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It's Michael Tidwell and Michael B. Casey.

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It's the Block Time.

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It's Michael Tidwell and Michael B. Casey.

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And today we are joined with the legendary Paul Sztorc in person.

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He came down to Atlanta to hang out with us as the newest co-host of Block Time.

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Thanks for coming, Paul.

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Yes, thanks for having me on.

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It's really nice to be here at 6 p.m. in the 88 degree weather, Fahrenheit.

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It's very nice.

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It is a nice day here in Atlanta.

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I can't believe that the hostages released suspect dead after a stand-up at Georgia
Bank.

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That was actually pretty crazy today.

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That was crazy.

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That actually happened in Cobb County.

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We had a bank robbery and some guy hit a bomb threat and they shot him dead.

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Yeah, I drove by on my way over here.

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Yeah, it really sucked the traffic.

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Bank of Atlanta.

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Yeah, Wells Fargo.

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So you like the weather down here? You're getting used to the traffic?

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Yes.

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What about sports, Paul?

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I like it.

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We see you brought a football today to the podcast.

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Yes, I do. I've got to throw around the old pigskin.

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I'm playing for the Ethereum Elephants or whatever.

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We're going to play against the Litecoin Reading Lights.

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All right. That should be a good game.

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The Litecoin Reading Lights.

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I heard they beat the Toronto Car Talks.

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I don't know.

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Oh my god.

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We've lost this kind of part of this.

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No, they would have beaten the, I don't know, Mike Space Cars or something.

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They do okay, yeah.

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So you mentioned – you said something about that.

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It's the playoffs now, so it's different.

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The show starting slow, Paul?

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A lot of lame jokes.

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Okay, great. And now we're talking about Bitcoin.

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Well, for everyone in the audience who doesn't know this,

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I can like really basically not see or hear anything that those two are saying at
all.

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So I have really bad upload.

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Like horrible upload.

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So we have really bad upload, but our download is fine.

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So we can hear everything Paul is saying.

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Paul can't hear or see us very well.

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So he has a handicap.

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Paul may ask us to repeat ourselves.

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It's not because he's hearing impaired.

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It's because I have awful upload.

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Or he might just go for it.

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I'm just going to go for it.

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All right.

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So BlockTime.

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BlockTime has been in the news.

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We finally got to the top of Reddit.

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We've been getting a lot of fan mail.

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I want to read this one comment.

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This is probably one of the best crypto podcasts I've watched over the last few.

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I really like how Chris and Mike B get into more technical details

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that you don't often see in other podcasts.

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Also like when Mike T, that's me, asks questions,

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which not just confirm my understanding,

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but also help new people in the crypto get up to speed

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and not get lost in the conversation.

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The chemistry between you guys is great.

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I think BlockTime is an awesome name, by the way.

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That was all you.

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It is going to be very well, if it continues, do more shows

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and get some guests and some real beer.

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So last time we had Michelob Ultra.

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Yeah.

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Today we have no beer.

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We didn't really prepare.

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Oh, man.

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Liquor?

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You got liquor, right?

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But anyways, that's an example of a positive comment.

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There was also episode 8.

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There was one positive comment.

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There was at least one.

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This is hilarious.

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I was wearing an orange shirt during episode 8,

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and every comment in the YouTube video is like,

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man, I really wish the guy in the orange shirt would just shut up.

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It was hilarious.

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So anyways, we got a little bit of a mix.

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So what was the comment that you replied to in the tweet the other day?

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What did the guy say?

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He said, oh, yeah, we had a stupidest people.

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No, no, no.

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They said BlockTime is like the worst podcast.

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It's so bad it hurts.

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It's so bad it hurts.

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And then he retweeted it and said, we're famous.

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Retweeted it and said, we're famous.

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Yeah, that was funny.

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And also, I would love for someone who hates the show to just come on and trash
talk.

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I asked him, hey, be on our show.

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Have fun.

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And he said no.

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So I think if anyone's going to talk crap, at least come on and talk.

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Maybe you can change their minds.

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I mean I'm not a close friend.

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Say it to your face, so don't say it at all.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Well, I actually love a good argument.

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So funny, funny.

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Vake said shots fired.

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That's how I was tagged in it.

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So that was funny.

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And anyways.

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He's always trying to start stuff.

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So we also had another comment of, let's see.

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MikeBKC got a comment about he was making fun of hard forks, yet his software that
he was saying he needed to upgrade wasn't working for a multi-sig address.

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Which is funny because it had nothing to do with upgrade.

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No, I was just being retarded.

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Yeah, it was just user error.

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I was being so stupid.

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So we do have a multi-sig now.

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It will be in the description of this show.

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If you want to, for some reason, help Paul Sports, you know, help him and his team,
the Ethereum Elephants, get back on the field.

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You know, our donation address is going straight to their team.

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We're trying to support them in their efforts, especially against their rivals, the
Litecoin reading lights.

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Right?

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Is that it?

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Wouldn't it be like the Litecoin silvers?

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Sure.

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Silverbacks.

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Silverbacks.

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Litecoin silverbacks.

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Silverfish.

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Silverfish.

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Oh, those are disgusting.

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Okay.

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Those terrifying picks.

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Yeah, but that would be terrifying.

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If you had to play against them as a team, that would be terrifying.

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Those things are awful.

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Yeah, based on performance on the field, like their market cap.

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If they were human size, you would be just devoured.

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They can eat anything, apparently.

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They can eat air.

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They can eat everything.

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They can eat air.

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They can eat carpet.

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Wow.

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I don't know.

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But apparently, they can survive for years and years in your house.

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I mean, thankfully, I don't have any idea.

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Yeah, my grandma had an infestation of those things.

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They're gross.

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Ugh.

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There we go.

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That's much better.

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That was the real name.

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I don't know why I said that first name.

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I just forgot about that.

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The Litecoin Silverfish?

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We definitely are the Ethereum Elephants.

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That is real.

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The Ethereum Elephants.

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I like that one.

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Well, what's Bitcoin's mascot real quick?

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Honey Badger.

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The Honey Badger.

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The Bitcoin Honey Badgers.

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The Honey Badgers.

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Yeah.

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Look at all the HBs.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, the Honey Badgers have been on a tear.

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That's great.

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They almost lost to the Ethereum Elephants this season.

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It's true.

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It'll be interesting to see what happens.

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Yeah.

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It's true.

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Going into the next season.

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Yeah.

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It was close.

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It was a lot closer than a lot of people thought.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But let's see.

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So there's a couple other pieces.

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We had a lot of comments from the Dojo.

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Some of whom we can't answer because these are directed at Chris.

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So Luca had some questions for Chris.

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Sorry, we can't answer that.

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It was about some kind of conspiracy with Forks and blah, blah, blah.

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Sorry, man.

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Yance was asking another question to Chris about the BIP proposals with Luke Dashjr.

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Unfortunately, we cannot go over that.

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I'm sorry.

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Yeah.

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We can't answer that.

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We cannot go over that.

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Chris is not here.

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And I guess we know what the elephant in the room is.

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Chris isn't here.

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Yeah.

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He's just a ...

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So, Paul, what is your impression of what happened with Chris?

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As far as ... Why do you think he's not here?

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I got the impression that he was in the dojo when I was scrolling down as fast as
possible

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to just try and make all this text go away and pretend to be caught up on
everything.

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That's the way I visit the dojo.

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I got the impression that he said some mean things and then he got a call from his
whatever

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and then he was all sad frown face and now he's going to take a little break.

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That's the impression that I got.

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So, I don't know.

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I'm ...

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I'm pretty careful about what I say in public, just in general.

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I can't even hear what he's saying.

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Just so you know in the audience.

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Well, yeah.

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Can you hear me at all?

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Do I need to turn my mic up or is it ...

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I heard you say, can you hear me at all?

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No, no, dude.

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It's the open app.

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No, it's the event.

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It's definitely the event.

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That's awful.

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Just talk and he'll wing it.

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Michael Tidwell is just like one pixel right now.

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Well, I mean, it's just ... People's attentions can get ... I don't know.

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I don't know.

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People's attentions can get flamed and if ... It's one of those things ... I think
everybody's

233
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:20,760
served better if ... I don't know, if statements are kind of just couched a little
bit.

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I almost feel like we need to start a ... You know how there's like a free Ross
campaign?

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Yeah.

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We need like a free Chris Kleishel campaign or free Cletus campaign?

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Save Chris.

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Save Ferris from Ferris Bueller.

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Yeah.

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He's actually doing important work.

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So like Tidwell and I don't really work daily in this space and Chris does.

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So I mean, this can't get in the way of his actual work doing development for
Bitcoin.

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So I mean, if there's any conflict, this is just a stupid little thing we do for
fun.

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So BlockTime has a prepared statement about this situation.

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Due to recent notoriety that we have received, mainly probably being on top of
Reddit for

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00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:22,200
like five hours or so, we won't be able to have Chris on the podcast until further
notice.

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This was entirely Chris's fault for saying stupid things and he is sorry.

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And he sincerely apologizes to anyone affected.

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And he broke the community promise.

250
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What was the community promise?

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What?

252
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I can't even hear you.

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What was the community promise, Paul?

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You don't even know about this?

255
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You don't even know about the joke?

256
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No.

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The community promise joke?

258
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No.

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Oh, are you talking about you're not allowed to sell your PepeCash?

260
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Yes.

261
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Kind of deal?

262
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He sold the PepeCash.

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He sold the PepeCash.

264
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:52,840
to remodel his garage this time.

265
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:53,840
Yeah.

266
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:54,840
Oh, yeah.

267
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:55,840
Chris, suppose that's a good metaphor.

268
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:56,840
He sold his PepeCash.

269
00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:57,840
Sold his PepeCash.

270
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,840
So yeah, effectively-

271
00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,840
I can't even tell if they're reacting to my jokes or not.

272
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:00,840
This is like, I love it.

273
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:01,840
No, no.

274
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:02,840
We're just doing, we're just-

275
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:03,840
We're doing a buy-

276
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:04,840
Just keep going no matter what.

277
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:05,840
No matter what I say, just do it.

278
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:06,840
All right.

279
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:07,840
Well, I'm gonna go ahead and end this.

280
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:08,840
I'm gonna go ahead and end this.

281
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:09,840
I'm gonna go ahead and end this.

282
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,840
I'm gonna go ahead and wrap up.

283
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:13,840
I'm gonna go ahead and end this.

284
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:15,840
We're just doing, we're just-

285
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:16,840
We're doing a buy-

286
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,840
Just keep going no matter what.

287
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,040
No matter what I say, just do it.

288
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,040
All right.

289
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:28,760
Well, for anyone who, for anyone upset, leave your comments.

290
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,300
Dislike our video.

291
00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:32,400
Let us know your distaste.

292
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,480
I just wanna stop here for a second.

293
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:39,760
Just say, I'm really going to miss doing this with Chris because he added a whole
lot to

294
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:40,760
the show.

295
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:41,760
Yeah.

296
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,120
He's so knowledgeable in so many areas than either of us.

297
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,680
It was depressing to hear our intro with just Mike or, you know, me and you.

298
00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:49,680
I mean, that was-

299
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:50,680
Yeah.

300
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:52,040
The show is definitely not, you know, it's a loss for the show.

301
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,040
Oh, that was depressing.

302
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,040
Yeah.

303
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,200
Well, I mean, we did replace Chris with, with Paul though.

304
00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,200
I mean-

305
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:00,200
Well, yeah.

306
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,200
We have Paul Sztorc here.

307
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,200
So that's-

308
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,040
Paul did care about our podcast enough to come down here tonight.

309
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,040
So anyways-

310
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,920
How long are you going to keep that one?

311
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,160
I just have to remember to look to my left, you know.

312
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,160
Yes.

313
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,160
No, I'm definitely here.

314
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,160
Yeah.

315
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:16,160
Yes.

316
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:17,160
Yes.

317
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,160
Thank you very much.

318
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:19,160
Thank you very much.

319
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,160
Hey.

320
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,160
Thank you very much.

321
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,160
So, so let's continue with the hate mail.

322
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,160
Oh, did you-

323
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:24,160
How much more do we have?

324
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,160
Well, I don't know.

325
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,160
It was all the same.

326
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,160
Most of the hate mail was directed towards me.

327
00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:28,160
Nobody ever says anything about me.

328
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:29,160
I'm just like, I'm like a non-issue.

329
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,160
Do you think that's worth?

330
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,160
I don't know.

331
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,160
Is it worth to just like not even be worthy of the attention?

332
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:33,160
Can-

333
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,160
Or do you prefer-

334
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:41,160
So, so everyone who leaves a negative-

335
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:55,440
Usually I can hear when they complain about me not hearing them.

336
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,640
I can't hear that part.

337
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,360
So, everyone who left a negative comment, I hearted.

338
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,200
So now on YouTube, you can heart comments.

339
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,200
It's not just likes and dislikes.

340
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,560
If you're the owner of the video, you can actually heart comments.

341
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:09,560
Oh, really?

342
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:10,560
Yeah, so right here-

343
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:11,560
Oh, on YouTube?

344
00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:12,560
You can make it a top comment.

345
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:13,560
You can make it the top comment.

346
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:14,560
So, this-

347
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:15,560
These dudes-

348
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:16,560
Make it like this, whatever.

349
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:17,560
Are idiots.

350
00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:18,560
Are idiots.

351
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:19,560
Heart.

352
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:21,960
Explanation of ASIC Boost is completely off base.

353
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,640
This is the guy, dead old Nix.

354
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,200
And then we kind of debunked this.

355
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,480
He was talking about over ASIC Boost.

356
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:30,480
We're talking about covert.

357
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,520
I mean, you know, I don't know if we got the explanation totally correct, but I
mean, I

358
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,520
think it was pretty much right for the covert ASIC Boost.

359
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:45,400
Well, dead old Nix, if you're listening, interested to hear more about you
explaining ASIC Boost,

360
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,400
we're all ears.

361
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,680
Yeah, we'll have him on the show.

362
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:49,680
Yeah.

363
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:50,680
We'll talk about it.

364
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:51,680
Let's see.

365
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:59,640
Can the effing orange shirt guy just shut up and stop interrupting others effing
annoying?

366
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,040
That was me.

367
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:08,200
Turned in to watch comments on Gihan and ASIC Boost.

368
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,920
Guy in orange shirt tried to listen to other people once in a while and let them
speak

369
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:18,560
instead of uselessly shouting, I mean, I mean, I mean.

370
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:20,200
So don't don't worry about it.

371
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:21,200
We're fine.

372
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:22,200
No, no.

373
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,480
I mean, those are all the negative comments, I think.

374
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:26,480
There's probably a lot on Reddit.

375
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,360
No, I'm sure we have a lot of hate.

376
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:29,360
Yeah.

377
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,640
Like 300 comments or some crazy amount.

378
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,640
I can't read all those.

379
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,040
So, Paul, you've been doing a lot of different podcasts, been touring a lot.

380
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:42,640
I've been driving all around to visit in person, personally, all of the different
podcasts.

381
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:43,640
He's making his tour in the southeast.

382
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:44,640
And help them upgrade.

383
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,400
Well, you're supposed to be here in Atlanta, aren't you, right?

384
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,400
You work for Block, right?

385
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:49,400
You're supposed to come.

386
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,400
I do.

387
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,400
That was nice.

388
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,400
Can't hear anything.

389
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,400
Are you?

390
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,400
What version of?

391
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,400
Certainly, the answer is yes.

392
00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:01,680
Dude, well, you've got to do something about this.

393
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:02,680
This is ridiculous.

394
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:03,680
What?

395
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:04,680
What happened?

396
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,400
He can't hear us at all.

397
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,480
That's what he said he wanted.

398
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,400
He clearly said he wanted that.

399
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,400
The answers are yes, no, yes, and never.

400
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,200
All right, well, we didn't ask the last three yet.

401
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,200
So we'll just make those up.

402
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,200
Block is very interesting.

403
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,200
Block, they're very generous.

404
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:29,640
So how has your activities changed at Block?

405
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:30,640
What's going on?

406
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,840
Are you working on anything differently, or is it still the same focus?

407
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:39,520
Right now, I'm really focused on Drivechain and making sure that that goes forward
because

408
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,200
I really think it's really the best thing around these days because lots of people
are

409
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,200
very angry.

410
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,200
in Scala-Milan.

411
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:55,840
And as I wrote about earlier, it's like the real root cause of everyone's kind of
anger

412
00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,640
is that we all have to agree on these consensus rules.

413
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,080
Everyone has to agree down to the last byte, or none of this software really makes
any

414
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,080
sense.

415
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:14,000
So that's fine for Satoshi's engineering goal, but in practice, what it means is
that we

416
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,640
have this situation where people can't just do what they do in anything else.

417
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,200
So like Linux, or in the real world, if you don't like something, you can just leave
and

418
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,200
start your own thing.

419
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,200
That's why we have like 30 different distros.

420
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,800
But you can't really do that with this, with Bitcoin.

421
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:32,200
So like Linux, there's all these different distributions, you know, Ubuntu,
whatever,

422
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,200
anything.

423
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,200
Red Hat.

424
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,200
There's tons and tons and tons of them.

425
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,200
Well, and they're all cross-compatible, yeah.

426
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,200
And if you don't like it, you can just...

427
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,200
Well, I mean...

428
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,200
The Red Hats and Debians are kind of...

429
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,200
Red Hat, yeah.

430
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,200
Those package managers.

431
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,400
Not to caveat too much.

432
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,400
Yes.

433
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,400
Yeah, stop interrupting the orange shirt guy.

434
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,400
Hey, that's you.

435
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,400
That's you.

436
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,400
That's me now.

437
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:53,400
The orange shirt guy.

438
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,400
You're the orange shirt guy now.

439
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,400
That'll just be like an inside BlockTime joke.

440
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:58,400
Oh, yay!

441
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400
Shut up, orange shirt guy.

442
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:00,400
Yeah.

443
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,400
No, you could get orange shirt guy, like, on an orange shirt.

444
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,400
That would be funny.

445
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,400
But basically...

446
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,400
That's when we go...

447
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,400
That's when we get really popular.

448
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,400
...tries to fix all this stuff so that it's like normal software.

449
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,600
So it's like, if you want to install Google Chrome, you can.

450
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:19,600
And if you want to install Java, if you want to have JavaScript run in your Firefox,
you can.

451
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,600
You can just shut all this stuff off and turn it on whenever you want.

452
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,600
And of course, it's not going to be quite like that.

453
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:27,600
And it won't be like...

454
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,600
We won't quite reach that.

455
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,600
But where we are right now is on a complete other extreme, where no one can do
anything

456
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,600
unless it...

457
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,600
We all do it.

458
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:36,800
We all do it.

459
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:43,800
And that has given rise to this weird situation we're in, where there's a committee
of technocrats

460
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,800
who try to decide what's best.

461
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,800
And they mostly do a really good job.

462
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,800
And they are very skilled.

463
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,800
But it's just people...

464
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,800
At some point, you get all the win-win stuff and all the low-hanging fruit.

465
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,800
And you improve so much that you eventually just reach this frontier where there's a
trade-off.

466
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,800
And some people want to go left and some people want to go right.

467
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000
And there is no more win-win, because you've used up all the win-win.

468
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,000
So either you reach perfect nirvana and you have infinite win for everyone.

469
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,000
Or you eventually just reach...

470
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:21,000
In practice, you reach something where you can't have two things at once.

471
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,000
But with Drivechain and with SideChains, the idea is that people will just be able
to do whatever they want.

472
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,000
I like the opt-in, mod-in approach.

473
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000
It's cool.

474
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,000
And I think that's the root cause of everyone's miserableness.

475
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,200
And I think it's really distracting for everyone.

476
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,200
For developers, for business people, for investors.

477
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,200
I just think it's like the thing that is just ruining everyone's lives.

478
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,200
And frankly, I'm a little amazed.

479
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,200
I've been doing this for like a year and a half.

480
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,200
I'm kind of a little bit amazed that more people don't just line up

481
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:56,200
to kind of help move this Drivechain project along as quickly as possible.

482
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,200
But Luke certainly has been helping a lot.

483
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,200
And he made that post and they almost stickied it on our Bitcoin.

484
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,200
So that was very nice.

485
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,400
It almost seemed like he made it appear that Drivechains is like the shiny knight on
the hill

486
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,400
that's going to be a really good solution to save the day

487
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,400
and everyone gets what they want, is the way he described it.

488
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,400
So I was happy to see him give a shout to Drivechain.

489
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,400
It would be really, really good to have a nice solution that everybody's happy with.

490
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,400
Could you imagine?

491
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,400
My thing is that right now there's a huge fight

492
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,400
and they get what, like two megabytes, you know?

493
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,400
Best case.

494
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,400
Or they go right to this Bitcoin Unlimited.

495
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,600
Yeah, it's very, very new thing.

496
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,600
One extreme or the other.

497
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,600
It's like, instead of just doing all this fighting

498
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,600
for just, like what?

499
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,600
Like two megabytes?

500
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,600
For the two megabyte hard fork it just seems foolish.

501
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,600
This thing you can just go, right?

502
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,600
You can go to whatever you like.

503
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,600
But I have different mailing list posts

504
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,600
where I have like what a really, really big block thing

505
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,600
kind of could look like.

506
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,800
But if you want to just add, you can just add like five in a row

507
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,800
or add just one that has no block size at all

508
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,800
and just kind of see what happens.

509
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,800
We can all just sit back and watch.

510
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,800
Let me ask a question.

511
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,800
This kind of goes back to the friendly fork stuff.

512
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,800
Has anyone actually just taken the UTXO set

513
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,800
and pretty much just made their own version?

514
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,800
Like you're saying, like with these Linuxes?

515
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,800
Has anyone ever done that, first off?

516
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,800
People do, but it's different with money.

517
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,800
Well, the Clams is an example.

518
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,000
So they took the existing UTXO set?

519
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000
They took the existing everything

520
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000
and they just said, at this block it will just

521
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,000
start doing something.

522
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,000
If you had Bitcoin in an address.

523
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,000
So does that mean that we might have Clams?

524
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,000
I do, I don't know about you.

525
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,000
You have to buy them before,

526
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,000
I think the first halving, right?

527
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,000
So 2013?

528
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,000
Can you still claim old Clams?

529
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000
Can you still claim them now?

530
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,000
Can you still have them?

531
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,000
Yeah.

532
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,200
So they may have programmed.

533
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,200
I don't actually know.

534
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,200
They might have done something sneaky

535
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,200
where it's like if they don't move

536
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,200
for like three years then they explode.

537
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,200
I don't see any reason why they would even do that.

538
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,200
I'm pretty sure you just have them.

539
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200
So it's been done and it's interesting.

540
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,200
It doesn't really work with money.

541
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,200
The network effects of money are just very strong.

542
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,200
If you had Euros

543
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,200
and if we were walking around Atlanta

544
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,200
like we will walk around Atlanta together

545
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,200
because that's where we all are.

546
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,400
With Euros we wouldn't be able to spend them.

547
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,400
It would be as if they were just completely worthless.

548
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,400
It's kind of an amazing feature

549
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,400
of money that

550
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,400
with cash you can get basically anything you want

551
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,400
but if it's the wrong kind of cash

552
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,400
you might as well just

553
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,400
throw it in the trash or something.

554
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,400
You can't get anything.

555
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,400
If we had Yen or something.

556
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,400
But if we brought dollars to Japan

557
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,400
they would be useless there.

558
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400
So let me ask you about Drivechains in general.

559
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,600
So on the main chain

560
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,600
is it advantageous

561
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,600
for the main chain to have any certain

562
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,600
attributes or does it matter?

563
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,600
You know what I mean?

564
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,600
Drivechain is very asymmetric

565
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,600
so it does matter which one is the sidechain

566
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,600
which one is the main chain.

567
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,600
Originally there was all this kind of theory

568
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,600
about should they be just egalitarian

569
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,600
just side by side

570
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,600
and then whether or not you go in one direction

571
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,600
or the other it doesn't matter.

572
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,800
But Drivechain is not like that

573
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,800
Drivechain is very much

574
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,800
there's like a hierarchy or something

575
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,800
and you have the root chain

576
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,800
which is the main chain, Bitcoin Core

577
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,800
and then from there you have sidechains

578
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,800
and you can have sidechains of those sidechains

579
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,800
and it kind of moves in like a

580
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,800
structure

581
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,800
like a family tree or something.

582
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,800
And so it is better

583
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,800
for the main chain to be

584
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,800
because the sidechains can do different things

585
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,800
so you want the main chain to be the least experimental

586
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,000
and you want the main chain to have the smallest

587
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000
kind of total

588
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,000
externality cost of just like all this

589
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,000
downloading and verifying

590
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000
the blocks and things

591
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,000
so it would be better to have the main chain have the small

592
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,000
block size and have the sidechain have the big

593
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,000
block size for both of those reasons.

594
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,000
But there are other things as well

595
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,000
like the sidechain has a different kind of security model

596
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,000
sort of so it's a little

597
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000
detailed but basically the

598
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,000
sidechains can kind of discard

599
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,000
old history because the main chain is doing

600
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,200
their accounting for them. It knows how many

601
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,200
coins they've sent to the sidechain

602
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200
it knows how many have come back

603
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,200
so there's no possibility of inflation

604
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,200
on the sidechains.

605
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,200
Hey Paul, I was talking about Drivechains

606
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,200
the other day and

607
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,200
it's true that every

608
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,200
Bitcoin block that's found

609
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,200
the miner can also write the sidechain blocks

610
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,200
right? Isn't that true?

611
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,200
That's a merged mining thing, yes.

612
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,200
That's a merged mining.

613
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,200
But it's on every single Bitcoin block that's found

614
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,400
you can simply

615
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,400
write an extra, you can write the

616
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,400
sidechain or Drivechain

617
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,400
blocks for free.

618
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,400
Yes, you can find other

619
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,400
sidechain blocks for free

620
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,400
really any

621
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,400
kind of unlimited number of them.

622
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,400
Not literally

623
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,400
of course because it's a finite universe

624
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,400
but... Well I'm glad

625
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,400
you break that down.

626
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,400
Because there's a problem

627
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,600
because the sidechains can't get their own

628
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,600
coins and they can't have

629
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,600
the subsidy, you know what I mean?

630
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,600
The 50 Bitcoin, the 25, the

631
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,600
12.5

632
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,600
they can't have their own subsidy coins

633
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,600
so the sidechain

634
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,600
has to

635
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,600
survive on fees alone but

636
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,600
the fees might drop to a very low amount

637
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,600
or zero or something, especially at first

638
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,600
and then it's unclear where you would get

639
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,600
any hash rate at all

640
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,600
so it's better to just throw all

641
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,800
it in with the regular

642
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Bitcoin miners and just take 100% of Bitcoin's

643
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,800
hash rate and just say this is like a plug-in

644
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,800
sort of more like a plug-in for Bitcoin

645
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,800
than it is really its own thing.

646
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,800
Paul, I've been hearing about

647
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,800
Drivechains now for what, I mean

648
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,800
we had you on this podcast

649
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,800
a while back and I've heard about it

650
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,217
I feel like years from now.

651
00:25:01,217 --> 00:25:12,217
I've also felt like I've heard that Proof-of-Stake for Ethereum, you know that's
been coming for years too and that still hasn't really taken off.

652
00:25:12,217 --> 00:25:14,217
It's launching this year, right?

653
00:25:14,217 --> 00:25:17,217
Well, I mean it's been launching this year for the last like 10 years.

654
00:25:17,217 --> 00:25:23,217
Well, you know what I mean. Same thing with Drivechains. Drivechains has been
launching for the last 10 years.

655
00:25:23,217 --> 00:25:25,217
So are Drivechains vaporware, Paul?

656
00:25:26,217 --> 00:25:32,217
Well, I was going to ask Paul, what's coming first? Ethereum, Proof-of-Stake or
Drivechains for Bitcoin?

657
00:25:32,217 --> 00:25:45,217
That's a good question. I think I'm going to go with the Drivechain because Drivechain actually has, I mean I only published the spec in November 2015 or I can't
even remember.

658
00:25:46,217 --> 00:25:58,217
2015. And then in 2016 I did a lot of like the peer review and sort of worked on the
like the skeleton of like the architecture.

659
00:25:58,217 --> 00:26:05,217
And then recently we kind of finished it up in the second half of 2016 and then
there was more peer review.

660
00:26:06,217 --> 00:26:11,217
I presented in Milan the end of 2016, that was October, scaling three.

661
00:26:11,217 --> 00:26:20,217
And then in January there were people formalized their remaining complaints and I
had this new thing, which was Blind Merged Mining.

662
00:26:20,217 --> 00:26:23,217
And we've been working on that and that's basically been finished.

663
00:26:23,217 --> 00:26:28,217
So but that Blind Merged Mining was like its own project. So that is kind of the
point of the delay.

664
00:26:28,217 --> 00:26:41,217
Drivechain was really finished like in January and we had, in January I was at
Construct in San Francisco and we had like a little video of the coins going back
and forth.

665
00:26:41,217 --> 00:26:44,217
So we had like little screenshots, we had like a little video.

