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Hello, and welcome to the 84M podcast. We're on episode 40 tonight, and our guest is
Paul

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Sztorc. We're going to talk about Drivechain. So let me just give him an
introduction, and

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we'll dive right in. So Paul Sztorc is founder and CEO of LayerTwo Labs. He is creator
of Bitcoin

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LiveMind, and he is a blogger at drivechain.info. He's also the author of BIP300/301,

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which of course we're going to talk about tonight, and you can find him on X at
Truthcoin.

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Paul, welcome to the show. I know you don't like introductions, but we got to give
you one.

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Well, yeah, thanks for having me. I think that was a mistake to say. I mean, people
do need to

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know, like, who am I talking to here? And, you know, is this a friend or an enemy?
So I try to

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be a friend, you know. I just put out my little technology idea. We'll see if people
like it or

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not. Well, that's what we want to discuss. So I know last year at the Litecoin
Summit, you gave

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a presentation on Drivechains. I know you've gone to lengths discussing Drivechains.
You've been

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working on it for quite some time. Yeah, I would stop. I would quit if it ever made
any sense to

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quit. But the world just, you know, I just don't get it at all. Like, everyone seems
to be,

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the non-mined L2s in Bitcoin have no future, I think. And they are always reduced
to,

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you know, trust someone else, trust a federation with your keys or something.

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And the Drivechain idea just looks great. You could scale to 8 billion people.

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We have the Zcash privacy. We completed all the software. So Lightning is like this
ongoing

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developer make work program. It doesn't even work and all these people are jumping
ship.

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And yet, so, you know, it is bizarre to spend so much time on it. But it's not like

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it has ever, like, it's not like where you and your friends start a band and you
kind of think,

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like, oh, maybe it'll catch on and year after year goes by. It's just kind of like
the fundamentals

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get better every year. So I don't know. It just seems pretty weird to me.

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Well, I do request that you treat me like a four-year-old during this conversation,

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because I think a lot of this is, again, we're here to listen and learn. So I'm one
of the folks

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that needs to learn about what you're doing. And I think it's interesting. Maybe we
start by just

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giving you kind of what is the brief statement on why you even thought of this, I
want to say in

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2015. What was the problem you saw with Bitcoin in 2015? And what does it look like
in 2025?

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Of course, we're going to talk mostly about Litecoin.

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Of course. Well, yeah, with Litecoin, the angle is that I think Bitcoin is, you
know,

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making a lot of mistakes. And so this is, you know, I think that the time to compete
is now.

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And eternal glory is unlikely, but possible. And that's just, you know, investing is
like that,

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where, you know, the VC people will take 20 swings, go up to the bat and take 20
swings,

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miss 19, and then walk away, you know, catrillionaires, because the one they had
made a

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huge amount. But I was originally interested in this. Originally, my interest in
sidechains was

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not like as this fundamental life-saving thing that would be make or break for
Bitcoin at all.

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At first, I was interested in prediction markets. And I came up with this extremely

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complicated peer-to-peer oracle, which is still a pretty cool idea. It's less
important now,

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because more and more gambling has been legalized. There was like no legal gambling
back when I

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came. This was like 2012. Intrade had been closed down by, you know, the U.S.
authorities and the

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CFTC. Now you have like FanDuel and DraftKings, and you have Polymarket. So it's
very different.

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I still think there's a niche for the censorship-resistant peer-to-peer

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oracle blockchain prediction market thing. I still think that's actually a really,

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really, really good idea and definitely worth doing. And I hope to do it. But that
was how

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I got into it. And I was like, I designed this weird thing that I don't expect to be
mainstream

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without a lot of, you know, for many years of people seeing it work in the wild and
stuff like

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that. So it's a very weird thing. And the idea of the sidechain was out there
already on Bitcoin

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Talk, even though Blockstream hadn't written their paper yet. And so then they wrote
their paper in

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2014. And I worked on the prediction market thing and finished it. And then I was
like,

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now it's time to attach this to Bitcoin. And so then I looked up what Blockstream
had done,

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and it turns out they really hadn't done anything. So they had this weird skip list
idea,

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but it was all like, so I was like working up close with the details. And I just
thought like,

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you know, they were going about it the wrong way, way more complicated and for no
benefit. And they

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had a, you know, I can go down the list of how what I did differs from. And in the
original

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Drivechain post, they have like an FAQ at the bottom. One of the questions is, how
is this

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different from the Blockstream? Appendix B in their October 2014 paper, because
there's a lot

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of this. Like, I was very surprised when I zoomed into what they were doing. And I
just thought,

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well, I don't really know, like, if I should use this at all.

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It turns out they also kind of abandoned everything they were doing. They never
even,

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the skip list thing never came to fruition. And they just did the federated
sidechain liquid.

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And that is just, they say, they claim that there's 15 keys held by different
people. There's

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no way of knowing if this is true. This is like a Zcash trusted setup. We have no
way of knowing

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if this is true. And then you just give them the coins, and then you just kind of
hope that they

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give the coins back. And then they have this other blockchain, but it's kind of a
little bit of a

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song and dance. But this is what happened with Bitcoin is, overall, everyone,
because of the

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block size war, people kind of compromised on their integrity a little bit each day.
And then

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now it's 10 years, it's been 10 years since 2015, and people just lie about
everything.

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Unfortunately, it's very sad. But that's just how it is. And people don't even know,
like they do,

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the primal to primal zap on Nostr, which does, that does not involve any lightning
transactions

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at all. Zero whatsoever. It doesn't even, it's not even really a Bitcoin
transaction.

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What are they calling it? Lightning?

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But they call it lightning. Everyone thinks, oh, lightning is great. I just zapped
my friend.

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It has the lightning icon, and it's called zap. And this is just part of the ongoing
derangement.

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So unfortunately, this is my new, this is like my cross to bear now, is that Bitcoin
has

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accumulated all this scar tissue and all these mistakes. And I worry about the
future of Bitcoin

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if it cannot be honest with itself. But this is the opportunity for Litecoin. This
is why we would

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say, OK, before you might say something like, Bitcoin is too far ahead. This is the
famous

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Brian Armstrong tweet from back in the day. Bitcoin is too far ahead. We should just
be

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focused on Bitcoin and sidechains, he said. And network effects will carry the day.

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And we need everyone to unite. But no, it's when, when you really see like these
fundamental

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mistakes that you are very grateful that there are some competitors out there. So
yeah.

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Sorry, long answer.

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No, that's good. So Drivechain, your BEPs were in a response to Blockstream coming
up with a

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solution for scaling. And they ended up with Liquid, which is, which I have not used
it. I

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know it's more private. It is an L2. They're running it, but it's, it's a single
chain,

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is it not? It's not like, from what I'm learning about Drivechain, it's more like a
Swiss Army

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knife.

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Yeah, you're totally hailing it.

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It's annoying. This is like, one thing this has taught me, which is a little bit
depressing,

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is that, you know, so like that guy who's the Dilbert guy, Scott Adams, right? He
claims to

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be a hypnotist. But I think he, he just, but he even just saying that he's like a
genius in a way,

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because what, if you dig into what he's trying to say, people just attach so much
information

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to the, the name or the word, you know, the Patriot Act, whatever, you know, and you
think

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who would fall for that? But actually everyone falls for it. The Ministry of Truth,
you know,

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and people fall for it, you know, and so they call it a sidechain.

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But as you say, the true sidechain idea is not like one piece of software. It is a
general

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technique that you would, you could just reuse. You could say we'd have the Ethereum
Drivechain

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or the Zcash Drivechain, or we would have the whatever, the Monero Drivechain. It
would be like

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a general technique. It's like saying that you're going to use like long division or
something.

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But then they say liquid is a sidechain. And one of the questions I would ask, even
though you're

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way ahead of me on this, when I would try to, you know, knock some sense into
people, I would say,

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well, what am I supposed to do? Let's say I want to use liquid or whatever the hell
they're talking

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about to make a Zcash sidechain on Bitcoin. What do I do? And then you just wait for
people to

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answer. And they realize there is no answer because the answer would be something
like,

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find 15 people again to be the multi-sig keyholder on L1. And then just kind of like

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have them run Zcash in reg test mode and have them just process the deposits and
withdrawals.

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But you see that that answer is just completely equivalent to someone made a wallet
and we're

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just giving them all our money and we hope that we get it back. And the whole Zcash
sidechain part

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is not, you know, is no, it's not a fundamental part of the explanation of what's
happening at

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all. It's just, just give the money to, or just give the money to Visa or whatever,
or just hope

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that you get it back. Give the money to Coinbase. And you can see why that doesn't
really have a

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future because, well, there's so many paradoxes with it. It's like with liquid, you
could ask

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people, I've done this many times, you ask them, supporters of liquid, you know,
there's really not

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that many out there, but you can find them if you look. And you can say, well, okay,
you like liquid.

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Liquid is just these 15 people. Would you agree that the security of liquid rises or
falls on

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the reputation of these 15 keyholders? And of course they say yes, because that's
true. And

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then you just ask them, okay, who are, who are the 15 keyholders? Do they, do they
respond to this?

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No, I know, happen to know, just because of pure chance and fluke and being in the
industry

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for a while, I happen to know a few of them and I asked, so I know some of them, but
it's not

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publicly available information. And this is, you know, partly to maybe stop them
from being

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sued or harassed or whatever. So it partly makes sense, but it's also a paradox to
say

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this rises or falls on the reputation of these people. And then, and then there are
anonymous

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cypherpunk identities that no one knows who they are. And you just kind of think,
well, you know,

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it just speaks to how poorly thought out it is. I hate to put it in those terms, but
it's just like

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no one really cares about the substance. And that is, that is difficult. If you, if
you think that

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you have improved the substance a little bit, you just kind of think, ah, so, and
then there's,

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you know, it wasn't even open source for a while. And it's kind of still not,

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there's like different components of it. And then what part is open source? The
fundamentally,

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it's not open source because you cannot change. No one can like, no, it's weird
because they,

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this is the hypnotism thing. Again, if I were to say out loud the sentence that goes
like this,

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it says, no one can download the liquid source code and then change it and then
release their

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00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:20,920
own version. Okay. That's technically not true, but people would be missing the
point if they

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said that I could download some of the version that they say is what the real liquid
is.

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And then I could release my own version with my own 15 key holders, but I couldn't
change like

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the liquid, you know, network. It's not like where if I actually download, you know,
Ubuntu

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or something, I can change the font color or something if I want. So it's all just,
and then

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people say, oh, that doesn't matter or it doesn't, whatever, you know, it's like at
a certain point,

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you have to just like, for my own sanity, I have to just say, I can't talk to these
people anymore.

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I'm just going to release it the way I think it should be. And the only real way to
make any sense

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of it is to release the software and show people exactly what it is you're talking
about, because

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00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:10,840
it's really hard to just do something like idea to idea. And most people are not set
up for that,

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00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:15,160
which is just to say, you know, not everyone is a specialist in everything. So
they're not going to,

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if you go to somebody and you say, oh, I have an idea for a new, you know, a new
type of roof.

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And it's, you know, it lasted a trillion years. People don't know they are, everyone
is a lay

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person. We can only be a specialist in like one thing at a time. So. Right. I don't,
I'd like to

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have you elaborate a little bit more about the concern with federations, although
that's not

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really the topic of the discussion, but I think it's important because Drivechain
is not,

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is not a federation. Right. So just reiterate what a federation is. And they say,
well,

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people like Luke Dashjr., who, of course, he has, you know, many interesting
opinions. I really

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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:55,960
like Luke a lot, although he has his own bizarre way of arguing where like he can't
lie, but he

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00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,480
just invents his own dictionary where everything has a different meaning to him. So
you have to

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00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:06,440
like decode it. But yeah, he'll say like, oh, the Drivechain is the federation of
the miners or

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something, which, you know, this really misses the point, I think, about like what
makes Bitcoin,

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what made Bitcoin different than its predecessors that failed? Yeah. So Bitcoin had
these

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predecessors, Liberty Reserve, DigiCash. There were eGold, right? I'm kind of
blanking on all

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00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:32,680
the names, but there were these, there were predecessors to Bitcoin. And they all
failed

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because they had one, like a server that was responsible for just one piece of the
thing.

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So, but usually the devil spend. And so if they seize the server, the whole thing's
obliterated.

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Bitcoin changed that around and said, you do not, everyone is an equal peer on the
network.

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And then the network state advances in a particular way. It's not like one person

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gets to do it. Anyone can do it as long as they meet the proof of work. Right.

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And the idea of miners as being, I mean, this is going to get kind of philosophical
now,

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and I don't know if I'm just, but this is how I honestly think about it is

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the, there is no such thing as a fixed group of miners. Like that is a
misconception.

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There is a decentralized mining process that anyone can join or leave at any time.
And if

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enough people actually leave, it becomes slightly easier to join with the whole
difficulty adjustment.

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And so it's a dynamic membership. The fact that the membership, the fact that it is
not a fixed

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set of people, a fixed list, where if you like killed all 15 people,

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it'd be like a godfather and you killed them all at the same day. Like you could,

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you could destroy all the miners today and the Bitcoin network would actually
survive.

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You could even do something bizarre in theory. I mean, I don't want to get too
theoretical,

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but you could even do something where like every SHA-256 piece of equipment was
destroyed.

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And we had to like manually, it would be a trivial inconvenience.

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Once people realized what had happened, that somehow we had magically destroyed,

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you need like planetary level magic. And then the fix would be to like one time,

185
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lower the difficulty, a special time, and the network would just be fine.

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So this is what makes Bitcoin so special is that it does not

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have this thing with the fixed list of admins. You see there'd be administrators or
super peers.

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Bitcoin has it all peer to peer, so everyone's equal. And that's what makes Bitcoin
special.

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And yeah, I find this depressing that when people say things like Drivechain is a
federation of

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miners, because the whole point of why Bitcoin succeeded was the miners part
replaced the

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federated part. And so I find that quite annoying. I think, have these people heard
of Bitcoin?

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You know, like this is the whole game changing part. And it's no different in the
case of drive

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chain is why Drivechain will probably work. These other things will probably not
work is

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with Drivechain, it's all unified behind the same. Users pay transaction fees.

195
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The transaction fee can go to anyone. It's just part of the transaction itself.

196
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The miners collect the transaction fees. The miners do the merge mining of all the
different

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chains. The miners are the ones who have a vested interest in keeping all the chains
working.

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And the miners can collect a geometrically increasing amount of transaction fees
forever

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by doing this. And again, when I say the miners, that is short for

200
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the decentralized mining process. That's exactly what does not happen with Bitcoin
mining is the

201
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,960
transaction like pays a fee to the arc super node or the LN routing node. The fee is
just part of

202
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,880
the transaction. So you just have all this huge group of transactions and you know
that anyone

203
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:07,240
could get those in the future. All the miners play the same game against each other
to mine,

204
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to do shots of six mining in Bitcoin's case. And so I don't know if, but then I
dodged the

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original question was, was something like, why is it not? I mean, federation is a
fixed list of keys.

206
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That's what I mean. So miners is an, we don't know the, I mean, probably there's a
statistic.

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We could probably look up how many miners are. We can at least look up the hash
power, do the math.

208
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It could be difficult, but it might be able to be, it might, you may be able to do
it, but I mean,

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you're talking about thousands or tens of thousands versus 15. People talk about the

210
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pools. The pools are a red herring. You could compromise 100% of the pools and that
would not

211
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matter. You would, people would just make new pools. The pools are completely, it's
depressing

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00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:56,200
how I feel like stuff was understood earlier in Bitcoin's history and now it is more
superstitions

213
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,080
have crept in. And I want to talk about mining in a little bit. I've got for
everybody watching,

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I think this is the longest note pad or notes sheet that I've had for any episode.

215
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,160
And I do want to talk about miners, but I think once upon a time we were considering
the miners,

216
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,960
kind of the backbone of the network and the heroes, you know, they're doing the,

217
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,800
they're doing all the work, you know, they're, they're allowing a network to exist
for us to use

218
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,920
and we should celebrate them. Now we're concerned about maybe too much undue power
given to miners.

219
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,720
But anyway, I'm going to pause on that and we'll move forward. We'll go back to it.
But yeah,

220
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,480
I think the federated model, which it sounds like liquid, and again, I'm not saying
anything

221
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,440
about liquid. This is not a show about liquid, but you're talking about, you need to
trust to

222
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:42,680
a degree, 15 people with 15 aspects of the key for it to function, right? Kind of
like,

223
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,480
what will happen if liquid is a big success and generates, and there's more and more
and more coins

224
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,400
get locked to the liquid network. Is there going to be a commensurate increase in
the amount of

225
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,680
money paid to these 15 people? It turns out the answer is no. On liquid, in fact,
all the

226
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:07,160
transaction fees go to a wall controlled by Blockstream. This is hard-coded in. Now,
of course,

227
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:13,880
you could say like that's, they could easily change that. I think it does, it's not
a fundamental

228
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:24,120
gripe, but actually in a weird paradoxical way, focusing on who gets the transaction
fee revenues

229
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,600
is a fundamental gripe, because actually, if anything is going to be a success,

230
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,120
there's going to be, if we're talking 8 billion users and people make three
transactions a day,

231
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,600
now we're talking like trillions of transactions per year, and 10 cents per
transaction,

232
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,200
this is hundreds of billions of dollars per year. And I've estimated that this
number

233
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,160
doubles every 11 years or so. I've tried to just do some napkin math on that.

234
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,600
So actually, the fees question is important, even though in this particular case,
it's kind of like

235
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,520
they could just change the fee to go somewhere else. Well, actually, the question
is, there's

236
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,800
going to be a huge pile of money. And if you have a different system, that's not the
miners get it

237
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,080
all, then you have to decide that people are going to be fighting over it. And the
miners will be

238
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:12,520
fighting you for it. The miners will say, well, wait a minute, we mine L1, we
control everything

239
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,600
that happens in L1, we control all the hash commitments for all the different L2s.
The L1

240
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,560
controls all the L2s, like a lightning node. If you can't connect to a Bitcoin core
node,

241
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:27,080
it won't even turn on. Same for Drivechain L2. If you cannot connect to Bitcoin
core,

242
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,440
it just will have no idea like who has deposited to it, for example, so it just
won't do anything.

243
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:39,560
And so the L1 miners are quite fundamental. And so actually, it does, they do have
to get all

244
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,600
the transaction fees because every other answer just leads to kind of a nonsensical
outcome,

245
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,840
which will never happen in the long run. And that's the incentive model beyond the

246
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:54,600
21 million cap or for Litecoins, 84 million cap, right? We're looking at fees to
compensate for

247
00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:01,400
security and everything else. So this all came up. So we nearly had you on last
year,

248
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,840
you were doing a lot of interviews, it didn't happen. And then I think now's the
time to bring

249
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,360
it up again. So I was watching, you made a tweet, I think last month, and then
actually you got some

250
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:15,160
feedback from David Burkett and Charlie Lee. So you mentioned about kind of where
you're at,

251
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,120
what Drivechains and what your team's done, and we'll talk more about that. And then
David

252
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,120
basically said, hey, we don't have a signet, we might need to add one. And then
Charlie's like,

253
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:29,960
yeah, go ahead and do it. So that was kind of a neat signal. And so I am interested
to see

254
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:41,560
how Drivechains would work in the setting of Litecoin in terms of the, sorry, what'd
you say?

255
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,360
I mean, go ahead.

256
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:49,320
Okay. I'm just looking over my laundry list here. So I'm just looking at Litecoin
implementation

257
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,440
versus Bitcoin. Are there any, how would you describe the difference?

258
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:05,080
I don't think it's that different at all. I mean, I think the key thing is that the
technical,

259
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:11,160
under the hood, BIP300 is not that complicated. It is just, it takes this extra
opcode and it

260
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:19,000
basically counts to 13,000 over and over again. And it sounds weird, but that is all
it does.

261
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,080
And it has this idea of like a cross-chain confirmation basically, where the miners
just

262
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,360
choose which withdrawal kind of they want to build on. And it doesn't really cost
anyone

263
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,800
anything. They just promote the, and the withdrawals are deliberately very slow

264
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:41,000
so that it's acknowledged that if the miners want the system to work, then it's
very, very,

265
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,120
very, very unbelievably easy for them. It's like one hash has to be right every
three to six months.

266
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:52,120
So it's very easy for everyone to keep everything in sync. And like, even with the
CUSF activator,

267
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:58,120
you just run like a second piece of software next to the Bitcoin core client. The
fundamental thing

268
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,800
is, it is a,

269
00:25:00,397 --> 00:25:02,397
I didn't really realize this when I came up with it,

270
00:25:03,717 --> 00:25:05,877
but really the fundamental thing is it is,

271
00:25:05,877 --> 00:25:08,397
what you're doing is you're pitching like a vision

272
00:25:08,397 --> 00:25:12,677
for 8 billion users.

273
00:25:12,677 --> 00:25:14,917
And you're just pitching like basically the future

274
00:25:14,917 --> 00:25:19,917
of the, like the next iteration of what it would look like.

275
00:25:20,037 --> 00:25:23,797
If what, you know, what like cryptocurrency would look like.

276
00:25:23,797 --> 00:25:25,317
I kind of didn't really think about it that way

277
00:25:25,317 --> 00:25:27,157
when I was in, I was just trying to like come up

278
00:25:27,917 --> 00:25:28,757
with something that would work to get the coins

279
00:25:28,757 --> 00:25:30,037
to move back and forth.

280
00:25:30,037 --> 00:25:31,637
But really that's the bizarre thing

281
00:25:31,637 --> 00:25:34,797
because the miners today, I don't think they realize

282
00:25:34,797 --> 00:25:36,477
like what's at stake at all.

283
00:25:36,477 --> 00:25:37,957
Some of the smarter ones do,

284
00:25:37,957 --> 00:25:39,357
but even there were presentations

285
00:25:39,357 --> 00:25:42,637
at the most recent Las Vegas conference.

286
00:25:42,637 --> 00:25:45,517
I'm not sure how well they were even received,

287
00:25:45,517 --> 00:25:48,597
but like, I don't think miners realize like they,

288
00:25:48,597 --> 00:25:50,837
if they do nothing, which they currently are doing

289
00:25:50,837 --> 00:25:53,477
in Bitcoin, they're trying, they're sort of seeding ground

290
00:25:53,477 --> 00:25:57,797
to like this new arc, covenants, Fediment, whatever.

291
00:25:57,797 --> 00:26:01,437
And they will not get these transaction fees

292
00:26:01,437 --> 00:26:03,877
until much later when they realize that, oh, they actually,

293
00:26:03,877 --> 00:26:06,837
and so then there'll be a huge, huge conflict.

294
00:26:07,677 --> 00:26:10,077
But they have really like no idea

295
00:26:10,077 --> 00:26:11,997
that I think it doesn't even occur to them

296
00:26:11,997 --> 00:26:15,477
that they could be getting a hundred times

297
00:26:15,477 --> 00:26:18,717
or even 10,000 times the transaction fee revenue

298
00:26:18,717 --> 00:26:20,617
that they could get from merge mining.

299
00:26:21,057 --> 00:26:26,057
And that this is like, not only makes them more money,

300
00:26:26,097 --> 00:26:27,417
but it's much better for Bitcoin

301
00:26:27,417 --> 00:26:30,177
and produces this more harmonious state of affairs

302
00:26:30,177 --> 00:26:32,737
where the miners have a relationship with the users

303
00:26:32,737 --> 00:26:36,897
and everyone from the influencers to the software developer,

304
00:26:36,897 --> 00:26:39,857
everyone's trying to get people to actually use

305
00:26:39,857 --> 00:26:43,497
the software so that they pay transaction fee

306
00:26:43,497 --> 00:26:45,897
and goes to miners and miners have a ton of money.

307
00:26:45,897 --> 00:26:50,537
So the miners are not easily bribed or messed with.

308
00:26:51,357 --> 00:26:53,137
They think they know that their bread and butter

309
00:26:53,137 --> 00:26:55,617
is the user of the software.

310
00:26:55,617 --> 00:27:00,617
So all that probably sounds uncontroversial

311
00:27:01,337 --> 00:27:02,817
or just like worth trying,

312
00:27:02,817 --> 00:27:07,177
but this is actually so far outside the Overton window

313
00:27:07,177 --> 00:27:08,857
that I think most people can't even wrap their head

314
00:27:08,857 --> 00:27:09,677
around it.

315
00:27:09,677 --> 00:27:12,537
It's bizarre to say, but that's just been my experience.

316
00:27:12,537 --> 00:27:13,997
I feel like in the early days though,

317
00:27:13,997 --> 00:27:15,957
that was like one of the early considerations

318
00:27:15,957 --> 00:27:18,257
was the miners are the backbone layer.

319
00:27:18,257 --> 00:27:20,777
I mean, again, we weren't thinking of maybe about L1s

320
00:27:20,777 --> 00:27:22,057
or sorry, L2s.

321
00:27:22,057 --> 00:27:23,937
Yeah, there was no early on.

322
00:27:23,937 --> 00:27:27,057
But Satoshi had a quote and he said,

323
00:27:27,057 --> 00:27:30,817
I think in 20 years, he said this quote in 2010.

324
00:27:30,817 --> 00:27:32,297
So he said, I think in 20 years,

325
00:27:32,297 --> 00:27:34,257
he says, I'm certain that in 20 years,

326
00:27:34,257 --> 00:27:37,737
there will either be a very large transaction volume

327
00:27:37,737 --> 00:27:39,457
or no transaction volume.

328
00:27:39,457 --> 00:27:42,737
And he said that in 2010, 20 years would be 2030.

329
00:27:42,737 --> 00:27:44,537
So we're coming up on it.

330
00:27:44,537 --> 00:27:45,537
Yeah.

331
00:27:45,537 --> 00:27:47,037
He was thinking that at least.

332
00:27:48,257 --> 00:27:50,417
So looking at kind of block times,

333
00:27:50,417 --> 00:27:53,777
Bitcoin's 10 minute blocks, roughly speaking,

334
00:27:53,777 --> 00:27:56,377
Litecoin 2.5 minute blocks

335
00:27:56,377 --> 00:27:57,977
in terms of the time for confirmation,

336
00:27:57,977 --> 00:28:00,717
then you have other Dogecoin one minute blocks.

337
00:28:02,217 --> 00:28:04,037
How do those impact Drivechains

338
00:28:04,037 --> 00:28:05,717
and I guess the functionality?

339
00:28:05,717 --> 00:28:08,457
Are they all in tandem with layer one is my guess,

340
00:28:08,457 --> 00:28:09,297
but I don't know.

341
00:28:09,297 --> 00:28:10,117
Yes, okay.

342
00:28:10,117 --> 00:28:10,957
So yeah, in Drivechain,

343
00:28:10,957 --> 00:28:15,177
it is slightly better to have the faster block time,

344
00:28:15,177 --> 00:28:16,817
I would say.

345
00:28:16,817 --> 00:28:18,097
Mostly it doesn't matter, I think,

346
00:28:18,937 --> 00:28:20,697
but is there like a sweet spot though,

347
00:28:20,697 --> 00:28:22,937
between 10 and one minute or?

348
00:28:22,937 --> 00:28:27,417
Yeah, I think the idea is with the benefit

349
00:28:27,417 --> 00:28:29,837
of the having them infrequent.

350
00:28:29,837 --> 00:28:33,777
So what Satoshi did is the 10 minutes.

351
00:28:33,777 --> 00:28:37,697
Now that the block headers are only 4.4 megabytes per year.

352
00:28:39,697 --> 00:28:42,337
And actually you can sync the proof of work of the chain

353
00:28:42,337 --> 00:28:43,237
with just that.

354
00:28:44,377 --> 00:28:46,457
So that's in the modern day,

355
00:28:47,297 --> 00:28:49,997
4.4 megabytes per year is basically nothing.

356
00:28:53,737 --> 00:28:56,177
So that's definitely a benefit.

357
00:28:57,097 --> 00:28:59,777
The benefit of having the blocks more frequently

358
00:28:59,777 --> 00:29:03,457
is that it's a little bit better user experience

359
00:29:03,457 --> 00:29:04,937
for the user.

360
00:29:04,937 --> 00:29:09,777
So my guess is that given that the internet speeds

361
00:29:09,777 --> 00:29:14,097
and the hard drive costs and everything have come down,

362
00:29:14,097 --> 00:29:18,437
that cutting it down is a little bit better.

363
00:29:20,337 --> 00:29:22,097
Eventually you can make it much too short

364
00:29:22,097 --> 00:29:24,177
and at which point you're not really binning

365
00:29:24,177 --> 00:29:25,857
the transactions into blocks anymore

366
00:29:25,857 --> 00:29:27,937
and then you lose the proof of work.

367
00:29:27,937 --> 00:29:30,697
Ideally you have too many orphans and you're not.

368
00:29:30,697 --> 00:29:35,337
The whole invention, Satoshi's whole invention was,

369
00:29:35,337 --> 00:29:37,257
instead of us tracking each transaction,

370
00:29:37,257 --> 00:29:39,217
which is not possible,

371
00:29:39,217 --> 00:29:41,977
because the consensus will fork too much,

372
00:29:41,977 --> 00:29:43,017
because of the speed of light

373
00:29:43,017 --> 00:29:45,297
and like transaction happens in Hong Kong

374
00:29:45,297 --> 00:29:47,337
and a different one happens in New York

375
00:29:47,337 --> 00:29:50,217
because the attacker has planned it out that way

376
00:29:50,217 --> 00:29:52,377
so that they're released at the same time.

377
00:29:53,577 --> 00:29:54,577
So that's not possible,

378
00:29:54,577 --> 00:29:56,657
but if instead you have a 10 minute block

379
00:29:56,657 --> 00:29:59,257
and the block header is only 80 bytes,

380
00:29:59,257 --> 00:30:01,417
it's good to get 80 bytes around the whole planet

381
00:30:01,417 --> 00:30:04,817
in 10 minutes on average is very, very, very, very easy.

382
00:30:04,817 --> 00:30:07,017
So this was kind of the whole invention.

383
00:30:07,017 --> 00:30:11,817
And I would say that between 2.5 and 10 minutes

384
00:30:12,657 --> 00:30:15,777
is not a significant difference, I think.

385
00:30:17,657 --> 00:30:20,017
I think the temptation is certainly

386
00:30:20,017 --> 00:30:21,497
to make them really, really short

387
00:30:21,497 --> 00:30:23,777
so that it looks like people get immediate feedback

388
00:30:23,777 --> 00:30:25,737
when they make the transaction.

389
00:30:25,737 --> 00:30:27,937
I kind of think that's a mistake

390
00:30:27,937 --> 00:30:30,697
because if you really think about it,

391
00:30:30,697 --> 00:30:35,697
it has to be like nearly instant when you pay

392
00:30:36,177 --> 00:30:37,497
or it doesn't matter at all.

393
00:30:37,497 --> 00:30:40,937
Like people used to compare Bitcoin to like a credit card

394
00:30:40,937 --> 00:30:41,937
where they could charge,

395
00:30:41,937 --> 00:30:43,497
the merchant could do the charge back

396
00:30:43,497 --> 00:30:44,897
or you could charge back the merchant

397
00:30:44,897 --> 00:30:47,737
like 90 days later or 30 days later.

398
00:30:47,737 --> 00:30:50,537
In some cases people would do that.

399
00:30:50,537 --> 00:30:53,497
So that was the real apples to apples comparison

400
00:30:53,497 --> 00:30:55,217
back in the early days of Bitcoin,

401
00:30:55,217 --> 00:30:57,857
back when people cared about the fundamental comparisons

402
00:30:57,857 --> 00:30:58,897
and things like that.

403
00:30:59,977 --> 00:31:03,817
But now it's more easy,

404
00:31:03,817 --> 00:31:08,577
it's possible to achieve like an instant payment

405
00:31:08,657 --> 00:31:12,097
even when the transaction is unconfirmed.

406
00:31:12,097 --> 00:31:14,937
And it's also the case that I think most people don't care

407
00:31:14,937 --> 00:31:16,417
because in most cases it doesn't matter.

408
00:31:16,417 --> 00:31:19,217
You buy something in person, the person's there

409
00:31:19,217 --> 00:31:23,177
or if you buy like coffee, your face is on the camera,

410
00:31:23,177 --> 00:31:25,297
the security camera and they can call the police

411
00:31:25,297 --> 00:31:27,177
and have you arrested for shoplifting.

412
00:31:28,297 --> 00:31:29,977
And of course most people aren't thieves

413
00:31:29,977 --> 00:31:32,377
but that's not to say that they wouldn't become thieves

414
00:31:32,377 --> 00:31:35,177
but I'm just saying like other types of things

415
00:31:35,177 --> 00:31:38,697
that you could buy, they can easily cancel.

416
00:31:38,697 --> 00:31:40,097
So you buy something on Amazon

417
00:31:40,097 --> 00:31:43,257
and then you do a hacker move to like,

418
00:31:43,257 --> 00:31:45,377
because the transaction didn't confirm,

419
00:31:45,377 --> 00:31:47,217
so you double spend.

420
00:31:47,217 --> 00:31:49,417
I mean, that's gonna happen within 10 minutes

421
00:31:51,137 --> 00:31:52,937
or within 2.5 minutes.

422
00:31:52,937 --> 00:31:55,417
So Amazon will just interpret that

423
00:31:55,417 --> 00:31:56,777
as you canceling the order.

424
00:31:57,697 --> 00:31:59,457
But there's an enormous percentage,

425
00:31:59,457 --> 00:32:03,697
much more than 50% of economic activity

426
00:32:03,697 --> 00:32:07,457
will not care at all about the block time

427
00:32:07,457 --> 00:32:11,177
being 2.5 versus 10 minutes.

