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Hello, and welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces. Today is June 30th, 2023, and we are excited to have a chat with everyone who would like to chat about Drivechain.

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Drivechain is Bitcoin Improvement Proposal 300 and 301, a powerful upgrade for Bitcoin, potentially Bitcoin's last upgrade of a significant nature, introducing advanced sidechains, advanced sidechains to Bitcoin, making Bitcoin able to absorb innovation from other protocols,

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bring it to Bitcoin, and bring in all that value, users, fee revenue, network effect, narratives, everything. Come on up to the stage if you'd like to chat. Raise your hand if you're in the audience and you'd like to banter about Drivechain today.

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Welcome to everyone who is joining. Welcome to those who listen after it's recorded to listen on demand. We have a speaker. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Mr. Block6Datasets. How are you?

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Hey, I'm doing great. I've been checking out the BIP300, 301. It's an awesome protocol. I guess you would say the interoperability of the network with other chains. A lot of people are sleeping on this protocol, but it's actually the solution.

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Cool. I agree. It's an exciting topic. It's awesome that you're learning about it. What Drivechain has the potential to do is have Bitcoin absorb all of the value of the altcoins by copying all of their code.

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Altcoins that are clearly good and valid, like Monero and Zcash, clearly, indisputably legitimate projects, Bitcoin would copy them, and then Bitcoin would be able to absorb their users and value and fees, potentially.

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Some people say, why do we need Drivechain? All the altcoins are bad. They're all bad. Well, altcoins have tremendous value. Anyone who says they're illegitimate is making a judgment, and that judgment is disputable.

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And what's indisputable is that the market signals indicate that there is substantial value in altcoins today. So what is Bitcoin's strategy to absorb that value and make Bitcoin the one-stop shop, the big tent for every blockchain project that has value?

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Well, today the strategy mainly is for Bitcoiners to be toxic in their rhetoric, and that is not a viable strategy. If Amazon were to stop innovating but instead just to start taking out negative ads against its competitors, it would not last long.

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The way forward is innovation, and we have to have Bitcoin be a platform of many innovative and experimental efforts.

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And the only way to do that is to have a way for Bitcoin to copy the code of altcoins, and the best way to do that is to have sidechains that are better, because then Bitcoin can have a multitude of sidechains, maybe 100 or 200.

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Drivechain allows there to be many, and then Bitcoin could copy that code and potentially absorb those users, fees, network effect, and narrative.

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So instead of the privacy community being in altcoins and the smart contract community and the large block scaling community for sending micropayments, there's all kinds of different technologies like oracles that should be on Bitcoin, and instead they're mainly on altcoins.

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Today, Bitcoin sidechains are small.

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Excellent efforts by people at Blockstream and Rootstock to create sidechains on Bitcoin so far using federated sidechains have only seen a little bit of success.

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But with drivechain, those sidechain communities would be stronger and better and bigger.

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So that's the drivechain view.

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It is the correct view, I believe.

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And it's a minority view.

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Right now, things aren't looking good.

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Bitcoin has an exciting community, but underneath the surface, perhaps, things are hollowing out.

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It looks good now that we have the market cap crown like we always have had.

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But the question remains for astute observers.

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For astute observers, the question remains, is Bitcoin going to survive?

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Are things as good as the optimists would have you think?

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Ethereum is already half of the value of Bitcoin.

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What if the flippening were to occur?

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What would we say and do?

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How can it be prevented?

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How can we make Bitcoin stronger?

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The answer is embracing innovation.

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Embracing innovation and experimentation.

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So innovation and experimentation need to come in a way that's safe, that doesn't harm Bitcoin.

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So that's what drivechain is.

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Drivechain is designed to allow for there to be a sidechain and those who opt into it benefit from it or suffer from it.

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And those who haven't opted into it don't benefit or suffer from it.

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Although, actually, they do benefit.

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So if you're on the mainchain and you're not even going into a sidechain, you still benefit from the existence of those sidechains.

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So it's a win-win for everyone.

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Yeah, it's an opportunity for, you see a lot of these, you know, Bitcoin offshoots such as Ordinal's, BRC20.

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But you have a lot of different communities that can now integrate and create different projects with Bitcoin by utilizing a drivechain.

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And I think this is actually a true solution than opposed to utilizing a lot of those centralized swaps or so-called bridges,

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which the back end of it when you settle the account is being facilitated by a third party, which is not true decentralization.

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So, yeah, definitely on board.

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Welcome, everyone who's joined. Raise your hand. Come on up to the stage. Join us and chat.

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Happy Friday. Hope everyone had a good week.

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It's been one week since our last talk. We meet every week on Fridays to talk about drivechain.

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Everyone's welcome to come on up to the stage and chat.

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Hello to those familiar faces in the audience.

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Come on up to the stage and chat if you'd like, if you're free.

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Thanks, everyone, for joining.

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Everyone who joins helps us get our message out.

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Bringing in your friends and followers, resharing and liking the space is helpful.

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Thank you for everyone who's contributed anything to the drivechain movement.

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This is a very important movement.

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And we strongly believe we'll be vindicated.

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Either Bitcoin will succeed with drivechain or fail without it.

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That's what we believe.

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We believe drivechain is essential for the survival of Bitcoin.

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And when we say survival, we mean, does Bitcoin become the world's money or just something else?

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If something else becomes the world's money, Bitcoin will have failed.

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And that other project will have succeeded by being better.

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And we believe that it's essential that people recognize this now, not when it's too late.

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Once Ethereum is twice the value of Bitcoin, it's a little bit too late to start thinking about fixing things.

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So the time to act is now.

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And there are a lot of exciting developments going on.

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The drivechain code is being rebased by an OG Bitcoin Core developer.

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In the coming months, perhaps, that work will be done.

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And then there'll be a pull request to Bitcoin Core on GitHub.

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This has never before happened.

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This will be the first time ever that the drivechain code has been submitted in a pull request to Bitcoin Core.

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It'll be an exciting time to observe the discourse on this project.

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If just a few key names come forward and support it, that could sway a lot of the people.

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And we're very excited about that possibility.

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There is more interest now in drivechain than there's ever been.

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There's more support.

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There's more understanding.

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The idea is more mature and developed and refined than it's ever been.

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Welcome to everyone who's joined.

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Come on up to the stage if you'd like to speak.

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We're just getting started here.

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Happy Friday.

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Let's do our weekly check on the Bitcoin fees.

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I like to go to blockchain.com.

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Click on the word Explorer at the top.

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And then click on Charts.

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And then click on Mining Information.

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Let's see where the fee market is today.

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As we know from reading Paul's posts at truthcoin.info, we should check the total transactions fees, USD.

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And what I see right now is that the fees are down, just like the drivechainers predicted.

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We're far below the high that was created by ordinals.

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At the height of the ordinals boom, the fees are down.

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At the height of the ordinals boom, the total fees were $17,700,000 per day on May 7th.

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So a month and a half ago, basically, there was a spike where the ordinals and inscriptions sent fees to $17 million per day.

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Right now, we're at $1.1 million.

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So we are way below the spike. We're over 90% below the spike.

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Hey, Michael, thanks for joining.

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Hey, Henry, good to hear from you again.

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Hey, I'm multitasking a little bit, but I overheard you say that drivechain's proposal was submitted for mainnet.

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I understand drivechains are only on testnet right now.

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Could you maybe explain a little more what that means?

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Because to me, that almost sounds like an ETF filing, right?

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Like you go to someone to get something approved, but obviously it doesn't work that way in Bitcoin.

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So can you explain on that a little bit?

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Sure. Yeah, what I said wasn't exactly what you just said.

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What I said was that the drivechain code is being rebased currently.

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LayerTwo Labs has retained an OG Bitcoin Core developer, Luke Jr., to rebase the code.

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And he will submit a pull request in the future.

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That's what I said, in the coming months, perhaps.

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So it has not been done yet. The pull request has not been done yet.

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So does all that make sense?

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Yeah, thanks for clarifying. I appreciate that.

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Sure thing.

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Welcome, everyone. Come on up to the stage if you'd like.

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All are welcome to share thoughts and ideas, the latest developments.

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As I was saying a moment ago, the fee market spiked on May 7th.

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There was about $18 million of fees paid because of ordinals and inscriptions.

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And now we're at $1.1 million per day, approximately.

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So the fees are way down, over 90% reduction in fees from the spike.

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So what this tells us is that the security budget problem is persisting.

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And it's essential that Bitcoin collect fees from every blockchain in the world in order to send a lot of fees to the miners.

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Ordinals and inscriptions do not appear based on the most available evidence to be sending the fee market to the moon.

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Welcome to the stage, Dr. V.

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How's it going? What's on your mind?

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Dr. V.

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Hey, how are you, man? It's good to be here, Blok. How are you, sir?

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Hello, everyone from South Africa.

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Just saw the space, wanted to pop in.

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Yeah, man, I've been speaking with Blok for a short while, just on how we could integrate some of the Bitcoin safety and the technology with healthcare.

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And especially dentistry in South Africa, which is the industry that I'm in.

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And it's been, I've tried to do some research on what is available and had some ideas.

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But I was wondering with the drivechain, would that then allow for easier implementation of, you know, let's say applications and so into healthcare?

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Would that be something that I could do a little easier?

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Because I'm not one of the most proficient programmers or anything.

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I'm just a dentist.

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But I recently got into crypto with the Zen protocol, which changed my life.

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I completely fell in love with it and the effects and everything on it.

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But then, I don't know if Blok knows this, but his guidance has been quite, quite a lot.

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I do respect the man quite a lot and, you know, take his advice.

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So any, you know, would that be possible?

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Is it something that one could then more easily implement to industries and so?

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And just any information, but thanks for having me.

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I really appreciate it.

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Sure. Great question.

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I haven't seen healthcare related ideas with respect to drivechain.

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But more generally, any innovation that would use a blockchain would be potentially able to be greatly strengthened by existing as a Bitcoin sidechain.

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And therefore, if there is an idea that is powerful and useful for people, it would be best for the Bitcoin community and for the world.

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If it is introduced and used always as a sidechain of Bitcoin instead of being an altcoin.

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So we have an open mind about the potential for blockchain to be used in many different ways.

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And we think that drivechain would greatly strengthen that.

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Thanks, man.

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I would be so grateful to you.

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I'm going to.

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I've added you already.

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But then any information or anything or anything that I could perhaps help out with or to spread the word or, you know, as long as I can work closely with you guys, perhaps learn a little bit more and then, you know, maybe launch some.

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Well, I would definitely launch it with.

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With this in mind, because, I mean, as I've said, Block's opinion, I respect quite a lot and he knows what's right and what's wrong.

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It's something that I've noticed with him and just with the drivechain, the little bit that I've heard now is just falling into place with everything that I wanted to do.

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Because initially the plan was, you know, going from an altcoin chain EVM and then inscribing onto block on the Bitcoin blockchain.

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But if drivechain just allows it so much easier, there's the way forward.

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What you've said, I mean, you caught me with the initial words when I just signed in of it being the future and what the success of Bitcoin would mean.

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I'm fully on board, brother.

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If that's OK with you, I would love to learn more, get more involved, just learn what I can do, how I could implement it.

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And perhaps if you have the time, perhaps guide me sometimes.

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I would be very grateful.

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I would be so happy to.

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Thank you for your questions and comments.

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So go to drivechain.info and layer2labs.com.

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Those are the best places to see the information and get started getting involved.

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So drivechain.info and layer2labs.com.

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Welcome to the stage, Paul.

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And welcome the others who've joined.

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Anyone, please drop your comments.

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I mean, share your comments, speak your mind.

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No need to raise hands.

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Everyone who's joined in the audience, you're welcome to come on up to the stage and share a comment or question about drivechain.

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Thanks for your interest.

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So we meet every Friday to talk about drivechain, which is Bitcoin Improvement Proposal 300 and 301.

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A very powerful upgrade for Bitcoin that would enable advanced sidechains, bringing many new kinds of technologies to Bitcoin, boosting Bitcoin's value.

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Fee revenue for miners, network effect, larger user base, rapid, more rapid adoption, more rapid Bitcoinization.

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Making Bitcoin a hub for innovation and experimentation.

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On top of a conservative and more ossified base layer.

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So it gives everybody what they want.

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The digital gold Austrian conservative Bitcoiners get a more hardened base layer, a base layer less susceptible to bad changes and frequent adjustments.

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And the scientists, innovators and builders and developers who want to experiment and innovate, they get the advanced sidechains which enable innovation in a safe partitioned manner.

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So everybody gets what they want with drivechain.

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It could potentially bring home to Bitcoin the large blockers, bring home to Bitcoin the privacy altcoin communities, bring home to Bitcoin the builders.

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Every blockchain community might migrate to Bitcoin, boosting Bitcoin's value tremendously.

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If drivechain is adopted.

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It's a big if. We need support and interest, understanding and engagement.

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Otherwise, Bitcoin will suffer by continuing to not have a higher degree of experimentation and innovation.

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Coming up to the stage, raise your hand and ask a question, share a critical comment, whatever you want to say.

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Don't be shy.

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Maybe you can explain to some of the listeners what this is able to do, how it integrates with other blockchains for some of the new listeners that are joining the space.

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Yeah. So an advanced sidechain is one where the interesting new technology that's experimental and innovative and that's different than Bitcoin mainchain can exist in a way with Bitcoin that boosts Bitcoin's value.

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So there could be a privacy sidechain and there are no coins on it at first.

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But then people send their Bitcoin to that sidechain.

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They use a synthetic Bitcoin to transact confidentially.

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And then when they're done, they can burn that sidechain coin by redeeming their mainchain Bitcoin.

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So there's a two way peg between the mainchain Bitcoin and the sidechain.

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And unlike the federated sidechains today, there would be no socially selected privileged group of people who are controlling the Bitcoin in the sidechain.

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Instead, it would be the Bitcoin miners, a diverse, global, highly distributed, dynamic set of parties.

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And anyone can be a Bitcoin miner.

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So there's no social barrier to entry into that set of people.

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And therefore, it's more more peer-to-peer than the sidechains of today.

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In the words of Adam Back, who likes drivechain, he has said the sidechain would be more peer-to-peer if drivechain is adopted.

208
00:21:57,977 --> 00:22:07,977
And he also stated last year that activation of drivechain could have been potentially more useful and valuable than taproot.

209
00:22:08,977 --> 00:22:17,977
So there are some significant names in the technical community who favor drivechain as the next and perhaps the final upgrade for Bitcoin.

210
00:22:18,977 --> 00:22:24,977
Fiatjaf, the creator of Nostr, also endorses the project emphatically and has for years.

211
00:22:25,977 --> 00:22:29,977
And many others like Mike Tidwell of TabConf.

