1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,600
This is a special archive recording of Paul Sztorc appearing on Bitcoin and

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:11,720
Chill, hosted by Wicked on July 22, 2026, and recorded by Rexpaces on

3
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:17,959
YouTube. Follow Wicked on X at w_s_bitcoin, and

4
00:00:17,959 --> 00:00:21,200
follow Rexpaces on YouTube at Rexpaces.

5
00:00:21,799 --> 00:00:23,440
Now, here's the conversation.

6
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:30,240
It can be middlemen who try to skim pieces of it off and then their, you

7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,040
know, settlements or aggregate settlements on chain are still enough

8
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:36,040
to secure the base layer.

9
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:37,939
That's my opinion, at least.

10
00:00:38,439 --> 00:00:42,540
Well, I think like you could have middlemen and it might be fine.

11
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,040
I'm just saying it's a good rule of thumb if because we want to be saying,

12
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:52,240
okay, if middlemen are doing this, like, for example, OpVault competes to

13
00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:58,439
some extent with like a, with like a Casa or like a, some kind of like, like

14
00:00:58,439 --> 00:01:00,840
a Fireblocks or like a multi-sig type of a thing.

15
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,839
Because if the network, if you can use the network to secure your money for

16
00:01:04,839 --> 00:01:09,239
you with OpVault, then you don't need, you have the cypherpunk way that's

17
00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:10,339
private and whatever.

18
00:01:11,339 --> 00:01:13,440
So it's kind of like fighting over market share.

19
00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,739
And so, yeah, ideally developers would be, don't want to roll their own crypto

20
00:01:18,739 --> 00:01:19,339
with OpVault.

21
00:01:19,339 --> 00:01:21,739
They would still trust Casa or Unchain, right?

22
00:01:22,339 --> 00:01:24,139
Because they want the, they want the hand-holding.

23
00:01:24,139 --> 00:01:25,639
They want the video call.

24
00:01:25,739 --> 00:01:27,339
Yeah, but I'm worried you're missing the point.

25
00:01:27,940 --> 00:01:29,739
I'm worried you're missing the point completely.

26
00:01:29,739 --> 00:01:31,440
Okay, let's go for it.

27
00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,440
It's like someone's selling guns and they say, this is my cool gun.

28
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,040
And you can, this is a rifle and you can hit people from far away.

29
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,139
And this is a shotgun.

30
00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:45,639
It doesn't take a lot of effort to learn how to use a shotgun compared to a

31
00:01:45,639 --> 00:01:46,940
sniper rifle or something.

32
00:01:47,339 --> 00:01:50,440
So you have all these guns, that's the self-sovereignty world.

33
00:01:50,540 --> 00:01:56,739
And you have safes and you have cool stuff that people use, water filters.

34
00:01:57,139 --> 00:01:58,040
And then there's a different world.

35
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,940
People go to Disney World and the security and everything's taken care of

36
00:02:02,139 --> 00:02:02,540
for them.

37
00:02:02,540 --> 00:02:03,739
They go to maybe a hotel.

38
00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:06,339
Yeah, no guns at Disney World.

39
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,839
And obvious rule, right?

40
00:02:09,539 --> 00:02:15,139
And so the question is just if, should we evolve the protocol to meet the

41
00:02:15,139 --> 00:02:16,639
needs of real people?

42
00:02:17,139 --> 00:02:21,240
Which include sometimes people need a gun and then you're saying, well,

43
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,139
hey, listen, there's going to be some people want to go to Disney World.

44
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,339
I'm saying like, you know, we want to, we need all the customers we can

45
00:02:26,339 --> 00:02:28,039
get. We need all the users we can get.

46
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:29,740
We need all the adoption we can get.

47
00:02:29,839 --> 00:02:36,339
If we don't get as much, if someone else gets more users first, then that

48
00:02:36,339 --> 00:02:37,940
will be the winning crypto project.

49
00:02:38,839 --> 00:02:43,240
And if it's not possible to get a lot of people, you're ignoring the fact

50
00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:48,440
that many, many people really do buy guns, which is the Canadian truckers

51
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:49,940
people who needed the Bitcoin.

52
00:02:50,339 --> 00:02:52,740
There's sometimes people need it and Donald Trump.

53
00:02:53,139 --> 00:02:58,039
So you kind of have it both ways and both ways are wrong, but you kind of

54
00:02:58,039 --> 00:02:58,839
have it both ways.

55
00:02:58,839 --> 00:03:01,539
You're trying to say on one hand, you're saying, well, people are stupid.

56
00:03:01,539 --> 00:03:03,240
They don't care about some sovereignty.

57
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,539
This is not actually true for millions and millions of people.

58
00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:12,240
You know, Argentina's involved with hyperinflation, Canadian truckers,

59
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,839
Trump family, Ukraine war, weird stuff going on, whatever's going on in

60
00:03:15,839 --> 00:03:16,740
China right now.

61
00:03:17,139 --> 00:03:19,740
People who experience hyperinflation don't necessarily care about

62
00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:23,240
self-sovereignty, which is actually proven by the fact that they're

63
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:29,940
using stable coins or permissioned, you know, completely ruggable, not

64
00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:31,240
self-sovereign shit coins.

65
00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:38,240
I think it's not true to say, it's true that, you know, the backing of

66
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:39,339
Tether by U.S.

67
00:03:39,339 --> 00:03:47,740
dollars is like a crucial link in the chain that is custodial.

68
00:03:47,740 --> 00:03:48,539
But think about it.

69
00:03:48,539 --> 00:03:54,039
Tether makes a huge amount of money, an enormous amount of money every

70
00:03:54,039 --> 00:03:56,139
quarter for doing very little work.

71
00:03:56,639 --> 00:03:59,740
And the whole reason is because people trust the brand.

72
00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:00,839
It's all about the brand.

73
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,639
The brand is everything.

74
00:04:02,940 --> 00:04:03,839
So people believe...

75
00:04:03,839 --> 00:04:04,740
The brand is the dollar.

76
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,440
No, Tether has said, we will redeem.

77
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:08,839
You can redeem this for the dollar.

78
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,240
And they fought to preserve that.

79
00:04:11,839 --> 00:04:12,940
So that's different from the U.S.

80
00:04:12,940 --> 00:04:15,740
dollar, although it's related because they exchange at par.

81
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,440
In a way, Tether proves that the one-to-one peg is...

82
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,839
Well, yeah, the dollar has very strong network effects.

83
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,440
So the dollar will crush, it will grow and crush everything in its path

84
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,940
if we let it.

85
00:04:30,940 --> 00:04:35,140
But it's the brand that's ruined by these terrible Bitcoin projects,

86
00:04:35,140 --> 00:04:37,640
which include Lightning, but not limited to it.

87
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,339
What do you think about dollars coming to Bitcoin?

88
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:42,440
You think that's good or bad?

89
00:04:43,239 --> 00:04:45,140
Well, can you clarify what you mean?

90
00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:46,540
Like, you're saying the fact that...

91
00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:50,640
Like dollar stable coins enabled by like RDB and Spark...

92
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:51,640
It was already...

93
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:53,640
All that was...

94
00:04:53,739 --> 00:04:57,739
This was all Bitcoin project to begin with, you know, because Omni...

95
00:04:57,940 --> 00:05:00,940
Tether was from Omni and that was from a MasterCoin and all...

96
00:05:00,940 --> 00:05:03,339
This was all Bitcoin only for like years.

97
00:05:03,339 --> 00:05:07,540
And then it was even Omni was Bitcoin only, but then they left because

98
00:05:09,140 --> 00:05:14,440
the block size and the fees and it's not just that.

99
00:05:14,940 --> 00:05:18,540
So with it coming back, do you think that would be good or bad for Bitcoin?

100
00:05:18,540 --> 00:05:20,839
If it were to gain majority market share?

101
00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:23,739
We want everything to be on Bitcoin in some part of the tech.

102
00:05:23,739 --> 00:05:27,040
Of course, I would imagine being on an L2 of Bitcoin, obviously.

103
00:05:28,239 --> 00:05:32,540
I think it'd be minted on the base layer in some way, but then probably

104
00:05:32,540 --> 00:05:34,940
shipped up and traded on L2s.

105
00:05:34,940 --> 00:05:35,839
I think they're right.

106
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,440
We don't have enough block space on L1, obviously.

107
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:39,540
Everyone knows that already.

108
00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:46,940
I mean, you can mint a trillion dollars of Tether, you know, and then

109
00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:49,940
trading it is another, you know, distributing it...

110
00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:50,940
Trading is everything.

111
00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:52,940
...would be done on the L2.

112
00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:55,739
The thing is people say like, other than that, Mrs.

113
00:05:55,739 --> 00:05:57,140
Lincoln, how do you like the play?

114
00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,339
About like these little things.

115
00:05:59,339 --> 00:06:02,239
They say, well, Wallet of Satoshi, it's pretty good, but it's custodial.

116
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,040
It's like, this is the heart and soul of the thing.

117
00:06:05,540 --> 00:06:05,839
Okay.

118
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,440
It's like saying, this is our elevator or this is our escalator.

119
00:06:09,739 --> 00:06:10,839
It'll take you all the way to the top.

120
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,839
But the problem is it's not working.

121
00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,239
So you have to, it's like saying someone, you tell someone in a wheelchair,

122
00:06:17,239 --> 00:06:21,239
they want to go to the top of, they want to go to the top of whatever,

123
00:06:21,239 --> 00:06:22,940
the Empire State Building or something.

124
00:06:23,239 --> 00:06:26,540
And you say, oh, some people are the Statue of Liberty and some people

125
00:06:26,540 --> 00:06:30,040
are walking up the stairs and they say, oh, we have an elevator.

126
00:06:31,339 --> 00:06:35,040
And it's just, it's a custodial elevator and they point to the staircase.

127
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,239
And it's like, this is not like some tiny little detail.

128
00:06:39,739 --> 00:06:40,540
People say, oh, it's fine.

129
00:06:40,540 --> 00:06:41,540
It just doesn't scale.

130
00:06:42,339 --> 00:06:46,940
It's like, you know, it's like, oh, it's like someone forgot to either

131
00:06:46,940 --> 00:06:52,440
you order a hamburger and they just send you like an empty plate or a plate

132
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,940
with ingredients on it or something.

133
00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:55,739
It's like someone forgot to cook all the food.

134
00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:01,440
It's everything, whether or not the user experience is good, whether or not

135
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,640
the price is competitive, whether or not it scales, whether or not there

136
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,339
is no, it's just like people say these things and they say, oh, it's

137
00:07:09,339 --> 00:07:10,440
really, really, really good.

138
00:07:10,739 --> 00:07:11,440
Lightning's fine.

139
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,239
As long as the ordinals don't move the fee, L1 fee rate up, it's fine.

140
00:07:15,239 --> 00:07:21,040
As long as we don't try to onboard more than 50,000 people at once.

141
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,239
It's fine.

142
00:07:22,239 --> 00:07:23,839
As long as both of you people are online.

143
00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:24,839
It's like, forget about it.

144
00:07:24,839 --> 00:07:26,739
Like, oh, this is all just garbage.

145
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:29,040
It's fine.

146
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,640
As long as you have a intermediary doing the swaps.

147
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:33,339
Exactly.

148
00:07:33,339 --> 00:07:34,140
Yeah, that's fine.

149
00:07:34,140 --> 00:07:36,440
Coordinating the sharing of the UTXO underneath.

150
00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:43,640
So it's not, you know, uh, yeah, well, all this stuff, the custodial

151
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,440
stuff has its own issues in addition to the rug ability is that, you

152
00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,640
know, it just, it leads to awkward questions about, you know, whatever.

153
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,239
This is all like Vladimir Putin's money or something.

154
00:07:56,239 --> 00:08:01,640
So it's, um, and then it becomes like a honeypot.

155
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,739
Like if it becomes really big, so tether, you know, they tether

156
00:08:04,839 --> 00:08:06,239
fought to protect their brand.

157
00:08:06,940 --> 00:08:10,839
And they, they grew through times when, you know, it was unclear

158
00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:12,839
if they could actually redeem.

159
00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:19,140
So you're saying like, um, you know, we minted on L1 and then transact

160
00:08:19,140 --> 00:08:22,239
it, whether the transacting is like part of an essential part of the

161
00:08:22,239 --> 00:08:22,640
whole thing.

162
00:08:22,739 --> 00:08:23,839
It doesn't matter if you mint.

163
00:08:25,339 --> 00:08:27,040
And then network effect is too important.

164
00:08:28,540 --> 00:08:32,940
Well, I mean the transacting, I think you would agree like base

165
00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:36,239
layer would be a terrible place to be having high velocity stable

166
00:08:36,239 --> 00:08:37,640
coin payments.

167
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,539
I mean, that would be, that would not make sense.

168
00:08:39,539 --> 00:08:40,039
Of course.

169
00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:40,440
Yes.

170
00:08:41,340 --> 00:08:41,539
Yeah.

171
00:08:41,539 --> 00:08:46,539
So you want that to scale on second layers that are, second layers

172
00:08:46,539 --> 00:08:49,440
of sidechains that are tailor built for payments.

173
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,039
I mean, you would agree with that.

174
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,440
Now, Paul, I mean, have you used, have you used custodial lightning

175
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,039
yourself?

176
00:08:57,140 --> 00:08:59,640
Have you slumped down to the, to the normie?

177
00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:01,739
Well, yeah, accidentally.

178
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:02,140
Yes.

179
00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:04,340
No, I have used it like occasionally.

180
00:09:05,739 --> 00:09:06,039
Yeah.

181
00:09:06,739 --> 00:09:07,440
What'd you think?

182
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:08,340
Was it pretty sweet?

183
00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:12,340
Yeah, but you know that it, yeah.

184
00:09:12,340 --> 00:09:13,539
And it's like, that's not the point.

185
00:09:13,539 --> 00:09:15,539
It's like when you think it's no different than using a credit card

186
00:09:15,539 --> 00:09:17,039
that has the word lightning written on it.

187
00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:19,340
It's an essential fraud.

188
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,039
You're, you're still, you're still paying in sats.

189
00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:27,140
Now the merchant receives them, you know, that might be trusted,

190
00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:28,539
but, but sats are moving.

191
00:09:29,039 --> 00:09:30,340
HTLCs are getting.

192
00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:32,840
No, I don't actually, the thing is, I don't actually know, you

193
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:34,739
know, you have no idea what a range with the merchant.

194
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,940
They could, they could not be getting sats at all.

195
00:09:39,340 --> 00:09:40,039
Oh, that's true.

196
00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:40,340
Right.

197
00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:40,539
Yeah.

198
00:09:40,739 --> 00:09:43,140
There could be getting a swapped into USTC.

199
00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:45,640
They could just be getting something deposited to their checking

200
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:46,640
account the next day.

201
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:47,140
Yeah.

202
00:09:47,239 --> 00:09:47,539
Right.

203
00:09:47,739 --> 00:09:48,539
They could get anything.

204
00:09:48,539 --> 00:09:51,440
I mean, I guess the point is ultimately under the hood.

205
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,039
If you're using a custodial lightning and you're paying an LN

206
00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:55,640
invoice, unless it's coming.

207
00:09:56,039 --> 00:09:58,440
No, all this is, I think this is all false.

208
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,940
There's no, absolutely no guarantee that custodial because think

209
00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:04,640
about it like this.

210
00:10:04,739 --> 00:10:05,840
There's no, there's no way.

211
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:06,640
I mean, how else?

212
00:10:06,739 --> 00:10:11,039
No, the essential character of lightning, the dominant, the

213
00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:17,440
dominant feature of lightning beyond anything else is the number

214
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:23,140
one thing about lightning is the, that it constantly lies about

215
00:10:23,140 --> 00:10:23,840
what it is.

216
00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:28,039
So you have the primal to primals app that uses the lightning icon

217
00:10:28,739 --> 00:10:30,440
does not use any lightning transaction.

218
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,340
So then you have a stacker news.

219
00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:33,239
You have the lightning.

220
00:10:33,340 --> 00:10:34,940
I'll actually wait.

221
00:10:34,940 --> 00:10:35,340
I'm out.

222
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:36,140
I'm out.

223
00:10:36,140 --> 00:10:39,840
So Paul, you may have, you know, not been keeping up to date with

224
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,940
primal, but they're using Spark now because they're not, they're

225
00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:46,640
no longer using custodial lightning.

226
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:47,440
They're using trust.

227
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,440
So I've, no, I've stopped paying attention to that.

228
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,640
I'm happy to think I've stopped having this inflicted on my consciousness

229
00:10:53,940 --> 00:10:54,539
a while ago.

230
00:10:54,539 --> 00:10:59,340
But the thing is, it also doesn't matter because custodial format is

231
00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,539
the only way such a broken idea could even work.

232
00:11:05,739 --> 00:11:08,640
Because you can't onboard people unless they open channel the real

233
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:09,039
way.

234
00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:12,140
The whole thing, it has to, it has to be, you know what I mean?

235
00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:16,539
It's like, it's like a child who sees a magician and he thinks

236
00:11:16,539 --> 00:11:18,840
that he sees the magician saw a woman in half.

237
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,239
He says, Oh, cut a woman in half.

238
00:11:20,739 --> 00:11:22,739
And he goes back to his parents and tells them all about it.

239
00:11:23,539 --> 00:11:28,239
You, the parent already knows that it's custodial, custodial, but

240
00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:30,739
you know, they know that it's not real.

241
00:11:30,739 --> 00:11:31,640
They know what really happened.

242
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,239
And so it says, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but they switched

243
00:11:34,239 --> 00:11:37,940
from using, it switched from using a mannequin to using two women

244
00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:41,640
in the box to deceive the, to, to do the magic trick.

245
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:43,440
And it's like, it doesn't, none of that matters.

246
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,239
The point is you can't cut people in half that way without, and

247
00:11:47,239 --> 00:11:48,640
lightning is just, that's what it is.

248
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,340
Lightning is this idea that says we can, we can cut a human being

249
00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:55,840
in half, put them back together and everyone's being fooled by it

250
00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,940
constantly, except for the engineers who constantly come up to me

251
00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:03,640
in person and they whisper frightened words into my ear and say,

252
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,640
you're right about everything.

253
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,739
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

254
00:12:05,739 --> 00:12:09,539
All the people at tab conf at the debate last year, well, they all

255
00:12:09,539 --> 00:12:10,840
know that it's a dead end.

256
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,739
And this is further online, underlined by the movement to the

257
00:12:14,739 --> 00:12:18,140
movement, the custodial lightning and the movement to arc is all

258
00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:23,039
just underlining the rejection of lightning that everyone is experiencing.

259
00:12:24,239 --> 00:12:27,640
Well, or it's highlighting the fact that it's that we even talk

260
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:33,140
about it is preventing Bitcoin from highlighting the fact that

261
00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:35,440
lightning is ultimately just a bank to bank protocol.

262
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:37,239
Real quick.

263
00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:37,640
Well, yeah.

264
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:38,640
I mean, what difference does it make?

265
00:12:38,739 --> 00:12:42,239
Is there a point made to, to keep Bitcoin from scaling?

266
00:12:42,239 --> 00:12:43,140
So the price goes up.

267
00:12:43,739 --> 00:12:45,739
So when we get to that part of the market,

268
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,640
Well, I think it will only go up if people believe that it has a

269
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,039
future so it can, the price can go up before Bitcoin scales.

270
00:12:56,039 --> 00:12:56,739
As long as it's good.

271
00:12:57,039 --> 00:12:59,739
If you say, oh, I've invented this thing on Monday.

272
00:12:59,739 --> 00:13:00,340
Here it is.

273
00:13:00,340 --> 00:13:01,340
You show it to everyone.

274
00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:03,239
You can invest in it now.

275
00:13:03,340 --> 00:13:06,640
And if here it comes out Monday on Friday, it will scale to the

276
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:07,140
world.

277
00:13:08,539 --> 00:13:11,039
Well, yeah, it could be worth a lot on Monday and it could be going

278
00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,239
up and up and up in value Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

279
00:13:13,239 --> 00:13:15,440
Friday, and then it scales to the world.

280
00:13:15,739 --> 00:13:18,539
So it doesn't matter if it's Friday or 10 years from now, but

281
00:13:18,539 --> 00:13:22,840
people need to know, does it have a future where it actually will

282
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:23,340
scale?

283
00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:26,840
And if it does not, then the price, if it does, the price should

284
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,039
be really, really high today.

285
00:13:28,739 --> 00:13:31,239
And if it does not, then the price should be really, really low

286
00:13:31,239 --> 00:13:33,640
today because the final destination is zero.

287
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,840
I guess then the question is, do people need to believe that it

288
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,940
will scale noncustodially or are most people okay with it scaling

289
00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:42,739
custodially?

290
00:13:42,739 --> 00:13:46,140
And if that's the case, is that threat to its long-term survival?

291
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,340
There should be a mix, but I think there's a certain level of

292
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,140
custodial demand and there's a certain level of noncustodial

293
00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:53,539
demand.

294
00:13:53,539 --> 00:13:56,840
So as I said, there's the Canadian truckers and when everything's

295
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:03,340
custodial, that encourages people, that encourages, for

296
00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:09,440
example, like you can't have debanking unless most of the world

297
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,039
is custodial.

298
00:14:10,039 --> 00:14:14,640
But if like 20% of the world is self-sovereign and 80% or whatever,

299
00:14:14,940 --> 00:14:21,940
50-50, then you have to treat your custodial

300
00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:23,239
customers a lot better.

301
00:14:23,739 --> 00:14:28,039
So there's a certain portion of demand in each category and Bitcoin

302
00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:30,039
should try to gobble all of it up.

303
00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:31,640
We shouldn't leave anything on the table.

304
00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:34,640
If we gobble anything up, it's a risk that someone else will take

305
00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:39,039
that market and then we will not be able to have the network effect.

306
00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:43,340
But I think there's an enormous custodial, there's an enormous

307
00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:44,840
noncustodial demand.

308
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,140
So you're trying to say, oh, most normal people, how would you even

309
00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:48,539
know that?

310
00:14:48,539 --> 00:14:49,039
You know what I mean?

311
00:14:49,039 --> 00:14:51,440
Because most people don't even have the option and most people don't

312
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,239
even understand and the software today is so bad, you know, relative

313
00:14:56,239 --> 00:14:57,239
to where it could be.

314
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,940
Even Bitcoin rejects stuff like the 12-word feed.

315
00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:04,440
That was like one of the few things that the public was able to kind

316
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:05,539
of wrap their heads around.

317
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,440
And stuff like BIP-47, which would have gotten rid of the need for

318
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,440
these absurd addresses.

319
00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:14,539
All this stuff is rejected by Bitcoin.

320
00:15:14,539 --> 00:15:17,239
We're kicking people and even the treasury companies.

321
00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:24,140
All the stuff is, all the gas is being pressed on custodial world and

322
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:26,440
the brakes are being pressed on the noncustodial world.

323
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,440
And then this is attributed to demand.

324
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:32,140
I think that's very uncreative and not true.

325
00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:33,340
It's very inaccurate, I think.

326
00:15:41,239 --> 00:15:43,640
Sorry, the question is, how was BIP-47 rejected?

327
00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:46,239
Yeah, it wasn't Sam who was using BIP-47.

328
00:15:46,739 --> 00:15:48,539
It was in Bitcoin Core.

329
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,739
In Bitcoin Core, it was proposed in 2014 and then Luke was like

330
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,239
unanimously discouraged for implementation.

331
00:15:54,239 --> 00:15:54,739
So what?

332
00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:57,739
So you can still use BIP-47 without Bitcoin Core.

333
00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:02,340
I know, but it's a shame that we should be holding it up and

334
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:04,940
cheering and saying this is the greatest and it should be everywhere.

335
00:16:05,539 --> 00:16:07,039
Instead, it's only in Samurai.

336
00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:08,940
I disagree.

337
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:15,440
I think as long as other wallets and other third parties want to

338
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,840
integrate things that Bitcoin Core has, that's a good thing.

339
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,640
I mean, not enough people have implemented it to referendum on the

340
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,039
health of the overall Bitcoin community.

341
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,039
So the other thing, Paul, is like you can't, I mean, I think you're

342
00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:32,440
wanting for Core to be like a top-down, just like merge this thing

343
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,739
because I think it's a good idea.

344
00:16:33,739 --> 00:16:34,840
But you really need to show that.

345
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,140
Oh, it has to be a better idea.

346
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,440
Everyone knows that.

347
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,340
If it was such a great idea, then many more users would have adopted

348
00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:45,239
it and then maybe demanded Core merge it.

349
00:16:46,140 --> 00:16:50,239
No, the fact that Core didn't merge it proves how completely

350
00:16:50,239 --> 00:16:52,640
clueless they are in general.

351
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,340
Because so many people are closeted BIP-47 users.

352
00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:02,739
But hold on, why didn't you compete against Bitcoin Core?

353
00:17:02,739 --> 00:17:04,540
Why didn't you make your own implementation?

354
00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:05,040
I am now.

355
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,339
Now you're forking off.

356
00:17:07,339 --> 00:17:09,939
You're not creating your own, you're forking off the network.

357
00:17:11,939 --> 00:17:16,339
I'm saying why didn't you create your own implementation and done

358
00:17:16,339 --> 00:17:17,839
whatever policy you wanted to do?

359
00:17:17,939 --> 00:17:25,040
No, because it's very difficult the way, okay, first of all, you

360
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,040
can't just make a new front end to Bitcoin because of the way that

361
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,540
Qt is like woven into the C++.

362
00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:32,640
So it's just a weird quirk.

363
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:38,640
It could have done what Notts did or you could have done what Eric

364
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:39,540
is doing with LitBitcoin.

365
00:17:40,439 --> 00:17:42,939
You could have done it from scratch or you could have just forked

366
00:17:42,939 --> 00:17:45,339
Core and done whatever policy you wanted to do.

367
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,140
Well, that is what I'm doing now.

368
00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:50,439
I had no idea they were so stupid.

369
00:17:50,439 --> 00:17:54,540
I'm talking about creating another implementation of a Bitcoin node.

370
00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:55,739
No, no, no.

371
00:17:55,739 --> 00:17:59,040
So there's many different implementations that...

372
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,040
It could be either or.

373
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,739
Yeah, it could be either or, but there's Bitcoin, there's Notts.

374
00:18:03,739 --> 00:18:08,540
By the way, there is a new front end fork that's pretty sleek.

375
00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:10,040
It's not on mainnet yet.

376
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,839
I know, but the fact that it's taking until 2026, this just proves

377
00:18:13,839 --> 00:18:17,040
my point about how completely clueless these people are.

378
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,140
You could have competed against those people that are clueless with

379
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:22,239
your own implementation.

380
00:18:22,239 --> 00:18:23,140
I know, and now I am.

381
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:26,439
No, you're creating a different freaking chain.

382
00:18:26,439 --> 00:18:27,640
You're not competing against Core.

383
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,140
You're competing against Bitcoin now instead of just competing

384
00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:31,939
against Bitcoin Core.

385
00:18:31,939 --> 00:18:35,540
Well, it would be one thing if it was just bit 47, but it's actually

386
00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:35,939
everything.

387
00:18:35,939 --> 00:18:39,540
But you could have done everything that you wanted to do.

388
00:18:39,540 --> 00:18:41,439
You didn't need Bitcoin Core to do these things.

389
00:18:41,439 --> 00:18:43,140
This is what I was trying to tell you for fucking 12 years.

390
00:18:43,339 --> 00:18:44,540
You don't need Bitcoin Core.

391
00:18:45,739 --> 00:18:46,839
No, I disagree.

392
00:18:46,839 --> 00:18:51,040
I think Bitcoin Core has a de facto monopoly on the Bitcoin brand.

393
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,540
But if you created these features that are wanted by the market, people

394
00:18:55,540 --> 00:18:59,040
would migrate away from Bitcoin Core to your implementation.

395
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,839
I don't see, I don't think that, no, I disagree with that.

396
00:19:02,939 --> 00:19:03,439
Why?

397
00:19:04,439 --> 00:19:05,839
I just explained why.

398
00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:08,040
I think there's a Bitcoin Core has this brand.

399
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,239
No one wants to run things other than Bitcoin Core.

400
00:19:10,439 --> 00:19:14,739
If there's, if you disagree by just one bite with, if you have almost

401
00:19:14,739 --> 00:19:19,439
the exact same chain and you're one bite off, then it will split the

402
00:19:19,439 --> 00:19:20,040
network.

403
00:19:20,339 --> 00:19:24,540
But people have a well-known post about this saying that he thinks the

404
00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:27,239
second implementation would be a menace to the network and shouldn't

405
00:19:27,239 --> 00:19:27,839
be built.

406
00:19:28,540 --> 00:19:32,439
The lib Bitcoin, you know, is further proof that Bitcoin Core is terrible

407
00:19:32,439 --> 00:19:33,640
at their jobs, I think.

408
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,239
But the fact that people won't switch, you know, you can't switch to

409
00:19:36,239 --> 00:19:36,739
it.

410
00:19:36,935 --> 00:19:44,175
You're, you're locked in. It's like saying, why not make a new Microsoft Word or something, or why not make a different QWERTY keyboard or something like that?

411
00:19:44,175 --> 00:19:49,735
It's the network effect runs in the, it becomes a prison when it becomes Bitcoin Core.

412
00:19:50,215 --> 00:19:56,055
We haven't had, if we had, if Bitcoin Core wanted more competition, you know, there would have been ways to do that.

413
00:19:56,055 --> 00:20:00,494
But I don't think that they do to facilitate further competing.

414
00:20:01,255 --> 00:20:04,215
It's kind of like saying, you know, you go to a restaurant, you're saying, why did they do this?

415
00:20:04,415 --> 00:20:08,335
You know, it has to reach a certain threshold before you say, you know, and I'm going to start my own restaurant.

416
00:20:08,494 --> 00:20:12,615
Then you have to worry, hey, if I start my own restaurant, maybe the first restaurant will suddenly shape up.

417
00:20:12,615 --> 00:20:15,655
Like maybe Bitcoin Core will start merge, they'll merge BIP47.

418
00:20:16,135 --> 00:20:17,574
So it's not so simple at all.

419
00:20:17,574 --> 00:20:20,694
No, but dude, but BIP47 wasn't a consensus change.

420
00:20:20,694 --> 00:20:23,534
You could have added BIP47 to your own implementation.

421
00:20:23,975 --> 00:20:25,054
That's not the issue.

422
00:20:25,054 --> 00:20:29,335
The issue is good ideas that they foolishly reject.

423
00:20:30,255 --> 00:20:35,775
So if they were that foolish, they would start losing dominance and there would be a different implementation.

424
00:20:36,214 --> 00:20:37,655
Yes, they will. That is what will happen.

425
00:20:38,255 --> 00:20:39,615
But it's not going to happen overnight.

426
00:20:39,615 --> 00:20:41,295
What? You're not making any sense.

427
00:20:41,655 --> 00:20:44,574
A minute ago, you said that they have a monopoly, no one will switch over.

428
00:20:44,774 --> 00:20:46,494
Now you're saying they will switch over.

429
00:20:47,574 --> 00:20:50,335
No, I'm saying they're going to kill off BTC probably.

430
00:20:50,335 --> 00:20:54,415
And then why would they kill off BTC?

431
00:20:54,415 --> 00:20:57,174
I don't think they're doing a better job than Bitcoin Core.

432
00:20:57,174 --> 00:20:58,134
Why couldn't that be you?

433
00:21:00,894 --> 00:21:02,214
No, that is me.

434
00:21:02,214 --> 00:21:03,814
This isn't a realistic kind of picture.

435
00:21:07,814 --> 00:21:09,255
Well, I don't know, maybe you just.

436
00:21:10,655 --> 00:21:15,494
I don't know what to tell you, they they do lots of stuff that's nonsensical,

437
00:21:15,695 --> 00:21:20,015
which includes extremely serious things, not doing the thought forward.

438
00:21:22,494 --> 00:21:24,574
I could understand the whole

439
00:21:25,574 --> 00:21:27,854
not, you know, you can't get your fork in.

440
00:21:27,854 --> 00:21:28,814
They're not listening to you.

441
00:21:28,814 --> 00:21:32,894
So you just go and fork it yourself and create a UTXO for it.

442
00:21:32,894 --> 00:21:34,735
That's fine. I could understand that part.

443
00:21:35,055 --> 00:21:39,375
But that's not what I think that Bitcoin is doing a bad job with Bitcoin.

444
00:21:39,615 --> 00:21:41,735
Yes. And you could like that.

445
00:21:41,735 --> 00:21:45,694
OK, you could have just had your own implementation, just like Luke is doing,

446
00:21:45,694 --> 00:21:49,935
just like there's many people out there that Bitcoin and Bitcoin.

447
00:21:49,935 --> 00:21:52,015
There's a lot of people that created their own implementations.

448
00:21:52,455 --> 00:21:54,614
Yeah, they didn't do as well as Bitcoin Corp.,

449
00:21:54,614 --> 00:21:56,255
but maybe their ideas weren't good enough.

450
00:21:56,255 --> 00:21:59,854
Maybe you have the right ideas and you could have made Bitcoin better.

451
00:21:59,974 --> 00:22:03,614
But instead, you're forcing Bitcoin's UTXO set into a shitcoin

452
00:22:03,774 --> 00:22:06,574
and now you're going to compete against Bitcoin.

453
00:22:06,574 --> 00:22:10,134
I don't believe it's possible to compete against Bitcoin Corp.

454
00:22:11,255 --> 00:22:13,574
Without creating a new form.

455
00:22:13,574 --> 00:22:15,494
But it's possible to compete against Bitcoin?

456
00:22:15,494 --> 00:22:16,535
Yeah, that's the only way.

457
00:22:18,774 --> 00:22:21,535
Dude. All right.

458
00:22:21,574 --> 00:22:23,935
I don't know if that line of reasoning really makes much sense, Paul.

459
00:22:24,974 --> 00:22:27,774
There's a whole long list of crazy things Bitcoin Corp. has done.

460
00:22:28,655 --> 00:22:31,494
And the fact that you competed against them,

461
00:22:31,494 --> 00:22:34,455
you could have been an implementation and competed against them.

462
00:22:34,655 --> 00:22:37,494
And then the market would realize that they're idiots and you're smart.

463
00:22:37,774 --> 00:22:40,255
No, because the competition is multi-factor.

464
00:22:40,974 --> 00:22:45,895
So if the network split, then it becomes a popularity contest.

465
00:22:45,895 --> 00:22:46,735
There's a huge cost.

466
00:22:46,735 --> 00:22:49,015
But there would be but there wouldn't be a split.

467
00:22:49,054 --> 00:22:52,494
You would be adding things to like policy wise.

468
00:22:54,015 --> 00:22:56,614
I don't think you're familiar enough with the technical details.

469
00:22:57,175 --> 00:22:57,854
Sorry to say.

470
00:22:58,974 --> 00:23:01,095
But not not split the network, right?

471
00:23:01,895 --> 00:23:05,015
And Bitcoin didn't split the network.

472
00:23:05,015 --> 00:23:09,054
The claim that not is like significantly different from Bitcoin Corp.

473
00:23:09,054 --> 00:23:09,735
is based on.

474
00:23:09,735 --> 00:23:13,214
We know that it's a it's not.

475
00:23:13,214 --> 00:23:16,015
The point is that you're still in Bitcoin is different.

476
00:23:16,054 --> 00:23:17,015
So let me ask you this.

477
00:23:17,015 --> 00:23:20,694
Given that LibBitcoin, given that LibBitcoin syncs much faster

478
00:23:20,854 --> 00:23:24,175
and given that it doesn't do any assume valid shortcuts,

479
00:23:24,535 --> 00:23:26,334
and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

480
00:23:26,334 --> 00:23:29,455
So given that LibBitcoin is basically better than Bitcoin Corp.

481
00:23:29,455 --> 00:23:32,694
in many, many ways, why haven't people adopted it?

482
00:23:32,694 --> 00:23:34,414
Let me ask you that question.

483
00:23:34,414 --> 00:23:35,974
Well, for one, it's not out yet.

484
00:23:35,974 --> 00:23:37,214
There's nothing to download.

485
00:23:37,214 --> 00:23:39,694
That's for one reason.

486
00:23:41,054 --> 00:23:44,455
But you see, this is like the second reason,

487
00:23:44,455 --> 00:23:49,494
I think for people that review.

488
00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:49,974
That's right.

489
00:23:49,974 --> 00:23:50,375
All right.

490
00:23:50,375 --> 00:23:52,975
The second factor.

491
00:23:52,975 --> 00:23:55,334
For people that are already synced to ChainTip,

492
00:23:55,614 --> 00:23:59,975
I don't think faster IDB times is like they care about that.

493
00:24:00,054 --> 00:24:00,535
They're ready.

494
00:24:00,535 --> 00:24:01,894
They're ready.

495
00:24:01,894 --> 00:24:02,815
They're ready on the chain.

496
00:24:02,815 --> 00:24:03,695
That's exactly right.

497
00:24:03,695 --> 00:24:07,855
They there's there are other factors other than quality that people care about.

498
00:24:07,855 --> 00:24:11,054
And one of them is, am I on the same Bitcoin network as everyone else?

499
00:24:11,734 --> 00:24:14,655
And that's why they have to stick with core, no matter how bad it is.

500
00:24:15,415 --> 00:24:18,454
There's some competition, but they're not the most widely,

501
00:24:18,494 --> 00:24:23,174
the most widely adopted Bitcoin notification today is zero to nine,

502
00:24:23,415 --> 00:24:26,214
not zero, three, one, two, 27, actually.

503
00:24:27,214 --> 00:24:29,454
Oh, 27, even further back.

504
00:24:29,454 --> 00:24:33,935
The most popular Bitcoin Corp version is like seven versions behind.

505
00:24:33,935 --> 00:24:34,334
Yeah, I know.

506
00:24:34,334 --> 00:24:36,655
I don't upgrade mine unless I want to.

507
00:24:37,174 --> 00:24:38,014
Are you worried?

508
00:24:38,014 --> 00:24:40,935
Are you worried that the version that you're running today

509
00:24:40,935 --> 00:24:41,695
is going to forego?

510
00:24:41,695 --> 00:24:43,255
There might be a consensus failure.

511
00:24:43,255 --> 00:24:45,095
It's Bitcoin Corp is the brand.

512
00:24:45,095 --> 00:24:46,975
It's the brand of Bitcoin Corp.

513
00:24:46,975 --> 00:24:49,095
And it's the fact that it's the same repo.

514
00:24:49,095 --> 00:24:50,255
It's the same keys.

515
00:24:50,255 --> 00:24:52,535
It's the same maintainers.

516
00:24:52,535 --> 00:24:54,334
It's the brand.

517
00:24:54,334 --> 00:24:55,095
But it's different.

518
00:24:55,095 --> 00:24:56,774
It's completely different maintainers.

519
00:24:56,774 --> 00:25:00,174
And now, like, I can't name you more than probably three or four developers

520
00:25:00,174 --> 00:25:02,494
that have contributed to Bitcoin Corp today.

521
00:25:03,054 --> 00:25:05,095
Yeah, but it's the it's the same project.

522
00:25:05,894 --> 00:25:07,855
It's the same project is the same brand.

523
00:25:09,014 --> 00:25:10,494
All right.

524
00:25:10,494 --> 00:25:14,174
Well, I guess the only way to disrupt the project is if ever.

525
00:25:14,174 --> 00:25:14,774
Let me ask you this.

526
00:25:14,774 --> 00:25:16,815
Do you think there's ever multi-factor competition?

527
00:25:16,815 --> 00:25:20,655
Like, do you think the best idea just always just comes out the next day

528
00:25:20,655 --> 00:25:25,054
and then it and then it replaces the I think I think Bitcoin

529
00:25:25,054 --> 00:25:28,415
needs to be good enough for it to continue doing what it's been doing.

530
00:25:29,734 --> 00:25:32,614
And I think that's why it's been where it is,

531
00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:34,214
and that's why shit coins don't have staying power.

532
00:25:34,214 --> 00:25:36,655
I think that's why shit coins are like, you know, they pump and dump.

533
00:25:37,255 --> 00:25:39,695
Bitcoin has it like that's the difference.

534
00:25:40,975 --> 00:25:42,415
I think it's just good enough.

535
00:25:42,415 --> 00:25:43,855
And what it does.

536
00:25:43,855 --> 00:25:47,095
So, Paul, if it's the brand like,

537
00:25:48,095 --> 00:25:50,614
you know, are you my biggest question here is like,

538
00:25:50,614 --> 00:25:53,334
you think that's that's the trivial thing to fork away?

539
00:25:54,014 --> 00:25:57,095
I don't see how the brand is the impossible thing to replicate.

540
00:25:57,655 --> 00:26:01,614
Yeah, it has a brand of reliability of years of reliability.

541
00:26:01,855 --> 00:26:06,375
So it can then suck horribly as an actual objective

542
00:26:06,774 --> 00:26:08,095
fact of the matter.

543
00:26:08,095 --> 00:26:10,855
But what you're saying, though, is that that's effective.

544
00:26:10,855 --> 00:26:14,135
What you have to replicate when you create the shit coin is you have to create

545
00:26:14,334 --> 00:26:17,135
a new brand that starts sort of from zero.

546
00:26:17,334 --> 00:26:20,415
I mean, from zero perceptually in many ways for most people.

547
00:26:20,935 --> 00:26:24,815
Exactly. So that's you don't see that as like an intractable uphill battle

548
00:26:24,815 --> 00:26:29,375
that others have fought and sort of the bodies are on the field, as it were.

549
00:26:32,214 --> 00:26:33,375
Will it be difficult? Yes.

550
00:26:33,375 --> 00:26:36,054
But I think it also is maxes out. It's nonlinear.

551
00:26:36,054 --> 00:26:38,774
So like, I think the way it works is people see, oh, has this been running

552
00:26:38,774 --> 00:26:41,655
for like six weeks, six, excuse me, like six months to a year?

553
00:26:42,294 --> 00:26:45,815
And then that's kind of good enough.

554
00:26:45,815 --> 00:26:48,255
So then I think you can tie after like two years.

555
00:26:51,294 --> 00:26:53,255
But that's something that you would never get.

556
00:26:53,255 --> 00:26:56,214
Bitcoin can never get that because no one wants to be the first through the door.

557
00:26:56,375 --> 00:26:57,415
You'll never have people.

558
00:26:57,415 --> 00:27:00,734
You never have the majority of the network trying it for six months

559
00:27:01,214 --> 00:27:05,334
because you'll never get how much Bitcoin is getting right now.

560
00:27:06,294 --> 00:27:08,894
I think it's getting more hate today than it got in 2015.

561
00:27:09,734 --> 00:27:13,454
Because Bitcoin Core is objectively terrible and they are lazy and complacent.

562
00:27:13,454 --> 00:27:16,774
And so this is a time for discussion.

563
00:27:17,774 --> 00:27:19,695
But I didn't hear it. I didn't catch that.

564
00:27:22,014 --> 00:27:24,095
What did you say? I didn't hear the last part.

565
00:27:26,054 --> 00:27:28,415
He said it's prime time to build your own client.

566
00:27:28,774 --> 00:27:30,935
That's exactly. No, that is what I'm doing.

567
00:27:30,935 --> 00:27:33,494
That is not a hard fork.

568
00:27:33,494 --> 00:27:37,614
No, but I don't think I don't think, again, you can't.