666
00:26:45,217 --> 00:26:58,217
The progress has been made for Drivechain going from nothing at all to like an
actual thing that's finished in basically 12 months and then adding a new part
that's basically finished now.

667
00:26:58,217 --> 00:27:10,217
And that's really different from proof of stake I think, which is just was started
in 2010 and then everyone dismissed it and now they're still trying to fight that
fight.

668
00:27:10,217 --> 00:27:20,217
And I just had a blog post today where I was responding to Vitalik who replied to
my, I had a big blog post that was sort of famous about nothing is cheaper than
proof of work.

669
00:27:20,217 --> 00:27:28,217
In which I argued that proof of stake was totally pointless because it didn't
accomplish its main objective of like being more efficient.

670
00:27:29,217 --> 00:27:35,217
And then apparently I just discovered like yesterday that Vitalik replied to it in
an FAQ somewhere.

671
00:27:35,217 --> 00:27:45,217
And so I replied to the reply and I just kind of, this post today is just that you
can find on my blog Truthcoin.info if you care.

672
00:27:45,217 --> 00:27:46,217
Give us your skinny.

673
00:27:46,217 --> 00:27:54,217
Just me with Vitalik's FAQ and just kind of going line by line and it's still, proof
of stake is still pointless is the title of the blog post.

674
00:27:55,217 --> 00:27:57,217
It is completely pointless exercise.

675
00:27:57,217 --> 00:28:05,217
It's just proof of stake is very complicated and it exists to kind of funnel money
to these researchers I think.

676
00:28:05,217 --> 00:28:13,217
So real quick Paul, funny enough I actually listened to a little bit of the
interview that we did with you.

677
00:28:13,217 --> 00:28:22,217
And you were saying that every three months or six months or something someone says
that they figured out proof of stake and they haven't done it yet.

678
00:28:22,217 --> 00:28:25,217
And that was, how long ago was our podcast, like six months ago?

679
00:28:25,217 --> 00:28:27,217
Like I don't know, it's been a while.

680
00:28:27,217 --> 00:28:37,217
And I don't know, it's interesting because you also said in that interview that
proof of stake was coming out that month that we interviewed you.

681
00:28:37,217 --> 00:28:39,217
That's what you were told.

682
00:28:39,217 --> 00:28:40,217
Oh, that's what they said?

683
00:28:40,217 --> 00:28:43,217
No, that's what you said they said.

684
00:28:44,217 --> 00:28:54,217
Well what's funny is proof of stake does exist like everywhere but it's like there's
no, it hasn't scaled in anything of value yet.

685
00:28:54,217 --> 00:28:56,217
There is like nothing.

686
00:28:56,217 --> 00:28:58,217
You know who I told that to?

687
00:28:58,217 --> 00:29:00,217
You know who I told that to?

688
00:29:00,217 --> 00:29:03,217
Tai Zen and he said what about Nexcoin and Peercoin?

689
00:29:03,217 --> 00:29:04,217
They're nothing.

690
00:29:04,217 --> 00:29:06,217
No, no, I'm just saying that's what.

691
00:29:06,217 --> 00:29:09,217
Nexcoin and Peercoin, I mean they're not blue chip coins.

692
00:29:09,217 --> 00:29:12,217
Do you know about Nexcoin and Peercoin? Do you have any thoughts on those?

693
00:29:12,217 --> 00:29:14,217
Yeah, I remember that. That's a long time ago.

694
00:29:14,217 --> 00:29:15,217
Yeah, I remember that.

695
00:29:15,217 --> 00:29:23,217
I remember that Nexcoin had to be like, had to go closed source because they, which
is just like purely admitting defeat like instantaneous.

696
00:29:23,217 --> 00:29:28,217
They were just like we have some secret thing that will prevent stake grinding.

697
00:29:28,217 --> 00:29:33,217
I mean NXT, it's a design that someone had this in there.

698
00:29:33,217 --> 00:29:36,217
I think it was a BitcoinTalk.org post.

699
00:29:36,217 --> 00:29:41,217
They said NXT, it's a design that justifies a 100% pre-mine.

700
00:29:41,217 --> 00:29:43,217
And that was just the entire review.

701
00:29:43,217 --> 00:29:46,217
And I was just like yeah, that's it.

702
00:29:46,217 --> 00:29:48,217
That's the only relevant issue.

703
00:29:48,217 --> 00:30:01,217
I mean these things are, someone who's clever enough to find Bitcoin this early,
still very early, these projects are not, I don't know what they are.

704
00:30:01,217 --> 00:30:05,217
But they're not like serious like groundbreaking stuff.

705
00:30:05,217 --> 00:30:08,217
This is just like people tweak a couple things.

706
00:30:08,217 --> 00:30:16,217
Ethereum is kind of the exception because they wanted to go out of their way to make
it like as convoluted and kind of imperceptible as possible.

707
00:30:16,217 --> 00:30:19,217
So that would be very intimidating to all the researchers and things.

708
00:30:19,217 --> 00:30:22,217
I've seen other models that are kind of cool.

709
00:30:22,217 --> 00:30:26,217
I mean I was looking into DFINITY and the way that it works is very interesting.

710
00:30:26,217 --> 00:30:28,217
I don't know.

711
00:30:28,217 --> 00:30:34,217
I'm not 100% sold on it, but it's much more interesting because I have like serious
questions about Casper.

712
00:30:34,217 --> 00:30:38,217
I really don't know what they're planning on doing 100%.

713
00:30:38,217 --> 00:30:41,217
And the more I read about it, the more confused I am.

714
00:30:41,217 --> 00:30:43,217
So I don't know.

715
00:30:43,217 --> 00:30:49,217
Well, see that's the real problem is that we've had proof of work for like whatever,
like whatever this is, eight years.

716
00:30:49,217 --> 00:30:59,217
And we kind of – even in practice we've noticed all these weird little quirks that
it has about like block withholding, selfish mining, whatever.

717
00:30:59,217 --> 00:31:05,217
We have these weird little quirks that we've noticed about kind of how the blocks
relay with each other, ASIC boost, et cetera.

718
00:31:05,217 --> 00:31:08,217
So we have these funny little things that we've learned.

719
00:31:08,217 --> 00:31:10,217
Proof of stake like we don't really know.

720
00:31:10,217 --> 00:31:14,217
As you say, it hasn't really been tried at like a big scale ever.

721
00:31:14,217 --> 00:31:22,217
And so we don't know like what the actual weakest – what the Achilles heel is that
people will actually aim for.

722
00:31:23,217 --> 00:31:37,217
We kind of know in theory it has all these weird issues about you have to check lots
of signatures and this long-range stuff and stake grinding at whatever range the
grinding is possible.

723
00:31:37,217 --> 00:31:41,217
And so like we have these weird issues with proof of stake.

724
00:31:41,217 --> 00:31:51,217
But see that's the point is that I had this blog which I thought was the ultimate
knockdown argument which said that it's not – you won't save any of society's
resources.

725
00:31:51,217 --> 00:32:00,217
So this is a totally pointless exercise because you're just going to achieve exactly
what we already have with proof of work in every single sense.

726
00:32:01,217 --> 00:32:08,217
And after I made that post, Jaquan and I think a few other people – some people had
to like give up immediately.

727
00:32:08,217 --> 00:32:22,217
But Jaquan in particular retreated to this argument that he was going to say that
the security properties were better and it had more security under proof of stake.

728
00:32:22,217 --> 00:32:31,217
And so this is something that people have tried to say that like now they kind of
move the goalposts from, oh, we won't have to waste all this electricity.

729
00:32:31,217 --> 00:32:40,217
They moved all the way from all that to just say more or less that it's more
difficult to 51% attack proof of stake.

730
00:32:40,217 --> 00:32:48,217
But I think none of the people, none of the consumers or like the investors or like
the audience, I think none of them know that that's the actual argument that is
being made now.

731
00:32:48,217 --> 00:32:59,217
That everyone has retreated from saying that it would be this wonderful thing that
had infinite scalability and infinite – now it's just like a better, more resistant
to 51% attack.

732
00:32:59,217 --> 00:33:03,217
Maybe, but it also may have these different –

733
00:33:03,217 --> 00:33:13,217
I think it's very obvious if you have people who are true hodlers and they're
benevolent, then it is a better 51% attack prevention method.

734
00:33:13,217 --> 00:33:15,217
I mean what would you say?

735
00:33:15,217 --> 00:33:16,217
You can't rely on –

736
00:33:16,217 --> 00:33:26,217
I'm just saying. No, but that's what it would rely on. It would rely on benevolent
whales, right? I mean –

737
00:33:26,217 --> 00:33:32,217
Well, my whole problem with proof of stake systems is that they're inherently
centralizing.

738
00:33:32,217 --> 00:33:41,217
Because if you can gain a direct advantage, at least with mining, there are external
factors that can control whether you make more or less money.

739
00:33:41,217 --> 00:33:46,217
But in proof of stake, you're literally – the more you have, the more you can make
in a direct cordial fashion.

740
00:33:46,217 --> 00:33:47,217
Sounds like Dash.

741
00:33:47,217 --> 00:33:52,217
Well, yeah. I mean it depends because half the reward subsidy does go to you.

742
00:33:52,217 --> 00:34:08,217
But yeah, that's a very good point. That's a point of all proof of stake is it's a
direct correlation to how much you can stake to the money you earn, which the rich
literally get richer, which is a centralizing force, which is eventually death for
proof of stake.

743
00:34:08,217 --> 00:34:11,217
Because eventually the majority ends up in the hands of the few.

744
00:34:11,217 --> 00:34:19,217
Well, I mean here's the thing. They'll be like the Rothschilds. You won't know
they're in control, but they'll hold like 99% of the wealth, right?

745
00:34:19,217 --> 00:34:22,217
I don't know much about the conspiracy there.

746
00:34:22,217 --> 00:34:25,217
People really need to ask themselves what they're trying to accomplish.

747
00:34:26,217 --> 00:34:44,217
Because with proof of work, it was clear. Like leaderless election or something. It
was like how do we pick which chain is the real one, the one that has basically the
hash that is lower or speaking loosely, the one that has more work.

748
00:34:44,217 --> 00:34:49,217
But in practice, the one that has more zeros or is the lower number.

749
00:34:49,217 --> 00:34:52,217
The lower number. I was wondering where you're going with that.

750
00:34:53,217 --> 00:35:09,217
But the point is that when proof of stake was invented, they were like, okay, we can
have even more security because we're going to just have – instead of being at
whatever it costs to rewrite the chain, you're going to have to buy up more than
half of all the money.

751
00:35:09,217 --> 00:35:18,217
And then – so the security will be better and we won't even need to waste any of
this – we won't need to buy all these chips and pump all this electricity through
them.

752
00:35:19,217 --> 00:35:27,217
But what I try to describe is that you will always have the waste that will be – the
waste is the same under proof of stake or proof of work.

753
00:35:27,217 --> 00:35:34,217
And just like it would be the same under proof of space or proof of anything else
because the waste is equal to whatever the value of the block is.

754
00:35:34,217 --> 00:35:37,217
The block has some value. Maybe it's worth $100.

755
00:35:37,217 --> 00:35:42,217
This is exactly the same as if someone goes up and auctions off $100.

756
00:35:42,217 --> 00:35:48,217
And they say, I've got $100 worth of gold here, and then let's bid on it.

757
00:35:48,217 --> 00:35:51,217
Of course, the price will eventually be $100.

758
00:35:51,217 --> 00:35:55,217
It will be 99.99 or something.

759
00:35:55,217 --> 00:36:02,217
And so there is no escaping this need to fight over a block.

760
00:36:02,217 --> 00:36:07,217
So you're saying the resource is effectively block size, right?

761
00:36:08,217 --> 00:36:12,217
It's filling it up with spam for value or whatever.

762
00:36:12,217 --> 00:36:14,217
No, that's different.

763
00:36:14,217 --> 00:36:21,217
This is just whatever – whether it's transaction fees or the block subsidy itself,
the block is going to have a certain value.

764
00:36:21,217 --> 00:36:34,217
It's worth – right now it's worth whatever, like 13.5 bitcoins to the miners because
we have 12.5 and kind of like total transaction fees are kind of like one or two or
so bitcoin per block for 10 minutes.

765
00:36:35,217 --> 00:36:42,217
And so the block is worth 13.5, and then you take 13.5 and you multiply it by 2,500
or whatever it is.

766
00:36:42,217 --> 00:36:45,217
And that's the value of the block.

767
00:36:45,217 --> 00:36:56,217
And of course it's not immediate, but over time basically you'll tend to be – if
you've got a 10 percent chance of winning the block, that should be worth one-tenth
of whatever that value was.

768
00:36:56,217 --> 00:37:00,217
It should be one-tenth of 2,500 times 13.5.

769
00:37:01,217 --> 00:37:06,217
So eventually people will be just fighting over those blocks in that way.

770
00:37:06,217 --> 00:37:08,217
But my point is it doesn't change.

771
00:37:08,217 --> 00:37:17,217
If you change the mechanism that maps human effort into finding the block, if you
change it from hashes to something else, it doesn't matter.

772
00:37:17,217 --> 00:37:20,217
The incentive to fight over the block is still there.

773
00:37:20,217 --> 00:37:25,217
And with proof of stake, the lost money is the foregone investment.

774
00:37:25,217 --> 00:37:28,217
So what will happen with proof of stake, it's very convenient.

775
00:37:28,217 --> 00:37:30,217
It's very easy to stake.

776
00:37:30,217 --> 00:37:38,217
And as a result, lots and lots of people will do it because they'll be trying to get
basically their share of the 13.5 bitcoins.

777
00:37:38,217 --> 00:37:41,217
It will be distributed to all the stakers instead of the miners.

778
00:37:41,217 --> 00:37:43,217
So everyone will stake.

779
00:37:43,217 --> 00:37:49,217
So there will be staking of hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars if
bitcoin were proof of stake.

780
00:37:50,217 --> 00:37:55,217
Everyone who's not using their bitcoin, since they're just holding it as an
investment, everyone would stake.

781
00:37:55,217 --> 00:38:06,217
So since everyone would do it, there would be just this huge, huge amounts of money
to be locked up for a year that would not be able to be deployed somewhere else.

782
00:38:06,217 --> 00:38:14,217
And while that's kind of fine now that no one cares what happens with their bitcoin,
it doesn't actually make any sense.

783
00:38:14,217 --> 00:38:23,217
So in equilibrium, it is tremendously wasteful because what you could do instead is
you could buy – at today's price, you could lock in a forward contract to rebuy your
bitcoin.

784
00:38:23,217 --> 00:38:25,217
And you could sell it all today.

785
00:38:25,217 --> 00:38:29,217
This is assuming that there's no taxes or any kind of complicated things like that.

786
00:38:29,217 --> 00:38:35,217
But you could basically invest this money with the treasury and you could get like
1.5% with it or something.

787
00:38:35,217 --> 00:38:43,217
And then once you were done, you'd get your money back and then you'd use the
forward contract to buy the bitcoin back at today's prices.

788
00:38:43,217 --> 00:38:46,217
So you'd lock in the prices today, next year.

789
00:38:46,217 --> 00:38:51,217
There's a basic principle of finance that you should be able to do that more or
less.

790
00:38:51,217 --> 00:38:54,217
I mean there's time value of money considerations and other things.

791
00:38:54,217 --> 00:39:09,217
But you can't – these – having all this money locked up will crowd out legitimate
economic investment and growth when bitcoin is – or ether or whatever is used as
actual money.

792
00:39:10,217 --> 00:39:14,217
So it's kind of – it's just a little bit more hard – difficult to understand.

793
00:39:14,217 --> 00:39:25,217
But there's still this waste that's being produced by the inability to – this effort
spent chasing the rewards of the block.

794
00:39:25,217 --> 00:39:27,217
That's a new concept for me, Paul, honestly.

795
00:39:27,217 --> 00:39:30,217
I don't know. It's just – it's hard for me to wrap my head around.

796
00:39:31,217 --> 00:39:51,217
And I don't know. Just does foregone gain – does it equate to the same thing as
burning of fossil fuels to create energy to run a miner or investing in what amounts
to space heaters after they run the course of their use?

797
00:39:51,217 --> 00:39:54,217
And I don't know. I can't really answer that question.

798
00:39:54,217 --> 00:39:59,217
But it's definitely food for thought because I haven't really considered that
before.

799
00:39:59,217 --> 00:40:01,217
So very interesting. I'll have to read your blog post.

800
00:40:03,217 --> 00:40:14,217
It is interesting. The thing is that there is no – right now it's a little – it's
harder to understand because no one really buys – the coins themselves are an
investment.

801
00:40:14,217 --> 00:40:20,217
So buying them as an investment and then staking them kind of is just like double
investing them.

802
00:40:21,217 --> 00:40:38,217
But in the real world, you would – we're in kind of a weird place right now where
all the – the cryptocurrency market is kind of explicitly undervalued, which is like
a weird thing to say if you believe in official markets.

803
00:40:38,217 --> 00:40:41,217
This is an oxymoron. Explicitly undervalued.

804
00:40:42,217 --> 00:40:52,217
But it's like there's no way to actually – the value proposition of Bitcoin is so
bizarre that it exists in this weird state of just being –

805
00:40:52,217 --> 00:40:54,217
It's like a quantum superposition, right?

806
00:40:55,217 --> 00:41:07,217
So it doesn't really make sense. It's actually – the funny thing is – yeah, but the
point is if any of these things actually became money, then the costs would kind of
come rolling back in.

807
00:41:07,217 --> 00:41:19,217
But there is actually a difference. There is actually no difference between the
foregone gain and the – I mean these are just projects that produce the coin.

808
00:41:19,217 --> 00:41:27,217
So you just buy this – you do this weird ceremony to make Bitcoin using miners. You
do this weird ceremony to make ether.

809
00:41:29,217 --> 00:41:31,217
They are actually the same.

810
00:41:31,217 --> 00:41:48,217
So I get you. And from a pure macroeconomic standpoint, I think you're correct. But
I mean it just doesn't seem like real as in the physical world. It seems more
academic than tangible.

811
00:41:48,217 --> 00:41:55,217
I don't know. It's an interesting thought though. It's taken me back to the econ
days in college.

812
00:41:56,217 --> 00:42:14,217
Hey, let me ask you all a question. Is the main argument for proof of stake being
more secure than proof of work for the 51% attack essentially being it would cost
more money to buy up 51% of the tokens versus to buy 51% of the hash rate? Is that
the argument?

813
00:42:19,217 --> 00:42:21,217
How much of that did you hear, Paul?

814
00:42:21,217 --> 00:42:23,217
What? Are you asking me?

815
00:42:23,217 --> 00:42:24,217
Yeah.

816
00:42:24,217 --> 00:42:27,217
Anybody. I'm asking you and Mike. I want both of y'all to answer.

817
00:42:27,217 --> 00:42:29,217
I honestly don't know.

818
00:42:29,217 --> 00:42:30,217
I honestly don't know.

819
00:42:30,217 --> 00:42:31,217
I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

820
00:42:31,217 --> 00:42:36,217
Why are they saying that proof of stake is more 51% resistant is the question?

821
00:42:36,217 --> 00:42:52,217
Okay. So part of it is that they can pinpoint anyone who misbehaves or they think
they can. Again, in theory they can. I don't know if they actually can. But they
think they can pinpoint exactly who misbehaves and just uniquely destroy their
money.

822
00:42:52,217 --> 00:42:55,217
That sounds arbitrary.

823
00:42:55,217 --> 00:42:58,217
That's literally what Vitalik said though.

824
00:42:58,217 --> 00:42:59,217
Yeah.

825
00:42:59,217 --> 00:43:02,217
That's literally what Vitalik said in a tweet.

826
00:43:02,217 --> 00:43:04,217
No, I was telling him Mike.

827
00:43:05,217 --> 00:43:19,217
Yeah, so basically if you 51% attack with proof of work, it may lower the value of
all the ASIC equipment because it might say, okay, Bitcoin is kind of a – it's not
as stable of an experiment as we thought.

828
00:43:19,217 --> 00:43:36,217
But just the good miners as well as the bad miners take a hit on the ASIC equipment.
But in the case of the – in the case of proof of stake, they know which miner, so to
speak, made the error and then they can just delete that miner.

829
00:43:36,217 --> 00:43:46,217
Not literally a miner, but they – so that's one way in that – so the argument is
that they can hit the entire cost of all the stake.

830
00:43:46,217 --> 00:44:03,217
So it would be analogous to if you could deny miners not only – if you could – it's
kind of – the analogy would be something like you could destroy the ASICs only of
the miners that misbehaved.

831
00:44:03,217 --> 00:44:10,217
I mean it's pretty much they'll just make Ethereum 3.0 with 51% less coins on the
network.

832
00:44:11,217 --> 00:44:23,217
Yeah, but I mean that's – as a value proposition, that's scary because who
arbitrarily says, oh yeah, he's cheating the system? I mean I really don't like
that.

833
00:44:23,217 --> 00:44:25,217
Oh, that's a weird thing.

834
00:44:25,217 --> 00:44:26,217
Every time there's a hacker –

835
00:44:26,217 --> 00:44:27,217
It's very circular.

836
00:44:27,217 --> 00:44:33,217
Every time there's a hacker for Ethereum, there's going to be just another Ethereum.
Like someone who does a major exploit or something.

837
00:44:33,217 --> 00:44:40,217
So here's what I never got about the whole – because yeah, maybe in that case it's
more resistant to a 51% attack.

838
00:44:40,217 --> 00:44:50,217
But the problem that I've always come back to is there's so much more one could do
if they were able to successfully execute a 51% attack on Ethereum.

839
00:44:51,217 --> 00:44:57,217
They would be able to just – because there's nothing – there's no friction provided
by proof of work.

840
00:44:57,217 --> 00:45:06,217
And unless you rely on checkpointing, which is very, very centralized because, well,
who creates the checkpoints and who trusts which checkpoints?

841
00:45:06,217 --> 00:45:14,217
Because you could create false checkpoints too and then point your nodes if you have
a majority of nodes that you spawn up.

842
00:45:14,217 --> 00:45:15,217
That's kind of scary.

843
00:45:15,217 --> 00:45:19,217
Which one is the real Ethereum network as far as any user's concerned?

844
00:45:19,217 --> 00:45:20,217
Yeah, there's no work to go off of.

845
00:45:20,217 --> 00:45:21,217
You don't know.

846
00:45:21,217 --> 00:45:26,217
So you're trusting – I mean you'd essentially be trusting the Ethereum Alliance to
keep track of all that stuff.

847
00:45:26,217 --> 00:45:27,217
Exactly.

848
00:45:27,217 --> 00:45:32,217
And you'd subscribe to their – it would almost be like an Oracle service on top of
Ethereum.

849
00:45:32,217 --> 00:45:42,217
But to me, that kind of destroys the concept of decentralization because if you have
a centralized governing body that's telling you what's what, then it's no longer
decentralized.

850
00:45:42,217 --> 00:45:50,217
Yeah, it's kind of what we do with Bitcoin core development because there's certain
things in there that we have to trust too.

851
00:45:50,217 --> 00:45:51,217
Well, yeah.

852
00:45:51,217 --> 00:45:54,217
But I mean there could be an alternate client that runs.

853
00:45:54,217 --> 00:45:55,217
I mean there always could be.

854
00:45:55,217 --> 00:45:56,217
It's not like you have to –

855
00:45:56,217 --> 00:45:59,217
Like what was it?

856
00:45:59,217 --> 00:46:01,217
Parity or no.

857
00:46:01,217 --> 00:46:03,217
It was like LibBitcoin?

858
00:46:03,217 --> 00:46:04,217
LibBitcoin.

859
00:46:04,217 --> 00:46:06,217
Well, there's a bunch of different implementations.

860
00:46:07,217 --> 00:46:09,217
They all coalesce around general consensus rules.

861
00:46:09,217 --> 00:46:12,217
But like take BTC1 and what they're doing.

862
00:46:12,217 --> 00:46:17,217
It's – you can run whatever software you like.

863
00:46:17,217 --> 00:46:24,217
So you don't have to be dependent upon a centralized organization to vouch for the
software because you have other options.

864
00:46:24,217 --> 00:46:26,217
But I guess with Ethereum, that's not the case.

865
00:46:26,217 --> 00:46:29,217
You have to trust the Ethereum Foundation explicitly, right?

866
00:46:30,217 --> 00:46:43,217
The argument is that it won't really be that bad because at most you'll only get –
you'll be in sync but maybe not for like the last 12 months or six months or
something.

867
00:46:43,217 --> 00:46:49,217
So you just need them to tell you where to start six months ago.

868
00:46:50,217 --> 00:46:54,217
But yeah, I agree that it's not – I don't like it.

869
00:46:54,217 --> 00:47:05,217
I think it's bad as well because there will be people – it will be costless to
simulate the fake histories and people can buy up old keys on the black market.

870
00:47:05,217 --> 00:47:15,217
And they will then be able to simulate old histories as if they owned huge amounts
of – they don't even have to buy.

871
00:47:15,217 --> 00:47:18,217
I mean you could buy a ton of Ether and then you could sell it.

872
00:47:18,217 --> 00:47:19,217
Oh my god.

873
00:47:19,217 --> 00:47:21,217
There's going to be like –

874
00:47:21,217 --> 00:47:24,217
Some people buy all these keys, these old keys.

875
00:47:24,217 --> 00:47:26,217
Oh my god. That's awful.

876
00:47:26,217 --> 00:47:37,217
There's going to be a movie where like a con artist – there's going to be like a
movie where a con artist goes into like a retail store and they switch the Ethereum
node that they're using.

877
00:47:37,217 --> 00:47:41,217
And he goes in and buys everything or something crazy.

878
00:47:42,217 --> 00:47:45,217
And why wouldn't you buy the key, right? Because it's free. You don't care.

879
00:47:45,217 --> 00:47:50,217
A key in an account that you used to own, you're not using it anymore.

880
00:47:50,217 --> 00:47:54,217
So of course you would get paid like you would get paid in Bitcoin or something or
something else.

881
00:47:54,217 --> 00:47:57,217
That's an awful attack.

882
00:47:57,217 --> 00:48:00,217
I'll give you the private key for this address. So they have all that stuff
basically for free.

883
00:48:00,217 --> 00:48:02,217
It's like buying stolen credit cards kind of.

884
00:48:02,217 --> 00:48:03,217
Yeah.

885
00:48:03,217 --> 00:48:05,217
Or not really but kind of.

886
00:48:06,217 --> 00:48:10,217
There's software that automatically makes like a million histories that are very,
very similar to each other.

887
00:48:10,217 --> 00:48:11,217
They look almost exactly the same.

888
00:48:11,217 --> 00:48:12,217
Oh my god.

889
00:48:12,217 --> 00:48:16,217
They pay the attacker a million dollars and there will be like billions of those
histories.

890
00:48:16,217 --> 00:48:18,217
And so yeah, we'll eventually rely on –

891
00:48:18,217 --> 00:48:25,217
If there's no friction, if it's proof of stake and there's like literally no
friction, then you can create infinite versions of the truth.

892
00:48:25,217 --> 00:48:31,217
You're leaving yourself vulnerable to all kinds of weird attacks that I didn't even
think of.

893
00:48:31,217 --> 00:48:34,217
Yeah, that's an interesting vector.

894
00:48:35,217 --> 00:48:39,217
Yeah, so you will need the signal to come from the Ethereum Foundation or whatever.

895
00:48:39,217 --> 00:48:46,217
And at that point, since everything else was free and it's worth like a million
dollars to you to attack with 10 million,

896
00:48:46,217 --> 00:48:56,217
now it's time for you to like call up your mafia associates or whatever and just
like storm the building or do some other crazy thing and like whatever it is.

897
00:48:56,217 --> 00:49:01,217
Or serve them with an arrest warrant or whatever, whatever your style of violence
is.

898
00:49:01,217 --> 00:49:07,217
A nation-state actor could very easily invade like the Ethereum Foundation and
coerce it.

899
00:49:07,217 --> 00:49:11,217
Wait, wait, wait. What did you mean? Spend like $10 million and do what? I didn't
catch that.

900
00:49:13,217 --> 00:49:15,217
The attack so far is like basically free.

901
00:49:15,217 --> 00:49:18,217
I mean it's not literally free, but eventually if –

902
00:49:18,217 --> 00:49:21,217
In a world where proof of stake were like in equilibrium, the thing that everyone
uses,

903
00:49:21,217 --> 00:49:24,217
you'd be able to buy up all these old keys and you'd be able to like simulate –

904
00:49:24,217 --> 00:49:28,217
You'd have software that automatically simulated these old histories that were
valid.

905
00:49:28,217 --> 00:49:34,217
But for the fact that they pay you, they reverse the spend that goes back to you or
something.

906
00:49:34,217 --> 00:49:44,217
So the attack has kind of cost nothing up until this point, but the attack is
earning you some serious ether.

907
00:49:44,217 --> 00:49:47,217
So the attack is worth something to you.

908
00:49:47,217 --> 00:49:52,217
And maybe you just want to destroy the network, right? You could just be a malicious
agent.

909
00:49:52,217 --> 00:49:57,217
So whatever it is, this payoff to you is like 10 million.

