1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000
Okay, hello.

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,000
Hello.

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,000
Hello.

4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Welcome.

5
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:19,000
I just want to let you know your mic is working just fine. You are audible and you are ready to go.

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,000
Okay, great. Thank you.

7
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,000
I got some notes about items of the week.

8
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,000
To just possibly discuss, but if anyone has any questions they can hop up.

9
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,000
I have a question.

10
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,000
Sure.

11
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:43,000
Well, this is kind of like a funny type of question. Wait, are you aware of like what meme quins are like the crypto coins.

12
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:51,000
I didn't quite you cut out a little bit you say I'm aware of what meme coins are. Yeah, I said are you aware of what meme coins are.

13
00:00:51,000 --> 00:01:03,000
Yeah, it's like a coin that's like only a meme, basically, but it's for fun. And, I mean, I would think of that as mostly like, like Dogecoin or something like that.

14
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,000
Yeah, what is it going. Yes.

15
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:31,000
Yeah, well that's kind of kind of involved in the space so I kind of, you know, like to do some stuff with that so it's very nice to see I know you're very you've been in the space and I've been following up with your content and everything with Truthcoin and yeah it's really cool stuff.

16
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,000
Oh, thank you.

17
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000
Okay. Are you, are you aware of this lot of blockchain sorry I'll make this quick.

18
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000
Yeah, I know there's already.

19
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:59,000
Someone has already done this eCash salon a thing, and we have a posted about how will like the will treat the creator fees as if someone is buying the token.

20
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:08,000
The real cash, so that's like a neat way of making it somewhat real. So instead of being merely a meme.

21
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,000
It will also have some trade in value.

22
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:19,000
And I explained that in the post.

23
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,000
So there you go.

24
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:35,000
Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's kind of cool to see something like that it would be, I think would be even cooler, if it was you to like, make your own, like type meme coin I'm adopting a meme coin from someone else who made it even though you get the creator fees when it's traded is

25
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:49,000
cool but coming from you I think it would be even a better experience so. Yeah, I think what the thing is, we could make it so that anyone who does the anything with the trader fees.

26
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:57,000
Because again, I was just saying we'll just interpret that as, as buying the token, but I don't want to get too crazy.

27
00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,000
Okay, let me.

28
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000
Sorry you cut off.

29
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:09,000
I don't want to get too crazy like in terms of like too much to explain and, and have people cross referencing like hundred spreadsheets and stuff.

30
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,000
Oh, okay. Wait.

31
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000
Okay.

32
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,000
If you make a meme coin live on Spaces would that be cool.

33
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000
No, it would not.

34
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,000
Oh, you don't think so sorry about that. I do not.

35
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000
Okay, let me give you my.

36
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000
I got some notes of the week.

37
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,000
So maybe these will.

38
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:37,000
If people want to ask about these or anything else then let me know.

39
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:54,000
So first of my note of the week is rusty Russell is leaving lightning even though he was basically like the smartest is one of the super smart, most experienced Bitcoin developers.

40
00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:03,000
He headed up blocks from see lightning project which is like this super important core infrastructure lightning like back end project.

41
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000
And he's also like very polite.

42
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:22,000
And he was part of the, you know, during the block size war he was one of the few people that actually said like reasonable things and tried to reign in the, the rudeness and kind of chaos of the, the whole thing.

43
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:28,000
And so then you had like other people like Samson now who are sort of capitalizing on it, but he was trying to reign it in.

44
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:38,000
And so he's like basically one of the top people in the, like, in terms of integrity, knowledge and experience.

45
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000
He's like one of the top people in the whole industry.

46
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:48,000
And he's now apparently quitting lightning and quitting Bitcoin going back to work on Linux, which is what he was doing before.

47
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,000
And so that just speaks to the ongoing death of lightning.

48
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,000
That's like, there's nowhere to go with lightning.

49
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000
You can't do anything about that.

50
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:11,000
And, you know, so you could say, like, how would we compare that to, like, the endless hype that comes from, like, many Bitcoin or so you have, like, Michael Saylor saying, oh, everyone's going to be rich.

51
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:23,000
And then you have to compare that to all the lightning people like Fiat Josh and myself who were telling you the whole time that this lightning thing is not going to pan for years.

52
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,000
We're talking about that.

53
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,000
So that's one item of the week.

54
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:41,000
Also, item number two on the list, we actually finished raising the five million dollar round.

55
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:49,000
So it was mostly closed before we publicly announced.

56
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:59,000
But in before the Las Vegas conference in April, but it was mostly closed then, but it has since filled up and it's now finished.

57
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:06,000
So that does that's very interesting that, you know, obviously, on one hand, we have a lot of haters, which is fine.

58
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,000
But it does prove that there's a large appetite for this project to some extent.

59
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,000
And so there's a lot of external validation.

60
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,000
So I was going to announce that tomorrow morning by tweet.

61
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,000
But I guess if you shut up here, then you heard it first.

62
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,000
Yes, I have a question.

63
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,000
Do you think I could maybe get a follow back?

64
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,000
I just want to keep up with you.

65
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,000
Maybe you could talk to the.

66
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000
OK, sure.

67
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,000
I will follow you.

68
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,000
OK, great.

69
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000
And we also have this bug bounty.

70
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,000
This is a hundred thousand dollars.

71
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,000
It's been going for about a week and a little.

72
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,000
So maybe I lost track of time, but I don't know.

73
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,000
It's been going for a little while and it's five rounds with twenty thousand dollars each round.

74
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,000
It will probably increase that because it's been going very well.

75
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:07,000
And the idea is if you report bugs and whoever finds the most wins, basically, although there are different categories of bug.

76
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:15,000
And so if you find more severe bugs, it's way makes it way more likely that you will win.

77
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000
And so people have been sending in bugs, which is very good.

78
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,000
And I could explain more about that.

79
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:26,000
But you can read about it on the.

80
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:34,000
And the announcement page, so if you go to either eCash.com or if you go to drivechain.info and find the article section.

81
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,000
It's up there both times and you can see kind of how it works.

82
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000
And so that's been great.

83
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,000
I also have on my list. Michael Saylor is selling.

84
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,000
Zach Vol has a hilarious meme.

85
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:56,000
It's pretty good meme maker. And he was like.

86
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,000
Oh, I don't know exactly. I can't do the exact joke.

87
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:08,000
But it was something like, you know, you bought every local top and now you're down only to break even for like seven years.

88
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,000
And then you said you would never sell. And now you're selling.

89
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,000
And so you ever can go to sailor tracker dot com.

90
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:20,000
We have to break the spell that Michael Saylor has any idea what he's talking about, which he mostly does not.

91
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,000
And you go to sailor tracker dot com and you'll see that he's he's mostly new and he mostly overpaid.

92
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,000
He's down something like 10 percent.

93
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000
And he has lost a huge amount of money by getting involved with BTC.

94
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:42,000
And he sold, you know, 400 million dollars worth of micro strategy stock for for cash.

95
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:50,000
Although I heard that he is sold the 400 million in cash so that he could buy Bitcoin personally.

96
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,000
And then I was thinking, oh, well, maybe he doesn't understand Bitcoin after all.

97
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,000
You know what I mean? He's like he's scamming the MSTR people.

98
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:05,000
He's walking away with the real Bitcoin, you know, like he's walking away with real Bitcoin and with real millions of dollars.

99
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,000
And he's just giving people the worthless MSTR stock.

100
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:16,000
So I was like, well, maybe he doesn't understand how Bitcoin works.

101
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000
He understands how to scam you so that he can get more Bitcoin for himself.

102
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:27,000
I thought that's funny. OK, I have a note here about this Solana token.

103
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,000
We already talked about it. There's a page eCash.com slash S.O.L. token.

104
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,000
So we'll answer all of your Solana questions.

105
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,000
And it's only the top five can redeem.

106
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,000
That's to minimize the amount of headache.

107
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:47,000
And it doesn't matter if you aren't in the top five, you can shop around, sell to them.

108
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,000
So the value is a clever thing where the value gets.

109
00:09:51,000 --> 00:10:06,000
Pumped into the token, if it's the case that more education about eCash will increase the value of eCash, which I think is true, so.

110
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:15,000
OK, I have one other thing on my list, but yeah, feel free to to come up and ask about the August hard fork.

111
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:23,000
If you have any questions or complaints. I posted the thread of like, oh, we have these.

112
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000
You know, when we announced it, of course, there were some people who who complain.

113
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,000
And of course, they have like the dumbest complaints in the whole universe.

114
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:38,000
But, you know, they were like. But of course, then they're not going to come here to talk on the Twitter space.

115
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:44,000
But, you know, we can at least kind of say we can at least throw it out there and offer them.

116
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000
To give them an offer to show up and maybe they can explain what why it's such a bad idea in person, but we know that they won't.

117
00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:05,000
But the point is, you know. That's kind of the point is that they will show up.

118
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:14,000
And I have some more some other notes on the week, so if.

119
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:20,000
We can just keep doing those, but if it's more important that if anyone has any questions about.

120
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:27,000
The. You know, the hard fork or anything else.

121
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,000
Hey, Paul, can you hear me? Yes. Hey, thanks for having me on.

122
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:38,000
Just want to ask you quickly about the website you just mentioned for the meme coin.

123
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:46,000
So on there you have a thing saying that the top five holders can swap up to five times each.

124
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,000
Could you maybe like just explain what the swapping five times each means?

125
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:58,000
And like, is there some kind of like game theory element to that or or what's the point in the five times each part?

126
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,000
Thanks. Yeah, that limits it to just twenty five total interactions between me and the.

127
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:10,000
People or whoever and the people.

128
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:19,000
So that they can then because otherwise it would be too annoying to deal with it all.

129
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,000
Right. So but why wouldn't everyone just swap all the tokens all at once?

130
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:41,000
No, the ideal thing for everyone is to have one guy buy up all of the at the end, you know, like in August 30th or whatever, one guy buy up all of the meme token and swap it one time because that minimizes the total headache for everyone.

131
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:56,000
So hopefully that makes sense.

132
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,000
Maybe it doesn't, I don't know, but trust me, it's a really, really, really good idea. And if you just think about it.

133
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:08,000
Right. Yeah. So go ahead. Go ahead. You were cutting out a bit for me.

134
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:14,000
I don't know for everyone else if they could hear you, but I only caught a couple of words. But sorry. Go ahead.

135
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:27,000
Yeah, I was saying it's a really, really good idea. And if you just think about it really hard, then maybe it will make more sense because it's great.

136
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:50,000
It's the perfect thing for each person involved. So I don't know how much more time I want to waste talking about it because it's honestly not that important.

137
00:13:50,000 --> 00:14:09,000
So I also had on my list about, okay, the BSV people show up in here sometimes, which is great. It's very interesting. And two times ago, I think we had the conversation with the guy who wouldn't stop talking about the free riding the SPV.

138
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:21,000
And I was thinking, well, you know, what's a better way of maybe explaining it to that person, which is that the free riding is very important because you have to be aware of how your behavior affects other people.

139
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:35,000
So I have this example of maybe if you whistle, some people find it really annoying, but other people really like it. Some people really, really, really like it and maybe you can quit your job, whatever you normally do.

140
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:49,000
And you can get a job as a performer and make more money and have an easier, better life. That would be like, oh, you didn't realize that what you were doing was helping other people, but then you did and eCash in on it.

141
00:14:49,000 --> 00:15:00,000
And then the same way is you might think, oh, people are annoyed by this whistling. You might think, well, hey, maybe over time, people stop inviting you to the Friday night poker game or whatever.

142
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:23,000
So that's why it's really important for people to keep in mind. So the SPV is this relationship where you are free riding off of someone else's full note and then it has to work harder and harder to process each transaction and store it forever and serve it back to everyone.

143
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:40,000
And so you just have to be aware of the fact that if they didn't do that, you would be done for. And so then, especially when people try to push the envelope and say, well, we're just going to put everything on chain.

144
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:55,000
So that's all the more reason. Okay, so Vlad, what do you think? Or if anyone has a question or a comment, can pop up.

145
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,000
I think it's awesome that Wayne is here because he can build Wayne Chain as a drivechain.

146
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:26,000
Yeah, Wayne Chain was in 2016, a satirical and or 100% real project that had time traveling transactions. And it had a guitar solo, I think. It had a lot going for it.

147
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:38,000
That's ancient history, though.

148
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:47,000
Wayne has come up or Vlad brought him up, maybe.

149
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,000
Can you hear me?

150
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000
Yes, we can hear you.

151
00:16:52,000 --> 00:17:13,000
Yes, I just popped in the room to see what y'all were talking about, but I think it's great that you're talking about Wayne Chain. It is still the world's fastest and most secure blockchain technology with time traveling transactions, unlimited storage, zero block time, unlimited block size. Everybody should go to WayneChain.com and check it out.

152
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:36,000
Actually, a quick funny story about that. I actually got not really criticism, but questioning from my investors at the time in 2016. Like, why did you do this? And they're like, we just don't get it. And I said, I did it because it was funny.

153
00:17:37,000 --> 00:18:03,000
And I wanted to do something over the weekend to sort of point out that we were selling at the time something that was practical and usable, and everybody else was selling, you know, vaporware and visions of things that were pretty much useless. And over the years, they kind of came around, and they actually have a little, they had a Wayne Chain website homepage printout framed up on the wall at Blockchain Capital's offices at one point, which I thought was kind of neat.

154
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:27,000
That's too bad that they don't understand the satire, because that was kind of like, we were living through a time when people were competing on who can have the fastest block time and who can have the largest block sizes. And all that was being treated as though it had no cost. And that wasn't true. And that was exactly the whole point of the joke is that, okay, well, here's this thing with whatever, you know, zero block time.

155
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:49,000
Yeah, they got it after a little while. I mean, I actually, I did it simultaneously at the time that we announced our million dollar round of fundraising. And so they were like, why did you, you know, you're trying to sell to enterprise customers. Why did you announce this thing at the same time that you're announcing your fundraising? It kind of undermines your credibility.

156
00:18:49,000 --> 00:19:10,000
And I said, I disagree. I think it enhances our credibility, because the people who would use our stuff understand why this is funny. And I, you know, I was a little nervous, a little bit like maybe these guys are right, but on balance by far, Wayne Chain had some, I can't tell you how many people contacted me.

157
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:23,000
Or if I was in meetings with folks over at IBM or other places where people were like, Wayne Chain is hilarious. Thank you for doing something like that. So memes work. Memes are a good sales tool.

158
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:35,000
And the, you know, it was very obviously like a satire from like the announcement, the music and everything. It was like, that's, it's disappointing, but it makes perfect sense that people are kind of like,

159
00:19:37,017 --> 00:19:40,377
you know, maybe just thinking, oh yeah, what's the point of this? But I mean, come on, people.

160
00:19:41,897 --> 00:19:47,097
Well, now you have, I mean, so back then, I mean, 2016, there was no AI or whatever. And I had,

161
00:19:47,097 --> 00:19:50,617
you know, in that previous lifetime, I had run a digital agency for a long time.

162
00:19:50,617 --> 00:19:56,137
And so I wrote that radio commercial and produced it. And I had one of the voice actors that I work

163
00:19:56,137 --> 00:20:04,297
with previously do the voiceover for the commercial. So it was actually kind of a big

164
00:20:04,457 --> 00:20:10,136
deal. Not a big deal. It was a difficult task at that time to do. But nowadays you can make,

165
00:20:10,136 --> 00:20:15,016
you can make Drivechain commercials in 30 minutes with chat GPT, and it would probably be,

166
00:20:15,016 --> 00:20:22,217
you know, a better quality than, you know, what I had produced back then. So you're in the era

167
00:20:22,217 --> 00:20:31,097
of meme marketing. I can't wait to see what you guys put out. Yeah, it'll all just be,

168
00:20:31,336 --> 00:20:36,617
um, you know, it'll all be Wayne chain derived. No, I'm just kidding.

169
00:20:37,496 --> 00:20:41,336
We actually have good, we have, we have insane Daniel Crayworth's videos now. So that's like,

170
00:20:43,976 --> 00:20:47,497
that's like, that's as crazy as it gets. Is he making new videos?

171
00:20:48,057 --> 00:20:55,497
Yeah. Really? No, you gotta go to the eCash.com, uh, the YouTube page. There's two eCash videos.

172
00:20:55,497 --> 00:20:58,857
Yeah. They're, they're wild. The first one's really, really good. He's got some,

173
00:20:58,857 --> 00:21:03,417
he's shared some ideas with me too. And he, they're crazy. Like some of the later ones that

174
00:21:03,417 --> 00:21:07,896
are coming up, but the first one's really good. Second one's pretty good too. Second one has me

175
00:21:07,896 --> 00:21:13,177
as like Mario. What's interesting to me is that people who came into Bitcoin later, when I say

176
00:21:13,177 --> 00:21:21,656
later, I mean like after 2015, um, they kind of forget how weird Bitcoin was or were never really

177
00:21:21,656 --> 00:21:26,377
exposed to it because they weren't, they were kind of like on the outside looking in at, uh,

178
00:21:26,377 --> 00:21:33,177
during that time period. And right now we're in this weird, you know, orange eye suit coin era

179
00:21:34,216 --> 00:21:38,936
where, you know, in my, in my humble opinion, what happens with Bitcoin has more to do with

180
00:21:38,936 --> 00:21:43,737
what happens in Washington DC than market forces at this particular point in time.

181
00:21:44,377 --> 00:21:49,656
Um, just because we're at this crossroads with the clarity act and all that, but it'd be interesting

182
00:21:49,656 --> 00:21:56,936
if, uh, uh, if during this bear market, if there's a washout, uh, some of these Bitcoin

183
00:21:56,936 --> 00:22:03,576
treasury companies and some of the other stuff that's out there. And we kind of go back to that,

184
00:22:04,216 --> 00:22:09,496
you know, there's like a weird sector, I guess at this point, it couldn't be the whole thing

185
00:22:09,496 --> 00:22:14,136
because Bitcoin's so much bigger now, but a weird sector where guys like Daniel Kravitz and

186
00:22:14,697 --> 00:22:18,697
others start coming out of the woodwork and just doing weird Bitcoin stuff.

187
00:22:21,097 --> 00:22:28,296
It's a very, very good question of like, to what extent should it remain punk or should it,

188
00:22:28,296 --> 00:22:32,617
or should it not, or what is going on? It's like, this is different than 2016.

189
00:22:32,617 --> 00:22:39,737
Is it the opposite or is it just, is it actually the same? Like, well, I think in 2016,

190
00:22:39,737 --> 00:22:42,457
you had a lot of stuff that was definitely never going to pan out like the,

191
00:22:44,617 --> 00:22:47,257
like the blockchain without Bitcoin stuff that was kind of doomed.

192
00:22:48,216 --> 00:22:55,496
Um, so that's not the same as the treasury companies, but I don't know. It's a very,

193
00:22:55,496 --> 00:23:00,457
it is a very interesting time. I'm not sure what to make of it myself.

194
00:23:02,296 --> 00:23:07,737
Um, guys, if anyone has a question or comment and feel free to hop up.

195
00:23:10,296 --> 00:23:15,257
I just want to say that this week there's going to be the Bitcoin Film Fest in Warsaw,

196
00:23:15,977 --> 00:23:23,576
and I may or may not be involved in putting up a poster that promotes the hard fork that's coming

197
00:23:23,576 --> 00:23:29,496
in August for eCash. And it's hilarious. It's like a slasher film. If you're going to that

198
00:23:29,496 --> 00:23:35,016
event or you know someone who's going, ask them to check it out. It's also next doors for Monero

199
00:23:35,016 --> 00:23:40,216
Con. So the Monero guys are going to walk in for some movies maybe, and they're going to see that

200
00:23:40,216 --> 00:23:48,377
on the way to the theater. And it's pretty cool. I think that there's some untapped meme potential

201
00:23:48,377 --> 00:24:01,097
here. So Paul, I haven't really been keeping up. What's the latest thing going on with eCash?

202
00:24:01,656 --> 00:24:10,056
Well, I think you just missed, I did like a recap, but the five million funding round is closed.

203
00:24:12,056 --> 00:24:18,137
So that's pretty good. And we're doing this bug bounty to hammer all the bugs out before launch.

204
00:24:18,936 --> 00:24:25,176
So we're doing a cool bug contest. I already mentioned both things, so I'd hate to

205
00:24:25,577 --> 00:24:31,336
re-mention them. Thank you for recapping it for me. Thank you.

206
00:24:33,097 --> 00:24:37,496
And yeah, I think the bug bounty thing is cool. People are sending in lots of good

207
00:24:39,017 --> 00:24:46,216
bugs, and the idea is three months from now there shouldn't be any. And it prioritizes people who

208
00:24:46,216 --> 00:24:52,616
find any severe bugs, so should be scanning for those. We got Raphael up here also.

209
00:24:53,097 --> 00:24:58,377
Yeah. Just one last question about this. What does the launch look like? What happens

210
00:24:58,936 --> 00:25:05,496
during the launch immediately after? I mean, I know you don't know, but what's a good guess

211
00:25:05,496 --> 00:25:07,817
about what are the major things that are going to be happening around that?

