you'll be able to hear it when it starts.

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Unfortunately, I will ask you to turn off your microphone when you're not speaking.

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So there's no echo feedback, not echo.

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Yes. And before that, I want to mention who the people in the panel are, because
it's important to give some context.

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There's going to be Peter Todd, who makes some valid comments, I guess.

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There's going to be John Carvalho, who gives me the impression that he hasn't read
the BIP.

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There's going to be Giacomo Zucco.

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My guest, John Carvalho, is on the Unpopular Opinions panel.

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Last year, it was me, Giacomo, Eric Voskuhl and Peter Todd, which I thought that was
pretty good.

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00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:53,180
There's also Ben Ark, who seems to be the most in favor of sidechains.

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Oh, good.

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And there's also Sergey Kovliar, the CEO of Bitrefill.

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And at one point, he explains.

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No spoiler.

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00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:07,260
I mean, I've got no spoiler.

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00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:18,780
I mean, Sergey has a real job with real customers, so I preemptively expect him to
be more rational.

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00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:30,900
He has been saying this for a while, and he said it on my podcast when he expressed
his views on full RBF equals one.

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Basically, he said that by making these changes, we are providing more reasons for
people to use altcoins because of small fees and for certain use cases.

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00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:52,500
It's like, yeah, people are going to use Litecoin or Dogecoin or whatever, not
necessarily as a store of value, but only to make this one payment because it's
cheaper.

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00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:54,540
We can talk about Zeroconf.

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00:12:54,660 --> 00:13:00,980
I think we should talk about it because it's very intriguing because I have my views
on this have evolved somewhat.

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00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:03,660
And now I think they have reached their final form.

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00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:08,500
I think this is useful, but first of all, explain what Zeroconf is.

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00:13:09,020 --> 00:13:09,540
Zeroconf.

201
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Okay.

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00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:20,100
It's harder to explain if you don't know who the audience is, but Zeroconf, when you
send a payment, everyone gets like a notification immediately.

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It says you're being sent money, but it has no confirmations, zero.

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So it's hence the name Zeroconf.

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00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:30,780
Now, there's a huge difference.

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00:13:30,820 --> 00:13:34,220
This is something I didn't understand when I was learning Bitcoin the first time.

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00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:38,260
There's a big difference between having zero confirmations and one.

208
00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:52,300
There's a huge difference because until you have the first one, the payment can be
replaced basically for free and or it's a matter of luck if you broadcast two, kind
of as a matter of luck, which one goes through.

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00:13:53,780 --> 00:14:03,260
And so there's a huge difference between zero and one, and there's really no
difference between like 8,000 and 8,001.

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00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:07,420
But as soon as you get the first confirmation, you automatically get anything.

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00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:10,220
So it's like it's a big, it's a fight to get on the bus.

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00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:13,540
There's only so many seats and you're in line.

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00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:17,180
Zeroconf is you're in line to get on the bus or on the train or whatever.

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00:14:17,380 --> 00:14:18,900
You get on the train, you get on the bus.

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00:14:19,540 --> 00:14:24,380
And then once you're on, the people are fighting over the next bus.

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00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:27,740
But once they get on, you automatically go from having one confirmation to two.

217
00:14:27,740 --> 00:14:37,300
So the only thing that's really at risk, the only thing that's really at where you
have a rivalry with the other transactions.

218
00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:40,660
Is moving from zero confirmations to one.

219
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And Zeroconf is nice.

220
00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:48,940
The idea of Zeroconf is the idea that is that you would be paid, the payment would
go through instantly.

221
00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:52,980
And you just think, well, that would be so great if this went through instantly,
because that would be so convenient.

222
00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:57,660
Or but instead, whenever you make, is this making any sense, Vlad?

223
00:14:57,660 --> 00:14:58,580
It's like whenever you want to make.

224
00:14:59,220 --> 00:15:09,860
Basically, you're using an analogy that was popularized by some big blockers when
they created a mempool visualizer that showed you buses and people trying to get on
buses.

225
00:15:10,140 --> 00:15:11,780
That was a few years ago, I think.

226
00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:17,180
Yes. Basically, when you broadcast a Bitcoin transaction, it goes into the mempool
of nodes.

227
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,180
Everyone stores that transaction.

228
00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:25,860
And there used to be a time when people would assume that the transaction is final
and the destination cannot be changed.

229
00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:30,780
So some merchants started accepting that amount as being final.

230
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:37,100
It was a social consensus without waiting for the first confirmation just to speed
up commerce.

231
00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:40,700
And people like Roger Ver, I guess, really enjoyed using this.

232
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:43,700
And that's why it's in BCH right now.

233
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:56,980
But basically, the Bitcoin philosophy is that an amount of money is not yours until
there's at least one block confirmation and is not secure until you have at least
six confirmations.

234
00:15:56,980 --> 00:15:58,380
That's the conservative approach.

235
00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:13,620
And there are some people who pretend that it's fine to have no confirmations
because they have a degree of certainty that is going to get included in a block
without RBF or any other modification.

236
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:30,900
If I were going to steelman Peter Todd's point of view, Peter Todd is the biggest
hater of zeroconf and the biggest pusher of RBF replaced by fee, which says if you
want to bump your own transaction out, you should be able to.

237
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:38,180
If I were to steelman his view, he would say this is inherently insecure.

238
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:53,180
So we are doing that we're misleading people if we treat it as if it is secure and
we should instead scorched earth, remove it like we should we should say we should
remove temptation.

239
00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:57,100
Basically, we don't want to we don't want to lull anyone into relying on this.

240
00:16:57,820 --> 00:17:02,580
So we should pull the plug on it, just preempt to rip the bandaid off and get rid of
it.

241
00:17:06,020 --> 00:17:10,500
Yeah, I think for Bitcoin, it's better to be conservative and wait for one
confirmation.

242
00:17:11,340 --> 00:17:16,500
Yeah, but I have a new view, which is that there is a technique that actually is
very old.

243
00:17:17,860 --> 00:17:21,260
But it allows zeroconf to be very secure.

244
00:17:22,260 --> 00:17:30,540
The technique is it and we can't do it today, you need either liquid or you need you
need like some other functionality.

245
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:41,180
But any sidechain could easily have it where what you do is you put up some money
like $300 or something, you lock it in a special kind of bond.

246
00:17:42,380 --> 00:17:49,100
And this is a bond and then this thing confirms this thing has like a billion 5000
confirmations or something.

247
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:50,940
So it's highly confirmed.

248
00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:53,620
And you lock up some money over some time.

249
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:55,740
And it's locked up in there.

250
00:17:57,460 --> 00:18:16,580
And what happens is, if anyone whenever you make a transaction, you reference that
like insurance, this bond, and then you say if anyone can prove that I double spent,
you can take me to court basically and say this guy, he signed twice over this
input.

251
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:25,020
He spent these coins twice, and it will either it depends on the details, like it
destroys the bond or it gives a bond to the miners or whatever.

252
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:31,540
So I think it should like freeze the bond for a while and then give it to a random
miner or something.

253
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:41,860
So that and so now any payment beneath it's like the $300, especially significantly
beneath that references the insurance is actually a very secure.

254
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:51,740
And they just need to do the normal thing of waiting like 20 seconds or so to see if
other transactions have been broadcast into the mempool.

255
00:18:51,940 --> 00:19:00,940
Because what you can't realistically do is broadcast like 50 transactions, because
once they're out, they escape into the world and then they collide with each other.

256
00:19:01,020 --> 00:19:03,700
And then everyone's software says, Whoa, wait a minute.

257
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:09,020
And so the merchant will then they will undo, they'll say this isn't the payment.

258
00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:13,660
So as long as you're willing to wait like 20, 30 seconds, which is not so bad.

259
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:16,500
It's definitely good.

260
00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:21,460
See, the annoying thing about the 10 minutes is that's 10 minutes on average between
each block and no one knows.

261
00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:26,060
So every time you try to use Bitcoin, you never get that confirmation.

262
00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:28,620
It's always a 20 minute thing.

263
00:19:28,620 --> 00:19:33,780
So it's a constant amount of time that is 20 or 30 seconds.

264
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:38,220
And this is only situations where where zero conf is insecure, which is a minority.

265
00:19:38,820 --> 00:19:40,620
Almost always zero conf is secure.

266
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:53,460
For example, anything physical where you buy something physically in a store and
your face is on like a camera is zero conf is secure, more secure than for the
merchant and credit card because the credit card they could charge back.

267
00:19:54,460 --> 00:20:04,460
And the and then, of course, zero conf anything that's shipped, like you buy
something on Amazon, zero conf is perfectly fine, because if they if you if you
double spend, they'll just cancel it.

268
00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:17,460
So there's over on the overwhelming majority of context, zero conf is safe, even
like in a case where bit refills, a case where it's not necessarily because, of
course, he's selling gift cards.

269
00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:22,460
So it's a very saleable, very liquid, very liquid thing.

270
00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:28,460
But if we had this idea and he just waits like 20 seconds or so, then it will it
will work.

271
00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:33,460
So he doesn't need he doesn't need he could upgrade the tech stack.

272
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:47,460
And and then this whole debate would be irrelevant because I don't think Peter Todd
would be able to claim that it's inherently insecure and that therefore we should
discourage it because it would just it would just go back to being secure.

273
00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:58,460
Well, I like the idea of waiting for at least one confirmation just for safety, but
I don't feel like this is the right conversation to be had right now.

274
00:20:58,460 --> 00:21:16,460
Everyone's waiting for the spicy stuff, but I mean, it is it's tangentially related,
because if you have it on a sidechain, and zero conf is secure, then actually the
sidechains main disadvantage, which that it relies on confirmations.

275
00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:20,460
It's main disadvantage relative to the lightning network basically goes away.

276
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:30,460
And then the lightning network is just worse in every way than the optional L2 sidechain scaling technique.

277
00:21:31,460 --> 00:21:40,460
So I think I have a couple of questions before we go to that very much hyped debate
that panel from Baltic Honey Badger.

278
00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:42,460
What is the current state of Drivechains?

279
00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:45,460
I know that you hired Luke Junior since we spoke.

280
00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:51,460
And you also commissioned Peter Todd to do an in-depth review and criticism.

281
00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:53,460
How's that going?

282
00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:56,460
Well, Peter Todd has for years and years.

283
00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:05,460
Like since 2014, he said merge mined sidechain, you can search on Twitter and find
he says merge mined sidechains were Greg Maxwell's biggest mistake.

284
00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:08,460
I think he says G Maxwell's in the tweet.

285
00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:09,460
You can find it.

286
00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:14,460
And so he thinks this is a terrible, terrible idea.

287
00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:17,460
But I've tried to figure out why he doesn't like the idea.

288
00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:19,460
And I have honestly tried to figure it out.

289
00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:22,460
And I don't know to this day.

290
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:26,460
And I think it's all just a fake concern troll and none of it is real.

291
00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:28,460
But we had a debate at TabConf.

292
00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:33,460
He was going to we hired him to write a produce a document that says this is the
problem.

293
00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:34,460
You know what I mean?

294
00:22:34,460 --> 00:22:36,460
Like, this is very easy for me to do that.

295
00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:39,460
Like, what's the problem with large blocks on L1?

296
00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:42,460
Or what's the problem with, you know, I did this many times.

297
00:22:42,460 --> 00:22:44,460
Like, what's the problem with Ethereum?

298
00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:46,460
What's the problem with the hard fork?

299
00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:49,460
I wrote an essay, The Case Against the Hard Fork.

300
00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:51,460
So I'm just like, what is the problem?

301
00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:55,460
Put it in this document, you know, that has like a beginning, a middle and an end.

302
00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:59,460
So that it doesn't it doesn't just like this vague notion.

303
00:23:00,460 --> 00:23:04,460
And he still, this was months ago.

304
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:06,460
He still hasn't done that.

305
00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:07,460
I thought we would do that.

306
00:23:07,460 --> 00:23:09,460
And then it's part of it.

307
00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:10,460
He also has to produce this debate.

308
00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:13,460
And then, you know, in order to get paid the second half,

309
00:23:13,460 --> 00:23:20,460
we have to go on Stefan Levera's podcast and discuss his complaint.

310
00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:24,460
But not only that, but we went to the debate.

311
00:23:24,460 --> 00:23:25,460
We do this TabConf debate.

312
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:29,460
Peter Todd is tweeting like the day before, two days before.

313
00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:32,460
He's tweeting like, well, I don't really know how any of this works,

314
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:34,460
but I'll have to ask some questions on stage.

315
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:38,460
And so I don't know how to interpret any of that.

316
00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:41,460
This is why I don't think any of the complaints are just legitimate.

317
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:45,460
I just think they're all just, I don't know what to describe it.

318
00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:52,460
I think it's just like people think the idea is too good to be true or something.

319
00:23:52,460 --> 00:23:53,460
I don't know.

320
00:23:53,460 --> 00:23:54,460
Maybe you can tell me.

321
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:59,460
But how would you interpret that if someone says this is Greg Maxwell's biggest
mistake,

322
00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:04,460
something that was previously referred to as like the Holy Grail of Bitcoin
technology,

323
00:24:04,460 --> 00:24:10,460
just the sidechain, something that Blockstream has raised all this money to support

324
00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:12,460
and develop with all this fanfare.

325
00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:16,460
Remember Brian Armstrong's tweet about altcoins are a distraction.

326
00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:18,460
Everyone should be focused on Bitcoin and sidechains.

327
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:24,460
So this huge idea, and then Peter Todd saying it's Greg Maxwell's biggest mistake,

328
00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:29,460
and then now he's saying, well, I didn't really know anything.

329
00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:31,460
I don't understand the idea yet.

330
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:33,460
I have to ask some questions on stage.

331
00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:35,460
So I don't know how to interpret that.

332
00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:36,460
How would you interpret it?

333
00:24:38,460 --> 00:24:41,460
Well, I can say that today we have lightning,

334
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,460
and a lot of people put their hopes in lightning and ARK and all of these second
layers,

335
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:52,460
and they think that blockchains as a concept should be left behind

336
00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:55,460
and should only be layer once and that's it.

337
00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:58,460
I can understand that philosophy, but at the same time,

338
00:24:58,879 --> 00:25:02,879
I think the best explanation that I read is from Adam Back, who said that everyone
deserves to have their own UTXO to some degree.

339
00:25:02,879 --> 00:25:17,879
And of course, there's going to be a trade off if that UTXO is on sidechains, but
still, you're going to be able to store your coins in cold storage.

340
00:25:18,879 --> 00:25:27,879
Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea that the future of Bitcoin is mostly
custodial, and you're going to have these federations and mints and stuff like that.

341
00:25:27,879 --> 00:25:34,879
I mean, I see the value of that, but it's not necessarily the way that I want
Bitcoin to be.

342
00:25:34,879 --> 00:25:52,879
I think the only problem with that, that would be good enough, and how Finney and
others said things like that, but that has a huge issue where if there is a
competitor that does not have custodial, a competing coin,

343
00:25:53,879 --> 00:26:06,879
because now that coin will be the one that does not have the rug pulls and what you
might call regulation, compliance.

344
00:26:06,879 --> 00:26:16,879
So it's ironic that the people who want, they are the large blockers now, the
custodial people, because this is what people have always said about large blockism.

345
00:26:17,879 --> 00:26:26,879
The large blockers said, we don't care how decentralized the network is, as long as
it's decentralized enough, and maybe only a few people will be able to run nodes.

346
00:26:26,879 --> 00:26:28,879
Remember, that's what they said.

347
00:26:28,879 --> 00:26:31,879
And then we, the small blockers, we said, well, wait a minute.

348
00:26:32,879 --> 00:26:45,879
If we go down that road, we're going to be competing with Visa, because there'll
only be a few big people running nodes, and they will be the only ones who
understand the blockchain.

349
00:26:45,879 --> 00:26:54,879
They'll be the only ones who have access to the UTXO set, and these people all get
served with papers or threatened or something.

350
00:26:54,879 --> 00:27:02,879
So they will go down that road, and those people will embrace compliance and et
cetera.

351
00:27:02,879 --> 00:27:13,879
And not that there's anything wrong with that, but the only problem with that is
strategically, it leads us into competing directly with Visa and WeChat Pay and et
cetera.

352
00:27:14,879 --> 00:27:27,879
And that type of thing, we will lose, because the blockchain is an inefficient data
structure compared to whatever SQL or whatever WeChat Pay is using.

353
00:27:27,879 --> 00:27:31,879
So even on a technical level, we could not win if we went that route.

354
00:27:31,879 --> 00:27:35,879
But if the people who want everything to be custodial, they are the large blockers
now.

355
00:27:38,879 --> 00:27:40,879
Well, to some degree, I don't like that.

356
00:27:40,879 --> 00:27:41,879
It's the exact same thing.

357
00:27:43,879 --> 00:27:49,879
I wouldn't make this equivalence, but at the same time, I see that there's a lot of
money in custodians.

358
00:27:49,879 --> 00:28:01,879
Because it's much worse if someone actually is the custodian, like they lawfully
obeyed all layer one rules, but they are the rightful owner on L1 of the BTC.

359
00:28:01,879 --> 00:28:05,879
That's way worse than just having expensive nodes.

360
00:28:05,879 --> 00:28:08,879
Those people are really going to compete with Visa.

361
00:28:10,879 --> 00:28:14,879
Also, a final remark that I must make before I start playing that debate.

362
00:28:14,879 --> 00:28:25,879
I like that in the last three weeks since this talk became very hot within the
community, or maybe it's more than three weeks, but I lost track of time.

363
00:28:25,879 --> 00:28:36,879
My point is that Drivechains find themselves in this paradoxical situation where on
one hand, they're not going to succeed because other sidechain attempts have failed.

364
00:28:36,879 --> 00:28:46,879
And on the other hand, they're going to be so successful that they're going to take
away some activity from Bitcoin and make layer one not used anymore.

365
00:28:47,879 --> 00:28:55,879
Yeah, and also the same people who say, in the same breath, they'll say Drivechain
is bringing shitcoins to Bitcoin.

366
00:28:55,879 --> 00:29:04,879
But then they'll say also, how naive of Paul to think that he will kill shitcoins in
this.

367
00:29:04,879 --> 00:29:07,879
So is it pro shitcoin or anti?

368
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:13,879
I can't even tell myself anymore what the critics believe.

369
00:29:14,879 --> 00:29:19,879
Yeah, some people have cleaned up their act a little bit, but not everyone.

370
00:29:19,879 --> 00:29:30,879
Some people still repeat the same blatantly untrue stuff, which will be very funny
when eventually word really will get out.

371
00:29:30,879 --> 00:29:33,879
Like every layperson user.

372
00:29:33,879 --> 00:29:42,879
It'd be like telling people that Henry Ford built a car so that he could tunnel into
the earth or something.

373
00:29:42,879 --> 00:29:44,879
People will just be amazed.

374
00:29:44,879 --> 00:29:49,879
And they'll go back and they'll read these old tweets and they'll just think, what
were these people thinking?

375
00:29:50,879 --> 00:30:02,879
Something else that makes me think sometimes is that during the last bull market, we
had this NFT mania with Ethereum and the fees became super high.

376
00:30:02,879 --> 00:30:08,879
And people stopped using Ethereum and went to some alternatives of Ethereum and they
had their own scaling debate.

377
00:30:08,879 --> 00:30:13,879
But now they have like free layer twos that I know of.

378
00:30:13,879 --> 00:30:17,879
There is Optimism, there is Arbitrum and there's another one.

379
00:30:17,879 --> 00:30:22,879
And they're operational and they have millions of dollars that run through them
every day.

380
00:30:22,879 --> 00:30:27,879
And it makes me realize, OK, all they need right now, because all they care about is
fees.

381
00:30:27,879 --> 00:30:30,879
Right. They want to transact fast and with low fees.

382
00:30:30,879 --> 00:30:32,879
And they have the second layers.

383
00:30:32,879 --> 00:30:39,879
They're not super decentralized, so they are bound to get captured by the state if
that's going to happen.

384
00:30:39,879 --> 00:30:54,879
But if they're going to catch another bull run and they're going to have this killer
use case that ends up being promoted by Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton for whatever
reason, there is not going to be any roadblock.

385
00:30:54,879 --> 00:31:01,879
I mean, anyone from the hairdresser to the taxi driver is going to be able to pay
the fees to get on that mania.

386
00:31:01,879 --> 00:31:04,879
And it's going to be huge and they're going to absorb a lot of fees.

387
00:31:05,879 --> 00:31:08,879
And unfortunately, Bitcoin is not going to get any of that.

388
00:31:08,879 --> 00:31:13,879
But we're still going to be on our high horses saying, oh, they're shit coins and
they're not selling money.

389
00:31:13,879 --> 00:31:17,879
And we don't want that. But I guess it could.

390
00:31:17,879 --> 00:31:25,879
Yeah, they'll say, look, it proves how evil Ethereum is that they could trick
everyone into using their software.

391
00:31:25,879 --> 00:31:29,879
That's what they'll say.

392
00:31:29,879 --> 00:31:41,879
I don't know. It's just that I wish some use cases, which are not necessarily
scammy, would pay fees to the Bitcoin miners and not end up on some other network.

393
00:31:41,879 --> 00:31:49,879
I mean, to some extent, gatekeeping how you can use Bitcoin is detrimental to the
long term success of the project.

394
00:31:49,879 --> 00:31:52,879
It's overwhelmingly detrimental. It's very detrimental.

395
00:31:52,879 --> 00:31:56,879
What we should care about is the cost of running an L1 node.

396
00:31:56,879 --> 00:32:00,879
We should gatekeep that and nothing else.

397
00:32:03,879 --> 00:32:08,879
Well, there's a cult of people who say that you should only use Bitcoin in certain
ways.

398
00:32:08,879 --> 00:32:14,879
Yeah, but I mean, these same people, they would hold a gun to your child's head and
tell you that you should only spend your money a certain way.

399
00:32:15,879 --> 00:32:16,879
That's a bad analogy.

400
00:32:16,879 --> 00:32:26,879
But what I wanted to say is that basically, instead of having support for Liquid or
RSK, which you are going to argue that they're not real sidechains, and I can agree
with that.

401
00:32:26,879 --> 00:32:35,879
But instead of supporting that, we ended up having WBTC, which is horrible, if you
ask me.

402
00:32:35,879 --> 00:32:44,879
There's Bitcoin.Custody by BitGo, and it's issued on Ethereum so that they can use
it for different use cases that are not available right now.

403
00:32:45,879 --> 00:32:50,879
And people are going to say, no, but there's RGB that's coming and there's also
separate assets.

404
00:32:50,879 --> 00:33:00,879
But the problem with that, and I'm going to end my rant here, is that basically
there are people who built stuff on Ethereum and they invested millions of dollars
in development.

405
00:33:00,879 --> 00:33:09,879
And they don't want to port the code in a different language to make it available on
a Bitcoin layer where there's not even enough volume.

406
00:33:09,879 --> 00:33:21,879
If it was possible for them to port it one-to-one, to just copy and paste it
somewhere else and deploy it, that would save them a lot of time and money and that
would increase the activity on Bitcoin.

407
00:33:21,879 --> 00:33:25,879
But it seems like people are stuck in this mindset that everything is scammy.

408
00:33:29,879 --> 00:33:32,879
Well, and of course, they know literally nothing about any of this stuff.

409
00:33:33,879 --> 00:33:42,879
It's like when they did this to U.S. citizens after our ill-fated wars in the Middle
East.

410
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:47,879
They would go up to people and they'd say, you know, do you support the war in Iraq
or something?

411
00:33:47,879 --> 00:33:53,879
And they'd be like, where is Iraq? And they have like a blank map or they have like
a map with stuff rearranged.

412
00:33:54,879 --> 00:34:02,879
So they're like, Iraq is on like Australia. And they'd say, could you put a pin in
Iraq and these people in America?

413
00:34:02,879 --> 00:34:05,879
Like on the streets in New York City or something.

414
00:34:05,879 --> 00:34:08,879
They would like go and they'd be like, oh yeah, here it is.

415
00:34:08,879 --> 00:34:15,879
And they would put this pin in the continent of Australia because it said Iraq on
it.

416
00:34:16,879 --> 00:34:20,879
You could do the same thing today where you could go to these people and be like,
oh, do you support Ethereum?

417
00:34:20,879 --> 00:34:25,879
Or you could tell them there's this new Ethereum project coming out. It's called
Taro.

418
00:34:25,879 --> 00:34:30,879
Do you support it? And just describe Taro perfectly, exactly, accurately.

419
00:34:30,879 --> 00:34:34,879
And they would be like, no, it's an Ethereum project.

420
00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:41,879
And then you could flip it again and you could say, you know, there's this new
Bitcoin project, new Bitcoin idea.

421
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:47,879
And just describe anything that was being done in Ethereum. And people would say,
oh, yeah, that sounds great.

422
00:34:49,879 --> 00:34:55,879
A long rant. I guess we got sidetracked from the main topic and we're going to watch
that debate.

423
00:34:55,879 --> 00:35:01,879
But before that, I need to play this ad and then we can go straight into commenting
mode.

424
00:35:01,879 --> 00:35:04,879
It's going to be a premiere for you, Paul. So get ready.

425
00:35:05,879 --> 00:35:06,879
Excited.

426
00:35:07,879 --> 00:35:10,879
Wasabi Wallet is unfairly private.

427
00:35:10,879 --> 00:35:18,879
It's the most advanced and most used Bitcoin privacy wallet with half a million
downloads across Windows, Mac OS and Linux,

428
00:35:18,879 --> 00:35:22,879
as well as thousands of fresh new bitcoins getting mixed every month.

429
00:35:22,879 --> 00:35:28,879
Wasabi makes use of the new generation Wabi Sabi engine to create mega coin joins,

430
00:35:28,879 --> 00:35:32,879
thus mixing your bitcoins with those of hundreds of other users.

431
00:35:32,879 --> 00:35:38,879
For amounts lower than 0.01 BTC and remixes, you pay no coordination fee.

432
00:35:38,879 --> 00:35:45,879
Even if you don't use coin joins, Wasabi Wallet has a native Tor integration and
downloads block filters

433
00:35:45,879 --> 00:35:49,879
to help you keep your network level and public key privacy.

434
00:35:49,879 --> 00:35:57,879
Download Wasabi Wallet for free today at WasabiWallet.io and experience the future
of Bitcoin privacy.

435
00:35:58,879 --> 00:36:04,879
OK, Paul, let's hope that Jitsi has no issue with live videos.

436
00:36:07,879 --> 00:36:10,879
Oh, no, it says, please provide a correct video link.

437
00:36:11,879 --> 00:36:16,879
So I need to figure out another way in which we can watch this at the same time.

438
00:36:16,879 --> 00:36:23,879
We could, you know, whatever, use a, I don't know, Zoom or something or have Keet
also.

439
00:36:23,879 --> 00:36:27,879
Yeah, yeah, but that means that we have to end this call and switch to another one.

440
00:36:27,879 --> 00:36:30,879
And it's live and people are waiting for this.

441
00:36:30,879 --> 00:36:32,879
And for some reason, Jitsi doesn't like.

442
00:36:32,879 --> 00:36:36,879
I mean, what I can do and what I should have done was to download this

443
00:36:36,879 --> 00:36:40,879
and just cut that part and upload it somewhere else.

444
00:36:41,879 --> 00:36:42,879
I can do this.

445
00:36:42,879 --> 00:36:45,879
So give me my Internet is pretty fast.

446
00:36:45,879 --> 00:36:49,879
Let me download this and we can switch to Shinobi's article.

447
00:36:49,879 --> 00:36:51,879
And we can switch to Shinobi's article.

448
00:36:51,879 --> 00:36:54,879
In the meantime, we just switched the order.

449
00:36:55,879 --> 00:36:58,879
And I'm going to do everything else in the background.

450
00:36:58,879 --> 00:37:00,879
So let's go to Shinobi's article.

451
00:37:00,879 --> 00:37:05,879
He wrote for Bitcoin Magazine this piece, which is called Drivechains Are Stupid,
Prove Me Wrong.

452
00:37:06,879 --> 00:37:07,879
Maybe.

453
00:37:07,879 --> 00:37:10,879
So are you able to see it now?

454
00:37:12,879 --> 00:37:13,879
I don't know.

455
00:37:13,879 --> 00:37:15,879
I just see a giant black square.

456
00:37:15,879 --> 00:37:16,879
I don't know why.

457
00:37:16,879 --> 00:37:17,879
Sorry.

458
00:37:17,879 --> 00:37:21,879
Maybe if it's like streaming in progress performance settings.

459
00:37:21,879 --> 00:37:22,879
Let me see this.

460
00:37:22,879 --> 00:37:23,879
Maybe this.

461
00:37:23,879 --> 00:37:25,879
Adjust for best performance.

462
00:37:25,879 --> 00:37:26,879
That's what I'll do.

463
00:37:26,879 --> 00:37:27,879
No.

464
00:37:28,879 --> 00:37:29,879
I don't think that worked.

465
00:37:29,879 --> 00:37:30,879
Hey, I don't know.

466
00:37:30,879 --> 00:37:31,879
But I did.

467
00:37:31,879 --> 00:37:35,879
I already wrote a huge thing and it's in my tweet highlights.

468
00:37:35,879 --> 00:37:36,879
I don't know.

469
00:37:36,879 --> 00:37:37,879
I can't see it.

470
00:37:37,879 --> 00:37:38,879
Sorry.

471
00:37:38,879 --> 00:37:39,879
You could read it to me.

472
00:37:39,879 --> 00:37:40,879
I can read it to you.

473
00:37:40,879 --> 00:37:41,879
Sorry.

474
00:37:41,879 --> 00:37:42,879
I just see a black screen.

475
00:37:43,879 --> 00:37:50,879
But if everyone goes to my Twitter and they can do the highlights, the highlights
are pretty good.

476
00:37:50,879 --> 00:37:52,879
And one of them is this.

477
00:37:54,879 --> 00:37:56,879
And even though I wrote that, I don't think...

478
00:37:56,879 --> 00:37:58,879
I mean, I might as well open it so that I don't...

479
00:37:58,879 --> 00:38:00,879
I kind of...

480
00:38:01,879 --> 00:38:05,879
I think Mark Twain or whatever said if I had more time, I would have written a
shorter letter.

481
00:38:06,879 --> 00:38:08,879
But whatever.

482
00:38:09,879 --> 00:38:10,879
Anyway.

483
00:38:12,879 --> 00:38:13,879
Okay.

484
00:38:13,879 --> 00:38:14,879
So let me read this for you.

485
00:38:14,879 --> 00:38:18,879
We're going to try something of an experiment today.

486
00:38:18,879 --> 00:38:24,879
Drivechains are being proclaimed by some as the savior of Bitcoin, the answer to all
of its problems.

487
00:38:25,879 --> 00:38:34,879
It solves the long-term security budget, allows complete freedom to incorporate new
features into Bitcoin, and presents no downsides for existing Bitcoin users.

488
00:38:34,879 --> 00:38:36,879
Sounds too good to be true?

489
00:38:36,879 --> 00:38:37,879
It is.

490
00:38:38,879 --> 00:38:42,879
The first subchapter, which says Drivechains change miner incentives.

491
00:38:43,879 --> 00:38:47,879
Drivechains introduce a hedge podge.

492
00:38:47,879 --> 00:38:48,879
Hedge podge?

493
00:38:48,879 --> 00:38:49,879
Hodge podge.

494
00:38:50,879 --> 00:38:51,879
Hodge podge.

495
00:38:51,879 --> 00:38:52,879
I don't know what this is.

496
00:38:52,879 --> 00:38:53,879
I'm not...

497
00:38:53,879 --> 00:38:57,879
It's like a giant group of disparate things that are all thrown together.

498
00:38:58,879 --> 00:39:03,879
So they introduce a hodge podge of new variables into miner incentives.

499
00:39:03,879 --> 00:39:19,879
And after introducing that instability, advocates push for users simply adopting a
degraded security model for all new use cases and functionality by using a sidechain in lieu of changing the base layer.

500
00:39:19,879 --> 00:39:23,879
This was excessively long and convoluted.

501
00:39:23,879 --> 00:39:29,879
How is this any different than an outright attack on Bitcoin self-custody?

502
00:39:30,879 --> 00:39:32,879
So can you address this?

503
00:39:32,879 --> 00:39:33,879
Yeah, but what do you think of it, Vlad?

504
00:39:33,879 --> 00:39:40,879
I mean, like, the same people who are anti-DC say, well, eventually everything will
be custodial.

505
00:39:42,879 --> 00:39:45,879
So aren't they the ones attacking it?

506
00:39:46,879 --> 00:39:49,879
Well, yeah, but that's not really addressing it.

507
00:39:49,879 --> 00:39:52,879
You're just trying to present the other perspective.

508
00:39:52,879 --> 00:39:53,879
Okay.

509
00:39:53,879 --> 00:39:56,879
Well, oh, my gosh, this is so dark.

510
00:39:56,879 --> 00:39:58,879
Let me add more lights here.

511
00:39:58,879 --> 00:40:02,879
I can send you the link and you can just read it on your screen.

512
00:40:02,879 --> 00:40:04,879
It's more efficient.

513
00:40:04,879 --> 00:40:06,879
Look on Telegram.

514
00:40:06,879 --> 00:40:09,879
I'll give them a tweet where I replied with it at length.

515
00:40:09,879 --> 00:40:10,879
So I can go through my...

516
00:40:10,879 --> 00:40:14,879
I mean, so the heart of the claim is new miner incentives.

517
00:40:15,879 --> 00:40:23,879
But to me, I think that claim is true as a detail, but false in substance.

518
00:40:23,879 --> 00:40:34,879
Because I compare it to Riot's curtailment credits where Riot came up with this
clever scheme, which I fully support and I think is a smart decision.

519
00:40:35,879 --> 00:40:39,879
And it's very good for energy producers.

520
00:40:39,879 --> 00:40:40,879
It's good for miners.

521
00:40:40,879 --> 00:40:41,879
It's good for energy consumers.

522
00:40:41,879 --> 00:40:42,879
It's good for taxpayers.

523
00:40:42,879 --> 00:40:43,879
It's good for everyone.

524
00:40:45,879 --> 00:40:47,879
Are you familiar with this idea?

525
00:40:47,879 --> 00:41:12,879
Riot has this idea where when the need for electricity spikes unexpectedly in a
certain time, the government of Texas or ERCOT or whatever it is, which is like a
nonprofit run by Texas or whatever, overseen by the state of Texas, they pay Riot to
stop mining.

526
00:41:14,879 --> 00:41:15,879
Okay.

527
00:41:15,879 --> 00:41:18,879
And so because they say to stop using electricity.

528
00:41:19,879 --> 00:41:23,879
Now, technically, that changes miners incentives, doesn't it?

529
00:41:23,879 --> 00:41:26,879
Because this is a thing that didn't exist before.

530
00:41:26,879 --> 00:41:28,879
But now it exists.

531
00:41:28,879 --> 00:41:30,879
So now this idea is out there.

532
00:41:30,879 --> 00:41:33,879
And once it's in use, it directly affects miners incentives, right?

533
00:41:33,879 --> 00:41:35,879
They're being paid not to mine.

534
00:41:38,879 --> 00:41:40,879
You know, right?

535
00:41:40,879 --> 00:41:48,879
So it's a change in detail, but it's not really a change.

536
00:41:48,879 --> 00:41:52,879
Because mining has always undergone dynamic growth and improvement.

537
00:41:52,879 --> 00:41:54,879
The invention of ASICs.

538
00:41:54,879 --> 00:41:57,879
The people reusing the heat.

539
00:41:57,879 --> 00:42:02,879
That was the Bitcoin embassy in Montreal.

540
00:42:02,879 --> 00:42:08,879
They would instead of paying for heat in the winter, they would just run Bitcoin
miners.

541
00:42:10,879 --> 00:42:13,879
So you have whatever FPGAs, ASICs, you have heat.

542
00:42:13,879 --> 00:42:17,879
You have when they did the stranded natural gas flaring.

543
00:42:17,879 --> 00:42:21,879
So this introduces a new way to make money.

544
00:42:21,879 --> 00:42:23,879
But that's not itself anything new.

545
00:42:23,879 --> 00:42:26,879
That has always happened and that always will happen.

546
00:42:32,879 --> 00:42:35,879
Do you think that squarely addresses it or not?

547
00:42:35,879 --> 00:42:39,879
I mean, what do you think about this whole changing miners incentives thing?

548
00:42:40,879 --> 00:42:43,879
But do you agree that Drivechains change mining incentives?

549
00:42:43,879 --> 00:42:50,879
Yeah, they give miners an incentive to care about which portfolio of sidechains,
which sidechains to drop or add.

550
00:42:50,879 --> 00:42:57,879
And the miners are enticed by the fees to support the sidechains.

551
00:42:57,879 --> 00:43:05,879
So in that sense, it does give them something new to do that they get money for.

552
00:43:05,879 --> 00:43:11,879
But again, that's the same as the right curtailment credits or the natural gas
credits.

553
00:43:11,879 --> 00:43:16,879
So I don't see it as I personally don't see it as different.

554
00:43:16,879 --> 00:43:20,879
But maybe this is my maybe it's a mistake for me to talk about it that way.

555
00:43:22,879 --> 00:43:24,879
Why do you say it's a mistake?

556
00:43:26,879 --> 00:43:27,879
Well, I don't know.

557
00:43:27,879 --> 00:43:34,879
Like on one hand, if I say it does affect mining incentives in exactly the same way
that they are always affected.

558
00:43:34,879 --> 00:43:36,879
That just doesn't sound.

559
00:43:36,879 --> 00:43:42,879
When people say it's going to change mining incentives, what they mean is that the
miners will be doing something after Drivechain.

560
00:43:43,879 --> 00:43:46,879
That is like significantly different than what they were doing before.

561
00:43:48,879 --> 00:43:49,879
You know what I mean?

562
00:43:51,879 --> 00:43:56,879
Let's say the miners are someone comes out with the next generation miner, you know.

563
00:43:58,879 --> 00:44:00,879
Does that change mining incentives?

564
00:44:00,879 --> 00:44:05,879
Because now you have an incentive to buy that miner and get rid of your old one
because difficulty is going up.

565
00:44:06,879 --> 00:44:07,879
Like, you know what I mean?

566
00:44:07,879 --> 00:44:10,879
So to me, it does not change mining incentives.

567
00:44:10,879 --> 00:44:14,879
Because it's like if that was going to change it, then everything would change it.

568
00:44:15,879 --> 00:44:17,879
And that can't be what people mean.

569
00:44:20,879 --> 00:44:23,879
merge mining haven't been invented by Satoshi already.

570
00:44:23,879 --> 00:44:26,879
Already in 10 years plus years of continuous use.

571
00:44:27,879 --> 00:44:29,879
So does that make any sense or no?

572
00:44:30,879 --> 00:44:33,879
Partially, but there is this question again.

573
00:44:33,879 --> 00:44:37,879
Why do you think that Bitcoin needs other blockchains to help it scale?

574
00:44:38,879 --> 00:44:40,879
Well, that's a different question.

575
00:44:40,879 --> 00:44:43,879
But I think we may not.

576
00:44:43,879 --> 00:44:45,879
I think right now, one thing I didn't realize.

577
00:44:45,879 --> 00:44:49,879
In the past, I just thought this will make, we have two groups of people.

578
00:44:49,879 --> 00:44:51,879
They're not that happy with each other.

579
00:44:51,879 --> 00:44:52,879
Small blockers, large blockers.

580
00:44:52,879 --> 00:44:54,879
I thought, let's try to get them happy.

581
00:44:54,879 --> 00:44:55,879
Let's try to get them happy.

582
00:44:55,879 --> 00:44:57,879
We can make them both happy.

583
00:44:59,879 --> 00:45:06,879
And I didn't even think of it as a competition over what scaling form was best at
all.

584
00:45:06,879 --> 00:45:08,879
I just thought, some people want their thing.

585
00:45:08,879 --> 00:45:09,879
I'll give it to them.

586
00:45:11,879 --> 00:45:15,879
Now, though, that I'm older and wiser and have spent more years in the technical
community.

587
00:45:15,879 --> 00:45:22,879
It's obvious to me that this idea is probably the best one.

588
00:45:22,879 --> 00:45:24,879
The best way of scaling Bitcoin.

589
00:45:25,879 --> 00:45:27,879
Because it's basically a lightning network.

590
00:45:27,879 --> 00:45:32,879
But where there's infinite liquidity at all times.

591
00:45:32,879 --> 00:45:35,879
And you can receive money without being online.

592
00:45:35,879 --> 00:45:38,879
And with no need for watchtowers.

593
00:45:38,879 --> 00:45:41,879
There's no griefing of the channels.

594
00:45:41,879 --> 00:45:46,879
There's no fee that is based on the amount of money.

595
00:45:46,879 --> 00:45:51,879
There's no sensitivity to L1 fee rates.

596
00:45:51,879 --> 00:45:57,879
So it's just that today when two lightning network clients talk to each other and
they can't even agree on what the L1 fee rate is.

597
00:45:57,879 --> 00:45:59,879
They uncooperative close immediately.

598
00:46:02,879 --> 00:46:08,879
The need to sign, not only be online, but to sign with a hot wallet to receive
money.

599
00:46:10,879 --> 00:46:17,879
These are all huge disadvantages of lightning that just go away if you scale with
this instead.

600
00:46:18,879 --> 00:46:20,879
I think it's a no brainer.

601
00:46:20,879 --> 00:46:23,879
I don't even know what the people are talking about who don't want it.

602
00:46:23,879 --> 00:46:26,879
Now I'm practically, I was a small blocker and I still am.

603
00:46:26,879 --> 00:46:29,879
And I think the block size should be 350 kilobytes actually.

604
00:46:29,879 --> 00:46:34,879
But I'm becoming more of a large blocker now that I see just how completely
irrational.

605
00:46:34,879 --> 00:46:38,879
It's like anything that would make Roger very happy, some of these people have to be
against.

606
00:46:40,879 --> 00:46:42,879
It's funny that you say that.

607
00:46:43,879 --> 00:46:49,879
The so-called technical elite, the meritocracy is completely corrupt.

608
00:46:51,879 --> 00:46:57,879
It's funny that you came to this conclusion and people are going to call you
literally Roger Veer in the comments.

609
00:46:58,879 --> 00:47:05,879
But you're going to have a surprise when we watch the debate, which by the way, I
cut down exactly that segment.

610
00:47:05,879 --> 00:47:09,879
It's being rendered right now by my video editing software.

611
00:47:09,879 --> 00:47:12,879
And then I have to upload it on YouTube so we can watch it.

612
00:47:12,879 --> 00:47:15,879
I can make this happen in the background.

613
00:47:15,879 --> 00:47:17,879
I'm super happy about it.

614
00:47:18,879 --> 00:47:23,879
But you're going to have a nice surprise by the end of this debate that we're going
to watch.

615
00:47:23,879 --> 00:47:27,879
But let's move on to the next point because that's what we said we would do.

616
00:47:27,879 --> 00:47:30,879
Just analyze Shinobi's input.

617
00:47:30,879 --> 00:47:33,879
Yeah, but do you really feel like I've addressed the first point or what?

618
00:47:34,879 --> 00:47:43,879
It does literally in details change mining incentives, but that's misleading because
mining incentives literally change every single day.

619
00:47:44,879 --> 00:47:52,879
Whenever anyone has a cheaper source of power, you as a miner, you are constantly
affected by what all the rival miners do.

620
00:47:53,879 --> 00:47:57,879
And this is really, really, really different from merely running a full node.

621
00:47:57,879 --> 00:48:03,879
So I'm saying we have to protect the decentralization of Bitcoin, which is the cost
of running the L1 full node.

622
00:48:06,879 --> 00:48:13,879
Trying to protect miners by letting them have small costs, like low fixed costs or
low costs, that is a waste of time.

623
00:48:13,879 --> 00:48:16,879
And that is actually just against proof of work anyway.

624
00:48:16,879 --> 00:48:18,879
It's just saying that you want it to be easy to find a block.

625
00:48:18,879 --> 00:48:23,879
Then you're just saying you want to remove the upward difficulty adjustments from
Bitcoin.

626
00:48:23,879 --> 00:48:25,879
You want to remove proof of work from Bitcoin.

627
00:48:25,879 --> 00:48:29,879
You hate proof of work and you hate Bitcoin, basically.

628
00:48:31,879 --> 00:48:35,879
You want something that's a complete such a different idea that it might as well be
something else.

629
00:48:37,879 --> 00:48:48,879
Yeah, but at the same time, you're explaining that making ASIC miners more efficient
is similar with providing extra incentives for miners, which are different concepts.

630
00:48:48,879 --> 00:48:49,879
But OK, that's true.

631
00:48:49,879 --> 00:48:53,879
But isn't it just it's like it's all about profit maximization.

632
00:48:53,879 --> 00:48:56,879
So it's whether or not they bring the costs down or the revenues up.

633
00:48:56,879 --> 00:48:58,879
It makes literally no difference, right?

634
00:48:58,879 --> 00:49:04,879
If you save ten dollars of costs versus you extract ten dollars more of revenue,
it's the same thing.

635
00:49:06,879 --> 00:49:08,879
From an economic point of view, I can agree with you.

636
00:49:08,879 --> 00:49:15,879
But technically, you're adding extra incentives for miners to take fees from
somewhere else.

637
00:49:15,879 --> 00:49:24,879
Well, it's kind of weird, though, because what if I invented an ASIC that instead of
saving ten dollars, somehow induced transaction fees to go up by ten dollars?

638
00:49:24,879 --> 00:49:28,879
And then to me, it's really not.

639
00:49:28,879 --> 00:49:30,879
But I don't know. I guess maybe this is a miscommunication.

640
00:49:30,879 --> 00:49:33,879
We should get someone else to communicate this idea a different way, maybe.

641
00:49:34,879 --> 00:49:42,879
Because changing mining incentives to me would be like before the miners just sort
transactions on L1.

642
00:49:42,879 --> 00:49:54,879
And now they have like incentive to like I don't even like what do people think that
the miners are doing right now?

643
00:49:54,879 --> 00:49:56,879
Like that's my question to those people.

644
00:50:00,935 --> 00:50:04,495
Well, they, I don't know, blocks and they take the fees.

645
00:50:05,015 --> 00:50:09,815
I know, but that's all they do under in Drivechain also, because of BIP300/301.

646
00:50:09,815 --> 00:50:16,095
They're just including a fee that pays a high transaction fee. They're also I guess,
choosing

647
00:50:16,095 --> 00:50:21,655
which sidechains are activated and not, but they already activate soft forks. Also,
every

648
00:50:21,655 --> 00:50:26,175
single soft fork is activated by the miners. And must be, that's another weird

649
00:50:26,175 --> 00:50:31,975
misconception that the miners are irrelevant to soft fork activation, but that is
simply

650
00:50:31,975 --> 00:50:32,335
false.

651
00:50:32,335 --> 00:50:33,575
Activated by users.

652
00:50:34,335 --> 00:50:35,695
Yeah, it's simply false.

653
00:50:35,695 --> 00:50:36,135
It's not.

654
00:50:37,655 --> 00:50:45,575
The issue is a misunderstanding of what it would mean to, but it doesn't, but I
think it's a

655
00:50:45,575 --> 00:50:49,975
moot point, but it doesn't matter because, but I can, we can go into it in detail.
And again,

656
00:50:49,975 --> 00:50:54,815
it's in my highlighted tweets, but it's not a coincidence that every soft fork has

657
00:50:54,815 --> 00:51:02,935
activated via the miners. It's also the fact that if you break, it's a hard fork. If
you

658
00:51:02,935 --> 00:51:09,135
break a rule, like if you break, if you move the block size up, you're breaking the
block

659
00:51:09,135 --> 00:51:18,095
size limit rule. If you break the heaviest chain rule, that is also a hard fork.

660
00:51:18,095 --> 00:51:25,055
So it's the whole thing's through and through is sort of incorrect. And this is not
to imply

661
00:51:25,055 --> 00:51:29,735
that the miners are running the show. They are not, they are the security guards and
the

662
00:51:29,735 --> 00:51:40,695
people. It's very important that miners not be running things, but, but it's also
just the

663
00:51:40,695 --> 00:51:49,495
literal truth of what, how soft fork activates, inevitably involves the miners
participating.

664
00:51:53,015 --> 00:51:59,335
Yeah, let's go to the next point from Shinobi's article, which says existing
sidechains have no

665
00:51:59,335 --> 00:52:05,655
adoption. There have been different design proposals for sidechains over the years,
but the

666
00:52:05,655 --> 00:52:11,335
only currently deployed ones are run by federations, Liquid and RSK, both of which
have

667
00:52:11,335 --> 00:52:16,455
failed to gain any meaningful level of adoption since they weren't deployed. And I
should also

668
00:52:16,455 --> 00:52:25,735
show the screen. Okay. Does this mean sidechains are not worth continued development
effort, or

669
00:52:25,735 --> 00:52:31,535
are they worth it? And the failure of federated chains to be adopted is simply the
result of

670
00:52:31,535 --> 00:52:34,655
shortcomings in that specific sidechain design.

671
00:52:36,055 --> 00:52:46,055
Screwed up my microphone here. And one second. Okay, so the, yeah, of course, I've
heard it like

672
00:52:46,055 --> 00:52:52,975
a million times. The thing is, the federated model is the whole difference between
Bitcoin and its

673
00:52:52,975 --> 00:52:58,255
failed predecessors. So you've heard of like Liberty Reserve and whatever. Have you
heard of

674
00:52:58,255 --> 00:53:08,815
those? Right. And we had those, and they didn't work out because there was a fixed
number of

675
00:53:08,815 --> 00:53:16,135
people that you could take down in order to defeat the network. And that was why
those didn't

676
00:53:16,135 --> 00:53:27,455
work. And that is the difference between Liquid and Bitcoin is also the same thing.
I can tell

677
00:53:27,495 --> 00:53:31,295
that that doesn't make any sense. Did you understand what I said? So like, the
federated model is

678
00:53:31,295 --> 00:53:40,815
terrible. It is just a situation where you have a static number of people who have
no, they have the

679
00:53:40,815 --> 00:53:47,135
ability to take all the coins, but they have no, there's no ability to replace these
people. Okay,

680
00:53:47,135 --> 00:53:49,495
I fixed this now. Sorry about that.

681
00:53:49,495 --> 00:53:53,695
Okay, so is your point that Bitcoin never had any real sidechains?

682
00:53:54,055 --> 00:54:02,815
Yes, but it sort of doesn't matter because even though we should expect the 300 to
outcompete the

683
00:54:02,815 --> 00:54:13,695
federated model, it doesn't like the federated model is, RSK and Liquid are like two
handwritten

684
00:54:13,695 --> 00:54:19,455
books and Bith 300 is kind of like a printing press. Because you can't go if you
could go to

685
00:54:19,455 --> 00:54:30,375
Liquid and you could just give it like the Zcash full node software, then you could
and then you

686
00:54:30,375 --> 00:54:38,095
got out of that a new federation that does what Zcash does, then they would be
comparable. But

687
00:54:38,095 --> 00:54:42,735
that's not what happens at all. So it's not even the same thing. You know what I
mean? Like Bith

688
00:54:42,735 --> 00:54:50,335
300 is this decentralized process that lets you do whatever, whichever thing. Do you
understand

689
00:54:50,335 --> 00:54:58,255
what I mean by that? You can't like there's no like EVM Liquid. Yeah, there's no
Zcash. There's

690
00:54:58,255 --> 00:55:07,135
no Zcash Liquid. Well, how can I use Liquid to make Zcash sidechain tomorrow? How
can I do that?

691
00:55:07,695 --> 00:55:10,735
Well, I guess you should experiment with the elements blockchain.

692
00:55:11,295 --> 00:55:16,255
Yeah, but it's like I just want to just take I want to just copy and paste Zcash
open source

693
00:55:16,255 --> 00:55:24,575
software and create the Zcash sidechain. I mean, after all, Liquid is sidechains or
whatever,

694
00:55:25,215 --> 00:55:30,415
created by the great geniuses at Blockstream, who raised so much money that if they
spent a

695
00:55:30,415 --> 00:55:35,455
million dollars a year, they would have billions of dollars at today's prices.

696
00:55:35,775 --> 00:55:41,775
We had Andrew Polstro, we had Greg Maxwell, Adam Back, you know, so and they know
everything about

697
00:55:41,775 --> 00:55:47,775
sidechains because they're October 2014 paper. So how can it be? What do I do?
What's the technique

698
00:55:47,775 --> 00:55:52,735
for using Liquid if I want like a Monero ring signature sidechain? The Monero has
already been

699
00:55:52,735 --> 00:56:00,415
built. So what do we do? Or my prediction markets project that I also built,
BitcoinHiveMind.com.

700
00:56:00,415 --> 00:56:05,215
How do I use Liquid to connect that sidechain to Bitcoin?

701
00:56:07,855 --> 00:56:10,655
Yeah, what people are going to ask you, why do you want to use Liquid for that?

702
00:56:11,455 --> 00:56:14,975
And why do you want to use shitcoins? They're going to be like, yeah, why don't you?

703
00:56:14,975 --> 00:56:20,895
There's no Monero, there is no for the Monero sidechain or Zcash sidechain, there is
no

704
00:56:20,895 --> 00:56:27,695
altcoin thing for like, there's no other thing that people could possibly buy.

705
00:56:28,335 --> 00:56:33,215
But the prediction markets there is because of course, the point is to buy

706
00:56:33,775 --> 00:56:38,575
like something that you're betting on, like who will win like a sports game or
something.

707
00:56:39,695 --> 00:56:43,455
So there are things you could buy that aren't Bitcoin. Just like in the real world,
you could

708
00:56:43,455 --> 00:56:49,535
buy like, you know, a banana or a car. I wonder if these people do think like,

709
00:56:50,335 --> 00:56:56,335
if a banana was digital, like do they think like every Steam game is a shitcoin? I
wonder where

710
00:56:56,335 --> 00:57:00,335
the line is with that. We should do like some, if we had like some street
epistemology like that

711
00:57:00,335 --> 00:57:07,455
guy does, could maybe crack that nut open. But no, I want to know what are these
people talking about?

712
00:57:08,415 --> 00:57:12,335
Well, some of them are talking about rewriting everything from scratch.

713
00:57:12,335 --> 00:57:15,855
And they say, oh, Zcash sucks because it's inefficient. Why would you want to?

714
00:57:15,855 --> 00:57:20,095
Yeah, we wouldn't want that anyway. Yeah. But what is it though? Are they saying
Liquid is

715
00:57:20,095 --> 00:57:24,175
already doing that thing that we don't want? Or are they saying no one has ever
wanted to do that?

716
00:57:24,175 --> 00:57:26,735
Because then why did Liquid, why was Liquid created in the first place?

717
00:57:27,855 --> 00:57:32,575
No, they're going to say that Liquid was a bad prototype and the technology is still
young and

718
00:57:32,575 --> 00:57:37,615
there's no need to rush. And if you wait long enough, they're going to figure out a
better way

719
00:57:37,615 --> 00:57:43,375
to do it. Like MimbleWimble, I think that's an important breakthrough. They figured
out how to

720
00:57:43,375 --> 00:57:48,415
do privacy in a scalable way. Well, yeah, I don't think actually MimbleWimble does.

721
00:57:48,415 --> 00:57:53,615
Maybe it's changed, but the original MimbleWimble had a defect where if anyone was
just watching

722
00:57:53,615 --> 00:58:05,295
and just logging everything, they would know all the history of messages so the
transaction

723
00:58:05,295 --> 00:58:11,775
cut through would not really do anything. Okay, fair. Let's get to the third point

724
00:58:11,775 --> 00:58:17,615
made by Shinobi. Okay, no, wait, wait, wait. But let's just crack all this. I want
to make sure

725
00:58:17,615 --> 00:58:21,055
that you really feel like I addressed each point. So this first point was this
changing

726
00:58:21,055 --> 00:58:28,895
miner incentives. So do you feel like I addressed it or no? I think you spent way
too much time

727
00:58:28,895 --> 00:58:37,295
trying to deflect and talk about what is the consequence of basically allowing the
status

728
00:58:37,295 --> 00:58:43,855
quo to continue and you're presenting Drivechains as the savior from that custodial
situation.