212
00:22:30,977 --> 00:22:32,977
And we have a whole list of them.

213
00:22:32,977 --> 00:22:38,977
If you go to our website, LayerTwo Labs, you can see a list of people who've shared favorable comments on drivechain.

214
00:22:39,977 --> 00:22:41,977
If you click at the top or on the word friends.

215
00:22:42,977 --> 00:22:46,977
Welcome to the stage, Ebolr.

216
00:22:47,977 --> 00:22:48,977
What's up?

217
00:22:49,977 --> 00:22:50,977
Thank you.

218
00:22:51,977 --> 00:22:52,977
I just have a couple of seconds.

219
00:22:53,977 --> 00:22:54,977
I just want to throw in my question.

220
00:22:55,977 --> 00:22:56,977
I'm a drivechain supporter.

221
00:22:56,977 --> 00:23:02,977
I've been a drivechain supporter for a long time since I've tested it.

222
00:23:03,977 --> 00:23:07,977
I found it very promising.

223
00:23:08,977 --> 00:23:16,977
My question is, I see more talk about rollups.

224
00:23:17,977 --> 00:23:18,977
These days, rollups for Bitcoin.

225
00:23:19,977 --> 00:23:23,977
Validium rollup is one that some people think will be possible.

226
00:23:23,977 --> 00:23:36,977
My question is, Josh, what are the benefits that we will miss if we go the rollup way instead of drivechain?

227
00:23:37,977 --> 00:23:45,977
Well, rollups and sidechains are kind of similar.

228
00:23:46,977 --> 00:23:48,977
But a sidechain has more flexibility.

229
00:23:49,977 --> 00:23:50,977
You have total flexibility.

230
00:23:50,977 --> 00:23:57,977
And maybe a rollup is more narrow, but it's slightly more secure, maybe.

231
00:23:58,977 --> 00:24:02,977
But the flexibility of the sidechain is really key.

232
00:24:03,977 --> 00:24:08,977
And the whole loose coupling of the SPV proof, that is really key to the whole idea.

233
00:24:09,977 --> 00:24:16,977
Because the idea is that in a world with innovation, people are going to disagree about what the blockchain should contain.

234
00:24:17,977 --> 00:24:22,977
And that is the problem that sidechains solve, that rollups do not solve.

235
00:24:23,977 --> 00:24:27,977
Rollups are just like packing more of what's already possible on one blockchain.

236
00:24:28,977 --> 00:24:36,977
Kind of like packing the luggage tighter on the airplane or something.

237
00:24:37,977 --> 00:24:39,977
So you can't really do anything too new.

238
00:24:40,977 --> 00:24:43,977
And so the novelty is key for sidechains, I think.

239
00:24:43,977 --> 00:24:44,977
But we should do both, really.

240
00:24:45,977 --> 00:24:52,977
It's kind of silly that we wouldn't do everything that we could possibly do to make the underlying project a success.

241
00:24:54,977 --> 00:24:56,977
Yeah, I agree.

242
00:24:57,977 --> 00:24:59,977
I have one last question.

243
00:25:00,977 --> 00:25:02,977
Honestly, what do you think?

244
00:25:03,977 --> 00:25:08,977
Because drivechain is something that exists for quite a while already.

245
00:25:08,977 --> 00:25:12,977
And I know that, I think it was during the block size war.

246
00:25:13,977 --> 00:25:19,977
Drivechain was a possibility, but the community chose for, let's say, a different path.

247
00:25:21,977 --> 00:25:27,977
But for today, what do you think is the reason why there's not much enthusiasm?

248
00:25:28,977 --> 00:25:31,977
People are not just enthusiastic about drivechain?

249
00:25:32,977 --> 00:25:33,977
Yeah.

250
00:25:33,977 --> 00:25:40,977
Block size war actually was not good for Bitcoin and not good for sidechains especially.

251
00:25:41,977 --> 00:25:50,977
Because what happened was the people who would have normally, like the problem that sidechains would have solved instead, they decided to fight this war.

252
00:25:51,977 --> 00:25:53,977
It said that everyone could have stuck together.

253
00:25:54,977 --> 00:26:00,977
And then after the sides split, now the large blockers, they really want Bitcoin Cash to succeed.

254
00:26:00,977 --> 00:26:06,977
So the last thing they want is for Bitcoin BTC to get larger blocks somehow.

255
00:26:07,977 --> 00:26:14,977
And then similarly, the small blocker side just feels like, you know, they just think something like, we won.

256
00:26:15,977 --> 00:26:17,977
Getting rid of Bitcoin Cash was a good thing.

257
00:26:18,977 --> 00:26:19,977
Getting rid of large blocks was a good thing.

258
00:26:19,977 --> 00:26:20,977
Getting rid of large blocks was a good thing.

259
00:26:21,977 --> 00:26:29,977
This proves that the right way to go is to be toxic and resist all change and kick everyone out.

260
00:26:30,977 --> 00:26:33,977
The more people who kick out, the better.

261
00:26:34,977 --> 00:26:47,977
So unfortunately, the whole culture changed for the worse, leaving people to believe this overconfident, complacent attitude.

262
00:26:48,977 --> 00:26:54,977
Where people just think, we don't need to do anything, we're just going to win.

263
00:26:55,977 --> 00:26:59,977
The only thing we need to do is resist innovation, resist changes.

264
00:27:00,977 --> 00:27:02,977
So that is, they are one and the same.

265
00:27:03,977 --> 00:27:12,977
If the block size war kind of ruined people's understanding of what the sidechain is for.

266
00:27:13,977 --> 00:27:14,977
And so that's part of it.

267
00:27:14,977 --> 00:27:16,977
And I think the culture has really never recovered.

268
00:27:17,977 --> 00:27:24,977
Not until the wrong people are invited to different...

269
00:27:25,977 --> 00:27:36,977
Which type of person gets attention on Twitter or at big conferences is not anyone who wants to grow the community.

270
00:27:37,977 --> 00:27:38,977
It's the toxic people.

271
00:27:39,977 --> 00:27:46,977
Yeah, I have a feeling that the whole ordinal movement is maybe doing something about that.

272
00:27:47,977 --> 00:27:56,977
But I think we are still far away, much too far to bring some new innovation to Bitcoin.

273
00:27:58,977 --> 00:28:02,977
Paul, what is your outlook on the ordinals and inscriptions development?

274
00:28:03,977 --> 00:28:17,977
Is that something which you think will be for the next year or to further a source of actual technological innovation in terms of the variety of things that are being done using that path of development?

275
00:28:18,977 --> 00:28:23,977
Or do you think that we've seen what happens which is just NFTs and then that's probably it?

276
00:28:24,977 --> 00:28:30,977
Well, I think what people really like is something that solves the problem they have and people also like novelty.

277
00:28:31,977 --> 00:28:34,977
So I think the novelty has been wearing off for ordinals.

278
00:28:35,977 --> 00:28:43,977
I think what ordinals... In my perspective, the ordinal story is one where people...

279
00:28:44,977 --> 00:28:56,977
It shows how frustrated people are with the boring status quo and that there's a group of people who just want something new to happen and they want things to be fun.

280
00:28:57,977 --> 00:28:59,977
And that's what the story really is to me.

281
00:29:00,977 --> 00:29:01,977
I don't know about anything else.

282
00:29:02,977 --> 00:29:08,977
I think, like, to me it does seem like a perfectible task to just do inscriptions and ordinals.

283
00:29:09,977 --> 00:29:14,977
So I think the word fad is a decent word.

284
00:29:15,977 --> 00:29:28,977
I don't know the exact timeline, but I do think that part of why they're interesting is because they are new and I think it's a perfectible task.

285
00:29:29,977 --> 00:29:30,977
You know what I mean? It'll get old.

286
00:29:31,977 --> 00:29:35,977
It has to get old because it's just not that complicated.

287
00:29:36,977 --> 00:29:49,977
So I think the idea that people want to store files on the blockchain is real and that idea will be with us permanently and really has always been with us and should always have been with us.

288
00:29:50,977 --> 00:30:09,977
And so I think that idea will stay with us and I'm just not sure that people will love these NFTs.

289
00:30:10,977 --> 00:30:14,977
I think the NFT idea is also with us forever and people actually will like it.

290
00:30:14,977 --> 00:30:15,977
Someone will figure that out.

291
00:30:16,977 --> 00:30:21,977
They'll make an NFT of every NFL play or something.

292
00:30:22,977 --> 00:30:26,977
And so I think that the ideas are with us, but I don't know.

293
00:30:27,977 --> 00:30:37,977
As far as something that will boost Bitcoin transaction fees, I don't think it will be a permanent big boost.

294
00:30:40,977 --> 00:30:41,977
Thank you.

295
00:30:41,977 --> 00:30:42,977
Thank you.

296
00:30:43,977 --> 00:30:48,977
Another question I've had recently is, it seems like the drivechain critics for years have been split.

297
00:30:49,977 --> 00:30:57,977
Some think that the sidechains would be insecure and others think that the sidechains would produce a lot of MEV.

298
00:30:58,977 --> 00:31:02,977
But of course, those are mutually incompatible objections, correct?

299
00:31:03,977 --> 00:31:08,977
It can't be that the sidechains will be robbed by the miners, but also produce a lot of fee revenue.

300
00:31:09,977 --> 00:31:10,977
Right.

301
00:31:11,977 --> 00:31:13,977
So they have to make up their mind.

302
00:31:14,977 --> 00:31:17,977
Is it that the miners will steal or that the sidechains will be very successfully large?

303
00:31:18,977 --> 00:31:28,977
And if it's the latter, then they say, OK, well, they'll be large, but it'll diminish the decentralization of the main chain due to the MEV.

304
00:31:29,977 --> 00:31:32,977
So we have to just crush this MEV confusion.

305
00:31:33,977 --> 00:31:39,977
It's like a hand wave, people who mentioned like, oh, the MEV is bad and therefore it's better that all of that activity be on Ethereum.

306
00:31:40,977 --> 00:31:44,977
What is your view on the long term future of blockchain economics?

307
00:31:45,977 --> 00:31:53,977
Will MEV be something people talk about forever as a problem or will it be revealed as a non-issue?

308
00:31:54,977 --> 00:31:55,977
What are your thoughts on that?

309
00:31:56,977 --> 00:32:01,977
I don't think the people who are complaining about MEV really know what they're saying.

310
00:32:02,977 --> 00:32:06,977
On one hand, they're saying it's bad if miners make more money.

311
00:32:07,977 --> 00:32:13,977
But if so, then they're complaining against merge mining and they are complaining, you know, Satoshi invented merge mining.

312
00:32:14,977 --> 00:32:18,977
So they're in a weird situation.

313
00:32:19,977 --> 00:32:26,977
On another hand, when they say MEV, they're not literally referring to like the Ethereum MEV.

314
00:32:27,977 --> 00:32:28,977
They're being more abstract.

315
00:32:29,977 --> 00:32:31,977
But the question is, how abstract are they willing to go?

316
00:32:32,977 --> 00:32:47,977
They're saying like if the miners, if heat coming off the miners would encourage a miner to live in a location where they can use the waste heat from the miners to dry fruit or grow fruit in a greenhouse.

317
00:32:48,977 --> 00:32:50,977
And does that count as MEV?

318
00:32:51,977 --> 00:33:02,977
So I just think it's what it really is, is it's arguing against the success of the side, saying the sidechain to be very successful, be very popular, generate a lot of fees, have a lot of activity.

319
00:33:03,977 --> 00:33:08,977
And they think that would then divide the attention of the mining pool operator.

320
00:33:09,977 --> 00:33:11,977
But really, the mining pool operators attention is already divided.

321
00:33:12,977 --> 00:33:17,977
So it's like, let's say Bitcoin, you earn, let's say you earn $10, whatever, $10 a day.

322
00:33:18,977 --> 00:33:19,977
It doesn't make sense, but just say whatever you like.

323
00:33:20,977 --> 00:33:25,977
$10 a day for the layer one, and then $12 a day for all the layer two sidechains.

324
00:33:26,977 --> 00:33:28,977
So they think, well, now they care more about the sidechains than layer one.

325
00:33:29,977 --> 00:33:38,977
But the thing is, even if you removed all the layer two sidechains, they still would only care to the tune of $10 per day or whatever it is.

326
00:33:38,977 --> 00:33:41,977
And so then there's all the other things that they could care about in their life.

327
00:33:42,977 --> 00:33:45,977
And what we want is successful Bitcoin, we want successful miners.

328
00:33:46,977 --> 00:33:55,977
Also, the success of the sidechains would, of course, boost the price of the coin, which hits the block subsidy on layer one and all the transaction fees on layer one.

329
00:33:56,977 --> 00:33:57,977
It moves those up whenever the price is higher.

330
00:33:58,977 --> 00:33:59,977
It's all about the higher price.

331
00:34:00,977 --> 00:34:05,977
So that is the security model, so to speak.

332
00:34:06,977 --> 00:34:13,977
In that sense, what they call MBV is a good thing, and we want to maximize it.

333
00:34:14,977 --> 00:34:16,977
But really, they just don't know what they're talking about.

334
00:34:17,977 --> 00:34:20,977
They just think some shitcoin thing on Bitcoin.

335
00:34:21,977 --> 00:34:25,977
They don't realize that the whole point of sidechains is so that it's not on layer one Bitcoin Core.

336
00:34:26,977 --> 00:34:27,977
So the whole point is to not do it.

337
00:34:28,977 --> 00:34:29,977
So they're just really confused.

338
00:34:30,977 --> 00:34:47,977
To understand what they might be saying, what they're trying to say is that there's a certain kind of transaction in a smart contract which would create a profitable opportunity for a miner to try to reorg the sidechain.

339
00:34:48,977 --> 00:34:52,977
The other thing they don't understand, though, is the sidechain is its own piece of software.

340
00:34:53,977 --> 00:34:58,977
If it reorgs, your layer one node is unaffected.

341
00:34:59,977 --> 00:35:01,977
So it could reorg all day, who cares?

342
00:35:02,977 --> 00:35:03,977
Right.

343
00:35:04,977 --> 00:35:07,977
So only those who opted in would have anything to do with that.

344
00:35:08,977 --> 00:35:09,977
Right.

345
00:35:10,977 --> 00:35:15,977
It's literally no different than if Ethereum had MBV and reorged, which it does.

346
00:35:16,977 --> 00:35:19,977
So it's literally no different from the current situation.

347
00:35:20,977 --> 00:35:24,977
Other than Ethereum is using Bitcoin now instead of ETH.

348
00:35:25,977 --> 00:35:26,977
That's the only difference.

349
00:35:30,977 --> 00:35:36,977
In the history of Bitcoin, has there ever been a very substantial reorg?