212
00:25:10,377 --> 00:25:14,216
Well, yeah, the launch should be the fork split off date, and it will be,

213
00:25:14,776 --> 00:25:19,017
we'll just basically lower, we'll take the BTC blockchain and lower the difficulty to a very,

214
00:25:19,017 --> 00:25:27,656
very low value. And so as a result, there'll be lots and lots of blocks found quickly afterward,

215
00:25:28,377 --> 00:25:34,137
but the difficulty will also adjust up very quickly. And there might be some chaos as a result,

216
00:25:34,137 --> 00:25:39,656
like there'll probably be lots of blocks being found. There might be giant reorgs. This is only

217
00:25:39,656 --> 00:25:46,297
like on the first few days. And then one thing that may happen is the difficulty might adjust

218
00:25:46,297 --> 00:25:52,137
too high, and we might reach a situation where blocks take a really long time.

219
00:25:54,216 --> 00:26:02,857
We may have lined up some hash rate to rent if that happens, or the project may be a huge success,

220
00:26:02,857 --> 00:26:07,577
and it'll just be really big, and so there won't be any problem with that. Or it'll be really small,

221
00:26:07,577 --> 00:26:11,977
and it'll be easy to fix, or it'll be in some middle value where there might be

222
00:26:12,616 --> 00:26:18,137
some shenanigans with that to just get it off the ground. But once it reaches equilibrium,

223
00:26:18,776 --> 00:26:25,896
it will be its own blockchain, its own project. And we do plan on replaying the transactions from BTC

224
00:26:27,257 --> 00:26:35,417
into eCash. So there will be lots of transactions in the network that are from both networks,

225
00:26:35,417 --> 00:26:41,257
really. And then everyone will be able to buy and sell as they wish, and they'll be able to

226
00:26:41,257 --> 00:26:48,697
use all the different L2s, which includes the seven that we are shipping, and also any other

227
00:26:48,697 --> 00:26:54,056
ones that come up. I've heard that there may be some more built by other people.

228
00:26:55,257 --> 00:27:04,456
Did you follow at all what Fred Kruger was doing with rPAL recently?

229
00:27:05,896 --> 00:27:07,017
I don't know recently, no.

230
00:27:07,977 --> 00:27:13,176
I don't really follow that much either, but people send me messages. He blocked me on Twitter,

231
00:27:13,176 --> 00:27:18,137
so X or whatever. But people still send me messages now and then. I guess what he did

232
00:27:18,137 --> 00:27:24,377
was create a proof-of-work coin that was a tribute to Hal Finney, supposedly. And

233
00:27:25,257 --> 00:27:30,216
within a short period of time, there was tons and tons of bots that were mining this coin.

234
00:27:30,776 --> 00:27:35,817
And I think rPAL stands for reusable proof-of-work, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

235
00:27:38,857 --> 00:27:43,257
But I think that what people were doing, based on what I saw, at least the screenshots that

236
00:27:43,257 --> 00:27:50,137
people were sending me, was like, I think they created derivative assets on Solana

237
00:27:51,257 --> 00:27:59,097
of these units, and that's how they were trading for a while. Is that likely to happen with

238
00:28:00,857 --> 00:28:05,896
eCash? No, it has already happened. In fact, people are coming up and asking about it already.

239
00:28:05,896 --> 00:28:09,897
So people will make, even with or without you, they just make all these other

240
00:28:12,056 --> 00:28:17,657
stuff that has a similar name and is loosely affiliated. So what he did actually make a

241
00:28:17,657 --> 00:28:27,257
site, if you go to eCash.com slash sol-token, we explain that we'll treat the creator fees

242
00:28:27,257 --> 00:28:36,296
as like a purchase. So as it trades, money just flows to the creator, which they can just

243
00:28:36,296 --> 00:28:45,337
designate as anyone. And so we said, we'll just treat that as a purchase. And now that the $5

244
00:28:45,337 --> 00:28:51,976
million round is closed, that's actually probably the cheapest way to even get... But that's the

245
00:28:51,976 --> 00:28:55,817
trader fees, that's not buying the actual... It's kind of like convoluted, the whole thing.

246
00:28:55,817 --> 00:29:00,936
But yeah, that is kind of a weird thing from a liquidity point of view. It's very interesting.

247
00:29:03,257 --> 00:29:07,736
But yeah, that definitely will happen. It's already happened, basically.

248
00:29:09,257 --> 00:29:12,697
Yeah, that's interesting. It's wildly different than things were years ago, where

249
00:29:14,777 --> 00:29:22,377
if you had a coin, you either had to bag or work with a team at an exchange like

250
00:29:22,377 --> 00:29:27,976
Cryptsy or something like that for them to be able to carry and sell the coin. Now,

251
00:29:28,536 --> 00:29:32,137
there's all these basically automated vending machines that can pop up everywhere,

252
00:29:32,936 --> 00:29:37,337
which is kind of, I don't know, liberating in a certain way.

253
00:29:39,337 --> 00:29:45,736
Because you don't have to worry about a central operator orchestrating that kind of stuff.

254
00:29:46,217 --> 00:29:55,096
Whereas before, your project was kind of beholden to whatever way the wind blew with those small

255
00:29:55,096 --> 00:30:01,096
number of exchanges and other folks that were out there that would open up a market for something.

256
00:30:02,936 --> 00:30:06,856
Yeah, not only that, all the exchanges used to go... Back in our day, Wayne and I's day,

257
00:30:06,856 --> 00:30:10,536
the exchanges would just go straight up and go bankrupt or steal everyone's money or get

258
00:30:11,496 --> 00:30:19,416
hacked all the time. It's funny that now all of these projects that all use pump.fun and stuff,

259
00:30:19,416 --> 00:30:25,257
they all use automated market makers too, which was my idea from Truthcoin from 2012 to bring

260
00:30:25,257 --> 00:30:31,096
that over to the blockchain world. And then where Vitalik found out about it and it escaped

261
00:30:32,296 --> 00:30:37,736
containment from the Robin Hanson universe and it went into the Ethereum world.

262
00:30:38,457 --> 00:30:41,817
So that's another wild thing. Okay, we got Raphael. He's also here. Hello.

263
00:30:41,817 --> 00:30:44,056
Hey, what's up guys? Can you hear me?

264
00:30:45,496 --> 00:30:46,296
I hear you.

265
00:30:46,296 --> 00:30:51,657
Awesome. So I think everyone is already thinking about what kind of Drivechains they would like

266
00:30:51,657 --> 00:30:57,657
to see on eCash. And I just want to put this out into the universe. I would like to see Oktra

267
00:30:59,017 --> 00:31:02,296
as a Drivechain on eCash. Thank you.

268
00:31:04,377 --> 00:31:07,337
Yeah, but what is that though? I don't know that much about that.

269
00:31:08,536 --> 00:31:16,777
It, they have not launched their main net yet. They already had an auction on Uniswap

270
00:31:17,416 --> 00:31:25,096
for their coin and it's a full homomorphic encryption, smart contract blockchain.

271
00:31:26,377 --> 00:31:27,736
So it's private by default.

272
00:31:31,176 --> 00:31:33,897
So it's kind of like a private Ethereum or something?

273
00:31:34,217 --> 00:31:38,137
That's okay. Oh, that's kind of neat. It's pretty cool.

274
00:31:38,856 --> 00:31:47,657
Yeah. And so I'm just putting it out there. So anyone interested in maybe collaborating with

275
00:31:47,657 --> 00:31:54,536
the eCash people to get a hold of Paul Sztorc and LayerTwo Labs, that would be great. Thank you.

276
00:31:58,217 --> 00:32:01,257
Yeah, we don't want to be in the business of gatekeeping

277
00:32:01,257 --> 00:32:06,936
the L2s. So we want anyone who wants to build the L2 can. This will include,

278
00:32:08,056 --> 00:32:12,536
some of them will do really, really well and others will probably not do well.

279
00:32:13,736 --> 00:32:16,296
But that's a very important part of innovation.

280
00:32:17,577 --> 00:32:25,257
So Oktra has its own, it's not SHA-256, but let's say that they wanted to merge mine

281
00:32:26,056 --> 00:32:30,457
or SHA-256 with eCash. How could they? Could they?

282
00:32:32,377 --> 00:32:38,856
You might remember, we had this project called EthSide in 2023, which was basically just,

283
00:32:38,856 --> 00:32:46,936
it was basically Ethereum Gath, but just modified so that instead of having block rewards,

284
00:32:46,936 --> 00:32:53,577
it did PIP 300 deposits and withdrawals. And instead of having the Ethereum proof of stake,

285
00:32:53,577 --> 00:32:59,176
it just had buy merge mining. So now, I don't know if other people will be able to

286
00:33:01,257 --> 00:33:04,457
emulate that. We had one guy do it in like one weekend.

287
00:33:06,056 --> 00:33:09,736
So he didn't, he obviously didn't think it was that hard. And there are videos and stuff,

288
00:33:09,736 --> 00:33:13,657
people could find this on YouTube. So of course, it's possible in principle,

289
00:33:13,657 --> 00:33:20,856
and probably it's been done in practice to some extent. But will, you know, will anyone find,

290
00:33:20,856 --> 00:33:26,296
obviously, if they built it from scratch, I think it wouldn't be that hard for them to change it

291
00:33:26,296 --> 00:33:35,416
from proof of work or proof of stake to being buy merge mined with eCash. Remember, eCash is just

292
00:33:35,416 --> 00:33:41,817
basically Bitcoin Core, the L1 is like exactly the same. So the L1 is the same as Bitcoin Core.

293
00:33:43,337 --> 00:33:49,416
And then the deposits withdrawals, it's not the hardest thing, I don't think. So we'll have to

294
00:33:49,416 --> 00:33:55,897
figure out, maybe we'll do something else, we'll do some kind of, I mean, my thinking is that

295
00:33:55,897 --> 00:34:01,337
people always want to see the SDK or the whatever, you know, like the tutorial or something,

296
00:34:02,457 --> 00:34:09,017
which is fine. And I kind of would rather focus on building with LayerTwo Labs,

297
00:34:09,017 --> 00:34:14,536
I'd rather focus on like actually just building like seven good examples. And then you can kind

298
00:34:14,536 --> 00:34:21,416
of look at one that's close to what you want to do, and then fork it and modify it. Then you

299
00:34:21,416 --> 00:34:25,337
have an actual working project that you can fork. I don't know, that seems better to me.

300
00:34:26,936 --> 00:34:32,296
Paul, is there still a 256 drivetrain constraint?

301
00:34:35,337 --> 00:34:42,616
Well, okay, there was never really a true constraint, because if 51% wanted to add

302
00:34:43,577 --> 00:34:51,176
another Drivechain, then they can just add like BIP300B, you have like BIP300A, BIP300B,

303
00:34:52,056 --> 00:35:00,296
and then you could have another 25, 256, excuse me. And then you could also have

304
00:35:02,217 --> 00:35:07,017
Drivechains of the Drivechains themselves. So in practice, there's really no limit.

305
00:35:07,017 --> 00:35:15,496
But like in the protocol for BIP300, there's still the 256 limit. The true limit is the

306
00:35:15,496 --> 00:35:19,657
attention, like everyone's attention, like can everyone take responsibility for all these?

307
00:35:23,416 --> 00:35:29,337
In terms of the Drivechain, the 256 constraint, that's sort of the base level constraint,

308
00:35:29,337 --> 00:35:36,296
I'll just make up my own term for it. How is that enforced? Like if the 257th person

309
00:35:36,296 --> 00:35:42,217
wanted to create a Drivechain, what would they have to do? And what would stop them from doing

310
00:35:42,217 --> 00:35:47,976
it if the 256 slots had already been filled up? That's one of the things, I guess, just to

311
00:35:47,976 --> 00:35:52,217
interject, I guess, that I was going to also ask a question about, which is about the messaging.

312
00:35:53,416 --> 00:35:57,496
It's a message type in the BIP300 spec that they talk about. So I don't know if you could expand

313
00:35:57,496 --> 00:36:05,817
on that a little bit, Paul. Yeah, the L1, it doesn't know what is happening on the L2s.

314
00:36:06,377 --> 00:36:12,056
So like Crazy Daniel Kravitz has a funny video coming out where he's got this joke about this,

315
00:36:12,056 --> 00:36:18,137
which is funny about like, you don't know what happened in Vietnam, and it's like Rambo

316
00:36:18,137 --> 00:36:22,936
getting tortured. And it's like, and you don't want to know. And it's kind of like, you got to

317
00:36:22,936 --> 00:36:30,457
wait till you see the video. It's going to be funny. So basically, on L1, they don't see what

318
00:36:30,457 --> 00:36:36,457
happens on the L2, but they do know, they have the L2s each have a number, because the deposits

319
00:36:36,457 --> 00:36:40,856
that go into Drivechain number three are different from the deposits that go to drive

320
00:36:40,856 --> 00:36:48,777
chain number eight or something. So L1 is aware of, it has like 256 slots, basically, and 256

321
00:36:48,777 --> 00:36:54,937
accounts, kind of, one per sidechain. And so a lot of stuff will happen, like Blind Merged Mining

322
00:36:54,937 --> 00:37:00,856
stuff, or the withdrawals, or the deposits. And it will refer to this number, and the number is

323
00:37:00,856 --> 00:37:08,216
just a one byte integer. So after you hit 200, you have to hit whatever, you know, 11111,

324
00:37:08,856 --> 00:37:13,816
you run out of space, and you will be referring to someone that already exists.

325
00:37:15,177 --> 00:37:21,816
And so that's basically what happens. And the BIP300 text should explain this, and now it's a

326
00:37:21,816 --> 00:37:27,976
little shorter. Every time it gets revised, every few years, it gets a little shorter and a little

327
00:37:27,976 --> 00:37:37,096
clearer. So if you went to the official Bitcoin BIPs repository, and you could read it there, and

328
00:37:38,137 --> 00:37:41,897
that's kind of the logic of it. Now, of course, you could add a second, you could just activate

329
00:37:41,897 --> 00:37:50,137
BIP300 again, it would have like different, like, kind of prefix bytes, and it would basically just

330
00:37:50,137 --> 00:38:02,057
say like, there's like now a parallel 256, there's now even more. I suppose my understanding, I guess

331
00:38:02,057 --> 00:38:07,496
from reading it, I haven't read the revised version, I don't know when they updated it recently, but

332
00:38:07,496 --> 00:38:12,057
was that there is like a message request that you have to specifically send. And I didn't know if,

333
00:38:12,057 --> 00:38:18,137
like, how involved a miner has to be, really, if like, it's just a matter of changing their template

334
00:38:18,137 --> 00:38:23,096
in order to accept, like, a message, or if it's just a transaction itself, that has a certain,

335
00:38:23,096 --> 00:38:27,976
like, opcode that uses the message spend. But I thought it was just like an RPC message or

336
00:38:27,976 --> 00:38:34,616
something like that. It's different for the Blind Merged Mining, which happens for every sidechain,

337
00:38:34,616 --> 00:38:39,897
every block, or maybe even more frequently, or some other level of frequency. That would happen

338
00:38:39,897 --> 00:38:45,336
all the time, is the Blind Merged Mining, and then the deposits and withdrawals. So these are

339
00:38:45,336 --> 00:38:51,657
separated. BIP300 is the deposits and withdrawals, and Blind Merged Mining is BIP301.

340
00:38:53,096 --> 00:39:00,377
And so to create a sidechain, this does require a little bit of, like, miner attention.

341
00:39:02,057 --> 00:39:09,017
And that's important because we don't, like, the true limit is kind of like a human limit.

342
00:39:09,017 --> 00:39:15,096
It's not, like, it is, to some extent, like, would you want to open, like, a store that has,

343
00:39:15,096 --> 00:39:23,816
like, these 14 or 15 sub stores in it? And the ideal thing is that the L2s would be making so

344
00:39:23,816 --> 00:39:28,377
much money for the miners, or they'd be expected to make so much money for the miners. It wouldn't

345
00:39:28,377 --> 00:39:36,696
matter. Another part of the theory is that right now, you know, back when I first came up with

346
00:39:36,696 --> 00:39:39,417
Drivechain,

347
00:39:38,914 --> 00:39:45,394
the miners were being asked to weigh in on, like, SegWit2x and Hard4Bitcoin XT.

348
00:39:46,674 --> 00:39:50,594
So actually, this was a way of lowering, minimizing back then.

349
00:39:52,194 --> 00:39:56,274
It's different now, but back then, this would have lowered and minimized the amount of

350
00:39:56,994 --> 00:40:01,314
attention that miners had to pay towards these types of things.

351
00:40:01,954 --> 00:40:07,554
Now we've got miners who are totally absentee, negligent miners, and they don't do anything,

352
00:40:07,554 --> 00:40:11,393
even in their own financial best interest, even in Bitcoin's best interest.

353
00:40:11,954 --> 00:40:16,593
So, yeah, I think it seems like the spec is, like, largely, like,

354
00:40:16,593 --> 00:40:23,314
looking at the enforcer code, seeing exactly, like, how it is added to the, you know,

355
00:40:23,314 --> 00:40:28,674
invalidate block script or something like that, on whether or not maybe there is, like,

356
00:40:28,674 --> 00:40:34,114
an index that was added that miners are going to enforce, not

357
00:40:36,834 --> 00:40:38,834
ticking up or down or something like that.

358
00:40:38,834 --> 00:40:41,233
Well, I didn't totally understand your question. So are you asking about,

359
00:40:42,434 --> 00:40:45,553
do you know, are you asking about deposit withdrawals or Blind Merged Mining or?

360
00:40:46,114 --> 00:40:50,274
No, I was just asking about the, like, kind of, like, just the technical detail, I suppose,

361
00:40:50,274 --> 00:40:57,954
about, like, how difficult it is to just, like, modify the block template or an RPC request in

362
00:40:57,954 --> 00:41:04,833
order to, like, ACK, or not ACK a bundle, but in order to just add a new sidechain, like,

363
00:41:04,833 --> 00:41:08,193
to that 256. Like, I know it, I guess, like.

364
00:41:08,833 --> 00:41:13,153
Yeah, I think, okay, so, like, for the Blind Merged Mining, not really at all,

365
00:41:13,873 --> 00:41:18,593
because it's very blind on purpose. But for deposit and withdrawal, yeah,

366
00:41:18,593 --> 00:41:21,553
to create the new sidechain, they do kind of have to put, they have to make, like,

367
00:41:21,553 --> 00:41:27,634
a Coinbase transaction. So, of course, the miners edit their Coinbase transaction all

368
00:41:27,634 --> 00:41:33,793
the time to put, like, you know, the graffiti in there, like, which mining pool mined the block

369
00:41:33,793 --> 00:41:38,674
and stuff, which is interesting. And then they have, like, for SegWit, you know, it became

370
00:41:38,674 --> 00:41:44,034
mandatory to have the witness discount block, to have this Coinbase output. So

371
00:41:46,194 --> 00:41:52,353
they certainly know how to do it. And we have a block maker software that works with CUSF,

372
00:41:53,314 --> 00:42:00,274
Core OnTouch Soft Fork, so that might interest you, the block maker software. And I don't know

373
00:42:00,274 --> 00:42:05,314
exactly the easiest way to find the official latest version, but I think if you go to

374
00:42:06,433 --> 00:42:13,153
either the LayerTwoLabs.com, like, I mean, excuse me, the GitHub slash layer2labs repository section,

375
00:42:14,114 --> 00:42:25,873
or BIP300QSYF.com, B-I-P-300-C-U-S-F.com, it does link, there's, like, because that is a part of

376
00:42:25,873 --> 00:42:32,353
having the Core OnTouch Soft Fork, is, like, okay, you have Bitcoin Core, then you have the

377
00:42:32,353 --> 00:42:36,513
Soft Fork Activator. But when they make the template, when they make a new block,

378
00:42:37,793 --> 00:42:42,513
every miner is going to want to make absolutely sure that they make a block that

379
00:42:43,314 --> 00:42:47,073
isn't invalid and that collects as many fees, as much fees as possible.

380
00:42:48,593 --> 00:42:55,153
So that is important that the block constructor sort of be in there.

381
00:42:55,153 --> 00:43:01,153
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, thanks. And then, I guess, if you, does that work in any way,

382
00:43:01,153 --> 00:43:04,274
in particular, with, like, the SimplePool software that you're building, like,

383
00:43:04,274 --> 00:43:06,274
or they're just kind of unrelated?

384
00:43:07,073 --> 00:43:10,993
Ideally, they'd all be modular, and they'd all be really, really good, and et cetera, et cetera.

385
00:43:11,554 --> 00:43:17,633
SimplePool, I'm really worried that people are, some people are very interested and excited about

386
00:43:17,633 --> 00:43:22,114
it, but I think other people think, like, it's trying to replace Foundry or something.

387
00:43:23,153 --> 00:43:28,834
This is supposed to be, it was supposed to be something, like, Foundry would operate

388
00:43:29,793 --> 00:43:33,474
ideally, maybe not Foundry specifically, because Foundry has those extra stuff where they have,

389
00:43:33,474 --> 00:43:39,073
like, I think they KYC everyone at Foundry, and I think they produce, like, reports,

390
00:43:39,073 --> 00:43:42,993
like, audit reports. This is why everyone wants to go public, I think, is over there.