910
00:49:57,217 --> 00:50:00,217
You'd be happy to blow up all this money.

911
00:50:00,563 --> 00:50:15,563
You'd blow up the network. And so far, it's been free. So now all you have to do is
disable this one last thing, which is the weak subjectivity claim that is coming
from the ETH Foundation or coming from Vitalik or coming from whatever.

912
00:50:15,563 --> 00:50:20,563
And that's where you put all of your efforts on flipping that.

913
00:50:20,563 --> 00:50:33,563
The other problem there too is there is a unified ETH Foundation. What if they come
into similar governance rules as you see Bitcoin right now and they start fracturing
and splitting into different ones that say, well, this is the version of the truth.

914
00:50:33,563 --> 00:50:39,563
Another camp says, this is the version of the truth. And go down the rabbit hole
with that.

915
00:50:41,563 --> 00:50:45,563
That's going to be frustrating to regulate. All of this is going to be frustrating.

916
00:50:46,563 --> 00:50:51,563
Well, I mean, this whole thing is frustrating to regulators. You can't do anything
with it.

917
00:50:53,563 --> 00:50:56,563
That's very interesting, Paul. I love your take on stuff.

918
00:50:56,563 --> 00:51:12,563
Paul, I want to ask you, before we get too far away from Drivechains, I want to ask
you, as far as timelines go, what do you think is going to happen with SegWit? I
know you said it's not necessarily needed for Drivechains, but it's a good added
bonus.

919
00:51:15,563 --> 00:51:16,563
It's not needed at all.

920
00:51:16,563 --> 00:51:35,563
What is your game plan as far as timeline? You said you do believe Drivechains will
be out before Proof-of-Stake Ethereum, which means that it's going to be done in the
next 10 years, which doesn't really mean anything because Proof-of-Stake Ethereum
probably won't be ready for another 10 years.

921
00:51:36,563 --> 00:51:49,563
What's going to happen with SegWit? Is this going to factor into anything as far as
your releases? Are you going to make sure you wait for this kind of stuff to settle
down maybe in mid-August, late August and then come out with something? What are you
doing?

922
00:51:50,563 --> 00:52:11,563
It's a little distracting because SegWit is on everyone's mind, which is fine, of
course, and which is great because it was finished first. In a lot of ways, it's a
little depressing that we're still on SegWit and now I'm trying to move us on to the
next thing and we're still one thing behind.

923
00:52:12,563 --> 00:52:32,563
I think the progress that's been made is really good. The peer review is really
good. People noticed weird stuff that we wouldn't have noticed, which is great
because Bitcoin is very complicated and just thinks about the right way to organize
something or whatever.

924
00:52:33,563 --> 00:52:57,563
The progress has been good. I'm really optimistic. It's very difficult for me to
imagine that we still wouldn't be finished at the end of this year because we're
kind of finished now, sort of, but there's lots of testing and there's lots of how
to write up the BIP and see. There's just basically lots of testing.

925
00:52:58,563 --> 00:53:01,563
What is the first strategy going to be?

926
00:53:03,563 --> 00:53:07,563
If you're going to deploy a Drivechain, what's the first one going to be?

927
00:53:08,563 --> 00:53:28,563
The first one will definitely just be a version of Bitcoin that has a larger block
size because it's so easy to do that because it's such a modular, very simple change
and there's actual demand for that. I would not want it to be a weird nimble-wimble
thing or a weird other thing.

928
00:53:29,563 --> 00:53:45,563
That's really interesting for the current politics going on right now because you
talk about SegWit2x and then they have the SegWit and then it activates the hard
fork three months later. Do you think you conceivably could have a Drivechain
version online that has extra block space before SegWit2x?

929
00:53:46,563 --> 00:53:47,563
Yeah, I do.

930
00:53:48,563 --> 00:53:50,563
That'll be very interesting.

931
00:53:51,563 --> 00:53:53,563
Will that completely kill SegWit2x?

932
00:53:54,563 --> 00:53:56,563
I doubt it, but it'll cause a lot more fights.

933
00:53:57,563 --> 00:54:06,563
Well, it's annoying because people agreed. So the annoying thing is that people
agreed to something, and when you agree to something, you kind of have to do it. And
so they agreed to this thing.

934
00:54:07,563 --> 00:54:09,563
Are you talking about the New York agreement?

935
00:54:10,563 --> 00:54:26,563
Yeah, the New York agreement. And so I don't know. They agreed to this thing. I
mean, I just don't think for two megabytes, I mean, with the Drivechain that has a
larger block size, in theory, you could have as large a block size as you want.

936
00:54:26,563 --> 00:54:35,563
But in practice, what I would be aiming for is something that's like a 20-something
megabyte block limit that has a soft limit of like eight.

937
00:54:36,563 --> 00:54:41,563
And I would just be saying, I have math on that that I published a Bitcoin discuss
mailing list if anyone wants to look it up.

938
00:54:41,563 --> 00:54:52,563
And both of those would be growing. The rates would be growing at 20% a year. So
that would be like, this is basically your permanent solution, and this is what
you've got, and it grows at 20% per year.

939
00:54:53,563 --> 00:55:01,563
And you move right up to eight, and if the miners want to move it down from eight or
up to something else, 10, 20, they can.

940
00:55:02,563 --> 00:55:12,563
So I don't even know why anyone would. But a lot of the issues are also like wallet
support. You've got to have mobile wallet support. You've got to have industry
support.

941
00:55:13,563 --> 00:55:28,563
Because people are going to buy these things, and they have to know what network
they're on. It's very easy to move from one network to the other in the protocol,
but if you're using an iPhone app that doesn't have any buttons that do that, then
it's useless.

942
00:55:28,563 --> 00:55:29,563
So that would be its own thing.

943
00:55:30,563 --> 00:55:36,563
Well, versus like a two megabyte block size increase, that's like native for
wallets. Most of them don't give a shit.

944
00:55:37,563 --> 00:55:48,563
Yeah. So it would be simple. You would just open your iPhone or your Android phone
or whatever, and it would be like updating the app, and that would switch you over
to the two megabyte version very easily.

945
00:55:49,563 --> 00:55:52,563
But with this, you'd need like this whole interface about, okay, now there's two
networks.

946
00:55:53,563 --> 00:55:55,563
You'd have a new branch of the wallet.

947
00:55:56,563 --> 00:56:08,563
But it's interesting because when you bring up the concept of Drivechains, because
you're talking about a limited block size on a single Drivechain, but I mean in
theory you could have an infinite number of Drivechains, right?

948
00:56:09,563 --> 00:56:15,563
So you could have an eight megabyte and another eight megabyte.

949
00:56:16,563 --> 00:56:18,563
Within reason. It's not infinite.

950
00:56:19,563 --> 00:56:23,563
Technically you have 256, but you could have a Drivechain out of a Drivechain or
something like that.

951
00:56:23,563 --> 00:56:25,563
Oh my god, yeah. A Drivechain of a drivechain.

952
00:56:26,563 --> 00:56:28,563
You can really have as many as you want.

953
00:56:29,563 --> 00:56:40,563
You did say these are soft forks. Every single Drivechain on top of the mainchain is
a soft fork, but what about a Drivechain on a Drivechain? Is that a soft fork?

954
00:56:41,563 --> 00:56:45,563
It is a soft fork of the Drivechain, yes.

955
00:56:46,563 --> 00:56:47,563
And it's tortoises all the way down.

956
00:56:48,563 --> 00:56:51,563
It's lots of soft forking, yes.

957
00:56:52,563 --> 00:57:05,563
From an economic standpoint, the reason you said that you've written about those 20
megabyte hard cap and then an eight megabyte soft cap.

958
00:57:06,563 --> 00:57:15,563
But basically if this is truly permissionless, anybody could start their own
Drivechain and you can peg coins back and forth to it.

959
00:57:15,563 --> 00:57:22,563
So in effect, once these things come around, block size would in effect be
unlimited, right?

960
00:57:23,563 --> 00:57:25,563
Or is there anything that would restrict it?

961
00:57:26,563 --> 00:57:31,563
Yeah. Well, it would no longer be restricted.

962
00:57:32,563 --> 00:57:37,563
Users would face basically unlimited block size, but miners can change.

963
00:57:38,563 --> 00:57:42,563
They can just shut certain sidechains off or they can refuse to add them.

964
00:57:43,563 --> 00:57:45,563
So without the merge mining, you can't?

965
00:57:46,563 --> 00:57:52,563
Yeah. So that's what keeps that in check. If the miners feel like they're leaving
too much on the table, they could kill off a sidechain.

966
00:57:53,563 --> 00:57:57,563
Yeah. So there's an old debate over...

967
00:57:58,563 --> 00:57:59,563
You can either have...

968
00:58:00,563 --> 00:58:08,563
So the total miner revenue is the average fee times the fee for transaction times
the total number of transactions. It's very simple.

969
00:58:09,563 --> 00:58:24,563
So if there's one megabyte of block space and then the average transaction fee is
whatever, seven, whatever it is, millibit coins per whatever, whatever it is, it
doesn't matter.

970
00:58:25,563 --> 00:58:34,563
The point is you have a price per unit of block space, price per byte. I think it's
actually measured in satoshis per kilobyte, I think.

971
00:58:34,563 --> 00:58:38,563
Yeah. It's between 200 and 400 these days.

972
00:58:39,563 --> 00:58:47,563
And so you have this price and then you have... So that's great. So that's the price
you get, but you only get that on every byte that you sell, so to speak.

973
00:58:48,563 --> 00:58:55,563
So you have a very simple kind of multiplication here. You get this square and you
don't want it to be too much like a rectangle in either direction.

974
00:58:56,563 --> 00:59:03,563
Because if it's like a really tall rectangle that's very thin, you have a very high
price, but you're selling very few bytes.

975
00:59:04,563 --> 00:59:12,563
So you're raking it in. Maybe you get like one bitcoin per byte or something. So you
get a thousand bitcoins total transaction fees.

976
00:59:13,563 --> 00:59:15,563
Huge, huge number, just hypothetically.

977
00:59:15,563 --> 00:59:22,563
What this implies is that if you could just sell a couple more bytes, you would
continue to get one bitcoin per byte.

978
00:59:23,563 --> 00:59:30,563
And so you want to sell like, yeah, you definitely want to go from one megabyte to
two megabytes in that case because you're just basically doubling your revenue.

979
00:59:31,563 --> 00:59:37,563
But you also don't want to go... You want to avoid the opposite extreme where you
have this unlimited block space and you're selling all this block space.

980
00:59:38,563 --> 00:59:47,563
You sell so much that the price falls precipitously and you have a very, very fat
but a very short rectangle.

981
00:59:48,563 --> 00:59:52,563
And then you have a situation where the area is very low.

982
00:59:53,563 --> 00:59:59,563
So the area is low if it's a... A straight line has an area of zero and a square has
a very healthy area.

983
00:59:59,563 --> 01:00:08,563
But you want to avoid stretching this thing out because you have all these big, big,
huge number of transactions, but a tiny, tiny, tiny fee.

984
01:00:09,563 --> 01:00:13,563
So in that case, the miners want to kind of choke up the limit and force it.

985
01:00:14,563 --> 01:00:18,563
Right. But it's an equilibrium of market forces based on the miner.

986
01:00:19,563 --> 01:00:22,563
But I mean, that all happens in an unlimited vacuum.

987
01:00:23,563 --> 01:00:32,563
If it is truly unlimited, what you're saying still applies because they're not...
It's not in their own best interest to let it run totally rampant.

988
01:00:33,563 --> 01:00:41,563
Exactly. From my point of view, there will be a new... People write software and I
might have to write it or at least design it.

989
01:00:42,563 --> 01:00:47,563
But there will be software where miners will just say if the block is too big...

990
01:00:48,563 --> 01:00:53,563
Miners will have a rule on what blocks... Total block size across all the sidechains and the main chain.

991
01:00:54,563 --> 01:00:56,563
And this would happen... This is not specific to sidechains.

992
01:00:57,563 --> 01:01:02,563
But they'll have this rule for maximizing their revenue.

993
01:01:03,563 --> 01:01:08,563
And they'll just say if other miners aren't following the rule, then we'll just
orphan their blocks.

994
01:01:08,563 --> 01:01:13,563
And all the miners will want to do this because it will increase total revenue for
every miner.

995
01:01:14,563 --> 01:01:17,563
So they won't need to really be enforced at the node level.

996
01:01:18,563 --> 01:01:24,563
It sounds a lot like emergent consensus in... Not in implementation, but in theory.

997
01:01:25,563 --> 01:01:27,563
Yeah, maybe. I suppose. I don't know.

998
01:01:28,563 --> 01:01:32,563
Yeah. So... Oh God, I had another question, but I forgot it.

999
01:01:33,563 --> 01:01:35,563
Let's see.

1000
01:01:36,563 --> 01:01:38,563
Well...

1001
01:01:39,563 --> 01:01:43,563
It was about the rectangles.

1002
01:01:44,563 --> 01:01:47,563
The really, really wide scenario.

1003
01:01:48,563 --> 01:01:50,563
I lost it again. Sorry.

1004
01:01:51,563 --> 01:01:55,563
That scenario is bad because... It's bad for nodes.

1005
01:01:56,563 --> 01:01:58,563
Yeah, that's it. That was the point.

1006
01:01:59,563 --> 01:02:03,563
It is different. There's an externality for each transaction that's processed.

1007
01:02:03,563 --> 01:02:09,563
The miners get the fee, and they have to store and process the transaction
temporarily.

1008
01:02:10,563 --> 01:02:12,563
Well, it seems like a misalignment of incentives.

1009
01:02:13,563 --> 01:02:21,563
The nodes don't get the fee, and they have to hold all this stuff and verify it and
then kind of store it forever.

1010
01:02:22,563 --> 01:02:23,563
So it's bad in that sense.

1011
01:02:24,563 --> 01:02:26,563
Yeah. I mean, is there any hope you think...

1012
01:02:26,563 --> 01:02:32,563
That's exactly the thing that sidechains will solve, because if you want to opt in
to storing more, you can.

1013
01:02:33,563 --> 01:02:35,563
But if you don't want to opt in to more, you don't have to.

1014
01:02:36,563 --> 01:02:40,563
And then you'll be stuck on the smaller side with paying probably more fees, almost
certainly.

1015
01:02:41,563 --> 01:02:49,563
But on the large sidechain, it will be more difficult for you to run a node, and you
will be paying greater fees.

1016
01:02:50,563 --> 01:02:54,563
I'm sorry, you'll be paying smaller transaction fees.

1017
01:02:54,563 --> 01:03:04,563
So basically, you'll have a cost tradeoff, because if you want... I mean, assuming
you don't rely on SPV for the dragchain,

1018
01:03:05,563 --> 01:03:13,563
then you run your own node, but you choose effectively if you want to opt in to the
system that requires more space,

1019
01:03:14,563 --> 01:03:16,563
but as a tradeoff, you pay lower fees.

1020
01:03:17,563 --> 01:03:21,563
Yes. So, I mean, some people want... It's not a big deal for some people.

1021
01:03:22,563 --> 01:03:23,563
Some people can easily handle a bigger node.

1022
01:03:24,563 --> 01:03:25,563
And other people, they can't at all.

1023
01:03:26,563 --> 01:03:28,563
They really want to run the node over Tor or something weird.

1024
01:03:29,563 --> 01:03:33,563
So this is exactly an example of it working perfectly, where people want to...

1025
01:03:34,563 --> 01:03:35,563
Some people want different things.

1026
01:03:36,563 --> 01:03:39,563
And so some people make a lot of Bitcoin transactions per day,

1027
01:03:40,563 --> 01:03:43,563
and they want those transactions to be cheap, and they don't care.

1028
01:03:43,563 --> 01:03:47,563
And they want those transactions to be cheap, and they don't care if they have to
run a node,

1029
01:03:48,563 --> 01:03:52,563
because they're already running whatever, and they run it on their desktop, and it
doesn't make as big a deal for them.

1030
01:03:53,563 --> 01:03:56,563
And other people, as you say, will use SPV, and they're very comfortable trusting
SPV.

1031
01:03:57,563 --> 01:04:00,563
Those people really don't care about how big the block size is.

1032
01:04:01,563 --> 01:04:02,563
There's no reason for them to.

1033
01:04:03,563 --> 01:04:04,563
No more power to them.

1034
01:04:05,563 --> 01:04:09,563
I mean, if they're good enough to trust SPV, that's good enough for them.

1035
01:04:09,563 --> 01:04:13,563
Like a true SPV implementation, not just a random wallet provider's node,

1036
01:04:14,563 --> 01:04:17,563
but something that does balancing amongst multiple sources and the like.

1037
01:04:21,563 --> 01:04:27,563
It's just, it seems to me, the alignment of incentives isn't quite right.

1038
01:04:28,563 --> 01:04:33,563
And your approach does help, but it doesn't seem like a silver bullet to that.

1039
01:04:34,563 --> 01:04:37,563
Because there's always going to be people who are unhappy with any solution.

1040
01:04:37,563 --> 01:04:38,563
I don't know.

1041
01:04:39,563 --> 01:04:41,563
But I'd like to see this happen, honestly.

1042
01:04:42,563 --> 01:04:43,563
What do you think, Tidwell?

1043
01:04:44,563 --> 01:04:45,563
I wasn't paying attention.

1044
01:04:46,563 --> 01:04:47,563
Drivechain.

1045
01:04:48,563 --> 01:04:50,563
Y'all are so dull right now talking about rectangles.

1046
01:04:53,563 --> 01:04:54,563
Anyways.

1047
01:04:55,563 --> 01:04:57,563
I don't know. I'm kind of jazzed up.

1048
01:04:58,563 --> 01:05:00,563
If you're saying it's going to be here by the end of the year, of course, honestly.

1049
01:05:01,563 --> 01:05:02,563
Yeah, me too.

1050
01:05:02,563 --> 01:05:09,563
I would like to see, given that we have this agreement, we have all this horrible
fuss,

1051
01:05:10,563 --> 01:05:20,563
I would like to see, still, the SegWit pass come July 21st, though, if it's a
window, a couple days later.

1052
01:05:21,563 --> 01:05:22,563
Two weeks.

1053
01:05:23,563 --> 01:05:26,563
But before the UASF fork, I'd like to see that pass.

1054
01:05:27,563 --> 01:05:29,563
And then I'd like to see the hard fork pass.

1055
01:05:29,563 --> 01:05:35,563
And then I would like to see Drivechains become operational and be phased in with
wallets to allow us to use this cool stuff.

1056
01:05:36,563 --> 01:05:38,563
Paul, are you pro-UASF?

1057
01:05:40,563 --> 01:05:41,563
I don't really know.

1058
01:05:42,563 --> 01:05:45,563
I think I'm not. I don't like the precedent.

1059
01:05:46,563 --> 01:05:51,563
I think it should be really hard to change the consensus rules.

1060
01:05:52,563 --> 01:05:56,563
And I really don't think that anyone should just be able to change them.

1061
01:05:56,563 --> 01:05:58,563
And I don't like the idea of...

1062
01:05:59,563 --> 01:06:13,563
What I imagine is a very terrible future where people feel like they have to install
whatever software the technical community demands that they install.

1063
01:06:14,563 --> 01:06:16,563
And I don't like that idea at all.

1064
01:06:17,563 --> 01:06:18,563
So I guess I'm vaguely against it.

1065
01:06:19,563 --> 01:06:24,563
I also think it's very dangerous to go against.

1066
01:06:24,563 --> 01:06:26,563
The only difference between...

1067
01:06:27,563 --> 01:06:34,563
The miners are the only difference between some random file on your computer that
anyone could make and anyone could make copies of or modify.

1068
01:06:35,563 --> 01:06:40,563
The only difference between some file and the blockchain is the miners.

1069
01:06:41,563 --> 01:06:49,563
So I think it's weird to just kind of kick them to the curb and say, you know, we
don't need you anymore.

1070
01:06:49,563 --> 01:06:51,563
I just think that's kind of weird.

1071
01:06:52,563 --> 01:06:55,563
I honestly don't follow their game theory, honestly.

1072
01:06:56,563 --> 01:07:03,563
Because, you know, everybody in that crowd seems to be under the impression that...

1073
01:07:04,563 --> 01:07:08,563
Well, I mean, I honestly think SegWit's going to get activated because of SegWit2x.

1074
01:07:09,563 --> 01:07:12,563
So it's going to happen, so I'm not much worried about it.

1075
01:07:12,563 --> 01:07:18,563
But they're saying that if the miners don't do it, it's going to fork the coin or
it's going to split it.

1076
01:07:19,563 --> 01:07:20,563
Do a coin split without a hard fork.

1077
01:07:21,563 --> 01:07:28,563
And then, you know, one will always be attempting to reorg the other into it if it
ever gets in front of it.

1078
01:07:29,563 --> 01:07:35,563
And the game theory that they're saying is that, well, this one's obviously going to
be the more valuable one.

1079
01:07:36,563 --> 01:07:40,563
But I don't see that as the case because that could be true of any fork you make,
right?

1080
01:07:40,563 --> 01:07:45,563
That if it suddenly gains the majority of hash power, it'll wipe out the other fork,
right?

1081
01:07:46,563 --> 01:07:52,563
But, you know, once it gets past a certain degree of being so far behind, it's just
a dead fork.

1082
01:07:53,563 --> 01:07:57,563
And I don't know. I just don't see it succeeding.

1083
01:07:58,563 --> 01:08:05,563
Even, I mean, except for the fact that the miners agreed to something else that
overlaps.

1084
01:08:06,563 --> 01:08:16,563
Well, it could easily, the UASF could easily succeed because, and it's also possible
that the UASF caused the SegWit2x agreement.

1085
01:08:17,563 --> 01:08:19,563
Oh, you know, I'll agree there. I'll agree there.

1086
01:08:20,563 --> 01:08:23,563
Because, you know, they put a deadline on it, which is, you know, that moved things
along.

1087
01:08:24,563 --> 01:08:26,563
So yeah, in that light, it's probably positive.

1088
01:08:27,563 --> 01:08:30,563
But it's like, imagine the moment of August 1st.

1089
01:08:31,563 --> 01:08:36,563
The blockchain splits, but the split is only one block long each.

1090
01:08:37,563 --> 01:08:39,563
And now every miners have a decision to make.

1091
01:08:40,563 --> 01:08:43,563
Someone has found a block that does a SegWit transaction.

1092
01:08:44,563 --> 01:08:49,563
And someone has found a block that spends the SegWit transaction output in an
invalid way.

1093
01:08:50,563 --> 01:08:52,563
So that would be like the main one or whatever.

1094
01:08:52,563 --> 01:08:56,563
And now the miners have to decide which one they're going to mine.

1095
01:08:58,563 --> 01:09:04,563
You know, the safest thing for many miners to do might be to try and not decide,
which would be kind of funny itself.

1096
01:09:05,563 --> 01:09:06,563
If there would be some element of luck.

1097
01:09:07,563 --> 01:09:09,563
It's as if who happened to be finding what.

1098
01:09:10,563 --> 01:09:11,563
Are you saying before the hard fork?

1099
01:09:12,563 --> 01:09:13,563
You're saying before the hard fork, right?

1100
01:09:14,563 --> 01:09:16,563
Well, he's talking about Jihan's hard fork.

1101
01:09:17,563 --> 01:09:18,563
It would be a negative hard fork.

1102
01:09:19,563 --> 01:09:20,563
It would be stealing the SegWit output.

1103
01:09:21,563 --> 01:09:23,563
Yeah, but are you talking about before the hard fork for two megabytes?

1104
01:09:24,563 --> 01:09:25,563
That's what you're talking about?

1105
01:09:25,563 --> 01:09:26,563
Yes.

1106
01:09:26,563 --> 01:09:27,563
Okay.

1107
01:09:27,563 --> 01:09:29,563
Because SegWit2x, well I'm talking about UASF on August 1st.

1108
01:09:30,563 --> 01:09:31,563
So the scenario, there's a lot of scenarios.

1109
01:09:32,563 --> 01:09:35,563
The scenario he's talking about is SegWit2x does not pass.

1110
01:09:36,563 --> 01:09:37,563
SegWit is not activated.

1111
01:09:38,563 --> 01:09:39,563
And we hit August 1st.

1112
01:09:40,563 --> 01:09:42,563
UASF is activated and mainchain has no SegWit.

1113
01:09:43,563 --> 01:09:44,563
That's the scenario we're talking about.

1114
01:09:45,563 --> 01:09:48,563
And then that gets immediately followed up by UAHF.

1115
01:09:48,563 --> 01:09:50,563
If SegWit is activated normally, that would be great.

1116
01:09:51,563 --> 01:09:55,563
It would be nice to just have people activate SegWit by whatever means necessary,

1117
01:09:56,563 --> 01:09:58,563
including SegWit2x.

1118
01:09:59,563 --> 01:10:01,563
Some people don't agree with that, but I'm a very practical guy.

1119
01:10:02,563 --> 01:10:05,563
And it's just, do you want SegWit, yes or no?

1120
01:10:06,563 --> 01:10:07,563
Yes is the answer for me.

1121
01:10:08,563 --> 01:10:11,563
And especially because I'm not going to be using it at first.

1122
01:10:12,563 --> 01:10:14,563
I'm just going to watch other people use it and make sure everything is kosher.

1123
01:10:15,563 --> 01:10:16,563
Because you never know.

1124
01:10:16,563 --> 01:10:18,563
There's a lot of strong emotional feelings.

1125
01:10:19,563 --> 01:10:21,563
So you never know exactly how stuff's going to go down.

1126
01:10:22,563 --> 01:10:23,563
Stuff's new.

1127
01:10:24,563 --> 01:10:30,563
People test a lot, so I have complete faith in the testing abilities of the core
development team.

1128
01:10:31,563 --> 01:10:37,563
Also, economically, until SegWit's seasoned and it's accepted by everybody,

1129
01:10:38,563 --> 01:10:40,563
if it's contentious at all, you could have a miner fork off.

1130
01:10:40,563 --> 01:10:44,563
And if people join the chain of the forked off miner,

1131
01:10:45,563 --> 01:10:50,563
then all the SegWit stuff done so far, the SegWit outputs can be stolen on the other
chain.

1132
01:10:51,563 --> 01:10:52,563
That could always happen.

1133
01:10:53,563 --> 01:10:55,563
It's a lot less likely to happen when SegWit's been around for a while,

1134
01:10:56,563 --> 01:10:57,563
because then it's been accepted.

1135
01:10:58,563 --> 01:11:01,563
But when it's new, that's a very real risk if you're one of the first people to
stick your neck out there.

1136
01:11:02,563 --> 01:11:05,563
Right, because if it's been around for a while,

1137
01:11:05,563 --> 01:11:10,563
then the miners attack the SegWit output.

1138
01:11:11,563 --> 01:11:22,563
There's nothing leading you away from attributing that to a completely unquenchable
thirst for just destroying everything in Bitcoin.

1139
01:11:23,563 --> 01:11:27,563
But if it's brand new, then there is a very clear line between the two things.

1140
01:11:28,563 --> 01:11:34,563
In particular because everyone knows that they didn't like it and that they were
withholding it for a while.

1141
01:11:35,563 --> 01:11:38,563
So it's very, very different categorically, I think.

1142
01:11:39,563 --> 01:11:41,563
If it's been around for a while, you can't really attack it.

1143
01:11:42,563 --> 01:11:44,563
If it's been around for two months and somebody tried to fork and steal all the
SegWit outputs,

1144
01:11:45,563 --> 01:11:48,563
I wouldn't join. There's no way hell I'd transact on that chain.

1145
01:11:49,563 --> 01:11:52,563
Yeah, because if you're going to do that, then what's so special about a couple of
months?

1146
01:11:53,563 --> 01:11:54,563
Why not a couple of years?

1147
01:11:55,563 --> 01:11:56,563
And what's so special about SegWit?

1148
01:11:57,563 --> 01:11:58,563
Why don't we just try and steal everything?

1149
01:11:59,563 --> 01:12:01,563
Right, but if it's within a day or two, yeah.

1150
01:12:02,563 --> 01:12:06,563
You're protected by refusing to...

1151
01:12:07,563 --> 01:12:15,563
Because you don't want to draw some connection between what you do and what the
miner does that enables them to justify taking the money.

1152
01:12:16,563 --> 01:12:19,563
If it's been around for a while, then now it's unprompted.

1153
01:12:20,563 --> 01:12:21,563
It's like, why did they do that out of the blue?

1154
01:12:22,563 --> 01:12:31,563
But if you're the first one, then your strategic relationship with the miners can be
spun as saying something like,

1155
01:12:32,563 --> 01:12:37,563
you did the SegWit thing and therefore the miner will do some mean thing.

1156
01:12:38,563 --> 01:12:43,563
So yeah, of course, but that's all the more reason to activate it sooner and for me
to watch carefully while everything happens.

1157
01:12:44,563 --> 01:12:49,563
I just worry that people don't know about the risk.

1158
01:12:50,563 --> 01:12:56,563
That's what worries me because I understand the risk to it if you go out and make a
SegWit transaction right off the bat.