350
00:35:40,977 --> 00:35:42,977
Well, yes.

351
00:35:43,977 --> 00:35:47,977
But there's never been a reorg attack.

352
00:35:48,977 --> 00:35:52,977
But there have been mistakes made by the developers that have accidentally triggered reorgs.

353
00:35:53,977 --> 00:35:56,977
Including one by Satoshi, this value overflow thing.

354
00:35:56,977 --> 00:36:01,977
In both cases, it was like within five hours, within six hours, things were caught.

355
00:36:02,977 --> 00:36:05,977
The level DB database lock thing.

356
00:36:06,977 --> 00:36:09,977
They were caught and the chain was redone.

357
00:36:10,977 --> 00:36:12,977
And once someone did a double spend, but only as like a science experiment.

358
00:36:13,977 --> 00:36:18,977
And they returned the money to whoever they double spent back in 2013, I think.

359
00:36:19,977 --> 00:36:23,977
And so the real answer is no.

360
00:36:24,977 --> 00:36:28,977
Because even though there have been some, they only lasted a few hours.

361
00:36:29,977 --> 00:36:32,977
And they were early on and they were very unrepresentative.

362
00:36:33,977 --> 00:36:35,977
And nothing really bad happened as a result.

363
00:36:41,977 --> 00:36:43,977
Understood. Thank you.

364
00:36:43,977 --> 00:36:44,977
Welcome everyone who's joined.

365
00:36:45,977 --> 00:36:49,977
Raise your hand to come on up to the stage and chat about Drivechain with us.

366
00:37:00,977 --> 00:37:05,977
Well, Paul, one of the exciting things that's happening is the rebasing of the code.

367
00:37:06,977 --> 00:37:09,977
In that 2020 white paper from Blockstream on Liquid,

368
00:37:09,977 --> 00:37:13,977
they mentioned two or three concerns about Drivechain.

369
00:37:14,977 --> 00:37:18,977
One is whether the miners might steal.

370
00:37:19,977 --> 00:37:22,977
And then they also mentioned it's unclear what the incentives might be.

371
00:37:23,977 --> 00:37:26,977
If Drivechain were adopted, it could be complex incentives.

372
00:37:27,977 --> 00:37:28,977
And then the third thing is about the code.

373
00:37:29,977 --> 00:37:32,977
So that third objection will be eliminated.

374
00:37:33,977 --> 00:37:38,977
For those who are focused on the code and want to review a reference implementation

375
00:37:39,977 --> 00:37:43,977
and a complete specification, a fully rebased code,

376
00:37:44,977 --> 00:37:46,977
they'll have that opportunity once this work is done.

377
00:37:47,977 --> 00:37:49,977
So in the near future, in the coming months perhaps,

378
00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:51,977
the Drivechain code will be fully rebased.

379
00:37:52,977 --> 00:37:55,977
And everyone who's ever objected to Drivechain because the code wasn't,

380
00:37:56,977 --> 00:37:58,977
you know, submitted in a pull request,

381
00:37:59,977 --> 00:38:04,977
they will be satisfied insofar as they made that line of critique.

382
00:38:05,977 --> 00:38:07,977
So that'll be an exciting change for the movement.

383
00:38:10,977 --> 00:38:20,977
Well, yes, it's the obvious sort of next step and final step.

384
00:38:21,977 --> 00:38:29,977
Yeah, great.

385
00:38:30,977 --> 00:38:34,977
Welcome, everyone who's listening and also welcome to those who listen later.

386
00:38:35,977 --> 00:38:38,977
This is a recorded space so people can listen on demand after it's over.

387
00:38:39,977 --> 00:38:43,977
But right now, come on up to the stage and share a question or comment.

388
00:38:44,977 --> 00:38:46,977
Everybody who's listening, raise your hand if you'd like.

389
00:38:47,977 --> 00:38:49,977
I see a lot of familiar faces in the audience.

390
00:38:50,977 --> 00:38:54,977
Welcome to everyone who's a fan of Drivechain, a critic of Drivechain,

391
00:38:55,977 --> 00:38:59,977
or just curious to learn more about this Bitcoin improvement proposal.

392
00:39:00,977 --> 00:39:05,977
It's one of the most well-known of all of the Bitcoin improvement proposals

393
00:39:05,977 --> 00:39:11,977
in terms of its years of development, its very substantial following,

394
00:39:12,977 --> 00:39:19,977
and its reach, its potential to greatly strengthen Bitcoin.

395
00:39:20,977 --> 00:39:23,977
It's one of the more exciting ideas that's ever been put forward,

396
00:39:24,977 --> 00:39:27,977
trying to rejuvenate the sidechain movement in Bitcoin.

397
00:39:28,977 --> 00:39:31,977
Right now, we only have a few quite small sidechains.

398
00:39:32,977 --> 00:39:34,977
It's just a tiny part of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

399
00:39:35,977 --> 00:39:40,977
But with Drivechain, it could become a tremendously valuable feature of the ecosystem.

400
00:39:41,977 --> 00:39:47,977
Something which greatly diminishes the role of altcoins in the economy.

401
00:39:48,977 --> 00:39:53,977
Because we would copy all of the good technology from altcoins into Bitcoin,

402
00:39:54,977 --> 00:39:58,977
potentially absorbing all of their users, all of their value, all of their number go up,

403
00:39:59,977 --> 00:40:01,977
all of their fees, all of their network effect.

404
00:40:04,091 --> 00:40:17,091
Lots of people complain about altcoins. Lots of Bitcoiners say altcoins are evil, altcoins are immoral, they're all scams. But they don't have an idea for eliminating altcoins.

405
00:40:18,091 --> 00:40:34,091
Drivechain can do that. Drivechain has potential to eliminate altcoins. This is the one idea, more than any other, that has the potential to make everyone think there is no point in even trying to launch an altcoin.

406
00:40:34,091 --> 00:40:42,091
Because everybody will be launching Bitcoin sidechains when they have a very good idea for a blockchain.

407
00:40:43,091 --> 00:40:58,091
So what is a Bitcoin sidechain? Well, if Drivechain is adopted, the Bitcoin sidechains will share Bitcoin's monetary policy, so there's no money printing, and share Bitcoin's miners through merged mining.

408
00:40:59,091 --> 00:41:09,091
So the sidechain gives you Bitcoin's monetary policy and miners, but the features and technology and software of something other than Bitcoin.

409
00:41:10,091 --> 00:41:19,091
So that's the amazing relationship there is you get the best parts of Bitcoin, but you also get experimentation and innovation.

410
00:41:19,091 --> 00:41:34,091
So you have Bitcoin's hash rate and Bitcoin's monetary policy, but the features of a privacy coin or the features of a large block version of Bitcoin or the features of Ethereum or something that's never even been launched.

411
00:41:34,091 --> 00:41:41,091
There are ideas out there that have never been created as an altcoin, but they would be created as a Bitcoin sidechain.

412
00:41:41,091 --> 00:41:45,091
For example, HiveMind, the peer-to-peer Oracle network.

413
00:41:48,091 --> 00:41:51,091
Welcome to everyone listening. Come on up to the stage, raise your hand.

414
00:41:53,091 --> 00:41:54,091
Hello to all the familiar faces.

415
00:41:55,091 --> 00:41:57,091
Welcome, Bitcoin biohacker.

416
00:42:00,091 --> 00:42:01,091
What's up?

417
00:42:01,091 --> 00:42:09,091
I was just wondering, could this be done on Lightning, which is a Layer 2 protocol?

418
00:42:14,091 --> 00:42:15,091
I think the answer is no.

419
00:42:15,091 --> 00:42:25,091
It is not possible to use Lightning to build an unlimited variety of protocols on top of Bitcoin.

420
00:42:31,091 --> 00:42:34,091
However, Lightning and drivechain work hand in hand.

421
00:42:35,091 --> 00:42:43,091
They go together very well, because there could be Lightning on top of any of the sidechains, just like there's Lightning on top of Bitcoin.

422
00:42:49,091 --> 00:42:52,091
So these ideas, Lightning and drivechain, are complementary.

423
00:42:54,091 --> 00:42:55,091
They work well together.

424
00:42:56,091 --> 00:42:57,091
There could be good sidechains.

425
00:42:57,091 --> 00:42:58,091
Welcome to the stage, BitCode.

426
00:43:00,091 --> 00:43:01,091
Hi, everyone.

427
00:43:02,091 --> 00:43:07,091
Can I make one comment only about the Lightning, the difference between drivechains and Lightning?

428
00:43:08,091 --> 00:43:10,091
I mean, it's a totally different thing anyways.

429
00:43:11,091 --> 00:43:13,091
But Lightning is different.

430
00:43:14,091 --> 00:43:15,091
It's not the same as Bitcoin.

431
00:43:16,091 --> 00:43:17,091
It's not the same as Bitcoin.

432
00:43:17,091 --> 00:43:21,091
So can I make one comment only about the Lightning, the difference between drivechains and Lightning?

433
00:43:22,091 --> 00:43:24,091
I mean, it's a totally different thing anyways.

434
00:43:25,091 --> 00:43:36,091
But Lightning is centralized, and we aim to increase the space with decentralized things.

435
00:43:37,091 --> 00:43:41,091
So drivechains are, I think, the best and only solution for this.

436
00:43:48,091 --> 00:43:56,091
Yeah, there's a great article, if you're interested, on Lightning at truthcoin.info.

437
00:43:57,091 --> 00:44:03,091
So you can see what Paul Sztorc has written on this.

438
00:44:04,091 --> 00:44:05,091
I'll share it.

439
00:44:06,091 --> 00:44:07,091
Here we go.

440
00:44:08,091 --> 00:44:10,091
Lightning Network Fundamental Principles.

441
00:44:18,091 --> 00:44:34,091
So if the drivechains are the alternate pegs, or whatever word you want to think about the drivechains,

442
00:44:35,091 --> 00:44:47,091
would each individual sidechain potentially be as centralized as Lightning, or how would they be different?

443
00:44:48,091 --> 00:44:58,091
So whether something is decentralized or centralized has to do with whether the validation is localized to ordinary people.

444
00:44:58,091 --> 00:45:09,091
So with Bitcoin, it is highly decentralized because an ordinary person can afford to download a copy of the blockchain and validate it completely.

445
00:45:10,091 --> 00:45:13,091
So they can be sure that they were paid in Bitcoin.

446
00:45:14,091 --> 00:45:23,091
Rather than having to go somewhere else and ask a third party to validate for them, the validation is localized to the ordinary person level, the ordinary user.

447
00:45:24,091 --> 00:45:27,091
So that's the meaning of decentralization in our view.

448
00:45:29,091 --> 00:45:35,091
And the level of decentralization on sidechains would depend on the cost of validating them.

449
00:45:36,091 --> 00:45:41,091
Some sidechains would be cheap to validate, other sidechains might be a bit expensive to validate,

450
00:45:42,091 --> 00:45:49,091
and people would be able to opt in completely voluntarily to any or none of the sidechains.

451
00:45:50,091 --> 00:45:53,091
Just like with Lightning, people don't use Lightning who don't want to.

452
00:45:54,091 --> 00:45:56,091
No one has to use it. The exact same thing is true.

453
00:45:56,091 --> 00:46:06,091
So what Drivechain is all about is letting people choose, letting the consumer decide what level of decentralization she prefers.

454
00:46:07,091 --> 00:46:09,091
So whatever you want to do is fine.

455
00:46:10,091 --> 00:46:20,091
Drivechain lets the consumer decide rather than forcing the consumer to choose between Bitcoin with its particular features and the ones that it doesn't have.

456
00:46:21,091 --> 00:46:22,091
The user has to go to an altcoin.

457
00:46:22,091 --> 00:46:29,091
Instead, with Drivechain, the user can stay with Bitcoin and simply opt in to whichever sidechain is preferred.

458
00:46:44,091 --> 00:46:49,091
Let's hear another question. Come on up to the stage. Anyone? Share your questions and comments.

459
00:46:53,091 --> 00:46:58,091
We would love to hear your thoughts on Drivechain.

460
00:47:05,091 --> 00:47:06,091
I do have a question.

461
00:47:10,091 --> 00:47:11,091
Fantastic.

462
00:47:12,091 --> 00:47:15,091
My question is as follows.

463
00:47:16,091 --> 00:47:24,091
What are the changes that you will need on Bitcoin in order to be able to do Drivechain?

464
00:47:25,091 --> 00:47:35,091
And to what extent are they the same changes you will need to do a rollup on Bitcoin?

465
00:47:36,091 --> 00:47:40,091
So Drivechain introduces two opcodes to Bitcoin.

466
00:47:41,091 --> 00:47:45,091
One is in BIP300 and the other is in BIP301.

467
00:47:46,091 --> 00:47:50,091
And therefore Drivechain is a soft fork of Bitcoin, not a hard fork.

468
00:47:51,091 --> 00:48:07,091
And these changes are important and necessary for the creation of the Drivechain architecture, which is a peer-to-peer two-way peg for sidechains that involve no trusted federation, no trusted privileged party.

469
00:48:08,091 --> 00:48:16,091
But instead, the entire Bitcoin mining ecosystem is involved in the management of the two-way peg.

470
00:48:17,091 --> 00:48:32,091
So that's the answer, is there would be a soft fork to introduce BIP300 hashrate escrow and a second opcode for BIP301, which relieves miners of the responsibility of running the node.

471
00:48:33,091 --> 00:48:36,091
It makes it optional for miners to run the node of a sidechain.

472
00:48:37,091 --> 00:48:44,091
So all miners would collect the fees from the sidechain, whether or not they run the node of the sidechain.

473
00:48:45,091 --> 00:48:47,091
That's called blind merged mining.

474
00:48:48,091 --> 00:48:50,091
So those are the two innovations of Drivechain.

475
00:48:51,091 --> 00:48:52,091
First, hashrate escrow.

476
00:48:53,091 --> 00:48:54,091
And second, blind merged mining.

477
00:48:55,091 --> 00:48:57,091
And each involves one new opcode.

478
00:48:59,091 --> 00:49:01,091
Oh, nice, nice, nice.

479
00:49:02,091 --> 00:49:13,091
And the second part of my question, the reason why I ask this is, the second part of my question is actually, if you would enable Drivechain, are you for any reason,

480
00:49:14,091 --> 00:49:21,091
excluding the possibility to do rollups in the future or are they not related at all?

481
00:49:23,091 --> 00:49:36,091
They're a little bit related in the sense that if Drivechain is done, then rollups, if they are a good idea to be used on Bitcoin's mainchain, will come faster to Bitcoin's mainchain.

482
00:49:37,091 --> 00:49:43,091
So Drivechain is an accelerator for good ideas and a decelerator for bad ideas.