391
00:43:42,993 --> 00:43:48,034
But ideally, Foundry, everyone would run this, and then they'd run, like, some other stuff on

392
00:43:48,034 --> 00:43:54,353
top of it. The point of this is that I think it's a very bad situation to be in where we don't know

393
00:43:54,994 --> 00:44:01,793
what, we don't necessarily know what software all the mining pools are running, and it's harder

394
00:44:01,793 --> 00:44:08,994
for us to start up a new pool without, like, developing one, so I just thought it should be

395
00:44:08,994 --> 00:44:13,233
a really, really good project to have an open source mining pool, and so among all of the

396
00:44:13,233 --> 00:44:16,994
different projects that we do, that's just one of them, and I still think it'd be, like,

397
00:44:18,114 --> 00:44:23,473
it should be one of the top, you know, it should get more attention than, like, the Lightning

398
00:44:23,473 --> 00:44:30,994
Network. It's never going to happen, but still, like, this is an important thing where,

399
00:44:34,513 --> 00:44:39,154
you know, okay, so, yeah, SimplePool should do a lot of stuff, like, the pool hopper,

400
00:44:39,154 --> 00:44:43,073
and there's going to be, like, payouts on the L2, so you have 8 billion miners, because you can't

401
00:44:43,073 --> 00:44:47,714
have 8 billion miners unless you actually have 8 billion people get paid out, so SimplePool is

402
00:44:47,714 --> 00:44:56,114
pretty ambitious, even though it's very simple also, and it should be, ideally, SimplePool would

403
00:44:56,114 --> 00:45:00,834
expand, and it would include, like, all types of, like, firmware stuff, and it would include

404
00:45:00,834 --> 00:45:08,353
all the different, like, how to signal for soft forks, how to signal for, you know, how to

405
00:45:11,633 --> 00:45:16,674
show your opinion, and how to enforce the CUSF soft forks, Core Untouched Soft Fork,

406
00:45:16,674 --> 00:45:23,073
so ideally, it would all be wrapped up into there at some point, and ideally, it'll be modular, so,

407
00:45:23,073 --> 00:45:28,193
yeah. But it's easy to, like, run this stuff on the Signet that you have set up, correct, or, like,

408
00:45:28,193 --> 00:45:33,714
that's how it was tested, or? Well, of course, the pool doesn't make that much sense on Signet,

409
00:45:34,913 --> 00:45:41,313
because there's no mining, but it's still possible to test, still good tests,

410
00:45:41,633 --> 00:45:47,633
and so, yeah, and I think, you know, these days, it's never been easier to,

411
00:45:48,834 --> 00:45:54,913
for people to write software, and especially something like this, where mining, pooled

412
00:45:54,913 --> 00:46:00,674
mining has been done, you know, for whatever, 10, 15 years, so it should be possible to create

413
00:46:00,674 --> 00:46:08,834
something that is very competitive, because as I tried to look around, you know, I looked around

414
00:46:08,834 --> 00:46:13,633
for months and months, maybe I just didn't find it, I don't know, but you can't really find, like, good

415
00:46:14,834 --> 00:46:20,834
open source mining pool software that I could find, and you can't really find, even stuff like

416
00:46:20,834 --> 00:46:25,874
Stratum v2, I thought it was actually not in very good shape, and it's been going on and on for

417
00:46:25,874 --> 00:46:33,793
something like seven years, and I thought it's, like, bad ideas, bad design, not even executed, not

418
00:46:33,793 --> 00:46:42,434
even finished, so I thought we could do better, you know, I guess, like, it should be

419
00:46:42,434 --> 00:46:47,954
possible, I suppose, then, to just use that Blocka core-to-software creator, and, like, mine yourself

420
00:46:48,513 --> 00:46:51,633
during the fork to add your own sidechain, if you wanted to.

421
00:46:54,594 --> 00:46:58,674
Yeah, if you, well, you know, it doesn't, I think they're separate issues, like, of course, you

422
00:46:58,674 --> 00:47:03,793
could solo mine or mine with the pool, I can imagine a situation where either of those two

423
00:47:03,793 --> 00:47:10,513
people don't know how to actually add, okay, what we had was a long time ago, and I think we still

424
00:47:10,513 --> 00:47:16,193
have this, because maybe, like, a long time ago, when we had, like, old rudimentary version of

425
00:47:16,193 --> 00:47:20,513
Drivechain that we're just kind of fooling around with, but still, this would have been, like, 2020

426
00:47:20,513 --> 00:47:27,394
or something, we had this Bitcoin QT, it was a fork of Bitcoin 1699, and in that, the QT client, you

427
00:47:27,394 --> 00:47:33,313
could, like, add, propose a sidechain, there were, like, little buttons you could click, and you could

428
00:47:33,313 --> 00:47:42,913
act, if you mind, if you solo mine with the CPU. Now, of course, that's not practical, but the point is,

429
00:47:42,913 --> 00:47:49,874
I think Bitwindow, I think Bitwindow, like, copied all that stuff over from that of the QT client.

430
00:47:51,714 --> 00:47:55,633
I'm not sure, I gotta double check, but I think you could still press buttons, so, you know what I mean,

431
00:47:55,633 --> 00:48:00,753
it's at the GUI level, where you can, like, type it out and click, and then they'll show up,

432
00:48:00,753 --> 00:48:06,434
the proposed sidechains, then you can, like, click a button. So, yeah, ideally, Bitwindow would then be

433
00:48:06,434 --> 00:48:12,034
talking to, like, the pool hopper, and it's funny, all this stuff is actually related, because

434
00:48:13,234 --> 00:48:18,673
a lot of the OP_RETURN drama, which is all nonsensical, but a lot of that is related to,

435
00:48:18,673 --> 00:48:25,873
like, the fact that we relay transactions, like, in a kind of communist, hippie way, where the

436
00:48:25,873 --> 00:48:34,113
transaction relay is done, like, for free among the nodes, and if instead you just directly connect

437
00:48:34,113 --> 00:48:38,034
it to the pool and submitted your transaction, none of this idea of the whole, the difference

438
00:48:38,034 --> 00:48:44,594
between a transaction standardness to transaction validity and transaction standardness, that

439
00:48:44,594 --> 00:48:48,034
distinction would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and this whole idea could never

440
00:48:48,034 --> 00:48:54,354
have come up. So, the whole debate over OpReturn for the last year, or year and a half, or whatever,

441
00:48:55,794 --> 00:48:59,714
that whole debate was kind of partially kicked off by

442
00:49:01,714 --> 00:49:06,993
Slipstream, maybe, or, like, Marathon's idea of just, you can just paste the transaction here,

443
00:49:06,993 --> 00:49:11,714
and we'll just, you can go right directly to the miner, like, miner direct.

444
00:49:12,673 --> 00:49:17,394
This idea, of course, that idea is super old, like, whatever, Bitmain and whatever, and

445
00:49:17,394 --> 00:49:21,873
AntPool and stuff used to do that. They used to be, during the block size war, the blocks were full,

446
00:49:21,873 --> 00:49:28,594
and there was no RBF replaced by fee, so you could go to, I don't remember exactly who it was,

447
00:49:28,594 --> 00:49:33,553
I think it was maybe, like, AntPool, and you could go, and you could paste your transaction ID

448
00:49:34,193 --> 00:49:39,873
that was stuck, and you could pay with a credit card, okay, you actually pay with the, you know,

449
00:49:40,034 --> 00:49:43,474
you pay with the U.S. credit card, and it would, like, move it up the line,

450
00:49:45,154 --> 00:49:50,433
and that was, like, replaced by fee with a credit card, because people, people like Rod

451
00:49:50,433 --> 00:49:55,313
Javier's $10,000 transaction is stuck, and then if you try to rebroadcast with everyone, it would

452
00:49:55,313 --> 00:49:59,873
say it's invalid, and, because it's a double spend, so all kinds of wacky stuff would happen.

453
00:49:59,873 --> 00:50:03,873
I don't know if this makes any sense at all. No, it does, yeah, like, and all the effort that

454
00:50:03,873 --> 00:50:08,113
has been put into the mempool when it's, like, not really even used for mining at all, and it's

455
00:50:08,113 --> 00:50:12,673
kind of, if there's not, like, full blocks and things like this, it's not really that helpful

456
00:50:12,673 --> 00:50:19,394
to even really, like, work on that software, like, cluster mempool, they put so many hours and years

457
00:50:19,394 --> 00:50:25,954
into that on core, and, you know, now it's just sort of, like, circumvented by all the

458
00:50:27,234 --> 00:50:32,594
knots nodes that kind of, like, destroy the heuristics I think they were using in order to

459
00:50:33,154 --> 00:50:38,914
have, like, shared mempool state, and then also, like, you know, it's too slow for miners to

460
00:50:38,914 --> 00:50:43,394
actually use to construct blocks, so then they just have their own, like, mega pool

461
00:50:44,193 --> 00:50:49,234
that they support separately, but, like, I mean, I guess, like, testing the mempool stuff is way

462
00:50:49,234 --> 00:50:55,873
harder, you know, in order to do that, you know, before the network is alive either. I spun up,

463
00:50:55,873 --> 00:51:03,954
like, a little private signet in order to test, like, block, you know, sidechain stuff, and that's,

464
00:51:03,954 --> 00:51:08,274
I guess, why I'm asking. I was just, I think I could do it then on my own where I just propose

465
00:51:08,274 --> 00:51:17,794
a sidechain, maybe edit stuff to the bit window to do that. Yeah, and so that's really cool.

466
00:51:18,753 --> 00:51:26,113
I think it made me, it reminded me, okay, because you asked previously about, like, will it all be,

467
00:51:26,113 --> 00:51:32,594
to what extent is it all related, and I do think bit window would have in it, like, it should be

468
00:51:32,594 --> 00:51:42,274
possible for the software to know a lot about which mining pools exist and, like, what their IP

469
00:51:42,274 --> 00:51:46,594
address is and, like, what their name is and stuff, so it should be possible without, like, human

470
00:51:46,673 --> 00:51:53,794
intervention just from, like, looking at the blockchain in the network for the whole network

471
00:51:53,794 --> 00:51:58,914
to know where the mining pools are and for bit window to know, like, how to connect to them so

472
00:51:58,914 --> 00:52:04,673
that bit window itself has, like, a thing where it will just submit your transaction to the different

473
00:52:04,673 --> 00:52:11,954
mining pools, and I think, you know, I just wanted to repeat what I said before about, like, this is

474
00:52:11,954 --> 00:52:19,873
kind of a weird flaw in bitcoin or kind of a quirk of bitcoin, and it doesn't really, it's kind of a

475
00:52:19,873 --> 00:52:22,993
quirk because on one hand it doesn't work, and then, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter,

476
00:52:23,633 --> 00:52:27,154
so the fact that it doesn't work, it doesn't make any difference, but sort of slipstream was saying

477
00:52:27,154 --> 00:52:32,354
just give us your transaction and we'll bypass everyone's mempool, and then the nots people were

478
00:52:32,354 --> 00:52:37,073
saying, well, this is not allowed in my mempool, and then you had, like, you know, the anti-nots

479
00:52:37,073 --> 00:52:43,553
people say, they would say correctly that, well, hey, you can just run it in with, you can just run

480
00:52:43,553 --> 00:52:49,954
it with no mempool, but you, I think you, and you can tell, you seem like you kind of know what

481
00:52:49,954 --> 00:52:53,714
you're talking about, you can see, like, all these people are kind of, like, talking past each other

482
00:52:54,673 --> 00:53:00,673
and because, like, the nots people, they don't, they don't really want to run a node that has no

483
00:53:00,673 --> 00:53:05,394
mempool, but the question is, like, what do they think this is achieving, and I don't know, the

484
00:53:05,394 --> 00:53:11,073
answer is me, I don't have no idea, but yeah, I know, I think it, it really is just, like, almost, like, just

485
00:53:11,073 --> 00:53:17,714
trying to get rid of the usage of layer one, except for, like, automated, like, open channel type stuff,

486
00:53:17,714 --> 00:53:23,474
that's, like, at least what the core route seemed to have been going for largely with, even since RBF,

487
00:53:23,474 --> 00:53:30,193
I suppose, like, that was the dream, and then, and then I think the nots people kind of don't really

488
00:53:30,274 --> 00:53:35,394
even care for lightning that much and just kind of want more, which is kind of strange, because

489
00:53:35,394 --> 00:53:39,714
they want, I think, more utilization of the main chain, but they don't want inscriptions and things

490
00:53:39,714 --> 00:53:46,354
like that, so they're, I don't know, that's what I see as being the, exactly, it makes, it's really a circle,

491
00:53:46,354 --> 00:53:52,433
it doesn't make any sense, we have someone up, a new person, palter blank, welcome, but it doesn't

492
00:53:52,433 --> 00:53:59,954
make any sense, because today, bitcoin maximalism basically means using bitcoin as little as

493
00:53:59,954 --> 00:54:07,394
possible, it's, like, it's really bizarre, it's, like, flipped around, I don't know exactly what's going on

494
00:54:07,394 --> 00:54:12,274
myself, but the nots people, you know, they're, they're sort of, like, they really think, like, it's

495
00:54:12,274 --> 00:54:16,753
important how many nodes there are and how many mempools there are, but really, this whole thing

496
00:54:16,753 --> 00:54:24,113
is just a confusion, and if, instead, the network was set up to be pool aware, you could just, you would

497
00:54:24,113 --> 00:54:28,914
just send, you would just submit the transaction to a pool, it would be clear to you why you would

498
00:54:28,914 --> 00:54:36,354
want to do that, or, and it would be clear to the pool why they would want to accept it, because

499
00:54:36,354 --> 00:54:41,633
they get the fee, and it would also be clear, I think, spy mining hadn't been invented or it wasn't

500
00:54:41,633 --> 00:54:46,433
appreciated until, like, 2015, 2016, so it was a few years in bitcoin, so people thought, well, if we just

501
00:54:46,433 --> 00:54:51,633
submit it to a pool, the pool will just keep it for, keep the, all the transactions for themselves,

502
00:54:52,354 --> 00:54:57,553
and then the bigger pools will get bigger, and none of that happens, because the pools connect to each

503
00:54:57,553 --> 00:55:03,154
other, those of you in the audience who are interested, the pool just, each pool sends out, like, a little

504
00:55:03,154 --> 00:55:09,474
tiny mercenary spy to all, they connect as if they're mining, so they all, all the pools know what

505
00:55:09,474 --> 00:55:14,753
each other pool is doing, thanks to spy mining, because the pool has to tell them exactly what

506
00:55:14,753 --> 00:55:21,954
block to find, so it's kind of works itself out, and I think they mostly just don't want to be

507
00:55:21,954 --> 00:55:31,794
mining on an invalid block, like a stale block, yeah, and there's, there's some privacy concerns about,

508
00:55:31,794 --> 00:55:35,474
oh, hey, if you have to submit directly to the pool, then the pool knows, like, when they submit your,

509
00:55:35,474 --> 00:55:41,553
when you submit your IP, like, when you, when you connect to them, it's like, oh, but, you know, people

510
00:55:41,553 --> 00:55:47,873
can beat that now, now that, you know, with VPNs and stuff, so, I just, so, again, I don't think it's that

511
00:55:47,873 --> 00:55:52,914
big of a deal, the bigger deal is, apparently, that so many people are so confused about what the mempool

512
00:55:52,914 --> 00:55:58,433
does, and many people care, I guess, just more of, like, an empirical question, like, what type of

513
00:55:58,433 --> 00:56:05,474
software do you think is, like, the most costly to write in this process, you mean, out of everything

514
00:56:05,474 --> 00:56:11,234
that I've been doing, yeah, yeah, everything I've ever touched, are we talking about, like, just

515
00:56:11,313 --> 00:56:18,433
hardest, like, in terms of, like, the human cost, or, like, the creativity, or the, or just the actual, like,

516
00:56:18,433 --> 00:56:24,513
raw engineering, like, working, ironing out all the, well, I suppose, yeah, I guess I'm not factoring in

517
00:56:24,513 --> 00:56:29,954
the ideas that you've already, like, come up with, but, like, yeah, the implementation of a lot of these,

518
00:56:31,234 --> 00:56:36,034
you know, like, distributed systems and stuff, I feel bad if we get, well, I'll answer your question,

519
00:56:36,034 --> 00:56:42,594
but let's see, we got, what's her name, what is it, Poulter, someone here, Mr. Poulter Blank, and we

520
00:56:42,594 --> 00:56:50,193
should maybe let them talk, but if, until they talk and interrupt us, I'll answer your question, which

521
00:56:50,193 --> 00:56:54,193
is, okay, I made one huge, I made, like, one huge blunder, I think, if you actually are interested,

522
00:56:54,193 --> 00:57:00,354
which is, we had this 01699 Bitcoin Core, and it worked with Drivechains,

523
00:57:00,913 --> 00:57:06,114
for, you know, like, for a long time, like, years ago, of course, it's very rudimentary, and, you know,

524
00:57:06,114 --> 00:57:09,474
we were just hacking around and messing around with it, and we had lots of stuff, like, I had a

525
00:57:09,474 --> 00:57:13,793
comma, and to separate the eight decimal points, we had all kinds of, like, funny stuff, so this was,

526
00:57:13,793 --> 00:57:21,313
like, the wacky Paul Sztorc software, and it was kind of, like, nuts, and it was just, like, we

527
00:57:21,313 --> 00:57:26,594
threw in all kinds of stuff, we had a block explorer, like, in the Bitcoin QT client, but because of the

528
00:57:26,594 --> 00:57:35,313
way QT works, and the way Qt core works, so, you know, there was, like, there's no way we were

529
00:57:35,313 --> 00:57:39,634
ever going to get a pull request into Bitcoin Core for all this stuff that we added, we were just, like,

530
00:57:39,634 --> 00:57:45,874
having fun, and it's kind of a little bit, like, live Bitcoin, we're just, like, doing our own thing,

531
00:57:45,874 --> 00:57:51,234
just, like, a, you know, like, a flying saucer, just hovering around, but the point is, then I decided,

532
00:57:51,234 --> 00:57:55,874
okay, well, listen, instead of doing the pull request to Bitcoin Core from BIPs 300301, we could just

533
00:57:55,874 --> 00:58:01,474
write this enforcer, but the big mistake was, I didn't, all I forgot was, I really already had an

534
00:58:01,474 --> 00:58:10,193
enforcer, the Bitcoin QT project, that was the fork of Bitcoin 1699, that already would have

535
00:58:10,193 --> 00:58:15,474
worked, it could have just scanned all the blocks, like, in parallel, and then given a thumbs up, thumbs

536
00:58:15,474 --> 00:58:20,594
down, and then you could have Bitcoin Core call, invalidate block, so basically, I did a ton of work

537
00:58:21,474 --> 00:58:30,114
to create what is the current Rust-based BIPs 300301 enforcer, and kind of in retrospect, I think

538
00:58:30,114 --> 00:58:35,634
it's possible that it could have done all that work, all that work was for no reason possible, not

539
00:58:35,634 --> 00:58:40,673
necessarily, but, so that was a kind of wacky story, I'm not sure if that really answers your question.

540
00:58:40,673 --> 00:58:45,313
No, yeah, that does, for sure, yeah, that, it seems like, yeah, that invalidate block, the thing that actually

541
00:58:45,313 --> 00:58:51,153
activates, like, the drivetrain through core and touch soft fork is, like, probably, like, the most

542
00:58:51,153 --> 00:58:57,954
high assurance, so, like, took a lot more work. That one can't be, if that one has any bugs, it's very bad,

543
00:58:57,954 --> 00:59:03,634
because, yeah, because the pitch for the core and touch soft fork is, you don't have to modify Bitcoin Core,

544
00:59:03,634 --> 00:59:09,634
but you can run this thing next to Bitcoin Core, but then if the thing you run next to Bitcoin Core

545
00:59:09,634 --> 00:59:15,234
is, like, crashing, or, like, really misbehaving, then they'll just think, oh, why did I do this?

546
00:59:16,594 --> 00:59:22,033
This was a bad, this was a mistake, so then they shut it off, and then BIPs 300301 deactivates,

547
00:59:22,033 --> 00:59:26,673
and then it's, like, a, you know, that's not good, because then anyone can take all the money out of

548
00:59:26,673 --> 00:59:33,393
the L2s, so that would not be good, although it's, you know, it's no different than any other

549
00:59:33,393 --> 00:59:39,234
soft fork in that way, but, yeah, of course, the idea of Q-sieve is that it's so difficult

550
00:59:39,234 --> 00:59:46,114
to get anything done in Bitcoin Core that we, that's basically the only option.