729
00:58:44,175 --> 00:58:51,295
Well, that's not the miner incentives part. The mining incentives, the miners have
an incentive

730
00:58:51,295 --> 00:58:57,455
to innovate. Would you agree or disagree? Sure, they want to be as efficient as they
can.

731
00:58:57,455 --> 00:59:02,415
If one innovates and the other does not, then what will happen very quickly?

732
00:59:04,335 --> 00:59:08,895
Well, given the halvings that happen every 200 and 10,000 blocks.

733
00:59:09,855 --> 00:59:14,095
It's not just a difficulty adjustment. If one miner is getting really clever and
they get the

734
00:59:14,095 --> 00:59:18,335
invent demand curtailment credits and they invent ASICs and they invent immersion
cooling

735
00:59:19,055 --> 00:59:23,215
and the other miners are not doing that, what will happen?

736
00:59:25,535 --> 00:59:30,495
They're going to drive them away unless there's some ideological mining with people
mining for

737
00:59:30,495 --> 00:59:34,895
the sake of it. Well, that's no different than altruism. So if there's a budget for
that,

738
00:59:34,895 --> 00:59:38,095
then it will take them as far as until they run out of money to burn.

739
00:59:40,895 --> 00:59:44,575
Miners have an incentive to innovate. They would innovate on,

740
00:59:44,575 --> 00:59:48,815
and they had not only have they innovated on reducing costs, but they also innovate
in

741
00:59:48,815 --> 00:59:53,775
increasing revenue. That and Satoshi invented merge mining and many of them,

742
00:59:53,775 --> 01:00:01,695
whatever slush pool or brains as it's called now, they do that. And so according to
BitMEX

743
01:00:01,695 --> 01:00:04,975
research, you can look at their article. Lots of people are doing it. And

744
01:00:05,695 --> 01:00:09,695
miners do all kinds of things to generate more revenue.

745
01:00:12,975 --> 01:00:19,375
Sometimes I think the miners don't have as much of a technical knowledge of what's
in the long

746
01:00:19,375 --> 01:00:28,495
run best interest of their own industry that they participate in, which is because
it's very,

747
01:00:28,495 --> 01:00:33,855
very difficult to have that kind of technical knowledge. And it's, but miners
certainly are,

748
01:00:33,855 --> 01:00:38,655
you know, they have invested a lot, you know, a lot of money, invested an enormous
amount of money,

749
01:00:38,655 --> 01:00:44,575
and they are very serious people. They want Bitcoin to succeed. And I think they
don't always

750
01:00:44,575 --> 01:00:50,575
know. They don't always do like what I personally would do. But, and I think that
happened during

751
01:00:50,575 --> 01:00:56,815
the block size war where they, they just decided to try something or whatever under
suspicious

752
01:00:56,815 --> 01:01:04,575
circumstances, but, but I, they have always innovated and they, if they stop, they
will die.

753
01:01:04,575 --> 01:01:12,975
So. Okay. So what's your point here? That my point is it doesn't Drivechain, just
merge mining. And

754
01:01:12,975 --> 01:01:20,095
in fact, 301 means that they don't even do it's it reduces, it removes, it
transforms the old change

755
01:01:20,655 --> 01:01:27,055
merge mining invented by Satoshi. 301 transforms that into just including
transactions that pay a

756
01:01:27,055 --> 01:01:35,215
lot of fees on L1. As for 300, it does add an incentive for miners to curate the
list

757
01:01:35,215 --> 01:01:38,655
of sidechains. Like they're like, they like, they own a movie theater or something.
They say,

758
01:01:38,655 --> 01:01:44,255
oh, we're playing these sidechains. But if they do a better job, then they collect
more fees.

759
01:01:44,255 --> 01:01:48,895
They collect the more valuable coin. If they do a bad job, they collect less. So

760
01:01:52,175 --> 01:01:56,015
it's no different than I point out that they do lots of other things, such as when
they would

761
01:01:56,015 --> 01:02:01,295
use to activate soft forks with BIP9. They would do things and they sponsor people.

762
01:02:02,015 --> 01:02:06,335
Miners will hire people to just show Bitcoin, like to hire whatever, Pierre Rochard.

763
01:02:07,855 --> 01:02:12,095
Another, probably another mistake, but they, the point is they pay

764
01:02:14,735 --> 01:02:21,295
money to help Bitcoin. They sponsor things. A miner sponsored various, I don't
remember

765
01:02:21,295 --> 01:02:25,455
exactly which ones they were the top tier sponsor for, but the scaling Bitcoin was

766
01:02:26,655 --> 01:02:30,175
in part sponsored by miners. Miners sponsor conferences, miners do things

767
01:02:30,815 --> 01:02:37,855
to increase the revenue of their operation. So this is no different than that. It
undoes

768
01:02:37,855 --> 01:02:42,015
the merge mining change actually, which was invented by Satoshi in 2010.

769
01:02:43,455 --> 01:02:46,655
The second one is about the sidechains that have no adoption.

770
01:02:48,175 --> 01:02:54,015
Liquid and RSK, Liquid especially is not, is not a sidechain because the federated
model,

771
01:02:54,015 --> 01:02:59,055
the federated model is you have fixed set of custodians who can steal instantly. You
have no,

772
01:03:00,015 --> 01:03:08,335
you have no control in it over the, there's no process. There's no decentralized
process that,

773
01:03:09,775 --> 01:03:15,775
that harmonizes the interests of the different groups. So it's the difference
between being

774
01:03:15,775 --> 01:03:23,455
like having like a trial by jury, the randomly selected jury and having just one
barbaric,

775
01:03:24,255 --> 01:03:28,575
you know, kangaroo court where the judge can just execute anyone he doesn't like.

776
01:03:30,015 --> 01:03:35,295
It's the difference between Liberty Reserve and Bitcoin. It's the difference between
success and

777
01:03:35,295 --> 01:03:41,215
failure. The people who admit who don't, the reason this knowledge has spread very
slowly

778
01:03:41,215 --> 01:03:47,935
is because of the ongoing failure of the basically Blockstream who, who initially

779
01:03:47,935 --> 01:03:54,415
championed this idea and then they backed off of it and they backed off of it and
then they had to

780
01:03:54,415 --> 01:03:59,135
have this, the word sidechain had to like mean something. So it came to mean

781
01:04:00,735 --> 01:04:09,535
an 11 or 15 multisig. The actual Liquid sidechain itself had like an error where

782
01:04:10,415 --> 01:04:15,375
the Blockstream itself could abscond with all the money and then this was then
caught and then this

783
01:04:15,375 --> 01:04:19,535
went back and forth over the, whether or not this was a bug or it was disclosed the
right way or

784
01:04:19,535 --> 01:04:23,375
how long it had been happening or whether or not it was a big deal. And a lot of
people pointed

785
01:04:23,375 --> 01:04:30,175
fingers at each other and say, this is. Okay. At this point, he produced an argument
that was

786
01:04:30,175 --> 01:04:36,335
presented to me by Luke Dashjr. on Twitter. Okay, great. He came back to Twitter.
He basically told

787
01:04:36,335 --> 01:04:41,855
me that in the case of Liquid, you can at least sue someone because you have some
entities that

788
01:04:41,855 --> 01:04:47,615
are responsible for this. And basically what this implies is that the security model
that he wants

789
01:04:48,255 --> 01:04:54,655
is that the state is the last judge, the last resort. Right. Of course, it's exactly
upside

790
01:04:54,655 --> 01:04:59,535
down of what normally would be considered the cypherpunk thing, which is that, okay,
if we're,

791
01:04:59,535 --> 01:05:04,095
if all was, if it's going to be lawsuit based, then why have a blockchain at all? So
again,

792
01:05:04,095 --> 01:05:07,375
these people have flipped and become the large blockers. Unfortunately, I don't even
know if

793
01:05:07,375 --> 01:05:13,135
they realize that this is what they've done. You don't want it to be like that at
all. And in fact,

794
01:05:13,135 --> 01:05:18,655
no one can sue Liquid because even though the security model expressly relies

795
01:05:20,655 --> 01:05:26,495
on them being geographically distributed and having no common interests, like no,

796
01:05:26,495 --> 01:05:31,055
no ability to collude. And it relies on their reputation.

797
01:05:32,975 --> 01:05:38,495
No one can put in the list who the 15 people are. They link to the Liquid Federation
members,

798
01:05:38,495 --> 01:05:43,775
which has literally not a list that has nothing to do with, nothing to do with who
the 15 key

799
01:05:43,775 --> 01:05:49,215
holders are. So no one knows who these people are, let alone how the key ceremony
was performed,

800
01:05:49,215 --> 01:05:53,855
or if it was performed the right way. Liquid, the software wasn't even open source
until like last

801
01:05:53,855 --> 01:06:00,495
month, you know, which is absurd that it would go until 2023. The transaction fees
do not go to L1

802
01:06:00,495 --> 01:06:06,895
miners. They go directly to a wallet that is controlled by the Blockstream
Corporation.

803
01:06:06,895 --> 01:06:12,175
So this is like, you know, it's like the, it's like the practically turning into the
bad guys

804
01:06:12,175 --> 01:06:17,295
from the whatever, the robot, Mr. Robot Show, or something. It's like this weird
corporation

805
01:06:17,295 --> 01:06:24,255
wants it all to go through them. Then the miners will not be affected. But it's
because they just

806
01:06:24,255 --> 01:06:30,335
control everything. If Liquid had a deal, Liquid would become, it would have the
same effect on,

807
01:06:30,335 --> 01:06:34,815
it would, Liquid would also affect mining incentives. If the Liquid,

808
01:06:37,615 --> 01:06:44,975
if the Liquid, you know, whoever is responsible for that wallet at Blockstream, if
Liquid is

809
01:06:44,975 --> 01:06:49,375
completely closed source centralized, collects the fees, and then just starts
donating those

810
01:06:49,375 --> 01:06:57,295
fees randomly to Bitfury and to Foundry, then it would, then Liquid would also
affect mining

811
01:06:57,295 --> 01:07:05,375
incentives. I think it was in 2018 or 2019 on the stage of Baltic Honey Badger that
Peter Todd

812
01:07:05,375 --> 01:07:11,055
basically burned Samson Mao and told him that Liquid was an attack on Bitcoin. And
if it becomes

813
01:07:11,055 --> 01:07:17,615
too successful, it's going to take away fees and activity from Bitcoin. Well, yeah,
I mean,

814
01:07:17,615 --> 01:07:24,735
so in that sense, people are agreeing that miners, this is the idea that is now
called the security

815
01:07:24,735 --> 01:07:29,295
budget, that we want miners to be paid a lot of money so that the miners are very,
very healthy.

816
01:07:30,015 --> 01:07:34,255
And that we don't want the miners to be easily, if miners are very, very poor, and
they don't

817
01:07:34,255 --> 01:07:40,495
have a lot of money coming in, they will be susceptible to bribes, just shutting
down

818
01:07:40,495 --> 01:07:45,215
threats. Whereas if instead they're getting paid hundreds of billions of dollars,
hundreds of

819
01:07:45,215 --> 01:07:50,895
billions of dollars a year, then they're going to be loyal to the Bitcoin network
and the Bitcoin

820
01:07:50,895 --> 01:07:57,775
user, they're not going to be loyal to some idiot, or, you know, someone who will
try to bribe

821
01:07:57,775 --> 01:08:04,255
them or threaten them. I have a fellow Romanian friend who basically told me that
the best

822
01:08:04,255 --> 01:08:11,135
solution is to wait for more block confirmations if miners start dropping. And
that's his vision

823
01:08:11,135 --> 01:08:16,095
of Bitcoin, basically, that we're going to have. Because it doesn't make any sense.
When people

824
01:08:16,095 --> 01:08:22,975
say that, they mean if there's more like orphaned blocks or there's short reorgs or
something.

825
01:08:23,855 --> 01:08:29,135
But the attacker will attack to just like, they can either just suppress the entire
network

826
01:08:29,135 --> 01:08:34,175
for a period of time, in which case it doesn't matter how many, there is no
confirmations,

827
01:08:35,215 --> 01:08:39,375
or they couldn't do a huge reorg, in which case you also, you don't even know until
after it

828
01:08:39,375 --> 01:08:43,455
has happened. So what do those people think? Those people don't know what the
attack,

829
01:08:44,015 --> 01:08:49,135
what the attack is. I think anyone who says that misunderstands the security budget
problem.

830
01:08:50,975 --> 01:08:55,215
Okay, let me get back to this. Well, basically, you understand, like they say, wait
for more

831
01:08:55,215 --> 01:09:04,735
confirmations, like that would apply in a world where there's often reorgs. Yes.
Yeah. But the,

832
01:09:04,735 --> 01:09:10,335
but the security budget issue just says if it only costs 10 cents a year, if the
only if miners only

833
01:09:10,335 --> 01:09:17,215
making 10 cents a year, then there kind of is no proof of work. So it's like they,
they pay 11

834
01:09:17,215 --> 01:09:20,415
cents a year, and you you've got the whole year. So what are they going to do? Wait
for a year's

835
01:09:20,415 --> 01:09:28,255
worth of confirmations? Well, some people are into that. And the idea was first
promoted by Nick

836
01:09:28,255 --> 01:09:34,255
Sabo, who said that if the security budget is going to suffer, and Satoshi's bet is
not going

837
01:09:34,255 --> 01:09:39,935
to play out the way that he taught, we're going to have to wait for more
confirmations. Because

838
01:09:39,935 --> 01:09:46,415
the other two extremes are yours, which is to create sidechains that are pegged to
the main

839
01:09:46,415 --> 01:09:51,215
chain and have merge mining. The other extreme is Peter Todd's, which is to add tail
emission,

840
01:09:51,215 --> 01:09:55,775
that's increase the block size. So I think that's what it really is, though. And
it's very

841
01:09:55,775 --> 01:10:03,535
disappointing to hear Nick Sabo say something like that, because to me, it's very,
very clear

842
01:10:03,535 --> 01:10:09,135
that this is what people do in their head. They think, okay, I don't want inflation.
And I don't

843
01:10:09,135 --> 01:10:14,975
want a block size increase. And you know, what's even more disappointing is I think
people think

844
01:10:14,975 --> 01:10:22,575
they don't even actually know why. They just know this idea won't make me popular in
Bitcoin. Block

845
01:10:22,575 --> 01:10:28,815
size increase, we don't want that. And in violating 21 million coin limit, maybe
people have some idea

846
01:10:28,815 --> 01:10:34,335
of what that's for. But I think most people just realize, okay, I'll be humiliated
if I say that.

847
01:10:34,335 --> 01:10:40,815
So they have to believe that it doesn't matter if the transactions are only 10 cents
a transaction,

848
01:10:40,815 --> 01:10:47,215
and there's only 2000 transactions a block. And then there's only 1000 blocks, 1000
blocks a week.

849
01:10:48,175 --> 01:10:53,695
So multiply that out, it's still going to be a significant chunk of money. But
that's how much

850
01:10:53,695 --> 01:11:02,335
it's to do a 1000 block reorg. So that's not going to work if there's like, huge,
gigantic

851
01:11:02,335 --> 01:11:09,535
settlement, if anyone has out there is trying to pay. I mean, just just add it up,
look up how much

852
01:11:09,535 --> 01:11:14,735
money is actually paid in a given day. It's hard, it's hard to tell. But I one time
I looked it up,

853
01:11:15,375 --> 01:11:20,335
like 10 years ago, I looked at the forex volume was like $5 trillion of value a day,
which is just

854
01:11:20,335 --> 01:11:27,055
forex trading alone. So maybe that would all maybe not that maybe that wouldn't
happen. That wouldn't

855
01:11:27,055 --> 01:11:36,015
all net down to one. But that just gives you an idea of and that was a long time
ago.

856
01:11:36,015 --> 01:11:42,495
But there's also the Michael Saylor approach to this situation is going up forever,
Laura.

857
01:11:42,495 --> 01:11:48,335
So we're going to double in price before every having so there's not going to be any
decrease

858
01:11:48,335 --> 01:11:54,015
in security ever. Because Bitcoin is going to eat up every currency in the world,
we're going to

859
01:11:54,015 --> 01:11:59,535
take over gold, we're going to take over treasuries, we're gonna end up living in a
world where

860
01:11:59,535 --> 01:12:06,095
everything is denominated and Bitcoin, you're gonna have 21 million and being
divided by infinity.

861
01:12:06,815 --> 01:12:10,735
Yeah, I know. The other way around infinity divided by 21 million.

862
01:12:12,575 --> 01:12:17,055
Right. I mean, I think every dignified person has to ask themselves if they're being
like,

863
01:12:17,615 --> 01:12:23,295
completely brainwashed by again, but long before anyone had ever heard of Michael
Saylor,

864
01:12:23,295 --> 01:12:30,095
and I think it was in 2019, February, I wrote an article where the first security
budget article,

865
01:12:31,135 --> 01:12:38,415
I think I called security budget in the long run. And in it, I assume that Bitcoin,
not only double

866
01:12:38,415 --> 01:12:43,055
but hits the absolute highest price that can possibly hit and then rises at the
highest rate,

867
01:12:43,055 --> 01:12:49,775
which is that it replaces all the broad money in the entire world. And the GDP is
increasing,

868
01:12:49,855 --> 01:12:54,815
it has been increasing at like a certain percentage, like every year, ever since the
data,

869
01:12:54,815 --> 01:12:59,855
for all the years that I could find the data. On average, it's a very trend. And
then the ratio of

870
01:12:59,855 --> 01:13:05,455
broad money to GDP has also moved on a trend. Both of the trends are favorable
towards money,

871
01:13:05,455 --> 01:13:12,655
people hold a higher percentage of their wealth in money, and world GDP goes up. So
you can add

872
01:13:12,655 --> 01:13:20,015
those kind of together and get what is the ceiling of Bitcoin. But even still, it
doesn't

873
01:13:20,015 --> 01:13:26,255
matter. I literally have done these numbers, and it just, in the long run, it
doesn't matter.

874
01:13:29,375 --> 01:13:35,455
Okay, so what's the conclusion that Bitcoin can basically hit that trillion dollar
price?

875
01:13:36,575 --> 01:13:42,015
Well, one thing that people should be able to tell is that eventually, it will have
to zero.

876
01:13:43,535 --> 01:13:51,215
But even if it didn't, it's 50%, 25%, 12.5%, 6. So you're going down by 94%

877
01:13:52,255 --> 01:13:58,575
each time you do whatever it is, like a 16 year period. So it goes down,

878
01:13:58,575 --> 01:14:03,295
even though it takes 100 something years to go down all the way, it's going down by

879
01:14:03,295 --> 01:14:13,935
almost all of what it was every 16-20 years. So every 20 years, it's basically
eliminated again.

880
01:14:14,815 --> 01:14:25,215
And so it can only go as high as, you know, 15-20 million. It depends on other
things, but...

881
01:14:26,575 --> 01:14:31,455
Is that your bullish prediction? It can only go to 15-20 million per coin?

882
01:14:31,455 --> 01:14:35,855
Yeah, but there's another issue with that, which is that I've never actually written
this down.

883
01:14:35,855 --> 01:14:41,135
But I think I should, because it should become a Bitcoin meme, which is, in my head,
I call it

884
01:14:41,135 --> 01:14:46,095
the final rotation into Bitcoin. I don't know why I call it that, but I don't know
if it makes any

885
01:14:46,095 --> 01:14:52,175
sense. But these are the people who, there's no possibility, we're going to get
adoption

886
01:14:52,895 --> 01:14:56,895
of about like half of the world, best case scenario, will adopt.

887
01:14:57,063 --> 01:15:07,263
Half of the world, best case scenario, will adopt. And then we need like the second
half of the people to, but they're going to have to adopt, even though there's no
NGU, because the number will have already hit its maximum.

888
01:15:07,343 --> 01:15:18,663
There was no number go up. So they have to adopt based on it being improving
Bitcoin, improving their lives. So they have to adopt for some kind of feature, like
some kind of...

889
01:15:19,583 --> 01:15:30,583
They have to adopt for something like cheap transactions, or private transactions,
or remittances, or something.

890
01:15:32,663 --> 01:15:42,183
I don't know if I'm articulating this very well, but it's... You see what I mean?
Because the early adopters, they get all the number go up. They're speculators, or
we are speculators.

891
01:15:42,903 --> 01:15:55,663
But regular people are going to say, I missed the opportunity to speculate. So now
the... I have to be a real user, like how we didn't, maybe we didn't make money in
the dot com.

892
01:15:56,543 --> 01:16:10,263
We didn't own shares of Google. But we adopted the internet, because the internet
really is better than calling the restaurant and trying to place an order over the
phone and telling them your phone number and then telling them where their address
is.

893
01:16:10,263 --> 01:16:18,463
And then the pizza guy has to know every address in the town, which was how it used
to be.

894
01:16:20,463 --> 01:16:29,503
But the internet is better. So they have to be real users. They have to be non...
They have to be anti-speculation adopters.

895
01:16:29,903 --> 01:16:42,103
And if we don't have that, if there's two coins where one of them could get that,
get to this last group, and another coin could not, then the coin that cannot, it
will go to zero.

896
01:16:44,023 --> 01:16:45,143
I hope that's obvious.

897
01:16:46,583 --> 01:16:50,023
So basically, you're saying that speculation can only go so far.

898
01:16:50,343 --> 01:16:59,343
Right, it only takes you to the... It takes you to the many steps, but it cannot
take you to the last step. The last step must be that it is actually better for
everyone.

899
01:17:00,063 --> 01:17:09,903
That the end user who's not, who's not saving in it at all. So I don't, you know,
saving is important and whatever, but the... It is doomed if...

900
01:17:09,903 --> 01:17:26,303
The coin will go to not only do... Is it a good thing if there's more uses of
Bitcoin, but without the willingness of people to voluntarily switch because it
improves their lives, they will go to zero.

901
01:17:26,303 --> 01:17:34,783
And a lot of people think, well, those people will come, they'll be so desperate,
they'll need to eat, and they will be forced to adopt Bitcoin.

902
01:17:34,783 --> 01:17:48,223
And it's like, no, because they're using some... That's the whole point of what's
why I say they use the word switch. They are using something else, and they won't
switch unless they find it better.

903
01:17:50,623 --> 01:17:55,423
Yeah, and that's going to come with Taproot assets and RGB whenever they get
adopted.

904
01:17:55,423 --> 01:17:59,343
Yeah, whenever, one day, we'll have that. We'll get that right around the corner.

905
01:18:00,143 --> 01:18:08,863
So a lot of people don't like that type of thing. They say there should be, we
should not, we should not care at all about any use case. We should just be...

906
01:18:12,783 --> 01:18:15,263
It should just be gold, except that it doesn't rot.

907
01:18:15,263 --> 01:18:26,943
Which is good, but again, it's not good enough. The space will get competitive. It
hasn't been... The competitors have been very bad. But that's only because it's
early.

908
01:18:26,943 --> 01:18:33,503
So we are early, and as soon as it'll be, this will be a normalized thing to have.

909
01:18:34,063 --> 01:18:45,983
And everyone, anyone who makes one will, like in 2025, will have a plan to dethrone
because you can make a huge amount of money if you succeed.

910
01:18:45,983 --> 01:18:52,703
If you, if you succeed and you create a business, and you make a lot of money,
you're going to make a lot of money.

911
01:18:53,103 --> 01:19:00,463
Like in 2025, we'll have a plan to dethrone because you can make a huge amount of
money if you succeed.

912
01:19:00,463 --> 01:19:17,183
If you, if you succeed and you create something that gets hyper-Bitcoinization or
hyper-whatever, hyper-Vladcoinization, then of course, it's an unbelievable amount
of money.

913
01:19:17,263 --> 01:19:27,103
The Immaculate Conception thing that people bring up is a problem, but it is not as
big a problem as what we have in Bitcoin now, which is hatred of the user.

914
01:19:27,103 --> 01:19:30,943
That is a much bigger problem than Immaculate Conception.

915
01:19:33,343 --> 01:19:39,743
Well, that's super relative because when you have so many voices and so many people
using the network at the same time,

916
01:19:39,983 --> 01:19:47,823
it's normal for some to want to basically push the use towards a certain situation
that favors them.

917
01:19:47,823 --> 01:20:00,063
And an example is when people were using ordinal inscriptions back in February and
March, were being blamed by El Salvadorians for paying high on-chain fees for their
remittances.

918
01:20:00,623 --> 01:20:10,143
So it goes like this, you know, Bitcoin is for anyone, but not necessarily for
everyone because you're going to have to pay the fee at one point.

919
01:20:12,783 --> 01:20:15,983
Well, I mean, it's a basic Metcalfe's law network effects.

920
01:20:16,943 --> 01:20:31,423
Even if it's not, if you don't think it's n squared, it's definitely n times log n,
where each user makes the network more popular, more recognized, more...

921
01:20:33,423 --> 01:20:35,423
People don't like to have more than one form of money.

922
01:20:35,423 --> 01:20:38,223
They find it annoying, just like they don't like to speak more than one language.

923
01:20:38,223 --> 01:20:40,063
So some people can, but most people don't.

924
01:20:40,623 --> 01:20:42,623
So it's just not...

925
01:20:42,623 --> 01:20:46,383
When you go to Japan, you need yen and you need to speak Japanese.

926
01:20:47,743 --> 01:20:53,983
So if it's small, it will be tough.

927
01:20:54,543 --> 01:20:59,023
It will be tough, especially when all this stuff becomes commonly known.

928
01:20:59,023 --> 01:21:02,543
Everyone knows all this stuff about all the different L2s.

929
01:21:02,543 --> 01:21:03,903
They know all about proof of work.

930
01:21:05,663 --> 01:21:08,863
People know about how to bootstrap currencies.

931
01:21:08,863 --> 01:21:14,543
And yeah, I think there's kind of a time limit on a lot of this anyway, where I
think very soon there will be...

932
01:21:16,063 --> 01:21:22,063
I mean, everything will do like the WeChat Pay model in the back, whatever, Chinese
smart cities.

933
01:21:23,583 --> 01:21:25,103
That stuff is kind of already happening.

934
01:21:25,103 --> 01:21:29,103
So, but yeah, the Ordinal's thing is also...

935
01:21:29,103 --> 01:21:34,943
It reveals that if you don't care about the user, then that, okay, you can get away
with that for a little while.

936
01:21:34,943 --> 01:21:38,463
But then ultimately you lose control of the block space.

937
01:21:38,543 --> 01:21:46,783
So maybe you control some things, but you lose control of other things.

938
01:21:48,223 --> 01:21:49,983
So you say, we don't care about security budget.

939
01:21:49,983 --> 01:21:58,543
But then it's like, okay, but now the miners are going to be loyal to the Ordinal's
people.

940
01:21:59,103 --> 01:22:03,103
They don't even care about people using Bitcoin as money.

941
01:22:04,063 --> 01:22:06,543
They don't even care about how can we get more Ordinal's.

942
01:22:09,103 --> 01:22:13,583
No, I think that was a way to mess with mining incentives.

943
01:22:14,383 --> 01:22:19,583
And I think I've heard this conversation before with Counterparty, with people
trading rare Pepe's.

944
01:22:19,583 --> 01:22:26,463
And there was this talk that if one rare Pepe card is more valuable than the block
reward,

945
01:22:27,023 --> 01:22:28,863
it can mess up mining incentives.

946
01:22:31,903 --> 01:22:34,383
Yeah, but I think this is also a mistake.

947
01:22:34,383 --> 01:22:37,183
Because the same thing can just happen if anyone pays it.

948
01:22:37,903 --> 01:22:40,863
They're eccentric and they pay a huge transaction fee.

949
01:22:44,143 --> 01:22:46,143
But yeah, this is also true.

950
01:22:46,143 --> 01:22:52,863
I mean, I remember Peter Weil was fond of this argument that what will happen if the
block

951
01:22:52,863 --> 01:23:00,143
secures stuff that is much, there's like a whole stock market on an L2 of BTC.

952
01:23:01,663 --> 01:23:03,503
Huge amounts of money is traded.

953
01:23:03,503 --> 01:23:07,743
And so then they will divide, want to divide the loyalty of the miners.

954
01:23:07,743 --> 01:23:14,143
But that's partially why I invented Blind Merged Mining so that the L2 could reorg
independently

955
01:23:14,143 --> 01:23:14,703
of the L1.

956
01:23:16,863 --> 01:23:20,943
Of course, if you reorg the L1, you'll always, you get a guaranteed reorg of L2.

957
01:23:20,943 --> 01:23:24,623
But you could, in my scheme, you can, it's independent at least.

958
01:23:24,623 --> 01:23:27,743
So there's no additional reason to reorg L1.

959
01:23:30,543 --> 01:23:32,383
I think we got sidetracked too much.

960
01:23:32,383 --> 01:23:33,983
Let's get back to Shinobi's article.

961
01:23:34,863 --> 01:23:36,863
We have two more points to discuss.

962
01:23:36,863 --> 01:23:41,103
And then fortunately, I was able to upload everything on YouTube.

963
01:23:41,103 --> 01:23:44,543
We can watch that debate without an issue.

964
01:23:45,743 --> 01:23:47,583
But let's return to Shinobi.

965
01:23:48,143 --> 01:23:52,543
He says in his third point that Drivechains exacerbate the risks of MEV.

966
01:23:53,903 --> 01:23:57,903
And do you want to go on and explain what MEV is?

967
01:23:57,903 --> 01:23:58,543
Yeah, I do.

968
01:23:58,543 --> 01:24:01,983
But I kind of feel like I should first ask you to explain what it is.

969
01:24:01,983 --> 01:24:03,743
Because I know exactly what it is.

970
01:24:03,743 --> 01:24:06,303
And I wrote it in my tweet article.

971
01:24:06,303 --> 01:24:07,743
And I have a great way of explaining it.

972
01:24:08,383 --> 01:24:13,983
But I'm wondering, like, to what extent does it, is it just throwing

973
01:24:15,343 --> 01:24:19,823
like negative word connotation at the idea?

974
01:24:19,823 --> 01:24:21,823
Like, it's kind of tiresome.

975
01:24:22,543 --> 01:24:23,663
Do you know what MEV is?

976
01:24:25,423 --> 01:24:26,943
No, I want you to explain it.

977
01:24:27,903 --> 01:24:30,623
MEV is a miner side hustle.

978
01:24:31,263 --> 01:24:38,383
So if anything that miners get money for, that's not ordering transactions and
ordering blocks.

979
01:24:40,543 --> 01:24:47,343
So if they get paid, if I pay them to do a little dance, then that's MEV.

980
01:24:47,343 --> 01:24:52,383
And if they can extract money by doing something other than order transactions,

981
01:24:52,383 --> 01:24:53,503
just in a boring way.

982
01:24:54,463 --> 01:25:01,343
If I pay them to, like, there's a buy and a sell order.

983
01:25:01,343 --> 01:25:05,743
And they decide, oh, I can make money by changing the order of these transactions

984
01:25:05,743 --> 01:25:07,103
and putting myself in the middle.

985
01:25:07,103 --> 01:25:11,103
Extracting a cut from those users, or usually one of the users.

986
01:25:12,783 --> 01:25:20,383
They are pulling a transaction fee out in a way other than the normal way,

987
01:25:20,383 --> 01:25:22,623
which is just the normal fees.

988
01:25:22,863 --> 01:25:24,223
Normal L1 fees.

989
01:25:24,223 --> 01:25:30,783
Would you say that paying a miner to not include a certain transaction in a block is
MEV?

990
01:25:31,503 --> 01:25:32,543
I guess I would, yes.

991
01:25:33,663 --> 01:25:35,343
If, yeah, I think I would.

992
01:25:37,183 --> 01:25:38,943
What other examples can you think of?

993
01:25:39,583 --> 01:25:41,423
Practically, what is MEV?

994
01:25:41,423 --> 01:25:42,623
How would you describe it?

995
01:25:42,623 --> 01:25:51,023
Like brains, the flush pool, new name, they sell apparel on their site.

996
01:25:53,103 --> 01:25:53,983
That is MEV.

997
01:25:55,423 --> 01:25:56,383
They sell t-shirts.

998
01:25:57,263 --> 01:25:59,183
No, that's exaggerated.

999
01:26:01,023 --> 01:26:02,543
Well, what do you think it is, then?

1000
01:26:02,543 --> 01:26:03,503
Why don't you define it?

1001
01:26:05,343 --> 01:26:07,983
Well, if I were to define it, I would say that...

1002
01:26:07,983 --> 01:26:09,103
Okay, sorry.

1003
01:26:09,103 --> 01:26:13,583
If you simplify the activity of miners and you say that they're only supposed to get

1004
01:26:13,583 --> 01:26:17,423
the block reward and the fee that corresponds to each block.

1005
01:26:18,143 --> 01:26:19,743
And that's everything that they do.

1006
01:26:19,743 --> 01:26:22,463
And they're not supposed to get money from anywhere else.

1007
01:26:22,943 --> 01:26:28,863
So, basically, anything that comes along and messes up with their incentives is MEV.

1008
01:26:28,863 --> 01:26:30,783
And it's an abbreviation, right?

1009
01:26:30,783 --> 01:26:35,103
It stands for mining electric vehicles.

1010
01:26:36,703 --> 01:26:38,463
Well, believe it or not, it actually went through different...

1011
01:26:40,623 --> 01:26:41,583
It was called...

1012
01:26:42,783 --> 01:26:46,303
I think, actually, it's called maximal extractable value.

1013
01:26:46,303 --> 01:26:51,343
But then in the context of proof of work, it is renamed to miner extractable value.

1014
01:26:52,143 --> 01:26:54,383
I don't know which...

1015
01:26:54,383 --> 01:26:57,663
So, it's funny you mentioned that because even the acronym has switched around.

1016
01:26:57,663 --> 01:27:00,783
You should do your own research.

1017
01:27:00,783 --> 01:27:04,943
But the thing is, miners, in order to collect transaction fees,

1018
01:27:06,623 --> 01:27:08,383
they must have a node and a mempool.

1019
01:27:08,383 --> 01:27:09,983
Someone has to have a node and a mempool.

1020
01:27:11,503 --> 01:27:14,303
Check every transaction to make sure that it's valid.

1021
01:27:14,303 --> 01:27:17,663
Because they only collect money for valid transactions.

1022
01:27:17,663 --> 01:27:19,423
And they cannot collect double spends.

1023
01:27:19,423 --> 01:27:20,383
They cannot double dip.

1024
01:27:20,943 --> 01:27:24,623
If they double dip and they mine a block, it will be an invalid block and they'll
get nothing.

1025
01:27:25,743 --> 01:27:25,983
Right?

1026
01:27:27,743 --> 01:27:28,063
Okay.

1027
01:27:29,103 --> 01:27:31,183
So, it's not just like, oh, they just collect a block.

1028
01:27:31,183 --> 01:27:32,783
They mine a block and collect a fee.

1029
01:27:32,783 --> 01:27:40,063
They must participate in choosing the transactions that will be included in the next
block.

1030
01:27:40,063 --> 01:27:43,023
Because that's how they maximize their fee revenue.

1031
01:27:43,023 --> 01:27:50,303
So, it's really just a matter of taste as to what algorithm they run to maximize
their fee revenue.

1032
01:27:50,943 --> 01:27:57,503
But I suppose you could say, if it's just only sorting them based on their fee per
byte,

1033
01:27:57,503 --> 01:28:02,543
L1 fee per byte and nothing else, then it's not MEV.

1034
01:28:02,543 --> 01:28:05,423
It's just normal transaction fee revenue.

1035
01:28:05,423 --> 01:28:08,783
But if they do anything else, like if they try to double spend Satoshi Dice,

1036
01:28:08,783 --> 01:28:12,383
or if they try to double spend a rare Pepe that's worth a ton.

1037
01:28:13,503 --> 01:28:17,983
If they do anything else, anything else that earns them more money,

1038
01:28:18,063 --> 01:28:21,663
including selling t-shirts on their website, then that is MEV.

1039
01:28:23,663 --> 01:28:25,503
And including the riot curtailment credits.

1040
01:28:27,503 --> 01:28:30,703
I guess that's too broad, but an example of MEV.

1041
01:28:30,703 --> 01:28:32,623
It is too broad, but that's what it is.

1042
01:28:32,623 --> 01:28:34,623
That's why I just named it.

1043
01:28:34,623 --> 01:28:38,303
Is when Woody basically paid, what's the name of the mining pool?

1044
01:28:39,103 --> 01:28:42,223
The out of band $4,000 to get the giant inscription.

1045
01:28:42,223 --> 01:28:44,223
For that four megabyte block, yes.

1046
01:28:44,223 --> 01:28:48,943
That's MEV, because it goes beyond what's happening on the Bitcoin network.

1047
01:28:48,943 --> 01:28:53,023
And there's also MEV that's going to be added to mempool.space.

1048
01:28:53,583 --> 01:28:58,463
They want to have this service where you can make a lightning transaction to pay the
miner

1049
01:28:59,023 --> 01:29:03,423
to basically pick up your...

1050
01:29:03,423 --> 01:29:04,063
Yeah, exactly.

1051
01:29:04,063 --> 01:29:08,463
This is a very old idea that even in Jihan Wu's day that was done,

1052
01:29:08,463 --> 01:29:11,823
where if you were stuck, this was before good fee bumping.

1053
01:29:12,783 --> 01:29:15,023
And almost even before child pays for parent.

1054
01:29:15,023 --> 01:29:19,503
It used to be the case that if you broadcast a transaction,

1055
01:29:19,503 --> 01:29:22,463
you pay too small a fee, you were screwed.

1056
01:29:22,463 --> 01:29:25,823
Because all of your inputs were frozen, basically.

1057
01:29:26,943 --> 01:29:32,543
And if you tried to broadcast a new version that had a higher fee,

1058
01:29:33,183 --> 01:29:36,143
it would count as a double spend and you would get kicked off the network.

1059
01:29:36,543 --> 01:29:42,863
So you used to be able to go to Bitmain or somewhere and pay, I think it was
Bitmain,

1060
01:29:43,743 --> 01:29:46,703
or I don't know.

1061
01:29:46,703 --> 01:29:47,503
I think it was Bitmain.

1062
01:29:47,503 --> 01:29:51,023
You could pay with a credit card to bump the fee.

1063
01:29:52,623 --> 01:29:53,983
Okay, so that was weird.

1064
01:29:53,983 --> 01:29:56,223
I think we defined what MEV is.

1065
01:29:56,223 --> 01:29:57,983
We explained what can happen.

1066
01:29:57,983 --> 01:29:59,823
Yeah, but we didn't really define it.

1067
01:30:00,623 --> 01:30:01,583
Do you agree with...

1068
01:30:01,583 --> 01:30:02,943
So let me ask you this.

1069
01:30:02,943 --> 01:30:06,063
Is the credit card thing of the old days of yore,

1070
01:30:06,063 --> 01:30:06,943
is that MEV?

1071
01:30:06,943 --> 01:30:08,783
And is brains selling t-shirts?

1072
01:30:09,343 --> 01:30:10,223
Is that MEV?

1073
01:30:11,263 --> 01:30:11,823
You tell me.

1074
01:30:14,863 --> 01:30:16,143
I don't think so.

1075
01:30:16,143 --> 01:30:16,643
No.

1076
01:30:17,583 --> 01:30:18,943
Anyone can sell t-shirts.

1077
01:30:18,943 --> 01:30:19,743
The shirt thing?

1078
01:30:19,743 --> 01:30:20,783
Anyone can sell t-shirts.

1079
01:30:20,783 --> 01:30:22,543
Not an integral part of their business.

1080
01:30:22,543 --> 01:30:27,503
Yeah, but people are only buying them because it's the brand of the mining pool.

1081
01:30:29,023 --> 01:30:30,223
Anyone could sell t-shirts,

1082
01:30:30,223 --> 01:30:31,663
but like a Bruce Springsteen t-shirt,

1083
01:30:31,663 --> 01:30:34,783
like a New York Yankees t-shirt is going to sell

1084
01:30:34,783 --> 01:30:37,983
because people want to be associated with the brand.

1085
01:30:38,623 --> 01:30:39,903
I think that's a good example.

1086
01:30:39,903 --> 01:30:43,183
It's like saying that if you buy too many Bruce Springsteen t-shirts,

1087
01:30:43,183 --> 01:30:45,423
he's not going to do any concerts.

1088
01:30:45,423 --> 01:30:46,943
Yeah, he'll only care about t-shirts.

1089
01:30:46,943 --> 01:30:48,623
He won't care about putting out a new album.

1090
01:30:49,183 --> 01:30:49,683
Yeah.

1091
01:30:50,463 --> 01:30:50,963
Right.

1092
01:30:51,983 --> 01:30:53,823
But do you see how absurd that is though?

1093
01:30:53,823 --> 01:30:54,323
Right?

1094
01:30:57,183 --> 01:30:58,623
It's the same project, really.

1095
01:30:59,343 --> 01:31:01,263
But this is about Bitcoin miners, right?

1096
01:31:01,263 --> 01:31:01,903
Celebrity mining.

1097
01:31:01,903 --> 01:31:03,183
What is the worst that can happen?

1098
01:31:03,183 --> 01:31:07,103
Interesting though, like mining pools do rely on,

1099
01:31:07,103 --> 01:31:11,583
their reputation is part of how we keep them vulnerable.

1100
01:31:12,383 --> 01:31:14,863
Because we say a mining pool is basically,

1101
01:31:14,863 --> 01:31:18,143
people say, listen, I have too much variance by myself.

1102
01:31:18,143 --> 01:31:22,863
If you only have one 10,000th network hash rate,

1103
01:31:24,383 --> 01:31:28,223
then it'll be months before you find your first solo mining.

1104
01:31:29,583 --> 01:31:34,543
So you need the pool to smooth your income.

1105
01:31:35,583 --> 01:31:37,583
You tell the pool, listen, you can have a tiny cut,

1106
01:31:37,583 --> 01:31:40,623
you pay a charge of fee as long as you're doing the right thing.

1107
01:31:40,623 --> 01:31:42,063
But if I catch you doing the wrong thing,

1108
01:31:42,063 --> 01:31:43,503
I will switch to a different pool.

1109
01:31:43,503 --> 01:31:46,303
So the brand, the fact that the brand lasts a long time,

1110
01:31:47,823 --> 01:31:50,143
that's key to the economics of the pool.

1111
01:31:50,143 --> 01:31:53,263
And did you know that branding, this is a carnivore angle.

1112
01:31:53,263 --> 01:31:55,583
The brand was invented as the cattle brand

1113
01:31:55,583 --> 01:32:00,383
and there's laws saying in America and probably everywhere,

1114
01:32:00,383 --> 01:32:03,343
but there's laws about like, if they register the brand,

1115
01:32:03,343 --> 01:32:04,463
the trademark or whatever,

1116
01:32:04,463 --> 01:32:07,823
and they say, you cannot use the other ranchers brand.

1117
01:32:07,823 --> 01:32:11,423
The brand, the phrase brand, excuse me, the word,

1118
01:32:12,063 --> 01:32:16,463
the marketing brand, it goes back to cattle branding.

1119
01:32:16,463 --> 01:32:20,863
So fun fact for you, if you didn't know that.

1120
01:32:21,863 --> 01:32:23,103
All right.

1121
01:32:23,103 --> 01:32:25,743
So what is the worst that can happen with MEV?

1122
01:32:25,743 --> 01:32:27,183
What is everyone afraid of?

1123
01:32:28,863 --> 01:32:30,383
Well, I don't think anyone's really thinking about it,

1124
01:32:30,383 --> 01:32:32,863
but fortunately for all of you, I did think about it myself.

1125
01:32:32,863 --> 01:32:37,983
Long ago in 2016, if you go, I had this giant talk

1126
01:32:37,983 --> 01:32:41,103
on what I called sidechain privatization.

1127
01:32:42,383 --> 01:32:44,383
And I wrote an essay about it in September,

1128
01:32:44,383 --> 01:32:47,103
I think 2015, or maybe right after.

1129
01:32:47,583 --> 01:32:49,023
So if you look these up, you'll see,

1130
01:32:49,023 --> 01:32:50,703
I had already carefully considered all this

1131
01:32:50,703 --> 01:32:53,423
about the different networks like interfering with each other

1132
01:32:53,423 --> 01:32:56,143
and one costing the other fees or blocks

1133
01:32:56,143 --> 01:32:58,463
or paying someone to omit a transaction

1134
01:32:58,463 --> 01:32:59,823
or paying someone to omit a block.

1135
01:32:59,823 --> 01:33:03,023
So I had thought about it all back in 2016 already.

1136
01:33:03,023 --> 01:33:04,623
So you should watch my old presentation

1137
01:33:04,623 --> 01:33:05,903
if you care about such things.

1138
01:33:06,943 --> 01:33:11,423
And then you can get it probably the right way.

1139
01:33:11,423 --> 01:33:14,063
What I think is happening now is just like people just,

1140
01:33:14,063 --> 01:33:15,663
they want, they need to find a reason,

1141
01:33:16,623 --> 01:33:19,183
they were mistakenly against this idea.

1142
01:33:20,143 --> 01:33:22,223
They need to find somehow a reason,

1143
01:33:22,943 --> 01:33:24,943
how can we justify being against this idea?

1144
01:33:24,943 --> 01:33:25,903
It can't be the case.

1145
01:33:26,623 --> 01:33:27,823
It just can't be the case

1146
01:33:27,823 --> 01:33:29,903
that this was the solution the whole time,

1147
01:33:29,903 --> 01:33:32,543
counting to 13,000 with an unused op-nop.

1148
01:33:34,223 --> 01:33:35,503
And so they are fine.

1149
01:33:35,503 --> 01:33:36,863
Okay, MEV, here it is.

1150
01:33:38,063 --> 01:33:41,503
So like that guy, Alex B, multiple times,

1151
01:33:41,503 --> 01:33:43,343
he will just delete, he'll do a space

1152
01:33:43,343 --> 01:33:44,783
and then I joined the space and talk to him

1153
01:33:44,783 --> 01:33:46,543
and he just deletes the space afterwards

1154
01:33:46,543 --> 01:33:47,743
and he deletes all mention of it.

1155
01:33:47,743 --> 01:33:51,823
So he's only, he's deleted many of the things,

1156
01:33:51,823 --> 01:33:53,023
some of which I still have.

1157
01:33:53,023 --> 01:33:55,823
And this is not about Alex Berg or someone else.

1158
01:33:55,823 --> 01:33:58,223
This is about this scenario.

1159
01:33:58,223 --> 01:34:02,223
What can happen if we have large-scale MEV in Bitcoin?

1160
01:34:02,223 --> 01:34:03,743
No, I think nothing bad.

1161
01:34:03,743 --> 01:34:05,503
It's no different than what,

1162
01:34:05,503 --> 01:34:07,823
if I, there's nothing the smart contract

1163
01:34:07,823 --> 01:34:09,263
can bribe a miner to do

1164
01:34:10,063 --> 01:34:13,583
that human beings couldn't bribe a miner to do.

1165
01:34:13,583 --> 01:34:15,583
So there's nothing bad that can happen.

1166
01:34:16,783 --> 01:34:19,823
I guess you can have this guy from Nigeria or something,

1167
01:34:19,823 --> 01:34:21,903
any developing nation,

1168
01:34:22,943 --> 01:34:26,143
and he's not in any position to bribe the miners

1169
01:34:26,143 --> 01:34:28,303
and he's going to have to wait a lot longer

1170
01:34:28,303 --> 01:34:30,303
for his transaction to go through,

1171
01:34:30,303 --> 01:34:32,943
even though he's paying the fair fee,

1172
01:34:32,943 --> 01:34:33,743
according to the estimation.

1173
01:34:33,743 --> 01:34:37,023
But this is a question of the congestion of the blockchain,

1174
01:34:37,023 --> 01:34:38,543
which could happen for any reason.

1175
01:34:38,543 --> 01:34:39,663
It doesn't have to be MEV.

1176
01:34:39,663 --> 01:34:41,503
It doesn't have to be sidechains.

1177
01:34:41,503 --> 01:34:42,543
It could be anything.

1178
01:34:44,143 --> 01:34:46,943
That's just a congestion point.

1179
01:34:47,823 --> 01:34:50,463
The MEV thing is just people who don't understand MEV.

1180
01:34:50,463 --> 01:34:52,543
They know that Ethereum talks about it.

1181
01:34:52,543 --> 01:34:54,063
They know there's a possibility

1182
01:34:54,063 --> 01:34:55,263
of having Ethereum sidechain.

1183
01:34:55,263 --> 01:34:56,063
So they just kind of,

1184
01:34:56,063 --> 01:34:57,903
they think they put two and two together.

1185
01:34:57,903 --> 01:34:59,983
The whole thing is a complete misunderstanding

1186
01:34:59,983 --> 01:35:02,943
of how it works on Ethereum anyway,

1187
01:35:02,943 --> 01:35:05,823
where in Ethereum,

1188
01:35:05,823 --> 01:35:08,463
there's different groups that vertically integrate

1189
01:35:08,463 --> 01:35:09,583
to do better MEV.

1190
01:35:10,463 --> 01:35:12,863
But in the Drivechain world,

1191
01:35:12,863 --> 01:35:15,343
those groups would integrate anyway on the L2 side.

1192
01:35:16,543 --> 01:35:18,383
And then the L1 miners would, again,

1193
01:35:18,383 --> 01:35:21,663
they would just include whatever pays the highest fee.

1194
01:35:21,663 --> 01:35:24,063
So there's no incentive for that group

1195
01:35:24,063 --> 01:35:26,143
to vertically integrate.

1196
01:35:26,143 --> 01:35:28,943
And it wouldn't matter in the slightest if they did.

1197
01:35:28,943 --> 01:35:30,943
It wouldn't matter in the slightest if they did.

1198
01:35:30,943 --> 01:35:33,983
Any more than any other benefit that they could obtain.

1199
01:35:33,983 --> 01:35:36,303
Like Riot has vertically integrated

1200
01:35:36,303 --> 01:35:37,903
with the government of Texas,

1201
01:35:38,223 --> 01:35:40,463
with these curtailment credits,

1202
01:35:40,463 --> 01:35:41,903
but none of it matters.

1203
01:35:43,903 --> 01:35:46,223
Because the miners have a job

1204
01:35:46,223 --> 01:35:50,783
to order blocks and not censor transactions.

1205
01:35:51,903 --> 01:35:53,503
And the ordering of the blocks is something

1206
01:35:53,503 --> 01:35:55,023
where if they stab each other in the back,

1207
01:35:55,023 --> 01:35:57,343
they will be stabbing each other in the back forever.

1208
01:35:57,343 --> 01:35:59,423
It's like a bunch of people trying to get on,

1209
01:35:59,423 --> 01:35:59,983
they're in line,

1210
01:35:59,983 --> 01:36:01,663
they're trying to get on the bus or a ferry.

1211
01:36:02,463 --> 01:36:03,983
If one of them cuts in line,

1212
01:36:03,983 --> 01:36:05,823
if they reorg each other out of the line,

1213
01:36:05,823 --> 01:36:07,103
then they'll be reorged.

1214
01:36:07,103 --> 01:36:08,863
And so everyone will be in the line,

1215
01:36:08,863 --> 01:36:09,663
will just be fighting.

1216
01:36:10,223 --> 01:36:12,143
And by the time they'll get on the ferry,

1217
01:36:13,103 --> 01:36:15,023
two ferries could have come and gone.

1218
01:36:15,823 --> 01:36:18,223
So if they don't order blocks,

1219
01:36:18,223 --> 01:36:19,983
then Bitcoin is dead.

1220
01:36:19,983 --> 01:36:21,423
But I think that's very safe

1221
01:36:21,423 --> 01:36:23,263
that they will order the blocks.

1222
01:36:23,263 --> 01:36:24,703
And then the transaction censorship

1223
01:36:24,703 --> 01:36:28,783
also has a naturally self-fulfilling,

1224
01:36:28,783 --> 01:36:30,463
like it has a healing,

1225
01:36:31,743 --> 01:36:32,863
a self-healing attribute

1226
01:36:32,863 --> 01:36:36,303
where every censored transaction will just pile up.

1227
01:36:36,303 --> 01:36:38,783
And there'll be this huge pile of gold

1228
01:36:39,583 --> 01:36:41,103
for anyone who wants to mine a block

1229
01:36:41,103 --> 01:36:44,303
that mines the censored transaction.

1230
01:36:44,303 --> 01:36:46,703
So it would just increase the ROI

1231
01:36:46,703 --> 01:36:48,703
to using a pool that doesn't censor.

1232
01:36:49,663 --> 01:36:52,543
In a way, Luxor was the pool.

1233
01:36:52,543 --> 01:36:54,303
But since Luxor embraced ordinals,

1234
01:36:54,863 --> 01:36:57,103
Luxor was the real mining pool

1235
01:36:57,103 --> 01:37:03,023
because the ordinal transactions were all censored.

1236
01:37:03,023 --> 01:37:05,423
And similarly, when people embrace merge mining,

1237
01:37:05,423 --> 01:37:06,463
merge mine sidechains,

1238
01:37:07,023 --> 01:37:10,943
they will be defeating the transaction censorship

1239
01:37:10,943 --> 01:37:13,743
imposed by whatever,

1240
01:37:13,743 --> 01:37:16,543
the slowness of the Bitcoin development community

1241
01:37:16,543 --> 01:37:19,183
to emphasize sidechains.

1242
01:37:19,183 --> 01:37:22,623
Right now, the Bitcoin, the whatever,

1243
01:37:22,623 --> 01:37:26,703
the BIP process is the biggest transaction censor.

1244
01:37:26,703 --> 01:37:28,943
It's the censoring of the merge mine transactions.

1245
01:37:30,703 --> 01:37:33,103
And when they finally break through that,

1246
01:37:33,103 --> 01:37:35,263
it will be Satoshi's design succeeding

1247
01:37:35,983 --> 01:37:37,183
in defeating the censors.

1248
01:37:39,103 --> 01:37:40,543
But there's nothing about MEV.

1249
01:37:40,543 --> 01:37:41,983
It just means they're going to collect,

1250
01:37:41,983 --> 01:37:43,663
they're collecting fees.

1251
01:37:43,663 --> 01:37:44,623
They're not censoring.

1252
01:37:44,623 --> 01:37:48,303
So instead, all of it is working the way it should work.

1253
01:37:48,303 --> 01:37:54,303
Yeah, but it's messing with the basics

1254
01:37:54,303 --> 01:37:56,703
that are being described in the white paper, right?

1255
01:37:56,703 --> 01:37:59,023
No, it's completely fulfilling them.

1256
01:38:01,343 --> 01:38:02,703
How does it mess with the basics?

1257
01:38:03,263 --> 01:38:07,183
Well, the role of a miner is,

1258
01:38:07,183 --> 01:38:08,383
to put it simply,

1259
01:38:08,383 --> 01:38:10,783
to look at the mempool

1260
01:38:10,783 --> 01:38:14,543
and pick the transactions that pay the right fee

1261
01:38:14,543 --> 01:38:16,463
that makes them include...

1262
01:38:16,463 --> 01:38:17,903
But they have to be valid transactions.

1263
01:38:19,103 --> 01:38:19,743
Right.

1264
01:38:19,743 --> 01:38:21,183
So how is this any different than that?

1265
01:38:23,583 --> 01:38:24,383
Well, you're gonna...

1266
01:38:24,383 --> 01:38:25,503
In the Drivechain world, it's not.

1267
01:38:25,503 --> 01:38:26,703
In the Ethereum world, it is.

1268
01:38:27,423 --> 01:38:28,783
But in the Drivechain world, it's not.

1269
01:38:28,783 --> 01:38:30,863
They are just picking the transactions

1270
01:38:30,863 --> 01:38:32,303
that pay the highest fee on L1.

1271
01:38:32,303 --> 01:38:33,023
That's all they're doing.

1272
01:38:35,423 --> 01:38:36,863
Okay, let's move on to the next point.

1273
01:38:36,863 --> 01:38:39,663
It's exactly the same

1274
01:38:41,023 --> 01:38:42,383
as the job they already do now.

1275
01:38:43,423 --> 01:38:44,303
And this is, again,

1276
01:38:44,303 --> 01:38:46,943
setting aside the issue of whether or not...

1277
01:38:46,943 --> 01:38:48,703
It's like, is MEV something

1278
01:38:48,703 --> 01:38:52,223
that's only between the terrible smart contract design

1279
01:38:52,223 --> 01:38:53,903
and the terrible user who's paying?