483
00:49:45,091 --> 00:49:53,091
The way this works is that right now the Bitcoin community deliberates on which changes to make to the mainchain.

484
00:49:54,091 --> 00:50:02,091
But with Drivechain, deliberation wouldn't be the only way that the Bitcoin community chooses which changes to make.

485
00:50:02,091 --> 00:50:14,091
Instead, if there are 10 good ideas out there for a change to Bitcoin, if Drivechain exists on Bitcoin, then those 10 ideas can be implemented as sidechains.

486
00:50:16,091 --> 00:50:22,091
So there could be a clone of Bitcoin, but it has CTV included as a sidechain.

487
00:50:23,091 --> 00:50:25,091
And there could be another sidechain that has APO.

488
00:50:26,091 --> 00:50:28,091
And there could be another sidechain that has SysAg.

489
00:50:29,091 --> 00:50:31,091
And there could be another sidechain that has Simplicity.

490
00:50:32,091 --> 00:50:37,091
And there could be another sidechain that has other changes.

491
00:50:38,091 --> 00:50:49,091
And each of those sidechains would accrue value if they're used and wanted by consumers and if they're stable.

492
00:50:50,091 --> 00:50:58,091
So Drivechain would enable ideas in Bitcoin's technical community to compete for value.

493
00:50:59,091 --> 00:51:05,091
And therefore, instead of mere deliberation, Bitcoin would improve through a process of competition.

494
00:51:06,091 --> 00:51:14,091
And that economic competition would be a powerful improvement to the way that the Bitcoin community chooses how to make changes.

495
00:51:15,091 --> 00:51:27,091
So if rollups are a good thing for Bitcoin and people want them on a blockchain, then that sidechain would accrue value as Bitcoiners opt into that sidechain to use its features.

496
00:51:28,091 --> 00:51:32,091
And it would accelerate the adoption of that on mainchain, perhaps.

497
00:51:33,091 --> 00:51:38,091
So that's the way that Drivechain is harmonious and synergistic with the rollups movement.

498
00:51:38,091 --> 00:51:54,091
One of the experts on rollups for Bitcoin, the author of BitcoinRollups.com, John Light of Sovereign, has visited our space and said that he likes Drivechain and rollups coming to Bitcoin.

499
00:51:55,091 --> 00:52:02,091
And he thinks that because Drivechain is an older, more conservative idea, I don't want to misquote him, but he said something to that effect.

500
00:52:03,091 --> 00:52:15,091
That he would think that it's probably better to have Drivechain happen first because its technology is less esoteric than the rollup zero knowledge technology.

501
00:52:16,091 --> 00:52:20,091
And therefore, let's do Drivechain first and then test rollups on a sidechain.

502
00:52:21,091 --> 00:52:26,091
And perhaps if that would be very successful, bring rollups to Bitcoin mainchain as well.

503
00:52:27,091 --> 00:52:30,091
Welcome to the stage, Wicked. Always nice to chat with you.

504
00:52:31,091 --> 00:52:33,091
Also, welcome to the stage, Austin, my colleague.

505
00:52:34,091 --> 00:52:36,091
Hey, guys. Thanks for putting on this space.

506
00:52:37,091 --> 00:52:45,091
Drivechains are definitely something that I have yet to really explore, to be honest.

507
00:52:45,091 --> 00:52:52,091
One of the things that you were just talking about, having various sidechains for different ideas.

508
00:52:53,091 --> 00:53:02,091
And you said, kind of like alluding to the stable one surviving would be good for the ecosystem and whatever.

509
00:53:03,091 --> 00:53:06,091
And I was just wondering, what happens if a sidechain becomes unstable?

510
00:53:07,091 --> 00:53:09,091
Yeah, that's a great question.

511
00:53:09,091 --> 00:53:10,091
Yeah, that's a great question.

512
00:53:11,091 --> 00:53:18,091
So the original design of Drivechain and the way it was introduced at the very beginning contemplated exactly that concern.

513
00:53:19,091 --> 00:53:32,091
So the answer has always been consistent and correct, which is that the will of the Bitcoin community expressed through the miners is empowered to terminate any sidechain that is problematic.

514
00:53:32,091 --> 00:53:43,091
So if there is a sidechain that is reducing the value of Bitcoin or interfering with other sidechains, and there are some complicated potential ways that that can happen.

515
00:53:44,091 --> 00:53:54,091
If there is a blockchain that's problematic in the Bitcoin ecosystem because of Drivechain, then the miners would be able to terminate that Drivechain sidechain.

516
00:53:55,091 --> 00:53:57,091
And therefore it would be eliminated.

517
00:53:57,091 --> 00:54:02,091
And also if there were ever a problem with Drivechain itself, it could be solved forked out.

518
00:54:03,091 --> 00:54:12,091
So Drivechain is an idea with unbelievably high upside and virtually no downside, understood in the way that I just described.

519
00:54:13,091 --> 00:54:17,091
Where if there's a problem in a sidechain or in Drivechain itself, it could be removed.

520
00:54:18,091 --> 00:54:30,091
And the potential gain from adding Drivechain is the potential for embracing and absorbing all of the value and good ideas from all of the altcoins, as well as the ideas that haven't yet been developed.

521
00:54:31,091 --> 00:54:38,091
So imagine we do Drivechain today and then in a year from now, a brilliant person has a brilliant idea for a new blockchain.

522
00:54:39,091 --> 00:54:44,091
Is that person going to build it as a Bitcoin sidechain or are they going to build it as an altcoin?

523
00:54:44,091 --> 00:54:53,091
If we adopt Drivechain, we greatly increase the chances that that person will build their brilliant idea as a Bitcoin sidechain.

524
00:54:54,091 --> 00:55:05,091
And then Bitcoin users, including those who never use sidechains, will have their token appreciate and their miners gain revenue because of the success of this Bitcoin sidechain.

525
00:55:06,091 --> 00:55:14,091
Whereas without Drivechain, this brilliant idea that's coming in a year from now, hypothetically, would almost certainly be built as an altcoin.

526
00:55:15,091 --> 00:55:23,091
This brilliant person would say to himself, hmm, I could either go to the Bitcoin community and lobby for months and years to get my idea included in Bitcoin.

527
00:55:24,091 --> 00:55:31,091
Or I can just embrace freedom and launch my own altcoin that competes with Bitcoin for users and value.

528
00:55:31,091 --> 00:55:39,091
So we want to make it very permissionless and easy as much as possible for people to build on Bitcoin.

529
00:55:40,091 --> 00:55:44,091
Like that narrative, build on Bitcoin, that's something which Drivechain is all about.

530
00:55:45,091 --> 00:55:47,091
Drivechain would strengthen that narrative a lot.

531
00:55:48,091 --> 00:55:55,091
And also there used to be this narrative in Bitcoin that if there's any good idea out there, Bitcoin will adopt it.

532
00:55:55,091 --> 00:56:04,091
And what we see now is that there's hundreds of billions of dollars of ideas out there that have accrued value and they're not on Bitcoin.

533
00:56:05,091 --> 00:56:12,091
But if Bitcoin had better sidechains, then most or all of them might flow to Bitcoin, bringing all their users and value.

534
00:56:13,091 --> 00:56:15,091
So that's what we feel.

535
00:56:16,091 --> 00:56:17,091
How does that strike you?

536
00:56:19,091 --> 00:56:22,091
That all sounds pretty good to me.

537
00:56:22,091 --> 00:56:30,091
So I guess a little bit more technically, let's say a sidechain does fail or become unstable.

538
00:56:31,091 --> 00:56:34,091
What happens to people's pegged in Bitcoin?

539
00:56:35,091 --> 00:56:39,091
I guess how is it then pegged out?

540
00:56:40,091 --> 00:56:42,091
How does that whole mechanism work?

541
00:56:45,091 --> 00:56:47,091
Austin, do you want to talk for a bit?

542
00:56:48,091 --> 00:56:49,091
I want to talk people's ears off.

543
00:56:50,091 --> 00:56:51,091
It's always great to have more voices.

544
00:56:53,091 --> 00:57:02,091
If anyone else on the stage, Michael, any DriveChainers here want to share their takes, then please chime in and answer these excellent questions.

545
00:57:03,091 --> 00:57:05,091
Sure, I can speak to the peg out.

546
00:57:06,091 --> 00:57:08,091
So let's try to see if I can get it as simply as possible.

547
00:57:09,091 --> 00:57:16,091
Basically, three months worth of activity in the sidechain is hashed into one 32 byte hash.

548
00:57:16,091 --> 00:57:23,091
That hash is then included in the proposed withdrawal transaction on the Bitcoin mainchain.

549
00:57:24,091 --> 00:57:37,091
So as we know about hashes, you can hash the largest data set or you hash the Bible and it comes out to one hash.

550
00:57:38,091 --> 00:57:42,091
And then you add a single period to the end of it and it's a completely different hash.

551
00:57:42,091 --> 00:58:06,091
So very quickly, anyone who is so inclined can just at a moment's glance between the two hashes see whether or not the proposed withdrawal transaction is actually applicable to the sidechain or is the actual valid proposed withdrawal for the sidechain.

552
00:58:07,091 --> 00:58:19,091
And then that proposed withdrawal transaction needs something like 13,000 blocks to be mined on top of it.

553
00:58:20,091 --> 00:58:37,091
Basically, each block producer, I guess more accurately, when a block is found, it can include an upvote or an affirmative vote for that proposed transaction.

554
00:58:38,091 --> 00:58:43,091
It can abstain or it can downvote that proposed transaction.

555
00:58:44,091 --> 00:58:48,091
Those transactions expire after six months.

556
00:58:49,091 --> 00:59:01,091
And so you need 50% plus one of blocks in that six month period to upvote that transaction for that transaction to be considered valid.

557
00:59:02,091 --> 00:59:04,091
What do you think, Henry? Is that a good job?

558
00:59:05,091 --> 00:59:09,091
Yeah, that was better than I could do. That was excellent. Thank you for this.

559
00:59:09,091 --> 00:59:16,091
I've listened to Wicked a lot in his spaces. He's very technically minded. So I appreciate you chiming in there. It's very helpful.

560
00:59:19,091 --> 00:59:26,091
Wicked, please share more questions. We'd love to have your thoughts at this moment if you have any other things that come to mind.

561
00:59:27,091 --> 00:59:37,091
What's your take on what you've heard so far about Drivechain today and at other times? How do you feel about the project? What are your concerns or what do you like the most?

562
00:59:37,091 --> 00:59:51,091
Man, honestly, I don't quite know. I mean, that's why I'm here. Like I said, I haven't done very much research into it myself.

563
00:59:53,505 --> 01:00:02,005
I'm kind of like, you know, I'm one of those like, you know, NPCs that just kind of follows the crowd, whatever the hot topic is, admittedly.

564
01:00:02,005 --> 01:00:08,405
So, you know, but hopefully Drivechain will become the hot topic at some point.

565
01:00:08,405 --> 01:00:15,304
And then, you know, yeah, it's absolutely vital that it becomes the hot topic because we need the number to go up.

566
01:00:16,304 --> 01:00:30,804
Drivechain, I mean, I've been acquainted with it for many years, but it wasn't until I realized that this is the most important thing we can do to pump the coin that I really became obsessed because all the technical stuff is really cool.

567
01:00:30,804 --> 01:00:37,804
And, you know, maybe we can, you know, and there's a lot of truth to it.

568
01:00:38,304 --> 01:00:42,304
You know, Bitcoin can, you know, free humanity and blah, blah, blah.

569
01:00:42,304 --> 01:00:48,304
But the price is the most important metric of how far along we are to that goal.

570
01:00:48,304 --> 01:00:55,304
So whether or not you're purely financially motivated, which I think is absolutely fine.

571
01:00:55,804 --> 01:01:01,805
In fact, it's probably the best thing is that we get as many of those people involved as possible.

572
01:01:01,805 --> 01:01:10,805
Or, you know, you're very self-righteously motivated to, you know, bank the unbanked or whatever.

573
01:01:10,805 --> 01:01:11,805
I don't know.

574
01:01:11,805 --> 01:01:22,805
The price is still the most important metric on how far along we are to whatever goal you're trying to accomplish that got you into Bitcoin.

575
01:01:23,305 --> 01:01:35,305
And the higher the price goes, the more powerful the aggregate Bitcoin holding community is, the network is, it's absolutely pivotal.

576
01:01:35,305 --> 01:01:43,305
And I don't see anything that comes even close in terms from a technical perspective.

577
01:01:43,305 --> 01:01:49,305
I mean, you know, we can talk about socially or whatever, market wise, whatever.

578
01:01:49,805 --> 01:01:59,805
The best thing we can do technically to advance Bitcoin and make this number go up and get even richer is to add drivechain.

579
01:02:00,805 --> 01:02:14,805
It completely kicks the legs out from under whatever the narrative of whatever your shitcoin du jour claims to be for.

580
01:02:15,305 --> 01:02:20,305
Because now you can just completely copy it one to one on top of Bitcoin.

581
01:02:21,305 --> 01:02:31,305
So every developer becomes a Bitcoin developer and actually really, really absolutely pivotably important is that it aggregates Bitcoin liquidity.

582
01:02:32,305 --> 01:02:39,305
Aggregates, I mean to say it aggregates the liquidity of all of these shitcoin markets into Bitcoin.

583
01:02:39,805 --> 01:02:51,805
Probably not like one to one, but even if it just like takes 10% of all of the like net liquidity and adds it to Bitcoin market liquidity, that's a huge boost.

584
01:02:52,305 --> 01:03:12,305
Because the foundationally speaking, the like the foundation of Bitcoin's utility is in its liquidity, in your ability to use it to trade for very large amounts of value, whether that's in US dollars or services or whatever.

585
01:03:12,805 --> 01:03:16,805
We just need Bitcoin to continue to become more and more liquid.

586
01:03:17,805 --> 01:03:28,805
And this helps to steal at least some of that liquidity from those shitcoin markets and bring it into Bitcoin, which I think is extremely, extremely important.

587
01:03:29,805 --> 01:03:30,805
And it does the same thing with the security budget.

588
01:03:31,305 --> 01:03:44,305
Whatever some marginal percentage of all of the money that's being spent to secure these shitcoin networks will come back into Bitcoin, which is also extremely, extremely important.

589
01:03:45,305 --> 01:03:48,305
So, you know, I used to be like, you know, maybe this is like, I don't know.

590
01:03:49,305 --> 01:03:52,305
I just think now the only the most important thing is just to get the Bitcoin price up.

591
01:03:53,305 --> 01:03:58,305
We need Bitcoin to be the network to be worth trillions upon trillions upon trillions of dollars.

592
01:03:58,805 --> 01:04:03,805
And the more trillions of dollars it's worth, the more difficult it is going to be to defeat it.