428
00:32:11,177 --> 00:32:12,777
And then people might say, well,

429
00:32:12,777 --> 00:32:13,977
if we get it down to one,

430
00:32:13,977 --> 00:32:16,137
some people have pushed the envelope

431
00:32:16,137 --> 00:32:18,457
where they have a one second block time.

432
00:32:19,417 --> 00:32:21,537
And that is a mistake.

433
00:32:21,537 --> 00:32:24,297
What you should do, if you really care about speed,

434
00:32:24,297 --> 00:32:27,017
you should be within the slower block universe

435
00:32:27,017 --> 00:32:28,057
and you should build some special,

436
00:32:28,057 --> 00:32:29,457
there's plenty of actually special,

437
00:32:29,457 --> 00:32:31,097
people have come up with interesting ideas

438
00:32:31,097 --> 00:32:35,137
about you like float like a $200 bond

439
00:32:35,137 --> 00:32:38,377
and then everything transaction you make,

440
00:32:38,377 --> 00:32:39,217
you link to that.

441
00:32:39,217 --> 00:32:41,497
And if anyone ever has evidence

442
00:32:41,497 --> 00:32:43,497
that you have signed something twice,

443
00:32:43,497 --> 00:32:44,937
because you have to sign something twice

444
00:32:44,937 --> 00:32:46,817
so they can bring the evidence and destroy.

445
00:32:46,817 --> 00:32:49,617
So now all payments less than $200.

446
00:32:49,617 --> 00:32:54,297
Henceforth, you can credibly say

447
00:32:54,297 --> 00:32:57,337
that you will not double spend.

448
00:32:57,337 --> 00:32:58,697
And there's other types of things too,

449
00:32:58,697 --> 00:33:02,817
people have suggested you buy gift cards,

450
00:33:02,817 --> 00:33:04,657
you do bit refill or something.

451
00:33:04,657 --> 00:33:07,897
So you have your Bitcoin at the beginning of the month,

452
00:33:07,897 --> 00:33:11,937
you buy $200 Starbucks gift card or whatever.

453
00:33:11,937 --> 00:33:14,857
And then you're in the Starbucks system.

454
00:33:14,857 --> 00:33:17,537
So then they have the rapidly updated

455
00:33:17,537 --> 00:33:19,537
gift card transaction each time.

456
00:33:19,537 --> 00:33:20,977
And now everything's fine.

457
00:33:20,977 --> 00:33:22,297
So there's many ways around this

458
00:33:22,297 --> 00:33:27,297
without destroying the L1 via a block time

459
00:33:28,297 --> 00:33:30,217
that is too fast.

460
00:33:30,217 --> 00:33:32,977
Yeah, I think a good internet speed.

461
00:33:32,977 --> 00:33:37,857
So the 2.5 is probably closer to the sweet spot now.

462
00:33:37,857 --> 00:33:40,017
People have said stuff about like,

463
00:33:40,017 --> 00:33:43,297
Satoshi was worried about undersea internet cables

464
00:33:43,297 --> 00:33:44,257
being cut and stuff.

465
00:33:44,257 --> 00:33:45,497
And this is how he got to 10 minutes.

466
00:33:45,497 --> 00:33:47,577
It was originally 15 minutes in the code,

467
00:33:47,577 --> 00:33:49,217
a little bit of trivia fact for you

468
00:33:49,217 --> 00:33:50,817
that maybe a lot of people don't know.

469
00:33:50,817 --> 00:33:54,337
You can go back and there's like a commented out line

470
00:33:54,337 --> 00:33:56,857
where there's originally 15 minutes.

471
00:33:56,857 --> 00:34:00,497
So he, the last minute made 10 minutes.

472
00:34:00,497 --> 00:34:02,457
Yeah, I wanna say Charlie was at an MIT,

473
00:34:02,457 --> 00:34:05,417
I have to find this video to prove this.

474
00:34:05,417 --> 00:34:07,097
But I think at his MIT talk,

475
00:34:07,097 --> 00:34:09,137
he mentioned that Satoshi had made it up.

476
00:34:10,017 --> 00:34:13,137
So, and he thought 2.5 was more ideal.

477
00:34:13,137 --> 00:34:14,377
So it's interesting.

478
00:34:14,377 --> 00:34:17,137
I also think there's a media broadcast,

479
00:34:17,137 --> 00:34:18,897
so you might not have the confirmation,

480
00:34:18,897 --> 00:34:21,297
but you can see the transactions already kind of,

481
00:34:21,297 --> 00:34:22,577
it registers immediately.

482
00:34:22,577 --> 00:34:25,377
Zero conf transaction hits your wallet immediately.

483
00:34:25,377 --> 00:34:26,217
Correct.

484
00:34:26,217 --> 00:34:27,697
So you have to then say,

485
00:34:27,697 --> 00:34:30,097
I've never seen a transaction fail personally.

486
00:34:30,097 --> 00:34:33,617
I mean, it also depends completely on

487
00:34:33,617 --> 00:34:35,217
the relationship you have with the person.

488
00:34:35,217 --> 00:34:39,057
So again, if this is like your employer

489
00:34:40,417 --> 00:34:41,657
and you work for them,

490
00:34:41,657 --> 00:34:44,337
you get paid at the end of the month or twice,

491
00:34:44,337 --> 00:34:46,217
15th and the 30th of every month.

492
00:34:48,137 --> 00:34:50,537
Like what, they're gonna,

493
00:34:50,537 --> 00:34:51,377
yeah.

494
00:34:51,377 --> 00:34:52,217
You see what I mean?

495
00:34:52,217 --> 00:34:53,057
It doesn't make any sense.

496
00:34:53,057 --> 00:34:54,137
It's like, you just call them and say,

497
00:34:54,137 --> 00:34:55,617
the payment didn't go through.

498
00:34:55,617 --> 00:34:56,857
And then you're either gonna quit.

499
00:34:56,857 --> 00:34:59,217
I mean, he's either planning to screw you

500
00:34:59,217 --> 00:35:00,217
out of your last paycheck,

501
00:35:00,217 --> 00:35:02,297
in which case you're screwed no matter what.

502
00:35:02,297 --> 00:35:03,137
It makes nothing to do,

503
00:35:03,137 --> 00:35:04,577
it hasn't, you know, Bitcoin or Litecoin,

504
00:35:04,577 --> 00:35:06,017
it's nothing to do with it.

505
00:35:06,017 --> 00:35:07,497
And so it's, you know,

506
00:35:07,497 --> 00:35:08,977
if you know the person,

507
00:35:08,977 --> 00:35:09,857
like there's a million,

508
00:35:09,857 --> 00:35:11,537
there's a million reasons why it doesn't,

509
00:35:11,537 --> 00:35:12,977
is misunderstood.

510
00:35:14,057 --> 00:35:18,217
Your case for Drivechains as a security measure

511
00:35:18,217 --> 00:35:20,937
for the adopting network, okay.

512
00:35:20,937 --> 00:35:22,657
Or a benefit to miners.

513
00:35:22,657 --> 00:35:24,177
We already talked about this a little bit,

514
00:35:24,417 --> 00:35:27,097
just elaborate more on that one.

515
00:35:28,577 --> 00:35:31,257
Well, you're referring to the fact that,

516
00:35:31,257 --> 00:35:33,537
you know, the more monies the miners make,

517
00:35:33,537 --> 00:35:36,497
the more money the miners must spend on mining.

518
00:35:36,497 --> 00:35:38,737
And so there we have,

519
00:35:38,737 --> 00:35:40,937
again, if we care about proof of work,

520
00:35:40,937 --> 00:35:41,777
which we do,

521
00:35:41,777 --> 00:35:44,977
we want the miners to spend a lot of money on mining.

522
00:35:44,977 --> 00:35:47,657
But the miners cannot possibly spend any more money

523
00:35:47,657 --> 00:35:49,017
than we pay them.

524
00:35:49,017 --> 00:35:51,617
You know, otherwise they will go out of business.

525
00:35:51,617 --> 00:35:56,177
So if the revenue is choked up,

526
00:35:57,577 --> 00:36:01,457
then imagine a world where we only spend,

527
00:36:01,457 --> 00:36:04,137
all of the transaction fee revenue on the whole chain

528
00:36:04,137 --> 00:36:06,137
is 10 cents a year.

529
00:36:06,137 --> 00:36:07,617
You know, this is like in physics,

530
00:36:07,617 --> 00:36:08,657
to take an extreme case,

531
00:36:08,657 --> 00:36:10,137
just to make an example,

532
00:36:10,137 --> 00:36:12,337
even if it's a little absurd.

533
00:36:12,337 --> 00:36:13,177
But you just say,

534
00:36:13,177 --> 00:36:15,577
well, it's theoretically possible that the blocks,

535
00:36:15,577 --> 00:36:18,537
the block subsidy runs down to zero.

536
00:36:18,537 --> 00:36:20,537
All 21 million Bitcoins have been mined

537
00:36:20,537 --> 00:36:22,617
or all 84 million Bitcoins have been mined.

538
00:36:22,617 --> 00:36:26,657
And now everyone only pays like a,

539
00:36:26,657 --> 00:36:29,177
so a lot of people pay zero sats per transaction

540
00:36:29,177 --> 00:36:30,857
or they paid almost nothing.

541
00:36:30,857 --> 00:36:33,257
And so it just adds up to 10 cents per year.

542
00:36:34,417 --> 00:36:36,457
Well, you know, in this world,

543
00:36:36,457 --> 00:36:38,337
Satoshi really shouldn't have bothered

544
00:36:38,337 --> 00:36:39,617
to create proof of work

545
00:36:39,617 --> 00:36:41,177
because what difference does it really make?

546
00:36:41,177 --> 00:36:44,377
If you have miners out there spending,

547
00:36:45,217 --> 00:36:48,217
you know, half of the network is spending 5 cents a year

548
00:36:48,217 --> 00:36:50,897
and the other half is spending 4.9 cents a year

549
00:36:52,177 --> 00:36:54,537
on shots of 56 mining.

550
00:36:54,537 --> 00:36:55,777
Well, you know, this isn't,

551
00:36:55,777 --> 00:36:56,617
that's not real.

552
00:36:56,617 --> 00:36:58,377
Like it doesn't,

553
00:36:58,377 --> 00:37:00,497
at that point we don't really have any proof of work.

554
00:37:00,497 --> 00:37:05,497
So like the idea of like a government attacker

555
00:37:05,657 --> 00:37:08,137
with a huge budget or,

556
00:37:08,137 --> 00:37:09,817
you know, whatever Russian mafia,

557
00:37:09,817 --> 00:37:10,777
just take your pick,

558
00:37:10,777 --> 00:37:13,057
Chinese government, US NSA, whatever,

559
00:37:13,057 --> 00:37:14,417
you know, just take your pick.

560
00:37:14,417 --> 00:37:15,257
Whoever it is,

561
00:37:15,257 --> 00:37:16,937
they're gonna be able to easily,

562
00:37:16,937 --> 00:37:17,937
you wanna keep,

563
00:37:19,377 --> 00:37:21,457
you know, they will easily be able to spend enough money

564
00:37:21,457 --> 00:37:23,857
to like fork the network 10 trillion times or something

565
00:37:23,857 --> 00:37:25,137
and just stop it from operating,

566
00:37:25,137 --> 00:37:28,257
buying a trillion empty blocks in a row or whatever.

567
00:37:28,257 --> 00:37:32,657
So we want the much healthier thing

568
00:37:32,657 --> 00:37:34,857
and the much more possible thing

569
00:37:34,857 --> 00:37:36,977
is to just try to continue to collect

570
00:37:36,977 --> 00:37:39,017
more and more transaction fees

571
00:37:39,017 --> 00:37:40,497
on not only the L1,

572
00:37:40,497 --> 00:37:41,337
but all the L2s,

573
00:37:41,337 --> 00:37:43,097
have them all be merged mine.

574
00:37:43,097 --> 00:37:44,097
Miners collect them all

575
00:37:44,097 --> 00:37:46,417
without doing any additional work.

576
00:37:47,737 --> 00:37:50,337
And then they can just do more work

577
00:37:50,337 --> 00:37:51,497
on the proof of work,

578
00:37:51,497 --> 00:37:53,617
you know, the L1 hashing.

579
00:37:53,617 --> 00:37:55,177
And this is a scenario

580
00:37:55,177 --> 00:37:57,057
where the miners are getting very, very wealthy.

581
00:37:57,057 --> 00:38:00,017
They're constantly expanding their operations.

582
00:38:00,017 --> 00:38:01,417
They are pushing the boundaries

583
00:38:01,417 --> 00:38:05,217
on efficient ASICs, cheap power.

584
00:38:05,217 --> 00:38:06,497
They're scaling up and up and up.

585
00:38:06,497 --> 00:38:07,417
And this is a world,

586
00:38:07,417 --> 00:38:08,737
this is a completely different world

587
00:38:08,737 --> 00:38:11,737
where you have the NSA meeting

588
00:38:11,737 --> 00:38:15,097
about the Russian mafia meeting or whatever,

589
00:38:15,097 --> 00:38:16,937
and they want to disrupt this thing.

590
00:38:16,937 --> 00:38:17,777
And they say,

591
00:38:17,777 --> 00:38:19,817
well, like, you know,

592
00:38:19,817 --> 00:38:21,977
we don't have enough money,

593
00:38:21,977 --> 00:38:23,617
you know, we don't have enough money to do that.

594
00:38:23,617 --> 00:38:24,457
Where it's like,

595
00:38:24,457 --> 00:38:27,337
or just maybe it's theoretically possible,

596
00:38:27,337 --> 00:38:28,537
but there's a big difference

597
00:38:28,537 --> 00:38:30,497
between Liberty Reserve

598
00:38:30,497 --> 00:38:33,057
where they're paying all these people anyway,

599
00:38:33,057 --> 00:38:35,297
and they seize a server somewhere.

600
00:38:35,297 --> 00:38:36,777
Sometimes they just need to send an email,

601
00:38:36,777 --> 00:38:37,617
a phone call.

602
00:38:37,617 --> 00:38:38,457
And they say,

603
00:38:38,457 --> 00:38:39,297
by the way, we are the government

604
00:38:39,297 --> 00:38:41,937
and we will destroy everything

605
00:38:41,937 --> 00:38:42,777
and imprison everyone

606
00:38:42,777 --> 00:38:44,617
if you don't cooperate with us

607
00:38:45,137 --> 00:38:45,977
and that's what they're doing

608
00:38:45,977 --> 00:38:47,577
on the stuff for us right now.

609
00:38:47,577 --> 00:38:48,417
So you have,

610
00:38:48,417 --> 00:38:49,377
there's a big difference between that

611
00:38:49,377 --> 00:38:52,977
and okay, we now need like a Manhattan project.

612
00:38:52,977 --> 00:38:54,457
We need to build like, you know,

613
00:38:54,457 --> 00:38:55,697
nuclear power plants

614
00:38:55,697 --> 00:38:57,177
and build like a giant thing.

615
00:38:57,177 --> 00:38:59,817
And we need to acquire all this ASIC chips

616
00:38:59,817 --> 00:39:03,577
or somehow, you know,

617
00:39:03,577 --> 00:39:05,457
seize them or something

618
00:39:05,457 --> 00:39:07,017
and then keep them plugged in.

619
00:39:07,017 --> 00:39:09,097
And then we're going to do 51% attack

620
00:39:09,097 --> 00:39:10,177
on the Bitcoin network.

621
00:39:10,177 --> 00:39:13,137
And we're going to hold down the attack button.

622
00:39:14,617 --> 00:39:15,457
And we're kind of going to hope

623
00:39:15,457 --> 00:39:16,857
that they don't change the algorithm

624
00:39:16,857 --> 00:39:17,737
or something else.

625
00:39:17,737 --> 00:39:19,297
It just makes it like,

626
00:39:19,297 --> 00:39:21,057
it's a really a night and day difference between.

627
00:39:21,057 --> 00:39:23,137
So we just want more and more transaction fees

628
00:39:23,137 --> 00:39:24,097
is better for everyone.

629
00:39:24,097 --> 00:39:26,577
And that's being more loyalty to the,

630
00:39:26,577 --> 00:39:28,777
miners have more loyalty to the users.

631
00:39:28,777 --> 00:39:30,217
The users are,

632
00:39:30,217 --> 00:39:33,097
if we don't please the user in the long run,

633
00:39:33,937 --> 00:39:34,897
someone else will

634
00:39:34,897 --> 00:39:36,457
and the whole project will die.

635
00:39:36,457 --> 00:39:39,457
So these are the many reasons

636
00:39:39,457 --> 00:39:41,017
why we must focus on that.

637
00:39:41,017 --> 00:39:42,777
Because it's network security, right?

638
00:39:42,777 --> 00:39:45,657
And how would you say,

639
00:39:45,657 --> 00:39:46,897
and you mentioned merge mining.

640
00:39:46,897 --> 00:39:50,937
So obviously Litecoin is merge mine, right?

641
00:39:50,937 --> 00:39:52,977
It's, it's sCrypt, not SHA-256,

642
00:39:52,977 --> 00:39:54,337
but it's got Doge merge to it.

643
00:39:54,337 --> 00:39:55,657
It's got Bell's coin, a bunch of-

644
00:39:55,657 --> 00:39:57,137
Litecoin is the host.

645
00:39:57,137 --> 00:39:58,257
It's the host.

646
00:39:58,257 --> 00:40:00,257
Doge is the guest in this case.

647
00:40:00,257 --> 00:40:01,097
Correct.

648
00:40:01,097 --> 00:40:03,577
But together, miners benefit from it.

649
00:40:03,577 --> 00:40:06,417
I say that you can still mine sCrypt at home.

650
00:40:06,417 --> 00:40:08,657
I don't, I don't know if you can do that with Bitcoin

651
00:40:08,657 --> 00:40:10,057
because I know they're extremely expensive

652
00:40:10,057 --> 00:40:12,097
and it's like, you're taking fractions,

653
00:40:12,457 --> 00:40:13,737
like you really have to be

654
00:40:13,737 --> 00:40:15,657
professional grade mining for Bitcoin.

655
00:40:15,657 --> 00:40:17,897
From what I'm seeing versus home mining

656
00:40:17,897 --> 00:40:21,377
seems to be a far, far off possibility for most.

657
00:40:22,457 --> 00:40:23,937
sCrypt through merge mining

658
00:40:23,937 --> 00:40:25,217
and their ASICs aren't quite,

659
00:40:25,217 --> 00:40:26,857
you know, they're different.

660
00:40:26,857 --> 00:40:29,697
It's still possible to run at home,

661
00:40:29,697 --> 00:40:30,897
although it's not as cheap, of course,

662
00:40:30,897 --> 00:40:32,857
as it was once upon a time with Core, right?

663
00:40:32,857 --> 00:40:34,457
Those, those days are long gone.

664
00:40:34,457 --> 00:40:37,097
But how would you describe maybe sCrypt

665
00:40:37,097 --> 00:40:39,177
that has merge mining

666
00:40:39,177 --> 00:40:40,897
and that profit kind of model

667
00:40:40,897 --> 00:40:42,937
for the miners to Drivechain?

668
00:40:44,017 --> 00:40:48,377
I think merge mining is very difficult to understand

669
00:40:48,377 --> 00:40:50,977
because it's so cool that people don't believe

670
00:40:50,977 --> 00:40:51,817
that it's real.

671
00:40:51,817 --> 00:40:54,697
I was on Nick Carter's podcast at some point

672
00:40:54,697 --> 00:40:56,577
and I described it as,

673
00:40:56,577 --> 00:40:57,657
it's like you have a train,

674
00:40:57,657 --> 00:41:00,977
like a locomotive hauling a freight train,

675
00:41:00,977 --> 00:41:03,497
hauling a bunch of coal or something.

676
00:41:03,497 --> 00:41:07,897
And as you clip on more carts,

677
00:41:07,897 --> 00:41:10,217
the train actually goes faster,

678
00:41:10,257 --> 00:41:12,057
uses less energy.

679
00:41:12,057 --> 00:41:14,777
And people just think, like, how is that possible?

680
00:41:14,777 --> 00:41:18,177
And of course, I think if people do understand it,

681
00:41:18,177 --> 00:41:19,017
then they get excited about it.

682
00:41:19,017 --> 00:41:21,017
And they think, why don't we slow down?

683
00:41:21,017 --> 00:41:23,137
We've got to maximize this, this thing.

684
00:41:23,137 --> 00:41:25,657
Cause we got to like, somehow the universe has given us,

685
00:41:25,657 --> 00:41:28,777
you know, we've got this, an opportunity to like,

686
00:41:28,777 --> 00:41:30,857
you know, punch above our weight here.

687
00:41:30,857 --> 00:41:33,657
And so actually the sCrypt part on L1

688
00:41:33,657 --> 00:41:37,657
or the SHA-256D, double SHA-256 on Bitcoin,

689
00:41:38,577 --> 00:41:40,417
that is actually not really relevant.

690
00:41:40,417 --> 00:41:43,417
So the merge mining is something you do

691
00:41:43,417 --> 00:41:44,937
on the other network

692
00:41:44,937 --> 00:41:47,897
and you make it so that your chain

693
00:41:47,897 --> 00:41:49,617
or your block header,

694
00:41:49,617 --> 00:41:53,377
part of it resembles perfectly a Litecoin header

695
00:41:53,377 --> 00:41:54,217
or a Bitcoin header.

696
00:41:54,217 --> 00:41:57,777
So actually not only does the L1 blockchain,

697
00:41:57,777 --> 00:41:59,377
the L1 miners know.

698
00:41:59,377 --> 00:42:01,697
That's kind of confusing because there's L1 miners

699
00:42:01,697 --> 00:42:05,017
and nodes, and then there's L2 miners and nodes.

700
00:42:05,017 --> 00:42:06,737
And it's, so it's a little bit confusing.

701
00:42:06,937 --> 00:42:09,297
Hopefully I'll try, I'm going to try to explain it.

702
00:42:09,297 --> 00:42:14,297
But the L1, the L1 nodes have no idea

703
00:42:15,857 --> 00:42:18,377
how many chains are being merge mined with them.

704
00:42:18,377 --> 00:42:20,297
The L1 miners know because they're getting more money

705
00:42:20,297 --> 00:42:21,137
for free.

706
00:42:21,137 --> 00:42:21,977
Correct.

707
00:42:21,977 --> 00:42:23,457
But the L1 nodes have no idea

708
00:42:23,457 --> 00:42:25,777
and there's actually nothing you can do to prevent.

709
00:42:25,777 --> 00:42:29,057
It's impossible to censor or stop.

710
00:42:29,057 --> 00:42:32,257
It's impossible for like the L1 full nodes

711
00:42:33,097 --> 00:42:34,457
to stop the merge mining.

712
00:42:34,457 --> 00:42:35,897
Cause it actually happens somewhere else.

713
00:42:35,897 --> 00:42:38,497
It's actually on the other network.

714
00:42:38,497 --> 00:42:40,657
You know, it would be on the Doge node or whatever.

715
00:42:40,657 --> 00:42:41,497
Right.

716
00:42:41,497 --> 00:42:45,017
And the Doge node has just created basically

717
00:42:45,017 --> 00:42:50,017
a blockchain header that in some ways part

718
00:42:50,297 --> 00:42:51,217
a Litecoin header.

719
00:42:51,217 --> 00:42:53,697
And so you actually, the miners actually mine that

720
00:42:53,697 --> 00:42:55,857
and they find they hit both blocks at once

721
00:42:55,857 --> 00:42:58,857
or it depends slightly on exactly how it works.

722
00:42:58,857 --> 00:43:02,057
So I hope that made some sense as in terms of like

723
00:43:02,057 --> 00:43:05,657
the script versus SHA256D and L1, it makes no difference.

724
00:43:06,417 --> 00:43:09,817
The merge mining is a technique for secretly riding along.

725
00:43:09,817 --> 00:43:14,057
You sneakily, you sneak up on the train

726
00:43:14,057 --> 00:43:16,897
or like the skateboarders who grab the car or something.

727
00:43:16,897 --> 00:43:20,657
But it has, that's where the analogy stops working

728
00:43:20,657 --> 00:43:23,857
because not only in the real world you could,

729
00:43:23,857 --> 00:43:27,217
you would notice if a skateboarder grabbed onto your car

730
00:43:27,217 --> 00:43:28,057
and you would say, stop it.

731
00:43:28,057 --> 00:43:30,977
And you would even notice like that your fuel efficiency

732
00:43:30,977 --> 00:43:33,817
was a little bit lower and that the car didn't handle

733
00:43:33,817 --> 00:43:34,657
as well.

734
00:43:34,657 --> 00:43:36,617
But that's where the analogy breaks down.

735
00:43:36,617 --> 00:43:38,857
You don't have any idea how many people,

736
00:43:38,857 --> 00:43:41,657
there could be 10 trillion people merge mining

737
00:43:41,657 --> 00:43:45,457
on your car and you cannot get rid of them.

738
00:43:45,457 --> 00:43:46,897
And you have no idea that they're there.

739
00:43:46,897 --> 00:43:50,017
And it does not impede the car in any way.

740
00:43:50,017 --> 00:43:53,377
And in fact, you notice that your car is actually,

741
00:43:53,377 --> 00:43:56,177
it doesn't need the oil changes or something.

742
00:43:56,177 --> 00:43:57,337
I don't know what the analogy would be,

743
00:43:57,337 --> 00:43:58,577
but the more money is coming in.

744
00:43:58,577 --> 00:44:02,137
Somehow the car is driving you around easier than before.

745
00:44:02,137 --> 00:44:03,617
You just be like, wow.

746
00:44:03,617 --> 00:44:04,777
But it helps security

747
00:44:04,777 --> 00:44:06,257
because there's more profit going to miners.

748
00:44:06,257 --> 00:44:08,737
Even though, like you said, the doge node,

749
00:44:08,737 --> 00:44:10,697
when you're only, hey, I want to send doge

750
00:44:10,697 --> 00:44:13,017
versus a light node, they're not talking to each other.

751
00:44:13,017 --> 00:44:14,937
They're one to another separate.

752
00:44:14,937 --> 00:44:17,577
But at the mining level, at the script level,

753
00:44:17,577 --> 00:44:21,657
S script level, they're connected in terms of mining.

754
00:44:21,657 --> 00:44:22,497
It's interesting.

755
00:44:22,497 --> 00:44:25,497
So Drivechains, you wouldn't, even though you,

756
00:44:25,497 --> 00:44:27,497
and we'll talk about this Blind Merged Mining thing,

757
00:44:27,497 --> 00:44:31,977
but you're not seeing it really relating

758
00:44:31,977 --> 00:44:35,297
to current merge mining as we know it.

759
00:44:35,297 --> 00:44:38,497
It's very different, the Drivechain mining.

760
00:44:38,497 --> 00:44:41,377
Well, I came up with a variation of merge mining

761
00:44:41,377 --> 00:44:42,977
called Blind Merged Mining.

762
00:44:42,977 --> 00:44:45,417
And even though BIP300

763
00:44:45,417 --> 00:44:48,377
is inexplicably controversial among some,

764
00:44:48,377 --> 00:44:49,977
although you can explain some of it

765
00:44:49,977 --> 00:44:52,417
as we could get into that later,

766
00:44:52,417 --> 00:44:56,817
but BIP301, which is Blind Merged Mining,

767
00:44:56,817 --> 00:45:00,737
there was only ever this one guy who didn't like it.

768
00:45:00,737 --> 00:45:03,177
And then we eventually, he came on a few spaces

769
00:45:03,177 --> 00:45:05,137
back in 2023, and I did the spaces.

770
00:45:05,137 --> 00:45:08,057
And then after like two or three episodes

771
00:45:08,057 --> 00:45:09,817
that were each like three hours long,

772
00:45:09,817 --> 00:45:12,897
then he was like, I understand it better now.

773
00:45:12,897 --> 00:45:14,417
And he liked it.

774
00:45:14,417 --> 00:45:18,177
So BIP301, there's never really been any controversy about.

775
00:45:20,017 --> 00:45:22,257
And in fact, it was used in Reuben Thompson's

776
00:45:22,257 --> 00:45:24,137
like space chains, like these other projects

777
00:45:24,137 --> 00:45:26,337
that actually kind of existed temporarily on Bitcoin.

778
00:45:26,337 --> 00:45:28,817
They're very, very unambitious projects.

779
00:45:28,817 --> 00:45:30,337
A space chain is kind of like a Drivechain,

780
00:45:30,937 --> 00:45:32,497
but you send the coins

781
00:45:32,497 --> 00:45:34,017
and then they're immediately obliterated.

782
00:45:34,017 --> 00:45:35,737
So not only is there no,

783
00:45:35,737 --> 00:45:37,737
there's no ATM machine like of the coins

784
00:45:37,737 --> 00:45:39,737
going back and forth, but there's just one way

785
00:45:39,737 --> 00:45:41,497
and then it's a black hole.

786
00:45:41,497 --> 00:45:44,017
So I thought, well, that's not a great,

787
00:45:44,017 --> 00:45:45,697
you know, that's not that great of an idea.

788
00:45:45,697 --> 00:45:50,697
But the point is that this Blind Merged Mining thing,

789
00:45:51,257 --> 00:45:52,337
that I don't think there's a big,

790
00:45:52,337 --> 00:45:54,337
too much of a big controversy about it.

791
00:45:54,337 --> 00:45:57,017
And in my view, it's very similar.

792
00:45:58,017 --> 00:46:00,657
The end result is very similar,

793
00:46:00,657 --> 00:46:03,777
but I can describe the differences if you like.

794
00:46:03,777 --> 00:46:04,777
Yes, do it.

795
00:46:04,777 --> 00:46:07,017
We've got time, as far as I know.

796
00:46:07,017 --> 00:46:11,737
The original merge mining was, you would run like the,

797
00:46:11,737 --> 00:46:14,057
okay, so like Namecoin was the first altcoin

798
00:46:14,057 --> 00:46:15,977
and it was also the origin of merge mining.

799
00:46:15,977 --> 00:46:18,977
So Toshi invented merge mining like in 2010.

800
00:46:18,977 --> 00:46:20,417
Was it ever merge mined?

801
00:46:21,217 --> 00:46:23,817
Yes, in fact, it is the slip from merge mining

802
00:46:23,817 --> 00:46:26,417
and it is still, since 2011,

803
00:46:26,417 --> 00:46:28,137
it has been continuously merge mined

804
00:46:28,137 --> 00:46:30,297
with Bitcoin to this day.

805
00:46:30,297 --> 00:46:32,817
And that was for DNS, decentralized DNS, correct?

806
00:46:32,817 --> 00:46:33,657
That's right.

807
00:46:33,657 --> 00:46:35,657
Like kind of like an ICANN or-

808
00:46:35,657 --> 00:46:37,097
It was to replace ICANN.

809
00:46:37,097 --> 00:46:38,977
Yeah, which is-

810
00:46:38,977 --> 00:46:39,857
Or compete with.

811
00:46:39,857 --> 00:46:40,697
Compete with.

812
00:46:40,697 --> 00:46:41,537
Potential is there.

813
00:46:41,537 --> 00:46:45,457
And this is part of the, you know, what might've been.

814
00:46:45,457 --> 00:46:48,617
For some reason, this is the huge topic,

815
00:46:48,617 --> 00:46:50,057
but it makes me sad.

816
00:46:50,057 --> 00:46:51,857
Bitcoiners used to dream big

817
00:46:51,857 --> 00:46:56,617
and we used to have like the vision of like technology,

818
00:46:56,617 --> 00:46:58,577
just like devouring everything

819
00:46:58,577 --> 00:47:02,097
and it'd all be open source, sovereignty to the user,

820
00:47:02,097 --> 00:47:05,657
this free speech kind of Richard Stallman super era

821
00:47:05,657 --> 00:47:08,777
was almost like the, that was almost the attitude.

822
00:47:08,777 --> 00:47:11,377
And it was like, Bitcoin is only the beginning

823
00:47:11,377 --> 00:47:14,897
and we're going to have like more contracts and et cetera.

824
00:47:14,897 --> 00:47:16,577
You know, this was kind of vague.

825
00:47:16,577 --> 00:47:17,617
It was kind of half-baked,

826
00:47:17,617 --> 00:47:20,617
but it's interesting that Namecoin was so,

827
00:47:20,617 --> 00:47:23,537
so quick off the, this is right in 2010.

828
00:47:24,497 --> 00:47:27,377
Bitcoin is still very, very, very small

829
00:47:27,377 --> 00:47:29,177
and yet people floated this idea.

830
00:47:30,137 --> 00:47:31,617
And we can talk all about that if you want,

831
00:47:31,617 --> 00:47:34,177
but the point of this story is just that

832
00:47:34,177 --> 00:47:36,697
Satoshi invented merge mining to make it

833
00:47:36,697 --> 00:47:39,457
so that the two networks would share hash power.

834
00:47:40,537 --> 00:47:41,857
And it's a great invention.

835
00:47:41,857 --> 00:47:43,737
And I think it will end up, you know,

836
00:47:43,737 --> 00:47:48,537
like it's the future of the blockchain model is to have-

837
00:47:48,537 --> 00:47:51,537
And with energy consumption too, right?

838
00:47:51,537 --> 00:47:52,737
Energy consumption too,

839
00:47:52,737 --> 00:47:54,297
because you're using the same amount of energy

840
00:47:54,297 --> 00:47:56,737
to secure two different products, if you will.

841
00:47:56,737 --> 00:47:59,377
Right, yeah, you reuse the proof of work

842
00:47:59,377 --> 00:48:00,777
on all the merge mine.

843
00:48:00,777 --> 00:48:03,177
The merge mine ones are along for the ride.

844
00:48:03,177 --> 00:48:08,177
So they all have the, they all benefit

845
00:48:08,257 --> 00:48:10,617
from being very, very difficult to rewrite.

846
00:48:10,617 --> 00:48:13,017
Like the attacker would have to like rewrite the L1

847
00:48:13,017 --> 00:48:15,777
to rewrite the L2 and now that's way harder.