1280
01:38:53,903 --> 01:38:54,943
The user is the victim.

1281
01:38:58,703 --> 01:39:01,023
But maybe to stop using that.

1282
01:39:02,463 --> 01:39:03,503
But even if there wasn't,

1283
01:39:03,503 --> 01:39:05,023
even if everything was different, it would not...

1284
01:39:06,463 --> 01:39:07,263
You know, the MEV,

1285
01:39:09,503 --> 01:39:11,103
there's nothing that a smart contract

1286
01:39:11,103 --> 01:39:13,263
could pay the miners to do

1287
01:39:14,543 --> 01:39:17,343
that a human couldn't, in principle, also pay them.

1288
01:39:17,343 --> 01:39:18,223
So the question is like,

1289
01:39:18,223 --> 01:39:19,503
will there be some kind of sidechain

1290
01:39:19,503 --> 01:39:23,183
that automatically triggers this undesirable behavior?

1291
01:39:24,623 --> 01:39:25,103
Somehow.

1292
01:39:26,943 --> 01:39:28,943
But I already dealt with this question in 2016.

1293
01:39:28,943 --> 01:39:31,023
A long time ago, I gave a big presentation about it.

1294
01:39:31,023 --> 01:39:34,943
The sidechain privatization question.

1295
01:39:37,423 --> 01:39:38,703
And I already told you before

1296
01:39:38,703 --> 01:39:40,623
about how Liquid could just collect the money

1297
01:39:40,623 --> 01:39:42,303
and then they could only give the money to

1298
01:39:45,023 --> 01:39:45,663
someone who...

1299
01:39:47,743 --> 01:39:48,943
Like, they could say,

1300
01:39:48,943 --> 01:39:53,183
we'll only give the money to Bitfury

1301
01:39:53,183 --> 01:39:56,143
or to a miner who's aligned with us.

1302
01:39:57,271 --> 01:40:07,111
And then it would be a literally a requirement in order to mine that you had to have
some deal with Liquid, like a signed contract or something. But all this is just a
bunch of nonsense, is my real opinion.

1303
01:40:08,831 --> 01:40:09,911
Why are you bringing it up then?

1304
01:40:11,311 --> 01:40:13,991
You brought it up and then you said it's a bunch of nonsense.

1305
01:40:14,311 --> 01:40:17,031
You brought it up and then you said it's a bunch of nonsense.

1306
01:40:17,391 --> 01:40:21,751
No, the whole MEV thing is just saying it's bad if miners earn more money.

1307
01:40:24,031 --> 01:40:24,431
Who is...

1308
01:40:24,991 --> 01:40:27,031
It's not about what, it's about how.

1309
01:40:27,871 --> 01:40:32,151
Yeah, okay. It is about how. But what exactly do you think would happen?

1310
01:40:34,311 --> 01:40:35,631
Well, you're the expert here.

1311
01:40:36,071 --> 01:40:43,151
I know I am. I have a big... I have a huge... In 2016, I put videos out. June or May
2016.

1312
01:40:44,471 --> 01:40:46,711
I put out videos explaining it in detail.

1313
01:40:48,631 --> 01:40:51,511
It's a five-part thing, sidechain privatization.

1314
01:40:53,231 --> 01:40:58,311
And then I put another one, there's another series that's five hours long or
something called sidechain risks.

1315
01:40:58,791 --> 01:41:05,991
Both from 2016, long before Alex B had ever been born or had even heard about
Bitcoin.

1316
01:41:06,711 --> 01:41:14,111
You know, that's why you are your own worst enemy, because instead of talking about
ideas, you have to always smear some people.

1317
01:41:14,911 --> 01:41:20,751
I don't think so. I just think these... No, I think I always talk about the idea.

1318
01:41:20,951 --> 01:41:24,391
I always say that a person at the end is a sort of a joke. It's a tie-off.

1319
01:41:26,471 --> 01:41:28,311
Yeah, but that's what they're going to remember.

1320
01:41:28,511 --> 01:41:31,431
Yeah, but I mean, I don't understand, like...

1321
01:41:31,431 --> 01:41:36,391
Like, I don't know, if you've been taking these people seriously, how much hope for
you is there, really?

1322
01:41:38,991 --> 01:41:42,671
Well, people don't have time. Honestly, this is going to be a three-hour podcast.

1323
01:41:42,671 --> 01:41:48,951
People don't have time to listen to this, and they don't have time afterwards to
look up all the concepts that are being discussed.

1324
01:41:49,311 --> 01:41:58,111
So they're going to look up to someone like Jimmy Song, who says, let's work Bitcoin
preemptively right now and create something that cannot ever happen again.

1325
01:41:59,111 --> 01:42:06,991
And create something that cannot ever have sidechains or whatever, because we want
Bitcoin to only be the way that we know it right now.

1326
01:42:06,991 --> 01:42:09,391
We don't want it to change, right? That's what we should...

1327
01:42:09,391 --> 01:42:14,351
I know, but if I build this case on something other than the audience's knowledge,
then what am I building it on, really?

1328
01:42:15,871 --> 01:42:17,271
Well, that's up to you.

1329
01:42:17,271 --> 01:42:26,471
But what I'm saying is that you're sending out the wrong message by having these
small cracks when you're being petty, maybe, and you're being,

1330
01:42:26,471 --> 01:42:36,111
oh, that guy, I should, I mean, I'm not the right person to say this, because I also
take shots at the samurai people and I make fun of the cold car people.

1331
01:42:36,271 --> 01:42:38,031
But that's entirely different.

1332
01:42:38,031 --> 01:42:41,031
I'm not trying to push a fork, you know, I'm just a podcaster.

1333
01:42:41,831 --> 01:42:53,671
But my point is that you're bringing up something that can potentially save
Bitcoin's mining revenue and secure the budget for miners for a long time.

1334
01:42:54,111 --> 01:43:00,391
And make us not increase the block size and most importantly, not change the 21
million cap.

1335
01:43:01,831 --> 01:43:14,591
But I feel like the way that you present the message is turning people away and the
fact that you specifically had to go for the laser eyed people and make fun of them
and stuff like that.

1336
01:43:14,711 --> 01:43:23,111
I mean, OK, of course, you understand Bitcoin better than someone who is following
Pure Rochard or whatever and takes advice from Dan Held.

1337
01:43:23,951 --> 01:43:30,831
But. You have to really educate them, you don't have to make fun of them, that's the
point you have to.

1338
01:43:31,231 --> 01:43:43,591
I get that you have been trying to do this since 2015 and it must be hard and you
don't most likely you don't get attention unless you trigger people, because that's
how Twitter works.

1339
01:43:44,271 --> 01:43:48,191
But I guess also Twitter is a bad place to debate stuff like this.

1340
01:43:48,351 --> 01:43:48,911
Maybe.

1341
01:43:48,951 --> 01:43:49,751
Yes, it is.

1342
01:43:50,031 --> 01:43:55,111
And of course, the Twitter attention is not it's probably not helping me.

1343
01:43:55,991 --> 01:43:57,551
So I don't really want that.

1344
01:43:58,031 --> 01:44:06,231
But, you know, I have I mean, what I have is I have the LayerTwo Labs dot com slash
friends list, which is like most of the best people in Bitcoin.

1345
01:44:07,831 --> 01:44:11,311
So that's like kind of more what I care about.

1346
01:44:11,551 --> 01:44:14,191
I also I don't think that it really is turning people off.

1347
01:44:14,191 --> 01:44:21,071
I actually think there's only like two or three like bot farm type people, because I
don't think any of these people are real.

1348
01:44:21,751 --> 01:44:25,911
The I don't think and I don't even think the controversy is that real.

1349
01:44:25,911 --> 01:44:32,471
But I think the unpopular opinions panel, they found like a couple of people who
where it is real.

1350
01:44:32,471 --> 01:44:35,711
So I look forward to actually watching that if we ever get to that.

1351
01:44:37,991 --> 01:44:40,551
OK, Paul, we have one last point from Genovi.

1352
01:44:40,551 --> 01:44:44,231
Yes, we need to discuss this.

1353
01:44:44,231 --> 01:44:49,151
I mean, he's the technical editor of Bitcoin magazine right now, so we need to take
this seriously.

1354
01:44:50,031 --> 01:44:52,631
I'm being ironic because I used to work for them and they suck.

1355
01:44:52,631 --> 01:44:58,191
But anyway, the fourth point is that no swap markets are not an answer.

1356
01:44:59,031 --> 01:45:06,151
And he says Pulsar replied to some of these concerns on Twitter, but these responses
do not really address their root issues.

1357
01:45:06,391 --> 01:45:19,551
Swap markets might sound like an answer, but the reality is that these just shove
the liquidity requirements onto yet another party, assuming that they will provide
massive amounts of liquidity for almost nothing in return.

1358
01:45:20,111 --> 01:45:28,151
That might work for small scale utility users or having liquidity available to
arbitrage uncertainty around the peg.

1359
01:45:28,711 --> 01:45:43,231
I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that enough liquidity to cover the solution
to the security budget problem without slippage is a given to say nothing of all the
other users who would want to swap in and out.

1360
01:45:43,391 --> 01:45:46,431
This guy writes like he talks and it's a problem.

1361
01:45:47,431 --> 01:45:57,711
He then goes on to ignore the difference between the main chain reorg, which
requires redoing work and energy expenditure versus a sidechain reorg, which does
not.

1362
01:45:58,151 --> 01:46:10,111
Finally, he equates a random person for no logical or profit driven reason, giving
money away with someone generating a profit with an activity they are the sole
gatekeepers of.

1363
01:46:11,111 --> 01:46:14,591
And he ends this saying that, look, ultimately, I'm a Bitcoin maximalist.

1364
01:46:14,591 --> 01:46:16,071
I want what's best for Bitcoin.

1365
01:46:16,071 --> 01:46:21,791
I think Drivechains are stupid, dangerous and a waste of time, but I want to hear
your thoughts on the subject.

1366
01:46:22,271 --> 01:46:24,551
Am I wrong on the points above?

1367
01:46:24,991 --> 01:46:29,191
Is there another reason that I should be against Drivechains that I've overlooked?

1368
01:46:31,871 --> 01:46:34,071
So, yeah, luckily, I mean, I wrote that down.

1369
01:46:35,071 --> 01:46:38,951
So I have my I found my tweet, because otherwise, as you say, it's rambling.

1370
01:46:39,511 --> 01:46:40,711
You know, you don't even know where to begin.

1371
01:46:40,711 --> 01:46:42,711
But I have a quote.

1372
01:46:42,711 --> 01:46:47,591
These shove the liquidity requirements onto someone.

1373
01:46:48,111 --> 01:46:51,631
They must provide massive amounts of liquidity for almost nothing in return.

1374
01:46:52,031 --> 01:46:54,591
But both halves of that are incorrect.

1375
01:46:54,631 --> 01:46:59,751
So there is no liquidity requirement like per se.

1376
01:46:59,911 --> 01:47:02,151
So no one has to provide anything.

1377
01:47:02,191 --> 01:47:16,231
Anyone with L1 coins, if you just own L1 coins in any wallet, you could at the drop
of a hat participate in this scheme of of exchanging them for L2 coins.

1378
01:47:16,791 --> 01:47:19,311
So there's no they aren't locked up at all.

1379
01:47:19,311 --> 01:47:22,271
There's nothing. So does that make sense?

1380
01:47:22,271 --> 01:47:24,231
Like there's no like providing liquidity.

1381
01:47:24,231 --> 01:47:26,391
It's just the coins already exist.

1382
01:47:27,391 --> 01:47:28,591
You see what I mean?

1383
01:47:28,591 --> 01:47:33,911
Like if you may need like when you walk around, you maybe you only have some percent
of your net worth in cash.

1384
01:47:35,231 --> 01:47:48,271
You only have so much cash and you only have so much in your checking account and
you only have so much in a money market account if you're rich and you only have so
much in whatever savings account.

1385
01:47:50,071 --> 01:47:50,791
I get the point.

1386
01:47:51,311 --> 01:47:54,631
None of the coins, any L1 coin could be.

1387
01:47:54,631 --> 01:47:56,151
There's no nothing is locked up.

1388
01:47:56,151 --> 01:47:57,711
So there is no providing liquidity.

1389
01:47:57,751 --> 01:47:58,351
It's not real.

1390
01:47:58,351 --> 01:48:04,071
And then the idea that they provide that they provide this, which is nothing, there
is no providing.

1391
01:48:04,311 --> 01:48:05,271
There's no activity.

1392
01:48:05,271 --> 01:48:07,991
Everyone could do it at the drop of a hat or could not.

1393
01:48:10,191 --> 01:48:13,751
The idea that they do it for nothing in return is completely untrue.

1394
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:16,471
Also, they charge.

1395
01:48:16,511 --> 01:48:17,711
They're the one charging the fee.

1396
01:48:17,751 --> 01:48:19,311
So they do it in return for a fee.

1397
01:48:19,311 --> 01:48:21,431
The fee covaries with market conditions.

1398
01:48:21,431 --> 01:48:24,151
So they get exactly what they.

1399
01:48:27,831 --> 01:48:29,511
It's completely both.

1400
01:48:29,831 --> 01:48:31,831
The whole description is incorrect.

1401
01:48:32,631 --> 01:48:39,911
Just to be clear, is this a reference to Sideshift.AI, which is a service that helps
you swap coins between layers?

1402
01:48:40,591 --> 01:48:41,111
No, no.

1403
01:48:41,111 --> 01:48:54,591
But that is one, the fact that Sideshift.AI exists is partially a demonstration of
this, that you could have Sideshift.AI or you could have Coinbase or you could have
Kraken or you could have HTLCs or you could have some kind of protocol thing.

1404
01:48:56,671 --> 01:49:00,351
You could have some kind of thing that's completely peer to peer and decentralized.

1405
01:49:01,991 --> 01:49:06,631
Cross-chain atomic swap, HTLC, that will also work.

1406
01:49:07,631 --> 01:49:28,511
So the person on L1, they are the ones who have the more valued coin, they are the
whatever, it's like when you go to whatever ladies night at the bar and they get in
for free.

1407
01:49:29,511 --> 01:49:38,751
So the L1 coins are more desirable and they are the ones charging the fee for the L2
coins, which are trying to get back to L1.

1408
01:49:39,071 --> 01:49:47,071
So, yeah, probably my worst analogy yet, but they charge the fee.

1409
01:49:47,071 --> 01:49:49,231
It's not for nothing in return.

1410
01:49:49,231 --> 01:49:54,591
It's they set whatever they want in return and that's what they get until they get a
buyer.

1411
01:49:54,591 --> 01:49:55,831
If they don't get a buyer, they get nothing.

1412
01:49:55,831 --> 01:49:57,071
So it's absurd.

1413
01:49:58,071 --> 01:50:02,031
I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that enough liquidity to cover the solution
to the security budget.

1414
01:50:02,031 --> 01:50:04,951
Like, again, it's all misunderstood and confused.

1415
01:50:04,951 --> 01:50:11,751
So the security budget is solved by merged mining and it has nothing to do with
deposits and withdrawals.

1416
01:50:12,111 --> 01:50:31,911
Even if the coins stop, if they stop moving at some point between L1 and L2, then
the security budget would still be solved by Drivechain and it would still be in
jeopardy of not being solved if there was no activity on the Drivechain L2.

1417
01:50:32,871 --> 01:50:37,231
So it has literally nothing at all to do with deposits and withdrawals.

1418
01:50:37,231 --> 01:50:39,871
I don't know why, but I think people confuse that a lot.

1419
01:50:39,871 --> 01:50:43,631
They confuse merged mining and the deposits and withdrawals.

1420
01:50:45,311 --> 01:50:46,311
I don't know.

1421
01:50:46,311 --> 01:50:48,031
I don't know why, but I think it's confusing.

1422
01:50:48,031 --> 01:50:49,351
So I think that's understandable.

1423
01:50:49,351 --> 01:50:51,471
But it's just they have nothing to do with it.

1424
01:50:51,471 --> 01:50:54,911
It's like, you know, they have nothing to do with each other.

1425
01:50:56,031 --> 01:50:59,111
It would be like if we said something, I shouldn't do any more analogies.

1426
01:50:59,111 --> 01:50:59,911
Not good.

1427
01:50:59,911 --> 01:51:03,831
Yeah, someone called you a sexist in the chat for the lady's nice analogy.

1428
01:51:05,351 --> 01:51:09,311
It's not me, it's the owners of the proprietors of the establishment.

1429
01:51:09,631 --> 01:51:11,151
OK, I just live in this world.

1430
01:51:12,311 --> 01:51:14,111
But why do you know about that?

1431
01:51:14,111 --> 01:51:16,831
I don't answer, please.

1432
01:51:16,831 --> 01:51:19,791
We'll do whatever it takes to end all forms of discrimination.

1433
01:51:21,071 --> 01:51:26,591
OK, ignore the difference between a main chain reorg, which requires redoing work
and entering expenditure with a sidechain reorg, which does not.

1434
01:51:26,591 --> 01:51:35,151
But Blind Merged Mining is explicitly designed to do either thermodynamic work or L1
coins, equivalent value of either.

1435
01:51:36,111 --> 01:51:42,671
So that's that's the whole point is that you could do you could do one or the other
and the amount would be the same.

1436
01:51:44,911 --> 01:51:46,671
So, you know, again, it's like.

1437
01:51:48,671 --> 01:51:50,751
He's saying they're different, but they're not they're not different at all.

1438
01:51:50,751 --> 01:51:52,031
It's the same amount of money.

1439
01:51:55,151 --> 01:51:57,311
I don't know why he would even say that, so I don't know.

1440
01:51:57,311 --> 01:51:57,871
I don't get it.

1441
01:51:59,071 --> 01:51:59,791
So, yeah, I don't know.

1442
01:52:00,271 --> 01:52:05,951
I think it's all silly anyway, because all this does, all Drivechain does is count
to 13,000.

1443
01:52:05,951 --> 01:52:10,351
So it's going to it will inevitably happen anyway and probably soon.

1444
01:52:10,351 --> 01:52:13,631
And so all these people will just be super humiliated when it does.

1445
01:52:13,631 --> 01:52:15,151
I think that's my prediction.

1446
01:52:15,871 --> 01:52:18,111
Well, Jimmy Song talks about a fork, right?

1447
01:52:18,111 --> 01:52:26,991
So again, he's going to fork to stop Bitcoin, the Bitcoin network from counting to
13,000 over and over again.

1448
01:52:26,991 --> 01:52:27,471
Does he?

1449
01:52:27,471 --> 01:52:29,071
I don't think he even realizes anything.

1450
01:52:29,071 --> 01:52:32,751
I don't think he knows anything about like, you know, like what people want with.

1451
01:52:32,751 --> 01:52:36,191
If you bring back OP_CAT or TxHash or whatever, CTV.

1452
01:52:39,551 --> 01:52:45,231
It's very easy to simulate VIP 300 with a horribly hacky way that no one would want.

1453
01:52:45,231 --> 01:52:47,071
But it's very easy to just do.

1454
01:52:47,071 --> 01:52:50,831
You could, of course, do it now with just more trust.

1455
01:52:50,831 --> 01:52:56,671
If you trusted the miners more, you could just have a handshake deal to do the VIP
300 rules among miners.

1456
01:52:56,671 --> 01:52:58,831
And then it would be unpreventable.

1457
01:52:59,791 --> 01:53:01,471
Yeah, that's something I was going to ask you about.

1458
01:53:01,471 --> 01:53:14,671
Jimmy would have to go whack a mole and he'd have to find the places where miners
had agreed that a UTXO is a sidechain and then try to fork himself off of those.

1459
01:53:14,671 --> 01:53:16,911
And he would be completely alone if he did that, I think.

1460
01:53:19,791 --> 01:53:21,231
It's kind of, you know.

1461
01:53:21,231 --> 01:53:24,031
It would be a hard fork because he would be breaking the heaviest chain rule.

1462
01:53:24,591 --> 01:53:30,911
Some people will be engaging and trying to understand what this is about and trying
to come up with arguments.

1463
01:53:30,911 --> 01:53:33,151
They would rather argue in favor of forks.

1464
01:53:33,791 --> 01:53:42,911
And I can understand that, you know, saying the word fork gets you a lot of
attention and you just launched a new book and you need as much attention as you can
get.

1465
01:53:42,911 --> 01:53:44,351
And I'm talking about you, Jimmy.

1466
01:53:44,911 --> 01:53:48,831
You launched that Fiat destroys everything or whatever book.

1467
01:53:48,831 --> 01:53:51,391
He's got to let everyone know he's a real deal Bitcoiner.

1468
01:53:52,031 --> 01:53:54,031
There's more to it than that, of course.

1469
01:53:54,031 --> 01:54:01,951
Most of the Bitcoin culture is based around having defeated the large blockers in
the scaling war.

1470
01:54:01,951 --> 01:54:05,471
So they just, everyone, anything to have a repeat of that.

1471
01:54:05,471 --> 01:54:13,951
The same reason why, you know, in Russia, they constantly talk about World War II
over and over and over again because so many people died, one out of every seven or
so.

1472
01:54:13,951 --> 01:54:15,951
So everything is framed.

1473
01:54:15,951 --> 01:54:17,951
Don't go there, please.

1474
01:54:17,951 --> 01:54:19,951
Just stop.

1475
01:54:20,511 --> 01:54:24,511
You need someone to tell you when to stop with analogies when they're bad.

1476
01:54:24,511 --> 01:54:26,511
Sure.

1477
01:54:26,511 --> 01:54:28,511
I get the point.

1478
01:54:28,511 --> 01:54:30,511
Yeah.

1479
01:54:30,511 --> 01:54:32,511
I think everyone else does.

1480
01:54:32,511 --> 01:54:34,511
Some people like dunking on big blockers.

1481
01:54:34,511 --> 01:54:38,511
And it's funny that you basically described yourself as a big blocker in that
analogy.

1482
01:54:38,511 --> 01:54:48,511
Well, I, you know, I was not, I was never an L1 big blocker ever.

1483
01:54:49,071 --> 01:54:51,071
And I'm an L1 small blocker.

1484
01:54:51,071 --> 01:54:55,071
And there's lots of, enormous amounts of proof of that.

1485
01:54:55,071 --> 01:55:09,071
But what I'm saying is that the dynamic is someone wanted something, but we instead
did the status quo.

1486
01:55:09,071 --> 01:55:11,071
We rejected SegWit2x.

1487
01:55:11,071 --> 01:55:13,071
And that's why we are what we are.

1488
01:55:13,631 --> 01:55:21,631
So that's what, that's like the tribal culture of Bitcoin during this, this, you
know, this intermediate period.

1489
01:55:21,631 --> 01:55:25,631
This is what I, what will be known as the dark ages.

1490
01:55:25,631 --> 01:55:29,631
When historians write a book about Bitcoin, this will be like the middle age, the
dark ages.

1491
01:55:29,631 --> 01:55:33,631
And then there'll be the renaissance, the sidechain renaissance.

1492
01:55:33,631 --> 01:55:41,631
I'm not sure I agree with you there because there's a lot of good stuff that
happened in what you call the dark ages.

1493
01:55:42,191 --> 01:55:48,191
People started writing their own nodes and the importance of doing this became much
more widespread.

1494
01:55:48,191 --> 01:55:52,191
Good stuff happened during the dark ages too, but it, you know, it also sucked.

1495
01:55:52,191 --> 01:56:00,191
Which dark ages had nodes and Raspberry Pis that you could use to run a node?

1496
01:56:00,191 --> 01:56:10,191
I mean that, you know, the European medieval dark ages, people invented like, you
know, construction techniques and things.

1497
01:56:10,751 --> 01:56:12,751
And there were certain types of stuff.

1498
01:56:12,751 --> 01:56:18,751
But it's telling that a lot of that stuff was pushed out towards, I mean, now what
are we talking about now?

1499
01:56:18,751 --> 01:56:20,751
But like, you know, it was pushed out to other places.

1500
01:56:20,751 --> 01:56:30,751
Like thank heavens for that one, what was that one guy who was in Baghdad or
whatever who copied all these books before they were all destroyed.

1501
01:56:30,751 --> 01:56:32,751
He had them all in his library.

1502
01:56:32,751 --> 01:56:36,751
And then, yeah, if it weren't for that, that would have sucked.

1503
01:56:37,311 --> 01:56:43,311
Some Islamic guy in like the 1100s or something.

1504
01:56:43,311 --> 01:56:45,311
How is this relevant for our case?

1505
01:56:45,311 --> 01:56:49,311
I'm saying the dark ages weren't, you know, it wasn't so bad.

1506
01:56:49,311 --> 01:56:55,311
Luckily there was one guy who copied everything into a giant library so that he
could save the day.

1507
01:56:55,311 --> 01:57:01,311
I think that library was called BIP 302.

1508
01:57:01,311 --> 01:57:03,311
That's still not a good analogy, Paul.

1509
01:57:03,871 --> 01:57:05,871
All right.

1510
01:57:05,871 --> 01:57:07,871
Well, you know.

1511
01:57:07,871 --> 01:57:09,871
You win some, you lose some.

1512
01:57:09,871 --> 01:57:11,871
We've spent a lot of time on this.

1513
01:57:11,871 --> 01:57:13,871
I think Shinobi does not want what's best for Bitcoin.

1514
01:57:13,871 --> 01:57:15,871
I think he wants what's best for his own career.

1515
01:57:15,871 --> 01:57:21,871
And I think it's a distant second what's best for Bitcoin.

1516
01:57:21,871 --> 01:57:32,871
And I think at this point he realizes that he's built so much of his reputation on
hating this idea that if it ends up being the best idea in Bitcoin's history,
there's no way that he will not be humiliated.

1517
01:57:33,431 --> 01:57:41,431
For that, which is not even what I want, but it's just literally not preventable at
this point.

1518
01:57:41,431 --> 01:57:45,431
So I think that that is, I think it's all just mistakes.

1519
01:57:45,431 --> 01:57:49,431
But notice that Shinobi never says like shit coins on Bitcoin or whatever.

1520
01:57:49,431 --> 01:57:51,431
We're going to get to that.

1521
01:57:51,431 --> 01:57:57,431
So I tried so hard to not talk in the terms that are going to be presented and
what's coming.

1522
01:57:57,431 --> 01:58:01,431
That's the Baltic Honey Badger debate.

1523
01:58:01,991 --> 01:58:03,991
You had a very high opinion of Baltic Honey Badger.

1524
01:58:03,991 --> 01:58:05,991
What happens if I'm not there?

1525
01:58:05,991 --> 01:58:07,991
It sucks.

1526
01:58:07,991 --> 01:58:09,991
What happened?

1527
01:58:09,991 --> 01:58:11,991
No, it was still incredible.

1528
01:58:11,991 --> 01:58:23,991
But before we get there, and I know I have been teasing this all night, but I saw
that you said something along the lines that you can activate Drivechains on another
altcoin like Litecoin or whatever.

1529
01:58:24,551 --> 01:58:30,551
I don't see Litecoin accepting to do this for the simple reason that they did
Mimblewimble extension blocks.

1530
01:58:30,551 --> 01:58:34,551
And that's kind of a sidechain.

1531
01:58:34,551 --> 01:58:36,551
I don't think they're going to accept this.

1532
01:58:36,551 --> 01:58:40,551
But it seems like the Bitcoin Cash people are open to this.

1533
01:58:40,551 --> 01:58:44,551
And what's your opinion on this situation?

1534
01:58:46,551 --> 01:58:48,551
Well, I don't think it makes sense.

1535
01:58:48,551 --> 01:58:52,551
I'm open for anyone who wants to implement the idea.

1536
01:58:53,111 --> 01:58:57,111
And not only that, but BIP300 is very simple.

1537
01:58:57,111 --> 01:58:59,111
It's just kind of 13,000, like I said.

1538
01:58:59,111 --> 01:59:01,111
The complex stuff is done by the sidechain itself.

1539
01:59:01,111 --> 01:59:03,111
So we have a sidechain library.

1540
01:59:03,111 --> 01:59:05,111
We have minimal sidechains.

1541
01:59:05,111 --> 01:59:07,111
We have sidechain templates.

1542
01:59:07,111 --> 01:59:09,111
And we have example sidechains.

1543
01:59:09,111 --> 01:59:11,111
Most of the work went into that.

1544
01:59:11,111 --> 01:59:21,111
And those are already, like I was saying before, I honestly think those are just
superior to what even the entire Lightning Network will be able to do in three or
four years.

1545
01:59:21,671 --> 01:59:25,671
Beating the current state of the art in many ways.

1546
01:59:25,671 --> 01:59:35,671
So I think that you will, if anyone, if Litecoin adds BIP300, they will instantly
get access to all of that.

1547
01:59:35,671 --> 01:59:41,671
Because the sidechains themselves can work on any BIP300 chain.

1548
01:59:41,671 --> 01:59:43,671
Does that make sense?

1549
01:59:43,671 --> 01:59:45,671
You know what I mean?

1550
01:59:45,671 --> 01:59:47,671
Each sidechain is connected to an L1.

1551
01:59:47,671 --> 01:59:49,671
They plug into an L1 block.

1552
01:59:50,231 --> 01:59:52,231
You plug them into a Litecoin block.

1553
01:59:52,231 --> 01:59:54,231
You still have a Zcash sidechain.

1554
01:59:54,231 --> 01:59:56,231
You have an EVM sidechain.

1555
01:59:56,231 --> 01:59:58,231
You have scaling.

1556
01:59:58,231 --> 02:00:00,231
Scale to 8 billion people tomorrow instantly.

1557
02:00:00,231 --> 02:00:02,231
Prediction markets.

1558
02:00:02,231 --> 02:00:04,231
Namecoin.

1559
02:00:04,231 --> 02:00:06,231
You get all that stuff.

1560
02:00:06,231 --> 02:00:08,231
So I would think some altcoin should try it.

1561
02:00:08,231 --> 02:00:18,231
And of course, there is that one altcoin that is pro BIP300 called SkyDoge that I
have nothing to do with per se.

1562
02:00:18,791 --> 02:00:20,791
They hang out in our Telegram group and they are very funny.

1563
02:00:20,791 --> 02:00:22,791
Okay.

1564
02:00:22,791 --> 02:00:30,791
But where I was basically hinting is that if Bitcoin Cash activates Drivechains and
they get some more activity,

1565
02:00:30,791 --> 02:00:44,791
basically this is a form of MEV, meaning that you're going to pervert the incentives
of Bitcoin miners who use SHOT256 to switch to Bitcoin Cash.

1566
02:00:45,351 --> 02:00:53,351
Because basically you only have a certain number of ASIC miners that are being
produced and deployed.

1567
02:00:53,351 --> 02:00:55,351
In the short run.

1568
02:00:55,351 --> 02:00:57,351
Yes.

1569
02:00:57,351 --> 02:01:09,351
But you see that actually happens if another chain uses the same proof of work or if
any other application uses SHOT256D, that becomes popular.

1570
02:01:09,911 --> 02:01:17,911
So again, it's not really something that happens because of Drivechain, although I
guess it could be the one cause of this particular event.

1571
02:01:17,911 --> 02:01:19,911
But it's not like...

1572
02:01:19,911 --> 02:01:21,911
It's not like...

1573
02:01:21,911 --> 02:01:27,911
Well, this is again, I think when people talk about the interactivity among...

1574
02:01:27,911 --> 02:01:31,911
They say, how will this affect Layer 1 Bitcoin?

1575
02:01:31,911 --> 02:01:35,911
To me, Layer 1 Bitcoin will be affected a lot.

1576
02:01:35,911 --> 02:01:37,911
Kind of no matter what we do.

1577
02:01:38,471 --> 02:01:42,471
So we want to make sure that it survives and wins.

1578
02:01:42,471 --> 02:01:48,471
If a different coin, like whatever, say Bitcoin Cash, becomes more popular and gets
like 8 billion users.

1579
02:01:48,471 --> 02:01:50,471
Just imagine...

1580
02:01:50,471 --> 02:01:56,471
I know a lot of people that such a heretical thought that they can't even open their
mind to it at all.

1581
02:01:56,471 --> 02:02:02,471
And they just want to do whatever it is they normally do instead of engaging in
hypotheticals.

1582
02:02:02,471 --> 02:02:06,471
So if that's you, then good for you.

1583
02:02:07,031 --> 02:02:17,031
Imagine that actually somehow some other SHOT256 chain, such as Bitcoin Cash, they
get 8 billion users.

1584
02:02:17,031 --> 02:02:19,031
Everyone's using their thing.

1585
02:02:19,031 --> 02:02:23,031
What happens to BTC in that scenario?

1586
02:02:23,031 --> 02:02:27,031
You think it stays at $30,000 a coin?

1587
02:02:27,031 --> 02:02:29,031
I'm asking you seriously.

1588
02:02:29,031 --> 02:02:31,031
What do you realistically imagine?

1589
02:02:31,031 --> 02:02:35,031
You wake up tomorrow and Bitcoin Cash has 8 billion users.

1590
02:02:35,591 --> 02:02:39,591
What happens to the price of BTC over the next year?

1591
02:02:39,591 --> 02:02:43,591
You know, it's the most extreme example you could have provided.

1592
02:02:43,591 --> 02:02:47,591
You could say, yeah, Bitcoin Cash gains like 20 million users overnight.

1593
02:02:47,591 --> 02:02:49,591
Because that might be feasible.

1594
02:02:49,591 --> 02:02:51,591
That's an average...

1595
02:02:51,591 --> 02:02:55,591
That's an extreme case to make a point.

1596
02:02:55,591 --> 02:02:57,591
Yeah, but that's not going to happen.

1597
02:02:57,591 --> 02:03:03,591
You even said that your estimation is that half the planet is going to be using
Bitcoin every day.

1598
02:03:04,151 --> 02:03:08,151
Well, I'm saying that the...

1599
02:03:08,151 --> 02:03:10,151
No, I think it's...

1600
02:03:10,151 --> 02:03:14,151
8 billion people could be using...

1601
02:03:16,151 --> 02:03:18,151
I think it's possible that...

1602
02:03:18,151 --> 02:03:26,151
I don't know exactly when, but I think it's possible that 8 billion people could be
using some form of blockchain UTXO payments.

1603
02:03:26,711 --> 02:03:34,711
Bitcoin has money and somewhat non-custodially in the sense of having no fixed
custodian and no...

1604
02:03:34,711 --> 02:03:40,711
There's a transparent process like the law that applies to it.

1605
02:03:40,711 --> 02:03:48,711
Maybe it's not the best process, but they have a procedurally generated blockchain
and they have keys.

1606
02:03:48,711 --> 02:03:52,711
I don't know how long that would take, but it could happen.

1607
02:03:53,271 --> 02:04:01,271
It doesn't matter. Let's say you get hit by a car and you wake up in a coma and it's
30 years from now and 8 billion people are using Bitcoin Cash.

1608
02:04:01,271 --> 02:04:05,271
Then what is the price of Bitcoin in that world?

1609
02:04:05,271 --> 02:04:07,271
Oh, that depends.

1610
02:04:07,271 --> 02:04:11,271
What is the price of BTC in that world?

1611
02:04:11,271 --> 02:04:17,271
It's hard for it to be zero because there's no reason for it to be zero.

1612
02:04:17,271 --> 02:04:19,271
It's still...

1613
02:04:19,831 --> 02:04:23,831
It's still a novelty the same way that baseball cards aren't zero.

1614
02:04:23,831 --> 02:04:25,831
I wouldn't call it a baseball card.

1615
02:04:25,831 --> 02:04:27,831
I mean...

1616
02:04:27,831 --> 02:04:29,831
Why not?

1617
02:04:29,831 --> 02:04:31,831
It depends on a lot of factors.

1618
02:04:31,831 --> 02:04:37,831
You can argue that it's the original chain and yeah, it goes back to the baseball
cards.

1619
02:04:37,831 --> 02:04:39,831
But you can also argue that...

1620
02:04:39,831 --> 02:04:41,831
Yeah, but you could also say DigiCash is the original...

1621
02:04:41,831 --> 02:04:45,831
You could say whatever, like Haber's Tornado is the original chain.

1622
02:04:46,391 --> 02:04:50,391
You could say...

1623
02:04:50,391 --> 02:04:52,391
You could say that...

1624
02:04:52,391 --> 02:04:54,391
What is the thing that you could really say would be the earliest?

1625
02:04:54,391 --> 02:04:58,391
I don't know, but whatever it is, you could find it and say that's the earliest
thing.

1626
02:04:59,705 --> 02:05:02,805
Okay, the odds of that happening are super unlikely, I think.

1627
02:05:02,805 --> 02:05:05,305
I know, but we can't say it's hypothetical.

1628
02:05:05,405 --> 02:05:13,805
It's just to make the point that L1 is affected by the success of a completely
unrelated piece of software.

1629
02:05:14,905 --> 02:05:15,905
I agree with that.

1630
02:05:16,105 --> 02:05:17,705
Right. Yes, you do.

1631
02:05:18,605 --> 02:05:22,005
Because you didn't say, of course, it would still be $30,000 a coin.

1632
02:05:22,005 --> 02:05:24,405
You said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's probably not going to happen.

1633
02:05:25,405 --> 02:05:31,605
Which is code for, I know that it would be 0.00% of world GDP and then change.

1634
02:05:32,805 --> 02:05:33,805
Plus a little, you know.

1635
02:05:35,305 --> 02:05:37,905
But this is not really about the price right now.

1636
02:05:39,005 --> 02:05:41,105
Well, I'm saying, I'm just saying it's affected.

1637
02:05:42,505 --> 02:05:45,705
So people say, what's VIP300, the ability to count to 13,000?

1638
02:05:45,805 --> 02:05:46,705
What's the effects going to be?

1639
02:05:46,705 --> 02:05:49,005
It's like, are you people paying any attention?

1640
02:05:49,005 --> 02:05:52,305
Like, I'm the one unaffecting you right now.

1641
02:05:53,105 --> 02:05:55,605
You're living in the affected world.

1642
02:05:57,105 --> 02:06:02,605
I think you can just put your head in the sand and just be like, oh, it doesn't
matter if people like this software.

1643
02:06:02,605 --> 02:06:14,005
Or if we have developers in charge who care about their own career and they build
impractical junk that gives them a paycheck.

1644
02:06:15,405 --> 02:06:19,605
It doesn't matter if all the podcasts are just people trying to podcast.

1645
02:06:20,305 --> 02:06:23,705
It doesn't matter if no one takes responsibility for Bitcoin actually succeeding.

1646
02:06:25,305 --> 02:06:26,305
Because it's all inevitable.

1647
02:06:26,305 --> 02:06:29,405
We're going to have the Citadel one day and it's going to be, it's going up forever.

1648
02:06:29,505 --> 02:06:31,205
Laura, there is no second best.

1649
02:06:32,605 --> 02:06:34,405
Infinity over 21 million.

1650
02:06:34,405 --> 02:06:35,305
I mean, you know.

1651
02:06:36,705 --> 02:06:38,405
We're part of infinity, don't you understand?

1652
02:06:40,305 --> 02:06:44,405
Okay, let me play an ad and then we can watch that Baltic Honey Badger debate.

1653
02:06:44,405 --> 02:06:49,205
Because honestly, I tried so hard tonight to not make points that were...

1654
02:06:49,205 --> 02:06:50,305
I really haven't seen it.

1655
02:06:50,305 --> 02:06:51,705
I wonder if people believe that or not.

1656
02:06:51,705 --> 02:06:55,305
I've seen like one or two tweets that have like a little quote, but I didn't
really...

1657
02:06:55,905 --> 02:07:03,405
There were moments when I could have replied with Peter Todd's arguments or
Giacomo's and I basically tried, okay, let me not say that.

1658
02:07:03,505 --> 02:07:04,705
Let me say something else.

1659
02:07:06,305 --> 02:07:07,905
So I tried very hard.

1660
02:07:08,305 --> 02:07:13,505
Let's take this 30 second break and then go to watching the debate.

1661
02:07:14,505 --> 02:07:22,105
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self-custody since 2013.

1662
02:07:22,105 --> 02:07:27,505
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steel.

1663
02:07:27,505 --> 02:07:31,805
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1664
02:07:31,805 --> 02:07:38,005
These cold storage devices are made to resist house fires, extreme floods and
physical shocks.

1665
02:07:38,105 --> 02:07:45,205
You can also use CryptoSteel to store your important passwords, BIP39 passphrase or
Nostr private keys.

1666
02:07:45,505 --> 02:07:53,005
Buy your CryptoSteel today from CryptoSteel.com and use promo code BTCTKVR to get a
10% discount.

1667
02:07:53,205 --> 02:07:57,005
CryptoSteel, secure your Bitcoin like an OG.

1668
02:08:02,205 --> 02:08:06,805
Okay, now what you should know is that when I play the video, you're going to be
muted.

1669
02:08:07,205 --> 02:08:08,605
Okay, let's do it.

1670
02:08:08,805 --> 02:08:13,305
And the moment when you start talking, I'm going to pause the video so you can
comment.

1671
02:08:13,305 --> 02:08:13,805
Okay.

1672
02:08:15,705 --> 02:08:16,205
Okay.

1673
02:08:18,805 --> 02:08:22,805
The next on the name, I've got John Carvalho to welcome to the stage.

1674
02:08:22,905 --> 02:08:24,305
You guys know who John is as well.

1675
02:08:24,305 --> 02:08:25,905
So please round of applause for John.

1676
02:08:27,205 --> 02:08:28,905
Sergay is next up.

1677
02:08:28,905 --> 02:08:31,605
Sergay, please, would you take your seat at the panel?

1678
02:08:32,205 --> 02:08:36,505
And last but by no means least, my fellow countryman, Ben Ark.

1679
02:08:36,605 --> 02:08:38,405
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you.

1680
02:08:40,505 --> 02:08:41,305
Can we set the time?

1681
02:08:52,505 --> 02:08:53,105
Hello, hello.

1682
02:08:53,905 --> 02:08:54,505
Hi, gentlemen.

1683
02:08:55,405 --> 02:08:55,905
Hello.

1684
02:08:56,405 --> 02:08:58,205
Thank you for joining me this afternoon.

1685
02:08:58,705 --> 02:09:05,005
I was just told the topic is controversial opinions, unpopular opinions.

1686
02:09:05,805 --> 02:09:08,805
So where should we begin?

1687
02:09:10,605 --> 02:09:11,705
May I suggest something?

1688
02:09:12,305 --> 02:09:14,605
Last year, there was Paul Sztorc here.

1689
02:09:14,605 --> 02:09:18,505
And so one of us will rage quit Bitcoin before a year.

1690
02:09:18,505 --> 02:09:21,205
So I think we should understand who actually.

1691
02:09:25,905 --> 02:09:26,505
Okay, Paul.

1692
02:09:26,505 --> 02:09:29,005
So you're going to rage quit Bitcoin by the end of the year.

1693
02:09:29,105 --> 02:09:30,005
That's the prediction.

1694
02:09:30,005 --> 02:09:34,305
Because I didn't go to Baltic Honey Badger because I had to go to TapConf instead.

1695
02:09:34,905 --> 02:09:35,405
No.

1696
02:09:36,105 --> 02:09:38,605
Because that's exactly what he said.

1697
02:09:38,605 --> 02:09:39,705
He said he's not here.

1698
02:09:39,705 --> 02:09:41,205
So therefore he's going to rage quit.

1699
02:09:42,605 --> 02:09:43,105
Yeah.

1700
02:09:43,505 --> 02:09:45,105
I mean, because I didn't know that.

1701
02:09:45,105 --> 02:09:49,805
What I didn't know is that Baltic Honey Badger is always the first weekend.

1702
02:09:50,205 --> 02:09:51,305
I never kind of put this together.

1703
02:09:51,305 --> 02:09:53,505
It's always the first weekend in September or something.

1704
02:09:54,505 --> 02:09:56,305
Anyway, let's continue watching.

1705
02:09:56,705 --> 02:09:58,505
Musical chair game.

1706
02:09:58,505 --> 02:10:00,205
Somebody will rage quit here.

1707
02:10:00,205 --> 02:10:01,005
Musical chair.

1708
02:10:02,705 --> 02:10:06,905
Is ordinals and inscriptions a dangerous place to start in an unpopular opinion
panel?

1709
02:10:08,105 --> 02:10:09,405
They're dead already, right?

1710
02:10:09,705 --> 02:10:11,505
Now we hate Drivechains.

1711
02:10:13,405 --> 02:10:15,105
Drivechains to start.

1712
02:10:16,305 --> 02:10:17,805
Okay, who would like to take that?

1713
02:10:18,405 --> 02:10:21,105
I would love to hear your unpopular opinion about Drivechains.

1714
02:10:22,405 --> 02:10:23,805
Drivechains are shit coins.

1715
02:10:26,605 --> 02:10:27,105
Yeah.

1716
02:10:28,505 --> 02:10:29,705
But that's popular, John.

1717
02:10:34,605 --> 02:10:36,105
Do you want to comment on this?

1718
02:10:36,105 --> 02:10:37,405
Well, I mean, like, I don't know.

1719
02:10:37,405 --> 02:10:40,305
It doesn't, it's, I know, you know, how big that room is.

1720
02:10:41,205 --> 02:10:43,605
So he got one, one guy to clap.

1721
02:10:43,605 --> 02:10:44,105
Like.

1722
02:10:44,205 --> 02:10:45,305
It's not about the claps.

1723
02:10:45,305 --> 02:10:48,605
It's about what he, what John Carvalho said that Drivechains.

1724
02:10:48,605 --> 02:10:56,105
Yeah, but I mean, John Carvalho has this belief that the peg won't hold, which is
based on his inability

1725
02:10:56,105 --> 02:11:00,705
to, like, he, there's, it's an analogy of like an ATM.

1726
02:11:01,605 --> 02:11:09,905
So the ATM will always give you, if you put $20 in, it will give you $20 credit to
your checking account.

1727
02:11:11,005 --> 02:11:13,805
Or it will take $20 out and give you a $20 bill.

1728
02:11:14,105 --> 02:11:16,505
Now, sometimes it might charge fees.

1729
02:11:17,005 --> 02:11:23,405
And, you know, there's usually the way it works is like, there's a network of ATMs
that you're, that don't charge your fees.

1730
02:11:23,405 --> 02:11:28,705
But if you go outside or if you have to use the one in the foreign country or
something, it charges you more.

1731
02:11:29,105 --> 02:11:34,305
And then what I also stress is that most people will not use the ATM.

1732
02:11:34,305 --> 02:11:41,705
They will not use the BIP300 rail because it is slow and it is designed not to be
used for laypeople.

1733
02:11:42,405 --> 02:11:51,105
It is a special thing that is supposed to be used by whoever is willing to be
patient for three months, which is not going to be the end user.

1734
02:11:53,505 --> 02:11:58,305
And so what I'm saying is you could be out, you go out into the, you know, you go to
a, you're going to concert or something.

1735
02:11:58,305 --> 02:12:03,205
You go to whatever, you're going to Taylor Swift's concert and you get some cash out
of the ATM.

1736
02:12:03,205 --> 02:12:08,805
And then you, someone, you meet someone in the audience who says, oh, I don't kind
of, I don't have any cash.

1737
02:12:11,405 --> 02:12:14,405
I'll Venmo you, but I need, I want, I want some cash.

1738
02:12:15,305 --> 02:12:22,505
And you may not, you may not charge them, you know, you might give it to them at an
even thing, but you also might charge them.

1739
02:12:22,505 --> 02:12:30,405
You might say, listen, I'll give you $60 worth of cash, but I want, I want $61 Venmo
or whatever.

1740
02:12:30,705 --> 02:12:31,405
But that's a good thing.

1741
02:12:31,405 --> 02:12:35,905
All that just makes it so that everyone can get different, can do the conversions at
different.

1742
02:12:38,105 --> 02:12:44,105
They can do the conversions at different speeds and with whoever they want on their
own terms.

1743
02:12:45,105 --> 02:12:55,705
I don't think, I think John Grava is unwittingly contributing to the
misunderstanding of what, you know, like the shit coins on Bitcoin thing by saying
this.

1744
02:12:55,705 --> 02:12:57,605
But I, but this is what he said on Twitter.

1745
02:12:57,805 --> 02:13:06,705
I think John also like, it's like most of his career, similar to Peter Todd, where
it's like the career is based around being contrarian and you get attention that
way.

1746
02:13:06,705 --> 02:13:12,005
And you get, you know, Peter Todd gets flown around the world and people put him up
in different hotels and stuff.

1747
02:13:12,105 --> 02:13:24,705
And I don't think, but he's like, he's on this thing and you see them sort of both
laughing about this, but it's like they, this is like before Peter Todd's tweet
saying that he may not actually understand the idea fully.

1748
02:13:26,505 --> 02:13:38,605
So this is like pre him admitting that, and yet this whole time I paid him months
ago to write this, to write this explanation of what is wrong with the idea.

1749
02:13:39,605 --> 02:13:41,905
And he's still, to this day has not done that.

1750
02:13:44,405 --> 02:13:45,105
So.

1751
02:13:45,105 --> 02:13:50,205
Okay, I'll tell you that you paid him to discredit himself because you knew he would
not come.

1752
02:13:50,205 --> 02:13:50,505
Okay.

1753
02:13:50,505 --> 02:13:51,805
I'm being conspirational.

1754
02:13:52,005 --> 02:13:54,805
Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's, well, what does it say?

1755
02:13:54,805 --> 02:14:01,105
If you, if someone says they believe something and I say, okay, why don't you write
down what you believe?

1756
02:14:01,805 --> 02:14:02,905
And he says, I'm busy.

1757
02:14:02,905 --> 02:14:05,505
And then he picked that the number he charged us.

1758
02:14:06,905 --> 02:14:08,005
We didn't fight it at all.

1759
02:14:09,605 --> 02:14:09,905
Okay.

1760
02:14:09,905 --> 02:14:13,205
Paul, he said, I will write it if you pay me this amount.

1761
02:14:13,205 --> 02:14:14,805
And we said, okay, we'll pay you half now.

1762
02:14:14,805 --> 02:14:16,205
And then half after you finish.

1763
02:14:16,605 --> 02:14:19,805
This is a completely standard terms for that kind of thing.

1764
02:14:20,205 --> 02:14:24,905
But I mean, yeah, I mean, Drivechain, they're not, you know, that they are not
though.

1765
02:14:24,905 --> 02:14:25,105
Right.

1766
02:14:25,105 --> 02:14:25,605
Vlad, right.

1767
02:14:25,605 --> 02:14:28,905
We don't need to explain why do we need, do you think we should explain for the
audience?

1768
02:14:29,505 --> 02:14:30,005
Of course.

1769
02:14:31,405 --> 02:14:32,105
Why they're not.

1770
02:14:32,205 --> 02:14:34,205
Why are Drivechains not shit coins?

1771
02:14:34,205 --> 02:14:36,705
But you know, well, you explain it or no.

1772
02:14:37,505 --> 02:14:38,705
I can explain it.

1773
02:14:38,905 --> 02:14:39,805
Yes, I think you should.

1774
02:14:40,305 --> 02:14:55,905
Basically the mantra or the motive, the whole movement of peg sidechains is to have
the features of shit coins without the shit coin itself and have Bitcoin that's
being locked on the base layer and this being issued on the second layer or the sidechain, call it whatever.

1775
02:14:56,505 --> 02:15:00,905
And you're going to have that amount of liquidity being used on every sidechain.

1776
02:15:01,705 --> 02:15:04,005
So you don't really have shit coins.

1777
02:15:05,005 --> 02:15:08,405
You have Bitcoin, which is being used on a different layer.

1778
02:15:08,605 --> 02:15:10,005
Just like LBTC.

1779
02:15:10,505 --> 02:15:11,005
Exactly.

1780
02:15:11,005 --> 02:15:11,905
It's not liquid.

1781
02:15:12,705 --> 02:15:15,305
And I guess it's unfair to compare it to lightning.

1782
02:15:15,605 --> 02:15:17,205
I think it's exactly fair.

1783
02:15:17,205 --> 02:15:18,405
I think it's exactly the same.

1784
02:15:19,005 --> 02:15:24,905
You lock, you send, you spend the, you have the funding transaction on L1, which is
the two or two multi-signature output.

1785
02:15:24,905 --> 02:15:29,505
And then it shows up in the L2s.

1786
02:15:29,505 --> 02:15:31,105
It shows up in the lightning network.

1787
02:15:31,205 --> 02:15:32,105
It's exactly the same.

1788
02:15:33,105 --> 02:15:42,305
But I guess there's also the uncertainty and the assumption that people are going to
be using these sidechains to issue their own shit coins, be them ordinary.

1789
02:15:42,305 --> 02:15:44,105
You can already do that on lightning also.

1790
02:15:44,105 --> 02:15:46,005
So it's again, it's exactly the same.

1791
02:15:46,005 --> 02:15:48,705
But that's what tarot is and what RGB is.

1792
02:15:49,005 --> 02:16:00,105
But in the lack of a block space limitation, because these sidechains might have a
larger block size, faster block times and whatever, you can open the floodgates for
a lot of spam.

1793
02:16:00,305 --> 02:16:04,205
But I guess it's all fair as long as they pay fees and the miners.

1794
02:16:04,205 --> 02:16:09,205
Yeah, L2 also, like open timestamps also could have an unlimited amount of spam.

1795
02:16:10,605 --> 02:16:14,205
Peter Todd's project, but L1 doesn't see it.

1796
02:16:14,205 --> 02:16:21,005
So that's why we have to stay laser focused on cost of running an L1 node and
everything else does not matter.

1797
02:16:22,805 --> 02:16:25,205
Okay, Paul, new rule with the video.

1798
02:16:25,305 --> 02:16:28,505
So far, I stopped it twice and it was my own initiative.

1799
02:16:28,605 --> 02:16:31,805
From now on, I'm going to let it play and you tell me when to stop.

1800
02:16:32,105 --> 02:16:33,005
And then we'll talk.

1801
02:16:36,205 --> 02:16:37,105
Now with Paul.

1802
02:16:38,505 --> 02:16:41,305
Drivechains, the whole point of them is to not be shit coins.

1803
02:16:42,405 --> 02:16:45,005
Although if they become a shit coin, then that's probably because they failed.

1804
02:16:45,605 --> 02:16:49,505
Can we define Drivechain for the audience members that may not know what that is?

1805
02:16:49,705 --> 02:16:54,205
Well, they are paying me to go write a blog post on this, which may be a little
delayed.

1806
02:16:54,205 --> 02:17:02,305
But the definition basically is that you go and have two BIPs, BIP300/301.

1807
02:17:02,505 --> 02:17:08,505
BIP300 says that you go have a special type of transaction output, which miners can
vote to decide where the money goes.

1808
02:17:09,105 --> 02:17:11,005
Obviously, you'd want to go put your money into that.

1809
02:17:11,405 --> 02:17:22,005
And then the second BIP, BIP301, says that you have some kind of way of what
basically is like voting on the blockchain

1810
02:17:22,005 --> 02:17:25,305
by paying this special type of output to be spent.

1811
02:17:25,605 --> 02:17:30,505
And that special type of output basically creates a thing that can only be done once
per block.

1812
02:17:30,905 --> 02:17:38,205
So that if you or I try to do the same bid, but in different ways, only one of us is
going to wind up paying.

1813
02:17:39,405 --> 02:17:41,605
And then as for the Drivechain thing, just fill in the details.

1814
02:17:41,605 --> 02:17:43,605
It's really easy.

1815
02:17:46,005 --> 02:17:47,905
I think I partially understood that.

1816
02:17:48,305 --> 02:17:49,305
Yeah, it's a hard block to write.

1817
02:17:49,305 --> 02:17:50,305
So it's a shit coin.

1818
02:17:50,705 --> 02:17:52,105
It isn't a flushed out idea.

1819
02:17:52,105 --> 02:17:54,905
No one's written source code that actually does the whole thing.

1820
02:17:55,205 --> 02:17:55,705
Gotcha.

1821
02:17:56,105 --> 02:17:58,405
Giacomo, you always have colorful opinions.

1822
02:17:58,605 --> 02:17:59,305
Well, I...

1823
02:18:01,005 --> 02:18:02,605
Okay, you raised your hand.

1824
02:18:02,905 --> 02:18:04,105
Yeah, you were muted.

1825
02:18:04,105 --> 02:18:05,205
You have muted me.

1826
02:18:05,205 --> 02:18:06,405
So I don't know.