1159
01:12:57,563 --> 01:13:05,563
But I don't even know if the core client distinguishes between SegWit transactions
and regular transactions once SegWit's activated.

1160
01:13:06,563 --> 01:13:10,563
Because it may just default to SegWit from now on so people could be using it and
not even know it.

1161
01:13:11,563 --> 01:13:13,563
And that kind of worries me.

1162
01:13:15,563 --> 01:13:16,563
Yeah, I don't actually know that.

1163
01:13:16,563 --> 01:13:20,563
I mean, certainly it does distinguish and certainly it's easy to tell.

1164
01:13:21,563 --> 01:13:24,563
I mean, they're playing with the address format and these other things.

1165
01:13:25,563 --> 01:13:26,563
Oh yeah, you can totally see it.

1166
01:13:27,563 --> 01:13:31,563
But I mean, the uneducated, you know, just, oh, I'm going to send a transaction,
they may not realize.

1167
01:13:34,563 --> 01:13:36,563
You guys are getting even blurrier somehow.

1168
01:13:37,563 --> 01:13:38,563
I don't even know.

1169
01:13:39,563 --> 01:13:40,563
I'm losing the color now.

1170
01:13:41,563 --> 01:13:42,563
I can't believe it.

1171
01:13:43,563 --> 01:13:44,563
You're like a monochrome practically.

1172
01:13:44,563 --> 01:13:45,563
That's so weird.

1173
01:13:46,563 --> 01:13:51,563
We SegWit-ed the color out of the upload for you.

1174
01:13:52,563 --> 01:13:53,563
Oh my god, this is so weird.

1175
01:13:54,563 --> 01:13:58,563
So SegWit is beneficial for the concept of Drivechains, right?

1176
01:13:59,563 --> 01:14:01,563
What? SegWit and Drivechain, they're different.

1177
01:14:02,563 --> 01:14:05,563
Oh yeah, yeah, but I mean because of the version scripting.

1178
01:14:06,563 --> 01:14:10,563
It would be nice, the sidechains themselves, it would be nice to be able to
lightning through them.

1179
01:14:11,563 --> 01:14:12,563
And that is SegWit helps with lightning.

1180
01:14:13,563 --> 01:14:14,563
And so lightning helps sidechains.

1181
01:14:15,563 --> 01:14:16,563
They kind of help each other out a lot.

1182
01:14:17,563 --> 01:14:22,563
But lightning has more helpful to sidechains, I think, than sidechains are helpful
to lightning.

1183
01:14:24,563 --> 01:14:30,563
The cool thing is, if you have lightning on two networks, it's just hash-locked
contracts,

1184
01:14:31,563 --> 01:14:36,563
as long as the two have hash functions that the other understands, which they will,

1185
01:14:36,563 --> 01:14:38,563
because they'll just have the same hash function.

1186
01:14:39,563 --> 01:14:41,563
It'll be the same SHA-256 or whatever.

1187
01:14:42,563 --> 01:14:49,563
Lightning between two people on mainchain Bitcoin is the same as lightning between
two people on the sidechain Bitcoin,

1188
01:14:50,563 --> 01:14:53,563
and it's the same if half is on one and half is on the other.

1189
01:14:54,563 --> 01:15:01,563
So if you're making Drivechain one, whatever it's called, does it have the same
private key structure as Bitcoin?

1190
01:15:02,563 --> 01:15:09,563
My vision for the large block sidechain is that it's just a copy of the latest
version of Bitcoin.

1191
01:15:10,563 --> 01:15:14,563
What about things like replay attacks, if you have the same private key on both
chains?

1192
01:15:15,895 --> 01:15:33,895
You would not. That's a very good question. You would not, though. Because when you
send them from the mainchain to the sidechain, you say, I'm going to spend from here
and send it to this address over there. You have a new address. It's a very good
question, though.

1193
01:15:34,895 --> 01:15:39,895
But if somebody was stupid enough to send it to the same address on both chains, it
could be replayed.

1194
01:15:41,895 --> 01:15:53,895
No, I don't think so. You'd have to select the actual transaction ID. You might be
right, but I don't think so.

1195
01:15:54,895 --> 01:16:02,895
What you're imagining is you send it to the sidechain, and then you can't spend it
again. You can't double spend it on the mainchain.

1196
01:16:03,895 --> 01:16:12,895
So if you're signing UTXO outputs, then yeah, it doesn't stand that it would follow
because those are never going to line up.

1197
01:16:15,895 --> 01:16:17,895
You have to have the same transaction ID.

1198
01:16:18,895 --> 01:16:22,895
Paul, do you see some of the sidechains acting as feature branches?

1199
01:16:24,895 --> 01:16:33,895
Yes, I do. That's my vision for sidechains. They're categories of things. You have
the privacy sidechain, the identity sidechain.

1200
01:16:34,895 --> 01:16:44,895
When I ask that question, let's say these features are tested out there in the
testnet and then merged into the Bitcoin mainchain.

1201
01:16:45,895 --> 01:16:52,895
Some people have this vision for sidechains as we'll test weird stuff there, and
then we'll merge it in.

1202
01:16:53,895 --> 01:16:57,895
I think that was a really good first start, but I don't really see it that way
anymore.

1203
01:16:58,895 --> 01:17:05,895
Now we're already merging in super weird stuff. SegWit is pretty weird, and we're
merging it in anyway, and we merged in other weird stuff.

1204
01:17:06,895 --> 01:17:10,895
I think we have testnet for that. Sidechains might be used for that purpose.

1205
01:17:11,895 --> 01:17:18,895
I think instead, though, it will be stuff where there's an actual tradeoff where
people say, okay, this feature is just really heavy.

1206
01:17:19,895 --> 01:17:23,895
Will people do ICOs on the sidechain?

1207
01:17:24,895 --> 01:17:35,895
There may be a counterparty style sidechain that has just a bunch of assets, and
then people might do all day long.

1208
01:17:36,895 --> 01:17:42,895
They might do all kinds of illegal securities offerings on violating many laws.

1209
01:17:43,895 --> 01:17:44,895
They might do that all day.

1210
01:17:45,895 --> 01:17:49,895
But that's just a token riding on top of the sidechain, not the sidechain itself.

1211
01:17:50,895 --> 01:17:54,895
Because then the sidechain itself acts more like Ethereum as a base for other
assets.

1212
01:17:55,895 --> 01:18:07,895
If you wanted to have this thing that had just every token under the sun, I think it
would be better to put all that in one category and say this is the sidechain that
will manage digital collectibles.

1213
01:18:08,895 --> 01:18:14,895
And it will have Pepe Cash, and it will have Rare Pepe, and it will have Spells of
Genesis, and it will have digital collectibles.

1214
01:18:15,895 --> 01:18:16,895
They'll all be over there.

1215
01:18:17,895 --> 01:18:34,895
And you'll be kind of having an all-for-one deal where it's like you have to
download everyone else's digital assets if you want your digital assets to be there.

1216
01:18:34,895 --> 01:18:47,895
But if you don't want to play any weird digital asset games at all, if you're not
into Pepe Cash, nor are you into Spells of Genesis, nor are you into anything else,
ICOs, then you just say I'm not going to use the counterparty sidechain.

1217
01:18:48,895 --> 01:18:49,895
Thanks, but no thanks.

1218
01:18:50,895 --> 01:18:53,895
But if you do, it's better. You don't want to go down the line and have each one be
different.

1219
01:18:54,895 --> 01:18:56,895
So just to explore the concept of privacy a little bit.

1220
01:18:57,895 --> 01:19:02,895
Real quick, were you talking about an ERC-20 standard? Is that what you were saying?

1221
01:19:02,895 --> 01:19:06,895
Yeah, the ERC-20 sidechain, which would be like the counterparty sidechain.

1222
01:19:07,895 --> 01:19:11,895
Yeah, he's saying have one sidechain just devoted to tokenization crap.

1223
01:19:12,895 --> 01:19:13,895
We got our first live comment.

1224
01:19:14,895 --> 01:19:15,895
Oh, yeah. I didn't know we were streaming.

1225
01:19:16,895 --> 01:19:24,895
No, we're not. That's the funny part. I posted a picture of our podcast though in
the dojo, and Talon says everyone looks miserable.

1226
01:19:25,895 --> 01:19:26,895
I'm sorry.

1227
01:19:27,895 --> 01:19:28,895
It's been a long week.

1228
01:19:29,895 --> 01:19:30,895
It's been a long week.

1229
01:19:31,895 --> 01:19:32,895
We are miserable though.

1230
01:19:34,895 --> 01:19:35,895
Misery loves company.

1231
01:19:36,895 --> 01:19:43,895
So I just would like to explore a little bit the concept of privacy as it applies to
Drivechains and sidechains in general.

1232
01:19:44,895 --> 01:19:56,895
So how private – I know you can move in a market that can be very opaque where you
could exchange coins with others on a market like an external thing.

1233
01:19:57,895 --> 01:20:09,895
But as for the actual transfer back and forth from mainchain to the sidechains, how
transparent is that? Is it like 100% traceable?

1234
01:20:10,895 --> 01:20:20,895
It's 100% transparent. So everyone knows if you send – there's a lot of – so any
Lightning transfers you do are totally private, 100%.

1235
01:20:21,895 --> 01:20:23,895
But they're all off-chain.

1236
01:20:24,895 --> 01:20:39,895
So if Tidwell has four side Bitcoin and I have four main Bitcoin and we swap, we can
swap those with each other without that being even on any chain right now.

1237
01:20:40,895 --> 01:20:47,895
It would be like Lightning where this stuff happens in a hidden zone, and then only
the net effect of this stuff is actually broadcast.

1238
01:20:47,895 --> 01:20:58,895
But speaking about the actual messages, everyone will see that someone, some address
on the mainchain is putting their money into a specific sidechain.

1239
01:20:59,895 --> 01:21:08,895
So they say, we know that money moves from address 14JX to the large block sidechain
at this address.

1240
01:21:09,895 --> 01:21:20,895
They won't necessarily know who – it will be the same pseudonymity as before. They
won't necessarily know who – but they will know that that money was linked.

1241
01:21:21,895 --> 01:21:27,895
They don't know if that money was transferred or if it was you swapping with someone
else. So there's a lot of stuff that's unknown.

1242
01:21:28,895 --> 01:21:40,895
But yeah, those are just public. When money moves from one blockchain to another,
from the mainchain to a sidechain or from one sidechain to another sidechain, that
is public.

1243
01:21:41,895 --> 01:21:44,895
So we got a couple. Let's see, because I know you've been thinking about this a lot.

1244
01:21:45,895 --> 01:21:56,895
So we have an asset sidechain, a privacy sidechain, an identity sidechain. What
other ones do you see popping up?

1245
01:21:57,895 --> 01:22:00,895
There's my own project, which is Bitcoin Hivemind, which is like a market.

1246
01:22:01,895 --> 01:22:09,895
Paul, it really sounds like this might be a killer app for Bitcoin or blockchain
tech. Is that what you would say?

1247
01:22:10,895 --> 01:22:18,895
Oh, you never know. Everything's the killer app of everything, I guess. I don't
know. I mean, I remember that Myst was the killer app for the CD-ROM.

1248
01:22:19,895 --> 01:22:26,895
I don't think anyone's used that. I mean, I guess Ocarina of Time was the killer app
for N64 or was that Super Mario 64? Maybe. I don't know.

1249
01:22:27,895 --> 01:22:36,895
That's what I remember as a killer app. I don't know. Ransomware is the killer app
for Bitcoin because you literally need Bitcoin.

1250
01:22:37,895 --> 01:22:51,895
So what other sidechains? I think I really want to bring BitMessage back. I really
liked BitMessage a lot. I'm sad that it's not being used. I think we should all use
it. We shouldn't be dogfooding.

1251
01:22:52,895 --> 01:22:53,895
You know what? I'm not familiar with BitMessage.

1252
01:22:54,895 --> 01:22:55,895
I remember it.

1253
01:22:55,895 --> 01:23:12,895
Oh, it's so cool. So basically BitMessage is sort of like – I have a big problem
with the way we do email. And Gmail does a great job. But the problem is we need –
we're totally reliant on them for their spam filters because it's free to send an
email.

1254
01:23:12,895 --> 01:23:28,895
So my thesis is if we could just make it expensive to send an email, just force
people to pay – it sounds very much like 21, except not – I mean that's kind of a
weird way to run a company on this premise.

1255
01:23:28,895 --> 01:23:43,895
Everyone should be able to generate these emails and these contact information. And
it interacts nicely with the identity concept that you should be able to have just a
Michael Tidwell and then anyone should be able to contact you if they pay 10 cents
to you or whatever.

1256
01:23:43,895 --> 01:23:56,895
And so we need a lot of technology for this. We need micropayments. We need
Lightning Network. We need SegWit. We need sidechains. So it's a big project. But
we're within striking distance of this project I think.

1257
01:23:57,895 --> 01:24:09,895
And I don't like the fact that – I mean right now, think of how much stuff your
Gmail has. It has all of your contacts as a start and all of these private messages
that you've sent to your friends and family.

1258
01:24:10,895 --> 01:24:23,895
But B, every time you sign up for something, you get the automated email and then
you confirm your account. They can reset all of your passwords and they know every
place you have an account and they can reset every single password that you have.

1259
01:24:24,895 --> 01:24:43,895
It's just like an extremely high amount of control that's just been handed right
over. And I just – it's sort of fine for now. I mean the weird thing is already we
see the problems because already we have the people porting the phone number and
then using the phone number to reset the Gmail account.

1260
01:24:43,895 --> 01:24:55,895
So we already are seeing the inefficiencies sort of begin to appear in this model,
and it's better. It's just better if we can switch to something like BitMessage.

1261
01:24:55,895 --> 01:25:07,895
I mean I really fear for a society that doesn't have message privacy. I just think
it's outrageous what we have to put up with now that people couldn't put up with
easily in the past.

1262
01:25:07,895 --> 01:25:20,895
And we're kind of within striking distance of this thing. I think that would be
great and the reason it should be a sidechain is so that we can have this thing
where it's you've got to pay me $0.20 in Bitcoin to contact me.

1263
01:25:20,895 --> 01:25:30,895
And maybe I have like different lanes. I would love to have different lanes where
it's like I will give you a thoughtful reply and I will read your thing immediately
if you pay me like $100 or something.

1264
01:25:31,895 --> 01:25:43,895
I can imagine certain people who have a certain type of personality. They could be
like, yeah, if you're not on my white list, you've got to pay me $50 to send me a
message.

1265
01:25:43,895 --> 01:25:58,895
Spam has a real cost. Spam is really annoying. Just think about all the email, the
snail mail that you throw away. You just really don't want to deal with any of it.
This is your scarce attention that is being consumed by this process.

1266
01:25:58,895 --> 01:26:05,895
And to help you, you just have to hand over basically your entire digital existence
to Gmail or similar.

1267
01:26:06,895 --> 01:26:15,895
Someone's going to use your most valued lane or whatever and spend $50 and be like,
this was my last $50 on my Nigerian Prince.

1268
01:26:15,895 --> 01:26:16,895
Yeah.

1269
01:26:16,895 --> 01:26:19,895
I gave you my last $50.

1270
01:26:20,895 --> 01:26:31,895
Well, the weird thing is if someone – I would carefully consider like, oh, someone
spent – because the point of email spam, someone actually has – there are very
interesting theories about email spam.

1271
01:26:31,895 --> 01:26:47,895
One is that it never actually works and so it doesn't work. So one basic theory is
just that all they have to do is it's free. It's a numbers game. They send all this
stuff out and they just want to hook like the one or two really gullible people.

1272
01:26:47,895 --> 01:26:49,895
So that's the basic theory.

1273
01:26:49,895 --> 01:26:55,895
But there's another theory that is sort of like a Dunning-Kruger theory, which is
like an email spam never works.

1274
01:26:55,895 --> 01:27:08,895
But what happens is the dumbest like 5 percent of the technologically literate
population, the dumbest 5 percent think that it works and they say, oh, I've got to
find these suckers.

1275
01:27:08,895 --> 01:27:12,895
And so it has these waves of just ongoing spam.

1276
01:27:12,895 --> 01:27:21,895
Well, that would just imply that nobody has ever fallen for like a 509 scam or you
know what I mean, which I'm sure somebody at some point in the line has.

1277
01:27:21,895 --> 01:27:29,895
But yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for that. It's a very, very low success
rate, very low.

1278
01:27:29,895 --> 01:27:32,895
It clogs up our – the point is it clogs up our –

1279
01:27:32,895 --> 01:27:34,895
Our tubes.

1280
01:27:34,895 --> 01:27:35,895
Our lives.

1281
01:27:35,895 --> 01:27:36,895
Our internet tubes.

1282
01:27:37,895 --> 01:27:39,895
But it clogs up our neurons.

1283
01:27:39,895 --> 01:27:42,895
So that's one thing. I'd like to bring BitMessage back.

1284
01:27:42,895 --> 01:27:48,895
I would like to – I don't know if a drop – what happened with Dropzone with Chris's
project.

1285
01:27:48,895 --> 01:27:51,895
Junseth and him were really excited about that.

1286
01:27:51,895 --> 01:27:59,895
I know. So that would be cool. I mean they use Bitcoin testnet for messaging, but
they could – it's like an instant messenger type thing.

1287
01:27:59,895 --> 01:28:02,895
But it would be better. It would be a little cleaner if that were custom.

1288
01:28:02,895 --> 01:28:10,895
Why not like a Ripple? The old Ripple idea was like – it was bad, but it was a lot
better than all this crap that we're dealing with now.

1289
01:28:10,895 --> 01:28:16,895
And then there's Rootstock as well. I don't really – I think that – I think it's
better to do the sidechains by topic.

1290
01:28:16,895 --> 01:28:27,895
But yeah, if the market wants to have a – I mean what I would imagine is that you
would turn on Rootstock and you'd realize that no one was using this for anything
except ICOs and speculation.

1291
01:28:27,895 --> 01:28:36,895
So it would eventually have to be – we would eventually take that – my imagination
is that we would eventually have to take that slot back and say no one is using
this.

1292
01:28:36,895 --> 01:28:38,895
I almost feel like you can have a –

1293
01:28:38,895 --> 01:28:40,895
Change the Rootstock one to the Dropzone one.

1294
01:28:40,895 --> 01:28:47,895
I almost feel like you would have a Drivechain for like an ICO and then all the
Drivechains off of that.

1295
01:28:47,895 --> 01:28:56,895
Like if a Rootstock system happened, couldn't you just do like a Drivechain with
Rootstock owning that Drivechain and then you do a bunch of sidechains off of that
sidechain?

1296
01:28:56,895 --> 01:28:57,895
You could.

1297
01:28:57,895 --> 01:28:58,895
Isn't that –

1298
01:28:58,895 --> 01:29:01,895
You could, but I mean what are these for? I mean like this –

1299
01:29:01,895 --> 01:29:02,895
ICOs?

1300
01:29:02,895 --> 01:29:05,895
It's just all for – yeah, but what are the ICOs for?

1301
01:29:05,895 --> 01:29:07,895
No, no, no, no. They're for raising money.

1302
01:29:07,895 --> 01:29:10,895
Yeah, right. That's the entire purpose.

1303
01:29:10,895 --> 01:29:12,895
So is that –

1304
01:29:12,895 --> 01:29:14,895
There's no ICOs. It's all liabilities and equity.

1305
01:29:14,895 --> 01:29:19,895
Okay. I know you're not exactly bullish on Ethereum, but you really think –

1306
01:29:19,895 --> 01:29:20,895
Dude, he's wearing an Ethereum shirt.

1307
01:29:20,895 --> 01:29:23,895
The – do you think the –

1308
01:29:23,895 --> 01:29:25,895
The quarterback for the Ethereum elephants.

1309
01:29:25,895 --> 01:29:27,895
Yeah, I see. I just noticed.

1310
01:29:27,895 --> 01:29:29,895
And we also noticed you joined the tennis team.

1311
01:29:29,895 --> 01:29:37,895
Yes, I did. That is the – that would be the Zamphire Zephyrus.

1312
01:29:37,895 --> 01:29:43,895
Nice. Nice.

1313
01:29:43,895 --> 01:29:49,895
I can only imagine Mike at Space is going to Photoshop all kinds of crazy stuff with
this.

1314
01:29:49,895 --> 01:29:52,895
Yeah, he is. It's going to be awesome.

1315
01:29:52,895 --> 01:29:56,895
Yeah, tell them that this episode is very boring. They shouldn't watch it.

1316
01:29:56,895 --> 01:29:59,895
Even though what we're going to get now.

1317
01:29:59,895 --> 01:30:01,895
Mike and Space might be our only viewer.

1318
01:30:01,895 --> 01:30:02,895
Yeah.

1319
01:30:02,895 --> 01:30:03,895
So –

1320
01:30:03,895 --> 01:30:07,895
Somehow he watches it. He's like Sauron. He just watches everything somehow.

1321
01:30:07,895 --> 01:30:09,895
How does he do that?

1322
01:30:09,895 --> 01:30:10,895
Any –

1323
01:30:10,895 --> 01:30:13,895
What does he do with his – what's his day job? He has kids. He has a family.

1324
01:30:13,895 --> 01:30:15,895
Like how does he find the time to do all this stuff?

1325
01:30:15,895 --> 01:30:18,895
He must be doing it on his car or something.

1326
01:30:18,895 --> 01:30:24,895
Well, he does his podcast to and from work. I mean he's very efficient with his
time.

1327
01:30:24,895 --> 01:30:28,895
So I guess he has a real job and he somehow – I mean like yeah, I guess so.

1328
01:30:28,895 --> 01:30:30,895
I mean I don't know how he's doing that.

1329
01:30:30,895 --> 01:30:32,895
I mean he's really into this.

1330
01:30:32,895 --> 01:30:33,895
It's impressive though.

1331
01:30:33,895 --> 01:30:34,895
It is. It's amazing.

1332
01:30:34,895 --> 01:30:37,895
I wanted to ask a quick question. You brought up Chris earlier with Drop Zone.

1333
01:30:37,895 --> 01:30:42,895
Did you see Chris's interview with the Tesos guy, Arthur?

1334
01:30:42,895 --> 01:30:44,895
No, I did not.

1335
01:30:44,895 --> 01:30:46,895
The French guy?

1336
01:30:46,895 --> 01:30:47,895
Yeah.

1337
01:30:47,895 --> 01:30:49,895
Yeah, he's sort of vaguely French, right?

1338
01:30:49,895 --> 01:30:58,895
So I met Arthur at Strange Loop in St. Louis before he did this project or he was
just starting this project out.

1339
01:30:58,895 --> 01:31:01,895
And he was telling me about O'Camel and all this stuff.

1340
01:31:01,895 --> 01:31:04,895
And he gave a talk where –

1341
01:31:04,895 --> 01:31:07,895
Yes, I can't really hear you but just keep going.

1342
01:31:07,895 --> 01:31:08,895
Perfect.

1343
01:31:08,895 --> 01:31:15,895
He gave a talk at Strange Loop and I'm pretty sure the guy was talking a million
words a minute, whatever.

1344
01:31:15,895 --> 01:31:23,895
I don't think anyone followed his logic or anything except for like maybe like two
people out of like the 200 or 300 that actually came.

1345
01:31:23,895 --> 01:31:25,895
I don't know. He had a huge freaking audience.

1346
01:31:25,895 --> 01:31:27,895
It was the only blockchain talk at Strange Loop.

1347
01:31:27,895 --> 01:31:37,895
But I feel like Chris did a really good job interviewing him and he got to the point
where he was sweating during the interview.

1348
01:31:37,895 --> 01:31:39,895
I was like really surprised about that.

1349
01:31:39,895 --> 01:31:45,895
But given that he – Chris, in my opinion, had a terrific interview with Arthur.

1350
01:31:45,895 --> 01:31:48,895
He still raised like a quarter billion dollars.

1351
01:31:48,895 --> 01:31:50,895
Largest ICO to date.

1352
01:31:50,895 --> 01:31:51,895
It's crazy, isn't it?

1353
01:31:51,895 --> 01:31:53,895
Well, is it considered an ICO?

1354
01:31:53,895 --> 01:31:55,895
It is considered an ICO. It's just not on Ethereum.

1355
01:31:55,895 --> 01:31:58,895
Yeah, it's not an ERC20. It's just separate.

1356
01:31:58,895 --> 01:32:01,895
And it's a proof-of-stake concept.

1357
01:32:01,895 --> 01:32:04,895
And I'm really confused.

1358
01:32:04,895 --> 01:32:07,895
We got to change it to ERC21.

1359
01:32:07,895 --> 01:32:13,895
Actually, I think they're up to like 24 in the actual spec because they have a
different version.

1360
01:32:13,895 --> 01:32:16,895
It could be like 400 billion.

1361
01:32:16,895 --> 01:32:18,895
So Paul –

1362
01:32:18,895 --> 01:32:20,895
Infinity plus one.

1363
01:32:20,895 --> 01:32:22,895
Yeah.

1364
01:32:22,895 --> 01:32:28,895
I think Chris and JohnSeth, when they were together, did a good job with some of
their interviews.

1365
01:32:29,895 --> 01:32:33,895
Obviously, they're really, really, really silly and inappropriate sometimes.

1366
01:32:33,895 --> 01:32:40,895
But I think they do a great job actually getting to the actual interesting points of
some of these projects pretty quickly.

1367
01:32:40,895 --> 01:32:43,895
And oh my god, it was really disheartening.

1368
01:32:43,895 --> 01:32:47,895
I went on the Tezos forum where Chris actually posted this video.

1369
01:32:47,895 --> 01:32:54,895
And everyone just wrote off Chris as a troll, which fair and different.

1370
01:32:54,895 --> 01:32:56,895
He's kind of a troll.

1371
01:32:56,895 --> 01:33:00,895
Let's say he's a troll, but I mean I couldn't believe that no one –

1372
01:33:00,895 --> 01:33:02,895
Well, a troll can make a good point.

1373
01:33:02,895 --> 01:33:06,895
Are you trying to say that it had more credibility when there was like two people
and it like –

1374
01:33:06,895 --> 01:33:09,895
How can it have more credibility with JohnSeth?

1375
01:33:09,895 --> 01:33:10,895
No, I just –

1376
01:33:10,895 --> 01:33:11,895
I mean, I don't know.

1377
01:33:11,895 --> 01:33:13,895
I guess I just want to talk about this because –

1378
01:33:13,895 --> 01:33:15,895
Take off his shirt.

1379
01:33:15,895 --> 01:33:22,895
I just want to talk about this because I was like so surprised that his video had no
effect on, in my opinion, on how much they raised.

1380
01:33:22,895 --> 01:33:24,895
It's groupthink.

1381
01:33:24,895 --> 01:33:26,895
Yeah, that is weird, isn't it?

1382
01:33:26,895 --> 01:33:27,895
Yeah.

1383
01:33:27,895 --> 01:33:35,895
Well, one weird thing is that there's a story about like the bitter Bitcoin people,
which is there's a lot of truth in it honestly.

1384
01:33:35,895 --> 01:33:37,895
Isn't it kind of weird?

1385
01:33:37,895 --> 01:33:44,895
Like all the Bitcoin people have made like huge amounts of money, some people
millions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars or whatever it is.

1386
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:52,895
And yet it's still said with some justification that it's like all these people are
bitter that they didn't invest in Ethereum.

1387
01:33:52,895 --> 01:33:56,895
Like they only made enough money to last them the rest of their lives.

1388
01:33:56,895 --> 01:34:01,895
They didn't make the Ethereum style money.

1389
01:34:01,895 --> 01:34:05,895
So therefore they're bitter, which is very funny how much truth there is in this
story.

1390
01:34:05,895 --> 01:34:14,895
But just the mere existence of this story is kind of like an instant like critical
thinking like disable lever of some kind where it's just –

1391
01:34:14,895 --> 01:34:19,895
If you criticize Ethereum at all, it kind of gives it more legitimacy because it
says it's worthy of criticism.

1392
01:34:19,895 --> 01:34:21,895
But they're just bitter.

1393
01:34:21,895 --> 01:34:34,895
So it's very much like Donald Trump kind of phenomenon I think where people would
criticize Donald Trump, but it just added fuel to the fire because that was what
people wanted was someone who would make all these leads pay attention.

1394
01:34:34,895 --> 01:34:37,895
Are you saying Chris is bitter? What are you saying?

1395
01:34:37,895 --> 01:34:44,895
No, no, no. I'm saying that there's – you were surprised that the video didn't work.

1396
01:34:44,895 --> 01:34:53,895
No, I was surprised how – I was surprised that people that were going to put money
in Tezos essentially, it seemed like they wrote off this video.

1397
01:34:53,895 --> 01:35:03,895
Well, yeah. That's what he's saying is he didn't poke any holes. The video was not
effective as a counterargument against investment in Tezos.

1398
01:35:03,895 --> 01:35:05,895
It sure seemed that way.

1399
01:35:05,895 --> 01:35:11,895
It didn't work. It wasn't persuasive. And I'm saying that there's this context of
like –

1400
01:35:11,895 --> 01:35:13,895
People don't care.

1401
01:35:14,895 --> 01:35:16,895
It's tight.