569
00:27:38,734 --> 00:27:41,095
I just like I don't know how I can be any more clear.

570
00:27:41,095 --> 00:27:42,855
You don't have a client.

571
00:27:42,855 --> 00:27:45,214
It's like you need it's like you need permission from the government.

572
00:27:45,214 --> 00:27:47,255
It's like you need a medallion or a license.

573
00:27:47,255 --> 00:27:50,695
And they'll only give you the license if you've been running.

574
00:27:51,095 --> 00:27:52,975
This is a metaphor for the brand.

575
00:27:52,975 --> 00:27:56,375
They only give it to you if you have been if most people have been

576
00:27:56,375 --> 00:28:00,935
if a huge, critical mass of people have been trusting you for six to 12 months.

577
00:28:01,734 --> 00:28:04,255
So that's the barrier to entry.

578
00:28:04,255 --> 00:28:06,935
And you can never afford that.

579
00:28:06,935 --> 00:28:09,215
You cannot. There's no way of obtaining that.

580
00:28:09,654 --> 00:28:11,614
So it's infinity cost.

581
00:28:11,614 --> 00:28:13,335
So you cannot release a new client.

582
00:28:13,335 --> 00:28:14,734
There's no such thing.

583
00:28:16,174 --> 00:28:20,015
You can just release a client that is comparable to Bitcoin Core.

584
00:28:20,054 --> 00:28:22,854
But you're saying you're in six to 12 months, you're going to gain.

585
00:28:23,494 --> 00:28:26,135
You're able to gain the trust if you just sort of fork it.

586
00:28:26,174 --> 00:28:28,455
Well, it will be slightly different because it'll be a different thing.

587
00:28:28,455 --> 00:28:31,815
But people will say, well, at least this this L1 node.

588
00:28:33,015 --> 00:28:36,054
Has been running over here with this other network for a while.

589
00:28:36,294 --> 00:28:38,854
Doesn't that overlook all the same other thing?

590
00:28:39,015 --> 00:28:40,494
You're the trusted third party here.

591
00:28:40,494 --> 00:28:41,974
You're the single developer here, man.

592
00:28:41,974 --> 00:28:43,695
Well, how is that?

593
00:28:43,695 --> 00:28:47,054
Yeah. Doesn't it go into you're overlooking all the other things

594
00:28:47,054 --> 00:28:48,575
that I think take even longer?

595
00:28:48,575 --> 00:28:51,974
There's no eCash now doesn't need any developers

596
00:28:51,974 --> 00:28:54,294
because the L1 is literally just a fork of Bitcoin.

597
00:28:54,294 --> 00:28:56,494
And it's literally just if you go on GitHub,

598
00:28:56,494 --> 00:29:01,575
it's even hasn't even been renamed to mean the to limit the number of lines of code.

599
00:29:01,575 --> 00:29:03,614
What what version is it forked off of?

600
00:29:03,895 --> 00:29:05,775
It will be always the latest version.

601
00:29:05,775 --> 00:29:08,695
So just you just keep clicking merge on the changes.

602
00:29:09,614 --> 00:29:12,494
So it's always going to rely on Bitcoin Core existing.

603
00:29:12,494 --> 00:29:15,455
Basically, it will always tie Bitcoin Core for as long as Bitcoin Core.

604
00:29:16,015 --> 00:29:20,654
So so the success of eCash is basically Bitcoin Core succeeding.

605
00:29:20,815 --> 00:29:21,695
The same is not.

606
00:29:21,734 --> 00:29:25,935
Oh, if it was a copy until Bitcoin Core

607
00:29:27,215 --> 00:29:28,854
updating. Yeah.

608
00:29:28,854 --> 00:29:30,854
Or Bitcoin Core just like goes away.

609
00:29:31,494 --> 00:29:33,654
Or there could always be other people who work.

610
00:29:33,895 --> 00:29:35,054
Then what are you going to do?

611
00:29:35,054 --> 00:29:36,935
And what happens if Bitcoin Core goes away?

612
00:29:36,935 --> 00:29:38,335
Then we just carry on.

613
00:29:38,335 --> 00:29:40,414
Then we'll just carry on and leave it exactly where it was.

614
00:29:40,854 --> 00:29:41,974
Can I can I ask a question?

615
00:29:41,974 --> 00:29:43,734
So you talked about the technical side.

616
00:29:43,734 --> 00:29:47,575
And let's assume let's just assume, you know, you're six to 12 months.

617
00:29:47,974 --> 00:29:52,015
Everyone technically now feels that the implementation, the code,

618
00:29:52,455 --> 00:29:56,815
what the system is by design is solid because you've you've run it

619
00:29:56,815 --> 00:29:58,054
for six to 12 months.

620
00:29:58,054 --> 00:30:00,455
That's one aspect, I think, of people

621
00:30:00,854 --> 00:30:03,854
sort of putting their faith in something is the technical architecture.

622
00:30:04,294 --> 00:30:07,255
But then isn't there and I guess this depends on what you think

623
00:30:07,255 --> 00:30:11,375
the value proposition of this fork is, isn't the other part of that

624
00:30:11,375 --> 00:30:15,815
like the monetary trust, the governance trust,

625
00:30:15,815 --> 00:30:19,135
the social trust, which seems like it would take.

626
00:30:19,335 --> 00:30:21,815
No, that seems like it would take five times as long,

627
00:30:21,815 --> 00:30:24,094
10 times as long to build that sort of trust.

628
00:30:25,575 --> 00:30:28,734
I think some of it bleeds over where before when Bitcoin came out,

629
00:30:28,734 --> 00:30:31,775
no one had heard of any cryptocurrencies, and there were early on,

630
00:30:31,775 --> 00:30:36,854
there were lots and lots of debates that went for hours and days and weeks.

631
00:30:37,815 --> 00:30:41,654
People would debate things like, can something have any value at all

632
00:30:41,854 --> 00:30:44,054
if it's not a physical object?

633
00:30:44,494 --> 00:30:48,335
So people had long, long, long debates about all this minutia.

634
00:30:48,775 --> 00:30:53,455
And only a few people such as myself, I would tell people, I would say,

635
00:30:53,455 --> 00:30:55,614
hey, listen, numbers, words are intangible.

636
00:30:55,614 --> 00:30:56,294
Raise your hand.

637
00:30:56,294 --> 00:31:00,654
I do a demonstration where I'd say, raise your hand if you think words have no value.

638
00:31:02,094 --> 00:31:04,614
And, you know, it's like words are independent.

639
00:31:04,614 --> 00:31:05,575
So I go down the list.

640
00:31:05,575 --> 00:31:08,455
But the point is, a lot of stuff was confusing back then.

641
00:31:08,455 --> 00:31:10,094
Like people didn't know how addresses work.

642
00:31:10,094 --> 00:31:12,494
People didn't know how change worked.

643
00:31:14,054 --> 00:31:15,895
So lots of stuff was really, really confusing.

644
00:31:15,895 --> 00:31:16,974
Some of that would bleed over.

645
00:31:16,974 --> 00:31:20,895
Now everyone kind of understands that crypto is a thing and that it's kind of like

646
00:31:21,255 --> 00:31:26,174
slightly dark in that a lot of illegal people and scammers use it

647
00:31:26,174 --> 00:31:28,414
and that there's privacy advocates who use it.

648
00:31:28,414 --> 00:31:30,734
So so a lot of it would bleed over, I think.

649
00:31:31,534 --> 00:31:34,174
The the the relevant the only reason

650
00:31:36,255 --> 00:31:43,135
basically the eCash fork is basically a hedge against the failure of BTC.

651
00:31:43,294 --> 00:31:46,215
So if BTC succeeds, then I'll be just fine.

652
00:31:46,215 --> 00:31:47,575
I'll be very happy.

653
00:31:47,575 --> 00:31:51,895
But I just like, you know, I have my eyes open and everything is a lot.

654
00:31:51,895 --> 00:31:55,335
There's tons of terrible things going on in BTC that are not getting any better.

655
00:31:55,614 --> 00:31:56,935
A lot of them are getting worse.

656
00:31:56,935 --> 00:31:58,054
It's a good thing.

657
00:31:58,054 --> 00:32:02,494
The knots 110 people have at least shined a light on how terrible Bitcoin Core is.

658
00:32:02,775 --> 00:32:07,494
And Bitcoin Core gets worse every year because it hides behind this brand,

659
00:32:08,054 --> 00:32:10,255
this monopoly brand that it has.

660
00:32:10,255 --> 00:32:12,294
And that's the situation.

661
00:32:12,335 --> 00:32:13,135
What do you think?

662
00:32:13,135 --> 00:32:15,974
Can you or can you enumerate the top three things you think are wrong

663
00:32:15,974 --> 00:32:19,414
with Bitcoin Core that are not just like esoteric government or government?

664
00:32:20,335 --> 00:32:24,015
I think the one we could go on for many hours about is that they

665
00:32:24,015 --> 00:32:27,375
they treat the soft fork as though it's different from any other code change,

666
00:32:27,695 --> 00:32:30,974
which is absurd, because you can do with one line of code.

667
00:32:30,974 --> 00:32:32,015
You could destroy everything.

668
00:32:32,015 --> 00:32:32,854
And this happened a lot.

669
00:32:32,854 --> 00:32:36,255
And even when Matt Corral tried to do his tiny little speed up,

670
00:32:36,255 --> 00:32:38,534
he actually created an inflation bug, which is perfectly fine.

671
00:32:38,534 --> 00:32:39,775
I'm not trying to criticize that.

672
00:32:39,775 --> 00:32:43,734
I'm just pointing out that trying to speed up something

673
00:32:43,734 --> 00:32:48,734
by a few like millionths of a second can create an inflation bug,

674
00:32:49,775 --> 00:32:51,335
even though that's not a hard or soft.

675
00:32:51,335 --> 00:32:53,015
It wasn't intended to be a hard or soft fork.

676
00:32:53,015 --> 00:32:54,455
It was just something like anything else.

677
00:32:54,455 --> 00:32:57,734
The fact that you do 1% hashrate needs to run a soft fork

678
00:32:57,734 --> 00:33:02,575
before users can use it safely is just that's just a tiny detail.

679
00:33:02,775 --> 00:33:04,215
And there's nothing special about that.

680
00:33:04,215 --> 00:33:05,294
And we shouldn't have any of these debate.

681
00:33:05,294 --> 00:33:07,974
We should activate all the soft forks

682
00:33:07,974 --> 00:33:08,935
that have been proposed,

683
00:33:08,935 --> 00:33:13,015
all the ones that are up or up success based.

684
00:33:13,974 --> 00:33:17,094
So but then here's the thing is the official policy of Bitcoin Core

685
00:33:17,094 --> 00:33:19,174
is not to touch anything if it's controversial.

686
00:33:19,974 --> 00:33:21,654
So if.

687
00:33:23,255 --> 00:33:26,094
And one funny thing about that is that even though

688
00:33:27,215 --> 00:33:31,135
Ava Chao said that to me in person and then said it on

689
00:33:32,854 --> 00:33:34,974
online on Twitter, you have all kinds of people

690
00:33:34,974 --> 00:33:37,294
who would come up to me and say, oh, that's not true or whatever.

691
00:33:37,974 --> 00:33:41,614
Even though it's it's obviously true and they admit that it's true.

692
00:33:41,614 --> 00:33:44,654
But then you have people like Nick Jonas saying that I'm slandering people

693
00:33:44,654 --> 00:33:47,815
and putting words in people's mouths, it's all freely available on Twitter.

694
00:33:48,135 --> 00:33:49,614
So there's this whole bizarre.

695
00:33:49,614 --> 00:33:52,455
So but I'm rolling all these up. Yes, we're a top three.

696
00:33:52,455 --> 00:33:55,654
I'm rolling this all up into one thing, which is they refuse to do anything,

697
00:33:55,775 --> 00:33:58,494
quote, controversial, close quote.

698
00:33:59,854 --> 00:34:02,854
And where controversy is measured in some like by Twitter or something,

699
00:34:02,854 --> 00:34:05,015
basically, and you can see how they manufactured

700
00:34:05,575 --> 00:34:08,054
controversy over upper return.

701
00:34:08,054 --> 00:34:10,695
And just like they do over every soft fork.

702
00:34:11,015 --> 00:34:16,614
So that that whole thing is is one giant thing that's huge.

703
00:34:18,255 --> 00:34:21,815
I think it's hard to pick a second thing after that giant first thing.

704
00:34:21,815 --> 00:34:25,695
But there's a couple other things like Core does not encourage competition at all.

705
00:34:25,695 --> 00:34:29,935
So they don't encourage it, which there are many things they could do.

706
00:34:29,974 --> 00:34:31,614
These would be of totally different flavors.

707
00:34:31,614 --> 00:34:34,815
But one is if they just prioritize sidechains in the first place,

708
00:34:34,815 --> 00:34:39,054
then at least if people hate L1, they could escape to an L2

709
00:34:39,614 --> 00:34:41,775
blockchain that they might actually like.

710
00:34:42,294 --> 00:34:44,734
So that would be one thing that would help.

711
00:34:44,734 --> 00:34:47,695
A second thing, I'm still trying to roll this all up into the second point.

712
00:34:48,614 --> 00:34:52,094
Because but they could have it could be some kind of like a team, B team,

713
00:34:52,294 --> 00:34:54,614
you know, red team, blue team or something like that,

714
00:34:54,614 --> 00:34:58,695
where there's at least like two halves that compete.

715
00:34:59,494 --> 00:35:02,895
And, you know, that are maybe like some kind of stakes.

716
00:35:03,174 --> 00:35:05,895
See, this is all related to the fact that they don't want anyone to, like,

717
00:35:05,895 --> 00:35:09,255
sue them or be put in jail or something, which I completely understand.

718
00:35:09,255 --> 00:35:12,494
But as a result, it means there's no accountability in the project.

719
00:35:13,094 --> 00:35:16,654
So these are huge systemic flaws that are like

720
00:35:17,255 --> 00:35:19,414
they're just crippling the project.

721
00:35:21,174 --> 00:35:24,135
We can go down like a number of specific things.

722
00:35:24,135 --> 00:35:27,494
Don't you think some of those things are almost inherent

723
00:35:27,494 --> 00:35:31,775
when you get to a certain level of adoption and seriousness?

724
00:35:31,974 --> 00:35:35,375
You know, when you when you start having a book called The Innovator's Dilemma

725
00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:39,895
that says that actually death is necessary in the economy,

726
00:35:39,895 --> 00:35:42,974
like you have to have companies going out of business because at a certain point,

727
00:35:43,375 --> 00:35:46,695
every organization becomes inefficient

728
00:35:47,094 --> 00:35:49,654
because you've got things were taken for granted in, you know,

729
00:35:49,654 --> 00:35:52,695
1992 that aren't true in 2002.

730
00:35:52,695 --> 00:35:54,494
And I think there was the problem.

731
00:35:57,015 --> 00:35:59,094
There's a problem here, though, that this is a monetary network.

732
00:35:59,094 --> 00:36:00,455
I totally understand what you're saying.

733
00:36:00,455 --> 00:36:03,455
Creative destruction of capitalism, you know, the analogy there.

734
00:36:03,455 --> 00:36:07,654
But typically that's with like companies that are producing like, hey, man,

735
00:36:07,654 --> 00:36:11,734
I bought a cool new phone or I bought like a, you know, this device or something.

736
00:36:11,734 --> 00:36:13,215
Now there's another company making it.

737
00:36:13,215 --> 00:36:15,414
My switching cost is zero. It's not super scary.

738
00:36:15,815 --> 00:36:19,815
Like the idea that we would have like rapid creative destruction

739
00:36:19,815 --> 00:36:24,174
measured in the order of 15 years on entire monetary systems,

740
00:36:24,494 --> 00:36:27,534
I think, is a little bit beyond the pale and sort of only one,

741
00:36:27,534 --> 00:36:31,575
because most people don't accept most normal people do not accept that Bitcoin

742
00:36:31,575 --> 00:36:34,414
is money. So if you talk to like normal,

743
00:36:34,614 --> 00:36:37,174
even like people who participate in the culture,

744
00:36:37,614 --> 00:36:41,294
we're talking like CNN reporters or something like that.

745
00:36:41,894 --> 00:36:46,414
Those most of those people don't believe that they just think this is some weird

746
00:36:47,455 --> 00:36:48,294
investment thing.

747
00:36:50,174 --> 00:36:51,735
I think we have to say, we have to say,

748
00:36:51,735 --> 00:36:54,695
if I'm saying how much do we really lose? I'm saying how much do we,

749
00:36:54,935 --> 00:36:58,095
if we sacrifice a trillion dollars in market cap,

750
00:36:58,095 --> 00:37:01,495
but if you had a trillion dollars in market cap that just evaporated because the

751
00:37:01,495 --> 00:37:05,735
underlying company disappeared, all shareholders were hung out to dry.

752
00:37:05,735 --> 00:37:07,935
And you're like, Oh, don't worry. There's a new company in town.

753
00:37:07,935 --> 00:37:10,254
What you're saying is it's inconvenient where you're saying,

754
00:37:10,254 --> 00:37:14,335
you're saying correctly that it's inconvenient for people to keep switching

755
00:37:15,455 --> 00:37:18,095
monetary monetary basis. I mean, the equivalent,

756
00:37:18,254 --> 00:37:21,575
I'm saying we're really only have to do it once because if someone does a second

757
00:37:22,134 --> 00:37:23,495
apparently it was twice, right?

758
00:37:24,095 --> 00:37:27,935
Well, yeah. You mean one from Fiat to BTC and then once from BTC to ETF.

759
00:37:28,335 --> 00:37:31,534
That would be correct. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay. Well, you know,

760
00:37:31,534 --> 00:37:35,174
Hey, everyone wants to be the only Highlander, right? I mean,

761
00:37:35,174 --> 00:37:38,254
I feel like that's kind of like a, like, I don't want to be the,

762
00:37:38,294 --> 00:37:41,575
I don't want to do the eCash fork at all. It, if,

763
00:37:41,894 --> 00:37:46,414
if Bitcoin Core didn't suck so much, I wouldn't do it. I was forced to do it.

764
00:37:46,414 --> 00:37:49,774
Man. I just look, I feel like it would eventually get to the same.

765
00:37:49,975 --> 00:37:52,975
It would get to the same thing. You, you'd, you'd feel it.

766
00:37:52,975 --> 00:37:54,935
If ETFs adopt the eCash fork,

767
00:37:54,935 --> 00:37:59,254
if everyone was putting just major skin in the game and like countries started

768
00:37:59,254 --> 00:38:03,014
buying it and stuff, it would eventually get to the point where it was, you know,

769
00:38:03,014 --> 00:38:06,174
it was pretty difficult to pass things without, you know, majority of super.

770
00:38:06,335 --> 00:38:07,575
I agree, but the L2,

771
00:38:07,575 --> 00:38:12,335
that's why it's built into the L2 ecosystem that you can launch a new

772
00:38:13,095 --> 00:38:17,534
L2 and the existing L2s can't stop you. So that's,

773
00:38:17,534 --> 00:38:21,575
that's the error correction is built in or the governance as you may be caught.

774
00:38:23,615 --> 00:38:26,975
I mean, I, it's an interesting theory. I just, I don't know, you know,

775
00:38:26,975 --> 00:38:31,654
so many people have built some error correction on the scale of

776
00:38:31,894 --> 00:38:33,615
Bitcoin Core, then it will,

777
00:38:33,695 --> 00:38:36,815
it'll be a black Swan where it will look stable for a while.

778
00:38:37,534 --> 00:38:40,374
It will be stable for a long while, and then there'll be a huge revolution.

779
00:38:41,095 --> 00:38:43,215
So you can't fight reality forever.

780
00:38:43,615 --> 00:38:46,495
There are a couple of things that maybe you could like the alphabet or the

781
00:38:47,495 --> 00:38:50,615
argue with big cash. Like it's their time will come

782
00:38:51,174 --> 00:38:54,654
to some extent. The big bloggers were right about a lot of things.

783
00:38:54,654 --> 00:38:58,735
So I'm much too smart to fall for the trap of just saying one side good,

784
00:38:58,735 --> 00:39:03,294
one side bad. Each of the two sides had some points that were good.

785
00:39:03,575 --> 00:39:06,495
Some points that were basically irrelevant or pointless distractions.

786
00:39:06,894 --> 00:39:08,414
And then they had some points that were terrible.

787
00:39:08,774 --> 00:39:13,774
And most people they have a crippling fear of being rejected by the,

788
00:39:14,215 --> 00:39:17,735
so they just tribe up and they joined the small blog, in this case,

789
00:39:17,735 --> 00:39:21,095
that small blocker tribe, but I'm already very, very, very,

790
00:39:21,095 --> 00:39:25,414
very popular and I have many friends. So when I come to the Bitcoin world,

791
00:39:25,414 --> 00:39:29,134
I don't need any more friends. And I just tell the truth out of my brain.

792
00:39:29,735 --> 00:39:33,335
And the truth is this, that the large blockers had many points that were good.

793
00:39:33,714 --> 00:39:43,074
Not enough to justify their horrible idea, which was the horrible idea, which was self-contradictory in many ways, because they said, well, we're going to uncap the L1 block size.

794
00:39:43,074 --> 00:39:46,554
But then you had Gavin Andreessen saying, nobody wants an uncapped L1 block size.

795
00:39:46,554 --> 00:39:49,954
And he said, oh, we'll make it eight megabytes with Bitcoin XT.

796
00:39:49,954 --> 00:39:52,114
And I said, we'll make it two megabytes with Bitcoin Classic.

797
00:39:52,114 --> 00:39:53,074
And then I said, blah, blah, blah.

798
00:39:53,273 --> 00:39:54,954
So they kind of didn't really know what they were doing.

799
00:39:55,353 --> 00:39:58,034
And they had a terrible plan and they had a terrible execution.

800
00:39:58,194 --> 00:40:04,114
And there's no reason to do large blocks on L1 if a bunch of people hate that idea, because you could faithfully do them on L2.

801
00:40:04,114 --> 00:40:05,353
So blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

802
00:40:05,353 --> 00:40:10,993
Sorry. But despite all that, the large blockers had many ideas that were good.

803
00:40:11,313 --> 00:40:21,153
And one of them was, we have to get, you know, eventually it has to be possible for people to be buying coffee on somewhere in the Bitcoin stack the world over.

804
00:40:21,153 --> 00:40:22,394
Were they, you know, four billion?

805
00:40:22,434 --> 00:40:23,754
I got it. I'd have to push back.

806
00:40:23,754 --> 00:40:26,874
If people aren't using the chain, then it's cheap to use the chain for coffee.

807
00:40:29,034 --> 00:40:32,234
I don't know how that's a pushback against what I'm saying.

808
00:40:33,833 --> 00:40:37,913
OK, if the fees are, you know, if people think that the fees are too high.

809
00:40:39,114 --> 00:40:43,993
The fees, I don't understand why people, I feel like I've elaborated this point many times in my head.

810
00:40:44,273 --> 00:40:47,874
The fees are stuck at 10 cents per transaction.

811
00:40:47,913 --> 00:40:54,114
Now, you understand there's a difference between gallons on chain right now, the difference between miles and miles per gallon in your car.

812
00:40:54,353 --> 00:40:55,474
But you could buy coffee.

813
00:40:58,434 --> 00:40:59,794
And one is miles per gallon.

814
00:41:00,154 --> 00:41:08,394
The the whole network needs to be able to support people, need to believe that it is a network that would eventually support everyone using it.

815
00:41:08,874 --> 00:41:16,313
With stuff is like the, you know, the unit of account is BTC, let alone the medium of exchange store value, which is which are slightly easier.

816
00:41:16,993 --> 00:41:21,913
So if it's constrained as a medium of exchange, then people know it has no future.

817
00:41:22,313 --> 00:41:23,353
They preemptively know.

818
00:41:24,353 --> 00:41:35,913
So you're saying that because in the future, everyone, everybody knows that if we all go buy coffee today, it's going to get too expensive to buy coffee tomorrow, which is why we rather just not buy coffee today.

819
00:41:37,993 --> 00:41:38,993
Basically, yes.

820
00:41:39,313 --> 00:41:41,353
But people don't co-generate it that way.

821
00:41:41,394 --> 00:41:43,794
I don't I don't I don't believe that.

822
00:41:43,833 --> 00:41:44,833
I don't believe that.

823
00:41:45,514 --> 00:41:47,553
I think that. But I think most people don't believe that.

824
00:41:48,273 --> 00:41:51,514
Can I just say, I appreciate the sequence of thoughts.

825
00:41:52,473 --> 00:41:54,794
I just going to say that you don't have this.

826
00:41:55,074 --> 00:41:58,273
That's not they don't have this logical sequence of thoughts laid out like that.

827
00:41:58,473 --> 00:42:02,074
What normal people do is they do trial and error and then they adjust.

828
00:42:02,314 --> 00:42:14,553
And so a lot of people would get curious about Bitcoin and they would hear and we miss these huge adoption super cycles, which we've had like four or five or six where the price of Bitcoin is going up and up and up.

829
00:42:14,553 --> 00:42:15,954
And everyone's talking about us.

830
00:42:16,314 --> 00:42:19,234
And at that point, the fees become very high.

831
00:42:19,514 --> 00:42:22,034
It costs 10, 20 dollars to spend someone's BTC.

832
00:42:22,273 --> 00:42:26,714
And then people think, you know what, this thing doesn't really seem like it's totally figured out right now.

833
00:42:26,714 --> 00:42:30,514
So I'm just going to leave and I'm going to come back later when maybe they figure it out.

834
00:42:30,833 --> 00:42:34,314
And then when all those people leave, then everyone thinks, oh, that was weird.

835
00:42:34,314 --> 00:42:39,314
There was like a week, like two or three weeks ago, there was this day where everyone was talking about Bitcoin, but now they're not.

836
00:42:39,314 --> 00:42:40,794
And so I'm not going to talk about it either.

837
00:42:40,794 --> 00:42:43,674
So people are very social and all these thoughts are very contagious.

838
00:42:43,674 --> 00:42:54,674
So it's not that each individual person has like reasoned it out like Aristotle and they're saying, ah, therefore, and such and such, but they try it out and they say, you know what, this thing really hasn't been all figured out yet.

839
00:42:54,874 --> 00:42:55,993
And they are aware of that.

840
00:42:55,993 --> 00:42:59,714
And that fundamentally is because of large block related.

841
00:42:59,714 --> 00:43:03,273
But hold on, there's three events in Bitcoin's history when fees went up three.

842
00:43:03,874 --> 00:43:09,954
The first one was in 2017 when and and pool and my BTC, but hold on.

843
00:43:09,954 --> 00:43:17,193
But but since then, since the and pool and my BTC were mining empty blocks, they were mining empty blocks and Roger was spamming the chain.

844
00:43:17,473 --> 00:43:18,874
So the fees went up a lot.

845
00:43:19,154 --> 00:43:20,074
So you would think.

846
00:43:20,954 --> 00:43:21,553
Doesn't matter.

847
00:43:22,514 --> 00:43:27,074
So it doesn't matter if it's only the quantity of three doesn't make any difference.

848
00:43:27,193 --> 00:43:28,674
The point is, it would happen again.

849
00:43:29,154 --> 00:43:30,353
So there's been two.

850
00:43:30,353 --> 00:43:33,874
Oh, there was a huge adoption super cycle in BTC.

851
00:43:34,074 --> 00:43:35,234
It would happen again.

852
00:43:35,794 --> 00:43:41,753
So that's the issue is that there's no way this is this is so I just don't buy the entire argument.

853
00:43:41,753 --> 00:43:43,314
And it's not one that just you've made.

854
00:43:43,594 --> 00:43:46,113
People are upset that the medium of exchange is not here.

855
00:43:46,113 --> 00:43:47,794
We hear this all the time.

856
00:43:48,113 --> 00:43:50,793
And it has nothing to do with the time here now.

857
00:43:50,793 --> 00:43:52,434
It's that there's no way of attaining it.

858
00:43:52,474 --> 00:43:56,034
But I think there's several things we can do without forking Bitcoin.

859
00:43:56,034 --> 00:44:01,393
Some of these proposals are very good and open up things in orders of magnitude that would probably be fine.

860
00:44:01,673 --> 00:44:05,073
But now the technical possibility is not the issue either.

861
00:44:05,393 --> 00:44:11,354
For example, BIP300, my idea, you could do that on Bitcoin today without changing any lines.

862
00:44:11,354 --> 00:44:15,194
I realize I realize your proposal is one of many routes to that.

863
00:44:15,194 --> 00:44:17,233
But I'm saying that's not the issue.

864
00:44:17,233 --> 00:44:19,513
The issue is the social, the social.

865
00:44:19,513 --> 00:44:20,914
But what is the real social?

866
00:44:21,034 --> 00:44:26,553
That has nothing to do with Bitcoin, has nothing to do with Bitcoin Core or even really Bitcoin at any technical level.

867
00:44:26,553 --> 00:44:27,833
It's a social thing.

868
00:44:27,833 --> 00:44:29,434
It doesn't really matter what the source is.

869
00:44:29,434 --> 00:44:30,513
We can't we're trapped here.

870
00:44:30,513 --> 00:44:34,513
That's why that's why now it's everybody else.

871
00:44:34,714 --> 00:44:35,914
Are we playing Bitcoin Core?

872
00:44:35,914 --> 00:44:40,673
Are we playing people that are the social layer of Bitcoin Core?

873
00:44:40,673 --> 00:44:50,793
But it's not that it isn't that it comes down to this medium of exchange is going to follow the same pathway, maybe an magnitude or two.

874
00:44:50,793 --> 00:44:52,993
Faster than gold, it'll follow the same one as gold.

875
00:44:53,233 --> 00:44:59,354
It took gold, you know, just a measly 5000 years from discovery to the point where it was used as a degree.

876
00:44:59,354 --> 00:45:01,754
That timeline of gold has any relevance to.

877
00:45:01,754 --> 00:45:02,393
No, it doesn't.

878
00:45:02,393 --> 00:45:02,953
No, it isn't.

879
00:45:02,953 --> 00:45:03,553
Obviously.

880
00:45:03,553 --> 00:45:04,953
Wait, let me give you the caveat.

881
00:45:04,953 --> 00:45:11,474
Obviously, we're not in the age of, you know, having a horse circulate the message that, yeah, everyone there's this thing gold.

882
00:45:11,754 --> 00:45:13,874
So I would expect it to be faster.

883
00:45:13,874 --> 00:45:14,154
Yes.

884
00:45:14,154 --> 00:45:15,233
Or even having cars.

885
00:45:15,233 --> 00:45:18,233
Why the adoption of cars versus the adoption of horses?

886
00:45:18,233 --> 00:45:19,034
There's no reason.

887
00:45:19,034 --> 00:45:19,833
I understand.

888
00:45:19,833 --> 00:45:20,434
I understand.

889
00:45:20,434 --> 00:45:24,434
But we are 16 years in 16 years.

890
00:45:24,714 --> 00:45:44,594
And if anyone was on any sort of drug that made them feel as if they were going to flip the entire monetary system, not just from the advent of the technology that would do it, but to its broad, widespread adoption, where over 50 percent of all humans transact everything in their daily lives with it in 15 years.

891
00:45:45,553 --> 00:45:49,993
They mean, A, I want to know who they're buying their drugs from, because that's probably some good shit.

892
00:45:50,354 --> 00:45:54,434
And B, it might take literally five times that long.

893
00:45:54,434 --> 00:45:55,073
It could.

894
00:45:55,073 --> 00:45:55,833
I don't think it will.

895
00:45:55,833 --> 00:45:56,793
I think it's maybe on the order.

896
00:45:56,793 --> 00:45:57,953
We agree with you.

897
00:45:57,953 --> 00:46:04,673
I completely agree with you that the project of replacing fiat with a cryptocurrency.

898
00:46:05,833 --> 00:46:10,634
We'll take we should take longer than 15 years, so that's not happening.

899
00:46:10,673 --> 00:46:11,553
I don't think that's me.

900
00:46:12,314 --> 00:46:17,034
I think you're saying that the you don't know all the steps it will take to get there.

901
00:46:17,034 --> 00:46:27,354
Maybe it's an essential step that the the first currency experiences a lot of success, but becomes overconfident and then waste 10 years because we wasted 10 of the 16 years.

902
00:46:27,354 --> 00:46:27,754
Really?

903
00:46:28,073 --> 00:46:36,513
The 2009 through 2014 were way more productive than, you know, 2016 to 2026.

904
00:46:36,513 --> 00:46:38,793
I think it mostly been static.

905
00:46:39,314 --> 00:46:40,113
I don't think you're hearing me, though.

906
00:46:40,113 --> 00:46:41,634
I don't think it's anything to do with Bitcoin.

907
00:46:41,634 --> 00:46:43,314
I think it's everything external to Bitcoin.

908
00:46:43,474 --> 00:46:46,434
I think I think the hardest things that have to happen to get widespread.

909
00:46:46,434 --> 00:46:47,034
No, I hear you.

910
00:46:47,034 --> 00:46:48,073
There I can.

911
00:46:48,073 --> 00:46:51,314
We need to see the US dollar collapse there.

912
00:46:51,354 --> 00:46:51,993
I'll throw that out.

913
00:46:52,233 --> 00:46:53,874
I think that's the most probable step.

914
00:46:54,154 --> 00:46:55,034
So I don't know.

915
00:46:55,034 --> 00:47:01,154
Can you tell me how Bitcoin Core will will take in a PR or software that makes the US dollar collapse?

916
00:47:01,154 --> 00:47:01,673
Can you do that?

917
00:47:01,673 --> 00:47:03,673
Okay, well, of course, I could.

918
00:47:03,993 --> 00:47:09,553
I don't think I have to say I can't write a lot of code in Bitcoin and see had Vlad and PC.

919
00:47:09,553 --> 00:47:16,034
They had their hand up politely for we have to reward this politeness, I think, because they've been politely for like literally like 15 minutes or something.

920
00:47:16,034 --> 00:47:17,793
So I just have to throw that out there.

921
00:47:20,073 --> 00:47:34,273
Well, you know, I mean, I was just allowing the very passionate conversation to come to a pause there, but sure, I was going to jump up and and, you know, bring up this sort of marketing issue that your fork has.

922
00:47:34,474 --> 00:47:42,914
I mean, I'm pretty stoked on on cash you and these other implementations of eCash.

923
00:47:42,914 --> 00:47:48,393
I find the use of the term eCash for your fork very confusing, when clearly it should be called P-cash.

924
00:47:48,393 --> 00:47:56,993
But, you know, I'll put that aside because I think actually the conversation you guys are having about this medium of exchange thing, it's one of these really busted narratives.

925
00:47:56,993 --> 00:47:58,073
It's a bad meme.

926
00:47:58,474 --> 00:48:12,914
The whole meme about money having these different form factors as if it were water and it's going from ice to liquid to a gas, the money has to go from, you know, store value to medium of account to unit of exchange.

927
00:48:13,073 --> 00:48:15,633
It's a really, really broken meme.

928
00:48:15,873 --> 00:48:19,513
And it really gets lame when we start applying it to the real world.

929
00:48:19,794 --> 00:48:32,554
And when it gets when it gets applied to Bitcoin, it's particularly bad because you cannot separate medium of exchange and store value with Bitcoin every single time anybody receives or sends Bitcoin.

930
00:48:32,554 --> 00:48:33,794
It's a medium of exchange.

931
00:48:33,953 --> 00:48:41,313
I just had Bitcoin sent to me the other day from another continent, and it was an excellent medium of exchange.

932
00:48:41,474 --> 00:48:44,474
It's kind of like trying to separate trains and train tracks.

933
00:48:44,794 --> 00:48:50,474
It's just like a weird way in which it gets discussed and everyone's saying, oh, big problem.

934
00:48:50,633 --> 00:48:55,994
How the hell is it going to become a medium of exchange when it's like literally been one since inception?

935
00:48:56,273 --> 00:48:58,193
I just think it's frustrating.

936
00:48:59,193 --> 00:49:02,594
It has not been used by eight billion people since inception.

937
00:49:02,594 --> 00:49:03,513
So that's what we're talking about.

938
00:49:03,513 --> 00:49:04,914
That's a totally different topic.

939
00:49:04,914 --> 00:49:07,034
And that's not about whether it's a medium of exchange.

940
00:49:07,034 --> 00:49:07,914
Let me give you an example.

941
00:49:07,914 --> 00:49:10,433
TC, the Wright brothers flew a plane, right?

942
00:49:10,674 --> 00:49:12,073
Technically, that was a plane.

943
00:49:12,433 --> 00:49:13,714
Technically, it had a flight.

944
00:49:14,193 --> 00:49:15,753
Technically, it was in the air, right?

945
00:49:15,753 --> 00:49:17,273
All those things were box checked.

946
00:49:17,354 --> 00:49:19,073
Technically, well, plane, we got it.

947
00:49:19,474 --> 00:49:25,193
But, you know, it wasn't consumer air travel for quite some time that, you know, displaced a lot of other forms.

948
00:49:25,193 --> 00:49:26,114
And that's all we're talking about.

949
00:49:26,114 --> 00:49:30,273
You're right in the sense of like it is technically doing an exchange.

950
00:49:30,273 --> 00:49:34,354
Every peer to peer exchange on L1 is medium of exchange for many things.

951
00:49:34,354 --> 00:49:37,633
But when does it displace the majority?

952
00:49:37,633 --> 00:49:42,433
But Daniel, Daniel, the reason of me bringing that up is not just to nitpick.

953
00:49:42,714 --> 00:49:55,034
It's the fact that that meme of saying that it's these different phases and it's not there yet is being used to market forks to people and convince people that something drastic needs to change.

954
00:49:55,433 --> 00:49:57,873
When I agree, I agree with what you said, Daniel.

955
00:49:57,873 --> 00:50:03,193
I think it is actually multiple generations until you see a total widespread adoption of Bitcoin.

956
00:50:03,193 --> 00:50:04,674
And I'm totally fine with that.

957
00:50:04,674 --> 00:50:07,714
I'm at peace with the fact that I might not see it in my lifetime.

958
00:50:07,753 --> 00:50:08,474
That's OK.

959
00:50:08,753 --> 00:50:15,393
But even if that doesn't happen for Bitcoin to survive, all it really takes is just somebody to want it.

960
00:50:16,354 --> 00:50:22,154
And if somebody wants it, as long as they're taking it into self-custody and there's a transaction fee that's getting paid.

961
00:50:22,154 --> 00:50:31,714
So the reason for that transaction, if it was because of a store of value or if it was because someone's going to go and put it on exchange to buy JPEGs doesn't really matter.

962
00:50:31,714 --> 00:50:37,794
As long as that there's a fee that's being paid, that's in the end of the day for the network.

963
00:50:37,833 --> 00:50:38,794
That's all that matters.

964
00:50:38,794 --> 00:50:43,073
It doesn't care if you're using it as a store of value or using it as a medium exchange or a unit of account.

965
00:50:43,354 --> 00:50:47,674
All that matters is that there's big there's demand for Bitcoin and people are taking it into self-custody.

966
00:50:48,674 --> 00:51:02,674
Now, it matters very much how many people use Bitcoin, because if there is a parallel system that is similar enough, but more popular, then it will be very, very hard for Bitcoin to have a future, let alone survive.

967
00:51:03,313 --> 00:51:11,193
It will it will just be so you can imagine like if you had something where like Litecoin was used by eight billion people somehow.

968
00:51:12,193 --> 00:51:14,154
Well, I think and Bitcoin is what it is right now.

969
00:51:14,154 --> 00:51:15,594
I don't think we disagree. I don't think we agree.

970
00:51:15,953 --> 00:51:18,753
I think something has more demand than Bitcoin.

971
00:51:18,794 --> 00:51:20,354
Yeah, you're 100% right.

972
00:51:20,354 --> 00:51:23,594
We've seen millions of attempts, haven't we?

973
00:51:24,354 --> 00:51:27,073
Haven't we seen millions of attempts to do just that?

974
00:51:27,953 --> 00:51:35,433
I mean, your your line of reasoning, because the fees should have killed when their fees were high and it made a really bad experience for Bitcoin.

975
00:51:35,433 --> 00:51:36,193
Bitcoin should have died.

976
00:51:36,193 --> 00:51:41,234
Right. The fees disqualify the eight billion people event.

977
00:51:41,513 --> 00:51:51,953
No, no, no, no. I'm talking about you specifically said when people come onto the chain to pay for coffee and then they can't because the fees went up and it happened in three times in Bitcoin's history.

978
00:51:52,273 --> 00:51:56,154
You would think today there wouldn't be a Bitcoin already, like it would be done.

979
00:51:56,633 --> 00:52:04,714
Well, yeah, yeah, I don't I think everyone, well, everyone, maybe except Paul, agrees that that's not really what's holding back adoption.

980
00:52:04,714 --> 00:52:06,474
I asked he said Bitcoin Core.

981
00:52:06,474 --> 00:52:08,313
There's a lot of problems there that are holding back adoption.

982
00:52:08,674 --> 00:52:10,154
I don't agree at all.

983
00:52:10,154 --> 00:52:11,873
I think the problems are two things.

984
00:52:11,873 --> 00:52:19,833
Biggest ones is we need to see some of the collapse in the fiat monetary system that we've been long awaiting based on the fucking blank checks they're writing.

985
00:52:20,193 --> 00:52:23,234
And then number two, things like capital gains tax treatment.

986
00:52:23,354 --> 00:52:26,433
So what I want to know, Paul, is what can Bitcoin Core developers do?

987
00:52:26,433 --> 00:52:27,714
Let's say the remaining core developers.

988
00:52:27,714 --> 00:52:35,873
What line of code can they write to exempt it from tax, from cap gains and to make the US dollar system collapse?

989
00:52:35,873 --> 00:52:37,794
Like what line of what does that C code look like?

990
00:52:37,794 --> 00:52:41,873
Is it a statement? And then it goes and assassinates politicians in the code.

991
00:52:42,114 --> 00:52:46,393
How does it work? Because I think that's actually what's what's actually holding Bitcoin back.

992
00:52:46,753 --> 00:52:47,433
That's that's it.

993
00:52:48,393 --> 00:52:49,674
But first of all, there is an answer.

994
00:52:49,674 --> 00:52:52,633
If you if there was more privacy in Bitcoin, it would de facto.

995
00:52:54,393 --> 00:52:59,633
Limit the. Enforcement of the capital gains taxation.

996
00:52:59,633 --> 00:53:10,073
So is it possible like there's only really two vectors for adoption, one is number go up, we always get more moths to the fire when we're in a bull market.

997
00:53:10,193 --> 00:53:12,073
OK, and the other one is pain.

998
00:53:12,474 --> 00:53:22,073
So we saw even recently, you know, if you believe the reports that Iran was, you know, taking Bitcoin for safe passage through the straits or something like that.

999
00:53:22,073 --> 00:53:29,313
You know, people, countries, companies, entities, they they come across Bitcoin as a solution when they encounter enough friction or problem.

1000
00:53:29,714 --> 00:53:34,114
You know, the truckers in Canada were using it when they didn't have other options.

1001
00:53:34,114 --> 00:53:50,594
So it's basically you get pain out in the real world that forces you to look for a solution that Bitcoin offers, you know, possible, you know, aspects to to solve the problem or you get number go up, which always draws more moths to the fire.