1827
02:18:07,005 --> 02:18:08,305
That's what Jitsi does.

1828
02:18:08,805 --> 02:18:12,405
Okay, so I'll raise the hand then next time because I clicked that button.

1829
02:18:12,605 --> 02:18:15,305
Okay, so yeah.

1830
02:18:15,605 --> 02:18:21,505
So Peter Phan's description was not that accurate, but it was okay.

1831
02:18:21,505 --> 02:18:23,605
Miners don't like literally vote.

1832
02:18:23,605 --> 02:18:25,805
There's an SPV proof.

1833
02:18:25,805 --> 02:18:28,805
So it's literally exactly like confirmations.

1834
02:18:29,105 --> 02:18:36,405
So it's the same way that if you, whatever you, whether or not you are in the
longest chain and whether or not your transaction gets confirmed.

1835
02:18:37,305 --> 02:18:43,105
The same sense that that is a vote is the sense in which BIP300 is a vote, miners
vote.

1836
02:18:43,705 --> 02:18:45,705
It's only the work.

1837
02:18:45,705 --> 02:18:49,605
It's only the 13,000 confirmations that gates whether or not the transaction goes
through or not.

1838
02:18:49,605 --> 02:18:51,705
And it's, of course, slightly more different than that.

1839
02:18:51,905 --> 02:19:00,105
I think it was interesting that, again, he did that joke and we didn't really hear
anyone laugh because people were genuinely very interested in what a Drivechain is.

1840
02:19:00,105 --> 02:19:02,405
And they think it's probably not.

1841
02:19:02,405 --> 02:19:09,105
It's probably more to it than something where miners just have all the coins, which
of course there is.

1842
02:19:10,105 --> 02:19:16,105
So we could get into that, but I don't know how long, how long, about how long is
this?

1843
02:19:16,105 --> 02:19:20,105
32 minutes and we are only three minutes in.

1844
02:19:20,105 --> 02:19:33,105
But yeah, I think he was describing the details, but he didn't explain like what the
point of it is, which is that you have freedom to go to a different piece of
software.

1845
02:19:33,105 --> 02:19:37,105
So it's developers compete and the end user wins.

1846
02:19:38,105 --> 02:19:40,105
But that was OK.

1847
02:19:40,105 --> 02:19:43,105
I mean, he didn't understand 301 really that much.

1848
02:19:43,105 --> 02:19:51,105
There is a bid and stuff, but I think this is a kind of funny video that people will
play in the future.

1849
02:19:56,105 --> 02:19:58,105
I'd love to hear more.

1850
02:19:58,105 --> 02:20:00,105
This is a Breedlove, right?

1851
02:20:00,105 --> 02:20:07,105
And he's moderating and I'd love to know if he got something out of that
explanation.

1852
02:20:07,105 --> 02:20:15,105
No, it's funny because Breedlove wanted to start with ordinal inscriptions and he
was cut short and then he was out of his depth.

1853
02:20:15,105 --> 02:20:17,105
And he was like, so what's a Drivechain?

1854
02:20:17,105 --> 02:20:18,105
Can anyone explain that?

1855
02:20:18,105 --> 02:20:26,105
I think he seemed genuinely curious, which I think is the most we can ask of anyone
who doesn't already know something.

1856
02:20:28,105 --> 02:20:30,105
You want me to keep playing?

1857
02:20:30,105 --> 02:20:32,105
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1858
02:20:32,105 --> 02:20:35,105
You're going to be muted, but you know what to do.

1859
02:20:35,105 --> 02:20:37,105
I agree with people.

1860
02:20:37,105 --> 02:20:40,105
The original purpose was not to create shit coins.

1861
02:20:40,105 --> 02:20:51,105
So the original idea was many shit coins are created because people are trying to
experiment with new ideas, new architecture, new trade off between privacy,
scalability and decentralization.

1862
02:20:51,105 --> 02:20:53,105
So we want to experiment.

1863
02:20:53,105 --> 02:20:55,105
Unfortunately, changing Bitcoin is hard.

1864
02:20:55,105 --> 02:20:57,105
So we are forced to print money.

1865
02:20:57,105 --> 02:21:01,105
We would like not to, but we are forced because we want to experiment with
technology.

1866
02:21:01,105 --> 02:21:09,105
So the idea of the sidechains by blockchain people originally was actually you don't
need to print money in order to experiment.

1867
02:21:09,105 --> 02:21:13,105
You can create another infrastructure that will just reuse the same money.

1868
02:21:13,105 --> 02:21:22,105
So we can basically go to peg Bitcoin to this other system and then back.

1869
02:21:22,105 --> 02:21:26,105
So you can bootstrap new technology without bootstrapping new money.

1870
02:21:26,105 --> 02:21:28,105
The problem is that there is no way to go back.

1871
02:21:28,105 --> 02:21:30,105
You can easily go one way.

1872
02:21:30,105 --> 02:21:34,105
Like, for example, you burn one Bitcoin and you get a side coin.

1873
02:21:34,105 --> 02:21:35,105
That's one way.

1874
02:21:35,105 --> 02:21:36,105
But how do you go back?

1875
02:21:36,105 --> 02:21:41,105
The point is that the actual Bitcoin system is not aware of the side system.

1876
02:21:41,105 --> 02:21:49,105
And if it was, that would be very bad because in that case, everything bad that
happens to the side system will directly influence Bitcoin consensus.

1877
02:21:49,105 --> 02:21:54,105
So the idea of the original sidechain idea was miners.

1878
02:21:54,105 --> 02:21:56,105
We already trust them for canonical ordering.

1879
02:21:56,105 --> 02:22:01,105
So we may as well just trust them also for going back.

1880
02:22:01,105 --> 02:22:14,105
So we put this coin in a kind of output that miners in a majority over time can vote
to unlock to a certain direction.

1881
02:22:14,105 --> 02:22:21,105
The problem is that miners are under no obligation to follow any kind of logic like
this.

1882
02:22:21,105 --> 02:22:26,105
Like, for example, miners could mine invalid transaction.

1883
02:22:26,105 --> 02:22:28,105
OK, go.

1884
02:22:28,105 --> 02:22:31,105
OK, that was pretty good.

1885
02:22:31,105 --> 02:22:40,105
At the beginning, he was a little misleading there when he said the original plan
was not Chikcoins and Bitcoin because it kind of made it seem like I had changed it
to a new plan that was Chikcoins.

1886
02:22:40,105 --> 02:22:43,105
I think I'm just following the original plan.

1887
02:22:43,105 --> 02:22:50,105
It's interesting that he remembers there was a time when it was not an opcode and it
was instead something else.

1888
02:22:50,105 --> 02:22:55,105
It was like an opcode like thing that was this was many years ago.

1889
02:22:55,105 --> 02:23:01,105
And he went on Twitter and then he was criticized by people because in the BIP there
was no opcode.

1890
02:23:01,105 --> 02:23:04,105
So people said, yo, you haven't even read this BIP.

1891
02:23:05,105 --> 02:23:15,105
Now, in a somewhat ironic way, he it has we changed it since back to a BIP, to an
opcode.

1892
02:23:15,105 --> 02:23:21,105
And now he is he kind of wanted to avoid saying that there, which is kind of funny
to me.

1893
02:23:21,105 --> 02:23:24,105
Only funny to me. But now he's getting into the meat of it.

1894
02:23:24,105 --> 02:23:29,105
He did a very good job of explaining like what mostly what the idea was.

1895
02:23:29,105 --> 02:23:34,105
But he's saying the miners have no reason at all to process the withdrawals
honorably.

1896
02:23:34,105 --> 02:23:41,105
But that's not true. They they get they get the fees of the sidechain and they get
the.

1897
02:23:41,105 --> 02:23:48,105
The value add of having a coin that can do everything versus a coin that can do
nothing.

1898
02:23:48,105 --> 02:23:52,105
And every coin that is sent, you have to be enticed.

1899
02:23:52,105 --> 02:23:57,105
It's kind of like a hotel, you know, like the hotel manager can maybe do anything.

1900
02:23:57,105 --> 02:24:01,105
Like they could have you thrown out. Security could throw you out.

1901
02:24:01,105 --> 02:24:06,105
Or the you know, they could call the police and have you thrown off.

1902
02:24:06,105 --> 02:24:10,105
So the hotel manager is in charge of the hotel, but they have to entice you to come.

1903
02:24:10,105 --> 02:24:15,105
And as they come to this hotel, the user would say, really, I like it at my own
house.

1904
02:24:15,105 --> 02:24:17,105
Or they have to entice you to come to your restaurant.

1905
02:24:17,105 --> 02:24:22,105
You know, they could poison the food or whatever, but they want to entice.

1906
02:24:22,105 --> 02:24:27,105
They want customers. So they they fight to attract people.

1907
02:24:27,105 --> 02:24:31,105
And they are under no literal obligation.

1908
02:24:31,105 --> 02:24:36,105
But there's the whole scheme is set up so that it's all automated if they work, if
it works perfectly.

1909
02:24:36,105 --> 02:24:42,105
But if it's if something goes wrong and it will be a nightmare for everyone
involved.

1910
02:24:42,105 --> 02:24:50,105
So I'm sure he's going to explain now why it is that he thinks the miners will miss
withdraw the coins.

1911
02:24:50,105 --> 02:24:58,105
But even so, this is going to miss the point because it's the end user's decision
what security model they want to.

1912
02:24:58,105 --> 02:25:02,105
They choose, you know, they choose for their own for themselves and for their own
money.

1913
02:25:02,105 --> 02:25:07,105
And I have a separate argument that I think actually the Lightning Network is more
vulnerable to minor theft.

1914
02:25:07,105 --> 02:25:12,105
This is just having the miners like basically co-sign something that the sidechain
software writes,

1915
02:25:12,105 --> 02:25:16,105
which is this one hash in return for huge amounts of money.

1916
02:25:16,105 --> 02:25:21,105
So they have to do basically nothing. But let's hear what he has to say.

1917
02:25:21,105 --> 02:25:27,105
But we will just invalidate it so they will lose money if they vote to just move
money around a different way.

1918
02:25:27,105 --> 02:25:33,105
We cannot invalidate that because we are not even supposed to run the consensus of
this other chain.

1919
02:25:33,105 --> 02:25:41,105
So Blockstream partially abandoned this initial idea of miner based stuff and they
moved to a fixed federation liquid.

1920
02:25:41,105 --> 02:25:48,105
And Postdoc took this idea and said, since we are trusting miners already, let's
just simplify it and trust them completely.

1921
02:25:48,105 --> 02:25:55,105
I think that the original reason was not to have shitcoins, but then they had to do
heavy marketing.

1922
02:25:55,105 --> 02:25:58,105
And so now the new narrative is you have token.

1923
02:25:58,105 --> 02:26:03,105
And also I think that the most shitcoinist things of dry change is the style.

1924
02:26:03,105 --> 02:26:09,105
They are using full blown shitcoin style to promote something that we're supposed to
be avoiding shitcoin.

1925
02:26:09,105 --> 02:26:13,105
And if the soft fork will be attempted and fail, it will actually create a shitcoin.

1926
02:26:13,105 --> 02:26:15,105
So it may be.

1927
02:26:15,105 --> 02:26:19,105
So the Drivechain system is effectively a peg to Bitcoin, it sounds like.

1928
02:26:19,105 --> 02:26:21,105
It's meant to be, yes.

1929
02:26:23,105 --> 02:26:24,105
You raised your hand once.

1930
02:26:24,105 --> 02:26:27,105
Yes, well, I don't really know what to make of any of that.

1931
02:26:29,105 --> 02:26:33,105
The marketing is in the style of an altcoin.

1932
02:26:33,105 --> 02:26:35,105
I don't really understand what that means.

1933
02:26:35,105 --> 02:26:38,105
He also implied that you have a token or something.

1934
02:26:38,105 --> 02:26:41,105
Yeah, I don't know what that means either.

1935
02:26:43,105 --> 02:26:46,105
Are you trying to sell the Drivechain token?

1936
02:26:46,105 --> 02:26:48,105
I don't know what that even is referring to.

1937
02:26:48,105 --> 02:26:50,105
There is no Drivechain token.

1938
02:26:51,105 --> 02:26:55,105
Do you want me to rewind that so we can listen to it?

1939
02:26:55,105 --> 02:26:57,105
Just think about it.

1940
02:26:57,105 --> 02:26:59,105
So yeah, I don't know.

1941
02:26:59,105 --> 02:27:01,105
I don't know this about the...

1942
02:27:01,105 --> 02:27:05,105
He's still saying like the original idea versus the new idea.

1943
02:27:05,105 --> 02:27:09,105
There is no such thing.

1944
02:27:12,105 --> 02:27:14,105
So I don't know.

1945
02:27:14,105 --> 02:27:16,105
But let alone multiple.

1946
02:27:16,105 --> 02:27:18,105
That seems to be what he's saying.

1947
02:27:18,105 --> 02:27:19,105
I don't know.

1948
02:27:19,105 --> 02:27:21,105
Maybe he's referring to Bitcoin Hivemind or something.

1949
02:27:21,105 --> 02:27:24,105
But again, that has nothing to do with...

1950
02:27:24,105 --> 02:27:26,105
That's a completely different thing.

1951
02:27:27,105 --> 02:27:28,105
That would already...

1952
02:27:28,105 --> 02:27:30,105
Even if it was like...

1953
02:27:30,105 --> 02:27:32,105
That's a completely different thing.

1954
02:27:32,105 --> 02:27:34,105
And that's required for the peer-to-peer oracle to work.

1955
02:27:34,105 --> 02:27:38,105
That's basically like staking a variable amount of coins.

1956
02:27:39,105 --> 02:27:40,105
But that's...

1957
02:27:40,105 --> 02:27:41,105
I don't even know.

1958
02:27:41,105 --> 02:27:43,105
I'm not sure who's listening at this point.

1959
02:27:43,105 --> 02:27:45,105
And if you are, you're kind of a hero.

1960
02:27:45,105 --> 02:27:48,105
Because it's been two and a half hours.

1961
02:27:48,105 --> 02:27:50,105
And we're not even done yet.

1962
02:27:50,105 --> 02:27:53,105
But Paul mentioned Hivemind.

1963
02:27:53,105 --> 02:27:56,105
And I guess that's your prediction market sidechain?

1964
02:27:57,105 --> 02:27:58,105
Yes.

1965
02:28:01,105 --> 02:28:02,105
That's all?

1966
02:28:02,105 --> 02:28:05,105
Yeah, but that's not like a token that is like...

1967
02:28:07,105 --> 02:28:09,105
That is...

1968
02:28:09,105 --> 02:28:12,105
Like even if that project didn't exist,

1969
02:28:12,105 --> 02:28:17,105
it would still be of crucial value for Bitcoin to do sidechains

1970
02:28:17,105 --> 02:28:18,105
in order to survive.

1971
02:28:18,105 --> 02:28:21,105
In order to have privacy, scalability, etc.

1972
02:28:21,105 --> 02:28:23,105
So yeah, I don't know.

1973
02:28:24,105 --> 02:28:26,105
I don't even know what he's talking about.

1974
02:28:27,105 --> 02:28:28,105
Okay.

1975
02:28:28,105 --> 02:28:30,105
Well, let's go on.

1976
02:28:31,105 --> 02:28:33,105
And this came up in a recent conversation I had

1977
02:28:33,105 --> 02:28:36,105
with the Twilight of Gold series actually.

1978
02:28:36,105 --> 02:28:37,105
Luke Groman.

1979
02:28:37,105 --> 02:28:41,105
He stated it as an economic law that all pegs break.

1980
02:28:42,105 --> 02:28:45,105
If everything is falling in price against Bitcoin over the long run,

1981
02:28:45,105 --> 02:28:47,105
isn't it inevitable that it would break?

1982
02:28:47,105 --> 02:28:49,105
Crypto doesn't necessarily mean that all pegs...

1983
02:28:49,105 --> 02:28:51,105
Like you could hypothetically design things in crypto

1984
02:28:51,105 --> 02:28:53,105
that are not breakable.

1985
02:28:53,105 --> 02:28:55,105
But the big problem is with Drivechains is...

1986
02:28:55,105 --> 02:28:58,105
So a close analogy is actually like SegWit.

1987
02:28:59,105 --> 02:29:00,105
When SegWit was introduced,

1988
02:29:00,105 --> 02:29:03,105
SegWit meant that you'd have a whole bunch of coins

1989
02:29:03,105 --> 02:29:05,105
with what, according to the previous rule,

1990
02:29:05,105 --> 02:29:07,105
where anyone can spend outputs.

1991
02:29:07,105 --> 02:29:10,105
Well, why wasn't that previously insecure?

1992
02:29:10,105 --> 02:29:12,105
Why couldn't miners renege on that?

1993
02:29:12,105 --> 02:29:13,105
Well, because the entire world said,

1994
02:29:13,105 --> 02:29:15,105
hey, we like these sacred rules.

1995
02:29:15,105 --> 02:29:17,105
We're going to run nodes that validate those rules.

1996
02:29:17,105 --> 02:29:19,105
Under that circumstance,

1997
02:29:19,105 --> 02:29:21,105
where we're all validating these rules,

1998
02:29:21,105 --> 02:29:23,105
SegWit's totally secure.

1999
02:29:23,105 --> 02:29:25,105
Because from the point of view of all the people in this room

2000
02:29:25,105 --> 02:29:28,105
who run nodes, which I'm hoping is everyone,

2001
02:29:29,105 --> 02:29:32,105
they're not going to allow transactions that steal those coins.

2002
02:29:32,105 --> 02:29:34,105
Drivechain skips that part and says,

2003
02:29:34,105 --> 02:29:36,105
hey, we can just have new rules,

2004
02:29:36,105 --> 02:29:38,105
but we don't actually need to enforce them.

2005
02:29:39,105 --> 02:29:40,105
If miners go steal the money,

2006
02:29:40,105 --> 02:29:43,105
I guess maybe everyone will go stop it or something like that.

2007
02:29:43,105 --> 02:29:47,105
But when you have 200 Drivechains,

2008
02:29:47,105 --> 02:29:49,105
that's a total mess when you start having thefts happen

2009
02:29:49,105 --> 02:29:52,105
and people are advocating on Twitter,

2010
02:29:52,105 --> 02:29:54,105
no, no, no, we've got to go run the UASF

2011
02:29:54,105 --> 02:29:56,105
to go prevent this $100 million theft

2012
02:29:56,105 --> 02:30:00,105
of Drivechain number 106 that no one really cares about.

2013
02:30:01,000 --> 02:30:03,000
I think Peter Todd should know better than to say some of those things, so I don't
know

2014
02:30:03,000 --> 02:30:05,000
how to do them, but I think I'll try in order.

2015
02:30:05,000 --> 02:30:09,000
So SegWit, the new rules, they don't have to be enforced by the entire world and
everyone

2016
02:30:09,000 --> 02:30:10,000
in this room.

2017
02:30:10,000 --> 02:30:11,000
It's only enough.

2018
02:30:11,000 --> 02:30:17,000
Enough of the people would be doing it so that breaking the rules would be too
difficult

2019
02:30:17,000 --> 02:30:21,000
from a coordination point of view, game theory point of view.

2020
02:30:21,000 --> 02:30:23,000
You just have so many people.

2021
02:30:24,000 --> 02:30:28,000
So it has to be all the miners plus a critical mass of users, which can be very,
very small.

2022
02:30:28,000 --> 02:30:32,000
It can be very small in the same way that if you have a Thanksgiving, well, maybe I

2023
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:35,000
shouldn't do analogies because people don't like them, but Thanksgiving dinner,
someone

2024
02:30:35,000 --> 02:30:37,000
says, oh, let's have it here.

2025
02:30:37,000 --> 02:30:39,000
Everyone wants to be in the same network.

2026
02:30:39,000 --> 02:30:41,000
So it can be a small intransigent minority.

2027
02:30:41,000 --> 02:30:43,000
It doesn't have to be the entire world.

2028
02:30:43,000 --> 02:30:45,000
We're all running the SegWit.

2029
02:30:45,000 --> 02:30:47,000
It doesn't have to be the entire world.

2030
02:30:48,000 --> 02:30:50,000
It doesn't have to be the entire world.

2031
02:30:50,000 --> 02:30:52,000
We're all running the SegWit.

2032
02:30:52,000 --> 02:30:54,000
That's not the case.

2033
02:30:54,000 --> 02:31:00,000
But then at the end, it's very strange for him not to say that there is no, there is

2034
02:31:00,000 --> 02:31:04,000
nothing to the BIP300 rules because of course there is.

2035
02:31:04,000 --> 02:31:08,000
That's the counting to 13,000 part is there.

2036
02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:10,000
And that's the whole point.

2037
02:31:10,000 --> 02:31:15,000
If we didn't need to do that, then there would be no BIP300 and there would be no
conversation.

2038
02:31:16,000 --> 02:31:18,000
And then we would already have Drivechains.

2039
02:31:18,000 --> 02:31:23,000
They would be fully trusting miner because what BIP300 does is it puts the miners
on

2040
02:31:23,000 --> 02:31:26,000
a short leash for the deposits and withdrawal.

2041
02:31:26,000 --> 02:31:34,000
So if we did, we already have, we would already have Drivechains.

2042
02:31:34,000 --> 02:31:37,000
There'd be no BIP300 and there'd be no need for one.

2043
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:38,000
So I don't know.

2044
02:31:38,000 --> 02:31:41,000
He should know better than to say a lot of that was okay.

2045
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:45,000
I noticed that he did say that the peg, he completely ignored what John Carvalho
said

2046
02:31:45,000 --> 02:31:47,000
about the peg not holding.

2047
02:31:47,000 --> 02:31:53,000
So he's clearly just disagrees with John Carvalho, but he knows that he's on the
anti-drive

2048
02:31:53,000 --> 02:31:54,000
chain team.

2049
02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:56,000
So he doesn't want to like bring it up.

2050
02:31:56,000 --> 02:31:59,000
He's a breed love, asked about it specifically.

2051
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:04,000
And he said like, well, forget about what John said and listen to what I have to
say.

2052
02:32:04,000 --> 02:32:09,000
But what he said was flatly incorrect in my opinion.

2053
02:32:09,000 --> 02:32:15,000
But now we're going to hear more about him saying that we're completely trusting the

2054
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:21,000
miners and there is no, there is nothing gating the withdrawals, which is false.

2055
02:32:23,000 --> 02:32:25,000
There's also someone in the chat.

2056
02:32:25,000 --> 02:32:28,000
His name is SanisDoker or something.

2057
02:32:28,000 --> 02:32:30,000
SanisDoker.

2058
02:32:30,000 --> 02:32:35,000
And he says he was referring to the root stock Drivechains token called RBTC.

2059
02:32:35,000 --> 02:32:41,000
It's technically a one-to-one peg, but I suppose it could de-peg.

2060
02:32:41,000 --> 02:32:44,000
That's what he had to add.

2061
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:45,000
Okay.

2062
02:32:45,000 --> 02:32:46,000
But how is that?

2063
02:32:46,000 --> 02:32:47,000
Is that a token?

2064
02:32:47,000 --> 02:32:49,000
Like, I don't know what that means though.

2065
02:32:49,000 --> 02:32:52,000
Isn't that just Bitcoin on root stock?

2066
02:32:52,000 --> 02:32:54,000
So how is that a token?

2067
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:59,000
You can't like sell that to other people and like use that to raise money.

2068
02:33:01,000 --> 02:33:02,000
Yeah.

2069
02:33:02,000 --> 02:33:04,000
Anyway, let's keep watching this.

2070
02:33:06,000 --> 02:33:13,000
I mean, it just creates a gigantic mess for a system that really should be pretty
boring.

2071
02:33:13,000 --> 02:33:21,000
I think the scary part is, of the whole Drivechain debate, is kind of reminded a lot
of us how

2072
02:33:21,000 --> 02:33:24,000
miners can sneak stuff in.

2073
02:33:24,000 --> 02:33:28,000
And the mining itself probably needs to be a bit more decentralized, which is a good
thing that

2074
02:33:28,000 --> 02:33:29,000
they shed light on that.

2075
02:33:29,000 --> 02:33:35,000
And then projects like Stratum V2, which was Matt Crello's first initial criticism
of Drivechains.

2076
02:33:35,000 --> 02:33:38,000
And I think that's healthy and good that that debate was had.

2077
02:33:38,000 --> 02:33:41,000
And it sheds light on that as an issue.

2078
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:45,000
Maybe to add a little more nuance to my, you know, Drivechains or shit coins
comment,

2079
02:33:45,000 --> 02:33:48,000
and with some context from what your answers were.

2080
02:33:50,000 --> 02:33:51,000
You raised your hand.

2081
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:52,000
Yeah, I know.

2082
02:33:52,000 --> 02:33:58,000
I just want to say that whatever, like everyone, Stratum V2 is just, you know,

2083
02:33:58,000 --> 02:34:00,000
I'm happy to support Stratum V2.

2084
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:03,000
I think it doesn't even go far enough, but I also think it's irrelevant.

2085
02:34:03,000 --> 02:34:04,000
So it's irrelevant.

2086
02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:06,000
But this is the thing, that this is what everyone is going to say.

2087
02:34:06,000 --> 02:34:11,000
They're going to say, after they realize how good this idea is, they're going to be
like,

2088
02:34:11,000 --> 02:34:13,000
well, it needs Stratum V2.

2089
02:34:13,000 --> 02:34:16,000
Because everyone, you know, success has many fathers, you may have heard.

2090
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:22,000
So they all want to be like, okay, without me doing Stratum V2, we would never have
had safe Drivechains.

2091
02:34:22,000 --> 02:34:25,000
I could explain that if you want, but we should probably just keep going.

2092
02:34:26,000 --> 02:34:32,000
I'm a bit confused because the intentions of Stratum V2 is to empower every
individual miner

2093
02:34:32,000 --> 02:34:38,000
to vote and opt out from being co-opted into something that they don't like.

2094
02:34:38,000 --> 02:34:40,000
They already are, though.

2095
02:34:40,000 --> 02:34:42,000
They absolutely are already.

2096
02:34:44,000 --> 02:34:47,000
How easy is it to switch mining pools?

2097
02:34:47,000 --> 02:34:49,000
Drop of a hat.

2098
02:34:49,000 --> 02:34:50,000
Costs nothing.

2099
02:34:50,000 --> 02:34:54,000
But you also had that case from, which mining pool was it?

2100
02:34:54,000 --> 02:34:55,000
F2 pool.

2101
02:34:56,000 --> 02:34:57,000
F2 pool, yes, sure.

2102
02:34:57,000 --> 02:34:59,000
The one that collected a very large fee.

2103
02:34:59,000 --> 02:35:01,000
20 Bitcoin.

2104
02:35:01,000 --> 02:35:02,000
Exactly.

2105
02:35:02,000 --> 02:35:08,000
And the owners of the pool decided to return it without any input from the actual
workers.

2106
02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:09,000
Yes.

2107
02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:18,000
Well, the owners of the pool should do whatever is in the best interest of their
members.

2108
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:20,000
They have no choice in the long run.

2109
02:35:21,000 --> 02:35:30,000
But it's not necessarily clear that it's hard to say what is in the best interest
because maybe.

2110
02:35:30,000 --> 02:35:32,000
You don't know.

2111
02:35:32,000 --> 02:35:33,000
It's hard to say.

2112
02:35:33,000 --> 02:35:39,000
Maybe to behave in a dishonorable way would discredit the pool in some other way.

2113
02:35:39,000 --> 02:35:46,000
And so it's the pool administrator's task to keep their customers.

2114
02:35:47,000 --> 02:35:51,000
And if they do that, it's their decision to make.

2115
02:35:51,000 --> 02:35:53,000
It's their call.

2116
02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:57,000
They do this 24-7, 365.

2117
02:35:57,000 --> 02:36:02,000
And they know they have a relationship with their members and clients.

2118
02:36:02,000 --> 02:36:04,000
And they know the industry.

2119
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:12,000
And if they made the wrong decision, then F2 pool will be destroyed soon because
everyone will leave.

2120
02:36:12,000 --> 02:36:16,000
But if they made the right decision, then it will grow or whatever.

2121
02:36:16,000 --> 02:36:19,000
So that's just kind of the reality.

2122
02:36:19,000 --> 02:36:25,000
It's kind of like to keep it could be seen as dishonorable.

2123
02:36:25,000 --> 02:36:33,000
And that could make it seem like the pool is not acting in Bitcoin's best interest
because it's clearly a mistake.

2124
02:36:33,000 --> 02:36:37,000
And we want people to have a positive experience when they use Bitcoin.

2125
02:36:38,000 --> 02:36:46,000
So in the grand scheme of things, it could have reduced the net worth of the mining
machines.

2126
02:36:46,000 --> 02:36:49,000
It's theoretically possible.

2127
02:36:49,000 --> 02:36:53,000
But keeping it would have been not in the best financial interest.

2128
02:36:53,000 --> 02:36:55,000
But in any way, it's their call to make.

2129
02:36:55,000 --> 02:37:01,000
And they suffer the consequences if they make a mistake or if they do the right
thing.

2130
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:02,000
Okay.

2131
02:37:02,000 --> 02:37:04,000
Should we continue?

2132
02:37:04,000 --> 02:37:06,000
I don't see how Stratum V2 would have helped at all.

2133
02:37:06,000 --> 02:37:07,000
It's too late by the time.

2134
02:37:07,000 --> 02:37:13,000
Stratum V2 helps with job selection maybe.

2135
02:37:13,000 --> 02:37:20,000
Like if you still have the 100 block maturity.

2136
02:37:20,000 --> 02:37:27,000
I would be interested to know if someone could write down an example with like a
technical example of how Stratum V2 would have changed that at all.

2137
02:37:27,000 --> 02:37:30,000
I'd be very interested to read that.

2138
02:37:30,000 --> 02:37:34,000
What's the Stratum V2 do that just being able to leave the pool doesn't do?

2139
02:37:37,000 --> 02:37:38,000
Let's continue.

2140
02:37:38,000 --> 02:37:40,000
This is going to take about 100 hours at this rate.

2141
02:37:42,000 --> 02:37:48,000
Like to break it down into like more abstract primitives, stability is not a quality
of a thing.

2142
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:49,000
It's a service.

2143
02:37:49,000 --> 02:37:51,000
And so you can't.

2144
02:37:51,000 --> 02:37:53,000
There's no atomic way to peg.

2145
02:37:53,000 --> 02:37:58,000
And so when you have two separate networks like as Jaco mentioned that are not aware
of each other and shouldn't be aware of each other.

2146
02:37:58,000 --> 02:38:01,000
Although I think Drivechain is not completely sound.

2147
02:38:01,000 --> 02:38:02,000
Symmetrical.

2148
02:38:02,000 --> 02:38:03,000
In that sense.

2149
02:38:03,000 --> 02:38:05,000
The Drivechain is aware of the main chain but not the other way around.

2150
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:09,000
So the service of stability is provided by the escrow of the miners.

2151
02:38:09,000 --> 02:38:14,000
And so there's no real enforcement of stability of the peg.

2152
02:38:14,000 --> 02:38:17,000
And thus you're either going to have an outcome.

2153
02:38:17,000 --> 02:38:18,000
And they're both bad outcomes.

2154
02:38:18,000 --> 02:38:21,000
Where eventually you lose the peg.

2155
02:38:21,000 --> 02:38:22,000
And it trends like counterparty.

2156
02:38:22,000 --> 02:38:24,000
Where it just kind of trends to zero.

2157
02:38:24,000 --> 02:38:28,000
Or even worse potentially is the sidechain.

2158
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:29,000
Now imagine say.

2159
02:38:29,000 --> 02:38:30,000
Let's say Roger Ver was right.

2160
02:38:30,000 --> 02:38:37,000
And we have the sidechain that is you know infinitely increasing or increasing the
demand of the users and block size.

2161
02:38:37,000 --> 02:38:40,000
Say that that becomes more popular than Bitcoin.

2162
02:38:40,000 --> 02:38:43,000
And more everybody moves their coins to the Drivechain.

2163
02:38:43,000 --> 02:38:44,000
How does that express?

2164
02:38:44,000 --> 02:38:45,000
What do we do about that?

2165
02:38:45,000 --> 02:38:46,000
Is that a problem?

2166
02:38:46,000 --> 02:38:49,000
What if we had that spread over many Drivechains?

2167
02:38:49,000 --> 02:38:51,000
And now we have many Drivechains.

2168
02:38:51,000 --> 02:38:55,000
So this stability as a service thing is a good way to look at it.

2169
02:38:55,000 --> 02:38:57,000
Because you can't have an atomic peg.

2170
02:38:57,000 --> 02:38:58,000
And you can't.

2171
02:38:58,000 --> 02:38:59,000
Nothing is stable.

2172
02:38:59,000 --> 02:39:02,000
Because you're just implying counter currencies.

2173
02:39:02,000 --> 02:39:04,000
So thus they are shit coins.

2174
02:39:04,000 --> 02:39:09,000
Because you're converting your Bitcoin to the side coin right to the escrowed
Bitcoin.

2175
02:39:09,000 --> 02:39:12,000
And so thus there's no peg of the value.

2176
02:39:12,000 --> 02:39:16,000
There's no transfer of value.

2177
02:39:16,000 --> 02:39:17,000
Yeah.

2178
02:39:17,000 --> 02:39:20,000
I guess just to be contrary with the group.

2179
02:39:20,000 --> 02:39:23,000
Frankly I don't have a strong opinion.

2180
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:25,000
Go on Paul.

2181
02:39:25,000 --> 02:39:26,000
I mean I don't know.

2182
02:39:26,000 --> 02:39:29,000
I would love to know if anyone can get anything out of that.

2183
02:39:29,000 --> 02:39:31,000
I mean I could give us.

2184
02:39:31,000 --> 02:39:35,000
I think we could hire John to give the same speech about ATMs and say.

2185
02:39:36,000 --> 02:39:41,000
You know the stability is a service of the ATM.

2186
02:39:41,000 --> 02:39:44,000
And there's never any point where it's literally pegged.

2187
02:39:44,000 --> 02:39:49,000
If he would use the software he would see if he deposits 13 coins or whatever.

2188
02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:54,000
You get 13 coins come out the other side every time.

2189
02:39:54,000 --> 02:39:57,000
As Giacomo correctly said.

2190
02:39:57,000 --> 02:40:00,000
It's aware in one direction.

2191
02:40:00,000 --> 02:40:03,000
And then when you withdraw if you withdraw 15 coins.

2192
02:40:03,000 --> 02:40:04,000
And you have a main chain fee in there.

2193
02:40:04,000 --> 02:40:08,000
But if you withdraw do you get exactly that many coins out.

2194
02:40:08,000 --> 02:40:12,000
So it's not a service of the miners at all.

2195
02:40:12,000 --> 02:40:16,000
The miners bless the withdrawal transaction ID.

2196
02:40:16,000 --> 02:40:18,000
The miners find blocks.

2197
02:40:18,000 --> 02:40:23,000
But the protocol just the software just automatically credits you.

2198
02:40:23,000 --> 02:40:25,000
Same as when you take $20 out of an ATM.

2199
02:40:25,000 --> 02:40:28,000
It takes $20 out of your checking account.

2200
02:40:29,000 --> 02:40:30,000
So I don't know what to say about that.

2201
02:40:30,000 --> 02:40:32,000
But we'll see what Sergey has to say.

2202
02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:35,000
I don't have an opinion about Drivechains.

2203
02:40:35,000 --> 02:40:38,000
But one of the things that I'm noticing with this debate.

2204
02:40:38,000 --> 02:40:45,000
And I've seen many of the other things that we often argue over in the Bitcoin
space.

2205
02:40:45,000 --> 02:40:51,000
There's always a fundamental debate between the trade-offs.

2206
02:40:51,000 --> 02:40:57,000
Of whether or not to keep Bitcoin more pure in some way.

2207
02:40:57,000 --> 02:41:00,000
In terms of decentralization or in terms of security and so on.

2208
02:41:00,000 --> 02:41:07,000
Oftentimes on the other side the people that are arguing against the purity side.

2209
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:09,000
Are arguing for some kind of benefits.

2210
02:41:09,000 --> 02:41:11,000
Some kind of use cases.

2211
02:41:11,000 --> 02:41:13,000
Some kind of people and so on.

2212
02:41:14,000 --> 02:41:23,000
We should I think be aware that the idea that we should keep Bitcoin pure.

2213
02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:26,000
Is a very logically consistent opinion.

2214
02:41:26,000 --> 02:41:30,000
But it is at tension with Bitcoin maximalism.

2215
02:41:30,000 --> 02:41:34,000
Because Bitcoin maximalism is the idea that when it comes to internet money.

2216
02:41:34,000 --> 02:41:37,000
Bitcoin is the be all end all.

2217
02:41:37,000 --> 02:41:39,000
It's going to be everything for everyone.

2218
02:41:39,000 --> 02:41:41,000
And so there is tension here.

2219
02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:45,000
Because if we decide that we need to keep Bitcoin pure.

2220
02:41:45,000 --> 02:41:48,000
And for that reason we're willing to trade off the following things.

2221
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:53,000
That means that these things can appear in other situations.

2222
02:41:53,000 --> 02:41:56,000
Security I think is probably the best example.

2223
02:41:56,000 --> 02:42:00,000
There's often this trade-off between security and utility scale.

2224
02:42:03,000 --> 02:42:06,000
Very often things require lesser amounts of security.

2225
02:42:06,000 --> 02:42:08,000
And then we see them appear.

2226
02:42:08,000 --> 02:42:10,000
Other chains that are less secure.

2227
02:42:10,000 --> 02:42:15,000
But where that level of security is useful for certain things.

2228
02:42:15,000 --> 02:42:17,000
Certain things that certain people want to do.

2229
02:42:19,000 --> 02:42:21,000
I think there's a certain tension there.

2230
02:42:21,000 --> 02:42:24,000
That we should be aware of.

2231
02:42:24,000 --> 02:42:28,000
I think it's fair when you think about people on Bitcoin Twitter.

2232
02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:31,000
That are I guess the midwit type saying that argument.

2233
02:42:31,000 --> 02:42:34,000
But you can see here we have nuanced arguments.

2234
02:42:34,000 --> 02:42:37,000
We have rational arguments about what the risks are.

2235
02:42:37,000 --> 02:42:39,000
It's not just about oh nothing new.

2236
02:42:39,000 --> 02:42:41,000
Or nothing complex.

2237
02:42:41,000 --> 02:42:44,000
It's just I don't need that and what you're saying isn't true.

2238
02:42:44,000 --> 02:42:46,000
So why are we doing this?

2239
02:42:46,000 --> 02:42:50,000
There is an inherent risk with the ideology of the maximalist.

2240
02:42:50,000 --> 02:42:53,000
In that Bitcoin is perfect and then shouldn't progress.

2241
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:55,000
And it's not. It's a work in progress.

2242
02:42:55,000 --> 02:42:58,000
And if we want this thing to be the backbone of the future world's economy.

2243
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:00,000
Which I do personally.

2244
02:43:00,000 --> 02:43:02,000
I want everything to be on Bitcoin.

2245
02:43:02,000 --> 02:43:04,000
That's what everyone transacts value through.

2246
02:43:04,000 --> 02:43:07,000
How are we going to do that? How are we going to scale?

2247
02:43:07,000 --> 02:43:10,000
There's a bunch of fundamental things in lightning for example.

2248
02:43:10,000 --> 02:43:13,000
Which needs to be fixed in order to make it easy for people to run in a
self-sovereign way.

2249
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:16,000
But then how do we cater for the world?

2250
02:43:16,000 --> 02:43:18,000
And then I suppose Drivechain.

2251
02:43:18,000 --> 02:43:21,000
They were trying to say that look if you have this system.

2252
02:43:21,000 --> 02:43:24,000
Where we entrust miners as a federation.

2253
02:43:24,000 --> 02:43:28,000
Then you can have these like 200 extra chains.

2254
02:43:28,000 --> 02:43:31,000
In which you can have this different type of economic commerce.

2255
02:43:31,000 --> 02:43:35,000
And I think you know when we had the block wars.

2256
02:43:35,000 --> 02:43:40,000
We did decide that off-chain scaling was probably the way to go.

2257
02:43:40,000 --> 02:43:42,000
Rather than making the blocks bigger.

2258
02:43:42,000 --> 02:43:45,000
And if we do need the whole world to be transacting using Bitcoin.

2259
02:43:45,000 --> 02:43:47,000
I mean maybe that's not what you want.

2260
02:43:47,000 --> 02:43:49,000
Maybe you're just like no I want just Bitcoin just to work for us.

2261
02:43:49,000 --> 02:43:52,000
I think a problem with the idea that Drivechain scale is.

2262
02:43:52,000 --> 02:43:55,000
Computers are a lot cheaper than humans.

2263
02:43:55,000 --> 02:43:58,000
And to the extent Drivechain scale.

2264
02:43:58,000 --> 02:44:04,000
They scale in a way which has risks of very ugly politics.

2265
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:07,000
Because you know Drivechains will probably go fail.

2266
02:44:07,000 --> 02:44:09,000
And in the process of failing.

2267
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:11,000
People will go and use a backup option.

2268
02:44:11,000 --> 02:44:13,000
Of arguing for things like user activated soft forks.

2269
02:44:13,000 --> 02:44:15,000
Go fix that problem.

2270
02:44:15,000 --> 02:44:19,000
And that's a really ugly diversive.

2271
02:44:19,000 --> 02:44:23,000
I knew this was coming.

2272
02:44:23,000 --> 02:44:27,000
Okay so I mean you know the people sitting on one side.

2273
02:44:27,000 --> 02:44:31,000
Seem to be a lot you know.

2274
02:44:32,000 --> 02:44:36,000
I like them more than the people sitting in maybe the mill.

2275
02:44:36,000 --> 02:44:40,000
But yeah I mean of course all that was great.

2276
02:44:40,000 --> 02:44:42,000
Everyone was going pretty well.

2277
02:44:42,000 --> 02:44:44,000
Like you know people are different.

2278
02:44:44,000 --> 02:44:45,000
Transactions are different.

2279
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:46,000
Not everyone wants the same security model.

2280
02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:48,000
Look there's all this other stuff that's real.

2281
02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:50,000
That has real users.

2282
02:44:50,000 --> 02:44:52,000
And Peter Todd is also correct.

2283
02:44:52,000 --> 02:44:57,000
That in an ideal way from the perspective of R&D only.

2284
02:44:57,000 --> 02:45:00,000
Not from any other rational perspective.

2285
02:45:00,000 --> 02:45:02,000
But I'm just saying if you wanted to maximize R&D.

2286
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:04,000
You would launch sidechains.

2287
02:45:04,000 --> 02:45:06,000
And roughly half of them would fail.

2288
02:45:06,000 --> 02:45:08,000
Because you'd want to figure out really quickly.

2289
02:45:08,000 --> 02:45:10,000
Like how far can I push the envelope.

2290
02:45:10,000 --> 02:45:13,000
So he's right that some would fail.

2291
02:45:13,000 --> 02:45:16,000
And now where he's wrong.

2292
02:45:16,000 --> 02:45:20,000
Is he says that politics will affect L1.

2293
02:45:20,000 --> 02:45:22,000
I mean it may.

2294
02:45:22,000 --> 02:45:24,000
But again my claim is that it will be much less.

2295
02:45:24,000 --> 02:45:26,000
Than we're already affected by L1.

2296
02:45:27,000 --> 02:45:30,000
In particular he's very wrong about this UASF thing.

2297
02:45:30,000 --> 02:45:33,000
The UASF again if you fight the miners with the UASF.

2298
02:45:33,000 --> 02:45:34,000
It is a hard fork.

2299
02:45:34,000 --> 02:45:36,000
Because you're breaking the heaviest chain rule.

2300
02:45:36,000 --> 02:45:40,000
So if it's users versus miners in a UASF.

2301
02:45:40,000 --> 02:45:43,000
Then it is a hard fork from the user's point of view.

2302
02:45:43,000 --> 02:45:47,000
The miners cast the tie-breaking vote for every soft fork.

2303
02:45:47,000 --> 02:45:51,000
And the soft fork needs only one of the two groups.

2304
02:45:52,000 --> 02:45:58,000
The UASF was a case where users made it clear.

2305
02:45:58,000 --> 02:46:00,000
That they only wanted to pay for blocks.

2306
02:46:00,000 --> 02:46:02,000
That had a certain.

2307
02:46:02,000 --> 02:46:04,000
That had this segment UASF.

2308
02:46:04,000 --> 02:46:06,000
That in that case that's a good thing.

2309
02:46:06,000 --> 02:46:09,000
The users are being empowered.

2310
02:46:09,000 --> 02:46:12,000
So again people could.

2311
02:46:12,000 --> 02:46:14,000
They don't need to do anything.

2312
02:46:14,000 --> 02:46:16,000
They don't need to care about the politics.

2313
02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:18,000
They may care about sympathy.

2314
02:46:18,000 --> 02:46:21,000
But yeah Drivechain is designed in many ways.

2315
02:46:21,000 --> 02:46:24,000
To evade the UASF style.

2316
02:46:24,000 --> 02:46:25,000
Neutralize it really.

2317
02:46:25,000 --> 02:46:27,000
Because it says you have three months of hash rate.

2318
02:46:27,000 --> 02:46:29,000
Already committed to something.

2319
02:46:29,000 --> 02:46:31,000
So they seem really committed.

2320
02:46:33,000 --> 02:46:35,000
And it's also saying like if you know.

2321
02:46:35,000 --> 02:46:38,000
There's no sense in which this is an accident.

2322
02:46:38,000 --> 02:46:40,000
There's no sense in which anyone's like saying.

2323
02:46:40,000 --> 02:46:41,000
They're confused about what's going on.

2324
02:46:41,000 --> 02:46:43,000
It's like a very slow thing.

2325
02:46:43,000 --> 02:46:45,000
So that they're fully.

2326
02:46:49,000 --> 02:46:52,000
It's like very transparent.

2327
02:46:52,000 --> 02:46:56,000
So the security model of Drivechain.

2328
02:46:56,000 --> 02:46:58,000
Is not based on UASF at all.

2329
02:46:58,000 --> 02:47:00,000
It's based on this economics of miner fees.

2330
02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:03,000
And the idea that miners want the coin to do well.

2331
02:47:03,000 --> 02:47:08,000
You can see that with a 20 Bitcoin giveaway thing.

2332
02:47:08,000 --> 02:47:10,000
That miners sometimes say.

2333
02:47:10,000 --> 02:47:13,000
Okay my short-term interests of this fee.

2334
02:47:13,000 --> 02:47:16,000
Do not outweigh the whole Bitcoin brand.

2335
02:47:16,000 --> 02:47:17,000
So maybe they would you know.

2336
02:47:17,000 --> 02:47:19,000
That's just proves to you that it's.

2337
02:47:19,000 --> 02:47:21,000
Theoretically it's possible.

2338
02:47:21,000 --> 02:47:23,000
Even if there's no fees.

2339
02:47:23,000 --> 02:47:26,000
And the UASF idea is.

2340
02:47:28,000 --> 02:47:29,000
It's you know.

2341
02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:30,000
It's designed to.

2342
02:47:30,000 --> 02:47:32,000
Drivechain is designed to resist that.

2343
02:47:35,000 --> 02:47:36,000
By having the long delay.

2344
02:47:36,000 --> 02:47:39,000
And saying that there's plenty of time.

2345
02:47:39,000 --> 02:47:40,000
Before it would even happen.

2346
02:47:41,000 --> 02:47:43,000
But there are these other events in Bitcoin's history.

2347
02:47:43,000 --> 02:47:44,000
The value overflow incident.

2348
02:47:44,000 --> 02:47:47,000
And this July 2015.

2349
02:47:51,000 --> 02:47:53,000
Like database lock thing that happened.

2350
02:47:53,000 --> 02:47:57,000
And so it's actually designed to shed.

2351
02:47:58,000 --> 02:48:01,000
The effects of the UASF.

2352
02:48:03,000 --> 02:48:04,000
The drama.

2353
02:48:04,000 --> 02:48:06,000
It's time to shed the drama as rapidly as possible.

2354
02:48:06,000 --> 02:48:08,000
But the thing is of course you could do UASF.

2355
02:48:08,000 --> 02:48:10,000
For any reason at any time.

2356
02:48:10,000 --> 02:48:11,000
People could just decide.

2357
02:48:11,000 --> 02:48:13,000
Like next Tuesday we're going to do UASF.

2358
02:48:13,000 --> 02:48:14,000
For this.

2359
02:48:15,000 --> 02:48:17,000
They could decide that they will do UASF.

2360
02:48:17,000 --> 02:48:19,000
To force the.

2361
02:48:19,000 --> 02:48:21,000
To force Drivechain to activate.

2362
02:48:21,000 --> 02:48:22,000
Or to force it not to activate.

2363
02:48:22,000 --> 02:48:23,000
Or to whatever.

2364
02:48:24,000 --> 02:48:25,000
Force the miners to steal.

2365
02:48:25,000 --> 02:48:27,000
Force the miners to be unable to steal.

2366
02:48:27,000 --> 02:48:28,000
Force nothing.

2367
02:48:28,000 --> 02:48:31,000
So the UASF is just the users getting what they want.

2368
02:48:31,000 --> 02:48:32,000
And we should be.

2369
02:48:32,000 --> 02:48:33,000
If they pull that off ever.

2370
02:48:33,000 --> 02:48:35,000
We should be happy about that.

2371
02:48:35,000 --> 02:48:36,000
They will be able.

2372
02:48:36,000 --> 02:48:37,000
Over in the long run.

2373
02:48:37,000 --> 02:48:39,000
They will always be able to pull that off.

2374
02:48:39,000 --> 02:48:41,000
And because they always get what they want.

2375
02:48:41,000 --> 02:48:42,000
Which is a good thing.

2376
02:48:42,000 --> 02:48:43,000
But I think it's clear.

2377
02:48:43,000 --> 02:48:44,000
The whole.

2378
02:48:44,000 --> 02:48:45,000
The idea of separable zones.

2379
02:48:46,000 --> 02:48:47,000
Is.

2380
02:48:47,000 --> 02:48:48,000
That's the whole.

2381
02:48:49,000 --> 02:48:50,000
That's the whole idea.

2382
02:48:50,000 --> 02:48:52,000
And the idea is that.

2383
02:48:52,000 --> 02:48:54,000
If miners mine on something.

2384
02:48:54,000 --> 02:48:55,000
See.

2385
02:48:55,000 --> 02:48:56,000
Well.

2386
02:48:56,000 --> 02:48:57,000
Why don't we let him finish his thought.

2387
02:48:57,000 --> 02:48:59,000
And then we'll reply to the whole thing.

2388
02:48:59,000 --> 02:49:00,000
But we'll see.

2389
02:49:00,000 --> 02:49:01,000
Yes.

2390
02:49:03,000 --> 02:49:04,000
The thing.

2391
02:49:04,000 --> 02:49:06,000
Whereas if you just want to go scale up.

2392
02:49:06,000 --> 02:49:08,000
If you just increase the block size.

2393
02:49:08,000 --> 02:49:09,000
I mean that everyone throws.

2394
02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:11,000
Relatively cheap computing hardware at the problem.

2395
02:49:11,000 --> 02:49:12,000
And.

2396
02:49:12,000 --> 02:49:13,000
That's probably a much better outcome.

2397
02:49:13,000 --> 02:49:15,000
To get say a 10x scaling.

2398
02:49:15,000 --> 02:49:16,000
Than having.

2399
02:49:16,000 --> 02:49:18,000
Ten more different Drivechains.

2400
02:49:18,000 --> 02:49:19,000
With different characteristics.

2401
02:49:19,000 --> 02:49:20,000
And a whole ton of complexity.

2402
02:49:20,000 --> 02:49:22,000
And a whole bunch of Twitter wars.

2403
02:49:22,000 --> 02:49:23,000
So we scale for.

2404
02:49:23,000 --> 02:49:25,000
So more people can put ordinals on Bitcoin.

2405
02:49:26,000 --> 02:49:27,000
I'd just say.

2406
02:49:27,000 --> 02:49:28,000
Between the two of them.

2407
02:49:28,000 --> 02:49:29,000
Throwing computing from.

2408
02:49:29,000 --> 02:49:30,000
You know.

2409
02:49:30,000 --> 02:49:31,000
Throwing computers at the problem.

2410
02:49:31,000 --> 02:49:32,000
Is just so much cheaper.

2411
02:49:32,000 --> 02:49:33,000
Like.

2412
02:49:33,000 --> 02:49:34,000
You know.

2413
02:49:34,000 --> 02:49:35,000
I don't think the 10x scaling increase.

2414
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:37,000
Is something we should do anytime soon.

2415
02:49:37,000 --> 02:49:38,000
Hopefully we figure a way.

2416
02:49:38,000 --> 02:49:39,000
To never have to do it.

2417
02:49:39,000 --> 02:49:40,000
But.

2418
02:49:40,000 --> 02:49:41,000
It's certainly more desirable.

2419
02:49:41,000 --> 02:49:42,000
Than an outcome.

2420
02:49:42,000 --> 02:49:43,000
Where you've scaled.

2421
02:49:43,000 --> 02:49:44,000
By.

2422
02:49:44,000 --> 02:49:45,000
Doing a whole bunch of Drivechains.

2423
02:49:45,000 --> 02:49:46,000
Which are critically important.

2424
02:49:46,000 --> 02:49:47,000
To the world's commerce.

2425
02:49:47,000 --> 02:49:48,000
But they also fail.

2426
02:49:48,000 --> 02:49:49,000
So it's Peter Rage quitting.

2427
02:49:49,000 --> 02:49:50,000
Peter is moving to Big Cash.

2428
02:49:50,000 --> 02:49:51,000
The next year.

2429
02:49:51,000 --> 02:49:52,000
We'll find him.

2430
02:49:52,000 --> 02:49:53,000
We spotted him.

2431
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:54,000
I was going to ask.

2432
02:49:54,000 --> 02:49:55,000
No.

2433
02:49:55,000 --> 02:49:56,000
But he's right.

2434
02:49:56,000 --> 02:49:57,000
In that like.

2435
02:49:57,000 --> 02:49:58,000
You can actually assess.

2436
02:49:58,000 --> 02:49:59,000
You know.

2437
02:49:59,000 --> 02:50:00,000
On chain scaling.

2438
02:50:00,000 --> 02:50:01,000
You can look at it.

2439
02:50:01,000 --> 02:50:02,000
And say.

2440
02:50:02,000 --> 02:50:03,000
You can even do studies.

2441
02:50:03,000 --> 02:50:04,000
And say how much it will.

2442
02:50:04,000 --> 02:50:05,000
Okay.

2443
02:50:05,000 --> 02:50:06,000
So first of all.

2444
02:50:06,000 --> 02:50:07,000
I misunderstood.

2445
02:50:07,000 --> 02:50:08,000
His original joke.

2446
02:50:08,000 --> 02:50:09,000
Was that I had already Rage Quit.

2447
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:10,000
And that someone.

2448
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:11,000
On this year's stage.

2449
02:50:11,000 --> 02:50:12,000
Would be next.

2450
02:50:12,000 --> 02:50:13,000
And he's saying.

2451
02:50:13,000 --> 02:50:14,000
It's Peter.

2452
02:50:14,000 --> 02:50:15,000
So I misunderstood.

2453
02:50:15,000 --> 02:50:16,000
His earlier joke.

2454
02:50:16,000 --> 02:50:17,000
So then.

2455
02:50:17,000 --> 02:50:18,000
Peter again.

2456
02:50:18,000 --> 02:50:19,000
So like.

2457
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:20,000
The way that the.

2458
02:50:20,000 --> 02:50:21,000
The UASF.

2459
02:50:21,000 --> 02:50:22,000
It's not really.

2460
02:50:22,000 --> 02:50:23,000
Since it breaks.

2461
02:50:23,000 --> 02:50:24,000
The heaviest chain rule.

2462
02:50:24,000 --> 02:50:25,000
If you fight the miners.

2463
02:50:25,000 --> 02:50:26,000
It's really a hard fork.

2464
02:50:26,000 --> 02:50:27,000
So it's.

2465
02:50:27,000 --> 02:50:28,000
It's not UASF.

2466
02:50:28,000 --> 02:50:29,000
It's just a hard fork.

2467
02:50:29,000 --> 02:50:30,000
Which again.