1402
01:35:16,895 --> 01:35:33,895
In addition to this story about how people – about how there's like the Bitcoin
maximalist kind of almost stigma, in addition to that story, we are living through
kind of like the dot-com era where –

1403
01:35:34,895 --> 01:35:43,895
The dot-com era, if you put dot-com on the end of something, the valuation would go
up by like a factor of three or something ridiculously stupid like that that made no
sense.

1404
01:35:43,895 --> 01:35:48,895
And we're just living through something that's very similar to that because –

1405
01:35:48,895 --> 01:35:49,895
In our case, a factor of –

1406
01:35:49,895 --> 01:35:51,895
Now you just put blockchain on something.

1407
01:35:51,895 --> 01:35:52,895
A factor of 20.

1408
01:35:52,895 --> 01:36:01,895
Yeah, but I still think we're nowhere near the insanity that's going to be in a
couple of years. I mean I still think it's going to get so much crazier. It's going
to be bananas.

1409
01:36:02,895 --> 01:36:14,895
Yeah, well, I don't know how big – someone should check and see inflation adjusted
or what have you, like how big the dot-com – what kind of pattern there was there
because now we have the same thing.

1410
01:36:14,895 --> 01:36:20,895
Well, hold on. Inflation adjusted or asset price adjusted? Because that's a big
difference right there.

1411
01:36:21,895 --> 01:36:32,895
What we have now are just these projects that are – they're not even like technology
projects at all really. They're just like companies, tech startups like any other
tech startup.

1412
01:36:33,895 --> 01:36:48,895
And that's kind of like where we are. We've regressed to just the unlicensed
security offering, and it's completely unlike what it originally was with Bitcoin,
which was like a finished product that –

1413
01:36:49,895 --> 01:37:05,895
Right. It never crowdfunded anything. Yeah, it was finished before it was worth
anything. It was a working product before it was worth even a fraction of a cent. I
mean it had no value literally for like the first year of its existence.

1414
01:37:06,895 --> 01:37:16,895
It certainly is demoralizing. I think that we can say with some justification that
you do all this work to convince people that Bitcoin is valuable, and then they just
– they don't believe you.

1415
01:37:16,895 --> 01:37:27,895
And then as soon as they believe you, they just turn right around and they say,
that's exactly why NXT is valuable or whatever. And then you have to try and say the
opposite direction.

1416
01:37:28,895 --> 01:37:39,895
And that is, I think – I don't know if we need like a – this must be like a German
word for that or something. I don't know what it is, but it's like regret upon
enlightening.

1417
01:37:40,895 --> 01:37:42,895
Yeah, the Germans have their best words for things.

1418
01:37:42,895 --> 01:37:46,895
Or something like that. And that is weird.

1419
01:37:46,895 --> 01:37:54,895
What's your theory as to how the current ICO fervor dies? Does it die due to –

1420
01:37:54,895 --> 01:37:55,895
Yeah, really good question.

1421
01:37:55,895 --> 01:37:57,895
Yeah, okay. Well, I'll let you answer.

1422
01:37:57,895 --> 01:38:09,895
I don't know. I mean it could – I mean it's weird because again, now there's not –
like normally I would say sidechains would just swoop in and kill all this stuff
eventually.

1423
01:38:09,895 --> 01:38:19,895
But now the projects are not even sidechainable because they are securities, and
they are – you know what I mean? Like they refer to like actual company.

1424
01:38:19,895 --> 01:38:20,895
Yeah, they're not actual –

1425
01:38:20,895 --> 01:38:22,895
So there's nothing to do with blockchain at all.

1426
01:38:22,895 --> 01:38:24,895
Yeah, they're not tech. They're a company.

1427
01:38:25,895 --> 01:38:34,895
So by virtue of that, the sidechain technology cannot copy them. It can't. So yeah,
it's pretty weird.

1428
01:38:34,895 --> 01:38:42,895
I think one thing would be if – well, it's hard to say. I don't know.

1429
01:38:42,895 --> 01:38:49,895
So do you think there's a chance of SEC regulation coming in and just wiping these
all out or – you know what I mean?

1430
01:38:49,895 --> 01:38:58,895
Yeah, well, they – someone – I was on the – this is definitely a – this is an
Ethereum shirt for my football team.

1431
01:38:58,895 --> 01:39:03,895
But this is also the Churchill Blurk shirt from I'm Not Your Lawyer show.

1432
01:39:03,895 --> 01:39:12,895
And the – so apparently the cycles on this stuff can be pretty long, and they want
to build the case.

1433
01:39:13,895 --> 01:39:21,895
And if they – they don't want to lose because they're setting a precedent. By they,
I refer to the district attorney and the government, the SEC.

1434
01:39:21,895 --> 01:39:22,895
Right.

1435
01:39:22,895 --> 01:39:26,895
So they will prepare the case. And then once they're prepared, they've got
everything.

1436
01:39:26,895 --> 01:39:36,895
They go in. They arrest the people. They know exactly what to say if it ever goes to
court, which it won't because they'll – the lawyer will tell them that they have no
case and that they'll lose.

1437
01:39:37,895 --> 01:39:42,895
And then they will plea out. And so apparently it takes a while.

1438
01:39:42,895 --> 01:40:01,895
I don't know what's taking it this long because some of the stuff is just obviously
just like – it doesn't even go to whether or not it could be legal or not or even
whether or not it could be seen as supporting like innovative technology or not or
whether or not this is like very, very mean of the government to do.

1439
01:40:01,895 --> 01:40:08,895
Some of this stuff is just very foolish, and I don't know how long it's going to
take.

1440
01:40:08,895 --> 01:40:12,895
Yeah, I think that will happen at some point. I'm not really doing a good job of
answering your question.

1441
01:40:12,895 --> 01:40:16,895
That will eventually happen. I mean there's a joke in econ.

1442
01:40:17,736 --> 01:40:34,736
That if something can't go on forever, it won't. So this is kind of like what Chris
and Josh have been saying, that either eventually everything will just be ICOs and
there won't even be – there will never be an IPO again.

1443
01:40:34,736 --> 01:40:43,736
There will never be like any shares. There will always be ERC-20 tokens or something
will happen that will stop that from happening.

1444
01:40:43,736 --> 01:40:51,736
Well, the question is the bubble is going to pop one way or the other, right? It's
this whole fervor around these things, at least this particular one.

1445
01:40:51,736 --> 01:40:59,736
And I have an opinion even if this one pops for some reason in like two or three
years, it will come back with a vengeance and be even more.

1446
01:40:59,736 --> 01:41:10,736
But the question is what's going to bring it down first? Is it going to be some sort
of external regulation or is it going to be just more of like the Dow where it just
falls flat on its face?

1447
01:41:10,736 --> 01:41:16,736
And just like you see epic losses and then people just get completely disinterested.

1448
01:41:16,736 --> 01:41:28,736
Very good question. I really think it's got to be the Dow type thing because this
stuff is like not – well, the ERC-20 tokens are probably hardened enough.

1449
01:41:28,736 --> 01:41:35,736
So if it's that category, then I think it will have to be regulation because there's
probably not a lot of room for error over there.

1450
01:41:35,736 --> 01:41:36,736
Yeah.

1451
01:41:36,736 --> 01:41:38,736
And if there is, there will be –

1452
01:41:38,736 --> 01:41:42,736
There's not a lot of lines of code in the ERC-20 contract.

1453
01:41:42,736 --> 01:41:44,736
That's what I imagine.

1454
01:41:44,736 --> 01:41:49,736
And if there is, it would be found as like many eyeballs, security principle.

1455
01:41:49,736 --> 01:41:54,736
And plus they're all in it together, so it would be easier to coordinate a fix if
there was a mistake.

1456
01:41:54,736 --> 01:41:56,736
So I think that one has to be –

1457
01:41:56,736 --> 01:42:01,736
If the tokens don't do anything, then you really can't mess it up.

1458
01:42:01,736 --> 01:42:06,736
Right? If the tokens don't actually do anything, you really can't mess them up.

1459
01:42:06,736 --> 01:42:09,736
Exactly, right. By virtue of their –

1460
01:42:09,736 --> 01:42:11,736
Inutility.

1461
01:42:11,736 --> 01:42:12,736
What's the word?

1462
01:42:13,736 --> 01:42:16,736
Illiotid. I don't know if that's a real word.

1463
01:42:16,736 --> 01:42:20,736
The tokens are so useless they can't even do anything.

1464
01:42:20,736 --> 01:42:25,736
They can't even. Just leave it at that. The tokens are so useless they can't even.

1465
01:42:25,736 --> 01:42:26,736
Yeah.

1466
01:42:26,736 --> 01:42:34,736
Their inability to be interesting is also their inability to be stolen at all
because they just have –

1467
01:42:34,736 --> 01:42:40,736
But that's to their credit in this weird case. So that has to be regulatory.

1468
01:42:40,736 --> 01:42:47,736
So something like Tezos where they're just like, oh, we're going to do this weird
new thing and it's got proof of stake, it's got everything.

1469
01:42:47,736 --> 01:42:50,736
I think their deal is formal proofs, right?

1470
01:42:50,736 --> 01:42:54,736
I want to ask a question. Let's say Tezos was proof of work, okay, Paul?

1471
01:42:54,736 --> 01:43:00,736
What do you think about the idea of combining – because this was my idea of it.

1472
01:43:00,736 --> 01:43:05,736
What do you think about the idea of combining version control in with the protocol
itself?

1473
01:43:05,736 --> 01:43:11,736
Because essentially that's what I got from it. I don't know if that's what you
understood or if you've looked at it.

1474
01:43:11,736 --> 01:43:14,736
I didn't really understand what you mean. What are we combining with what?

1475
01:43:14,736 --> 01:43:19,736
Version control with the actual protocol itself.

1476
01:43:19,736 --> 01:43:20,736
It's not.

1477
01:43:20,736 --> 01:43:22,736
What are we combining it with?

1478
01:43:22,736 --> 01:43:28,736
The idea where Tezos can make code changes just to be about –

1479
01:43:28,736 --> 01:43:35,736
You can change just about anything about the Tezos protocol and it's part of the
protocol.

1480
01:43:35,736 --> 01:43:36,736
What?

1481
01:43:36,736 --> 01:43:38,736
Okay, that's kind of weird.

1482
01:43:38,736 --> 01:43:42,736
No, no, I'm saying, Bill, is that not your idea of what Tezos is?

1483
01:43:42,736 --> 01:43:45,736
No, Tezos is formal validation proofs is its big thing.

1484
01:43:45,736 --> 01:43:52,736
Yeah, but the whole idea with Tezos is it's dynamic and you can change a lot of
aspects of the code without –

1485
01:43:53,736 --> 01:43:56,736
You can change a lot of things about the protocol.

1486
01:43:58,736 --> 01:44:00,736
Have you researched Tezos?

1487
01:44:00,736 --> 01:44:03,736
Not to that extent of anything you're talking about.

1488
01:44:03,736 --> 01:44:06,736
Paul, have you researched Tezos? Can you back me up on this?

1489
01:44:09,736 --> 01:44:16,736
I really don't really know, but I think I know what you're talking about, which is
this governance thing is built in.

1490
01:44:16,736 --> 01:44:18,736
They have a governance model, Tezos?

1491
01:44:18,736 --> 01:44:19,736
It changes to itself.

1492
01:44:19,736 --> 01:44:24,736
I know DFINITY has that. DFINITY, they have this neural network thing and it's –

1493
01:44:24,736 --> 01:44:27,736
All right, so first off, I don't know anything about DFINITY.

1494
01:44:27,736 --> 01:44:29,736
I'm reaching a point where they all kind of look the same to me.

1495
01:44:29,736 --> 01:44:31,736
You know how Neo says that to Agent Smith?

1496
01:44:31,736 --> 01:44:32,736
All right, all right.

1497
01:44:32,736 --> 01:44:34,736
Or he says that to Agent Smith.

1498
01:44:34,736 --> 01:44:42,736
Hold on, let's go with the assumption that protocol changes are very easy in line
with the system itself.

1499
01:44:42,736 --> 01:44:50,736
So essentially, if 51% of the stakers or whatever want to make a change to the
protocol, they just change it almost immediately.

1500
01:44:56,736 --> 01:44:59,736
Well, yeah, but you can't just say –

1501
01:44:59,736 --> 01:45:01,736
You can't do that without proof of work.

1502
01:45:04,736 --> 01:45:07,736
Well, no, I mean it's a completely different system because they're using proof of
stake.

1503
01:45:07,736 --> 01:45:09,736
I'm sorry, I thought you started the question off as –

1504
01:45:09,736 --> 01:45:15,736
Well, I guess his idea doesn't really work with proof of work because you have the
idea of miners that implement the code.

1505
01:45:15,736 --> 01:45:17,736
But if you have all the users –

1506
01:45:17,736 --> 01:45:18,736
I don't know.

1507
01:45:18,736 --> 01:45:21,736
I guess what aspect of that – because that's going to be different than Ethereum.

1508
01:45:21,736 --> 01:45:30,736
Ethereum, if it goes proof of stake, isn't going to be like, well, 51% of the
stakers can change the protocol and Tezos is going after that.

1509
01:45:30,736 --> 01:45:33,736
So the primary driver in my mind of Tezos –

1510
01:45:33,736 --> 01:45:37,736
Governance may be a characteristic of it, but it's not the primary driver of it.

1511
01:45:38,736 --> 01:45:43,736
So this is what Arthur sold it to me as when I talked to him for like two hours in
St. Louis.

1512
01:45:43,736 --> 01:45:44,736
How long ago was that?

1513
01:45:44,736 --> 01:45:46,736
I mean, you're right. It might have changed.

1514
01:45:46,736 --> 01:45:54,736
This was probably before the big formal proof validation thing came about in
Ethereum, which is a fairly recent development.

1515
01:45:54,736 --> 01:45:55,736
It's very frustrating.

1516
01:45:55,736 --> 01:45:58,736
Yeah, maybe he's changed his ideas of it.

1517
01:45:58,736 --> 01:46:04,736
But when I was talking to Arthur, it was highly based on there's this debate going
on in Bitcoin where no one can agree.

1518
01:46:04,736 --> 01:46:08,736
In his system, it would be so much easier to change the protocol if you want to
change it.

1519
01:46:08,736 --> 01:46:10,736
What you're describing sounds to me like DFINITY.

1520
01:46:10,736 --> 01:46:11,736
Because that's what they do.

1521
01:46:11,736 --> 01:46:12,736
That's their big thing.

1522
01:46:12,736 --> 01:46:13,736
One of their big things.

1523
01:46:13,736 --> 01:46:16,736
DFINITY is like half proof of work, half proof of stake?

1524
01:46:16,736 --> 01:46:17,736
No.

1525
01:46:17,736 --> 01:46:19,736
No, they use a threshold relay model.

1526
01:46:19,736 --> 01:46:20,736
It's really –

1527
01:46:20,736 --> 01:46:21,736
We can talk about –

1528
01:46:21,736 --> 01:46:23,736
Let's talk about DFINITY next week.

1529
01:46:23,736 --> 01:46:24,736
Yeah.

1530
01:46:24,736 --> 01:46:27,736
Anyway, the primary driver of Tezos –

1531
01:46:27,736 --> 01:46:29,736
If you go to their website, it doesn't say anything about governance.

1532
01:46:30,736 --> 01:46:39,736
It says it's an Ethereum-like smart contract platform that has formal validation
proofs, and that's what its deal is.

1533
01:46:39,736 --> 01:46:45,736
Well, I was asking them questions like, if you want to change the block size, how do
you do that?

1534
01:46:45,736 --> 01:46:46,736
And they're like, oh, you just do it.

1535
01:46:46,736 --> 01:46:48,736
Well, if you want to change the algorithms, how do you do that?

1536
01:46:48,736 --> 01:46:49,736
Oh, you can do it.

1537
01:46:49,736 --> 01:46:51,736
I was like, well, what if you want to go to proof of work?

1538
01:46:51,736 --> 01:46:53,736
He was like even saying, yeah, you can change anything.

1539
01:46:53,736 --> 01:46:55,736
If Ethereum becomes proof of stake, same deal with it.

1540
01:46:55,736 --> 01:46:57,736
Any proof of stake is like that.

1541
01:46:57,736 --> 01:47:00,736
No, but they're saying essentially changing the code base everyone's running.

1542
01:47:00,736 --> 01:47:01,736
Yeah.

1543
01:47:01,736 --> 01:47:03,736
You can do that with proof of stake.

1544
01:47:03,736 --> 01:47:05,736
Proof of stake, you're not going to be able to do that with Ethereum.

1545
01:47:05,736 --> 01:47:08,736
I mean you could if enough stakes switched over to run another code base.

1546
01:47:08,736 --> 01:47:12,736
No, you're just changing – you'd just be able to steal stake and change the –

1547
01:47:12,736 --> 01:47:13,736
No, but I mean –

1548
01:47:13,736 --> 01:47:16,736
You're not going to be able to change what code people are running.

1549
01:47:16,736 --> 01:47:17,736
Yeah.

1550
01:47:17,736 --> 01:47:20,736
That does sound a little bit like doing brain surgery on yourself.

1551
01:47:21,736 --> 01:47:26,736
Well, I mean what I'm saying is if 51% – so like a proof of stake 51% attack,

1552
01:47:26,736 --> 01:47:31,736
if 51% of the stake of Ethereum decided to run another code base, that becomes
Ethereum.

1553
01:47:31,736 --> 01:47:33,736
You're just changing the state of the blockchain.

1554
01:47:33,736 --> 01:47:35,736
You can't change what people are running.

1555
01:47:35,736 --> 01:47:36,736
What do you mean?

1556
01:47:36,736 --> 01:47:37,736
People change what they want to run.

1557
01:47:37,736 --> 01:47:39,736
Anybody can run whatever they want to run.

1558
01:47:39,736 --> 01:47:40,736
That's not what I'm saying.

1559
01:47:40,736 --> 01:47:41,736
All right, anyways.

1560
01:47:41,736 --> 01:47:42,736
Okay, so I think –

1561
01:47:42,736 --> 01:47:43,736
Let's move on.

1562
01:47:43,736 --> 01:47:47,736
People are talking about like you send a message across the blockchain that says
we're updating.

1563
01:47:47,736 --> 01:47:54,736
You must download this message which contains code, which contains like a Git thing
or something.

1564
01:47:54,736 --> 01:47:58,736
So my idea of Tezos was they're combining version control.

1565
01:47:58,736 --> 01:48:00,736
So now they're going to force my computer to run like arbitrary code.

1566
01:48:00,736 --> 01:48:01,736
That sounds great.

1567
01:48:01,736 --> 01:48:06,736
Well, based on the majority of what people want.

1568
01:48:06,736 --> 01:48:10,736
So essentially the way I walked away from it was I was talking to Arthur,

1569
01:48:11,736 --> 01:48:19,736
and pretty much the conclusion of our conversation was combining version control in
with the actual blockchain protocol itself.

1570
01:48:19,736 --> 01:48:21,736
So you can literally make any code change.

1571
01:48:21,736 --> 01:48:23,736
Yeah, but are you excited about this?

1572
01:48:23,736 --> 01:48:24,736
No, no, no.

1573
01:48:24,736 --> 01:48:25,736
We're scamming ourselves.

1574
01:48:25,736 --> 01:48:31,736
First off, I don't even know if this is true because both of y'all don't seem to
know what I'm talking about.

1575
01:48:31,736 --> 01:48:33,736
I haven't read about Tezos' governance model.

1576
01:48:33,736 --> 01:48:34,736
I don't know what it is.

1577
01:48:34,736 --> 01:48:38,736
Yeah, but the best thing you can do is like just stop paying attention to any of
these projects I almost feel.

1578
01:48:38,736 --> 01:48:40,736
It's hard to stop paying attention.

1579
01:48:40,736 --> 01:48:42,736
But this is after the fact.

1580
01:48:42,736 --> 01:48:44,736
Because I really like my own project a lot.

1581
01:48:44,736 --> 01:48:46,736
Well, you should launch an ICO, Paul.

1582
01:48:46,736 --> 01:48:50,736
Paul, this is after the fact of them raising a quarter billion dollars.

1583
01:48:50,736 --> 01:48:52,736
I'm not talking about this before they did that.

1584
01:48:52,736 --> 01:48:54,736
Yeah.

1585
01:48:54,736 --> 01:48:57,736
So I mean that's the only reason I'm talking about it.

1586
01:48:57,736 --> 01:48:58,736
They raised so much money.

1587
01:48:58,736 --> 01:49:04,736
They often have like whales and stuff, ringers, you know, that just cycle money in.

1588
01:49:05,736 --> 01:49:09,736
They pay them back so they don't actually have the money.

1589
01:49:09,736 --> 01:49:12,736
But it's just to make – you know, it's like a chandelier.

1590
01:49:12,736 --> 01:49:15,736
It's just to create an appearance of popularity.

1591
01:49:15,736 --> 01:49:16,736
I did want to –

1592
01:49:16,736 --> 01:49:18,736
So I don't know how much they actually raised.

1593
01:49:18,736 --> 01:49:19,736
But it's a very common practice.

1594
01:49:19,736 --> 01:49:20,736
I wonder if they're going to be able to –

1595
01:49:20,736 --> 01:49:27,736
A lot of this is – you know, I think the other thing is I've heard that a lot of
this is just people trying to launder all this money that they made.

1596
01:49:27,736 --> 01:49:30,736
People made early Bitcoin, huge amounts of early Bitcoin money.

1597
01:49:30,736 --> 01:49:31,736
Wow, there's something to be said for that.

1598
01:49:31,736 --> 01:49:35,736
I mean you could have a total ICO scam just to launder your own money.

1599
01:49:35,736 --> 01:49:36,736
Yeah.

1600
01:49:36,736 --> 01:49:40,736
And then they make a lot of money in Ethereum, and they just don't know how to get
rid of it.

1601
01:49:40,736 --> 01:49:41,736
So they just put it through –

1602
01:49:41,736 --> 01:49:42,736
They just keep making money.

1603
01:49:42,736 --> 01:49:46,736
They're trying to – they don't know what to do.

1604
01:49:46,736 --> 01:49:47,736
They just keep making more money.

1605
01:49:47,736 --> 01:49:48,736
They're trying to get rid of it.

1606
01:49:48,736 --> 01:49:50,736
They're tired of winning.

1607
01:49:50,736 --> 01:49:55,736
They're like, you know, I want to convert this million dollars, and I made $30
million trying to –

1608
01:49:57,736 --> 01:49:58,736
Yeah, that's funny.

1609
01:49:58,736 --> 01:50:01,736
It's very much like a springtime for Hitler.

1610
01:50:01,736 --> 01:50:02,736
Yeah.

1611
01:50:02,736 --> 01:50:04,736
To show the producers.

1612
01:50:04,736 --> 01:50:09,736
Yeah, the producers, where they had to make an unprofitable show in order to make a
profit.

1613
01:50:09,736 --> 01:50:13,736
It's like taking advantage of a tax scam or something, but the show ends up being a
huge hit.

1614
01:50:13,736 --> 01:50:15,736
And they go broke.

1615
01:50:17,736 --> 01:50:20,736
That's Ethereum is springtime for Hitler, I think.

1616
01:50:20,736 --> 01:50:21,736
All right.

1617
01:50:21,736 --> 01:50:27,736
So last note on that, I probably have no idea what I'm talking about as far as Tezos
is concerned.

1618
01:50:27,736 --> 01:50:28,736
We can just skip that.

1619
01:50:30,736 --> 01:50:31,736
It's big.

1620
01:50:31,736 --> 01:50:32,736
AlphaBay.

1621
01:50:32,736 --> 01:50:34,736
So here's a topic that isn't really a topic anymore.

1622
01:50:34,736 --> 01:50:37,736
AlphaBay went down for a while, and then now it's back up apparently.

1623
01:50:39,736 --> 01:50:40,736
It's back up.

1624
01:50:40,736 --> 01:50:41,736
It's back up.

1625
01:50:41,736 --> 01:50:42,736
So Paul, now that you're in Atlanta –

1626
01:50:42,736 --> 01:50:44,736
It's like playing Russian Roulette, and you didn't die.

1627
01:50:44,736 --> 01:50:47,736
But Russian Roulette is still stupid.

1628
01:50:48,736 --> 01:50:50,736
So don't leave any money on there.

1629
01:50:50,736 --> 01:50:52,736
It's only a matter of time.

1630
01:50:53,736 --> 01:50:54,736
But yeah, today –

1631
01:50:55,736 --> 01:50:57,736
I wonder how big AlphaBay is now.

1632
01:50:57,736 --> 01:50:58,736
I wonder how much they do.

1633
01:50:58,736 --> 01:50:59,736
I would love to know.

1634
01:50:59,736 --> 01:51:01,736
Yeah, I would love to know the revenue.

1635
01:51:01,736 --> 01:51:02,736
Yeah.

1636
01:51:02,736 --> 01:51:08,736
Like the Excel graph or whatever the hell it is of their – just the revenue in
dollars.

1637
01:51:08,736 --> 01:51:15,736
I would just love to see that, and I would love to just send that to the world, to
CNN or whatever.

1638
01:51:16,736 --> 01:51:24,736
That might be dangerous considering people at AlphaBay are like Russian-owned or the
Russian mafia would come after you.

1639
01:51:24,736 --> 01:51:25,736
Yeah.

1640
01:51:25,736 --> 01:51:26,736
Anyways –

1641
01:51:26,736 --> 01:51:27,736
No, no.

1642
01:51:27,736 --> 01:51:29,736
I don't need their permission or whatever.

1643
01:51:29,736 --> 01:51:30,736
Oh, okay.

1644
01:51:30,736 --> 01:51:38,736
Just send it to Gwern, darknet researcher extraordinaire, and then he can publish it
on his site.

1645
01:51:39,736 --> 01:51:44,736
Well, it would be interesting to actually see the true size of that market because
nobody really –

1646
01:51:44,736 --> 01:51:46,736
I mean they obviously know how big it is.

1647
01:51:46,736 --> 01:51:49,736
But I mean for us, we can just guess.

1648
01:51:51,736 --> 01:51:52,736
Do you want to guess?

1649
01:51:52,736 --> 01:51:54,736
We'll interview AlphaBay next week.

1650
01:51:54,736 --> 01:51:55,736
How about that?

1651
01:51:55,736 --> 01:52:01,736
Do you want to guess though just based off of what Silk Road, what Ross Albright
had, like 80 million on his laptop?

1652
01:52:01,736 --> 01:52:04,736
Yeah, I mean it's got to be –

1653
01:52:04,736 --> 01:52:05,736
It must be bigger than that.

1654
01:52:05,736 --> 01:52:06,736
Well, yeah.

1655
01:52:06,736 --> 01:52:10,736
That's the question is how much bigger is it than Silk Road?

1656
01:52:11,736 --> 01:52:17,736
Is it roughly the same size or is it triple or quadruple or ten times as big?

1657
01:52:17,736 --> 01:52:22,736
I mean you think they have made in profit –

1658
01:52:24,736 --> 01:52:25,736
God, I don't even know.

1659
01:52:25,736 --> 01:52:26,736
It could be a hundred million.

1660
01:52:26,736 --> 01:52:28,736
It could be a billion dollars.

1661
01:52:28,736 --> 01:52:30,736
God, I just have a hard time even imagining –

1662
01:52:30,736 --> 01:52:31,736
It could be ten billion.

1663
01:52:31,736 --> 01:52:32,736
I have no idea what it is.

1664
01:52:32,736 --> 01:52:33,736
A billion dollars in profit.

1665
01:52:33,736 --> 01:52:35,736
Because they're on the margin.

1666
01:52:35,736 --> 01:52:37,736
They just take the piece of the trade.

1667
01:52:37,736 --> 01:52:38,736
I don't know.

1668
01:52:39,736 --> 01:52:41,736
Ross Albright made 80 million.

1669
01:52:41,736 --> 01:52:42,736
80 million.

1670
01:52:44,736 --> 01:52:45,736
How long was Silk Road up?

1671
01:52:45,736 --> 01:52:46,736
Two, three years?

1672
01:52:46,736 --> 01:52:47,736
One sec.

1673
01:52:47,736 --> 01:52:50,736
What was the market cap of Bitcoin?

1674
01:52:50,736 --> 01:52:51,736
That's true.

1675
01:52:51,736 --> 01:52:52,736
Holy shit.

1676
01:52:52,736 --> 01:52:56,736
Because if you think about the market cap of Bitcoin and how long it took them to
acquire that 80 million versus –

1677
01:52:56,736 --> 01:52:59,736
When Ross was busted, it was like 70 bucks.

1678
01:52:59,736 --> 01:53:00,736
It was Bitcoin.

1679
01:53:00,736 --> 01:53:04,736
So in other words, it was about one-fifteenth of the price or something?

1680
01:53:04,736 --> 01:53:05,736
Or what was that?

1681
01:53:05,736 --> 01:53:06,736
Dude, it was much lower.

1682
01:53:06,736 --> 01:53:07,736
It was much lower.

1683
01:53:07,736 --> 01:53:14,736
Because if you're talking about market cap too, there were a lot less coins back
then because that was when we were still pumping out 25 per.