848
00:48:15,777 --> 00:48:20,497
So, okay, so the original merge mining was like,

849
00:48:20,497 --> 00:48:24,017
the miners would switch from running the Bitcoin software

850
00:48:24,017 --> 00:48:25,657
to running the Namecoin software.

851
00:48:26,577 --> 00:48:29,617
The Namecoin software would construct a block that,

852
00:48:30,737 --> 00:48:32,937
as I said before, it was like,

853
00:48:32,937 --> 00:48:34,177
the Namecoin block was like,

854
00:48:34,177 --> 00:48:35,737
it contained a Bitcoin block in it.

855
00:48:35,737 --> 00:48:40,097
I'm not sure the best way to explain or elaborate on that.

856
00:48:40,097 --> 00:48:42,257
It's kind of like if you had,

857
00:48:42,257 --> 00:48:43,617
maybe I'll just make something up right now

858
00:48:43,617 --> 00:48:44,457
and hopefully it'll work,

859
00:48:44,457 --> 00:48:47,017
but it's kind of like if you're reading Lord of the Rings

860
00:48:47,017 --> 00:48:47,857
and then in the middle of it,

861
00:48:47,857 --> 00:48:50,097
there's like a Harry Potter chapter or something.

862
00:48:50,097 --> 00:48:52,737
And that's like, Aragorn has a dream

863
00:48:52,737 --> 00:48:54,137
but the whole text is there.

864
00:48:54,137 --> 00:48:56,337
So this is the clever technique

865
00:48:56,337 --> 00:48:58,777
is you found a Litecoin block or excuse me,

866
00:48:58,777 --> 00:49:00,657
you found a Namecoin block

867
00:49:00,657 --> 00:49:02,457
and then you've actually,

868
00:49:02,457 --> 00:49:03,817
there's a Bitcoin block right in it.

869
00:49:03,817 --> 00:49:05,297
So maybe if you really only cared

870
00:49:05,297 --> 00:49:07,937
about the Harry Potter chapter or something,

871
00:49:07,937 --> 00:49:09,937
or you cared like a hundred times more or whatever,

872
00:49:09,937 --> 00:49:11,057
it doesn't make any difference.

873
00:49:11,057 --> 00:49:11,897
Right, right.

874
00:49:12,457 --> 00:49:13,577
You're gonna get both.

875
00:49:14,897 --> 00:49:16,457
And there's some other differences too.

876
00:49:16,457 --> 00:49:19,457
Like it's possible to find only a Namecoin block.

877
00:49:19,457 --> 00:49:20,897
In Blind Merged Mining, it's not.

878
00:49:20,897 --> 00:49:23,097
In Blind Merged Mining, you find the whole set

879
00:49:23,977 --> 00:49:25,817
and you find, you must find L1

880
00:49:25,817 --> 00:49:29,137
and then you've optionally find as many L2s as there are

881
00:49:29,137 --> 00:49:32,177
and as there were in that 10 minute period.

882
00:49:32,177 --> 00:49:35,517
But in regular vanilla merge mining,

883
00:49:36,497 --> 00:49:38,897
you could theoretically just find the Namecoin block

884
00:49:38,897 --> 00:49:39,737
by itself.

885
00:49:39,737 --> 00:49:44,737
In fact, this is an aside, but it's very entertaining

886
00:49:45,777 --> 00:49:49,097
which is that Namecoin, with vanilla merge mining,

887
00:49:49,097 --> 00:49:51,097
something very unusual happened in 2017

888
00:49:51,097 --> 00:49:55,217
when Bitcoin split from BTC and Bitcoin Cash,

889
00:49:55,217 --> 00:49:57,697
which is that they did this kind of weird thing

890
00:49:57,697 --> 00:49:59,857
where one had a high difficulty,

891
00:49:59,857 --> 00:50:01,337
so miners switched to the other.

892
00:50:01,337 --> 00:50:03,097
They rushed to the other and then.

893
00:50:03,303 --> 00:50:30,303
Mined a lot of BCH blocks and then back to BTC, so there was like a kind of like a
see-sawing interesting and what happened at that time was that Namecoin could skim
the top of both each of the two networks and switch back and forth, and as a result,
Namecoin had by far the highest hash rate out of any blockchain in existence at the
time, because it is, and it because it was the highest hash rate in existence at the
time,

894
00:50:30,303 --> 00:50:32,503
because the hash rate.

895
00:50:32,503 --> 00:50:36,683
So Namecoin would be paid out to BCH miners then too?

896
00:50:36,683 --> 00:50:38,123
You would find a BCH block.

897
00:50:38,123 --> 00:50:44,383
If you're paying careful attention, the miners would find the BCH block.

898
00:50:44,383 --> 00:50:49,283
Since this is now easier, each case, I would love to explain it, I hope that people
can

899
00:50:49,283 --> 00:50:50,283
follow this.

900
00:50:50,283 --> 00:50:52,963
You know, I hope it's not, I am very interested in this, so I hope that people can
follow

901
00:50:52,963 --> 00:50:53,963
it.

902
00:50:53,963 --> 00:50:56,723
I find it fascinating, but I'm worried that people can get confused, but basically
the

903
00:50:56,723 --> 00:51:03,123
miners have the market price and the difficulty to worry about, and the difference
is the

904
00:51:03,123 --> 00:51:04,123
profit.

905
00:51:04,123 --> 00:51:06,123
So the market price is like the revenue.

906
00:51:06,123 --> 00:51:10,603
So if they get like 50 Bitcoin blocks back in the day, 50 Bitcoin blocks and a
Bitcoin

907
00:51:10,603 --> 00:51:15,303
is $1, they get $50, or whatever it is, you know.

908
00:51:15,303 --> 00:51:19,763
But the point is, that's the revenue, and then the cost is the difficulty
adjustments

909
00:51:19,763 --> 00:51:20,763
moving around.

910
00:51:20,763 --> 00:51:24,843
This is basically, you must hash this many times to find a block.

911
00:51:24,843 --> 00:51:25,843
It goes up and up and up.

912
00:51:25,843 --> 00:51:30,123
Now you need to hash a trillion times before you only need to hash a hundred times.

913
00:51:30,123 --> 00:51:33,363
Well now your costs went up, you know, a billion, or whatever it is.

914
00:51:33,363 --> 00:51:39,683
So these are the two factors, the market price and the difficulty.

915
00:51:39,683 --> 00:51:44,243
And so if the, first of all, if the market price of the two coins was flipping
around,

916
00:51:44,243 --> 00:51:46,143
this would have happened all by itself.

917
00:51:46,143 --> 00:51:57,143
But even in a situation where, for whatever reason, just because of bad luck, very
few

918
00:51:57,143 --> 00:52:01,863
blocks are found on one network, and its difficulty drops.

919
00:52:01,863 --> 00:52:03,183
Well now, remember, it's the difference.

920
00:52:03,183 --> 00:52:06,103
So it doesn't matter that the Bitcoin price could be up here, and the Bitcoin cash
price

921
00:52:06,103 --> 00:52:07,903
could be down here.

922
00:52:07,903 --> 00:52:12,663
They could be in equilibrium, where each of their difficulties adjustments has
brought

923
00:52:12,663 --> 00:52:15,943
them into a total equilibrium.

924
00:52:15,943 --> 00:52:17,903
But now one of them has a lower difficulty.

925
00:52:17,903 --> 00:52:19,903
All the miners will switch over to the lower.

926
00:52:19,903 --> 00:52:25,263
Now when they do that, the difficulty is about to get, in 2016 blocks in Bitcoin's
case,

927
00:52:25,263 --> 00:52:27,623
the difficulty is about to get a lot higher.

928
00:52:27,623 --> 00:52:29,663
Now this is unprofitable.

929
00:52:29,663 --> 00:52:32,143
So this weird thing happened.

930
00:52:32,143 --> 00:52:37,823
When they hit the BCH block, they found the BCH block at a lower difficulty.

931
00:52:37,823 --> 00:52:40,343
They could sell it for cash or whatever.

932
00:52:40,343 --> 00:52:41,343
They also found a Litecoin.

933
00:52:41,343 --> 00:52:43,023
Oh my God, I said the wrong thing.

934
00:52:43,023 --> 00:52:44,023
It's okay.

935
00:52:44,103 --> 00:52:49,423
They also found a Namecoin block.

936
00:52:49,423 --> 00:52:51,383
But that's the case no matter which block they found.

937
00:52:51,383 --> 00:52:52,383
They found the Namecoin block.

938
00:52:52,383 --> 00:52:54,903
The Namecoin block doesn't really realize why.

939
00:52:54,903 --> 00:52:59,283
It doesn't really know that half of its blocks are Bitcoin cash blocks.

940
00:52:59,283 --> 00:53:05,223
As I tried to explain even earlier in the interview, it actually has no idea.

941
00:53:05,223 --> 00:53:09,623
It doesn't hinge on anything that happens on the host network.

942
00:53:09,623 --> 00:53:10,743
So I don't know if this made any sense.

943
00:53:10,743 --> 00:53:14,023
I'm kind of going way far afield.

944
00:53:14,023 --> 00:53:16,343
I'm explaining vanilla merge mining, I suppose.

945
00:53:16,343 --> 00:53:19,703
So maybe that's helping people somehow.

946
00:53:19,703 --> 00:53:21,703
Blind Merged Mining is slightly different.

947
00:53:21,703 --> 00:53:28,303
Blind Merged Mining says, forget about the idea of if Namecoin had the blind merge
mining.

948
00:53:28,303 --> 00:53:35,783
We would say, you can now never, because Blind Merged Mining is set up for this L1,
L2 idea

949
00:53:35,783 --> 00:53:37,303
a little bit more.

950
00:53:37,303 --> 00:53:44,223
So in Blind Merged Mining, you can never find the L2 block by itself.

951
00:53:44,223 --> 00:53:45,743
It comes with the L1 block.

952
00:53:45,743 --> 00:53:51,503
It is tied to a specific L1 unalterably.

953
00:53:51,503 --> 00:53:54,703
Now you can see why I didn't really care about that, because I was thinking Bitcoin
Core

954
00:53:54,703 --> 00:53:58,703
is going to be, you know, BTC is going to be the L1, and it's going to be around
for,

955
00:53:58,703 --> 00:54:02,183
you know, whatever, a thousand years.

956
00:54:02,183 --> 00:54:06,803
So I thought that was an easy sacrifice to make.

957
00:54:06,803 --> 00:54:07,803
And that's the main sacrifice.

958
00:54:07,803 --> 00:54:10,523
You get two benefits as a result.

959
00:54:10,523 --> 00:54:16,883
The two benefits are the miners do not need to run the L2 node, hence the name blind
merge

960
00:54:16,883 --> 00:54:17,883
mining.

961
00:54:17,883 --> 00:54:22,643
They just keep running the L1 node, and they keep collecting whichever transactions
pay

962
00:54:22,643 --> 00:54:28,243
them the highest transaction fee, which is exactly what they were doing before.

963
00:54:28,243 --> 00:54:30,723
So they don't have to do anything.

964
00:54:30,723 --> 00:54:33,863
The second benefit is that they get paid in L1 coins.

965
00:54:33,863 --> 00:54:36,083
They don't actually get paid in L2 coins.

966
00:54:36,363 --> 00:54:43,243
So for example, in vanilla merge mining, you'd get paid, you know, 50 NMC, Namecoin.

967
00:54:43,243 --> 00:54:49,123
And then this led to situations where the miners were kind of collecting, because
eventually,

968
00:54:49,123 --> 00:54:54,243
by 2015 or so, there were like 15 or 16 merge mine coins, and the people like Slush
Pool

969
00:54:54,243 --> 00:54:57,643
would automatically sell them for you, and you'd just like be accumulating these
coins,

970
00:54:57,643 --> 00:55:00,163
and you're kind of like, do I want these coins?

971
00:55:00,163 --> 00:55:01,163
What do I do with these coins?

972
00:55:01,163 --> 00:55:04,623
Like, is this just like a trick to...

973
00:55:04,623 --> 00:55:08,623
And so people kind of didn't really want that.

974
00:55:08,623 --> 00:55:16,583
So it's worth emphasizing about the running of the Namecoin node, about the blind
part.

975
00:55:16,583 --> 00:55:24,863
In the past, the Namecoin software had more bugs than, you know, there wasn't as
many

976
00:55:24,863 --> 00:55:29,323
eyes on it as the Bitcoin core software.

977
00:55:29,323 --> 00:55:38,443
So if the Namecoin, you know, software application would crash, you might have to
like start

978
00:55:38,443 --> 00:55:42,003
it up, like maybe you catch it immediately and you just start it up, but this could
be

979
00:55:42,003 --> 00:55:46,323
6, 7, 8 seconds of time, you know?

980
00:55:46,323 --> 00:55:47,323
I mean, who knows?

981
00:55:47,323 --> 00:55:49,203
It could be like longer.

982
00:55:49,203 --> 00:55:50,843
This could be disastrous.

983
00:55:50,843 --> 00:55:58,723
First of all, as a miner, you have a situation where every 600 seconds in Bitcoin's
case

984
00:55:58,723 --> 00:56:00,443
is precious.

985
00:56:00,443 --> 00:56:06,243
So if you lose 6 seconds, you've lost actually 1% of your revenue, you know?

986
00:56:06,243 --> 00:56:12,923
But the other thing is the proof of work, the chips, they are supposed to be taking

987
00:56:12,923 --> 00:56:16,163
in a large amount of energy.

988
00:56:16,163 --> 00:56:20,483
So I think this has been fixed by now, but there were cases in the past where
someone

989
00:56:20,483 --> 00:56:25,763
ran a huge miner, the software crashed, they restarted it, but in the 7 or 8 seconds
it

990
00:56:25,763 --> 00:56:34,123
took to turn back on, all the ASIC chips were just sitting around and they were not

991
00:56:34,123 --> 00:56:36,643
getting any instructions, but they were still being fed power.

992
00:56:36,643 --> 00:56:39,643
And so all like, you know, the capacitors just filled up and that was like exploded

993
00:56:39,643 --> 00:56:41,763
and caught fire or something.

994
00:56:41,763 --> 00:56:46,603
So they can fix that now to just have them mine nothing, you know, so they don't
explode.

995
00:56:46,603 --> 00:56:51,923
But it did just speak to the idea that why run this risk of running, you know, why
not

996
00:56:51,923 --> 00:56:56,163
run Bitcoin Core or why not have the mining pool just do a Bitcoin Core and have
everything

997
00:56:56,163 --> 00:56:57,163
very tight.

998
00:56:57,163 --> 00:57:02,963
So that was maybe a little bit, but that's the differences between vanilla merge
mining

999
00:57:02,963 --> 00:57:03,963
and Blind Merged Mining.

1000
00:57:03,963 --> 00:57:07,323
I could explain a little bit more about under the hood about how it works.

1001
00:57:07,323 --> 00:57:12,843
I'll just say one sentence though, which is basically what happens is someone else
on

1002
00:57:12,843 --> 00:57:19,523
the L2, they assemble the block paying themselves the transaction fees in the
Coinbase as if

1003
00:57:19,523 --> 00:57:21,523
they were a miner of this.

1004
00:57:21,523 --> 00:57:25,003
And what they do instead is they brought an L1, they make a special transaction.

1005
00:57:25,003 --> 00:57:31,043
They basically bribe the, they say, I will pay this amount in transaction fees, but
only

1006
00:57:31,043 --> 00:57:37,263
if you put this particular hash code like in the Coinbase on L1.

1007
00:57:37,263 --> 00:57:42,163
So it's all about this one transaction that is either fill or kill, they have to put
it

1008
00:57:42,163 --> 00:57:45,083
in or just discard it.

1009
00:57:45,083 --> 00:57:50,423
And this encourages many, many people to try this because you're running the L2 node
anyway.

1010
00:57:50,423 --> 00:57:54,223
So you just say, well, I'll just try to make the block and the block is worth a
hundred

1011
00:57:54,223 --> 00:57:56,383
dollars or it's worth $10,000.

1012
00:57:56,383 --> 00:58:09,023
I'll pay $9,500 and either they will accept, I'll pay $9,500 on L1, but I'll get the
block,

1013
00:58:09,023 --> 00:58:12,383
I'll get the L2 block and I'll get $10,000.

1014
00:58:12,383 --> 00:58:16,783
They'll either accept or they just won't and I'll be left exactly, I'll be unharmed,
I'll

1015
00:58:16,783 --> 00:58:18,363
be exactly as it was before.

1016
00:58:18,363 --> 00:58:21,923
So that's the broad stroke of how it's different.

1017
00:58:21,923 --> 00:58:26,563
I don't think there's been that much controversy, but it's quite possible to use
BIP300 and

1018
00:58:26,563 --> 00:58:28,903
BIP301 independently.

1019
00:58:28,903 --> 00:58:34,123
So you could use the withdraw deposit part and have a completely different way of
finding

1020
00:58:34,123 --> 00:58:35,603
blocks if you want it.

1021
00:58:35,603 --> 00:58:39,723
But I kind of, I think they work pretty well as a pair.

1022
00:58:39,723 --> 00:58:46,683
The whole idea is make the miners really happy about having these L2s because the
L2s are

1023
00:58:46,803 --> 00:58:49,123
like a goose that lays the golden egg.

1024
00:58:49,123 --> 00:58:52,223
And so the Blind Merged Mining part, it just kind of keeps it very, very simple where
they

1025
00:58:52,223 --> 00:58:53,223
just get more money.

1026
00:58:53,223 --> 00:58:55,043
They don't really have to do anything.

1027
00:58:55,043 --> 00:58:59,483
So that's, I think, a little bit of synergy.

1028
00:58:59,483 --> 00:59:08,243
In terms of interoperability and let's say Litecoin adds Drivechains tomorrow, it's

1029
00:59:08,243 --> 00:59:12,323
going to be on Litecoin and despite the other merge mine chains to Litecoin, would
they

1030
00:59:12,323 --> 00:59:19,083
be affected at all by what Litecoin and the development and the community decided to
do?

1031
00:59:19,083 --> 00:59:20,083
What do you mean?

1032
00:59:20,083 --> 00:59:21,083
Who would be affected?

1033
00:59:21,083 --> 00:59:24,943
Meaning, we already have a vanilla merge mining scheme.

1034
00:59:24,943 --> 00:59:26,883
Other things piggybacking off of Litecoin.

1035
00:59:26,883 --> 00:59:28,883
If Litecoin adopts Drivechains-

1036
00:59:28,883 --> 00:59:29,883
No, yeah.

1037
00:59:29,883 --> 00:59:32,683
Doge would not be affected by that at all, I don't think.

1038
00:59:32,683 --> 00:59:37,483
I mean, of course there's the indirect effect of like, what is the final destination
of

1039
00:59:37,483 --> 00:59:38,943
this whole industry?

1040
00:59:38,943 --> 00:59:46,423
So in my view, the final destination is like one dominant coin, the small block L1
and

1041
00:59:46,423 --> 00:59:52,423
has all these different large block L2s of all shapes and sizes, huge amounts of
transaction

1042
00:59:52,423 --> 00:59:58,423
fees are being paid, is a dominant force on the internet.

1043
00:59:58,423 --> 01:00:03,963
So that's kind of what I guess would be the case is that the winning coin will
displace

1044
01:00:03,963 --> 01:00:06,343
the other coins.

1045
01:00:06,343 --> 01:00:17,543
And I've kind of always believed that, even from the early days, but the evidence
kind

1046
01:00:17,543 --> 01:00:22,863
of comes and goes because sometimes it looks, as I said at the beginning, now it
looks great

1047
01:00:22,863 --> 01:00:29,823
that there's more competitors because it looks like BTC will have accumulated all
these weird

1048
01:00:29,823 --> 01:00:31,903
errors for no reason.

1049
01:00:31,903 --> 01:00:36,703
And so it's kind of like, I don't know, but I just, I don't think, like there's not,
no

1050
01:00:36,703 --> 01:00:42,583
one is going to want to use the least popular proof of work coin.

1051
01:00:42,583 --> 01:00:43,583
And then that one will die.

1052
01:00:43,583 --> 01:00:46,503
And then there'll be another one that's the least popular and that one will die and
I'll

1053
01:00:46,503 --> 01:00:47,503
just die.

1054
01:00:47,503 --> 01:00:53,063
It'll be like a party where there's like this stigmatized, you know, instead of
being drawn,

1055
01:00:53,063 --> 01:00:56,863
you're being like drawn to like Times Square or something, you know, it's just, I
just

1056
01:00:56,863 --> 01:01:01,103
think it's, it's like gravity is my guess, but maybe I'd be totally wrong about
that.

1057
01:01:01,583 --> 01:01:03,863
I'm just trying to kind of envision how it works.

1058
01:01:03,863 --> 01:01:07,903
So we have already a merge mining scheme, granted Doge people don't have to care
about

1059
01:01:07,903 --> 01:01:11,703
Litecoin, Litecoiners don't have to care about Dogecoin, et cetera.

1060
01:01:11,703 --> 01:01:13,223
But you know, the miners do.

1061
01:01:13,223 --> 01:01:16,303
So like, let's say the miners get a windfall through Drivechains on Litecoin, but
they're

1062
01:01:16,303 --> 01:01:21,303
also going to get profit from, unless it's diminishing to zero because of what
Litecoin

1063
01:01:21,303 --> 01:01:24,423
just did, which could happen, possibly we'll talk about that.

1064
01:01:24,423 --> 01:01:29,943
But I'm just, the merge mining as is, plus Litecoin adding a Drivechain, drawing
more

1065
01:01:29,943 --> 01:01:33,223
energy to Litecoin itself because of the new functionality.

1066
01:01:33,223 --> 01:01:34,223
I'm just curious.

1067
01:01:34,223 --> 01:01:39,743
And I think there's limits to how many Drivechains you can add.

1068
01:01:39,743 --> 01:01:46,143
So like, what if we hit our limit and then all of the merge mine L1s at a
Drivechains

1069
01:01:46,143 --> 01:01:48,223
that you have, like, is that a scaling feature?

1070
01:01:48,223 --> 01:01:52,863
I think the limit is misunderstood scaling scale because the limit is just because
it

1071
01:01:52,863 --> 01:01:53,863
doesn't matter.

1072
01:01:53,863 --> 01:01:58,543
So you could have Drivechains of Drivechains and you can have L3, L4, whatever this
giant

1073
01:01:58,543 --> 01:01:59,543
tree.

1074
01:02:00,143 --> 01:02:02,143
The limit in BIP300 is 256.

1075
01:02:02,143 --> 01:02:05,703
You could lateralize that though, right?

1076
01:02:05,703 --> 01:02:11,023
Let's say Litecoin did 250, Dogecoin did 250, Bell's coin did 250.

1077
01:02:11,023 --> 01:02:13,983
It sounds absurd, but I'm just exploring it.

1078
01:02:13,983 --> 01:02:20,143
Another thing you can do is you can just modify, you can just have download the
BIP300 enforcer

1079
01:02:20,143 --> 01:02:21,143
and just change it.

1080
01:02:21,143 --> 01:02:26,543
Like one of the, like basically change the op code from like five to six or
something.

1081
01:02:26,783 --> 01:02:29,543
You just have Drivechain one and then you have Drivechain two.

1082
01:02:29,543 --> 01:02:31,503
So you have another 256.

1083
01:02:31,503 --> 01:02:35,663
So you can do vertically or horizontally as much as you like.

1084
01:02:35,663 --> 01:02:36,663
So there is no count.

1085
01:02:36,663 --> 01:02:38,943
I stopped at 256 because that's what one byte counts to.

1086
01:02:38,943 --> 01:02:42,863
And so in the computer it saves space and time and everything.

1087
01:02:42,863 --> 01:02:48,103
I also, I can't really think of, I'm trying to think of like, what would the 25th or
the

1088
01:02:48,103 --> 01:02:50,443
26th, and I can't think of one.

1089
01:02:50,443 --> 01:02:54,983
So I just think we're already overshooting it by an order of magnitude.

1090
01:02:54,983 --> 01:02:57,143
That's why I don't think there's really a limit.

1091
01:02:57,143 --> 01:03:03,063
So the limit is just to be parsimonious with the computer's resources, which is very
polite

1092
01:03:03,063 --> 01:03:04,063
thing to do.

1093
01:03:04,063 --> 01:03:09,463
So then we'll depart from vanilla merge mining discussions, although I appreciate
the elaborations

1094
01:03:09,463 --> 01:03:14,503
on these things, but we'll just talk about one chain in our context, Litecoin,
adding

1095
01:03:14,503 --> 01:03:15,503
Drivechains.

1096
01:03:15,503 --> 01:03:16,983
What does it do to Litecoin?

1097
01:03:16,983 --> 01:03:19,183
What new features do we get and how does it work?

1098
01:03:19,183 --> 01:03:20,783
What does it look like in terms of the promise?

1099
01:03:20,783 --> 01:03:23,743
How do we actually integrate it and things like that?

1100
01:03:23,743 --> 01:03:35,703
So would Litecoin L1 adding Drivechains have any consequence on, let's say, other

1101
01:03:35,703 --> 01:03:42,623
smart contract systems such as the Litecoin computer, or there's a newer one called
LitVM

1102
01:03:42,623 --> 01:03:44,943
now that we're learning about.

1103
01:03:44,943 --> 01:03:52,423
Would the L1 Litecoin having Drivechains affect interoperability, positive or
negatively,

1104
01:03:52,423 --> 01:03:54,183
or would it make no difference?

1105
01:03:54,183 --> 01:03:59,983
I cannot think of any way, because again, what happens under the hood is you have
like

1106
01:03:59,983 --> 01:04:06,103
an unused op-nop, like five or whatever, which is just like a code, and you just
send coins

1107
01:04:06,103 --> 01:04:07,423
to that.

1108
01:04:07,423 --> 01:04:13,023
And the BIP300 part is just, when can you spend coins out of that?

1109
01:04:13,023 --> 01:04:15,823
And that's this three to six month lock thing.

1110
01:04:15,823 --> 01:04:18,543
But this is its own...

1111
01:04:18,543 --> 01:04:19,543
You see what I mean?

1112
01:04:19,663 --> 01:04:22,583
They are like ships passing in the night.

1113
01:04:22,583 --> 01:04:26,103
They're different UTXOs passing in the night or whatever.

1114
01:04:26,103 --> 01:04:28,863
And so I can't think of a way.

1115
01:04:28,863 --> 01:04:31,303
Well, of course, it's always theoretically possible that something could...

1116
01:04:31,303 --> 01:04:38,463
I'm not super familiar with those things you mentioned, but really, from the
Fullnodes

1117
01:04:38,463 --> 01:04:46,583
point of view, it is putting money into a UTXO opcode and then unlocking it later
based

1118
01:04:46,583 --> 01:04:51,343
on Litecoin miners hacking this little hash.

1119
01:04:51,343 --> 01:04:54,343
But these are very small ingredients.

1120
01:04:54,343 --> 01:04:59,783
Most of the actual work, including determining what counts as a deposit and the
withdrawal

1121
01:04:59,783 --> 01:05:02,823
and which withdrawals are and sorting the withdrawals and putting the withdrawals in

1122
01:05:02,823 --> 01:05:05,823
a bundle and saying, this is the hash that you need to...

1123
01:05:05,823 --> 01:05:09,823
All that happens on the L2, which of course is the right way to do things, is to
push

1124
01:05:09,823 --> 01:05:15,743
more of the effort onto the people who want the new feature, they have to...

1125
01:05:15,903 --> 01:05:22,503
When I say effort, I mean like millionths of a second of computer time.

1126
01:05:22,503 --> 01:05:25,903
I just mean the code part is over there on the L2.

1127
01:05:25,903 --> 01:05:28,103
So I don't think so.

1128
01:05:28,103 --> 01:05:37,943
Of course, again, there's always the indirect effects of who's project is popular.

1129
01:05:37,943 --> 01:05:38,943
But I have no idea.

1130
01:05:38,943 --> 01:05:40,743
I don't know about those other projects.

1131
01:05:40,743 --> 01:05:43,583
I'm not as familiar with those, but I don't think...

1132
01:05:43,583 --> 01:05:44,583
It's very, very, very...

1133
01:05:44,583 --> 01:05:53,823
The weird thing about the BIP300 is it is opt-in, ignorable, and reversible.

1134
01:05:53,823 --> 01:05:57,343
And this is one of the arrangements that has happened in BTC where people won't do
any

1135
01:05:57,343 --> 01:06:04,503
soft forks now, even though the op-nop soft fork, in particular, and there are other
kinds

1136
01:06:04,503 --> 01:06:05,503
of soft fork.

1137
01:06:05,503 --> 01:06:08,863
SegWit was this really weird soft fork and you could soft fork to decrease the block

1138
01:06:08,863 --> 01:06:10,823
size if you wanted to do something like that.

1139
01:06:10,823 --> 01:06:12,143
These are really weird soft forks.

1140
01:06:12,703 --> 01:06:20,143
But Satoshi put in the op-nops, the unused op codes, and he intended for them to be
used

1141
01:06:20,143 --> 01:06:22,303
for script upgrade.

1142
01:06:22,303 --> 01:06:28,463
And we have already used them, like op-nop2 became check-lock-time-verify back in
2015.

1143
01:06:28,463 --> 01:06:34,703
And yet, for some reason, this is like a big political football over in BTC.

1144
01:06:34,703 --> 01:06:39,503
This is why I kind of get nervous about BTC because you just think we have, again,
it's

1145
01:06:39,503 --> 01:06:47,183
like merge mining where we've been given this super weapon, this cornucopia machine,

1146
01:06:47,183 --> 01:06:54,983
and it can give us infinite of what we want, and we can also ignore it or reverse
it.

1147
01:06:54,983 --> 01:06:55,983
And it's opt-in.

1148
01:06:55,983 --> 01:07:00,183
And you're just like, okay, why aren't we, you know, this should be paraded through
the

1149
01:07:00,183 --> 01:07:02,543
streets as like a miracle.

1150
01:07:02,543 --> 01:07:07,423
But instead, everyone is running in fear of it and people don't want to propose soft
fork.

1151
01:07:07,423 --> 01:07:11,583
So anyway, I bring that up just to say, these op-nop soft forks are very, very, very
well

1152
01:07:11,583 --> 01:07:12,823
behaved.

1153
01:07:12,823 --> 01:07:15,823
That's part of why they're so great.

1154
01:07:15,823 --> 01:07:23,383
And it's part of Bitcoin's mistake that they, we are turning away this, you know, I
don't

1155
01:07:23,383 --> 01:07:24,383
know how to describe it.

1156
01:07:24,383 --> 01:07:25,383
It's a godsend.

1157
01:07:25,383 --> 01:07:29,343
It's, you know, another goose that lays a golden egg thing.

1158
01:07:29,343 --> 01:07:37,263
And we are like just turning it away just because, because people complain, you
know,

1159
01:07:37,263 --> 01:07:39,263
on Twitter or whatever, we're letting the terrorists win.

1160
01:07:39,263 --> 01:07:45,463
It's a, it's a huge mistake and history will see it for how absurd it is.

1161
01:07:45,463 --> 01:07:46,463
I think.

1162
01:07:46,463 --> 01:07:48,543
Anyway, it kind of long answer there.

1163
01:07:48,543 --> 01:07:49,543
Sorry about that.

1164
01:07:49,543 --> 01:07:51,463
Hopefully that makes some sense.

1165
01:07:51,463 --> 01:07:52,463
It does.

1166
01:07:52,463 --> 01:07:53,463
I think, I think we're working on it.

1167
01:07:53,463 --> 01:07:58,823
It's, it's a lot to unpack here and I'm trying to track with you as well.

1168
01:07:58,823 --> 01:08:03,183
And I want to follow a lot of the things that you say too, like what do you see
happening

1169
01:08:03,183 --> 01:08:04,183
to Bitcoin?

1170
01:08:04,183 --> 01:08:08,583
Again, this isn't a Bitcoin podcast, but why is this happening?

1171
01:08:08,583 --> 01:08:10,103
It's of supreme relevance though.

1172
01:08:10,103 --> 01:08:16,343
Like of course, like if Bitcoin were perfect and unassailable, then it would be
wrong to

1173
01:08:16,343 --> 01:08:19,383
pay any attention to Litecoin.

1174
01:08:19,383 --> 01:08:27,143
But of course we, we haven't quite, you could look at it like 8 billion users is a
hundred

1175
01:08:27,383 --> 01:08:31,063
percent of the world and 200 trillion is like a hundred percent of the world's like
broad

1176
01:08:31,063 --> 01:08:32,063
money or something.

1177
01:08:32,063 --> 01:08:35,103
I've tried to estimate this, you know, just like back of the envelope, plenty of
people

1178
01:08:35,103 --> 01:08:37,263
have made such estimations.

1179
01:08:37,263 --> 01:08:42,703
So it's kind of like if we got to 50% then the, you would, you would have crossed
kind

1180
01:08:42,703 --> 01:08:46,183
of the finish line because network effects and stuff, you can't beat something if it

1181
01:08:46,183 --> 01:08:53,103
has 4.001 billion daily users, well then, you know, it's kind of, you got to hang up

1182
01:08:53,103 --> 01:08:54,103
the towel.

1183
01:08:54,103 --> 01:08:56,743
You got to say, this is just like a science experiment or something like this is not
going

1184
01:08:56,743 --> 01:08:57,743
to be.

1185
01:08:57,743 --> 01:09:03,063
It's like trying to say that you want Esperanto to take over English, you know, and
you say,

1186
01:09:03,063 --> 01:09:07,543
oh, everyone's going to really be, everyone's going to be speaking, you know,
Swahili or

1187
01:09:07,543 --> 01:09:08,543
something.

1188
01:09:08,543 --> 01:09:09,703
And it's kind of like, that's not going to happen.