551
00:59:47,263 --> 00:59:54,463
And it seems like a lot of the design decisions, yeah, flow down from the core and touch, like,

552
00:59:54,463 --> 00:59:58,943
the invalidate block call, and then, like, how you activate everything, like, that's what I found

553
00:59:58,943 --> 01:00:06,303
to be the best way of understanding, I suppose, the software. Yeah, and BitWindow, that's way more

554
01:00:06,303 --> 01:00:11,583
of a move fast and break things situation, so BitWindow has tons of, like, bells and whistles,

555
01:00:11,583 --> 01:00:16,463
it has all kinds of crazy stuff on it, and, of course, BitWindow, you know, ideally, it would

556
01:00:16,463 --> 01:00:21,503
look nice on all three operating systems, and it would have, like, different screen resolutions and

557
01:00:21,503 --> 01:00:26,463
stuff, so that one is kind of, like, more of, like, an infinite project where that would, like, never

558
01:00:26,463 --> 01:00:31,262
be completed, you know, like, you would just keep iterating on it, like, forever, so there's a

559
01:00:31,262 --> 01:00:36,382
different sense in which that one would consume the most total hours, but it's a completely different

560
01:00:36,382 --> 01:00:42,623
type of project, and it is, if there's problems with BitWindow, it almost doesn't matter, because

561
01:00:42,623 --> 01:00:48,623
you could still, people could still fall back on using, like, their phone wallet or any kind of,

562
01:00:48,623 --> 01:00:54,143
like, you know, they could even use the, something rudimentary, or they could use the RPC

563
01:00:55,422 --> 01:01:02,783
to, like, save all of their spend and receive coins on L1, so BitWindow is, like, totally

564
01:01:03,342 --> 01:01:09,102
superfluous. It's, like, just a cosmetic thing, but that one would consume a lot of time. Then there's

565
01:01:09,102 --> 01:01:14,143
all the different L2s, so, like, Thunder is just L2 with large block sizes, but we ran the

566
01:01:14,143 --> 01:01:21,102
hackathon last year to see who could optimize the performance, and so that was a lot of, a lot of

567
01:01:21,102 --> 01:01:29,263
smart people optimized the software, made it super fast. That's very, very different from

568
01:01:30,143 --> 01:01:34,223
something, you know, when I did Truthcoin DC, which is, like, my prediction market thing,

569
01:01:34,223 --> 01:01:39,823
which is, like, this really bizarre, really creative thing that was, like, super ahead of

570
01:01:39,823 --> 01:01:46,143
its time. It was, like, prediction markets on Bitcoin back in the year 2013, so that was, like,

571
01:01:46,143 --> 01:01:53,662
this wild idea back then. Now it's been, what, 13 years, so people have slowly caught up to me,

572
01:01:54,302 --> 01:01:59,423
but, yeah, we got another new person. I don't know if we've done a poll to blank. It doesn't seem

573
01:02:00,623 --> 01:02:08,942
in the talkative mood, but we also have Dev3 something, whatever, so, hello.

574
01:02:10,142 --> 01:02:15,823
Yeah, hi, Paul. Thank you for having me up. I've recently been labeled as one of your haters.

575
01:02:16,703 --> 01:02:22,862
Kind of astounded that you don't read Leet. It's Dave Toshi. Thank you for having me up here.

576
01:02:23,662 --> 01:02:27,502
I think I've maybe erroneously been added to this list of haters.

577
01:02:27,502 --> 01:02:31,823
I think the discussion was regarding the way that you've chosen to distribute.

578
01:02:31,823 --> 01:02:38,222
I guess, like, a fair question would be, do you view a great bootstrapping for a new chain

579
01:02:38,222 --> 01:02:42,382
that's supposed to be the future of scaling through Drivechains and the tech that you've

580
01:02:42,382 --> 01:02:48,063
put together to be distributed to a lot of people, a large proportion of people who are diametrically

581
01:02:48,063 --> 01:02:52,942
opposed to the idea as sell pressure, like on day zero and at zero cost?

582
01:02:54,942 --> 01:03:00,942
Well, it's a good question. The whole idea of the Satoshi half airdrop is to kind of split

583
01:03:00,942 --> 01:03:07,183
the difference to some extent, so that it's like, on one hand, it rewards BTC holders.

584
01:03:07,183 --> 01:03:12,703
On the other hand, anyone who is like a big supporter, an early supporter,

585
01:03:13,423 --> 01:03:17,983
they get disproportionately more. So it's supposed to kind of split the difference there.

586
01:03:17,983 --> 01:03:21,823
So I guess my question for you would be, what would it be instead? Like,

587
01:03:21,823 --> 01:03:27,022
you could either do a pure altcoin. Yeah. What's your preferred thing?

588
01:03:28,063 --> 01:03:32,942
Well, I mean, I'm sure that I don't have to talk to you about the merits of a fair launch.

589
01:03:35,263 --> 01:03:36,302
I think that's something that's fair.

590
01:03:36,302 --> 01:03:39,343
Yeah, but what's the fair launch, though?

591
01:03:39,742 --> 01:03:46,543
It's like zero allocated apart from perhaps like you've taken some strategic capital,

592
01:03:46,543 --> 01:03:51,022
which I think is a great idea, by the way. So which is why I'm a little bewildered as to why

593
01:03:51,022 --> 01:03:57,423
I landed on the hater list. I think that was a great idea with Satoshi's piece of the pie.

594
01:03:58,302 --> 01:04:01,823
That strategic capital is probably going to help in the long run. But for the rest of it,

595
01:04:01,823 --> 01:04:09,503
why not start from zero, from Genesis? Why would you want to have a duplicate of every single

596
01:04:09,503 --> 01:04:16,862
asset in ordinals and Bitcoin holdings? Would you want the rich list as you see it today,

597
01:04:16,862 --> 01:04:23,422
MicroStrategy, BlackRock, a couple of large funds to hold the lion's share of your token?

598
01:04:23,422 --> 01:04:26,542
What would make you think that they're aligned with your vision?

599
01:04:26,623 --> 01:04:34,542
Well, not all of them are. First of all, you could think about it this way. Okay, maybe Michael

600
01:04:34,542 --> 01:04:41,503
Saylor owns, I don't know, 5% or whatever it is throughout his various... So that means that he

601
01:04:41,503 --> 01:04:47,422
would get an F, right? And 95% are not Michael Saylor. So that's an A plus, or an A at least.

602
01:04:48,142 --> 01:04:51,582
So actually, most of them are not. I think there's a few people who are allowed

603
01:04:52,463 --> 01:05:00,542
and a lot of people who are quiet. And the quiet people are in many ways smarter. If you own

604
01:05:00,542 --> 01:05:06,943
Bitcoin, why tell anyone about it? So I think it is certainly the case that the community

605
01:05:08,702 --> 01:05:15,422
adds a lot of value to a project. You can look at, for example, when Bitcoin Cash did its hard fork,

606
01:05:15,422 --> 01:05:20,223
I thought that the Bitcoin Cash hard fork would have a lot of value. But I think it's

607
01:05:21,103 --> 01:05:29,663
a long list of problems, like bad ideas, bad implementation. But still, on the day that it

608
01:05:29,663 --> 01:05:35,343
actually debuted, which is something like November or something, this is where...

609
01:05:35,903 --> 01:05:38,783
I know it's confusing for anyone who's going to go back and research the timeline. They're

610
01:05:38,783 --> 01:05:42,463
going to see, well, it was created on August 1st. But trust me, if you lived through it,

611
01:05:42,463 --> 01:05:45,982
no one was talking about it at all. Everyone was talking about SegWit2x

612
01:05:45,982 --> 01:05:52,383
until November 7th or something. So the real first day that Bitcoin Cash debuted,

613
01:05:52,383 --> 01:05:56,142
and when someone like some of the big, large blockers who abandoned SegWit2x said,

614
01:05:56,142 --> 01:06:03,103
this is the next big thing. This was back in 2017. But Bitcoin Cash went up and it became the number

615
01:06:03,103 --> 01:06:08,063
two coin for a day. It flipped Ethereum for one day. And then, of course, it didn't

616
01:06:08,383 --> 01:06:16,142
maintain that performance. But I think that speaks to the fact that...

617
01:06:16,142 --> 01:06:21,903
Okay, so here's another fun fact for you. I don't know. I used to do this trick and add it up,

618
01:06:21,903 --> 01:06:28,783
but I haven't looked recently. But I'm pretty sure if you cut the Bitcoin market cap in four,

619
01:06:29,663 --> 01:06:38,223
you cut it 25%. You cut it to 25%. I think it's still bigger than Ethereum.

620
01:06:38,223 --> 01:06:46,702
So most of the world is Bitcoin. And a lot of this other stuff is not very good.

621
01:06:46,702 --> 01:06:54,383
And there is a sense in which Bitcoin is more than just a project that a few people own.

622
01:06:54,383 --> 01:07:04,623
It is a public movement to achieve something. And I think that it's worth respecting that.

623
01:07:06,142 --> 01:07:11,022
And also, you've contradicted yourself a little bit because you're saying if you raise money for

624
01:07:11,822 --> 01:07:17,103
the war chest, then how can you... You have to do a pre-mine then. So you said a fair

625
01:07:17,103 --> 01:07:22,063
launch with zero allocation. But then how do you do the money?

626
01:07:22,542 --> 01:07:28,463
Oh, no. I hadn't contradicted myself. I've baked in an excuse for you. To the contrary,

627
01:07:30,302 --> 01:07:35,742
you've already done that raise, haven't you? So it's like we can't retroactively unraise the money,

628
01:07:36,943 --> 01:07:37,982
unless I misunderstood.

629
01:07:40,542 --> 01:07:47,903
Well, you can undo things. You can undo anything you do. It's not true that anything you can undo.

630
01:07:47,903 --> 01:07:57,582
But I'm saying that a zero from scratch would be better, is my opinion on that.

631
01:08:00,702 --> 01:08:06,702
Well, I think I just have to disagree because I think then how can you reward the people who

632
01:08:07,343 --> 01:08:11,422
try to make sure that it's a high quality project when it's actually created and released?

633
01:08:13,343 --> 01:08:17,582
By having them contribute to the network the same way they did with Bitcoin.

634
01:08:18,383 --> 01:08:21,182
And every other fair launch proof of work coin.

635
01:08:21,983 --> 01:08:30,942
I don't know. Think about it like this. Satoshi had to work for free for a long time.

636
01:08:31,582 --> 01:08:39,182
Then he launched BTC for free. And then he mined it like he was the only miner for a little while.

637
01:08:40,142 --> 01:08:45,582
So he had to pay for the electricity and all that stuff. He got nothing for any of that work.

638
01:08:46,543 --> 01:08:51,743
Now, I think that's actually a mistake. I'm not actually comfortable with a world where

639
01:08:51,743 --> 01:08:58,142
a genius inventor also has to be independently wealthy and altruistic in order to bring his idea

640
01:08:58,142 --> 01:09:05,423
out into the world. I think that's a big mistake. Of course, he must have known a lot of things

641
01:09:05,423 --> 01:09:10,783
at the time where he thought like, OK, did he, though, you know, did he have to be independently

642
01:09:10,863 --> 01:09:17,343
wealthy? I mean, maybe to afford working, like to be able to put in the time possibly,

643
01:09:17,343 --> 01:09:22,543
but to mine the network, to switch on a single CPU and run a node? I don't think he needed to

644
01:09:22,543 --> 01:09:27,663
be independently wealthy for that. Did he? No, I'm talking about the time, the engineering

645
01:09:27,663 --> 01:09:33,423
time and the risk and all that. Yeah. I mean, it's like a multi-year project. Probably.

646
01:09:34,942 --> 01:09:39,343
That I can't disagree. So someone like, yeah, someone who's that smart, you know,

647
01:09:39,423 --> 01:09:44,382
could have worked and poured their time into some other thing, you know, whatever,

648
01:09:46,223 --> 01:09:51,022
whatever thing was popular at the time. So, yeah, that's like multi-hundred thousand dollar

649
01:09:52,303 --> 01:10:00,062
outlay up front, you know, when there's no. So I just think that's that. I think that's barbaric,

650
01:10:00,062 --> 01:10:05,103
actually. And I think there are capitalist world is it's better if you have someone down the street

651
01:10:05,103 --> 01:10:10,463
who thinks they have a better strategy for mowing lawns, but they need a three thousand

652
01:10:10,463 --> 01:10:15,822
dollar lawnmower. And you have an old retiree who has a bunch of cash under the mattress that

653
01:10:15,822 --> 01:10:20,062
they're not using for anything and that the two of them should be able to cooperate to make the

654
01:10:21,423 --> 01:10:27,663
innovation happen faster. Why would we want to wait for the kid to work as a waiter for

655
01:10:27,663 --> 01:10:33,423
10 years to save up for this lawnmower? That seems like it could if you if you put it into

656
01:10:33,423 --> 01:10:38,303
that frame. But if you take it out of that frame and put it back into the reality of like launching

657
01:10:38,303 --> 01:10:43,502
a proof of work chain today, I don't think you'd be in that scenario at all. I think there's plenty

658
01:10:43,502 --> 01:10:48,863
of people that are that have hardware and that are ready to spin up and mine. So I don't think

659
01:10:48,863 --> 01:10:54,223
you would have that distribution problem where you would be the sole miner who needs to be

660
01:10:54,223 --> 01:11:00,062
independently wealthy on eCash. I think maybe it's not about the money. I think maybe what

661
01:11:00,062 --> 01:11:04,463
you're missing is just that like like all the Bitcoiners who currently exist who are developers

662
01:11:04,463 --> 01:11:10,062
who you would want on your project are already invested in Bitcoin. So if you just make something

663
01:11:10,062 --> 01:11:16,303
else, they could sell some of their Bitcoin in order to buy it. But many people won't like do

664
01:11:16,303 --> 01:11:20,543
that because of like switching costs or something like that. So you're saying they don't those would

665
01:11:20,543 --> 01:11:25,502
be people that don't believe in the project? Well, maybe they do, but for whatever reason,

666
01:11:25,743 --> 01:11:30,942
they don't come to that realization soon enough. And the guy who did realize it a little bit

667
01:11:30,942 --> 01:11:37,743
quicker than them got to it first. And you don't really want that first mover type of person in

668
01:11:37,743 --> 01:11:42,543
order to develop a project. I don't know if I would optimize for that. And I would also take

669
01:11:42,543 --> 01:11:47,582
a look at some of the evidence recently. Have you have you looked at what people are doing with

670
01:11:47,582 --> 01:11:53,022
airdrops recently in the crypto world? There's been a lot of very large airdrops this year.

671
01:11:53,022 --> 01:11:57,822
You can just take a look at how those networks. But I haven't. I don't think that any are

672
01:11:57,822 --> 01:12:03,663
comparable except for the Bitcoin Cash one, which I think is actually much worse than this one in

673
01:12:03,663 --> 01:12:09,663
a few ways, although better in one or two other ways. But I don't think like I mean, maybe you

674
01:12:09,663 --> 01:12:14,223
can give me an example. But I mean, for one reason is I haven't heard of it. I mean, that's I think

675
01:12:14,223 --> 01:12:18,942
partly why it's a bad idea. It's partly a clue to me. But yeah, why don't you give me an example?

676
01:12:18,942 --> 01:12:24,223
Oh, yeah, sure. They're plentiful. Like you could take a look at literally any launch

677
01:12:25,022 --> 01:12:29,743
that's happened in the past three years. They've been pretty much down only.

678
01:12:31,822 --> 01:12:35,343
Anything that's been I know, but can you just give me you can just give us an example,

679
01:12:35,343 --> 01:12:38,303
because my assertion is that we're not even talking about the same category.

680
01:12:38,303 --> 01:12:43,582
Sure. Would something like Monad work for you or mega ETH with those work is like blockchain

681
01:12:43,582 --> 01:12:47,743
blockchain? Yeah, I've heard of all of those. I don't actually know that much about them. So

682
01:12:48,062 --> 01:12:49,983
why don't you tell me like, how did they do the airdrop?

683
01:12:51,502 --> 01:12:57,182
There was a through various different ways through campaigns through I don't know,

684
01:12:58,142 --> 01:13:02,543
through owning certain like who gets through owning who gets the coin basically and

685
01:13:03,582 --> 01:13:08,702
owning certain assets and I don't know just I mean, why is it like a really hard question or

686
01:13:08,702 --> 01:13:12,622
something? I was I was thinking this would be an easy question like you for what I was expecting

687
01:13:12,622 --> 01:13:19,022
to say was it's actually on Monad last year, Monad gave every Bitcoin holder one coin each.

688
01:13:19,663 --> 01:13:26,463
And then there's 21 million Monad, etc. And then it and then you're gonna tell me about a disaster.

689
01:13:26,463 --> 01:13:29,903
That's like what I thought you were gonna say. I didn't expect you to say like various

690
01:13:29,903 --> 01:13:37,423
you were expecting. This is like that. You were expecting this to be just really simple.

691
01:13:37,423 --> 01:13:40,303
Yeah, that's unfortunately not how things work now.

692
01:13:43,182 --> 01:13:47,103
I know, but I don't think you know how I mean, you know, you may know how things work like over

693
01:13:47,103 --> 01:13:51,182
and I was that's what I was talking about with ETH is is very small compared to BTC.

694
01:13:52,382 --> 01:13:56,142
Yeah, this was really weird at the start.

695
01:13:56,142 --> 01:14:00,622
And still maybe by maybe by market cap in this whole like Bitcoin is the world

696
01:14:01,262 --> 01:14:05,582
thesis that you gave us before about cutting it into four pieces and it's still bigger than ETH.

697
01:14:06,142 --> 01:14:10,382
Yeah, that's when you're looking at market caps. What if you look at on chain activity?

698
01:14:10,382 --> 01:14:14,543
If you were to glance over the mempool right now, how much on chain activity do you see like

699
01:14:15,262 --> 01:14:19,182
the project that you're focusing on is to bring people on chain last time I checked.

700
01:14:19,182 --> 01:14:21,022
So the lion's share of that activity.

701
01:14:21,022 --> 01:14:25,663
Yeah, no, you're preaching to the choir. I was the one for years and years I would go on.

702
01:14:25,663 --> 01:14:29,822
You can find plenty of tweets of mine. If you scroll back, you'll see there's tweets where I

703
01:14:29,822 --> 01:14:37,343
have screenshots about how Ethereum has passed Bitcoin and transaction fees from like 2021 2020.

704
01:14:37,343 --> 01:14:43,743
I've been telling people to go to cryptofees.info. If you go people look up the recording for last

705
01:14:43,743 --> 01:14:47,903
week, they see and bring that up. So if we all the time. So I agree with you about that.

706
01:14:47,903 --> 01:14:51,103
Right. So if we were to divide by four, we would probably take something like

707
01:14:51,663 --> 01:14:55,743
transaction volume, maybe notional principle that's been transferred.

708
01:14:55,743 --> 01:14:59,983
Yeah. And I think if you divide Ethereum, if you divide Ethereum by four,

709
01:14:59,983 --> 01:15:02,702
I think it's still bigger than BTC transaction volume.

710
01:15:03,663 --> 01:15:07,262
So you're right. It's the opposite. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about

711
01:15:07,262 --> 01:15:11,103
that you're saying airdrops are a bad idea. And then I said, can you give me an example of one?

712
01:15:11,103 --> 01:15:15,343
And you said there's various examples. I could just give me an example of one that you think

713
01:15:15,343 --> 01:15:15,983
is comparable.

714
01:15:15,983 --> 01:15:20,543
Confidently that you could take a look at any airdrop that has happened over the past two

715
01:15:20,543 --> 01:15:25,262
years and look at the token price. It's not even questionable. It's overwhelming.

716
01:15:28,863 --> 01:15:31,663
I know, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for one example.

717
01:15:32,863 --> 01:15:33,343
Monad.

718
01:15:35,262 --> 01:15:38,303
Okay, but how does Monad explain to me how the airdrop worked?

719
01:15:40,303 --> 01:15:45,262
It's not a transparent metric. They didn't drop to only Bitcoiners, if that's what you mean.

720
01:15:46,702 --> 01:15:51,502
I know, but that's what this is, though. So I think that's a big difference,

721
01:15:51,502 --> 01:15:56,223
especially if it's so convoluted that it can't be explained in a few sentences to someone

722
01:15:56,223 --> 01:16:00,382
when it's their shining city on a hill example of something gone wrong.

723
01:16:01,343 --> 01:16:03,663
I just don't understand why I'm not getting the explanation.

724
01:16:05,582 --> 01:16:09,423
You're not getting the explanation because Monad has not produced

725
01:16:09,423 --> 01:16:15,182
a very clear airdrop guideline, nor have any of the networks really

726
01:16:15,182 --> 01:16:17,262
that have done an airdrop that I followed.

727
01:16:18,543 --> 01:16:24,223
But isn't this then much more straightforward? If you own Bitcoin, you get eCash. It's exactly

728
01:16:24,223 --> 01:16:28,062
the same, 21 million eCash with one exception.

729
01:16:29,022 --> 01:16:33,103
Yes, this one would be much more straightforward. I think the result would be the same.

730
01:16:37,022 --> 01:16:43,423
I think also, I don't know a lot about those other projects, Monad or MegaEth. I've heard

731
01:16:44,062 --> 01:16:52,782
both of them, but that's basically it. But yeah, this project, I believe that there will be one

732
01:16:52,863 --> 01:17:00,223
big cryptocurrency that survives, and it is used by 8 billion people at some point.

733
01:17:00,942 --> 01:17:07,503
And then the rest will be just collectors items, and they will not be worth very much.

734
01:17:08,143 --> 01:17:15,023
So yeah, I think it's 200 trillion to the victor, and everything else, zero, basically.

735
01:17:15,662 --> 01:17:22,302
So I'm not sure. Maybe it is, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But was Monad going out there saying,

736
01:17:23,263 --> 01:17:26,463
you know, this is our plan to get to 8 billion users?

737
01:17:27,103 --> 01:17:32,623
Yes, I think that's the plan and intent of every single network launch, including eCash. And if the

738
01:17:32,623 --> 01:17:37,263
one that you had in mind is Bitcoin, and the one that you envision going to zero is eCash,

739
01:17:37,263 --> 01:17:40,302
then airdropping, I think, is a great bootstrapping tech.