1002
00:53:50,794 --> 00:53:54,114
Like, basically, those are the two vectors of adoption, truly.

1003
00:53:54,313 --> 00:54:03,953
And whatever activity all of these participants, including you, Paul and me, like any what anybody does is not necessarily consequential at all.

1004
00:54:04,433 --> 00:54:17,273
Compared to those other two things, so we can spin our wheels, we can do a whole bunch of activity, but we're not we're not necessarily impacting something that has to basically happen organically through those other vectors.

1005
00:54:18,193 --> 00:54:26,953
Yeah, I mean, it all comes down to the social it all comes down to the social the social aspect of when I talk to people, lay people that have literally they've heard of Bitcoin.

1006
00:54:27,193 --> 00:54:30,234
They don't know deeply the technicals, but they kind of understand the basics.

1007
00:54:30,273 --> 00:54:32,833
Oh, there's not going to be any more printed over a certain number.

1008
00:54:33,073 --> 00:54:35,794
So it's different than cash because, you know, cash.

1009
00:54:36,034 --> 00:54:37,313
I hope that is right.

1010
00:54:37,554 --> 00:54:40,594
The person just says where nothing that we do matters.

1011
00:54:40,594 --> 00:54:42,674
And Bitcoin success is guaranteed.

1012
00:54:42,873 --> 00:54:43,313
No, it's not.

1013
00:54:44,594 --> 00:54:47,073
Let me clarify. It's not up to any one person.

1014
00:54:47,794 --> 00:54:50,833
It's the total collaborative impact of everything.

1015
00:54:50,994 --> 00:54:53,714
But the main two vectors are still always the same.

1016
00:54:53,714 --> 00:55:03,674
It's either number go up, attracting new investors and speculators, or it's the pain out in the world where you need this permissionless, sovereign money to overcome.

1017
00:55:04,114 --> 00:55:06,753
You see, I know that isn't that what we're talking about, though.

1018
00:55:06,753 --> 00:55:07,633
We're talking about that.

1019
00:55:07,633 --> 00:55:11,073
That's partly what we're talking about when we talk about these different layer twos.

1020
00:55:11,073 --> 00:55:18,154
But that's not what that's that's going to a level that the average person, the ninety five percent of people, right, like who don't hold Bitcoin.

1021
00:55:18,354 --> 00:55:19,714
A lot of them know what Bitcoin is.

1022
00:55:19,714 --> 00:55:21,794
When I talk to them, they say, I know what Bitcoin is.

1023
00:55:22,114 --> 00:55:22,674
Yeah, I don't know.

1024
00:55:24,114 --> 00:55:25,633
It's really volatile.

1025
00:55:25,633 --> 00:55:27,393
I don't know if I can buy into that.

1026
00:55:27,594 --> 00:55:29,474
I just trust the government, man.

1027
00:55:29,474 --> 00:55:32,073
Like they will literally tell you this, especially people on the left.

1028
00:55:32,114 --> 00:55:34,234
Oh, man, I trust the fiat monetary system.

1029
00:55:34,474 --> 00:55:35,873
Oh, the stable dollar.

1030
00:55:35,873 --> 00:55:42,433
Oh, nothing like, you know, El Salvador, not El Salvador, but like Venezuela or something will ever happen to us.

1031
00:55:42,674 --> 00:55:45,114
We're white people in white people countries.

1032
00:55:45,114 --> 00:55:46,433
That just doesn't happen here.

1033
00:55:46,794 --> 00:55:51,953
What they need to have shaken to their fucking core is for the system to collapse.

1034
00:55:51,953 --> 00:55:54,034
And it goes into the second thing that T.C. said.

1035
00:55:54,354 --> 00:55:56,674
It goes into the fact that they need pain.

1036
00:55:56,914 --> 00:55:58,794
It's the exact same shit that's happening with A.I.

1037
00:55:58,794 --> 00:56:03,034
Dude, I've worked on these identity solutions forever and they're all great solutions.

1038
00:56:03,034 --> 00:56:06,714
And there's awesome stuff that can solve things in our world, make everything more efficient.

1039
00:56:07,073 --> 00:56:11,873
But the sad part is for 10 years, we try to sell people as incremental improvements or cost reductions.

1040
00:56:11,873 --> 00:56:12,513
No one cared.

1041
00:56:12,714 --> 00:56:15,714
A.I. came along and fucking destroyed trust on the Internet.

1042
00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:17,193
And now, you know what people are doing?

1043
00:56:17,393 --> 00:56:20,953
Running around with their fucking heads cut off, being like, how do I authenticate A.I.

1044
00:56:20,953 --> 00:56:21,794
agents all this shit?

1045
00:56:21,994 --> 00:56:24,794
And they're the exact same tech we built for last 10 years.

1046
00:56:24,794 --> 00:56:25,953
They're like, give that to me.

1047
00:56:26,114 --> 00:56:26,953
What did it take?

1048
00:56:27,154 --> 00:56:29,714
Extreme pain, extreme pain.

1049
00:56:29,953 --> 00:56:30,474
I agree.

1050
00:56:30,474 --> 00:56:32,154
Pain is pain is a very good teacher.

1051
00:56:32,354 --> 00:56:35,114
And it's very nothing you do.

1052
00:56:35,114 --> 00:56:39,953
No forks of Bitcoin can deliver the extreme pain that is necessary.

1053
00:56:40,193 --> 00:56:44,033
I hope for the total and systemic collapse of the dollar.

1054
00:56:44,474 --> 00:56:46,474
You can't give us a nice airdrop, man.

1055
00:56:46,474 --> 00:56:48,833
I don't know why we're against him giving us a nice airdrop.

1056
00:56:49,033 --> 00:56:57,793
It doesn't matter about the collapse of fiat doesn't necessarily mean that BTC will succeed, because it could be a different cryptocurrency that succeeds.

1057
00:56:57,793 --> 00:57:03,673
It could be a completely different one other than not having nothing to do with ECX or BTC.

1058
00:57:03,673 --> 00:57:05,153
That's not true.

1059
00:57:05,153 --> 00:57:05,874
True, true.

1060
00:57:05,874 --> 00:57:11,313
But what I'm saying, but if we had 8 billion users, then it really could not be anything.

1061
00:57:11,313 --> 00:57:17,394
The true line here, my point is what TC said is important because he said there's two things that drive it, right?

1062
00:57:17,394 --> 00:57:18,153
Number go up.

1063
00:57:18,153 --> 00:57:23,073
And then the other one being like, you know, you have a need, whether it's pain or something else extreme.

1064
00:57:23,394 --> 00:57:31,193
I think we've kind of exhausted, not fully, but like to a large degree, the first cohort of people that attached to his first thing, which is number go up.

1065
00:57:31,474 --> 00:57:39,313
Everyone who kind of cares about that and says, oh, this is like a kind of speculative black swan collapse asset and is deep into the economics and all that stuff.

1066
00:57:39,313 --> 00:57:43,953
They kind of already know about Bitcoin and have either bought or they're like have a really nuanced position on it.

1067
00:57:44,274 --> 00:57:48,274
Now we're working on the other ninety five percent of humanity.

1068
00:57:48,514 --> 00:57:56,153
And when I talk to them, especially in these first world countries, euro, you know, USD, they look at the government and they say, I trust that it's just so stable.

1069
00:57:56,153 --> 00:57:56,673
Oh, my God.

1070
00:57:56,673 --> 00:57:57,433
Weird internet money.

1071
00:57:57,433 --> 00:58:06,033
They still look at it that way because they have a trust in the structure until that structure is assaulted and fucks them over royally.

1072
00:58:06,274 --> 00:58:08,193
They are not going to get off their ass.

1073
00:58:08,394 --> 00:58:16,313
And so I think what what what shit coin, what feature do you think the market wants that you think Drivechain like provide?

1074
00:58:16,313 --> 00:58:16,953
Like what's that?

1075
00:58:16,953 --> 00:58:17,793
How does it collapse?

1076
00:58:17,793 --> 00:58:18,913
The US dollar is missing.

1077
00:58:18,913 --> 00:58:19,313
Who does it?

1078
00:58:19,313 --> 00:58:20,153
Who does it assassinate?

1079
00:58:20,153 --> 00:58:21,793
Does it like shoot bullets out of the blockchain?

1080
00:58:21,793 --> 00:58:22,793
I'm just trying to understand.

1081
00:58:22,793 --> 00:58:29,274
The only the only reason I ask you, I would before I might have said maybe like shielded transactions from Zcash, but no one gives a fuck about Zcash.

1082
00:58:29,474 --> 00:58:32,394
Maybe Monero, but no one gives a fuck about Monero.

1083
00:58:32,433 --> 00:58:39,394
So the privacy part, people really don't know that you guys are right, that no one actually wants this, any of this watching stuff.

1084
00:58:39,913 --> 00:58:40,913
I don't think that's true.

1085
00:58:41,553 --> 00:58:45,953
So but the idea is that you want to build something that people are going to want.

1086
00:58:45,953 --> 00:58:52,033
But I mean, that that makes you know, you could have made that argument maybe 10 years ago when shit coins were still kind of popular.

1087
00:58:52,033 --> 00:58:53,433
People were looking for the next thing.

1088
00:58:53,634 --> 00:58:55,874
But today, I mean, no one cares.

1089
00:58:57,234 --> 00:59:00,234
I think they don't care because we've done such a terrible job.

1090
00:59:00,474 --> 00:59:04,594
No, they don't care because they don't trust the US dollar.

1091
00:59:04,594 --> 00:59:05,153
They trust it.

1092
00:59:05,354 --> 00:59:10,234
They need they need to be put in the frying pan and fucking boil the line.

1093
00:59:11,234 --> 00:59:14,114
No one brought out any technology.

1094
00:59:16,714 --> 00:59:29,754
I'm trying to see what which shit coin what what old coin any of that doesn't matter what, like actually the market wants like something that has sustaining power that we know that Bitcoin is missing this one thing.

1095
00:59:30,234 --> 00:59:31,234
I mean, I don't know.

1096
00:59:30,567 --> 00:59:35,207
Okay, well, it's hard to explain it all like that. But yeah, okay. Monero is something that is adoption

1097
00:59:35,367 --> 00:59:39,447
I prefer this we have his version of z as a sidechain. I prefer this

1098
00:59:40,807 --> 00:59:44,487
Monero has been going down in bitcoin terms for the last like 12 years

1099
00:59:45,127 --> 00:59:52,907
But that's not relevant the we're talking about actual people transacting with it. So we've had like the darknet markets where the original

1100
00:59:54,087 --> 00:59:56,087
use case for bitcoin transactions

1101
00:59:56,407 --> 01:00:00,647
And now all these places that used to be bitcoin only they're now like all monero

1102
01:00:00,806 --> 01:00:04,647
what matters is I understand you're on you're really on about these transactions, but

1103
01:00:05,366 --> 01:00:09,287
At the end of the day, it's the demand that matters and bitcoin's getting the demand. That is the demand

1104
01:00:10,166 --> 01:00:12,327
the transaction demand the transaction demand

1105
01:00:13,846 --> 01:00:16,647
For the next for another 100 years that could take care of that

1106
01:00:18,487 --> 01:00:22,647
No, i'm not talking about the transaction fees i'm talking about the users the actual usage

1107
01:00:23,206 --> 01:00:28,087
You said what's this thing that people want so much so who's trained so like one example

1108
01:00:28,166 --> 01:00:33,046
You're saying moneros has a lot of transactions, but like why do I care people are transacting today?

1109
01:00:33,046 --> 01:00:34,087
Like what does that do for me?

1110
01:00:34,087 --> 01:00:40,166
Like why do I why should I care about the one who said you you specifically asked what's name and altcoin where?

1111
01:00:40,727 --> 01:00:46,007
That people actually use how much transactions are are they doing on monero?

1112
01:00:47,287 --> 01:00:49,766
You can look it up. It doesn't matter the point the fact that the

1113
01:00:50,727 --> 01:00:52,727
The exchange

1114
01:00:55,446 --> 01:01:00,806
And then you can look at crypto fees.info you can look at crypto fees.info and they'll give you exact numbers

1115
01:01:01,047 --> 01:01:02,247
Would it make it better for you?

1116
01:01:02,247 --> 01:01:07,846
If I started like creating a bunch of transactions like dummy transactions on chain to make it look like there's a lot of like

1117
01:01:07,846 --> 01:01:09,846
Uses happening

1118
01:01:13,766 --> 01:01:15,766
If you paid a real transaction fee

1119
01:01:16,327 --> 01:01:19,766
It would you would be a real user so that would make me feel slightly better

1120
01:01:21,126 --> 01:01:27,446
A minor would benefit would benefit more right now from me buying a fuck ton of bitcoin and raising the value of bitcoin

1121
01:01:27,446 --> 01:01:29,446
than paying like a small

1122
01:01:30,647 --> 01:01:33,367
Lots and lots and lots of completely different things

1123
01:01:33,446 --> 01:01:38,646
Okay, the fact that bitcoin will also be killed by a security budget has nothing to do with the fact that it also

1124
01:01:39,127 --> 01:01:41,446
Let's talk about security budget. Let's okay. Let's I like this

1125
01:01:43,207 --> 01:01:45,207
Paul you got a lot of

1126
01:01:46,247 --> 01:01:51,926
How does a security budget so like you know, I think right now the security budget for like a long time

1127
01:01:52,086 --> 01:01:55,446
So I think we should move on with you and I don't think we did

1128
01:01:55,526 --> 01:01:59,366
I think a lot of people try to make it seem like there's a security budget that we have to worry about

1129
01:01:59,446 --> 01:02:02,646
But I don't think anyone really articulated how bitcoin dies

1130
01:02:02,886 --> 01:02:06,726
Like what is the budget that keeps bitcoin secure? Like no one has that number. No one told me

1131
01:02:07,607 --> 01:02:10,166
Let's say it's four cents a year that we pay the miners

1132
01:02:10,646 --> 01:02:12,247
It

1133
01:02:12,247 --> 01:02:16,567
What then at that point the proof of work is just superfluous. It's a waste of time

1134
01:02:18,726 --> 01:02:22,086
It's a transaction that I did two hundred thousand blocks ago

1135
01:02:22,726 --> 01:02:28,487
Have anything to do with like being less secure if there's um, you know, because you can easily rewrite the chain

1136
01:02:29,047 --> 01:02:31,767
How can you rewrite the chain that's already has it has all that work?

1137
01:02:33,607 --> 01:02:35,607
I'm talking about it from now on is

1138
01:02:36,086 --> 01:02:38,886
The total amount of money paid to miners over the whole year

1139
01:02:39,767 --> 01:02:45,366
Is four cents for the whole year. So it's like one millionth of a cent per block. So you think pools are

1140
01:02:46,886 --> 01:02:49,687
You think pools are going to go to their miners and be like listen guys

1141
01:02:50,006 --> 01:02:54,806
Why are you like dancing around the issue? I'm just taking an extreme case to make it clear, right?

1142
01:02:54,967 --> 01:02:57,286
I'm telling you that theoretical level make any sense

1143
01:02:57,847 --> 01:03:01,207
at some theoretical level it does matter if the

1144
01:03:01,847 --> 01:03:05,627
Total amount of money paid to miners is like one dollar. Do you acknowledge?

1145
01:03:09,366 --> 01:03:13,047
I agree with you. There's more incentives. There's the income

1146
01:03:13,767 --> 01:03:15,607
and profit

1147
01:03:15,607 --> 01:03:19,067
And in fact over time those other incentives grow in importance

1148
01:03:21,207 --> 01:03:23,207
I mean

1149
01:03:24,086 --> 01:03:25,526
One of the incentives

1150
01:03:25,526 --> 01:03:32,086
Over time one of the incentives to the attack incentives to attack bitcoin also grow in importance and they decrease in cost, right?

1151
01:03:32,086 --> 01:03:37,207
So the idea is that you shouldn't be able to coordinate these things, right?

1152
01:03:37,847 --> 01:03:43,366
Mining should be centralized to the point where you can't actually coordinate these things and it goes against the interest of the pool

1153
01:03:43,366 --> 01:03:45,446
You know, we have to go one topic at a time

1154
01:03:45,767 --> 01:03:48,007
This is boring because it doesn't happen for a long ass time

1155
01:03:48,007 --> 01:03:51,526
Can we talk about something like like I I don't like how we moved on past the idea

1156
01:03:51,766 --> 01:03:54,326
I know you guys like well, they you guys are moving

1157
01:03:55,606 --> 01:04:00,007
Paul answer me this man. The majority of my family i've been in bitcoin 15 years since 2011

1158
01:04:00,247 --> 01:04:05,526
Majority of my family has watched me i've advocated to them a zillion times. They've seen the price go up. They like

1159
01:04:06,086 --> 01:04:10,486
Still 15 years later. They're like, I don't know man. I don't know. It seems crazy

1160
01:04:11,287 --> 01:04:16,567
That's not the same for the darknet market. I didn't know the darknet market everyone knew. Oh if I want to buy whatever

1161
01:04:19,127 --> 01:04:21,627
Those people were technologically illiterate

1162
01:04:21,787 --> 01:04:23,787
We have saturated

1163
01:04:25,067 --> 01:04:28,266
You're saying the people who used who bought on on silk road were technically

1164
01:04:28,747 --> 01:04:33,146
I mean, I was one of them and I think that was the most retarded thing we ever did. I don't understand

1165
01:04:33,787 --> 01:04:36,907
They were able to get onion routing to work. They were able to get

1166
01:04:38,026 --> 01:04:42,106
They had onion routing to work. They had no point control. They didn't know anything about the UTXO sets

1167
01:04:42,187 --> 01:04:44,187
They don't know anything skip to the part

1168
01:04:45,306 --> 01:04:51,146
Can we agree can we agree that we have roughly exhausted the over 80 percent of the cohorts of

1169
01:04:51,627 --> 01:04:53,227
number go up diehards

1170
01:04:53,227 --> 01:04:55,866
uh dark market operators and other

1171
01:04:56,347 --> 01:05:01,866
Highly secondary people we have negative we went we were we had a 100 monopoly on darknet market

1172
01:05:02,426 --> 01:05:08,826
And now we lost it. Yeah, we lost we lost we lost tens of people. Oh jesus tens of adoption people like my point is

1173
01:05:09,306 --> 01:05:13,306
These cohorts are on the wrong way when we're talking about broad adoption and why it isn't here

1174
01:05:13,467 --> 01:05:14,907
Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this

1175
01:05:14,907 --> 01:05:18,986
Did you ever if there was something like you had email was invented but then all of a sudden it was like oh we're losing

1176
01:05:19,306 --> 01:05:23,387
Why are we losing anyone why why didn't my grandfather, uh jump on email?

1177
01:05:24,266 --> 01:05:26,747
Why did my grandfather jump on email? It was wait, wait, just like

1178
01:05:27,706 --> 01:05:30,347
Hold on for a second. My grandfather email came out

1179
01:05:30,426 --> 01:05:32,907
I think he had like 15 years of life left or something

1180
01:05:33,467 --> 01:05:36,026
But he saw me using my dad using it everyone using it

1181
01:05:36,426 --> 01:05:40,187
Didn't ever jump on had a computer used a fucking computer every day wouldn't do it

1182
01:05:40,747 --> 01:05:47,306
I don't think the uh email core developers didn't put in the right cool email extension or fuck around

1183
01:05:47,787 --> 01:05:53,706
Code to fuck with emails protocol that would convince him to use email. Guess what he had to do

1184
01:05:53,787 --> 01:05:55,947
Yeah, we're not gonna get fucking we're not going to get every

1185
01:05:56,747 --> 01:06:00,747
Person, but we're going we have to we should fight to get as many users as we should possibly get

1186
01:06:00,826 --> 01:06:04,986
What if someone what if someone at google was just like, uh, you know email if we get more people to adopt

1187
01:06:05,306 --> 01:06:07,306
Maybe two companies

1188
01:06:08,026 --> 01:06:11,387
I'm not saying the technicals don't matter at all. I'm not saying that i'm saying

1189
01:06:11,467 --> 01:06:13,627
Yeah, we can always do technically better we can scale better

1190
01:06:13,787 --> 01:06:18,026
But i'm saying the actual damn here the damn that needs to break

1191
01:06:18,507 --> 01:06:22,826
Is the fact that I can have my relatives who are not like programmers?

1192
01:06:23,387 --> 01:06:28,826
Hear this for 15 fucking years and they still won't buy a dollar of bitcoin

1193
01:06:28,907 --> 01:06:33,546
Why because they trust the government they don't trust bitcoin. It's a social problem

1194
01:06:33,627 --> 01:06:34,667
Why because they look at it

1195
01:06:34,667 --> 01:06:38,266
It's been kind of stable and only inflated at an average of like two and a half percent a year

1196
01:06:38,586 --> 01:06:41,467
So that makes them happy and safe in their security blanket

1197
01:06:41,866 --> 01:06:48,347
And what i'm saying is the thing that's going to send all those people running out of the burning theater is the fire

1198
01:06:48,826 --> 01:06:51,787
And we unfortunately don't have one yet. So I think we need that

1199
01:06:52,106 --> 01:06:56,106
I think it's nothing the bitcoin core can do. It's nothing your fork can do unfortunately

1200
01:06:56,187 --> 01:07:01,146
But didn't you ignore I addressed this point already? Like let's say it's tomorrow the fiat currencies collapse

1201
01:07:01,227 --> 01:07:04,826
They'll run for something and we need to be that's exactly how do you we want them?

1202
01:07:04,986 --> 01:07:08,586
How do we guarantee that it's btc? Well, I don't think they're going to be running pretty much

1203
01:07:09,146 --> 01:07:11,146
I don't think they're going to do that

1204
01:07:11,787 --> 01:07:17,306
By building the best product that attracts that they it's easiest to use lowest cost has the best features, etc

1205
01:07:17,546 --> 01:07:18,426
I

1206
01:07:18,426 --> 01:07:20,826
Building I think it's gonna be hard to offset that brand though

1207
01:07:20,826 --> 01:07:24,826
I think you're gonna run into some I mean that's a multi of course the brand is very very very important

1208
01:07:24,826 --> 01:07:26,826
that's what i'm saying is when the

1209
01:07:27,227 --> 01:07:29,227
bitcoin blocks fill up

1210
01:07:29,627 --> 01:07:33,227
It hurts the brand so the large blockers were right about that

1211
01:07:34,747 --> 01:07:38,426
Because people think oh this is costing me twenty dollars to send if I wanted to send my friend

1212
01:07:39,387 --> 01:07:41,227
ten dollars worth of bitcoin

1213
01:07:41,227 --> 01:07:43,227
Just to show them how it works

1214
01:07:43,467 --> 01:07:49,227
You couldn't even do that at certain points, but we have meaningful capacity. We have meaningful capacity offloading to L2s

1215
01:07:49,546 --> 01:07:54,106
I know that we need that we that's what we need to have but we don't have I think we will get recurse

1216
01:07:56,426 --> 01:08:01,706
With ibit you think they have to worry about transaction fees, what are you talking about?

1217
01:08:03,226 --> 01:08:09,147
We need real offloading to real L2s so that people actually learn the difference between bitcoin

1218
01:08:09,866 --> 01:08:10,806
and

1219
01:08:10,806 --> 01:08:12,806
custodial fiat

1220
01:08:12,966 --> 01:08:14,486
Um, that's what we need

1221
01:08:14,486 --> 01:08:19,286
And we need it so that and we need them to be merge mined so that the revenues go to L1 miners

1222
01:08:19,366 --> 01:08:22,166
So that as they grow everyone is on the same team

1223
01:08:22,966 --> 01:08:25,926
Everyone is uh, you know the the more money

1224
01:08:26,647 --> 01:08:28,647
People pay the more money miners get

1225
01:08:29,046 --> 01:08:32,647
Ever the miners stay loyal to the users and not to like weird other stuff like

1226
01:08:33,447 --> 01:08:36,247
Whatever they're doing now optics or whatever. They're loyal to now

1227
01:08:36,887 --> 01:08:38,567
Those that is what we need

1228
01:08:38,567 --> 01:08:41,286
And that is what we don't have and that is what we for some reason

1229
01:08:41,366 --> 01:08:46,327
We can't get even though it's served up on a silver platter mostly because people here who are saying

1230
01:08:46,647 --> 01:08:48,647
Oh, everything's fine. We don't need to do anything

1231
01:08:49,127 --> 01:08:53,207
So again, I hope you guys are right because that would mean that bitcoin will probably do really well

1232
01:08:53,827 --> 01:08:55,767
regardless of what happens

1233
01:08:55,767 --> 01:08:58,666
And I hope that that is the case, but I unfortunately

1234
01:08:59,366 --> 01:09:00,647
I just think

1235
01:09:00,647 --> 01:09:06,166
That you guys you guys barely no offense, but some of these points were litigated a long long time ago

1236
01:09:06,647 --> 01:09:08,647
people barely know the difference between

1237
01:09:08,887 --> 01:09:15,207
Stuff like dollar per unit and dollars basic unit people ask questions about like, oh, hey, what about this?

1238
01:09:15,687 --> 01:09:18,486
You know stuff that figured out years and years and years ago

1239
01:09:19,207 --> 01:09:20,247
And uh, you know

1240
01:09:20,247 --> 01:09:24,327
A lot of these ideas are just terrible and I don't trust any of you guys when you say everything's going to be fine

1241
01:09:24,726 --> 01:09:30,007
I just think that what you guys say is just mostly nonsense. I don't think it's gonna just gonna be fine

1242
01:09:30,007 --> 01:09:34,087
I think that yeah, unless we have something that sends people for the exits

1243
01:09:34,726 --> 01:09:38,726
Uh in a crazy catastrophic way, I think that's going to be the next

1244
01:09:39,447 --> 01:09:45,127
Big lever of adoption. Imagine you're right and everyone imagine you're right. Everyone rushes into bitcoin because it's got the best brand

1245
01:09:46,087 --> 01:09:50,587
So fiat collapses everyone rushes into bit what will happen then what will happen immediately?

1246
01:09:51,127 --> 01:09:53,127
They're probably going to go to it

1247
01:09:53,366 --> 01:09:57,866
If you really want to ask they're going to go towards apps like cash app and others that are roughly custodial

1248
01:09:58,406 --> 01:10:02,887
And they are going and then the fiat regime that just collapsed. What will they do to cash out?

1249
01:10:03,207 --> 01:10:07,366
We we don't know yet. They might try to attack them. It might be like the same golden. All this is weak

1250
01:10:07,527 --> 01:10:11,046
You guys you guys deserve better thoughts than this. I feel bad. What do you know?

1251
01:10:11,046 --> 01:10:14,567
I'm saying I hate to be I hate to be living in your brain because

1252
01:10:16,247 --> 01:10:18,247
Paul please wait a second

1253
01:10:19,447 --> 01:10:21,447
Wait a second here

1254
01:10:21,527 --> 01:10:30,087
I'm trying to walk you through what's probable whether you have your fork involved or not. Okay, if something happens catastrophically to the current financial order

1255
01:10:30,567 --> 01:10:37,447
People will run for the exits. They will probably whether it's your coin or another they're gonna go to a centralized solution

1256
01:10:37,527 --> 01:10:40,806
Or they're gonna go to custodians. Why because that's human nature, right?

1257
01:10:40,887 --> 01:10:46,567
Not because it's not the right coin or whatever the fuck. It's just that because it's where the off-ramps are

1258
01:10:46,726 --> 01:10:52,007
yeah, that's where the offer all sorts of reasons why but has nothing to do with this particular token and it's

1259
01:10:52,327 --> 01:10:58,247
Fucking nerd code that it's written with nothing about that. It's all humans. They don't know like you said you made a good point

1260
01:10:58,327 --> 01:11:03,606
They don't know. Yes, the people are retarded paul. I agree with you and the guru are retarded. So

1261
01:11:05,046 --> 01:11:08,087
Like that's my point is that's what's going to happen retarded things are going to happen

1262
01:11:08,166 --> 01:11:12,247
Whether you have your smart paul coin or you have your what you would call dumb bitcoin

1263
01:11:12,486 --> 01:11:15,207
It's all going to look kind of the same and I think at that point

1264
01:11:15,286 --> 01:11:17,207
We're still going to have things like the covenant stuff

1265
01:11:17,207 --> 01:11:23,606
We need that will open up orders of magnitude of L2 activity and we'll be able to support it if we need to

1266
01:11:24,007 --> 01:11:31,687
But it's about the need and the need arrives when the pain starts in my opinion, maybe i'm wrong daniel if if if fiat

1267
01:11:32,647 --> 01:11:34,007
kind of

1268
01:11:34,007 --> 01:11:36,007
Obbles along long enough

1269
01:11:36,247 --> 01:11:38,647
Such that that pain doesn't come soon enough

1270
01:11:39,926 --> 01:11:44,327
Does bitcoin have problems if we've scaled too far?

1271
01:11:44,887 --> 01:11:48,406
And there's virtually no on-chain activity. I don't think so personally

1272
01:11:48,406 --> 01:11:54,166
I think it ends up just I think there's like a couple levels. I think there's one level would be replacing gold, right?

1273
01:11:54,166 --> 01:11:56,166
and that's still achievable without the

1274
01:11:56,866 --> 01:12:02,887
Catastrophic like, you know euro and usd all collapse and we're like in a new monetary order. Do we accept the one?

1275
01:12:03,687 --> 01:12:06,327
That's only like a 20x or something. Yeah

1276
01:12:06,327 --> 01:12:11,207
Yeah, I think I think the gold thing is where it sits until we have an extreme case

1277
01:12:11,767 --> 01:12:15,527
And that's probably where it hovers right and then you need something

1278
01:12:16,007 --> 01:12:18,247
That attacks the coin, you know

1279
01:12:18,966 --> 01:12:22,166
Yeah, I think a million dollars a coin is going to be very sticky for a very long time

1280
01:12:22,567 --> 01:12:24,087
you know once we

1281
01:12:24,087 --> 01:12:29,767
Reach those but how much how much is the milk in that world like i'm paying 20 for a gallon of milk

1282
01:12:30,486 --> 01:12:32,486
It's equivalent

1283
01:12:32,546 --> 01:12:37,527
Equivalent 1 million to today's equivalent. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know who knows but

1284
01:12:38,486 --> 01:12:41,366
Anyways, I I can I can see that happening

1285
01:12:42,806 --> 01:12:44,806
Paul was you had a response

1286
01:12:45,527 --> 01:12:47,527
to

1287
01:12:47,527 --> 01:12:49,527
Everything we said retarded

1288
01:12:50,647 --> 01:12:53,286
No, I don't have anything nothing comes to mind

1289
01:12:54,007 --> 01:12:58,406
Why don't you trust us anymore? Where do we steer you wrong? Bitcoin's working exactly perfectly right now

1290
01:13:00,726 --> 01:13:05,366
Uh, like okay just a moment ago you said I don't remember exactly what it was it was before the space rug

1291
01:13:05,447 --> 01:13:09,127
But I was like this guy seriously asking a question like this now in 2026. What was it?

1292
01:13:09,767 --> 01:13:10,647
and

1293
01:13:10,647 --> 01:13:11,926
I don't remember what it was

1294
01:13:11,926 --> 01:13:16,247
But it's happened many times where you guys think like this is stuff people have thought about like 10 years ago

1295
01:13:16,887 --> 01:13:18,887
I you even just a few moments ago

1296
01:13:18,966 --> 01:13:21,527
You're like very confused as to whether or not I was talking about

1297
01:13:21,986 --> 01:13:26,806
Transactions being adopted and you thought I was talking about security budget and I just think well the reason I thought that was

1298
01:13:26,966 --> 01:13:29,627
Transact like transaction fees if there's people are transacting

1299
01:13:30,166 --> 01:13:35,127
That's you know, but the point is you're not even grasping. You're not even following what i'm saying. So why would I?

1300
01:13:35,767 --> 01:13:38,327
Trust that you when you say everything's gonna be fine. It's like

1301
01:13:39,286 --> 01:13:41,286
A doctor

1302
01:13:41,606 --> 01:13:44,406
And then it's like a four-year-old girl who doesn't know what cancer is trying to

1303
01:13:45,207 --> 01:13:48,406
10 years ago. I said bitcoin's gonna be fine and it's fine today

1304
01:13:49,447 --> 01:13:51,687
That's all you just have to connect the dots, bro

1305
01:13:52,406 --> 01:13:55,127
Just connect the dots gotta connect them. So i'm just saying

1306
01:13:56,007 --> 01:14:01,127
But you thought bitcoin by this point was fucked right? Like you were convinced for a very long time that bitcoin would have been

1307
01:14:01,527 --> 01:14:03,046
Talking about me

1308
01:14:03,046 --> 01:14:05,926
No, no, i've been a supporter of bitcoin the whole time until now

1309
01:14:06,567 --> 01:14:12,007
Right, but you wouldn't want to proactively worry for you paul. All right, so until now

1310
01:14:14,726 --> 01:14:18,327
Doing it so much when it was literally becoming a monopolist cult

1311
01:14:19,207 --> 01:14:25,046
And now i'm very concerned now. I still think it wasn't a cult in 2017. Now. It's a cult. You're not gonna

1312
01:14:25,606 --> 01:14:32,647
You're not gonna die. It wasn't it was more the earlier version of bitcoin was more open to like discussing ideas

1313
01:14:32,966 --> 01:14:34,327
Now

1314
01:14:34,327 --> 01:14:39,687
I think by 2017, it's pretty much what we have today. I think it's the same crowd paul. Are you I agree

1315
01:14:40,406 --> 01:14:45,366
Are you huddling your btc moving forward? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yes

1316
01:14:46,247 --> 01:14:51,207
At what I mean, but at a certain point you'd probably dump it if you thought it was really gonna die, right?

1317
01:14:51,366 --> 01:14:52,087
Yeah, we need that

1318
01:14:52,087 --> 01:14:57,046
We need to know like the price ratio and also the other information about like, you know

1319
01:14:57,127 --> 01:15:04,406
So a lot a lot is up in there what what would make you dump your coins and leave permanently you think bpp

1320
01:15:06,406 --> 01:15:08,007
Well, yeah if the

1321
01:15:08,007 --> 01:15:09,527
price of btc is

1322
01:15:09,527 --> 01:15:17,447
crashing against ecx is skyrocketing and it seems like uh, and for the right reasons like when people talk they say stuff like

1323
01:15:18,486 --> 01:15:20,887
They like play old recordings of spaces and they say well

1324
01:15:20,887 --> 01:15:26,087
I can't believe these people thought it didn't even matter if bitcoin got adopted and they did point and laugh and they say

1325
01:15:26,726 --> 01:15:29,387
What a crazy group of of lunatics

1326
01:15:31,926 --> 01:15:33,926
Mass adoption. I don't care. There's mass adoption

1327
01:15:34,486 --> 01:15:36,567
Obviously, I care if bitcoin gets adopted by no people

1328
01:15:37,606 --> 01:15:41,606
And then people would say like, oh, I don't it doesn't even matter if we how much money we pay the miners

1329
01:15:41,846 --> 01:15:44,647
That doesn't even matter how much proof of work there is in bitcoin

1330
01:15:44,726 --> 01:15:47,527
if people started saying stuff like that, like if they started saying like all the

1331
01:15:48,007 --> 01:15:52,486
All these normal people look into it for the first time and they're like, oh, yeah. Paul is actually right about all this stuff

1332
01:15:53,447 --> 01:15:54,806
and um

1333
01:15:55,127 --> 01:15:57,127
I think another thing would be

1334
01:15:57,286 --> 01:16:01,286
If btc just say that people don't understand even what they're talking about

1335
01:16:01,286 --> 01:16:03,926
So, how are they going to grasp that paul is right about this? Paul's right?

1336
01:16:04,406 --> 01:16:10,486
Well, because I think it's partly motivated reasoning, of course what paul's paul you're just recycling old memes

1337
01:16:10,567 --> 01:16:15,926
These memes need to be upgraded. I love it. We all we all learn the memes when we're new you learn

1338
01:16:18,726 --> 01:16:24,247
That the miners are going to be in trouble if the if the if they're not making there's not enough fees

1339
01:16:24,806 --> 01:16:27,286
Mr. Hoddle just said he said like a few moments ago

1340
01:16:27,286 --> 01:16:30,567
He said that it was true that if there was if it fell to a really low

1341
01:16:30,806 --> 01:16:34,326
He said it on three different occasions. In fact, he said it in the other space as well

1342
01:16:34,566 --> 01:16:37,606
So I said that's his opinion. I said what I said what what I said

1343
01:16:38,887 --> 01:16:42,807
That if the proof the total proof of work, you know, the total it's my money

1344
01:16:43,846 --> 01:16:50,486
The way in which you're talking about extremes is oversimplified. It doesn't take into account the real nature of the landscape today

1345
01:16:50,647 --> 01:16:52,647
No, I said

1346
01:16:52,807 --> 01:16:56,486
I said bitcoin could be over secured today and you wouldn't have any idea. That's what I said

1347
01:16:57,047 --> 01:16:59,446
That's i'm not talking about today. I'm talking about the far future

1348
01:17:00,086 --> 01:17:04,887
If the far future, this is why it's so difficult to talk to you guys. You don't even remember you you you said

1349
01:17:05,686 --> 01:17:07,686
moments ago

1350
01:17:08,887 --> 01:17:16,167
Five dollars total paid in transaction all every single transaction be added up for a year and it falls to some super low

1351
01:17:16,407 --> 01:17:21,047
So I was saying again, I would keep repeating this if there's no demand for bitcoin bitcoin dies, so yes

1352
01:17:21,606 --> 01:17:23,606
the value of youtube

1353
01:17:25,127 --> 01:17:26,566
But that's not like

1354
01:17:26,566 --> 01:17:30,486
I think everyone is aware. There's no demand for something. That's what he said t-speed

1355
01:17:31,127 --> 01:17:34,726
He said if this if no money's being paid to the miners in bitcoin

1356
01:17:35,127 --> 01:17:39,446
That's different than bitcoin demand if there's people still buying bitcoin. I'm telling you

1357
01:17:40,726 --> 01:17:43,366
If people are buying if they're still in 130 years

1358
01:17:43,846 --> 01:17:47,066
Okay, this is another thing you guys keep confusing and it's getting tiresome

1359
01:17:58,086 --> 01:18:01,446
And people are still buying bitcoin if there's demand for bitcoin

1360
01:18:01,927 --> 01:18:07,527
I'm talking about the coin. What are you talking? That's the value the value of the coin is the transaction. Okay?

1361
01:18:07,686 --> 01:18:11,206
Okay, paul. Listen again if there's demand for oh my god, listen to me

1362
01:18:11,606 --> 01:18:15,127
This is like i'm this is like if i've done something in the past life, you're not going to listen

1363
01:18:15,446 --> 01:18:17,446
Yes, maybe I was like

1364
01:18:17,527 --> 01:18:19,527
I don't need to listen. This is why you're forking out

1365
01:18:20,407 --> 01:18:25,287
So if there's if there's people going on crack it and coinbase and they're still buying bitcoin on there

1366
01:18:25,287 --> 01:18:30,007
But they're not transacting on chain. There's still demand for bitcoin. The value there is still there

1367
01:18:30,167 --> 01:18:37,527
So what happens demand for bitcoin the coin you understand that there's a different thing businesses that sell you bitcoin the coin

1368
01:18:38,247 --> 01:18:39,206
They

1369
01:18:39,206 --> 01:18:41,846
We're on the same page like coinbase. We're not talking about that

1370
01:18:43,047 --> 01:18:44,966
Does coinbase now have an incentive to mine?

1371
01:18:44,966 --> 01:18:49,127
We're talking about does coinbase have an incentive to mine if there's still demand for bitcoin possibly

1372
01:18:49,446 --> 01:18:52,807
Yes, but then they would they would be paying the transaction fee, right?

1373
01:18:55,527 --> 01:18:58,566
That's exactly what we're trying to say there's demand for bitcoin, right?

1374
01:18:58,966 --> 01:19:03,606
I agree with you what I passed version of you that said if there's no demand for bitcoin then it does now you're trying to

1375
01:19:03,606 --> 01:19:05,606
Contribute mining fees and transactions

1376
01:19:06,167 --> 01:19:10,807
You're talking about mining fees and transactions and i'm telling you there's demand for bitcoin bitcoin stays alive

1377
01:19:11,767 --> 01:19:18,507
Even if there's little very little transaction fees coinbase, they will subsidize the mining. You will have companies subsidizing that shit

1378
01:19:18,725 --> 01:19:22,025
As long as bitcoin isn't like visa is like a company

1379
01:19:29,285 --> 01:19:35,225
There's no one out there using the visa card, there's no one out there using the visa card in stores, but you can buy the collectible

1380
01:19:35,845 --> 01:19:42,405
Visa plastic card on ebay and you're saying there's still demand for visa. It's just you can mixing up the words

1381
01:19:42,645 --> 01:19:45,444
It's just you mixing up the words. It's not a real argument

1382
01:19:45,765 --> 01:19:51,205
It's just you mixing up two different corn UTXOs and people are going to these exchanges and continue buying

1383
01:19:51,765 --> 01:19:54,725
Go back to tc. Can we just go back to tc and hear the meme?

1384
01:19:57,125 --> 01:20:01,364
I want to hear the meme that i'm repeating supposedly i'm just uncritically repeating some meme I heard

1385
01:20:02,324 --> 01:20:04,484
You're saying you're basically saying one person

1386
01:20:06,164 --> 01:20:09,524
I'm saying there's no demand for bitcoin bitcoin dies and then you're saying two seconds later

1387
01:20:09,524 --> 01:20:11,524
I said if there's no demand for transactions

1388
01:20:11,524 --> 01:20:16,085
Yeah, i'm telling you there's no demand for bitcoin if people don't demand bitcoin, of course bitcoin dies

1389
01:20:16,085 --> 01:20:19,765
There's no demand for it. Watch me a measurement an effective measurement of the

1390
01:20:20,565 --> 01:20:25,045
Demand for bitcoin transactions is the total security budget amount

1391
01:20:25,845 --> 01:20:29,364
So that's a great measurement of value of demand. I have a question for you

1392
01:20:30,085 --> 01:20:36,485
Um, do you okay fine? Do you think your personality in particular has held back dip 300 from being adopted?