1189
01:09:09,703 --> 01:09:12,063
Like people are speaking English, it's too late.

1190
01:09:12,063 --> 01:09:16,863
When they do the, when the people in France and Spain do a business deal, the
contracts

1191
01:09:16,863 --> 01:09:18,143
are in English.

1192
01:09:18,143 --> 01:09:20,983
In China, the people are, it's like, okay.

1193
01:09:20,983 --> 01:09:27,143
So just as an example, so do we have, does Bitcoin have 4 billion users?

1194
01:09:27,143 --> 01:09:28,143
No.

1195
01:09:28,143 --> 01:09:34,783
Would it be, does Bitcoin have a 100 trillion market cap, which would be like half,
making

1196
01:09:34,783 --> 01:09:35,783
it halfway?

1197
01:09:35,783 --> 01:09:36,783
No.

1198
01:09:36,783 --> 01:09:37,783
So it's still early days.

1199
01:09:37,783 --> 01:09:45,703
We're still, you know, Bitcoin has come so far, but we're still like 1% or 0.1% of,
of

1200
01:09:45,703 --> 01:09:47,503
the territory has been claimed.

1201
01:09:47,503 --> 01:09:52,143
You know, it's like a big football field or something, or some kind of battle
simulation.

1202
01:09:52,143 --> 01:09:55,183
And only like 1% has been claimed.

1203
01:09:55,183 --> 01:09:59,223
The rest is like 99% fiat.

1204
01:09:59,223 --> 01:10:04,603
So that's, you say it's not a Bitcoin pod, the only reason I bring that up is
because

1205
01:10:04,603 --> 01:10:09,343
to say, well, actually it's, it's early days and Bitcoin is, has this huge lead.

1206
01:10:09,343 --> 01:10:12,903
And I do worry that it has become totally complacent.

1207
01:10:12,903 --> 01:10:16,023
And it now has this belief that it is just indestructible.

1208
01:10:16,023 --> 01:10:17,343
That's what I was getting at.

1209
01:10:17,343 --> 01:10:24,103
And so it just thinks that it can't, it can't be destroyed at this, at this point.

1210
01:10:24,103 --> 01:10:28,783
And one of the things that I try to say, it's again, to knock some sense into
people, I

1211
01:10:28,783 --> 01:10:32,063
say, well, you know what, if Bitcoin is unstoppable, that would be great.

1212
01:10:32,063 --> 01:10:35,583
You know, I, you know, you won't hear me complaining.

1213
01:10:35,583 --> 01:10:37,023
That would be phenomenal.

1214
01:10:37,023 --> 01:10:41,183
You know, and if it does, then you don't have to worry about Drivechain or anything
else.

1215
01:10:41,183 --> 01:10:42,183
You don't have to worry about lightning.

1216
01:10:42,183 --> 01:10:44,023
You don't have to worry about whatever.

1217
01:10:45,023 --> 01:10:53,503
Hey, you know, where it's just a, it's just a straight shot from here to, from, to,
from

1218
01:10:53,503 --> 01:10:56,783
0.1% to 100% or 51 or whatever.

1219
01:10:56,783 --> 01:11:02,263
My point about the 51% is that if you get to 51, you really are going to get to a
hundred,

1220
01:11:02,263 --> 01:11:07,223
you know, it's like, you've reached the tipping point, it's like Rome destroying
Carthage

1221
01:11:07,223 --> 01:11:08,223
or something.

1222
01:11:08,223 --> 01:11:09,223
It's like, that's it.

1223
01:11:09,223 --> 01:11:10,223
It's over.

1224
01:11:10,223 --> 01:11:13,803
You know, it's not, it's not going your way anymore and it's, it's over.

1225
01:11:14,583 --> 01:11:16,603
So if you get to 51, you will get to a hundred, I think.

1226
01:11:16,603 --> 01:11:22,763
If something goes from being created in 2009 and then goes to 101 trillion, why,
it's not

1227
01:11:22,763 --> 01:11:23,763
going to stop it.

1228
01:11:23,763 --> 01:11:25,963
Like it's not going to get to like 105 trillion and then stop.

1229
01:11:25,963 --> 01:11:28,083
It's going to obliterate everything in its path.

1230
01:11:28,083 --> 01:11:31,523
So that'll be the end of that.

1231
01:11:31,523 --> 01:11:34,363
So that's why I bring that up, but it's, this is what people think.

1232
01:11:34,363 --> 01:11:38,083
They think we basically have already reached that point.

1233
01:11:38,083 --> 01:11:44,043
So even if we had reached the market cap, that could also be a mistake, right?

1234
01:11:44,043 --> 01:11:46,903
People could be under a misapprehension.

1235
01:11:46,903 --> 01:11:52,043
This has happened all throughout financial history and business history where the
bigger

1236
01:11:52,043 --> 01:11:54,403
they are, the harder they fall.

1237
01:11:54,403 --> 01:11:58,723
People would say, oh, how can, you know, how can, how can we compete with Kmart?

1238
01:11:58,723 --> 01:12:01,243
How can we compete with Sears?

1239
01:12:01,243 --> 01:12:03,803
How can we compete with Macy's?

1240
01:12:03,803 --> 01:12:06,723
And you know, now they say, how can we compete with Amazon?

1241
01:12:06,723 --> 01:12:07,723
Right.

1242
01:12:08,363 --> 01:12:09,363
Yeah.

1243
01:12:09,363 --> 01:12:10,363
Just wait.

1244
01:12:10,363 --> 01:12:11,363
So it's over and over again.

1245
01:12:11,363 --> 01:12:13,083
These things get obliterated.

1246
01:12:13,083 --> 01:12:17,923
People thought, who's going to, at one point I remember Milton Friedman made a joke
about

1247
01:12:17,923 --> 01:12:23,363
Kmart, people worried about Kmart buying Sears and then it was like, Sears would buy
Kmart.

1248
01:12:23,363 --> 01:12:26,643
It was like they had to flip the, I don't remember the exact wording of the joke,
but

1249
01:12:26,643 --> 01:12:33,323
anyway, I bring all that up just to say that Bitcoin has become complacent because
it's

1250
01:12:33,323 --> 01:12:36,043
in the lead, but it is not in the lead enough.

1251
01:12:36,043 --> 01:12:38,723
And I think enough complacency will destroy anything.

1252
01:12:38,723 --> 01:12:42,203
And you can look at the unsinkable Titanic, you can look at the fall of Rome and
they

1253
01:12:42,203 --> 01:12:47,383
say, they say, well, Rome, the Visigoths are at the gate and they say, well, Rome
stood

1254
01:12:47,383 --> 01:12:48,563
for a thousand years.

1255
01:12:48,563 --> 01:12:52,403
You can't, you know, you can't sack this city, right?

1256
01:12:52,403 --> 01:12:54,923
We have never been sacked.

1257
01:12:54,923 --> 01:12:58,963
And the Visigoths are like, you know, we don't, we don't care.

1258
01:12:58,963 --> 01:13:02,143
We're just going to, we're just going to kill everyone and take everything.

1259
01:13:02,143 --> 01:13:05,563
So it's because, it's because of the lead too.

1260
01:13:05,563 --> 01:13:10,683
That's the tragedy is it's because it had stood for a thousand years that everyone
just

1261
01:13:10,683 --> 01:13:13,523
assumed that it could not be, and then that led to it being sacked.

1262
01:13:13,523 --> 01:13:21,843
So that's, I certainly see this happening in Bitcoin where people, the culture of
truth

1263
01:13:21,843 --> 01:13:23,723
has declined.

1264
01:13:23,723 --> 01:13:26,843
People don't care as much about talking about the real ideas.

1265
01:13:26,843 --> 01:13:36,123
They don't care as much about, like if what they say is even real, like the primal
lightning,

1266
01:13:36,123 --> 01:13:39,723
primal to primal lightning, custodial lightning, and people don't even care about
the difference

1267
01:13:39,723 --> 01:13:43,563
between custodial lightning and real lightning, even though the difference is night
and day

1268
01:13:43,563 --> 01:13:48,243
between actually having Bitcoin and not having any Bitcoin at all.

1269
01:13:48,243 --> 01:13:50,883
So it's a pretty big difference.

1270
01:13:50,883 --> 01:13:56,603
And so I can go through, I have like, I'm actually planning on writing a post of
just

1271
01:13:56,643 --> 01:14:01,003
derangements in Bitcoin, like weird deranged things.

1272
01:14:01,003 --> 01:14:03,363
And it's a list is getting pretty long.

1273
01:14:03,363 --> 01:14:08,763
And unfortunately, I think they each take a little bit of time to unpack, but
they're just

1274
01:14:08,763 --> 01:14:10,323
our emphasis on the lightning network.

1275
01:14:10,323 --> 01:14:13,963
Some of them are, I haven't been like big, medium and large, but there's all kinds
of

1276
01:14:13,963 --> 01:14:18,683
bizarre derangements in Bitcoin.

1277
01:14:18,683 --> 01:14:24,043
The idea that Stratum V2 has anything to do with mining, the idea that BTC Pay
Server has

1278
01:14:24,043 --> 01:14:25,323
anything to do with BitPay.

1279
01:14:25,363 --> 01:14:28,683
There's just all these weird ideas that have floated around.

1280
01:14:28,683 --> 01:14:29,683
People don't care.

1281
01:14:29,683 --> 01:14:37,243
One, though, that I will emphasize is that I think to get, you have like a Ponzi
track

1282
01:14:37,243 --> 01:14:43,963
and then you have like a user track, you know, and the Ponzi track is like you shill
the

1283
01:14:43,963 --> 01:14:44,963
project.

1284
01:14:44,963 --> 01:14:50,883
You do like a Michael Saylor and you just shill the project and you just say.

1285
01:14:50,883 --> 01:14:55,203
This is the point you get your talking points really well rehearsed.

1286
01:14:55,203 --> 01:15:00,323
You shill the project and the goal is to sell it to someone else.

1287
01:15:00,323 --> 01:15:03,363
Neither of you are using the.

1288
01:15:03,575 --> 01:15:05,335
Neither of you are using the the neither of you are using the project.

1289
01:15:05,695 --> 01:15:09,055
Now, what I want to emphasize about this is the game theory of this.

1290
01:15:09,295 --> 01:15:13,575
I really studied real game theory, you know, like a, you know, a real university.

1291
01:15:14,695 --> 01:15:18,815
But people like to use it as a little but there's the game theory of this.

1292
01:15:18,815 --> 01:15:22,615
In the final stage, you will eventually run.

1293
01:15:22,775 --> 01:15:25,975
The market cap will hit the ceiling, the 200 trillion ceiling.

1294
01:15:26,695 --> 01:15:29,655
This is an uncomfortable fact that a lot of people would prefer to just not

1295
01:15:29,655 --> 01:15:32,975
acknowledge, they just think, oh, can't just go to infinity or whatever, you know,

1296
01:15:32,975 --> 01:15:36,015
and then one F because I have one billionth of one Bitcoin.

1297
01:15:36,015 --> 01:15:40,015
I can just buy, you know, the continent of North America or something.

1298
01:15:40,015 --> 01:15:41,775
So but it's actually no, that's not the case.

1299
01:15:41,855 --> 01:15:46,455
You can only have the extra special appreciation while the world is shifting

1300
01:15:46,455 --> 01:15:51,215
from a world that is zero percent, one percent Bitcoin to a world that is 100

1301
01:15:51,215 --> 01:15:56,335
percent. Once you hit 100 percent, then any appreciation, the money will be some

1302
01:15:56,335 --> 01:15:59,375
other weird thing that's happening that has nothing to do with why it's had

1303
01:15:59,455 --> 01:16:02,455
Bitcoin and crypto has had these 10,000 X return.

1304
01:16:02,655 --> 01:16:07,935
So at the end, you hit the ceiling and there's no one left to flip.

1305
01:16:08,335 --> 01:16:12,255
So this is where the Ponzi part, if it were only a Ponzi, it would certainly

1306
01:16:12,255 --> 01:16:17,735
collapse because you cannot it's now impossible to sell this.

1307
01:16:17,735 --> 01:16:20,815
It is an asset that can only go down or stay the same.

1308
01:16:20,935 --> 01:16:26,375
So you can know the talking points that got it to where it is will no longer work.

1309
01:16:26,535 --> 01:16:30,975
Now, if you this is the final stage, then what happens in the second to last stage

1310
01:16:31,255 --> 01:16:37,015
is, of course, that people looking to that would see, well, this this this logic

1311
01:16:37,015 --> 01:16:40,735
is about to collapse. And so maybe it'll collapse now, maybe it collapses all the

1312
01:16:40,735 --> 01:16:44,415
way through. But really, the second to last stage is important because the second

1313
01:16:44,415 --> 01:16:50,295
to last stage. Of adoption, this is when you would have to switch from saying,

1314
01:16:50,695 --> 01:16:54,975
OK, we're no longer a Ponzi, we're actually going to acquire eight billion

1315
01:16:54,975 --> 01:16:58,855
users. So I don't know, that was probably not making a lot of sense until I finally

1316
01:16:58,855 --> 01:17:04,415
got to this, my point, which is you can do Ponzi, Ponzi, Ponzi, Ponzi all the way to

1317
01:17:04,415 --> 01:17:05,735
the end and then diagonally.

1318
01:17:06,935 --> 01:17:12,895
To the users, and it will still work because it's kind of like you own shares in a

1319
01:17:12,895 --> 01:17:17,655
tech company, there's no users, but then finally you get the users and then everyone

1320
01:17:17,655 --> 01:17:18,815
can cash out their shares.

1321
01:17:19,415 --> 01:17:21,895
And now it's a stable world.

1322
01:17:22,815 --> 01:17:27,095
Where you have a billion users and the users are paying customers, it's like, you

1323
01:17:27,095 --> 01:17:30,615
know, they're paying for like a Netflix subscription or something.

1324
01:17:31,575 --> 01:17:34,255
So you can delay that.

1325
01:17:35,415 --> 01:17:41,295
All the way until the end, if you want it, that's that that is theoretically and

1326
01:17:41,295 --> 01:17:42,575
economically possible.

1327
01:17:43,455 --> 01:17:50,895
So the question is, is that what we're doing, you know, because it's sort of maybe
it

1328
01:17:50,895 --> 01:17:52,375
is, maybe it's not.

1329
01:17:52,975 --> 01:17:56,055
Of course, Saylor et al.

1330
01:17:56,055 --> 01:17:58,335
seem to de-emphasize the actual users.

1331
01:17:58,335 --> 01:18:02,495
And of course, Custodial Lightning is not that is not acquiring eight billion users.

1332
01:18:02,495 --> 01:18:05,255
That is just papering everything over.

1333
01:18:05,455 --> 01:18:09,535
The people are really using, you know, their Visa credit card or something to pay.

1334
01:18:09,535 --> 01:18:13,215
They're not actually using the the idea.

1335
01:18:13,655 --> 01:18:18,615
And to just wrap this finally up and say, well, my point, you know, sort of actually

1336
01:18:18,615 --> 01:18:23,695
is, is that at the end of the day, the eight billion user part is that is the life
or

1337
01:18:23,695 --> 01:18:29,215
death. You can you can delay it, but you have to pull it off at some point.

1338
01:18:29,455 --> 01:18:35,735
So but in Bitcoin, this is now seen as a, you know, like another thing to point out

1339
01:18:35,735 --> 01:18:38,295
about this is it's not only is it very difficult.

1340
01:18:40,135 --> 01:18:42,775
Not only is it so essential, but it's also very difficult.

1341
01:18:42,775 --> 01:18:48,975
It's very easy to just go on stage and give your little talk and have AI image
slides

1342
01:18:48,975 --> 01:18:52,375
or whatever and just have your, you know, your talking points.

1343
01:18:53,735 --> 01:18:59,815
You can see how it's like from very far away, it's very vague and it's very
abstract.

1344
01:18:59,815 --> 01:19:03,575
But then actually building software that works for eight billion people is really,

1345
01:19:03,575 --> 01:19:08,295
really hard. I compare it to like Theranos sometimes like the marketing team at

1346
01:19:08,295 --> 01:19:09,935
Theranos and they're all so happy.

1347
01:19:09,935 --> 01:19:14,615
And then the product people are working on this blood machine and it doesn't work
and

1348
01:19:14,615 --> 01:19:17,535
they're all miserable. And that one guy took his own life.

1349
01:19:17,535 --> 01:19:20,695
That one Stanford professor who worked there.

1350
01:19:21,335 --> 01:19:24,455
So you see, it's so tempting to just be the show.

1351
01:19:24,455 --> 01:19:27,255
But, you know, that's so I've rambled a little bit there.

1352
01:19:27,255 --> 01:19:30,735
But these are some of the I bring that derangement up in particular.

1353
01:19:30,735 --> 01:19:31,855
That's one of the big ones.

1354
01:19:32,695 --> 01:19:37,415
Is that so we don't have to get the eight billion users and it's true that we don't

1355
01:19:37,455 --> 01:19:42,615
have to get them right now, but we we are on the hook

1356
01:19:42,615 --> 01:19:46,855
for delivering that. If we don't, then it will completely fall apart, especially if

1357
01:19:46,855 --> 01:19:50,095
some other coin does it. So this is where the Litecoin, the Litecoin angle should
just

1358
01:19:50,095 --> 01:19:51,615
be like, oh, this is great.

1359
01:19:51,615 --> 01:19:56,295
Bitcoin is totally collapsing into the this complacency.

1360
01:19:56,895 --> 01:20:01,935
And this is the opportunity to to actually put in the hard

1361
01:20:01,935 --> 01:20:06,375
work, get the real users, do the difficult work of

1362
01:20:07,535 --> 01:20:12,375
like banging the software into the right shape for the product market fit.

1363
01:20:13,255 --> 01:20:17,455
And but yeah, it will be, of course, it will be very difficult to beat the network

1364
01:20:17,455 --> 01:20:19,535
effects of Bitcoin.

1365
01:20:19,535 --> 01:20:22,335
But these network effects are also what is making Bitcoin so complacent.

1366
01:20:22,615 --> 01:20:24,975
Yeah, I think it's a kind of a lethal arrogance.

1367
01:20:24,975 --> 01:20:28,055
And this is actually so I have some community questions at the end.

1368
01:20:28,775 --> 01:20:33,255
And this is sort of one of them is it's been pointed out about the mempool being

1369
01:20:34,135 --> 01:20:36,935
more empty than normal, mostly empty

1370
01:20:38,015 --> 01:20:41,495
in the setting of an all time high or essentially an all time high.

1371
01:20:41,695 --> 01:20:43,815
So what does this look like to you?

1372
01:20:43,815 --> 01:20:45,495
It's actually quite bizarre.

1373
01:20:45,495 --> 01:20:48,255
I think I don't think about it the way that most other people do.

1374
01:20:50,775 --> 01:20:53,495
But even so, I end up with the same conclusion of that.

1375
01:20:53,495 --> 01:20:58,335
It's really weird because I used to I wrote this long post security budget, too,

1376
01:20:58,335 --> 01:20:59,775
which is about merge mining.

1377
01:20:59,775 --> 01:21:02,815
I wrote a security budget in the long run, like back in 2019.

1378
01:21:02,815 --> 01:21:04,575
And then I wrote in 2021.

1379
01:21:04,575 --> 01:21:08,935
But one thing that I pointed out, people said, oh, fees will pay for security.

1380
01:21:08,935 --> 01:21:10,895
The fees keep going up and up and up.

1381
01:21:10,895 --> 01:21:13,215
One thing that I pointed out is that, first of all,

1382
01:21:13,935 --> 01:21:16,415
the fees went up for a misleading reason in the past,

1383
01:21:16,415 --> 01:21:18,575
which is how the software was coded.

1384
01:21:18,575 --> 01:21:22,495
So when the price of Bitcoin went from like one cent to ten cents

1385
01:21:23,095 --> 01:21:27,015
or one or ten cents to one dollar, it looks like the fees are going up

1386
01:21:27,575 --> 01:21:28,695
by a factor of 10.

1387
01:21:28,695 --> 01:21:30,855
But really, they're going up from like a microscopic amount

1388
01:21:30,855 --> 01:21:34,095
that no one would ever care about to different 10x.

1389
01:21:34,655 --> 01:21:36,095
But these are all beneath.

1390
01:21:36,095 --> 01:21:38,015
They're all like beneath ten cents.

1391
01:21:38,015 --> 01:21:39,335
The whole the total fee.

1392
01:21:39,335 --> 01:21:41,695
So I was like, none of that counts at all.

1393
01:21:41,695 --> 01:21:43,535
So that does not count as really going up.

1394
01:21:43,535 --> 01:21:44,495
This is an artifact.

1395
01:21:44,495 --> 01:21:46,215
But the second thing I pointed out was.

1396
01:21:48,015 --> 01:21:51,775
The fees go, the fees go up when you have these crazy bubbles

1397
01:21:51,775 --> 01:21:55,095
and everyone is everyone gets really, really, really into Bitcoin.

1398
01:21:55,935 --> 01:21:59,815
You know, and so the fees would go up from like nothing to like

1399
01:21:59,855 --> 01:22:02,135
twenty dollars per transaction.

1400
01:22:02,135 --> 01:22:05,655
And this is partly because these are euphoric moments

1401
01:22:05,655 --> 01:22:09,015
where Bitcoin is going up 10x or more.

1402
01:22:09,735 --> 01:22:11,775
There was time I remember when it went from, you know,

1403
01:22:11,775 --> 01:22:14,335
thirty two dollars to like two hundred fifty dollars and crashed.

1404
01:22:15,175 --> 01:22:20,335
And I remember when it went, you know, and what in the end of 2017,

1405
01:22:20,335 --> 01:22:22,495
it went to like nineteen thousand dollars in the car.

1406
01:22:22,735 --> 01:22:24,895
But it's going from like eight hundred dollars.

1407
01:22:25,015 --> 01:22:27,575
So it is going up.

1408
01:22:27,575 --> 01:22:29,575
Everyone's just thinking, oh, I'm going to be rich.

1409
01:22:29,575 --> 01:22:32,055
No one's caring about people are selling their coins

1410
01:22:32,535 --> 01:22:35,695
and they think I'm going to make a huge amount of money.

1411
01:22:35,695 --> 01:22:37,695
They don't care about the twenty dollar fee.

1412
01:22:37,695 --> 01:22:40,215
People buying the coins, they don't care.

1413
01:22:41,175 --> 01:22:43,655
So normally you would see this

1414
01:22:44,655 --> 01:22:48,455
this association of when the price goes way up, the fees

1415
01:22:49,295 --> 01:22:53,055
go way up and in an annoying way, because it it makes people think.

1416
01:22:54,255 --> 01:22:56,855
People that I've had some disagreements with and debates

1417
01:22:56,855 --> 01:22:59,495
that people can look up and listen to in the past.

1418
01:23:00,615 --> 01:23:03,215
Dan held and these other people are perfectly nice people, of course,

1419
01:23:03,215 --> 01:23:05,735
but they say something like

1420
01:23:05,735 --> 01:23:10,415
that they plot like a trend, the trend is like zero zero zero

1421
01:23:10,415 --> 01:23:15,495
punctuated by like four or five episodes where the price is skyrocketing.

1422
01:23:15,895 --> 01:23:18,575
And then, oh, the fees were five dollars for like a month here

1423
01:23:18,575 --> 01:23:20,095
or the fees were ten dollars.

1424
01:23:20,095 --> 01:23:21,695
Oh, the fees were like.

1425
01:23:21,695 --> 01:23:24,415
And these are all again, this is exactly the kind of thing

1426
01:23:24,415 --> 01:23:27,895
that cannot happen once you hit 200 trillion.

1427
01:23:28,295 --> 01:23:29,535
This will never happen again.

1428
01:23:29,535 --> 01:23:34,255
We'll never have the euphoric, you know, speculator fee bump.

1429
01:23:34,855 --> 01:23:37,095
And that is completely temporary.

1430
01:23:37,095 --> 01:23:39,815
And I had the Sisyphus guy rolling the boulder.

1431
01:23:39,815 --> 01:23:42,615
I was like, OK, the fees go up, but they they don't.

1432
01:23:42,775 --> 01:23:43,375
These aren't real.

1433
01:23:43,375 --> 01:23:47,055
These are not people like using the network to like buy food.

1434
01:23:47,055 --> 01:23:48,655
This is a completely different type of thing.

1435
01:23:48,655 --> 01:23:51,015
So now not even that is happening.

1436
01:23:51,535 --> 01:23:52,775
So that's why it's weird to me.

1437
01:23:52,775 --> 01:23:55,295
Other people will just point out that, hey, no one's using Bitcoin.

1438
01:23:56,015 --> 01:23:57,975
We've lost our way because we don't care about users.

1439
01:23:57,975 --> 01:23:59,015
All that's perfectly true.

1440
01:24:00,135 --> 01:24:03,175
It's hard to say, like, because even still.

1441
01:24:04,175 --> 01:24:06,615
2000, you can think about like whatever,

1442
01:24:06,735 --> 01:24:10,495
two thousand twenty five hundred transactions per block.

1443
01:24:11,815 --> 01:24:16,255
For 10 minutes, and that's actually kind of a lot, you know, really.

1444
01:24:17,335 --> 01:24:20,375
So. You still have a lot of you.

1445
01:24:21,015 --> 01:24:24,575
It's hard for me to really say like how where are the usage numbers,

1446
01:24:24,575 --> 01:24:27,335
but you can look at other people like you can look at bit refill

1447
01:24:27,575 --> 01:24:29,375
or you can look at like a pork fest.

1448
01:24:29,375 --> 01:24:33,375
They just had something where they said who has cash was the number one.

1449
01:24:33,615 --> 01:24:35,295
It's like 60 percent.

1450
01:24:35,295 --> 01:24:37,495
So they they published that.

1451
01:24:37,495 --> 01:24:40,295
And then you can see, oh, where's where does Bitcoin rank?

1452
01:24:43,655 --> 01:24:45,535
You know, year after year, and it's like the bit

1453
01:24:45,535 --> 01:24:48,855
refill data is very reliable, I think.

1454
01:24:50,535 --> 01:24:52,735
What about the pay data?

1455
01:24:52,735 --> 01:24:53,655
I think it pays.

1456
01:24:53,655 --> 01:24:56,055
Well, yeah, it pays another one of the derangements.

1457
01:24:56,055 --> 01:24:59,935
So like we had this great thing where you can do it and rebrand it yet to let pay.

1458
01:24:59,975 --> 01:25:01,495
I'm wondering why it's been 18.

1459
01:25:01,495 --> 01:25:04,055
My. Yeah, that's a good point.

1460
01:25:05,295 --> 01:25:08,375
Bit pay, I thought, was the the most important

1461
01:25:08,375 --> 01:25:11,055
when I first like was getting into Bitcoin.

1462
01:25:11,815 --> 01:25:14,975
And my friend and I, we went to New York City and went to the Javits Center

1463
01:25:14,975 --> 01:25:17,455
and they had the bit and I like I shook.

1464
01:25:18,535 --> 01:25:21,695
Mr. Galipi's hand, Tony Galipi's hand,

1465
01:25:21,695 --> 01:25:24,055
and I was like, this is the most important company in Bitcoin.

1466
01:25:25,095 --> 01:25:27,935
So I was either very naive or or something.

1467
01:25:28,415 --> 01:25:30,135
But I just couldn't believe that.

1468
01:25:30,135 --> 01:25:32,175
I was like, they they cracked the code completely.

1469
01:25:32,175 --> 01:25:36,495
You know, you can go into your favorite store, your restaurant.

1470
01:25:38,575 --> 01:25:41,215
Then you can say, oh, you know,

1471
01:25:41,495 --> 01:25:44,255
you should accept Bitcoin now, nor pre bit pay.

1472
01:25:45,175 --> 01:25:49,135
This was so psychologically traumatizing, so stigmatizing.

1473
01:25:49,415 --> 01:25:53,455
It has to be basically like I would never do it.

1474
01:25:53,575 --> 01:25:55,015
I my friend tried to do it.

1475
01:25:55,015 --> 01:25:58,855
But of course, this is the most awkward conversation

1476
01:25:58,855 --> 01:26:00,255
you'll have in your entire life.

1477
01:26:00,255 --> 01:26:02,015
I don't know if anybody bothers anymore.

1478
01:26:02,015 --> 01:26:04,295
It's kind of sad. Yes, we tried.

1479
01:26:04,295 --> 01:26:07,175
Yeah. But with bit pay, it's smooth.

1480
01:26:07,175 --> 01:26:10,455
The whole thing over like ninety nine point nine percent

1481
01:26:10,455 --> 01:26:13,735
because you could go to the merchant and say, oh, you should say Bitcoin.

1482
01:26:13,855 --> 01:26:15,255
I know it sounds pretty weird.

1483
01:26:15,255 --> 01:26:18,935
But you go to this website, BitPay, and they will give you cash,

1484
01:26:18,935 --> 01:26:21,455
US dollar cash the next day.

1485
01:26:21,455 --> 01:26:22,575
And they're doing a promo.

1486
01:26:22,575 --> 01:26:23,615
I was to say, I don't know.

1487
01:26:23,615 --> 01:26:25,375
They did this promo many times.

1488
01:26:25,375 --> 01:26:27,815
I just told everyone that they were doing this promo.

1489
01:26:27,815 --> 01:26:29,895
I don't I don't know why they still are sort of a stop.

1490
01:26:29,895 --> 01:26:32,895
But the promo is something like first million dollars of transaction fee

1491
01:26:33,255 --> 01:26:34,895
processing is free.

1492
01:26:34,895 --> 01:26:37,415
And you get cash the next day and they do customer service

1493
01:26:37,415 --> 01:26:39,615
and they have all the software you need.

1494
01:26:39,855 --> 01:26:41,895
You don't pay any fee, none, zero.

1495
01:26:42,055 --> 01:26:43,535
People couldn't believe this.

1496
01:26:43,535 --> 01:26:45,175
Oh, I get cash the next day.

1497
01:26:45,175 --> 01:26:49,055
And so this was like the the thing to.

1498
01:26:50,535 --> 01:26:52,535
To Orangeville people.

1499
01:26:52,535 --> 01:26:55,095
And I was like, this is what you know, this is amazing.

1500
01:26:55,095 --> 01:26:57,055
And now how who could say no to that?

1501
01:26:57,055 --> 01:26:59,815
You know, like, of course, the

1502
01:26:59,815 --> 01:27:01,855
you have to invest a little bit of time.

1503
01:27:01,855 --> 01:27:04,895
But if you have crazy Bitcoiners who are in your area

1504
01:27:04,895 --> 01:27:07,095
and you just put out the little bit pay sticker.

1505
01:27:07,095 --> 01:27:10,375
And so I just thought, yeah, I thought BitPay was just like.

1506
01:27:11,335 --> 01:27:16,255
Part of the like the victory coalition,

1507
01:27:16,255 --> 01:27:18,855
and I just thought this is.

1508
01:27:18,855 --> 01:27:20,815
Like just going to dominate everything.

1509
01:27:20,815 --> 01:27:24,655
Of course, there is many historical and other details

1510
01:27:25,095 --> 01:27:27,335
kind of interfered with that.

1511
01:27:27,535 --> 01:27:30,655
But yeah, BitPay.

1512
01:27:31,215 --> 01:27:35,335
BitPay was like, again, this is like it's much more rational,

1513
01:27:35,335 --> 01:27:38,575
it's like a it's like a scientist who cares about empirical tests

1514
01:27:38,815 --> 01:27:42,015
versus one who's just kind of ivory tower theorizing.

1515
01:27:43,015 --> 01:27:44,975
The one who cares about empirical tests,

1516
01:27:44,975 --> 01:27:47,215
that kind of keeps you a little more honest, you know.

1517
01:27:47,575 --> 01:27:51,295
So when you have BitPay and you have real customers, you have real users,

1518
01:27:52,215 --> 01:27:56,295
you have real people who call customer support, complain when something breaks.

1519
01:27:57,815 --> 01:27:59,215
This just keeps everyone more honest.

1520
01:27:59,215 --> 01:28:00,735
This is all just very more reliable.

1521
01:28:00,735 --> 01:28:02,455
This is like. So, yeah.

1522
01:28:02,455 --> 01:28:05,975
So if you're about to tell me that BitPay is more skyrocketing,

1523
01:28:06,575 --> 01:28:09,015
I check in from time to time.

1524
01:28:09,015 --> 01:28:12,015
And I know that Litecoin is very popular on like BitRefill and stuff.

1525
01:28:12,415 --> 01:28:13,935
So I check in from time to time.

1526
01:28:13,935 --> 01:28:15,815
But yeah, that would be a very, very good sign.

1527
01:28:15,815 --> 01:28:19,375
If Litecoin payments on BitPay are geometrically increasing,

1528
01:28:19,775 --> 01:28:24,055
that would be especially if they are, you know, eclipsing BTC.

1529
01:28:24,495 --> 01:28:26,575
This would be a good sign.

1530
01:28:26,575 --> 01:28:30,015
Yeah, the last 18 plus months, it's been number one.

1531
01:28:30,015 --> 01:28:33,575
And it narrowed the last month.

1532
01:28:34,575 --> 01:28:39,175
Pretty much neck and neck, but that was about the only time it it broke the trend.

1533
01:28:39,575 --> 01:28:41,375
So it's impressive. Yeah.

1534
01:28:41,375 --> 01:28:44,255
It's another interesting thing about BitPay is that it can be.

1535
01:28:44,975 --> 01:28:47,815
People used to use this phrase and it was a stupid phrase, but like

1536
01:28:48,535 --> 01:28:52,135
blockchain agnostic or whatever, it can just take anything in

1537
01:28:52,135 --> 01:28:54,295
and pay them out with cash.