2468
02:50:30,000 --> 02:50:31,000
Can be done at any time.

2469
02:50:31,000 --> 02:50:32,000
And that's also disruptive.

2470
02:50:32,000 --> 02:50:33,000
But the.

2471
02:50:33,000 --> 02:50:34,000
The way it's set up.

2472
02:50:34,000 --> 02:50:35,000
It has no downsides.

2473
02:50:35,000 --> 02:50:36,000
So it's either.

2474
02:50:36,000 --> 02:50:37,000
The.

2475
02:50:37,000 --> 02:50:38,000
You.

2476
02:50:38,000 --> 02:50:39,000
Either the users.

2477
02:50:39,000 --> 02:50:40,000
Ban the miners.

2478
02:50:40,000 --> 02:50:41,000
Theft transaction.

2479
02:50:41,000 --> 02:50:42,000
And the miners fold.

2480
02:50:42,000 --> 02:50:43,000
In which case.

2481
02:50:43,000 --> 02:50:44,000
Nothing happens.

2482
02:50:44,000 --> 02:50:45,000
The miners just lose.

2483
02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:46,000
And nothing happens.

2484
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:47,000
There's no reorg.

2485
02:50:47,000 --> 02:50:48,000
There's no.

2486
02:50:48,000 --> 02:50:49,000
Anything.

2487
02:50:49,000 --> 02:50:50,000
Or.

2488
02:50:50,000 --> 02:50:51,000
They.

2489
02:50:51,000 --> 02:50:52,000
The miners.

2490
02:50:52,000 --> 02:50:53,000
Don't fold.

2491
02:50:53,000 --> 02:50:54,000
And they succeed.

2492
02:50:54,000 --> 02:50:55,000
With the theft.

2493
02:50:55,000 --> 02:50:56,000
And then everyone.

2494
02:50:56,000 --> 02:50:57,000
Who opted in.

2495
02:50:57,000 --> 02:50:58,000
Only.

2496
02:50:58,000 --> 02:50:59,000
They're on a.

2497
02:50:59,000 --> 02:51:00,000
A chain.

2498
02:51:00,000 --> 02:51:01,000
That has no.

2499
02:51:01,000 --> 02:51:02,000
Hash rate on it.

2500
02:51:02,000 --> 02:51:03,000
So it's.

2501
02:51:03,000 --> 02:51:04,000
Also the case.

2502
02:51:04,000 --> 02:51:05,000
That nothing happens.

2503
02:51:05,000 --> 02:51:06,000
They're really on a hard.

2504
02:51:06,000 --> 02:51:07,000
They basically hard fork.

2505
02:51:07,000 --> 02:51:08,000
Themselves.

2506
02:51:08,000 --> 02:51:09,000
Onto a chain.

2507
02:51:09,000 --> 02:51:10,000
That has no blocks.

2508
02:51:10,000 --> 02:51:11,000
So.

2509
02:51:11,000 --> 02:51:12,000
Either way.

2510
02:51:12,000 --> 02:51:13,000
Nothing happens.

2511
02:51:13,000 --> 02:51:14,000
At all.

2512
02:51:14,000 --> 02:51:15,000
So it's actually.

2513
02:51:15,000 --> 02:51:16,000
The idea of.

2514
02:51:16,000 --> 02:51:17,000
Calling it a UASF.

2515
02:51:17,000 --> 02:51:18,000
Similar to SegWit.

2516
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:19,000
Where there's.

2517
02:51:19,000 --> 02:51:20,000
Twitter wars.

2518
02:51:20,000 --> 02:51:21,000
And there's.

2519
02:51:21,000 --> 02:51:22,000
Hats.

2520
02:51:22,000 --> 02:51:23,000
It's completely.

2521
02:51:23,000 --> 02:51:24,000
100%.

2522
02:51:24,000 --> 02:51:25,000
False.

2523
02:51:25,000 --> 02:51:26,000
It's a very.

2524
02:51:26,000 --> 02:51:27,000
Carefully.

2525
02:51:27,000 --> 02:51:28,000
Set up.

2526
02:51:28,000 --> 02:51:29,000
So that it does not.

2527
02:51:29,000 --> 02:51:30,000
Have any negative.

2528
02:51:30,000 --> 02:51:31,000
Impact.

2529
02:51:31,000 --> 02:51:32,000
And.

2530
02:51:32,000 --> 02:51:33,000
The.

2531
02:51:33,000 --> 02:51:34,000
I think.

2532
02:51:34,000 --> 02:51:35,000
Let me see.

2533
02:51:35,000 --> 02:51:36,000
If.

2534
02:51:36,000 --> 02:51:37,000
I'm going to try.

2535
02:51:37,000 --> 02:51:38,000
To explain this.

2536
02:51:38,000 --> 02:51:39,000
Here.

2537
02:51:39,000 --> 02:51:40,000
The.

2538
02:51:40,000 --> 02:51:41,000
You should.

2539
02:51:41,000 --> 02:51:42,000
Watch my.

2540
02:51:42,000 --> 02:51:43,000
Soft fork.

2541
02:51:43,000 --> 02:51:44,000
Panel.

2542
02:51:44,000 --> 02:51:45,000
With Jimmy.

2543
02:51:45,000 --> 02:51:46,000
Song.

2544
02:51:46,000 --> 02:51:47,000
And Jeremy.

2545
02:51:47,000 --> 02:51:48,000
Rubin.

2546
02:51:48,000 --> 02:51:49,000
The.

2547
02:51:49,000 --> 02:51:50,000
Soft fork.

2548
02:51:50,000 --> 02:51:51,000
Has.

2549
02:51:51,000 --> 02:51:52,000
Had.

2550
02:51:52,000 --> 02:51:53,000
Two different.

2551
02:51:53,000 --> 02:51:54,000
Definitions.

2552
02:51:54,000 --> 02:51:55,000
That sometimes overlap.

2553
02:51:55,000 --> 02:51:56,000
Sometimes are.

2554
02:51:56,000 --> 02:51:57,000
Irrelevant to each other.

2555
02:51:57,000 --> 02:51:58,000
And sometimes are.

2556
02:51:58,000 --> 02:51:59,000
Directly.

2557
02:51:59,000 --> 02:52:00,000
Contradict each other.

2558
02:52:00,000 --> 02:52:01,000
And those two.

2559
02:52:01,000 --> 02:52:02,000
Definitions are.

2560
02:52:02,000 --> 02:52:03,000
Tightening the rules.

2561
02:52:03,000 --> 02:52:04,000
Was loosening.

2562
02:52:04,000 --> 02:52:05,000
And then the other.

2563
02:52:05,000 --> 02:52:06,000
Definition is.

2564
02:52:06,000 --> 02:52:07,000
Does everyone.

2565
02:52:07,000 --> 02:52:08,000
Need to upgrade.

2566
02:52:08,000 --> 02:52:09,000
Or not.

2567
02:52:09,000 --> 02:52:10,000
So.

2568
02:52:10,000 --> 02:52:11,000
Those are the two.

2569
02:52:11,000 --> 02:52:12,000
When you.

2570
02:52:12,000 --> 02:52:13,000
You change that.

2571
02:52:13,000 --> 02:52:14,000
Does that.

2572
02:52:14,000 --> 02:52:15,000
Have people.

2573
02:52:15,000 --> 02:52:16,000
Not be able to see me.

2574
02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:17,000
The whole time.

2575
02:52:17,000 --> 02:52:18,000
Or.

2576
02:52:18,000 --> 02:52:19,000
I just wanted to.

2577
02:52:19,000 --> 02:52:20,000
Enlarge the image.

2578
02:52:20,000 --> 02:52:21,000
So people can.

2579
02:52:21,000 --> 02:52:22,000
Watch you.

2580
02:52:22,000 --> 02:52:23,000
While you explain.

2581
02:52:23,000 --> 02:52:24,000
The.

2582
02:52:24,000 --> 02:52:25,000
So this.

2583
02:52:25,000 --> 02:52:26,000
The idea.

2584
02:52:26,000 --> 02:52:27,000
Of it being USF.

2585
02:52:27,000 --> 02:52:28,000
The same.

2586
02:52:28,000 --> 02:52:29,000
Like I already thought of that.

2587
02:52:29,000 --> 02:52:30,000
Back in 2016.

2588
02:52:30,000 --> 02:52:31,000
And I designed it.

2589
02:52:31,000 --> 02:52:32,000
So that I would never have that.

2590
02:52:32,000 --> 02:52:33,000
The property of the drama.

2591
02:52:33,000 --> 02:52:34,000
Leaking one way.

2592
02:52:34,000 --> 02:52:35,000
It's like.

2593
02:52:35,000 --> 02:52:36,000
But even if it did.

2594
02:52:36,000 --> 02:52:37,000
I would consider that a success.

2595
02:52:37,000 --> 02:52:38,000
I would say.

2596
02:52:38,000 --> 02:52:39,000
Oh look.

2597
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:40,000
The users of L1.

2598
02:52:40,000 --> 02:52:41,000
They felt sorry.

2599
02:52:41,000 --> 02:52:42,000
For the users of L2.

2600
02:52:42,000 --> 02:52:43,000
And they.

2601
02:52:43,000 --> 02:52:44,000
They protected.

2602
02:52:44,000 --> 02:52:45,000
Their privacy.

2603
02:52:45,000 --> 02:52:46,000
And they.

2604
02:52:46,000 --> 02:52:47,000
They protected.

2605
02:52:47,000 --> 02:52:48,000
Their privacy.

2606
02:52:49,000 --> 02:52:50,000
They protected them.

2607
02:52:50,000 --> 02:52:51,000
They chose to protect them.

2608
02:52:51,000 --> 02:52:52,000
Now if you're on L1.

2609
02:52:52,000 --> 02:52:53,000
And you want to ignore all of that.

2610
02:52:53,000 --> 02:52:54,000
Like I said.

2611
02:52:54,000 --> 02:52:55,000
You either ignore it.

2612
02:52:55,000 --> 02:52:56,000
And nothing happens.

2613
02:52:56,000 --> 02:52:57,000
Or it.

2614
02:52:57,000 --> 02:52:58,000
You either ignore it.

2615
02:52:58,000 --> 02:52:59,000
And something other happens.

2616
02:52:59,000 --> 02:53:00,000
Or it doesn't happen.

2617
02:53:00,000 --> 02:53:01,000
But either way.

2618
02:53:01,000 --> 02:53:02,000
You just end up.

2619
02:53:02,000 --> 02:53:03,000
This is the magic of the software.

2620
02:53:03,000 --> 02:53:04,000
Because you end up.

2621
02:53:04,000 --> 02:53:05,000
On the longest chain.

2622
02:53:05,000 --> 02:53:06,000
You end up with everyone.

2623
02:53:06,000 --> 02:53:07,000
So.

2624
02:53:07,000 --> 02:53:08,000
It really has no downsides.

2625
02:53:08,000 --> 02:53:09,000
At all.

2626
02:53:09,000 --> 02:53:10,000
I don't know.

2627
02:53:10,000 --> 02:53:11,000
If this is the easiest.

2628
02:53:11,000 --> 02:53:12,000
I don't know.

2629
02:53:12,000 --> 02:53:13,000
If I have a good way.

2630
02:53:13,000 --> 02:53:14,000
Of making this clear.

2631
02:53:14,000 --> 02:53:15,000
Or if I should write.

2632
02:53:15,000 --> 02:53:16,000
Some kind of.

2633
02:53:16,000 --> 02:53:17,000
Diagram.

2634
02:53:17,000 --> 02:53:18,000
Or something about this.

2635
02:53:18,000 --> 02:53:19,000
But.

2636
02:53:19,000 --> 02:53:20,000
It's designed.

2637
02:53:20,000 --> 02:53:21,000
Even in the case of the UASF.

2638
02:53:21,000 --> 02:53:22,000
Where you think.

2639
02:53:22,000 --> 02:53:23,000
It's like a human sympathy thing.

2640
02:53:23,000 --> 02:53:24,000
Where you think.

2641
02:53:24,000 --> 02:53:25,000
Of course it can travel.

2642
02:53:25,000 --> 02:53:26,000
Across chain.

2643
02:53:26,000 --> 02:53:27,000
In any direction.

2644
02:53:27,000 --> 02:53:29,000
But even in that case.

2645
02:53:29,000 --> 02:53:31,000
The users of L1.

2646
02:53:31,000 --> 02:53:33,000
Who do not want to pay attention.

2647
02:53:33,000 --> 02:53:34,000
Don't.

2648
02:53:34,000 --> 02:53:35,000
And it's exactly.

2649
02:53:35,000 --> 02:53:36,000
For that reason.

2650
02:53:36,000 --> 02:53:37,000
That Peter's.

2651
02:53:37,000 --> 02:53:38,000
Point is upside down.

2652
02:53:38,000 --> 02:53:39,000
It.

2653
02:53:39,000 --> 02:53:40,000
It does respect.

2654
02:53:40,000 --> 02:53:41,000
The attention of humans.

2655
02:53:41,000 --> 02:53:42,000
On L1.

2656
02:53:42,000 --> 02:53:43,000
And so.

2657
02:53:43,000 --> 02:53:44,000
If he's saying.

2658
02:53:44,000 --> 02:53:45,000
That it won't be so bad.

2659
02:53:45,000 --> 02:53:46,000
To have more hardware requirements.

2660
02:53:46,000 --> 02:53:47,000
For nodes.

2661
02:53:47,000 --> 02:53:48,000
Which again.

2662
02:53:48,000 --> 02:53:49,000
The node.

2663
02:53:49,000 --> 02:53:50,000
Hardware requirements are.

2664
02:53:50,000 --> 02:53:51,000
You know.

2665
02:53:51,000 --> 02:53:52,000
Microscopic.

2666
02:53:52,000 --> 02:53:53,000
Compared to the mining.

2667
02:53:53,000 --> 02:53:54,000
Hardware.

2668
02:53:54,000 --> 02:53:55,000
Which are.

2669
02:53:55,000 --> 02:53:56,000
Tens of millions of dollars.

2670
02:53:56,000 --> 02:53:57,000
The node.

2671
02:53:57,000 --> 02:53:58,000
Hardware requirements.

2672
02:53:58,000 --> 02:53:59,000
Are not that bad.

2673
02:53:59,000 --> 02:54:00,000
And of course.

2674
02:54:00,000 --> 02:54:01,000
As technology improves.

2675
02:54:01,000 --> 02:54:02,000
It does get easier.

2676
02:54:02,000 --> 02:54:03,000
Every year.

2677
02:54:03,000 --> 02:54:04,000
I wrote a post.

2678
02:54:04,000 --> 02:54:05,000
Called.

2679
02:54:05,000 --> 02:54:06,000
The thunder.

2680
02:54:06,000 --> 02:54:07,000
As a little joke.

2681
02:54:07,000 --> 02:54:08,000
And in an appendix.

2682
02:54:08,000 --> 02:54:09,000
I estimated.

2683
02:54:09,000 --> 02:54:10,000
How much it would cost.

2684
02:54:10,000 --> 02:54:11,000
To have.

2685
02:54:11,000 --> 02:54:12,000
One gigabyte nodes.

2686
02:54:12,000 --> 02:54:13,000
Which is of course.

2687
02:54:13,000 --> 02:54:14,000
Absurdly.

2688
02:54:14,000 --> 02:54:15,000
You mean.

2689
02:54:15,000 --> 02:54:16,000
One gigabyte blocks.

2690
02:54:16,000 --> 02:54:17,000
Not nodes.

2691
02:54:17,000 --> 02:54:18,000
One gigabyte.

2692
02:54:18,000 --> 02:54:19,000
One gigabyte blocks.

2693
02:54:19,000 --> 02:54:20,000
Right.

2694
02:54:20,000 --> 02:54:21,000
Which is absurd.

2695
02:54:21,000 --> 02:54:22,000
And we should never do.

2696
02:54:22,000 --> 02:54:23,000
But I just thought.

2697
02:54:23,000 --> 02:54:24,000
What would that cost?

2698
02:54:24,000 --> 02:54:25,000
On a sidechain.

2699
02:54:25,000 --> 02:54:26,000
You can have UTXO commitments.

2700
02:54:26,000 --> 02:54:27,000
And throw out.

2701
02:54:27,000 --> 02:54:28,000
State.

2702
02:54:28,000 --> 02:54:29,000
Like.

2703
02:54:29,000 --> 02:54:30,000
As nine months go by.

2704
02:54:30,000 --> 02:54:31,000
You can start throwing away stuff.

2705
02:54:31,000 --> 02:54:32,000
You know.

2706
02:54:32,000 --> 02:54:33,000
Like.

2707
02:54:33,000 --> 02:54:34,000
So.

2708
02:54:34,000 --> 02:54:35,000
In that case.

2709
02:54:35,000 --> 02:54:36,000
You kind of get all the benefits.

2710
02:54:36,000 --> 02:54:37,000
Of ZK.

2711
02:54:37,000 --> 02:54:38,000
Approves.

2712
02:54:38,000 --> 02:54:39,000
Only more transparent.

2713
02:54:39,000 --> 02:54:40,000
So.

2714
02:54:40,000 --> 02:54:41,000
So.

2715
02:54:41,000 --> 02:54:42,000
It's actually.

2716
02:54:42,000 --> 02:54:43,000
Nice.

2717
02:54:43,000 --> 02:54:44,000
So.

2718
02:54:44,000 --> 02:54:45,000
So what.

2719
02:54:45,000 --> 02:54:46,000
Is.

2720
02:54:46,000 --> 02:54:47,000
Like.

2721
02:54:47,000 --> 02:54:48,000
2000 dollars.

2722
02:54:48,000 --> 02:54:49,000
A promise.

2723
02:54:49,000 --> 02:54:50,000
And like.

2724
02:54:50,000 --> 02:54:51,000
400 hours.

2725
02:54:51,000 --> 02:54:52,000
A month or something.

2726
02:54:52,000 --> 02:54:53,000
So.

2727
02:54:53,000 --> 02:54:54,000
And that was.

2728
02:54:54,000 --> 02:54:55,000
A few years ago.

2729
02:54:55,000 --> 02:54:56,000
So.

2730
02:54:56,000 --> 02:54:56,820
So just like.

2731
02:54:56,820 --> 02:55:23,820
But anyway. Yeah. The U.S.S. Thing. It's the opposite of what he says. It's designed
so that the drama does not travel from L2 to L1. There is no. There is no such thing
as a U.S.F. In this. Of this form. It's a hard fork. Just like every U.S.F. Is
actually a hard fork. Because breaking the longest chain rule is always a hard fork.
The Drivechain is designed to measure the miners opinion. Very accurately.

2732
02:55:23,820 --> 02:55:25,820
So.

2733
02:55:25,820 --> 02:55:27,820
It's designed.

2734
02:55:27,820 --> 02:55:29,820
Three months in advance.

2735
02:55:29,820 --> 02:55:31,820
And.

2736
02:55:31,820 --> 02:55:33,820
It is also designed.

2737
02:55:33,820 --> 02:55:35,820
To.

2738
02:55:35,820 --> 02:55:37,820
Deter.

2739
02:55:37,820 --> 02:55:39,820
It's designed to rely on.

2740
02:55:39,820 --> 02:55:41,820
Miners maximizing their own.

2741
02:55:41,820 --> 02:55:43,820
Net worth.

2742
02:55:43,820 --> 02:55:45,820
Which is the security model.

2743
02:55:45,820 --> 02:55:47,820
So it's not.

2744
02:55:47,820 --> 02:55:49,820
It is not.

2745
02:55:49,820 --> 02:55:51,820
It doesn't affect any of the people.

2746
02:55:51,820 --> 02:55:53,820
Paying attention.

2747
02:55:53,820 --> 02:55:55,820
But I think he's at least.

2748
02:55:55,820 --> 02:55:57,820
Has the criterion right.

2749
02:55:57,820 --> 02:55:59,820
That we should care only if it affects other people on L1.

2750
02:55:59,820 --> 02:56:01,820
But yeah.

2751
02:56:01,820 --> 02:56:03,820
I would like to stress again that this is.

2752
02:56:03,820 --> 02:56:05,820
When he's saying this.

2753
02:56:05,820 --> 02:56:07,820
This is before he has written his tweet.

2754
02:56:07,820 --> 02:56:09,820
Saying that he hasn't actually looked into the idea yet.

2755
02:56:09,820 --> 02:56:11,820
So.

2756
02:56:11,820 --> 02:56:13,820
And you can kind of see that.

2757
02:56:13,820 --> 02:56:15,820
In that he doesn't really understand.

2758
02:56:15,820 --> 02:56:17,820
He thinks it's like about voting.

2759
02:56:17,820 --> 02:56:19,820
But since they all take three months.

2760
02:56:19,820 --> 02:56:21,820
And each of them has to be a dispute.

2761
02:56:21,820 --> 02:56:23,820
The software will do it all automatically.

2762
02:56:23,820 --> 02:56:25,820
If they match.

2763
02:56:25,820 --> 02:56:27,820
So it's only.

2764
02:56:27,820 --> 02:56:29,820
It has to be 200 disputes.

2765
02:56:29,820 --> 02:56:31,820
And then you have three months.

2766
02:56:31,820 --> 02:56:33,820
So you actually have a long time.

2767
02:56:33,820 --> 02:56:35,820
It's certainly interesting.

2768
02:56:35,820 --> 02:56:37,820
To hear you go for that thought process.

2769
02:56:37,820 --> 02:56:39,820
In real time.

2770
02:56:39,820 --> 02:56:41,820
Because I realize that you're explaining.

2771
02:56:41,820 --> 02:56:43,820
A very simple concept.

2772
02:56:43,820 --> 02:56:45,820
But it took you like five minutes.

2773
02:56:45,820 --> 02:56:47,820
But basically.

2774
02:56:47,820 --> 02:56:49,820
I think what they're referring to.

2775
02:56:49,820 --> 02:56:51,820
Is the fact that miners.

2776
02:56:51,820 --> 02:56:53,820
Do they vote?

2777
02:56:53,820 --> 02:56:55,820
Is this a correct term?

2778
02:56:55,820 --> 02:56:57,820
They vote.

2779
02:56:57,820 --> 02:56:59,820
And they need 75% of the hash rate.

2780
02:56:59,820 --> 02:57:01,820
To get deployed.

2781
02:57:01,820 --> 02:57:03,820
Each block.

2782
02:57:03,820 --> 02:57:05,820
Can move the score up.

2783
02:57:05,820 --> 02:57:07,820
So they're really more like confirmations.

2784
02:57:07,820 --> 02:57:09,820
But I think of them as upvotes.

2785
02:57:09,820 --> 02:57:11,820
I mean I just think of it as like a reddit thing.

2786
02:57:11,820 --> 02:57:13,820
When upvotes.

2787
02:57:13,820 --> 02:57:15,820
It sucked.

2788
02:57:15,820 --> 02:57:17,820
In 2015 I was making this.

2789
02:57:17,820 --> 02:57:19,820
Okay.

2790
02:57:19,820 --> 02:57:21,820
But I think 25% is the right.

2791
02:57:21,820 --> 02:57:23,820
Proportion that I'm describing.

2792
02:57:23,820 --> 02:57:25,820
If 25% are against.

2793
02:57:25,820 --> 02:57:27,820
They can veto.

2794
02:57:27,820 --> 02:57:29,820
It's like you downvote.

2795
02:57:29,820 --> 02:57:31,820
So you need to get half.

2796
02:57:31,820 --> 02:57:33,820
You need to get halfway to 26,000.

2797
02:57:33,820 --> 02:57:35,820
You need to get to 13,000.

2798
02:57:35,820 --> 02:57:37,820
So you can upvote and downvote.

2799
02:57:37,820 --> 02:57:39,820
So if you have 25% who are downvoting.

2800
02:57:39,820 --> 02:57:41,820
You need 75% upvoting.

2801
02:57:41,820 --> 02:57:43,820
To just barely make it in time.

2802
02:57:43,820 --> 02:57:45,820
Okay.

2803
02:57:45,820 --> 02:57:47,820
So 25% of the hash rate.

2804
02:57:47,820 --> 02:57:49,820
Can unlock the funds.

2805
02:57:49,820 --> 02:57:51,820
That some miners.

2806
02:57:51,820 --> 02:57:53,820
Don't want to release from a Drivechain.

2807
02:57:53,820 --> 02:57:55,820
Is that correct?

2808
02:57:55,820 --> 02:57:57,820
If they're 25% then they are blocking it.

2809
02:57:57,820 --> 02:57:59,820
They're trying to just stall.

2810
02:57:59,820 --> 02:58:01,820
They're like a filibustering.

2811
02:58:01,820 --> 02:58:03,820
Or vetoing or something.

2812
02:58:03,820 --> 02:58:05,820
So basically if someone.

2813
02:58:05,820 --> 02:58:07,820
Let's say that I want to release.

2814
02:58:07,820 --> 02:58:09,820
The Vlad scammy sidechain.

2815
02:58:09,820 --> 02:58:11,820
I want to do hex on a sidechain.

2816
02:58:11,820 --> 02:58:13,820
And scam the entire planet.

2817
02:58:13,820 --> 02:58:15,820
25% of miners.

2818
02:58:15,820 --> 02:58:17,820
Can decide to not.

2819
02:58:17,820 --> 02:58:19,820
Let that happen.

2820
02:58:19,820 --> 02:58:21,820
To not let the Drivechain get launched.

2821
02:58:21,820 --> 02:58:23,820
Is that correct?

2822
02:58:23,820 --> 02:58:25,820
The activation is slightly different.

2823
02:58:25,820 --> 02:58:27,820
But let's just assume that.

2824
02:58:27,820 --> 02:58:29,820
We'll sweep that detail away for the moment.

2825
02:58:29,820 --> 02:58:31,820
We'll just say there's deposits and withdrawals.

2826
02:58:31,820 --> 02:58:33,820
The coin, the BTC.

2827
02:58:33,820 --> 02:58:35,820
Will travel slowly from sidechain.

2828
02:58:35,820 --> 02:58:37,820
To layer one mainchain.

2829
02:58:37,820 --> 02:58:39,820
But.

2830
02:58:39,820 --> 02:58:41,820
The sidechain.

2831
02:58:41,820 --> 02:58:43,820
Is going to procedurally generate.

2832
02:58:43,820 --> 02:58:45,820
It generates exactly what this hash should be.

2833
02:58:45,820 --> 02:58:47,820
And then the miners job.

2834
02:58:47,820 --> 02:58:49,820
Is to just copy that over.

2835
02:58:49,820 --> 02:58:51,820
Their job is never to just make up some new thing.

2836
02:58:51,820 --> 02:58:53,820
Which is what they would have to do.

2837
02:58:53,820 --> 02:58:55,820
It make up some new hash.

2838
02:58:55,820 --> 02:58:57,820
That pays someone else.

2839
02:58:57,820 --> 02:58:59,820
And you can see why.

2840
02:58:59,820 --> 02:59:01,820
That would be very difficult.

2841
02:59:01,820 --> 02:59:03,820
Because they would have to then decide.

2842
02:59:03,820 --> 02:59:05,820
How they came up with that.

2843
02:59:05,820 --> 02:59:07,820
Instead of doing it all automatically.

2844
02:59:07,820 --> 02:59:09,820
That's why it's always sort of indefensible.

2845
02:59:09,820 --> 02:59:11,820
To do anything other than that.

2846
02:59:11,820 --> 02:59:13,820
Because it's like.

2847
02:59:13,820 --> 02:59:15,820
Where did that come from?

2848
02:59:15,820 --> 02:59:17,820
Okay.

2849
02:59:17,820 --> 02:59:19,820
While you sip some water.

2850
02:59:19,820 --> 02:59:21,820
I got to play another ad.

2851
02:59:21,820 --> 02:59:23,820
Because I forgot about this.

2852
02:59:23,820 --> 02:59:25,820
I'm supposed to play ads.

2853
02:59:25,820 --> 02:59:27,820
How am I going to make a donation.

2854
02:59:27,820 --> 02:59:29,820
If you're listening to this.

2855
02:59:29,820 --> 02:59:31,820
If they drop me or whatever.

2856
02:59:31,820 --> 02:59:33,820
Anyway I'm going to play this ad.

2857
02:59:33,820 --> 02:59:35,820
It's going to be 1426.

2858
02:59:35,820 --> 02:59:37,820
In the video.

2859
02:59:37,820 --> 02:59:39,820
So that's almost half way into it.

2860
03:00:03,820 --> 03:00:05,820
Thanks to NFC.

2861
03:00:05,820 --> 03:00:07,820
You can use the SadoDyme card with your smart phone.

2862
03:00:07,820 --> 03:00:09,820
Creating a new pair of bitcoin keys.

2863
03:00:09,820 --> 03:00:11,820
Takes just two swipes.

2864
03:00:11,820 --> 03:00:13,820
Check your balance in real time.

2865
03:00:13,820 --> 03:00:15,820
Create multiple key pairs.

2866
03:00:15,820 --> 03:00:17,820
Whenever you want.

2867
03:00:17,820 --> 03:00:19,820
You can reveal your bitcoin wallet's private key.

2868
03:00:19,820 --> 03:00:21,820
With just a single click.

2869
03:00:21,820 --> 03:00:23,820
The simple uncluttered interface.

2870
03:00:23,820 --> 03:00:25,820
Let's you quickly see if a key pair has been unsealed.

2871
03:00:25,820 --> 03:00:27,820
Finally the cold storage you've been looking for.

2872
03:00:27,820 --> 03:00:29,820
Available now on SadoDyme.io

2873
03:00:33,820 --> 03:00:35,820
Random prediction Paul.

2874
03:00:35,820 --> 03:00:37,820
I think all of this debate.

2875
03:00:37,820 --> 03:00:39,820
All this discussion about.

2876
03:00:39,820 --> 03:00:41,820
Scaling bitcoin is going to end up.

2877
03:00:41,820 --> 03:00:43,820
Basically increasing the block size.

2878
03:00:43,820 --> 03:00:45,820
I think that's going to be the compromise.

2879
03:00:45,820 --> 03:00:47,820
That everyone makes.

2880
03:00:47,820 --> 03:00:49,820
I'm not sure who's going to be happy with this.

2881
03:00:49,820 --> 03:00:51,820
But it seems like.

2882
03:00:51,820 --> 03:00:53,820
Nobody wants to inflate the 21 million supply.

2883
03:00:53,820 --> 03:00:55,820
It seems like.

2884
03:00:55,820 --> 03:00:57,820
People don't want to wrap their heads around.

2885
03:00:57,820 --> 03:00:59,820
Drivechains.

2886
03:00:59,820 --> 03:01:01,820
They think they're too complicated.

2887
03:01:01,820 --> 03:01:03,820
Just turn one into two.

2888
03:01:03,820 --> 03:01:05,820
Or four or whatever.

2889
03:01:05,820 --> 03:01:07,820
And move on.

2890
03:01:07,820 --> 03:01:09,820
I mean you might be right about that.

2891
03:01:09,820 --> 03:01:11,820
I don't know.

2892
03:01:11,820 --> 03:01:13,820
That would be funny.

2893
03:01:13,820 --> 03:01:15,820
That would be very funny.

2894
03:01:15,820 --> 03:01:17,820
If people pivoted from.

2895
03:01:17,820 --> 03:01:19,820
Like.

2896
03:01:19,820 --> 03:01:21,820
They take the Peter Todd view.

2897
03:01:21,820 --> 03:01:23,820
And they say.

2898
03:01:23,820 --> 03:01:25,820
It's going to be.

2899
03:01:25,820 --> 03:01:27,820
Like something we understand.

2900
03:01:27,820 --> 03:01:29,820
Bigger blocks.

2901
03:01:29,820 --> 03:01:31,820
It's the same thing with speeds.

2902
03:01:31,820 --> 03:01:33,820
And the hard drive costs are there.

2903
03:01:33,820 --> 03:01:35,820
And that would be consistent.

2904
03:01:35,820 --> 03:01:37,820
With the whole like.

2905
03:01:37,820 --> 03:01:39,820
People maintaining their control over.

2906
03:01:39,820 --> 03:01:41,820
There's like a conspiracy theory about.

2907
03:01:41,820 --> 03:01:43,820
It's about who controls the code.

2908
03:01:43,820 --> 03:01:45,820
So I guess.

2909
03:01:45,820 --> 03:01:47,820
That would be kind of consistent with that.

2910
03:01:47,820 --> 03:01:49,820
Conspiracy theory.

2911
03:01:49,820 --> 03:01:51,820
Yep.

2912
03:01:51,820 --> 03:01:53,820
I mean.

2913
03:01:53,820 --> 03:01:55,820
We've got a lot of video.

2914
03:01:55,820 --> 03:01:57,820
We've got to get through the whole video.

2915
03:01:57,820 --> 03:01:59,820
The next on the name.

2916
03:01:59,820 --> 03:02:01,820
I've got John Carvalho.

2917
03:02:01,820 --> 03:02:03,820
More importantly.

2918
03:02:03,820 --> 03:02:05,820
Look at it and say.

2919
03:02:05,820 --> 03:02:07,820
You can even do studies.

2920
03:02:07,820 --> 03:02:09,820
And say how much it will cost.

2921
03:02:09,820 --> 03:02:11,820
The average person per year.

2922
03:02:11,820 --> 03:02:13,820
You can actually assess it.

2923
03:02:13,820 --> 03:02:15,820
You can't do that with Drivechains.

2924
03:02:15,820 --> 03:02:17,820
And more importantly.

2925
03:02:17,820 --> 03:02:19,820
We need to like have a better understanding.

2926
03:02:19,820 --> 03:02:21,820
Of what we mean when we say scaling.

2927
03:02:21,820 --> 03:02:23,820
Like there's scaling.

2928
03:02:23,820 --> 03:02:25,820
Like just making number go up.

2929
03:02:25,820 --> 03:02:27,820
You know what I mean?

2930
03:02:27,820 --> 03:02:29,820
Block chains don't scale in themselves.

2931
03:02:29,820 --> 03:02:31,820
The end user needs to scale in the end.

2932
03:02:31,820 --> 03:02:33,820
In order to do network scaling.

2933
03:02:33,820 --> 03:02:35,820
You need to increase the capacity of the network.

2934
03:02:35,820 --> 03:02:37,820
So it's not actually a form of scaling.

2935
03:02:37,820 --> 03:02:39,820
If you aren't increasing the capacity for bitcoin.

2936
03:02:39,820 --> 03:02:41,820
Lightning network.

2937
03:02:41,820 --> 03:02:43,820
Kind of is like a nice little hack.

2938
03:02:43,820 --> 03:02:45,820
Because it's like an alternative network.

2939
03:02:45,820 --> 03:02:47,820
But it still uses bitcoin transactions.

2940
03:02:47,820 --> 03:02:49,820
So there is a little bit of a compromise.

2941
03:02:49,820 --> 03:02:51,820
And say that.

2942
03:02:51,820 --> 03:02:53,820
It affects the incentive structure of miners.

2943
03:02:53,820 --> 03:02:55,820
For example.

2944
03:02:55,820 --> 03:02:57,820
But it's still bitcoin transactions.

2945
03:02:57,820 --> 03:02:59,820
And so it still scales transactions.

2946
03:02:59,820 --> 03:03:01,820
Let me try to address.

2947
03:03:01,820 --> 03:03:03,820
Serge's point about maximalism and tension.

2948
03:03:03,820 --> 03:03:05,820
I think it's a very popular opinion.

2949
03:03:05,820 --> 03:03:07,820
That maximalists are asking.

2950
03:03:07,820 --> 03:03:09,820
To put every use cases on bitcoin.

2951
03:03:09,820 --> 03:03:11,820
And so the tensions.

2952
03:03:11,820 --> 03:03:13,820
The tensions seems to emerge.

2953
03:03:13,820 --> 03:03:15,820
Because wait.

2954
03:03:15,820 --> 03:03:17,820
You don't like shit coins.

2955
03:03:17,820 --> 03:03:19,820
But when we try to do shit coins on bitcoin.

2956
03:03:19,820 --> 03:03:21,820
You get defensive.

2957
03:03:21,820 --> 03:03:23,820
You have to pick one.

2958
03:03:23,820 --> 03:03:25,820
You cannot say.

2959
03:03:25,820 --> 03:03:27,820
Everything on bitcoin.

2960
03:03:27,820 --> 03:03:29,820
But not this on bitcoin.

2961
03:03:29,820 --> 03:03:31,820
But I think one fundamental misunderstanding.

2962
03:03:31,820 --> 03:03:33,820
Is that the original maximalist position.

2963
03:03:33,820 --> 03:03:35,820
Was not really.

2964
03:03:35,820 --> 03:03:37,820
This should all go on bitcoin.

2965
03:03:37,820 --> 03:03:39,820
Or everything should go on bitcoin.

2966
03:03:39,820 --> 03:03:41,820
It was originally.

2967
03:03:41,820 --> 03:03:43,820
Either this use case that you are proposing.

2968
03:03:43,820 --> 03:03:45,820
Doesn't even make sense.

2969
03:03:45,820 --> 03:03:47,820
So it's not necessary that I want NFT on bitcoin.

2970
03:03:47,820 --> 03:03:49,820
Maybe I just think they are stupid.

2971
03:03:49,820 --> 03:03:51,820
Or this thing is great.

2972
03:03:51,820 --> 03:03:53,820
It's perfect.

2973
03:03:53,820 --> 03:03:55,820
It's beautiful.

2974
03:03:55,820 --> 03:03:57,820
But it should just run on a database.

2975
03:03:57,820 --> 03:03:59,820
So I remember one of the things I used to shield in 2017.

2976
03:03:59,820 --> 03:04:01,820
Was a great website.

2977
03:04:01,820 --> 03:04:03,820
It's still around.

2978
03:04:03,820 --> 03:04:05,820
It's myblockchain.xyz.

2979
03:04:05,820 --> 03:04:07,820
And it's a website where you can download software.

2980
03:04:07,820 --> 03:04:09,820
Your software is a blockchain.

2981
03:04:09,820 --> 03:04:11,820
It's actually a fork of MySQL.

2982
03:04:11,820 --> 03:04:13,820
But the tables are renamed into blocks.

2983
03:04:13,820 --> 03:04:15,820
And records are renamed into transactions.

2984
03:04:15,820 --> 03:04:17,820
And now you can run a blockchain.

2985
03:04:17,820 --> 03:04:19,820
So sometimes when people say.

2986
03:04:19,820 --> 03:04:21,820
I want to do this.

2987
03:04:21,820 --> 03:04:23,820
Which doesn't require this decentralization.

2988
03:04:23,820 --> 03:04:25,820
Or security.

2989
03:04:25,820 --> 03:04:27,820
My answer is usually not.

2990
03:04:27,820 --> 03:04:29,820
Do it on bitcoin.

2991
03:04:29,820 --> 03:04:31,820
But it's usually.

2992
03:04:31,820 --> 03:04:33,820
That's okay.

2993
03:04:33,820 --> 03:04:35,820
Let's just open a spreadsheet.

2994
03:04:35,820 --> 03:04:37,820
Unless you have a specific reason not to do that.

2995
03:04:37,820 --> 03:04:39,820
For example.

2996
03:04:39,820 --> 03:04:41,820
Do you want to do something legal.

2997
03:04:41,820 --> 03:04:43,820
Or partially or likely legal.

2998
03:04:43,820 --> 03:04:45,820
As somebody would say.

2999
03:04:45,820 --> 03:04:47,820
I don't know.

3000
03:04:47,820 --> 03:04:49,820
Frogs.

3001
03:04:49,820 --> 03:04:51,820
Autographers of artists.

3002
03:04:51,820 --> 03:04:53,820
Just open up a spreadsheet.

3003
03:04:53,820 --> 03:04:55,820
We don't want to change bitcoin.

3004
03:04:55,820 --> 03:04:57,820
Because we think your use case.

3005
03:04:57,820 --> 03:04:59,820
Not yours specifically.

3006
03:04:59,820 --> 03:05:01,820
Is not even worth the effort.

3007
03:05:01,820 --> 03:05:03,820
To decentralize it.

3008
03:05:03,820 --> 03:05:05,820
Because it's centralized anyway.

3009
03:05:05,820 --> 03:05:07,820
Like ICO projects.

3010
03:05:07,820 --> 03:05:09,820
Where there is a marketing team.

3011
03:05:09,820 --> 03:05:11,820
A website with faces.

3012
03:05:11,820 --> 03:05:13,820
Just open MySQL.

3013
03:05:13,820 --> 03:05:15,820
And use client side validation techniques.

3014
03:05:15,820 --> 03:05:17,820
Which scale indefinitely.

3015
03:05:17,820 --> 03:05:19,820
And let you still have your database.

3016
03:05:19,820 --> 03:05:21,820
So basically.

3017
03:05:21,820 --> 03:05:23,820
It's not like.

3018
03:05:23,820 --> 03:05:25,820
Go.

3019
03:05:25,820 --> 03:05:27,820
Actually let's let Sergey.

3020
03:05:27,820 --> 03:05:29,820
Let's see what Sergey has to say.

3021
03:05:29,820 --> 03:05:31,820
That's the case.

3022
03:05:31,820 --> 03:05:33,820
For every other cryptocurrency.

3023
03:05:33,820 --> 03:05:35,820
There are things that are.

3024
03:05:35,820 --> 03:05:37,820
Reasonably decentralized.

3025
03:05:37,820 --> 03:05:39,820
Reasonably secure.

3026
03:05:39,820 --> 03:05:41,820
Things like litecoin for example.

3027
03:05:41,820 --> 03:05:43,820
Where live and thrive.

3028
03:05:43,820 --> 03:05:45,820
Works similarly like bitcoin.

3029
03:05:45,820 --> 03:05:47,820
But makes some different trade-offs.

3030
03:05:47,820 --> 03:05:49,820
And it seems that.

3031
03:05:49,820 --> 03:05:51,820
That suits certain people.

3032
03:05:51,820 --> 03:05:53,820
And it's not declining or dying off.

3033
03:05:53,820 --> 03:05:55,820
Or anything.

3034
03:05:55,820 --> 03:05:57,820
It's just doing it's own thing.

3035
03:05:57,820 --> 03:05:59,820
And there are projects.

3036
03:05:59,820 --> 03:06:01,820
That matter where.

3037
03:06:01,820 --> 03:06:03,820
You don't need a blockchain for that.

3038
03:06:03,820 --> 03:06:05,820
The answer does not really necessarily apply.

3039
03:06:05,820 --> 03:06:07,820
Even litecoin.

3040
03:06:07,820 --> 03:06:09,820
Assume that you have bitcoin.

3041
03:06:09,820 --> 03:06:11,820
As a store of value.

3042
03:06:11,820 --> 03:06:13,820
Because.

3043
03:06:13,820 --> 03:06:15,820
Yeah litecoin wasn't great.

3044
03:06:15,820 --> 03:06:17,820
I think the smarter thing would be.

3045
03:06:17,820 --> 03:06:19,820
To say Zcash for privacy.

3046
03:06:19,820 --> 03:06:21,820
Or you just say the scalability thing.

3047
03:06:21,820 --> 03:06:23,820
Which links all the.

3048
03:06:23,820 --> 03:06:25,820
The long.

3049
03:06:25,820 --> 03:06:27,820
All the wrongness of all the different answers.

3050
03:06:27,820 --> 03:06:29,820
So like John Carvalho was saying.

3051
03:06:29,820 --> 03:06:31,820
Well we don't want.

3052
03:06:31,820 --> 03:06:33,820
He said the USF thing.

3053
03:06:33,820 --> 03:06:35,820
Because he thinks that it's USF.

3054
03:06:35,820 --> 03:06:37,820
But again as I've already explained.

3055
03:06:37,820 --> 03:06:39,820
He's saying that.

3056
03:06:39,820 --> 03:06:41,820
Lightning can scale.

3057
03:06:41,820 --> 03:06:43,820
Bitcoin.

3058
03:06:43,820 --> 03:06:45,820
Because it uses bitcoin transactions.

3059
03:06:45,820 --> 03:06:47,820
The reality though.

3060
03:06:47,820 --> 03:06:49,820
Is that lightning is probably not going to scale anything.

3061
03:06:49,820 --> 03:06:51,820
Because it's probably just going to be abandoned.

3062
03:06:51,820 --> 03:06:53,820
Probably.

3063
03:06:53,820 --> 03:06:55,820
I don't know.

3064
03:06:55,820 --> 03:06:57,820
In five years we'll see.

3065
03:06:57,820 --> 03:06:59,820
I'm not sure.

3066
03:06:59,820 --> 03:07:01,820
But at this rate I don't think it will.

3067
03:07:01,820 --> 03:07:03,820
The technical elite jumped ship last year.

3068
03:07:03,820 --> 03:07:05,820
Partially on John's podcast.

3069
03:07:05,820 --> 03:07:07,820
He was talking about the lightning limitations.

3070
03:07:07,820 --> 03:07:09,820
Synonym spaces.

3071
03:07:09,820 --> 03:07:11,820
And just play it if you want.

3072
03:07:11,820 --> 03:07:13,820
If you think that lightning has a bright future.

3073
03:07:13,820 --> 03:07:15,820
Just press play.

3074
03:07:15,820 --> 03:07:17,820
And then I think we had.

3075
03:07:17,820 --> 03:07:19,820
I think Ark was saying.

3076
03:07:19,820 --> 03:07:21,820
About the fundamental limitations.

3077
03:07:21,820 --> 03:07:23,820
He mentioned it.

3078
03:07:23,820 --> 03:07:25,820
I think.

3079
03:07:25,820 --> 03:07:27,820
Yeah.

3080
03:07:27,820 --> 03:07:29,820
And then we have this idea.

3081
03:07:29,820 --> 03:07:31,820
About Giacomo saying.

3082
03:07:31,820 --> 03:07:33,820
That he is infallible.

3083
03:07:33,820 --> 03:07:35,820
When it comes to determining.

3084
03:07:35,820 --> 03:07:37,820
If the end user's use case.

3085
03:07:37,820 --> 03:07:39,820
Is legit or not.

3086
03:07:39,820 --> 03:07:41,820
And so there's no toleration.

3087
03:07:41,820 --> 03:07:43,820
Of any kind of creativity.

3088
03:07:43,820 --> 03:07:45,820
Or novelty.

3089
03:07:45,820 --> 03:07:47,820
But even.

3090
03:07:47,820 --> 03:07:49,820
If there was no novelty.

3091
03:07:49,820 --> 03:07:51,820
Still the scaling idea.

3092
03:07:51,820 --> 03:07:53,820
Is key.

3093
03:07:53,820 --> 03:07:55,820
It is.

3094
03:07:55,820 --> 03:07:57,820
When John Carvalho says.

3095
03:07:57,820 --> 03:07:59,820
It doesn't scale.

3096
03:07:59,820 --> 03:08:01,820
Bitcoin.

3097
03:08:01,820 --> 03:08:03,820
What I mean by that.

3098
03:08:03,820 --> 03:08:05,820
Is that.

3099
03:08:05,820 --> 03:08:07,820
Every single person.

3100
03:08:07,820 --> 03:08:09,820
On the planet earth.

3101
03:08:09,820 --> 03:08:11,820
A week after activating BIP300.

3102
03:08:11,820 --> 03:08:13,820
Could all obtain.

3103
03:08:13,820 --> 03:08:15,820
Bitcoin in a wallet.

3104
03:08:15,820 --> 03:08:17,820
That has.

3105
03:08:17,820 --> 03:08:19,820
The money is controlled by keys.

3106
03:08:19,820 --> 03:08:21,820
And where they sign transactions.

3107
03:08:21,820 --> 03:08:23,820
And where they could.

3108
03:08:23,820 --> 03:08:25,820
Each of them could settle to L1.

3109
03:08:25,820 --> 03:08:27,820
They can't all settle at once.

3110
03:08:27,820 --> 03:08:29,820
But each of them could.

3111
03:08:29,820 --> 03:08:31,820
If everyone else doesn't want to.

3112
03:08:31,820 --> 03:08:33,820
At that particular moment.

3113
03:08:33,820 --> 03:08:35,820
Or they could join forces.

3114
03:08:35,820 --> 03:08:37,820
With someone who is.

3115
03:08:37,820 --> 03:08:39,820
And move interoperably among these.

3116
03:08:39,820 --> 03:08:41,820
More people could use.

3117
03:08:41,820 --> 03:08:43,820
Bitcoin in that way.

3118
03:08:43,820 --> 03:08:45,820
Than could use the lightning network.

3119
03:08:45,820 --> 03:08:47,820
Because lightning network.

3120
03:08:47,820 --> 03:08:49,820
Does nothing to stop onboarding.

3121
03:08:49,820 --> 03:08:51,820
So Giacomo misses.

3122
03:08:51,820 --> 03:08:53,820
The big use cases.

3123
03:08:53,820 --> 03:08:55,820
Of just scaling Bitcoin.

3124
03:08:55,820 --> 03:08:57,820
And Zcash privacy.

3125
03:08:57,820 --> 03:08:59,820
There's a whole argument to be made.

3126
03:08:59,820 --> 03:09:01,820
About what will human creativity invent.

3127
03:09:01,820 --> 03:09:03,820
When it's free of these gatekeepers.

3128
03:09:03,820 --> 03:09:05,820
But I think that was.

3129
03:09:05,820 --> 03:09:07,820
Disappointing.

3130
03:09:07,820 --> 03:09:09,820
Him saying that.

3131
03:09:09,820 --> 03:09:11,820
That's what I used to believe.

3132
03:09:11,820 --> 03:09:13,820
Back in 2015, 2016.

3133
03:09:13,820 --> 03:09:15,820
That the use case.

3134
03:09:15,820 --> 03:09:17,820
No one will ever invent.

3135
03:09:17,820 --> 03:09:19,820
A good use case.

3136
03:09:19,820 --> 03:09:21,820
And that it will be.

3137
03:09:21,820 --> 03:09:23,820
It will all just be databases.

3138
03:09:23,820 --> 03:09:25,820
Or just people who are.

3139
03:09:25,820 --> 03:09:27,820
Hopelessly deluded.

3140
03:09:27,820 --> 03:09:29,820
But I don't believe.

3141
03:09:29,820 --> 03:09:31,820
That at all anymore.

3142
03:09:31,820 --> 03:09:33,820
I think that.

3143
03:09:33,820 --> 03:09:35,820
In fact the fact that we.

3144
03:09:35,820 --> 03:09:37,820
Bet everything on lightning.

3145
03:09:37,820 --> 03:09:39,820
Proves how foolish it was.

3146
03:09:39,820 --> 03:09:41,820
For us to presume.

3147
03:09:41,820 --> 03:09:43,820
That we know anything.

3148
03:09:43,820 --> 03:09:45,820
About what the end user will enjoy.

3149
03:09:45,820 --> 03:09:47,820
So I think that.

3150
03:09:47,820 --> 03:09:49,820
Also he.

3151
03:09:49,820 --> 03:09:51,820
Is in direct conflict with.

3152
03:09:51,820 --> 03:09:53,820
For example Bruce Fenton.

3153
03:09:53,820 --> 03:09:55,820
I mentioned the ICOs.

3154
03:09:55,820 --> 03:09:57,820
And like the marketing team.

3155
03:09:57,820 --> 03:09:59,820
Bruce Fenton.

3156
03:09:59,820 --> 03:10:01,820
Who has enormous amount of experience.

3157
03:10:01,820 --> 03:10:03,820
In this area.

3158
03:10:03,820 --> 03:10:05,820
He says that even.

3159
03:10:05,820 --> 03:10:07,820
That there would be of enormous value.

3160
03:10:07,820 --> 03:10:09,820
Even if the company.

3161
03:10:09,820 --> 03:10:11,820
Is itself centralized.

3162
03:10:11,820 --> 03:10:13,820
The process for issuing.

3163
03:10:13,820 --> 03:10:15,820
The corporation's shares.

3164
03:10:15,820 --> 03:10:17,820
And transferring them.

3165
03:10:17,820 --> 03:10:19,820
He says is terrible.

3166
03:10:19,820 --> 03:10:21,820
And I agree with him.

3167
03:10:21,820 --> 03:10:23,820
It would be much improved.

3168
03:10:23,820 --> 03:10:25,820
If there was just a way to transfer.

3169
03:10:25,820 --> 03:10:27,820
These bearer instruments around.

3170
03:10:27,820 --> 03:10:29,820
They would still be.

3171
03:10:29,820 --> 03:10:31,820
The redemption of them would still be centralized.

3172
03:10:31,820 --> 03:10:33,820
But that's again.

3173
03:10:33,820 --> 03:10:35,820
Something like tether is an example of that.

3174
03:10:35,820 --> 03:10:37,820
Where tether is centralized to redemption.

3175
03:10:37,820 --> 03:10:39,820
But it really doesn't seem to matter.

3176
03:10:39,820 --> 03:10:41,820
For most people.

3177
03:10:41,820 --> 03:10:43,820
Most people don't need to redeem.

3178
03:10:43,820 --> 03:10:45,820
They still get an enormous amount of value.

3179
03:10:45,820 --> 03:10:47,820
From the service.

3180
03:10:47,820 --> 03:10:49,820
People love USDT.

3181
03:10:49,820 --> 03:10:51,820
They really like it a lot.

3182
03:10:51,820 --> 03:10:53,820
So I don't know.

3183
03:10:53,820 --> 03:10:55,820
Like.

3184
03:10:55,820 --> 03:10:57,820
But the whole.

3185
03:10:57,820 --> 03:10:59,820
The premise is that.

3186
03:10:59,820 --> 03:11:01,820
Giacomo knows better than the inventor.

3187
03:11:01,820 --> 03:11:03,820
Of something.

3188
03:11:03,820 --> 03:11:05,820
And it will always be true.

3189
03:11:05,820 --> 03:11:07,820
What was true.

3190
03:11:07,820 --> 03:11:09,820
What people thought was true.

3191
03:11:09,820 --> 03:11:11,820
Just because IBM.

3192
03:11:11,820 --> 03:11:13,820
Tried to do blockchain.

3193
03:11:13,820 --> 03:11:15,820
Whatever healthcare on the blockchain.

3194
03:11:15,820 --> 03:11:17,820
It was a joke in 2016.

3195
03:11:17,820 --> 03:11:19,820
And nothing.

3196
03:11:19,820 --> 03:11:21,820
Nothing useful will ever be invented.

3197
03:11:21,820 --> 03:11:23,820
And there won't be any need to tweak.

3198
03:11:23,820 --> 03:11:25,820
Or change anything.

3199
03:11:25,820 --> 03:11:27,820
In response to new technology.

3200
03:11:27,820 --> 03:11:29,820
New opportunities.

3201
03:11:29,820 --> 03:11:31,820
New innovation.

3202
03:11:31,820 --> 03:11:33,820
New problems.

3203
03:11:33,820 --> 03:11:35,820
New culture.

3204
03:11:35,820 --> 03:11:37,820
New use case.

3205
03:11:37,820 --> 03:11:39,820
So he's saying.

3206
03:11:39,820 --> 03:11:41,820
We're going to bet everything.

3207
03:11:41,820 --> 03:11:43,820
That no one will invent something cool.

3208
03:11:43,820 --> 03:11:45,820
Ever again.

3209
03:11:45,820 --> 03:11:47,820
I don't know Vlad.

3210
03:11:47,820 --> 03:11:49,820
What do you think?

3211
03:11:49,820 --> 03:11:51,820
I don't think it matters what I think.

3212
03:11:51,820 --> 03:11:53,820
This is all about you watching this.

3213
03:11:53,820 --> 03:11:55,820
And reacting.

3214
03:11:55,820 --> 03:11:57,820
All right.

3215
03:11:57,820 --> 03:11:59,820
Let's keep going.

3216
03:11:59,820 --> 03:12:01,820
So having Litecoin as a store of value.

3217
03:12:01,820 --> 03:12:03,820
I mean everybody is free.

3218
03:12:03,820 --> 03:12:05,820
But come on.

3219
03:12:05,820 --> 03:12:07,820
So you have Bitcoin as a store of value.

3220
03:12:07,820 --> 03:12:09,820
Now you want to transact very free.

3221
03:12:09,820 --> 03:12:11,820
And very cheap.

3222
03:12:11,820 --> 03:12:13,820
So what you need to do.

3223
03:12:13,820 --> 03:12:15,820
Is to change it to Litecoin.