593
01:04:05,805 --> 01:04:22,804
And the more we can leverage it in order to actually accomplish those high minded, self-righteous goals of, you know, banking the unbanked or censorship resistant payments or, you know, whatever, freeing humanity, whatever you want to say.

594
01:04:23,304 --> 01:04:28,304
I don't know. And we can also get all the people holding Bitcoin even richer.

595
01:04:29,304 --> 01:04:48,304
And I think on the whole, that's a good thing, because probably many and most of them have ideologically or more aligned with me than Jerome Powell or Janet Yellen or, you know, whatever that lady is from Europe.

596
01:04:48,804 --> 01:04:56,804
The European Central Bank, who I refuse to remember her name, any of those monsters.

597
01:05:00,804 --> 01:05:09,804
Yeah, I mean, I generally think that the argument, you know, of basically putting shit coins on their back foot is a pretty good one.

598
01:05:10,304 --> 01:05:18,304
Right. Like instead of it being a defensive argument saying, you know, like, you know, shit coins are XYZ and they're kind of pointless.

599
01:05:19,304 --> 01:05:32,304
You can just be like, well, you can build that on Bitcoin. So why are you building a shit coin and shine a light on the fact that they're doing it just to, you know, dump on retail or make a quick buck or whatever?

600
01:05:32,804 --> 01:05:43,804
Which is kind of like part of what we're arguing already, but then it becomes abundantly clear if it's possible to build it on Bitcoin without needing a separate token.

601
01:05:44,804 --> 01:05:51,804
Because right now they have plausible deniability, but with the post drivechain, it's all just threadbare.

602
01:05:52,804 --> 01:06:00,804
The fact that the only utility of a shit coin that remains is just to enrich the founders.

603
01:06:01,304 --> 01:06:13,304
Yeah. One of the questions I have. So with sidechains enabled by drivechain, is the peg always one set to one set or can that be tinkered with?

604
01:06:13,804 --> 01:06:30,804
Well, the peg is a market. Oh, there's maybe two questions you could be asking here. One is like, could you have when you move the coins to the sidechain, like they hypothecate with like added decimal places or something?

605
01:06:31,804 --> 01:06:38,804
Or the other thing is like, would the market price it out of a one to one peg?

606
01:06:39,304 --> 01:06:49,304
So two things. And both are kind of related to the first option there. But like, yeah, could you have more decimals? So could you have a sidechain that has like millisets?

607
01:06:49,804 --> 01:07:10,804
Would be question number one. And then question number two is, could you have a sidechain that has inflation such that you do have a market that's basically accounting for whatever the inflated supply is on the sidechain and then aggregating the coins back to their equivalent Bitcoin value when you peg out?

608
01:07:11,304 --> 01:07:34,304
Well, for the first question, I think is you definitely could. You can just like if you had an ETH clone or something where, you know, or some sort of sidechain that facilitated micropayments, maybe you would need further divisibility and you'd have put millisets or whatever.

609
01:07:34,804 --> 01:07:42,804
That actually doesn't change the actual denomination any. It just adds more divisibility.

610
01:07:43,804 --> 01:07:45,804
Repeat the second question again.

611
01:07:46,804 --> 01:07:54,804
So maybe the second one could be like a time variable that inflates the supply over time or something.

612
01:07:55,304 --> 01:08:11,304
Well, as far as the Bitcoin that's on the sidechain goes, according to the rule set, that should only be allowed via deposits. So I don't think so.

613
01:08:11,804 --> 01:08:38,804
I guess what it would be is like, you know, you peg into the sidechain, right? And depending on the time you peg in, it would facilitate how many of the sidechain tokens you receive. So the longer you wait to peg in, you know, the more of the Bitcoin sidechain tokens you receive. So in effect, there's like an inflation rate basically.

614
01:08:39,304 --> 01:08:42,304
It's like there's zero inflation ever because of the follow-up.

615
01:08:43,304 --> 01:08:46,304
On-chain, right. On-chain there's zero inflation. But in the sidechain, could you?

616
01:08:47,304 --> 01:09:07,304
I mean, maybe somebody who creates the sidechain code could write something in there where they can like steal a percentage of deposits or something. But that's the only way I could see that like technically working. And I don't see why anybody would want to deposit into a chain where value is taken from you.

617
01:09:07,804 --> 01:09:10,804
Yeah, because it's a really, really good idea.

618
01:09:10,804 --> 01:09:40,304
Well, somebody could just copy it and remove it. It'd be like Zcash. Zcash essentially has that kind of with the dev tax and you've created a Bitcoin sidechain or a zSide, which was, I believe, the first kind of in-production sidechain that was created that Paul gave his stamp of approval for.

619
01:09:41,304 --> 01:09:57,304
And that includes no dev tax. And if somebody were to like create a clone saying, oh, we're going to make one that's even more similar to the actual Zcash because we're going to steal some of the money. I don't think that would be anybody would find that preferable.

620
01:09:58,304 --> 01:10:07,804
Yeah, I mean, I think I think the correct answer is technically speaking, you can do all sorts of stuff. It's just would anyone actually.

621
01:10:08,804 --> 01:10:27,304
Would that would that. Well, there's two questions. Like, would anybody actually want to use it? But but also would would miners allocate to some like really extractive or very, I don't know, subpar sidechain in that in that perspective?

622
01:10:28,304 --> 01:10:51,804
Would miners allocated a slot? Because the thing about the sidechains is that that they need to be given like a slot so that numbered one through 256 so that the entire network can like be in agreement on which sidechain is which or, you know, I guess that's kind of an easy way to explain it.

623
01:10:53,304 --> 01:10:55,804
So there's 256 maximum slots.

624
01:10:56,804 --> 01:11:16,304
There is, but technically there's infinite maximum slots because you can add 256 more should should it fill up, you kind of just do a second soft fork like you, you do a second dip 300 fork and then two, you can do 256 more slots if you need it.

625
01:11:16,304 --> 01:11:25,804
I don't know if that would ever be needed. And also, each sidechain could have sidechains or, you know, it could get really meta.

626
01:11:25,804 --> 01:11:48,304
Well said. Just adding to that, if when you have a two way peg wicket, it's like the gold market. As an analogy, there are gold coins and there are gold bars. And the two way peg between those two commodities, gold coins and gold bars, because they are distinct things, is the two way peg is the fact that people.

627
01:11:49,304 --> 01:12:04,804
One make it the other and go back so bars can be melted into coins and coins can be melted down into bars and that two way peg causes the two to always trade one for one.

628
01:12:04,804 --> 01:12:22,804
The two to always trade one for one. So because there's a two way peg between bars and coins, they trade one for one almost all the time. If they didn't trade one for one, anybody would arbitrage. They would convert one into the other to capture the higher purchasing power of the more valuable one.

629
01:12:22,804 --> 01:12:39,304
The same exact mechanism of economic incentives would occur in drivechain, where the synthetic Bitcoin on the sidechain is going to trade one for one with the main chain layer one Bitcoin all the time.

630
01:12:39,304 --> 01:13:03,804
If they deviate, then professionals would peg out or peg in and force up the value of the less valuable side of the peg. And this arbitrage will occur all the time. It occurs in other markets, too. In the financial markets, there are professionals who are maintaining two way pegs in a thousand different markets and they make money that way.

631
01:13:04,804 --> 01:13:25,304
They perform a service for the ordinary user. The ordinary users in drivechain wouldn't be going through the peg. They would be swapping on the secondary market instantly. They wouldn't be waiting for any peg. So it's like the futures market where there's a lot of professionals who engage in the futures market performing a service for the rest of society.

632
01:13:26,304 --> 01:13:38,804
Right. Or just like liquid Bitcoin. I mean, if we want an example that is already here. No one actually pegs in and out with liquid Bitcoin. They just use a secondary market to get some if they want to use it.

633
01:13:39,804 --> 01:14:01,304
You're exactly right. There's a two way peg there. Of course, in the drivechain view, we believe that the reason why federated Bitcoin sidechains haven't seen enormous adoption is that there is a socially selected set of people involved in controlling the Bitcoin sent to that two way peg.

634
01:14:02,304 --> 01:14:23,804
So it's trusted. Same trust model is Coinbase or Gemini, where if the parties were found and coerced or colluded. I mean, I think they're all good people at those projects. But in theory, in theory, if they were colluding or coerced, then the Bitcoin could be robbed or destroyed.

635
01:14:23,804 --> 01:14:44,304
So therefore, what we want is sidechains that are designed to be as robust as Bitcoin itself. Sidechains that are fully peer to peer, where anyone can participate by mining, can participate in the security model. And therefore, no one is privileged. That's the essence of drivechain is that no one is a privileged party. It's just like Bitcoin, fully peer to peer.

636
01:14:45,304 --> 01:15:06,804
So then we're assuming here that instead of trusting the federation to keep the peg in the models we have now, like with Liquid, we're trusting that the majority of the miners will do it, right? Like we're putting the trust onto the miners, which is kind of, I mean, we're already trusting them in a sense anyway.

637
01:15:07,804 --> 01:15:29,804
Yes, that's exactly right. As Satoshi said at the very beginning of Bitcoin, he wrote a number of times, including in the white paper, that Bitcoin depends on the majority of hash rate being controlled by honest parties. If they were to collude to attack Bitcoin, then there would be a 51 percent hostile, perpetual, devastating attack.

638
01:15:30,804 --> 01:15:55,804
So it's important that Bitcoin become massive and the miners have extremely high revenue forever from transaction fees. And that's one of the really exciting angles of drivechain that has developed in more recent years is there has been a growth of understanding that merged mining is a powerful solution to Bitcoin's transaction fee reliant economic security model.

639
01:15:55,804 --> 01:16:10,804
In other words, we want to have a source of miner revenue from transaction fees be very high. And if we don't have that, then in the long run, Bitcoin's miner revenue would fall as a result of halvings of the subsidy.

640
01:16:10,804 --> 01:16:36,804
And right now, the vast majority of transaction fees are paid to other blockchain miners or validators. All these transaction fees, like over 90 percent of all transaction fees on blockchains are not going to Bitcoin miners. They're going to Ethereum people or people on other chains. So we want to gather fees from every blockchain and bring them to Bitcoin miners and drivechain would do that potentially.

641
01:16:37,804 --> 01:16:46,804
That's pretty interesting. So where do you get that? I guess where do you get that number from? You're saying 90 percent?

642
01:16:46,804 --> 01:17:11,805
Yeah. You can go to a blockchain fee monitoring website. There's a bunch of them that are popular and you can see where are the fees paid every day. Is Bitcoin number one or is it number five or is it number 10? Where are all these fees going? Like Ethereum has massive fee revenue. Every day people are paying to use different applications on Ethereum. Bitcoin generally most days I think has less.

643
01:17:12,805 --> 01:17:38,805
Yeah. You know what? That's interesting. So right now, fees on average, I think the past four year average has been hovering around about four or five percent of total block reward relative to the subsidy. And so if we did get all of that fee revenue from all blockchains and we effectively 10x what we have now.

644
01:17:38,805 --> 01:18:02,805
And that would mean we'd basically be at a one to one fee versus subsidy at the moment. And then you have the subsidy in a year and then all of a sudden 75 percent would be, well, it'd be, let's see, what's the math there? You have one, keep the other one the same, then two thirds would be from fees, right? And then of course, another halving would make it even more. But yeah, that's interesting.

645
01:18:02,805 --> 01:18:31,805
Yeah. So cryptofees.info is the website. There are others too. It's always good to check more than one to make sure you're getting good information. But cryptofees.info is saying Ethereum is getting about eight million in fees per day and Bitcoin is getting about one million in fees per day. Roughly 7.8 million versus 1.1 million. And you can see the averages. So what it looks like is that Ethereum has a multiple of the Bitcoin fees.

646
01:18:32,805 --> 01:18:56,805
So it would be very good for Bitcoin to have more fees for its miners. It would actually increase the value of Bitcoin probably, because one of the main ways that the altcoiners criticize Bitcoin and try to undermine Bitcoin's narratives and popularity is the altcoiners frequently, like there are some ethmaxies who tweet every day to over 100,000 followers.

647
01:18:57,805 --> 01:19:19,805
They tweet like Evan Van Ness or Justin Bonds or others. Almost every day they have a tweet saying, for like the hundredth time, they say Bitcoin is going to have to do inflation. And they point to the fact that OG Bitcoin Core developer Peter Todd has tweeted in support of this and has written essays about why it should be explored and considered.

648
01:19:20,805 --> 01:19:41,805
So, you know, adding tail issuance to Bitcoin, which as drive chainers, we think that would be devastating to Bitcoin's most powerful value proposition is absolute scarcity. So a fork that would introduce tail issuance that would continue the subsidy in perpetuity would undermine the prospect of a high real return for Bitcoin holders.

649
01:19:41,805 --> 01:19:51,805
As the world demands more Bitcoin, we don't want the supply of Bitcoin to continue growing forever. So we don't want to have to do inflation on Bitcoin.

650
01:19:52,833 --> 01:19:56,993
But we need the miners to have high revenue to secure the proof of work blockchain.

651
01:19:57,313 --> 01:20:01,073
So the only alternative is to boost transaction fees.

652
01:20:02,073 --> 01:20:07,473
Or, you know, as Jason Lowery has tweeted, have the government tax people to pay the Bitcoin miners.

653
01:20:07,753 --> 01:20:11,193
But I don't think taxing is good, nor inflation.

654
01:20:11,232 --> 01:20:22,033
The best result is a free market endogenous value creating solution such as merged mining, which Satoshi himself explicitly invented and

655
01:20:22,033 --> 01:20:27,553
endorsed. He said we would collect fees from every network in the world, increasing the total strength.

656
01:20:28,272 --> 01:20:33,873
So this idea was at the start of Bitcoin and Bitcoin's own creator supported it.

657
01:20:36,033 --> 01:20:45,753
Yeah, I mean, the way I see it, so, you know, I mean, I'm of the belief that Bitcoin is probably going to succeed regardless.

658
01:20:45,873 --> 01:20:59,112
And the thing I'm most worried about, honestly, is like, is like, does Bitcoin succeed as a network that is only meant for, you know, the top 10 million richest entities in the world?

659
01:20:59,152 --> 01:21:12,873
And they're the ones who are paying all the fees necessary to secure the network because, you know, this fixed supply asset is just continuously increasing in value that they're, you know, it's worth paying those fees.

660
01:21:12,993 --> 01:21:16,752
But it closes out everyone else who can't afford to pay those fees.

661
01:21:16,833 --> 01:21:25,313
Or does it become a network that, you know, we figure out ways to allow, you know, the whole world to use it.