740
01:17:44,702 --> 01:17:49,263
Yeah, I mean, I just think that the community is really worth it. The community is

741
01:17:49,503 --> 01:17:57,743
the community is what makes it happen. And yeah, I think there have been a few loud people have

742
01:17:57,743 --> 01:18:02,942
kind of ruined everything. These are people who joined in after like 2020. And they make a lot of

743
01:18:02,942 --> 01:18:11,983
noise. And they own point 000003 Bitcoin. And, you know, then now they're weighing in, they joined

744
01:18:11,983 --> 01:18:19,343
in like 2021. And they're weighing in on like, CTV or something that was shipped, shipped project,

745
01:18:19,343 --> 01:18:23,263
like years before they even entered into the community, or they're weighing in an opportunity

746
01:18:23,263 --> 01:18:32,702
turn. And are those are some of the new people are not we want those people to sell and get out,

747
01:18:32,702 --> 01:18:40,143
they will they will destroy the BTC project. And if they don't sell, they'll just destroy any

748
01:18:40,143 --> 01:18:46,463
project that they they talk into? What if those are the exact same people that make up the volume

749
01:18:46,463 --> 01:18:57,103
that you see on Ethereum that you want on eCash? I think I don't think that's true, because actually

750
01:18:57,103 --> 01:19:04,782
the ordinals people are kind of the big transaction fee payers on BTC. And so even though I'm not like

751
01:19:04,782 --> 01:19:16,062
a big ordinals person, that was a clue of that actually the the people who are the users are

752
01:19:16,702 --> 01:19:22,542
breathing life into the project and other people are the people complaining about ordinals are

753
01:19:22,542 --> 01:19:30,383
like deranged cultists who are ignorant, mostly, and they're going to hold the project back and

754
01:19:30,383 --> 01:19:34,623
stop it from growing to satisfy their own weird like virtue signaling. We can use that as an

755
01:19:34,623 --> 01:19:39,263
example, actually, like, if you want it, it's it's funny that you bring that up. Here's a great

756
01:19:39,263 --> 01:19:44,702
example for airdrops. Why don't you take a look at the airdrops that were done to these ordinal

757
01:19:45,582 --> 01:19:49,343
enjoyers that you're speaking of, like, for example, dog go to the moon, and maybe just

758
01:19:49,343 --> 01:19:54,702
pull up the chart or take a look at our sick miners or any of the other stuff that you know,

759
01:19:54,702 --> 01:19:57,902
those people received and what they did with those assets.

760
01:19:58,454 --> 01:20:05,454
Spoiler. I mean, I would be like, they're, they're all at zero.

761
01:20:05,454 --> 01:20:19,454
Yeah, but do you really think this is the same as I've already forgotten? What was it dogs? I already forgot what the name is. That's, I think we've all already forgotten.

762
01:20:19,454 --> 01:20:48,454
Um, I think, like, this project is in kind of a different category than that. No offense, but you go to the LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends, you can see all the people who endorse BIP300. Not necessarily eCash, but BIP300. And you know, there's plenty of people up there, like a fiat job, creator of Nostra. He's like, basically, you know, it's a matter of life and death for Bitcoin, whether or not we get Drivechains on it.

763
01:20:50,454 --> 01:21:12,454
And, you know, Adam back saying that it was arguably Drivechain would have been more useful than then or more better or more useful than taproot. Um, so I don't think this is really the same as like, well, that's, that's my point is a lot of the airdrops they are, those are those are worth frivolities.

764
01:21:12,454 --> 01:21:36,454
And I think that has distracted people from the fact that the airdrop is actually a good idea. We should have more people doing Bitcoin hard forks, I think everyone gets free coins, people can sell or buy as they wish. And I think people should have privatized the coins too, because that encourages them to put a lot of effort in upfront to make sure coin is like a finished product when it launches.

765
01:21:37,454 --> 01:22:00,454
And you don't need like, maintainers, or these weird people that you have to trust, maintaining. So I think that my idea is, or just my entire list of ideas are all of them way, way, way better than just saying, Oh, someone launched a coin and airdropped it to ordinals holders. I just don't, you know, I just don't agree.

766
01:22:00,454 --> 01:22:11,454
One of the key distinctions is, is that you don't really need any new coins once you add a method that like successfully activate a sidechain in a, in like what Drivechains does.

767
01:22:12,454 --> 01:22:25,454
So hold on, let's just like, let's just put this on record since it's being recorded. So you don't envision there being massive downside pressure when you launch this given the distribution mechanism?

768
01:22:25,454 --> 01:22:35,454
Well, current market prices, it's not literally zero, I suppose, but I mean, down from what, like down from 76,000 per coin?

769
01:22:36,454 --> 01:22:43,454
Would you go for like opening day, like just, you know, a chart that looks like from top left to bottom right instead of the opposite?

770
01:22:44,454 --> 01:22:46,454
Yeah, but where does it open at though?

771
01:22:47,454 --> 01:22:57,454
We'll see. I think I'm sure people will speculate, but when it does, there's going to be a certain depth that people are going to print into the bids on, but okay.

772
01:22:58,454 --> 01:23:05,454
I mean, no, but what do you think? Is it really, this is, I mean, is it really such an unfair question? Like you're saying the chart is going to have a certain shape?

773
01:23:06,454 --> 01:23:07,454
You want me to value, you want me to like value it?

774
01:23:08,454 --> 01:23:10,454
You're going to predict the shape, but the average?

775
01:23:10,454 --> 01:23:11,454
Yeah, I don't know. It's fine.

776
01:23:12,454 --> 01:23:13,454
It doesn't make any sense to me.

777
01:23:14,454 --> 01:23:21,454
Okay. So people will, will bid in some kind of a pre-market or something. They'll come up with some valuation. Okay.

778
01:23:22,454 --> 01:23:23,454
Of course, but what do you think it's going to be?

779
01:23:24,454 --> 01:23:33,454
It'll probably come out higher than what it will be a week later and a week after that and a couple of weeks after that. That's, that's what a down valuation looks like.

780
01:23:33,454 --> 01:23:35,454
Have you heard of the efficient markets hypothesis?

781
01:23:36,454 --> 01:23:37,454
Yes. Yes, I have.

782
01:23:38,454 --> 01:23:40,454
It's all random walk.

783
01:23:41,454 --> 01:23:46,454
Have you looked at IPOs and chain genesis's for like the past, I don't know, a little more than a decade?

784
01:23:47,454 --> 01:23:55,454
I think as an economist, you see blatant violations. You know, the existence of efficient markets come from an arbitrage.

785
01:23:55,454 --> 01:23:56,454
The arbitrage doesn't exist unless there's an inefficiency.

786
01:23:57,454 --> 01:23:58,454
Right.

787
01:23:59,454 --> 01:24:00,454
Right.

788
01:24:01,454 --> 01:24:02,454
That's why we have volatility.

789
01:24:03,454 --> 01:24:12,454
There used to be a joke, IPO, it's probably overpriced. And even when they had the ICOs, I did a different joke. You can probably find all these jokes on Twitter.

790
01:24:13,454 --> 01:24:14,454
It's a wacky joke.

791
01:24:14,454 --> 01:24:32,454
You know, I've seen a lot of J.P. Morgan backed price to perfection IPOs in my lifetime that were never priced to perfection. So have you. So a down only chart, I think.

792
01:24:33,454 --> 01:24:35,454
It's like, you know, it's like throwing a party.

793
01:24:36,454 --> 01:24:51,454
I think there's a sense in which I agree with you, which is that the hard fork, it has a limited amount of time to prove itself. And it probably more than 50 percent chance it probably will not prove itself.

794
01:24:52,454 --> 01:25:18,454
So in that sense, you can expect the chart to go from the top left to the bottom right. But the question is, if everyone expects it to have that shape, then that can only be, I think, since you know about the efficient markets, you know that that that can only mean that it has something like a 10 percent chance of jumping way back over the initial top left number.

795
01:25:19,454 --> 01:25:24,454
It cannot you cannot have it predictably go down because then it would just start down.

796
01:25:25,454 --> 01:25:32,454
So I'm not sure exactly how to answer your question. I think this project has only, you know, a 10 ish percent chance of succeeding.

797
01:25:33,454 --> 01:25:45,454
So I think it should be expected to fail. But certainly if it succeeds, it will do much more than 10 X. It may even do 10,000 X or again, that's like now you're going to use the starting price that we've agreed.

798
01:25:45,454 --> 01:25:51,454
We don't know to price in a 10 X. Well, I have no idea what it is. I'm just curious to see your thought process.

799
01:25:52,454 --> 01:26:05,454
I can't really do either. Well, I guess, Dev, I just have a question. So like, don't you think that like the possibility of it becoming something that beats Bitcoin is something that like is worth like a tail risk that people wouldn't want to sell right away?

800
01:26:05,454 --> 01:26:20,454
I think if that's the case, people would be willing to contribute hash and talent and time, which are probably what it needs more than someone who's acquired a lion's share of Bitcoin or a very large portfolio. I'm not sure that.

801
01:26:20,454 --> 01:26:46,454
But we already have a lot of talent and the hash rate will follow the value of the coin and the transaction fee volume. So that's those two go hand in hand. But yeah, like a lot of talent has already been added. So I think people don't realize that this is like a project that we haven't been working on full time, but people have been like tinkering on this project for like eight years or so.

802
01:26:47,454 --> 01:27:05,454
And in the background, there are all kinds of people for all of Bitcoin's history have been saying, oh, we have to get rid of lightning. It doesn't work. And other people have been saying, oh, Paul's idea is actually really, really good. We desperately need this idea. So you can look at LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends.

803
01:27:06,454 --> 01:27:27,454
So this is not like just decided on a random Tuesday to launch a hard fork. And my only idea is for it to be a hard fork of Bitcoin. This is not what's happening at all. What's happening is that the BTC community has entered like a cultural death spiral where it can't talk about its own problems or fix them, even though fixing them would be relatively easy, but not in the current culture.

804
01:27:27,454 --> 01:27:44,454
It's basically impossible. And this is like a life raft escaping the sinking ship. And I'm not even sure what it would mean if this project failed. It might mean that Bitcoin was healthier than I thought, but it might also mean that Bitcoin is even more doomed than I thought. I'm not exactly sure. So this is not just...

805
01:27:44,454 --> 01:27:49,454
Well, you know, maybe I can like, I mean, first of all, thanks for having me up here, despite my life.

806
01:27:50,454 --> 01:28:17,454
It's not just whatever. Rigatoni, Moroni, I forgot. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for, you know, because a lot of people don't come. A lot of people are haters. And I think, okay, well, hey, come up and explain why you think it's because, you know, no serious person is going to say, oh, I could fit it all into a tweet, why this is a bad idea. So I think if someone really thinks it's a bad idea, they should definitely come up and we want to hear about why. So thanks for coming.

807
01:28:17,454 --> 01:28:43,454
That wasn't like parting words. I just I wanted to mention that we haven't really heard your idea of why. Like, you've obviously just said that you weighed all these things. So you looked at a fair launch and you said that's not a good idea. Well, what's the upside of doing it this way? How does it like you're trading off some cell pressure initially, which I think you conceded on during a conversation that there probably will be some initial cell pressure based on it being an airdrop.

808
01:28:43,454 --> 01:28:51,454
Like so you're trading that off against what exactly what what's like the what's the major upside to dropping to that rich list?

809
01:29:14,454 --> 01:29:32,454
You can't spend it for 100 coins, 100 blocks, excuse me. So so then 100 blocks later, like basically the next day, people can sell the first 50 coins. And it starts at like one hundredth of a cent. But it starts going up. It's going up and up and up and up and up and up.

810
01:29:32,454 --> 01:29:50,454
It starts for like start there, Paul. It starts where the buyer and seller agreed starts. Right. So that person who might know, but I was just giving you an example person in mind, the first block would be the seller. So he would have to find a buyer. It wouldn't start at zero or a fraction of a penny. It would start where they agreed to trade.

811
01:29:51,454 --> 01:30:05,454
Well, I was just kind of trying to copy Bitcoin. Bitcoin kind of started at zero and then it was 10,000 for two pizzas. And then it was, you know, so so I'm just saying like Bitcoin is because, OK, maybe I was giving a long winded explanation.

812
01:30:05,454 --> 01:30:29,454
So the short answer is I'm thinking like, OK, it's either you create something and then it's very illiquid on day one. But the price is low because it's brand new. It doesn't have a community and it doesn't have what it has. It has Paul behind it. It has the vision of a Drivechain empowered future. Like there's a lot baked into it. Like, I don't want to discount that.

813
01:30:29,454 --> 01:30:49,454
I don't think actually that's as good because if the Drivechain powered future is so good, then BTC will just end up because BTC could just activate Drivechain at any time. It's only because of the cultural derangement that they can't. So if they were cured of that misapprehension, then it would be it would be rough competing with BTC.

814
01:30:49,454 --> 01:31:13,454
If a coin that just launched like three or four months ago. But it would mostly be similar, I think. What I was saying is I think that, you know, the price is like a lot of people have this view about the whole the so-called sell pressure. But every every sell is a buy, as you just said. So it's also buying pressure.

815
01:31:14,454 --> 01:31:26,454
I know it's not a market to balance that. Right. And like, like, it obviously becomes overwhelmed when you have people that got something for free. It's just what we've seen often. But go ahead. Like, tell me what's the upside to the rich list?

816
01:31:27,454 --> 01:31:52,454
Well, for starters, okay, you can look at, because I lived through the BCH block size war. And even though there were so many people weighing in, you know, year, month after month, and etc, those people weighed in, and they complained about this, they said lightning sucks, or they said Bitcoin cash sucks, or they said everything sucks. So.

817
01:31:53,454 --> 01:32:16,454
But after a year afterwards, the UTXO sets had not diverged by more than a half, it was like 60% identical. And even if you only want to sell 1%, or a tiny portion of your coins, in a UTXO, you have to move the whole UTXO and it would count as divergent if you sell and then bought back.

818
01:32:17,454 --> 01:32:40,454
So most of the people in the BTC world, even in the BTC BCH split, most of them did not move their coins at all, either way. So I think those are the real Bitcoiners, and they didn't sell and they didn't, as far as I can tell, they didn't talk either.

819
01:32:41,454 --> 01:33:00,454
They just quietly held both. And that's, that's more than half after a year. So I think you're talking, you're focused kind of like on how the price chart looks. But I'm focused more on what do, what does the winning community want the most.

820
01:33:01,454 --> 01:33:16,454
And what they want is for to get everything for free in a gift wrapped box. And then they will, you know, if you respect them, they will respect you back, they'll say, aha, you know, right, this is what I want to be more of getting free.

821
01:33:17,454 --> 01:33:25,454
That's, that's part of why they have fraud proofs and optimistic roll ups is because like, you know, there has to be a correction for like this over optimism, doesn't there?

822
01:33:25,454 --> 01:33:35,454
You mean in optimism, in what sense from the BTC community that everything's going to work out and everyone will be rich?

823
01:33:36,454 --> 01:33:42,454
If we just airdrop to everybody, like they will believe enough of them will believe we'll put money in their pockets, but they're not going to take it now.

824
01:33:42,454 --> 01:34:05,454
I'm not necessarily asking. I mean, you have like a very interesting way of thinking about it, your way seems to be, if you airdrop to people, they'll sell and that's bad. But I'm kind of thinking like if we airdrop to people, then they'll sell and that's good, because now they found a buyer, they're thinking about the project.

825
01:34:06,454 --> 01:34:17,454
Whereas if instead you launch from zero coins, then it's much easier to ignore because no one has any coins, no one has any skin in the game, I would rather that people sell and actually do something than do nothing.

826
01:34:18,454 --> 01:34:33,454
If you did it, I mean, look, if you did it that way, okay, and SHA-256 was the algorithm, and let's say it was not merged, it was not, is it going to be, like, is OXPOW going to be enabled? Like, what would the miner choice be?

827
01:34:33,454 --> 01:34:41,454
No, the L1 is SHA-256, and it is not merged mined with BTC, the L2s are merged mined with L1.

828
01:34:42,454 --> 01:34:53,454
So the choice there would be pretty obvious, right? Like, each block would have an electric floor, wouldn't it? And it would also have the opportunity cost of mining Bitcoin instead, using the same algorithm. Therefore, like, each…

829
01:34:54,454 --> 01:35:07,454
Well, we cut the difficulty. The difficulty would be cut way down. So at first, it would be a no-brainer that you would mine it. You would, yes, you would mine the eCash, because the difficulty would be so low, even though the price is also low, they cancel out.

830
01:35:08,454 --> 01:35:21,454
I've seen, like, new networks launched. Like, you can look at Pearl. I think you might be underestimating, like, how many people will participate on day zero, like, at Genesis. I don't think that would be the case at all.

831
01:35:21,454 --> 01:35:23,454
I'm hoping more people will. I want more participants.

832
01:35:24,454 --> 01:35:49,454
I think you would have a lot of participants, and you would have a high electric floor, and you would have value beyond zero. A balance in your account would be an acquisition of eCash at zero. A mined coin with a much slower release schedule is an entirely different thing with an electricity floor baked into it.

833
01:35:50,454 --> 01:35:58,454
I mean, I think the difference between the two of us is I want people to sell. Does that make sense?

834
01:35:59,454 --> 01:36:13,454
I don't think you don't believe me, because you think that selling means the price is going down, but first of all, that's mathematically not possible. Actually, every sell is a buy. But I know what you mean. You mean that there will be people who don't value the thing, and they want to get rid of it.

835
01:36:14,454 --> 01:36:25,454
And they want to – we've got someone who wants to come up, and they are flashing the emoji, like, their heart – like, their life depends upon it. So we'll get them up, and then there's, like, a 20-second delay.

836
01:36:25,454 --> 01:36:30,454
Dave, forgive me, Dave. Forgive me for what I'm about to do, Dave. Paul, have you ever spoke to Dave before?

837
01:36:32,454 --> 01:36:33,454
No, I don't think so.

838
01:36:33,454 --> 01:36:45,454
I just wanted to get that out there. Dave happens to be locked into the early mining scene, so he is advocating for his bags to pump as soon as possible, I do believe, versus –

839
01:36:46,454 --> 01:36:47,454
Yeah, he doesn't want to hold –

840
01:36:47,454 --> 01:36:56,454
Ah, now it all comes out. Yes, he's got a bunch of – he's got a hydroelectric dam somewhere that he's – he knows where the –

841
01:36:56,454 --> 01:37:00,454
And he's been doing this to me every day this week, by the way. So come on, I'm just going to sit here and listen and laugh.

842
01:37:00,454 --> 01:37:11,454
Sure. You're speaking with a notorious troll who's, like, taking, I don't know, what seemingly was a good conversation about a fair launch versus a distributed launch and tried to –

843
01:37:11,454 --> 01:37:14,454
Okay, here's my real take, Dave. Here's my real take.

844
01:37:14,454 --> 01:37:20,454
You're being selfish, Dave, in that we do not onboard Bitcoiners with your method.

845
01:37:22,454 --> 01:37:34,454
But it's true, though. Everyone has their own thing that would benefit them slightly more. And this is, like, whatever you do is going to make a lot of people – of course, if you do the fair launch, then you lose all the Bitcoiners who say, hey, why don't I get free coins?

846
01:37:34,454 --> 01:37:35,454
Why should I give you any attention at all?

847
01:37:36,454 --> 01:37:44,454
I'd like an opportunity to slide back. DJAN also launched – he launched a proof-of-work coin, which happened to be a fair launch and did not airdrop to Bitcoin.

848
01:37:44,454 --> 01:37:47,454
Yeah, eight years ago. Okay, hold on. Relax, everybody.

849
01:37:47,454 --> 01:37:51,454
I'll just – I'll go ahead and point out the obvious hypocrisy there, but continue.

850
01:37:51,454 --> 01:38:06,454
Okay, yeah. So it's like if – is it really the worst thing? Let's imagine that you're someone like Michael Saylor. There's a hard fork.

851
01:38:06,454 --> 01:38:12,454
Now, of course, Michael Saylor hates – I mean I don't even know if he has – if he's thought about it enough to have a real opinion.

852
01:38:13,454 --> 01:38:23,454
My guess is no, honestly, having actually spoken to him. I have actually spoken to him a few times, and I think he doesn't even have any idea what any of this is and what's going on at all.

853
01:38:24,454 --> 01:38:36,454
But I think if he had an opinion, the opinion that's consistent with his previous comments is that he hates privacy, he hates innovation, he hates any software development.

854
01:38:36,454 --> 01:38:49,454
He's pro-ossification. He's pro a very naive form of ossification where he just kind of thinks that anything you touch is bad, even though the Bitcoin Core puts out new versions every six months and there's no way of stopping them.

855
01:38:50,454 --> 01:38:58,454
There's all these CVEs. There's this whole ecosystem of like – so this is like the – so my guess is he'd be a hater, long story short.

856
01:38:58,454 --> 01:39:04,454
Other than that, he's really friendly. So I guess he'd be a hater, and he'd want to sell.

857
01:39:04,454 --> 01:39:09,454
But the point is now you have to kind of go into a room, and you have to kind of have a little bit of a think, don't you?

858
01:39:09,454 --> 01:39:20,454
You have to kind of think, well, okay, I know that when it didn't matter at all, and I was just bullshitting online – this is me being Michael Saylor, by the way.

859
01:39:20,454 --> 01:39:30,454
So he was like, when it didn't matter at all, and I was just bullshitting online, I said I didn't actually care about any of this stuff, privacy, development, whatever, innovation, soft forks.

860
01:39:31,454 --> 01:39:38,454
But now actual money is on the line, and now they have to think, well, wait a minute, do I actually really believe any of this stuff?

861
01:39:38,454 --> 01:39:42,454
Should I sell all of this, or should I sell half of it?

862
01:39:42,454 --> 01:39:46,454
So it draws people's attention to the actual ideas.

863
01:39:46,454 --> 01:39:49,454
It says, well, now they have to actually care.