1538
01:28:54,295 --> 01:28:58,415
So now the merchant, whatever the merchant, can just accept whatever they want.

1539
01:28:58,415 --> 01:29:02,095
You know, Cardano or something, you know, it's like it makes no difference.

1540
01:29:02,255 --> 01:29:04,655
So that.

1541
01:29:05,775 --> 01:29:08,095
That is also that's good for everyone.

1542
01:29:08,615 --> 01:29:10,935
In particular, though, that is good, that is even better

1543
01:29:10,935 --> 01:29:13,455
for whichever coin is the number one coin,

1544
01:29:14,695 --> 01:29:17,535
because now they're all equal on some other thing.

1545
01:29:17,535 --> 01:29:23,095
And so then it just magnifies the relevance of whatever they're not equal on.

1546
01:29:23,895 --> 01:29:27,255
But yeah, I mean, it's going to be users at the end of the day will be,

1547
01:29:28,015 --> 01:29:30,255
you know, how it shakes out, I think.

1548
01:29:30,535 --> 01:29:32,775
Yep. Back to Drivechains.

1549
01:29:32,935 --> 01:29:35,975
Eighty four million is the total supply of Litecoin.

1550
01:29:35,975 --> 01:29:40,495
If Drivechains are added to Litecoin, how explain to all of us

1551
01:29:40,495 --> 01:29:42,655
how that will not be in jeopardy?

1552
01:29:43,215 --> 01:29:45,095
There will be no inflation introduced.

1553
01:29:45,095 --> 01:29:49,535
If you if you think about it, there's already the Litecoin node

1554
01:29:49,535 --> 01:29:53,495
already will reject the transaction that just counterfeits Litecoin.

1555
01:29:55,175 --> 01:29:58,775
So in Drivechain, you just on L1, you send some of the Litecoin

1556
01:29:58,775 --> 01:30:01,655
that already exists to the OP_NOP5 script.

1557
01:30:01,975 --> 01:30:05,735
And then sometimes the script unlocks and sends it back

1558
01:30:05,735 --> 01:30:08,055
to pay the script hash or something else.

1559
01:30:08,415 --> 01:30:11,415
So even though on the L2,

1560
01:30:12,375 --> 01:30:14,535
there is a second blockchain

1561
01:30:15,215 --> 01:30:20,455
and that blockchain is programmed to watch for the deposits on L1.

1562
01:30:20,895 --> 01:30:24,255
Again, where the depositor just is locked in the script on L1.

1563
01:30:24,975 --> 01:30:26,495
There's no sense in which it is.

1564
01:30:26,495 --> 01:30:29,215
The coins physically leave L1 and go to L2.

1565
01:30:30,215 --> 01:30:33,095
That's kind of like not possible or whatever.

1566
01:30:34,295 --> 01:30:37,655
But that's in the abstract sense, that's what happens.

1567
01:30:37,655 --> 01:30:38,375
I mean, think about it.

1568
01:30:38,375 --> 01:30:42,935
Like what if I told you like you go to an ATM and you withdraw a $20 bill?

1569
01:30:44,615 --> 01:30:47,655
Like there's no sense in which like a $20

1570
01:30:48,255 --> 01:30:51,735
object has like transferred like from your checking account

1571
01:30:52,015 --> 01:30:54,695
into the real world, you know what I mean?

1572
01:30:55,335 --> 01:30:56,735
That's like not really what happened.

1573
01:30:56,735 --> 01:31:00,855
But what did happen is $20 was sealed in the vault of the ATM.

1574
01:31:01,575 --> 01:31:03,695
And now it's out there for you to use.

1575
01:31:04,375 --> 01:31:08,455
And you had a number in your checking account, you subtract 20.

1576
01:31:09,495 --> 01:31:13,055
So, you know, the coins, the coins are not physical objects.

1577
01:31:13,055 --> 01:31:15,495
They don't really leave L1 and go to L2.

1578
01:31:15,495 --> 01:31:17,935
But that is what happens anyway.

1579
01:31:17,935 --> 01:31:20,895
That is actually the explanation, the true explanation of what is that.

1580
01:31:21,135 --> 01:31:26,495
But so but on L1, the coins go into the script and then they come back out.

1581
01:31:26,495 --> 01:31:28,175
The L1 doesn't see what happens on the L2.

1582
01:31:28,175 --> 01:31:31,935
You could it's theoretically possible to program L2 in a really terrible way.

1583
01:31:31,935 --> 01:31:34,255
And it like has inflation over there.

1584
01:31:34,255 --> 01:31:37,815
And then what would happen is that that L2 people would withdraw from it

1585
01:31:37,815 --> 01:31:40,775
and they would because only only the first few people will get their money.

1586
01:31:40,775 --> 01:31:41,135
You know what I mean?

1587
01:31:41,135 --> 01:31:46,295
Like if you have a counterfeit $20 bills, but there's only in the checking account.

1588
01:31:46,535 --> 01:31:48,175
This I don't know if this analogy makes any sense,

1589
01:31:48,175 --> 01:31:50,935
but there's only the checking account world only has $80 left.

1590
01:31:50,935 --> 01:31:54,935
And so everyone's going to run quickly to try and get and everyone else will get
them.

1591
01:31:55,175 --> 01:31:57,975
So that won't happen in practice.

1592
01:31:58,415 --> 01:32:03,615
But the L2, you know, the coins move from the L1 to the L2.

1593
01:32:03,615 --> 01:32:07,215
So especially if you are if you're going to be someone who never uses any of these
L2s,

1594
01:32:07,215 --> 01:32:11,255
which is the situation you're in right now, when they don't exist, the Drivechain
L2s.

1595
01:32:11,535 --> 01:32:15,535
Right. And certainly you don't have to worry at all about any inflation.

1596
01:32:15,815 --> 01:32:18,735
I think really the risk is way, way worse

1597
01:32:19,095 --> 01:32:23,215
that you have like these custodial L2s or these like federated L2s

1598
01:32:23,495 --> 01:32:28,255
where it's a complete black box and you don't really know like what they,

1599
01:32:28,255 --> 01:32:32,415
you know, like the having people do custodial lightning primal like that is

1600
01:32:32,415 --> 01:32:36,495
this is almost like the worst because the money just goes to this organization

1601
01:32:37,295 --> 01:32:40,335
and they just say that they're going to give you

1602
01:32:40,335 --> 01:32:43,855
Bitcoin back, whereas the Drivechain L2, everything's open source, everything's

1603
01:32:43,855 --> 01:32:48,535
mine, everything is on its own peer to peer network that everyone can see at all
times.

1604
01:32:48,535 --> 01:32:51,295
And of course, if anything, if there's any inflation,

1605
01:32:51,295 --> 01:32:53,575
it will automatically destroy that network.

1606
01:32:53,575 --> 01:32:56,895
And then the people, the developers who created that software,

1607
01:32:56,895 --> 01:33:01,375
their reputation will suffer and the people will just,

1608
01:33:01,575 --> 01:33:05,055
you know, fix that bug and release a new version later.

1609
01:33:05,295 --> 01:33:09,455
It may harm people who have ventured onto that L2.

1610
01:33:09,895 --> 01:33:11,695
No one should be using any of this.

1611
01:33:11,695 --> 01:33:14,495
You should never put your life savings onto this cell, too.

1612
01:33:14,495 --> 01:33:17,815
And it could be the perfect idea and anything could have a bug.

1613
01:33:18,815 --> 01:33:21,335
And so all that is very important to keep in mind.

1614
01:33:21,335 --> 01:33:23,055
But yeah, I really, really wouldn't worry about that.

1615
01:33:23,055 --> 01:33:27,455
The L1 node, the Litecoin node will already reject anything that

1616
01:33:28,535 --> 01:33:30,655
creates more than 84 million.

1617
01:33:30,935 --> 01:33:33,855
I assume the code is the same as Bitcoin, but Bitcoin has many checks.

1618
01:33:35,095 --> 01:33:37,215
Like check out the script is right.

1619
01:33:37,815 --> 01:33:40,415
Check that transaction fee adds up, whatever.

1620
01:33:40,655 --> 01:33:45,095
One of the checks is that no, no UTXO can ever

1621
01:33:45,895 --> 01:33:48,815
have or transfer more than 21 million coins.

1622
01:33:51,175 --> 01:33:53,175
If everything else in the blockchain is working perfectly,

1623
01:33:53,175 --> 01:33:55,175
that will that could never possibly be triggered.

1624
01:33:55,415 --> 01:33:57,455
Of course, there was one bug one time when it was free.

1625
01:33:57,615 --> 01:34:00,775
But yeah, I mean, yeah, I just I think really think that no one should worry

1626
01:34:00,775 --> 01:34:02,855
about that among the list of things to worry about.

1627
01:34:02,855 --> 01:34:03,895
That would be near the bottom.

1628
01:34:03,895 --> 01:34:05,455
What you really want to worry about is

1629
01:34:05,975 --> 01:34:13,015
will Litecoin grow enough to be viable in a world

1630
01:34:13,015 --> 01:34:16,335
where you have all this open source competition and,

1631
01:34:16,895 --> 01:34:21,175
you know, this is a network effect winner take all situation.

1632
01:34:21,775 --> 01:34:25,895
So you got to worry about that with like 80 percent of your worrying

1633
01:34:25,895 --> 01:34:29,255
should go to that and it really will not.

1634
01:34:29,255 --> 01:34:32,215
But again, all the soft forks are often reversible and ignore.

1635
01:34:32,255 --> 01:34:35,015
This is just part of the soft fork is magic thing.

1636
01:34:35,015 --> 01:34:39,375
It doesn't touch any other part of the protocol and it's you can just ignore it.

1637
01:34:39,375 --> 01:34:43,255
So this is just part of fear of the soft fork is really misplaced.

1638
01:34:43,375 --> 01:34:45,735
The soft fork is very, very, very safe.

1639
01:34:45,735 --> 01:34:48,415
I know that it's complicated and people

1640
01:34:48,415 --> 01:34:51,415
it makes people nervous, the idea of maybe changing the protocol.

1641
01:34:51,775 --> 01:34:54,415
The soft the soft fork doesn't change the protocol, though.

1642
01:34:54,415 --> 01:34:57,215
It actually leaves the old protocol exactly where it is permanently.

1643
01:34:57,335 --> 01:35:00,775
So it's it's it does do something new.

1644
01:35:01,375 --> 01:35:04,815
But actually, the word change is not quite the best word.

1645
01:35:04,815 --> 01:35:08,495
It is new, but it is actually leaves the old thing exactly as it was.

1646
01:35:08,495 --> 01:35:10,415
So anyway, that's kind of a rambling answer.

1647
01:35:10,415 --> 01:35:11,855
But I really wouldn't worry about that at all.

1648
01:35:11,855 --> 01:35:13,455
Yeah, we do consider it.

1649
01:35:13,455 --> 01:35:16,535
And I mean, I know even when we activated

1650
01:35:16,535 --> 01:35:20,095
the Mimble extension blocks for optional confidential transactions,

1651
01:35:20,695 --> 01:35:23,295
they that was into consideration with this

1652
01:35:23,855 --> 01:35:26,815
somehow introduced inflation, pegging into pegging out.

1653
01:35:26,855 --> 01:35:27,775
Do you think this is good?

1654
01:35:27,775 --> 01:35:29,335
I mean, it's not. It's not.

1655
01:35:29,335 --> 01:35:33,135
But we want to keep the principles you want users to be

1656
01:35:33,535 --> 01:35:37,095
to care about, to understand and care about the issues.

1657
01:35:37,135 --> 01:35:41,615
So I'm kind of two minds about it, because I think that this is the end game.

1658
01:35:41,615 --> 01:35:44,455
You have to have users who run a node and who actually understand

1659
01:35:44,455 --> 01:35:48,415
what what what the node sort of is doing and why

1660
01:35:49,135 --> 01:35:52,495
why things are the way they are and why the supply is fixed.

1661
01:35:52,495 --> 01:35:56,415
And so that is absolutely the case.

1662
01:35:57,415 --> 01:36:00,415
The other side of it would be.

1663
01:36:01,415 --> 01:36:03,415
How is the user?

1664
01:36:03,415 --> 01:36:05,735
How how much expertise does the user have?

1665
01:36:06,175 --> 01:36:09,095
Because this is a very they're not going to be listening to the extremely,

1666
01:36:09,095 --> 01:36:11,015
extremely easy question.

1667
01:36:11,015 --> 01:36:13,135
Yeah. Like about to answer it like this.

1668
01:36:13,175 --> 01:36:15,975
There's many questions of various levels of difficulty.

1669
01:36:15,975 --> 01:36:20,695
And like, obviously, I would know back in 2015

1670
01:36:21,175 --> 01:36:24,375
when I sat down to design it, that it would be a complete nonstarter

1671
01:36:24,615 --> 01:36:28,855
if it ever interfered with the fixed supply of Bitcoin in any possible way.

1672
01:36:29,335 --> 01:36:31,615
And so it is good.

1673
01:36:31,615 --> 01:36:34,455
But this is like a very, very, very, very easy question.

1674
01:36:34,655 --> 01:36:37,055
And I'm not trying to get around it or whatever.

1675
01:36:37,055 --> 01:36:40,695
I'm just saying that actually this is part of the derangement of Bitcoin

1676
01:36:41,735 --> 01:36:45,295
of like the overall just paranoia with the soft forks.

1677
01:36:45,295 --> 01:36:49,735
So I wouldn't I would hate to see it happening everywhere.

1678
01:36:49,735 --> 01:36:55,655
And maybe I would just push back on it just a tiny bit like the

1679
01:36:56,295 --> 01:37:00,655
I'm trying really trying to help because I see this in Bitcoin, you know, whereas

1680
01:37:01,375 --> 01:37:05,015
we we used to do soft fork on average,

1681
01:37:05,895 --> 01:37:08,215
on average, to a year.

1682
01:37:09,895 --> 01:37:14,015
But now it's been it's been four years

1683
01:37:14,015 --> 01:37:18,095
since November 2021 and then 2017. So.

1684
01:37:19,775 --> 01:37:21,695
We don't do them anymore, and the soft fork is great.

1685
01:37:22,135 --> 01:37:25,215
Instead, I think I wish people would study the soft fork.

1686
01:37:25,775 --> 01:37:30,055
And if they read my CUSF paper, if you have BIP300CUSF.com, read the

1687
01:37:31,055 --> 01:37:32,935
the paper, I have a digression.

1688
01:37:32,935 --> 01:37:35,175
I have a it's not that long.

1689
01:37:35,175 --> 01:37:37,375
And I describe the soft fork.

1690
01:37:37,375 --> 01:37:40,215
And yeah, because what we need is people who

1691
01:37:41,095 --> 01:37:44,935
it's good to care about keeping the limit where it is.

1692
01:37:44,935 --> 01:37:48,815
But more even more expertise is needed than that.

1693
01:37:48,815 --> 01:37:51,255
We need to get everyone leveled up like way up.

1694
01:37:51,255 --> 01:37:53,975
We need people to be thinking, OK, obviously, the soft fork

1695
01:37:54,415 --> 01:37:58,535
will not affect the coin limit because the soft fork doesn't affect

1696
01:37:58,535 --> 01:38:03,815
any part of the protocol other than the OPNAP five, which was preordained

1697
01:38:03,815 --> 01:38:08,015
as something that will always pass in the script interpreter

1698
01:38:08,215 --> 01:38:10,335
so that it could actually be used for a new.

1699
01:38:10,495 --> 01:38:13,855
So we need to like level people up just a little bit more.

1700
01:38:13,855 --> 01:38:18,175
Like, I wish people cared more about why the soft fork is so cool.

1701
01:38:18,175 --> 01:38:20,375
And soft fork versus hard fork and et cetera.

1702
01:38:21,295 --> 01:38:23,135
It's a BIP nine was the soft fork.

1703
01:38:23,975 --> 01:38:29,055
BIP nine refers to a way of signaling the timing of the soft fork activation.

1704
01:38:29,535 --> 01:38:34,775
OK, so that was the historically associated with the soft fork timing.

1705
01:38:35,615 --> 01:38:37,295
And I thought there was nothing wrong with it at all.

1706
01:38:37,295 --> 01:38:41,215
But what happened was it was used in SegWit and SegWit was this huge disaster.

1707
01:38:41,575 --> 01:38:44,935
Politically, this led to reform this.

1708
01:38:44,935 --> 01:38:48,535
They reformed a part of it that wasn't really that.

1709
01:38:49,495 --> 01:38:52,015
Important, but cosmetically, it looked

1710
01:38:52,175 --> 01:38:54,455
it looked like the miner signaling part was what.

1711
01:38:55,615 --> 01:38:58,015
Was wrong, but that's not.

1712
01:38:58,015 --> 01:39:00,295
So they they have a.

1713
01:39:00,295 --> 01:39:03,575
Bip aid and speedy trial, these things came later.

1714
01:39:04,255 --> 01:39:06,695
But we can tell what we do now is we have total paralysis.

1715
01:39:06,695 --> 01:39:07,495
We don't do anything.

1716
01:39:07,495 --> 01:39:08,655
So, yeah, and we can.

1717
01:39:08,655 --> 01:39:12,935
So when you introduce Drivechain, you didn't have the CUSF, correct?

1718
01:39:13,455 --> 01:39:14,215
That's right.

1719
01:39:14,215 --> 01:39:17,095
That's been something you've accommodated due to this.

1720
01:39:17,095 --> 01:39:19,415
Oh, it's undue, undue fear.

1721
01:39:19,655 --> 01:39:21,935
And that's the Core Untouched Soft Fork, correct?

1722
01:39:21,935 --> 01:39:22,735
That's right.

1723
01:39:22,735 --> 01:39:24,375
So maybe we can talk about that.

1724
01:39:24,375 --> 01:39:27,175
And I do appreciate you touching

1725
01:39:27,175 --> 01:39:30,055
the limit and how these softwares really don't threaten them at all.

1726
01:39:30,775 --> 01:39:33,015
But yeah, let's talk about why you introduced

1727
01:39:33,255 --> 01:39:35,535
the concept of Core Untouched Soft Fork.

1728
01:39:37,295 --> 01:39:40,335
Yeah, it is weird.

1729
01:39:40,575 --> 01:39:44,015
Back in 2015, I thought I'll just put out this blog post

1730
01:39:44,495 --> 01:39:47,655
and everyone was working and nobody's relatively low effort

1731
01:39:47,655 --> 01:39:50,855
and everyone will just love the idea and then they will just

1732
01:39:50,855 --> 01:39:52,655
they will just make it into a release to Bitcoin.

1733
01:39:54,895 --> 01:39:57,695
And then as time went on,

1734
01:39:58,175 --> 01:40:02,415
I became more concerned that, you know, lightning is not working.

1735
01:40:02,415 --> 01:40:03,375
And so I put a little bit more.

1736
01:40:03,375 --> 01:40:06,855
I was I had like a tinker, like my own version of the software

1737
01:40:06,855 --> 01:40:08,095
was kind of tinkering with.

1738
01:40:08,692 --> 01:40:18,692
Just kind of learn more about Drivechain myself by actually creating it and kind of
seeing like, you know, making sure what what actually happens and how does
everything work in detail with the actual code?

1739
01:40:18,692 --> 01:40:32,692
And as I mentioned before, most of the work is done in the L2s. So doing the L1 part
was not that much work, but you have to make an L2 and then, you know, it's kind of
like, let's make a graphical user interface for the L2.

1740
01:40:33,692 --> 01:41:01,692
Let's put the L2 out and see if other people use it. So the journey has been for me
just assuming that everyone else will do the other work to me, kind of almost as you
can tell now, getting a little nervous as to like if Bitcoin will blow its huge lead
and like not not work out because of people's refusal to face these engineering
challenges.

1741
01:41:01,692 --> 01:41:14,692
That we must face to get to the 8 billion users at some point. And at this point
now, people just culturally losing interest and even like pursuing that goal or just
turning the whole thing into a Ponzi scheme or whatever.

1742
01:41:15,692 --> 01:41:28,692
So I wasn't happy about that. Bitcoin Core, it's very political about, you know, who
they they don't like triage the software and decide like this is the most important
thing that we need.

1743
01:41:28,692 --> 01:41:41,692
We will then do it. That would be the rational thing to do. But instead, they it's
kind of like they have like a little hippie garden type of thing. And they each work
on what interests them.

1744
01:41:42,692 --> 01:42:03,692
And you're supposed to water other people's plants when they're on vacation and then
they'll water your place. First, did you review? And then they'll review your thing.
And, you know, that's great. But and sometimes it is interesting to see what what
what the other people are up to and whether people's ideas are.

1745
01:42:03,692 --> 01:42:22,692
But that's one problem. The second problem is we haven't done any soft forks, as I
mentioned already. So there's no you don't even know what the process is. There's no
like do this, then do this and do this. You are under arrest. You have been
indicted. You are arraigned or whatever you are.

1746
01:42:23,692 --> 01:42:38,692
You have been convicted, you are found guilty and now you've been sentenced and now
you're incarcerated. So they figured out the Jewish Jewish people in 2000 BC or
whatever. They kind of invented this due process idea or something. I think someone
told me that. I don't know if that's true, but I assume it is.

1747
01:42:39,692 --> 01:42:59,692
Like about you, you need to know like where you are in the process. Otherwise, it's
unjust. And you have like these, you know, a dictator, just someone goes into the
black bag and they're gone, you know, and no one knows what happened to them. And
Hitler would do the one day trial. Did you shoot the person, you know?

1748
01:43:00,692 --> 01:43:06,692
So it's really easy to get away with a cover up if you're just going to kill
everyone. Like, you know, the.

1749
01:43:07,692 --> 01:43:10,692
The witnesses were unavailable for comments, right? So like you have.

1750
01:43:12,692 --> 01:43:28,692
In contrast, so that's kind of like where we are within Bitcoin development, where
you don't know like what no one knows what's going on and there's no accountability,
partly by design, because first of all, everyone thought the government would come
in and like arrest everyone for a long time, like in 2013.

1751
01:43:29,692 --> 01:43:30,692
Right.

1752
01:43:30,692 --> 01:43:37,692
It's commonly believed that you would suffer enormously as a result of working on
Bitcoin development.

1753
01:43:38,692 --> 01:43:52,692
But then Craig also CSW, he also, I think, exacerbated this one, at least one notch
because he decided to sue everyone, everyone whose name he could find was publicly
associated with.

1754
01:43:53,692 --> 01:43:55,692
Yeah, which is a disgraceful thing to do.

1755
01:43:56,692 --> 01:44:04,692
Unsportsmanlike and contrary to the progress of mankind, et cetera, and just very
mean spirited thing to do.

1756
01:44:05,692 --> 01:44:08,692
And so they have built it so that there's no accountability.

1757
01:44:09,692 --> 01:44:12,692
So you can't, you know, say this person's responsible.

1758
01:44:13,692 --> 01:44:19,692
As a result, you know, it's become a design by committee like thing where nothing
happens.

1759
01:44:20,692 --> 01:44:26,692
If anything controversial happens, they just, you know, quietly drop the
conversation.

1760
01:44:27,692 --> 01:44:28,692
This has happened many, many times.

1761
01:44:29,692 --> 01:44:34,692
Again, this is a mistake that Litecoin should try very, very hard to not repeat.

1762
01:44:35,692 --> 01:44:36,692
This is not worth it at all.

1763
01:44:36,692 --> 01:44:54,692
You should just have people provisionally or conditionally or temporarily have some
type of authority and accountability where someone says, listen, OK, this is the
person who's going to be in charge for the next three months or however you want to
do it.

1764
01:44:55,692 --> 01:44:56,692
There's many, many ways of doing it.

1765
01:44:57,692 --> 01:45:00,692
And it doesn't mean this person's a dictator or whatever, the king or something.

1766
01:45:00,692 --> 01:45:04,692
But it just means this is the person you would blame if you would say, well, wait a
minute.

1767
01:45:05,692 --> 01:45:07,692
We were supposed to have the MimbleWimble extension block by now.

1768
01:45:08,692 --> 01:45:09,692
Why? Where is it?

1769
01:45:10,692 --> 01:45:13,692
And then at least someone would wake up in the morning.

1770
01:45:14,692 --> 01:45:17,692
The alarm clock would go off and 9 a.m. the workday would start.

1771
01:45:18,692 --> 01:45:19,692
And they would say, you know what?

1772
01:45:20,692 --> 01:45:22,692
Today I'm actually responsible for doing something.

1773
01:45:23,692 --> 01:45:24,692
Whereas instead it just meanders on.

1774
01:45:25,692 --> 01:45:28,692
So speaking of meandering on, my answer has meandered again as it often does.

1775
01:45:28,692 --> 01:45:30,692
We are getting closer to your question.

1776
01:45:31,692 --> 01:45:32,692
Yeah, I think this is interesting.

1777
01:45:33,692 --> 01:45:34,692
I mean, we did that with MimbleWimble.

1778
01:45:35,692 --> 01:45:36,692
It did take a few years.

1779
01:45:37,692 --> 01:45:41,692
But David Burkett and he's the one I might be preaching to the choir, but he's the
one that actually commented on your post.

1780
01:45:42,692 --> 01:45:44,692
He was the lead developer from that from Grin and everything.

1781
01:45:45,692 --> 01:45:49,692
So we do have some structure under the foundation's umbrella with crowdfunding that
we do have more of a structured approach.

1782
01:45:50,692 --> 01:45:51,692
I can't speak authoritatively on it.

1783
01:45:52,692 --> 01:45:53,692
I'm not in those positions.

1784
01:45:54,692 --> 01:45:56,692
And I don't know what the Bitcoin development team looks like.

1785
01:45:56,692 --> 01:46:01,692
But we have some of that top down to a degree, even with Charlie.

1786
01:46:02,692 --> 01:46:03,692
For now, at least.

1787
01:46:04,692 --> 01:46:06,692
So I think this is.

1788
01:46:08,692 --> 01:46:09,692
We're talking about QC.

1789
01:46:12,692 --> 01:46:13,692
I defuse these two things in a short way.

1790
01:46:14,692 --> 01:46:15,692
I hope I hope I can do it.

1791
01:46:16,692 --> 01:46:19,692
But the two ideas are the soft fork is harmless and everyone should love it.

1792
01:46:20,692 --> 01:46:21,692
And everyone should know that.

1793
01:46:23,692 --> 01:46:24,692
So too bad for them.

1794
01:46:25,692 --> 01:46:27,692
But the second idea is, you know, Bitcoin core.

1795
01:46:28,692 --> 01:46:31,692
It is sort of dysfunctional and committee like.

1796
01:46:32,692 --> 01:46:33,692
And this is very slow.

1797
01:46:34,692 --> 01:46:36,692
You know, they don't want people to come in.

1798
01:46:37,692 --> 01:46:40,692
It's like someone coming into your house and rearranging your furniture or whatever.

1799
01:46:41,692 --> 01:46:42,692
So these are the two ideas.

1800
01:46:43,692 --> 01:46:46,692
And where they mix is this QC idea, which is.

1801
01:46:47,692 --> 01:46:51,692
I told you that the soft fork is, you know, many of them.

1802
01:46:52,692 --> 01:46:55,692
It's debatable what is a soft fork or not.

1803
01:46:56,692 --> 01:47:00,692
But basically, in my view, just especially these up, not soft works.

1804
01:47:01,692 --> 01:47:03,692
They're all opt in, reversible and ignorable.

1805
01:47:04,692 --> 01:47:09,692
So in my head, why wouldn't why wouldn't everyone be in favor of trying them all the
time?

1806
01:47:10,692 --> 01:47:12,692
Let's be and in fact, let's push the envelope on how experimental they are.

1807
01:47:13,692 --> 01:47:15,692
But of course, other people, they don't live in my head.

1808
01:47:16,692 --> 01:47:19,692
They just live with whatever they, you know, they so they think.

1809
01:47:20,692 --> 01:47:22,692
Soft fork, it sounds like a risk.

1810
01:47:23,692 --> 01:47:25,692
For some reason, it's it's been turned into a risk, even though it's not.

1811
01:47:26,692 --> 01:47:28,692
So I thought for a while I tried to convince people.

1812
01:47:29,692 --> 01:47:33,692
It was like fighting the good fight of trying to just explain to people.

1813
01:47:34,692 --> 01:47:36,692
Well, listen, you know, the way the soft fork works is.

1814
01:47:37,692 --> 01:47:38,692
It just takes a block that.

1815
01:47:40,692 --> 01:47:41,692
Old nodes would find.

1816
01:47:42,692 --> 01:47:43,692
Valid and.

1817
01:47:44,692 --> 01:47:45,692
Invalidates it.

1818
01:47:46,692 --> 01:47:47,692
So the old nodes.

1819
01:47:48,692 --> 01:47:53,692
You know, it's like, but when I started doing this, I realized it just didn't work
and it didn't persuade anyone.

1820
01:47:54,692 --> 01:47:55,692
No one cared.

1821
01:47:56,692 --> 01:47:57,692
You touch the code.

1822
01:47:58,692 --> 01:47:59,692
It looks like you are up to something.

1823
01:48:00,692 --> 01:48:01,692
So I thought, well, you know what?

1824
01:48:01,692 --> 01:48:08,692
Honestly, it's possible to do this with a second application that just runs right
next to.

1825
01:48:09,692 --> 01:48:10,692
The first one.

1826
01:48:11,692 --> 01:48:15,692
The code, excuse me, the node, the Litecoin node.

1827
01:48:17,692 --> 01:48:20,692
And Bitcoin node, it already has an RPC call called invalidate block.

1828
01:48:22,692 --> 01:48:28,692
And that is what the soft fork would do, is it would say if someone tries to use BIP300, but they don't use it the right way.

1829
01:48:28,692 --> 01:48:29,692
Block is invalid.

1830
01:48:30,692 --> 01:48:36,692
Whereas if it so you can only try to use BIP300 and use it the correct way, so
that's that's what the software accomplishes.

1831
01:48:37,692 --> 01:48:40,692
But I tried to explain this to people and it's hard to explain.

1832
01:48:41,692 --> 01:48:43,692
So the more interesting thing is you can activate.

1833
01:48:44,692 --> 01:48:45,692
BIP300.

1834
01:48:46,692 --> 01:48:52,692
By without changing the binary code without changing the soft without touching.

1835
01:48:52,692 --> 01:48:59,692
The, you know, Bitcoin core or, you know, Litecoin node core, you know, Bitcoin core
software.

1836
01:49:00,692 --> 01:49:03,692
And just run this this second thing right next to it.

1837
01:49:04,692 --> 01:49:10,692
And then people would say stuff like, you know, what if what if you stop running
that part?

1838
01:49:11,692 --> 01:49:12,692
Then it just deactivated.

1839
01:49:13,692 --> 01:49:16,692
So so this is kind of like my way of it.

1840
01:49:16,692 --> 01:49:22,692
It's the CUSF idea is partly my way of trying to, again, wake people up to how great
the soft fork is said.

1841
01:49:23,692 --> 01:49:24,692
Listen, this is that's what I mean.

1842
01:49:25,692 --> 01:49:26,692
So you'd still prefer a soft fork?

1843
01:49:27,692 --> 01:49:37,692
I think over the years under the hood, it is kind of inefficient because the
activator has to have like a copy of all the blocks and scan them a second time.

1844
01:49:38,692 --> 01:49:39,692
It has some like cash and everything.

1845
01:49:40,692 --> 01:49:42,692
But so it's kind of like almost twice as much work.

1846
01:49:43,692 --> 01:49:48,692
Not quite, but the CUSF for the computer for CUSF, not a true fork.

1847
01:49:50,692 --> 01:49:57,692
Like I'm not like a traditional thing where you just go in to like coin core and you
just edit and you say, OK, I'm not five previously did nothing.

1848
01:49:58,692 --> 01:50:00,692
And it would always pass the script interpreter.

1849
01:50:01,692 --> 01:50:04,692
Now it will fail if conditions.

1850
01:50:05,692 --> 01:50:06,692
And then that's but that's all software.

1851
01:50:06,692 --> 01:50:09,692
So in my head, I was trying to say, listen, this is all software is.

1852
01:50:10,692 --> 01:50:11,692
This is you take up not five.

1853
01:50:12,692 --> 01:50:15,692
And sometimes the script interpreter will fail and it will make the block invalid.

1854
01:50:16,692 --> 01:50:21,692
And no one will ever do that because the worst thing ever is to have the invalid as
to mine a block that is invalid.

1855
01:50:22,692 --> 01:50:24,692
You could have had money and said you have nothing.

1856
01:50:25,692 --> 01:50:26,692
So that's.

1857
01:50:27,692 --> 01:50:28,692
That's fine.

1858
01:50:29,692 --> 01:50:33,692
And then all the previous versions of the software continue to work.

1859
01:50:33,692 --> 01:50:36,692
So I was like, you know, I was trying to tell people, oh, of course, BIP300.

1860
01:50:37,692 --> 01:50:38,692
You know, I can't I can't do any of these.

1861
01:50:39,692 --> 01:50:40,692
It can't do anything bad.

1862
01:50:41,692 --> 01:50:43,692
I can't do anything that you couldn't already have experienced.

1863
01:50:44,692 --> 01:50:50,692
Like you could what it was already possible before with the software you have today.

1864
01:50:51,692 --> 01:50:59,692
You know, so but instead, I was like, well, actually, this is proving very difficult
to it hasn't persuade people.

1865
01:51:00,692 --> 01:51:03,692
And so the you can just do it in a separate software application.

1866
01:51:04,692 --> 01:51:06,692
It has many other benefits.

1867
01:51:07,692 --> 01:51:15,692
One is you do not you avoid what's called rebase hell, which is the the official
version of the software is changing all the time.

1868
01:51:16,692 --> 01:51:24,692
And so if your changes happen to overlap with any of theirs and it's you think maybe
that what didn't wasn't didn't I just say how modular it was.