662
01:21:25,472 --> 01:21:26,472
Right. And so.

663
01:21:27,792 --> 01:21:41,432
I don't know, like I'm, I guess, you know, what I've been trying to understand, you know, the past couple of years when I really started to look more into Bitcoin and I am new here, by the way, I haven't been around for very long.

664
01:21:43,673 --> 01:21:52,792
But, yeah, what I'm trying to understand is like, how, how does Bitcoin scale to the world without, you know, fucking up everything?

665
01:21:54,193 --> 01:21:58,633
Right. Like, like, we know, we know one way that we can't do it.

666
01:21:58,752 --> 01:22:00,873
Right. We're not going to increase block size.

667
01:22:01,152 --> 01:22:04,712
I think that's been pretty much proven that is a bad idea.

668
01:22:05,352 --> 01:22:06,473
So how else do we do it?

669
01:22:06,792 --> 01:22:08,712
Do we do it on sidechains?

670
01:22:09,113 --> 01:22:12,113
Do we do it on, you know, second layers?

671
01:22:13,593 --> 01:22:18,393
Obviously, you know, lightning isn't like a means of scaling self custody.

672
01:22:18,393 --> 01:22:19,712
So that's not really going to work.

673
01:22:20,233 --> 01:22:23,233
Scales payments, custodial payments, I think.

674
01:22:23,272 --> 01:22:25,313
But like, yeah, I don't know.

675
01:22:25,352 --> 01:22:29,873
So so, you know, like, I think sidechains is an interesting proposition in this regard.

676
01:22:32,033 --> 01:22:38,473
Just curious. I'm just curious, like, you know, and this is kind of I don't want to derail the conversation away from sidechains.

677
01:22:38,473 --> 01:22:40,753
But like, what is what is your thought on ARK?

678
01:22:41,313 --> 01:22:47,792
I don't know if you've looked into that as much, but like, that's kind of been on the forefront of a lot of people's minds.

679
01:22:47,873 --> 01:22:55,552
That's a great question. Before we turn to that, I just want to briefly mention the tweet I just posted in the nest from Adam Back this year writing.

680
01:22:56,233 --> 01:22:58,192
And you can see it in the nest at the top of this room.

681
01:22:58,673 --> 01:23:02,552
He wrote, I think we're going to need a big peer to peer sidechain.

682
01:23:02,873 --> 01:23:06,912
I think we're going to need a big peer to peer sidechain for the next billion users to benefit.

683
01:23:07,513 --> 01:23:08,992
And he goes on to talk about Bitcoin.

684
01:23:09,552 --> 01:23:16,833
The point is that as drive chainers, we believe that large blocks are an important part of Bitcoin's ecosystem in the future.

685
01:23:17,072 --> 01:23:19,432
Large block sidechains, not main chain.

686
01:23:19,992 --> 01:23:26,632
In fact, we have a favorable view on, you know, the discussion to decrease the main chain block size.

687
01:23:27,113 --> 01:23:37,352
But our priority is simply enabling sidechains such as Adam Back's description of a large block clone of Bitcoin is the same as Bitcoin, but it has larger blocks.

688
01:23:37,593 --> 01:23:47,233
And that would enable people to opt in completely voluntarily if they want to, to a less decentralized but more scalable version of Bitcoin.

689
01:23:48,352 --> 01:23:51,833
And then get out of it whenever they want to come back to main chain when they're finished.

690
01:23:51,992 --> 01:23:58,233
You know, like you would keep some money there for paying your coffee bill, but then you would keep maybe your savings on main chain, things like that.

691
01:23:58,552 --> 01:24:00,712
So, yeah, large blocks are part of the scaling roadmap.

692
01:24:01,033 --> 01:24:04,352
We believe this is essential for Bitcoin's long term future.

693
01:24:05,113 --> 01:24:10,352
Like if we can't onboard a billion people tomorrow, non-custodially, we won't.

694
01:24:10,833 --> 01:24:17,632
They'll onboard either to altcoins or they'll onboard to Coinbase and then Bitcoin won't be succeeding as a peer to peer system.

695
01:24:18,592 --> 01:24:20,032
But, yeah, thanks for asking about ARK.

696
01:24:20,072 --> 01:24:21,912
We're happy to like talk about that as well.

697
01:24:22,592 --> 01:24:29,433
Maybe before we go to that, I actually think, you know, keeping it on sidechains is probably a good focus for this room.

698
01:24:29,433 --> 01:24:40,792
But so if we're talking about making a sidechain with, you know, big blocks and we're saying it's less decentralized than, you know, main chain.

699
01:24:44,592 --> 01:24:53,312
You know, I mean, basically the idea there is that whoever is maintaining that ledger will essentially be in control of it.

700
01:24:53,352 --> 01:24:59,192
Right. I mean, if there's only a certain amount of nodes running for that sidechain, then what's the difference?

701
01:25:00,113 --> 01:25:08,273
Between that and then just having like, you know, Coinbase with their internal ledger, like what's the difference there?

702
01:25:10,673 --> 01:25:17,513
I missed the first part of that question, but I think was the question like if there's only four sidechain nodes, what's the difference between that and Coinbase?

703
01:25:19,393 --> 01:25:28,872
Right. Yeah. Like I guess so in the context of scaling to billions, if we're scaling to billions who are paying for coffees on their sidechain and the transaction set is just,

704
01:25:28,872 --> 01:25:30,673
you know, exploding, right?

705
01:25:30,673 --> 01:25:38,032
Like it's basically only super, super technical industrial scale, you know, people will be able to run nodes for it.

706
01:25:38,433 --> 01:25:42,792
Then what's the difference between that and then just having like a centralized ledger like Coinbase?

707
01:25:43,273 --> 01:25:47,153
Yeah, it's all about it's not about the quantity of nodes.

708
01:25:47,153 --> 01:25:48,312
It's all about the cost.

709
01:25:48,592 --> 01:25:58,113
So a regular person, if you work at Coinbase, you know, like you can't if you don't work at Coinbase, you cannot run the Coinbase ledger.

710
01:25:58,113 --> 01:25:59,513
The cost is basically infinite.

711
01:26:01,472 --> 01:26:14,912
And so but but it so it hasn't if there's only if the nodes are so expensive that only like three or four people in the entire world could plausibly run a full node, then that would be pretty bad.

712
01:26:15,553 --> 01:26:19,192
But that would still be kind of better than the Coinbase case where it's just literally impossible.

713
01:26:19,352 --> 01:26:22,032
You know, like Bill Gates cannot run.

714
01:26:22,433 --> 01:26:28,352
He could spend all the money he likes, but he you know, he doesn't he's not in charge of the Coinbase, you know, ledger.

715
01:26:28,792 --> 01:26:30,833
What you'd have to do is buy Coinbase, basically.

716
01:26:30,833 --> 01:26:36,312
So that's like if the buy 51 percent of Coinbase and then install himself as CEO or something.

717
01:26:36,713 --> 01:26:37,792
So that's like the cost.

718
01:26:38,872 --> 01:26:41,752
Yes. All sidechains would be permissionless, right?

719
01:26:41,752 --> 01:26:43,113
It's what we're saying. Yeah.

720
01:26:43,153 --> 01:26:48,872
The big three hundred permission, permissionlessly able to run nodes for them, I guess is what I meant.

721
01:26:49,113 --> 01:26:57,433
Yeah, exactly. The it's just open source software and there's no no no like identity has been hard coded in there.

722
01:26:57,433 --> 01:26:58,713
It's just software.

723
01:27:00,433 --> 01:27:15,032
So, yeah, but the good news is, even though people are quite right to be concerned about the cost of running a full node, and I wrote an essay measuring decentralization back in 2015 September about that.

724
01:27:16,032 --> 01:27:17,553
And that's key.

725
01:27:17,592 --> 01:27:18,713
That's absolutely key.

726
01:27:18,993 --> 01:27:25,192
But even though that is absolutely key, first of all, sidechains don't affect the layer one node cost at all.

727
01:27:25,393 --> 01:27:28,792
But of course, the users of the sidechain have their own nodes that they have to run.

728
01:27:29,072 --> 01:27:35,352
Even, you know, like I have like looked it up and it's honestly to run even a one gigabyte node.

729
01:27:36,153 --> 01:27:42,912
You know, the bandwidth we set aside the fact that you may want to run it over Tor or something, which is sort of not possible today.

730
01:27:42,912 --> 01:27:53,312
But if we just for we just do our little napkin math, a one gigabyte node, which is not what you know, a one gigabyte node is like, you know, we would not need that for many, many years.

731
01:27:53,352 --> 01:27:59,993
We'd start off with like one eight megabyte node that grows geometrically to like 800 megabytes over 10 years or something.

732
01:27:59,993 --> 01:28:02,513
And then when that one fills up, we just have to start a second one off.

733
01:28:02,553 --> 01:28:05,433
We'd have like eight or nine thunder sidechain.

734
01:28:05,433 --> 01:28:11,113
So this is just napkin math of just taking like an utterly extreme point far away.

735
01:28:12,233 --> 01:28:19,673
And it's sort of saying like if we had a one gigabyte node, which is like honestly as big as anyone could imagine, gigabyte blocks every 10 minutes.

736
01:28:21,153 --> 01:28:31,872
Even that, you know, I did some numbers in my post in the appendix and I researched I looked up what, you know, what software and hardware Jamison Lopp used to his node tests.

737
01:28:31,913 --> 01:28:33,192
And I looked up what is all this cost?

738
01:28:33,192 --> 01:28:34,473
What is the bandwidth cost?

739
01:28:34,953 --> 01:28:36,192
Where's the hard drive cost?

740
01:28:36,232 --> 01:28:38,872
You know, I looked up even the electrical cost.

741
01:28:39,713 --> 01:28:45,672
It's really like, you know, it's like it's like whatever, like basically less than two thousand dollars to get started.

742
01:28:45,672 --> 01:28:48,393
And then like a couple hundred dollars a month.

743
01:28:48,953 --> 01:28:50,992
So that's for a one gigabyte node.

744
01:28:51,672 --> 01:28:58,593
You know, if you add in a bunch of, you know, I like to multiply everything by two, you know, to like margin of error.

745
01:28:58,752 --> 01:29:04,153
So, so that's high, but that's, you know, that's far from something where only four people in the world can afford it.

746
01:29:04,153 --> 01:29:12,432
It's, it's, you know, and it's something that if push came to shove, you know, like plenty of people would would have it.

747
01:29:12,432 --> 01:29:23,913
You know, if we lived in a world, this type of world, obviously, Coinbase, Kraken, BitGo, Blockchain.info, like all those people would pay that, you know, that's like...

748
01:29:25,513 --> 01:29:27,273
Isn't BSV one gigabyte?

749
01:29:28,153 --> 01:29:29,273
I don't really remember.

750
01:29:29,273 --> 01:29:32,713
I think they tried to get rid of the middle limit completely.

751
01:29:32,872 --> 01:29:44,632
They, Bitcoin SV, unfortunately, is, I liked when we had this, the Bitcoin Cash split, because it was very bad in many ways.

752
01:29:44,953 --> 01:29:50,192
But one thing that was kind of interesting was that it gave us a little bit of a free experiment at first.

753
01:29:50,713 --> 01:29:55,112
But unfortunately, Bitcoin Cash didn't do a very good job of competing.

754
01:29:55,112 --> 01:29:56,312
I think competition is good.

755
01:29:56,473 --> 01:30:05,473
But the problem with BSV is it's so, it has so much baggage, that it is not even really a real software project.

756
01:30:05,473 --> 01:30:08,112
There's almost nothing anyone can learn from it about anything.

757
01:30:08,913 --> 01:30:16,192
Yeah, because I was gonna ask, like, you know, why is it that it seems like, well, they only got like three Node runners left, right?

758
01:30:16,192 --> 01:30:17,513
So like, why is it that?

759
01:30:17,513 --> 01:30:22,393
This happened, I think, with Solana, similarly, there was like, down to the last node, or something.

760
01:30:22,833 --> 01:30:25,112
It's all just run by the Solana Foundation or something.

761
01:30:25,112 --> 01:30:27,872
And they do like an Infura, they sell API access to it.

762
01:30:28,033 --> 01:30:46,953
So that would be, at that point, it is the same to answer, that's where it becomes basically the same as, but what I'm saying is, if you're just a little smart, you can, you can get one gigabyte, you should be able to get something that survives for much less.

763
01:30:46,953 --> 01:30:58,992
And I wrote a different post called, I think it's called the small transactions, the actual size of Bitcoin transactions are almost twice as big, for no reason, we can actually cut, we can cut them in half.

764
01:30:59,072 --> 01:31:04,872
Satoshi made just some of these funny decisions, like he has like a four byte version number that no one uses.

765
01:31:05,992 --> 01:31:16,872
So there's a lot of decisions, you can basically cut them kind of in half, which we would do on the specialized large block sidechain, and you can do things parallelization and other things.

766
01:31:17,953 --> 01:31:26,432
So I think there's, while it's true, we should be obsessed with keeping the layer one block size small, and layer one node as easy to run as possible.

767
01:31:26,872 --> 01:31:33,872
It is, it is not really the case like that the current block size limit is, you know, the upper limit.

768
01:31:34,913 --> 01:31:38,033
Mr. Big Code has his hand up, he's had his hand up for a while.

769
01:31:39,033 --> 01:31:48,713
Yeah, well, I love this conversation about miners and what is the connection with the drivechains and what can bring in the future.

770
01:31:49,432 --> 01:32:07,992
And what I think, I mean, this is all from experience and following and all these years, like, what this can can bring through subsidies and subsidies to fees to the miners is actually a lot of money.

771
01:32:08,112 --> 01:32:23,473
If those fees and everybody comes, you know, on the drivechain and create sidechains and all the fees go to miners, we need to know that the miners will, the number of miners will increase.

772
01:32:23,953 --> 01:32:41,793
And I think with a good subsidy through fees, the hash power will increase, but will not be kind of adding more miners to get more profit or more Bitcoin or stuff like that.

773
01:32:41,793 --> 01:32:55,393
So, we'll be kind of increasing the hash rate, but even if the block size of the main chain is small, then the blocks will be mined quicker.

774
01:32:55,393 --> 01:33:16,672
And also, this opens another area of mining, I mean, using the miners for heating and using the, for example, sidechains for securing other networks like electricity grids or broadband networks and stuff like that.

775
01:33:17,232 --> 01:33:25,872
So, I think drivechains will bring so much utility to the world, not only to Bitcoin.

776
01:33:26,432 --> 01:33:27,953
I appreciate your enthusiasm.

777
01:33:28,192 --> 01:33:33,353
When there is a higher hash rate, the blocks are not mined quicker because of the difficulty adjustment.