864
01:39:49,454 --> 01:39:54,454
If they do that, then I'm guaranteed to win because I have the best ideas in all the lands.

865
01:39:54,454 --> 01:40:00,454
So that's better than just saying, oh, I launched a new coin starting at zero.

866
01:40:02,683 --> 01:40:07,683
That does have some advantages, but the short answer is that –

867
01:40:07,683 --> 01:40:16,683
It's just two different crowds. For example, you're targeting people that have been in Bitcoin for a lot longer, been in crypto space for a lot longer by doing it the way you're doing it.

868
01:40:16,683 --> 01:40:30,683
But also, I think Dave does kind of have a point. Let's say Michael Saylor is that way. He can destroy the entirety of the liquidity by himself for whatever you got going on at Binance or wherever down the road.

869
01:40:30,683 --> 01:40:35,683
So there is some truth to that where it's like, dude, some of these people got –

870
01:40:35,683 --> 01:40:36,683
Yeah, but how much liquidity –

871
01:40:36,683 --> 01:40:45,683
It's amazing that a notorious troll was able to maintain sensibility for just half a second. That was one of the greatest things I think I've ever heard him say.

872
01:40:45,683 --> 01:40:51,683
Can we not steal Satoshi's coins? Let's steal Saylor's coins instead, Paul. What do you think about that? Is that better or worse?

873
01:40:51,683 --> 01:40:54,683
Well, that joke has been made many times.

874
01:40:54,683 --> 01:40:57,683
It's not a joke. This is a serious suggestion.

875
01:40:57,683 --> 01:41:04,683
You know, it's actually funny. I'll get to that in a second. But let me first – oh, you made me lose my train of thought. I was going to ask you. Oh, I was going to say, how much liquidity do we have now?

876
01:41:04,683 --> 01:41:06,683
Which is the answer is zero. We don't have any.

877
01:41:06,683 --> 01:41:16,683
So even if Saylor nukes liquidity for like three weeks, we're still in a better position than we are right now. And then on week four, that'll be like the real day one.

878
01:41:17,683 --> 01:41:24,683
And then, you know, it kind of makes it hard to complain for all these people who are like, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I hate eCash.

879
01:41:24,683 --> 01:41:31,683
People will be wondering in the back of their head. They'll be thinking, wait a minute. Is this one of those – you know, do they like sell all their – is that the real reason why?

880
01:41:31,683 --> 01:41:35,683
And then they'll think, oh, you know what? I could be the new Michael Saylor if I just buy up all these cheap eCash.

881
01:41:35,683 --> 01:41:39,683
So I think it still leaves you with a lot of opportunities.

882
01:41:40,683 --> 01:41:46,683
I'll play devil's advocate with my own argument for a second, if I may.

883
01:41:46,683 --> 01:41:54,683
I don't think that that's really the upside to distributing to the rich list so much as handing people tokens to play with on your network.

884
01:41:54,683 --> 01:42:02,683
So they wouldn't have to acquire tokens. They would be able to participate on Drivechains with something in their wallets when they had nothing before.

885
01:42:02,683 --> 01:42:04,683
That would be the main thing.

886
01:42:04,683 --> 01:42:06,683
What are you saying? Like giving away for free? Is that what you're saying?

887
01:42:06,683 --> 01:42:12,683
That would be the main thing that you would accomplish. When I was asking you what the upside is, wouldn't that be one of the major upsides?

888
01:42:12,683 --> 01:42:17,683
Yeah. So you think that's a good thing? I can't even tell.

889
01:42:17,683 --> 01:42:21,683
I think he's suggesting that that's better than just giving it to the rich list.

890
01:42:21,683 --> 01:42:26,683
But here's the thing. If you add them together, it's the same thing. If you give them to the rich list and they immediately sell –

891
01:42:26,683 --> 01:42:31,683
No, no, no. Distribution lessens the likeliness of it all impacting the price simultaneously.

892
01:42:31,683 --> 01:42:36,683
So more distribution, it goes less price impact direction right away.

893
01:42:36,683 --> 01:42:49,683
Well, one thing about the price, though, is that even the haters – like if you're a hater and you want to sell, you still want the price to be high when you sell.

894
01:42:49,683 --> 01:43:00,683
So it does kind of create a little bit of a – even the people who hate it, all the owners become shills, even the haters.

895
01:43:00,683 --> 01:43:06,683
Right, but at the beginning, you're going to get this effect like he was explaining earlier, like what we got with Bitcoin Cash, but probably less.

896
01:43:06,683 --> 01:43:12,683
But isn't that basically – but that was the point I was going to make earlier, but isn't it basically the same thing?

897
01:43:12,683 --> 01:43:22,683
If you start with a few coins being mined, now you have a crazy volatile price or maybe no price because there's not enough liquidity or this is only like an OTC desk or something.

898
01:43:22,683 --> 01:43:28,683
And so either way, you're looking at like three or four weeks of kind of just total chaos before you settle on a price.

899
01:43:29,683 --> 01:43:30,683
Right. So it's kind of like –

900
01:43:30,683 --> 01:43:36,683
Let's compare it. Let's say you give it to the whales, right? Then you have one whale, just a single guy. He has, let's say, 0.5% of all Bitcoin.

901
01:43:36,683 --> 01:43:42,683
He's now going to have 0.5% of all eCash. That same 0.5% of the supply could have gone to 20,000 people, right?

902
01:43:42,683 --> 01:43:52,683
So that's the – I think that's the argument here is what's the tradeoff between like just directly rewarding the rich list versus like how do we intelligently spread out the coins to make a better distribution?

903
01:43:52,683 --> 01:44:02,683
But I don't think like having 20,000 people separately owning it is really much of a benefit. Like you want it to be in people who are going to like incentivize development.

904
01:44:02,683 --> 01:44:10,683
Not necessarily. Like those people that incentivize development are going to leave the chain in three years after you pay them and go to Solana. So like that's not really a –

905
01:44:11,683 --> 01:44:16,683
No, I agree with JK that it's like, okay, we could give it to 20,000 people, but it's like pearls before swine.

906
01:44:16,683 --> 01:44:27,683
Like they have – everyone has an opportunity now today to just buy BTC and then they're in for eCash. And if they're not – if they don't want to join this –

907
01:44:27,683 --> 01:44:30,683
I would just be cautious not to fall for this old school Bitcoin mentality. This is what you guys do.

908
01:44:30,683 --> 01:44:34,683
This is the same thing the Bitcoin Cash community did that caused it to be so behind the times.

909
01:44:34,683 --> 01:44:39,683
Like you cannot be so royal about everything. Like, oh, we know better because we're Bitcoiners.

910
01:44:39,683 --> 01:44:47,683
Like the industry has moved on and there's new standards that you guys have to understand at the minimum so that when you do not comply with those standards of the community, you can at least explain yourself.

911
01:44:47,683 --> 01:44:56,683
I think they're wrong. Like straight up. I think that basically everything in crypto has just been living off the corpse of Bitcoin and there's not a whole lot of value to these projects. It's just a lot of gambling.

912
01:44:56,683 --> 01:45:00,683
Yeah, sure. But I mean like that doesn't have to do with 20,000 people.

913
01:45:01,683 --> 01:45:14,683
I would agree with that and I would also agree – yeah, I would also – I think we're really trying to get the best of both worlds here, which is we want the innovation to be captured via the Drivechain L2s.

914
01:45:14,683 --> 01:45:23,683
But we also want the L1 to not really change that much and we don't want it to be the subject of all these weird campaigns, whatever, Bitcoin XT, hard fork, SegWit2x.

915
01:45:24,683 --> 01:45:30,683
So these are some things that we want and we're trying to have it split the difference and have our cake and eat it too.

916
01:45:30,683 --> 01:45:41,683
So I think that it's funny because this project is criticized as being too big of a change in the BTC world and then you're saying, well, BTC doesn't change enough.

917
01:45:41,683 --> 01:45:50,683
Yeah, but all the BTC people are fucking morons, absolute fucking worthless morons. Like everyone on this app is a fucking retard. I don't know why their opinion matters for even a split second though.

918
01:45:51,683 --> 01:46:05,683
Well, that's part of the thing about the 20,000 people maybe shouldn't get it because someone who's a big concentrated – they used to be called blockholders in the stock market world, but that doesn't make sense in the blockchain world.

919
01:46:05,683 --> 01:46:16,683
But it's like these big owners, they have more of a – maybe that's someone who can make a phone call or make something happen for you and so that could be a lot better.

920
01:46:16,683 --> 01:46:30,683
Okay, now wait. We got to get to stealing sailors coins as a joke because there is something to it, which is – okay, in order to do that, just hypothetically, you would need to know which UTXOs are his.

921
01:46:30,683 --> 01:46:39,683
And the irony there is that Saylor hates Bitcoin privacy, and he has made all these videos about maybe you don't need a Monero, you can look it up.

922
01:46:39,683 --> 01:46:53,683
He's like – or he says maybe you need a Monero. Even Peter McCormick asked him like, hey, what about these people who live in like whatever, like under an authoritarian state and they're here for the subversive – they want a property right to their – they want privacy.

923
01:46:54,683 --> 01:47:10,683
And he's like – and Michael Saylor has this answer that's just horrendous from a – well, basically in lots of ways where he just says, well, maybe you need a Monero, and then he says, and then the market will determine that, which is just another way of saying like I haven't given it any thought and I don't know what we're talking about.

924
01:47:11,683 --> 01:47:24,683
And so that's the thing is he – Michael Saylor lives in the world where everything is done with SOC reports and there's a corporatization of everything, and so there's an official balance sheet with an account and everything.

925
01:47:24,683 --> 01:47:26,683
So that's the irony is that the privacy –

926
01:47:26,683 --> 01:47:34,683
What are we even talking about here? He just sold 32 corn to go cover a dividend payment. What are we even weighing here?

927
01:47:34,683 --> 01:47:38,683
Oh, you think they're going under? That's what you're saying?

928
01:47:39,683 --> 01:47:54,683
No, I'm saying that deleting – we should – this is not a serious suggestion, but it's a decent – the idea that everyone who doesn't care about privacy, we should round up their UTXOs and just delete them or take those.

929
01:47:55,683 --> 01:48:09,683
I don't think that's the point that we're making. I think the point we're making is it's a distribution mechanic of – it's a mathematical thing when there's one person with 5% – this happens on every single shitcoin launched ever, etc., etc.

930
01:48:09,683 --> 01:48:18,683
We see it every single day. If someone has 5 or more percent of a supply, they are a detrimental fucking risk to the entire community, that single person.

931
01:48:18,683 --> 01:48:21,683
And you can say, oh, well, they're not going to sell, but you don't know that.

932
01:48:22,683 --> 01:48:23,683
No, I want them to sell.

933
01:48:23,683 --> 01:48:33,683
Well, that's going to destroy whatever trajectory you have for a year, that kind of stuff, a whole year, not three weeks, not four weeks, a year, two years, three years of downward pressure is what you're going to see.

934
01:48:33,683 --> 01:48:34,683
So don't forget that part, I think.

935
01:48:34,683 --> 01:48:36,683
But that's up from zero, so I guess that's –

936
01:48:36,683 --> 01:48:40,683
No, it's not. No, it's not. It's up from wherever they sold it from, the first person to get on an exchange.

937
01:48:40,683 --> 01:48:46,683
So if me and Dave go wash trade on the first exchange, you guys at some fucking trillion-dollar market cap, that is the starting market cap, my dude.

938
01:48:46,683 --> 01:48:47,683
It doesn't matter what you say it is.

939
01:48:47,683 --> 01:48:48,683
Not really.

940
01:48:48,683 --> 01:48:52,683
Yes, it is, on the chart, on every data point, on every tracking mechanism.

941
01:48:52,683 --> 01:48:57,683
Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I agree with JK that it doesn't matter.

942
01:48:57,683 --> 01:49:01,683
If you fall into a coma and you wake up and you say, well, right now, there's no eCash cloud there.

943
01:49:01,683 --> 01:49:02,683
It's going to matter, my dude.

944
01:49:04,683 --> 01:49:06,683
Maybe. I don't think so, though.

945
01:49:06,683 --> 01:49:09,683
Well, take it from us, cable shitcoiners, you guys just sat around acting like shitcoiners.

946
01:49:09,683 --> 01:49:12,683
We are telling you the way it's going to play out, so have fun.

947
01:49:12,683 --> 01:49:19,683
Well, hey, you know that in Bitcoin's history, there have been a few times where the price has gone sideways and down for multiple years.

948
01:49:19,683 --> 01:49:24,683
All I'm saying is you're going to have a Bitcoin cash chart for four or five years if you do it this way.

949
01:49:24,683 --> 01:49:26,683
And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

950
01:49:26,683 --> 01:49:28,683
I'm just telling you, that's what you're getting into right now.

951
01:49:28,683 --> 01:49:29,683
I don't think four or five years.

952
01:49:29,683 --> 01:49:30,683
No, I don't think four or five years.

953
01:49:30,683 --> 01:49:31,683
100%.

954
01:49:31,683 --> 01:49:33,683
I will be buying 99% down at the bottom.

955
01:49:33,683 --> 01:49:34,683
You know what I'm saying?

956
01:49:34,683 --> 01:49:35,683
Like, just watch.

957
01:49:37,683 --> 01:49:39,683
I don't think four or five years.

958
01:49:40,683 --> 01:49:41,683
It's talking about three months.

959
01:49:41,683 --> 01:49:42,683
It's talking about four weeks, you know?

960
01:49:42,683 --> 01:49:43,683
That's what I'm saying.

961
01:49:43,683 --> 01:49:44,683
It's going to be a long time.

962
01:49:44,683 --> 01:49:47,683
I've seen Bitcoin crash 50% in a single day.

963
01:49:47,683 --> 01:49:48,683
And it really depends.

964
01:49:48,683 --> 01:49:53,683
Like, if people really get mad at you for taking Satoshi's coins or whatever, half of them or whatever, and that becomes a narrative that you don't want to fight against.

965
01:49:53,683 --> 01:49:59,683
Because, again, you guys aren't very good at fighting off of these, like, behemoth narrative groups, you know, where they're like, oh!

966
01:49:59,683 --> 01:50:03,683
I know, but when the project launches, there will be a whole group of new owners.

967
01:50:03,683 --> 01:50:05,683
Exactly the point, Paul!

968
01:50:05,683 --> 01:50:08,683
So if you give 20,000 people some coins, you'll have a bigger army!

969
01:50:08,683 --> 01:50:09,683
Here's a question, Degen, for you.

970
01:50:09,683 --> 01:50:12,683
But wouldn't I rather have one good person?

971
01:50:12,683 --> 01:50:13,683
I guess you got it figured out.

972
01:50:13,683 --> 01:50:14,683
Arguably.

973
01:50:14,683 --> 01:50:15,683
Let me ask.

974
01:50:15,683 --> 01:50:25,683
So, like, basically, Degen, why do you think these other, like, Proof of Stake or any other of these altcoins are not doing the fork, the foundation coins off, and then, like, make their own thing?

975
01:50:25,683 --> 01:50:28,683
Because that would seem – that's what I always –

976
01:50:28,683 --> 01:50:29,683
We should have been doing that.

977
01:50:29,683 --> 01:50:30,683
We should have been doing that, yeah.

978
01:50:30,683 --> 01:50:31,683
Yeah, but why aren't they?

979
01:50:31,683 --> 01:50:33,683
I think there would have been a better way to do it this way long term.

980
01:50:33,683 --> 01:50:35,683
But I think we got off into token land.

981
01:50:35,683 --> 01:50:40,683
We got lost in token land on ETH, and then we came to Solana, and then it became 1,000 L2s.

982
01:50:40,683 --> 01:50:49,683
So people – all the people in this industry that were onboarded in that phase, they just have a different understanding of the space than people that were onboarded through UTXO chains back in the era, right?

983
01:50:49,683 --> 01:50:51,683
So, like, yeah, I agree with you.

984
01:50:51,683 --> 01:50:53,683
But, again, like I said, the industry has changed.

985
01:50:53,683 --> 01:51:00,683
My old understanding of crypto, very much like your guys' is right now, had to be updated to not go crazy, right?

986
01:51:01,683 --> 01:51:03,683
These things are realities, right?

987
01:51:03,683 --> 01:51:12,683
The way that a distribution affects the playing of a chart, the way that the chart actually matters long term because every single day someone's going to screenshot it and post it on the timeline.

988
01:51:12,683 --> 01:51:18,683
Things like – they don't seem like they matter in conversation, but in practice, they're going to bite you in the ass.

989
01:51:18,683 --> 01:51:24,683
So, like, distribution is the healthiest way to fight against those things, period.

990
01:51:24,683 --> 01:51:25,683
No other stat comes close.

991
01:51:26,683 --> 01:51:30,683
Distribution, if there was a stat for it, would be far more important than market cap, than price, than everything.

992
01:51:30,683 --> 01:51:32,683
I think in terms of stability, yes.

993
01:51:32,683 --> 01:51:39,683
But I think in terms of volatility, like Paul was talking about, that is kind of like the opposite of what happened with Bitcoin and its rise.

994
01:51:39,683 --> 01:51:40,683
Okay.

995
01:51:40,683 --> 01:51:43,683
Is it fair to – you're right, JK.

996
01:51:43,683 --> 01:51:47,683
And I don't think anybody's necessarily wrong here, and we don't matter.

997
01:51:47,683 --> 01:51:49,683
Paul matters.

998
01:51:49,683 --> 01:51:50,683
And it seems like –

999
01:51:50,683 --> 01:51:51,683
I'm just curious.

1000
01:51:51,683 --> 01:51:53,683
You said distribution is the most important thing.

1001
01:51:53,683 --> 01:51:54,683
What's the perfect distribution?

1002
01:51:54,683 --> 01:51:55,683
I'm just curious.

1003
01:51:55,683 --> 01:51:57,683
As wide and as long term as possible is the perfect distribution.

1004
01:51:57,683 --> 01:51:59,683
There's no number for it.

1005
01:51:59,683 --> 01:52:01,683
It's like security, right?

1006
01:52:01,683 --> 01:52:02,683
It's the other side of security.

1007
01:52:02,683 --> 01:52:04,683
Like you can never have perfect security.

1008
01:52:04,683 --> 01:52:05,683
There's no measurement for security.

1009
01:52:05,683 --> 01:52:06,683
Okay.

1010
01:52:06,683 --> 01:52:07,683
Here.

1011
01:52:07,683 --> 01:52:09,683
Look, putting the coins –

1012
01:52:09,683 --> 01:52:10,683
What does it mean, though?

1013
01:52:10,683 --> 01:52:11,683
You're saying, like, have it just –

1014
01:52:11,683 --> 01:52:14,683
Most people possible over a period of time continually.

1015
01:52:14,683 --> 01:52:16,683
You would say airdrop it to, like, 18 people.

1016
01:52:16,683 --> 01:52:17,683
Not necessarily airdrop it.

1017
01:52:17,683 --> 01:52:20,683
Maybe claims, maybe faucets, whatever way you can do it.

1018
01:52:20,683 --> 01:52:21,683
Get as many people in as you can.

1019
01:52:21,683 --> 01:52:22,683
Okay.

1020
01:52:23,683 --> 01:52:24,683
A faucet?

1021
01:52:24,683 --> 01:52:25,683
Now I'm giving them away for free.

1022
01:52:25,683 --> 01:52:27,683
The faucet is a zero-price seller.

1023
01:52:27,683 --> 01:52:28,683
Don't give, like, an endless –

1024
01:52:28,683 --> 01:52:31,683
You're worried about Michael Taylor selling for 10 cents?

1025
01:52:31,683 --> 01:52:33,683
You give a penny, and that person is going to be onboarded,

1026
01:52:33,683 --> 01:52:36,683
and the cost of acquisition has now become a penny for a new user.

1027
01:52:36,683 --> 01:52:37,683
You see what I'm saying?

1028
01:52:37,683 --> 01:52:39,683
Like, it's just better.

1029
01:52:39,683 --> 01:52:40,683
No, at all.

1030
01:52:40,683 --> 01:52:43,683
The faucet is giving them away for selling them at zero.

1031
01:52:43,683 --> 01:52:45,683
A faucet is not going to affect your price.

1032
01:52:45,683 --> 01:52:49,683
The guy that has 3% that is willing to just clip out is going to affect your price.

1033
01:52:50,683 --> 01:52:52,683
I mean, I don't know.

1034
01:52:52,683 --> 01:52:54,683
It doesn't sound that airtight to me.

1035
01:52:54,683 --> 01:52:55,683
It doesn't sound very thought out.

1036
01:52:55,683 --> 01:52:58,683
All you're doing is exposing yourself for not trading in altcoins enough.

1037
01:52:58,683 --> 01:52:59,683
That's all you're doing right now.

1038
01:52:59,683 --> 01:53:00,683
Honestly.

1039
01:53:00,683 --> 01:53:01,683
I focused on –

1040
01:53:01,683 --> 01:53:03,683
You know, I'm obsessed with the fundamentals.

1041
01:53:03,683 --> 01:53:04,683
I am, too.

1042
01:53:04,683 --> 01:53:05,683
So, I know that there's a whole –

1043
01:53:05,683 --> 01:53:06,683
You have to know both sides.

1044
01:53:06,683 --> 01:53:07,683
You can't just leave it to one side only.

1045
01:53:07,683 --> 01:53:08,683
Can I just weigh on it?