1393
01:20:36,725 --> 01:20:38,725
I got it doesn't couldn't care less

1394
01:20:38,964 --> 01:20:40,725
But no, I don't think so

1395
01:20:40,725 --> 01:20:42,885
Because you think everything else has been held back as well

1396
01:20:43,604 --> 01:20:47,305
Because of course I was much nicer about it in in 2015 2016

1397
01:20:48,004 --> 01:20:51,445
So actually, I don't think that's it was mostly a joke. I'll take it personally

1398
01:20:52,004 --> 01:20:55,604
Yeah, no, I actually think i've been super nice about the whole thing

1399
01:20:56,244 --> 01:20:58,644
right, um, and it's now it's just like

1400
01:20:59,525 --> 01:21:01,684
Um, yeah, i'm very humble as well

1401
01:21:04,004 --> 01:21:06,805
So I want to hear from tc this meme security budget

1402
01:21:07,045 --> 01:21:09,045
Cash

1403
01:21:10,085 --> 01:21:16,725
It's definitely mean but I I like wrote this giant article with like graphs and papers and stuff

1404
01:21:17,445 --> 01:21:19,284
29 2021

1405
01:21:19,284 --> 01:21:21,284
And you can say in that article

1406
01:21:22,244 --> 01:21:24,244
Budget that keeps it secure

1407
01:21:26,725 --> 01:21:30,885
Um, well, you know, it's kind of a silly question as you are very well aware

1408
01:21:30,965 --> 01:21:32,965
It's kind of like well if we're trying to secure a nation

1409
01:21:33,284 --> 01:21:37,924
How much money does the army need and it's like well, no one knows like the exact miners are not the army

1410
01:21:39,045 --> 01:21:46,424
That's the meme you're talking about a a disparate distributed group of people competing against one another as if they're a unified

1411
01:21:46,864 --> 01:21:48,864
organized top down

1412
01:21:49,045 --> 01:21:51,764
It's obvious that it is a one issue

1413
01:21:52,165 --> 01:21:57,204
So the fact that you guys blow it off is that this is exactly what i'm talking about why we're all screwed

1414
01:21:57,685 --> 01:21:59,685
because it's

1415
01:21:59,924 --> 01:22:05,364
One at least one dimension that people should at least discuss and have some kind of vague plan

1416
01:22:06,004 --> 01:22:09,685
For getting to at some point stick around for long enough and you see

1417
01:22:10,085 --> 01:22:17,685
The the reality actually play out multiple times and you see extreme situations resolve the way they do. Maybe you update your

1418
01:22:18,885 --> 01:22:23,364
What do you mean about nation securing nations like miners secure the the transaction?

1419
01:22:23,364 --> 01:22:29,364
So obviously if I had like, you know 100 million dollar transaction, I might want to wait more than two or three confirmations

1420
01:22:29,364 --> 01:22:35,045
I might want to wait six confirmations or 10 confirmations to feel secure to feel secure. There's enough work

1421
01:22:35,445 --> 01:22:38,644
But if it's 10 cents if it's 10 cents each block

1422
01:22:41,605 --> 01:22:46,404
Then it's only bad very much waiting six blocks so 10 cents 10 cents, uh bitcoin

1423
01:22:46,404 --> 01:22:51,045
There's no demand for bitcoin if it's um, if the block reward i'm thinking like there's 2000

1424
01:22:51,284 --> 01:22:57,124
Just say there's 2000 transactions in every block and each of them pays one cent per transaction

1425
01:22:57,124 --> 01:22:59,124
So it's 20 is worth each

1426
01:23:00,805 --> 01:23:05,045
But it's a good thing that we still have the substance for quite some time that is

1427
01:23:05,605 --> 01:23:10,004
Okay, i'm glad that we agree that it is at some point it becomes an issue

1428
01:23:10,245 --> 01:23:13,685
Did the block size limit get eliminated in this hypothetical situation?

1429
01:23:15,764 --> 01:23:17,764
I don't know. Yeah, it doesn't matter

1430
01:23:19,284 --> 01:23:22,644
We're shooting from the hip here man, this is how we do things sir. Hey, I got one for you

1431
01:23:22,805 --> 01:23:25,844
If there's no more oxygen left, we all stop breathing and die

1432
01:23:26,165 --> 01:23:31,525
I mean like to say like if there's no one transacting bitcoin in 120 years. Yeah, that's a problem

1433
01:23:32,805 --> 01:23:36,165
But like how do you fucking know what's gonna happen in 120 years?

1434
01:23:37,124 --> 01:23:40,885
And why are we fixing this right now? Why are we pretending that we're gonna fix this right now?

1435
01:23:41,045 --> 01:23:46,964
We don't even know that this actually becomes an issue higher than never before in the fucking history of bitcoin besides two years ago

1436
01:23:48,404 --> 01:23:50,404
Like the reward it's not about

1437
01:23:51,205 --> 01:23:57,205
The security is not about the value of the block reward that secures the bitcoin blockchain has been going up

1438
01:23:57,365 --> 01:23:59,365
It's not been going down

1439
01:24:00,564 --> 01:24:04,404
It's not about like fixing it today it's like people have lost the

1440
01:24:04,964 --> 01:24:10,885
Like the will to even like bother like discussing it like an any normal person. It's fucking retard

1441
01:24:10,964 --> 01:24:13,284
I mean i'm all about you. I'm all about you forking bitcoins

1442
01:24:13,284 --> 01:24:17,605
You think so said they're giving us an airdrop and like doing all that i'm i'm not against that

1443
01:24:17,925 --> 01:24:23,524
But the idea is fucking retarded compared to us running out of oxygen on planet earth when it's a it's

1444
01:24:24,244 --> 01:24:27,045
literally built in to the argument for bitcoin that

1445
01:24:27,765 --> 01:24:32,885
That the transaction revenue will grow over time and satoshi has quotes about in 20 years

1446
01:24:34,964 --> 01:24:39,765
Let's say 10 million dollars and each utix of values value much higher than it is today

1447
01:24:40,084 --> 01:24:46,004
but there's you know, maybe in bitcoin terms the fees aren't as high as

1448
01:24:46,485 --> 01:24:50,244
A 50 bitcoin block subsidy, but the value is much greater

1449
01:24:50,725 --> 01:24:54,004
Does that still like secure bitcoin as long as bitcoin security budget?

1450
01:24:54,244 --> 01:24:56,885
Not even like it's not even one of the top five

1451
01:24:57,524 --> 01:24:59,524
Issue, even though it is

1452
01:24:59,765 --> 01:25:03,284
I mean, I feel like we tackled the security budget. What's the other one? We tried to

1453
01:25:04,244 --> 01:25:06,244
You know, it's adoption in general

1454
01:25:06,244 --> 01:25:13,365
It says that if the if you have two cryptocurrencies and one is fighting tooth and nail to get as many users as you can

1455
01:25:14,165 --> 01:25:18,485
Do you have an example of a cryptocurrency that god demand that people wanted

1456
01:25:18,964 --> 01:25:24,964
That had staying powerly bitcoin because like well we get with the usdt on tron. That's dollars. Those are dollars

1457
01:25:24,964 --> 01:25:30,645
That's usd. That's yes dollars are very popular before bitcoin. They're going to be popular for a very long time

1458
01:25:30,645 --> 01:25:32,964
I'm, not I don't think dollars are going to die in our

1459
01:25:33,684 --> 01:25:39,445
Anytime soon, right? Like we're going to see dollars relatively pretty strong. That's not a cryptocurrency. That's dollar. That's a digital dollar

1460
01:25:40,404 --> 01:25:42,404
It could be

1461
01:25:42,485 --> 01:25:49,124
Even need a fucking blockchain. It's just they use blockchain for arbitrage like to fool out. No, I don't think that's quite the case

1462
01:25:49,284 --> 01:25:51,844
but one of the things people like about it is that it is

1463
01:25:52,404 --> 01:25:54,404
It has some blockchain

1464
01:25:58,564 --> 01:26:03,284
Maybe before when they thought there was some kind of censorship resistance because blockchain magic maybe it made sense

1465
01:26:03,284 --> 01:26:09,205
But now too many funds have been frozen too many funds get seized. It's it's fiat man. It's it's it's a zell

1466
01:26:09,205 --> 01:26:11,524
It's zell 2.0 world. Like it's a worldwide zell

1467
01:26:12,564 --> 01:26:17,445
There's no blockchain. There's we'll give each other is making a lot of yield on those bonds, though

1468
01:26:19,925 --> 01:26:25,365
Right exactly tether's making a huge amount of money, but I don't think that's that's not really like I don't think

1469
01:26:26,084 --> 01:26:27,605
The there's no, you know

1470
01:26:27,605 --> 01:26:31,365
You don't need to have it if we had an example already of one that was getting users

1471
01:26:31,365 --> 01:26:33,365
Then that one would probably already be taking over

1472
01:26:34,004 --> 01:26:39,605
The crypto world and so what i'm worried about is why would we rest where we have a big lead

1473
01:26:40,325 --> 01:26:43,844
And why would we you know, it's like a tortoise in the hair situation

1474
01:26:44,004 --> 01:26:51,605
Why would we just think that it's just some action by you or someone else that's missing when it's truly a chaotic

1475
01:26:52,325 --> 01:26:53,344
and

1476
01:26:53,344 --> 01:26:56,485
Unorganized organic growth and adoption story

1477
01:26:57,205 --> 01:27:00,804
Like every other innovative technology that's ever come along

1478
01:27:01,524 --> 01:27:06,244
The thing is this kind of already happened and let me speak here so

1479
01:27:07,284 --> 01:27:12,244
I was um watching some roger ver videos because why not and

1480
01:27:12,964 --> 01:27:15,124
I saw him talking about um

1481
01:27:16,084 --> 01:27:19,844
Well, I wasn't there but it was like 2017 or 16 or something like that

1482
01:27:20,404 --> 01:27:25,605
You had huge spikes of usage actual usage, you know, you had the steam, uh, you know

1483
01:27:25,605 --> 01:27:31,765
The one you buy the games in uh was actually adopting bitcoin. You had a lot of companies like this actual companies that people use

1484
01:27:32,804 --> 01:27:35,605
Yeah, yeah that they were actually adopting bitcoin

1485
01:27:36,004 --> 01:27:38,564
but then one of the big reasons they stopped is because

1486
01:27:38,964 --> 01:27:44,244
The the fees were becoming so high that it it didn't make sense anymore for it for them to accept

1487
01:27:44,564 --> 01:27:48,004
They never they never stopped at bitcoin. They adopted bit pay

1488
01:27:48,404 --> 01:27:53,365
Which was they were getting fiat and they're using a merchant processor to fucking get dollars

1489
01:27:55,685 --> 01:28:00,404
Sure might be no, that's not might be that's what happened. It was a bit pay bit like using bit

1490
01:28:02,404 --> 01:28:05,365
Still counts as bitcoin adoption. That's not adopting

1491
01:28:06,165 --> 01:28:07,524
Come on

1492
01:28:07,524 --> 01:28:10,404
That's beside the point if at least adds one

1493
01:28:10,964 --> 01:28:15,365
Element of bitcoin it goes from being zero fiat. I guess one. I got news for you guys

1494
01:28:15,764 --> 01:28:18,485
uh bit pay still exists and now we also have uh

1495
01:28:18,884 --> 01:28:21,365
Square that made that even a bigger thing

1496
01:28:21,444 --> 01:28:26,245
So great news bitcoin has more merchant adoptions today in that case than ever before

1497
01:28:27,844 --> 01:28:33,524
Sure, but the thing is what happened or at least what this whole conversation i'm feeling fucking dumber and dumber man

1498
01:28:33,844 --> 01:28:35,844
i'm supposed to be the dumb guy here

1499
01:28:36,485 --> 01:28:38,485
Overlighting doesn't count

1500
01:28:39,204 --> 01:28:44,805
So what seems to have happened is that uh, you had growing usage, but then it plateaued and stopped

1501
01:28:45,444 --> 01:28:48,805
Because of the fees if we had uh Drivechains or

1502
01:28:49,444 --> 01:28:51,444
Well any other good scaling solution

1503
01:28:52,245 --> 01:28:54,805
We could have continued growing or at least

1504
01:28:55,605 --> 01:28:57,605
uh, you know

1505
01:28:57,685 --> 01:29:00,485
So how many merchants that's what I mean here cash app now

1506
01:29:02,245 --> 01:29:06,964
What how many merchants are tied into bitcoin through cash app now or through square rather

1507
01:29:08,404 --> 01:29:10,884
I don't know more or less. I don't know

1508
01:29:12,485 --> 01:29:14,165
Many more

1509
01:29:14,245 --> 01:29:16,245
So are we not scaling? Okay, so

1510
01:29:16,565 --> 01:29:18,324
I mean if you consider

1511
01:29:18,324 --> 01:29:23,605
Bitpay, you know like merchants tied into bitpay as scaling bitcoin in those prior years

1512
01:29:23,685 --> 01:29:28,084
Then you should also consider the thing is it took way much square the thing

1513
01:29:28,404 --> 01:29:30,404
It took way much time than it could

1514
01:29:30,644 --> 01:29:37,605
And that's a bad thing because we were on a let's say microsoft. They said microsoft and l whatever

1515
01:29:38,165 --> 01:29:40,165
So they were accepting bitcoin

1516
01:29:40,165 --> 01:29:45,925
But then they stopped I don't think you can you but you can't put I mean you can't put the horse before the

1517
01:29:46,485 --> 01:29:50,245
What is it the cart before the horse horse before the cart? Yeah. Yeah, whatever order it is

1518
01:29:50,725 --> 01:29:55,444
You can't put the horse goes in front the horse goes in front so you can't put the cart before the horse

1519
01:29:55,524 --> 01:29:57,365
There's no cart

1520
01:29:57,365 --> 01:29:59,444
Is it a cart horse or a horse cart? I don't know man

1521
01:30:00,165 --> 01:30:07,524
Yeah, but my main point here is that if we had uh working scaling solutions there in which uh, people wouldn't

1522
01:30:07,925 --> 01:30:09,925
Wouldn't need to pay absurd

1523
01:30:10,565 --> 01:30:15,125
You think they would have stuck around and that would have been more viral and it would have built. Yeah

1524
01:30:15,284 --> 01:30:17,284
And built and yeah, no

1525
01:30:17,524 --> 01:30:23,444
I mean not forever. Obviously not forever. Obviously, but more than anything. Oh, you're obviously right. Okay, wait, wait

1526
01:30:23,524 --> 01:30:25,444
No, I I disagree

1527
01:30:25,444 --> 01:30:32,324
So I I think I think bitcoin would have still gone through cycles and it's not just fees going up that caused people to leave

1528
01:30:32,565 --> 01:30:37,125
It's crashing of price that caused people to leave which by the way coincided, right?

1529
01:30:37,125 --> 01:30:41,045
I mean typically fees go up when things are crazy and then they crash

1530
01:30:41,685 --> 01:30:44,565
When you know things crash and that's when people leave

1531
01:30:45,045 --> 01:30:47,764
So you might say oh they left because the fees were high

1532
01:30:47,844 --> 01:30:53,204
But you also you know, if you're actually paying attention, you might realize they left because the market crashed

1533
01:30:54,245 --> 01:30:56,404
So, I mean you could you could say it both ways

1534
01:30:57,204 --> 01:31:01,365
And I think the people that were buying computers or whatever from dell

1535
01:31:02,084 --> 01:31:03,844
They were buying it

1536
01:31:03,844 --> 01:31:05,344
because of like

1537
01:31:05,344 --> 01:31:10,565
Speculation because when you buy something with bitcoin, you're not really buying it

1538
01:31:11,125 --> 01:31:14,165
Like you probably believe in something on bitcoin

1539
01:31:15,045 --> 01:31:18,725
Or if you don't believe it, it's like the dark net market kind of thing, you know

1540
01:31:19,045 --> 01:31:26,324
There's some other motive. I think that the the amount of commerce that was happening on bitcoin in those early years is

1541
01:31:26,565 --> 01:31:29,844
heavily overstated I mean it was probably less than

1542
01:31:30,565 --> 01:31:32,565
It was tens of dollars of commerce

1543
01:31:34,324 --> 01:31:37,204
I mean how many people really bought dell computers using bitcoin

1544
01:31:38,165 --> 01:31:41,685
Hundreds at most thousands, you know, like maybe probably not

1545
01:31:46,964 --> 01:31:49,284
Marcus I was almost the 11th employee at coinbase

1546
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:53,284
And I sold and I literally connected tighter direct

1547
01:31:53,844 --> 01:31:59,365
As a merchant sitting in a closet in coinbase's first office, which was

1548
01:31:59,844 --> 01:32:04,404
A an apartment on biloxi by fourth and king and so fully involved in that

1549
01:32:04,805 --> 01:32:08,964
It was all like yeah, everyone was willing to kind of add it as a fun little gimmick

1550
01:32:09,444 --> 01:32:13,444
It drove hardly any demand. Um, there was not very much volume

1551
01:32:13,925 --> 01:32:17,605
It was sort of like and people didn't really understand the tax implications too early

1552
01:32:17,685 --> 01:32:20,084
It was too early and I just want to throw cold water

1553
01:32:20,084 --> 01:32:22,725
And so I know everyone's gonna fucking hate me because i'm bringing up the government

1554
01:32:23,284 --> 01:32:29,125
Uh, I do this by the way, I avoid it because I just don't want fucking problems. I don't report that I bought bitcoin

1555
01:32:29,204 --> 01:32:33,444
I don't want to spend it and incur fucking capital gains. I don't want to touch any of that shit

1556
01:32:33,524 --> 01:32:35,524
I just accumulate it like smog the dragon

1557
01:32:35,925 --> 01:32:39,524
And i'm waiting for bad things to happen to the government so I can spend it more freely

1558
01:32:39,844 --> 01:32:42,964
Um or them to clear cap gains in the clarity act or something like that

1559
01:32:43,365 --> 01:32:47,925
Why not because i'm deathly afraid but it is something where I just don't want to fuck with it

1560
01:32:48,165 --> 01:32:54,404
And that's the vast majority like my aunts and uncles and everyone that's watched me and has this like social aversion to it

1561
01:32:54,884 --> 01:33:00,344
If you tell them oh, well, don't worry there's an yeah, it's cap gains when you buy your fucking starbucks

1562
01:33:00,725 --> 01:33:06,725
And technically you're gonna owe like seven cents cap gains on that and there's like a line item report

1563
01:33:06,964 --> 01:33:11,685
But don't worry turbo tax is really good and they're gonna tell you to fuck yourself

1564
01:33:12,384 --> 01:33:18,324
Repeatedly and that's actually what is causing people not to adopt it because that is a shit show

1565
01:33:18,805 --> 01:33:23,764
And we have to clear up the shit show first and nothing bitcoin core can do

1566
01:33:24,165 --> 01:33:26,165
I have not seen a line of code

1567
01:33:26,324 --> 01:33:30,565
That will prevent my uncle from having to file cap gains tax on his fucking latte

1568
01:33:30,565 --> 01:33:34,324
I have not seen how bitcoin core can do that. I am willing to be convinced. I agree

1569
01:33:34,964 --> 01:33:37,844
That but you agree there's multiple hurdles. They have to be jumped

1570
01:33:38,245 --> 01:33:40,485
So it's like if the software didn't wouldn't handle it

1571
01:33:40,485 --> 01:33:44,485
Anyway, then it's kind of a mood point that it would also be have bad tax treatment

1572
01:33:44,485 --> 01:33:48,725
So there's multiple hurdles. So it's not just like even if we clear both those hurdles, we might find out

1573
01:33:48,964 --> 01:33:50,964
I'm surprised there's a third hurdle

1574
01:33:51,764 --> 01:33:58,245
I would say in response to you and your claim that you know, these companies dropped bitcoin support because of fees

1575
01:33:58,884 --> 01:34:05,284
I would actually say well, I would say they dropped it primarily because it was such low volume and usage

1576
01:34:05,365 --> 01:34:10,644
It wasn't worth supporting right so like and and maybe that got killed even further by fees

1577
01:34:11,045 --> 01:34:13,764
But prior to the fee spikes you probably had what?

1578
01:34:14,404 --> 01:34:19,685
Ends dozens hundreds of people using it versus but it was millions of people using fiat also

1579
01:34:20,324 --> 01:34:22,324
And it's the problem with you're supporting

1580
01:34:23,045 --> 01:34:26,644
You're supporting this money. It also work for no reason basically, right?

1581
01:34:26,725 --> 01:34:32,985
It's also confusing for people so people would call like customer service. They'd say I don't know. I don't have confirmation

1582
01:34:36,725 --> 01:34:42,644
Such a small cohort of people who even want to buy computers using bitcoin, but this is the issue is we need to grow

1583
01:34:44,005 --> 01:34:48,084
We want to take seriously and i'm not saying that it's a matter of life or death

1584
01:34:49,204 --> 01:34:54,245
Tomorrow, but I am saying that if we we can't just say take an attitude that it doesn't matter at all

1585
01:34:55,204 --> 01:34:57,204
Permanently for like 10 years the point

1586
01:34:57,605 --> 01:35:01,125
The point is that during those early years it was too early

1587
01:35:01,844 --> 01:35:05,125
Even if you had skilled perfectly and there wasn't any fee spikes

1588
01:35:05,685 --> 01:35:10,005
It would have been too early and they probably would have just been like well, that was a fun experiment

1589
01:35:10,005 --> 01:35:16,644
But we still are only getting a hundred orders, you know every month from bitcoin. Why are we supporting this shit?

1590
01:35:16,805 --> 01:35:22,005
Why do you think they stopped nobody ordering it? The thing is if the software was good enough

1591
01:35:22,725 --> 01:35:25,925
um, they could just have kept it there, you know, if

1592
01:35:26,324 --> 01:35:28,805
It was good enough. I mean, it's it's just working

1593
01:35:29,685 --> 01:35:34,165
You don't just I mean that's not it takes one human being to be assigned to to

1594
01:35:34,565 --> 01:35:39,204
Update it and fuck around with it constantly like look one person looks a three hundred thousand dollar engineer

1595
01:35:39,685 --> 01:35:43,524
They spend like 20 of their time on it. Yeah, you're committing 60 grand

1596
01:35:43,524 --> 01:35:45,125
You better have fucking 60 grand sales

1597
01:35:45,125 --> 01:35:49,125
If you don't guess what it's getting yanked period and it was too early and that's your point, right?

1598
01:35:49,365 --> 01:35:53,125
You you can't and this is what i'm talking about with the fucking cart before the horse

1599
01:35:53,605 --> 01:35:59,605
You can't do that because you actually need legitimate adoption right before you can actually support it

1600
01:35:59,605 --> 01:36:02,245
So I think I think a lot of these companies jumped the gun

1601
01:36:02,324 --> 01:36:06,644
They supported it too early thinking that there was enough bitcoiners to drive, you know real

1602
01:36:07,284 --> 01:36:13,764
Commerce and there wasn't there just simply wasn't it had I mean and the and the fees exacerbated it during that hype cycle

1603
01:36:14,565 --> 01:36:18,005
And then the crash afterwards exacerbated it even more

1604
01:36:18,884 --> 01:36:21,204
And so they just dropped off like flies. That's it

1605
01:36:22,084 --> 01:36:28,324
Weren't you guys saying it was bitpay that was actually processing those payments. It was coinbase bitpay. There's a few of them

1606
01:36:28,405 --> 01:36:34,485
There was a few merchant processors that I worked with over the years. I I remember in at mozilla in 2012

1607
01:36:34,564 --> 01:36:41,684
I had brian and fred and then jesse in to compete for like accepting bitcoin donations in mozilla, for instance

1608
01:36:42,084 --> 01:36:45,844
Um, so yeah, so isn't it their job to make it keep working?

1609
01:36:46,324 --> 01:36:50,005
And not just a random engineer that has to be like they're doing. No

1610
01:36:50,084 --> 01:36:53,765
No, I mean look you still have to have some integration. Sure. You can have a service provider that does

1611
01:36:54,804 --> 01:36:56,804
This is not constant integration

1612
01:36:57,365 --> 01:37:02,885
It shouldn't be like yeah, it probably needs some maintenance, but it shouldn't be too much, you know, that's the thing

1613
01:37:03,844 --> 01:37:08,485
But then okay, so a lot of it was was the reality of all these things about tax filings

1614
01:37:08,564 --> 01:37:12,564
I remember I remember we didn't actually there was a misfire when we were accepting bitcoin

1615
01:37:13,125 --> 01:37:16,005
First because we had to do all these crazy weird tax treatments to it

1616
01:37:16,005 --> 01:37:20,964
So they at first when I got an agreement on who was going to handle it then they were like, oh

1617
01:37:21,044 --> 01:37:24,804
well, I don't know if we can touch it then it went to the lawyers and they fucked around with it and it was just

1618
01:37:24,804 --> 01:37:25,605
like

1619
01:37:25,605 --> 01:37:32,164
There's just so there was so much at that early time that prevented people from cleanly just accepting it

1620
01:37:32,245 --> 01:37:34,804
I think there's a lot more fertile ground for it now

1621
01:37:35,285 --> 01:37:40,485
but we've exhausted the five percent of the world who are just going to hold bitcoin because they see this

1622
01:37:41,125 --> 01:37:42,645
sort of like

1623
01:37:42,645 --> 01:37:46,485
Black swan asset that that we've exhausted that percentage now

1624
01:37:46,485 --> 01:37:50,405
We have to move on to my uncle earl. You have to tell him you have to tell paul

1625
01:37:50,405 --> 01:37:54,324
You know, maybe we get you on a little call or something and you can he's a lay person

1626
01:37:54,725 --> 01:37:58,184
And you can just say like hey man, like what can I put into eCash?

1627
01:37:58,645 --> 01:38:01,125
that's going to get you really excited and he's going to look at you and say

1628
01:38:01,765 --> 01:38:03,605
bro, i've got like a

1629
01:38:03,605 --> 01:38:09,525
Index mutual fund. Uh, I think it buys like toyota and I have no fucking idea what you're talking about

1630
01:38:09,844 --> 01:38:14,005
I just think this is crazy internet money still because like I see it going all over the place and like

1631
01:38:14,324 --> 01:38:17,525
Can you make it as stable as usd, please? And you're going to say god damn it

1632
01:38:17,525 --> 01:38:21,605
I don't I don't have a pr for that yet. And then he's going to say well you let me know when you do

1633
01:38:22,245 --> 01:38:24,245
And then uh, and then i'll jump right on

1634
01:38:24,645 --> 01:38:26,645
That's that's what's going to happen

1635
01:38:26,110 --> 01:38:30,270
Yeah, but I've said in the past in this in this space or whatever

1636
01:38:30,270 --> 01:38:33,950
The other one that rugged is people there are many different people who adopt for different reasons

1637
01:38:33,950 --> 01:38:39,090
So you have canadian truckers you have people in war-torn countries. You have people with uh hyperinflation

1638
01:38:39,710 --> 01:38:43,069
Then you have privacy enthusiasts then you have people doing illegal stuff

1639
01:38:43,150 --> 01:38:46,350
So you have all kinds of different people adopting some people will adopt

1640
01:38:46,749 --> 01:38:51,790
Just because they want to get ahead of something new some people will adopt because the network they'll adopt later

1641
01:38:51,790 --> 01:38:55,950
So once you have 80 of the population the last 20 is very easy

1642
01:38:56,350 --> 01:39:00,749
In what you just said you just skipped that you made a huge leap there. Okay, let's say let's roll that

1643
01:39:01,150 --> 01:39:06,749
I'm saying there's a whole process where each, you know, one stage leads to the the next actually

1644
01:39:08,350 --> 01:39:12,190
Let's say that that cohort is number go uppers black market people

1645
01:39:12,970 --> 01:39:18,270
Dissidents and like people in extreme hyperinflation countries. Let's just put them in a cohort

1646
01:39:18,270 --> 01:39:21,389
I think they're kind of even a lot of people are in like medium inflation countries

1647
01:39:21,549 --> 01:39:27,470
I don't think they even give a fuck. I mean you I I think you have to really you can't just slowly boil the toad

1648
01:39:27,709 --> 01:39:31,470
We need like five percent on your I think we need to really hurt people

1649
01:39:31,550 --> 01:39:37,970
I think people need to be hurt dramatically like we need to have but but but also there's another like actual like verifiable

1650
01:39:38,590 --> 01:39:46,110
adoption happening that is actually passive like I think the example of square is tremendous because you've got millions of merchants out there with

1651
01:39:46,590 --> 01:39:48,590
square point of sale systems

1652
01:39:48,590 --> 01:39:52,190
That just had this feature turned on whether they wanted it or not

1653
01:39:52,989 --> 01:39:54,669
We're just saying it's putting the car before the board

1654
01:39:54,669 --> 01:39:56,749
but the point is when you compare that to

1655
01:39:57,309 --> 01:40:03,790
Bitpay and these other companies that had to like build this thing grassroots and try to actually get people to sign on

1656
01:40:04,029 --> 01:40:08,669
I think we're already at a very much further stage as far as adoption goes

1657
01:40:09,069 --> 01:40:15,709
So I feel like all this hand wringing is not even acknowledging like where we are today versus just a few years ago

1658
01:40:16,669 --> 01:40:23,010
Well, I think the other thing I mean a lot of what's holding bitcoin back or had held bitcoin back in the past is regulatory

1659
01:40:24,270 --> 01:40:28,830
You know like a fear right? And so now that you have, you know, some

1660
01:40:30,090 --> 01:40:36,270
Regulatory arbitrage with things like spark and you can't have users who download a trustodial lightning wallet

1661
01:40:36,350 --> 01:40:39,229
That is kind of skirting regulations and able to pay

1662
01:40:39,949 --> 01:40:43,949
You know people uh that paid merchants that are being enabled by lightning

1663
01:40:43,949 --> 01:40:47,869
I mean the whole thing kind of kicks off when you start skirting the regulators, right?

1664
01:40:48,430 --> 01:40:50,430
And I think that's ultimately what we're doing

1665
01:40:50,669 --> 01:40:56,830
I don't want to figure out these these avenues to skirt the regulators, but things with ux that actually works for end users

1666
01:40:57,789 --> 01:41:03,949
So like square and bitpay those as people because this is weird because this like this conversation goes in like a big circle

1667
01:41:04,190 --> 01:41:08,110
Where it's kind of like square and bitpay those are much better than nothing

1668
01:41:08,589 --> 01:41:12,749
But those are worse than real adoption. So I was i'm imagining real adoption

1669
01:41:12,749 --> 01:41:16,770
I'm saying like okay, there's like some people who adopt it. They're tech enthusiasts

1670
01:41:17,229 --> 01:41:19,229
They're the darknet market people

1671
01:41:19,229 --> 01:41:24,270
Of them merchants nearby us and we tell them how to actually then and then you get your francis puyo

1672
01:41:24,350 --> 01:41:28,270
And he builds a circular economy somehow directly with them, right?

1673
01:41:28,990 --> 01:41:30,990
You know

1674
01:41:31,789 --> 01:41:33,789
So

1675
01:41:34,270 --> 01:41:39,550
There's a channel here in brazil of a guy that literally did this kind of thing, you know

1676
01:41:39,789 --> 01:41:46,830
He went to people actual random people and teach them how to use bitcoin like kind of like roger very thing did probably

1677
01:41:47,389 --> 01:41:49,389
um, but then

1678
01:41:49,550 --> 01:41:50,350
um

1679
01:41:50,350 --> 01:41:53,309
I once thought about oh, it could be cool to do something like that

1680
01:41:53,389 --> 01:41:55,949
But then I started thinking like in today's bitcoin

1681
01:41:56,830 --> 01:42:00,910
actually doing that sounds like really really painful because uh,

1682
01:42:01,070 --> 01:42:07,149
I I have lived through like the the Argonauts craze of high fees and whatnot and I remember trying to do

1683
01:42:07,389 --> 01:42:11,789
Uh, and like that that's uh, it's very easy. It's very easy today

1684
01:42:11,869 --> 01:42:15,309
what wallet do I even say to them to use because like if I said

1685
01:42:18,350 --> 01:42:20,350
Here's the thing so I mean you

1686
01:42:20,749 --> 01:42:25,869
You can initially you send them to use a trust audio wallet like a spark wallet

1687
01:42:26,509 --> 01:42:28,830
Right, and maybe the trade-offs are shitty

1688
01:42:29,470 --> 01:42:32,430
If you are having a million dollars stored in that wallet

1689
01:42:32,589 --> 01:42:37,470
But it's not a big deal if you have a few bucks worth of bitcoin stored there like who cares

1690
01:42:37,869 --> 01:42:40,589
if a few bucks of bitcoin ends up getting rugged because

1691
01:42:41,229 --> 01:42:46,509
Spark providers are coordinating and who's gonna who's gonna teach them to to do this

1692
01:42:46,830 --> 01:42:48,830
Uh, you don't need to teach them anything

1693
01:42:48,909 --> 01:42:51,949
That's the whole point the ux of spark is you download a wallet?

1694
01:42:51,949 --> 01:42:57,330
You can literally start to receive bitcoin over lightning immediately with no inbound liquidity constraints

1695
01:42:57,949 --> 01:42:59,949
Everything just works and you can pay

1696
01:43:00,349 --> 01:43:01,389
Lightning

1697
01:43:01,389 --> 01:43:05,469
But it is though because it's still paying atomic. So, you know, if you don't open a channel

1698
01:43:06,430 --> 01:43:08,189
No, it is because

1699
01:43:08,189 --> 01:43:11,229
Paul, I mean, I don't think you understand spark and that's okay

1700
01:43:12,030 --> 01:43:16,930
But the whole point is that you are now in a state chain sharing a UTXO

1701
01:43:17,550 --> 01:43:24,349
And then you're and then on the on the back end you're swapping your UTXOs atomically with htlc's pay lightning invoices

1702
01:43:24,669 --> 01:43:28,590
So ultimately under the hood everything's still happening on bitcoin

1703
01:43:29,069 --> 01:43:34,509
Right, you're still paying htlc's and paying ln invoices from your spark wallet and then

1704
01:43:35,150 --> 01:43:38,509
On chain, you are sharing a UTXO with all the other spark users

1705
01:43:38,990 --> 01:43:42,590
So, I mean everything's it's like it's not like it's like fugazi, right?

1706
01:43:42,590 --> 01:43:48,509
I mean, it's real now whether it's trust trusted or trust minimized. No, of course not, right?

1707
01:43:48,590 --> 01:43:49,789
There's trade-offs

1708
01:43:49,789 --> 01:43:55,870
But for a an entry user for someone who just wants an easy ux and you're just trying to sell them on bitcoin

1709
01:43:55,870 --> 01:44:01,729
You're saying hey look here is bitcoin. Here's a wallet where you can download you don't need to kyc

1710
01:44:02,110 --> 01:44:08,449
You don't need to sign up for an account. You literally just fucking download this wallet. You can receive bitcoin immediately

1711
01:44:09,069 --> 01:44:12,110
Both on chain and over lightning it comes

1712
01:44:12,189 --> 01:44:16,289
It's a single unified balance and you can pay ln invoices

1713
01:44:16,590 --> 01:44:22,669
If you're trying to buy thing buy a coffee at a square merchant, you can pay somebody who says hey pay me on chain

1714
01:44:22,909 --> 01:44:28,270
Right, I mean like that's kind of that's kind of the point right it gets the toes wet. It's easy to download

1715
01:44:29,389 --> 01:44:32,430
That's great. It's it's partially trustodial, right and I get it

1716
01:44:32,509 --> 01:44:36,030
I'm, not i'm not trying to deny that it has that it doesn't have trade-offs

1717
01:44:36,430 --> 01:44:41,789
But the ux is there and then you know, maybe they get interested. Maybe they actually start saving in bitcoin

1718
01:44:41,870 --> 01:44:46,349
Maybe they start using it and then that's where they become more of a sovereign user and you know that

1719
01:44:46,750 --> 01:44:48,750
hopefully at that point they would

1720
01:44:48,830 --> 01:44:52,909
Take bitcoin they've earned or saved at a certain threshold on chain

1721
01:44:53,789 --> 01:44:57,150
but but I think the ux in terms of onboarding people is is

1722
01:44:57,949 --> 01:45:01,789
Getting much much better and it's almost even there already with

1723
01:45:02,669 --> 01:45:04,669
these newer

1724
01:45:04,669 --> 01:45:06,669
things like spark

1725
01:45:06,909 --> 01:45:12,590
Right and and then I mean, you know, everyone has a fucking in america. So like most people you can just be like, oh, yeah

1726
01:45:12,669 --> 01:45:18,349
Here's cash app like you didn't notice that little bitcoin symbol there. You can buy bitcoin on cash app, right?

1727
01:45:18,590 --> 01:45:19,469
I've

1728
01:45:19,469 --> 01:45:20,509
You know

1729
01:45:20,509 --> 01:45:22,909
most of the friends i've onboarded into bitcoin

1730
01:45:23,870 --> 01:45:26,509
Just started onboarding through cash app because they already had cash app

1731
01:45:26,909 --> 01:45:33,629
Whenever we would go out and get like lunch together and they would pay the bill. I'd literally just send them sats on cash app

1732
01:45:34,590 --> 01:45:38,750
And then they've built a little satoshi balance on cash app. They realize oh

1733
01:45:39,550 --> 01:45:41,389
That's gone up in value

1734
01:45:41,389 --> 01:45:44,110
And then I start orange filling them and say yeah, you should start saving in it

1735
01:45:44,590 --> 01:45:47,310
Saving it and then maybe a year later. They say wait

1736
01:45:48,189 --> 01:45:50,189
Like, you know

1737
01:45:50,270 --> 01:45:54,590
This has gone up way more in value. Why is that and I say because bitcoin is valuable

1738
01:45:54,669 --> 01:45:57,389
You should probably think about taking it in self-custody

1739
01:45:57,550 --> 01:46:02,509
I mean, but you need to have these on ramps and I think a lot of the times most normies need

1740
01:46:03,150 --> 01:46:04,409
easy

1741
01:46:04,409 --> 01:46:06,409
accessible ux

1742
01:46:06,430 --> 01:46:08,250
And that is mostly

1743
01:46:08,250 --> 01:46:14,430
Available. I agree with all the custodians and through, you know, trust odial arrangements like spark

1744
01:46:15,389 --> 01:46:20,270
I mean, I agree with all that the problem is when the problem is only so many people can jump

1745
01:46:21,629 --> 01:46:26,830
Go ahead. The problem is only very few people can jump to the next stage and when they do then they're going to think well

1746
01:46:26,830 --> 01:46:31,469
I guess this doesn't work. Well, I mean, I I think when they jump to the next stage

1747
01:46:32,030 --> 01:46:34,030
I would hope that uh

1748
01:46:35,150 --> 01:46:38,990
Well, I mean, I guess you're saying only so many people can do we activate covenants

1749
01:46:39,629 --> 01:46:40,830
Jump to the

1750
01:46:40,830 --> 01:46:46,990
To these the the non-custodial stage taking it on chain. Yeah, many people there is a very high amount

1751
01:46:47,229 --> 01:46:50,349
I don't know the relative proportion, but there is a high amount of

1752
01:46:50,909 --> 01:46:52,590
demand for

1753
01:46:52,590 --> 01:46:54,590
sovereign transactions

1754
01:46:54,990 --> 01:46:58,110
I mean, absolutely. I think all that demand is being met

1755
01:46:59,070 --> 01:47:00,190
you know

1756
01:47:00,190 --> 01:47:06,110
Right because we're uh, well, um, I don't think so. I mean I find that um

1757
01:47:07,070 --> 01:47:12,269
It's okay, can I jump I disagree because right now when you look

1758
01:47:13,310 --> 01:47:18,029
Oh, I I got a notification that someone who blocked me has joined as a speaker. Okay

1759
01:47:18,909 --> 01:47:24,029
So if if you look at coin market cap today, you're gonna see that bitcoin is at 54

1760
01:47:25,130 --> 01:47:28,589
Dominance, which means that half of the market is in something else

1761
01:47:29,070 --> 01:47:36,349
And when we're having these conversations we're ignoring that something else and we're assuming that it's just casinos and gambling and shit coins

1762
01:47:36,750 --> 01:47:43,149
but the fact that matters right here is that ethereum for example has a hundred thousand bitcoin wrapped on it as

1763
01:47:43,610 --> 01:47:49,789
Wbtc and it's larger than lightning larger than liquid larger than arc and spark and whatever

1764
01:47:50,349 --> 01:47:52,909
There is under the sun and I don't hear anyone

1765
01:47:53,390 --> 01:47:57,409
tweeting about it and virtue signaling about having made a payment with wbtc

1766
01:47:58,370 --> 01:48:03,329
Or having used it, but there's a hundred thousand wbtc out there people use it for that fight

1767
01:48:04,209 --> 01:48:07,409
They use it for a lot of use cases that bitcoin does not enable

1768
01:48:08,050 --> 01:48:11,969
and if you change your perspective and you take a step back and you

1769
01:48:12,450 --> 01:48:16,709
My my cat is going crazy right now, but if you change your perspective

1770
01:48:17,409 --> 01:48:20,610
You're going to realize that okay, you can

1771
01:48:21,010 --> 01:48:26,769
Regard everything else as a shit coin or you can think that there are sidechains with their own tokens

1772
01:48:27,169 --> 01:48:32,529
And whatever we fail to do in terms of user experience in terms of scaling in terms of features

1773
01:48:32,930 --> 01:48:34,610
You're gonna find it in

1774
01:48:34,610 --> 01:48:41,190
At least the 20 altcoins that keep coming back every cycle. You can argue that of course, there's a lot of speculation

1775
01:48:41,890 --> 01:48:45,810
They're not performing as well as bitcoin, even though I disagree for the past two years

1776
01:48:45,810 --> 01:48:50,370
You can see that monero and Zcash have been performing much better than bitcoin

1777
01:48:50,769 --> 01:48:54,849
If you zoom out even further, you're going to see that tron has been outperforming bitcoin

1778
01:48:56,610 --> 01:49:02,050
Smaller valued shit coins will offer for bitcoin at a certain time frame. I mean that's been happening forever

1779
01:49:02,209 --> 01:49:09,490
That certain time frame is longer than five years. I think you should reassess your assumptions, which one okay, but which which coin

1780
01:49:10,289 --> 01:49:12,289
Had had this happen for five years

1781
01:49:13,250 --> 01:49:15,250
Tron I think

1782
01:49:16,050 --> 01:49:19,890
Tron with tether on it, right? I mean tron. I think we're talking about the future also

1783
01:49:20,209 --> 01:49:24,050
I think it's a mistake to say like, you know what I mean? Like this is what they said about

1784
01:49:25,089 --> 01:49:27,329
the fall of rome or the titanic they said

1785
01:49:28,130 --> 01:49:32,370
They said rome has stood for a thousand years and you guys really think you're going to sack the city and then they eventually

1786
01:49:32,370 --> 01:49:39,490
Detect the city. So I think i'd like to go back to wicked's point about all the darknet market demand being met

1787
01:49:40,289 --> 01:49:46,370
And i'm sure this has changed a lot but a long time ago back when you can look up it was whenever us gdp was something

1788
01:49:46,370 --> 01:49:48,370
like 15 17 trillion

1789
01:49:49,089 --> 01:49:51,729
Someone tried to measure all the the dark

1790
01:49:52,289 --> 01:49:55,490
like the gray market transactions of the world and a lot of these are

1791
01:49:55,969 --> 01:49:57,729
dark or gray because

1792
01:49:57,729 --> 01:50:02,690
Of just lack of banking infrastructure, but at that time it was the second largest economy in the world

1793
01:50:03,169 --> 01:50:05,169
If you added up every country's

1794
01:50:06,029 --> 01:50:07,409
informal

1795
01:50:07,490 --> 01:50:09,089
It was 10 trillion

1796
01:50:09,089 --> 01:50:13,570
and that made it the second largest now, obviously it's a lot has changed since then and there's a

1797
01:50:14,450 --> 01:50:16,450
chinese communist party television

1798
01:50:17,250 --> 01:50:19,250
Cameras everywhere watching us

1799
01:50:19,250 --> 01:50:21,169
And everyone has mobile phones and stuff

1800
01:50:21,329 --> 01:50:26,849
so I don't know exactly how those have changed but I think there actually is an enormous if you go all around the like

1801
01:50:27,570 --> 01:50:28,690
I just

1802
01:50:28,690 --> 01:50:30,690
read a story last week about

1803
01:50:31,969 --> 01:50:36,529
I think it was like, um, I think it's maybe in northern africa or something. I'm not sure where but

1804
01:50:37,649 --> 01:50:39,649
and parts of india

1805
01:50:39,969 --> 01:50:46,529
People they because there's a a cultural norm where you're if you make a lot of money your family just

1806
01:50:47,810 --> 01:50:52,209
Comes to you for a handout. Basically. Some people will pay they pay their employer 25

1807
01:50:53,089 --> 01:50:58,610
To like put their money into like a secret the money that the wage they earn into like a secret account

1808
01:50:59,409 --> 01:51:01,409
so I think I think the

1809
01:51:01,890 --> 01:51:02,849
We

1810
01:51:02,849 --> 01:51:07,409
Governments all around the world are all pretty incompetent. So we've got a lot of incompetent governments

1811
01:51:07,490 --> 01:51:12,130
We've got a lot of greedy governments. We've got a lot of corrupt governments. So I the u.s dollar

1812
01:51:13,010 --> 01:51:14,930
is probably

1813
01:51:14,930 --> 01:51:19,490
This is you know, it's hard to say because they're all so different but probably the u.s dollar

1814
01:51:19,570 --> 01:51:22,450
Well, we oh he's not here anymore. Who's the guy talking? He was great

1815
01:51:22,690 --> 01:51:29,089
Um, he's not here anymore though the uh, but the u.s dollar is probably the best run currency out of them all

1816
01:51:29,329 --> 01:51:33,169
Here's the guy saying you gotta wait. Yeah, daniel a br or whatever

1817
01:51:34,209 --> 01:51:35,169
um

1818
01:51:35,169 --> 01:51:39,570
the and so he yeah, and probably the u.s dollar, you know will collapse but

1819
01:51:40,370 --> 01:51:45,570
Uh, it might not because the u.s government the u.s society. We we our entrepreneurs are just so good

1820
01:51:45,570 --> 01:51:47,570
We got like elon musk and stuff in america

1821
01:51:47,649 --> 01:51:53,490
So we have like a fighting chance, but but of course like yeah, like what the russian ruble the euro the chinese

1822
01:51:54,349 --> 01:51:57,990
Currency the like what in japan isn't like a democratic

1823
01:52:00,529 --> 01:52:05,969
It's like they're all really bad I think I think you would agree that like it's more likely those other

1824
01:52:06,930 --> 01:52:14,709
Fiat's from those other countries would collapse before the usd, right? Yeah, I would agree. Yes. Do you think while those currencies are collapsing?