3224
03:12:15,820 --> 03:12:17,820
To send it to your friend.

3225
03:12:17,820 --> 03:12:19,820
Or to the merchant.

3226
03:12:19,820 --> 03:12:21,820
That will have to send it back to an exchange.

3227
03:12:21,820 --> 03:12:23,820
To send it on chain.

3228
03:12:23,820 --> 03:12:25,820
To Bitcoin.

3229
03:12:25,820 --> 03:12:27,820
So either you go off chain.

3230
03:12:27,820 --> 03:12:29,820
Or maybe use cash.

3231
03:12:29,820 --> 03:12:31,820
Something that doesn't even create.

3232
03:12:31,820 --> 03:12:33,820
An old new blockchain.

3233
03:12:33,820 --> 03:12:35,820
With a new form of money.

3234
03:12:35,820 --> 03:12:37,820
With a slippage in price.

3235
03:12:37,820 --> 03:12:39,820
Between in and out.

3236
03:12:39,820 --> 03:12:41,820
It's like I want to do a swap.

3237
03:12:41,820 --> 03:12:43,820
Which is not very private.

3238
03:12:43,820 --> 03:12:45,820
To some kind of market.

3239
03:12:45,820 --> 03:12:47,820
That could be even decentralized.

3240
03:12:47,820 --> 03:12:49,820
But the order book will be public.

3241
03:12:49,820 --> 03:12:51,820
Which will be a bottleneck in liquidity.

3242
03:12:51,820 --> 03:12:53,820
So also in a non-limit set.

3243
03:12:53,820 --> 03:12:55,820
And then my merchant eventually.

3244
03:12:55,820 --> 03:12:57,820
If it doesn't want to lose money.

3245
03:12:57,820 --> 03:12:59,820
Will convert back to Bitcoin.

3246
03:12:59,820 --> 03:13:01,820
So maybe there is value in batching things.

3247
03:13:01,820 --> 03:13:03,820
But most of these narratives.

3248
03:13:03,820 --> 03:13:05,820
They are not fighted off.

3249
03:13:05,820 --> 03:13:07,820
Like you should do that on Bitcoin.

3250
03:13:07,820 --> 03:13:09,820
Most of the time it's.

3251
03:13:09,820 --> 03:13:11,820
Sure in your opinion.

3252
03:13:11,820 --> 03:13:13,820
But it's a big assumption.

3253
03:13:13,820 --> 03:13:15,820
What you describe.

3254
03:13:15,820 --> 03:13:17,820
There's plenty of people.

3255
03:13:17,820 --> 03:13:19,820
Who live their life within the monero ecosystem.

3256
03:13:19,820 --> 03:13:21,820
Or in the Litecoin ecosystem.

3257
03:13:21,820 --> 03:13:23,820
And don't.

3258
03:13:23,820 --> 03:13:25,820
And there are services that serve them.

3259
03:13:25,820 --> 03:13:27,820
So there are definitely.

3260
03:13:27,820 --> 03:13:29,820
Indisputably economies.

3261
03:13:29,820 --> 03:13:31,820
They should be free.

3262
03:13:31,820 --> 03:13:33,820
There are people that on TikTok.

3263
03:13:33,820 --> 03:13:35,820
They pay girls to pretend to be.

3264
03:13:35,820 --> 03:13:37,820
NPC video game characters.

3265
03:13:37,820 --> 03:13:39,820
They should be free to do that.

3266
03:13:39,820 --> 03:13:41,820
I don't want necessarily.

3267
03:13:41,820 --> 03:13:43,820
My system to enable them to do that.

3268
03:13:43,820 --> 03:13:45,820
And I can't criticize.

3269
03:13:45,820 --> 03:13:47,820
I can say this stupid.

3270
03:13:47,820 --> 03:13:49,820
But I will never initiate violence against them.

3271
03:13:49,820 --> 03:13:51,820
So people should coin and learn.

3272
03:13:51,820 --> 03:13:53,820
Anyway monero is an interesting thing.

3273
03:13:53,820 --> 03:13:55,820
Where it does have a very.

3274
03:13:55,820 --> 03:13:57,820
Interesting advantage over Bitcoin.

3275
03:13:57,820 --> 03:13:59,820
For things that are maybe less than legal.

3276
03:13:59,820 --> 03:14:01,820
Which is it's very difficult to.

3277
03:14:01,820 --> 03:14:03,820
Use monero in such a way.

3278
03:14:03,820 --> 03:14:05,820
That your privacy is terrible.

3279
03:14:05,820 --> 03:14:07,820
Monero is much higher than Bitcoin.

3280
03:14:07,820 --> 03:14:09,820
Good reports.

3281
03:14:09,820 --> 03:14:11,820
Yeah just due to how the software happens to work.

3282
03:14:11,820 --> 03:14:13,820
Now obviously you could go design a new.

3283
03:14:13,820 --> 03:14:15,820
Bitcoin payment standard.

3284
03:14:15,820 --> 03:14:17,820
Where that was true too.

3285
03:14:17,820 --> 03:14:19,820
And you could imagine like you know.

3286
03:14:19,820 --> 03:14:21,820
Lightning triple secure.

3287
03:14:21,820 --> 03:14:23,820
And that's the only thing like.

3288
03:14:23,820 --> 03:14:25,820
Dark markets would support.

3289
03:14:25,820 --> 03:14:27,820
But that's just not how the.

3290
03:14:27,820 --> 03:14:29,820
Ecosystems happen.

3291
03:14:29,820 --> 03:14:31,820
So that's monero's niche.

3292
03:14:31,820 --> 03:14:33,820
I think censorship resistance.

3293
03:14:33,820 --> 03:14:35,820
We want the developers.

3294
03:14:35,820 --> 03:14:37,820
We want the users.

3295
03:14:37,820 --> 03:14:39,820
We want Bitcoin to be the backbone.

3296
03:14:39,820 --> 03:14:41,820
Of the world's economy in the future.

3297
03:14:41,820 --> 03:14:43,820
And just because we here.

3298
03:14:43,820 --> 03:14:45,820
Use Bitcoin in a certain way.

3299
03:14:45,820 --> 03:14:47,820
It doesn't mean that the rest of the world.

3300
03:14:47,820 --> 03:14:49,820
And the future users of Bitcoin.

3301
03:14:49,820 --> 03:14:51,820
Won't want to use it in a different way.

3302
03:14:51,820 --> 03:14:53,820
Like how do we make that possible.

3303
03:14:53,820 --> 03:14:55,820
Like what proposals exist out there.

3304
03:14:55,820 --> 03:14:57,820
To make that possible.

3305
03:14:57,820 --> 03:14:59,820
Without just suggesting.

3306
03:14:59,820 --> 03:15:01,820
That they use a custodial service.

3307
03:15:01,820 --> 03:15:03,820
I suppose the issue is really.

3308
03:15:03,820 --> 03:15:05,820
Mining decentralization.

3309
03:15:05,820 --> 03:15:07,820
Like they're offloading the idea.

3310
03:15:07,820 --> 03:15:09,820
Of running all these separate federations.

3311
03:15:09,820 --> 03:15:11,820
Which can be very troublesome.

3312
03:15:11,820 --> 03:15:13,820
Federations are hard to run.

3313
03:15:13,820 --> 03:15:15,820
Just ask anyone who runs a federation.

3314
03:15:15,820 --> 03:15:17,820
For any popular Bitcoin sidechain.

3315
03:15:17,820 --> 03:15:19,820
You would offload that onto miners.

3316
03:15:19,820 --> 03:15:21,820
But I'm not saying it's a particularly.

3317
03:15:21,820 --> 03:15:23,820
Good idea to do that.

3318
03:15:23,820 --> 03:15:25,820
Because you're empowering miners.

3319
03:15:25,820 --> 03:15:27,820
But I'm just saying that.

3320
03:15:27,820 --> 03:15:29,820
I can understand why it's a proposal.

3321
03:15:29,820 --> 03:15:31,820
But the thing with Drivechains.

3322
03:15:31,820 --> 03:15:33,820
Mining centralization.

3323
03:15:33,820 --> 03:15:35,820
Is that it's not so much like.

3324
03:15:35,820 --> 03:15:37,820
Oh Drivechains would be okay.

3325
03:15:37,820 --> 03:15:39,820
If we could get miners.

3326
03:15:39,820 --> 03:15:41,820
Okay I mean I just wanted to.

3327
03:15:41,820 --> 03:15:43,820
Before whatever this is happens.

3328
03:15:43,820 --> 03:15:45,820
All of that was pretty good.

3329
03:15:45,820 --> 03:15:47,820
Wasn't it?

3330
03:15:47,820 --> 03:15:49,820
A lot of people.

3331
03:15:49,820 --> 03:15:51,820
The Monero example is much better.

3332
03:15:51,820 --> 03:15:53,820
Peter Todd admitted that it was a niche.

3333
03:15:53,820 --> 03:15:55,820
No one is even giving.

3334
03:15:55,820 --> 03:15:57,820
John the microphone.

3335
03:15:57,820 --> 03:15:59,820
So he's not saying anything.

3336
03:15:59,820 --> 03:16:01,820
Which is great.

3337
03:16:01,820 --> 03:16:03,820
And yeah.

3338
03:16:03,820 --> 03:16:05,820
Privacy is important to people.

3339
03:16:05,820 --> 03:16:07,820
Monero undisputably is real.

3340
03:16:07,820 --> 03:16:09,820
And there are services for that.

3341
03:16:09,820 --> 03:16:11,820
And yeah.

3342
03:16:11,820 --> 03:16:13,820
The idea is you shouldn't compare this.

3343
03:16:13,820 --> 03:16:15,820
To L1 block space.

3344
03:16:15,820 --> 03:16:17,820
You should say what can we do.

3345
03:16:17,820 --> 03:16:19,820
What can we give everyone in the world.

3346
03:16:19,820 --> 03:16:21,820
That they would actually like.

3347
03:16:21,820 --> 03:16:23,820
You know.

3348
03:16:23,820 --> 03:16:25,820
That would actually work for them.

3349
03:16:25,820 --> 03:16:27,820
People.

3350
03:16:27,820 --> 03:16:29,820
People do seem to be getting it.

3351
03:16:29,820 --> 03:16:31,820
I think the idea.

3352
03:16:31,820 --> 03:16:33,820
You were there.

3353
03:16:33,820 --> 03:16:35,820
Did you see this live?

3354
03:16:35,820 --> 03:16:37,820
No unfortunately.

3355
03:16:37,820 --> 03:16:39,820
I was outside.

3356
03:16:39,820 --> 03:16:41,820
I was promoting my magazine.

3357
03:16:41,820 --> 03:16:43,820
But I watched this on live stream.

3358
03:16:43,820 --> 03:16:45,820
Okay can you tell me like.

3359
03:16:45,820 --> 03:16:47,820
Did as many people attend this year.

3360
03:16:47,820 --> 03:16:49,820
As last year?

3361
03:16:49,820 --> 03:16:51,820
No it was a smaller event.

3362
03:16:51,820 --> 03:16:53,820
And it was a different.

3363
03:16:53,820 --> 03:16:55,820
Was it a different venue?

3364
03:16:55,820 --> 03:16:57,820
No it was the same venue.

3365
03:16:57,820 --> 03:16:59,820
And it felt more like a family reunion.

3366
03:16:59,820 --> 03:17:01,820
As opposed to a conference.

3367
03:17:01,820 --> 03:17:03,820
Yeah you know.

3368
03:17:03,820 --> 03:17:05,820
The Miami conference was also smaller.

3369
03:17:05,820 --> 03:17:07,820
So that I think the whole space is shrinking.

3370
03:17:07,820 --> 03:17:09,820
Because it was the post COVID high.

3371
03:17:09,820 --> 03:17:11,820
Of just the euphoria.

3372
03:17:11,820 --> 03:17:13,820
Of like breaking free of COVID.

3373
03:17:13,820 --> 03:17:15,820
No it's more than that.

3374
03:17:15,820 --> 03:17:17,820
It was the first year.

3375
03:17:17,820 --> 03:17:19,820
During the bull market.

3376
03:17:19,820 --> 03:17:21,820
And then the year after the bull market.

3377
03:17:21,820 --> 03:17:23,820
And now it's two years.

3378
03:17:23,820 --> 03:17:25,820
Into the bear market.

3379
03:17:25,820 --> 03:17:27,820
And people are tired.

3380
03:17:27,820 --> 03:17:29,820
And they just want the number to go up.

3381
03:17:29,820 --> 03:17:31,820
For some reason.

3382
03:17:31,820 --> 03:17:33,820
And they don't want to spend too much.

3383
03:17:33,820 --> 03:17:35,820
I did notice that.

3384
03:17:35,820 --> 03:17:37,820
The market dynamics are different right now.

3385
03:17:37,820 --> 03:17:39,820
And everyone complains.

3386
03:17:39,820 --> 03:17:41,820
That nobody is spending their bitcoin.

3387
03:17:41,820 --> 03:17:43,820
And all businesses are downsizing.

3388
03:17:43,820 --> 03:17:45,820
As far as I know.

3389
03:17:45,820 --> 03:17:47,820
Bitcoin magazine fired.

3390
03:17:47,820 --> 03:17:49,820
Half of their staff.

3391
03:17:49,820 --> 03:17:51,820
Last month.

3392
03:17:51,820 --> 03:17:53,820
Yeah Coindesk also.

3393
03:17:53,820 --> 03:17:55,820
It's like this.

3394
03:17:55,820 --> 03:17:57,820
I also noticed on my website.

3395
03:17:57,820 --> 03:17:59,820
That the number of searches.

3396
03:17:59,820 --> 03:18:01,820
I mean 80% of my traffic.

3397
03:18:01,820 --> 03:18:03,820
On bitcointakeover.com.

3398
03:18:03,820 --> 03:18:05,820
Is driven by search engines.

3399
03:18:05,820 --> 03:18:07,820
And I noticed that.

3400
03:18:07,820 --> 03:18:09,820
The amount of clicks is decreasing.

3401
03:18:09,820 --> 03:18:11,820
I went from.

3402
03:18:11,820 --> 03:18:13,820
I think during the bull market.

3403
03:18:13,820 --> 03:18:15,820
I had around 500 views a day.

3404
03:18:15,820 --> 03:18:17,820
On articles.

3405
03:18:17,820 --> 03:18:19,820
To less than 100.

3406
03:18:21,820 --> 03:18:23,820
It's like that.

3407
03:18:23,820 --> 03:18:25,820
Also the podcast is not doing so great.

3408
03:18:25,820 --> 03:18:27,820
But if you're listening to this.

3409
03:18:27,820 --> 03:18:29,820
I'm really grateful.

3410
03:18:29,820 --> 03:18:31,820
Me too.

3411
03:18:31,820 --> 03:18:33,820
This is a good one.

3412
03:18:33,820 --> 03:18:35,820
There's so many bad bitcoin podcasts.

3413
03:18:35,820 --> 03:18:37,820
That are just unlistenable.

3414
03:18:37,820 --> 03:18:39,820
But you know.

3415
03:18:39,820 --> 03:18:41,820
They're making more money than me.

3416
03:18:41,820 --> 03:18:43,820
Yeah.

3417
03:18:43,820 --> 03:18:45,820
I just said.

3418
03:18:45,820 --> 03:18:47,820
They're really really generic.

3419
03:18:47,820 --> 03:18:49,820
And predictable.

3420
03:18:49,820 --> 03:18:51,820
That would be really well.

3421
03:18:51,820 --> 03:18:53,820
It's kind of depressing.

3422
03:18:53,820 --> 03:18:55,820
When you think about it.

3423
03:18:55,820 --> 03:18:57,820
And I don't want to change the subject.

3424
03:18:57,820 --> 03:18:59,820
To be this about myself.

3425
03:18:59,820 --> 03:19:01,820
But if I just did a podcast.

3426
03:19:01,820 --> 03:19:03,820
Where I just said.

3427
03:19:03,820 --> 03:19:05,820
Bitcoin is going to 1 million dollars.

3428
03:19:05,820 --> 03:19:07,820
And talk about this every day.

3429
03:19:07,820 --> 03:19:09,820
And say it's invincible.

3430
03:19:09,820 --> 03:19:11,820
It's unstoppable.

3431
03:19:11,820 --> 03:19:13,820
It's a rock.

3432
03:19:13,820 --> 03:19:15,820
You know.

3433
03:19:15,820 --> 03:19:17,820
Satoshi was an alien.

3434
03:19:17,820 --> 03:19:19,820
He was a time traveler.

3435
03:19:19,820 --> 03:19:21,820
He was a genius.

3436
03:19:21,820 --> 03:19:23,820
He was this and that.

3437
03:19:23,820 --> 03:19:25,820
I could make so much money.

3438
03:19:25,820 --> 03:19:27,820
If I did that.

3439
03:19:27,820 --> 03:19:29,820
Also if I had a British accent.

3440
03:19:29,820 --> 03:19:31,820
But I don't.

3441
03:19:31,820 --> 03:19:33,820
I choose to follow this path.

3442
03:19:33,820 --> 03:19:35,820
And it's hard.

3443
03:19:35,820 --> 03:19:37,820
It will pay off Vlad.

3444
03:19:37,820 --> 03:19:39,820
Don't worry.

3445
03:19:39,820 --> 03:19:41,820
It's going to pay off.

3446
03:19:41,820 --> 03:19:43,820
What do you look at?

3447
03:19:43,820 --> 03:19:45,820
Never mind.

3448
03:19:45,820 --> 03:19:47,820
Let's just continue watching.

3449
03:19:47,820 --> 03:19:49,820
I was just curious.

3450
03:19:49,820 --> 03:19:51,820
I would have liked to know.

3451
03:19:51,820 --> 03:19:53,637
Is the audience paying attention?

3452
03:19:53,637 --> 03:19:57,517
What is the audience paying attention? Do they laugh at anything? Are they really
interested?

3453
03:19:57,517 --> 03:20:01,677
Because this kicked off this panel. And then there was one throwaway joke about
ordinals. And then

3454
03:20:01,677 --> 03:20:07,597
everyone felt compelled to talk about this idea. Now it does seem like they got it
out of their

3455
03:20:07,597 --> 03:20:13,117
system. They're a little. They're whinging and complaining. And they're
conventioning.

3456
03:20:13,117 --> 03:20:18,957
And now they're kind of like. Okay. Wait a minute. I'm the criterion of what do we
give

3457
03:20:19,917 --> 03:20:25,597
the people who want ring signatures? What do we give the people who want something
to use tomorrow?

3458
03:20:27,197 --> 03:20:32,317
Or who are willing to change the security trade-off? What do we give the people? The

3459
03:20:32,317 --> 03:20:38,557
Ethereum people? They're like we've got nothing. Paul's idea is the only idea. So I
don't. They're

3460
03:20:38,557 --> 03:20:42,717
not quite saying that. But they're sort of. People sort of get it a little bit.

3461
03:20:43,277 --> 03:20:50,477
But now we're going to hear Peter dump cold water over everyone. Or we're going to
try, I suppose.

3462
03:20:51,677 --> 03:20:59,517
Maybe. Also, before I press play, I just want to make this remark. Last year you
were there on this

3463
03:20:59,517 --> 03:21:04,877
exact panel about unpopular opinions. But they did not talk about Drivechains as
much as they

3464
03:21:04,877 --> 03:21:10,637
did when you were not there. Well, I remember that I changed it to Drivechain at
some point.

3465
03:21:11,597 --> 03:21:14,877
We talked about it the whole time. And then I said, how much time do we have?

3466
03:21:15,757 --> 03:21:18,237
And then I said, just keep going. The whole audience was like, keep going.

3467
03:21:19,357 --> 03:21:24,397
So then we did talk about it for a little bit. I don't know. Did you actually time
it out? I would

3468
03:21:24,397 --> 03:21:29,517
be interested to know how far we got it on last year. Maybe it was like 25 minutes.
I don't know.

3469
03:21:29,517 --> 03:21:36,237
No, it was longer. But the whole panel was very long last year. But I don't know how
much. There

3470
03:21:36,237 --> 03:21:43,357
was like a Drivechain section. So I don't know if we compared them. I honestly don't
know if we

3471
03:21:43,357 --> 03:21:50,237
made it to half an hour. This seems like it was more. You're right. Yes. Anyway,
let's push on.

3472
03:21:51,917 --> 03:21:57,117
Mining decentralized is that having things like Drivechains makes mining inherently

3473
03:21:57,117 --> 03:22:01,357
more centralized because it makes it much more complex. And once you start getting
these failure

3474
03:22:01,357 --> 03:22:08,157
modes, you know, you cannot be a P2 pool miner in a Drivechains world so easily.
That's your

3475
03:22:08,157 --> 03:22:13,277
real issue. But I also kind of want to say, like, you know, as much as you go talk
about, well,

3476
03:22:13,277 --> 03:22:16,477
you know, Lightning can't support this, Lightning can't support that. I mean, we're
probably,

3477
03:22:16,477 --> 03:22:22,157
what, ten years away from Lightning even beginning to go and hit these limits in
terms of actual

3478
03:22:22,157 --> 03:22:27,197
adoption? Ten years is a long time. I mean, for all I know, in five years we're
going to invent

3479
03:22:27,517 --> 03:22:31,677
Lightning 2.0 and we'll fix all these problems. I don't know, man. I mean, like 2008
happened in

3480
03:22:31,677 --> 03:22:35,357
the blink of an eye and it could happen again. So I don't want to be a scaremonger.
And then

3481
03:22:35,357 --> 03:22:39,837
also for all the unbanked regions of the world which want access to decent and
stable money,

3482
03:22:39,837 --> 03:22:43,597
like, I mean, you can laugh at that. But I mean, I think it's important that they
have access to

3483
03:22:43,597 --> 03:22:49,117
it. And how do we give them access to it? How do we give them access to it now? I
just don't see

3484
03:22:49,117 --> 03:22:54,077
Bitcoin getting to that level of growth that quickly. I think it would be much
better waiting.

3485
03:22:54,077 --> 03:23:00,477
So if we're talking about mining, like, maybe, you know, the fact that these
Drivechains exist

3486
03:23:00,477 --> 03:23:05,677
and we're reliant upon those miners to not collude and then steal our money, maybe
that is the thing

3487
03:23:05,677 --> 03:23:10,397
which then, like, adds, puts more energy into projects like StramV2. All right,
guys, we ate

3488
03:23:10,397 --> 03:23:16,077
up 23 minutes on Drivechains. Maybe we can try one more. Can I make a quick summary?
Just that,

3489
03:23:16,077 --> 03:23:21,837
like, to summarize, you said we want this. There's no we. Like, the problem is that
we all want

3490
03:23:21,837 --> 03:23:25,757
different things, and that will never stop being true. And so you're only ever can
expect the

3491
03:23:25,757 --> 03:23:29,037
lowest common denominator out of Bitcoin. I'm just talking about the conflicting

3492
03:23:30,077 --> 03:23:37,757
souls inside my brain. And I think, like, we need to start talking and communicating
more clearly

3493
03:23:37,757 --> 03:23:42,557
about the gold conflicts that we have. Because even within this room, we have very
different

3494
03:23:42,557 --> 03:23:50,557
goals for Bitcoin that create these tensions. And oftentimes, I see people just
talking past

3495
03:23:50,557 --> 03:23:54,397
each other, because this guy has this goal, and this guy has that goal in their
attention,

3496
03:23:54,397 --> 03:23:59,837
and then they argue. Whereas in reality, it's like, yeah, this is my goal. This is
my goal.

3497
03:23:59,837 --> 03:24:04,877
Okay, we could also be civil and find some kind of common ground, because that's the
only thing

3498
03:24:04,877 --> 03:24:08,797
that's going to end up happening anyway. This is the difference between rhetoric and
dialectic,

3499
03:24:08,797 --> 03:24:12,957
like, often within that kind of maximus ideology. Rhetoric is very important,
because it is something,

3500
03:24:12,957 --> 03:24:19,437
it's a security mechanism for Bitcoin. But we do not, the dialectic is good that we
have,

3501
03:24:19,597 --> 03:24:22,957
different conflicting ideas, which then find synthesis, and that's how you progress.

3502
03:24:22,957 --> 03:24:26,157
And if you just use rhetoric, then you don't progress. So there's a balance to be
had where,

3503
03:24:26,157 --> 03:24:32,557
yes, absolutely. I first heard the word drive-chainer a couple of days ago, or
yesterday

3504
03:24:32,557 --> 03:24:37,197
on Twitter. And I was like, am I a drive-chainer? Because I don't think it's an
altogether terrible

3505
03:24:37,197 --> 03:24:43,917
idea, or parts of it aren't a terrible idea. So let me go back to something you said
earlier,

3506
03:24:43,917 --> 03:24:48,797
which is probably also a source of contention that we can all talk about. I think
you said,

3507
03:24:49,677 --> 03:24:53,597
increasing the block size on Bitcoin would be a better idea than Drivechains.

3508
03:24:53,597 --> 03:24:58,477
Did I hear you correctly? Increasing the block size is a better idea than
Drivechains for the

3509
03:24:58,477 --> 03:25:06,397
purpose of increasing the block size. Okay, so does that take us into block size
wars 2.0?

3510
03:25:08,957 --> 03:25:15,197
There is a version of Drivechains advocacy that says, we're going to do this, go
scale Bitcoin.

3511
03:25:15,197 --> 03:25:20,317
And what that advocacy really is, is we're going to do this so we can increase the
block size

3512
03:25:20,317 --> 03:25:24,637
without increasing the block size. And that way of increasing the block size,
allowing more

3513
03:25:24,637 --> 03:25:30,157
transactions per second, it's far more technically complex, and in particular, much
more politically

3514
03:25:30,157 --> 03:25:36,477
complex than just increasing the block size. In a way, Peter's joke is a little bit
like

3515
03:25:36,477 --> 03:25:43,517
post-hoc move. The Blockstream version of miner-based SPV, fraud-proof-based
sidechain,

3516
03:25:43,517 --> 03:25:49,837
was so complex, and it trusted miners anyway. So Paul said, let's just do something
more obvious,

3517
03:25:49,837 --> 03:25:53,757
which does the same thing, trusting miners. And Peter says, okay, that will create
basically a

3518
03:25:53,757 --> 03:25:58,877
block size increase. At this point, you could basically just increase the blocks. So
I think

3519
03:25:58,877 --> 03:26:06,077
that it was Adam maybe today in another panel saying that eventually, in some years,
the long

3520
03:26:06,077 --> 03:26:12,877
tail, social long tail of the block size war will basically begin to evaporate, and
we will be able

3521
03:26:12,877 --> 03:26:19,597
maybe to discuss block size limit again a little bit. For example, most of the
people

3522
03:26:19,597 --> 03:26:23,677
disagree with the GigaMech idiocy of the block.

3523
03:26:26,477 --> 03:26:30,397
Okay, now we're touching on very advanced and nuanced concepts, which is very good.

3524
03:26:30,397 --> 03:26:35,597
And in fact, so many went that I had to take some notes. But I think, okay, so Peter
Todd

3525
03:26:35,597 --> 03:26:39,997
seriously saying that we won't have to worry about this for 10 years because we'll
grow that slowly,

3526
03:26:39,997 --> 03:26:45,277
like that, I think is, I don't agree with that at all. I think that is,

3527
03:26:46,237 --> 03:26:54,077
that's a really weird thing to presume. I think that Bitcoin has grown so quickly.

3528
03:26:54,077 --> 03:26:59,437
And I agree 2008 could happen at any moment. I honestly think, you know, the long
run fiscal

3529
03:26:59,437 --> 03:27:05,997
situation of the United States government is also like, you know, we don't know
where the line is,

3530
03:27:05,997 --> 03:27:12,077
but at some point, it will be will be hit. And that would be a great day for
Bitcoin.

3531
03:27:13,677 --> 03:27:19,357
I also think it's like, until we show people that we actually could scale to 8
billion people in

3532
03:27:19,357 --> 03:27:24,557
some form, no one will take it seriously, because they'll just think like, well,
that

3533
03:27:25,677 --> 03:27:32,717
that project will grow to its maximum size, and then it will hit a wall. And then
everyone who

3534
03:27:32,717 --> 03:27:37,437
involved everyone involved, you have to switch the whole I think money is a lot like
a language,

3535
03:27:37,437 --> 03:27:43,357
personally, everyone's gonna have to switch at like, basically the same time. That's
part of

3536
03:27:43,357 --> 03:27:47,437
why I think everyone's so preoccupied with the price. But so I don't know, I think
that it's

3537
03:27:47,437 --> 03:27:53,357
very weird. And then for Peter Todd to say that it is a block size increase is
untrue. Because,

3538
03:27:54,077 --> 03:27:58,157
first of all, the proposal, there's a line of code that changes the block size. And
this line,

3539
03:27:58,157 --> 03:28:06,317
this 5300 does not change that line of code. But also the idea of what what the
block size is,

3540
03:28:06,317 --> 03:28:10,397
is has nothing to do with what miners do. Absolutely nothing whatsoever.

3541
03:28:11,757 --> 03:28:18,717
It's just the cost of running an L1 full node. So if the miners need to do natural
gas,

3542
03:28:18,717 --> 03:28:23,117
flaring credits, or the miners need to buy a six, and they can't make it with FPGA,

3543
03:28:23,837 --> 03:28:29,597
or CPU mining, that they need to do that has nothing what miners do has nothing to
do with

3544
03:28:29,597 --> 03:28:33,837
the block size debate, it was all about how difficult it would be to run a node,

3545
03:28:33,837 --> 03:28:37,677
how difficult it would be to measure confirmations for yourself without relying on
someone else.

3546
03:28:38,237 --> 03:28:43,357
The node is like the cell, it's like a bacterial cell. So if all the cells are
killed,

3547
03:28:44,077 --> 03:28:51,837
the node cell can regenerate, just like the character cell from Dragon Ball Z.

3548
03:28:52,397 --> 03:28:55,757
Okay, maybe these analogies are, you know, they're very good. But the point is,

3549
03:28:55,757 --> 03:29:00,797
at one point, he goes down to one cell, you know, I'm talking about Vlad, and then
that's it.

3550
03:29:01,357 --> 03:29:07,197
Because each cell has the same DNA, one node can regenerate the whole network if it
shuts down.

3551
03:29:07,197 --> 03:29:10,957
So it's the cost of starting up the new node is the cost of the cell dividing.

3552
03:29:11,757 --> 03:29:15,357
That is the only thing that matters. And what miners need to do, if we cared about
that,

3553
03:29:15,357 --> 03:29:18,877
we would just remove the difficulty adjustments from blocks. And then Peter is going
to say

3554
03:29:18,877 --> 03:29:23,517
something about like, what about the fixed cost of mining? There really is no such
thing,

3555
03:29:23,517 --> 03:29:27,357
because the miners are going to minimize their costs using whatever combination of
fixed and

3556
03:29:27,357 --> 03:29:31,597
variable costs they find appropriate for their time horizon. And that's always been
the case,

3557
03:29:31,597 --> 03:29:37,037
and that always will be the case. The fixed cost of running these nodes is also
basically zero

3558
03:29:37,037 --> 03:29:42,157
anyway. It costs nothing because the regular users have to run these nodes.

3559
03:29:42,157 --> 03:29:46,877
If the nodes are too expensive, the miners will all use Blind Merged Mining to shirk
the cost.

3560
03:29:47,597 --> 03:29:52,717
So that cost is zero. So the whole thing is just gigantic. Anyone who says that it
is a

3561
03:29:52,717 --> 03:29:57,757
block size increase is completely and totally false. This is my attempt, honestly,
to protect

3562
03:29:57,757 --> 03:30:04,877
the block size limit and keep it small. And so I completely and totally disagree
with that 100%.

3563
03:30:05,197 --> 03:30:11,437
And then I wrote the word social, but I don't remember why. Oh, I think he's... Oh,

3564
03:30:11,437 --> 03:30:18,957
because Giacomo is talking about the scars of the block size war. But now you start
to see,

3565
03:30:18,957 --> 03:30:23,677
now they're really talking about it. Because now what they're kind of saying is,
except for Peter

3566
03:30:23,677 --> 03:30:30,477
Todd, and who knows what John Carvalho is saying, I really don't. I think he's
getting a little bit

3567
03:30:30,477 --> 03:30:37,517
of a Vinnie Gupta blah, blah, blah kind of vibe. I don't even really know what he's
talking about.

3568
03:30:37,517 --> 03:30:46,797
But what they're kind of saying now is we have no other good idea. This idea is
good,

3569
03:30:46,797 --> 03:30:53,517
but a whole set of ideas can't even be discussed for an irrational social reason.
And so we need

3570
03:30:53,517 --> 03:30:59,357
to wait until we're in a better mood. And you see then how just irrational it is.

3571
03:31:00,477 --> 03:31:11,197
The idea that we would wait is, I think, a risk, a very big risk. Why would we do
that?

3572
03:31:13,517 --> 03:31:18,957
Well, I guess your proposal is too complex for most people to understand.

3573
03:31:21,437 --> 03:31:24,397
It just counts to 13,000. That's all it does on L1.

3574
03:31:25,677 --> 03:31:28,877
Most people never counted to more than 100, honestly.

3575
03:31:30,477 --> 03:31:38,397
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh, well, maybe we can do something. Maybe when I go to

3576
03:31:38,397 --> 03:31:46,397
Bitcoin Amsterdam and we'll get like a BIP300 exhibit somehow.

3577
03:31:47,677 --> 03:31:55,117
It'll just be a number. It'll be a giant wheel that spins to 13,000 and then spins
back. I don't know.

3578
03:31:55,997 --> 03:32:00,557
I mean, they say this and this, but they don't even like... So I hate to play this
card because

3579
03:32:00,557 --> 03:32:05,037
it is mean. But again, Giacomo, he didn't know that it was changed back to an opcode

3580
03:32:05,037 --> 03:32:09,517
a long time ago. So he was like, well, it's not really an opcode. But that means he
hasn't opened...

3581
03:32:09,517 --> 03:32:14,877
I hate to play it because it really doesn't matter that much. But he has not... You
could

3582
03:32:14,877 --> 03:32:19,437
prove that he has not opened the BIP text and just glanced at it to refresh his
memory.

3583
03:32:19,437 --> 03:32:24,957
Because it says right at the beginning, op not 5. You know, so it's like...

3584
03:32:30,477 --> 03:32:36,077
You know, like, what do you want me to do? You know, even God needed a lump of clay
when he

3585
03:32:36,077 --> 03:32:42,477
created man, right? So I can't literally do everything. All right, now let's see
what Giacomo

3586
03:32:43,037 --> 03:32:43,597
has to say.

3587
03:32:43,597 --> 03:32:49,997
Of course, but some more nuanced takes about... I remember Rossi Manningfield
proposing elastic

3588
03:32:49,997 --> 03:32:56,237
block size based on minimum fees. There were some proposals that were not completely
retarded. So

3589
03:32:56,237 --> 03:33:02,797
maybe some people will start discussing them again. But the principle of not
creating bad

3590
03:33:02,797 --> 03:33:10,717
precedence of minorities, organized minorities, to the BIP text, to the BIP text, to
the BIP text,

3591
03:33:11,277 --> 03:33:15,517
organized minorities taking over the rules for everybody, and the principle of
keeping the

3592
03:33:15,517 --> 03:33:22,557
network rules reliable, predictable, honest, backward compatibles, that's really the
point

3593
03:33:22,557 --> 03:33:27,277
of the fork wars, even more the block size. I think that many participants of the
block size

3594
03:33:27,277 --> 03:33:32,237
will not be opposed to... Actually, most of the people agreed to go to basically
four megabytes

3595
03:33:32,237 --> 03:33:36,477
with SegWit. So most of the people were not really small blockers. They were like,

3596
03:33:36,477 --> 03:33:41,517
do not change Bitcoin, especially under the false pretense of some kind of
emergency,

3597
03:33:42,077 --> 03:33:48,717
if we don't have the buy-in of all the economy for certain reason, predictable
times,

3598
03:33:48,717 --> 03:33:53,357
and after a lot of thinking and testing and discussing.

3599
03:33:53,357 --> 03:33:54,317
Of course, also, I mean...

3600
03:33:55,437 --> 03:34:00,077
Thank you. You should not apply. That means I'm popular and I'm losing here.

3601
03:34:00,077 --> 03:34:01,117
Yeah, that was not unpopular.

3602
03:34:01,197 --> 03:34:05,837
Also, remember, like, a four, you know, SegWit was basically 4x block size increase.

3603
03:34:06,397 --> 03:34:11,837
4x is not very big. I mean, in, you know, in a system like Bitcoin, you would expect
to have

3604
03:34:11,837 --> 03:34:17,117
safety margins. You know, you would expect the engineering to work still if the
block size was

3605
03:34:17,117 --> 03:34:21,997
like 10x bigger, because you want to have a 10x safety margin on all this stuff. I
mean, this is,

3606
03:34:21,997 --> 03:34:26,157
you know, like, what, half a trillion dollars worth of value right now? You want big
safety

3607
03:34:26,157 --> 03:34:31,357
margins on this. And the thing with Drivechains is you get that safety, like, look
at this way.

3608
03:34:32,077 --> 03:34:38,077
Could you go and run your node with maybe a 10x bigger hard drive? How much more
would that really

3609
03:34:38,077 --> 03:34:44,157
cost you versus now being distracted by a whole bunch of bullshit political crap
about doing

3610
03:34:44,157 --> 03:34:50,237
UASFs to go and save people's funds? The latter occupies much more value in terms of
your time,

3611
03:34:50,237 --> 03:34:56,157
your attention, than a slightly more expensive computer. That's the real issue here.

3612
03:34:56,717 --> 03:34:58,717
And it's easier to hijack politically.

3613
03:35:02,077 --> 03:35:05,837
Well, again, I mean, it's designed so that people on layer one can't ignore it.

3614
03:35:05,837 --> 03:35:10,317
So he's right, it is the issue, but he doesn't seem to agree with me that I have
solved it.

3615
03:35:10,877 --> 03:35:16,317
So if you don't want to pay attention to those UASFs, then don't, because absolutely
nothing

3616
03:35:16,317 --> 03:35:20,477
bad can happen to you as a result of ignoring them. You don't have to participate in
any of

3617
03:35:20,477 --> 03:35:26,397
these. Like I was saying, the security model involves, is based on fees, and it
involves some

3618
03:35:26,397 --> 03:35:33,037
of the sidechains failing. So if it involves some of them failing, then how can it
be that

3619
03:35:33,037 --> 03:35:37,997
I require people to care about UASFs to protect? No, I'm requiring some of them to
fail.

3620
03:35:38,717 --> 03:35:48,237
I give examples. In the 2016 one, in the video, I give an example of how there's
like competing

3621
03:35:48,237 --> 03:35:52,077
versions of a chain, and it's actually in everyone's best interest for miners to
kill

3622
03:35:52,077 --> 03:35:55,997
the chain. So I want the miners to kill the chain. So I do not want the UASF to
succeed.

3623
03:35:57,117 --> 03:36:01,597
It's completely the opposite of the case. So he's right about that being the issue,

3624
03:36:02,077 --> 03:36:07,997
but I have already fixed the issue. I preemptively fixed it. So

3625
03:36:10,957 --> 03:36:14,877
I don't know. It's not the issue he thinks it is. Just anyone who's listening,

3626
03:36:14,877 --> 03:36:22,397
you can ignore every Drivechain UASF, just like you ignore everything else probably.

3627
03:36:23,837 --> 03:36:27,677
And of course, as I said before, they're actually hard forks. They're not even UASF,
they're UAHF.

3628
03:36:27,677 --> 03:36:37,997
Let me think of what else to say. The goal is to ignore...

3629
03:36:40,397 --> 03:36:45,917
Well, let me see. I wrote down some stuff. Okay. So I agree with Giacomo that the
hard fork...

3630
03:36:50,637 --> 03:36:56,077
The problem was really the hard fork, I thought. I disagreed with large blockism.

3631
03:36:58,317 --> 03:37:01,117
Because I thought it'd be like the debt ceiling where it would just raise all the
time and then

3632
03:37:01,117 --> 03:37:09,277
what's the point? But the issue is they had a terrible strategy and the hard fork is
too

3633
03:37:09,277 --> 03:37:17,517
dangerous a tool. So I just thought they didn't know what they were doing and they
did rush it.

3634
03:37:17,517 --> 03:37:29,597
And yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's kind of a catch-22 because they say we have
to

3635
03:37:29,597 --> 03:37:34,397
carefully discuss everything, but then only recently have they carefully discussed
it.

3636
03:37:34,397 --> 03:37:40,237
And I think it's only because certain miners said they were very interested in
activating

3637
03:37:40,237 --> 03:37:44,477
BIP300 that people are talking about it now. So I think it's a little bit of a...

3638
03:37:44,477 --> 03:37:53,437
We do suffer from a lack of an actual process because it just means that it is
something of a

3639
03:37:53,437 --> 03:38:02,237
mob process. But yeah, it's disappointing that Peter Todd believes that... But it's
interesting

3640
03:38:02,237 --> 03:38:09,757
that he's riffing here and then he read... He clearly read some of the stuff I was
tweeting

3641
03:38:09,757 --> 03:38:14,717
in the run-up to TabConf while he was... If I'm remembering correctly, there was
some time

3642
03:38:14,717 --> 03:38:23,117
in between. It was a week off or something. So he didn't say any of this about UASFs
at all

3643
03:38:23,677 --> 03:38:29,757
in the debate with me. So I guess he... Here he's saying that's the main issue here,

3644
03:38:29,757 --> 03:38:34,637
but then when the debate with me, he switched back. He'd switched completely off of
that

3645
03:38:34,637 --> 03:38:40,077
and didn't bring it up one time. And he didn't bring it up at all and he'd switched
to this

3646
03:38:40,077 --> 03:38:46,797
minor fixed cost thing. So he had abandoned the... What he says here is the crucial
thing.

3647
03:38:48,077 --> 03:38:53,277
He is something he abandoned when he had to debate me in person in Atlanta a week
later. So

3648
03:38:55,757 --> 03:38:59,997
I don't know. I mean, I interpret that as him saying that he looked into it more and
he realized

3649
03:38:59,997 --> 03:39:05,277
that it is not based on UASFs, it's based on fees. And that actually he realized
that I do

3650
03:39:05,277 --> 03:39:11,117
want... I want some of them to fail, which makes it really impossible to argue that
it relies on

3651
03:39:11,117 --> 03:39:18,317
UASFs since it's like, which UASF do I want? A failure or success. I say they rise
or fall

3652
03:39:18,317 --> 03:39:24,557
in their fees. They're like restaurants. The threat of going bankrupt is what keeps

3653
03:39:25,517 --> 03:39:26,477
the quality high.

3654
03:39:32,717 --> 03:39:40,557
When shitcoiners debate weak subjectivity, like even if your node doesn't know the
right

3655
03:39:40,557 --> 03:39:46,317
sequence of transaction, if it's slow enough, you will just go on Twitter and make
it out socially.

3656
03:39:46,317 --> 03:39:51,117
But that's actually the part which is easier to manipulate. You can have any kind of
gatekeeper

3657
03:39:51,117 --> 03:39:55,517
of the social discussion, can easily create a campaign in which you think if you
read,

3658
03:39:56,077 --> 03:40:00,957
you know how the block size wars ended. But if you read the Reddit during the peak
of the block

3659
03:40:00,957 --> 03:40:07,037
size wars, everybody was a super giga mega big blocker. It was just completely
derailed. So

3660
03:40:08,157 --> 03:40:15,037
moving the consensus... I disagree with that. For me, it was always clear that the
small blockers

3661
03:40:15,037 --> 03:40:21,357
had it. But it's interesting that he feels that way. I would be interested in
hearing more about.

3662
03:40:23,037 --> 03:40:29,277
I definitely don't think of... r slash bitcoin was controlled by

3663
03:40:30,237 --> 03:40:32,877
Thamos, who was a small blocker or was very supportive.

3664
03:40:35,117 --> 03:40:38,237
So I don't know why he would even say that. That's a very strange thing to say.

3665
03:40:38,797 --> 03:40:41,997
I don't think very many people would agree with him, but maybe not. But

3666
03:40:42,557 --> 03:40:50,237
yeah, like discussion of block size increases and hard forks was like purged from r
slash bitcoin.

3667
03:40:50,237 --> 03:40:54,077
That was one of the things Roger Ver wouldn't stop complaining about. He would
complain about

3668
03:40:54,077 --> 03:40:59,357
it all the time. So I disagree with that. And this idea that again, it's social
consensus.

3669
03:41:00,077 --> 03:41:05,197
This is only... if you're only on L1, none of this is affecting you. It's only if
you're on L2

3670
03:41:05,197 --> 03:41:09,517
that you have to worry about a hypothetical persuasion of the miners to take the
coins

3671
03:41:09,517 --> 03:41:16,397
for some reason. There is no sense in which the miners are convinced to send the
coins to

3672
03:41:16,397 --> 03:41:23,837
a certain destination by humans. If the sidechain software, which is committed to,

3673
03:41:23,837 --> 03:41:32,397
you commit to the actual software when you create and the sidechain takes slot seven
or something,

3674
03:41:32,397 --> 03:41:39,197
you commit to it. And that software, if you run it, it will tell you what the
withdrawal hash is.

3675
03:41:40,237 --> 03:41:44,237
So there's no sense in which... I think there's this misconception that the miners
all meet

3676
03:41:45,277 --> 03:41:49,437
and they meet like in Vatican City or something and they decide, okay, here's where
all the

3677
03:41:49,437 --> 03:41:53,917
coins should go. But the sidechain software is what tells them. It tells everyone.

3678
03:41:55,037 --> 03:42:01,037
It tells literally everyone who runs the software for free, screams it. It's in the
header of every

3679
03:42:01,037 --> 03:42:05,437
block. It's at the ribbon in the bottom of the GUI. It's everywhere. They know where
it should

3680
03:42:05,437 --> 03:42:09,357
be. And if they want to do something else, they have to decide what that would be.
It

3681
03:42:09,357 --> 03:42:15,357
has to be something that adds up to a transaction ID of a certain format of
something that will be

3682
03:42:15,357 --> 03:42:25,677
withdrawn from the BIP300 UTXO. So it's very weird if they... The persuaders are
really have a huge

3683
03:42:25,677 --> 03:42:30,477
amount of work cut out for them. So I don't know. I think that this is again,
because Giacomo has

3684
03:42:30,477 --> 03:42:35,917
not read the BIT.

3685
03:42:35,917 --> 03:42:42,797
From the automatism of my node to some kind of social awareness that will magically
spread around

3686
03:42:42,797 --> 03:42:47,197
is very risky because it makes Bitcoin highly susceptible to politics.

3687
03:42:47,197 --> 03:42:52,077
Don't forget you're susceptible to legal too. I mean, right now I have two lawsuits
against me

3688
03:42:52,077 --> 03:42:57,037
from Craig Wright and one of them is to go recover his allegedly stolen coins.

3689
03:42:57,357 --> 03:43:01,677
And that is precisely the kind of legal action that you could expect when you go
have people

3690
03:43:01,677 --> 03:43:05,597
losing coins and Drivechains that go fail and you could easily have miners being
sued.

3691
03:43:05,597 --> 03:43:06,637
Miners being sued. Hey, you...

3692
03:43:08,477 --> 03:43:16,077
You could, but it, you know, like, there's no sense in which, like, who are they
going to sue?

3693
03:43:16,077 --> 03:43:21,677
Like a mining pool? All of the mining pools? One, you know, if you ever win, the
mining pool can

3694
03:43:22,237 --> 03:43:25,597
the mining pool can just dissolve. This is the software we should

3695
03:43:30,157 --> 03:43:33,037
build. All the mining pools can like declare bankruptcy and just reform.

3696
03:43:34,157 --> 03:43:41,037
Like with a click of a button. But it's, I don't think, you know, you could sue,

3697
03:43:41,997 --> 03:43:46,077
but that's not how it would work. Because what would happen is there would be a

3698
03:43:47,037 --> 03:43:52,557
a failure on the sidechain. And there would be something like whatever the DAO,

3699
03:43:52,557 --> 03:43:55,517
and there'd be something over there, but it would be according to Ethereum's rules,

3700
03:43:55,517 --> 03:44:00,797
it would have the correct withdrawal. And by the time, by the time you could even do
this,

3701
03:44:00,797 --> 03:44:05,197
the coins would have changed hands and they would be new owners withdrawing.

3702
03:44:05,197 --> 03:44:08,397
That's in the case where the miners are not stealing. Maybe I'm not explaining this
very well,

3703
03:44:08,397 --> 03:44:11,677
but I'm saying if there's some kind of hack or something confusing or something
social or

3704
03:44:11,677 --> 03:44:17,997
whatever, it would be too, it would be like too difficult. It's only when,
ironically,

3705
03:44:17,997 --> 03:44:23,837
it's only because the Ethereum DAO hack had this weird delay that it was even
possible for them to

3706
03:44:23,837 --> 03:44:31,997
try to stop it. But if miners steal from the sidechain, in a sense, like the logic
of BIP300 is

3707
03:44:31,997 --> 03:44:38,317
that they should steal if the fees don't justify the chain. So they are doing their
job if they

3708
03:44:38,317 --> 03:44:44,237
steal. And the reason why they should not steal is because they want to maximize the
long run

3709
03:44:44,237 --> 03:44:49,197
transaction fee volume. Everyone's afraid. If you use Drivechain,

3710
03:44:49,197 --> 03:44:52,237
you're afraid that your money will be stolen by miners.

3711
03:44:52,676 --> 03:44:57,676
But if you're a miner, you're afraid that no one will want to use the Drivechains
and you won't get the fee revenue.

3712
03:44:58,676 --> 03:45:02,676
So it's a mutual fear Mexican standoff.

3713
03:45:03,676 --> 03:45:06,676
That is how it works. And yeah, you can always be sued.

3714
03:45:07,676 --> 03:45:11,676
I mean, that would be great. If lawsuits against miners, that would decentralize
mining.

3715
03:45:12,676 --> 03:45:17,676
I would be in favor of that because that's what would be better at decentralizing
mining.

3716
03:45:17,676 --> 03:45:20,676
What would be better at decentralizing mining than that?

3717
03:45:21,676 --> 03:45:28,676
If we have enough of those, eventually we'll have mining pools that are completely
open source and completely behind Tor or something.

3718
03:45:29,676 --> 03:45:30,676
That would be great, I think.

3719
03:45:31,676 --> 03:45:45,676
But I mean, the fact that he uses Craig as Wright's frivolous lawsuit against him as
an example of why we should care about lawsuits is, I think, actually 180 degrees
defeating the point.

3720
03:45:45,676 --> 03:45:51,676
He's just saying any idiot can sue any other idiot about anything. So who cares
about that?

3721
03:45:52,676 --> 03:46:01,676
But it's true that I guess there's a tiny nugget of truth in that it does create
salient days and salient events.

3722
03:46:02,676 --> 03:46:06,676
Like this is the day of the withdrawal, kind of like the having.

3723
03:46:07,676 --> 03:46:10,676
So it creates salient days.

3724
03:46:11,676 --> 03:46:14,676
And I can say, on this day, something else should have happened.

3725
03:46:15,676 --> 03:46:25,676
Isn't it ironic, though, that you were just telling me before that Luke Dashjr.
said the advantage of Liquid is that you can sue the people who withdraw.

3726
03:46:26,676 --> 03:46:28,676
Now it's a disadvantage because those people can be sued.

3727
03:46:29,676 --> 03:46:32,676
Blah, blah, blah, you know, like whatever, right?

3728
03:46:33,676 --> 03:46:35,676
You can't win. That's the point.

3729
03:46:40,676 --> 03:46:44,676
You failed to go and mine the right side of that fork, effectively.

3730
03:46:45,676 --> 03:46:47,676
You failed to prevent the theft happening.

3731
03:46:48,676 --> 03:46:54,676
You have a duty of care to go and like run the sidechain client and to go and
validate those rules to make sure that fork didn't happen.

3732
03:46:55,676 --> 03:46:57,676
You know, you were being negligent by not running that code.

3733
03:46:58,676 --> 03:47:01,676
Oh, you're a small miner? Oh, you just run like P2 pool or something?

3734
03:47:02,676 --> 03:47:03,676
Well, I mean, you're being very irresponsible here.

3735
03:47:04,676 --> 03:47:07,676
Why don't you go mine at a proper pool that can afford to go and do its job?

3736
03:47:08,676 --> 03:47:09,676
Like we don't want that.

3737
03:47:10,676 --> 03:47:15,676
Do you agree, basically, why we should have just put Peter between Sergey and John?

3738
03:47:16,676 --> 03:47:21,676
Yeah, I want to address this P2 pool thing, because he brought it up before and I
didn't address it.

3739
03:47:22,676 --> 03:47:26,676
But Peter really wants everyone to use P2 pool.

3740
03:47:27,676 --> 03:47:31,676
And he really doesn't like the idea that there's a loss of efficiency.

3741
03:47:32,676 --> 03:47:38,676
There are a lot of interesting ideas for changing the way people...

3742
03:47:38,676 --> 03:47:44,676
But for those of you who don't know, P2 pool was this neat idea where it was a
decentralized mining pool.

3743
03:47:45,676 --> 03:47:52,676
And it had interesting properties, such as when it found a block, the Coinbase paid
out to like a ton of people.

3744
03:47:53,676 --> 03:47:55,676
Because it paid everyone out like immediately.

3745
03:47:56,676 --> 03:47:58,676
So the Coinbase would be huge.

3746
03:47:59,676 --> 03:48:01,676
I don't know how many outputs it had, but it was a lot.

3747
03:48:02,676 --> 03:48:03,676
Thousands.

3748
03:48:04,676 --> 03:48:07,676
And that, of course, made it kind of inefficient.

3749
03:48:09,676 --> 03:48:17,676
Because the more efficient thing that involves some trust to do would be to just
have an account with the pool in mind.

3750
03:48:18,676 --> 03:48:19,676
And then your account goes up and then cash out.

3751
03:48:20,676 --> 03:48:22,676
But of course, that has the downside of requiring trust.

3752
03:48:23,676 --> 03:48:28,676
Various people have mentioned different inventions and things over the years of
trying to solve this problem.

3753
03:48:29,676 --> 03:48:30,676
But the problem doesn't seem to really exist.

3754
03:48:30,676 --> 03:48:39,676
Because, like I said, the way the pool works is the miners can fire their pool
almost at any time.

3755
03:48:40,676 --> 03:48:41,676
They can point their hash at a completely different pool.

3756
03:48:42,676 --> 03:48:43,676
They probably don't want to or whatever.

3757
03:48:44,676 --> 03:48:46,676
They like their pool, but they have a relationship with their pool.

3758
03:48:47,676 --> 03:48:49,676
But the pool cannot easily...

3759
03:48:50,676 --> 03:48:51,676
It's easy to start a new pool.

3760
03:48:52,676 --> 03:48:56,676
It's not as easy to just spin up a new mining facility that has 15% of the hash
rate.

3761
03:48:57,676 --> 03:48:58,676
That would cost a fortune.

3762
03:48:58,676 --> 03:49:02,676
And it's just like enormous organizational complexity, etc.

3763
03:49:03,676 --> 03:49:09,676
So for Peter, it's really important that mining not have a lot of trust.

3764
03:49:10,676 --> 03:49:16,676
But my point of view is that this is an admirable goal.

3765
03:49:17,676 --> 03:49:19,676
But I think he just doesn't understand Bitcoin mining.

3766
03:49:20,676 --> 03:49:25,676
Because Bitcoin mining is a relentless push for efficiency every two weeks.

3767
03:49:25,676 --> 03:49:37,676
So every single stone that can be turned over and every single idea, the depths of
every idea that can be plumbed.

3768
03:49:38,676 --> 03:49:47,676
So it's not just that they'll cut a couple corners to get a little bit of efficiency
and they'll cut and P2Pool will be a victim.

3769
03:49:48,676 --> 03:49:49,676
It's like everything will be a victim.

3770
03:49:50,676 --> 03:49:51,676
It's just in the name of efficiency.

3771
03:49:52,676 --> 03:49:54,676
And so I don't...

3772
03:49:55,676 --> 03:50:00,676
The P2Pool thing, to me, it just highlights the fact that Peter Todd doesn't
understand mining.

3773
03:50:01,676 --> 03:50:05,676
I mean, I hate to be so dismissive, but what he's saying is like...