1046
01:53:08,683 --> 01:53:12,683
Like, the tradeoff here is that, from what Paul has expressed,

1047
01:53:12,683 --> 01:53:16,683
is that he believes that he's going to airdrop the rich list,

1048
01:53:16,683 --> 01:53:18,683
and they may dump the tokens.

1049
01:53:18,683 --> 01:53:19,683
He doesn't really care,

1050
01:53:19,683 --> 01:53:22,683
but people will have some tokens to play with on the new drivechain.

1051
01:53:22,683 --> 01:53:25,683
And that's traded off against the sell pressure,

1052
01:53:25,683 --> 01:53:28,683
which is going to mount up against the market depth,

1053
01:53:28,683 --> 01:53:31,683
which, albeit, will be pretty slim at the beginning.

1054
01:53:31,683 --> 01:53:34,683
And you are going to have people in the rich list

1055
01:53:34,683 --> 01:53:36,683
who single-handedly could set the token to zero,

1056
01:53:36,683 --> 01:53:38,683
just like a pump fund shitcoin.

1057
01:53:38,683 --> 01:53:40,683
I have problems with that mechanic.

1058
01:53:40,683 --> 01:53:41,683
He doesn't.

1059
01:53:41,683 --> 01:53:43,683
But it's just me.

1060
01:53:43,683 --> 01:53:44,683
I think so.

1061
01:53:44,683 --> 01:53:45,683
From this perspective,

1062
01:53:46,683 --> 01:53:47,683
I mean, Bitcoin Maximus,

1063
01:53:47,683 --> 01:53:51,683
basically, I view this, and the whole idea is

1064
01:53:51,683 --> 01:53:53,683
it is overtaking the Bitcoin culture

1065
01:53:53,683 --> 01:53:56,683
as being the true Bitcoin culture of building

1066
01:53:56,683 --> 01:53:59,683
and letting the Michael Saylor take the name.

1067
01:53:59,683 --> 01:54:01,683
I mean, I don't think that –

1068
01:54:01,683 --> 01:54:03,683
The culture came from fair launches.

1069
01:54:03,683 --> 01:54:05,683
No, that's not –

1070
01:54:05,683 --> 01:54:06,683
Like, from when?

1071
01:54:06,683 --> 01:54:08,683
Nobody was in the launch of Bitcoin.

1072
01:54:08,683 --> 01:54:12,683
It basically was not a launch at all.

1073
01:54:12,683 --> 01:54:13,683
But it had its distribution phase,

1074
01:54:13,683 --> 01:54:15,683
where it was worthless for years and years and years,

1075
01:54:15,683 --> 01:54:17,683
and people were able to get in.

1076
01:54:17,683 --> 01:54:20,683
You couldn't spin up a node and solo mine?

1077
01:54:20,683 --> 01:54:22,683
Yeah, I think you're right.

1078
01:54:22,683 --> 01:54:24,683
He's saying it wasn't that widely known.

1079
01:54:24,683 --> 01:54:26,683
The same thing in practice, though.

1080
01:54:26,683 --> 01:54:28,683
Like, very few people knew about it,

1081
01:54:28,683 --> 01:54:30,683
and so it's kind of debatable.

1082
01:54:30,683 --> 01:54:32,683
Like, it wasn't like,

1083
01:54:32,683 --> 01:54:33,683
yeah, okay, in one sense,

1084
01:54:33,683 --> 01:54:36,683
anyone had the opportunity to mine.

1085
01:54:36,683 --> 01:54:37,683
It's kind of like saying

1086
01:54:37,683 --> 01:54:40,683
anyone has the opportunity to invent eCash or whatever.

1087
01:54:40,683 --> 01:54:42,683
It's like anyone has the opportunity

1088
01:54:42,683 --> 01:54:44,683
to do whatever they want to do.

1089
01:54:44,683 --> 01:54:46,683
Okay, so if we take passing of time –

1090
01:54:46,683 --> 01:54:48,683
I feel bad, though, that we had one person –

1091
01:54:48,683 --> 01:54:50,683
we had one or two people request,

1092
01:54:50,683 --> 01:54:53,683
get admitted as a speaker, and then –

1093
01:54:53,683 --> 01:54:55,683
I think that's just Twitter being dogshit a lot of the time.

1094
01:54:55,683 --> 01:54:57,683
That happens all day.

1095
01:54:57,683 --> 01:54:59,683
Let's see if someone wants to –

1096
01:54:59,683 --> 01:55:00,683
if Justin wants to say anything,

1097
01:55:00,683 --> 01:55:02,683
we should rope him in.

1098
01:55:02,683 --> 01:55:05,683
We can continue to talk about the same topic or whatever.

1099
01:55:05,683 --> 01:55:06,683
I don't know.

1100
01:55:06,683 --> 01:55:07,683
Sorry, I can't remember.

1101
01:55:07,683 --> 01:55:08,683
Be friendly.

1102
01:55:08,683 --> 01:55:11,683
So what software do you guys particularly find interesting

1103
01:55:11,683 --> 01:55:12,683
that needs to be added,

1104
01:55:12,683 --> 01:55:16,683
or what type of technical ads

1105
01:55:16,683 --> 01:55:18,683
are things you're following?

1106
01:55:18,683 --> 01:55:21,683
Way for Drivechains to talk to one another, for example.

1107
01:55:21,683 --> 01:55:24,683
I don't know if you looked at the IBC standard,

1108
01:55:24,683 --> 01:55:26,683
or how are the chains going to talk to one another?

1109
01:55:26,683 --> 01:55:29,683
I'd love to know that from a technological standpoint.

1110
01:55:29,683 --> 01:55:30,683
But why –

1111
01:55:30,683 --> 01:55:31,683
I've also thought about that,

1112
01:55:31,683 --> 01:55:33,683
but at the same point,

1113
01:55:33,683 --> 01:55:35,683
what purpose does that pose?

1114
01:55:35,683 --> 01:55:37,683
I've thought like –

1115
01:55:37,683 --> 01:55:38,683
Sovereignty?

1116
01:55:38,683 --> 01:55:40,683
Sovereignty, but why between –

1117
01:55:40,683 --> 01:55:42,683
I mean the whole thing is that Drivechain

1118
01:55:42,683 --> 01:55:44,683
is the communication between them.

1119
01:55:44,683 --> 01:55:47,683
You just peg into the main chain.

1120
01:55:47,683 --> 01:55:49,683
How does value move from one to the other?

1121
01:55:49,683 --> 01:55:50,683
How are they linked together?

1122
01:55:50,683 --> 01:55:51,683
What if you have one –

1123
01:55:51,683 --> 01:55:52,683
Yeah.

1124
01:55:52,683 --> 01:55:54,683
You know, each of them has –

1125
01:55:54,683 --> 01:55:57,683
they'll have like an RPC server.

1126
01:55:57,683 --> 01:55:59,683
I don't know if that's literally what you're asking.

1127
01:55:59,683 --> 01:56:02,683
When they're on the coin –

1128
01:56:02,683 --> 01:56:03,683
I don't know.

1129
01:56:03,683 --> 01:56:04,683
I don't know, JK.

1130
01:56:04,683 --> 01:56:07,683
I mean, I think he's literally just like –

1131
01:56:07,683 --> 01:56:09,683
The idea is that you can move your coins

1132
01:56:09,683 --> 01:56:10,683
from one chain to the other,

1133
01:56:10,683 --> 01:56:12,683
and that's how you interact

1134
01:56:12,683 --> 01:56:13,683
and communicate between the chains.

1135
01:56:13,683 --> 01:56:16,683
Unless there's like some specific mechanism –

1136
01:56:16,683 --> 01:56:17,683
Oh, yeah.

1137
01:56:17,683 --> 01:56:18,683
Sure, I could come up with a few.

1138
01:56:18,683 --> 01:56:20,683
This is something that we've already seen

1139
01:56:20,683 --> 01:56:22,683
in the Cosmos ecosystem

1140
01:56:22,683 --> 01:56:24,683
where you're able to use a standard

1141
01:56:24,683 --> 01:56:26,683
rather than a just trust me bro bridge

1142
01:56:26,683 --> 01:56:27,683
between drivechains.

1143
01:56:27,683 --> 01:56:28,683
I don't know if that connected Drivechains

1144
01:56:28,683 --> 01:56:30,683
have the same limitations

1145
01:56:30,683 --> 01:56:33,683
that you would have for any other type of peg system.

1146
01:56:33,683 --> 01:56:35,683
Would they not be able to trustlessly speak

1147
01:56:35,683 --> 01:56:36,683
with each other?

1148
01:56:36,683 --> 01:56:37,683
Imagine that you had one

1149
01:56:37,683 --> 01:56:39,683
where you had a borrowing and lending market.

1150
01:56:39,683 --> 01:56:40,683
On the other one,

1151
01:56:40,683 --> 01:56:42,683
you had a perpetuals exchange.

1152
01:56:42,683 --> 01:56:44,683
Obviously, the two of those

1153
01:56:44,683 --> 01:56:45,683
are interlinked with one another

1154
01:56:45,683 --> 01:56:47,683
as borrowing and lending activity

1155
01:56:47,683 --> 01:56:50,683
is how those contracts are made.

1156
01:56:50,683 --> 01:56:53,683
I mean, I think the idea is that you just –

1157
01:56:53,683 --> 01:56:54,683
Sorry.

1158
01:56:54,683 --> 01:56:56,683
The idea, I think, is you just use an HTLC

1159
01:56:56,683 --> 01:56:58,683
to peg into the other thing

1160
01:56:58,683 --> 01:56:59,683
using an atomic swap.

1161
01:56:59,683 --> 01:57:00,683
That's kind of the idea

1162
01:57:00,683 --> 01:57:03,683
of how you talk between chains.

1163
01:57:03,683 --> 01:57:05,683
I mean, the idea –

1164
01:57:06,683 --> 01:57:08,683
If you borrowed to create a large position

1165
01:57:08,683 --> 01:57:10,683
on a borrowing and lending market

1166
01:57:10,683 --> 01:57:12,683
to place it on a perpetuals one after

1167
01:57:12,683 --> 01:57:14,683
and there's a federated committee

1168
01:57:14,683 --> 01:57:16,683
that doesn't want to let you clear your trade,

1169
01:57:16,683 --> 01:57:18,683
wouldn't that be an issue?

1170
01:57:18,683 --> 01:57:19,683
No.

1171
01:57:19,683 --> 01:57:20,683
None of this has –

1172
01:57:20,683 --> 01:57:21,683
It's all trustless.

1173
01:57:21,683 --> 01:57:23,683
You can use the pegging mechanism

1174
01:57:23,683 --> 01:57:24,683
for Drivechains to move your coins

1175
01:57:24,683 --> 01:57:28,683
if nobody else will take your atomic swap.

1176
01:57:29,683 --> 01:57:31,683
David's calculating.

1177
01:57:31,683 --> 01:57:32,683
I'll give him a second.

1178
01:57:32,683 --> 01:57:33,683
I'm not calculating.

1179
01:57:33,683 --> 01:57:34,683
I wanted to understand

1180
01:57:34,683 --> 01:57:35,683
how the chains talk.

1181
01:57:35,683 --> 01:57:37,683
I don't know what standards.

1182
01:57:37,683 --> 01:57:38,683
I actually –

1183
01:57:38,683 --> 01:57:39,683
If I could chime in,

1184
01:57:39,683 --> 01:57:41,683
I actually asked this question to Paul.

1185
01:57:41,683 --> 01:57:42,683
I have quite a few questions

1186
01:57:42,683 --> 01:57:44,683
related to this

1187
01:57:44,683 --> 01:57:45,683
on one of the previous spaces

1188
01:57:45,683 --> 01:57:49,683
where you have an L2,

1189
01:57:49,683 --> 01:57:52,683
a Drivechain on two different Layer 1s.

1190
01:57:52,683 --> 01:57:54,683
It's the same Drivechain

1191
01:57:54,683 --> 01:57:56,683
as the L2.

1192
01:57:56,683 --> 01:57:57,683
It's the same L1s.

1193
01:57:57,683 --> 01:57:59,683
It's the same Drivechain

1194
01:57:59,683 --> 01:58:02,683
like BitAssets or BitNames,

1195
01:58:02,683 --> 01:58:04,683
and they can migrate

1196
01:58:04,683 --> 01:58:08,683
because they're exactly the same.

1197
01:58:08,683 --> 01:58:10,683
Yeah, that –

1198
01:58:10,683 --> 01:58:12,683
Because you mean like you want to move –

1199
01:58:12,683 --> 01:58:14,683
Yeah, you can do one –

1200
01:58:14,683 --> 01:58:16,683
Like you could say –

1201
01:58:16,683 --> 01:58:19,683
You could take a snapshot of BitAssets

1202
01:58:19,683 --> 01:58:21,683
at a certain time

1203
01:58:21,683 --> 01:58:23,683
and then start it up again

1204
01:58:23,683 --> 01:58:25,683
on a different L1.

1205
01:58:25,683 --> 01:58:26,683
There are like a couple

1206
01:58:26,683 --> 01:58:27,683
of different things you could do.

1207
01:58:27,683 --> 01:58:28,683
They're all very, very different

1208
01:58:28,683 --> 01:58:29,683
from each other,

1209
01:58:29,683 --> 01:58:30,683
so it depends totally

1210
01:58:30,683 --> 01:58:32,683
on what people wanted to achieve,

1211
01:58:32,683 --> 01:58:36,683
and it might be complicated to follow.

1212
01:58:36,683 --> 01:58:38,683
But one thing that I'd like to emphasize

1213
01:58:38,683 --> 01:58:39,683
is that if you just work

1214
01:58:39,683 --> 01:58:41,683
on the L2 software,

1215
01:58:41,683 --> 01:58:42,683
which is like basically

1216
01:58:42,683 --> 01:58:43,683
what LayerTwo Labs does,

1217
01:58:43,683 --> 01:58:45,683
anyone who uses BIP300

1218
01:58:45,683 --> 01:58:47,683
can just take all of that

1219
01:58:47,683 --> 01:58:49,683
off the shelf,

1220
01:58:49,683 --> 01:58:52,683
the BIP300 301 activator,

1221
01:58:52,683 --> 01:58:57,683
privacy, L2, the scaling L2s,

1222
01:58:57,683 --> 01:59:00,683
BitAssets, et cetera, prediction markets.

1223
01:59:00,683 --> 01:59:01,683
You just take all that and plug it in.

1224
01:59:01,683 --> 01:59:04,683
It's like you have a USB port

1225
01:59:04,683 --> 01:59:05,683
on your computer,

1226
01:59:05,683 --> 01:59:07,683
and now you have a USB hub,

1227
01:59:07,683 --> 01:59:09,683
and you can plug –

1228
01:59:09,683 --> 01:59:12,683
And we're like building like the mouse

1229
01:59:12,683 --> 01:59:14,683
and the webcam and all that stuff.

1230
01:59:14,683 --> 01:59:15,683
So you could do that.

1231
01:59:15,683 --> 01:59:16,683
Now, with BitAssets,

1232
01:59:16,683 --> 01:59:18,683
there's all this other information,

1233
01:59:18,683 --> 01:59:20,683
and BitNames is similar.

1234
01:59:20,683 --> 01:59:21,683
There's like this other stuff

1235
01:59:21,683 --> 01:59:23,683
where people have issued like stuff

1236
01:59:23,683 --> 01:59:25,683
that's like ordinals or NFTs.

1237
01:59:25,683 --> 01:59:27,683
There's like a long history there.

1238
01:59:27,683 --> 01:59:29,683
You could like snapshot that,

1239
01:59:29,683 --> 01:59:31,683
and on one time,

1240
01:59:31,683 --> 01:59:35,683
you could start up an L2

1241
01:59:35,683 --> 01:59:36,683
on a different L1

1242
01:59:36,683 --> 01:59:40,683
that has the exact same L2 history.

1243
01:59:40,683 --> 01:59:43,683
It's basically hard fork BitAssets

1244
01:59:43,683 --> 01:59:47,683
onto the second different L1.

1245
01:59:47,683 --> 01:59:49,683
I don't know if anyone would ever want

1246
01:59:49,683 --> 01:59:53,683
to do an L2 that was on two different –

1247
01:59:53,683 --> 01:59:54,683
same L2,

1248
01:59:54,683 --> 01:59:58,683
but on two different L1s simultaneously.

1249
01:59:58,683 --> 02:00:00,683
I don't think that would ever be great

1250
02:00:00,683 --> 02:00:03,683
because the L1s might disagree on something,

1251
02:00:03,683 --> 02:00:05,683
and then it would be chaos.

1252
02:00:05,683 --> 02:00:06,683
So I don't think that would work.

1253
02:00:06,683 --> 02:00:07,683
Have you thought –

1254
02:00:07,683 --> 02:00:08,683
I'm sorry.

1255
02:00:08,683 --> 02:00:09,683
What were the reasons for using the L2

1256
02:00:09,683 --> 02:00:11,683
on the sidechain?

1257
02:00:12,168 --> 02:00:12,668
Roughly?

1258
02:00:16,648 --> 02:00:22,888
Well, for BitAssets, it's kind of like – the idea was that it would domesticate – that would be like

1259
02:00:22,888 --> 02:00:30,088
an L2 for all this stuff about like counterparty, colored coins, ordinals, NFTs, whatever. It would

1260
02:00:30,088 --> 02:00:36,168
all just be like fit in this like zoo, and so that one in particular, you would wonder about like, oh,

1261
02:00:36,328 --> 02:00:45,607
can we like move that state around or something? Or it could be more like Tether, where you have

1262
02:00:45,607 --> 02:00:55,368
USDT on Ethereum or on Tron or something. So then that would also work, but that'd be a slightly

1263
02:00:55,368 --> 02:01:01,127
different thing. You'd have an L1, L2 with BitAssets on eCash, then a different L2, BitAssets

1264
02:01:02,008 --> 02:01:09,127
on something else, some other L1, and they would each issue some whatever they would call USDT,

1265
02:01:09,688 --> 02:01:12,967
and then they would just live in separate worlds.

1266
02:01:12,967 --> 02:01:15,767
That makes sense. So yeah, I guess like in terms of – that's what I was originally,

1267
02:01:15,767 --> 02:01:21,608
I guess, wondering about what Dave was saying, is just like – I don't think that other coins are

1268
02:01:21,608 --> 02:01:27,288
really thinking about things in that way either, so I don't know. I was just wondering in general.

1269
02:01:31,127 --> 02:01:41,367
Well, if you had like a Namecoin compatibility or a cross-chain Namecoin, the idea was, yeah,

1270
02:01:41,367 --> 02:01:48,248
you could keep bring that across to the other Layer 1 chain and you still have your Namecoin

1271
02:01:48,248 --> 02:01:53,047
or what have you. Yeah, the issue is

1272
02:01:54,087 --> 02:01:59,928
BitAssets and BitNames, in particular BitNames. BitNames is supposed to be like this other

1273
02:01:59,928 --> 02:02:05,687
dimension of digital scarcity, so it's like you don't want anyone else to take the Justin name

1274
02:02:05,687 --> 02:02:11,047
or like Google.Bit or something. You don't want anyone else to have it, so you want to prevent

1275
02:02:11,047 --> 02:02:18,487
double spending, basically double registering of names, and the set matters, and it's kind of like

1276
02:02:18,487 --> 02:02:24,327
you want it to be totally up-to-date, and it's like having like duplication problems in your

1277
02:02:24,327 --> 02:02:35,607
spreadsheet or having to do all this data fixing. So that's a case where you only want there to be

1278
02:02:35,607 --> 02:02:44,327
one state at any given time, and so you would want it to be something where you could like

1279
02:02:45,448 --> 02:02:52,247
destroy an old version but port it into a new situation. Would there be a way of using like

1280
02:02:52,247 --> 02:02:58,967
Truthcoin in order to determine the true set of domain names?

1281
02:03:00,327 --> 02:03:06,407
Okay, well, so BitNames and Truthcoin are different, and I think the answer is yes,

1282
02:03:06,407 --> 02:03:12,088
even though the question is kind of complicated. But I think in the post I wrote, I wrote a post

1283
02:03:12,088 --> 02:03:18,728
about BitNames where I explained how we would take on ICANN and win because that's really hard,

1284
02:03:18,728 --> 02:03:25,368
but it's something you basically have to do if you're serious about your name project, and

1285
02:03:27,527 --> 02:03:29,848
it's not really about which one is right, but yeah, you could,

1286
02:03:30,487 --> 02:03:34,407
it's completely separately from that. You could use, I think prediction markets are really

1287
02:03:34,407 --> 02:03:42,407
underexplored in terms of like you could have stuff where it's like, okay, if we do this soft

1288
02:03:42,487 --> 02:03:48,487
fork or not, or if we do this hard fork or not, what would the price be? What would the exchange

1289
02:03:48,487 --> 02:03:53,448
rate be? So that you didn't get prediction markets on those things. That's like really,

1290
02:03:53,448 --> 02:03:58,247
really, really helpful. That's what I presented about it scaling one in September of 2015,

1291
02:03:59,127 --> 02:04:05,448
more than 10 years ago, but still no one, no one does it, and we sometimes do these fork futures,

1292
02:04:05,448 --> 02:04:10,327
which are very low quality, which no one has done. Hopefully, maybe they're a little better now,

1293
02:04:10,327 --> 02:04:16,568
but they don't even do like, you know, the better fork futures would be conditional,

1294
02:04:16,568 --> 02:04:21,208
and they would say like, if we did this hard fork, usually when people do fork futures now,

1295
02:04:21,208 --> 02:04:28,728
they say like, okay, what will the BIP-110 coin trade for? And it's kind of unclear exactly what

1296
02:04:28,728 --> 02:04:34,888
happens if like, what happens if BTC activates BIP-110, or what happens if there is no fork,

1297
02:04:34,888 --> 02:04:41,367
or what happens? So it's like, so even though I proposed back in 2015, exactly what to do,

1298
02:04:41,367 --> 02:04:46,328
that would be really, really fun and let people trade. And it would be very helpful for everyone.