1825
01:52:15,329 --> 01:52:17,490
um those governments would

1826
01:52:18,450 --> 01:52:25,490
Try to make a new currency adopt dollars or just adopt a cryptocurrency like bitcoin

1827
01:52:26,930 --> 01:52:32,930
Or or I think adopt a gold-backed currency or something ridiculous like that when these fiat currencies collapse

1828
01:52:33,089 --> 01:52:37,729
I think I think no one really knows because I think it's very different

1829
01:52:37,729 --> 01:52:41,890
We could look you the people wrote books about fast past currency collapses

1830
01:52:42,529 --> 01:52:44,050
um

1831
01:52:44,050 --> 01:52:50,610
And of course normally what happens in the modern quote modern time like, you know after world war ii

1832
01:52:51,089 --> 01:52:53,510
Normally, they would it would be like dollarization

1833
01:52:54,450 --> 01:52:58,930
And people would adopt the dollar to some extent or they do some other desperate thing, you know

1834
01:52:59,490 --> 01:53:05,430
But since we're now in this digital internet world, I think it's really really really confusing

1835
01:53:06,450 --> 01:53:07,409
and

1836
01:53:07,409 --> 01:53:10,310
I have no idea what might would they adopt usdt?

1837
01:53:11,010 --> 01:53:16,690
Would they make their own but you would think if the fiat currency is collapsing that would come at a time when the

1838
01:53:16,930 --> 01:53:23,029
Public has decided that they don't trust the government anymore. So I would think the government's attempt to coordinate

1839
01:53:24,209 --> 01:53:27,649
That would probably not I would just say that would probably not work if they could do that

1840
01:53:27,729 --> 01:53:32,849
Then they would do they would save their own system. So and I I have no idea like which one

1841
01:53:33,409 --> 01:53:35,409
Don't ultimately go to the people

1842
01:53:35,890 --> 01:53:38,370
And each country is very different, of course, you know

1843
01:53:38,370 --> 01:53:43,570
You got to consider that countries are just of course very different cultures very different everything

1844
01:53:43,649 --> 01:53:45,649
so so then do the people

1845
01:53:45,969 --> 01:53:49,570
Do the people at that point adopt dollars or do they adopt?

1846
01:53:53,329 --> 01:53:55,329
Yeah, that's that's definitely

1847
01:53:55,969 --> 01:53:59,810
That's what usually happens. So that's what so that's why I was starting to bring that up

1848
01:53:59,890 --> 01:54:03,969
But of course, um if they adopt a crypt if they wanted to adopt a cryptocurrency

1849
01:54:04,050 --> 01:54:05,969
I don't know how they would decide

1850
01:54:05,969 --> 01:54:12,209
Which one well, they do adopt. I don't know if they would be comfortable like probably pick the largest one with the most network effect

1851
01:54:13,010 --> 01:54:18,050
Yeah, well, they might they might decide like I don't want to put our all of our my faith

1852
01:54:18,130 --> 01:54:21,010
This is a complete and total speculation. I'm just totally making this up

1853
01:54:21,010 --> 01:54:24,130
Then we can go to bitcoin anon who had his hand up for a long time

1854
01:54:25,010 --> 01:54:28,370
Um, but this is i'm just totally this is totally made up on my part

1855
01:54:28,370 --> 01:54:30,849
But I can see them saying hey, listen if we go to btc

1856
01:54:31,729 --> 01:54:37,250
Um, then we'll be beholden to strike and square and then and then

1857
01:54:37,810 --> 01:54:42,289
Whereas if we go to something like solana, they'll go to like a large block chain or something

1858
01:54:42,370 --> 01:54:46,849
I know it sounds funny right but I can see it kind of weirdly happening. I don't think they'd be

1859
01:54:47,890 --> 01:54:54,289
That no, I don't know or god forbid bsv or something. I'm just this is just totally theoretical here

1860
01:54:54,370 --> 01:54:58,610
I realize that it's all just but they would want something they would they would weigh they would say

1861
01:54:59,490 --> 01:55:01,490
Square versus

1862
01:55:01,649 --> 01:55:06,769
You know a full node that costs forty thousand dollars a year to run or something and they would say well, maybe

1863
01:55:07,409 --> 01:55:09,649
All right, we could go to bitcoin anon now, I guess

1864
01:55:10,450 --> 01:55:11,490
I think

1865
01:55:11,490 --> 01:55:17,409
The people the people trying to escape those collapsing fiat currencies probably wouldn't care about running nodes

1866
01:55:17,729 --> 01:55:22,130
And they would just be looking for whatever had them anyways bitcoin anonymous

1867
01:55:23,010 --> 01:55:26,849
Yeah, this was for daniel, but he left the stage, but i'm sure that other people can answer it

1868
01:55:27,409 --> 01:55:30,610
So this was great. Oh, you're back. No

1869
01:55:31,170 --> 01:55:33,170
No, that's brian. Okay

1870
01:55:33,650 --> 01:55:37,809
Um, so the whole economic node non-economic node thing i'm trying to understand the weight of them

1871
01:55:38,370 --> 01:55:43,569
Come mandatory signaling I could imagine say someone like coinbase saying hey, we're shutting down

1872
01:55:44,030 --> 01:55:47,569
Purchasing and selling temporarily you can't log in for a moment

1873
01:55:47,890 --> 01:55:51,010
This is this is to protect our users at that point

1874
01:55:51,250 --> 01:55:56,449
They stop being an economic node because there's no transactions going through them at that point

1875
01:55:56,770 --> 01:55:57,569
Is that correct?

1876
01:55:57,569 --> 01:56:02,309
Or is it just like if you're on the network and you have a node that typically has a lot of transactions

1877
01:56:02,849 --> 01:56:05,329
You're still an economic node or does it have to be?

1878
01:56:06,030 --> 01:56:08,049
transactions at the type

1879
01:56:08,049 --> 01:56:09,170
at the time

1880
01:56:09,170 --> 01:56:11,170
of mandatory signaling

1881
01:56:11,250 --> 01:56:15,270
I think and if you ask me it's the incoming if you how much btc you're receiving

1882
01:56:15,729 --> 01:56:18,049
Yeah, you you can solve the node for that

1883
01:56:18,370 --> 01:56:21,569
So it's kind of like a whole picture thing where it's like how much how often

1884
01:56:22,209 --> 01:56:25,089
Out of all the transacting that's that people are doing

1885
01:56:25,650 --> 01:56:27,010
on L1

1886
01:56:27,010 --> 01:56:29,809
Where the because the bitcoin core is the L1 node

1887
01:56:30,370 --> 01:56:35,890
So it's like you're using which people are so if every single transaction in the block is going to you

1888
01:56:36,610 --> 01:56:42,370
Then you're you're very much economic. No, so I would kind of say that it diminishes it, you know to some extent

1889
01:56:43,010 --> 01:56:45,589
For that but if it's only going to be one day out of 365

1890
01:56:48,929 --> 01:56:49,729
Because

1891
01:56:49,729 --> 01:56:52,209
It'd probably be about an hour at most in my opinion

1892
01:56:52,290 --> 01:56:57,969
Well, not even that but they they're the they're the nodes that process the spending of the bitcoin that sits at coinbase

1893
01:56:58,049 --> 01:57:00,049
So even if they turned off their node

1894
01:57:00,290 --> 01:57:02,929
During the like that specific block for like an hour

1895
01:57:03,410 --> 01:57:07,650
They're still massively influential in what they decide to choose as the bitcoin network

1896
01:57:08,370 --> 01:57:11,729
And continuing going forward even if their node goes offline for five blocks

1897
01:57:12,290 --> 01:57:17,490
because I think it's like a that's what I tried to convey that it's kind of like a net present value situation where

1898
01:57:18,049 --> 01:57:20,130
the expected future usage would

1899
01:57:21,490 --> 01:57:23,490
Would count I think

1900
01:57:23,650 --> 01:57:24,770
Well, it has to right?

1901
01:57:24,770 --> 01:57:27,569
It's not like if you turned off if coinbase turned off their node

1902
01:57:27,890 --> 01:57:32,049
Like with for six blocks right around this activation and then they turned it back on

1903
01:57:32,130 --> 01:57:35,890
It's not like they no longer were an economic node. They were the entire time because they're the

1904
01:57:36,689 --> 01:57:38,689
Process their UTXOs. Yeah

1905
01:57:38,849 --> 01:57:44,370
because you can say you can imagine say okay, i'm gonna I start a bitcoin core and then I announce to the world I say

1906
01:57:45,329 --> 01:57:48,130
Well, hey i'm about to i'm about to accept

1907
01:57:49,010 --> 01:57:51,410
You know, i'm like a new version of bitpay or something

1908
01:57:51,410 --> 01:57:55,010
I'm about to accept tons and tons of bitcoin transactions starting next week

1909
01:57:55,569 --> 01:57:59,809
And I prefer this I think we should invalidate block on this or whatever

1910
01:58:00,449 --> 01:58:01,650
that would still

1911
01:58:01,650 --> 01:58:03,650
That would still count so it's not

1912
01:58:04,929 --> 01:58:06,929
I would agree that it

1913
01:58:07,809 --> 01:58:10,689
That the the measurement of how much economic influence you have

1914
01:58:11,969 --> 01:58:13,969
includes the imminent

1915
01:58:14,770 --> 01:58:18,689
So bitcoin anon, um, I mean one thing to

1916
01:58:19,329 --> 01:58:21,329
realize is that

1917
01:58:21,729 --> 01:58:23,809
all of these exchanges are

1918
01:58:25,329 --> 01:58:27,510
You know prepared to deal with

1919
01:58:28,428 --> 01:58:30,428
uh

1920
01:58:30,588 --> 01:58:34,508
Shallow reorgs, right? So if you have like a block or two reorg

1921
01:58:35,228 --> 01:58:36,668
They're they're

1922
01:58:36,668 --> 01:58:40,988
Prepared to do this. They have you know protocols around this. That's why they require a certain amount of

1923
01:58:41,848 --> 01:58:44,208
confirmations before they accept deposits

1924
01:58:44,908 --> 01:58:49,788
And why they also tell their customers to wait a certain amount of confirmations for the withdrawals, right?

1925
01:58:50,588 --> 01:58:55,387
And so any disruption that may happen in those first few blocks

1926
01:58:56,108 --> 01:58:58,108
after mandatory signaling begins

1927
01:58:58,508 --> 01:59:00,508
I think they're already prepared to handle

1928
01:59:00,908 --> 01:59:02,428
the only way

1929
01:59:02,428 --> 01:59:04,428
Where there's massive disruption

1930
01:59:04,988 --> 01:59:06,988
in my opinion is if you have

1931
01:59:07,527 --> 01:59:10,187
comparable hash rate between the two chains

1932
01:59:11,067 --> 01:59:13,308
at the time of mandatory signaling like if you have

1933
01:59:14,008 --> 01:59:20,187
45 percent 55 percent that type of thing where it's much more likely that reorgs happen and

1934
01:59:20,748 --> 01:59:23,547
You know, it's possible that a deeper reorg could happen even

1935
01:59:24,268 --> 01:59:26,187
That's when you start getting problems

1936
01:59:26,187 --> 01:59:28,108
and you would have

1937
01:59:28,108 --> 01:59:30,108
these exchanges probably

1938
01:59:30,588 --> 01:59:32,027
shut down

1939
01:59:32,027 --> 01:59:35,548
uh their deposits and withdrawals and help things resolve themselves, but

1940
01:59:36,347 --> 01:59:37,868
all that to say

1941
01:59:37,868 --> 01:59:40,267
If the hash rate stays the way it is

1942
01:59:40,987 --> 01:59:45,707
Or even if it were to pick up a notch, like let's say you get the 10 percent hash rate

1943
01:59:46,487 --> 01:59:51,728
Signaling versus 90 percent not signaling. I don't think that that would necessarily

1944
01:59:51,807 --> 01:59:53,167
Really

1945
01:59:53,167 --> 01:59:58,127
Affect the day-to-day operations of these exchanges. I don't even think they would shut down their

1946
01:59:58,688 --> 02:00:04,048
Deposits, they might increase the confirmation times a little bit, but they might I mean they might instead of six

1947
02:00:04,048 --> 02:00:05,567
They're waiting for seven or something, you know

1948
02:00:05,567 --> 02:00:10,847
it's like I don't think it would really make much of a difference and the reason why is because

1949
02:00:11,567 --> 02:00:16,368
Even at 10 percent 90 percent which you know again, that would be a 10x increase in

1950
02:00:17,008 --> 02:00:19,008
hash rate signaling

1951
02:00:19,008 --> 02:00:21,008
But even at that rate

1952
02:00:21,008 --> 02:00:25,008
Um, it is incredibly unlikely that you even get one reorg

1953
02:00:25,648 --> 02:00:29,088
Right, you might get one or two at the very most

1954
02:00:29,968 --> 02:00:33,248
And then the legacy chain is going to pull ahead and stay ahead forever

1955
02:00:33,648 --> 02:00:37,487
And then there's no more disruption and that happens probably within an hour

1956
02:00:38,207 --> 02:00:42,687
Right, and it's very clear at that point that once pulled ahead because you know

1957
02:00:42,687 --> 02:00:46,228
You've gotten confirmation that the largest pools aren't single signaling

1958
02:00:46,847 --> 02:00:50,448
They've already mined blocks, right? They've already expended energy

1959
02:00:51,327 --> 02:00:56,448
But they aren't are there any other pools besides foundry that are letting uh miners signal

1960
02:00:57,567 --> 02:00:58,448
um

1961
02:00:58,448 --> 02:01:00,448
And ocean, obviously, I don't know

1962
02:01:01,808 --> 02:01:06,207
Bitcoin anon, is there any that you know of there's probably some small ones. There's got to be some small ones

1963
02:01:06,288 --> 02:01:08,607
No, i'm not hooked into that. I'm not i'm not following it

1964
02:01:09,407 --> 02:01:15,088
Yeah, the only ones i've heard of is foundry and obviously ocean, but I think even foundry

1965
02:01:15,728 --> 02:01:21,487
You know foundry is not even letting you signal they're letting you vote for the entire pool to signal

1966
02:01:22,607 --> 02:01:23,407
and

1967
02:01:23,407 --> 02:01:26,047
You know from what i've gathered

1968
02:01:27,008 --> 02:01:29,168
It seems pretty unlikely that's going to happen

1969
02:01:29,327 --> 02:01:34,767
So, you know if you are a miner and you think signaling is extremely important

1970
02:01:35,327 --> 02:01:38,127
Your only option is really to go mine with ocean

1971
02:01:39,168 --> 02:01:41,168
And mine a signaling template

1972
02:01:41,487 --> 02:01:47,107
I guess what i'm trying to get to is is economic node in your mind a technical definition or a sociological

1973
02:01:48,187 --> 02:01:54,767
Definition, it's an economic definition. It's literally just how much demand you as an entity are

1974
02:01:55,967 --> 02:01:57,567
uh

1975
02:01:57,567 --> 02:02:02,388
Are pulling into bitcoin so it's measured in a moment or a cumulative

1976
02:02:03,567 --> 02:02:04,687
uh

1977
02:02:04,687 --> 02:02:05,808
cumulative

1978
02:02:05,808 --> 02:02:07,808
Probably well, I mean listen, I think

1979
02:02:08,368 --> 02:02:13,967
No, no, it's not accumulating it's not accumulative means you're a hodler and you have all the UTXOs to dump you can only do that

1980
02:02:13,967 --> 02:02:18,368
Once it's the future demand. It's well, it's both because right if you have both

1981
02:02:18,767 --> 02:02:22,847
It's both if you have UTXOs that you can dump you can generate future demand, right?

1982
02:02:22,847 --> 02:02:26,607
I can dump a hundred thousand bitcoin that I own now

1983
02:02:27,088 --> 02:02:32,127
And then I can demand a thousand bitcoin a day for a hundred days moving forward, right?

1984
02:02:32,607 --> 02:02:35,168
But if you're also on top of that

1985
02:02:35,728 --> 02:02:43,008
A cash flow positive business that is generating 10 bitcoin a day in profits now you have 10 bitcoin a day in profit

1986
02:02:43,627 --> 02:02:47,487
Indefinitely, you know and then accounting for the change in bitcoin's price

1987
02:02:48,047 --> 02:02:54,207
But the point is like, you know, it's it's it's the accumulation or the attraction of bitcoin which matters

1988
02:02:54,767 --> 02:03:00,607
When you're talking about a contentious chain split because that is the value you're grafting on either side

1989
02:03:01,167 --> 02:03:06,767
And the value which is attracting the hash rate which is what defines bitcoin at the end of the day

1990
02:03:07,327 --> 02:03:09,327
It seems like a measure of potential

1991
02:03:10,688 --> 02:03:13,568
It's a measure of potential. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I think I agree with that

1992
02:03:13,568 --> 02:03:17,408
It's a measure of potential which is based also on

1993
02:03:18,207 --> 02:03:22,607
Um, well, sorry. No, it's a matter. It's more so a measure of kinetic

1994
02:03:23,248 --> 02:03:29,248
But your kinetic energy can also be paid based upon how much potential energy you've built up in the past, right?

1995
02:03:29,727 --> 02:03:32,848
If i've wrote if i've risen this ball up high enough

1996
02:03:33,487 --> 02:03:37,088
Because I have a bunch of potential energy ie i've saved a lot of bitcoin

1997
02:03:37,648 --> 02:03:40,047
now in a contentious chain split I can

1998
02:03:40,767 --> 02:03:43,968
You know resolve that that potential energy into kinetic

1999
02:03:44,528 --> 02:03:46,368
right, but also

2000
02:03:46,368 --> 02:03:50,287
if i'm a very successful cash flow positive business, I have

2001
02:03:50,848 --> 02:03:56,848
Constant kinetic energy coming in because I have constant demand and ongoing demand moving forward. Does that make sense?

2002
02:03:56,928 --> 02:03:58,928
Yeah, that's good

2003
02:03:59,968 --> 02:04:05,088
So this I mean so so I think I mean it's a mix right holders have a good amount of influence because they have

2004
02:04:05,088 --> 02:04:06,767
a one-off

2005
02:04:06,767 --> 02:04:10,688
You know transition from the potential to kinetic, but I think because they're rich

2006
02:04:11,248 --> 02:04:16,047
Ultimately long term what really matters? No, not because they're rich because they already bought bitcoin

2007
02:04:16,047 --> 02:04:19,808
I mean you could be rich you can't tell bitcoin if you're rich. You can only sell bitcoin if you already bought it

2008
02:04:19,808 --> 02:04:23,808
Right. And well, I mean they're rich they're rich in bitcoin terms. Yeah, sure

2009
02:04:23,887 --> 02:04:28,207
But I think ultimately what really matters in a chain split or a contentious fork

2010
02:04:28,848 --> 02:04:30,287
is

2011
02:04:30,287 --> 02:04:32,287
Whichever side has the most

2012
02:04:33,248 --> 02:04:35,248
ongoing, you know, like

2013
02:04:37,088 --> 02:04:43,487
Sustained demand right? I mean like okay, you know roger vera can split off and he can fuck with the

2014
02:04:44,047 --> 02:04:47,648
Dynamics of supply and demand for so long because he already has a bunch of bitcoin

2015
02:04:47,648 --> 02:04:49,648
He can sell one side buy the other side

2016
02:04:49,808 --> 02:04:52,688
He can keep that going and probably counteract all the real

2017
02:04:53,248 --> 02:04:59,088
Ongoing, you know perpetual demand on the other side, but it only lasts for so long and once he runs out

2018
02:04:59,648 --> 02:05:05,487
What you're left with is the other side who has real adoption and real productive

2019
02:05:08,528 --> 02:05:14,128
Users right who are demanding things ongoing and that's the side that wins in the end in my opinion

2020
02:05:15,007 --> 02:05:21,727
It shouldn't be controversial man, this is something like I mean it makes sense, right you want to have the monetary network that has the most

2021
02:05:22,368 --> 02:05:24,128
productive users

2022
02:05:24,128 --> 02:05:31,088
Sustained forever people. Yeah people back this demand they went for the longest day and and miners are obviously going to follow that chain

2023
02:05:31,167 --> 02:05:37,487
Because the token based upon all of that demand from those users is going to be what's going to be the most productive

2024
02:05:37,568 --> 02:05:40,128
Obviously going to follow that chain because the token

2025
02:05:40,528 --> 02:05:44,928
Based upon all of that demand from those users is going to be worth the most

2026
02:05:45,248 --> 02:05:48,607
Thereby making the block rewards for those miners worth the most

2027
02:05:49,248 --> 02:05:52,848
It's not that complicated. It's just a matter of you know

2028
02:05:53,648 --> 02:05:54,767
you know, like

2029
02:05:54,767 --> 02:05:56,767
think about the

2030
02:05:57,968 --> 02:06:00,368
What goes into making a block reward valuable

2031
02:06:01,007 --> 02:06:06,688
And it's it's the price and it's the fees and right now. Yeah, but it's hard for the and right now the fees are hard for

2032
02:06:06,688 --> 02:06:07,727
the one

2033
02:06:07,727 --> 02:06:09,727
It's hard for the 110 people to believe that though

2034
02:06:11,327 --> 02:06:16,928
Well, okay, we don't have to like, you know go there but like I think you know, it's like the fees are nothing so

2035
02:06:17,968 --> 02:06:21,167
Ultimately at this point in time, it's really the value of the token

2036
02:06:21,808 --> 02:06:25,007
So if you as a cohort of users want to change bitcoin

2037
02:06:25,648 --> 02:06:31,167
But you're not able to sustain a value of a token if you were to split off on your own

2038
02:06:31,727 --> 02:06:34,767
in other words if the network ignored you

2039
02:06:35,007 --> 02:06:37,568
And as a result you split off

2040
02:06:38,688 --> 02:06:43,088
What type of value could you bring to the coin of your chain split?

2041
02:06:43,887 --> 02:06:45,887
And would that be valuable enough?

2042
02:06:47,487 --> 02:06:51,727
Would it be valuable enough to divert any of the hash rate or would it be value enough

2043
02:06:52,128 --> 02:06:54,207
This software is so terrible. I can't even hear anyone now

2044
02:06:54,767 --> 02:06:56,767
I may be talking over someone

2045
02:06:57,007 --> 02:07:01,008
What is wrong with the people who made this software? I'm just going to complain. Maybe this is a sign for me to leave

2046
02:07:01,487 --> 02:07:03,248
I can't hear anything

2047
02:07:03,328 --> 02:07:05,328
You don't hear wicked

2048
02:07:07,008 --> 02:07:09,087
People talking about me I see people laughing now

2049
02:07:10,208 --> 02:07:12,368
Well, can I hear anything? Oh, do you use?

2050
02:07:12,928 --> 02:07:17,248
I'm gonna leave and rejoin then probably leave again leave and rejoin leave and rejoin. Yeah

2051
02:07:18,688 --> 02:07:22,208
Yeah leaves and come back so I can ask you why you have me blocked

2052
02:07:23,328 --> 02:07:24,128
Oh

2053
02:07:24,128 --> 02:07:26,128
interesting question brian

2054
02:07:26,688 --> 02:07:28,688
Why would anyone block you? I wonder

2055
02:07:29,568 --> 02:07:31,568
I don't know. We have each other blocked. I blocked him back

2056
02:07:32,368 --> 02:07:34,368
Let's be nice and unblock each other

2057
02:07:34,448 --> 02:07:39,647
Um bitcoin anon, uh follow-up any follow-up questions. I'll come back. I think he dropped

2058
02:07:40,847 --> 02:07:42,847
All right, paul. You hear me now

2059
02:07:45,808 --> 02:07:50,047
Probably not he doesn't hear anything. Oh, do you hear wicked?

2060
02:07:51,647 --> 02:07:55,008
Can you hear me now paul paul be alert

2061
02:07:55,008 --> 02:07:57,008
Sure

2062
02:07:57,407 --> 02:07:59,407
Fly go call your boy in the phone

2063
02:08:01,167 --> 02:08:03,167
We can hear you yes

2064
02:08:04,047 --> 02:08:06,607
I can hear you loud and clear bro. No, I don't think so

2065
02:08:08,847 --> 02:08:10,847
You can't hear us

2066
02:08:10,928 --> 02:08:15,008
He can't hear me. So he responds. No, I can't hear you. I can't hear you

2067
02:08:15,568 --> 02:08:18,607
That's um, no, that's good. I think I made sense

2068
02:08:19,167 --> 02:08:23,248
He probably saw our mics were unmuted and then said no, I don't think so. That makes sense to me

2069
02:08:23,487 --> 02:08:25,808
Uh, okay. Um

2070
02:08:27,647 --> 02:08:29,647
Well anyways

2071
02:08:30,527 --> 02:08:37,407
We I think we had moved on from discussing, you know, anything he was interested in anyways because it went on to a

2072
02:08:38,287 --> 02:08:40,287
more of a back to before

2073
02:08:40,688 --> 02:08:44,527
But that's something he should be he should be interested in right because like I mean

2074
02:08:44,928 --> 02:08:49,248
We're working too. So we're getting two airdrops this season, right? We're this is the summer of air

2075
02:08:49,808 --> 02:08:54,368
When we're getting in the room, we're not we're not when does ballpoint activate

2076
02:08:55,487 --> 02:08:57,487
It's uh one month from now

2077
02:08:59,167 --> 02:09:05,407
No, well, there's definitely gonna be an airdrop there's definitely gonna be two airdrops one might have value the other one most likely won't

2078
02:09:06,047 --> 02:09:08,047
But there's definitely two airdrops

2079
02:09:13,008 --> 02:09:18,768
No, no 110 if he lowers the difficulty low enough eventually incentivize the miners

2080
02:09:19,568 --> 02:09:21,328
um

2081
02:09:21,328 --> 02:09:28,047
But first before that what has to happen is that uh, when what is it first september to seventh september?

2082
02:09:28,128 --> 02:09:34,208
I think something like that. No, it's gonna fork off in about probably on august 8th when mandatory signal begins

2083
02:09:35,647 --> 02:09:40,287
Okay, what about paul's thing? What about paul what block height does your fork begin?

2084
02:09:40,847 --> 02:09:45,087
Yeah, when is that fault point one that's near? Um, august 23rd

2085
02:09:45,967 --> 02:09:49,967
Oh interesting, okay, so so we're getting two in one month. Fuck. Yeah, man

2086
02:09:51,248 --> 02:09:55,008
Prior to yours probably about three weeks two to three weeks prior

2087
02:09:55,808 --> 02:09:58,607
Sure, maybe maybe I missed in 2017

2088
02:09:58,607 --> 02:10:04,847
I think there's also a possibility that we're gonna see that scenario with SegWit2x and bitcoin cash playing out once again

2089
02:10:05,248 --> 02:10:10,768
Which means that there is gonna be two forks, but in the end they both merge into one

2090
02:10:11,407 --> 02:10:15,727
And I think that there's a non-zero possibility that the knots people are going to realize that

2091
02:10:16,208 --> 02:10:18,768
They don't have a market. They don't have any future plan

2092
02:10:20,368 --> 02:10:23,248
From core. Yeah, so they would just merge into

2093
02:10:25,647 --> 02:10:27,647
That's

2094
02:10:41,328 --> 02:10:44,847
Developer for eCash. He's helping paul. He helped paul do eCash

2095
02:10:46,287 --> 02:10:49,087
I said b. He said b cash not eCash. No, no

2096
02:10:50,527 --> 02:10:54,128
Paul paul hired luke to help him on

2097
02:10:54,688 --> 02:10:59,967
Drivechains like he already hired him. Uh after he after he lost those coins

2098
02:11:00,527 --> 02:11:06,847
Yeah, so I did so at this point luke. It will be very hireable after this fail. So oh, maybe

2099
02:11:07,808 --> 02:11:11,328
Back on the market, I didn't think of that. No, I think we all know that

2100
02:11:13,888 --> 02:11:15,888
Okay

2101
02:11:18,128 --> 02:11:21,167
Who is this brian wants to be unblocked who wants to be unblocked brian brian

2102
02:11:21,407 --> 02:11:25,328
I don't know. I mean, I don't know why I don't know man. I blocked you because you blocked me

2103
02:11:27,888 --> 02:11:30,527
I almost normally I will only block someone if they

2104
02:11:31,087 --> 02:11:35,967
Either for a good reason which or or if they usually when I block people's because they block me and I just think fine

2105
02:11:36,448 --> 02:11:38,448
You're blocking me then i'll just block you back. I just think

2106
02:11:39,328 --> 02:11:43,727
So there we go. I unblocked you you unblocked me if we decide to change minds, then we can yeah, we can

2107
02:11:45,167 --> 02:11:47,167
There we go

2108
02:11:47,487 --> 02:11:50,208
Look at that. We made some progress here. You see we're merging chains

2109
02:11:50,607 --> 02:11:53,167
Okay, and I definitely agree with the wicked the mandatory signaling

2110
02:11:53,167 --> 02:11:57,888
No one's going to signal because signaling that not signaling is first of all the easiest thing to do

2111
02:11:58,448 --> 02:12:01,808
And second of all they no one really actually cares. Yeah, exactly

2112
02:12:01,967 --> 02:12:07,568
And why would they go out on a limb so it will be august 8th and then it'll be august 9th that they decide to like

2113
02:12:08,607 --> 02:12:10,607
I mean presumably they will just

2114
02:12:11,008 --> 02:12:13,888
Well, they'll have to put out something that has either proof of work change

2115
02:12:19,008 --> 02:12:22,128
The question is will they do it immediately or will they say like oh this is gonna happen

2116
02:12:23,487 --> 02:12:26,688
I don't think that's gonna be the case. I think the whole point of this is a hijacked network

2117
02:12:26,768 --> 02:12:29,727
I don't think the point of this is to create another altcoin. I think they want

2118
02:12:30,047 --> 02:12:32,287
That's why the threshold was set at 55

2119
02:12:33,008 --> 02:12:35,008
They're trying to coerce the pools in america

2120
02:12:35,487 --> 02:12:41,568
To to get that threshold and then they want to hijack the network. They don't want to split off. That's never the plan

2121
02:12:42,368 --> 02:12:46,208
It's an interesting, uh theory, but I don't think so. I think it's normal to set the low

2122
02:12:46,847 --> 02:12:48,768
the threshold near 51

2123
02:12:48,768 --> 02:12:50,768
really because

2124
02:12:51,087 --> 02:12:54,688
Because otherwise you create toxic limbo, I mean I could elaborate on that everything

2125
02:12:54,688 --> 02:13:00,928
But I I think if you look at how emotional they are, they seem very emotional. Don't they like we've we've heard like, you know

2126
02:13:01,008 --> 02:13:03,008
Lots of like

2127
02:13:03,328 --> 02:13:07,808
Build cohesion you need to be nicer to your future supporters. Yeah, that's your future

2128
02:13:14,287 --> 02:13:19,967
You know, it's funny because we are very similar in that we both think that core is corrupt so we should be

2129
02:13:20,208 --> 02:13:21,888
I know exactly

2130
02:13:21,888 --> 02:13:28,047
There was udi was on there was udi on the call. He hated bitcoin core. You had the bit one tenor. Yeah, he they hate

2131
02:13:29,727 --> 02:13:33,167
Um, you also had uh, um hunter hunter beast

2132
02:13:33,328 --> 02:13:39,087
He doesn't like bitcoin core because they completely ignored him and and his fixed for quantum. Yeah, so like you had a

2133
02:13:46,847 --> 02:13:49,328
Minority forks that we all hate bitcoin core

2134
02:13:49,727 --> 02:13:52,368
So you should all band together and become like a fucking

2135
02:14:00,368 --> 02:14:02,368
It would be better off with me I think

2136
02:14:02,928 --> 02:14:03,568
I mean

2137
02:14:03,568 --> 02:14:08,607
I just kind of blow my mind when you think of like all the people to lead a movement and then it's luke dash

2138
02:14:08,607 --> 02:14:10,607
jr with this crazy post about

2139
02:14:10,768 --> 02:14:12,287
eating pets and

2140
02:14:12,287 --> 02:14:14,287
galileo was wrong to say the son

2141
02:14:14,768 --> 02:14:15,967
Goes

2142
02:14:15,967 --> 02:14:17,407
and it's like any

2143
02:14:17,407 --> 02:14:23,407
Masturbation is a terrible sin arguably worse than murder and you're just like is this for real? Like is this like a fake?

2144
02:14:24,508 --> 02:14:31,808
Controversy that we like every now and then people just put out like a as a test. They see will the will the bitcoin community. Oh, no, man

2145
02:14:33,167 --> 02:14:35,167
He believes everything

2146
02:14:35,167 --> 02:14:39,248
I know, you know, I know it too. Well when big one ten fails

2147
02:14:39,888 --> 02:14:41,888
What we do is

2148
02:14:42,047 --> 02:14:45,487
We tell luke to try building big one ten

2149
02:14:46,208 --> 02:14:47,568
as a cusp

2150
02:14:47,568 --> 02:14:52,128
And then we we have all the big one ten drama, but now on a cash

2151
02:14:54,688 --> 02:14:58,527
Well, I mean, I don't know do we need are we how much drama are we going to need at that point

2152
02:14:59,248 --> 02:15:01,248
It's probably isn't going to be

2153
02:15:02,607 --> 02:15:06,527
There there's going to be no transactions so there's going to be no spam if there if I was

2154
02:15:07,407 --> 02:15:08,287
Just

2155
02:15:08,287 --> 02:15:10,527
if osha didn't exist, I would I would

2156
02:15:11,087 --> 02:15:16,448
I would be with uh you paul and thinking that they would he would change the proof of work algorithm because that's something that he's

2157
02:15:16,448 --> 02:15:20,287
Wanted to do for a while but because ocean exists and because that's his salary

2158
02:15:20,368 --> 02:15:24,688
I just have such a hard time seeing him trying to fucking fire his own mind, you know

2159
02:15:24,688 --> 02:15:30,368
I gotta tell you i'm not gonna I don't say this often but you know, mr. Hoddle. I think that's a really good

2160
02:15:30,607 --> 02:15:34,208
That's a really good point. I hadn't considered that. I think you I think you could be onto something

2161
02:15:34,208 --> 02:15:36,208
I just don't think it's possible for him to do that

2162
02:15:37,647 --> 02:15:39,647
Yeah

2163
02:15:41,328 --> 02:15:45,728
He's already future-proofing himself against that why do you think they're they they switch to running to that?

2164
02:15:45,728 --> 02:15:52,208
I mean, they're running two pools now side by side. They're running a fucking uh, core pool and uh knots pool and when the knots pool

2165
02:15:53,167 --> 02:15:55,167
Switches off. Yeah

2166
02:15:56,527 --> 02:16:01,808
And then like he's just hedging his bets technically both are not spools one's just pip 110 enforcing

2167
02:16:02,287 --> 02:16:07,247
Okay, you you know what I mean one that's in compliance or consensus whatever with the current main chain, you know

2168
02:16:07,568 --> 02:16:10,448
Yeah, but one thing to bring up is that I saw one tweet

2169
02:16:10,988 --> 02:16:16,688
Somewhere that gave me that some person had an idea. I don't remember exactly who it was or what was said

2170
02:16:16,688 --> 02:16:18,208
but it was something like

2171
02:16:18,208 --> 02:16:19,247
this

2172
02:16:19,247 --> 02:16:21,247
um bringing this issue to like a

2173
02:16:21,887 --> 02:16:24,308
Like bringing it out and bringing it to like a dramatic

2174
02:16:24,848 --> 02:16:31,007
Event with like a deadline and like a clear objective is like the way of forcing luke out of ocean

2175
02:16:31,647 --> 02:16:36,848
So that's what I heard something like that and I kind of that made me i'm not saying I believe that but i'm thinking

2176
02:16:36,848 --> 02:16:38,848
Oh, that was an interesting

2177
02:16:38,848 --> 02:16:42,287
idea that there's some kind of corporate drama and they want to get rid of luke because he's

2178
02:16:43,088 --> 02:16:48,287
Not worth it. There is corporate drama. I mean i've confirmed that with some of the

2179
02:16:49,007 --> 02:16:55,328
Board members in notion who you know might say that things are unclear in terms of what they're going to support

2180
02:16:56,367 --> 02:16:57,647
um

2181
02:16:57,647 --> 02:17:02,287
But whether that results in a resignation of luke or a firing of luke, I don't know I mean

2182
02:17:02,928 --> 02:17:04,928
I think there will probably be

2183
02:17:05,247 --> 02:17:06,527
a pivot

2184
02:17:06,527 --> 02:17:12,208
in the way that they are marketing ocean like I don't think they're going to want to continue being the

2185
02:17:12,848 --> 02:17:19,328
Spam fighting pool moving forward if this fork fails because you know, that's kind of a losing narrative

2186
02:17:20,127 --> 02:17:23,088
So that so I think there will be a pivot and then whether or not luke

2187
02:17:23,887 --> 02:17:29,328
Keeps working there or not is you know yet to be seen and mechanic for that matter too since he's

2188
02:17:29,808 --> 02:17:32,127
been driving a lot of the marketing around ocean, maybe

2189
02:17:32,928 --> 02:17:40,208
Maybe that's why they're they're deciding to split into two pools because they know that if they keep the core chain

2190
02:17:40,608 --> 02:17:42,047
pool around

2191
02:17:42,047 --> 02:17:47,808
uh, luke will just inevitably rage quit because he's supporting and working on pedo coin or c-sam coin or

2192
02:17:48,448 --> 02:17:53,088
Whatever but I don't I don't necessarily know if I mean like I don't think luke is

2193
02:17:53,568 --> 02:17:55,887
Is luke even doing very much for ocean anymore?

2194
02:17:55,968 --> 02:17:59,568
I think jason's pretty much taken the reins in terms of the technical

2195
02:18:00,208 --> 02:18:02,208
Like updates around the pool

2196
02:18:03,247 --> 02:18:07,728
Software and so I I mean, I don't know if luke's doing much at this point to be honest

2197
02:18:10,047 --> 02:18:12,367
This guy's worked all of this one time

2198
02:18:12,848 --> 02:18:17,247
I think I think jason's doing most of the work now. So like if luke were to resign

2199
02:18:17,328 --> 02:18:19,328
It's not a huge deal

2200
02:18:20,448 --> 02:18:24,928
In my opinion and most of their hash rates not signaling so it's not like it's not like they're a pool

2201
02:18:25,568 --> 02:18:29,568
That you know is putting luke up on a pedestal. Is there they're a pool that

2202
02:18:30,208 --> 02:18:32,208
is largely

2203
02:18:32,251 --> 02:18:34,251
You know being supported by

2204
02:18:34,251 --> 02:18:37,851
Hashers or miners who don't really give a shit about people in 10

2205
02:18:38,331 --> 02:18:41,131
And then as a matter of fact if they were to drop that entire narrative

2206
02:18:41,851 --> 02:18:45,851
And if luke would have resigned, you know might even drive further

2207
02:18:48,331 --> 02:18:53,951
Support from other miners who maybe have been staying away because of luke's craziness

2208
02:18:59,451 --> 02:19:01,131
I was trying to think

2209
02:19:01,131 --> 02:19:05,290
Why was mr. Hoddle having such a great point and I was remembering

2210
02:19:05,931 --> 02:19:06,810
that

2211
02:19:06,810 --> 02:19:07,931
Luke, okay

2212
02:19:07,931 --> 02:19:11,450
I've seen luke use this phrase so many times about changing the proof of work

2213
02:19:11,450 --> 02:19:16,091
That was kind of like why I was in my head. So that's an interesting another thing. He seems like he actually

2214
02:19:16,650 --> 02:19:18,650
He says that exact phrase

2215
02:19:19,051 --> 02:19:23,610
Very often he says well, we need to he may have said it more than anyone else in the whole

2216
02:19:25,051 --> 02:19:26,251
Bitcoin, uh

2217
02:19:27,130 --> 02:19:33,931
Dialogue did that phrase start during the whole SegWit thing? No, this is the craziest part. This is the craziest part about it

2218
02:19:37,370 --> 02:19:40,891
No, no, no, no, no, no, it wasn't no it would make sense in 2015

2219
02:19:40,891 --> 02:19:46,810
No, he started doing it after SegWit. So we he already knew about asic boost by that time by that time

2220
02:19:46,891 --> 02:19:49,130
Covered asic boost was already a thing. Um

2221
02:19:49,611 --> 02:19:53,950
He was still all about getting SegWit through like he was, you know championing through UASF

2222
02:19:54,831 --> 02:19:58,990
It was after SegWit got activated after SegWit got activated in

2223
02:19:59,531 --> 02:20:06,031
2018 cobra came out with some kind of thing about a new hashing algorithm called proof of work x

2224
02:20:06,590 --> 02:20:08,831
and luke retweeted that and adam was like

2225
02:20:09,630 --> 02:20:14,910
We should adopt this because shot 256 is broken because of asic boost but by that time

2226
02:20:15,471 --> 02:20:19,071
Everyone was already using asic boost. It was a it wasn't just a bitmain thing at that point

2227
02:20:19,391 --> 02:20:25,471
So i'm like I don't like it didn't make any fucking sense to me why and why were you fighting for SegWit for so long

2228
02:20:26,111 --> 02:20:27,870
when you thought that

2229
02:20:27,870 --> 02:20:30,531
Asic boost was already like broke shot 256

2230
02:20:31,151 --> 02:20:35,310
So after SegWit was activated after everything like, you know, we already had

2231
02:20:35,950 --> 02:20:43,071
Other miners starting like, you know, like the bitmain started selling miners against everybody like everything started like going back to normal

2232
02:20:43,791 --> 02:20:46,030
At that point he was pitching about a

2233
02:20:46,750 --> 02:20:48,731
a proof of work change in

2234
02:20:48,731 --> 02:20:54,270
2018 a year after SegWit. So that's not that he's he's fucking insane. He's just crazy

2235
02:20:55,711 --> 02:20:57,711
Someone told me though. I I learned that

2236
02:20:58,431 --> 02:20:59,951
he had

2237
02:20:59,951 --> 02:21:03,550
Money invested in some kind of something with proof of work x

2238
02:21:04,110 --> 02:21:08,431
I'm, not sure. I don't know the details about it. I don't even know anything about proof of work x like

2239
02:21:08,511 --> 02:21:10,030
I know what you're talking about

2240
02:21:10,030 --> 02:21:13,071
But apparently he had he was invested in it somehow

2241
02:21:13,711 --> 02:21:17,550
And like that's why he wanted uh to do it, but I don't know. I don't know the details about that

2242
02:21:18,270 --> 02:21:22,511
It's like it's like a research lab that has a patent on it or something like that. I know what you're talking about

2243
02:21:23,071 --> 02:21:23,951
Really?