778
01:33:33,593 --> 01:33:36,513
But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying.

779
01:33:37,473 --> 01:33:46,793
And regarding block size in general, it's just one example of an infinite number of ways in which people in the Bitcoin community might disagree.

780
01:33:47,393 --> 01:33:54,992
Drivechain at its core, originally and most importantly, is about solving disagreements in the Bitcoin community.

781
01:33:56,192 --> 01:33:58,872
And this expresses itself in many ways.

782
01:33:58,872 --> 01:34:08,273
The fact that this problem hasn't been solved, the fact that we don't have a multitude of successful sidechains, it has many different symptoms.

783
01:34:09,072 --> 01:34:19,432
One of the symptoms is the growth of toxic Bitcoin maximalism, which is a cope that tries to deny the validity of innovation and experimentation outside of Bitcoin.

784
01:34:19,793 --> 01:34:38,833
Another symptom of the lack of drivechain is the low fees paid to Bitcoin miners and the knowledge that everyone has with every passing day, when the fees continue to be low, that in the far future, Bitcoin might need to resort to inflation like Peter Todd and others suggest.

785
01:34:40,153 --> 01:34:44,033
And there's other symptoms, the growth of altcoins, the success of Ethereum.

786
01:34:45,033 --> 01:34:53,833
But if drivechain were adopted, there's a possibility that all of the good innovation would flow to Bitcoin and then the whole world would more rapidly Bitcoin eyes.

787
01:34:54,833 --> 01:35:14,033
So we believe that the success of Bitcoin might depend on the success of a sidechain ecosystem that would reduce the infighting within the Bitcoin community and enable experimentation and innovation to happen on Bitcoin sidechains in a way that boosts Bitcoin's value and fees.

788
01:35:14,833 --> 01:35:23,713
So, Wicked, I appreciate your optimism and your view that Bitcoin will succeed with or without this change.

789
01:35:24,713 --> 01:35:37,833
But. For many people in the drivechain community, they arrive at a more stark outlook, which is that Bitcoin, although it's number one today, will not necessarily be number one.

790
01:35:38,833 --> 01:35:41,833
And as Bitcoiners often say, we're so early, right?

791
01:35:41,833 --> 01:35:42,833
We're very early.

792
01:35:42,833 --> 01:35:45,833
Well, the fact that we're so early is sort of a double edged sword.

793
01:35:45,833 --> 01:35:51,833
Like there's no guarantee that Bitcoin will be number one in the coming years.

794
01:35:51,833 --> 01:35:53,833
I mean, the altcoins are growing all the time.

795
01:35:53,833 --> 01:35:56,833
There could be a really good idea tomorrow that someone has.

796
01:35:56,833 --> 01:35:59,833
Do you think that person is going to launch it as a Bitcoin sidechain?

797
01:35:59,833 --> 01:36:06,833
Do you think they'll just stay within the Bitcoin community and wait five years for their idea to be finally adopted?

798
01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:10,833
Or would they launch an altcoin tomorrow easily?

799
01:36:10,833 --> 01:36:12,833
Or would they build it on Ethereum?

800
01:36:12,833 --> 01:36:21,833
So we think that Bitcoin's number one, but it won't necessarily always be there unless we focus hard on more innovation and experimentation and less on toxicity.

801
01:36:22,833 --> 01:36:29,833
Yeah, I mean, I guess this gets into maybe a conversation that is just very speculative.

802
01:36:29,833 --> 01:36:44,833
But the way I see it is Bitcoin's really the only cryptocurrency that has had a distribution phase in the beginning that was not driven by greed.

803
01:36:45,833 --> 01:36:53,833
And I think that's what plagues all new cryptocurrencies now, even if their creators don't mean for it to happen.

804
01:36:53,833 --> 01:37:01,832
If there was a really good idea for a new crypto and, you know, let's say the creator doesn't do a massive pre-mine, what's going to happen?

805
01:37:01,832 --> 01:37:05,832
You know, everyone who's in the know is going to say, well, that's that's a great idea.

806
01:37:05,832 --> 01:37:07,832
And they're going to buy up all the fucking coin.

807
01:37:07,832 --> 01:37:12,832
Right. So then immediately it already becomes centralized.

808
01:37:12,832 --> 01:37:21,832
So I think right off the bat, you know, this is part of the reason why Bitcoin keeps winning is because it had this initial phase of distribution, an initial phase of discovery.

809
01:37:21,832 --> 01:37:24,832
That is, you know, you can't replicate.

810
01:37:24,832 --> 01:37:28,832
Right. Like you literally cannot replicate it as hard as you try to.

811
01:37:29,832 --> 01:37:38,832
You know, you could have the best idea in the world, but you're still going to have a centralized shitcoin because the people in the know are going to buy it all right off the start.

812
01:37:38,832 --> 01:37:42,832
Or you're just going to pre-mine a bunch of it for yourself because, you know, it's the best idea.

813
01:37:43,832 --> 01:37:52,832
So, I mean, this is part of the reason why, you know, I think you can't really beat Bitcoin no matter how good your idea is.

814
01:37:52,832 --> 01:37:55,832
Right. Like it's just you can't really make I don't know.

815
01:37:55,832 --> 01:37:57,832
And again, this is subjective. Right.

816
01:37:57,832 --> 01:38:00,832
I guess it's just what I think.

817
01:38:00,832 --> 01:38:03,832
But I mean, that's that's kind of the way I see it.

818
01:38:03,832 --> 01:38:08,832
But, you know, all that said, I do want Bitcoin to succeed in every way that we're talking about.

819
01:38:08,832 --> 01:38:16,832
And I especially want Bitcoin to succeed as, you know, a global money that everyone can use.

820
01:38:16,832 --> 01:38:38,832
And I think what I've been struggling with the past couple of years, you know, as I've kind of explored this space and learned more and more about Bitcoin is that it does seem like unless we do something, it's going to become, you know, really money for the haves and have nots are going to be using Satoshi denominated eCash or IOUs.

821
01:38:38,832 --> 01:38:51,832
And I don't want to see that world. Right. Like I don't want to see a world where it's the rich people on their yachts, you know, giving the peasants some floaty life life toys to play with.

822
01:38:51,832 --> 01:38:55,832
You can yank them at any time. That's not a that's not a very fun world.

823
01:38:55,832 --> 01:39:17,832
So, you know, anyways, I mean, I do. Yeah. So with all that said, I think, I don't know, the more and more I think about drivechains and and as I said, I'm thinking about it for very long, but it does seem like a really interesting and good idea and definitely one worth exploring more and more and more.

824
01:39:17,832 --> 01:39:23,832
I think, you know, it's obviously been around a long time. A lot of people thought about it for a very long time.

825
01:39:23,832 --> 01:39:47,832
One of the things that I'm curious about, though, like why? So in your opinion, why is it that it hasn't really caught on? Like, why? What is it that you know, what's what's the most contentious aspect of it that makes people reluctant about it? Because like, that's what I don't really understand is it sounds really good. Right. Sounds like a really good idea. So why? Why is it taking so long?

826
01:39:48,598 --> 01:39:57,598
There have been some ideas that were like there are some criticisms that were put forward by some thinkers in the community that criticize drivechain, which we think are incorrect.

827
01:39:57,958 --> 01:39:59,438
So that was one reason.

828
01:39:59,798 --> 01:40:14,237
Another reason that's more of a layman phenomenon is throughout the Bitcoin community, there hasn't been a sense of urgency to do a major change in recent years as Bitcoin hasn't had the threat of a flippening recently.

829
01:40:14,278 --> 01:40:20,358
So for the last five years, Ethereum hasn't hit an all time high in market cap against Bitcoin.

830
01:40:21,277 --> 01:40:29,358
So there hasn't been a sense of urgency and people therefore get complacent when they're first when they're winning a race that are going to try to run even faster.

831
01:40:29,838 --> 01:40:30,957
So that's one reason.

832
01:40:31,918 --> 01:40:48,637
So it's a combination of just psychology and the fact that the competition hasn't been good enough to threaten superficially Bitcoin, but we feel that structurally it's imperative for the success of sound money and freedom that Bitcoin be as best as possible.

833
01:40:48,637 --> 01:41:00,957
So even if there weren't any altcoins in existence, even if Ethereum and all the altcoins didn't exist, there would still be as strong a case for Bitcoin to have advanced sidechains.

834
01:41:01,678 --> 01:41:03,798
So this is not about preventing the flippening.

835
01:41:04,518 --> 01:41:07,758
This is about making Bitcoin as good as it possibly can be.

836
01:41:08,197 --> 01:41:12,078
And as a side effect, Bitcoin would crush the altcoins.

837
01:41:12,637 --> 01:41:21,917
So even if there aren't any altcoins and there's no sense of urgency about losing a race to them, we still have to win the race of rapidly Bitcoin is in the world.

838
01:41:22,597 --> 01:41:24,597
That's that's the only way to get sound money.

839
01:41:24,597 --> 01:41:27,118
Fiatjaf. The creator of Nostr has tweeted about this.

840
01:41:27,518 --> 01:41:30,877
Bitcoin has to grow as fast as we possibly can have it grow.

841
01:41:31,078 --> 01:41:32,158
We don't want slow growth.

842
01:41:32,197 --> 01:41:37,118
We want a blitz scale and cover the whole world where everyone's using Bitcoin as soon as possible.

843
01:41:37,518 --> 01:41:55,438
And that way, as Friedrich Hayek said in the 80s, the only way we'll ever rest the government's control of bit of money away from the government and return money to the free market is by having some sly roundabout thing that grows that they can't stop.

844
01:41:55,438 --> 01:42:01,718
So if Bitcoin grows really slowly, then the government, the statists might be able to suppress it enough.

845
01:42:01,718 --> 01:42:04,878
But if we grow rapidly, that's better.

846
01:42:04,878 --> 01:42:06,598
And sidechains can help with that a lot.

847
01:42:07,997 --> 01:42:20,318
And when we're talking about the world using Bitcoin, we're saying the world using actual Bitcoin, right, not just Satoshi denominated IOUs.

848
01:42:20,318 --> 01:42:23,958
Well, if it's if it's peer to peer and it's a sidechain.

849
01:42:25,037 --> 01:42:27,598
And the unit of account is Bitcoin.

850
01:42:27,598 --> 01:42:30,438
So as I said earlier, the sidechain is different from the main chain.

851
01:42:30,477 --> 01:42:37,078
OK, so when we talk about real Bitcoin, we believe in the future people will mean Bitcoin and its sidechain.

852
01:42:37,078 --> 01:42:38,637
It's because those are simply layers.

853
01:42:39,117 --> 01:42:44,557
Right. Just like a gold bar is the same as a gold coin is the same as gold in the ground.

854
01:42:44,557 --> 01:42:46,917
It's all gold, but it takes different forms.

855
01:42:47,277 --> 01:42:53,917
Similarly, a unit of Bitcoin maintained on a peer to peer sidechain is Bitcoin.

856
01:42:53,958 --> 01:42:55,678
It's different than main chain Bitcoin.

857
01:42:55,958 --> 01:42:59,557
There's different layers of decentralization, different fees you would pay.

858
01:42:59,958 --> 01:43:03,557
But the thing that the sidechain shares with the main chain is the same hash rate.

859
01:43:03,958 --> 01:43:05,238
It's the same miners.

860
01:43:05,318 --> 01:43:06,158
OK, that's one.

861
01:43:06,438 --> 01:43:08,358
The other is the same monetary policy.

862
01:43:09,358 --> 01:43:15,557
So there can never be more than 21 million units in circulation across all of the sidechains and the main chain.

863
01:43:15,917 --> 01:43:18,197
They're all buying into the same monetary policy.

864
01:43:18,718 --> 01:43:21,477
So we're talking about Bitcoin, just like lightning.

865
01:43:21,557 --> 01:43:27,438
People talk about sending Bitcoin around in lightning, you know, that is distinct from sending Bitcoin around on main chain.

866
01:43:27,477 --> 01:43:28,518
But it's still Bitcoin.

867
01:43:29,798 --> 01:43:36,037
So that's what we think is Bitcoin needs to become multi chain, multi chain with a single monetary policy.

868
01:43:36,277 --> 01:43:38,878
Multi chain with a single set of miners.

869
01:43:41,958 --> 01:43:47,358
So the OK, so there is a mechanism to make sure that there's no inflation on sidechains, then.

870
01:43:48,997 --> 01:43:50,997
Yeah, they just said that, yeah, the two way peg.

871
01:43:50,997 --> 01:44:00,358
So there's only so many synthetic Bitcoin on the sidechain as has been since on the main chain to the two way peg, that is to say to the hash rate escrow.

872
01:44:00,917 --> 01:44:06,078
So there could be, let's say, Bitcoin or send one percent of their Bitcoin to a sidechain.

873
01:44:06,757 --> 01:44:12,317
That would mean that, you know, one percent of 21 million has been sent to that sidechain.

874
01:44:12,757 --> 01:44:16,118
And now there's that many synthetic Bitcoin on the sidechain.

875
01:44:16,518 --> 01:44:25,597
If everyone decides to stop using that sidechain, then all of those sidechain tokens will be burned and all of the Bitcoin will be released from the hash rate escrow.

876
01:44:26,437 --> 01:44:27,717
That's the two way peg.

877
01:44:28,118 --> 01:44:30,717
The value can move in both directions back and forth.

878
01:44:31,037 --> 01:44:36,798
And that's why they trade one for one, because arbitrageurs will maintain the peg at a one to one ratio.

879
01:44:43,838 --> 01:44:46,078
We've got 15 more minutes left for questions.

880
01:44:46,197 --> 01:44:47,678
Thanks, everyone who's asked any.

881
01:44:48,037 --> 01:44:50,558
Come on up to the stage and share your thoughts if you'd like.

882
01:44:51,317 --> 01:44:53,597
We meet every Friday to talk about drivechain.

883
01:44:54,078 --> 01:44:58,678
You can get involved in the ways described on LayerTwo Labs dot com.

884
01:44:58,798 --> 01:45:00,597
You can download our software.

885
01:45:00,877 --> 01:45:06,518
You can run the test net software and you can read the bits that are on GitHub.

886
01:45:08,118 --> 01:45:17,197
And you can also participate in our telegram group, which has different subgroups for technical questions, for chatting off topic, for chatting about drivechain.

887
01:45:19,037 --> 01:45:20,518
Lots of different ways to get involved.

888
01:45:20,518 --> 01:45:26,398
So if no one else has any questions, I'll ask another one.

889
01:45:29,398 --> 01:45:30,238
Yeah, please.

890
01:45:30,238 --> 01:45:42,597
So, I mean, it sounds like with, you know, with sidechains, there's really no reason to have further, you know, upgrades to the base layer, right?