1684
01:53:14,736 --> 01:53:20,736
So it was like 12 million coins in circulation, something like that.

1685
01:53:20,736 --> 01:53:24,736
But I don't think it's – I think they probably get a pretty good margin out of it.

1686
01:53:24,736 --> 01:53:25,736
You know what I mean?

1687
01:53:25,736 --> 01:53:31,736
I don't think – this isn't like CVS where I've got to go and I've got to buy a
toothbrush and there's one toothbrush that looks pretty good.

1688
01:53:31,736 --> 01:53:33,736
There's one that looks basically the same.

1689
01:53:33,736 --> 01:53:34,736
And one's heroin.

1690
01:53:35,736 --> 01:53:44,736
And so it's not like we're just a comparison shop.

1691
01:53:44,736 --> 01:53:49,736
I think people just go to AlphaBay and they didn't get arrested by the police and
they just go back.

1692
01:53:49,736 --> 01:53:52,736
So I think they probably get – I don't know.

1693
01:53:52,736 --> 01:53:54,736
The margins are probably like 10 percent or something.

1694
01:53:54,736 --> 01:53:55,736
I have no idea.

1695
01:53:55,736 --> 01:53:56,736
Yeah.

1696
01:53:56,736 --> 01:53:58,736
So if they do take 10 percent on trade –

1697
01:53:58,736 --> 01:54:00,736
That's a lot on the entire throughput.

1698
01:54:00,736 --> 01:54:02,736
And how much do you think the sales are?

1699
01:54:02,736 --> 01:54:03,736
It could be in the billions.

1700
01:54:03,736 --> 01:54:04,736
I have no idea.

1701
01:54:04,736 --> 01:54:05,736
Again, right?

1702
01:54:05,736 --> 01:54:06,736
It could be in the billions.

1703
01:54:08,736 --> 01:54:09,736
It's just amazing.

1704
01:54:12,736 --> 01:54:13,736
All right.

1705
01:54:13,736 --> 01:54:18,736
Let's move on to the topic of the evening unless you don't want to keep talking
about random stuff.

1706
01:54:19,736 --> 01:54:21,736
Whatever it is, please tell me it's the last thing.

1707
01:54:21,736 --> 01:54:28,736
Actually, before we get to the last thing, Paul, now that you're in Atlanta so much,
have you been enjoying all the meetups that have been sprouting up?

1708
01:54:29,736 --> 01:54:32,736
There's been a meetup every single day of the week.

1709
01:54:32,736 --> 01:54:33,736
Every day of the week.

1710
01:54:33,736 --> 01:54:37,736
Literally, the other week, there was a meetup every day of the week.

1711
01:54:37,736 --> 01:54:38,736
Every day of the week, there's a meetup.

1712
01:54:38,736 --> 01:54:44,736
And Paul, I think this is why you relocated to Atlanta or you're now in the
southeast.

1713
01:54:44,736 --> 01:54:46,736
You're turning to the southeast because of all the meetups.

1714
01:54:46,736 --> 01:54:47,736
The meetup scene?

1715
01:54:47,736 --> 01:54:48,736
Yeah.

1716
01:54:48,736 --> 01:54:56,736
I've decided that instead of doing anything productive for society and just going to
be one of these people who just goes around to meetups, I'm going to be a
professional meeting attender.

1717
01:54:57,736 --> 01:55:01,736
And I'm going to be a professional meeting attender and I'm going to have all my
business cards.

1718
01:55:01,736 --> 01:55:05,736
I'm going to give them all out really quickly and I'm going to need to order more.

1719
01:55:05,736 --> 01:55:07,736
That's how many business cards I'm going to give out.

1720
01:55:07,736 --> 01:55:11,736
I'm going to need to order them every week because I'll be out of business cards.

1721
01:55:11,736 --> 01:55:14,736
Seriously, you should totally come down.

1722
01:55:14,736 --> 01:55:17,736
I'm going to go on LinkedIn and I'm going to friend everyone on LinkedIn.

1723
01:55:17,736 --> 01:55:22,736
Even though my profile is public and that's stupid, I'm going to friend everyone on
LinkedIn that I possibly can.

1724
01:55:22,736 --> 01:55:23,736
Don't say that, Mike.

1725
01:55:23,736 --> 01:55:24,736
I'm going to have all the LinkedIn friends.

1726
01:55:24,736 --> 01:55:28,736
So we run a meetup group of our own.

1727
01:55:28,736 --> 01:55:29,736
Who knows?

1728
01:55:29,736 --> 01:55:30,736
It's the Atlanta Blockchain.

1729
01:55:30,736 --> 01:55:32,736
Everyone knows that.

1730
01:55:32,736 --> 01:55:33,736
Yeah.

1731
01:55:33,736 --> 01:55:37,736
Paul needs to come down and do a talk on Drivechain.

1732
01:55:37,736 --> 01:55:38,736
Paul is right here.

1733
01:55:38,736 --> 01:55:40,736
Paul is giving a talk on Drivechain.

1734
01:55:40,736 --> 01:55:41,736
Any interest in doing that?

1735
01:55:41,736 --> 01:55:43,736
What day of the week is it?

1736
01:55:43,736 --> 01:55:44,736
It's Wednesdays.

1737
01:55:44,736 --> 01:55:46,736
It's like the last Wednesday of every month.

1738
01:55:46,736 --> 01:55:48,736
Or the third Wednesday, is it?

1739
01:55:48,736 --> 01:55:50,736
Paul, we'll make it any day you have.

1740
01:55:50,736 --> 01:55:51,736
It doesn't matter.

1741
01:55:52,736 --> 01:55:54,736
Yeah, Bitcoin Wednesday.

1742
01:55:54,736 --> 01:55:57,736
We can work around your schedule, Paul.

1743
01:55:57,736 --> 01:55:59,736
Bitcoin Wednesday has a quantum superposition.

1744
01:55:59,736 --> 01:56:01,736
Some places always have Bitcoin Wednesday.

1745
01:56:01,736 --> 01:56:06,736
Other places, there's no Bitcoin Wednesday.

1746
01:56:06,736 --> 01:56:07,736
Bitcoin Wednesday, though.

1747
01:56:07,736 --> 01:56:08,736
Yeah, that's us.

1748
01:56:08,736 --> 01:56:09,736
Bitcoin Wednesday.

1749
01:56:09,736 --> 01:56:10,736
Hey, I have a question.

1750
01:56:10,736 --> 01:56:11,736
Oh, is it normally?

1751
01:56:11,736 --> 01:56:12,736
Whatever.

1752
01:56:12,736 --> 01:56:13,736
I have a question for you all.

1753
01:56:13,736 --> 01:56:14,736
Yes.

1754
01:56:14,736 --> 01:56:20,736
If someone offered to give you money, would you promote their conference about
blockchain?

1755
01:56:20,736 --> 01:56:23,736
Depends on how much money, of course.

1756
01:56:23,736 --> 01:56:27,736
If it's hundreds of millions of dollars, you can donate it to Africa and save all
these lives.

1757
01:56:27,736 --> 01:56:30,736
And then you can buy all the ethical karma that you need.

1758
01:56:30,736 --> 01:56:32,736
Karma arbitrage.

1759
01:56:32,736 --> 01:56:34,736
I fully support karma arbitrage.

1760
01:56:34,736 --> 01:56:35,736
Karma arbitrage.

1761
01:56:35,736 --> 01:56:37,736
Here's another question.

1762
01:56:37,736 --> 01:56:51,736
If someone just wants you to promote their meetup where they charge money for
attendees, but yet you run a meetup where it's completely free, what would you do
about that?

1763
01:56:51,736 --> 01:56:53,736
Okay, what is it?

1764
01:56:53,736 --> 01:56:55,736
They're at the meeting at the same time?

1765
01:56:55,736 --> 01:56:56,736
They have a meetup.

1766
01:56:56,736 --> 01:56:57,736
No, no, no.

1767
01:56:57,736 --> 01:57:00,736
They have a meetup, and they have a registration fee.

1768
01:57:00,736 --> 01:57:05,736
We run the Atlanta blockchain that's completely free, and we provide beer and pizza
and stuff.

1769
01:57:05,736 --> 01:57:06,736
So we have to bribe people to come?

1770
01:57:06,736 --> 01:57:12,736
But essentially, this person wants me to advertise their meetup.

1771
01:57:12,736 --> 01:57:13,736
Would you do it?

1772
01:57:13,736 --> 01:57:14,736
Okay.

1773
01:57:14,736 --> 01:57:20,736
And this is also with the same thought process that you know they don't have the
same views of blockchain that you do.

1774
01:57:20,736 --> 01:57:22,736
You know what I'm saying?

1775
01:57:22,736 --> 01:57:24,736
Sometime, yes, I do know.

1776
01:57:24,736 --> 01:57:28,736
Because almost no one has the views of the blockchain that I have anyway.

1777
01:57:28,736 --> 01:57:32,736
So I have to deal with that every moment of every day of my existence.

1778
01:57:32,736 --> 01:57:37,736
Well, let's just say they have modern views of blockchain, less classical.

1779
01:57:37,736 --> 01:57:39,736
No, no, no, no, no.

1780
01:57:39,736 --> 01:57:41,736
Let's keep the answer.

1781
01:57:41,736 --> 01:57:44,736
I don't want him to – he knows the question.

1782
01:57:44,736 --> 01:57:46,736
Stay with the original question.

1783
01:57:46,736 --> 01:57:47,736
Okay.

1784
01:57:47,736 --> 01:57:52,736
So sometimes people like it when it costs money to charge an event because it kind
of screens people out.

1785
01:57:52,736 --> 01:57:56,736
It's kind of like a nightclub thing that charges the cover even though there's
nothing really in there.

1786
01:57:56,736 --> 01:58:00,736
It's just good because it filters out a certain type of person.

1787
01:58:00,736 --> 01:58:04,736
So some people prefer that because they're like, oh, this is a serious thing.

1788
01:58:04,736 --> 01:58:11,736
The event organizers have something to lose if it sucks, which is that they won't
get people to – so some people like that.

1789
01:58:11,736 --> 01:58:13,736
And other people don't like that at all.

1790
01:58:13,736 --> 01:58:16,736
Like if you give the pizza, it's like sad.

1791
01:58:16,736 --> 01:58:18,736
I mean I'm sure everyone comes and eats all the pizza.

1792
01:58:18,736 --> 01:58:19,736
Do you have pizza left over?

1793
01:58:19,736 --> 01:58:21,736
That's the ultimate burnout for all of us.

1794
01:58:21,736 --> 01:58:22,736
Pizza goes pretty quick.

1795
01:58:22,736 --> 01:58:24,736
Yeah, we try to order it.

1796
01:58:24,736 --> 01:58:25,736
Yes, that's good.

1797
01:58:25,736 --> 01:58:27,736
So yeah, I think you're doing it right.

1798
01:58:27,736 --> 01:58:29,736
They might want a different thing.

1799
01:58:29,736 --> 01:58:31,736
I mean how much are they charging?

1800
01:58:31,736 --> 01:58:34,736
Because it will be like an outright fraud at some point.

1801
01:58:34,736 --> 01:58:43,736
It's just like charging – you get something when you buy the consensus ticket for
like $2,000.

1802
01:58:43,736 --> 01:58:45,736
I don't know what you get, but you get something.

1803
01:58:45,736 --> 01:58:52,736
I guess what I'm really wondering, should we be charging a cover for our meetups if
everyone else is doing it?

1804
01:58:52,736 --> 01:59:02,736
You know, maybe if lots of people come and if the pizza sells out, that would
indicate that you have demand.

1805
01:59:02,736 --> 01:59:04,736
All right, well, that was some random –

1806
01:59:04,736 --> 01:59:06,736
People come, do you get sponsors?

1807
01:59:06,736 --> 01:59:08,736
Yeah, no, we got sponsors.

1808
01:59:08,736 --> 01:59:09,736
Tyrion is one of our sponsors.

1809
01:59:09,736 --> 01:59:10,736
We have Tyrion.

1810
01:59:10,736 --> 01:59:12,736
We have for a little while Shapeshift.

1811
01:59:12,736 --> 01:59:14,736
We have some random guy.

1812
01:59:14,736 --> 01:59:15,736
Some random guy.

1813
01:59:15,736 --> 01:59:16,736
Some random guy.

1814
01:59:16,736 --> 01:59:18,736
Like literally a random guy.

1815
01:59:18,736 --> 01:59:20,736
He's like a – what is he, an accountant?

1816
01:59:20,736 --> 01:59:21,736
He was a CPA.

1817
01:59:21,736 --> 01:59:22,736
He was a CPA.

1818
01:59:22,736 --> 01:59:23,736
He's a CPA.

1819
01:59:23,736 --> 01:59:28,736
He sponsored our meetup for like six months because he wants to meet people on
blockchain.

1820
01:59:28,736 --> 01:59:30,736
Oh, that's cool.

1821
01:59:30,736 --> 01:59:32,736
And let's see.

1822
01:59:32,736 --> 01:59:35,736
Oh, gee, we have a barber shop.

1823
01:59:35,736 --> 01:59:36,736
All right.

1824
01:59:36,736 --> 01:59:37,736
What's enough about that?

1825
01:59:37,736 --> 01:59:43,736
Let's talk about the topic of tonight, why everyone listens to our podcast, the
controversial stuff.

1826
01:59:43,736 --> 01:59:45,736
We leave it for the end.

1827
01:59:45,736 --> 01:59:47,736
How long has this been slugging?

1828
01:59:47,736 --> 01:59:48,736
Two hours.

1829
01:59:48,736 --> 01:59:50,736
Like two and a half hours.

1830
01:59:50,736 --> 01:59:57,736
Well, I mean, Paul, if we put the interesting stuff at the beginning, then people
are going to take snippets and put them on Reddit and everyone gets in trouble.

1831
01:59:57,736 --> 02:00:00,736
So I want to start putting the good stuff at the very end.

1832
02:00:00,736 --> 02:00:02,736
We're going to hide them strategically.

1833
02:00:02,736 --> 02:00:05,736
We'll hide them strategically like in the middle to end portion.

1834
02:00:05,736 --> 02:00:06,736
Yeah.

1835
02:00:06,736 --> 02:00:08,736
And then you can just – you can be like Mike at Space.

1836
02:00:08,736 --> 02:00:10,736
You can just put a black – oh, no, Brian Hoffman.

1837
02:00:10,736 --> 02:00:11,736
Excuse me.

1838
02:00:11,736 --> 02:00:13,736
Mike at Space's videos are perfectly edited.

1839
02:00:13,736 --> 02:00:18,736
Brian Hoffman occasionally just leaves the black two minutes at the end.

1840
02:00:19,736 --> 02:00:20,736
That's his troll.

1841
02:00:20,736 --> 02:00:23,736
So the entire video is like 11 and a half hours long.

1842
02:00:23,736 --> 02:00:25,736
So like 10.

1843
02:00:25,736 --> 02:00:26,736
Okay.

1844
02:00:26,736 --> 02:00:28,736
So let's get to the rumor mill.

1845
02:00:28,736 --> 02:00:32,736
So we talked about UASF earlier.

1846
02:00:32,736 --> 02:00:35,736
I think we kind of alluded to something being up Coors Sleeve.

1847
02:00:35,736 --> 02:00:38,736
I've heard rumors and I –

1848
02:00:38,736 --> 02:00:41,736
I just want to tell everyone that I often cannot hear anything they're saying.

1849
02:00:41,736 --> 02:00:44,736
Sometimes I just have to guess based on context clues.

1850
02:00:45,736 --> 02:00:50,736
And I heard something like I think Coors Sleeve and there's a conspiracy,

1851
02:00:50,736 --> 02:00:51,736
something like that.

1852
02:00:51,736 --> 02:00:54,736
So if I say anything to offend anyone,

1853
02:00:54,736 --> 02:00:58,736
I just want blanket immunity for everything I ever said

1854
02:00:58,736 --> 02:01:03,736
because I don't even know what I'm talking about or what is even going on.

1855
02:01:03,736 --> 02:01:05,736
All right. All right. All right. All right.

1856
02:01:05,736 --> 02:01:06,736
Luckily, they are back.

1857
02:01:06,736 --> 02:01:09,736
They're back to their normal terrible video quality.

1858
02:01:09,736 --> 02:01:12,736
For a while they were, oh, my god, it just happened again.

1859
02:01:12,736 --> 02:01:16,736
When all the color washes out, somehow I don't even get –

1860
02:01:16,736 --> 02:01:20,736
it's like having a non-color television.

1861
02:01:20,736 --> 02:01:25,736
Like I don't even know how that –

1862
02:01:25,736 --> 02:01:27,736
I mean I'm plugged into the Ethernet.

1863
02:01:27,736 --> 02:01:28,736
I'm plugged into the Ethernet.

1864
02:01:28,736 --> 02:01:29,736
All right.

1865
02:01:29,736 --> 02:01:30,736
Maybe that helps.

1866
02:01:30,736 --> 02:01:32,736
I just took us off.

1867
02:01:32,736 --> 02:01:33,736
Now I do.

1868
02:01:33,736 --> 02:01:34,736
Yes, I do.

1869
02:01:34,736 --> 02:01:35,736
Yes, that does help.

1870
02:01:35,736 --> 02:01:36,736
All right.

1871
02:01:36,736 --> 02:01:38,736
Now I just see a smiling Ronald McDonald photograph.

1872
02:01:38,736 --> 02:01:39,736
All right.

1873
02:01:39,736 --> 02:01:41,736
So maybe we should have done that a long time ago.

1874
02:01:41,736 --> 02:01:44,736
Yeah, and actually that does help with audio a lot.

1875
02:01:44,736 --> 02:01:48,736
I just can't see any of your faces at all.

1876
02:01:48,736 --> 02:01:50,736
So now I don't know any of your facial expressions.

1877
02:01:50,736 --> 02:01:52,736
Just imagine us just laughing hysterically.

1878
02:01:52,736 --> 02:01:53,736
All right.

1879
02:01:53,736 --> 02:02:01,736
So the rumor being Core potentially if they UASF off,

1880
02:02:01,736 --> 02:02:08,736
they're going to change the algorithm and use MimbleWimble.

1881
02:02:08,736 --> 02:02:09,736
Oh, yeah.

1882
02:02:09,736 --> 02:02:11,736
Well, here's the thing.

1883
02:02:11,736 --> 02:02:14,736
I agree with the Nakamoto Institute.

1884
02:02:14,736 --> 02:02:15,736
You guys know who those guys are, right?

1885
02:02:15,736 --> 02:02:16,736
Yeah.

1886
02:02:16,736 --> 02:02:17,736
No, I don't.

1887
02:02:17,736 --> 02:02:18,736
Really?

1888
02:02:18,736 --> 02:02:19,736
Okay.

1889
02:02:19,736 --> 02:02:21,736
Well, there's basically some cool people who are –

1890
02:02:21,736 --> 02:02:27,736
they're kind of more my style of kind of more like investor,

1891
02:02:27,736 --> 02:02:33,736
definitely kind of like the economist style type thing.

1892
02:02:33,736 --> 02:02:37,736
Certainly Dan Krawitz is very Austrian and proud of that.

1893
02:02:37,736 --> 02:02:41,736
But just basically we're kind of all inventing our new economics here

1894
02:02:41,736 --> 02:02:44,736
because this is an uncharted territory.

1895
02:02:44,736 --> 02:02:47,736
But they're more like the kind of – they represent kind of the investors,

1896
02:02:47,736 --> 02:02:49,736
I feel, of Bitcoin,

1897
02:02:49,736 --> 02:02:57,736
whereas the core devs represent the technical, the makers and the maintainers,

1898
02:02:57,736 --> 02:03:01,736
the people who fix bugs and they do a great job and everything like that.

1899
02:03:01,736 --> 02:03:06,736
But the Nakamoto Institute, there's an essay which is like it's about the money,

1900
02:03:06,736 --> 02:03:08,736
and it's not really about the tech.

1901
02:03:08,736 --> 02:03:15,736
So my concern is that anyone who feels that this is a viable strategy,

1902
02:03:15,736 --> 02:03:18,736
that we can redo everything now that we know what to do with MimboWimbo

1903
02:03:18,736 --> 02:03:21,736
and we'll do it all right this time,

1904
02:03:21,736 --> 02:03:29,736
my concern is that they won't have any respect for what that type of decision would
imply,

1905
02:03:29,736 --> 02:03:33,736
which is that – this is weird because now I can't see either of them at all

1906
02:03:33,736 --> 02:03:35,736
because I'm just staring at a blank thing.

1907
02:03:35,736 --> 02:03:36,736
I don't even know if anyone's –

1908
02:03:36,736 --> 02:03:39,736
We're hearing you. We're hearing you. We're listening intently.

1909
02:03:39,736 --> 02:03:42,736
Okay. Great.

1910
02:03:42,736 --> 02:03:50,736
So the point is that you have to have some respect for the fact that this was
pitched as money,

1911
02:03:50,736 --> 02:03:55,736
and you can't just go around changing it because you think you have a good reason.

1912
02:03:56,736 --> 02:04:01,736
It's similar to the case where the miners go back and just start stealing from old,

1913
02:04:01,736 --> 02:04:07,736
months-old SegWit outputs where it implies that you're going to –

1914
02:04:07,736 --> 02:04:11,736
there's nothing to say that you won't do this yet again.

1915
02:04:11,736 --> 02:04:14,736
It's a violation of the contract is what you're saying, not the –

1916
02:04:14,736 --> 02:04:15,736
It absolutely is.

1917
02:04:15,736 --> 02:04:21,736
So if someone were to say, okay, we'll do this the right way with MimboWimbo,

1918
02:04:21,736 --> 02:04:25,736
what's to say that seven or eight years after that,

1919
02:04:25,736 --> 02:04:30,736
there isn't some disagreement between whatever it is, Andrew Poelstra and Greg
Maxwell,

1920
02:04:30,736 --> 02:04:34,736
and then they create like MimboWimbo squared or whatever,

1921
02:04:34,736 --> 02:04:36,736
and they say, now we've got the opportunity to do it right.

1922
02:04:36,736 --> 02:04:42,736
I don't think people really understand what kind of staying power the very first one
has

1923
02:04:42,736 --> 02:04:46,736
because only one person can be first, and that makes it unique.

1924
02:04:46,736 --> 02:04:52,736
But many people can be second, especially if they are derivatives of a first thing.

1925
02:04:52,736 --> 02:04:54,736
And many people can be not first.

1926
02:04:54,736 --> 02:04:58,736
So being first is constant.

1927
02:04:58,736 --> 02:05:03,736
So if they did forge MimboWimbo, I'd have a hard time calling that Bitcoin.

1928
02:05:03,736 --> 02:05:05,736
What would you call it, Paul?

1929
02:05:05,736 --> 02:05:07,736
Hey, let me ask you a question, Paul.

1930
02:05:07,736 --> 02:05:11,736
Is SHA-256 necessary for Bitcoin?

1931
02:05:11,736 --> 02:05:15,736
I think just because—

1932
02:05:16,221 --> 02:05:24,221
while the old chain lives, it will be like kind of Bitcoin for a really long time
unless something really extreme happens.

1933
02:05:24,221 --> 02:05:39,221
And so since the old chain was started with double-shot 256 mining, I think that is
what defines Bitcoin, part of what defines Bitcoin right now.

1934
02:05:40,221 --> 02:05:57,221
Well, yeah. I would say the only—for me at least, speaking for myself, the only
condition that you could still have a Bitcoin if you change the mining algo is if
the miners decided they wanted to up the supply curve and they wanted to issue
themselves more Bitcoins.

1935
02:05:57,221 --> 02:05:59,221
Then that would justify—

1936
02:05:59,221 --> 02:06:01,221
Well, if the miners want to break any rule—

1937
02:06:01,221 --> 02:06:02,221
Yeah.

1938
02:06:02,221 --> 02:06:03,221
It's not Bitcoin.

1939
02:06:03,221 --> 02:06:12,221
Well, hold on because then that could go to the one megabyte rule if you define it
that strictly. Then if they raise it to two megabytes, is that still Bitcoin? I mean
I would say yeah.

1940
02:06:13,221 --> 02:06:32,221
I think I am comfortable making the definition that strict. And what I'm just going
to say is if we switch from one megabyte Bitcoin to something else and we buy our
hard fork, I think that really is—if anything, that's Bitcoin 2.0.

1941
02:06:32,221 --> 02:06:36,221
You're saying that the original Bitcoin had some deficiency and we're throwing it
away.

1942
02:06:36,221 --> 02:06:40,221
But it's still Bitcoin. I mean I don't—to me it is. To me it's still Bitcoin.

1943
02:06:40,221 --> 02:06:41,221
Well, hold on.

1944
02:06:41,221 --> 02:06:46,221
Versus bimbo-wimbo would be something else. I mean it would—I think it would be cool
to have—

1945
02:06:46,221 --> 02:06:47,221
Yeah.

1946
02:06:47,221 --> 02:06:49,221
Paul, did you just say that—

1947
02:06:49,221 --> 02:06:51,221
It's so alien. It's so weird.

1948
02:06:51,221 --> 02:06:57,221
Paul, did you just say that Bitcoin, if it goes two megabyte blocks, would be like a
Bitcoin 2.0? Is that—did I hear that right?

1949
02:06:57,221 --> 02:06:59,221
He's saying the new chain isn't the same.

1950
02:06:59,221 --> 02:07:04,221
If we upgrade via a hard fork, it is no longer—we've discarded Bitcoin 1.0.

1951
02:07:04,221 --> 02:07:05,221
But wasn't it—

1952
02:07:05,221 --> 02:07:06,221
I'd agree with that.

1953
02:07:06,221 --> 02:07:08,221
It's a failure in some way.

1954
02:07:08,221 --> 02:07:09,221
But wouldn't you say that—

1955
02:07:09,221 --> 02:07:11,221
There's nothing really wrong with that, you know.

1956
02:07:11,221 --> 02:07:21,221
But wouldn't you say that Bitcoin was already a failure with some kind of, you know,
denial of service issue where they had them put that cap on originally?

1957
02:07:21,221 --> 02:07:25,221
Or what was the original purpose of the one megabyte cap? Because wasn't that a hard
fork when they—

1958
02:07:25,221 --> 02:07:26,221
No.

1959
02:07:26,221 --> 02:07:27,221
It was a soft fork?

1960
02:07:27,221 --> 02:07:28,221
Yeah, it was a soft fork.

1961
02:07:28,221 --> 02:07:30,221
No, when it was added, it was a soft fork.

1962
02:07:30,221 --> 02:07:31,221
There was no—

1963
02:07:31,221 --> 02:07:32,221
It was added by Satoshi.

1964
02:07:32,221 --> 02:07:34,221
There was no block over a megabyte until that point?

1965
02:07:34,221 --> 02:07:39,221
You can always restrict. You can add a rule that restricts, and that's what they
did. They added a rule that restricted.

1966
02:07:39,221 --> 02:07:46,221
What did they—why wasn't there one block over one megabyte? There just wasn't anyone
who spammed the blockchain, or—

1967
02:07:46,221 --> 02:07:48,221
No, you can't. I mean—

1968
02:07:48,221 --> 02:07:51,221
There wasn't like a miner who said, oh, I want to mine this crazy—

1969
02:07:51,221 --> 02:07:55,221
You're talking about before, like before the institute, the one megabyte block size?

1970
02:07:55,221 --> 02:07:56,221
Mm-hmm.

1971
02:07:56,221 --> 02:07:58,221
It was just luck, pretty much?

1972
02:07:58,221 --> 02:08:00,221
No, I mean, there wasn't any transactions.

1973
02:08:00,221 --> 02:08:02,221
It doesn't matter. I'm just saying.

1974
02:08:03,221 --> 02:08:06,221
Wait, when did they put the one megabyte block—

1975
02:08:06,221 --> 02:08:09,221
I think 2011 or some shit.

1976
02:08:09,221 --> 02:08:11,221
July 2010.

1977
02:08:11,221 --> 02:08:15,221
2010. So it was like before there was—July? Holy shit, there was nothing.

1978
02:08:15,221 --> 02:08:20,221
So you're saying that that's a defining characteristic of Bitcoin 1.0 is the one
megabyte block.

1979
02:08:20,221 --> 02:08:22,221
Well, yeah, but he's just saying 1.0. He's saying that—

1980
02:08:22,221 --> 02:08:23,221
I know.

1981
02:08:23,221 --> 02:08:29,221
That doesn't matter much, right? It's just that's where you draw the line. That's
1.0, and this is 2.0. Is that right?

1982
02:08:30,221 --> 02:08:35,221
I'm saying the hard fork is where I draw the line, but you're right. It's not
actually a hard fork.

1983
02:08:35,221 --> 02:08:40,221
If you ran software that was before 2010, it would just be a nothing to you.

1984
02:08:40,221 --> 02:08:42,221
Right, that's true.

1985
02:08:42,221 --> 02:08:53,221
You're correctly implying that by me endorsing this definition, I'm handcuffing
myself to the railroad tracks of wherever I'm led by this soft fork parade.