2244
02:21:23,951 --> 02:21:25,951
All right, good because I don't know

2245
02:21:27,071 --> 02:21:29,071
No, no, it's true. He has it's like

2246
02:21:29,951 --> 02:21:33,470
It's like some research lab that has like a patent on some on like yeah

2247
02:21:33,470 --> 02:21:35,951
I think I call it like proof of work x or some shit like that

2248
02:21:38,431 --> 02:21:42,511
I'll see I can find it. But yeah, that's that was the hashing algorithm that cobra

2249
02:21:43,071 --> 02:21:45,091
Bitcoin cobra the guy that runs bitcoin.org

2250
02:21:45,791 --> 02:21:50,830
And luke jr were both shilling like crazy in 2018. Like they were it was

2251
02:21:51,711 --> 02:21:53,711
It was big time

2252
02:22:00,431 --> 02:22:02,431
To correct you but uh

2253
02:22:02,671 --> 02:22:08,270
I was going when I went back to review all the 2017 content around the UASF

2254
02:22:08,830 --> 02:22:13,951
Uh, jimmy, and I did discuss luke wanting to do a proof of work change

2255
02:22:14,431 --> 02:22:17,871
uh while no, no, no, that was that was the case

2256
02:22:18,030 --> 02:22:24,750
No, that was the case if we if bip 148 became the minority chain and they and at that point

2257
02:22:25,311 --> 02:22:26,110
uh

2258
02:22:26,110 --> 02:22:30,910
Chinese miners said they set away 100 million dollars to uh reorg the minority chain

2259
02:22:30,990 --> 02:22:36,270
And then luke was basically like well if you do that, then that you know, we do a proof of work change

2260
02:22:36,591 --> 02:22:42,910
Um, and at that point I was that was the nuclear option, right if the miners start wrecking your game

2261
02:22:42,990 --> 02:22:44,511
You don't have a choice

2262
02:22:44,511 --> 02:22:47,951
You don't have a choice. You have to so yeah at that point in that it made sense. Yeah

2263
02:22:49,551 --> 02:22:54,430
It's the same playbook he's deploying now, mr. Hoddle. He's literally saying that if they do end up on a minority chain

2264
02:22:54,430 --> 02:22:56,590
He's going to consider right but if that's yeah

2265
02:22:57,470 --> 02:22:59,470
Minors on the main

2266
02:23:01,310 --> 02:23:04,190
The main difference here is that you may end up on a minority chain

2267
02:23:04,190 --> 02:23:10,351
But it's not like the majority is fucking with you in the same way that they literally said they might no one's trying

2268
02:23:10,351 --> 02:23:12,831
To wipe it out. Yeah, no one's talking about wiping out the chain

2269
02:23:13,870 --> 02:23:15,310
Yeah

2270
02:23:15,310 --> 02:23:19,710
So so it's not even hostile in this case in this case. It's literally just ignoring like

2271
02:23:20,590 --> 02:23:24,111
Chinese miners do not want they did not want a minority chain to exist

2272
02:23:24,190 --> 02:23:28,831
I remember they had a whole article on that shit. They put like 100 million dollars aside and all this shit

2273
02:23:28,831 --> 02:23:33,630
So then yeah at that point they were planning they were planning to wipe you out and then in today's world

2274
02:23:33,710 --> 02:23:36,430
They're not even paying attention to you. And so

2275
02:23:36,991 --> 02:23:38,991
It's a difference, right?

2276
02:23:39,630 --> 02:23:41,870
The fact that luke is going to the nuclear option

2277
02:23:43,071 --> 02:23:45,071
You know regardless I guess

2278
02:23:45,630 --> 02:23:49,791
It's telling right? It's basically him admitting that he knows he's gonna lose

2279
02:23:50,671 --> 02:23:51,870
so

2280
02:23:51,870 --> 02:23:55,391
I don't know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if he actually pulls the trigger this time or not

2281
02:23:55,710 --> 02:23:58,351
Luke is always very black and white. So he's always like

2282
02:23:59,391 --> 02:24:01,391
You know, that's when he says he liar or whatever

2283
02:24:01,791 --> 02:24:02,831
and so

2284
02:24:02,831 --> 02:24:08,910
To him the nuclear option is just like any other he doesn't live in this world that we the rest of us live in where there's

2285
02:24:08,910 --> 02:24:10,910
like a proportional

2286
02:24:10,910 --> 02:24:12,831
response, you know, like

2287
02:24:12,831 --> 02:24:17,791
someone steps on your toe and you turn around and glare at them angrily or something luke just thinks like

2288
02:24:18,991 --> 02:24:20,991
there's right and there's wrong and

2289
02:24:22,511 --> 02:24:28,991
It's very bizarre, but you know, he's just like but like rosa park shouldn't have broken the law and should have stayed on the bus

2290
02:24:29,150 --> 02:24:31,150
back of the bus

2291
02:24:31,630 --> 02:24:34,910
Well, yeah, it was for her to break the law did he say that he did

2292
02:24:36,590 --> 02:24:39,071
I don't even think that makes like the top you can look at his

2293
02:24:39,630 --> 02:24:43,870
Not that i'm advising anyone do this, but you can go on reddit and you can find him

2294
02:24:44,590 --> 02:24:46,590
And you can just read all his posts

2295
02:24:47,710 --> 02:24:49,391
and

2296
02:24:49,391 --> 02:24:51,391
Yeah, he's a very interesting guy

2297
02:24:51,551 --> 02:24:53,551
and that's why I think it's very funny that

2298
02:24:54,511 --> 02:24:57,071
and you know, it's also weird is that the 110 issue is

2299
02:24:57,870 --> 02:24:59,870
It's like a terrible issue to pick

2300
02:25:00,351 --> 02:25:02,430
Also out of like, you know, you could at least

2301
02:25:04,111 --> 02:25:08,430
At least like OP_CAT would would do something, you know, like at least it would

2302
02:25:09,470 --> 02:25:11,870
It's something that the the stark people wanted

2303
02:25:12,590 --> 02:25:16,590
This is this op this this frivolous opportunity doesn't do anything. So it's so it's like

2304
02:25:17,150 --> 02:25:22,271
Well, well paul so I mean, you know, one of the interesting things you probably haven't been listening to any of the spaces

2305
02:25:22,351 --> 02:25:29,951
I've been running where we've been trying to piece out, you know, like what it is that vip 110 actually achieves. All right, and I think

2306
02:25:30,991 --> 02:25:34,671
many of its supporters as well as luke and you know

2307
02:25:35,470 --> 02:25:37,470
dathan and mechanic have

2308
02:25:37,791 --> 02:25:40,991
Have admitted now that it does nothing to actually stop

2309
02:25:41,791 --> 02:25:47,231
Or slow down spam, I think, you know, it's pretty clear that all the message bro

2310
02:25:48,190 --> 02:25:50,190
All the spin was that?

2311
02:25:50,671 --> 02:25:54,271
It's to send a message, right? Right. So so all the spam I said that it sends a message

2312
02:25:54,831 --> 02:26:00,771
Right. It's it's trying to send a message all the spam that is trying to stop has already, you know bypassed

2313
02:26:01,870 --> 02:26:05,710
Any sort of change and is ready to deploy that if need be

2314
02:26:06,271 --> 02:26:12,831
So it doesn't actually stop any spam doesn't stop contiguous bites because you know, we they figured out ways around that as well

2315
02:26:13,710 --> 02:26:14,831
um

2316
02:26:14,831 --> 02:26:17,630
and now the the the narrative shift is

2317
02:26:18,511 --> 02:26:21,870
Well, it's hardening bitcoin and in other ways, you know

2318
02:26:22,831 --> 02:26:25,150
And in one way it's it's making it

2319
02:26:26,111 --> 02:26:32,511
Less susceptible to poison block attacks. That's like one narrative that they're trying to push now hunter beast is pushing it

2320
02:26:33,150 --> 02:26:35,150
You know and a few others

2321
02:26:35,391 --> 02:26:37,310
um

2322
02:26:37,310 --> 02:26:39,310
I don't know like so

2323
02:26:39,870 --> 02:26:43,470
I think that that doesn't have much teeth. I don't even know where i'm going with this to be honest

2324
02:26:45,391 --> 02:26:48,351
I mean it would be it's better to send a message with something that

2325
02:26:49,150 --> 02:26:51,250
Is not an embarrassing self-contradiction

2326
02:26:52,271 --> 02:26:56,611
That will probably especially not if you have to publicly vote and you're getting 0.5

2327
02:26:57,710 --> 02:26:59,870
and then there's no plan for the

2328
02:27:00,891 --> 02:27:02,750
inevitable

2329
02:27:02,750 --> 02:27:07,551
Um, like because you know, they're not going to get enough hash rate to find blocks

2330
02:27:07,791 --> 02:27:11,231
I think everyone here probably agrees. I think they'll find a flu a few

2331
02:27:11,710 --> 02:27:14,671
Yeah, but they could have to find 100 for those people to get paid

2332
02:27:16,590 --> 02:27:19,070
Not only that will they get 100 will they get 101

2333
02:27:20,590 --> 02:27:22,030
Not only that so yes

2334
02:27:22,030 --> 02:27:24,111
They have to find 100 before their miners get paid

2335
02:27:24,111 --> 02:27:30,191
But then by the time they find 100 if that ever happens are those block rewards worth anything? That's the secondary question

2336
02:27:31,150 --> 02:27:32,991
Right

2337
02:27:32,991 --> 02:27:38,191
And I think the answer is pretty obviously no because as soon as well, yeah, not if it's told about bgc

2338
02:27:38,830 --> 02:27:45,231
But as soon as any real market value forms around those coins, you know, i'll be the first in line to dump mine

2339
02:27:46,910 --> 02:27:53,311
You know, well they have to find a new name and everything too, you know, I can tell you all from not that you need

2340
02:27:54,510 --> 02:27:56,510
Any information on this particular topic?

2341
02:27:56,590 --> 02:27:58,351
But you know if you're from first-hand experience

2342
02:27:58,351 --> 02:28:02,910
There's like actually kind of a large number of details. You have to like work through even just to create

2343
02:28:03,871 --> 02:28:08,191
A fork of bitcoin that's not even changing lines of code from bitcoin core. You need like the name

2344
02:28:08,270 --> 02:28:11,551
Where's the what's the domain, you know, how do people find the github?

2345
02:28:12,111 --> 02:28:17,070
Project like how do they know where the node software is or how do they tell it from imposters?

2346
02:28:17,390 --> 02:28:19,390
I gotta I gotta say

2347
02:28:19,470 --> 02:28:22,671
I have a question in terms of real quick time. Oh, yeah

2348
02:28:23,311 --> 02:28:27,070
Are you in talks with exchanges already to like list your shit coin

2349
02:28:27,871 --> 02:28:31,710
No, I was just doing it. Um, because I wanted to make sure it was in a nice box first

2350
02:28:31,710 --> 02:28:35,231
So I was doing these things to dry run which is like if the fork happened

2351
02:28:36,030 --> 02:28:38,030
like today, so we were like doing that like

2352
02:28:38,910 --> 02:28:40,910
basically now so then I was going to

2353
02:28:41,871 --> 02:28:46,590
Uh, my thought so I haven't quite done it yet, but I think the question of the month out though

2354
02:28:47,150 --> 02:28:50,751
Yeah, I think the exchange thing is not as um relevant as

2355
02:28:51,231 --> 02:28:53,390
It was in the recent past because

2356
02:28:54,191 --> 02:28:58,510
Um in the past it was like a total king maker if you were on the exchange versus not

2357
02:28:59,070 --> 02:29:01,070
but nowadays

2358
02:29:01,070 --> 02:29:05,631
There is so much like with this swap provide like it's you can download an app to your phone

2359
02:29:06,270 --> 02:29:08,270
Most wallets, that's true

2360
02:29:08,351 --> 02:29:14,111
Crypto wall will swap I guess and the other thing is the key the key there is that you're getting enough blocks that atomic swaps

2361
02:29:14,191 --> 02:29:16,191
Actually makes sense. Yeah, exactly, right

2362
02:29:16,830 --> 02:29:19,390
It's actually so you're right that uh, you know

2363
02:29:19,390 --> 02:29:22,671
You know how it is when you do a project things take longer than you thought

2364
02:29:22,830 --> 02:29:25,551
So even though I planned for like lots and lots of buffer space

2365
02:29:26,191 --> 02:29:27,791
I you know, it's like a little bit running out

2366
02:29:27,791 --> 02:29:29,710
So yeah, I was a little on the exchange thing

2367
02:29:29,710 --> 02:29:33,791
It is later than I would have thought but there are some other things like the L1

2368
02:29:33,950 --> 02:29:37,070
which is all you need to send and receive the coin like they don't have to mess with the

2369
02:29:37,470 --> 02:29:39,470
Drivechains or the L2s

2370
02:29:39,551 --> 02:29:44,270
Or even the bib 301 3 reinforcement. So the L1 is basically a copy of bitcoin core, you know

2371
02:29:44,351 --> 02:29:46,351
So like basically everything is almost the same

2372
02:29:46,830 --> 02:29:50,111
So I really wanted to put it in a nice box where I have like a

2373
02:29:50,830 --> 02:29:53,231
Like a description of like port

2374
02:29:53,950 --> 02:29:54,751
for

2375
02:29:54,751 --> 02:29:56,351
your node

2376
02:29:56,351 --> 02:29:58,351
I'm, assuming it's not eight three three three

2377
02:29:58,830 --> 02:29:59,791
Yes

2378
02:29:59,791 --> 02:30:02,431
What are you using? Um, you know, uh

2379
02:30:03,231 --> 02:30:08,910
You can check I have to double check but yeah, we change like network magic and stuff like that the ports the seed node

2380
02:30:08,991 --> 02:30:14,111
You got to change those things. Yeah, I think we might be using one eight three three three, but I don't want to say the wrong

2381
02:30:14,731 --> 02:30:20,510
Um detailers, I mean we have like we added ten thousand to it or something talking about the cusf thing

2382
02:30:22,270 --> 02:30:27,950
Not quite but uh is similar i'm just saying that for the exchange to add it it's not like they have to like do some weird

2383
02:30:28,671 --> 02:30:32,030
Vetting thing or figure out like it's the oh, it's the same as the oldest

2384
02:30:33,070 --> 02:30:34,351
btc

2385
02:30:34,351 --> 02:30:39,070
Uh, so i'm not as worried and then another reason why i'm not that worried is actually it may sound bizarre

2386
02:30:39,070 --> 02:30:43,231
But the rise of tether has kind of turned everything into an exchange like every single

2387
02:30:44,171 --> 02:30:50,111
Telegram group chat is like an otc desk now. And so i'm not as worried

2388
02:30:50,111 --> 02:30:55,070
So I deprioritized it slightly and then of course with regular project management stuff

2389
02:30:55,150 --> 02:30:59,551
It's a slightly later than I thought but yeah, this is like the last 30 days or so

2390
02:30:59,871 --> 02:31:02,191
but I also think it'd be pretty easy and you know, you want to

2391
02:31:02,751 --> 02:31:08,270
There will be a few people who a few smaller ones definitely will and a few smaller wallets definitely will

2392
02:31:08,910 --> 02:31:12,671
Um, so that's already locked up. And so I was kind of waiting to ramp it up

2393
02:31:13,470 --> 02:31:15,470
Before I tried to call in those favors at

2394
02:31:16,351 --> 02:31:18,751
Kraken or whatever, you know what I mean? I kind of wanted to like

2395
02:31:19,311 --> 02:31:21,710
It's like inviting people to a party. You got to get like your

2396
02:31:22,510 --> 02:31:25,950
You got to get your stuff ready first. You got to get your food your drinks

2397
02:31:26,030 --> 02:31:29,950
You got to get your music or whatever then you got to get like your close friends who you think will come

2398
02:31:30,510 --> 02:31:34,111
Then you invite some other people and then finally down the line you invite

2399
02:31:34,590 --> 02:31:38,030
The marginal people and you think oh, it's a really good party. We got a lot of people coming

2400
02:31:38,030 --> 02:31:42,191
We got plenty of got plenty of food. So I was kind of guys the big exchanges like last

2401
02:31:42,751 --> 02:31:44,751
That's my thought process on it

2402
02:31:45,631 --> 02:31:48,351
What is the equivalent of inviting the girls to your party

2403
02:31:49,150 --> 02:31:54,351
Yeah, they would the girls would be like the the hot girl you like you would delay that right because you want to put the

2404
02:31:54,351 --> 02:31:56,111
party together first

2405
02:31:56,111 --> 02:31:58,111
Maybe get some fomo going

2406
02:31:58,111 --> 02:32:02,671
Make sure you go. Yeah. Yeah, make sure it's like social capital like it's like everybody's gonna be there. Yeah

2407
02:32:03,710 --> 02:32:05,710
Oh, yeah, do you throw parties often?

2408
02:32:07,231 --> 02:32:11,710
I would say that I do. Yes, he's a popular guy man. He's got a lot of friends. Yeah, that's true

2409
02:32:12,830 --> 02:32:15,150
Parties are a key ingredient parties are you know?

2410
02:32:15,791 --> 02:32:17,150
I'll make it to one of your parties

2411
02:32:17,150 --> 02:32:21,871
I've thrown a few parties where people had met at the party and later got married and had kids

2412
02:32:22,431 --> 02:32:24,431
believe it or not, so

2413
02:32:24,751 --> 02:32:27,470
There's uh, there's hope for everyone. I'm already married. So

2414
02:32:28,111 --> 02:32:30,111
Okay, we gotta go to the fall parties

2415
02:32:32,830 --> 02:32:34,351
Yep

2416
02:32:34,351 --> 02:32:37,150
Now did we interrupt someone was saying something else? I forgot everybody

2417
02:32:37,311 --> 02:32:38,671
Oh, no, no

2418
02:32:38,671 --> 02:32:42,210
That was me. I was saying i'm kind of disappointed that not a single exchange

2419
02:32:42,671 --> 02:32:47,871
Has actually stepped up and said hey, we are ready the moment, you know

2420
02:32:48,431 --> 02:32:51,950
Luke flips, you know the proof of work change or something

2421
02:32:52,431 --> 02:32:55,710
They'll be ready with a coin they may or may not have a name for it

2422
02:32:56,030 --> 02:33:02,111
But i'm surprised no exchange has even taken it seriously to kind of get ready to sell the shit coin

2423
02:33:02,510 --> 02:33:04,431
uh, I mean

2424
02:33:04,510 --> 02:33:06,510
I agree with this funny the name

2425
02:33:06,671 --> 02:33:11,470
Not not to interrupt but I just i'm on the same wavelength as you where I think it's fun. I'm like obsessed

2426
02:33:11,551 --> 02:33:14,910
I'm, like worry about all these tiny little details and meanwhile, it seems like

2427
02:33:15,470 --> 02:33:21,551
Luke is over there. Just like whatever i'm sure wicked and I are also like on the same page where it's like they

2428
02:33:22,270 --> 02:33:25,950
I don't think they realize that they are forking off like august 8th

2429
02:33:26,510 --> 02:33:28,590
They kind of a lot of them think

2430
02:33:29,470 --> 02:33:31,470
maybe luke realizes this but like

2431
02:33:31,950 --> 02:33:34,830
That it's august 8th, but a lot of them seem to think like

2432
02:33:35,791 --> 02:33:37,150
That it's not

2433
02:33:37,150 --> 02:33:39,710
They I it's hard to wrap your head around what's going on

2434
02:33:40,270 --> 02:33:42,590
with them, but I don't think they realize that it's the

2435
02:33:43,231 --> 02:33:45,231
the first mandatory signaling period that

2436
02:33:46,191 --> 02:33:48,111
It's because you guys aren't thinking

2437
02:33:48,111 --> 02:33:50,751
Straight up, honestly, it's because you guys aren't thinking with luke logic

2438
02:33:50,910 --> 02:33:56,270
Like if you use luke logic, it makes perfect sense why he's not concerned about this stuff in his in luke logic world

2439
02:33:56,910 --> 02:34:00,431
Uh, we are the ones that forked off like core is the one that's forking off

2440
02:34:00,431 --> 02:34:02,991
So he's so he's like, oh, yeah, this is just it's just bitcoin

2441
02:34:02,991 --> 02:34:07,710
Like it's not bit one zero coin or or holy bitcoin or whatever. It's just bitcoin like we're the fork

2442
02:34:08,751 --> 02:34:15,070
but by the way back when uh, bitcoin cash, uh b cash broke off

2443
02:34:15,791 --> 02:34:19,950
It wasn't clear what the ticker was going to be because they also didn't prepare

2444
02:34:20,351 --> 02:34:26,530
I don't know if anyone remembers but many of the not many but some of the exchanges had the ticker bcc

2445
02:34:27,231 --> 02:34:29,231
instead of bch

2446
02:34:29,231 --> 02:34:31,150
for bcash

2447
02:34:31,150 --> 02:34:36,671
But and those were the exchanges with bcc would make sense bitcoin cash

2448
02:34:37,231 --> 02:34:39,811
But bcc was the ticker for bitconnect

2449
02:34:40,431 --> 02:34:45,251
And the exchanges that had bitconnect on the exchange couldn't list bcc

2450
02:34:45,710 --> 02:34:51,950
So they ended up listing bch and that's how it ended up being bch to begin with but there was no

2451
02:34:52,251 --> 02:34:55,791
Consensus from their side what their ticker was going to be. I thought

2452
02:34:56,351 --> 02:35:01,710
Decided that I thought tone I thought at the beginning when all that should happen in 2017 that the original plan

2453
02:35:02,270 --> 02:35:07,631
Was to call uh, the legacy chain bitcoin classic or something like that and then call the new chain something else

2454
02:35:08,030 --> 02:35:13,231
I don't know. It was gonna know that bitcoin classic was bitcoin core bitcoin classic was a whole other thing

2455
02:35:13,470 --> 02:35:17,631
It was gonna be bitcoin and bitcoin core because again, just like luke

2456
02:35:18,351 --> 02:35:22,671
They are taught that we were the one breaking the rules and you know for forking off

2457
02:35:23,470 --> 02:35:25,390
somehow

2458
02:35:25,390 --> 02:35:30,751
This is certainly a great time to revisit old block size war stories and I remember

2459
02:35:31,710 --> 02:35:36,670
When around this when this happened, I went to some bitcoin meetup in in I think in miami

2460
02:35:37,151 --> 02:35:40,670
And people were gathered or maybe it was uh, I don't remember where it doesn't matter

2461
02:35:40,751 --> 02:35:44,590
the point is people were like, uh, they were really talking like a lot about like, oh, we're

2462
02:35:45,310 --> 02:35:47,310
We got this exchange to guarantee

2463
02:35:48,751 --> 02:35:52,271
Um that they would use the btc ticker for this

2464
02:35:52,830 --> 02:35:54,830
Chain, I don't even remember who it was

2465
02:35:54,991 --> 02:35:58,911
But I just remember it kind of makes it maybe a confusing story to tell so i'm sorry about that

2466
02:35:58,911 --> 02:36:01,391
but it's the interesting thing about the story is that

2467
02:36:01,950 --> 02:36:05,470
The people were so excited. I was like kind of walking up to these people

2468
02:36:05,470 --> 02:36:09,550
It was at a party of some kind some kind of bitcoin event and you know

2469
02:36:09,631 --> 02:36:13,310
And they were like huddled together and they were so excited that they got this exchange to get

2470
02:36:13,710 --> 02:36:18,590
The ticker for one of the chains not the other so it was like people were really obsessed

2471
02:36:19,151 --> 02:36:26,031
You know this stuff this naming stuff is very important to some people it's not I don't know how important it is

2472
02:36:26,511 --> 02:36:31,151
Overall, but these people do fight over they had like a bitter fight over these

2473
02:36:31,871 --> 02:36:33,871
uh, you know, of course, you remember the

2474
02:36:33,950 --> 02:36:35,950
b cash versus bitcoin cash and

2475
02:36:36,670 --> 02:36:37,631
so

2476
02:36:37,631 --> 02:36:41,231
It's it's interesting to name both roger tried to make it

2477
02:36:41,771 --> 02:36:43,631
bitcoin core

2478
02:36:43,631 --> 02:36:50,271
And bitcoin cash there's no more bitcoin like it's it's just bitcoin core and bitcoin cash

2479
02:36:54,430 --> 02:36:56,430
So we can predict that all this will happen again

2480
02:36:57,631 --> 02:36:59,710
Well, this is I preemptively was like I for mine

2481
02:36:59,710 --> 02:37:05,070
I got to pick something that doesn't have bitcoin in the name because I think there was a huge strategic mistake by roger too

2482
02:37:05,151 --> 02:37:10,670
Because I I once I think I saw roger give a long talk about bitcoin cash somewhere once

2483
02:37:11,231 --> 02:37:13,391
And I was just kind of in the audience blending in

2484
02:37:14,271 --> 02:37:15,550
and

2485
02:37:15,550 --> 02:37:17,391
the person I could overhear

2486
02:37:17,391 --> 02:37:20,271
people like when we were walking away like people next to me were saying

2487
02:37:20,670 --> 02:37:25,470
Like it was clear from the way they were talking that they these people who are normal people

2488
02:37:26,111 --> 02:37:31,950
They kind of thought that roger veer had been talking. They like googled bitcoin or something. They didn't know that he was talking about

2489
02:37:33,631 --> 02:37:40,590
Not btc if that makes any sense like they thought he was just chilling bitcoin and bitcoin cash is just some way of talking about

2490
02:37:40,891 --> 02:37:41,950
btc

2491
02:37:41,950 --> 02:37:43,950
so I was like

2492
02:37:45,550 --> 02:37:49,950
I never had the problem with the fork. I had the problem with him trying to make it seem like that was bitcoin

2493
02:37:50,190 --> 02:37:52,190
Like that was the issue

2494
02:37:52,271 --> 02:37:56,511
Like a chain that was magnitude less secure. He tried to

2495
02:37:57,070 --> 02:38:04,830
Make people believe that that was bitcoin. It was crazy. Wait speaking of which paul have you decided what difficulty you're gonna go down to?

2496
02:38:05,631 --> 02:38:06,511
Yeah

2497
02:38:06,511 --> 02:38:09,231
Oh, that's a good question. Now. I think it's not we were well

2498
02:38:09,310 --> 02:38:15,950
We were gonna test boy. You're fucking both away from launch. Well, it doesn't really you know, it's like, um

2499
02:38:18,590 --> 02:38:22,371
You're gonna wait for people to mine for fucking 11 years straight to hit a block dude

2500
02:38:22,618 --> 02:38:25,178
Well, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna hopefully not do that because

2501
02:38:26,698 --> 02:38:28,458
Probably like you wanted low

2502
02:38:28,458 --> 02:38:33,178
so the interesting thing is it basically depends on what you look you think the price will be because

2503
02:38:33,658 --> 02:38:37,418
The hash it's based the hash rate is more or less the block reward multiplied by the price

2504
02:38:37,578 --> 02:38:41,978
So if you have or you can think it's going to be extremely profitable for a short period of time

2505
02:38:42,058 --> 02:38:47,577
Well, as you know, that's in broad strokes what the plan is, but I don't know exactly how low to set it

2506
02:38:47,577 --> 02:38:51,337
But so I think like probably like well, it's gotta be it's gotta be low enough

2507
02:38:51,658 --> 02:38:56,618
It's gotta be high enough where it's not gpu mineable but low enough where it's um

2508
02:38:57,818 --> 02:39:00,938
I'm, like probably probably a million. Oh, I gotta

2509
02:39:01,897 --> 02:39:03,897
I got a question for you. Hold on

2510
02:39:03,897 --> 02:39:06,138
Um, if he's doing a proof of work change

2511
02:39:07,018 --> 02:39:09,338
Uh, wouldn't it wouldn't he want it to be?

2512
02:39:10,618 --> 02:39:12,698
No, no, we're not talking about

2513
02:39:13,897 --> 02:39:16,858
We don't know what luke's gonna do but i'm I wish we did

2514
02:39:16,858 --> 02:39:18,858
We're talking about no

2515
02:39:19,338 --> 02:39:21,658
All the way. I love shot 256d. Just keep it

2516
02:39:22,298 --> 02:39:25,897
Love it, uh that has its own security budget. This is our favorite phrase

2517
02:39:26,438 --> 02:39:31,738
Implications later on down the road because if one chain has shot 256, this is just a quick aside

2518
02:39:32,058 --> 02:39:34,058
But if one chain has 256

2519
02:39:34,778 --> 02:39:41,177
And if one chain has transaction fees that are low and stable and the other one is growing geometrically even five percent

2520
02:39:41,577 --> 02:39:43,497
Or five percent a year

2521
02:39:43,497 --> 02:39:47,018
Eventually it will grow so much in within the two-week period that'll be

2522
02:39:47,738 --> 02:39:49,738
bigger than the entire profit margin of the

2523
02:39:49,978 --> 02:39:54,618
The other chain it'll have like a may cause problems for the in the long long long run

2524
02:39:56,778 --> 02:40:01,897
Paul it's got to be it's got to be Bitaxe mineable. Yeah, I was thinking that's what I was thinking

2525
02:40:01,897 --> 02:40:03,897
Well, we have some people who have a vague

2526
02:40:04,457 --> 02:40:07,037
Why not gpu mineable you can have more people participate

2527
02:40:07,037 --> 02:40:08,478
Right

2528
02:40:08,478 --> 02:40:12,717
No, no, because then the rear you can't have gpu mineable shots anymore. There's

2529
02:40:13,278 --> 02:40:17,838
Risks of too many reworks. We'll also also you you don't want it to be you don't want to be so

2530
02:40:17,997 --> 02:40:22,957
You don't want it to be so low that somebody could come in with like a petahash and mine like a bunch of more

2531
02:40:24,238 --> 02:40:26,077
Blocks in a you know, 10 minutes or something

2532
02:40:26,077 --> 02:40:30,638
That's I feel like informally people have if I add up all the people who offered to mine

2533
02:40:31,278 --> 02:40:33,278
It's like in the petahash

2534
02:40:34,157 --> 02:40:42,237
Zone of like why didn't you take satoshi's rewards and then just make the block reward reset to 50 bitcoin

2535
02:40:43,597 --> 02:40:44,558
instead of

2536
02:40:44,558 --> 02:40:48,877
Well, we want to be because the only thing that matters is the revenue minus the cost

2537
02:40:48,957 --> 02:40:51,278
so if you set the difficulty low, it's the same as

2538
02:40:52,078 --> 02:40:53,757
improving the

2539
02:40:53,757 --> 02:40:55,358
block reward

2540
02:40:55,358 --> 02:41:00,957
Temporarily though, right? Well, is it though after difficulty adjustment periods? I'll get to where it needs to be

2541
02:41:01,278 --> 02:41:07,118
It will always reach this zero profit what are called in economics is zero profit condition equilibrium, so it'll always be

2542
02:41:08,237 --> 02:41:15,358
But the difference paul between that is that you have you basically have a mandatory lockup of those coins

2543
02:41:15,918 --> 02:41:20,877
If you were to redistribute them to miners instead of early investors, so that'd be the clear. That'd be the clear difference

2544
02:41:22,078 --> 02:41:26,157
Yeah, but isn't it kind of like it's all for naught right like that doesn't even really achieve anything

2545
02:41:26,797 --> 02:41:28,237
No, I guess

2546
02:41:28,237 --> 02:41:30,237
Right because it's just going to be it's going to be super low

2547
02:41:30,638 --> 02:41:35,037
Like thousands of blocks will be found the first few days then it will the only question is will it overshoot?

2548
02:41:35,998 --> 02:41:37,998
Because it goes up by a factor of four

2549
02:41:43,198 --> 02:41:47,278
I mean it kind of begs the question then like what is the fork even trying to achieve besides firing core?

2550
02:41:48,638 --> 02:41:50,638
We've got a fire core, baby. That's the purpose

2551
02:41:53,358 --> 02:41:55,358
Good purpose, I mean, yeah, sure that's fine

2552
02:41:56,558 --> 02:42:00,877
Mine doesn't necessarily even fire core because the L1 is the same as core. It's exactly the same

2553
02:42:01,597 --> 02:42:04,237
um, but uh, but yeah, we add up these L2s

2554
02:42:05,757 --> 02:42:10,957
Planetary scale and uh, you know the the low difficulty that is the hard fork event

2555
02:42:12,078 --> 02:42:13,358
so

2556
02:42:13,358 --> 02:42:16,157
Yeah, so it's not going to be the same L1 then it's going to be a different chain

2557
02:42:16,638 --> 02:42:19,757
Oh, well, yeah, of course. I mean you're gonna you're gonna use the same code base. Yeah, sure

2558
02:42:19,838 --> 02:42:24,638
But you're gonna be 99.9 of the code. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. He's gonna have the same code base

2559
02:42:25,118 --> 02:42:28,638
Brian the point the point of this is to get Drivechain in without bitcoin. Yeah

2560
02:42:28,957 --> 02:42:32,157
the merge mined L2s planetary scales eCash privacy

2561
02:42:32,957 --> 02:42:36,157
Uh, you know, uh namespace prediction markets, etc

2562
02:42:37,037 --> 02:42:42,397
Uh, and but in particular the ability to launch new L2 if all the L2s suck the current L2s suck

2563
02:42:43,438 --> 02:42:45,438
Someone can launch a new L2

2564
02:42:46,077 --> 02:42:51,438
And wait, there's only how many else you could only launch certain amount of L2s on Drivechain, right? You're not

2565
02:42:51,438 --> 02:42:54,338
Well, not really it's per in the bit that's 256

2566
02:42:56,797 --> 02:43:02,637
Wait paul, you could just keep doing it. It's 256 and it has to be but it's not a practical limit

2567
02:43:04,077 --> 02:43:07,598
Each new one is basically dependent on minor buy-in, right?

2568
02:43:08,158 --> 02:43:12,237
Yeah, they all just survive they basically are but the logic is it's pretty interesting

2569
02:43:12,318 --> 02:43:16,477
it'll be pretty interesting I mean because it's one thing to you know propose that in a

2570
02:43:16,878 --> 02:43:21,838
Network like bitcoin proper that has a sufficiently decentralized mining, you know

2571
02:43:24,158 --> 02:43:28,318
Globally but when you have such a low difficulty and let's say you've got like

2572
02:43:28,957 --> 02:43:30,957
10 chuds running beta access

2573
02:43:31,598 --> 02:43:34,318
Now it's it's a way different dynamic, right?

2574
02:43:34,957 --> 02:43:38,318
Because it's like you're proposing a new sidechain and now you need like, you know

2575
02:43:38,637 --> 02:43:41,118
five out of the ten chuds with beta access to

2576
02:43:41,998 --> 02:43:43,197
To enable it

2577
02:43:44,158 --> 02:43:49,118
Is going to hold it down watch well, I think that um, actually the fact that the pools

2578
02:43:49,758 --> 02:43:51,758
Are sort of expert specialists

2579
02:43:52,077 --> 02:43:54,077
I think that's actually pretty good tools

2580
02:43:54,318 --> 02:43:58,237
Well, that's what I mean is that we have the same thing in btc is that we have a few pools

2581
02:43:58,318 --> 02:44:03,278
So I was thinking actually that's not the worst thing for the pools to actually say right this is i'm this

2582
02:44:03,438 --> 02:44:05,438
Okay, maybe all these customers

2583
02:44:05,838 --> 02:44:09,197
Runner is is just as competent as the pool operator

2584
02:44:10,158 --> 02:44:12,158
Well, I would be hoping

2585
02:44:12,237 --> 02:44:15,118
Well, here's the thing is the prediction didn't come true in btc

2586
02:44:15,517 --> 02:44:19,038
So I would be hoping that the foundry people like in foundry would be like, okay. Listen

2587
02:44:19,838 --> 02:44:25,438
We've put like a team of three people full time to study all these bitcoin controversies

2588
02:44:25,438 --> 02:44:29,357
So here's our here's our report on 110. Here's our leadership, right?

2589
02:44:29,357 --> 02:44:33,378
But instead they just punt it back and they say vote so that we're not responsible

2590
02:44:33,917 --> 02:44:37,278
Which I think is really disappointing. I think it's worse

2591
02:44:37,438 --> 02:44:41,438
I thought what you were saying was that the bid xp would be easier to coordinate so that would be better

2592
02:44:41,598 --> 02:44:45,758
So that's why I was saying well actually was it's still easy to coordinate btc. Maybe you're saying something else

2593
02:44:46,397 --> 02:44:51,598
No, no, i'm no i'm saying like I got a Bitaxe and I I want a mine, right?

2594
02:44:51,758 --> 02:44:54,397
So like i'm not right now. I'm just like having it on

2595
02:44:56,878 --> 02:45:02,878
What if the hash rate is so low that someone can just spin up like a peta hash and then just start rejecting all

2596
02:45:03,357 --> 02:45:05,357
all the proposals yes

2597
02:45:05,677 --> 02:45:10,237
No one's gonna get wicked. No one's gonna care dude. No one's gonna care to do that. Like it's a

2598
02:45:10,797 --> 02:45:12,637
I don't think anyone's gonna care

2599
02:45:12,637 --> 02:45:14,957
There's gonna be no money to like for how much like

2600
02:45:15,517 --> 02:45:19,677
What do you think how much money do you think is going to be out there for the takings like in the beginning especially?

2601
02:45:20,718 --> 02:45:24,558
Uh, I don't know but they you know, they're currently like in in private

2602
02:45:25,658 --> 02:45:31,838
Transactions like among the currently like in the you and you can also look at something something like that. Yeah

2603
02:45:32,397 --> 02:45:39,438
Um, but that's like the pre-launch so you don't know if that's 0.05 percent the value

2604
02:45:41,357 --> 02:45:45,278
Uh, what is that, uh, let me see possibly yeah, that could be right

2605
02:45:48,718 --> 02:45:56,158
Oh man, we got a a co-founder of star nine here I just noticed it's literally less than I mean you would pay more in fees

2606
02:45:57,118 --> 02:45:59,517
To you know, probably swap

2607
02:45:59,677 --> 02:46:02,637
Probably swap then you'd get out

2608
02:46:05,118 --> 02:46:07,517
Swap what well, I don't know I guess

2609
02:46:08,077 --> 02:46:09,598
What am I trying to say here?

2610
02:46:09,598 --> 02:46:15,677
Uh, the the reason to do this project is, you know, first of all, it's kind of like a better version of like bitcoin inquisition

2611
02:46:15,758 --> 02:46:19,118
So it's like cool just like demo but like much cooler

2612
02:46:19,917 --> 02:46:21,917
um, and because

2613
02:46:22,158 --> 02:46:24,397
Even at the yeah, exactly

2614
02:46:24,637 --> 02:46:26,637
But I think the issue is that in my

2615
02:46:26,938 --> 02:46:28,558
philosophy of btc

2616
02:46:28,558 --> 02:46:34,077
Even though btc has done very very well and i've been in i've been a part of bitcoin for like 15 years

2617
02:46:34,878 --> 02:46:36,397
It's done very well

2618
02:46:36,397 --> 02:46:41,197
Uh, i'm worried that it has all of those parties didn't fund themselves. Yes, right and um

2619
02:46:41,838 --> 02:46:43,838
Exactly. It does make you more

2620
02:46:43,917 --> 02:46:49,917
Being rich does help you on the popularity front in case you were wondering. That's a this is see some secret knowledge. I'm just uh,

2621
02:46:50,477 --> 02:46:52,957
Letting you guys in on the classified rich and popular

2622
02:46:53,677 --> 02:46:55,277
Yeah

2623
02:46:55,277 --> 02:46:57,917
Some people have it all he's only popular because he's rich

2624
02:46:58,717 --> 02:47:00,717
You never necessarily you never know

2625
02:47:01,438 --> 02:47:02,318
um

2626
02:47:02,318 --> 02:47:06,078
But I think the issue is that btc might not have a future

2627
02:47:06,237 --> 02:47:11,438
So that's i'm more concerned about btc having no future than I am convinced that

2628
02:47:11,977 --> 02:47:13,977
ecx will be a big success

2629
02:47:16,237 --> 02:47:21,998
I'm not gonna sell my eCash. I'm gonna hold it as a hedge. Yeah, I think you probably should I think it's not the worst decision

2630
02:47:22,638 --> 02:47:27,118
Especially if it's see here's the thing if the price is really low then why even bother why even bother selling?