3774
03:50:06,676 --> 03:50:11,676
What he's really saying, I'm not sure if this will make sense or not, but he's
saying something like this.

3775
03:50:12,676 --> 03:50:18,676
If I declare to the world tomorrow, I say I'll give every miner $10 a year if they
join my pool.

3776
03:50:18,676 --> 03:50:24,676
What Peter is saying is that this will centralize mining.

3777
03:50:25,676 --> 03:50:30,676
Because everyone will be going through me and I will be able to deny people the $10.

3778
03:50:31,676 --> 03:50:38,676
But my point of view is that it's all just like kind of missing the point, which is
that miners need to...

3779
03:50:39,676 --> 03:50:41,676
They don't want to censor and they want to cut their costs to the bare minimum.

3780
03:50:42,676 --> 03:50:43,676
So they will cut everything.

3781
03:50:44,676 --> 03:50:49,676
And the important thing is that we run our layer one full node to protect us against
the miners' mistakes.

3782
03:50:50,676 --> 03:50:53,676
So it's my view that the nodes outrank the miners.

3783
03:50:54,676 --> 03:50:58,676
But I don't think Peter Todd realizes that his view is the reverse.

3784
03:50:59,676 --> 03:51:02,676
But I guess it's for the audience to decide if they can make any sense of any of
this.

3785
03:51:03,676 --> 03:51:08,676
The miners may make mistakes or they may do things that we don't like.

3786
03:51:09,676 --> 03:51:10,676
But our nodes will protect us.

3787
03:51:10,676 --> 03:51:12,676
Our nodes enforce the difficulty adjustments.

3788
03:51:13,676 --> 03:51:17,676
Our nodes check every block to make sure that it's valid.

3789
03:51:18,676 --> 03:51:23,676
And the transactions, we don't want them to be censored.

3790
03:51:24,676 --> 03:51:25,676
So we attach a little bribe.

3791
03:51:26,676 --> 03:51:31,676
But yeah, Peter is trying to make all these arguments that say basically the
arguments are of the form,

3792
03:51:32,676 --> 03:51:36,676
if a miner is very, very inefficient, shouldn't we cut them like, you know, miner
welfare or something?

3793
03:51:37,676 --> 03:51:38,676
You know, miner EBT card.

3794
03:51:38,676 --> 03:51:47,676
And maybe because we want them to be using a P2 pool or something.

3795
03:51:48,676 --> 03:51:55,676
Because this problem of the concentration in powerful pools is really widespread.

3796
03:51:56,676 --> 03:51:57,676
But I don't have that view at all.

3797
03:51:58,676 --> 03:52:01,676
And my view is that pools have no agency and that if a pool makes a mistake

3798
03:52:02,676 --> 03:52:07,676
and does something financially or economically irresponsible or even culturally
irresponsible,

3799
03:52:08,676 --> 03:52:12,676
that the clients of the pool will just leave.

3800
03:52:13,676 --> 03:52:14,676
So they have a huge amount of leverage.

3801
03:52:15,676 --> 03:52:16,676
They can walk out at any time.

3802
03:52:17,676 --> 03:52:19,676
It's like they live in a country where they can press like a teleport button and
leave.

3803
03:52:20,676 --> 03:52:21,676
Well, no one really likes my analogies.

3804
03:52:22,676 --> 03:52:26,676
But the, you know, they can leave.

3805
03:52:27,676 --> 03:52:31,676
The pools are so vulnerable relative to the hashers.

3806
03:52:31,676 --> 03:52:37,676
And they only exist because the variance reduction makes them very important.

3807
03:52:38,676 --> 03:52:42,676
And it makes it so that they have their brand is the only thing they have.

3808
03:52:43,676 --> 03:52:44,676
And so everyone makes these pie charts.

3809
03:52:45,676 --> 03:52:47,676
It's these darn pie charts, I tell you.

3810
03:52:48,676 --> 03:52:53,676
And it's because just because the data is available, they decide, I'll make a pie
chart.

3811
03:52:54,676 --> 03:52:56,676
And then everyone looks at the pie chart and they think, oh, my gosh, we don't like
that.

3812
03:52:57,676 --> 03:52:59,676
Foundry has such a big slice.

3813
03:52:59,676 --> 03:53:01,676
They say, how can we get rid of that?

3814
03:53:02,676 --> 03:53:10,676
My view is all of that is just a giant misinterpretation of what Bitcoin mining is
and what pools do.

3815
03:53:11,676 --> 03:53:14,676
Pools make it easy for the small guy to mine because they get rid of the variance
reduction.

3816
03:53:15,676 --> 03:53:16,676
Anyway, I don't know.

3817
03:53:17,676 --> 03:53:18,676
He's saying like we should care about.

3818
03:53:19,676 --> 03:53:21,676
We'll do and we'll sacrifice anything.

3819
03:53:22,676 --> 03:53:23,676
We'll sacrifice global scale.

3820
03:53:23,676 --> 03:53:31,676
We'll sacrifice Zcash privacy just so that P2Pool can have an advantage that's not
even real.

3821
03:53:32,676 --> 03:53:42,676
Because it's just as easily like the mining fixed costs are already zero and they
can already switch pools at the drop of a hat.

3822
03:53:43,676 --> 03:53:49,676
So, I mean, P2Pool was interesting, but people don't use it.

3823
03:53:49,676 --> 03:53:52,676
I think we should build some more stuff.

3824
03:53:53,676 --> 03:53:59,676
I think Ben Ark has it right where it's like if there's a problem, people will build
the solution.

3825
03:54:00,676 --> 03:54:05,676
So what we should really do is wait for pools to start misbehaving, which currently
they don't.

3826
03:54:06,676 --> 03:54:10,676
And then we should build stuff to make it very, very easy to just switch pools.

3827
03:54:11,676 --> 03:54:15,676
But I think everyone knows that that would come and that's why pools have always
been very well behaved.

3828
03:54:16,676 --> 03:54:17,676
It's too easy to leave the pool.

3829
03:54:17,676 --> 03:54:25,676
Anyway, this is a rambling answer now, but P2Pool is suggesting that existing pools
are doing something wrong, but they really aren't.

3830
03:54:26,676 --> 03:54:30,676
And that's why people use them because actually they don't do.

3831
03:54:31,676 --> 03:54:34,676
They have yet to do anything inappropriate.

3832
03:54:37,676 --> 03:54:40,676
John and talk about zero confirmation and RBF.

3833
03:54:41,676 --> 03:54:42,676
We messed up.

3834
03:54:43,676 --> 03:54:50,676
How about since we keep talking so much about the block size war and there's been,
what, six years now,

3835
03:54:51,676 --> 03:54:56,676
it would be interesting to discuss the review and sort of in hindsight to see, you
know,

3836
03:54:57,676 --> 03:55:02,676
which arguments were presented by each side and like hindsight bias.

3837
03:55:03,676 --> 03:55:06,676
Like there are a few that the big blockers got right.

3838
03:55:07,676 --> 03:55:14,676
You know, I haven't changed my opinion on the subject, but some arguments ended up
being true in retrospect.

3839
03:55:15,676 --> 03:55:17,676
The problem is they hung everything on a hard fork.

3840
03:55:18,676 --> 03:55:19,676
That was the problem.

3841
03:55:20,676 --> 03:55:27,676
You couldn't have a conversation where we don't have any technology or any research
where we can confidently do a transfer of value during a hard fork.

3842
03:55:28,676 --> 03:55:29,676
Yeah, I'm not looking to redo the debate.

3843
03:55:30,676 --> 03:55:33,676
It's a good proposal, but we'll have to do it next time, guys, because time is up.

3844
03:55:34,676 --> 03:55:40,676
We were deciding back then to scale smart rather than just make blocks bigger.

3845
03:55:41,676 --> 03:55:43,676
And it sounds to me like some people just want to make blocks bigger now.

3846
03:55:44,676 --> 03:55:47,676
Unfortunately, we're not going to make our time slot any bigger, but we could vote
for that.

3847
03:55:52,676 --> 03:55:54,676
Guys, thank you so much for sharing your unpopular opinions.

3848
03:55:55,676 --> 03:55:56,676
This was fun.

3849
03:56:04,676 --> 03:56:07,676
I don't think I would have rambled so much if I knew we were only moments from the
end.

3850
03:56:08,676 --> 03:56:12,676
Well, I mean, I hope someone got something out of this, my reaction to the panel.

3851
03:56:13,676 --> 03:56:15,676
That's interesting that it ate up the entire panel.

3852
03:56:16,676 --> 03:56:17,676
And I don't know.

3853
03:56:21,676 --> 03:56:22,676
I don't know if anything left to be said.

3854
03:56:23,676 --> 03:56:24,676
Is anyone still listening? Probably not, right?

3855
03:56:25,676 --> 03:56:28,676
Who would make it four? I mean, Bitcoin and Sensor routinely go six hours.

3856
03:56:29,676 --> 03:56:32,676
Everyone I know in Bitcoin listens to the whole thing.

3857
03:56:33,676 --> 03:56:34,676
Every time. So I think.

3858
03:56:35,676 --> 03:56:36,676
Who knows?

3859
03:56:37,676 --> 03:56:39,676
Yeah, this was almost four hours long.

3860
03:56:40,676 --> 03:56:41,676
We're about to hit that mark.

3861
03:56:42,676 --> 03:56:50,676
But it's certainly interesting the way that they poked fun at voting and the fact
that they became so loose when it comes to the idea of increasing the block size.

3862
03:56:51,676 --> 03:56:54,676
They're like, yeah, they see it as a compromise.

3863
03:56:57,676 --> 03:56:58,676
Yeah.

3864
03:57:00,676 --> 03:57:02,676
I mean, I wonder about that.

3865
03:57:04,676 --> 03:57:05,676
I do wonder about that.

3866
03:57:06,676 --> 03:57:13,676
So, I mean, Peter Todd, he considers it a block size increase if miners are
persuaded to do it at all, even the tiniest amount.

3867
03:57:14,676 --> 03:57:20,676
So to him, like buying an ASIC is a block size increase or is it?

3868
03:57:21,676 --> 03:57:22,676
I don't know.

3869
03:57:25,676 --> 03:57:31,676
Yeah, I'm also reading the chat right now, and that kind of sucks that I hear
feedback from your speakers.

3870
03:57:31,676 --> 03:57:35,676
I hope I can remove that when I edit the audio.

3871
03:57:36,676 --> 03:57:39,676
But I see that there's someone.

3872
03:57:40,676 --> 03:57:41,676
What's his name?

3873
03:57:42,676 --> 03:57:44,676
Just for the record, it's 2 a.m. here.

3874
03:57:45,676 --> 03:57:46,676
So sorry if I mess up.

3875
03:57:47,676 --> 03:57:49,676
Sanny C.

3876
03:57:50,676 --> 03:57:51,676
Broker.

3877
03:57:52,676 --> 03:57:53,676
Is he broker?

3878
03:57:53,676 --> 03:57:58,676
I don't know, but he's trying to suggest that there are many other proposals in
Bitcoin.

3879
03:57:59,676 --> 03:58:03,676
Other than Drivechains, and they should also be taken into consideration.

3880
03:58:04,676 --> 03:58:08,676
And basically, correct me if I'm wrong, but he's saying that.

3881
03:58:11,676 --> 03:58:20,676
You know, Drivechains is not the ultimate solution to everything, and there is other
stuff like MAST and state chains, L2.

3882
03:58:22,676 --> 03:58:23,676
Payment channels.

3883
03:58:28,676 --> 03:58:31,676
There's also the covenants debate, which is going on.

3884
03:58:32,676 --> 03:58:36,676
We should consider everything, but has this one even been considered?

3885
03:58:37,676 --> 03:58:41,676
What does it mean to have been considered when literally the people up there haven't
read the BIP?

3886
03:58:42,676 --> 03:58:47,676
And the one guy hadn't heard about it until two days before.

3887
03:58:48,676 --> 03:58:50,676
So what does that mean?

3888
03:58:51,676 --> 03:58:57,676
By considered, does he mean that no one should read the BIP and people should just
make up stuff about it on Twitter?

3889
03:58:58,676 --> 03:58:59,676
Is that what he means?

3890
03:59:00,676 --> 03:59:07,676
I get that you're upset that people don't read the BIP, but at the same time you
have budget to hire an intern.

3891
03:59:08,676 --> 03:59:13,676
And you're choosing to post memes as opposed to try to educate people on how this
works.

3892
03:59:14,676 --> 03:59:30,676
Well, like Twitter education, I think is probably, if you've come to Twitter for
education, like there's my own Twitter and there's my own highlights.

3893
03:59:31,676 --> 03:59:35,676
If you click my highlights, I think that you will find a ton there.

3894
03:59:36,676 --> 03:59:39,676
And that's an enormous amount of information.

3895
03:59:40,676 --> 03:59:43,676
And I think there's only like 20 highlighted tweets.

3896
03:59:44,676 --> 03:59:48,676
So you could read them all in half an hour probably.

3897
03:59:49,676 --> 03:59:53,676
Even though some are dense, you could read and consider them all.

3898
03:59:54,676 --> 03:59:58,676
I mean, what did he even list? Masks? What? We already have that.

3899
03:59:59,676 --> 04:00:02,676
Did they not know that's part of taproot payment channels?

3900
04:00:03,676 --> 04:00:05,676
We already have that also. We actually had that before.

3901
04:00:05,676 --> 04:00:09,676
We had T.R. Nolan channels in 2014. Satoshi also invented those.

3902
04:00:10,676 --> 04:00:11,676
So what is this person talking about?

3903
04:00:12,676 --> 04:00:13,676
Can you read the list again?

3904
04:00:14,676 --> 04:00:16,676
What, should we have paid to script hash also?

3905
04:00:17,676 --> 04:00:19,676
I don't think that's in there.

3906
04:00:20,676 --> 04:00:24,676
But anyway, there's also Arthur Pug and I guess I have been ignoring him for a
while.

3907
04:00:25,676 --> 04:00:27,676
He keeps on talking about Truthcoin.

3908
04:00:28,676 --> 04:00:33,676
He says that it has been a ghost town for a while and that you get plenty of
listening time, Paul.

3909
04:00:33,676 --> 04:00:37,676
It would help your case if your Truthcoin ideas were auditable.

3910
04:00:38,676 --> 04:00:40,676
What does that mean, auditable?

3911
04:00:42,676 --> 04:00:44,676
I don't know.

3912
04:00:45,676 --> 04:00:46,676
What's the first thing he said?

3913
04:00:47,676 --> 04:00:50,676
Truthcoin idea, aka Bitcoin Hivemind now.

3914
04:00:53,676 --> 04:00:54,676
What?

3915
04:00:55,676 --> 04:00:57,676
I'm not sure what he means.

3916
04:00:58,676 --> 04:01:11,676
And that he still likes you, but by the straw man, which he hears on both sides,
albeit a bit more from Paul than this time.

3917
04:01:12,676 --> 04:01:13,676
Okay.

3918
04:01:14,676 --> 04:01:15,676
What's the straw man now?

3919
04:01:16,676 --> 04:01:17,676
What's the straw man now?

3920
04:01:20,676 --> 04:01:28,676
That you present when you explain that, for example, this is an emergency and we
need to activate BIP300 faster.

3921
04:01:29,676 --> 04:01:31,676
I mean, sooner than later.

3922
04:01:32,676 --> 04:01:36,676
And maybe that we should not wait four years or whatever for this to happen.

3923
04:01:37,676 --> 04:01:38,676
Yeah, I think we should.

3924
04:01:38,676 --> 04:01:46,676
I mean, well, it's a very old and I think if the best argument is it's a block size
increase because miners have costs.

3925
04:01:47,676 --> 04:01:49,676
And every minor cost is a block size increase.

3926
04:01:50,676 --> 04:01:54,676
So every time the difficulty adjusts upward, that's a block size increase.

3927
04:01:55,676 --> 04:02:01,676
If that's what they think, then the conversation is basically over, I think.

3928
04:02:02,676 --> 04:02:07,676
But yeah, I think it's also like, what if it really is an emergency?

3929
04:02:08,676 --> 04:02:09,676
Like, has anyone thought of that?

3930
04:02:10,676 --> 04:02:13,676
Like, what about all the popularity of Ethereum and its fees?

3931
04:02:14,676 --> 04:02:18,676
And what about the likelihood that someone out there will invent something and
launch it?

3932
04:02:19,676 --> 04:02:20,676
They'll just launch it.

3933
04:02:21,676 --> 04:02:22,676
They're not going to wait.

3934
04:02:23,676 --> 04:02:25,676
So when it was a cool idea, they're not going to wait and do the BIP process.

3935
04:02:26,676 --> 04:02:27,676
Is that what you think they're going to do?

3936
04:02:28,676 --> 04:02:29,676
Of course not.

3937
04:02:29,676 --> 04:02:31,676
And then if they succeed, then the coin will go to zero.

3938
04:02:32,676 --> 04:02:34,676
And what would we do if something was a big success?

3939
04:02:35,676 --> 04:02:41,676
We would just ignore it and we would just say, whatever, infinity over 21 million.

3940
04:02:43,676 --> 04:02:44,676
Right?

3941
04:02:45,676 --> 04:02:46,676
Well, it's not selling money.

3942
04:02:47,676 --> 04:02:48,676
It doesn't have immaculate conception.

3943
04:02:49,676 --> 04:02:50,676
Exactly.

3944
04:02:50,676 --> 04:02:51,676
That's what we would say.

3945
04:02:52,676 --> 04:02:57,676
So if the cyber hornets would just kill each other, we would kill ourselves.

3946
04:03:00,676 --> 04:03:03,676
Well, you have to understand that ideas take time.

3947
04:03:04,676 --> 04:03:05,676
And getting adoption...

3948
04:03:06,676 --> 04:03:07,676
Well, I do.

3949
04:03:07,676 --> 04:03:09,676
But again, you know the idea is from 2015.

3950
04:03:10,676 --> 04:03:14,676
So now I kind of think like, maybe I made a huge mistake by going slow.

3951
04:03:15,676 --> 04:03:16,676
And it was actually me who killed...

3952
04:03:17,676 --> 04:03:19,676
When historians write the book, they're going to say, Paul killed Bitcoin.

3953
04:03:19,676 --> 04:03:21,676
Because he had the winning idea the whole time.

3954
04:03:22,676 --> 04:03:24,676
But he would just kind of shrug and say, whatever.

3955
04:03:25,676 --> 04:03:26,676
He wouldn't do anything about it.

3956
04:03:27,676 --> 04:03:34,676
Now, it sounds as if you're blackmailing everyone with the idea that you might as
well launch a new chain, which deploys Drivechains.

3957
04:03:35,676 --> 04:03:39,676
And you're going to get all that action that Bitcoin is not going to be getting
anymore.

3958
04:03:40,676 --> 04:03:41,676
And that's going to kill it.

3959
04:03:42,676 --> 04:03:43,676
Is that the consequence of events?

3960
04:03:44,676 --> 04:03:45,676
Am I following this correctly?

3961
04:03:45,676 --> 04:03:46,676
No, I'm saying if someone else...

3962
04:03:47,676 --> 04:03:52,676
I'm saying if someone else has a great idea, that's very good.

3963
04:03:53,676 --> 04:03:57,676
If we lived in a world that had BIP300 sidechains, we'd be able to just copy the
idea at any time.

3964
04:03:58,676 --> 04:03:59,676
So it would never have any real teeth.

3965
04:04:00,676 --> 04:04:05,676
But we live instead in a world where, in fact, we have gouged out our own eyes.

3966
04:04:06,676 --> 04:04:09,676
Because we say we won't even look at something somewhere else.

3967
04:04:10,676 --> 04:04:16,676
And they think Giacomo is still living in the 2016 Bitcoin Uncensored world of six
years ago.

3968
04:04:17,676 --> 04:04:19,676
We're saying that, hey, have you heard about databases?

3969
04:04:20,676 --> 04:04:28,676
And he's still saying, ha, ha, ha, I can have a database and I just relabel the
tables and the tabs as blocks or whatever.

3970
04:04:29,676 --> 04:04:31,676
That's what he thinks a smart thought is.

3971
04:04:32,676 --> 04:04:33,676
A thought that's six years old.

3972
04:04:34,676 --> 04:04:37,676
Back when there was no altcoin activity.

3973
04:04:37,676 --> 04:04:38,676
There was one one thousandth of fees.

3974
04:04:39,676 --> 04:04:45,676
Now it's many times, hundreds of times on certain days.

3975
04:04:46,676 --> 04:04:51,676
So it's like an eight orders of magnitude difference.

3976
04:04:52,676 --> 04:04:58,676
But instead, Giacomo has become orders of magnitude less accurate in the things that
he says.

3977
04:04:59,676 --> 04:05:00,676
They used to be accurate.

3978
04:05:01,676 --> 04:05:02,676
Now they're very inaccurate.

3979
04:05:03,676 --> 04:05:04,676
So that's the problem.

3980
04:05:05,676 --> 04:05:06,676
The problem is the people.

3981
04:05:07,676 --> 04:05:12,676
And so if there's a good idea, it will take over and then Bitcoin will go to zero.

3982
04:05:13,676 --> 04:05:14,676
And then historians will be like, wow, that was weird.

3983
04:05:15,676 --> 04:05:25,676
And they'll say, this guy had the idea the whole time that would have stopped, would
have helped make sure that instead of going to zero, it was Bitcoin that went to 20
million dollars a coin.

3984
04:05:26,676 --> 04:05:29,676
And isn't it funny that he was so passive about the idea?

3985
04:05:30,676 --> 04:05:35,676
So I'm not referring to anything that I'm saying if I do nothing, it would kill
Bitcoin.

3986
04:05:35,676 --> 04:05:36,676
I'll be blamed.

3987
04:05:39,676 --> 04:05:43,676
Now, I can see how some people are going to take this section and make memes out of
it.

3988
04:05:44,676 --> 04:05:45,676
Sure.

3989
04:05:45,676 --> 04:05:49,676
And say that you're a megalomaniac and you're thinking that you're the savior or
whatever.

3990
04:05:50,676 --> 04:05:52,676
But before we move on, let me play another ad.

3991
04:05:53,676 --> 04:05:54,676
Just grab a drink, Paul.

3992
04:05:54,676 --> 04:05:55,676
Relax a bit.

3993
04:05:55,676 --> 04:06:01,676
I also want to ask you about stuff that was mentioned during the Peter Todd debate
and then we can wrap this up.

3994
04:06:02,676 --> 04:06:03,676
OK, great.

3995
04:06:05,676 --> 04:06:09,676
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3996
04:06:10,676 --> 04:06:16,676
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3997
04:06:17,676 --> 04:06:32,676
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your computer, buy something sexy for your new girlfriend, book a trip to El
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3998
04:06:32,676 --> 04:06:39,676
Everything is integrated with a familiar shopping experience that doesn't track you
and deletes your data after the order gets completed.

3999
04:06:40,676 --> 04:06:43,676
You also get a 3% discount if you pay in Bitcoin.

4000
04:06:44,676 --> 04:06:50,676
Try Shop and Bit today and use promo code BTCTKVR for a 5 euro discount on your
first order.

4001
04:06:51,676 --> 04:07:00,676
I think we broke the record for the longest ever episode of my podcast and I still
haven't reached the Bitcoin uncensored levels.

4002
04:07:01,676 --> 04:07:05,676
I'm also proud of everyone who has listened this far.

4003
04:07:06,676 --> 04:07:07,676
Hit that like button.

4004
04:07:07,676 --> 04:07:08,676
Subscribe.

4005
04:07:08,676 --> 04:07:11,676
It helps with getting discovered and stuff.

4006
04:07:12,676 --> 04:07:16,676
But Paul, we established that we'd also talk about your debate with Peter Todd.

4007
04:07:17,676 --> 04:07:20,676
And this is the final part of our talk tonight.

4008
04:07:21,676 --> 04:07:26,676
Is there anything that was discussed there that we did not discuss so far?

4009
04:07:27,676 --> 04:07:31,676
Well, as I already mentioned, he didn't mention any of this USF.

4010
04:07:32,676 --> 04:07:34,676
He didn't build his case around this USF thing.

4011
04:07:35,676 --> 04:07:43,676
I think he did mention at one point that there could be like 200 different sidechains and there would be a lot to pay attention to.

4012
04:07:44,676 --> 04:07:48,676
But again, the model does not rely on people's attention.

4013
04:07:49,676 --> 04:07:59,676
It's designed to really, really limit how exposed people's attention is and also to
be fully ignorable so that if you don't care at all, you don't need to.

4014
04:07:59,676 --> 04:08:03,676
So that's a bunch of irrelevant.

4015
04:08:04,676 --> 04:08:10,676
The point is irrelevant, but on that criterion, it does perfectly.

4016
04:08:11,676 --> 04:08:18,676
It does not affect, you know, you don't need to pay attention to any of this.

4017
04:08:19,676 --> 04:08:21,676
You run a fully validating node.

4018
04:08:22,676 --> 04:08:26,676
It's not even the way it was with the old software, but I don't know, maybe it's too
arcane.

4019
04:08:26,676 --> 04:08:32,676
The debate, you know, I don't know, I think there's, you know, I think multiple
people recorded it.

4020
04:08:33,676 --> 04:08:34,676
So I don't know.

4021
04:08:35,676 --> 04:08:36,676
No one has posted it yet, I guess.

4022
04:08:37,676 --> 04:08:39,676
I don't know why not, or maybe it just takes a while.

4023
04:08:40,676 --> 04:08:43,676
I hope that it is posted because I think people will get a lot out of it.

4024
04:08:44,676 --> 04:08:48,676
I think it is.

4025
04:08:49,676 --> 04:08:53,676
The format was just him asking me questions.

4026
04:08:53,676 --> 04:08:57,676
So I thought this was good for TabConf, which is very academic.

4027
04:08:58,676 --> 04:09:03,676
So I thought I will just be passive and I will just let him ask whatever questions
he wants to ask and then I will answer.

4028
04:09:04,676 --> 04:09:06,676
We didn't really talk about any of the benefits.

4029
04:09:07,676 --> 04:09:14,676
We just talked about various complaints Peter Todd had, which revolved around miners
having fixed costs and that this is a block size increase.

4030
04:09:15,676 --> 04:09:36,676
So to him, anything that he designates as a mining fixed cost is a block size
increase because regular users need to run them and if the cost rises too much, they
will all use BIP301 to just shirk the cost.

4031
04:09:37,676 --> 04:09:42,676
So either the costs are small and it's a moot point and no one cares either way.

4032
04:09:42,676 --> 04:09:49,676
Or the costs are very large and then BIP301 sends them to zero.

4033
04:09:51,348 --> 04:09:54,708
So the whole thing, I don't know, the whole thing was nonsense.

4034
04:09:56,268 --> 04:09:59,908
But everyone should listen, don't take my word for it.

4035
04:10:03,268 --> 04:10:03,668
Okay.

4036
04:10:03,708 --> 04:10:08,948
There was also some voting and they decided who won the debate and you

4037
04:10:08,948 --> 04:10:10,268
tweeted something about it.

4038
04:10:11,428 --> 04:10:15,868
Yeah, I would personally, I would like a recount, but I think he did win.

4039
04:10:15,868 --> 04:10:19,468
But what really happened was we started it off, the room was packed.

4040
04:10:19,508 --> 04:10:25,908
Everyone was giving us a lot of attention and they had people vote for and against.

4041
04:10:25,948 --> 04:10:31,068
And it was like four to five against me, but the point is only nine people in

4042
04:10:31,068 --> 04:10:33,028
this giant room voted at all.

4043
04:10:33,748 --> 04:10:42,708
So everyone was like in the camp of like not having an opinion.

4044
04:10:43,708 --> 04:10:47,108
And still at the end of the debate, still, most people didn't vote.

4045
04:10:48,668 --> 04:10:51,948
They voted for being confused and having no opinion.

4046
04:10:52,068 --> 04:11:01,388
So, and I think TAPCOMP is kind of like the creme de la creme of technical talent.

4047
04:11:02,108 --> 04:11:06,068
So I think the appropriate interpretation is just that it's a very confusing issue

4048
04:11:06,068 --> 04:11:11,588
that people, you know, gain some more clarity over.

4049
04:11:12,828 --> 04:11:20,548
And, but yeah, he did, we went from like four or five to like 23.

4050
04:11:20,548 --> 04:11:24,428
And if you, if you're asking me, he got like maybe like 28, 29, but

4051
04:11:24,428 --> 04:11:27,748
they said he got like, well, whatever.

4052
04:11:27,908 --> 04:11:31,308
Some guys shouted 40 or something like moments afterwards.

4053
04:11:31,308 --> 04:11:33,748
I just ran with that, but I think he did get more votes.

4054
04:11:34,348 --> 04:11:37,068
I don't think that, but nothing he said made any sense.

4055
04:11:37,108 --> 04:11:41,508
Oh, so, I mean, maybe it was, I don't think I'm the best debate and I was a

4056
04:11:41,508 --> 04:11:45,748
very, I took a very passive style of just letting him ask whatever he wanted to ask.

4057
04:11:47,388 --> 04:11:50,068
And so of course it looks bad if we just spend the whole thing

4058
04:11:50,068 --> 04:11:51,468
talking about various risks.

4059
04:11:54,268 --> 04:11:56,988
I mean, you weren't, you didn't, you weren't able to attend, so you didn't

4060
04:11:56,988 --> 04:12:07,268
see it and no one has posted a recording yet publicly in the Drivechain, telegram

4061
04:12:07,268 --> 04:12:13,348
group, Michael Tidwell, the organizer of TabConf and the moderator, he posted a

4062
04:12:13,348 --> 04:12:17,868
message that said something like he didn't realize that Peter had not prepared and

4063
04:12:17,868 --> 04:12:25,428
he didn't, he had come not really knowing the details of, you know, what the drive

4064
04:12:25,428 --> 04:12:28,508
chain proposal was and asked me about them on stage.

4065
04:12:29,388 --> 04:12:32,828
So we're getting his like off the cuff.

4066
04:12:33,708 --> 04:12:35,868
So, I mean, what does that mean, Vlad?

4067
04:12:35,868 --> 04:12:40,708
You get on stage, you're on, you take the anti side of a debate, but you don't know

4068
04:12:40,708 --> 04:12:41,228
about it.

4069
04:12:41,268 --> 04:12:44,668
You ask about it and then you say, well, maybe this would be bad.

4070
04:12:47,868 --> 04:12:54,308
You know, like what, you know, like whatever, but, but yeah, it was, I mean, if

4071
04:12:54,308 --> 04:12:56,588
you have any, do you have any more specific questions?

4072
04:12:58,268 --> 04:13:04,468
Well, there is someone in the chat who argues that, I mean, it's nothing new,

4073
04:13:04,468 --> 04:13:09,748
nothing that wasn't discussed before, but it's mostly about Drivechains, enabling

4074
04:13:09,748 --> 04:13:13,068
scams and ICOs and stuff that.

4075
04:13:13,068 --> 04:13:14,348
Yeah, but it doesn't though, of course.

4076
04:13:14,388 --> 04:13:17,268
So that person should understand that they are incorrect.

4077
04:13:20,748 --> 04:13:21,268
Go on.

4078
04:13:21,828 --> 04:13:26,148
Isn't it clear, though, they already, ICOs and things, those can already be done on
any

4079
04:13:26,148 --> 04:13:34,948
chain, including Bitcoin because of ERC, because of like colored coins,
counterparty,

4080
04:13:36,188 --> 04:13:38,428
tarot, tapered assets.

4081
04:13:38,468 --> 04:13:40,988
I think it's been renamed RGB, all that stuff.

4082
04:13:41,908 --> 04:13:48,228
So and what are they called now, BRC20, ordinals, inscriptions.

4083
04:13:48,228 --> 04:13:50,788
So that's already the scams.

4084
04:13:51,508 --> 04:13:55,948
And so there's no marginal advantage from adding the 300 to the scams.

4085
04:13:55,948 --> 04:14:03,028
And in fact, it's all completely in reverse, completely 100% in reverse, because one
way is

4086
04:14:03,028 --> 04:14:08,308
it just moves the scams off of layer one, off of Bitcoin, off of Bitcoin Core, onto
the

4087
04:14:08,468 --> 04:14:10,908
layer two Drivechain, if they happen there instead.

4088
04:14:11,588 --> 04:14:16,588
And this is all besides the bigger picture, which is that by allowing the coins to
travel to a

4089
04:14:16,708 --> 04:14:21,388
different piece of software, it obviates the need for any altcoin.

4090
04:14:21,868 --> 04:14:25,348
So the asset actually has some, must have some new purpose.

4091
04:14:25,388 --> 04:14:27,428
So it literally kills the shit coins off.

4092
04:14:27,428 --> 04:14:33,108
And if the Drivechains don't generate fees, if they aren't really used by actual
people,

4093
04:14:33,708 --> 04:14:38,988
then they will actually literally die off because that is the security model of
drive

4094
04:14:38,988 --> 04:14:41,668
chains that if it doesn't justify the fees, then it gets killed off.

4095
04:14:41,788 --> 04:14:43,108
So that person is wrong.

4096
04:14:45,028 --> 04:14:50,748
If we had Drivechains three years ago, I'm pretty sure that something like Terra
Luna and

4097
04:14:50,748 --> 04:14:54,948
Celsius would have been built as sidechains on top of Bitcoin.

4098
04:14:55,548 --> 04:14:58,108
And of course, there are scams and there are Ponzi's.

4099
04:14:58,108 --> 04:15:02,108
They had, I guess, enough liquidity to bribe the miners to keep going.

4100
04:15:02,628 --> 04:15:09,508
And then when the entire Ponzi collapsed, there would be some news reports saying,
look,

4101
04:15:09,788 --> 04:15:11,308
what happened on Bitcoin.

4102
04:15:12,068 --> 04:15:17,788
And this is a big concern for people who fear that some of these scams are going to
end up

4103
04:15:17,948 --> 04:15:19,468
happening on Bitcoin layers.

4104
04:15:19,788 --> 04:15:24,828
And it's so much more convenient to point your finger at Ethereum, to point your
finger at

4105
04:15:24,828 --> 04:15:26,548
some other chain, which is scammy.

4106
04:15:26,948 --> 04:15:32,708
And these chains have basically a budget for lobbying, for playing this political
game.

4107
04:15:33,348 --> 04:15:34,668
And Bitcoin doesn't.

4108
04:15:35,228 --> 04:15:47,028
And, you know, people like to take this not necessarily innocent, but more like
superior

4109
04:15:47,028 --> 04:15:50,268
stance. They're like, yeah, we are the ivory tower here on Bitcoin.

4110
04:15:50,268 --> 04:15:51,428
We don't have scams.

4111
04:15:51,428 --> 04:15:53,988
And each time there's a scam, it happens somewhere else.

4112
04:15:53,988 --> 04:15:55,188
So you should look elsewhere.

4113
04:15:55,468 --> 04:15:59,228
And now with Drivechains, you're going to have all of this media and governmental

4114
04:15:59,228 --> 04:16:00,788
attention and investigation.

4115
04:16:00,828 --> 04:16:04,108
Yeah, all this relevance and all these users and all of this.

4116
04:16:04,428 --> 04:16:08,428
Well, I mean, I guess I can partially understand where those people are coming from.

4117
04:16:10,228 --> 04:16:15,628
But again, the way I see it is we want we want users and we want the popularity.

4118
04:16:15,908 --> 04:16:19,268
And it was the same thing when Mt.

4119
04:16:19,268 --> 04:16:22,108
Gox was hacked. Everyone thought, oh, Bitcoin, wasn't it hacked?

4120
04:16:22,308 --> 04:16:24,028
People always think that Bitcoin is hacked.

4121
04:16:24,308 --> 04:16:30,188
And I think even with like FTX and stuff, people were saying people called me and
they

4122
04:16:30,188 --> 04:16:31,188
were like, are you OK?

4123
04:16:33,068 --> 04:16:37,348
So even when it's not that we still pay the price as if it were.

4124
04:16:37,468 --> 04:16:41,188
So why don't we just actually make all these all these people Bitcoin users?

4125
04:16:42,228 --> 04:16:47,828
I don't actually think it will move the needle at all in terms of how much blame we

4126
04:16:47,828 --> 04:16:53,108
get. We already get blamed and already there's certain if people aren't willing to
put

4127
04:16:53,108 --> 04:16:58,428
in that much effort, then it's just the news media is going to play a lot.

4128
04:17:00,348 --> 04:17:05,748
I, you know, the news media has always hated Bitcoin and it's it just meant that you

4129
04:17:05,748 --> 04:17:09,588
could buy cheaper coins for longer, accumulate your stack.

4130
04:17:10,908 --> 04:17:14,628
I'm not aware of really anyone who I think treats us fairly.

4131
04:17:15,668 --> 04:17:16,668
So.

4132
04:17:20,388 --> 04:17:26,348
They say, well, yeah, you know, I think any time you have like what would be.

4133
04:17:26,388 --> 04:17:27,388
The.

4134
04:17:28,828 --> 04:17:30,228
The Terra Luna thing.

4135
04:17:31,908 --> 04:17:33,948
A lot of it is like.

4136
04:17:35,348 --> 04:17:43,388
The I think a lot of it is like, well, it's hard to unpack without going into a huge

4137
04:17:43,388 --> 04:17:46,308
long rant, as I often do, but.

4138
04:17:48,628 --> 04:17:52,068
I think the line between.

4139
04:17:57,348 --> 04:18:05,388
Scam busting that we would do on Bitcoin Uncensored a lot, it feels good, but it
doesn't

4140
04:18:05,388 --> 04:18:07,508
actually work. I wish that it did.

4141
04:18:08,428 --> 04:18:13,588
But we did all this scam busting on Bitcoin Uncensored and what actually what became
of

4142
04:18:13,588 --> 04:18:16,268
it? All these people got scammed anyway.

4143
04:18:17,348 --> 04:18:21,108
The scams got, you know, they evolved and became more powerful.

4144
04:18:21,108 --> 04:18:25,908
And so what I, you know, a fool and his money are soon parted.

4145
04:18:27,548 --> 04:18:34,028
And I understand the desire to scam bust, because it's like you see this Bitcoin and

4146
04:18:34,028 --> 04:18:36,148
you like Bitcoin and then you see these other people.

4147
04:18:37,388 --> 04:18:38,388
And it's like.

4148
04:18:39,708 --> 04:18:43,108
This has none of the depth that Bitcoin had and you don't like them getting money.

4149
04:18:43,308 --> 04:18:47,508
But what I think now is that it is fundamentally irrational.

4150
04:18:48,028 --> 04:18:51,588
It is like this social justice warrior thing.

4151
04:18:51,588 --> 04:18:57,388
The idea that you're doing this to help other people is fake and is a self delusion.

4152
04:18:59,388 --> 04:19:06,788
And so the idea that we don't want we don't want these scams is anyone who pays the
fee

4153
04:19:06,788 --> 04:19:09,748
for the blockchain is a user is what I'm driving at.

4154
04:19:09,748 --> 04:19:18,908
So if they are one, one thing is that like the ransomware used to be all Bitcoin
still

4155
04:19:18,908 --> 04:19:24,308
mostly is, but and that was people made a joke and they said that the ransomware is

4156
04:19:24,308 --> 04:19:25,308
Bitcoin's killer app.

4157
04:19:27,428 --> 04:19:31,468
So that is literally like extortion and theft.

4158
04:19:32,908 --> 04:19:35,628
But people said, aha, this is look at how cypherpunk it is.

4159
04:19:36,628 --> 04:19:38,668
So people say, oh, blah, blah, blah.

4160
04:19:38,668 --> 04:19:39,948
I think all that's just cope.

4161
04:19:39,988 --> 04:19:44,508
They just think like, you know, they wish and actually secretly wish that was on
Bitcoin

4162
04:19:44,508 --> 04:19:45,508
or that Ethereum.

4163
04:19:45,508 --> 04:19:47,028
They wish Ethereum had never been invented.

4164
04:19:47,188 --> 04:19:48,948
You know what I mean? If Ethereum had never been invented.

4165
04:19:50,068 --> 04:19:54,748
No one would blame and like imagine BIP300 had come out in like 2013.

4166
04:19:56,148 --> 04:20:00,668
And Ethereum had never been invented, but there was an EVM, what we would call an
EVM

4167
04:20:02,228 --> 04:20:04,028
chain and had Terra Luna or whatever.

4168
04:20:04,068 --> 04:20:06,908
No one would say, oh, it's all because of BIP300.

4169
04:20:08,308 --> 04:20:12,348
No, they would say, why doesn't the media get the facts straight?

4170
04:20:12,868 --> 04:20:14,508
This has nothing to do with Bitcoin at all.

4171
04:20:14,548 --> 04:20:23,068
This is some some people who sold an investment and it was all fake and it was a
Ponzi.

4172
04:20:23,108 --> 04:20:26,348
So so it has nothing to do with BIP300 at all.

4173
04:20:26,868 --> 04:20:30,828
The fact that it was invented on Ethereum first is just because we didn't get our
side

4174
04:20:30,828 --> 04:20:36,068
chains back together in time. And it would be Bitcoin if we if we had.

4175
04:20:36,068 --> 04:20:42,428
And if we instead we separate, it will just be, you know, and I think this is all
cope

4176
04:20:42,428 --> 04:20:47,868
to the idea that one chain is pristine and the other is a debt of thieves.

4177
04:20:48,948 --> 04:20:50,068
One has users.

4178
04:20:52,148 --> 04:20:57,508
There's also the statist argument, right, which says that you want you don't want
the

4179
04:20:57,508 --> 04:21:02,588
police and investigations to come for the miners, to come for the developers, to
come

4180
04:21:02,708 --> 04:21:04,668
for people who are into Bitcoin.

4181
04:21:04,668 --> 04:21:07,508
And it also goes back to this pristine argument.

4182
04:21:07,868 --> 04:21:12,988
But let's say that Terra Luna happened on an EVM sidechain of Bitcoin.

4183
04:21:13,668 --> 04:21:19,388
OK. Would the police not try to recover the funds from the miners that collected
fees

4184
04:21:19,388 --> 04:21:20,308
from Terra Luna?

4185
04:21:21,988 --> 04:21:24,068
But what exactly would they want them to do?

4186
04:21:24,108 --> 04:21:29,628
They would the police would build a transaction that has a TXID that pays someone on
L1.

4187
04:21:30,548 --> 04:21:36,428
So this is what I'm saying is the miners have a strict and carefully sanitized job
of

4188
04:21:36,428 --> 04:21:41,428
just the sidechain reports a hash and then they transcribe it.

4189
04:21:42,708 --> 04:21:45,388
L2 to L1, one hash every three months.

4190
04:21:46,668 --> 04:21:52,108
So what they would really do is they would go to the L2 and they would say reorg the

4191
04:21:52,148 --> 04:21:53,308
chain or whatever.

4192
04:21:53,308 --> 04:21:57,948
And then but really they would do nothing because I think the answer is no.

4193
04:21:59,308 --> 04:22:02,988
They would try to find if they could find it, they need jurisdiction, of course, if
they

4194
04:22:02,988 --> 04:22:07,988
could find a person, if they could find a human being that they could like arrest
and put

4195
04:22:07,988 --> 04:22:14,548
in jail and say, we know you stole this money, send the money back and make this
person

4196
04:22:14,548 --> 04:22:15,828
whole, they would probably do that.

4197
04:22:15,908 --> 04:22:17,188
But otherwise, I don't think they would.

4198
04:22:18,188 --> 04:22:22,388
In a way, though, it's sad that they don't, because, again, it's like as we get more

4199
04:22:22,388 --> 04:22:26,988
popular and we get more users, this type of thing would happen because but the fact
that

4200
04:22:26,988 --> 04:22:31,388
it's not even happening because those users are on Ethereum, it's just saying this
is

4201
04:22:31,388 --> 04:22:32,868
it's just underlining how.

4202
04:22:35,028 --> 04:22:43,268
That we have failed to acquire users and that the if we continue on that path for
long

4203
04:22:43,268 --> 04:22:46,348
enough, it will doom the coin is going to zero.

4204
04:22:47,828 --> 04:22:55,028
I don't like it when you're this gloomy and you say that we're going to zero, if we

4205
04:22:55,028 --> 04:22:59,148
wait long enough, because in the long run, I think there are only one coin will win.

4206
04:22:59,188 --> 04:23:00,228
That's just my point of view.

4207
04:23:00,948 --> 04:23:02,788
I don't see why there's a need for a second coin.

4208
04:23:02,788 --> 04:23:06,068
Like I agree with Michael Saylor that there is no second best.

4209
04:23:06,548 --> 04:23:11,148
The problem is who will be the first best will be whoever gets to eight billion
users

4210
04:23:11,148 --> 04:23:11,748
the fastest.

4211
04:23:12,068 --> 04:23:18,068
Well, it cannot go to zero because I will keep on buying, OK, are you sure that you

4212
04:23:18,068 --> 04:23:18,868
really will, though?

4213
04:23:22,108 --> 04:23:24,748
What if there's something that's really close, but just different?

4214
04:23:26,508 --> 04:23:29,348
Well, maybe that I want to own all 21 million coins.

4215
04:23:29,828 --> 04:23:30,748
Yeah, it's really.

4216
04:23:33,308 --> 04:23:34,988
After you do, what would the price be?

4217
04:23:34,988 --> 04:23:40,108
As much as I ask for it, yeah, but you have to find someone else who will pay, of
course.

4218
04:23:40,668 --> 04:23:43,948
Who's going to buy a network where who's going to buy a coin that where you own 100

4219
04:23:43,948 --> 04:23:44,548
percent of the coins?

4220
04:23:45,748 --> 04:23:46,788
Well, that depends.

4221
04:23:48,228 --> 04:23:49,508
It's like an NFT, right?

4222
04:23:50,188 --> 04:23:51,108
I'm the issuer.

4223
04:23:52,708 --> 04:23:54,348
Each one has a history.

4224
04:23:55,468 --> 04:23:55,988
Yes.

4225
04:23:58,028 --> 04:23:59,748
So but OK, fair enough, then.

4226
04:23:59,748 --> 04:24:03,828
If we continue on this road long enough, then Bitcoin will just become an NFT there.

4227
04:24:03,828 --> 04:24:04,508
Are you happy now?

4228
04:24:04,908 --> 04:24:05,908
It is an NFT.

4229
04:24:07,388 --> 04:24:08,308
Well, that's the problem.

4230
04:24:08,308 --> 04:24:12,468
People don't appreciate it for its properties and they just think we need to just
keep

4231
04:24:12,468 --> 04:24:16,388
cheering Bitcoin on and repeating the word Bitcoin over and over again and
screeching it

4232
04:24:16,388 --> 04:24:19,108
on Twitter and on a podcast.

4233
04:24:20,148 --> 04:24:24,788
Mind virus, Bitcoin, they don't realize that it actually has properties, that it's

4234
04:24:25,348 --> 04:24:30,148
because everyone has been trained by the block size war and by, you know, sailor and
these

4235
04:24:30,148 --> 04:24:33,588
other people to say that it has it has no it has no use.

4236
04:24:33,628 --> 04:24:34,708
It has no properties.

4237
04:24:35,548 --> 04:24:38,028
It has no function.

4238
04:24:38,068 --> 04:24:39,828
It's just a thing you buy and sell.

4239
04:24:40,068 --> 04:24:41,028
It's only a brand.

4240
04:24:41,068 --> 04:24:46,028
So, yeah, they have been trained to think of it as an NFT, and they don't really

4241
04:24:46,028 --> 04:24:47,948
understand why it has value.

4242
04:24:47,948 --> 04:24:48,948
And that's the problem.

4243
04:24:48,948 --> 04:24:49,948
And that's the problem.

4244
04:24:50,228 --> 04:24:56,308
To think of it as an NFT, and they don't really understand why it has value,
independent

4245
04:24:56,308 --> 04:24:58,068
of how many other people.

4246
04:25:00,268 --> 04:25:00,988
Are aware of it.

4247
04:25:04,188 --> 04:25:09,028
Yeah, I was also reading the chat, I see that some people are commenting on stuff
that we

4248
04:25:09,028 --> 04:25:15,388
are saying, and I agree to some degree, we have to realize that this is a cypherpunk

4249
04:25:15,388 --> 04:25:21,028
invention, you know, and if we keep on asking permission from others and waiting for
the

4250
04:25:21,028 --> 04:25:27,308
state to approve of what we're doing, I mean, would Bitcoin exist at all if Satoshi
had

4251
04:25:27,308 --> 04:25:29,708
this type of mindset that we need to be cautious?

4252
04:25:29,708 --> 04:25:30,908
No, it certainly would not.

4253
04:25:30,908 --> 04:25:36,748
If he if he if he had been waiting for everyone at Baltic Honeybradger to agree with
him,

4254
04:25:36,748 --> 04:25:37,948
then it would never have existed.

4255
04:25:37,948 --> 04:25:42,748
Because think about how many people, myself included, what the first several times I
heard

4256
04:25:42,748 --> 04:25:45,868
about Bitcoin, I thought this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in my entire
life.

4257
04:25:45,868 --> 04:25:50,348
So that's that's Giacomo Zucco, who still hasn't read the bit.

4258
04:25:52,108 --> 04:25:59,548
And it's also John Carvalho saying that because he thinks the peg won't hold,
consenting

4259
04:25:59,548 --> 04:26:04,708
adults should not be free to, and he has no idea what he's talking about, and Peter
Todd

4260
04:26:04,708 --> 04:26:09,348
saying it's a block size increase and whatever, it's all of that is absurd nonsense.

4261
04:26:09,348 --> 04:26:14,108
And people people will, I think, look back on this and they'll say, man, that was
weird

4262
04:26:14,108 --> 04:26:17,308
how that simple idea was so misunderstood at the time.

4263
04:26:19,028 --> 04:26:20,908
It would be exactly the same as Bitcoin.

4264
04:26:21,468 --> 04:26:24,988
So, yeah, certainly Satoshi should not wait, should never wait.

4265
04:26:24,988 --> 04:26:27,988
It's the opposite of what Giacomo Zucco said about, oh, let's wait.

4266
04:26:28,828 --> 04:26:31,028
I don't I think that's a mistake.

4267
04:26:31,748 --> 04:26:37,508
That's probably what you know, that is what the people at Ethereum and Bitcoin Cash,
that

4268
04:26:37,508 --> 04:26:40,148
is what they want BTC to do.

4269
04:26:42,468 --> 04:26:47,548
I personally agree with that, but when you get to this point where you have half a
trillion

4270
04:26:47,548 --> 04:26:53,108
dollars and there are a lot of people who depend on that, we've made it to half a
trillion.

4271
04:26:54,148 --> 04:26:58,628
You know. Why change from being.

4272
04:27:00,508 --> 04:27:03,548
Smart to being dumb, because it's not that.

4273
04:27:04,068 --> 04:27:06,348
Well, you know, how many soft forks did we do?

4274
04:27:07,868 --> 04:27:17,668
In the big run up to 2017, from 2009 to 2017, there were enormous, I don't know how
many

4275
04:27:18,228 --> 04:27:25,268
more than 10. And a soft fork is something where not everyone needs to update, just
a few

4276
04:27:25,268 --> 04:27:29,588
people. That's who ever wants to use the feature, and that's what this is.

4277
04:27:29,588 --> 04:27:34,428
So we're doing the new thing now where, you know, remember what Gavin used to have
in

4278
04:27:34,428 --> 04:27:37,628
Andreessen, never invest more than you can afford to lose.

4279
04:27:37,628 --> 04:27:39,228
This project is an experiment.

4280
04:27:40,948 --> 04:27:44,908
So we're doing the opposite in many ways of what we did that made us a success.

4281
04:27:45,068 --> 04:27:47,548
We're saying, oh, the success is inevitable.

4282
04:27:48,148 --> 04:27:52,988
We don't need to focus on making the coin useful.

4283
04:27:53,788 --> 04:27:56,868
Making the coin useful, we don't need to.

4284
04:27:59,908 --> 04:28:05,188
You know, we don't we just buy and take out a mortgage on your house and invest
everything

4285
04:28:05,188 --> 04:28:07,348
you have. That's what we say now.

4286
04:28:08,828 --> 04:28:14,988
We say the opposite of what we said, so we are doing a great job, I think, of, you
know.

4287
04:28:18,548 --> 04:28:20,268
Challenging what made it great.

4288
04:28:20,788 --> 04:28:26,068
Now, it's interesting that you brought up Gavin Andreessen, who is basically a
villain in

4289
04:28:26,068 --> 04:28:31,988
the Bitcoin space nowadays, mostly for acknowledging Craig Wright and refusing to

4290
04:28:31,988 --> 04:28:34,628
withdraw his support for his previous claim.

4291
04:28:35,708 --> 04:28:41,148
And yeah, I know you come from a different era and at the time, Gavin was a big
figure and

4292
04:28:41,148 --> 04:28:47,068
everyone was looking up to him and he was working towards getting more developers to
work

4293
04:28:47,108 --> 04:28:49,988
on Bitcoin and stuff like that.

4294
04:28:50,348 --> 04:28:58,708
OK, but he was also partially wrong about BIP 101, which was his proposal to, I
think it

4295
04:28:58,708 --> 04:29:03,948
was to increase the to double the block size every couple of years and follow what
he

4296
04:29:03,948 --> 04:29:05,628
thought was going to be Moore's law.

4297
04:29:05,988 --> 04:29:08,268
And that one did not get much traction.

4298
04:29:08,268 --> 04:29:15,068
And he was partially wrong, at least in the short to midterm, about Bitcoin.

4299
04:29:16,068 --> 04:29:24,028
He did not foresee like he was wrong about all kinds of things, of course, and.

4300
04:29:25,908 --> 04:29:33,428
Well, he was wrong about all kinds of things, but he I'm just saying that that
attitude was

4301
04:29:33,428 --> 04:29:36,828
representative when he said, like, don't invest more than you can afford to lose.

4302
04:29:36,828 --> 04:29:37,988
This is still an experiment.

4303
04:29:38,628 --> 04:29:39,908
That was what most people said.

4304
04:29:40,508 --> 04:29:43,868
Some people did not, like, ironically, Roger Ver or some people were like, oh, like,
I

4305
04:29:43,868 --> 04:29:49,228
remember Eric Voorhees, Eric Voorhees was like, when are you going to have people
ask

4306
04:29:49,228 --> 04:29:51,028
him, when are you going to cash out all of your Bitcoin?

4307
04:29:51,068 --> 04:29:57,988
And he said. I did cash out into Bitcoin and everyone would like clap and.

4308
04:29:59,548 --> 04:30:01,788
You remember that? That was like 2012 or something.

4309
04:30:02,388 --> 04:30:03,748
No, I'm not that OG.

4310
04:30:04,708 --> 04:30:11,948
I was 20 years old in 2012, trying to get laid in university like every 20 year old.

4311
04:30:14,628 --> 04:30:22,268
Fair enough, but I'm just saying that it was some people were went all in and there
was

4312
04:30:22,268 --> 04:30:23,828
like a Michael Saylor or whatever.

4313
04:30:24,308 --> 04:30:29,108
And but I don't think anyone took its success for granted.

4314
04:30:29,828 --> 04:30:31,068
Everyone saw the potential.

4315
04:30:31,348 --> 04:30:35,028
But, you know, like Roger Ver would be out there every day trying to, like, get more

4316
04:30:35,028 --> 04:30:41,388
merchants to accept Bitcoin, you know, you had BitPay, the big companies were like
there

4317
04:30:41,388 --> 04:30:42,588
to do something.

4318
04:30:42,748 --> 04:30:49,068
And by big companies, I mean, they were really small, but they had a mailing address
or

4319
04:30:49,068 --> 04:30:55,188
something. So, yeah, and the Blockstream was created to do this sidechains idea.

4320
04:30:56,188 --> 04:30:57,588
2014, 2015.

4321
04:31:00,108 --> 04:31:06,588
It's interesting that I think only Adam Backwith, the CEO of Blockstream right now,
is

4322
04:31:06,588 --> 04:31:12,108
the he's the only one in the company that agrees with your proposal for Drivechains.

4323
04:31:12,428 --> 04:31:17,748
And I see everyone else, including I think I had a very long talk with Matthew
Heywood,

4324
04:31:17,748 --> 04:31:23,748
and he thinks I debate in bad faith and I'm blinded by, I don't know, I'm blinded by

4325
04:31:23,748 --> 04:31:27,588
this idea of merge mining and he thinks it's a very bad idea.