1986
02:08:53,221 --> 02:08:59,221
Every single soft fork, I have to admit, that breaking it would destroy my
definition.

1987
02:08:59,221 --> 02:09:04,221
And I'm not comfortable with that, and I don't unconditionally endorse that.

1988
02:09:04,221 --> 02:09:11,221
So it's more—the relationship between a soft—and the way I see it, the soft fork is
really about what's allowed.

1989
02:09:11,221 --> 02:09:16,221
And if the same amount of stuff is allowed, then it's soft.

1990
02:09:16,221 --> 02:09:20,221
But I wrote a blog post about this because it's so weird.

1991
02:09:21,221 --> 02:09:26,221
There are actually several different things at once, different dimensions.

1992
02:09:26,221 --> 02:09:32,221
And hard fork is kind of whether or not a new network is created.

1993
02:09:32,221 --> 02:09:36,221
But then if it's not hard, it's sort of considered to be soft.

1994
02:09:36,221 --> 02:09:41,221
But then if it's soft, it can still vary on two other dimensions.

1995
02:09:42,221 --> 02:09:44,221
One is how much stuff is allowed.

1996
02:09:44,221 --> 02:09:54,221
And the second is, even if everything is still allowed, how much anxiety or pressure
you feel to upgrade your own software and how kind of coerced you are by the—

1997
02:09:54,221 --> 02:09:55,221
Right.

1998
02:09:55,221 --> 02:10:06,221
So my point is that adding the one megabyte limit is not really a—it is technically
a soft fork, but it's really more of what I call a mean fork.

1999
02:10:06,221 --> 02:10:12,221
It's something that dramatically constrains the user's ability to act.

2000
02:10:12,221 --> 02:10:20,221
And so there's nothing like—I mean, we could have a soft fork that was just a 51
percent attack of just permanently mining empty blocks.

2001
02:10:20,221 --> 02:10:23,221
And that would be a soft fork that you can't include transactions.

2002
02:10:23,221 --> 02:10:24,221
Right.

2003
02:10:24,221 --> 02:10:27,221
But you understand that, of course, that would not really be a protocol upgrade.

2004
02:10:27,221 --> 02:10:29,221
That would just be like lunacy.

2005
02:10:29,221 --> 02:10:31,221
So there's a lot of nuance to the question.

2006
02:10:31,221 --> 02:10:33,221
But it would still be a soft fork.

2007
02:10:33,221 --> 02:10:38,221
If the miners and the developers both agree that should be done, that's it.

2008
02:10:38,221 --> 02:10:39,221
Right.

2009
02:10:39,221 --> 02:10:43,221
The rules could be tightened so much that the system just doesn't do anything
anymore.

2010
02:10:43,221 --> 02:10:44,221
Yeah.

2011
02:10:44,221 --> 02:10:48,221
You could even—it's technically a soft fork that you just never find another block.

2012
02:10:48,221 --> 02:10:50,221
Yeah, you could totally do that.

2013
02:10:50,221 --> 02:10:56,221
It's a weird rule that they have to have like 400 consecutive prime integers, like
more than whatever, and they never do.

2014
02:10:56,221 --> 02:11:03,221
Well, yeah, you could hard fork the difficulty up to an unrealistic level that you
could never, ever possibly meet.

2015
02:11:03,221 --> 02:11:07,221
You could say all zeros on the difficulty and, well, there you go.

2016
02:11:07,221 --> 02:11:08,221
That's a soft fork.

2017
02:11:08,221 --> 02:11:10,221
So that's what I mean.

2018
02:11:10,221 --> 02:11:14,221
So when I say that it's a more nuanced question than just tightening or loosening
the rules.

2019
02:11:14,221 --> 02:11:22,221
You can even, as Peter Todd is one of the many people, but lots of people discovered
it independently before he published.

2020
02:11:23,221 --> 02:11:36,221
You can even do the evil fork where you tighten the rules permanently, but you add
an escape door that has a totally new set of rules, and you've basically added
rules.

2021
02:11:36,221 --> 02:11:38,221
Well, that's kind of what SegWit does.

2022
02:11:38,221 --> 02:11:41,221
I mean it's extension blocks in general.

2023
02:11:41,221 --> 02:11:42,221
No.

2024
02:11:42,221 --> 02:11:44,221
I mean it's not evil, but—

2025
02:11:44,221 --> 02:11:49,221
Because you can still transact the old way, whereas in the evil fork you can't.

2026
02:11:49,221 --> 02:11:50,221
Oh, I got you.

2027
02:11:50,221 --> 02:11:56,221
Because you've locked out the old way because you've restricted it so much you can't
possibly—okay, now I get it.

2028
02:11:56,221 --> 02:12:01,221
That's why it's 100% mean, just like the 51% denial of service empty blocks.

2029
02:12:01,221 --> 02:12:03,221
Those would be 100% mean.

2030
02:12:03,221 --> 02:12:04,221
Right, right.

2031
02:12:04,221 --> 02:12:05,221
Those are 100% mean.

2032
02:12:05,221 --> 02:12:06,221
It's very mean.

2033
02:12:06,221 --> 02:12:10,221
It's at least 31, 30 seconds mean because—

2034
02:12:10,221 --> 02:12:18,221
In that case, I would qualify SegWit as at least partially mean because what it does
is it offers a discount to SegWit transaction, which makes them take up more of the
block.

2035
02:12:19,221 --> 02:12:24,221
So the other dimension I had was loudness, and I say SegWit is not very mean at all.

2036
02:12:24,221 --> 02:12:25,221
It's not very mean, but it's—

2037
02:12:25,221 --> 02:12:32,221
It's a little mean, but it's mostly loud because it introduces this anxiety that you
should upgrade even though you're allowed to transact the old way.

2038
02:12:32,221 --> 02:12:39,221
You're allowed, but you feel bad about—you might need to—

2039
02:12:39,221 --> 02:12:40,221
You're anxious.

2040
02:12:40,221 --> 02:12:41,221
Not transact.

2041
02:12:41,221 --> 02:12:42,221
Yeah.

2042
02:12:42,221 --> 02:12:50,221
Eventually, your counterparties might tell you, and they might say, I only want to
be paid through the Lightning Network or through SegWit, and then you basically have
to upgrade.

2043
02:12:50,221 --> 02:12:51,221
Right.

2044
02:12:51,221 --> 02:12:54,221
So then there's the loudness.

2045
02:12:54,221 --> 02:12:55,221
Coercion is a funny thing.

2046
02:12:55,221 --> 02:12:58,221
Upgrade was passive, but it's yelling at you this whole time.

2047
02:12:58,221 --> 02:13:03,221
Coercion is a funny thing because it's not a 100% you have to do that.

2048
02:13:03,221 --> 02:13:09,221
You have a gun to your head, but it's prodding along a little bit at a time.

2049
02:13:09,221 --> 02:13:11,221
It's these ecological effects.

2050
02:13:11,221 --> 02:13:12,221
Exactly.

2051
02:13:12,221 --> 02:13:13,221
It's the environment.

2052
02:13:13,221 --> 02:13:15,221
It's the environment.

2053
02:13:15,221 --> 02:13:19,221
In a soft fork like SegWit, it doesn't change.

2054
02:13:19,221 --> 02:13:27,221
Yeah, you can totally run your own software on your node, and it totally executes
the same rules, but the network that you connect to has fundamentally changed in a
very large way.

2055
02:13:27,221 --> 02:13:34,221
So it's not the same Bitcoin you were running before because the rest of the nodes
don't act in the same manner.

2056
02:13:34,221 --> 02:13:35,221
Exactly.

2057
02:13:35,221 --> 02:13:37,221
The meanness slowly deletes the definition.

2058
02:13:37,221 --> 02:13:38,221
Yeah.

2059
02:13:38,221 --> 02:13:46,221
You could do a mean fork of Bitcoin that has no messages, so like the 51% attack, a
mean fork that just tightens everything to zero.

2060
02:13:46,221 --> 02:13:49,221
And you can do the exact same fork to Ethereum.

2061
02:13:49,221 --> 02:13:52,221
And at that point, the two would basically be the same.

2062
02:13:52,221 --> 02:13:59,221
They have different mining systems, a different timing, interblock time or
something.

2063
02:13:59,221 --> 02:14:03,221
But functionally, they'd be the same to the user.

2064
02:14:03,221 --> 02:14:07,221
And this goes to your question about how do you define Bitcoin.

2065
02:14:07,221 --> 02:14:22,221
What the mean fork does is just kind of dim the lights and just eventually get to a
totally dark room where there is no definition of anything because all the stuff has
just been cut out.

2066
02:14:22,221 --> 02:14:26,221
So that's kind of a weird thing.

2067
02:14:26,221 --> 02:14:28,221
But yeah, I'm not happy about the fact that I would be.

2068
02:14:29,221 --> 02:14:31,221
The soft fork you can't prevent.

2069
02:14:31,221 --> 02:14:35,221
As far as you know, the miners have been doing it since the dawn of time.

2070
02:14:35,221 --> 02:14:36,221
You just don't really know.

2071
02:14:36,221 --> 02:14:39,221
They just have a really complicated version.

2072
02:14:39,221 --> 02:14:40,221
Oh, that's true.

2073
02:14:40,221 --> 02:14:46,221
Sometimes we do it on the fourth Tuesday of every week and whatever.

2074
02:14:46,221 --> 02:14:49,221
Miners could be running any rules.

2075
02:14:49,221 --> 02:14:55,221
If miners were colluding, they could run any arbitrary rules via soft fork as long
as it's a tightening, right?

2076
02:14:55,221 --> 02:15:02,221
And you wouldn't even know that those rules are in place because you're not running
the software, right?

2077
02:15:04,221 --> 02:15:05,221
Yes.

2078
02:15:05,221 --> 02:15:07,221
But your original question was how do I define?

2079
02:15:07,221 --> 02:15:10,221
Do I just double shot to 56?

2080
02:15:10,221 --> 02:15:11,221
A part of Bitcoin?

2081
02:15:11,221 --> 02:15:13,221
My original question.

2082
02:15:14,221 --> 02:15:15,221
Yes.

2083
02:15:15,221 --> 02:15:17,221
So I'll take that.

2084
02:15:17,221 --> 02:15:18,221
Wait, so I'll take that.

2085
02:15:18,221 --> 02:15:20,221
Wait, that was your original question.

2086
02:15:20,221 --> 02:15:22,221
I know because I'm pretty sure.

2087
02:15:22,221 --> 02:15:28,221
Well, I guess what I'm really curious about now is ever hard fork?

2088
02:15:28,221 --> 02:15:33,221
Because I know you're kind of painting a picture where you're pro soft fork.

2089
02:15:33,221 --> 02:15:35,221
Yes, I'm against the hard fork.

2090
02:15:35,221 --> 02:15:38,221
But if we need a hard fork, we need one.

2091
02:15:38,221 --> 02:15:40,221
But I don't think we need one right now.

2092
02:15:40,221 --> 02:15:45,221
I kind of like the precedence of the hard fork sets that we can hard fork.

2093
02:15:45,221 --> 02:16:01,221
Because otherwise, if we get into a situation, if we've never hard forked since
Bitcoin's been basically a thing, then it's just going to be much, much worse when
we do have to do it.

2094
02:16:01,221 --> 02:16:05,221
The stakes will just get higher and higher and higher as time goes by.

2095
02:16:05,221 --> 02:16:08,221
That's what concerns me is if we refuse to ever hard fork.

2096
02:16:09,221 --> 02:16:11,221
I think that's Peter Todd's secret plan.

2097
02:16:11,221 --> 02:16:15,221
It's just we'll delay the hard fork forever and then we'll just never be able to do
it.

2098
02:16:15,221 --> 02:16:20,221
I think sidechains can be a part of this.

2099
02:16:20,221 --> 02:16:23,221
We want to have part of the protocol that is sort of guaranteed.

2100
02:16:23,221 --> 02:16:30,221
We say, look, no matter what happens, you'll be able to rely on this thing to be
digital gold.

2101
02:16:30,221 --> 02:16:32,221
And it will have these properties that don't change.

2102
02:16:33,221 --> 02:16:41,221
And then the sidechains can be totally free, experiment, do whatever you want,
really weird stuff on there.

2103
02:16:41,221 --> 02:16:44,221
And you can hard fork or soft fork those to your heart's content.

2104
02:16:44,221 --> 02:16:46,221
So I think that's something that we want.

2105
02:16:46,221 --> 02:17:00,221
My position has always been, ever since the advent of Segregated Witness and the
Lightning Network and that whole plan, I've always been in favor of that in general
terms.

2106
02:17:01,221 --> 02:17:07,221
But I think that the on-chain network has to scale along with it in order to make it
viable.

2107
02:17:07,221 --> 02:17:16,221
You can't just leave a static block size amount because it wreaks havoc on the
incentives.

2108
02:17:16,221 --> 02:17:18,221
I agree, but my point is you can do it with sidechains.

2109
02:17:18,221 --> 02:17:19,221
Right. No, no, no.

2110
02:17:19,221 --> 02:17:27,221
So that's what I was getting to is I like the sidechains aspect because I consider
that to be on-chain scaling.

2111
02:17:28,221 --> 02:17:34,221
It's a layer two of Bitcoin Core, the mainchain, but it's a layer one of itself.

2112
02:17:34,221 --> 02:17:41,221
Well, I don't consider tier two itself, Lightning Network tier two, to be Bitcoin
proper.

2113
02:17:41,221 --> 02:17:45,221
It exists above it. It's a bolt-on layer.

2114
02:17:45,221 --> 02:17:50,221
And I understand it's proofs. It's all theoretical transactions, but it's still not…

2115
02:17:50,221 --> 02:17:57,221
I agree with you. There's a lot of weird equivocation going on where people say it
is a Bitcoin transaction.

2116
02:17:57,221 --> 02:18:01,221
I actually had that argument with Greg Maxwell two years ago and I was like, no,
it's not.

2117
02:18:01,221 --> 02:18:06,221
I know, but they're not. The process of a Bitcoin transaction is what they are.

2118
02:18:06,221 --> 02:18:07,221
Speaking of Greg Maxwell…

2119
02:18:07,221 --> 02:18:14,221
Byte for byte they are. I agree with you that it's a false equivalence. They say
that it's a Bitcoin transaction.

2120
02:18:15,221 --> 02:18:17,221
It structurally is a Bitcoin transaction.

2121
02:18:17,221 --> 02:18:21,221
If it's a true two-way peg sidechain, I consider that on-chain.

2122
02:18:21,221 --> 02:18:26,221
Frankly, I think the Lightning Network is better than regular Bitcoin transactions.

2123
02:18:26,221 --> 02:18:30,221
In a lot of ways it is, especially for microtransactions. I mean, my god.

2124
02:18:30,221 --> 02:18:32,221
And they're instant and they're more private.

2125
02:18:32,221 --> 02:18:36,221
So I think the privacy is… Tumblebit will be basically free.

2126
02:18:36,221 --> 02:18:41,221
Rolling over the channel when it's plugged into Schnorr, that will be way better.

2127
02:18:41,221 --> 02:18:43,221
Everything about the Lightning Network will be better.

2128
02:18:43,221 --> 02:18:47,221
And then we get the other crowd that is totally anti-anything off-chain.

2129
02:18:47,221 --> 02:18:49,221
How can I say those things, though, if I say one's better?

2130
02:18:49,221 --> 02:18:56,221
Well, you know, there's the other crowd who is like the RBTC hardcorers who are
totally anti-anything off-chain.

2131
02:18:56,221 --> 02:18:59,221
You know what I mean? Everything 100% has to be on the main chain.

2132
02:18:59,221 --> 02:19:01,221
And I'm like, that's silly, too.

2133
02:19:01,221 --> 02:19:09,221
I think there's a lot of anxiety and they are worried. I'm not going to speak for
them because I don't really know what's up over there.

2134
02:19:09,221 --> 02:19:10,221
It's funny with the extremes.

2135
02:19:11,221 --> 02:19:20,221
I think there's just some anxiety over, like, will anyone take care of our needs for
greater block space?

2136
02:19:20,221 --> 02:19:22,221
And for a while, the answer was just no.

2137
02:19:22,221 --> 02:19:27,221
Like, they were getting kind of, you know, like delayed and delayed.

2138
02:19:27,221 --> 02:19:31,221
And it was kind of looking like the limit would never be raised.

2139
02:19:31,221 --> 02:19:38,221
And I still think it really… I mean, SegWit will maybe raise it to this, you know,
2.24-ish.

2140
02:19:38,221 --> 02:19:40,221
That's nothing.

2141
02:19:40,221 --> 02:19:46,221
And for those of you who don't know, it theoretically goes up to 4, but in practice,
it would probably be like 2.2.

2142
02:19:46,221 --> 02:19:47,221
Yeah.

2143
02:19:47,221 --> 02:19:52,221
But I think we just shouldn't.

2144
02:19:52,221 --> 02:20:02,221
I mean, it's easier to have one that specializes in being small and one that
specializes in being large than it is to have a compromise or even to have two that
are medium.

2145
02:20:03,221 --> 02:20:13,221
I mean, two that are medium is much inferior to having one that just specializes in
being small and can do lots of special small things like run over Tor.

2146
02:20:13,221 --> 02:20:20,221
And like the Luke Jr., we can take the thing way down to like half a megabyte.

2147
02:20:20,221 --> 02:20:22,221
I don't think that's really a big problem.

2148
02:20:22,221 --> 02:20:24,221
If you have this other one, you have this other option.

2149
02:20:24,221 --> 02:20:25,221
Yeah, if you have an overflow option.

2150
02:20:25,221 --> 02:20:26,221
That's the big one.

2151
02:20:26,221 --> 02:20:27,221
Yeah, and it's on-chain.

2152
02:20:27,221 --> 02:20:28,221
That's big.

2153
02:20:28,221 --> 02:20:29,221
Because that's the big thing.

2154
02:20:29,221 --> 02:20:30,221
40 megabytes or something.

2155
02:20:30,221 --> 02:20:31,221
It could be huge.

2156
02:20:31,221 --> 02:20:34,221
It doesn't matter because everyone is using SPV and only a couple of people run
nodes.

2157
02:20:34,221 --> 02:20:35,221
It doesn't matter.

2158
02:20:35,221 --> 02:20:38,221
And if people are really worried, they transact on the big one.

2159
02:20:38,221 --> 02:20:40,221
They transact on Lightning.

2160
02:20:40,221 --> 02:20:42,221
And they settle it into the small one.

2161
02:20:42,221 --> 02:20:45,221
And then they have to pay a $5 transaction fee.

2162
02:20:45,221 --> 02:20:47,221
It doesn't matter because it's their life savings or something.

2163
02:20:47,221 --> 02:20:51,221
So, I mean, what does it cost to make on TD Ameritrade or something?

2164
02:20:51,221 --> 02:20:55,221
I think it's very – that setup is smarter.

2165
02:20:55,221 --> 02:20:59,221
That's a smarter setup, specialized, teamwork, synergy, whatever.

2166
02:20:59,221 --> 02:21:00,221
Yeah.

2167
02:21:00,221 --> 02:21:05,221
Well, I mean I agree with you completely as long as you have sidechains for
overflow for on-chain scaling.

2168
02:21:05,221 --> 02:21:08,221
As long as you have that, then there's no issue.

2169
02:21:08,221 --> 02:21:09,221
As long as you have both.

2170
02:21:09,221 --> 02:21:10,221
Yeah.

2171
02:21:10,221 --> 02:21:11,221
I completely agree with you.

2172
02:21:11,221 --> 02:21:14,221
I mean like all the scalability stuff is about like multiplying, getting more bang
for your buck.

2173
02:21:14,221 --> 02:21:16,221
Exactly.

2174
02:21:16,221 --> 02:21:17,221
Well, see, and for me –

2175
02:21:17,221 --> 02:21:18,221
No one ever wanted more buck, right?

2176
02:21:18,221 --> 02:21:19,221
You want more buck also.

2177
02:21:19,221 --> 02:21:27,221
And for me, if you use a Tier 2 strictly exclusively, you use a Tier 2 and that's
supposed to be your scaling is just on a Lightning network.

2178
02:21:28,221 --> 02:21:36,221
Well, then your only competition ever is to you do a regular transaction back on the
Bitcoin network.

2179
02:21:36,221 --> 02:21:43,221
So the maximum fee that you can theoretically have on the Lightning network is as
much as a Bitcoin transaction.

2180
02:21:43,221 --> 02:21:53,221
Well, as those go exponentially up with the static block size, that's what your cap
is going to be on the Lightning network because that's what it takes to close a
channel or open a channel.

2181
02:21:53,221 --> 02:22:00,221
So fees on Lightning network as is, as long as there's some reserved block space,
they're going to be really, really cheap.

2182
02:22:00,221 --> 02:22:08,221
But if there is literally no ability to make a main chain transaction, then they
could be very, very expensive.

2183
02:22:08,221 --> 02:22:09,221
And I don't know.

2184
02:22:09,221 --> 02:22:10,221
That's my take on it.

2185
02:22:13,221 --> 02:22:14,221
Yeah.

2186
02:22:14,221 --> 02:22:15,221
Actually, it's funny.

2187
02:22:15,221 --> 02:22:19,221
The Lightning network works better on a larger block size.

2188
02:22:19,221 --> 02:22:20,221
So it's even better.

2189
02:22:20,221 --> 02:22:22,221
It's like a very, very strong interaction.

2190
02:22:23,221 --> 02:22:25,221
It's very interesting in that way.

2191
02:22:25,221 --> 02:22:33,221
So the Lightning network is even way safer and faster and cheaper on the large block
chain.

2192
02:22:33,221 --> 02:22:35,221
It's very kind of bizarre that way.

2193
02:22:35,221 --> 02:22:36,221
Yeah, it is.

2194
02:22:36,221 --> 02:22:40,221
So maybe most people use Lightning on the large one and then they'll Lightning back
over into the small one maybe.

2195
02:22:40,221 --> 02:22:45,221
It's funny because if you have the block space on the main chain, you don't need it.

2196
02:22:45,221 --> 02:22:47,221
It's like this – it's like a quantum thing.

2197
02:22:47,221 --> 02:22:51,221
If you have – if the space exists, then you don't need to use it.

2198
02:22:52,221 --> 02:22:54,221
Because you could just do everything on the Lightning network and it's fine.

2199
02:22:54,221 --> 02:22:57,221
Yeah, but a lot of things in game theory are like that.

2200
02:22:57,221 --> 02:23:04,221
Like if we just took all the guards off of the front wall because the enemy never
attacks us until there are guards there.

2201
02:23:04,221 --> 02:23:05,221
Yeah, exactly.

2202
02:23:05,221 --> 02:23:06,221
It's like we just take them off.

2203
02:23:06,221 --> 02:23:07,221
Why do we even need the front wall?

2204
02:23:07,221 --> 02:23:08,221
They never attack.

2205
02:23:08,221 --> 02:23:15,221
It's like the first house that takes off its iron bars on the window.

2206
02:23:15,221 --> 02:23:16,221
You don't want to be the first house.

2207
02:23:16,221 --> 02:23:17,221
Yeah, exactly.

2208
02:23:18,221 --> 02:23:19,221
Nobody gets robbed.

2209
02:23:19,221 --> 02:23:20,221
You don't want to be the first house.

2210
02:23:20,221 --> 02:23:21,221
You put those iron bars up.

2211
02:23:21,221 --> 02:23:23,221
No one has been bothering us.

2212
02:23:23,221 --> 02:23:24,221
We don't need them anymore.

2213
02:23:25,221 --> 02:23:28,221
Ever since we hired the security guard, we don't have any problems.

2214
02:23:28,221 --> 02:23:29,221
Let's get rid of it.

2215
02:23:30,221 --> 02:23:32,221
So that's called off-path reasoning.

2216
02:23:32,221 --> 02:23:33,221
It's very important.

2217
02:23:33,221 --> 02:23:39,221
It's like, oh, if we got rid of the security guard, something different might
happen.

2218
02:23:39,221 --> 02:23:40,221
Right.

2219
02:23:41,221 --> 02:23:44,221
So were you trying to get to something else?

2220
02:23:45,221 --> 02:23:46,221
Question.

2221
02:23:46,221 --> 02:23:54,221
You brought up some interesting points about you, both Paul and Mike.

2222
02:23:54,221 --> 02:23:58,221
You're talking about overflow into a sidechain or whatever.

2223
02:23:58,221 --> 02:23:59,221
A little bit confused.

2224
02:24:00,221 --> 02:24:10,221
Were you saying that this is superior to Lightning Network because with Lightning
Network you have issues going back and forth to the actual chain?

2225
02:24:10,221 --> 02:24:11,221
No, no, no.

2226
02:24:11,221 --> 02:24:17,221
What I was trying to say is that it's better to use – the Lightning Network is of a
lower network.

2227
02:24:17,221 --> 02:24:20,221
So you'd have your own Lightning Network on the small main chain.

2228
02:24:20,221 --> 02:24:22,221
You'd copy it.

2229
02:24:22,221 --> 02:24:23,221
It would be the same.

2230
02:24:23,221 --> 02:24:27,221
But you have a different network, Lightning Network, on the sidechain.

2231
02:24:27,221 --> 02:24:32,221
And the cool thing is, of course, as I mentioned before, is that they're
interoperable.

2232
02:24:32,221 --> 02:24:34,221
So you can easily send money.

2233
02:24:34,221 --> 02:24:40,221
If you have an account on – it's like I don't want to go into the details.

2234
02:24:40,221 --> 02:24:47,221
But if you have an account on the main chain and the sidechain and I have an
account on the sidechain and the main chain, I can pay for sidechain Bitcoin to
your sidechain.

2235
02:24:47,221 --> 02:24:52,221
And you can pay for main chain Bitcoin from your main chain Lightning to my main
chain Lightning.

2236
02:24:52,221 --> 02:24:53,221
So there's no –

2237
02:24:53,221 --> 02:25:00,221
You can make both of those dependent on the same exact same random value R.

2238
02:25:00,221 --> 02:25:02,221
So we just say if someone announces R –

2239
02:25:02,221 --> 02:25:03,221
Hold up real quick.

2240
02:25:03,221 --> 02:25:06,221
You're getting too far.

2241
02:25:06,221 --> 02:25:15,221
Pretty much what I'm asking is pretty much you're not going to have to clear back to
the main chain to make payments.

2242
02:25:15,221 --> 02:25:22,221
You're saying you can just pay straight from the sidechain and there's no need to
have on ramps or off ramps or whatever.

2243
02:25:22,221 --> 02:25:29,221
There's no need to clog up the blocks or whatever moving coins from the sidechain
back to the main chain or something?

2244
02:25:30,221 --> 02:25:32,221
That is one thing that I was saying.

2245
02:25:32,221 --> 02:25:41,221
But what I was trying to say is that the Lightning network to Michael B. Casey's
point is better if you can close it immediately.

2246
02:25:41,221 --> 02:25:56,221
If there is cheap block space that you can execute a Bitcoin transaction and
instantly collapse a Lightning channel, if that's always an option, Lightning is far
more effective than if not.

2247
02:25:56,221 --> 02:25:58,221
That's what we're saying.

2248
02:25:59,221 --> 02:26:06,221
It's the Lightning network on the large chain that is probably the best thing of
everything.

2249
02:26:06,221 --> 02:26:09,221
Yeah, I agree because it's the most –

2250
02:26:09,221 --> 02:26:13,221
When you say the large chain, are you talking about bigger block chain?

2251
02:26:13,221 --> 02:26:14,221
The large sidechain.

2252
02:26:14,221 --> 02:26:15,221
Okay.

2253
02:26:15,221 --> 02:26:17,221
Large block sidechain.

2254
02:26:17,221 --> 02:26:19,221
That's what he's talking about.

2255
02:26:19,221 --> 02:26:22,221
Because they each have their own Lightning network.

2256
02:26:22,221 --> 02:26:23,221
Go ahead.

2257
02:26:24,221 --> 02:26:33,221
I guess the part I really didn't grasp was the fact that you wouldn't have to move
coins from a sidechain back to the main chain or whatever.

2258
02:26:33,221 --> 02:26:35,221
You can if you want.

2259
02:26:35,221 --> 02:26:36,221
It would still be Bitcoin.

2260
02:26:36,221 --> 02:26:39,221
You can do it through the Lightning network if you also want to do that.

2261
02:26:39,221 --> 02:26:44,221
But it's so much better to do it through the Lightning network because otherwise it
takes a long time.

2262
02:26:46,221 --> 02:26:47,221
The Lightning network is instant.

2263
02:26:47,221 --> 02:26:48,221
Yeah.

2264
02:26:48,221 --> 02:26:49,221
It's wonderful.

2265
02:26:50,221 --> 02:26:53,221
In fact, I would imagine that there would be tiny little fees almost.

2266
02:26:53,221 --> 02:26:54,221
Yeah.

2267
02:26:54,221 --> 02:27:00,221
Because there would be these people who say, okay, we will walk the coins back from
the sidechain to the main chain.

2268
02:27:00,221 --> 02:27:01,221
Yeah, per fee.

2269
02:27:01,221 --> 02:27:09,221
But if you want to take the fast lane, we'll let you do it for a fee of whatever,
half a percent or something.