2631
02:47:27,118 --> 02:47:29,118
So I think a lot of people

2632
02:47:32,078 --> 02:47:36,717
And I want at least 10 of them I want at least 10 of those 10 of those rewards

2633
02:47:38,078 --> 02:47:39,837
10 blocks

2634
02:47:39,837 --> 02:47:42,157
The only reason people went and sold

2635
02:47:42,797 --> 02:47:45,518
Bcash is because it actually like, you know, it was worth doing

2636
02:47:47,118 --> 02:47:50,157
Yeah, I know you and I we made a lot of money I made uh, I

2637
02:47:50,318 --> 02:47:51,277
I

2638
02:47:51,277 --> 02:47:53,277
uh, I think I didn't sell for

2639
02:47:54,398 --> 02:48:00,498
I waited a while, but I sold a lot of that for like six months or something and then definitely in 2019

2640
02:48:04,558 --> 02:48:11,777
And then the other 50% trickled like I trickled like I guess yeah, what's the opposite of dca whatever the opposite

2641
02:48:14,638 --> 02:48:16,638
Dollar cost

2642
02:48:20,237 --> 02:48:26,558
Whatever that is, that's what I did with the other 50% jumping coin averaging. No, that's not that good, but we'll think of it

2643
02:48:27,277 --> 02:48:31,597
Anyway, uh, yeah, so it depends so either the project would be small and it'll be a demo or it'll be

2644
02:48:32,157 --> 02:48:34,157
Big and then it'll have some kind of

2645
02:48:34,217 --> 02:48:35,438
relevance

2646
02:48:35,438 --> 02:48:37,518
I think um

2647
02:48:37,518 --> 02:48:39,518
I think a lot of people don't realize

2648
02:48:40,717 --> 02:48:42,958
You know how different things could be so mr

2649
02:48:42,958 --> 02:48:46,558
Hoddle and I were talking before about bitcoin core like even if you just download

2650
02:48:47,277 --> 02:48:50,237
Our thing bit window which you can use with the btc network

2651
02:48:50,878 --> 02:48:52,878
so you don't have to if you just

2652
02:48:52,958 --> 02:48:54,958
Keep it with btc only

2653
02:48:55,677 --> 02:48:57,917
Um, this is a front end for bitcoin core

2654
02:48:59,198 --> 02:49:01,198
And it's much better

2655
02:49:01,518 --> 02:49:05,597
uh, you know, then it's much better than certainly bitcoin course front end and

2656
02:49:07,917 --> 02:49:10,958
Yes, exactly. Oh, yeah, dude anything is better than fucking bitcoin qt

2657
02:49:10,958 --> 02:49:12,958
I think

2658
02:49:15,277 --> 02:49:18,318
Do you think you appreciate bitcoin core more when they like

2659
02:49:19,118 --> 02:49:24,878
Rip out the kernel like when it just becomes a no like well, I don't think uh, one one one issue

2660
02:49:24,878 --> 02:49:30,477
I don't think this was intentional, but it's just a fact of the way c++ and qt work together

2661
02:49:31,198 --> 02:49:35,037
Which is I actually really like the way qt works and we had an original version, but that's an aside

2662
02:49:35,037 --> 02:49:39,058
It's a story for another day. It's just like you can't easily separate the c++

2663
02:49:39,698 --> 02:49:41,378
Source code from the

2664
02:49:41,378 --> 02:49:45,857
Graphical source code. So it's just kind of this bizarre. I think it's a historical accident

2665
02:49:46,498 --> 02:49:54,097
um now the question of whether or not people have had this dream of separating out the consensus from like the wallet from the

2666
02:49:55,618 --> 02:50:00,018
Um, i'm not sure that this has actually worked really well because if you think about it

2667
02:50:00,977 --> 02:50:03,297
In order to be a wallet you need to measure

2668
02:50:03,917 --> 02:50:07,698
Confirmations and in order to do that you need to either validate or you need to

2669
02:50:08,258 --> 02:50:15,537
Dial out to someone who is validating in the case of like spb or similar. So this plan to to modularize everything

2670
02:50:16,177 --> 02:50:19,297
I think has mostly mostly failed people have tried it a lot

2671
02:50:19,777 --> 02:50:23,698
And it sort of doesn't work and then when you when you want to give the experience to the end user

2672
02:50:23,938 --> 02:50:27,378
You have to re-centralize everything back at the end

2673
02:50:28,258 --> 02:50:32,977
and um, I think one thing like the b the success of the bdk wallet

2674
02:50:33,458 --> 02:50:38,977
Is mostly because just bitcoin core sucks overall not to now we got keegs wants to say something

2675
02:50:39,777 --> 02:50:43,938
But I just think bitcoin core sucks in general. I do want to push back on this idea that it doesn't work

2676
02:50:44,097 --> 02:50:48,977
I do agree that there's a lot of actual obstacles in order to separately modularize everything

2677
02:50:49,458 --> 02:50:53,938
Because you are correct that wallets do need to be able to like do kind of just in time block

2678
02:50:53,998 --> 02:50:58,337
Validation and fetching in order to be able to actually perform their functions as a wallet

2679
02:50:58,818 --> 02:51:03,698
But there is a very real concern about trying to uh,

2680
02:51:04,097 --> 02:51:06,657
It's really about consensus divergence, right if you let

2681
02:51:07,217 --> 02:51:10,177
Different implementations implement consensus in different ways

2682
02:51:10,657 --> 02:51:16,518
I I say it like you can prevent it like but if you sort of bless this idea of a bunch of different implementations

2683
02:51:17,378 --> 02:51:24,258
Uh re-implementing consensus you can get chain splits a little bit more aggressively and that's unfortunately the only thing that stops from double spending

2684
02:51:24,258 --> 02:51:25,537
right, so

2685
02:51:25,537 --> 02:51:27,297
Great care has to go into it

2686
02:51:27,297 --> 02:51:31,058
and so I think the reason that you're seeing that it's failed is that there's a lot of

2687
02:51:31,378 --> 02:51:35,537
Sort of inertia like core doesn't have an incentive to make it easier

2688
02:51:36,097 --> 02:51:37,058
because

2689
02:51:37,058 --> 02:51:39,698
You know, why would they they you know that they're

2690
02:51:40,337 --> 02:51:44,258
I I don't want to like like talk ill of core necessarily

2691
02:51:44,337 --> 02:51:48,097
Like I have a fairly neutral view of the the people who contributed to it

2692
02:51:48,177 --> 02:51:51,217
I think overall it's like a noble effort, but you know, they're not perfect

2693
02:51:51,857 --> 02:51:53,537
but either way

2694
02:51:53,618 --> 02:51:54,417
like

2695
02:51:54,417 --> 02:51:57,297
That just for even if you didn't assume any malice at all

2696
02:51:57,297 --> 02:52:01,698
It's like what incentive do they have to make it easier for people to use software? That's not core, right?

2697
02:52:01,698 --> 02:52:03,938
it's like why are they going to commit their own efforts to

2698
02:52:04,818 --> 02:52:07,857
There was there was a pr there was a pr to merge the

2699
02:52:08,558 --> 02:52:12,097
Enforcement rules into core and that was it was declined, right?

2700
02:52:14,177 --> 02:52:20,258
Which enforcement rules are we talking about 5.10? Sorry. No, no, no. No. No, we're just talking about

2701
02:52:21,138 --> 02:52:22,498
Sorry

2702
02:52:22,498 --> 02:52:26,258
My mind just like completely you just went back to bit more. I'm, so sorry

2703
02:52:26,578 --> 02:52:32,417
Yeah, we're talking about a lib bitcoin kernel, which is this attempt to extract the consensus engine outside of bitcoin core. Got it

2704
02:52:35,138 --> 02:52:37,618
Isn't that a court isn't that who's doing that work?

2705
02:52:39,537 --> 02:52:40,657
It's not being done at all

2706
02:52:40,657 --> 02:52:46,737
I'm just saying that like getting a whole huge effort around it and it's like it's first of all technically difficult

2707
02:52:47,138 --> 02:52:50,818
And it also doesn't necessarily help things immediately

2708
02:52:50,898 --> 02:52:56,737
Like it's I think a lot of people sort of recognize it's useful in theory including the devs like who contribute to core itself

2709
02:52:57,217 --> 02:53:02,018
It's just that like there are not a lot of people who really want to like make that their claim to fame, right?

2710
02:53:02,657 --> 02:53:07,938
Yeah, I mean the one thing that's really useful about it is you just you know, at least in theory

2711
02:53:08,578 --> 02:53:14,578
You know which code you can touch and which code you can't and you know, it's like if you touch this code you might cause

2712
02:53:15,297 --> 02:53:19,378
Yeah, I almost think this is worse though because you know, it's like it's perpetuating this

2713
02:53:19,938 --> 02:53:25,217
idea that soft forks or some kind of dark sorcery that third rail that we shouldn't touch and that

2714
02:53:25,777 --> 02:53:30,018
And then if you can you can edit the front end and just tell people that they're getting bitcoin when they're not

2715
02:53:30,258 --> 02:53:32,097
So the front end is also

2716
02:53:32,097 --> 02:53:34,097
like kind of like mission critical

2717
02:53:34,337 --> 02:53:40,498
Uh in a way because it's a way of stealing coins from people. I just want to highlight load bearing in practice

2718
02:53:40,578 --> 02:53:46,818
Like how many people whose actual experience of bitcoin is actually mediated by the bitcoin core wallet front end as opposed to

2719
02:53:46,977 --> 02:53:52,018
Bitcoin Core being embedded in other like we agree back ends for various wallets that they yeah

2720
02:53:53,777 --> 02:53:58,018
An argument made that we should just fucking remove the the gooey front end all together

2721
02:53:58,578 --> 02:54:00,578
I mean I would be in favor of that

2722
02:54:01,217 --> 02:54:03,217
Nobody uses it, right? Yeah

2723
02:54:03,618 --> 02:54:08,177
So, um, and that's how bit window works is it under the hood it downloads like bitcoin d

2724
02:54:08,818 --> 02:54:14,818
And you know bitcoin cli basically and then it and the front end is its own thing. So that's our that's our

2725
02:54:15,618 --> 02:54:17,618
project one of the projects that

2726
02:54:18,097 --> 02:54:22,657
We're doing but I just want to call people's attention to the fact that even if you go back to scaling 3

2727
02:54:23,138 --> 02:54:25,138
Which was in 2016 10 years ago

2728
02:54:25,938 --> 02:54:31,857
People were talking about oh lib bitcoin consensus and oh we're gonna so people have been talking about this for a really long time

2729
02:54:32,417 --> 02:54:35,458
And then rebase hell is is hard enough

2730
02:54:36,258 --> 02:54:38,258
Like you get stuck in rebase hell

2731
02:54:38,977 --> 02:54:42,177
And so I just don't I kind of like don't really see this

2732
02:54:43,058 --> 02:54:45,618
Happening like so much stuff. It's so difficult to do anything

2733
02:54:46,258 --> 02:54:51,058
In bitcoin core anyway, and so this project seems like it's moving at a glacial pace

2734
02:54:51,537 --> 02:54:55,378
Same as everything else stratum v2, whatever. It's just like things are just going very very slow

2735
02:54:56,578 --> 02:54:58,578
um

2736
02:54:59,618 --> 02:55:03,698
Is that because the complexity of the system is getting like I think it's an

2737
02:55:04,258 --> 02:55:08,498
Greater thing. It's I think it's a part of it's part of the

2738
02:55:09,458 --> 02:55:11,458
the bureaucracy

2739
02:55:11,518 --> 02:55:13,058
Bureaucratization

2740
02:55:13,058 --> 02:55:18,258
What do you what do you think of the what do you think of the of the more recent updates made to core?

2741
02:55:18,657 --> 02:55:21,297
Mostly around policy, but which has you know

2742
02:55:21,857 --> 02:55:25,777
Like facilitated better lightning and arc like for example

2743
02:55:26,498 --> 02:55:31,138
Package relay and cluster mempool and these other types of things. I mean keeping up with that paul

2744
02:55:32,097 --> 02:55:35,857
Uh, I have not I mean I I do read when there's I read about what's new

2745
02:55:36,018 --> 02:55:36,258
um

2746
02:55:36,258 --> 02:55:39,878
But I haven't put as much attention into it because at this point the strategy

2747
02:55:40,498 --> 02:55:44,998
In my head is to let just let core be core and then copy that for the L1

2748
02:55:45,538 --> 02:55:50,498
And I also i'm a big believer in like specialization of labor. So even though clearly some people

2749
02:55:51,457 --> 02:55:55,937
Are really really smart and you got like you're like yvonne neumann and you got your richard fineman or whatever you get

2750
02:55:55,937 --> 02:55:57,937
Some people are much smarter than other people

2751
02:55:58,337 --> 02:56:00,577
But really just about everyone in the world

2752
02:56:01,378 --> 02:56:04,518
It's really hard for anyone else to do their job. Even if you're a janitor

2753
02:56:05,057 --> 02:56:07,057
Or you're a fast food worker

2754
02:56:07,618 --> 02:56:14,977
Uh, everyone has a lot of specialized so i'm willing to give core a lot of the benefit of the doubt on many things

2755
02:56:15,697 --> 02:56:20,097
uh, but there are other things where I don't and I as you know, I criticize them and I say they suck and I

2756
02:56:20,097 --> 02:56:22,097
Think the fact that everyone here, you know

2757
02:56:22,638 --> 02:56:28,018
Unanimously agree that the the front end is terrible to the point where we're almost indifferent to deleting it

2758
02:56:28,498 --> 02:56:30,498
Is

2759
02:56:33,857 --> 02:56:38,337
I think no, I think the wallet so the reason it was terrible for hardware wallets, right?

2760
02:56:38,337 --> 02:56:44,178
It was it was kind of difficult to connect the hardware wallet to your bitcoin core wallet and then sparrow came out

2761
02:56:44,817 --> 02:56:50,097
Sparrow came out made that much easier. But today bitcoin core wallet does exactly what sparrow wallet does. So

2762
02:56:52,018 --> 02:56:56,898
Sparrow is clearly better elect things like electrum and sparrow and

2763
02:56:58,898 --> 02:57:00,898
Psp

2764
02:57:03,057 --> 02:57:07,378
Is like what ends up happening is that when core needs to test that they are like

2765
02:57:07,778 --> 02:57:10,018
That the core consensus stuff actually works

2766
02:57:10,337 --> 02:57:17,217
they need a code base to use to test that against and like not it's not just that they need to have like the

2767
02:57:18,097 --> 02:57:19,538
like the

2768
02:57:19,538 --> 02:57:20,817
cli wallet

2769
02:57:20,817 --> 02:57:26,817
Because they might also need to be able to test out psbt stuff and psbt is part of like the bip specs and whatnot

2770
02:57:26,817 --> 02:57:29,138
And that's important that that's all interoperable as well

2771
02:57:30,077 --> 02:57:31,618
psbt

2772
02:57:31,618 --> 02:57:37,618
psbt made bitcoin core like basic like it might yeah, it doesn't have the flow of

2773
02:57:38,258 --> 02:57:43,937
Of sparrow like you don't see the utxs like the UTXOs the way that little chart that he made. It's not as mighty

2774
02:57:45,298 --> 02:57:47,697
But it does the same thing it does exactly the same thing

2775
02:57:48,658 --> 02:57:52,258
It was in the case five years ago, but today bitcoin core's wallet

2776
02:57:52,898 --> 02:57:56,918
You could use exactly the same way as sparrow and electrum, especially

2777
02:57:57,457 --> 02:58:00,418
With signing transactions like, you know keys that are cold

2778
02:58:00,898 --> 02:58:07,138
Um, other than that, I don't recommend anyone really using a hot wallet on their computer. Like I don't think it's smart

2779
02:58:07,857 --> 02:58:09,857
Like I don't think you should keep money on your computer

2780
02:58:11,298 --> 02:58:14,977
Your key should be cold and bitcoin core wasn't really good at

2781
02:58:15,918 --> 02:58:17,057
transacting

2782
02:58:17,057 --> 02:58:22,018
Um with their with people's hardware wallet, so sparrow came in filled that void

2783
02:58:22,577 --> 02:58:28,577
But now it does basically what sparrow does and pretty much the same thing a lot of a lot of ogs don't believe that. Mr

2784
02:58:30,541 --> 02:58:34,781
Right, well, that's not my problem. They should try it out again. They should they should go and

2785
02:58:35,501 --> 02:58:39,021
see how it works because i'm telling you there's really not much of a difference between

2786
02:58:39,421 --> 02:58:43,101
sending a transaction with your cold card using sparrow or

2787
02:58:44,141 --> 02:58:49,261
Or bitcoin core, but that's only because of partially signed bitcoin transactions. That's all that's why

2788
02:58:49,821 --> 02:58:53,021
It's so similar now before psbts. It was the pain in the ass

2789
02:58:53,581 --> 02:58:54,700
Yeah, and that's sort of what I mean

2790
02:58:54,700 --> 02:58:58,620
It's like if you didn't have the bitcoin core wallet at all available to you

2791
02:58:59,101 --> 02:59:03,100
Like officially maintain infrastructure by the project. Maybe it doesn't need to be in the same code base

2792
02:59:03,181 --> 02:59:05,100
I'll grant you that but it's like if

2793
02:59:05,100 --> 02:59:07,260
The bitcoin core as a loose organization

2794
02:59:07,420 --> 02:59:08,301
It's like, you know

2795
02:59:08,301 --> 02:59:13,021
It's also kind of maybe a little bit not the best thing to think of it as a single organization

2796
02:59:13,021 --> 02:59:18,780
But like to the extent that we can if it's not one organization that maintains both of those code bases

2797
02:59:19,260 --> 02:59:21,260
then like it's you have

2798
02:59:21,501 --> 02:59:27,501
Testing conditions or satisfiability conditions of the code that you ship that are not depending on or like that are not

2799
02:59:27,661 --> 02:59:29,661
Accessible to you in your own infrastructure

2800
02:59:30,141 --> 02:59:32,141
And so it's useful for them to maintain it

2801
02:59:32,141 --> 02:59:37,901
But I don't know that it's necessarily like a product that they really have the staff to support as a product

2802
02:59:38,621 --> 02:59:40,780
And it shows right like it's just not a popular choice

2803
02:59:40,780 --> 02:59:42,780
I

2804
02:59:47,581 --> 02:59:53,660
Think the reasons for rejecting bip39 were very very weak and most normal people are very

2805
02:59:54,520 --> 02:59:56,060
intimidated by

2806
02:59:56,060 --> 02:59:59,441
a long string of like weird alphanumeric characters

2807
03:00:00,380 --> 03:00:02,700
And the 12 word thing was actually like the first

2808
03:00:03,581 --> 03:00:05,581
Good like cultural

2809
03:00:06,141 --> 03:00:10,321
Invention that anyone had was rapidly adopted by every other cryptocurrency

2810
03:00:11,020 --> 03:00:13,181
What were the reasonings for rejecting it?

2811
03:00:14,460 --> 03:00:18,460
well, I think it was like something like there's no version number or something and

2812
03:00:19,660 --> 03:00:22,541
You know, you couldn't I saw I would I would think

2813
03:00:24,060 --> 03:00:26,641
That's the only reason I can think of is that it's not that extensible

2814
03:00:28,621 --> 03:00:30,380
And it's kind of like

2815
03:00:30,380 --> 03:00:34,941
Who cares because it's just transforming an integer into 12 words and or 24

2816
03:00:35,660 --> 03:00:38,541
And I thought that was that was really this is like if

2817
03:00:39,341 --> 03:00:41,341
yet another example where

2818
03:00:41,580 --> 03:00:46,621
All these normal people who are like our customers, you know, these are like the people we want to adopt

2819
03:00:46,940 --> 03:00:48,460
We really want them to be

2820
03:00:48,460 --> 03:00:50,460
sovereign users

2821
03:00:50,701 --> 03:00:52,701
the real uh full node

2822
03:00:53,020 --> 03:00:55,341
And hold your own keys and blah blah blah

2823
03:00:55,421 --> 03:00:59,580
And now this is the finally something that they can wrap their head around is writing down 12 words and you can tell them

2824
03:00:59,580 --> 03:01:01,261
that it's like a password

2825
03:01:01,261 --> 03:01:05,020
And uh, there's error correction because you know what I mean if you smudge ink

2826
03:01:05,660 --> 03:01:12,061
It's kind of not that bad because you can usually make out which word it is still even if your handwriting is really really bad

2827
03:01:13,020 --> 03:01:19,660
um, so I thought that was like pretty good and then I thought it was very very revealing that instead of core being like

2828
03:01:19,740 --> 03:01:24,240
Wow, this is great. Let's just add it because it is you know what I mean? It's just like one simple transformation

2829
03:01:25,100 --> 03:01:27,740
You just code the function and then you just say well, here's your

2830
03:01:28,460 --> 03:01:30,460
Here's your wallet feed

2831
03:01:30,940 --> 03:01:35,421
Uh, and then instead so this probably ended up with bdk, which is you know, basically better

2832
03:01:36,701 --> 03:01:42,781
I think there's a bit of context here because at the time when BIP39 came out it was built by satoshi labs

2833
03:01:43,181 --> 03:01:45,421
And electrum, so basically thomas

2834
03:01:45,981 --> 03:01:51,100
And pavol rusnak from trezor and stick. No, that's dick slush

2835
03:01:51,660 --> 03:01:56,940
And that's marek. So these three guys built it and then they disagreed about some very

2836
03:01:57,641 --> 03:02:00,940
Insignificant details about the cryptography that they're going to use

2837
03:02:01,421 --> 03:02:05,600
And that's why electrum for a while decided to use their own implementation of bip39

2838
03:02:06,781 --> 03:02:12,061
Even to this day you can use that for your wallet with a different set of words and it's very weird

2839
03:02:12,701 --> 03:02:20,401
But even past this incident, which I think was the original reason why the core developers decided to stall the adoption of bip39

2840
03:02:21,341 --> 03:02:25,421
The entire industry has decided to use it if you're using a graphene phone

2841
03:02:25,421 --> 03:02:27,421
you can back up your

2842
03:02:28,860 --> 03:02:33,821
Phone basically and unlock it with your 12 words and even past this

2843
03:02:34,761 --> 03:02:38,701
Industry-wide adoption. We haven't seen any serious conversation about

2844
03:02:39,341 --> 03:02:42,860
Getting back to adopting this because it turned out to be a good idea

2845
03:02:43,740 --> 03:02:46,060
and I do understand that to a degree like

2846
03:02:46,620 --> 03:02:53,261
Bitcoin Core is for the people who really know what they're doing and some of them just prefer to back up their private keys on

2847
03:02:53,821 --> 03:02:55,821
A usb flash drive or something

2848
03:02:56,861 --> 03:02:58,861
But it's also a bit backwards

2849
03:02:59,021 --> 03:03:03,821
In some ways like you look at the monero client. It has bip39 built-in

2850
03:03:04,301 --> 03:03:09,120
You look at pretty much everything in the industry except for bitcoin core and it has bip39

2851
03:03:09,900 --> 03:03:11,340
so if anything

2852
03:03:11,340 --> 03:03:17,981
This reminds us that in some ways core is like an ivory tower and they think that they're smarter and better than everyone else

2853
03:03:18,541 --> 03:03:24,141
And then the market just routes around them and they're like, oh we don't care what you think we'll just build but that's that's a good

2854
03:03:24,141 --> 03:03:25,100
thing

2855
03:03:25,100 --> 03:03:27,660
That just shows you that bitcoin core doesn't control bitcoin

2856
03:03:28,780 --> 03:03:33,981
Because to me it means if they're gonna fuck us on something really simple like bip39 like how many other things are they just?

2857
03:03:36,141 --> 03:03:38,301
How are they fucking they're not putting it into bitcoin

2858
03:03:39,340 --> 03:03:44,780
Actually as a matter of fact, I mean so that actually proves the point that bitcoin core can't fuck you because you can just

2859
03:03:47,981 --> 03:03:49,981
Forever

2860
03:03:51,100 --> 03:03:53,421
In fact this means like launching a new coin in

2861
03:03:56,541 --> 03:04:02,940
It just means building a wall for something like bip39 what the fuck it doesn't mean that coins you do you can have your own

2862
03:04:03,160 --> 03:04:09,741
Implementation and that's what I kept telling you to do. You just I don't know why you didn't do you like conflating that with like

2863
03:04:10,380 --> 03:04:12,380
the soft fork

2864
03:04:13,421 --> 03:04:15,421
I'm just

2865
03:04:16,220 --> 03:04:21,660
The only thing that core can do that might actually be a perceived like block to things is consensus stuff, right?

2866
03:04:21,660 --> 03:04:25,660
Like and that's like a very very small section of the codebase in practice

2867
03:04:26,060 --> 03:04:31,100
And people have gotten very very clever at how to actually make it an even smaller section

2868
03:04:31,421 --> 03:04:35,100
But the trouble is is that because we've inherited a design that you know

2869
03:04:35,340 --> 03:04:39,521
Was set in motion before any of the industry had any wisdom about this stuff whatsoever

2870
03:04:39,921 --> 03:04:45,521
There are a lot of warts and like I haven't like I spent a couple of years working on the lightning protocol

2871
03:04:45,600 --> 03:04:47,840
I spent like another year working on

2872
03:04:48,641 --> 03:04:49,600
the

2873
03:04:49,600 --> 03:04:55,600
BitVM stuff and it's like the constructions you have to go after in order to sort of deal with the

2874
03:04:56,301 --> 03:04:59,141
anti-features of consensus are pretty unholy

2875
03:04:59,761 --> 03:05:05,541
And the the trouble is that now it's the stakes are so high that no one wants to actually touch consensus

2876
03:05:06,340 --> 03:05:11,380
Um, and that's like I think people kind of misread a little bit of like core's intentions here

2877
03:05:11,380 --> 03:05:16,660
It's like a lot of these people are just like they're open source developers. They're really really technically savvy

2878
03:05:16,821 --> 03:05:18,821
Yes, they have opinions on the tech

2879
03:05:19,461 --> 03:05:21,701
And that they like will say those loudly

2880
03:05:21,701 --> 03:05:24,741
But like I think a lot of them are just like afraid of the liability like who?

2881
03:05:25,861 --> 03:05:27,780
Who is working on bitcoin core?

2882
03:05:27,780 --> 03:05:34,581
Really wants to be responsible for like a trillion dollar collapse because they happen to touch consensus in the wrong way, right?

2883
03:05:35,220 --> 03:05:41,301
So like I think part of it is you're misreading intent. I completely agree. I don't it just has a wrong side effect

2884
03:05:41,380 --> 03:05:45,701
I'm, not saying i'm not saying that this is a reason that you should like continue to like sort of

2885
03:05:46,261 --> 03:05:48,981
You know treat them as like the high priests of the protocol

2886
03:05:48,981 --> 03:05:50,821
I'm, not saying that you should like trust them in that way

2887
03:05:50,821 --> 03:05:57,861
But I think it's dangerous to misattribute like malice when the real issue is like primarily like apathy

2888
03:05:58,261 --> 03:06:00,900
right or maybe not apathy, but even just like

2889
03:06:01,701 --> 03:06:04,521
Like some version of incompetence or a lack of confidence

2890
03:06:06,021 --> 03:06:10,100
I I disagree. I actually think it's I think it's the opposite. I think that they've

2891
03:06:10,581 --> 03:06:18,261
Fully realized that it is out of their control and that it is the market that must drive demand for a consensus change

2892
03:06:18,741 --> 03:06:23,940
I mean if they were to try to make a consensus change from the top down unless it's something that is you know

2893
03:06:24,421 --> 03:06:26,821
Super mundane or something that has already been

2894
03:06:27,380 --> 03:06:32,180
Kind of convinced in the broader market that it's good. Like I mean, I think a good example is taproot

2895
03:06:32,660 --> 03:06:36,821
Right, they were able to kind of shoehorn in taproot and do it through speedy trial

2896
03:06:36,821 --> 03:06:42,921
But largely in part because the rest of the network was already on board. He had a lot of economic buy-in from a lot of participants

2897
03:06:44,180 --> 03:06:48,660
But even that right, I mean you still needed to build large widespread support

2898
03:06:49,380 --> 03:06:50,581
and so

2899
03:06:50,581 --> 03:06:55,620
yeah, when you're saying when you're saying things like core are afraid to you know, like

2900
03:06:56,180 --> 03:06:58,180
Do a consensus change

2901
03:06:58,261 --> 03:06:59,541
I don't think they're afraid of it

2902
03:06:59,541 --> 03:07:04,261
I think they just know that if they were to try to make a consensus change that didn't have widespread support

2903
03:07:04,261 --> 03:07:06,261
They'd get fucking roasted

2904
03:07:06,420 --> 03:07:09,461
Yeah, but okay. So we can see I mean you brought up taproot as an example

2905
03:07:09,461 --> 03:07:14,661
And it's a good example because it presents the you could present the argument that there might be some like a chicken and egg problem

2906
03:07:14,661 --> 03:07:15,300
here

2907
03:07:15,300 --> 03:07:21,781
Like did taproot gain consensus because bitcoin core was the ones that were that were like championing the the speedy trial activation

2908
03:07:22,261 --> 03:07:26,341
Or did they champion the speedy trial activation because it already had brought consensus like which one was it?

2909
03:07:27,860 --> 03:07:29,860
Long before activations discussions ever

2910
03:07:30,661 --> 03:07:34,500
I was actually part of those activation discussions when they were happening, right like

2911
03:07:34,980 --> 03:07:35,701
the

2912
03:07:35,701 --> 03:07:39,860
Issue was that people like there was a lot of disagreement on exactly how to activate it

2913
03:07:39,940 --> 03:07:45,860
But like literally zero ink was shed about whether or not taproot should be activated at all, right?

2914
03:07:45,940 --> 03:07:47,940
Right and of course

2915
03:07:48,341 --> 03:07:50,420
Dip nine or luke claiming that like, you know

2916
03:07:50,420 --> 03:07:56,420
Locking on timeout false is the same as like miners taking control of the protocol and all this other nonsense that dispute, right?

2917
03:07:56,500 --> 03:08:00,180
But like it was not the case that anyone was like, hey, we don't want taproot

2918
03:08:00,261 --> 03:08:05,540
Like that is never a sentence I heard uttered by anyone on twitter and twitter is a pretty toxic place

2919
03:08:06,420 --> 03:08:08,500
so I mean so keegs you you

2920
03:08:09,540 --> 03:08:10,821
Are in agreement then right?

2921
03:08:10,821 --> 03:08:16,021
I mean core is not the place to make any top-down decisions and consensus changes

2922
03:08:16,180 --> 03:08:19,380
It's not necessarily because they're afraid to make those consensus changes

2923
03:08:19,380 --> 03:08:24,661
I'm sure they have their own opinions and ideas around which ones would be best or you know, like

2924
03:08:25,781 --> 03:08:27,701
improve the protocol

2925
03:08:27,701 --> 03:08:30,180
But it's not their place to even make those right there

2926
03:08:30,341 --> 03:08:33,221
They kind of have to wait for the market itself to resolve

2927
03:08:33,380 --> 03:08:37,461
Well, I really have to put back on this because I think this is really an unfair

2928
03:08:37,860 --> 03:08:40,581
For an inaccurate frame which is to say

2929
03:08:41,540 --> 03:08:44,980
What i'm my point of view is that we haven't had any soft walks activate

2930
03:08:45,461 --> 03:08:50,581
I don't think anyone actually knows at this point how to do it versus how not to do it

2931
03:08:50,980 --> 03:08:54,500
And so anyone just saying like it should be like this or it should be like that

2932
03:08:55,380 --> 03:08:57,781
I think I just have to reject all of that. Like there is no

2933
03:08:58,661 --> 03:09:00,661
No one knows and I think actually

2934
03:09:01,860 --> 03:09:05,860
At least need to convince 51% of the hash rate no matter what we all agree on that

2935
03:09:05,860 --> 03:09:07,380
Well, of course, I have this as you probably know

2936
03:09:07,380 --> 03:09:10,021
I have this thing the Core Untouched Soft Fork where you could

2937
03:09:10,581 --> 03:09:14,101
Do the soft fork in the second piece of software as like a meta protocol, right?

2938
03:09:14,341 --> 03:09:17,461
And and then that would let you soft fork bitcoin without changing bitcoin core

2939
03:09:17,940 --> 03:09:21,300
But even with that you still need 50 more percent of the hash rate or more. I think but

2940
03:09:22,101 --> 03:09:24,420
It's not just bitcoin core. That sucks. It's also

2941
03:09:24,980 --> 03:09:29,540
The miners also kind of suck basically, which is that everything sucks. Everyone sucks

2942
03:09:30,180 --> 03:09:32,821
This shit exactly you guys stuck

2943
03:09:33,380 --> 03:09:35,380
So so

2944
03:09:36,180 --> 03:09:39,060
Sucks the trouble is that in order just one of those days

2945
03:09:40,661 --> 03:09:46,740
I hate decentralization. I mean it is bizarre because out around the world so difficult to coordinate these mother

2946
03:09:46,740 --> 03:09:51,461
You're all a bunch of fucking retards. If you all just ran paul's thing. We would all be in fucking kumbaya land

2947
03:09:51,940 --> 03:09:56,821
I think we probably would if I could just outreach to every single motherfucker mining on bitcoin

2948
03:09:57,540 --> 03:10:00,761
We don't need to because the pools could be the specialist intermediaries

2949
03:10:01,161 --> 03:10:04,521
And then even for many of these soft forks including BIP300/301

2950
03:10:05,161 --> 03:10:07,161
Uh, this is just like miners

2951
03:10:07,401 --> 03:10:13,401
Maybe making more money or having more money like overall so you would think like that would be right

2952
03:10:14,521 --> 03:10:20,120
But instead everyone is afraid to stick their neck out for literally anything even something like OP_CAT

2953
03:10:20,680 --> 03:10:27,800
It's very again because you can't put the cart before the horse like you can't activate a soft fork that nobody wants

2954
03:10:28,601 --> 03:10:33,000
But isn't it the other way around like how do you know really know what people want I don't think it is

2955
03:10:33,161 --> 03:10:34,761
I mean, I don't think it is

2956
03:10:34,761 --> 03:10:40,601
I think you need to have actual user buy-in because I mean first of all if nobody wants it nobody's enforcing it

2957
03:10:40,680 --> 03:10:42,841
So I don't think this has ever really been the case though

2958
03:10:42,841 --> 03:10:48,360
So for example SegWit was mostly to support lightning, but there was no lightning when SegWit activated in the past

2959
03:10:49,321 --> 03:10:54,281
But also SegWit also fixed other problems in the past all the soft forks were

2960
03:10:54,841 --> 03:10:59,321
Not controversial and the fact that SegWit was had nothing to do with the details of SegWit

2961
03:11:00,601 --> 03:11:05,961
But even SegWit was by and large not that controversial, right? I mean you had

2962
03:11:08,841 --> 03:11:11,420
You had the big blockers who viewed it as controversial

2963
03:11:12,120 --> 03:11:15,721
But you see the thing is that's the thing you might discount those people

2964
03:11:15,800 --> 03:11:17,401
But everyone else was basically right to me

2965
03:11:17,401 --> 03:11:23,321
The opposite thing isn't controversial either and that it should have been removed a long time ago and that there even shouldn't be really any standard

2966
03:11:23,880 --> 03:11:25,880
Limits other than denial of service

2967
03:11:26,521 --> 03:11:28,841
So I think that the whole concept was a mistake

2968
03:11:29,480 --> 03:11:34,920
and I think it should have been removed back in 2014 or whatever when this issue first came up and I

2969
03:11:35,081 --> 03:11:39,081
I was breading the fact that one of the first things I did as a whole like the entire

2970
03:11:39,721 --> 03:11:41,880
Offroad. No, no, no, no, it's the same the limit

2971
03:11:42,440 --> 03:11:44,440
The biting limit. Yeah, exactly

2972
03:11:45,240 --> 03:11:47,240
Yeah, I agree with you

2973
03:11:47,800 --> 03:11:49,800
I think it's about the policy to begin with

2974
03:11:50,601 --> 03:11:55,240
Yeah, exactly and whoever pays for the block space is the rightful owner. I'm, sorry, go ahead

2975
03:11:56,521 --> 03:12:00,761
I was just saying policy diverging from consensus is just in general not a good thing, right?

2976
03:12:00,841 --> 03:12:05,000
Like it causes a lot of misunderstandings about what the protocol is

2977
03:12:05,081 --> 03:12:09,721
It doesn't actually help anything as is exemplified by the fact that people direct submit to minors

2978
03:12:09,800 --> 03:12:14,040
Now nobody can actually predict what the next block is. So people's fee estimation is all fucked up

2979
03:12:14,281 --> 03:12:17,721
So now lightning and other layer two protocols can't actually get their justice

2980
03:12:17,940 --> 03:12:21,880
Transactions submitted in the same way and then people lose money and everybody is sad

2981
03:12:22,601 --> 03:12:24,601
Like it's not a good thing

2982
03:12:25,880 --> 03:12:31,081
Asterisk in theory, I don't think any of that has actually happened in the direct mind theory

2983
03:12:32,201 --> 03:12:35,800
We can cope about that. We've made changes off of far less

2984
03:12:36,761 --> 03:12:43,240
Like plausible theoretical attacks. I'm just saying like well, we could also we could also talk about that

2985
03:12:43,240 --> 03:12:49,721
Nobody actually gave a shit about fee estimation because core's fee estimation algorithm is complete dogshit and everybody uses mental spaces

2986
03:12:50,360 --> 03:12:51,721
completely

2987
03:12:51,721 --> 03:12:57,880
No, and there's actually there's a very simple thing like even if the fee estimation from core is dogshit

2988
03:12:58,281 --> 03:13:04,601
Right the fact that core can still at least nominally predict what the next block looks like helps external fee

2989
03:13:04,901 --> 03:13:07,261
Estimation algorithms do their job more successfully

2990
03:13:08,221 --> 03:13:15,341
That's true unless unless some gigantic spam wave hits the mempool in which case they're completely out of their fucking depth

2991
03:13:16,540 --> 03:13:19,101
Well, no, no, but but gigs is saying, you know

2992
03:13:19,101 --> 03:13:25,261
If course mempool by default is showing all of those transactions and an external algorithm that is

2993
03:13:25,581 --> 03:13:32,141
Looking at those mempool items those unconfirmed transactions and doing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll still see it, right?

2994
03:13:32,300 --> 03:13:33,740
Right

2995
03:13:33,740 --> 03:13:40,060
So ultimately you still want to have yeah, exactly. Yeah, ultimately you still want as close to consensus as possible. So even if

2996
03:13:40,940 --> 03:13:46,940
Core's built-in algorithm is shit. Somebody else creating their own algorithm externally has the most like accurate data set to

2997
03:13:47,581 --> 03:13:50,940
the parts through wonder if uh, I wonder if if if

2998
03:13:51,661 --> 03:13:53,661
if we're gonna see

2999
03:13:53,661 --> 03:13:55,180
a

3000
03:13:55,180 --> 03:13:58,060
If we're gonna see OP_RETURN go up to one megabyte limit

3001
03:13:59,021 --> 03:14:01,021
Eventually

3002
03:14:01,021 --> 03:14:04,940
So right now it's still stuck at 100 kilobytes because of the transaction size limit

3003
03:14:04,940 --> 03:14:09,500
But then you got these retards with their dog mode shit. Is that also policy or is that?

3004
03:14:10,781 --> 03:14:16,940
That's policy. So that's yeah the the transactions. Well, yeah, of course it is because there's one megabyte operations that have already been confirmed

3005
03:14:17,740 --> 03:14:20,221
but the the primary problem there is that

3006
03:14:21,021 --> 03:14:22,060
the

3007
03:14:22,060 --> 03:14:24,380
packing algorithm for core templates

3008
03:14:25,420 --> 03:14:27,420
isn't good when you have

3009
03:14:29,021 --> 03:14:34,060
Most of the block being consumed by a single transaction. It's hard to pack

3010
03:14:34,860 --> 03:14:39,101
In you know pack around a very large transaction. So they cap it at 100k

3011
03:14:39,821 --> 03:14:41,341
100 kilobyte

3012
03:14:41,341 --> 03:14:43,341
And I guess that helps the algorithm

3013
03:14:43,821 --> 03:14:45,180
um

3014
03:14:45,180 --> 03:14:48,461
But you know, I guess if if enough people are

3015
03:14:49,341 --> 03:14:52,880
Consuming block space with four makers and one megabyte operations

3016
03:14:53,841 --> 03:14:58,081
Then I would assume that that would be a forcing function for core to

3017
03:14:58,721 --> 03:15:03,040
that policy too, and then we're just back in this whole fucking retarded loop of like

3018
03:15:03,581 --> 03:15:05,581
Arguing, you know whether or not that's

3019
03:15:06,401 --> 03:15:08,401
bending to the will of spam

3020
03:15:08,721 --> 03:15:11,521
Man, that's why that's why I think we should I think we need to rip the band-aid off

3021
03:15:11,601 --> 03:15:14,401
I think we literally just need to just remove all policy and just be done with it

3022
03:15:14,880 --> 03:15:17,841
That's that's what I was hoping was gonna. I agree as well

3023
03:15:18,401 --> 03:15:20,401
I think also if the 110 people

3024
03:15:20,480 --> 03:15:22,240
Shouldn't they suffer if they are wrong?

3025
03:15:22,240 --> 03:15:26,401
Like shouldn't it just be the worst if not that it would be that would be the reason to do it

3026
03:15:26,721 --> 03:15:30,401
but you should say well, hey, listen, we were trying to work with you on this OP_RETURN thing and then you

3027
03:15:31,360 --> 03:15:33,281
Went rogue with this 110

3028
03:15:33,281 --> 03:15:35,520
Oh, that would just be like that would just be like a cherry on top

3029
03:15:35,520 --> 03:15:39,760
I think we should just do it for other reasons. Were we were we trying to work with them with the opportunity?

3030
03:15:39,920 --> 03:15:42,560
No, I feel like I feel like we were not

3031
03:15:42,800 --> 03:15:49,440
The net result of this 110 stuff is that luke finally leaves development like that would not be the worst result I agree

3032
03:15:50,640 --> 03:15:54,800
Also, yeah, we did we did negotiate a little bit wicked because they were just gonna straight up remove

3033
03:15:55,040 --> 03:15:59,920
Um the data carrier size configuration and they just brought it back as like a deprecated

3034
03:16:00,961 --> 03:16:03,841
Deprecated. Yeah, they undeprecated it. Oh, okay

3035
03:16:04,481 --> 03:16:05,601
Yeah

3036
03:16:05,601 --> 03:16:10,961
Yeah, so not not even thought figurable, but it's not even deprecated anymore at one point. I suggested

3037
03:16:11,920 --> 03:16:17,601
Letting the terrorists win and I was gonna say well, hey listen since it doesn't matter and they direct submit to minors

3038
03:16:17,601 --> 03:16:18,560
anyway

3039
03:16:18,560 --> 03:16:21,841
why don't you guys just put it back and you know, like

3040
03:16:22,721 --> 03:16:29,601
Paul like you I think you don't want that. You don't want that bad misaligned incentive, you know, if you've got like

3041
03:16:30,081 --> 03:16:31,601
I completely agree

3042
03:16:31,601 --> 03:16:33,601
Or smaller miners who are just running

3043
03:16:34,321 --> 03:16:36,560
Like some people are angry other people

3044
03:16:37,201 --> 03:16:42,001
Are indifferent so I know it's so stupid I agree but the core does all this stupid stuff all the time

3045
03:16:42,001 --> 03:16:44,001
like every single soft fork is like

3046
03:16:44,300 --> 03:16:46,721
Indifferent to the old people who don't even notice it

3047
03:16:47,361 --> 03:16:48,560
and then

3048
03:16:48,560 --> 03:16:53,920
It helps whoever wants the soft fork. So we should really just be doing them all we should be collecting them all

3049
03:16:54,160 --> 03:16:56,560
Gotta catch them all 151 soft. No

3050
03:17:00,560 --> 03:17:04,721
The trouble is is that I I think that bit 110 is actually counterproductive to its own ends

3051
03:17:05,040 --> 03:17:08,481
That's the thing it's like if it actually accomplished what it's set out to

3052
03:17:09,040 --> 03:17:12,721
I'd be I probably have a different stance on it than I do. But the reality is is that

3053
03:17:13,680 --> 03:17:15,601
It what?