891
01:45:43,278 --> 01:45:55,678
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like, you know, with sidechains, there's really no reason to have further, you know, upgrades to the base layer, right?

892
01:45:55,678 --> 01:46:04,437
Because you can always just, you know, any functionality that you'd want on the base layer, you could always just clone and add into a sidechain, right?

893
01:46:05,317 --> 01:46:05,958
Exactly.

894
01:46:06,238 --> 01:46:07,877
It could be the BIP to end all BIPs.

895
01:46:07,917 --> 01:46:14,238
But at the same time, as I mentioned earlier, like sidechains will accelerate good ideas and decelerate bad ones.

896
01:46:14,238 --> 01:46:29,437
Because after we have advanced sidechains, people will say, OK, if you have a change you want made to Bitcoin main chain, maybe it's a good idea, but first prove it in a sidechain.

897
01:46:29,757 --> 01:46:33,877
Let's see how much value and stability it can accrue and demonstrate.

898
01:46:34,278 --> 01:46:45,118
So if rollups are a good change or if Sysag or CTV, anything that people think might be a good change could be demonstrated with real Bitcoin by those who voluntarily opt into the sidechain.

899
01:46:46,118 --> 01:47:10,118
So, I mean, in that sense, it seems like, I mean, it seems like anyone working on any other, you know, soft fork proposals should really be supporting sidechains so that they can just get a fast track into implementing their, you know, whatever it is they want to, you know, kind of upgrade Bitcoin with, right?

900
01:47:10,118 --> 01:47:13,118
I mean, it'd be a much, it seems like it'd be a much faster track.

901
01:47:14,118 --> 01:47:17,118
Yeah, there's a lot of sidechains and then do it that way.

902
01:47:17,118 --> 01:47:33,118
There's a lot of very friendly and favorable discourse between the different communities that are interested in soft fork for Bitcoin, because the one thing they have in common, aside from an interest in Bitcoin, is knowledge that it is worthwhile sometimes to change Bitcoin.

903
01:47:34,118 --> 01:47:36,118
And these are communities that are focused on a change.

904
01:47:37,118 --> 01:47:39,118
So we have a friendly relationship with a number of them.

905
01:47:40,118 --> 01:47:50,118
People came by our booth in Miami and shook hands with us, like Adam Back, you know, speaks favorably about drivechain, also is favorable about simplicity.

906
01:47:51,118 --> 01:47:57,118
Jeremy Rubin stopped by, is very friendly towards, you know, our community and also has an idea of his own.

907
01:47:58,118 --> 01:48:03,118
So people who understand Bitcoin, you know, should change and that changes are needed for Bitcoin to be better.

908
01:48:03,118 --> 01:48:05,118
They have that shared understanding.

909
01:48:05,118 --> 01:48:20,118
So the whole Bitcoin technical community, you know, is interested in innovation and experimentation, because these are the kinds of people who tend to be developing the ideas and are really knowledgeable about the value of having more innovation and experimentation in Bitcoin.

910
01:48:21,118 --> 01:48:32,118
So, yeah, drivechain is harmonious with all of those ideas in the sense that we're talking about, where they could, ideas could be tested on a Bitcoin layer with real money by those who want to try that.

911
01:48:33,118 --> 01:48:45,118
Well, we've got 10 minutes left in our chat today.

912
01:48:46,118 --> 01:48:48,118
Who wants to share some more thoughts?

913
01:48:49,118 --> 01:48:50,118
Go for it.

914
01:48:51,118 --> 01:48:53,118
Yeah, I was thinking about.

915
01:48:54,118 --> 01:48:56,118
So we have the amendable RBF.

916
01:48:59,118 --> 01:49:02,118
We have that code, but it's not active by default.

917
01:49:03,118 --> 01:49:08,118
So drivechain will probably have that hurdle to clear as well.

918
01:49:08,118 --> 01:49:16,118
You'll have to get the code added and then we'll have to get 50% of the miners to actually enable it.

919
01:49:17,118 --> 01:49:18,118
Would that be correct?

920
01:49:24,118 --> 01:49:26,118
Paul, did you catch that question?

921
01:49:27,118 --> 01:49:29,118
Might be a good lesson for you if you're here.

922
01:49:36,118 --> 01:49:41,118
Is the question about how drivechain would be activated? Is that what you're asking?

923
01:49:42,118 --> 01:49:43,118
Like as a software?

924
01:49:44,118 --> 01:49:45,118
Yeah.

925
01:49:45,118 --> 01:49:49,118
Yeah, like it would be disabled by default when it was first added.

926
01:49:50,118 --> 01:49:59,118
Well, I mean, any soft fork is, you know, disabled in the sense that no one has to upgrade to that version of Bitcoin.

927
01:49:59,118 --> 01:50:05,118
So, I mean, you could just keep your node as a previous version and never have drivechain.

928
01:50:05,118 --> 01:50:17,118
But I mean, if you were to upgrade to a new version of Bitcoin post, you know, an activation of drivechain, then I suppose you would have that, you know, that ability to use it, right?

929
01:50:18,118 --> 01:50:19,118
Did I get that right?

930
01:50:19,118 --> 01:50:20,118
Exactly.

931
01:50:20,118 --> 01:50:21,118
Yeah.

932
01:50:21,118 --> 01:50:23,118
It's backwards compatible soft fork.

933
01:50:23,118 --> 01:50:24,118
Yes.

934
01:50:24,118 --> 01:50:25,118
That's right.

935
01:50:26,118 --> 01:50:28,118
So currently the code is being rebased.

936
01:50:28,118 --> 01:50:39,118
And then if it were activated on Bitcoin, the community would prepare and conduct that as done in prior soft forks like SegWit 2017, Taproot 2021.

937
01:50:40,118 --> 01:50:47,118
And then, you know, after activation, the sidechains would begin to launch in the manner described in the BIPs.

938
01:50:47,118 --> 01:50:53,118
So read BIP300 to understand the process by which a sidechain is launched.

939
01:50:53,118 --> 01:50:57,118
And yeah, it would be very exciting.

940
01:50:57,118 --> 01:51:01,118
It would be a huge, exciting change for the narratives around Bitcoin.

941
01:51:01,118 --> 01:51:09,118
You would see headlines like Bitcoin is embracing a path towards greater innovation and experimentation.

942
01:51:09,118 --> 01:51:23,118
You know, and people who are interested in the price of Bitcoin would talk about how this has the potential to absorb the value and send altcoins to zero as the communities migrate to Bitcoin sidechains.

943
01:51:24,118 --> 01:51:45,118
Adam Back has talked about this, how there was a moment in 2014 when the Blockstream white paper came out on sidechains, how there was a moment where the altcoin prices fell and people all thought this is Bitcoin's moment where it's going to absorb every other blockchain community and be the one stop shop, the big tent for everything on blockchain.

944
01:51:45,118 --> 01:51:48,118
And then that didn't quite happen.

945
01:51:49,118 --> 01:51:53,118
And now we have this enormous ocean of altcoins out there.

946
01:51:53,118 --> 01:52:21,118
So Dr. Back is envisioning how a drivechain might revitalize that narrative and in a more sustained way, absorb all of the innovation, users, fees and value to Bitcoin, sending the altcoins to zero and making Bitcoin absorb everything, which would speed up Bitcoinization and align the entire blockchain community on a single project, a single foundation.

947
01:52:23,118 --> 01:52:48,118
I think, so like, I'm not a coder or anything, but it seems like with, we have the people promoting mempool, RBF full, and it's not really like activated yet.

948
01:52:48,118 --> 01:53:04,118
Or I think the actual option in Bitcoin Core software is like Bitcoin mempool RBF full equals zero.

949
01:53:04,118 --> 01:53:09,118
And like, that's the default.

950
01:53:10,118 --> 01:53:13,118
So it's been in there since version 0.12.

951
01:53:14,118 --> 01:53:17,118
That's a great question for the Telegram group.

952
01:53:17,118 --> 01:53:24,118
We have a lot of people in there who are extremely technical, like Paul Sztorc, CryptAxe, the co-authors.

953
01:53:24,118 --> 01:53:32,118
He was asking about mempool RBF and if it has any relevance to drivechain.

954
01:53:33,118 --> 01:53:42,118
Oh, he was asking about mempool RBF and if it has any relevance to drivechain.

955
01:53:42,118 --> 01:53:52,118
Oh, it's kind of unrelated, but that is an interesting topic that people have disagreed over for many years.

956
01:53:53,118 --> 01:54:05,118
Well, my specific question was about how mempool RBF full has not been activated yet, even though it's been in the Bitcoin code since 0.12.

957
01:54:06,118 --> 01:54:14,118
Yes, the technical community fell more on the side of this is going to be the equilibrium behavior, so we might as well just do it.

958
01:54:14,118 --> 01:54:21,118
Whereas there are a lot of practitioners, which ironically includes John Carvalho.

959
01:54:21,118 --> 01:54:30,118
He like almost always groups with the Bitcoin dev mailing list, but instead he is hard against, is kind of unusual.

960
01:54:30,118 --> 01:54:39,118
But the practitioners are just like, we use Bitcoin in the real world and we don't want easy RBF.

961
01:54:40,118 --> 01:54:51,118
And in practice, it's just the cost of maliciously replacing transactions is very high because in practice, someone has to like write their own software to do that.

962
01:54:51,118 --> 01:54:54,118
Convince people to download it, which is not free.

963
01:54:55,118 --> 01:55:01,118
So they thought, why are we providing this service in the free Bitcoin wallet that we recommend to everyone?

964
01:55:01,118 --> 01:55:15,118
This RBF thing is not is not good because what it does is it makes every single payment potentially suspicious and reversible up to the first confirmation.

965
01:55:16,118 --> 01:55:27,118
And so anyone who wants to send it, who wants to prove that they, you know, all the payments that would not be reversed, people who would never have downloaded the software, the modded software.

966
01:55:29,118 --> 01:55:35,118
The honest people there are now all the transactions are mixed into the suspicious bucket.

967
01:55:35,118 --> 01:55:37,118
So it is an intriguing.

968
01:55:40,118 --> 01:55:46,118
Topic of like should Bitcoin Core always do the selfish equilibrium or should it just try to.

969
01:55:49,118 --> 01:55:54,118
Lean into providing software that is best for sender and receiver.

970
01:55:55,118 --> 01:55:57,118
Even if it could be circumvented.

971
01:55:57,118 --> 01:56:04,118
So we're going to have to wrap in just three minutes so you can have the final question, Bitcoin biohacker.

972
01:56:04,118 --> 01:56:06,118
Always great questions from you and everyone.

973
01:56:06,118 --> 01:56:08,118
Thank you, everyone who joined the stage.

974
01:56:08,118 --> 01:56:10,118
We'll be wrapping shortly.

975
01:56:10,118 --> 01:56:12,118
We have a hard stop in three minutes.

976
01:56:12,118 --> 01:56:14,118
We'll be back next Friday.

977
01:56:14,118 --> 01:56:19,118
Follow us here, LayerTwo Labs on Twitter for more of these spaces.

978
01:56:19,118 --> 01:56:20,118
We meet every Friday.

979
01:56:20,118 --> 01:56:22,118
Usually at the same time, 1 p.m.

980
01:56:22,118 --> 01:56:23,118
Eastern.

981
01:56:23,118 --> 01:56:36,118
And in the meantime, you can go to Layer2Labs.com to read more, read the BIPs, download our software, read the essays by Fiatjaf, the creator of Nostr and SuperTestNet, outstanding Bitcoin focused software engineer.

982
01:56:37,118 --> 01:56:42,118
Those essays in favor of drivechain are very compelling and come from very experienced people.

983
01:56:42,118 --> 01:56:45,118
So there's so much to learn and understand about this project.

984
01:56:45,118 --> 01:56:48,118
A lot of reading to do, whether you're a technical or not.

985
01:56:48,118 --> 01:56:50,118
There's something for everyone.

986
01:56:50,118 --> 01:56:51,118
All right.

987
01:56:51,118 --> 01:56:53,118
Take it away for your last question.

988
01:56:54,118 --> 01:57:08,118
Well, I guess like a node, I'm not really sure what the question is, but I was wondering if the software is optional, would it be opt-in?

989
01:57:09,118 --> 01:57:23,118
Well, I guess like a node, I'm not really sure what the question is, but I was wondering if the software is optional, would it be opt-in?

990
01:57:23,118 --> 01:57:32,118
I mean, assuming we have a drivechain software, would it be opt-in or would it be one by default and we have to opt-out?

991
01:57:32,118 --> 01:57:45,118
Well, people have a weird position where they just think like if you're not running the, there's like a soft coercion because you have to run the latest version because it's the one that stays up to date with all the different bug fixes and optimizations.

992
01:57:45,118 --> 01:57:51,118
So people think I'm kind of railroaded into running the latest version.

993
01:57:52,118 --> 01:57:58,118
And also they'll think something like, they'll think, how do I phrase this?

994
01:57:58,118 --> 01:58:06,118
They'll say like, okay, people releasing the latest version, they think, well, I'm on the hook for supporting all this code.

995
01:58:06,118 --> 01:58:08,118
I got to maintain all this code.

996
01:58:08,118 --> 01:58:11,118
So in practice, there's kind of just like one latest version.

997
01:58:11,118 --> 01:58:15,118
And in that sense, every single pull request is sort of mandatory.

998
01:58:16,118 --> 01:58:18,118
But it's actually not literally mandatory.

999
01:58:18,118 --> 01:58:24,118
And you could release a different version, like a different version of each future release of the software.

1000
01:58:24,118 --> 01:58:28,118
You could have like the drivechain version and the non-drivechain version.

1001
01:58:28,118 --> 01:58:30,118
You could just run the non-drivechain version.

1002
01:58:30,118 --> 01:58:43,118
But, yeah, we would need a hashrate majority to activate, to run, a hashrate majority to be running the software that enforces BIP300 in order for it to activate via miner activated soft fork.

1003
01:58:44,118 --> 01:58:45,118
Well said.

1004
01:58:45,118 --> 01:58:49,118
Well, that is our hard stop, but we'll be back.

1005
01:58:49,118 --> 01:58:51,118
Hey, thanks, everyone.

1006
01:58:51,118 --> 01:58:52,118
See you later.

1007
01:58:52,118 --> 01:58:53,118
Thanks, everyone, for joining.

1008
01:58:53,118 --> 01:58:54,118
See you soon.

1009
01:58:54,118 --> 01:58:56,118
Check us out in the Telegram group in the meantime.

1010
01:58:56,118 --> 01:58:57,118
Drivechain talk.

1011
01:58:57,118 --> 01:59:02,118
You can find it at drivechain.info or layer2labs.com, the link to our Telegram group.