2270
02:27:09,221 --> 02:27:13,221
You brought up another cool thing coming down the pipeline or whatever.

2271
02:27:13,221 --> 02:27:15,221
You're like, oh, if only we had this, this, this.

2272
02:27:15,221 --> 02:27:19,221
You brought up Schnorr signatures or I don't know what you're talking about.

2273
02:27:19,221 --> 02:27:22,221
Can you talk about that for a sec or maybe both of y'all know?

2274
02:27:22,221 --> 02:27:25,221
The cool thing about Schnorr is very cool for a lot of reasons.

2275
02:27:25,221 --> 02:27:28,221
I've heard of it, but I've completely forgotten what it is.

2276
02:27:28,221 --> 02:27:29,221
Paul can say it better.

2277
02:27:29,221 --> 02:27:30,221
Yeah.

2278
02:27:30,221 --> 02:27:31,221
Start from the bottom on that.

2279
02:27:31,221 --> 02:27:35,221
The big thing about it is – I don't know how much it would be confusing.

2280
02:27:35,221 --> 02:27:38,221
The cool thing is signature aggregation though.

2281
02:27:39,221 --> 02:27:49,221
What Schnorr lets people do is if you – so I don't – yeah, because I don't want to
make – first of all, I don't want to make any mistakes.

2282
02:27:49,221 --> 02:27:51,221
I don't want to make it too weird.

2283
02:27:51,221 --> 02:27:53,221
Hit it at a high level then.

2284
02:27:53,221 --> 02:27:59,221
What you can do is you can make these transactions smaller by aggregating.

2285
02:27:59,221 --> 02:28:05,221
So you have to – transactions are just all the data and then the signatures.

2286
02:28:05,221 --> 02:28:14,221
It turns out that signatures are a pretty significant percentage of that data, and
that's why the segregated witness moves a lot of data out,

2287
02:28:14,221 --> 02:28:19,221
and that's why we can get this thing up from one megabyte theoretically up to four
megabytes or 2.2

2288
02:28:19,221 --> 02:28:25,221
because the signatures, which is the witness data, those are the same thing.

2289
02:28:25,221 --> 02:28:28,221
That is a big chunk of the data.

2290
02:28:28,221 --> 02:28:38,221
What Schnorr allows you to do is without any – in many cases, it allows you to just
kind of smoosh a bunch of these things together.

2291
02:28:38,221 --> 02:28:45,221
So you can sign on behalf of lots of different people, and you can have the one
signature be good for all of them.

2292
02:28:45,221 --> 02:28:46,221
Or different outputs.

2293
02:28:46,221 --> 02:28:52,221
So say you have unspent transaction outputs and somebody sent you like 50 different
transactions.

2294
02:28:52,221 --> 02:29:00,221
Like right now, you're trying to do one – somebody sent you 50 cents transactions,
like tons of them.

2295
02:29:00,221 --> 02:29:07,221
Right now, if you wanted to send that to another address with one transaction,
that's going to cost you a crap ton in fees.

2296
02:29:07,221 --> 02:29:13,221
But with Schnorr, since all of those input signatures are aggregable, you end up
with one single signature,

2297
02:29:13,221 --> 02:29:21,221
and it's the same size as – well, a little bit bigger, but it's the same size as one
single signature for all of the –

2298
02:29:21,221 --> 02:29:25,221
How does this fit in with SegWit?

2299
02:29:25,221 --> 02:29:28,221
It doesn't. It's a different feature set.

2300
02:29:28,221 --> 02:29:32,221
So in other words, these different – so SegWit happens to be a weird thing.

2301
02:29:32,221 --> 02:29:37,221
So SegWit enables script versioning, which enables Schnorr.

2302
02:29:37,221 --> 02:29:45,221
But SegWit – as I explained before, so SegWit moves the signature away, far away,
and it makes the – to old nodes,

2303
02:29:45,221 --> 02:29:51,221
it just looks like these are what they – the infamously labeled anyone can spend
transactions.

2304
02:29:51,221 --> 02:29:57,221
So you have all the transaction data that says like pay from these outputs or
something like pay from –

2305
02:29:57,221 --> 02:30:05,221
basically pay from Michael Tidwell to Paul Sztorc, 17.8 or something on this date.

2306
02:30:05,221 --> 02:30:09,221
So that's all the stuff that's there, but then at the bottom is your signature.

2307
02:30:10,221 --> 02:30:12,221
Okay. So in other words –

2308
02:30:12,221 --> 02:30:13,221
It's like a little –

2309
02:30:13,221 --> 02:30:14,809
So in other words, if you want to do –

2310
02:30:14,809 --> 02:30:23,809
It's like a little – It's like a little – If we want to do like on-chain
transactions – or I'm sorry, a non-SegWit transaction could possibly use Schnorr
signatures?

2311
02:30:23,809 --> 02:30:24,809
No, that would be hard for it.

2312
02:30:24,809 --> 02:30:25,809
Right now –

2313
02:30:25,809 --> 02:30:27,809
No, no. I'm talking about with SegWit.

2314
02:30:28,809 --> 02:30:46,809
No, if you don't have SegWit, then Bitcoin is expecting the signature to look a
certain way. But if you do have SegWit, then you've kind of almost done kind of an
evil fork type thing where you move the signature away and now the door is open to
any other weird stuff.

2315
02:30:46,809 --> 02:30:47,809
Yeah.

2316
02:30:47,809 --> 02:30:49,809
Because it looks like an anyone can spend to the old nodes.

2317
02:30:49,809 --> 02:30:51,809
So the old nodes don't bother anymore.

2318
02:30:52,809 --> 02:31:01,809
And one of those things is you just change the little version on the transaction to
some other new version. And now you say it's totally new rules. It's anyone can
spend to the old – to the intermediate nodes.

2319
02:31:01,809 --> 02:31:07,809
So you have three phases. Pre-SegWit, those people think everything is anyone can
spend. They don't know what's going on.

2320
02:31:07,809 --> 02:31:18,809
Second phase, everyone is expecting it to be normal elliptical curve CDSA
transactions, but they think the witness will be somewhere else.

2321
02:31:18,809 --> 02:31:29,809
And then they think if there's a version flag that's more than one or whatever it is
– I don't know the details, but whatever it is, they say that that's anyone can
spend.

2322
02:31:29,809 --> 02:31:37,809
And then in the third phase, if it's set to some specific thing like two, they say
check all the rules for Schnorr. Don't check the CDSA.

2323
02:31:37,809 --> 02:31:40,809
CDSA, yes, I said it right.

2324
02:31:40,809 --> 02:31:41,809
I screwed up.

2325
02:31:41,809 --> 02:31:43,809
Try saying that three times fast.

2326
02:31:43,809 --> 02:31:50,809
And then there's one that's really hard. Oh, my god. Libsecp256k1 or something.

2327
02:31:50,809 --> 02:31:51,809
God, I hate that one.

2328
02:31:51,809 --> 02:31:55,809
It's a very funny kind of tongue tie thing.

2329
02:31:55,809 --> 02:31:56,809
I don't even try.

2330
02:31:57,809 --> 02:32:06,809
But the point is you have this way of making weirder transactions possible.

2331
02:32:06,809 --> 02:32:09,809
And Schnorr is great because of the signature aggregation thing.

2332
02:32:09,809 --> 02:32:18,809
So that's smaller and it increases anonymity, privacy greatly because you don't need
to interact with these people.

2333
02:32:18,809 --> 02:32:20,809
It just smushes them together.

2334
02:32:21,809 --> 02:32:23,809
Actually, I think – oh, I can't remember.

2335
02:32:23,809 --> 02:32:26,809
I don't want to make a mistake and say that they interact.

2336
02:32:26,809 --> 02:32:28,809
There's different types of signature aggregation.

2337
02:32:28,809 --> 02:32:30,809
No one's going to make it this far in the podcast.

2338
02:32:30,809 --> 02:32:31,809
You're fine.

2339
02:32:31,809 --> 02:32:33,809
Interactive and non-interactive.

2340
02:32:33,809 --> 02:32:34,809
Yeah, you're probably right.

2341
02:32:34,809 --> 02:32:43,809
But the cool thing is what the signature aggregation does do is give a very strong
incentive for people to use CoinJoin type stuff.

2342
02:32:43,809 --> 02:32:47,809
So we can do CoinJoin now, but there's no reason to, which is kind of a headache.

2343
02:32:47,809 --> 02:32:50,809
And it makes you look kind of suspicious because who would be doing such a thing?

2344
02:32:50,809 --> 02:33:03,809
But what Schnorr does is give you a great – it gives you the holiest of the holy
certainly in the field of applied game theory, which is the pretext, which is the
fake reason.

2345
02:33:03,809 --> 02:33:05,809
So it's the ultimate weapon.

2346
02:33:05,809 --> 02:33:12,809
It lets people say that they're doing this just to save money, but what they're
actually doing is making super, super anonymity for everyone.

2347
02:33:12,809 --> 02:33:14,809
They all CoinJoin together.

2348
02:33:14,809 --> 02:33:18,809
That makes their transactions cheaper because they take up less space.

2349
02:33:21,809 --> 02:33:33,809
What you have there is a situation where people would roll over these different
lightning channels as CoinJoins, and they would then be cheaper to use, and they
would also be super, super private.

2350
02:33:33,809 --> 02:33:35,809
So that's a really wonderful thing.

2351
02:33:35,809 --> 02:33:43,809
There's a lot of philosophical overlap between Schnorr and Mimblewimble because – I
mean even though Mimblewimble takes it a step further.

2352
02:33:43,809 --> 02:33:46,809
Mimblewimble is super aggregation.

2353
02:33:46,809 --> 02:33:52,809
Mimblewimble is very, very, very non-interactive aggregation.

2354
02:33:52,809 --> 02:33:55,809
So that may have been where I got confused.

2355
02:33:55,809 --> 02:33:59,809
Mimblewimble, you can just aggregate almost just about everything.

2356
02:33:59,809 --> 02:34:02,809
The entire block is basically an aggregate, right?

2357
02:34:02,809 --> 02:34:20,809
It's very, very – Andrew Post's presentation has a wonderful image where he cuts out
these redundant transactions, and you can just keep doing that all day long so that
you have something that you can show as a history.

2358
02:34:20,809 --> 02:34:23,809
Basically, the blockchain can shrink under many cases.

2359
02:34:23,809 --> 02:34:24,809
Yeah.

2360
02:34:24,809 --> 02:34:26,809
It just starts cutting out redundant stuff.

2361
02:34:26,809 --> 02:34:28,809
It says I paid 10 to you.

2362
02:34:28,809 --> 02:34:30,809
You paid 10 to someone else.

2363
02:34:30,809 --> 02:34:31,809
It just cuts out the middle part.

2364
02:34:31,809 --> 02:34:33,809
It just says I lost 10.

2365
02:34:33,809 --> 02:34:35,809
This other guy ended up with 10.

2366
02:34:35,809 --> 02:34:38,809
It just starts aggressively just chopping everything off.

2367
02:34:38,809 --> 02:34:39,809
It's really wonderful.

2368
02:34:39,809 --> 02:34:54,809
Paul, if they do fork and they end up using UASF because they don't want their chain
to be completely destroyed by a big mining pool like Bitmain or something, would you
use that Bitcoin?

2369
02:34:54,809 --> 02:34:59,809
Even if it's called Wimblecoin, is that going to be the new de facto coin?

2370
02:34:59,809 --> 02:35:01,809
Are you going to be excited about that?

2371
02:35:01,809 --> 02:35:03,809
What they would do is they would make sure that everyone owned –

2372
02:35:03,809 --> 02:35:06,809
Yeah, they would use the same UTXO set, right?

2373
02:35:06,809 --> 02:35:07,809
Yes.

2374
02:35:07,809 --> 02:35:09,809
I would assume that they would do that.

2375
02:35:09,809 --> 02:35:11,809
So would you be excited about that?

2376
02:35:11,809 --> 02:35:13,809
I would say not for a while.

2377
02:35:13,809 --> 02:35:14,809
I really wouldn't.

2378
02:35:14,809 --> 02:35:15,809
I would just –

2379
02:35:15,809 --> 02:35:23,809
What would you want more, a SegWit2x with two megabyte blocks with no Drivechains
or this Mimblewimblecoin potentially?

2380
02:35:23,809 --> 02:35:32,809
I really – honestly, to be totally honest with you, I'm talking about my own book
here, but I really think whoever gets sidechains first could seriously win.

2381
02:35:32,809 --> 02:35:33,809
So I really think that –

2382
02:35:33,809 --> 02:35:36,809
It always comes back to sidechains.

2383
02:35:36,809 --> 02:35:39,809
So Paul, could you do sidechains on Mimblewimble?

2384
02:35:39,809 --> 02:35:44,809
I know they have – because of the aggregation, it's very – I don't know if they
could script on it.

2385
02:35:44,809 --> 02:35:45,809
I mean could you even –

2386
02:35:45,809 --> 02:35:50,809
The thing is it's very, very, very specialized, but Andrew Polstra presented it at
Stanford.

2387
02:35:50,809 --> 02:35:51,809
Oh, so he figured out how to do it.

2388
02:35:51,809 --> 02:35:53,809
Scriptless.

2389
02:35:53,809 --> 02:35:57,809
Yeah, his thing is really weird, and what it basically does – oh, wow.

2390
02:35:57,809 --> 02:36:00,809
This is really hard to explain, and I don't want to explain it wrong.

2391
02:36:01,809 --> 02:36:12,809
He does things that have nothing to do with encryption, but such that they would add
up to something that is also an encryption key.

2392
02:36:12,809 --> 02:36:14,809
Yeah, I will have to look at that.

2393
02:36:14,809 --> 02:36:16,809
I will have to look at that talk.

2394
02:36:16,809 --> 02:36:17,809
Probably only he really understands this.

2395
02:36:17,809 --> 02:36:18,809
Is it posted online?

2396
02:36:18,809 --> 02:36:24,809
The point is he figured out some clever way of – it's kind of like –

2397
02:36:24,809 --> 02:36:27,809
We'll put it in the show notes if there's a video.

2398
02:36:27,809 --> 02:36:31,809
But he figured out some way of doing some scripting in MimbleWimble.

2399
02:36:31,809 --> 02:36:36,809
But the weird thing is sidechains, none of that stuff is actually scripting really.

2400
02:36:36,809 --> 02:36:40,809
It is just checking new rules.

2401
02:36:40,809 --> 02:36:43,809
It's like all very custom.

2402
02:36:43,809 --> 02:36:45,809
It's very, very custom.

2403
02:36:45,809 --> 02:36:50,809
So it's not like a new opcode even though it is kind of, but you have to track all
these other different things.

2404
02:36:51,809 --> 02:36:55,809
And you could – excuse me.

2405
02:36:55,809 --> 02:36:58,809
You could – I don't know.

2406
02:36:58,809 --> 02:37:02,809
It would be a lot of work, especially if that thing is written in Rust and it's like
a totally different –

2407
02:37:02,809 --> 02:37:06,809
Yeah, it's probably realistic to say, yeah, it's feasible.

2408
02:37:06,809 --> 02:37:12,809
It's possible, but implementation is going to take a while.

2409
02:37:12,809 --> 02:37:13,809
Yeah.

2410
02:37:13,809 --> 02:37:14,809
So Paul –

2411
02:37:14,809 --> 02:37:15,809
I don't know.

2412
02:37:15,809 --> 02:37:16,809
I mean it's just so new.

2413
02:37:16,809 --> 02:37:17,809
I would not want to use it because it's new.

2414
02:37:17,809 --> 02:37:18,809
I don't like things that are new.

2415
02:37:18,809 --> 02:37:21,809
The soft fork is wonderful because it's like evolution.

2416
02:37:21,809 --> 02:37:25,809
It accumulates experience.

2417
02:37:25,809 --> 02:37:28,809
It's like Nassim Taleb's Lindy effect.

2418
02:37:28,809 --> 02:37:29,809
So you don't think it ever –

2419
02:37:29,809 --> 02:37:30,809
It's been around for a while.

2420
02:37:30,809 --> 02:37:31,809
I'll still be here.

2421
02:37:31,809 --> 02:37:37,809
You don't think it ever accumulates like how we were talking about earlier, like
accumulates like tanglement and crud and stuff?

2422
02:37:39,809 --> 02:37:40,809
No.

2423
02:37:40,809 --> 02:37:41,809
I completely disagree.

2424
02:37:41,809 --> 02:37:45,809
I know a lot of people have that view, the technical debt view.

2425
02:37:45,809 --> 02:37:46,809
I don't.

2426
02:37:46,809 --> 02:37:47,809
I think it's different with the protocol.

2427
02:37:47,809 --> 02:37:48,809
It's like English.

2428
02:37:48,809 --> 02:37:55,809
It's like English accumulates these oddities, but English has also infected the
entire world.

2429
02:37:55,809 --> 02:38:00,809
And now people have to learn to speak it in India and in Germany and everywhere.

2430
02:38:00,809 --> 02:38:03,809
And it's just like –

2431
02:38:03,809 --> 02:38:04,809
What's your view?

2432
02:38:04,809 --> 02:38:05,809
I don't think –

2433
02:38:05,809 --> 02:38:06,809
So would you say –

2434
02:38:06,809 --> 02:38:07,809
I think it's better.

2435
02:38:07,809 --> 02:38:09,809
I mean we have these things in our body.

2436
02:38:10,809 --> 02:38:11,809
We have like in our –

2437
02:38:11,809 --> 02:38:18,809
The human cell has like the code to build like the dog's nose, but it's been like
commented out.

2438
02:38:18,809 --> 02:38:20,809
There's these things that comment out code.

2439
02:38:20,809 --> 02:38:25,809
And you could say like that's inelegant or you could say –

2440
02:38:25,809 --> 02:38:37,809
I mean if you think it's all inelegant, like go in and edit your own DNA and then
good luck surviving because you have a 100 percent chance of getting cancer and
dying immediately because it's too complicated.

2441
02:38:38,809 --> 02:38:50,809
So when the complexity is the thing and there's huge amounts of risk, I prefer to
accumulate this because my option is just to not upgrade and wait and see if
anything bad happens with the new code.

2442
02:38:50,809 --> 02:38:52,809
But it does create this annoying thing.

2443
02:38:52,809 --> 02:38:57,809
It's not centralization, but it is kind of a concentration of expertise, which is
what we have now.

2444
02:38:57,809 --> 02:38:59,809
And that is unfortunate.

2445
02:38:59,809 --> 02:39:00,809
That's an interesting point.

2446
02:39:00,809 --> 02:39:02,809
Because it creates these barriers to entry.

2447
02:39:02,809 --> 02:39:04,809
These barriers to entry that other people can't work on the code.

2448
02:39:04,809 --> 02:39:07,809
There's no possible way you could catch up if you just started now.

2449
02:39:07,809 --> 02:39:08,809
That's an interesting point.

2450
02:39:08,809 --> 02:39:13,809
It would already be so different by the time you caught up, and it would take
forever, and it would not be worth it.

2451
02:39:13,809 --> 02:39:18,809
So we have a concentration of technical power, which is inconvenient.

2452
02:39:18,809 --> 02:39:20,809
It's incumbents in that manner.

2453
02:39:20,809 --> 02:39:26,809
So what do you think about Monero hard-forking every six months and how they're just
– that's what they've chosen?

2454
02:39:26,809 --> 02:39:29,809
Is that just because, oh, well, that's Monero. Don't worry about them?

2455
02:39:29,809 --> 02:39:32,809
Or do you think that's a viable model?

2456
02:39:33,809 --> 02:39:48,809
No, that is evidence that it is not as bad as I say and that it's not really as
complicated as the DNA of a mammal or something, which is fine.

2457
02:39:48,809 --> 02:39:55,809
Or it may be evidence of their inability to do something.

2458
02:39:55,809 --> 02:39:57,809
Their fluffiness.

2459
02:39:57,809 --> 02:39:59,809
I don't know.

2460
02:39:59,809 --> 02:40:01,809
It's weird, actually.

2461
02:40:01,809 --> 02:40:02,809
It's funny you bring that up.

2462
02:40:02,809 --> 02:40:11,809
Sidechains can kind of do this discarding every six to 12 months because of what I
mentioned earlier about the accounting.

2463
02:40:11,809 --> 02:40:13,809
So you can do a much better kind of pruning.

2464
02:40:13,809 --> 02:40:17,809
I think that's kind of a facet of it.

2465
02:40:17,809 --> 02:40:21,809
But, yeah, in general, I don't like – I mean say you do a hard-fork every six
months.

2466
02:40:21,809 --> 02:40:28,809
How long can that last if you really want your thing to be the cryptocurrency of the
internet?

2467
02:40:28,809 --> 02:40:33,809
Then you will only be a matter of time before people start knocking on your door.

2468
02:40:33,809 --> 02:40:37,809
And again, it's whatever flavor of violence you prefer.

2469
02:40:37,809 --> 02:40:40,809
It's either the mafia or the government or whatever it is.

2470
02:40:40,809 --> 02:40:46,809
People will show up and they'll be like, you're hard-forking at six months.

2471
02:40:46,809 --> 02:40:49,809
Can you do this weird thing for me?

2472
02:40:49,809 --> 02:40:53,809
Or maybe they'll just be buying you dinner or whatever, and they'll be getting to
know your kids.

2473
02:40:53,809 --> 02:40:56,809
That's what I think is going to end up happening with those.

2474
02:40:56,809 --> 02:41:05,809
If we do have scheduled hard-forks, I think they'll become like must-pass omnibus
bills that things are going to make their way into because we have to do it now.

2475
02:41:05,809 --> 02:41:08,809
And it's there, and it's either we'll take it or leave it.

2476
02:41:08,809 --> 02:41:11,809
We already have the Segment 2X.

2477
02:41:11,809 --> 02:41:17,809
It's kind of like vaguely by committee kind of like whatever compromise thing.

2478
02:41:18,809 --> 02:41:20,809
Governance is complicated.

2479
02:41:20,809 --> 02:41:23,809
So if you want that, then it has pros and cons.

2480
02:41:23,809 --> 02:41:31,809
But I just think the base layer in particular should be stable.

2481
02:41:31,809 --> 02:41:33,809
It should emphasize stability.

2482
02:41:33,809 --> 02:41:40,809
The thing I like about you, Paul, is you might be one of the only people that are
like, yeah, let's stay small blocks, but here's my solution, which I like.

2483
02:41:40,809 --> 02:41:42,809
I like that a lot about you.

2484
02:41:42,809 --> 02:41:46,809
I really don't understand why more people don't try to help make Drivechain happen
as soon as possible.

2485
02:41:46,809 --> 02:41:47,809
We're trying.

2486
02:41:47,809 --> 02:41:49,809
I really feel like it's just this one thing.

2487
02:41:49,809 --> 02:41:51,809
Block time is pro-Drivechain.

2488
02:41:51,809 --> 02:41:52,809
Yeah, totally.

2489
02:41:52,809 --> 02:41:54,809
Block time is pro-Drivechain.

2490
02:41:54,809 --> 02:41:59,809
Everyone will stop being mean to each other, and they'll all be happy.

2491
02:41:59,809 --> 02:42:03,809
And then even it's super anti-competitive in a good way.

2492
02:42:03,809 --> 02:42:06,809
So you think literally where Bitcoin is going to be all kumbaya?

2493
02:42:06,809 --> 02:42:08,809
It threatens all these other things, right?

2494
02:42:08,809 --> 02:42:11,809
I mean, how does it not just pull a gun right at you?

2495
02:42:11,809 --> 02:42:12,809
We'll all hold hands.

2496
02:42:12,809 --> 02:42:13,809
That'll be awesome.

2497
02:42:13,809 --> 02:42:15,809
We'll all hold hands through the Drivechain.

2498
02:42:15,809 --> 02:42:16,809
Through the Drivechain.

2499
02:42:16,809 --> 02:42:17,809
We'll all hold hands.

2500
02:42:17,809 --> 02:42:18,809
I mean, that's kind of how they work.

2501
02:42:18,809 --> 02:42:20,809
They work kind of like on –

2502
02:42:20,809 --> 02:42:30,809
And what I also don't understand about it is that I have support from lots of people
that maybe I should try to – I don't know how much they would like it publicized.

2503
02:42:30,809 --> 02:42:42,809
But I have contacted – obviously, it's supported directly by Jeff Garzik, and I have
support from – I have support from Maude Revere and Jihan Wu and Adam Back and Luke
Jr.

2504
02:42:42,809 --> 02:42:44,809
So I just – I don't understand like where –

2505
02:42:44,809 --> 02:42:47,809
You need a Paul Sports agreement.

2506
02:42:47,809 --> 02:42:49,809
Yeah.

2507
02:42:49,809 --> 02:42:50,809
A Paul Sports agreement.

2508
02:42:50,809 --> 02:42:51,809
You need everyone to sign in.

2509
02:42:51,809 --> 02:42:53,809
A Paul Sports agreement, a Paul Sports ICO.

2510
02:42:53,809 --> 02:42:57,809
Can I make the New Haven, Connecticut agreement?

2511
02:42:57,809 --> 02:43:01,809
New Haven, Connecticut agreement and a Drivechain ICO.

2512
02:43:01,809 --> 02:43:03,809
That's what you –

2513
02:43:03,809 --> 02:43:04,809
I need the ICO.

2514
02:43:04,809 --> 02:43:05,809
That was my mistake.

2515
02:43:05,809 --> 02:43:06,809
Yeah, you didn't do an ICO.

2516
02:43:06,809 --> 02:43:07,809
I didn't do an ICO.

2517
02:43:07,809 --> 02:43:09,809
Hey, Paul, we're going to wrap this up in a little bit.

2518
02:43:09,809 --> 02:43:10,809
I guess I did.

2519
02:43:10,809 --> 02:43:11,809
We definitely should.

2520
02:43:11,809 --> 02:43:12,809
But real quick.

2521
02:43:12,809 --> 02:43:13,809
Longest episode ever.

2522
02:43:13,809 --> 02:43:14,809
Yeah.

2523
02:43:14,809 --> 02:43:19,809
Is Greg Maxwell Ignotus Pervella or whatever?

2524
02:43:19,809 --> 02:43:21,809
How do you say his name?

2525
02:43:21,809 --> 02:43:23,809
Ignotius.

2526
02:43:23,809 --> 02:43:25,809
Ignotius Perverella.

2527
02:43:25,809 --> 02:43:26,809
Oh, my god.

2528
02:43:26,809 --> 02:43:27,809
Perverella?

2529
02:43:27,809 --> 02:43:29,809
Perverell or something?

2530
02:43:29,809 --> 02:43:30,809
Perverell.

2531
02:43:30,809 --> 02:43:32,809
Is that Greg Maxwell?

2532
02:43:32,809 --> 02:43:35,809
We owe it to the guy to look up how his name is pronounced.

2533
02:43:35,809 --> 02:43:37,809
Is he one of the three brothers?

2534
02:43:37,809 --> 02:43:39,809
Yeah, I think so.

2535
02:43:40,809 --> 02:43:42,809
Ignotius Perrevella, I think.

2536
02:43:42,809 --> 02:43:47,809
You know, that would be an interesting question.

2537
02:43:47,809 --> 02:43:48,809
It depends.

2538
02:43:48,809 --> 02:43:53,809
I would really like to check his productivity on various things at various times.

2539
02:43:53,809 --> 02:43:59,809
You can check his commits on different projects.

2540
02:43:59,809 --> 02:44:00,809
I know.

2541
02:44:00,809 --> 02:44:02,809
That's what I'd like to do before I answer the question.

2542
02:44:02,809 --> 02:44:04,809
But let's just see off the top of my head.

2543
02:44:04,809 --> 02:44:07,809
I'm going to say, per the base rate fallacy,

2544
02:44:07,809 --> 02:44:12,809
I'm going to say that probably no, because there are so many people that could be
Andrew Paulson.

2545
02:44:12,809 --> 02:44:14,809
I like how you reasoned that live.

2546
02:44:14,809 --> 02:44:16,809
So, I appreciate that.

2547
02:44:16,809 --> 02:44:20,809
Paul, now that you're in Atlanta, I guess we'll be seeing you next week.

2548
02:44:20,809 --> 02:44:22,809
Same chair over here next to us.

2549
02:44:22,809 --> 02:44:23,809
Definitely.

2550
02:44:23,809 --> 02:44:25,809
Paul, thanks so much for coming.

2551
02:44:25,809 --> 02:44:27,809
Yeah, so, Mike, I think the knots has been found.

2552
02:44:27,809 --> 02:44:30,809
Yeah, and our blocks have Drivechains now.

2553
02:44:30,809 --> 02:44:31,809
Awesome.

2554
02:44:31,809 --> 02:44:33,809
Paul, you want to finish this up?

2555
02:44:33,809 --> 02:44:35,809
What a show.

2556
02:44:35,809 --> 02:44:37,809
What a show this is.

2557
02:44:37,809 --> 02:44:39,809
Thanks for propagating, everybody.

2558
02:44:39,809 --> 02:44:40,809
Have a good one.

2559
02:44:40,809 --> 02:44:41,783
Oh, my God.