3054
03:17:15,601 --> 03:17:22,081
No, I would never yeah, I would never it's a terrible goal a terrible implementation and it's self-contradictory and it doesn't even achieve

3055
03:17:22,321 --> 03:17:25,760
Exactly, that's how to achieve so it's just by baffling on so many levels

3056
03:17:27,201 --> 03:17:29,841
He's saying if it actually achieved what the fuck it said it was gonna achieve

3057
03:17:30,241 --> 03:17:35,361
Like you're agreeing with each other which is which is what though, which is what i'm just trying to define stopping the spam

3058
03:17:35,440 --> 03:17:37,841
We're moving the day peg from the main chain. Come on

3059
03:17:40,560 --> 03:17:44,481
That like spam is an incoherent idea in a permissionless network

3060
03:17:45,520 --> 03:17:47,361
Yeah, we all know

3061
03:17:47,361 --> 03:17:53,201
Yeah, everyone here preaching to the choir. I mean to me to me spam is literally everybody else's transaction except mine

3062
03:17:53,361 --> 03:17:54,721
So like that's it

3063
03:17:54,721 --> 03:17:57,361
Jeez, uh, do you have something to do with star nine?

3064
03:17:58,321 --> 03:18:03,440
Uh, I was a co-founder of star nine, but is there is there is there a turmoil of star nine right now?

3065
03:18:04,160 --> 03:18:05,841
uh, I

3066
03:18:05,841 --> 03:18:11,121
Don't know i'm not there day to day. I could ask my brother who still runs it. Um, or he's the

3067
03:18:12,221 --> 03:18:19,040
Cto, but he's not very loud on twitter. He is like basically comes and talks, you know, maybe once a year

3068
03:18:19,280 --> 03:18:21,280
That's like the perfect person to ask

3069
03:18:21,280 --> 03:18:26,961
I'm working. What do you think of start nines like pretty clear first day?

3070
03:18:28,794 --> 03:18:33,194
um, I think base I have to be careful what I say here like the

3071
03:18:34,394 --> 03:18:36,394
what I from what I understand about

3072
03:18:37,114 --> 03:18:39,354
the personalities involved is that

3073
03:18:40,554 --> 03:18:44,014
The I don't think that they're actually genuinely in support of 110

3074
03:18:44,714 --> 03:18:47,834
But I do think that it is in their interests

3075
03:18:48,954 --> 03:18:50,794
for

3076
03:18:50,794 --> 03:18:57,673
The I mean, they're they're I know they're they're making record. They're making notes in a box, baby to promote notes in a box

3077
03:18:58,874 --> 03:19:01,374
The let me just say this there is an incentive

3078
03:19:02,553 --> 03:19:03,753
for

3079
03:19:03,753 --> 03:19:06,154
them to promote any

3080
03:19:07,433 --> 03:19:09,034
public perception

3081
03:19:09,034 --> 03:19:11,034
of nodes

3082
03:19:11,354 --> 03:19:14,474
Individual power i'll leave it at that. Oh, yeah

3083
03:19:14,954 --> 03:19:15,834
and

3084
03:19:15,834 --> 03:19:22,474
So it's not really about 110. I don't think I think it is about this idea that nodes have power and like the extent to

3085
03:19:22,474 --> 03:19:24,474
Which that's true, but it's also

3086
03:19:24,954 --> 03:19:29,834
There's the way that I see it going right now is that it's like if

3087
03:19:30,874 --> 03:19:37,433
false, but useful narratives crop up they will sort of not go contested and if uh,

3088
03:19:37,993 --> 03:19:40,954
false, but not useful or like like counter like, um

3089
03:19:41,813 --> 03:19:44,573
Adversarial narratives go up then those will go contested

3090
03:19:44,954 --> 03:19:51,914
And so like those two things together end up in a situation where it kind of distorts the real reality of the situation

3091
03:19:52,874 --> 03:19:59,274
By the way, I watched mechanics latest video and apparently he still has quite a few private shares and

3092
03:19:59,914 --> 03:20:06,234
Start nine. So he's also benefiting from like, okay. I will say this to sort of dispute that I mean

3093
03:20:06,794 --> 03:20:09,514
I'm sure that it's not zero, but it was never

3094
03:20:10,234 --> 03:20:11,114
um

3095
03:20:11,114 --> 03:20:13,114
Significant to begin with

3096
03:20:13,353 --> 03:20:17,834
Well, I mean, come on. It's all relative right mechanic might it might be significant to mechanic

3097
03:20:18,954 --> 03:20:20,313
fair

3098
03:20:20,393 --> 03:20:21,993
Are you calling him poor?

3099
03:20:21,993 --> 03:20:26,794
No, he's calling his stake in the company. No, that's gonna be you wicked duck kings

3100
03:20:28,474 --> 03:20:32,154
No, no, no kings are calling him poor not me, of course not me come on, bro

3101
03:20:32,234 --> 03:20:38,234
I'm the poorest of all of us. No, i'm not saying i'm not saying i'm saying like it I even think it's insignificant relative to

3102
03:20:38,794 --> 03:20:40,794
uh mechanics

3103
03:20:41,273 --> 03:20:42,713
Like me

3104
03:20:42,713 --> 03:20:46,234
His other holdings in other things. No, of course, of course

3105
03:20:46,394 --> 03:20:51,754
That's why he's talking about it on his fucking youtube video every time he yeah, I get it for sure

3106
03:20:52,794 --> 03:20:54,314
the

3107
03:20:54,314 --> 03:20:57,353
Why why I mean, why would mechanic be following so closely?

3108
03:20:58,073 --> 03:21:03,034
The quarterly earnings of start nine if his holdings weren't meaningful to himself

3109
03:21:03,913 --> 03:21:05,114
so

3110
03:21:05,114 --> 03:21:09,273
Because I I have a little bit more insight into the personality that is behind mechanic, right?

3111
03:21:10,073 --> 03:21:14,473
Um because i've met him i've worked alongside him. I had

3112
03:21:15,114 --> 03:21:21,273
Large numbers of disagreements with him while he was there and he left before I did and in fact he was

3113
03:21:21,993 --> 03:21:23,594
fired

3114
03:21:23,594 --> 03:21:25,594
from the company

3115
03:21:26,633 --> 03:21:29,273
Uh, I didn't do the firing either right, um

3116
03:21:29,913 --> 03:21:31,273
so

3117
03:21:31,273 --> 03:21:36,394
I like I have a lot of like I have a lot more temperance towards

3118
03:21:37,034 --> 03:21:41,754
You know the like the towards the the rest of like the senior team

3119
03:21:42,314 --> 03:21:45,913
But I I will not mince words about this I do not think that mechanic is

3120
03:21:46,234 --> 03:21:48,954
Someone that you should listen to about just about anything

3121
03:21:49,913 --> 03:21:51,273
candidly

3122
03:21:51,273 --> 03:21:53,594
um preaching to the choir man, what

3123
03:21:54,954 --> 03:21:56,794
You're preaching to the choir

3124
03:21:56,794 --> 03:22:01,993
I I still watch every single one of his videos. Yeah, but do you actually listen to his advice when he says no

3125
03:22:02,073 --> 03:22:04,073
Yeah, all right

3126
03:22:04,154 --> 03:22:07,433
It's like entertainment right? It's just kind of like going to the circus to watch the clowns

3127
03:22:08,394 --> 03:22:14,473
I want to see what the other plebs are hearing and so that I can understand, you know, what type of propaganda they're

3128
03:22:15,353 --> 03:22:19,594
Oh my god, they're repeating. I have it's very hard to understand, you know

3129
03:22:19,674 --> 03:22:23,514
Like out of all the weird chapters in bitcoin history. I do think that this

3130
03:22:24,473 --> 03:22:32,234
This luke OP_RETURN is probably the chapter. I understand the least well, like all the other stuff is

3131
03:22:33,193 --> 03:22:37,913
Pretty easy to understand like okay roger veer lives japan. He has a great internet connection

3132
03:22:38,954 --> 03:22:44,154
Oh, it's because we're getting more and more retarded and you're just such a giga brain. You can't you can't make

3133
03:22:47,353 --> 03:22:49,353
The ramblings of lesser life forms

3134
03:22:49,674 --> 03:22:54,954
We have to like open our minds to the possibility that there's like something that all of us have missed

3135
03:22:55,274 --> 03:22:59,033
I don't think that's the case. But like really like I just don't understand

3136
03:22:59,193 --> 03:23:03,114
You know, you understand what i'm trying to say like why are they even doing this for themselves?

3137
03:23:05,114 --> 03:23:10,554
Paul I used to think that too but like because here's the thing like luke is in some ways extremely smart, right?

3138
03:23:10,633 --> 03:23:11,674
like

3139
03:23:11,674 --> 03:23:15,913
He was the person who came up with the fact that you can't actually do hard forks

3140
03:23:16,313 --> 03:23:17,114
that like

3141
03:23:17,114 --> 03:23:22,954
When the 0.8 to 0.9 release got kicked off and there was an accidental hard fork and the rest of core wanted to just like

3142
03:23:23,033 --> 03:23:25,834
Tell everyone to upgrade he was the one who sort of set that precedent

3143
03:23:26,073 --> 03:23:30,954
He was the one who came up with the scheme to make SegWit into a soft fork instead of a hard fork

3144
03:23:30,954 --> 03:23:34,153
Like he does have a lot of technical chops, but he's also

3145
03:23:34,794 --> 03:23:35,913
crazy

3146
03:23:35,913 --> 03:23:39,114
And so why are all these other people going along with it?

3147
03:23:39,274 --> 03:23:43,274
Like they don't go along because they're also fucking crazy. There's a lot of crazy people

3148
03:23:43,353 --> 03:23:46,954
I know but they don't go along with his like masturbation is a sin worse than murder

3149
03:23:47,434 --> 03:23:51,674
Literally, everyone just kind of chuckles along. They say that's our weird autistic friend. Luke. He's

3150
03:23:52,234 --> 03:23:54,234
weird sometimes

3151
03:23:54,313 --> 03:23:55,033
Like like you said

3152
03:23:55,033 --> 03:23:59,753
there's a lot of times where he's pointed out something that everyone else missed and the thing is that

3153
03:24:00,234 --> 03:24:06,794
That kind of makes people kind of treat him as this sort of like mystical like kung fu master that might know something

3154
03:24:06,873 --> 03:24:12,073
but I so and during the last cycle with the 2021 fork of like

3155
03:24:12,473 --> 03:24:17,913
Taproot right when he was arguing about like the lock-in on true lock-in on timeout true versus false debate

3156
03:24:18,313 --> 03:24:23,913
And deciding like what was uh, you know minor activated what was user activated like I gave him a lot more deference

3157
03:24:24,313 --> 03:24:27,753
but like five years have passed and he's only gotten more like

3158
03:24:28,373 --> 03:24:32,714
incoherent or like just you know, it's like strange in his viewpoints and

3159
03:24:33,193 --> 03:24:37,593
Also has gotten less willing to actually justify them like he it used to be

3160
03:24:38,073 --> 03:24:45,274
He would actually lay out his arguments and I think maybe something happened when he got all his bitcoin stolen or whatever that like

3161
03:24:45,753 --> 03:24:47,753
He just kind of went off the deep end

3162
03:24:47,834 --> 03:24:49,834
Not he grabbed he grabbed

3163
03:24:51,494 --> 03:24:52,954
Incorrect

3164
03:24:52,954 --> 03:24:55,994
No, you're saying he's correct. No, I said I said he snapped

3165
03:24:57,913 --> 03:25:04,313
So like I mean so to your point paul I think there there's always a possibility that there's something that we missed but like

3166
03:25:04,554 --> 03:25:07,913
You know, I keep looking at this over and over again, and I don't

3167
03:25:08,554 --> 03:25:11,114
Yeah, because that's what concerns me. It's kind of like

3168
03:25:11,834 --> 03:25:15,434
I don't you know how like um, I don't remember what card game it is

3169
03:25:15,514 --> 03:25:18,473
But it's like there's a card game where it's like if you lose every round

3170
03:25:19,114 --> 03:25:21,114
You actually win the whole match

3171
03:25:21,913 --> 03:25:26,073
But if you lose like more than half you lose it's kind of like we're losing

3172
03:25:26,153 --> 03:25:30,234
it's like every piece of it doesn't make any sense and all the previous stuff like even like

3173
03:25:30,873 --> 03:25:32,873
Block size war made perfect sense

3174
03:25:32,873 --> 03:25:35,753
Michael sailor like I get it that he's like he's he's very rich

3175
03:25:36,633 --> 03:25:42,174
And he's kind of he's media personality. So so I kind of love that even when I really disagree

3176
03:25:43,033 --> 03:25:45,033
I can usually like wrap my head around

3177
03:25:45,593 --> 03:25:49,913
What's happening? But in this one? I just it just seems totally bizarre to me

3178
03:25:50,794 --> 03:25:58,073
Because paul you're trying to argue you're trying to rationalize it from the like logic of somebody who is looking at it from

3179
03:25:59,033 --> 03:26:02,954
Like a technical perspective. I I I mean like give me give me

3180
03:26:03,913 --> 03:26:08,473
Give me like one thing that's like happening here. That's like baffling you and I promise you I can help you like understand it

3181
03:26:08,473 --> 03:26:10,234
From the perspective. We talked about it

3182
03:26:10,234 --> 03:26:15,434
It's very very consistent if you actually like realize like how he's thinking about things and it all stem

3183
03:26:15,674 --> 03:26:18,633
I mean, i'll just be straight up with you. It literally all stems from like his

3184
03:26:19,193 --> 03:26:24,714
His religious perspective like it's it's he's a hardcore. It's very super hardcore catholic

3185
03:26:24,873 --> 03:26:27,274
he truly believes that anybody who deviates from

3186
03:26:27,913 --> 03:26:33,274
Like tradition and conservatism is kind of like changing things and they're the ones that are just funny

3187
03:26:34,473 --> 03:26:41,514
Which is funny because he's a cedevacantist and like the most catholic thing is following the pope and that's like very traditional

3188
03:26:41,994 --> 03:26:43,994
At the same time

3189
03:26:44,073 --> 03:26:48,954
They believe that there is no other pope because the after the the second vatican the popes, uh,

3190
03:26:48,954 --> 03:26:53,514
They started basically teaching heresy, which means that they're not popes because popes can't teach

3191
03:26:54,554 --> 03:26:57,434
I was standing next to luke and he said like he was like

3192
03:26:57,514 --> 03:27:01,513
oh, obviously we could do such and such as a soft fork and then he said and of course, obviously

3193
03:27:02,074 --> 03:27:04,074
we haven't had a real pope since

3194
03:27:04,934 --> 03:27:06,934
1971 or whatever pope it was

3195
03:27:07,194 --> 03:27:09,194
And so you're just like kind of like in the same breath

3196
03:27:09,353 --> 03:27:13,353
You're just kind of like confused but the confusing thing to answer your question is that

3197
03:27:14,234 --> 03:27:16,234
one of the most bizarre things is that

3198
03:27:16,694 --> 03:27:17,754
110

3199
03:27:17,754 --> 03:27:19,754
Doesn't do anything to prevent

3200
03:27:20,074 --> 03:27:23,513
You know spam on the blockchain. So why doesn't make any sense?

3201
03:27:23,913 --> 03:27:24,153
All right

3202
03:27:24,153 --> 03:27:28,473
So i'll tell i'll tell you i'll literally tell you from luke's perspective what 110 does what 110 does

3203
03:27:28,794 --> 03:27:31,913
Is it washes his hands in the eyes of jesus christ?

3204
03:27:32,554 --> 03:27:34,554
That we are not condemning

3205
03:27:35,114 --> 03:27:42,713
Uh child pornography on the blockchain because if he does not support 110, uh, he he will be condemned to hell because he is

3206
03:27:43,273 --> 03:27:47,353
He's not standing up against you know viles things being on the chain, but you laugh

3207
03:27:47,833 --> 03:27:51,434
That's literally what it is. Like that's why he's so passionate about it because if he does not

3208
03:27:52,074 --> 03:27:55,913
You're saying he has to keep taking every action. So if we do like a bit 110 b

3209
03:27:56,634 --> 03:27:58,473
Or like if we just do an endless list

3210
03:27:58,473 --> 03:28:02,794
He has to support them all because it's just a this is these are all just tests

3211
03:28:03,033 --> 03:28:05,033
This is he's being tested in this life

3212
03:28:05,434 --> 03:28:09,513
If they work towards like catholic beliefs and like a catholic belief system

3213
03:28:09,513 --> 03:28:12,953
Then yeah, like if it's coherent with his internal belief system, then yeah, he will support it

3214
03:28:12,953 --> 03:28:15,033
Probably doesn't it distract isn't it better for?

3215
03:28:15,814 --> 03:28:19,374
Catholicism if he doesn't waste his time with frivolous

3216
03:28:20,713 --> 03:28:24,314
What about doing you know, what about doing god's work on earth?

3217
03:28:25,593 --> 03:28:27,593
He's doing god's work

3218
03:28:27,833 --> 03:28:30,234
Preventing he's fighting against you know

3219
03:28:31,194 --> 03:28:33,353
Cp enjoyers and it makes some sense

3220
03:28:33,994 --> 03:28:38,314
They gotta hand it to you that it makes some but it implies that he has to just keep doing this forever

3221
03:28:38,393 --> 03:28:40,393
But I suppose that doesn't matter. Yeah

3222
03:28:41,114 --> 03:28:45,593
Well, yeah, but you know, that's also kind of what christianity teaches is that you kind of have to keep doing it forever

3223
03:28:45,754 --> 03:28:51,533
It's a never-ending battle. Yeah, but you but even in other christians would recognize. Oh, I have to prioritize

3224
03:28:52,074 --> 03:28:54,074
You got to pick your battles and this battle is

3225
03:28:54,634 --> 03:28:57,033
Yeah, no, I agree with you. I 100 agree with you

3226
03:28:57,033 --> 03:29:01,033
I'm, just you know, like if you if you look at it from the perspective of like some hardcore

3227
03:29:01,194 --> 03:29:04,814
I take everything super literal autist like yeah, there's no prioritization

3228
03:29:04,874 --> 03:29:08,554
It's like kind of like you just got to deal with whatever god puts in front of you, right?

3229
03:29:08,554 --> 03:29:13,593
And so like this is luke's battle like his battle is uh, stopping c-sam spreaders or whatever

3230
03:29:15,194 --> 03:29:17,194
Even though bit content doesn't stop it

3231
03:29:18,634 --> 03:29:24,234
You know, it also it also he washes his hands clean of the fact that he's also not like endorsing it or condemning

3232
03:29:24,473 --> 03:29:29,674
At least he's trying exactly he's trying I think every technical person also knows better than to fall for the

3233
03:29:30,314 --> 03:29:32,314
the cease like it's like

3234
03:29:32,393 --> 03:29:34,393
there's only two options like

3235
03:29:35,674 --> 03:29:39,434
Vet every single vector of bytes that goes across the internet

3236
03:29:40,153 --> 03:29:41,353
somehow

3237
03:29:41,353 --> 03:29:44,953
Even that doesn't make any sense because you can xor so that's the thing is technical people know

3238
03:29:45,033 --> 03:29:47,833
It's just a dead end. Even if you wanted to it, you can't even

3239
03:29:48,794 --> 03:29:54,634
Yeah, and and luke has never denied it luke has just said that if this behavior continues like there's other things we can do

3240
03:29:55,114 --> 03:29:57,913
And you know, he's brought up. Um firing the miners

3241
03:29:57,913 --> 03:30:02,794
He's also brought up uh reintroducing transaction whitelists like so in his mind

3242
03:30:02,794 --> 03:30:04,473
Like it's just like it's like yeah

3243
03:30:04,473 --> 03:30:08,393
It's a never-ending battle like you you take a jab at them see what happens if they keep doing it

3244
03:30:08,393 --> 03:30:10,234
Then you take another jab at them

3245
03:30:10,234 --> 03:30:13,674
See what happens as long as you're not just being complacent and just like taking it

3246
03:30:17,994 --> 03:30:25,674
Yeah, that makes sense nico, how's it going hi, how's everybody doing can I give you an example with something I actually saw irl

3247
03:30:26,314 --> 03:30:29,194
Uh in new york city of what bip 110 is going to do

3248
03:30:29,913 --> 03:30:31,273
so

3249
03:30:31,273 --> 03:30:37,114
in 2020 from 2020 to 2021 like in the middle of 2021, I didn't drive a cab because I

3250
03:30:37,434 --> 03:30:40,554
Whatever for whatever reason right? It was we had covid going on

3251
03:30:41,273 --> 03:30:44,473
But probably one of the first saturdays after I started driving a cab

3252
03:30:45,353 --> 03:30:46,794
again

3253
03:30:46,794 --> 03:30:53,033
I picked up it was like I don't know saturday afternoon. It was like a 60 70 year old woman. She this woman

3254
03:30:53,674 --> 03:30:55,033
older woman

3255
03:30:55,033 --> 03:30:59,273
She just bought a vacuum on fifth avenue. Okay, forget about that part, right?

3256
03:31:00,074 --> 03:31:04,874
It's the way she presented herself. She was wearing one of those regular masks

3257
03:31:05,434 --> 03:31:07,434
Then an n95 on top

3258
03:31:07,754 --> 03:31:09,754
And then she had a face shield

3259
03:31:09,833 --> 03:31:11,833
That was duct-taped on the sides

3260
03:31:11,833 --> 03:31:13,833
So you tell me what the fuck that shit did

3261
03:31:14,234 --> 03:31:18,234
This is exactly what bit 110 is bro, like and this is a true story

3262
03:31:18,314 --> 03:31:22,713
I still can't believe what I saw in my life because this is a wealthy woman and it was just like she was just

3263
03:31:23,593 --> 03:31:28,794
Totally out of this world and I shit you not with the duct tape on this on the sides of the bottom of the fucking

3264
03:31:28,874 --> 03:31:32,234
face shield she added like the top had the thing for like

3265
03:31:32,794 --> 03:31:38,314
Like it you wrapped around her head and then the bottom and then she literally put duct tape right below the fucking masks

3266
03:31:38,473 --> 03:31:44,074
The other masks on the face shield so that no no, I don't know what she didn't expect to get in but

3267
03:31:44,874 --> 03:31:49,754
She was breathing. I'll tell you that much but like that's pretty much what people in time is doing here

3268
03:31:50,314 --> 03:31:51,114
it's

3269
03:31:51,114 --> 03:31:53,114
to relieve whatever

3270
03:31:54,074 --> 03:31:57,754
In their consciences where they think they're safe and they're not

3271
03:31:59,033 --> 03:32:01,033
That's all I could think of here

3272
03:32:01,994 --> 03:32:03,994
That's it

3273
03:32:04,153 --> 03:32:06,153
Well

3274
03:32:06,153 --> 03:32:08,153
That's very interesting and of course luke also

3275
03:32:08,794 --> 03:32:12,153
Remember he when he went to the the bitcoin miami

3276
03:32:13,114 --> 03:32:16,153
I think it was the first miami beach one. So it was even after the

3277
03:32:17,593 --> 03:32:21,353
It was the later one he came with he came with and they couldn't put the

3278
03:32:22,314 --> 03:32:23,353
the normal

3279
03:32:23,353 --> 03:32:29,353
Microphone the lapel microphone on him. So they had to give him the handheld microphone and you couldn't understand a word

3280
03:32:30,074 --> 03:32:32,074
I was trying to listen to I saw it live

3281
03:32:32,953 --> 03:32:34,953
You couldn't couldn't understand a word

3282
03:32:35,674 --> 03:32:37,674
That was coming out of his mouth

3283
03:32:38,074 --> 03:32:40,074
Through the mask and the weird microphone

3284
03:32:41,273 --> 03:32:48,393
He also he also dunked the giorno's pizza frozen pizza and hydrogen peroxide to uh, clean it of the of the virus

3285
03:32:49,273 --> 03:32:53,194
I mean you guys just proved my point. I think I heard of the hydrogen peroxide story

3286
03:32:53,913 --> 03:32:59,033
It's literally true like he doesn't deny it either like he just tweeted about it publicly like he he tagged them or whatever

3287
03:32:59,033 --> 03:33:04,234
He's like the giorno. Why is your cardboard box? Uh, not why is it not water sealed?

3288
03:33:05,674 --> 03:33:12,554
Well, no, it was the it was the plastic, uh, uh wrapping around. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right the plastic wrapping on the pizza itself

3289
03:33:12,634 --> 03:33:16,874
Yeah, when he when he dunked it the hydrogen peroxide got into the pizza

3290
03:33:21,754 --> 03:33:22,953
Is that stuff

3291
03:33:22,953 --> 03:33:26,554
Okay, so I never actually thought about that. How how did he get so much fucking hydrogen peroxide?

3292
03:33:26,554 --> 03:33:30,554
Did he just go to the pharmacy and just buy like fucking like 40?

3293
03:33:31,194 --> 03:33:33,194
40 bottles of hydrogen peroxide

3294
03:33:33,833 --> 03:33:38,153
Put them in a bathtub or something. This is this is this is when he had hundreds of bitcoin

3295
03:33:38,234 --> 03:33:40,713
I mean you can get anything you want if you have hundreds of bitcoin

3296
03:33:41,033 --> 03:33:45,833
Yeah, but i'm just thinking about how much hydrogen peroxide you would need to dunk an entire fucking the giorno's pizza

3297
03:33:46,074 --> 03:33:48,074
You would literally need like to fill a bathtub

3298
03:33:48,874 --> 03:33:53,434
Full of hydrogen peroxide. Yeah, I mean you're asking maybe the right questions

3299
03:33:53,513 --> 03:33:58,893
But at the same time like, you know, it's you can get whatever you want if you have hundreds of bitcoin

3300
03:34:03,994 --> 03:34:05,754
I think it was a cooler

3301
03:34:05,754 --> 03:34:07,754
I saw a photo of it. Someone showed me

3302
03:34:08,153 --> 03:34:13,353
Okay. Yeah, you can use a cooler too. But again now you now you have a cooler full of hydrogen peroxide

3303
03:34:13,353 --> 03:34:15,273
Which is still fucking ridiculous. I mean

3304
03:34:16,234 --> 03:34:19,513
I mean, of course it becomes water like it it disintegrated chemically

3305
03:34:20,393 --> 03:34:23,593
It disintegrates it becomes water it evaporates, right?

3306
03:34:24,393 --> 03:34:26,713
Yeah, but like think about it when you go to the store like when you buy

3307
03:34:27,273 --> 03:34:31,674
Hydrogen peroxide it comes in these little bottles. So you have to buy like 40 of these fucking bottles

3308
03:34:32,234 --> 03:34:38,713
Yeah, no big deal. Are you just amazon it? I'm sure he did. I'm just curious about how this pizza got cooked after

3309
03:34:39,273 --> 03:34:42,713
It wasn't sealed like did was it overcooked? No, I think

3310
03:34:43,833 --> 03:34:49,194
I think after after he realized it had leaked into the pizzas. He probably threw those ones away

3311
03:34:49,513 --> 03:34:50,794
and then that's when he

3312
03:34:50,794 --> 03:34:52,794
you know tweeted at

3313
03:34:52,853 --> 03:34:57,434
DiGiorno's and complaining. It probably would have been fine. It would have just boiled off I guess, you know

3314
03:34:57,674 --> 03:35:02,953
I mean, obviously it wouldn't it could have changed. Would you would you eat it? Would you eat fucking pizza dunking hydrogen peroxide?

3315
03:35:04,874 --> 03:35:07,593
Hydrogen peroxide is h202, right? So it's not that bad

3316
03:35:08,713 --> 03:35:10,794
There is food. Yes or no. Would you eat it?

3317
03:35:11,754 --> 03:35:17,593
I would if I you know, I don't know because uh during covid I don't know the food everyone's food

3318
03:35:18,393 --> 03:35:20,074
Does it smell weird

3319
03:35:20,074 --> 03:35:22,713
but I would my guess is that when you put it in the oven for

3320
03:35:23,593 --> 03:35:26,953
30 minutes or whatever you do to cook it. Um, my guess is that it would

3321
03:35:27,593 --> 03:35:29,593
sell that hydrogen peroxide

3322
03:35:32,794 --> 03:35:37,594
I would guess that's my I may I would definitely maybe smell it and take like a test bite

3323
03:35:40,554 --> 03:35:43,834
Have you ever have you ever served at one of your parties

3324
03:35:44,794 --> 03:35:46,794
Have you ever tried 200

3325
03:35:48,153 --> 03:35:53,033
Peroxide like it smells and I've never tasted peroxide but I tasted that

3326
03:35:56,393 --> 03:36:02,474
I'm not tasting it. But like there's this greek moonshine from cyprus. It's called spiritual means which means match in greek

3327
03:36:03,033 --> 03:36:04,474
But it's moonshine, bro

3328
03:36:04,474 --> 03:36:07,913
like I don't even know where to buy this shit and drinking like a fucking little like my

3329
03:36:08,133 --> 03:36:10,574
Grandmother used to drink a shot of it all the time in the morning

3330
03:36:11,454 --> 03:36:13,454
Fucking

3331
03:36:13,694 --> 03:36:17,934
It's like fucking drinking it's like drinking like peroxide going down your fucking throat

3332
03:36:20,253 --> 03:36:25,454
Um cheeks I missed it I had to log off but you just say you were the co-founder

3333
03:36:26,253 --> 03:36:29,373
You were the co-founder, right? Are you still do you still have anything to do with it or no?

3334
03:36:33,133 --> 03:36:39,054
Uh, I am not part of an operational role, um, I still have a stake because they haven't bought the rest

3335
03:36:39,054 --> 03:36:44,413
I mean I did sell I struck a deal to sell a number of like a large chunk of my shares

3336
03:36:45,133 --> 03:36:47,533
almost a year ago, but um

3337
03:36:48,174 --> 03:36:54,174
There's not like I mean, I still have a pretty major stake. I didn't I don't sit on the board anymore and have it for about

3338
03:36:55,054 --> 03:36:57,054
maybe a year and a half and then

3339
03:36:57,454 --> 03:36:59,454
I have no operational role, but

3340
03:37:01,454 --> 03:37:06,094
You know, I still know the founders, um still in good terms with them

3341
03:37:06,094 --> 03:37:08,094
Um

3342
03:37:08,653 --> 03:37:10,653
Kind of have to be because when I was my blood brother

3343
03:37:11,773 --> 03:37:13,773
Past year's been good, huh?

3344
03:37:14,493 --> 03:37:16,493
Oh, wait, you two are brothers

3345
03:37:16,493 --> 03:37:18,574
Um, the cto is my blood brother. Yeah

3346
03:37:19,934 --> 03:37:24,253
Oh, okay. I didn't know they're a good brother man disagreeing with your brother but still supporting him

3347
03:37:26,413 --> 03:37:29,294
I mean, yeah, like he actually agrees with me for what it's worth

3348
03:37:30,653 --> 03:37:34,174
About 110 like he doesn't I mean he has a much more tempered view

3349
03:37:34,174 --> 03:37:39,054
I think he actually sits kind of between where I am. I don't think that he has as strong of opinion on like the

3350
03:37:40,334 --> 03:37:41,373
fact that

3351
03:37:41,373 --> 03:37:43,373
110 is not sound

3352
03:37:43,934 --> 03:37:45,454
but he also

3353
03:37:45,454 --> 03:37:48,993
Will freely admit that he doesn't know necessarily because it's just not his area of expertise

3354
03:37:49,934 --> 03:37:51,373
um

3355
03:37:51,373 --> 03:37:55,613
I mean i'll tell you what 110 is good for business. All right, like you guys

3356
03:37:57,454 --> 03:37:59,294
Right

3357
03:37:59,294 --> 03:38:03,133
So in a marketing standpoint for business wise it's a good decision, I guess

3358
03:38:04,574 --> 03:38:09,294
Yeah, and but he's not really he has a very hands-off approach to the way that he

3359
03:38:09,854 --> 03:38:16,653
Engages in that side. He he runs the entire tech team. That's his only focus. He's like, let me just make the software good

3360
03:38:18,893 --> 03:38:22,493
Um, the business strategy has largely been run by matt forever

3361
03:38:23,054 --> 03:38:26,733
That actually even when I was there he did right like I didn't have

3362
03:38:27,294 --> 03:38:29,294
Um much input into that

3363
03:38:30,334 --> 03:38:32,974
Mostly because I didn't have the experience at the time. So

3364
03:38:35,133 --> 03:38:37,454
He's older i'm guessing yeah

3365
03:38:38,974 --> 03:38:40,974
Yeah

3366
03:38:48,413 --> 03:38:50,413
Hey paul, I wanted to ask you

3367
03:38:52,253 --> 03:38:56,513
Is it possible for bitcoin core to introduce changes

3368
03:38:58,653 --> 03:39:00,653
That would

3369
03:39:01,054 --> 03:39:07,533
Um that could not be merged into Drivechains or into eCash like some kind of anti

3370
03:39:09,133 --> 03:39:15,233
BIP300 anti-Drivechain anti-eCash type of change

3371
03:39:21,214 --> 03:39:25,373
All right, I was getting kicked out and I was almost I almost didn't come back

3372
03:39:25,454 --> 03:39:27,454
I was almost like this stupid app is the worst

3373
03:39:28,013 --> 03:39:30,493
What is wrong with the people coding the spaces I don't know

3374
03:39:32,094 --> 03:39:34,094
It's just basic reliability

3375
03:39:36,574 --> 03:39:40,653
Yeah, yeah, it's a completely unusable dude since the new update, uh,

3376
03:39:41,454 --> 03:39:45,133
Go download like an apk of like an older version. It's completely unusable

3377
03:39:45,773 --> 03:39:49,294
I know and it's basically fixed by the end of the week apparently

3378
03:39:50,013 --> 03:39:54,653
Oh good. I also have like an iphone that I also use sometimes for different apps

3379
03:39:54,653 --> 03:39:56,974
so sometimes I just join from the iphone, so maybe i'll

3380
03:39:57,454 --> 03:39:59,214
maybe i'll try that but it's

3381
03:39:59,214 --> 03:40:00,974
It's even worse than usual last week

3382
03:40:00,974 --> 03:40:05,773
It kicked me off of my own it rogged my own space and then I couldn't even start a new space or rejoin

3383
03:40:05,934 --> 03:40:09,054
And I was like, is this real android users can't

3384
03:40:09,694 --> 03:40:15,214
Host or co-host, uh spaces right now because they have like a new app, but it it's

3385
03:40:16,013 --> 03:40:20,013
Bad, it's really bad, but they're supposedly gonna fix it by the end of the week

3386
03:40:20,974 --> 03:40:24,893
Okay, okay, that's good. So what was there was a question though Zcash question then i'll probably

3387
03:40:25,533 --> 03:40:30,094
Get going even though this was really fun. This is from what two to seven. You guys just do this every day for five hours

3388
03:40:31,133 --> 03:40:34,013
Yeah, I mean it depends. It's not every day. It's random

3389
03:40:34,733 --> 03:40:37,613
Sometimes I do sometimes I don't depends on you know

3390
03:40:38,413 --> 03:40:44,174
Okay, now what I heard the question was something like an anti-eCash soft fork and I was like, oh that sounds

3391
03:40:45,294 --> 03:40:49,074
Very unfriendly like is it mathematically possible?

3392
03:40:50,574 --> 03:40:52,574
For bitcoin core to

3393
03:40:52,653 --> 03:40:54,493
have changes

3394
03:40:54,493 --> 03:40:55,993
like have

3395
03:40:55,993 --> 03:40:59,533
anti-fifth 300 changes that would be incompatible with

3396
03:41:00,653 --> 03:41:02,653
with eCash

3397
03:41:02,653 --> 03:41:08,434
Again, already it's breaking off just by not merging. They already have anti-fifth 300

3398
03:41:10,253 --> 03:41:12,253
Bitcoin is kind of made to append to it

3399
03:41:12,253 --> 03:41:15,533
So like if somebody wanted to make a fork they could that's the whole point

3400
03:41:15,533 --> 03:41:22,253
No, but his I understand this question his question paul is uh, do you think that bitcoin core could introduce like some change on purpose?

3401
03:41:22,814 --> 03:41:28,493
Because you said that your your new eCash thing you want to basically like keep it in consensus with bitcoin core like pull down

3402
03:41:29,054 --> 03:41:31,054
downstream

3403
03:41:31,773 --> 03:41:34,653
Creates like some code that purposely breaks your your

3404
03:41:35,913 --> 03:41:37,913
300 yeah, it would be

3405
03:41:37,913 --> 03:41:39,913
Greatly

3406
03:41:42,474 --> 03:41:43,834
Sorry, go ahead

3407
03:41:43,834 --> 03:41:50,314
Yeah on the two weeks or a week ago. You said basically with bitcoin core. You're just clicking merge merge merge merge merge

3408
03:41:50,314 --> 03:41:52,314
there's just something that

3409
03:41:52,314 --> 03:41:54,314
Would be the end of that

3410
03:41:56,554 --> 03:41:58,554
It's an interesting question and

3411
03:41:58,613 --> 03:42:03,354
Theoretically the answer is yes, but it would be like a kind of cat and mouse

3412
03:42:03,913 --> 03:42:07,354
It would kind of be a little like how well 110 is a bad idea

3413
03:42:07,594 --> 03:42:11,773
So i'll just maybe steal man. This is the the most malicious

3414
03:42:12,554 --> 03:42:16,554
Thing everyone I can see. Mr. Hoddle. He's like grabbing a pen and a paper. He's gonna write this down

3415
03:42:16,633 --> 03:42:20,714
He's kind of taking some notes, but the worst thing the worst thing they could do

3416
03:42:21,354 --> 03:42:27,674
Is the most inconvenient thing would be like if we use for whatever we use for the BIP300/301 enforcer would use like op

3417
03:42:27,674 --> 03:42:29,434
not five

3418
03:42:29,434 --> 03:42:31,434
so like if they

3419
03:42:32,633 --> 03:42:35,434
If we wanted to keep clicking merge we might have to

3420
03:42:37,434 --> 03:42:40,314
Schedule some kind of hot swap of that. So if they say

3421
03:42:41,033 --> 03:42:46,633
We're using op map 5 for some they probably wouldn't even do this because they just do op success and taproot because they're you know

3422
03:42:47,273 --> 03:42:53,674
Sucking taproot's dick or whatever taproot's not even that cool everyone. It's just like this thing to support lightning, which is dying

3423
03:42:56,233 --> 03:43:03,194
Yeah, that's so they uh, and it's like um taproot is kind of well, it's a different story so basically although

3424
03:43:04,153 --> 03:43:05,113
the

3425
03:43:05,113 --> 03:43:07,113
the eCash L1

3426
03:43:07,354 --> 03:43:11,434
Is almost exactly the same as bitcoin core minus like the few minimal changes

3427
03:43:12,393 --> 03:43:15,913
That are very very small and you could see you could try the dry run

3428
03:43:16,714 --> 03:43:18,714
Three you go on github and look and see for yourself

3429
03:43:19,354 --> 03:43:21,934
We're up to dry run three. We'll probably do a bunch more iterations

3430
03:43:22,474 --> 03:43:25,113
So we really like it but the L1 is the very simple part

3431
03:43:25,273 --> 03:43:29,594
Most of the work is on the L2s and the BIP300/301 stuff is not in the L1

3432
03:43:29,674 --> 03:43:32,153
It's in the enforcer, which is a different piece of software

3433
03:43:32,714 --> 03:43:36,314
So that would be the thing to target would be to target like op not

3434
03:43:36,954 --> 03:43:41,434
Five or whatever we use and then use it for something else at that point, of course

3435
03:43:42,153 --> 03:43:45,194
We could basically if we wanted to keep the merge merge merge

3436
03:43:46,074 --> 03:43:48,653
We could hard fork the enforcer

3437
03:43:49,273 --> 03:43:52,554
Over eCash land and say okay. We used op not five until this day

3438
03:43:53,273 --> 03:43:55,273
But then we switch it to op not

3439
03:43:55,493 --> 03:44:00,233
79 or something or you know, seven plus nine something else, you know, because

3440
03:44:01,753 --> 03:44:04,474
I could elaborate on that if people want but that would be like the most

3441
03:44:05,354 --> 03:44:12,554
Annoying thing I think uh other than that not not really I don't think so because really it's just not changing

3442
03:44:13,113 --> 03:44:16,153
Bitcoin Core. So the L1 is is very similar

3443
03:44:16,794 --> 03:44:21,513
And the main new thing do you want me to take it down wicked? You want me to take it down?

3444
03:44:23,513 --> 03:44:28,873
I think what you I just posted do you want me to take that down?

3445
03:44:28,873 --> 03:44:30,873
I don't know

3446
03:44:32,314 --> 03:44:36,873
What are we taking down what are we taking down maybe something on the nest I I don't know

3447
03:44:38,954 --> 03:44:41,113
I don't think there's something going on where they are

3448
03:44:44,153 --> 03:44:45,674
Um

3449
03:44:45,674 --> 03:44:47,674
Look at do you know this person?

3450
03:44:48,794 --> 03:44:55,674
I had a better shoot wicked. That's your respect. That's i'm i'm not talking to him. I was meaning he's a troll

3451
03:44:56,554 --> 03:44:57,434
Yeah

3452
03:44:57,434 --> 03:45:00,393
You want me to take it down? No, just go down

3453
03:45:03,033 --> 03:45:06,554
So district mimi is like probably one of your favorite trolls

3454
03:45:07,113 --> 03:45:10,873
Figure it out like you'll see what we're talking about, but she's not talking to any of us right now

3455
03:45:13,513 --> 03:45:15,674
Oh, it's mimi I didn't even realize yeah, she's a troll

3456
03:45:21,273 --> 03:45:24,153
She's a literal troll. All right. Anyway, I have to

3457
03:45:25,033 --> 03:45:27,033
Good

3458
03:45:27,273 --> 03:45:29,273
Go now this has been fun

3459
03:45:29,834 --> 03:45:31,194
You guys are great

3460
03:45:31,194 --> 03:45:35,513
All right. Thanks for having me up. I'll see you later. Yeah, great. I'll uh,

3461
03:45:36,314 --> 03:45:38,314
I'll send you that list later

3462
03:45:38,474 --> 03:45:39,993
Okay, great

3463
03:45:39,993 --> 03:45:41,993
See you guys

3464
03:45:45,913 --> 03:45:47,753
All right, um

3465
03:45:47,753 --> 03:45:48,633
So

3466
03:45:48,633 --> 03:45:55,834
I don't know if there's much else to talk about today. I think I need to eat some food. I've been eating all day

3467
03:45:56,633 --> 03:45:58,314
Just been drinking beer

3468
03:45:58,314 --> 03:46:03,033
Do you want me to remove it or how you feel about it? Like we can go in?

3469
03:46:05,513 --> 03:46:11,834
I dare you what's going on. No, I know it's my account but it's attached to his mother. I'm not talking to you lady bug

3470
03:46:12,474 --> 03:46:14,474
with ladybug

3471
03:46:14,714 --> 03:46:18,954
I'm talking to you ladybug. What the hell?

3472
03:46:21,094 --> 03:46:23,094
Ladybug

3473
03:46:23,513 --> 03:46:30,253
All right, well go eat you good I guess i'll see you guys later you good you want me to get in

3474
03:46:44,474 --> 03:46:47,434
You