1869
01:51:24,692 --> 01:51:30,692
But actually, the truth is, one of the things that software developers like to do is
like to refactor the code.

1870
01:51:31,692 --> 01:51:32,692
And it's kind of important also.

1871
01:51:33,692 --> 01:51:35,692
But refactors basically just take code that's working just fine.

1872
01:51:36,692 --> 01:51:37,692
Split it into like smaller pieces.

1873
01:51:38,692 --> 01:51:45,692
This in terms of the number of lines of code touched is very high, even though it
doesn't really change anything.

1874
01:51:46,692 --> 01:51:52,692
So it's very likely that something you've done will get overwritten.

1875
01:51:52,692 --> 01:51:53,692
And then you'll have to go back.

1876
01:51:54,692 --> 01:51:55,692
You have to do more work.

1877
01:51:56,692 --> 01:52:01,692
Go back and update your thing and you have to keep updating it forever.

1878
01:52:02,692 --> 01:52:07,692
And this is just like kind of a drag because it's not fun and you don't get anything
for it at all.

1879
01:52:08,692 --> 01:52:17,692
And what all the thing the only thing you get is now my client is a patch that
client or whatever is viable again for now.

1880
01:52:17,692 --> 01:52:22,692
But then they when they release their new version, they dunk you right back in.

1881
01:52:23,692 --> 01:52:26,692
And that's why it's called rebase hell, where you just have to keep doing it and
you're not getting anywhere.

1882
01:52:27,692 --> 01:52:28,692
So you avoid that.

1883
01:52:29,692 --> 01:52:30,692
Another thing is you can write it in whatever language you want.

1884
01:52:31,692 --> 01:52:33,692
You don't have to write it in like a Bitcoin core C++.

1885
01:52:34,692 --> 01:52:42,692
So you're talking about, again, the node for Drivechain with the enforcer thing you
would run right next to Bitcoin core.

1886
01:52:42,692 --> 01:52:48,692
And then together it does what it would have done if there were a soft fork.

1887
01:52:49,692 --> 01:52:53,692
Yeah, if there was a new version of Bitcoin core that like officially supported
Drivechain.

1888
01:52:54,692 --> 01:52:55,692
So there are many a fringe.

1889
01:52:56,692 --> 01:52:58,692
Another benefit is actually I think it's a benefit that you can shut it off.

1890
01:52:59,692 --> 01:53:09,692
I have a I there's like some people in the Bitcoin community have a an extremely
interesting opinion.

1891
01:53:09,692 --> 01:53:16,692
And so in the interest of total fairness and transparency, I going to try to share
it.

1892
01:53:17,692 --> 01:53:21,692
And then I have an opinion that's apparently very different than Luke Junior's.

1893
01:53:22,692 --> 01:53:25,692
So I've talked with Luke many times a year or three.

1894
01:53:26,692 --> 01:53:27,692
I've talked to him like on signal.

1895
01:53:28,692 --> 01:53:29,692
I talked to him in person.

1896
01:53:30,692 --> 01:53:31,692
I've tried to figure out what is going on in his head.

1897
01:53:32,692 --> 01:53:38,692
And but to me, the soft works, they really are modular and you can turn them on and
off if you if you really want to.

1898
01:53:39,692 --> 01:53:40,692
You just have to reverse the fork, correct?

1899
01:53:41,692 --> 01:53:42,692
You want to change this line and then you run another.

1900
01:53:43,692 --> 01:53:44,692
There are a few different lines.

1901
01:53:45,692 --> 01:53:49,692
One thing is you could delete and you could just go back and say, I'm not five will
always succeed.

1902
01:53:50,692 --> 01:53:53,692
And it'll just be someone's bad luck if they happen to be on the version.

1903
01:53:54,692 --> 01:54:04,692
Of the intermediate version and a prankster for no reason generates a BIP300
transaction that would break the rules if they were still being enforced.

1904
01:54:05,692 --> 01:54:06,692
This makes no sense for a lot of reasons.

1905
01:54:06,692 --> 01:54:09,692
One is because at this point you've deactivated the 300.

1906
01:54:10,692 --> 01:54:12,692
So all this all this money could just be stolen by anyone.

1907
01:54:13,692 --> 01:54:21,692
But even in that case, the only thing that would happen is that person's node would
say that the block is invalid and they would be stuck.

1908
01:54:22,692 --> 01:54:24,692
They would never lose any money or really have any negative concept.

1909
01:54:25,692 --> 01:54:30,692
They would just be stuck sinking the chain until they either think you could say
until they upgrade to the newest version.

1910
01:54:31,692 --> 01:54:34,692
But I don't like that because I hate forcing people to upgrade.

1911
01:54:34,692 --> 01:54:37,692
But it also works if they just go back or version to before.

1912
01:54:38,692 --> 01:54:40,692
So, you know, like to me, I don't really care about any of this.

1913
01:54:41,692 --> 01:54:42,692
But some people think this is really the end of the world.

1914
01:54:43,692 --> 01:54:51,692
Luke Junior has a if you investigate carefully, he has a weird belief that if anyone
is if you need 80 percent of the network to be running the latest version.

1915
01:54:52,692 --> 01:54:53,692
And that people are even running previous versions.

1916
01:54:54,692 --> 01:55:00,692
Then this counts as it being SPV mode and that this means the network is not
actually operating.

1917
01:55:01,692 --> 01:55:03,692
And, you know, it's very hard to understand because I don't agree with him.

1918
01:55:04,692 --> 01:55:10,692
For me, a paraphrase. But he thinks like he literally will say then Bitcoin is dead
if this 80 percent threshold is not met.

1919
01:55:11,692 --> 01:55:13,692
And he doesn't care at all about old versions.

1920
01:55:14,692 --> 01:55:17,692
And I've tried to ask him all kinds of weird questions like how did what?

1921
01:55:18,692 --> 01:55:21,692
You know, it's not like when a new version is released, everyone instantly knows
about that fact.

1922
01:55:21,692 --> 01:55:24,692
So what if someone they were if they release a new version in a cave for two years?

1923
01:55:25,692 --> 01:55:27,692
And I ask him all these other questions.

1924
01:55:28,692 --> 01:55:31,692
If everyone in India, they have no node and they turn on an SPV node.

1925
01:55:32,692 --> 01:55:35,692
Now we've blown the 80 percent number has gone really, really, you know, has gone to
zero.

1926
01:55:36,692 --> 01:55:38,692
And but why? Why does that mean that Bitcoin is dead?

1927
01:55:39,692 --> 01:55:41,692
So I try to figure out a lot, you know, what he's talking about.

1928
01:55:42,692 --> 01:55:45,692
And I just completely 100 percent disagree with him at all.

1929
01:55:45,692 --> 01:55:47,692
And I think that this he's a very smart guy.

1930
01:55:48,692 --> 01:55:49,692
But this this whole thing about.

1931
01:55:50,692 --> 01:55:53,692
He doesn't agree with me, though, about the soft works being modular.

1932
01:55:54,692 --> 01:55:57,692
But see, this is the thing is now you have a lot to explain when CUSF comes out.

1933
01:55:58,692 --> 01:55:59,692
It's kind of like now it's its own thing.

1934
01:56:00,692 --> 01:56:03,692
You can turn it on and off if 51 percent hash rate is running it.

1935
01:56:04,692 --> 01:56:10,692
It will enforce the rules for that duration of time, which ideally would just be
forever.

1936
01:56:10,692 --> 01:56:14,692
You know, it would just the same as all the other rules that Bitcoin enforces.

1937
01:56:15,692 --> 01:56:18,692
Or you could do something where you run it together for a while.

1938
01:56:19,692 --> 01:56:22,692
You test it and then shut it off and then turn it on permanently or you test it.

1939
01:56:23,692 --> 01:56:26,692
And then the Litecoin people merge something that makes it totally compatible.

1940
01:56:27,692 --> 01:56:29,692
And now you don't need the extra thing or people like the extra thing.

1941
01:56:30,692 --> 01:56:31,692
They keep it or there's like 40 or 50 extra things.

1942
01:56:32,692 --> 01:56:33,692
And they all just they're all just out there in the world.

1943
01:56:34,692 --> 01:56:36,692
And the miners meet and they decide, oh, what's going to maximize our.

1944
01:56:37,692 --> 01:56:45,692
Revenue, which will be highest Litecoin price and most fee paying, happy fee paying
users, the miners.

1945
01:56:46,692 --> 01:56:47,692
So that is fine to me.

1946
01:56:48,692 --> 01:56:50,692
All this is this is the ideal situation.

1947
01:56:51,692 --> 01:56:54,692
But to other people, this is like some kind of mysterious problem that has to be.

1948
01:56:55,692 --> 01:56:56,692
So I don't know. I don't know.

1949
01:56:57,692 --> 01:57:04,692
Some people don't they really are glued to this idea that the soft forks need
unanimous agreement among humans.

1950
01:57:04,692 --> 01:57:05,692
But that has never been true either.

1951
01:57:06,692 --> 01:57:07,692
That's the whole point.

1952
01:57:08,692 --> 01:57:09,692
The whole point of the software.

1953
01:57:10,692 --> 01:57:11,692
And I presented this at MIT.

1954
01:57:12,692 --> 01:57:13,692
The MIT Expo.

1955
01:57:14,692 --> 01:57:15,692
But it was at the university.

1956
01:57:16,692 --> 01:57:18,692
I didn't mean to imply that I was presenting it like whatever.

1957
01:57:19,692 --> 01:57:21,692
But there was that I was an invited speaker at the MIT Bitcoin Expo.

1958
01:57:22,692 --> 01:57:24,692
And I was invited to speak on this governance topic.

1959
01:57:25,692 --> 01:57:26,692
And my slides are on drivechain.info.

1960
01:57:27,692 --> 01:57:28,692
You can find them.

1961
01:57:28,692 --> 01:57:34,692
And I point out I go into the history of the soft fork, which in 2012 was named.

1962
01:57:35,692 --> 01:57:37,692
It was just discovered that you could do this.

1963
01:57:38,692 --> 01:57:40,692
And people what people realized was.

1964
01:57:41,692 --> 01:57:45,692
We are never going to get everyone to upgrade, you know, by a certain time.

1965
01:57:46,692 --> 01:57:48,692
So the mandatory upgrade is is dead.

1966
01:57:49,692 --> 01:57:50,692
So we have to do this instead.

1967
01:57:51,692 --> 01:57:55,692
So it's because you couldn't get everyone to upgrade that the soft fork thing was
invented.

1968
01:57:55,692 --> 01:57:58,692
Where it was like, OK, whoever wants the new feature will upgrade.

1969
01:57:59,692 --> 01:58:02,692
The old people will just stay where they are.

1970
01:58:03,692 --> 01:58:07,692
And when 51 percent hash rate upgrades, then that would be.

1971
01:58:08,692 --> 01:58:10,692
And the BIP9 part was as a courtesy.

1972
01:58:11,692 --> 01:58:15,692
It intentionally suppressed the activation until it was like 95 percent.

1973
01:58:16,692 --> 01:58:21,692
And this was totally a courteous thing to stop anyone from being like wrong footed
by this.

1974
01:58:21,692 --> 01:58:24,692
Because back then there was no controversy about any of this.

1975
01:58:25,692 --> 01:58:28,692
So it was just kind of like, when did the miners get around to activating?

1976
01:58:29,692 --> 01:58:31,692
Everyone liked all the soft forks.

1977
01:58:32,692 --> 01:58:34,692
Now, all this stuff is new in my point of view.

1978
01:58:35,692 --> 01:58:36,692
Newest really from 2017.

1979
01:58:37,692 --> 01:58:39,692
But to me, it's just a new derangement.

1980
01:58:40,692 --> 01:58:45,692
The fact that, you know, this this is controversial and that people think that you
need to agree.

1981
01:58:46,692 --> 01:58:48,692
Of course, you don't because the old nodes aren't affected.

1982
01:58:49,692 --> 01:58:50,692
So there's no there's no victim.

1983
01:58:51,692 --> 01:58:52,692
So I don't even notice anything.

1984
01:58:53,692 --> 01:58:54,692
So maybe, you know, this is how it is.

1985
01:58:55,692 --> 01:59:00,692
So the CUSF enforcer is more like a bolt on if you want to go that route.

1986
01:59:01,692 --> 01:59:04,692
Yeah, it's kind of like downloading like a plug in or something, you know.

1987
01:59:05,692 --> 01:59:10,692
I make that example because this entire idea of ordinals and all that stuff kind of
came.

1988
01:59:11,692 --> 01:59:12,692
It didn't touch core. It didn't do anything.

1989
01:59:13,692 --> 01:59:14,692
But it's very similar. You could run.

1990
01:59:16,692 --> 01:59:17,692
Ruslan etched them onto a block.

1991
01:59:18,692 --> 01:59:20,692
And so if you turn the indexers off, they're gone, but they're still there.

1992
01:59:21,692 --> 01:59:22,692
But you didn't have to change core.

1993
01:59:24,692 --> 01:59:26,692
So this is so anybody could really do this at any time.

1994
01:59:27,692 --> 01:59:29,692
Very, very, very similar. There was one significant difference.

1995
01:59:30,692 --> 01:59:34,692
I would want to see a soft fork personally, but maybe you could test it with this
sort of bolt on first.

1996
01:59:35,692 --> 01:59:36,692
It's up to the community. I'm one man.

1997
01:59:37,692 --> 01:59:41,692
But it's interesting, though, that you've kind of have different avenues to
accomplish the same end.

1998
01:59:42,692 --> 01:59:44,692
It's sort of out of necessity.

1999
01:59:45,692 --> 01:59:59,692
Unfortunately, it would be interesting if Bitcoin core were more run in a way where
just the more new good ideas were aggressively pursued, which would be less
conservative.

2000
02:00:00,692 --> 02:00:02,692
I don't know if that would actually be net better or not.

2001
02:00:03,692 --> 02:00:06,692
But yeah, you don't have a world where they're doing that.

2002
02:00:07,692 --> 02:00:09,692
So if you want to do anything new, you have to kind of fit it in this way.

2003
02:00:09,692 --> 02:00:17,692
The only difference between CUSF and the Ordinal thing is that the Ordinal thing
will never kick back this invalidate block thing, which is significant.

2004
02:00:18,692 --> 02:00:20,692
So that is a significant difference.

2005
02:00:22,692 --> 02:00:32,692
But with that extra level of firepower, that is what allows you to move the coins,
the actual coins around.

2006
02:00:33,692 --> 02:00:34,692
So the Ordinals cannot move.

2007
02:00:35,692 --> 02:00:38,692
You can't say something like, if you give me this Ordinal, then I'll give you seven
Bitcoin or something.

2008
02:00:39,692 --> 02:00:41,692
But with the CUSF thing, you can.

2009
02:00:42,692 --> 02:00:49,692
That's why you can move the Litecoin based on whatever, CTV or any other soft fork
you want to do, OpVault or something.

2010
02:00:50,692 --> 02:00:57,692
That's another thing Litecoin should consider is we have all these soft forks that
are pretty good and pretty harmless.

2011
02:00:58,692 --> 02:00:59,692
We have an OP_CAT.

2012
02:01:00,692 --> 02:01:01,692
We have a CUSF for OP_CAT.

2013
02:01:01,692 --> 02:01:08,692
We made this first demo a long time ago because OP_CAT is only 13 or 14 lines of
code.

2014
02:01:09,692 --> 02:01:11,692
So we have a CUSF activator for OP_CAT.

2015
02:01:12,692 --> 02:01:23,692
This is another mystery is that the OP_CAT people are shilling OP_CAT, but I told Udi
and Eric this at the party in Nashville or something two conferences ago.

2016
02:01:24,692 --> 02:01:28,692
And you would think they would be more interested in it, but they're not.

2017
02:01:28,692 --> 02:01:40,692
So the question is, a lot of this soft fork thing is this prestige economy of just
people trying to figure out who is influential, I think, for what reason.

2018
02:01:41,692 --> 02:01:42,692
And so all of this is irrational and absurd.

2019
02:01:43,692 --> 02:01:48,692
Everyone should just be saying, how can we get high fee-paying users?

2020
02:01:49,692 --> 02:01:53,692
How can we get the price to go up by making a more useful coin?

2021
02:01:54,692 --> 02:01:55,692
Yep, yep, yep.

2022
02:01:56,692 --> 02:01:57,692
Let's see.

2023
02:01:58,692 --> 02:02:00,692
The user activate, we talked about that one.

2024
02:02:01,692 --> 02:02:06,692
The MimbleWimble extension block, that obviously would have zero, there would be no
impact on that with this core untouched.

2025
02:02:07,692 --> 02:02:10,692
And obviously, if you did a soft fork, it would integrate whatever exists.

2026
02:02:11,692 --> 02:02:14,692
You can already kind of tell, though, why I would say that that is the case.

2027
02:02:15,692 --> 02:02:19,692
Because think about it, you're just running those two things now, and then this
other thing is being run.

2028
02:02:20,692 --> 02:02:33,692
And the thing will kick back and validate block under some conditions, but those
conditions have literally nothing to do with the MimbleWimble extension block, which
it may not even know.

2029
02:02:34,692 --> 02:02:38,692
It's very unlikely that the BIP300 activator knows that it is there.

2030
02:02:39,692 --> 02:02:47,692
But even if it does, then you just shut off the BIP300 activator, and then you're
exactly back to where you started.

2031
02:02:48,692 --> 02:02:52,692
So I'm in favor of these modular and reversible soft forks.

2032
02:02:53,692 --> 02:02:56,692
A lot of people think this is some huge, huge whatever.

2033
02:02:57,692 --> 02:02:58,692
It's irreversible and forevermore.

2034
02:02:59,692 --> 02:03:03,692
Especially in a situation where you say, this is brand new, and we will test it this
week.

2035
02:03:04,692 --> 02:03:09,692
And then it's like, okay, you tell everyone that you will shut it off at the end of
the week.

2036
02:03:10,692 --> 02:03:11,692
And so everyone can test it out with $5.

2037
02:03:12,692 --> 02:03:14,692
They know they're going to lose this money.

2038
02:03:15,692 --> 02:03:21,692
Well, now in that case, now it's really, really like, who's the victim now?

2039
02:03:22,692 --> 02:03:23,692
It's really hard to find a victim in these.

2040
02:03:24,692 --> 02:03:28,692
You make these scenarios and you just think, who is the victim here?

2041
02:03:29,692 --> 02:03:30,692
No one, but you know, whatever.

2042
02:03:31,692 --> 02:03:37,692
Well, this is going backwards a few minutes, but talking about how things get done
within Litecoin with Core.

2043
02:03:38,692 --> 02:03:39,692
Core is funded by the foundation.

2044
02:03:40,692 --> 02:03:42,692
I know developers are with the foundation as far as I can tell.

2045
02:03:42,692 --> 02:03:45,692
Now, again, Ordinals kind of came out of left field and no one could stop it.

2046
02:03:46,692 --> 02:03:47,692
So there's some of that that exists.

2047
02:03:48,692 --> 02:03:49,692
And we could do that, I guess, with Drivechains.

2048
02:03:50,692 --> 02:03:57,692
But we were able to accomplish with consent and everyone agreeing to, hey, let's add
the memable extension block.

2049
02:03:58,692 --> 02:03:59,692
We did it successfully.

2050
02:04:00,692 --> 02:04:01,692
It was a gigantic upgrade and it's awesome.

2051
02:04:02,692 --> 02:04:05,692
So if the community were to signal, hey, we want Drivechains, they could be done.

2052
02:04:06,692 --> 02:04:10,692
So I do think it's something that we as a Litecoin community need to consider
seriously.

2053
02:04:10,692 --> 02:04:13,692
I know you've already given us some attention again last year at the conference.

2054
02:04:14,692 --> 02:04:15,692
You're sitting on the show.

2055
02:04:16,692 --> 02:04:18,692
There were some tweets over the course of the last month.

2056
02:04:19,692 --> 02:04:22,692
Did you ever talk to Charlie about this or any developers in Litecoin?

2057
02:04:23,692 --> 02:04:25,692
Well, yeah, I met Charlie a few times.

2058
02:04:26,692 --> 02:04:27,692
I haven't really had a conversation with him.

2059
02:04:28,692 --> 02:04:29,692
I certainly would love to talk to him.

2060
02:04:30,692 --> 02:04:33,692
I think he's a great OG Bitcoiner.

2061
02:04:34,692 --> 02:04:35,692
And I saw him at the Nashville conference.

2062
02:04:36,692 --> 02:04:37,692
Important statement.

2063
02:04:38,692 --> 02:04:39,692
Very few people think about that.

2064
02:04:40,692 --> 02:04:41,692
OG Bitcoiner, yeah.

2065
02:04:42,692 --> 02:04:43,692
I would say so.

2066
02:04:44,692 --> 02:04:45,692
That's certainly the case.

2067
02:04:46,692 --> 02:04:47,692
It's also funny.

2068
02:04:48,692 --> 02:04:49,692
I have the ballet cards.

2069
02:04:50,692 --> 02:04:51,692
I also have some around here from his brother.

2070
02:04:52,692 --> 02:04:53,692
Yeah, yeah.

2071
02:04:54,692 --> 02:04:56,692
Except I'm a happy customer.

2072
02:05:01,692 --> 02:05:02,692
So yeah, Charlie's great.

2073
02:05:03,692 --> 02:05:06,692
I'd be happy to talk to him about this if that would help.

2074
02:05:06,692 --> 02:05:07,692
I think that...

2075
02:05:08,488 --> 02:05:12,488
I mean, it's ironic. So I did not create BIP300 so that Litecoin could be a success
and destroy Bitcoin and take over.

2076
02:05:12,488 --> 02:05:30,488
So that's the truth. It's not what I had in mind. But I think at this point, the way
the CUSF client works is that any L1 that is similar enough to Bitcoin should be
able to use it.

2077
02:05:31,488 --> 02:05:45,488
And I think I started to radically rethink... Well, it's just it's not only me. Many
people feel this way. Like my friend Moonsettler, who's on Twitter, who's quite an
interesting guy.

2078
02:05:45,488 --> 02:06:02,488
If you just go into his Twitter now, you will find just enormous, like, you know,
depressing rants about how Bitcoin is not, you know, when we need to try again and
we need to try it.

2079
02:06:02,488 --> 02:06:21,488
So he's like, he's like even more of a... But I'm very pro competition is what I'm
trying. And that's what Drivechain is really was really about. And I think that's
also why it's not super popular among the developers, because the developers realize
that they will have to compete.

2080
02:06:21,488 --> 02:06:37,488
And I think they kind of don't like that to some extent. So basically Drivechain is
like you have your L1, but now anyone can do an L2. So now if you have Jeremy Rubin,
he does CTV L2 or OP_CAT L2 or whatever.

2081
02:06:37,488 --> 02:07:01,488
Or you have someone does Zcash, someone does Monero sidechain, Monero Drivechain,
someone does a Zcash type Drivechain, you know, competing on privacy. It will
compete with, in a good way, it will compete with L1 Bitcoin, and it will compete
with L1 Monero, the altcoin, and it will compete with MimbleWimble extension blocks.

2082
02:07:02,488 --> 02:07:22,488
And I think that is the Pandora's box. It's not that it will affect... You see what
I mean? It's not that it will affect the 84 million coin limit. It's not that it
will break the nodes. It's not that it will harm the network in any way, the
computer.

2083
02:07:23,488 --> 02:07:48,488
But it may harm certain people's careers and aspirations because it's saying that,
you know, this is all going to be open source software released for free. And now if
you're not working as hard as you possibly can to please the user, someone, you
know, any other person on the Internet could be shipping something tomorrow.

2084
02:07:49,488 --> 02:08:02,488
And so I think that's kind of like, in a way, it's so good. To me, that's part of
what makes it such a good idea, is that good. We want to get rid of these corrupt,
lazy developers who don't care about the user and they're just wasting everyone's
time.

2085
02:08:03,488 --> 02:08:17,488
But you can see how politically it makes it slightly. Something that maybe requires
a little more guile than I would ever have thought. You would think, like, the
Bitcoin world making a lot of money, Bitcoin versus banks, etc. I would never have
thought that. It was so...

2086
02:08:18,488 --> 02:08:29,488
But, you know, stuff happened with the scaling war and people formed various teams
and cliques and things. But what I'm trying to say is that the...

2087
02:08:30,488 --> 02:08:44,488
What were we originally talking about? Oh, I don't even know. Charlie or something?
But I would be happy to talk to anyone about this idea. And I did not... Yeah, okay.
I did not make it. I did not invent it to help Litecoin destroy and defeat BTC.

2088
02:08:44,488 --> 02:09:03,488
But I certainly, at this point, I don't want to interfere with any competition. I
think we need a lot of people competing really hard. That is what we definitely...
We all need, everyone needs, and everyone deserves that. Everyone, everywhere.

2089
02:09:04,488 --> 02:09:19,488
And there's like that thing at the end of Pokemon Red. This is weird, the video
game. But the guy, you have the rival character who hates you the whole game and he
says, ah, my rival should be strong to keep me sharp. Yeah. So that's what we need.
We need competition.

2090
02:09:19,488 --> 02:09:41,488
And so I'm really, really in favor of anyone taking this idea and running with it.
So I'd be happy to talk to Charlie or whatever, or go to another Litecoin summit
conference. Yeah, if it is, especially if it is near a Bitcoin event, I'm already
going to.

2091
02:09:41,488 --> 02:10:06,488
But yeah, we all, everyone deserves, all the users, all the Bitcoin users and all of
the crypto users and every user of the internet and the 8 billion people. We all
deserve the best possible software that we can get. And so that's what we should
have.

2092
02:10:07,488 --> 02:10:27,488
Noted. I'm going to go to Litecoin after Drivechains. Of course, hypothetical, but
kind of hash out some things I have in terms of how this will work or what it may
look like. So Drivechains would function within their own node environments. In
other words, it's not Litecoin Core. It's going to be some sort of node for
Drivechains itself.

2093
02:10:28,488 --> 02:10:29,488
The L2s, yeah. They each have their own.

2094
02:10:30,488 --> 02:10:44,488
They each. So if there's 256, which we established, that's the limit currently
arbitrary, and it can be changed. Although I am really struggling to understand what
would fill those. But again, that's not up to me. It's a collaborative event.

2095
02:10:44,488 --> 02:11:01,488
But if someone had, let's say, LDC, I'm making up conventions here, LDC XMR, so the
Monero feature versus LDC NMC, which is the Namecoin feature, because we actually do
want to decentralize ICANN or compete within a decentralized fashion.

2096
02:11:01,488 --> 02:11:22,488
They would just download an IDC XMR node, and then somebody else would download an
IDC Namecoin node, or would they be within the same one? Or we're talking about this
team has a concept. They're going to run one Drivechain. You're going to download
their client because that's the feature you want. It's not like a universal client
that supports them all, correct?

2097
02:11:23,488 --> 02:11:28,488
That's right. And in fact, that would basically not work because think about it.

2098
02:11:29,488 --> 02:11:33,488
Well, currently everything's in core. That's why I say that. We only know one
environment.

2099
02:11:34,488 --> 02:11:44,488
We do have a thing right now. If you download our test software, which runs on
Bitcoin Core, but with fake coins deliberately for testing.

2100
02:11:45,488 --> 02:12:07,488
And we have a little thing that we call the launcher, and it's kind of modeled on
the Steam game launcher or something, where the launcher is just this tiny piece of
software, and it will download Bitcoin Core, it will download the enforcer, and then
you can click on which L2 do you want to download, download this or that.

2101
02:12:08,488 --> 02:12:14,488
And so that thing, the launcher, is kind of a unified thing. But of course, that's
not what you asked.

2102
02:12:15,488 --> 02:12:19,488
The launcher is just a thing that basically downloads all the stuff and plugs them
all together.

2103
02:12:19,488 --> 02:12:34,488
Each L2 has its own peer-to-peer network, and it has its own list of peers, and it
downloads its own blockchain from those peers, and then everyone validates that.

2104
02:12:35,488 --> 02:12:46,488
So it's a new blockchain. So really, the derived chain L2s, they're very similar to
altcoins, except they just don't have any altcoins. They just have coins sent to
them from L1.

2105
02:12:47,488 --> 02:12:56,488
But other than that, they're really simple, because it's a new piece of software. It
could be in any software language. It could have horrible mistakes and bugs and then
just not work.

2106
02:12:57,488 --> 02:12:59,488
And you have to defer to the team and their expertise, of course, right?

2107
02:13:00,488 --> 02:13:07,488
And see or give up or whatever. And then that's exactly why people would be cautious
at first.

2108
02:13:08,488 --> 02:13:20,488
But that's what we need. It's like a YouTube versus you have everything from one –
all the television is broadcast from one station in the 1960s or whatever.

2109
02:13:21,488 --> 02:13:28,488
But then on YouTube, anyone can just do anything. So of course, yeah, you get a lot
of low-quality – you get more low-quality weird stuff on there.

2110
02:13:28,488 --> 02:13:34,488
But of course, that's how freedom works.

2111
02:13:35,488 --> 02:13:52,488
In this case, the miners are probably unlikely – if something doesn't enhance the
brand of the coin, they probably won't let it into the 256-slot world.

2112
02:13:52,488 --> 02:14:01,488
Although, if there's a lot of slots and someone says, I think this is a good idea,
it's very likely that something can get a trial run, right?

2113
02:14:02,488 --> 02:14:07,488
Because it doesn't really cost the miners anything to – okay, you can take slot six
for now.

2114
02:14:08,488 --> 02:14:17,488
Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, so basically at the miner side, all Drivechains are
known and they're functioning and being mined actively with L1, right? These L2s.

2115
02:14:18,488 --> 02:14:23,488
It's not strictly required because of Blind Merged Mining, but it sort of is –

2116
02:14:24,488 --> 02:14:31,488
They're the participants by default. They're the ones running these alternate chains
or L2s.

2117
02:14:32,488 --> 02:14:43,488
But to the user, they could use Litecoin Core alone for the rest of their days and
never touch one of these, like I said, Monero version or Namecoin version built on
top as an L2.

2118
02:14:43,488 --> 02:14:51,488
So to the miners, everything is known, perhaps in a blind fashion, but to the user,
it's really up to their choice. That's pretty neat.

2119
02:14:52,488 --> 02:14:53,488
Exactly, yes.

2120
02:14:54,488 --> 02:15:00,488
Other than privacy, what are you foreseeing could be – I mean, I know there's like
20,000 tokens and coins and I don't care about the majority of them.

2121
02:15:01,488 --> 02:15:07,488
Privacy is compelling. We do have MWeb, but maybe we could have a stronger one like
a Monero variety on Litecoin.

2122
02:15:07,488 --> 02:15:14,488
Yeah, we have already something that uses the Orchard Crate from the Zcash Altcoin.

2123
02:15:15,488 --> 02:15:21,488
So it gives the user a Z address that is reusable and it hides the sender, the
receiver, the amount.

2124
02:15:22,488 --> 02:15:29,488
So we already have that. So if you download the Q7 Enforcer and hook it up to
Litecoin, you should be able to just use –

2125
02:15:29,488 --> 02:15:40,488
the L2s shouldn't need any modification. The L2 on BTC should be the same as on
Litecoin because it's actually talking to the Enforcer, the BIP300 Enforcer anyway.

2126
02:15:41,488 --> 02:15:45,488
So it shouldn't care at all. So we have that already. I think that's pretty neat.

2127
02:15:46,488 --> 02:15:48,488
Scale is the other important thing.

2128
02:15:49,488 --> 02:15:57,488
So since Litecoin has the faster block time, the blocks will not fill up as quickly.

2129
02:15:58,488 --> 02:16:06,488
So you don't need scale as much as Bitcoin will need it. You don't need L2 scale as
much because you have more L1.

2130
02:16:06,488 --> 02:16:14,488
But none of the blockchains have – what's required to scale to 8 billion users is
quite a bit.

2131
02:16:15,488 --> 02:16:25,488
As far as I've estimated, you would need about 14 of these L2s that I call Thunder
as a kind of like a little lightning joke of mine.

2132
02:16:26,488 --> 02:16:32,488
But we have this software out. We have actually a contest right now where anyone who
can improve the performance is pretty good.

2133
02:16:32,488 --> 02:16:44,488
It syncs like 160 megabyte blocks and like 10 of them in like 60 seconds or
something. So that's like 1.6 gigabytes.

2134
02:16:45,488 --> 02:16:51,488
But we have a contest. If anyone can improve that, you can win money. We're giving
out like $10,000 a week for the next six weeks.

2135
02:16:52,488 --> 02:17:00,488
So showing that, that's a contest that you can find on my blog. You can probably
find it on my Twitter.

2136
02:17:01,488 --> 02:17:03,488
Yeah, I can put that in the show notes too.

2137
02:17:04,488 --> 02:17:11,488
If you have 14 of these chains that grow linearly like from – I don't know. I have
the exact numbers.

2138
02:17:12,488 --> 02:17:17,488
But over five years, it passes like the 800 megabyte block size amount.

2139
02:17:18,488 --> 02:17:29,488
And that would scale to 8 billion people and it passes all the fees to the L1 miners
automatically through merge mining.

2140
02:17:30,488 --> 02:17:32,488
So that's another cool thing that, again, we already have.

2141
02:17:33,488 --> 02:17:36,488
So these are things that we already have that you should just take.

2142
02:17:37,488 --> 02:17:43,488
I have a version of Namecoin that I call BitNames, which is – Namecoin is an
altcoin.

2143
02:17:44,488 --> 02:17:46,488
So I actually love the Namecoin people. They're great.

2144
02:17:47,488 --> 02:17:51,488
But we didn't really want Bitcoin and then Namecoin.

2145
02:17:52,488 --> 02:17:57,488
We kind of – I prefer just what Namecoin is trying to do.