4326
04:31:28,788 --> 04:31:36,348
But everyone seems so passionately against it for some reason, as if either they're

4327
04:31:36,348 --> 04:31:41,748
bitter that they could not pull it off and they don't want someone else to do it or
else

4328
04:31:41,748 --> 04:31:48,788
they they think that Liquid is so good and it should not be improved upon or at
least

4329
04:31:48,788 --> 04:31:50,548
there should not be competition for it.

4330
04:31:50,548 --> 04:31:54,628
I guess some people's lives depend on Liquid, you know?

4331
04:31:55,828 --> 04:31:56,348
Sorry, what?

4332
04:31:58,548 --> 04:31:59,868
What? I didn't hear what you said.

4333
04:32:00,188 --> 04:32:03,588
Some people's livelihoods, you know, they make a living working.

4334
04:32:03,588 --> 04:32:05,708
Yes, of course. They're the competition.

4335
04:32:06,068 --> 04:32:11,788
So it's highly improper to ask Blockstream or even people from Lightning for their

4336
04:32:11,788 --> 04:32:17,348
opinion. Nonetheless, though, I have most of the actually elite people.

4337
04:32:17,348 --> 04:32:23,588
I have some kind of endorsement from them on LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends, so it's
the

4338
04:32:23,588 --> 04:32:27,148
people at the top who are so smart and they have so much prestige that they know
they'll

4339
04:32:27,148 --> 04:32:30,828
be safe even after this idea wins.

4340
04:32:31,988 --> 04:32:34,548
Yeah, but you know, this is not about people.

4341
04:32:34,948 --> 04:32:38,868
I mean, of course, Bitcoin is a network that's supposed to be used by people, but
it's not

4342
04:32:38,868 --> 04:32:41,388
about endorsements or appeal to authority.

4343
04:32:41,388 --> 04:32:44,268
It's about code and code review and.

4344
04:32:44,268 --> 04:32:50,948
As far as I know, you hired Luke Junior to formalize your proposal into a better
form

4345
04:32:50,948 --> 04:32:52,828
that's going to be discussed as a BIP.

4346
04:32:53,468 --> 04:32:59,828
Yes, we have software already that we have software, but we don't have a pull
request, has

4347
04:32:59,828 --> 04:33:01,468
various forms and things.

4348
04:33:02,268 --> 04:33:04,508
So it has various like conventions and.

4349
04:33:06,748 --> 04:33:10,828
We are going to do like translate what we had done into what would be good for
Bitcoin

4350
04:33:10,828 --> 04:33:15,068
core. To make it easier to review and these other things like that, but no, you're

4351
04:33:15,068 --> 04:33:19,468
completely right. It's extremely inappropriate for people to ask someone who works
on the

4352
04:33:20,108 --> 04:33:23,308
liquid what they think, you know, that's not peer review at all.

4353
04:33:23,468 --> 04:33:27,708
That's just corruption and that's, you know, impropriety.

4354
04:33:28,868 --> 04:33:34,828
It would be literally like asking, you know, Donald Trump what he thinks of whatever

4355
04:33:34,828 --> 04:33:36,308
birdies, Joe Biden or something.

4356
04:33:36,348 --> 04:33:40,708
It's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
it's it's it's

4357
04:33:40,708 --> 04:33:43,748
it's ridiculous or asking Zelensky what he thinks of Putin.

4358
04:33:45,428 --> 04:33:51,028
So it's, you know, like people should do that because in the professions, there's so
much

4359
04:33:51,028 --> 04:33:55,708
specialization, but people should just keep in mind that like.

4360
04:33:56,868 --> 04:34:01,188
So like what did Haywood have anything to actually say about the BIP that he didn't
like?

4361
04:34:01,308 --> 04:34:02,468
He doesn't like merge mining.

4362
04:34:03,268 --> 04:34:09,468
Well, he doubled down on the idea of minor stealing and the fact that you should not
give

4363
04:34:09,468 --> 04:34:15,948
more power to the miners because most likely it's the end user chooses if they wish
to eat at

4364
04:34:15,948 --> 04:34:16,908
that restaurant or not.

4365
04:34:19,668 --> 04:34:25,588
Of course, but there's all of that concern, which I expressed earlier about the end
user

4366
04:34:25,588 --> 04:34:29,788
should be free to decide what security model they want.

4367
04:34:30,708 --> 04:34:32,228
Many of them already have.

4368
04:34:32,588 --> 04:34:36,588
They will switch to whatever Ethereum or Solana if it has something that they want.

4369
04:34:37,308 --> 04:34:41,108
We're not libertarians here, Paul, and we haven't been for a long time.

4370
04:34:41,908 --> 04:34:43,028
Yeah, right.

4371
04:34:43,028 --> 04:34:46,668
So they said raise your hand if you have Bitcoin, raise your hand if you own
Ethereum and like 80

4372
04:34:46,668 --> 04:34:51,588
percent of the room raised their hand and they were like people on stage were
shocked.

4373
04:34:51,588 --> 04:34:52,348
But it's like.

4374
04:34:52,630 --> 04:34:52,710
Regular people will do whatever they want to do.

4375
04:34:52,750 --> 04:34:55,150
They won't do what Peter Todd wants them to do.

4376
04:34:55,830 --> 04:34:56,630
It's very naive.

4377
04:34:56,950 --> 04:35:07,150
So it's the miners can steal is by far the worst argument because, of course, the
miners can more easily steal from the Lightning Network than they can from
Drivechain.

4378
04:35:07,150 --> 04:35:11,630
People push back on this because of how anti-lightning it is, but not because
they've thought about it.

4379
04:35:11,630 --> 04:35:30,630
So the, you know, like the miners can steal is terrible, not only because it's it's
just literally missing the point of the whole why they would not, which is that it
would end the fees, which will be many times what they're going to be getting on L1.

4380
04:35:30,630 --> 04:35:39,630
But most important of all, and this is the point is the end user to decide if they
want to spend their they want to sell their Bitcoin for cash, that's up to them.

4381
04:35:40,310 --> 04:35:44,830
And if they want to sell their Bitcoin and buy it for cash, that's up to them.

4382
04:35:45,630 --> 04:35:49,270
And if they want to sell their Bitcoin and buy an altcoin, then that's up to them.

4383
04:35:49,270 --> 04:35:50,110
And if they want.

4384
04:35:50,110 --> 04:35:53,310
So if that's all that you have to say, then he just he hates the user.

4385
04:35:53,310 --> 04:35:54,590
He hates Opensource.

4386
04:35:54,590 --> 04:35:55,710
He hates creativity.

4387
04:35:55,750 --> 04:35:58,510
He hates freedom and he hates Bitcoin.

4388
04:36:00,230 --> 04:36:02,110
Because now there is only Bitcoin.

4389
04:36:02,110 --> 04:36:14,270
Right. You're supposed to ignore everything else.

4390
04:36:14,270 --> 04:36:15,030
It's a shit coin.

4391
04:36:15,030 --> 04:36:16,030
It's not sound money.

4392
04:36:16,030 --> 04:36:17,030
Yeah.

4393
04:36:17,030 --> 04:36:30,030
But then the same people love the same people love their plan with push comes to
shove those people same plan is custodial lightning for the world.

4394
04:36:30,310 --> 04:36:32,310
So it's absurd.

4395
04:36:32,310 --> 04:36:34,030
It's literally absurd.

4396
04:36:34,030 --> 04:36:37,950
No, there's a lot of money to be made in that.

4397
04:36:37,950 --> 04:36:43,910
So it's often a nefarious combination of people's stock options or whatever.

4398
04:36:43,910 --> 04:36:48,310
And it's pure corruption, basically.

4399
04:36:48,310 --> 04:36:52,630
And it's not in the interest of the end user, which is the most important thing.

4400
04:36:53,030 --> 04:37:01,510
The reply to the whole custodial lightning situation is that, well, they can always
spin up a node because it's permissionless and they can transfer over to their own
channel.

4401
04:37:02,030 --> 04:37:06,230
Yeah, but we can still do that in the in my paradigm.

4402
04:37:06,990 --> 04:37:11,310
They can spin up a node, they can spin up to a channel, they could settle the coins
back to L1.

4403
04:37:11,310 --> 04:37:15,150
They have a cheap L1 node and maybe an expensive L2 node.

4404
04:37:16,510 --> 04:37:18,310
But really not that expensive, honestly.

4405
04:37:18,990 --> 04:37:21,870
And again, it's up to the end user to decide.

4406
04:37:22,710 --> 04:37:24,390
So that's all that they have.

4407
04:37:25,310 --> 04:37:36,790
Then you see, you know, the line between good and evil is drawn kind of, you know,
you can see how it's drawn.

4408
04:37:39,070 --> 04:37:42,230
Paul, there's a prophecy here of which you're not even aware.

4409
04:37:42,950 --> 04:37:49,070
It was in January of 2019 when I did the first episode of this podcast.

4410
04:37:49,590 --> 04:37:56,510
And I interviewed a guy whose name is Donald McIntyre, and he basically foretold
that this moment would come.

4411
04:37:56,510 --> 04:38:05,950
He said, one day, maybe you're going to be smart enough and capable of debating the
academic Paul Sztorc, who proposes Drivechains and has this crazy idea.

4412
04:38:06,670 --> 04:38:11,310
And it seems like, of course, we had an interview.

4413
04:38:11,350 --> 04:38:15,390
We did the first one two years ago, and then we did another one last month.

4414
04:38:15,390 --> 04:38:19,110
And now we're doing another, which turned out to be the longest.

4415
04:38:20,270 --> 04:38:23,910
My question for you right now is, why are you pushing harder now?

4416
04:38:24,030 --> 04:38:36,190
Because I remember two years ago when we were discussing, your attitude was a bit
defeatist in the sense that you're basically like, maybe that somebody else will be
able to take my ideas and push them harder.

4417
04:38:36,750 --> 04:38:44,830
Now you decided last year to create a company and try to push Drivechains as a
solution for scaling.

4418
04:38:45,230 --> 04:38:56,390
Why now? Why now when the culture is different, when some people cheer for
ossification, when Michael Saylor doesn't like privacy, when you have the cyber
hornets?

4419
04:38:56,790 --> 04:39:14,190
These are the reasons, though, it's because I think that actually the the cult and
it like people are just people really are, are worse, like, you know, like, I
remember, like talking to Giacomo Zucco in 2017.

4420
04:39:15,710 --> 04:39:23,710
And, you know, we're talking about like physics and stuff really seemed like a smart
guy, but now and it's still his meme craft is pretty good.

4421
04:39:26,470 --> 04:39:34,310
But yeah, like, so one of the things is I learned more about lightning, and that I
learned that is probably dead and technically, completely.

4422
04:39:34,870 --> 04:39:41,630
And that not only that, but most of the experts also agree with that, and they just
go along with it to kind of collect money.

4423
04:39:42,430 --> 04:39:55,510
And it's kind of no different than what, you know, I like what some would say that
the Federal Reserve does that with economics where they hire people and people are
kind of like,

4424
04:39:56,470 --> 04:40:01,070
What is the point of all this? This is just we're just making reports about nothing.

4425
04:40:02,070 --> 04:40:11,870
But it's a big and so I kind of think that it's actually Bitcoin is already in
danger of becoming useless and even replaced by something.

4426
04:40:12,830 --> 04:40:14,750
And I think that

4427
04:40:15,750 --> 04:40:22,430
Yeah, like not only it's like the elite people in lightning know, and then it was
the thing that people wouldn't talk about.

4428
04:40:23,310 --> 04:40:29,150
So it's like the most important problem in any organization is the one that you're
not allowed to talk about.

4429
04:40:30,070 --> 04:40:35,430
And then the now people are starting to talk about it a little.

4430
04:40:36,590 --> 04:40:38,350
And so I kind of think

4431
04:40:38,350 --> 04:40:40,990
I mean, just the other ideas are just so bad.

4432
04:40:41,030 --> 04:40:44,430
And we just everyone's people are lying to themselves so much.

4433
04:40:44,470 --> 04:40:50,710
And it's honestly, I think the whole community is going to suffer some kind of
humiliation of one kind or another.

4434
04:40:51,350 --> 04:40:55,030
Like, why do people even care about Fediment, which is just

4435
04:40:57,510 --> 04:40:59,030
kind of everyone's just going to get rug pulled.

4436
04:40:59,550 --> 04:41:07,150
You know, like, like ARK is a good idea, but the liquidity and the complexity and it
requires turns out it requires 119 or something else.

4437
04:41:07,150 --> 04:41:17,030
So when are we going to get that I've asked people at TAPCOMP, I asked various
people for their opinion, advisory opinion, hey, what how wouldn't how quickly can
we do the soft fork anyway?

4438
04:41:18,470 --> 04:41:21,070
The consensus answer is something like three years.

4439
04:41:21,630 --> 04:41:30,630
Because we schedule them like to be merged to like six months out, and then they
don't activate for six months, at least, and there's nothing on the table.

4440
04:41:30,670 --> 04:41:35,710
So it would be many months of discussion first.

4441
04:41:35,710 --> 04:41:43,590
And so there's like, it's like a minimum two years and then plus another year
because of just so three years.

4442
04:41:44,430 --> 04:41:49,270
And just think of, you know, what these things that people say are, they're just
just listen to them.

4443
04:41:51,470 --> 04:41:54,910
You know, I don't know, like, some of it is unspeakable.

4444
04:41:54,910 --> 04:41:55,790
It's so absurd.

4445
04:41:55,830 --> 04:42:01,750
But like, yeah, certain things said by what you might think we call cultural
leaders.

4446
04:42:01,750 --> 04:42:04,950
We'll just think of like people saying this is this idea of shitcoins on Bitcoin.

4447
04:42:04,990 --> 04:42:06,510
It's like, not as sure.

4448
04:42:06,510 --> 04:42:12,510
And then Michael Saylor told me we could put Zcash on like a layer three lightning
supernode or something.

4449
04:42:12,510 --> 04:42:25,910
And I was like, what, you know, so it's kind of like, I think, you know, I think
it's a good idea.

4450
04:42:26,910 --> 04:42:51,990
Like, what, you know, so it's kind of like, I think the right time to push now is
because, like, very soon, it may be actually too late, the ossification people will
win and then there will be another civil war.

4451
04:42:52,990 --> 04:43:09,990
Because the ossification, the premature ossification, KYC, US dollar, USDT over
lightning, like the fact that Michael Saylor doesn't already realize that you can
move US dollars over lightning.

4452
04:43:10,990 --> 04:43:23,990
And the fact that there's people put out, did Spiral or someone put out like a
grant, like a 10 Bitcoin grant, or something, or one Bitcoin grant, or maybe a $1
grant, I don't even know.

4453
04:43:23,990 --> 04:43:36,990
But there's some big grant for like, if you can move US dollars over lightning, but
I mean, whatever, plenty of people, including me, in 2013, and Arthur Hayes, plenty
of people know how to do that.

4454
04:43:37,990 --> 04:43:39,990
Just call it synthetic, synthetic dollar.

4455
04:43:40,990 --> 04:43:42,990
So it's already possible.

4456
04:43:42,990 --> 04:44:10,990
So I think we have rotated in Bitcoin away from a culture that's dead into just
rewarding people who go along with the predictable BS and punishing people who
express any kind of critique or dissatisfaction.

4457
04:44:12,990 --> 04:44:35,990
It's very telling that the only way you could have, you have to produce something
like, it has to be an idea as good as ARK from someone who was a Blockstream
associate, like someone who had broken the lightning network before.

4458
04:44:36,990 --> 04:44:38,990
And it has to be really far away.

4459
04:44:39,990 --> 04:44:40,990
Years away.

4460
04:44:44,990 --> 04:44:49,990
Yeah, I think that, and then of course, the growth of Ethereum, you know, Ethereum
has grown enormously.

4461
04:44:51,990 --> 04:44:59,990
The fact that Ethereum cares about users, where we have disdain and contempt for the
users.

4462
04:45:00,990 --> 04:45:18,990
So, yeah, I think that it's not going to be like, you know, like, I honestly think
the Visigoths are kind of at the gate, to some extent, and everyone just thinks, oh,
Rome will never fall because the city has stood for 1000 years and whatever.

4463
04:45:19,990 --> 04:45:21,990
You know, I hope that I'm mistaken about that.

4464
04:45:23,990 --> 04:45:37,990
But yeah, I think something should be done to shake things up a little bit,
especially a completely uncontroversial idea that is just counting to 13,000 on L1
that has no downsides is completely reversible.

4465
04:45:37,990 --> 04:45:39,990
It does not pose any risk or even change anything.

4466
04:45:39,990 --> 04:45:42,990
It's just the same mining dynamics that have always existed.

4467
04:45:43,990 --> 04:45:44,990
So it's all ridiculous.

4468
04:45:45,990 --> 04:45:54,990
Well, there's someone in the chat who says, is there a better threshold for miners
to reduce dangerous Drivechains being created and incentivize better experiments?

4469
04:45:55,990 --> 04:45:59,990
Yes, it's in the 2016 presentation, that minor sidechain privatization.

4470
04:46:00,990 --> 04:46:04,990
That's when I had these thoughts and made slides and delivered a presentation that
long ago.

4471
04:46:06,990 --> 04:46:10,990
They have an incentive naturally to maximize the market exchange rate of the coin.

4472
04:46:11,990 --> 04:46:12,990
That is the criterion.

4473
04:46:15,990 --> 04:46:19,990
If we don't pick that criterion, we're not going to be able to maximize the market
exchange rate of the coin.

4474
04:46:20,990 --> 04:46:24,990
And that's why we're not going to be able to maximize the market exchange rate of
the coin.

4475
04:46:25,990 --> 04:46:30,990
They have an incentive naturally to maximize the market exchange rate of the coin
and the transaction fees.

4476
04:46:33,990 --> 04:46:34,990
That is the criterion.

4477
04:46:37,990 --> 04:46:39,990
If we don't pick that criterion.

4478
04:46:40,990 --> 04:46:43,990
Then we'll just be at a disadvantage.

4479
04:46:49,990 --> 04:46:50,990
Okay.

4480
04:46:54,990 --> 04:46:55,990
I'm still reading the comments.

4481
04:46:56,990 --> 04:46:57,990
There's a lot.

4482
04:46:58,990 --> 04:47:01,990
I'm still surprised that we are almost five hours into this interview.

4483
04:47:02,990 --> 04:47:03,990
Are they live comments?

4484
04:47:04,990 --> 04:47:05,990
Like people are still listening?

4485
04:47:06,990 --> 04:47:07,990
Yeah.

4486
04:47:07,990 --> 04:47:08,990
Okay, great.

4487
04:47:08,990 --> 04:47:09,990
It's incredible.

4488
04:47:11,990 --> 04:47:17,990
I mean, there are not too many people listening, but the ones that do listen seem to
be very engaged in the conversation.

4489
04:47:18,990 --> 04:47:19,990
Okay, great.

4490
04:47:20,990 --> 04:47:24,990
Can we get through all the questions or good comments?

4491
04:47:26,990 --> 04:47:27,990
There is this...

4492
04:47:28,990 --> 04:47:30,990
I must have misread his name like three times.

4493
04:47:30,990 --> 04:47:33,990
So it's Sany C D R O C R.

4494
04:47:34,990 --> 04:47:36,990
Sany C Broker or whatever.

4495
04:47:38,990 --> 04:47:42,990
He keeps on arguing against Drivechains and he's fighting with Jay in the chat.

4496
04:47:43,990 --> 04:47:44,990
It will make sense if you...

4497
04:47:45,990 --> 04:47:47,990
So if you listen to this on Spotify, it makes no sense to you.

4498
04:47:47,990 --> 04:47:52,990
But if you check out the YouTube video afterwards, you're going to find everything.

4499
04:47:55,990 --> 04:47:56,990
Okay, great.

4500
04:47:57,990 --> 04:48:01,990
Let me find the comments.

4501
04:48:03,990 --> 04:48:08,990
Running a node that enforces strict consensus rules is literally being a gatekeeper.

4502
04:48:09,990 --> 04:48:15,990
There are careful incentives that need to be balanced and it's very easy to see them
go wrong with slight changes.

4503
04:48:16,990 --> 04:48:18,990
As we have witnessed many times.

4504
04:48:21,990 --> 04:48:24,990
Is that a comment about BIP300 may change things?

4505
04:48:25,990 --> 04:48:26,990
Most likely.

4506
04:48:30,990 --> 04:48:33,990
Well, the...

4507
04:48:34,990 --> 04:48:36,990
Like, it'd be a big change if...

4508
04:48:37,990 --> 04:48:40,990
Like, what change do they have in mind?

4509
04:48:41,990 --> 04:48:45,990
Well, it seems like Garrett Byrne decided to step in and said,

4510
04:48:46,990 --> 04:48:51,990
could you discuss the minor activation thresholds for the new sidechains in a
Drivechain world?

4511
04:48:52,990 --> 04:48:54,990
The Sanus guy seems confused.

4512
04:49:00,990 --> 04:49:01,990
That's too...

4513
04:49:03,990 --> 04:49:04,990
I mean, what do they want to know?

4514
04:49:05,990 --> 04:49:06,990
It's in the bit.

4515
04:49:06,990 --> 04:49:07,990
There's 90% to activate.

4516
04:49:08,990 --> 04:49:11,990
That's based off of previously.

4517
04:49:12,990 --> 04:49:21,990
It's a couple of things, but there was this used to be a bit nine activation and
that was the precedent was 95% and then speedy trial was 90%.

4518
04:49:22,990 --> 04:49:32,990
We don't want a couple of people to be able to veto, but we do want all the miners
to endorse the sidechain because the withdrawals are so minor centric.

4519
04:49:32,990 --> 04:49:35,990
We want the miners to give it a thumbs up.

4520
04:49:35,990 --> 04:49:46,990
First, miners pay no real cost to adding a sidechain, other than any indirect costs
that they pay from the sidechain being bad.

4521
04:49:46,990 --> 04:49:49,990
So that is what gives them the incentive to only add the good sidechains.

4522
04:49:50,990 --> 04:49:57,990
But that's also what protects the 256 slots from just being spammed instantly and
filled up.

4523
04:49:58,990 --> 04:50:00,990
So it's 90% over two weeks.

4524
04:50:01,990 --> 04:50:10,990
And then the withdrawal is basically a vote that is, you know, it's you need 51% yes
to win.

4525
04:50:10,990 --> 04:50:15,990
But there's also you're allowed to vote if you're allowed to abstain and ignore
completely.

4526
04:50:16,990 --> 04:50:18,990
You're also allowed to vote no and vote against.

4527
04:50:19,990 --> 04:50:29,990
And so the purpose for that is, as I've said, the sidechain itself will
automatically generate the single hash that is correct.

4528
04:50:31,990 --> 04:50:34,990
And anything else was like made by hand from someone else.

4529
04:50:36,990 --> 04:50:40,990
So everyone knows what the one real hash is if they look.

4530
04:50:41,990 --> 04:50:51,990
The issue is that they don't need to look because it's the sidechain, it's optional
to look and the sidechain software may be designed in a way that it sucks so much
that no one can figure out what it is.

4531
04:50:52,990 --> 04:50:57,990
But my point is, it's either in any normal scenario, it's easy to find.

4532
04:50:57,990 --> 04:51:00,990
So there's only ever going to be a disagreement.

4533
04:51:01,990 --> 04:51:09,990
If someone is doing something that is objectively and easily objectively wrong and
easily detected as wrong.

4534
04:51:10,990 --> 04:51:18,990
And that is why you can downvote and that was this is 26% veto because normally
there should just be clear agreement on what to do.

4535
04:51:18,990 --> 04:51:29,990
If we delay if the vote fails, then it just the sidechain just starts over again
and tries to put new people on the withdrawal queue is the resource everyone by fee
and it's twice again.

4536
04:51:31,990 --> 04:51:38,990
So this does not harm those the withdraw people because those people are not lay
people they have chosen intentionally to.

4537
04:51:40,990 --> 04:51:44,990
They have chosen intentionally to wait out the withdrawal process.

4538
04:51:44,990 --> 04:51:49,990
And if it fails, they can change cans again and sell to more patient people.

4539
04:51:51,990 --> 04:51:52,990
And so eventually it will.

4540
04:51:54,990 --> 04:52:01,990
The people owning it are the most patient and most optimistic about moving the coins
through.

4541
04:52:02,990 --> 04:52:08,990
And as a result, they are the ones who are harmed the least by it being delayed by
another three months.

4542
04:52:08,990 --> 04:52:18,990
Sanis argues that there are strong benefits for creating many failures and explain
the disincentives for miners to create failed Drivechains.

4543
04:52:20,990 --> 04:52:22,990
Right, well, no one wants to create one that fails.

4544
04:52:23,990 --> 04:52:27,990
Oh, they think is he saying something like they'll make one that fails and then
steal all the coins.

4545
04:52:28,990 --> 04:52:29,990
I don't know what he's saying.

4546
04:52:29,990 --> 04:52:34,990
He hasn't said this directly, but I'm sure that this is implied in his argument.

4547
04:52:34,990 --> 04:52:38,990
He hasn't said this directly, but I'm sure that this is implied in the statement.

4548
04:52:39,990 --> 04:52:41,990
There are strong benefits for creating many failures.

4549
04:52:43,990 --> 04:52:44,990
Well, I don't know.

4550
04:52:44,990 --> 04:52:46,990
I think that I would interpret that as talking about R&D.

4551
04:52:47,990 --> 04:52:53,990
Like we try if we only try if we only ever open a business that has a ninety nine
percent chance of succeeding.

4552
04:52:54,990 --> 04:52:55,990
The economy would be terrible.

4553
04:52:55,990 --> 04:52:57,990
It would be like, you know, be a nightmare.

4554
04:52:58,990 --> 04:52:59,990
We need all the failures.

4555
04:53:05,990 --> 04:53:10,990
I can relate to this, but at the same time, does this not mean that people are going
to lose their coins?

4556
04:53:11,990 --> 04:53:13,990
I know, but they intentionally choose.

4557
04:53:14,990 --> 04:53:18,990
They intentionally they get the feature if they it won't work like that.

4558
04:53:19,990 --> 04:53:22,990
In reality, it will be like people spin up a bunch of stuff.

4559
04:53:23,990 --> 04:53:24,990
People put twenty dollars in.

4560
04:53:26,990 --> 04:53:27,990
They see how they like it.

4561
04:53:28,990 --> 04:53:29,990
If they like it, they put more money.

4562
04:53:29,990 --> 04:53:34,990
So everyone will have everyone will be at their marginal point where they where they
are OK with the risk.

4563
04:53:35,990 --> 04:53:36,990
You know what I mean?

4564
04:53:36,990 --> 04:53:37,990
It's not like they're going to.

4565
04:53:38,990 --> 04:53:41,990
No one is going to put their life savings on the sidechain on day one.

4566
04:53:42,990 --> 04:53:47,990
The people will only put coins on the sidechain to the extent that they are
comfortable with the risk.

4567
04:53:49,990 --> 04:53:55,990
So this is why the miners can steal is the worst, worst possible argument against
Drivechain.

4568
04:53:56,990 --> 04:53:58,990
And it's also the idea that we're giving miners more power.

4569
04:53:59,990 --> 04:54:00,990
It's ridiculous.

4570
04:54:01,990 --> 04:54:04,990
The user wants the feature.

4571
04:54:06,990 --> 04:54:11,990
No, no one. I don't think anyone will spin up a sidechain for like the purpose of
saving storing the coins long term.

4572
04:54:12,990 --> 04:54:14,990
The L1 is already going to do that.

4573
04:54:18,990 --> 04:54:21,990
It's sad, sad to get a quick, sad to continue to get questions like that.

4574
04:54:21,990 --> 04:54:23,990
I do. I feel sad about that.

4575
04:54:24,990 --> 04:54:27,990
I feel like we could be moving the frontier further.

4576
04:54:27,990 --> 04:54:28,990
We could be working on prediction markets.

4577
04:54:29,990 --> 04:54:33,990
We could be working on, you know, zk-SNARK sidechain, privacy sidechain.

4578
04:54:33,990 --> 04:54:42,990
We could be working on different, you know, scaling with sidechains, various
refinements, covenant sidechain.

4579
04:54:42,990 --> 04:54:50,990
And instead, we're talking about whether or not the user owns their own money or not
in Bitcoin, which is, I think, just a disgrace.

4580
04:54:51,990 --> 04:54:52,990
OK.

4581
04:54:55,990 --> 04:54:58,990
So, Paul, so far, what is your progress?

4582
04:54:58,990 --> 04:55:01,990
How do you see the debate advancing?

4583
04:55:02,990 --> 04:55:07,990
Obviously, you're not happy about the questions that you're getting, but you have
been talking with developers.

4584
04:55:08,990 --> 04:55:10,990
I get the questions that I get, you know.

4585
04:55:11,990 --> 04:55:17,990
Do you think that you're making any progress based on the interactions that you had
at TabConf with actual developers?

4586
04:55:17,990 --> 04:55:18,990
Yes.

4587
04:55:19,990 --> 04:55:28,990
And it seems it must be the case, because if we're really in a situation where,
like, Ben Ark only heard about it, like, two days ago, and now it's being discussed
on stage, like.

4588
04:55:31,990 --> 04:55:33,990
And now it seems like people are still talking about it all the time.

4589
04:55:33,990 --> 04:55:35,990
So we're still talking about it.

4590
04:55:35,990 --> 04:55:36,990
So.

4591
04:55:37,990 --> 04:55:39,990
And the counter arguments against it are so bad.

4592
04:55:40,990 --> 04:55:42,990
And the counter arguments against it are so bad.

4593
04:55:46,990 --> 04:55:50,990
It really boiled down to we don't like it when miners make more money and we don't
like it when the user.

4594
04:55:54,990 --> 04:55:56,990
When the user uses freedom.

4595
04:55:58,990 --> 04:55:59,990
That's literally what it boils down to.

4596
04:56:00,990 --> 04:56:01,990
I guess.

4597
04:56:01,990 --> 04:56:13,990
But it's still interesting that you interacted with some of the brightest minds at
TabConf, and you had to deal with Bitcoin Core developers, with lots of contributors
to this space.

4598
04:56:14,990 --> 04:56:19,990
And maybe that it's not fair to ask of you to share some private conversations.

4599
04:56:19,990 --> 04:56:21,990
But what was the reception like?

4600
04:56:21,990 --> 04:56:26,990
Oh, well, you know, it was a there was a little bit of interest in electricity.

4601
04:56:26,990 --> 04:56:28,990
Many of these people I've known for many, many years.

4602
04:56:29,990 --> 04:56:33,990
So I think it was interesting.

4603
04:56:33,990 --> 04:56:37,990
The debate, I think, you know, it had it was like the main event, I think.

4604
04:56:37,990 --> 04:56:38,990
And it had everyone's attention.

4605
04:56:38,990 --> 04:56:41,990
So that's a that's obviously progress of a kind.

4606
04:56:42,990 --> 04:56:45,990
I really think a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads and kind of
confused.

4607
04:56:45,990 --> 04:56:46,990
Which is which is too bad.

4608
04:56:46,990 --> 04:56:50,990
But also, maybe it's just a sign that it's very new and very different.

4609
04:56:51,990 --> 04:57:01,990
I think a lot of people were openly speaking for the first time, whispering what,
you know, they said the choir part out loud about lightning not being the way to go.

4610
04:57:02,990 --> 04:57:04,990
So that is, again, showing that.

4611
04:57:04,990 --> 04:57:08,990
You know, people are their minds are opening.

4612
04:57:10,990 --> 04:57:16,990
And I think, well, plenty of people came up to me after the debate and they said,
thanks so much for doing this.

4613
04:57:17,990 --> 04:57:20,990
I don't really understand what's going on, but I am really interested.

4614
04:57:20,990 --> 04:57:24,990
And and then a couple of people did come up to me afterwards.

4615
04:57:24,990 --> 04:57:25,990
And they were like, I completely get it, a hundred percent now.

4616
04:57:25,990 --> 04:57:26,990
I get why it's a good idea.

4617
04:57:27,990 --> 04:57:29,990
I get why it's an unpopular idea.

4618
04:57:30,990 --> 04:57:33,990
So I had so I had a couple of those, you know, I had like five or six of those.

4619
04:57:34,990 --> 04:57:47,990
So those are worth a lot because one person who really gets it is obviously worth
like 500 people who haven't read the bit, and they don't.

4620
04:57:47,990 --> 04:57:51,990
You know, they're like I haven't read the book yet, but thank you for giving me the
time to have a look at it.

4621
04:57:51,990 --> 04:57:53,990
But it's like, that's not a real thought.

4622
04:57:54,990 --> 04:57:55,990
You know what I mean?

4623
04:57:57,990 --> 04:57:58,990
I know exactly what you mean.

4624
04:57:58,990 --> 04:58:15,990
And another comment that I want to make about the current culture, because we were,
I guess, riffing around that, is that there seems to be this moral of being Bitcoin
only, even at the expense of being pro-state and KYC friendly.

4625
04:58:16,990 --> 04:58:21,990
And we got to this point where it's more ethical to only buy Bitcoin from SWAN or
whatever.

4626
04:58:22,990 --> 04:58:23,990
I'm not endorsing them.

4627
04:58:23,990 --> 04:58:24,990
I'm not saying you should not use them.

4628
04:58:24,990 --> 04:58:25,990
I don't care.

4629
04:58:25,990 --> 04:58:26,990
Just buy your Bitcoin wherever you want.

4630
04:58:27,990 --> 04:58:34,990
But they don't care that they're being KYC because they are buying from a service
that demands nothing.

4631
04:58:36,990 --> 04:58:37,990
Sorry.

4632
04:58:37,990 --> 04:58:39,990
They are buying from a service that asks for all of their data.

4633
04:58:40,990 --> 04:58:41,990
And doesn't have any shit coins.

4634
04:58:42,990 --> 04:58:45,990
And they do have an issue with ATMs, for example.

4635
04:58:45,990 --> 04:58:52,990
And they say, no, I'm not going to buy from a non-KYC ATM or whatever, because it
also has Litecoin and Ethereum.

4636
04:58:52,990 --> 04:58:54,990
And that service is obviously not pure.

4637
04:58:55,990 --> 04:58:58,990
Obviously, it's a very flawed argument.

4638
04:58:59,990 --> 04:59:08,990
And it also transpires in the situation with hardware wallets, where Trezor has been
around for the longest time, for almost 10 years now.

4639
04:59:09,990 --> 04:59:12,990
And they have developed and hardened their security.

4640
04:59:12,990 --> 04:59:14,990
And they have this open source solution.

4641
04:59:14,990 --> 04:59:17,990
And people say, no, that's awful because it has shit coins on it.

4642
04:59:17,990 --> 04:59:21,990
Let me buy this new and flashy device, which is Bitcoin only.

4643
04:59:22,990 --> 04:59:29,990
Because, obviously, the argument that they present is that the attack surface is
lower if you only have one coin on it, which is really dumb.

4644
04:59:30,990 --> 04:59:38,990
They obviously haven't read BIP44, which is also being used to run the testnet on
the same hardware wallets.

4645
04:59:38,990 --> 04:59:43,990
Very, very, very many, many, very many wallets use BIP44.

4646
04:59:44,990 --> 04:59:45,990
So, yeah.

4647
04:59:45,990 --> 04:59:46,990
I think that's it.

4648
04:59:46,990 --> 04:59:47,990
Thank you.

4649
04:59:47,990 --> 04:59:48,990
Bye.

4650
04:59:48,990 --> 04:59:49,990
Bye.

4651
04:59:49,990 --> 04:59:50,492
Bye.

4652
04:59:50,492 --> 05:00:01,332
Yeah, my point is that the culture has got to a point where it's moral to be Bitcoin
only, but it's also super compliant to be Bitcoin only.

4653
05:00:01,692 --> 05:00:04,652
And we're not really the defined ones.

4654
05:00:05,172 --> 05:00:08,252
We're not really breaking rules anymore.

4655
05:00:08,252 --> 05:00:17,332
It seems like even the coin joins, which are this collaborative idea where you and I
join our coins together to have equal outputs.

4656
05:00:17,932 --> 05:00:20,172
Even that one ends up being frowned upon.

4657
05:00:20,372 --> 05:00:25,492
Blockchain analysis has become part of the norm, which it should not.

4658
05:00:25,732 --> 05:00:26,812
There are businesses.

4659
05:00:26,972 --> 05:00:32,812
I don't think there is a KYC exchange that doesn't employ some sort of blockchain
analysis service at this point.

4660
05:00:33,172 --> 05:00:34,732
And it has become normalized.

4661
05:00:36,012 --> 05:00:46,852
And where I'm getting with this is that I think my favorite possible use case with
Drivechains is, for example, I do a base layer coin join.

4662
05:00:47,492 --> 05:00:54,492
I'm going to have equal outputs with everyone else, and then I'm going to get on a
Zcash or a Monero sidechain.

4663
05:00:55,132 --> 05:01:03,572
And that's the perfect fungibility that I want for myself and other people to use
where you can't really discriminate or distinguish between outputs.

4664
05:01:04,172 --> 05:01:09,412
That's the kind of sound money that we should be having in our transactions.

4665
05:01:10,412 --> 05:01:18,452
But I can also see how this can be concern trolled into not ever manifesting, not
ever coming into existence.

4666
05:01:18,452 --> 05:01:20,532
By the way, we crossed the five hour mark.

4667
05:01:21,212 --> 05:01:21,972
It's incredible.

4668
05:01:23,292 --> 05:01:27,492
And I can also see how this can be used by criminals.

4669
05:01:27,492 --> 05:01:36,532
But then again, this has been the narrative against Bitcoin since day one, since
people started funding Wikileaks with Bitcoin.

4670
05:01:37,012 --> 05:01:38,052
It has been like this.

4671
05:01:40,212 --> 05:01:46,812
Well, yeah, there was an argument that said we don't endorse crime.

4672
05:01:46,812 --> 05:01:53,732
And well, there was, of course, there are always people who are like literal
anarchists who are like more crime, the better.

4673
05:01:53,932 --> 05:02:02,332
But I think I'm more of a centrist, but educated, enlightened Bitcoin view.

4674
05:02:02,492 --> 05:02:06,812
When something like this, it said Bitcoin must be used in the dark.

4675
05:02:07,692 --> 05:02:15,092
Bitcoin can be used for dark, like on darkened markets and in all the kinds of other
black markets and things.

4676
05:02:15,372 --> 05:02:26,532
So it had all kinds of special use cases for like tax evasion, evading other things,
you know, buying buying illegal drugs, et cetera.

4677
05:02:27,012 --> 05:02:34,412
So the argument was Bitcoin can be used for that, but credit cards and other stuff
can't.

4678
05:02:35,892 --> 05:02:39,212
But Bitcoin can also be used for every white market thing.

4679
05:02:41,052 --> 05:02:44,972
And so it's just a matter of time before Bitcoin takes over.

4680
05:02:45,452 --> 05:02:47,892
So a number go up, therefore.

4681
05:02:47,892 --> 05:03:17,292
And, yeah, I think that was pretty logical, and I think that that is also why the
it's, you know, it's just a pure statement of a fact that if the coin does not
capture the, you know, the black market, it will it will lose and it will go to zero
or will go become an NFT.

4682
05:03:18,692 --> 05:03:21,052
So that was an old argument, very old.

4683
05:03:21,052 --> 05:03:24,532
That was like an ancient Bitcoin, like 2011 argument.

4684
05:03:24,532 --> 05:03:27,132
And then Bitcoin Uncensored also would repeat it.

4685
05:03:27,172 --> 05:03:29,372
They would say, you know, the whole point of.

4686
05:03:30,732 --> 05:03:35,652
It was a joke about this Bitcoin do AML, and then the joke was it does ML.

4687
05:03:38,212 --> 05:03:43,332
You know, like so that was a joke, but had a grain of truth, which is that.

4688
05:03:44,052 --> 05:03:49,852
These use cases are kind of just the key to victory and had nothing really to do
with.

4689
05:03:51,372 --> 05:04:02,652
What it meant was that the other use cases of money were constrained as a medium of
exchange, and that there were these customers, the underserved, you know, there were
these customers who that the credit card companies couldn't touch.

4690
05:04:03,372 --> 05:04:04,892
So you had this captive market.

4691
05:04:06,652 --> 05:04:08,652
See, it's just a pure matter of strategy.

4692
05:04:08,772 --> 05:04:27,692
And so the idea was, if you if you didn't do that, you you were you or we would be
dead, the project would be dead if Bitcoin weren't subversive, it will just end up
competing with Visa and then it will just get replaced.

4693
05:04:28,412 --> 05:04:30,572
Visa and then it will just get replaced.

4694
05:04:34,532 --> 05:04:50,132
I get that point, but the value proposition of Bitcoin was never to be like Visa,
you know, I mean, you can misinterpret the the white paper and be dogmatic about
Internet commerce, which was the pitch that Satoshi presented.

4695
05:04:50,972 --> 05:04:52,692
But how is this different from Visa?

4696
05:04:52,692 --> 05:04:53,812
It's decentralized.

4697
05:04:53,812 --> 05:04:55,612
It's supposed to resist censorship.

4698
05:04:56,612 --> 05:05:12,412
It's supposed to matter if it's because you as a human being are centralized in one
point in space and time, and it's it doesn't matter if, you know, if it's like if
your privacy is erased, they'll know who you are and they won't.

4699
05:05:12,692 --> 05:05:15,812
So that's a good point.

4700
05:05:15,972 --> 05:05:23,772
I did argue with someone on Twitter who said, I don't care if my Bitcoin is being
KYC because nobody can prevent me from transacting.

4701
05:05:24,212 --> 05:05:30,212
And I'm like, of course, they cannot stop the on-chain transaction itself, but they
can stop you.

4702
05:05:30,772 --> 05:05:31,932
You know, right.

4703
05:05:32,412 --> 05:05:35,172
Is that Bitcoin worth anything if you can't use it?

4704
05:05:35,172 --> 05:05:48,532
Right, well, the old argument would say, no, it would say it doesn't matter what it
costs, the subversive thing is the only the only vote that matters and everything
else will just take care of itself.

4705
05:05:53,012 --> 05:06:00,372
And partly the whole SegWit2x thing was like, we can't let these corporations are
the centralized ones, they have a mailing address.

4706
05:06:02,172 --> 05:06:05,012
We can't give them their way because it's a dead end.

4707
05:06:05,892 --> 05:06:14,212
So that's what I'm that's what I mean now when I say that these people, the large
blockers today are the people who, you know, the custodial lightning people and the.

4708
05:06:15,532 --> 05:06:27,372
The, you know, the compliance people, like you say, they are the large blockers,
which is kind of ironic, right, because they would never even believe that they are,
but, you know, that's part of it.

4709
05:06:27,932 --> 05:06:45,452
I was going to ask you this earlier, but do you ever think about uniting the Bitcoin
community as a whole, because there was this schism, this split in 2017, and there
was this new chain that was created and then it got forked multiple times because
people tend to disagree.

4710
05:06:47,412 --> 05:06:51,652
Do you think that Drivechains would bring back the big blockers to Bitcoin?

4711
05:06:51,652 --> 05:06:56,892
I don't know. I, in a way, I think you had to wait to do this project until they had
completely lost hope.

4712
05:06:59,212 --> 05:07:20,892
So, but I definitely think, you know, as this project has got momentum and also
weirdly, as it's been criticized by people who don't know anything, it, you know, it
has caught the attention of some of those people and they are now interested in the
project.

4713
05:07:22,012 --> 05:07:41,892
And they're thinking, they raised their head a little bit and they think, like, what
is, they think, like, what is, like, what is going on here that small blockers hate
so much or something?

4714
05:07:43,732 --> 05:07:49,772
It's funny because they really were on the losing end, even in the sidechain
Drivechain paradigm.

4715
05:07:50,772 --> 05:07:53,252
The layer one, the small blockers get everything they want.

4716
05:07:56,092 --> 05:08:03,452
They just have this counter that counts to 13,000, but that's no different really
than check, lock, time, verify, or many other things that it does, just like
counting the block height.

4717
05:08:04,132 --> 05:08:07,812
So the small blockers get off, we get everything they want.

4718
05:08:08,332 --> 05:08:17,732
The fact that many people today don't realize that speaks 100% to, you know, their
own stupidity and their lack of virtue and other ways.

4719
05:08:18,692 --> 05:08:21,652
So there's misinformation on the issue.

4720
05:08:22,532 --> 05:08:24,092
So the small blockers get everything they want.

4721
05:08:24,092 --> 05:08:28,092
The large blockers are the ones who have to deal with the possibility that miners
will steal from them.

4722
05:08:29,252 --> 05:08:37,732
So I don't know if they would switch from L1, BCH, BSV, whatever, back to L2 of BTC.

4723
05:08:37,972 --> 05:08:42,652
But I asked a few of them and some of them, you know, because some of them come to
the spaces or something.

4724
05:08:42,652 --> 05:08:47,892
And so some of them seem to indicate that they might, which I think would be good.

4725
05:08:47,892 --> 05:08:52,532
And it has nothing to do with just uniting small blockers and large blockers.

4726
05:08:52,532 --> 05:08:58,052
It is uniting everyone into one team that will defeat everyone else.

4727
05:09:00,332 --> 05:09:01,172
So that's the key.

4728
05:09:01,212 --> 05:09:08,972
That's very important because Metcalfe's law, because of, you know, network effects,
you know, strength in numbers.

4729
05:09:13,652 --> 05:09:20,332
So basically, Paul, I want to say that I'm super proud of you.

4730
05:09:20,412 --> 05:09:27,972
You were able to take part in this discussion for five hours and you're more engaged
than I was.

4731
05:09:27,972 --> 05:09:29,812
And you don't seem as tired as I am.

4732
05:09:29,812 --> 05:09:30,932
It's 3 a.m. here.

4733
05:09:31,532 --> 05:09:32,972
It's past my bedtime.

4734
05:09:33,612 --> 05:09:38,452
But basically, you were able to participate in this debate for so long.

4735
05:09:39,332 --> 05:09:57,172
And I didn't always like your analogies, but I think as we kept talking, I think
past the two hour point, there was a switch where you basically turned off your bad
analogy thoughts or something and you got better.

4736
05:09:57,892 --> 05:10:04,892
I'm going to talk with my guy who does short clips to cut some parts from this and
maybe make a highlight video.

4737
05:10:05,252 --> 05:10:12,532
I'm sure that I'm going to cut that part where you comment on the panel because it's
entertaining and people are going to enjoy watching that.

4738
05:10:14,612 --> 05:10:20,012
Also, you have a bladder that must be very large if you didn't need a toilet break.

4739
05:10:20,252 --> 05:10:28,132
I know that basically we did this after you had lunch and you didn't ask for any
kind of break, which is admirable.

4740
05:10:28,852 --> 05:10:38,212
So even if I was on the other side of the camp and I disagree with you 99 percent on
Drivechains, I would still respect you.

4741
05:10:38,212 --> 05:10:41,972
But I think I agree with you on about 70, 80 percent of the points.

4742
05:10:42,892 --> 05:10:44,332
And I respect you also.

4743
05:10:44,332 --> 05:10:47,452
So congratulations for lasting so long.

4744
05:10:47,452 --> 05:10:50,092
And thanks to everyone who has been around.

4745
05:10:50,092 --> 05:10:54,452
There are still 12 people watching this right now, which is incredible.

4746
05:10:54,452 --> 05:11:01,252
If you ask me, 80 people watched it in total during our stream and 12 are still
around.

4747
05:11:01,772 --> 05:11:05,492
It's admirable. Maybe that they're all LayerTwo Labs employees.

4748
05:11:05,532 --> 05:11:07,572
I don't know. There is no way to verify.

4749
05:11:08,252 --> 05:11:09,812
How many employees do you have anyway?

4750
05:11:11,972 --> 05:11:19,732
Now we have like something like six tech, eight non-tech other things.

4751
05:11:19,732 --> 05:11:32,172
And thanks, everyone, in the chat, if you want to some so someone asked if I have a
merch store or whatever, you can get the Bitcoin Takeover magazine on.

4752
05:11:32,212 --> 05:11:35,172
So if you're from the US, get it from ellenbits.com.

4753
05:11:35,212 --> 05:11:41,092
They have a very nice store and Ben Ark is a supporter of Drivechains, so maybe
support him, too.

4754
05:11:42,252 --> 05:11:44,652
They're selling it for about 10 bucks plus shipping.

4755
05:11:44,692 --> 05:11:45,972
If you want to get a copy.

4756
05:11:45,972 --> 05:11:57,692
If you're from Europe, which is unlikely at this late hour, but still possible, you
can get it from shopinbit.com and it's a special edition which has a golden plating
on the cover and stuff like that.

4757
05:11:57,732 --> 05:12:05,372
It's also fancier and more expensive, but that's a good way in which you can get
acquainted with my work and also support me and whatever.

4758
05:12:05,532 --> 05:12:07,772
You can also send me a donation, but it's less.

4759
05:12:08,132 --> 05:12:12,132
I mean, I like money, but it's more satisfying when I know that you're reading my
work.

4760
05:12:12,132 --> 05:12:12,932
So thank you, Paul.

4761
05:12:12,972 --> 05:12:16,132
I hope you also read my magazine, at least partially.

4762
05:12:16,532 --> 05:12:17,132
It was great.

4763
05:12:19,732 --> 05:12:21,052
I mean, it's great.

4764
05:12:21,092 --> 05:12:21,652
It's cool.

4765
05:12:21,652 --> 05:12:24,892
It's like a, you know, it's a very different thing than.

4766
05:12:26,132 --> 05:12:28,732
It's a very thick pages and stuff, and it's just fun.

4767
05:12:28,732 --> 05:12:32,132
You know, it's like a magazine, like from an earlier era, and it's cool.

4768
05:12:32,132 --> 05:12:34,252
And I put it in my bookshelf with all my Bitcoin stuff.

4769
05:12:34,292 --> 05:12:36,052
I have lots of cool Bitcoin stuff.

4770
05:12:36,052 --> 05:12:36,572
Thank you.

4771
05:12:36,572 --> 05:12:45,532
I'm going to make a book out of it because it seems like Bitcoiners don't really
respect magazines and they respect books, and it's going to be the same content, but
in a book.

4772
05:12:45,572 --> 05:12:46,812
And I spoke with a publisher.

4773
05:12:46,812 --> 05:12:48,252
It's a huge book with big pages.

4774
05:12:48,252 --> 05:12:49,532
Yeah, I think that'd be great.

4775
05:12:49,572 --> 05:12:51,252
Like, it'd be like a coffee table book.

4776
05:12:52,572 --> 05:12:54,012
Yeah, people are going to show it off.

4777
05:12:54,012 --> 05:12:56,732
I hope I outsell Sepadine, but it's unlikely.

4778
05:12:58,252 --> 05:12:58,812
I don't know.

4779
05:12:58,812 --> 05:12:59,252
I don't know.

4780
05:12:59,252 --> 05:12:59,652
I don't know.

4781
05:12:59,652 --> 05:13:00,052
I don't know.

4782
05:13:00,052 --> 05:13:00,452
I don't know.

4783
05:13:00,452 --> 05:13:00,772
I don't know.

4784
05:13:00,772 --> 05:13:01,092
I don't know.

4785
05:13:01,092 --> 05:13:01,372
I don't know.

4786
05:13:01,372 --> 05:13:01,652
I don't know.

4787
05:13:01,652 --> 05:13:01,972
I don't know.

4788
05:13:01,972 --> 05:13:02,212
I don't know.

4789
05:13:02,212 --> 05:13:02,452
I don't know.

4790
05:13:02,452 --> 05:13:02,652
I don't know.

4791
05:13:02,652 --> 05:13:02,852
I don't know.

4792
05:13:02,852 --> 05:13:04,292
Sepadine, but it's unlikely.

4793
05:13:05,852 --> 05:13:07,052
I don't know how much he sold.

4794
05:13:07,732 --> 05:13:19,052
Oh, he sold a lot, like even I think at one point someone wanted to lobby to
Congress and they bought a copy of the Bitcoin standard for every Congress person.

4795
05:13:20,052 --> 05:13:21,092
That's only 500 ish.

4796
05:13:21,852 --> 05:13:23,532
That's still a lot, you know.

4797
05:13:25,732 --> 05:13:32,812
I'm not sure if anyone actually read it, but anyway, if I was to do another
interview with you.

4798
05:13:33,172 --> 05:13:36,452
There are still some rabbit holes to explore.

4799
05:13:36,972 --> 05:13:44,132
I would read out loud the bips for everyone who's too lazy to read them and comment
on them.

4800
05:13:44,732 --> 05:13:48,452
I guess that would be an approach, but that can take two hours or more.

4801
05:13:49,692 --> 05:13:56,892
I would also try to listen to, for example, there was the podcast by Eric Rodermore,
not Eric.

4802
05:13:56,892 --> 05:13:57,572
What's his name?

4803
05:13:58,092 --> 05:13:58,692
Casey.

4804
05:13:58,812 --> 05:14:00,132
Casey Rodermore.

4805
05:14:00,132 --> 05:14:01,372
Hell Money podcast.

4806
05:14:01,372 --> 05:14:05,292
He did a breakdown on his opinion on Drivechains.

4807
05:14:05,572 --> 05:14:08,772
I think it would be cool if we got him to debate you, Paul.

4808
05:14:09,132 --> 05:14:12,572
But even if he did not, it's still interesting to listen to that.

4809
05:14:12,572 --> 05:14:15,932
So maybe that can be another episode if you're down to it.

4810
05:14:16,612 --> 05:14:23,732
And it seems like there's also a Shinobi interview, but I'm not sure if he presented
anything that he hasn't written in his article.

4811
05:14:24,852 --> 05:14:29,892
Maybe it's better to wait for him to come up with something new before we dive into
that.

4812
05:14:30,892 --> 05:14:38,732
But yeah, I just presented part of this whole exploration of Drivechains because I
think they're a big deal.

4813
05:14:39,572 --> 05:14:48,372
And as much as some people try to minimize it and say that it's shit coins and they
don't actually read it, it's still interesting.

4814
05:14:48,372 --> 05:14:58,492
And right now, the best shot that we have to onboard 8 billion people tomorrow, as
opposed to using custodians or using shit coins for that.

4815
05:15:00,892 --> 05:15:04,532
Maybe that in the future, we're going to come up with better scaling technology.

4816
05:15:04,852 --> 05:15:06,452
So far, this is the best we got.

4817
05:15:10,252 --> 05:15:10,932
Oh, thanks.

4818
05:15:11,292 --> 05:15:12,612
Any closing remark?

4819
05:15:12,612 --> 05:15:13,332
Because I'm done.

4820
05:15:14,772 --> 05:15:16,532
No, I think you should go to sleep.

4821
05:15:16,892 --> 05:15:18,372
You need your beauty sleep.

4822
05:15:19,252 --> 05:15:23,492
Vlad, if you're ever going to land that, that super cycle.

4823
05:15:24,092 --> 05:15:34,012
Yeah, but, you know, the super girlfriends understand and they don't care if I look
like hell and I have wrinkles around my eyes, that's the grind that it takes to get
the supra.

4824
05:15:34,452 --> 05:15:45,212
And in case you're not aware, the supra cycle means that in the next couple of
years, one Bitcoin is going to equal one Toyota Supra and one Toyota Supra is going
to equal one girlfriend.

4825
05:15:45,412 --> 05:16:03,692
And basically, we're going to get Supras and then we're going to have fun and the
institutions are going to rage quit because we dumped on them and then we're going
to buy the dip and we're going to perpetuate the supra cycle and it makes much more
sense than stuck to flow, which is bullshit.

4826
05:16:04,172 --> 05:16:12,532
It was just something that was made up by the bankers and the institutions to make
you huddle until unexpected high, which never came.

4827
05:16:12,652 --> 05:16:15,692
And then they dumped on you and now you're a bag holder.

4828
05:16:15,852 --> 05:16:17,372
At least do something with your life.

4829
05:16:17,372 --> 05:16:18,412
Get a girlfriend.

4830
05:16:18,812 --> 05:16:20,212
And that's my closing remark.

4831
05:16:20,212 --> 05:16:20,852
Thank you, Paul.

4832
05:16:22,412 --> 05:16:23,012
Thank you, Vlad.