2146
02:17:58,488 --> 02:18:00,488
I think I tuned up one or two little things also.

2147
02:18:01,488 --> 02:18:06,488
But mainly, there's no second coin. It's just – you just pay with the original L1
coin.

2148
02:18:07,488 --> 02:18:08,488
So it'd be Litecoin in this case.

2149
02:18:09,488 --> 02:18:11,488
So we have that again already.

2150
02:18:12,488 --> 02:18:18,488
Then we have this thing called the BitAssets also, which is kind of like a Ordinal's
counterparty type thing.

2151
02:18:19,488 --> 02:18:23,488
We have also a bunch of different chains that were in various stages of completion.

2152
02:18:23,488 --> 02:18:31,488
Like some of them were completed, but they ran with the old version, the pre-CUSF
version, because actually CUSF is kind of new.

2153
02:18:32,488 --> 02:18:34,488
And so that was like – we had a version of Ethereum.

2154
02:18:35,488 --> 02:18:42,488
We had a couple of different interesting chains of that kind that we had already
finished.

2155
02:18:43,488 --> 02:18:46,488
And then, of course, anyone could build your own new thing.

2156
02:18:47,488 --> 02:18:48,488
Or we already have.

2157
02:18:48,488 --> 02:18:53,488
And I have two new chains that are going to come out.

2158
02:18:54,488 --> 02:18:55,488
I don't know when.

2159
02:18:56,488 --> 02:18:58,488
And I don't want to say because I feel like that will sort of jinx it.

2160
02:18:59,488 --> 02:19:01,488
Software development is sort of difficult.

2161
02:19:02,488 --> 02:19:07,488
But I have two completely – one of them is, though, the prediction market Oracle
Bitcoin high mine thing.

2162
02:19:08,488 --> 02:19:09,488
So I'll say that.

2163
02:19:10,488 --> 02:19:12,488
But I don't know when that's going to be done, but I'm working on restoring that.

2164
02:19:13,488 --> 02:19:15,488
That was something that I got – I had that working in 2015.

2165
02:19:15,488 --> 02:19:18,488
And then I was like, oh, now I have to connect it to Bitcoin.

2166
02:19:19,488 --> 02:19:21,488
And then that's how this whole saga began.

2167
02:19:22,488 --> 02:19:27,488
So those are some of the ones that I think would be big.

2168
02:19:28,488 --> 02:19:30,488
I mean, scale is a matter of life or death, I think.

2169
02:19:31,488 --> 02:19:41,488
And privacy, I kind of think, if you're in the blockchain world, you have taken a
step in the cypherpunk direction.

2170
02:19:42,488 --> 02:19:45,488
It would be very easy to just have Venmo do everything.

2171
02:19:49,488 --> 02:19:54,488
But that's – it's not – I think there's – you'll hit a bunch of roadblocks with
that.

2172
02:19:55,488 --> 02:20:03,488
Instead, we want to go the privacy user sovereignty direction that is much more
reliable for the long run to go.

2173
02:20:04,488 --> 02:20:07,488
So those are things, half of which have already been built.

2174
02:20:07,488 --> 02:20:14,488
The others, I hope – I think – I do believe that LayerTwo Labs is the company that I
run.

2175
02:20:15,488 --> 02:20:18,488
I do think that we are very productive.

2176
02:20:19,488 --> 02:20:23,488
Blockstream raised all this money to do the two-way bank in 2015.

2177
02:20:24,488 --> 02:20:27,488
Millions and millions of dollars, $21 million, then $55 million.

2178
02:20:28,488 --> 02:20:32,488
We just raised a little, $3 million, and I have some great people.

2179
02:20:32,488 --> 02:20:35,488
And, of course, my own heroic leadership.

2180
02:20:36,488 --> 02:20:37,488
No, I'm just kidding about that.

2181
02:20:38,488 --> 02:20:43,488
But what I mean is that we have produced a lot of great stuff, and we have produced
stuff and then reproduced it.

2182
02:20:44,488 --> 02:20:45,488
Like the CUSF, we redid that.

2183
02:20:46,488 --> 02:20:52,488
But it's much better and more likely to be used by Bitcoin and other L1s.

2184
02:20:53,488 --> 02:20:55,488
So we've shipped a lot of stuff.

2185
02:20:56,488 --> 02:20:58,488
So actually, my point is I think we'll have shipped these other two.

2186
02:20:58,488 --> 02:20:59,488
Oh, my God.

2187
02:21:00,488 --> 02:21:01,488
This is what I said I wouldn't say because it would curse everything.

2188
02:21:02,488 --> 02:21:03,488
I could find something to knock on or something.

2189
02:21:04,488 --> 02:21:09,488
But I think we'll ship these other two before Litecoin could plausibly agree to
activate.

2190
02:21:10,488 --> 02:21:17,488
Even if you speed-ran the whole thing in four weeks and said, we want to turn it on
immediately.

2191
02:21:18,488 --> 02:21:22,488
I still think we probably have one or two more of these cool chains.

2192
02:21:23,488 --> 02:21:26,488
Yeah, one of them lets you swap other coins.

2193
02:21:26,488 --> 02:21:33,488
I don't want to spoil all the stuff, and I don't want to describe it too much
because that'll curse the project.

2194
02:21:34,488 --> 02:21:37,488
But the point is I'm shipping more stuff now.

2195
02:21:38,488 --> 02:21:39,488
We had a bunch of stuff shipped before.

2196
02:21:40,488 --> 02:21:43,488
It ran on the pre-CUSF version of the software.

2197
02:21:44,488 --> 02:21:47,488
So we had a Zcash sidechain from like, whatever, 2021 or 2020.

2198
02:21:48,488 --> 02:21:49,488
I don't know, but a long time ago.

2199
02:21:50,488 --> 02:21:51,488
And so we had that.

2200
02:21:52,488 --> 02:21:53,488
That was ancient.

2201
02:21:54,488 --> 02:21:57,488
And now we have one that is more modern.

2202
02:21:58,488 --> 02:21:59,488
We probably have more.

2203
02:22:00,488 --> 02:22:01,488
So we're going to make some.

2204
02:22:02,488 --> 02:22:03,488
And I think this is the right L2.

2205
02:22:04,488 --> 02:22:05,488
This is the right style of L2.

2206
02:22:06,488 --> 02:22:10,488
The ones that don't pay, the miners, I don't think will work.

2207
02:22:11,488 --> 02:22:17,488
They seem to be much more complicated than the ARK Supernode or whatever.

2208
02:22:17,488 --> 02:22:21,488
People have a lot of trouble explaining in simple terms how that works.

2209
02:22:22,488 --> 02:22:24,488
A lot of people do not understand how Lightning works.

2210
02:22:25,488 --> 02:22:32,488
I've met many of the top people who think they understand how it works, and when I
talk to them, they clearly do not.

2211
02:22:33,488 --> 02:22:37,488
Or they have a serious misapprehension about how it works.

2212
02:22:38,488 --> 02:22:40,488
So this is much simpler.

2213
02:22:41,488 --> 02:22:44,488
This is actually just saying, this is Satoshi's blockchain idea.

2214
02:22:45,488 --> 02:22:46,488
This is Satoshi's merge mining idea.

2215
02:22:47,488 --> 02:22:49,488
The only new part is the deposit withdrawal.

2216
02:22:50,488 --> 02:22:55,488
So to answer your question, I know these answers are so long, it's so terrible.

2217
02:22:56,488 --> 02:23:01,488
But you can download our PlayMoney software right now and see what we already have.

2218
02:23:02,488 --> 02:23:03,488
You already get that on.

2219
02:23:04,488 --> 02:23:06,488
Privacy, scale, these other things.

2220
02:23:07,488 --> 02:23:08,488
And we're going to ship some more things.

2221
02:23:09,488 --> 02:23:10,488
So that's a good question.

2222
02:23:11,488 --> 02:23:12,488
And I have it down.

2223
02:23:13,488 --> 02:23:14,488
And we sort of talked about YouTube already.

2224
02:23:15,488 --> 02:23:16,488
Anybody can add content.

2225
02:23:17,488 --> 02:23:21,488
Of course, there's going to be various degrees of skin in the game, and risk, and
capital, and teams, and all this stuff.

2226
02:23:22,488 --> 02:23:26,488
But what is required to really, let's say I've got an idea, I want to launch a
Drivechain.

2227
02:23:27,488 --> 02:23:28,488
Lightning can now accommodate this.

2228
02:23:29,488 --> 02:23:30,488
How does that work?

2229
02:23:31,488 --> 02:23:33,488
Do you use just software which communicates to the miners?

2230
02:23:34,488 --> 02:23:35,488
It's automated?

2231
02:23:36,488 --> 02:23:38,488
Because I think they have some say in whether or not it should be even executed.

2232
02:23:39,488 --> 02:23:40,488
So how does that work?

2233
02:23:40,488 --> 02:23:49,488
Yeah, there's a network message on L1 that kind of gates whether or not you get the
slot or not.

2234
02:23:50,488 --> 02:23:54,488
And I program the software to just say no by default.

2235
02:23:55,488 --> 02:23:59,488
Which is smart, because otherwise the slots would just fill up.

2236
02:24:00,488 --> 02:24:04,488
So basically the miners have to agree to allow the slot.

2237
02:24:05,488 --> 02:24:08,488
They're kind of a little bit like someone who owns a mall, a shopping mall.

2238
02:24:08,488 --> 02:24:11,488
And then they lease the stores.

2239
02:24:12,488 --> 02:24:13,488
And we're talking about pools.

2240
02:24:14,488 --> 02:24:15,488
Yeah, correct.

2241
02:24:16,488 --> 02:24:19,488
So they're not getting any money if there's no slot.

2242
02:24:20,488 --> 02:24:28,488
So again, they would be very, I think, liberal with the slots.

2243
02:24:29,488 --> 02:24:35,488
But what actually would happen is first you would create the software.

2244
02:24:35,488 --> 02:24:42,488
So you'd have to, like, ideally you would fork an existing, you know, on GitHub with
the code.

2245
02:24:43,488 --> 02:24:47,488
You would take the code and then just add what you think should be changed.

2246
02:24:48,488 --> 02:24:56,488
If you can't, you know, if you think you have a difference of opinion with someone
or that it's just fundamentally a very different design.

2247
02:24:57,488 --> 02:24:59,488
So now you have your software.

2248
02:25:00,488 --> 02:25:09,488
And then you would make this argument to the miners that users, if you turn this on,
we will have fee-paying users over here.

2249
02:25:10,488 --> 02:25:14,488
So the Drivechains rely on – but again, to me this is a benefit.

2250
02:25:15,488 --> 02:25:19,488
But the Drivechain idea relies on there being users paying the fees.

2251
02:25:20,488 --> 02:25:28,488
Otherwise, you can certainly not guarantee that it would work because maybe you have
L2 Drivechain.

2252
02:25:29,488 --> 02:25:32,488
Someone puts 500 Bitcoin on there.

2253
02:25:33,488 --> 02:25:36,488
It generates zero fees, you know, for two or three years.

2254
02:25:37,488 --> 02:25:40,488
Well, then no one cares about keeping it around.

2255
02:25:41,488 --> 02:25:42,488
The miners would not care.

2256
02:25:43,488 --> 02:25:47,488
You know, maybe this would – the miners would take the coins in there or something.

2257
02:25:47,488 --> 02:25:55,488
I want to reemphasize, though, that miners don't just like take the coins like at 3
a.m. and they have to slowly get out over like three to six months.

2258
02:25:56,488 --> 02:25:58,488
And there's this hash gate and there's all this stuff happening.

2259
02:25:59,488 --> 02:26:09,488
But what I'm trying to say is that the – it does – the whole model is set up to work
if there are happy fee-paying users.

2260
02:26:10,488 --> 02:26:16,488
So if there are not, that would just be a sign to me that the software shouldn't
have been written.

2261
02:26:17,488 --> 02:26:18,488
And it's just – it shouldn't be – you know what I mean?

2262
02:26:19,488 --> 02:26:25,488
Like you have a shopping mall and then someone opens a store and they sell something
that no one wants.

2263
02:26:26,488 --> 02:26:28,488
They sell vultures or something.

2264
02:26:29,488 --> 02:26:30,488
I don't know.

2265
02:26:31,488 --> 02:26:32,488
They don't make any money.

2266
02:26:33,488 --> 02:26:34,488
It's like, well, we should kick them out then.

2267
02:26:35,488 --> 02:26:36,488
So, again, I like that part of it.

2268
02:26:37,488 --> 02:26:38,488
But other people will find that mystifying.

2269
02:26:39,488 --> 02:26:42,488
The market system says it would be allowed to operate.

2270
02:26:43,488 --> 02:26:44,488
In other words, you have 256 slots.

2271
02:26:45,488 --> 02:26:46,488
You're the first one here.

2272
02:26:46,488 --> 02:26:47,488
Sure, come on board.

2273
02:26:47,488 --> 02:26:48,488
Let's try it.

2274
02:26:48,488 --> 02:26:50,488
But if there's 500 people going for 256, it's going to help the ante.

2275
02:26:51,488 --> 02:26:58,488
You're going to have to – you know, it's going to auto-calculate the whole way to
prioritize the slots based on which one is functioning for the miners or not.

2276
02:26:59,488 --> 02:27:00,488
Right.

2277
02:27:00,488 --> 02:27:06,488
I think this is part of what is different, which is that, you know, there's no like
literal requirement that miners do anything.

2278
02:27:06,488 --> 02:27:08,488
Because, of course, they could just do nothing and you'd just be right where you are
now.

2279
02:27:09,488 --> 02:27:11,488
You could activate Drivechain but then just like never use it.

2280
02:27:12,488 --> 02:27:14,488
And that would be where you are now.

2281
02:27:15,488 --> 02:27:22,488
And it's not about, you know, violating the 84 million coin limit or these other
things.

2282
02:27:23,488 --> 02:27:24,488
But it is about pitching.

2283
02:27:25,488 --> 02:27:27,488
This is exactly what it would look like to have 8 billion users.

2284
02:27:28,488 --> 02:27:29,488
It would look kind of like this.

2285
02:27:30,488 --> 02:27:46,488
And the mining pools would maybe agree that, you know, you get 51% or you get a
critical amount to say, we're going to assign Thunder number 3 to slot 8 or
something.

2286
02:27:47,488 --> 02:27:51,488
As I said, there need to be 14 to hit 8 billion people.

2287
02:27:52,488 --> 02:28:01,488
And then the pools would do that and the miners would be watching the pools to say,
is the pool doing what's best for me?

2288
02:28:02,488 --> 02:28:08,488
The pool should be maximizing my return, my mining income.

2289
02:28:09,488 --> 02:28:10,488
Correct.

2290
02:28:10,488 --> 02:28:17,488
And so, in a weird way, oftentimes these hashers are the least informed.

2291
02:28:18,488 --> 02:28:20,488
They're specialists in getting cheap power and stuff.

2292
02:28:21,488 --> 02:28:23,488
So they don't even know a lot about what the pool is doing sometimes.

2293
02:28:24,488 --> 02:28:25,488
But then the pool could make their case.

2294
02:28:26,488 --> 02:28:31,488
They could say, we are signaling for this thing because we'll get more money.

2295
02:28:32,488 --> 02:28:34,488
And you should stop mining at this other pool.

2296
02:28:34,488 --> 02:28:43,488
Because what they're doing is they are just – they've grown complacent and lazy.

2297
02:28:44,488 --> 02:28:49,488
And they are saying that we don't need to do – there's no reason to do any of this.

2298
02:28:50,488 --> 02:28:56,488
But there is a reason because we'll make more money and it'll help increase
Litecoin's chances of taking over in a big way.

2299
02:28:57,488 --> 02:28:58,488
And we'll have more users.

2300
02:28:59,488 --> 02:29:00,488
We'll have a bigger network effect.

2301
02:29:01,488 --> 02:29:02,488
We'll have more recognizability.

2302
02:29:03,488 --> 02:29:04,488
We'll have more media coverage or whatever.

2303
02:29:05,488 --> 02:29:06,488
Because we have more people.

2304
02:29:07,488 --> 02:29:08,488
Because we're going to grow.

2305
02:29:09,488 --> 02:29:10,488
Because we need to grow.

2306
02:29:11,488 --> 02:29:12,488
Because you're either going to grow or you're going to die.

2307
02:29:13,488 --> 02:29:14,488
So then the mining pool could make their case.

2308
02:29:15,488 --> 02:29:16,488
And to me, all of this is perfectly desirable.

2309
02:29:17,488 --> 02:29:18,488
Because everyone is now accountable.

2310
02:29:19,488 --> 02:29:20,488
So everyone is saying – but this is what a lot of people don't like, I think.

2311
02:29:20,488 --> 02:29:26,488
But if the mining pool is saying, oh, now I'm going to have to decide what my
argument is going to be on different Drivechains.

2312
02:29:27,488 --> 02:29:28,488
And then they're going to think, oh, I don't like that.

2313
02:29:29,488 --> 02:29:34,488
But to me, the fact that someone wouldn't like that, that's because they are corrupt
and you'd be better off without them.

2314
02:29:35,488 --> 02:29:36,488
You've got to get rid of these people.

2315
02:29:37,488 --> 02:29:41,488
You're never going to make it unless you can pump out some of these people.

2316
02:29:42,488 --> 02:29:44,488
You need to get them out of the system.

2317
02:29:44,488 --> 02:29:50,488
Because this is a desirable thing to have more competition.

2318
02:29:51,488 --> 02:29:58,488
It's kind of like when you're in a new class and you have a pass-fail versus 100 to
0 on the test.

2319
02:29:59,488 --> 02:30:05,488
What's best for the students is to have the competition be very blocky.

2320
02:30:06,488 --> 02:30:07,488
Pass-fail is great.

2321
02:30:08,488 --> 02:30:09,488
Now everyone just has to put in just enough work.

2322
02:30:10,213 --> 02:30:19,213
Maybe the teacher won't even fail you, but now I'm saying, as a mining pool, you can
do even more to make money for your clients.

2323
02:30:19,213 --> 02:30:22,213
Well, then maybe they don't want to do that, because now they'd rather be lazy.

2324
02:30:22,213 --> 02:30:27,213
But this is the thing is, you've got to defeat the laziness and destroy it.

2325
02:30:27,213 --> 02:30:31,213
Otherwise, no one is going to make it anyway.

2326
02:30:32,213 --> 02:30:41,213
That's the only way to the top is to have a system where everyone can be rewarded
for their hard work in making it happen.

2327
02:30:41,213 --> 02:30:44,213
That's what we need. This is exactly what we want.

2328
02:30:44,213 --> 02:30:47,213
But that was a good question, though, about what exactly has to happen.

2329
02:30:47,213 --> 02:30:50,213
The pools would signal.

2330
02:30:50,213 --> 02:30:56,213
If enough hash rate has signaled they get the slot, then users can deposit to the
slot.

2331
02:30:57,213 --> 02:31:01,213
And the coins will show up over on the L2.

2332
02:31:01,213 --> 02:31:05,213
The L2 will wait patiently until it's assigned the slot.

2333
02:31:05,213 --> 02:31:08,213
Otherwise, you can't deposit any coins to it.

2334
02:31:08,213 --> 02:31:12,213
That would be a bad idea, because there would be no way of knowing.

2335
02:31:12,213 --> 02:31:15,213
Someone says the withdrawal should be this from the slot.

2336
02:31:15,213 --> 02:31:17,213
Someone says something else.

2337
02:31:17,213 --> 02:31:19,213
There'd be no way of even figuring out who.

2338
02:31:19,213 --> 02:31:22,213
Without the slot being assigned, there'll be no way of figuring out who.

2339
02:31:22,213 --> 02:31:27,213
Without the slot being assigned, there'll be no way of figuring out who you should
even listen to about that.

2340
02:31:27,213 --> 02:31:30,213
So that wouldn't work.

2341
02:31:30,213 --> 02:31:33,213
But that's basically how it would work.

2342
02:31:33,213 --> 02:31:41,213
And you have kind of a set of things you've already developed within your team that
could be picked up immediately.

2343
02:31:41,213 --> 02:31:43,213
Yeah, right. Exactly.

2344
02:31:43,213 --> 02:31:50,213
I even designed something called Bit Window that I'm actually very fond of, which is
a front end for L1.

2345
02:31:51,213 --> 02:31:53,213
So it's just an L1.

2346
02:31:53,213 --> 02:31:58,213
It doesn't do the L2s, but it's L1, and it has a tab for the sidechains.

2347
02:31:58,213 --> 02:32:02,213
But the reason I bring it up is because it has this idea that I came up with called
Coin News.

2348
02:32:02,213 --> 02:32:07,213
I invented it for exactly this reason you mentioned about, like, how do you get your
message out to the miners?

2349
02:32:07,213 --> 02:32:09,213
What if you're Satoshi? Rate L2.

2350
02:32:09,213 --> 02:32:19,213
So I was like, what you'll do is you finish your software, and you write your little
readme, you write your documentation.

2351
02:32:19,213 --> 02:32:23,213
You make your little website on the internet.

2352
02:32:23,213 --> 02:32:26,213
But now, how does anyone know about the website?

2353
02:32:26,213 --> 02:32:32,213
So I thought, what you do is you broadcast a transaction on L1 that has a
conspicuously high fee.

2354
02:32:32,213 --> 02:32:36,213
So today in Bitcoin, this would only be like $2.

2355
02:32:36,213 --> 02:32:42,213
This idea sort of became like an inscription type thing, but the Bit Window will
sort the messages.

2356
02:32:43,213 --> 02:32:52,213
If they pay a fee, an op return that pays, it will sort them based on the fee they
paid.

2357
02:32:52,213 --> 02:32:57,213
So all you have to do is beat whatever is in the window, and then you take over.

2358
02:32:57,213 --> 02:33:00,213
It's like you get your headline in the paper.

2359
02:33:00,213 --> 02:33:05,213
And sometimes the people testing our software have a great sense of humor.

2360
02:33:05,213 --> 02:33:11,213
Because, of course, we don't validate what's put there, so they put all kinds of
crazy stuff about weird jokes and other things.

2361
02:33:11,213 --> 02:33:12,213
But it's very funny.

2362
02:33:12,213 --> 02:33:14,213
And it's all play money.

2363
02:33:14,213 --> 02:33:15,213
It's all fake coins.

2364
02:33:15,213 --> 02:33:22,213
So it's not really doing a great job of – but, of course, in the real world, it
would be real money.

2365
02:33:22,213 --> 02:33:24,213
So you'd say, oh, I'll put my real money.

2366
02:33:24,213 --> 02:33:25,213
Now I can get my message out.

2367
02:33:25,213 --> 02:33:26,213
Everyone will get it.

2368
02:33:26,213 --> 02:33:33,213
So you say, oh, new sidechain URL, and then contact whatever.

2369
02:33:33,213 --> 02:33:36,213
And then on your website, you have your PGP key.

2370
02:33:36,213 --> 02:33:37,213
You have your email.

2371
02:33:37,213 --> 02:33:38,213
You have your whatever.

2372
02:33:38,213 --> 02:33:40,213
So then you have your link to the telegram.

2373
02:33:40,213 --> 02:33:42,213
You have your link tree or whatever.

2374
02:33:42,213 --> 02:33:48,213
So that was how you would break the news in theory in a totally decentralized way.

2375
02:33:48,213 --> 02:33:50,213
Because that would be the challenge, right?

2376
02:33:50,213 --> 02:33:51,213
You'd have to – how do I contact someone else?

2377
02:33:51,213 --> 02:33:53,213
I think in practice it wouldn't be that much.

2378
02:33:53,213 --> 02:34:00,213
I enjoy building that part of it, which I did on purpose for that – for the
Drivechain reason.

2379
02:34:00,213 --> 02:34:04,213
Even though I think that actually people will have a field day with Coin News and
have a lot of fun with it.

2380
02:34:05,213 --> 02:34:10,213
And I built – you can have little topics so that you can have Japanese news and
English news.

2381
02:34:10,213 --> 02:34:16,213
They won't interfere with each other because people can't read Japanese in the
United States.

2382
02:34:16,213 --> 02:34:23,213
But I think in practice, there would probably be like a community of L2 developers
and they're kind of like –

2383
02:34:23,213 --> 02:34:26,213
we'll probably – I'm not going to say they'll all know each other.

2384
02:34:26,213 --> 02:34:28,213
You could establish a new role in the community.

2385
02:34:28,213 --> 02:34:31,213
It's kind of like if you were going to make a new car company.

2386
02:34:31,213 --> 02:34:36,213
It's not like you would do that without poaching a bunch of people.

2387
02:34:36,213 --> 02:34:38,213
So probably people would know each other.

2388
02:34:38,213 --> 02:34:47,213
But in the hypothetical world where we enter the 1984 hellscape and they lay down
the suppression field across everything

2389
02:34:47,213 --> 02:34:53,213
and you can only communicate with code, usually by a blockchain message, then it
would still work with Coin News.

2390
02:34:55,213 --> 02:34:57,213
That's interesting. That's really interesting.

2391
02:34:58,213 --> 02:35:06,213
How do Drivechains align the economic incentives of Litecoin miners, developers, and
users?

2392
02:35:07,213 --> 02:35:09,213
Did we sort of cover it a little bit?

2393
02:35:09,213 --> 02:35:13,213
Like we want – developers are going to ship software that the users like.

2394
02:35:13,213 --> 02:35:21,213
When we say that the users like, it better increase the market price of Litecoin or
lead to transaction fees.

2395
02:35:21,213 --> 02:35:23,213
And I think that this is very tight.

2396
02:35:24,213 --> 02:35:27,213
This is very tightly defined, and I love the definition.

2397
02:35:27,213 --> 02:35:33,213
I think it's just perfect, and it's exactly what Satoshi wanted, I assume.

2398
02:35:34,213 --> 02:35:38,213
That's about keeping everything aligned.

2399
02:35:40,213 --> 02:35:46,213
The more people transact on the L2s, we have more happy users.

2400
02:35:47,213 --> 02:35:55,213
It's healthy for the developers also to have real feedback from the users in the
form of if they're paying transaction fees or not.

2401
02:35:55,213 --> 02:36:09,213
Because, again, in Bitcoin it's kind of a little like a hippie sort of – you make a
painting and then people say, ah, it's really good.

2402
02:36:10,213 --> 02:36:19,213
But that's different from – if you were to run a restaurant or a supermarket,
there's going to be a mixture of things.

2403
02:36:19,213 --> 02:36:24,213
Some parts of the job you're really going to like, but then other parts you're not
going to like at all.

2404
02:36:28,213 --> 02:36:37,213
But that's part of being a productive member of society is you either hire someone
to do these things that you don't like.

2405
02:36:39,213 --> 02:36:43,213
Because you've got to put the whole thing together in something that makes profits.

2406
02:36:44,213 --> 02:36:48,213
Otherwise, the supermarket is going to close down, or the restaurant is going to
close down.

2407
02:36:48,213 --> 02:36:52,213
Probably a restaurant is a better example because you can imagine someone really
enjoys cooking.

2408
02:36:52,213 --> 02:36:58,213
But maybe they also really enjoy going out on Friday and Saturday night.

2409
02:36:59,213 --> 02:37:01,213
So now – oh, a dilemma.

2410
02:37:01,213 --> 02:37:08,213
But what you could do is you could train the other chefs to cook the thing the way
you think it should be.

2411
02:37:10,213 --> 02:37:15,213
But you can see that – so the intrinsic motivation only gets people so far is what
I'm trying to say.

2412
02:37:15,213 --> 02:37:27,213
So if we have this north star of make more transaction fees, that would – hey, maybe
the miners – one thing that I always thought might happen down the road.

2413
02:37:28,213 --> 02:37:30,213
The miners might be making so much money.

2414
02:37:30,213 --> 02:37:37,213
If you think about how it scales eventually, where you can have a geometrically
increasing number of transaction fees.

2415
02:37:37,213 --> 02:37:43,213
And already the miners in Bitcoin have made huge amounts of money, much more than a
developer salary.

2416
02:37:44,213 --> 02:37:49,213
So you have your market rate, developer salaries fully loaded.

2417
02:37:49,213 --> 02:37:53,213
These can be from 100,000 to whatever, 400,000.

2418
02:37:53,213 --> 02:37:56,213
I don't know. I'm just making up – these are just made-up numbers here.

2419
02:37:56,213 --> 02:37:59,213
But you talk about bright young people versus experienced.

2420
02:37:59,213 --> 02:38:03,213
Some people can make obviously huge amounts of money in software development.

2421
02:38:03,213 --> 02:38:11,213
But what are the miners' profit margins and revenues?

2422
02:38:11,213 --> 02:38:16,213
And some of these numbers are just enormous, like huge amounts of money.

2423
02:38:16,213 --> 02:38:22,213
You can look on and see like what does Marathon have on its – how much cash they
have on their balance sheet.

2424
02:38:22,213 --> 02:38:24,213
It's like hundreds of millions of dollars.

2425
02:38:25,213 --> 02:38:36,213
So the miners might end up hiring software developers or project managers or
someone, again, to do the unnecessary unpleasant work.

2426
02:38:36,213 --> 02:38:43,213
So instead, we don't have a situation where each developer just does it for the
intrinsic motivation.

2427
02:38:43,213 --> 02:38:52,213
Because the intrinsic motivation is excellent, but it doesn't really get you as far
as something where you have an actual metric.

2428
02:38:53,213 --> 02:38:55,213
We used to say this is – we want to maximize this.

2429
02:38:55,213 --> 02:38:58,213
Maximize transaction fees. So that's the short answer.

2430
02:38:58,213 --> 02:39:03,213
Maximize transaction fees and just let that be the leading light.

2431
02:39:03,213 --> 02:39:06,213
Let that be the north star.

2432
02:39:06,213 --> 02:39:08,213
Where do you think the north star is now?

2433
02:39:08,213 --> 02:39:11,213
Ignore all these distractions.

2434
02:39:11,213 --> 02:39:18,213
I really – I hate to – I think people should always be open-minded and et cetera.

2435
02:39:18,213 --> 02:39:25,213
But oh my god, I really think Bitcoin has become – it's been distracted by these –
the number go up.

2436
02:39:25,213 --> 02:39:27,213
So that's the north star.

2437
02:39:27,213 --> 02:39:30,213
But it's in – we do it in a – we don't do it in a good way.

2438
02:39:30,213 --> 02:39:32,213
We don't do it in like a serious way.

2439
02:39:32,213 --> 02:39:38,213
We don't do it in this – like let's sit down and say how do we make the absolute
best software in the world?

2440
02:39:38,213 --> 02:39:40,213
How do we make the best money in the world?

2441
02:39:40,213 --> 02:39:42,213
What people instead do is they just say –

2442
02:39:42,213 --> 02:39:44,213
It's already the best.

2443
02:39:45,213 --> 02:39:48,213
We haven't changed it in a while, so let's not break it or whatever.

2444
02:39:48,213 --> 02:39:50,213
Yeah, if we change it, we might break it.

2445
02:39:50,213 --> 02:39:52,213
So then we'll lose everything.

2446
02:39:52,213 --> 02:39:54,213
If we change it, it's already a $2 trillion asset.

2447
02:39:54,213 --> 02:39:59,213
So we're going to destroy a $2 trillion asset if we change it.

2448
02:39:59,213 --> 02:40:01,213
So we don't really do it in a serious way.

2449
02:40:01,213 --> 02:40:08,213
We just – but it is important to – hey, marketing and recognizability, these are
important.

2450
02:40:08,213 --> 02:40:11,213
So I don't want to completely knock all that.

2451
02:40:11,213 --> 02:40:17,213
What I do want to knock is we've had a 10-year cultural slide into just these weird
derangements.

2452
02:40:17,213 --> 02:40:18,213
Gigantic, yeah.

2453
02:40:18,213 --> 02:40:22,213
And people have lost – people have basically slowly sacrificed their integrity.

2454
02:40:22,213 --> 02:40:33,213
One tiny little lie after another, and it has added up to just a very complacent
group of people who think, yeah, it's already perfect.

2455
02:40:33,213 --> 02:40:37,213
If we move anything, we'll break it or something.

2456
02:40:37,213 --> 02:40:48,213
And yet Drivechains – I've heard you say this, and I'm just going to echo that – is
actually Drivechains, if implemented, would actually allow core to ossify

2457
02:40:48,213 --> 02:40:53,213
because you're going to be playing around with everything else on a layer two.

2458
02:40:53,213 --> 02:40:58,213
The block size war or really like Bitcoin – if you think – like what is
ossification?

2459
02:40:58,213 --> 02:41:04,213
It's not how ossified is Bitcoin if Litecoin replaced Bitcoin and Bitcoin went to
zero.

2460
02:41:05,213 --> 02:41:07,213
How ossified is it then?

2461
02:41:07,213 --> 02:41:14,213
So people have a very, very naive view of ossification in terms of it's just saying,
well, we just won't change it.

2462
02:41:14,213 --> 02:41:16,213
You know what I mean?

2463
02:41:16,213 --> 02:41:18,213
But the world doesn't work that way.

2464
02:41:18,213 --> 02:41:22,213
I mean I hate to be the guy who says something like that, but the world doesn't work
that way at all.

2465
02:41:22,213 --> 02:41:33,213
I mean what if you just said – I mean like to take an extreme example but yet a
still fundamentally correct example would be to say that in a few billion years,

2466
02:41:33,213 --> 02:41:35,213
the sun is going to just obliterate this planet.

2467
02:41:35,213 --> 02:41:44,213
So if you say we're just not going to change anything, what you really are saying is
that all of – 100% of my descendants will be killed unnecessarily.

2468
02:41:44,213 --> 02:41:48,213
And then everything we've ever done will be erased from the universe.

2469
02:41:48,213 --> 02:41:56,213
Whereas instead we could become like a spacefaring civilization and conquer the
stars, which is our destiny and et cetera.

2470
02:41:56,213 --> 02:41:59,213
And of course people would still have – they still have this video.

2471
02:41:59,213 --> 02:42:04,213
They still have all the stuff on the internet that people could copy into a hard
drive or something.

2472
02:42:04,213 --> 02:42:10,213
So the reason I bring that up is not to make any kind of judgment about space
travel.

2473
02:42:10,213 --> 02:42:19,213
I'm just saying if you want to keep everything the same, you actually have to work
pretty hard because it's not that easy.

2474
02:42:19,213 --> 02:42:21,213
You can't stop aging.

2475
02:42:21,213 --> 02:42:24,213
You can't stop different business models coming in and out.

2476
02:42:24,213 --> 02:42:28,213
So this ossification thing is really, really, really, really poorly thought out.

2477
02:42:28,213 --> 02:42:38,213
And what it ends up meaning is nothing because the people who are pro-ossification,
they don't even realize that Bitcoin Core puts out a new version every six months.

2478
02:42:38,213 --> 02:42:45,213
And they do that because they like – this is the intrinsic motivation going in a
weird way where they do this refactoring and stuff.

2479
02:42:45,213 --> 02:42:49,213
So I wrote a whole article about this called Precedence Ossification.

2480
02:42:49,213 --> 02:42:58,213
It's a giant article that people can read all about how completely misguided this
idea is and how we have something much better that we used in the past.

2481
02:42:58,213 --> 02:43:04,213
And now everyone is just – people don't understand what we had in the past, which
was great.

2482
02:43:04,213 --> 02:43:12,213
And it still is great, which is this idea that the old node – if the nodes disagree,
the old node wins.

2483
02:43:12,213 --> 02:43:14,213
And that is all you need and that's perfect.

2484
02:43:14,213 --> 02:43:15,213
And that's what we have.

2485
02:43:15,213 --> 02:43:17,213
And that's what every blockchain has.

2486
02:43:17,213 --> 02:43:20,213
Bitcoin would also – everything that activates with SoftOrk has that.

2487
02:43:23,213 --> 02:43:24,213
Two scenarios.

2488
02:43:24,213 --> 02:43:25,213
Okay.

2489
02:43:25,213 --> 02:43:28,213
It's – I'm going to sound like a bear.

2490
02:43:28,213 --> 02:43:30,213
You talked about activating this in four weeks.

2491
02:43:30,213 --> 02:43:37,213
I'm going to say it's 2027, giving us way too much time to consider this idea that's
already been on the table for a while.

2492
02:43:37,213 --> 02:43:39,213
And Litecoin is running Drivechains.

2493
02:43:39,213 --> 02:43:40,213
It's on.

2494
02:43:41,213 --> 02:43:45,213
How do you see this impacting Litecoin and altcoins and even Bitcoin?

2495
02:43:46,213 --> 02:43:53,213
Drivechain – the idea of Drivechain was that it was the sidechain idea from
Blockstream.

2496
02:43:53,213 --> 02:43:57,213
And this is what Brian Armstrong had his tweet about, about Bitcoin is too far
ahead.

2497
02:43:57,213 --> 02:43:59,213
We don't need altcoins.

2498
02:43:59,213 --> 02:44:10,213
We just need a tech stack on Bitcoin that works and no one should do anything else
because we should all just be united on this one thing.

2499
02:44:10,213 --> 02:44:21,213
So, I didn't – the idea of Drivechain is that it would make all of it – you'd only
have one L1 that you would need and everything else – you wouldn't need another
coin.

2500
02:44:21,213 --> 02:44:24,213
You would just have them as optional L2s.

2501
02:44:24,213 --> 02:44:26,213
So, you wouldn't need – you'd still have all this innovation.

2502
02:44:28,213 --> 02:44:35,213
You would still have privacy coin, but it would be the privacy L2 unlike coin.

2503
02:44:35,213 --> 02:44:38,213
And even ideally, there would be maybe two or three of them.

2504
02:44:38,213 --> 02:44:41,213
And ideally, they would all hate each other and have a rivalry.

2505
02:44:41,213 --> 02:44:47,213
They would be like Crest versus Colgate or they would be like whatever, Honda and
Ford or whatever.

2506
02:44:47,213 --> 02:44:57,213
So, that is what I was thinking is that would help the one single coin dominate and
take over.

2507
02:44:57,213 --> 02:44:59,213
Who knows what will happen?

2508
02:44:59,213 --> 02:45:02,213
This industry is so bizarre and unpredictable and everything.

2509
02:45:03,213 --> 02:45:14,213
I do think it's possible that – so, already the Darknet markets were an original
Bitcoin user that we have lost to Monero.

2510
02:45:14,213 --> 02:45:22,213
And regular payments – I know on BitRefill, we've already lost Litecoin.

2511
02:45:22,213 --> 02:45:26,213
Bitcoin has already lost to Litecoin on just payments on BitRefill.

2512
02:45:26,213 --> 02:45:31,213
At least the last time I checked, which was like a few years ago, but there was a –
the trend was terrible.

2513
02:45:31,213 --> 02:45:33,213
So, I just assume it's the same.

2514
02:45:35,213 --> 02:45:40,213
And so, we have already lost various – we've already lost customers basically.

2515
02:45:40,213 --> 02:45:42,213
So, the precedent is already there.

2516
02:45:43,213 --> 02:46:02,213
I think it's impossible to forecast what will happen to Litecoin without also
forecasting like what will happen to like Bitcoin and even like other world events
like what Trump's crypto policy will be.

2517
02:46:03,213 --> 02:46:10,213
Or if he – something rubs in the wrong way and he declares war on crypto.

2518
02:46:10,213 --> 02:46:13,213
Or if he – I don't know.

2519
02:46:13,213 --> 02:46:16,213
So, you kind of have to predict the whole thing.

2520
02:46:16,213 --> 02:46:21,213
And I would say that I really had to wrap my head around it.

2521
02:46:21,213 --> 02:46:36,213
The big variable will be if Bitcoin does this reformation basically and says, we
need to focus on the details.

2522
02:46:36,213 --> 02:46:41,213
Like we need to focus on the 8 billion users and we need to focus – what does that –
we need to take that seriously.

2523
02:46:41,213 --> 02:46:42,213
What does it look like?

2524
02:46:42,213 --> 02:46:44,213
We can either do that, which will be very difficult.

2525
02:46:44,213 --> 02:46:50,213
Or we can continue to keep it very vague and just say Bitcoin is hope, right?

2526
02:46:50,213 --> 02:46:54,213
And just say whatever and just a number go up.

2527
02:46:54,213 --> 02:46:59,213
And yeah, I don't know.

2528
02:46:59,213 --> 02:47:02,213
So, I think everything kind of hinges on that in my opinion.

2529
02:47:02,213 --> 02:47:10,213
I think the – if – the Overton window is pretty important.

2530
02:47:10,213 --> 02:47:26,213
If you could somehow like plant a flag in the ground and say like we are serious
about growing to 8 billion people because to us it's – we understand correctly that
it is a matter of life or death.

2531
02:47:26,213 --> 02:47:28,213
So, that is what we're going to do.

2532
02:47:29,213 --> 02:47:32,213
And everyone join us now even if you didn't join us in the past.

2533
02:47:32,213 --> 02:47:33,213
Join us now.

2534
02:47:33,213 --> 02:47:47,213
Anyone who can pull that off will – would pose I think a serious threat to Bitcoin
in particular because a lot of people in Bitcoin feel that way.

2535
02:47:48,213 --> 02:47:55,213
So, if they – if you could peel them off, then Bitcoin would just be left to the
crazies.

2536
02:47:55,213 --> 02:48:06,213
And it would just hasten the – you know, these purity tests and whatever, this death
spiral, the toxicity death spiral.

2537
02:48:06,213 --> 02:48:10,213
So, I think that would be – those are the things to watch.

2538
02:48:10,213 --> 02:48:15,213
So, yeah, other than that, it's a really hard question to answer, isn't it?

2539
02:48:15,213 --> 02:48:16,213
I think so.

2540
02:48:16,213 --> 02:48:17,213
Fair enough.

2541
02:48:17,213 --> 02:48:21,213
Can we move on to some community questions and then we can land the plane?

2542
02:48:21,213 --> 02:48:26,213
You've already broke our episode I think for the world record at two hours and 48
minutes.

2543
02:48:26,213 --> 02:48:30,213
You may have been the most spoken podcaster in Bitcoin.

2544
02:48:30,213 --> 02:48:31,213
I don't know.

2545
02:48:31,213 --> 02:48:33,213
I'm getting the – I'm getting the vibe.

2546
02:48:33,213 --> 02:48:34,213
Oh, yeah.

2547
02:48:34,213 --> 02:48:35,213
I think so.

2548
02:48:35,213 --> 02:48:37,213
In terms of time spent.

2549
02:48:37,213 --> 02:48:44,213
I mean I think you did 8 or 10 or something with Vlad and you've been on Peter
McCormick when he was doing it.

2550
02:48:44,213 --> 02:48:48,213
You've spoken quite a few words over the years.

2551
02:48:48,213 --> 02:48:51,213
And you are recording it though, right?

2552
02:48:51,213 --> 02:48:52,213
Yes, I am.

2553
02:48:52,213 --> 02:48:55,213
Because we took that one break.

2554
02:48:55,213 --> 02:48:57,213
Seems like a good idea to bring that up.

2555
02:48:57,213 --> 02:48:58,213
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2556
02:48:58,213 --> 02:48:59,213
But either way, we're good.

2557
02:48:59,213 --> 02:49:03,213
I'm just making sure we're not fatigued and we can finish with a few more questions.

2558
02:49:03,213 --> 02:49:04,213
Okay.

2559
02:49:04,213 --> 02:49:06,213
All right.

2560
02:49:06,213 --> 02:49:07,213
So, let's see.

2561
02:49:07,213 --> 02:49:10,213
What testing – and I'm not going to read this who submitted these.

2562
02:49:10,213 --> 02:49:14,213
But what testing has been done on BTC Signet?

2563
02:49:14,213 --> 02:49:16,213
What issues have been found?

2564
02:49:16,213 --> 02:49:18,213
And how are they fixed?

2565
02:49:18,213 --> 02:49:21,213
Well, the Signet is fake money.

2566
02:49:21,213 --> 02:49:23,213
So, this is a good first test.

2567
02:49:23,213 --> 02:49:25,213
The CUSF thing is new.

2568
02:49:25,213 --> 02:49:30,213
It's not like the old – we had an old version from like 2017, but it was not
rebased.

2569
02:49:30,213 --> 02:49:35,213
And I kind of explained if you rebase, then you kind of have to keep doing it.

2570
02:49:35,213 --> 02:49:37,213
So, the CUSF thing is new.

2571
02:49:37,213 --> 02:49:40,213
I don't think – yeah.

2572
02:49:40,213 --> 02:49:50,213
It is possible to find like the – so, let me – an example of a bug would be like –

2573
02:49:50,213 --> 02:49:55,213
I think – it's hard to say what qualifies as like a bug or not.

2574
02:49:55,213 --> 02:50:01,213
But there was various optimizations without which software would maybe take too long
to run.

2575
02:50:01,213 --> 02:50:05,213
So, we let it run and accumulate blocks.

2576
02:50:05,213 --> 02:50:08,213
The easy way out would be to just keep resetting the network.

2577
02:50:08,213 --> 02:50:11,213
But I think we've gone a long time without resetting it.

2578
02:50:11,213 --> 02:50:16,213
And we now have something like 200,000 L1 blocks because we do them every 60
seconds.

2579
02:50:16,213 --> 02:50:20,213
We do them more quickly because we started zero, first of all.

2580
02:50:20,213 --> 02:50:23,213
And it is a better user experience.

2581
02:50:23,213 --> 02:50:26,213
And this is not the intended – this is a test world.

2582
02:50:26,213 --> 02:50:28,213
So, you can shorten it even.

2583
02:50:28,213 --> 02:50:31,213
So, on our SIGNET, we have 60 second blocks.

2584
02:50:31,213 --> 02:50:33,213
And we have something like 200,000.

2585
02:50:33,213 --> 02:50:35,213
I mean I could go to – I think node.drivechain.info.

2586
02:50:35,213 --> 02:50:37,213
I had like a public mirror.

2587
02:50:37,213 --> 02:50:40,213
Anyone can check it out how many we actually have.

2588
02:50:40,213 --> 02:50:48,213
But eventually, as the blocks – the blockchain got longer, we had to optimize a few
things here in batch.

2589
02:50:48,213 --> 02:50:57,213
Sending over like the headers, and we do them in groups of 2,000, which is similar
to what Bitcoin Core does.

2590
02:50:58,213 --> 02:51:06,213
So, like for the enforcer, the BIP300 enforcer, we implemented that as well.

2591
02:51:06,213 --> 02:51:13,213
I think you can – if anyone really wants to know about these details, you can go –
it's like a public repository on GitHub.

2592
02:51:13,213 --> 02:51:15,213
So, you can just go to the LayerTwoLabs.com.

2593
02:51:15,213 --> 02:51:16,213
Excuse me.

2594
02:51:16,213 --> 02:51:20,213
Go to github.com slash LayerTwo Labs.

2595
02:51:20,213 --> 02:51:22,213
And then you can see all the commits.

2596
02:51:22,213 --> 02:51:25,213
And you can see the pull requests.

2597
02:51:25,213 --> 02:51:26,213
You can see all the details.

2598
02:51:26,213 --> 02:51:30,213
You can see how the sausage is made, if you want.

2599
02:51:30,213 --> 02:51:34,213
It's probably a more productive way than trying to ramble out the answer.

2600
02:51:34,213 --> 02:51:39,213
It's a question of like a bug that people would understand, and I don't know.

2601
02:51:39,213 --> 02:51:40,213
Sure.

2602
02:51:40,213 --> 02:51:42,213
And I can look that in the show notes too.

2603
02:51:42,213 --> 02:51:43,213
Yeah, that's good.

2604
02:51:43,213 --> 02:51:48,213
How many devs are at layer 2, and who is funding your efforts?

2605
02:51:48,213 --> 02:51:53,213
Well, we raised some money in the end of 2022.

2606
02:51:54,213 --> 02:52:00,213
Mostly, really exclusively, this was people that I had known for a long time.

2607
02:52:00,213 --> 02:52:06,213
And they were like Bitcoin OG type people, so we did not take any VC money.

2608
02:52:06,213 --> 02:52:10,213
Although, I mean, I probably would have, but that's not the point.

2609
02:52:10,213 --> 02:52:15,213
The point is we had like a very difficult thing to explain, and so only a few people
would even have understood it anyway.

2610
02:52:15,213 --> 02:52:26,213
These are mostly people who also were becoming skeptical of Lightning by that year,
2022.

2611
02:52:26,213 --> 02:52:29,213
That was like December 2022.

2612
02:52:29,213 --> 02:52:36,213
How many devs work there?

2613
02:52:36,213 --> 02:52:38,213
I'd say maybe eight.

2614
02:52:38,213 --> 02:52:41,213
I hope I didn't forget anyone.

2615
02:52:41,213 --> 02:52:42,213
Yeah, actually, you can go.

2616
02:52:42,213 --> 02:52:43,213
We have a team page now.

2617
02:52:43,213 --> 02:52:44,213
We didn't have one for a long time.

2618
02:52:44,213 --> 02:52:50,213
I don't know why, but on LayerTwoLabs.com, we have the team page now, so you can see
that.

2619
02:52:50,213 --> 02:52:52,213
We have some.

2620
02:52:52,213 --> 02:52:54,213
Some are really, really good.

2621
02:52:54,213 --> 02:53:07,213
One person, my co-founder, was a Bitcoin Core developer and contributed to Bitcoin
Core, I think, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16, something like that.

2622
02:53:08,213 --> 02:53:18,213
Those were the versions of Bitcoin from like the year 2015 to 2016, so he's great.

2623
02:53:18,213 --> 02:53:20,213
You got some OGs, yeah.

2624
02:53:20,213 --> 02:53:22,213
We got a few.

2625
02:53:22,213 --> 02:53:26,213
How would Drivechains impact Litecoin's narrative?

2626
02:53:26,213 --> 02:53:31,213
Would it be more than or expand upon the idea of it's just digital silver?

2627
02:53:32,213 --> 02:53:53,213
I think the digital silver thing, I've never bought that narrative, just as a little
bit of feedback as a potential narrative consumer, because the idea of silver was
that it was 16 times more prevalent than gold, and so sometimes a gold coin was
worth too much.

2628
02:53:53,213 --> 02:53:55,213
Gold is too rare.

2629
02:53:56,213 --> 02:54:05,213
But in a world where it's digital accounting and you have Arabic numerals and the
computer is subtracting and everything is divisible to eight decimal points, and so
I don't know.

2630
02:54:05,213 --> 02:54:20,213
The silver – I think the narrative for Litecoin that I always bought was something
like, if anything bad happens to Bitcoin, there's another thing here, which even
that narrative, I was not very convinced by.

2631
02:54:20,213 --> 02:54:25,213
But now I've experienced firsthand all these random deranging things in Bitcoin.

2632
02:54:25,213 --> 02:54:35,213
So now I see the narrative in a new light, and now I think, oh man, that is the
narrative and that is the truth.

2633
02:54:35,213 --> 02:54:41,213
I would say that people are hungry for an alternative.

2634
02:54:42,213 --> 02:54:55,213
Not so much – I think part of what made Ethereum big was that it was just the
opposition party.

2635
02:54:55,213 --> 02:55:03,213
So we have the one party – a democracy with one party does not – that doesn't work.

2636
02:55:03,213 --> 02:55:04,213
We don't want that.

2637
02:55:04,213 --> 02:55:09,213
And like whatever, no offense to China and Russia and these other places that have –

2638
02:55:09,768 --> 02:55:16,768
the Vladimir Putin party won every time. It's like, okay. And Mexico also had this –
they had the – I think it was called PRI or something.

2639
02:55:16,768 --> 02:55:32,768
This one party won for like 85 years or something. I'm not exactly sure, but a long
time. The other party finally won, and then it was revealed unbelievable amounts of
corruption had taken place, and they're in league with the cartels.

2640
02:55:32,768 --> 02:55:44,768
I love the people of Mexico, of course, but don't send the cartel people. But this
is like – the one party democracy doesn't work.

2641
02:55:44,768 --> 02:56:00,768
So you have Bitcoin and then finally people – I think Ethereum was – people were
searching for – in the year 2014, 2015, people were kind of hungry for, okay, what's
the plan B of this Bitcoin thing?

2642
02:56:00,768 --> 02:56:09,768
So I think that's like a really good thing to go and just say we're going to retake
the opposition party from Ethereum because Ethereum is this weird science project.

2643
02:56:09,768 --> 02:56:18,768
We're going to copy the EVM, the EVM sidechain, and we're going to be pursuing real
transactions with real users.

2644
02:56:19,768 --> 02:56:26,768
So I don't know. But I'm not – I don't pretend to be an expert in narratives,
unfortunately. I can't – I don't think I can help anyone with that.

2645
02:56:26,768 --> 02:56:35,768
But I do think that this – I'll tell you, the silver to Bitcoin's gold, I never
really bought it. I was like, I know that this is the thing you're supposed to say
if you are a Litecoiner.

2646
02:56:35,768 --> 02:56:46,768
But it's kind of like MBTC or SATs. SATs are the silver. SATs are the silver to
Bitcoin's gold, so not Litecoin. Litecoin is a different thing.

2647
02:56:46,768 --> 02:56:54,768
That's what Vitalik, I remember, said in one of his interviews about how MBTC was
the silver to Bitcoin's gold, something like that.

2648
02:56:54,768 --> 02:56:59,768
I think Eric Voorhees, he said that also or something. I don't know if that's true,
but I think so.

2649
02:57:01,768 --> 02:57:14,768
Here's another one. I think this is our last one. In one interview, you mentioned
about the block time of Litecoin being a lie on the Bitcoin 10-minute block. Do you
still think Litecoin is a lie?

2650
02:57:14,768 --> 02:57:25,768
I think I tried to explain it. I gave you a long, rambling answer about how the
difference between 2.5 minutes and 10 minutes is not significant in the sense that
it either has to be instant or it won't matter.

2651
02:57:26,768 --> 02:57:36,768
The real point of comparison is the 30-day chargeback or something. That's like,
will you end up losing your money?

2652
02:57:37,768 --> 02:57:53,768
We already discussed about the zero-conf. It's either going to be instant or 60
seconds or 30 days. These are the only bins.

2653
02:57:53,768 --> 02:58:07,768
Bitcoin and Litecoin are both fast within 30 days. For one confirmation, they're
both slower than one minute.

2654
02:58:08,768 --> 02:58:19,768
To get instant, it's possible to obtain the instant transaction using these other
techniques.

2655
02:58:20,768 --> 02:58:37,768
Sometimes online, messages are not received in the same spirit that they're given,
one of the many drawbacks of online communication.

2656
02:58:38,768 --> 02:58:50,768
It's true that I would not – again, the idea of Drivechain would be that Bitcoin
would render Litecoin unnecessary and Monero unnecessary.

2657
02:58:51,768 --> 02:59:00,768
That's the idea, but they are not going for it quickly enough and they're not going
for anything quickly enough.

2658
02:59:01,768 --> 02:59:14,768
Even this letter about the CTV checksick from Stack. It's not the quality of the
soft fork, which I've already tried to explain is irrelevant anyway because they're
all opt-in and ignorable, but whatever.

2659
02:59:15,768 --> 02:59:26,768
No one wants a low-quality thing on this. It's become a bureaucracy and they can't
do anything and everyone's complacent, so there's no pressure.

2660
02:59:27,768 --> 02:59:40,768
The miners have abdicated their role just to make more money. They are very slowly
getting into the idea of we need more transaction fees, but they really don't have
the teeth.

2661
02:59:41,768 --> 02:59:47,768
A lot of people mine, even big miners, they mine at Foundry because it's a SOC
report.

2662
02:59:48,768 --> 02:59:53,768
These are irrelevant reasons in the long run, so everyone's kind of trapped in
there.

2663
02:59:54,768 --> 03:00:03,768
It really is the idea that we've all made a lot of money and this is a $2 trillion
asset and we don't want to break it.

2664
03:00:04,768 --> 03:00:15,768
Again, with the bidder comes the sweet, so you have the network effect, you're the
champion, you get all the attention, and yet it comes with all this paralyzing fear.

2665
03:00:16,768 --> 03:00:27,768
That's the game, I think. Will the fear win? Will the network effects win? The
biggest will win. Just get bigger and just win.

2666
03:00:28,768 --> 03:00:43,768
Or will a groupthink and cult-like delusion win, which is also a very powerful
force. These are two of the most powerful forces that there are.

2667
03:00:44,768 --> 03:00:57,768
Beyond this, I'll just repeat, the concept of Drivechains is possible for Litecoin.
It has to be community-driven, of course, adopted by miners.

2668
03:00:58,768 --> 03:01:05,768
Then again, the CUSF, not necessarily so. Actually, no. The CUSF still does require
miners.

2669
03:01:06,768 --> 03:01:07,768
It does. It does require 51%.

2670
03:01:07,768 --> 03:01:14,768
But it doesn't require core to be changed. It doesn't require the developers of
Litecoin full node software.

2671
03:01:15,768 --> 03:01:20,768
We really do want something where everyone in the community understands why this is
happening.

2672
03:01:21,768 --> 03:01:25,768
Correct. If we don't have that, you won't really get the users. It's kind of like,
what's the point?

2673
03:01:26,768 --> 03:01:30,768
It shouldn't be a hidden feature. I think it should be a feature that people want
and it's used immediately.

2674
03:01:31,768 --> 03:01:36,768
This is just a call to action to discover what Paul has been doing and what he's
been working on.

2675
03:01:37,768 --> 03:01:41,768
I'm going to link all of the websites later to his Litecoin talk last year, etc.

2676
03:01:42,768 --> 03:01:45,768
After the show, if you want to send me anything, I'd be glad to plug it in.

2677
03:01:46,768 --> 03:01:54,768
Do research this. I think it's a really important topic. It's challenging to my
views as well.

2678
03:01:54,768 --> 03:01:58,768
I think it's important. I appreciate you being here.

2679
03:01:59,768 --> 03:02:04,768
Before I close it down and say thank you, you're a very smart guy and I appreciate
all the time you spent with us.

2680
03:02:05,768 --> 03:02:10,768
Is there anything you wanted to leave us with tonight or anything you wanted to say
to our listeners?

2681
03:02:11,768 --> 03:02:16,768
Thanks for your interest in what I'm working on.

2682
03:02:17,768 --> 03:02:24,768
I do think we want a world where the best ideas make it out.

2683
03:02:25,768 --> 03:02:29,768
Unfortunately, network effects are kind of a prison for that sometimes.

2684
03:02:30,768 --> 03:02:38,768
You can imagine if Bitcoin were number one and then people didn't want to change it,
there would be no hope for altcoin.

2685
03:02:39,768 --> 03:02:40,768
I'm not sure if that's true.

2686
03:02:41,768 --> 03:02:45,768
I've been working on this project. I'm just very happy to be a Bitcoiner.

2687
03:02:46,768 --> 03:02:54,768
Bitcoin has been great to me, but I really like having the good ideas be a success.

2688
03:02:55,768 --> 03:03:01,768
That is the number one priority and that's the only thing that will survive in the
long run.

2689
03:03:02,768 --> 03:03:09,768
What I meant by saying that I'm just very happy to be a Bitcoiner, I mean this has
been such a fun ride overall.

2690
03:03:10,768 --> 03:03:13,768
So it's been crazy and a lot of fun.

2691
03:03:14,768 --> 03:03:24,768
But if Lycon were to take this idea and really appreciate it, I think that would be
a great compliment to me in a way.

2692
03:03:25,768 --> 03:03:28,768
But yeah, you shouldn't do it for that reason. You should look into it.

2693
03:03:28,768 --> 03:03:31,768
And I have all these arguments about it. I have many, many arguments about it.

2694
03:03:32,768 --> 03:03:40,768
The non-mined L2s are not going to work. Lightning is not really working out in
Bitcoin and it has become an excuse.

2695
03:03:41,768 --> 03:03:47,768
And it has become a kind of refuge of people when they don't have the answer for 8
billion people.

2696
03:03:48,768 --> 03:03:52,768
They just say Litecoin will do it and then they say, oh, Covenants will improve.

2697
03:03:53,768 --> 03:03:55,768
So we've got to break up this group thing somehow.

2698
03:03:55,768 --> 03:04:00,768
It's bad for Bitcoin. It's bad for everyone. It's bad for Bitcoin's competitors.

2699
03:04:01,768 --> 03:04:06,768
It's bad for just everything. It's just not good. We can't have this.

2700
03:04:07,768 --> 03:04:12,768
So I think we need more healthy competition with Bitcoin actually.

2701
03:04:13,768 --> 03:04:21,768
So I think that thank you people of Litecoin for doing your part to help make that
happen and we want even healthier competition.

2702
03:04:22,768 --> 03:04:29,768
I was really disappointed. One final thought is when Bitcoin Cash came around, I
kind of thought,

2703
03:04:30,768 --> 03:04:41,768
oh, maybe we'll have two coins and there will be a big competitive force on each

2704
03:04:42,768 --> 03:04:47,768
and they will become maybe slightly different from each other, but they will keep
each other in line.

2705
03:04:48,768 --> 03:04:54,768
I really didn't have that at all. Bitcoin Cash had not a great idea and not a great
execution.

2706
03:04:55,768 --> 03:05:01,768
I don't want to be too critical, but basically the idea sucked.

2707
03:05:02,768 --> 03:05:05,768
The idea of L1 large blocks is not a good idea for a variety of reasons,

2708
03:05:06,768 --> 03:05:13,768
but one reason is you can put the optional large block on a small L1 block, but you
can't do the reverse.

2709
03:05:13,768 --> 03:05:20,768
So it was a bad idea. Eight megabytes was not enough to scale to eight billion
people anyway,

2710
03:05:21,768 --> 03:05:27,768
so there was only an 8x improvement and the timing was terrible and trying to take
the name and use Bitcoin.com

2711
03:05:28,768 --> 03:05:31,768
and say Bitcoin Cash is a real Bitcoin and all that was confusing and off-putting to
people.

2712
03:05:32,768 --> 03:05:33,768
Yeah, it was.

2713
03:05:34,768 --> 03:05:40,768
So that wasn't good and what happened was Bitcoin Cash went down in flames

2714
03:05:40,768 --> 03:05:43,768
and then everyone thought, oh, Bitcoin has no competitors.

2715
03:05:44,768 --> 03:05:49,768
And they thought, look what happened to the last competitor. It was terrible.

2716
03:05:50,768 --> 03:05:56,768
So, and as a result, this has created all this complacency, I think, part of it
anyway.

2717
03:05:57,768 --> 03:06:05,768
And so we want, I would prefer it if we had someone, you know, nipping at the heels

2718
03:06:05,768 --> 03:06:12,768
or even better, like a real rival, like a real whatever, I don't know, I don't know
about metaphor,

2719
03:06:13,768 --> 03:06:16,768
I could possibly go Goku and Vegeta or something, you know, whatever.

2720
03:06:17,768 --> 03:06:20,768
We like that one, yeah. We like Goku and Vegeta.

2721
03:06:21,768 --> 03:06:25,768
Yeah, so that's what's best for everyone. You don't want to live in a world where,

2722
03:06:26,768 --> 03:06:31,768
even if you were deciding for like, you know, your son or something, you know, a
child,

2723
03:06:32,768 --> 03:06:38,768
the best thing is for them to have some rival, you know, to keep them focused.

2724
03:06:39,768 --> 03:06:42,768
You don't want them to just be competing on the wrong things.

2725
03:06:43,768 --> 03:06:45,768
We want people to compete on the right things.

2726
03:06:46,768 --> 03:06:52,768
So I realize these answers have been very rambling, but just trying to convey this.

2727
03:06:53,768 --> 03:07:00,768
This is a very important idea to me that the competition keeps everything on the up
and up.

2728
03:07:01,768 --> 03:07:07,768
And I have witnessed firsthand this incredible derangement in Bitcoin because of the
lack of competition

2729
03:07:08,768 --> 03:07:11,768
and everything has formed a monopolist guild and it's not good.

2730
03:07:12,768 --> 03:07:21,768
And this is exactly why I think the central banking and the existing banking
industry became so,

2731
03:07:22,768 --> 03:07:26,768
you know, unable to meet the needs of its users.

2732
03:07:26,768 --> 03:07:31,768
Because there's no, who's going to, who can compete with the United States Federal
Reserve?

2733
03:07:32,768 --> 03:07:36,768
Like basically no one. So it's not, it doesn't improve as much.

2734
03:07:37,768 --> 03:07:39,768
And that's just not a, it's not a good way to be.

2735
03:07:40,768 --> 03:07:43,768
But they're all federated. They're federated, right?

2736
03:07:44,768 --> 03:07:45,768
Yeah.

2737
03:07:46,768 --> 03:07:49,768
They've got a few branches. Yeah. I appreciate your time, Paul.

2738
03:07:50,768 --> 03:07:53,768
I feel that we could go beyond this and there's so much you have to say.

2739
03:07:53,768 --> 03:07:56,768
And, but we're going to call it a day at this one.

2740
03:07:57,768 --> 03:08:00,768
I appreciate your contributions again for your time here tonight, your
thoughtfulness.

2741
03:08:01,768 --> 03:08:03,768
Where can people find you?

2742
03:08:04,768 --> 03:08:11,768
Well, yeah, I'm on, I'm on Twitter at Truthcoin, T-R-U-T-H-C-O-I-N.

2743
03:08:12,768 --> 03:08:18,768
And I'm on a telegram at, we have a group, a Drivechain group called DC Insiders.

2744
03:08:18,768 --> 03:08:21,768
It's a joke. T-E-DOT-ME-SLASH-DC-INSIDERS.

2745
03:08:22,768 --> 03:08:26,768
And you can join on telegram and come hang out there.

2746
03:08:28,768 --> 03:08:30,768
And it's drivechain.info, correct?

2747
03:08:31,768 --> 03:08:32,768
drivechain.info. That's right.

2748
03:08:33,768 --> 03:08:34,768
Okay. Very good.

2749
03:08:35,768 --> 03:08:36,768
Yeah. There's a lot of information. There's a YouTube playlist there.

2750
03:08:37,768 --> 03:08:40,768
There's tons of slides and talks and other things.

2751
03:08:41,768 --> 03:08:42,768
Oh, very cool.

2752
03:08:43,768 --> 03:08:45,768
I appreciate having a Bitcoiner on a Litecoin podcast.

2753
03:08:45,768 --> 03:08:49,768
Before, we've only had Charlie Lee and Vlad Kostya.

2754
03:08:50,768 --> 03:08:51,768
So we're going to add Paul Sztorc to the list.

2755
03:08:52,768 --> 03:08:53,768
If you've made it this far, congratulations.

2756
03:08:54,768 --> 03:08:55,768
We're with you. We're sitting here right in front of you.

2757
03:08:56,768 --> 03:08:58,768
So anyway, with that, thank you to all of our listeners.

2758
03:08:59,768 --> 03:09:00,768
Thanks for tuning in today.

2759
03:09:01,768 --> 03:09:04,768
Of course, you can find this episode and all other episodes at 84million.com slash
podcast.

2760
03:09:05,768 --> 03:09:08,768
You can find us on X YouTube and wherever you stream your podcasts.

2761
03:09:09,768 --> 03:09:11,768
And again, once again, thank you, Paul, and have a good evening.

2762
03:09:12,768 --> 03:09:13,768
Thanks for coming on the show.

2763
03:09:14,768 --> 03:09:15,768
Hey, thanks for having me.

2764
03:09:16,768 --> 03:09:17,768
Yes, sir.