1299
02:04:46,328 --> 02:04:50,087
And of course, we would all do whatever makes the price go up. Goes without saying.

1300
02:04:51,848 --> 02:04:55,927
I don't know if there is, like, I suppose this is what Truthcoin is designed to be,

1301
02:04:55,927 --> 02:05:01,848
but like using it as an oracle for BitNames, in order to resolve something like in a market that

1302
02:05:01,848 --> 02:05:07,687
says like, oh, is this the correct google.com domain IP address? And if it doesn't resolve to

1303
02:05:07,687 --> 02:05:11,687
the actual like Google service, you're going to know for sure. Most people are going to say not.

1304
02:05:12,328 --> 02:05:18,888
Yeah, you're going to mix a few things. The Truthcoin can be used for almost anything.

1305
02:05:19,527 --> 02:05:28,328
But it's very, it works best for high impact decisions that affect lots of people and are

1306
02:05:28,328 --> 02:05:34,087
controversial and easy to measure at the end. So something like, you know, what does the Fed

1307
02:05:34,087 --> 02:05:41,288
set? Will the Fed tighten rates? Or will we fire the CEO and replace them with someone else? Or

1308
02:05:41,288 --> 02:05:46,087
will we fire the ruling party? Will we fire the Democratic Party or fire the Republican Party and

1309
02:05:46,087 --> 02:05:50,967
replace them with the Democrat? These are really easy. And then like, what's the GDP? What's the

1310
02:05:50,967 --> 02:05:55,848
stock price? What's the, okay, what is the whatever, how much inflation is there? So those are

1311
02:05:55,848 --> 02:06:00,568
things that have a huge impact. They're very controversial upfront, they're very easy to

1312
02:06:00,568 --> 02:06:07,367
measure. After the fact, that is where Truthcoin works really, really well. The thing about the

1313
02:06:07,367 --> 02:06:13,448
Google domains, which the ICANN, or I call the ICANN names like google.com. I have this like,

1314
02:06:14,568 --> 02:06:22,807
this interesting idea where over time BitNames will be automatically synchronizing with like the

1315
02:06:22,807 --> 02:06:28,647
ICANN formatted names, but there will be a separate set of like sovereign names that are

1316
02:06:28,647 --> 02:06:33,608
not synchronized. And these would be like dot bit or like dot anarchy or something.

1317
02:06:34,568 --> 02:06:39,848
And these would be totally ruled by the key. And once you own it, on the blockchain, you like own

1318
02:06:39,848 --> 02:06:44,328
it forever. And it has all these like different properties. And so in that way, BitNames would

1319
02:06:44,328 --> 02:06:55,288
be like compatible with both. That's the how to take on ICANN and win part, because you have to

1320
02:06:55,288 --> 02:07:02,247
give people a property right. People who bought google.com, or eCash.com or bitcoin.com or

1321
02:07:02,247 --> 02:07:07,848
whatever. People have already like invested in that, that's the system we have. And we can't

1322
02:07:08,407 --> 02:07:15,048
screw that system up. And it's people, if we do, then all we're going to get is a bunch of angry

1323
02:07:15,048 --> 02:07:20,568
people who ignore the project. So that would be no good. We have to somehow make sure we protect

1324
02:07:20,568 --> 02:07:28,967
all the existing property rights to the names, while also adding on this, this feature, you know,

1325
02:07:28,967 --> 02:07:34,728
and the features are really, really good. Like I think, I think people are actually hungry for

1326
02:07:35,288 --> 02:07:41,687
a sovereign name situation. For starters, it always gets invented. Like it's being invented on

1327
02:07:41,687 --> 02:07:48,488
like, you know, Ethereum did the Ethereum name system. And even on Bitcoin SV, there was like a

1328
02:07:48,488 --> 02:07:54,488
name, cash tag or something. So it keeps getting invented independently. And even with lightning,

1329
02:07:54,488 --> 02:08:00,008
it's like, it only works if you have a, it's kind of a long story. I don't want to get into it. But

1330
02:08:00,008 --> 02:08:07,288
yeah, or a handshake. Exactly. Right. So it keeps getting independently invented.

1331
02:08:08,168 --> 02:08:12,407
A handshake. And then there was a, I can't remember. There was like another one that was

1332
02:08:12,407 --> 02:08:19,927
really big in like 2019. DNS. But whatever. Yeah, that was just DNS I think. Does anybody

1333
02:08:19,927 --> 02:08:26,328
want to buy slutwife.btc? Get out of here dude. Do you think that basically you could incentivize

1334
02:08:26,647 --> 02:08:33,848
like participating in some of those like less designed for Truthcoin type markets by having

1335
02:08:33,848 --> 02:08:39,927
like a sidechain, like subsidize it in some way? Is that like a? Well, for all the markets

1336
02:08:39,927 --> 02:08:47,688
in Truthcoin, they are designed to accept the subsidy. So they have the automated market maker.

1337
02:08:48,647 --> 02:08:55,848
And that, I think that's crucial because the, in particular prediction markets have like a kind of

1338
02:08:55,848 --> 02:09:02,567
a big adverse selection. The prediction market invites people who have more information to

1339
02:09:02,567 --> 02:09:07,048
trade. So when you trade, you always have to be thinking, Hey, do I have like, do I have like

1340
02:09:07,048 --> 02:09:11,848
near the most information? Because otherwise it shouldn't trade. It's very bad for liquidity.

1341
02:09:11,848 --> 02:09:19,767
It's very bad for liquidity. So these are programmed to benefit from trading, trading activity.

1342
02:09:21,368 --> 02:09:25,207
It's kind of similar to pump that fun is to a little extent that I understand the pump that

1343
02:09:25,207 --> 02:09:31,207
fun, but it's like you, you can collect if you make a market that people enjoy trading in.

1344
02:09:32,967 --> 02:09:38,248
But you have to front the liquidity to, to create this thing. So is that the log?

1345
02:09:39,207 --> 02:09:43,207
By the names. Oh yeah. So I was wondering, is that the logarithmic scoring rule or something

1346
02:09:43,207 --> 02:09:48,808
like that? It is. Yeah. It's a logarithmic scoring rule has many advantageous properties,

1347
02:09:49,608 --> 02:09:57,688
such as having very high liquidity at the edges. And, but also where when you combine

1348
02:09:57,688 --> 02:10:04,407
multiple events, such as if we, if we fire the CEO, will the stock price go up? People can trade

1349
02:10:04,488 --> 02:10:10,168
on the device. When people trade independent on each event independently, they don't get charged

1350
02:10:10,967 --> 02:10:15,608
extra or less or something. They just get charged the exact same amount as if someone had only made

1351
02:10:15,608 --> 02:10:21,368
a market on the CEO being fired or only made a market on the corporation stock price. So you

1352
02:10:21,368 --> 02:10:26,488
can do all kinds of combinations without it interfering. It's just as one of its many

1353
02:10:27,447 --> 02:10:31,288
beneficial properties. It's a good place to like look into that in particular. Do you know

1354
02:10:32,087 --> 02:10:37,848
the logarithmic market scoring rule? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The only, there's only one place in the

1355
02:10:37,848 --> 02:10:45,848
whole internet. No, I'm not sure, but okay. When I learned it, I found one webpage and it wasn't

1356
02:10:45,848 --> 02:10:50,248
good, but it was because of Robin Hanson. I love Robin Hanson. It's one of my favorite people in

1357
02:10:50,248 --> 02:10:55,288
the whole world. He came up, he, he invented like a lot of this stuff. And a lot of the stuff was,

1358
02:10:55,848 --> 02:11:02,407
I was just like adapting it for blockchain, which was still pretty insightful, but still,

1359
02:11:02,407 --> 02:11:05,688
you know, Robin Hanson invented all this stuff. He has this paper, a 2002 paper,

1360
02:11:06,488 --> 02:11:11,848
something like that. It's like ancient, you know, that's not that ancient, but the point is

1361
02:11:12,728 --> 02:11:18,087
long story short, I made this spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel. It's on bitcoinhivemind.com

1362
02:11:18,087 --> 02:11:22,327
and you can find it. And as far as I'm concerned, this is the only way anyone has a chance,

1363
02:11:22,327 --> 02:11:28,488
a snowball's chance in hell, because I had to learn it. And I, I took like so long to even

1364
02:11:28,488 --> 02:11:32,967
figure out what on earth Robin Hanson was even talking about. And so I made the spreadsheet

1365
02:11:33,608 --> 02:11:38,728
to learn it myself. And of course it's very hard to follow a spreadsheet because it's like

1366
02:11:38,728 --> 02:11:43,207
all code, but there's no comments and stuff, but I worked really hard to add like arrows and

1367
02:11:43,207 --> 02:11:48,407
explanations and things. So if you download this spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel, it's by far the

1368
02:11:48,407 --> 02:11:54,887
best way, by far a million, maybe new stuff is because the spreadsheets from like 2015 or

1369
02:11:54,887 --> 02:11:59,767
something. And I update it from time to time. I add a new tab. There's like a million tabs,

1370
02:11:59,767 --> 02:12:04,967
but I couldn't believe how hard it was to learn. I was like, this is so confusing. And I was like,

1371
02:12:04,967 --> 02:12:09,848
well, how, and I was like, what is he even talking about? And I was just baffled the whole time.

1372
02:12:09,848 --> 02:12:15,527
Why is it logarithmic and not spherical? I had like no idea what was going on and I made my

1373
02:12:15,608 --> 02:12:20,248
eat. And so you can check it out. Absolutely. So it's a truth or which, which where's the

1374
02:12:20,248 --> 02:12:25,447
spreadsheet? If you go to Truthcoin.info, or if you go to Truthcoin.com, it will redirect you to

1375
02:12:25,447 --> 02:12:29,688
Truthcoin.info. And then on the right, there's like a sidebar, or if you're on mobile at the

1376
02:12:29,688 --> 02:12:34,007
bottom, it links to my other sites I'll link together. Although I guess I haven't added

1377
02:12:34,007 --> 02:12:41,688
eCash.com, which I suppose I should get on that. But if bitcoinhivemind.com that's, that was

1378
02:12:41,688 --> 02:12:46,168
originally where the prediction market site, then I renamed and moved a bunch of stuff around,

1379
02:12:46,808 --> 02:12:51,207
which you should never do. Just, just PSA to anyone out there who's thinking, you just

1380
02:12:51,207 --> 02:12:54,967
think really hard about the name once and then never change it. That's my advice to everyone.

1381
02:12:55,928 --> 02:13:02,087
I was listening. Who cares? But yeah, if you go to bitcoinhivemind.com, that's like the prediction

1382
02:13:02,087 --> 02:13:07,207
market project. But then when it became an L2, and when it went back to being a Drivechain L2,

1383
02:13:07,207 --> 02:13:12,327
it got like re-renamed Truthcoin DC, Truthcoin drivechain. So that's,

1384
02:13:12,967 --> 02:13:18,808
but that's, that was my mistake. I learned the hard way. Just commit to the name and never back down.

1385
02:13:22,407 --> 02:13:27,048
Appreciate it. No one, no one wants a name. Do you think there's going to be like an

1386
02:13:27,048 --> 02:13:29,928
oracle Drivechain that's going to be able to connect to like EVM?

1387
02:13:31,688 --> 02:13:36,248
Yeah, the oracle thing is what Truthcoin DC is. It's like connect to everything though. It doesn't

1388
02:13:36,248 --> 02:13:46,327
have to be UTXO. Okay, cool. Yes. But again, it only has a limited scope, but it has a limited

1389
02:13:46,327 --> 02:13:51,767
scope to like the coolest stuff. So it's like, should we fire the ruling party? It gives you

1390
02:13:51,767 --> 02:13:56,728
basics of what Chainlink can do now. Okay. Yes. That's right. I mean, like people will always be

1391
02:13:56,728 --> 02:14:00,967
able to iterate on top of that. When people finally wrap their heads around it, I think they will.

1392
02:14:00,967 --> 02:14:04,007
Yeah. Cause that'll be, I think that'll be huge. Cause I think the number one problem,

1393
02:14:04,007 --> 02:14:09,207
all these proof of work tokens, coins, I guess, have faced over the last couple of years is every

1394
02:14:09,207 --> 02:14:14,728
time you do this, you're like reliant on exchanges, reliant on, on bridges. And if you don't play the

1395
02:14:14,728 --> 02:14:19,048
fraud game in this space, you end up on a little Island in the middle of the ocean by yourself,

1396
02:14:19,048 --> 02:14:23,928
just trading within your small community. And it takes dollars, lots of dollars to like fix

1397
02:14:23,928 --> 02:14:28,087
that problem and build those bridges. Right. So like if you had a system, like a Drivechain day

1398
02:14:28,087 --> 02:14:32,728
one or not day one, but as soon as you could, that was like sorting to peg and bring things

1399
02:14:32,728 --> 02:14:36,567
in from other chains and allow people to wrap stuff. I think that's going to be the thing that

1400
02:14:37,128 --> 02:14:39,527
makes you not reliant on like a Binance for example, or, you know,

1401
02:14:42,327 --> 02:14:43,368
Right. I agree.

1402
02:14:48,647 --> 02:14:52,407
What would a bridge look like from Ethereum into eCash world?

1403
02:14:56,327 --> 02:15:01,447
Well, I, you know, I'm not that interested in that, but you know, you could have like,

1404
02:15:01,447 --> 02:15:06,887
they have wrapped BTC. You could have like wrapped ETH on, but you know, there's another

1405
02:15:06,887 --> 02:15:14,168
thing is that we, I mentioned earlier, we had the ETH side, which was basically gas, but just as a

1406
02:15:14,168 --> 02:15:21,688
L2 drivechain. And we made that in 2023, but I kind of lost interest in it because I just,

1407
02:15:22,327 --> 02:15:25,048
I'm not interested in that kind of thing. Yeah. I think the,

1408
02:15:26,007 --> 02:15:31,207
the logarithmic market scoring rule. Yeah. No, but I think I'm looking, I'm looking at the

1409
02:15:31,207 --> 02:15:35,767
equation. It's just the log transformation to give you probability instead of price.

1410
02:15:35,767 --> 02:15:41,128
Yeah. It's pretty awful. The important thing is the account balance is easy to understand the,

1411
02:15:41,128 --> 02:15:45,767
and then you see why the account balance has to go up as people buy shares and has to go down

1412
02:15:45,767 --> 02:15:49,527
when people sell shares. And then the prices are like the derivative, the partial derivative,

1413
02:15:50,407 --> 02:15:56,327
if you know calculus. So that's why they're so, the prices are horrendous, but then you can kind

1414
02:15:56,327 --> 02:16:04,567
of see how the shares go in, the new account balance comes out, and then it's just subtraction

1415
02:16:05,288 --> 02:16:12,087
and a partial derivative. So that's the whole thing actually. So if you could wrap your head

1416
02:16:12,087 --> 02:16:17,608
around that, then you've got it, but it's really hard. It's so weird. And there's this liquidity

1417
02:16:17,608 --> 02:16:25,447
parameter, so. Yeah, that is, but that is just, that's not that important. That's just this thing

1418
02:16:25,447 --> 02:16:31,447
that basically scales the whole thing from dimes to dollars, basically. So that's not important.

1419
02:16:31,447 --> 02:16:35,288
Like traditionally, it's like the B replaced K, basically.

1420
02:16:37,128 --> 02:16:42,087
It's kind of, and it's not quite like a free parameter, but the idea is you have to pay the

1421
02:16:42,087 --> 02:16:49,767
initial liquidity when all the shares are zero is B log N. So that's how much you have to

1422
02:16:49,767 --> 02:16:56,168
sacrifice up front as the, you know, people just asked about that earlier, about the

1423
02:16:57,207 --> 02:17:03,288
subsidy. And so that's, so the subsidy goes up when B goes up, but then it's also the market

1424
02:17:03,288 --> 02:17:10,887
is more liquid. It takes more money to push the price around when B is high.

1425
02:17:12,887 --> 02:17:15,927
Okay. Yes. DJ.

1426
02:17:15,927 --> 02:17:18,327
I'm changing the subject. I'm raising my hand like a polite adult.

1427
02:17:18,327 --> 02:17:19,047
Okay.

1428
02:17:19,047 --> 02:17:24,008
So if your goal is like a user is in this kind of subject matter today, then like, I guess the

1429
02:17:24,008 --> 02:17:27,207
question that comes to mind is, are you going to have, we kind of talked about this a couple weeks

1430
02:17:27,207 --> 02:17:31,608
ago, but are you going to have ordinal aware wallets early on? Because that'll bring a bunch

1431
02:17:31,608 --> 02:17:37,047
of people. If you can also be sort of like, A, you're giving Bitcoiners Bitcoin, but now you're

1432
02:17:37,047 --> 02:17:41,848
telling people like, Hey, all of your duplicate, you know, ordinal tokens and ordinal assets,

1433
02:17:42,648 --> 02:17:47,047
things can just be ported over here. If you want to, here's a aware wallet. So you don't

1434
02:17:47,047 --> 02:17:49,768
burn all your shit while you're trying to get your coin split.

1435
02:17:49,768 --> 02:17:52,728
Is that going to be a thing or no, are you just going to kind of let someone else deal with that?

1436
02:17:55,287 --> 02:18:01,368
Well, maybe yes and no. I think if you point the ordinal software, because remember the L1,

1437
02:18:01,927 --> 02:18:09,368
the eCash L1, it basically is Bitcoin Core. So if you just tweak the ordinal aware software and

1438
02:18:09,528 --> 02:18:11,687
point it at eCash, all the ordinals will show up.

1439
02:18:11,687 --> 02:18:16,327
On your end, the QT wallet would automatically burn ordinals without knowing what they are,

1440
02:18:16,327 --> 02:18:18,728
because they're not on the chain. So the chain doesn't see them.

1441
02:18:19,447 --> 02:18:23,128
Yeah, we don't have a QT. I know what you mean though. The original was QT.

1442
02:18:23,128 --> 02:18:27,287
Maybe like approaching experts or something to integrate would be a way to do it, you know?

1443
02:18:27,287 --> 02:18:28,648
Like ordinals people use experts.

1444
02:18:31,768 --> 02:18:34,567
Yeah, I think, and we could put it in, because like I was trying to say,

1445
02:18:34,567 --> 02:18:38,728
Bitwindow is supposed to be more of the move fast, break things. It's just supposed to

1446
02:18:38,728 --> 02:18:43,927
accumulate a bunch of weird stuff. So we could put it in Bitwindow and then it would be fine.

1447
02:18:43,927 --> 02:18:52,648
The wallet is the BDK wallet, which is like a famous Bitcoin wallet that powers a lot of things.

1448
02:18:52,648 --> 02:18:56,408
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they could add an ordinals aware situation. It's just that,

1449
02:18:56,408 --> 02:19:01,927
like if it's like a QT wallet, probably not, right? But if it's like a normal fucking like

1450
02:19:02,567 --> 02:19:07,207
edge wallet or something, like those are, they're not going to care. But if you get like an ordinals

1451
02:19:07,207 --> 02:19:12,087
aware wallet from day one, then you're onboarding people with zero Bitcoin that have a bunch of art,

1452
02:19:12,087 --> 02:19:16,327
you know? Like they're going to still use the chain, I think, and not have, like, I don't know,

1453
02:19:16,327 --> 02:19:20,488
but it feels just kind of like a waste not worrying about like those people. Because if we think,

1454
02:19:20,488 --> 02:19:26,167
oh, you're going to get 10,000, 20,000, 100,000 users just from giving them duplicate Bitcoin,

1455
02:19:26,167 --> 02:19:29,368
then like you probably get more users from ordinals, because like ordinals are making

1456
02:19:29,368 --> 02:19:34,087
out 50 plus percent of every transaction right now, even now when it's dead. So it's like,

1457
02:19:34,807 --> 02:19:38,648
where are the users really? Yeah, but I think that's the low part. I agree with you,

1458
02:19:38,648 --> 02:19:43,128
but I think it's just because BTC has decided that it doesn't want any users of any kind.

1459
02:19:43,687 --> 02:19:52,248
We're like currently, we're like killing all the users. So we're user hostile. You need a

1460
02:19:52,248 --> 02:19:56,167
thing called a lifeboat, you know? That'll go ahead. Exactly, yes.

1461
02:19:56,648 --> 02:20:05,128
And so more, the question is, like, why does Ethereum have so much higher transaction fees?

1462
02:20:05,128 --> 02:20:09,128
And why, but a lot of that is like stable coins.

1463
02:20:11,540 --> 02:20:13,380
But, yeah, I think it's bizarre.

1464
02:20:13,380 --> 02:20:16,780
I think we're hostile to users, we're hostile to innovation.

1465
02:20:17,380 --> 02:20:22,540
So that's the. That's a mistake.

1466
02:20:22,580 --> 02:20:27,259
And I don't know what will happen if we could just if we could just fix

1467
02:20:27,259 --> 02:20:32,179
that part of the culture where we're not hostile to users.

1468
02:20:34,499 --> 02:20:37,300
Then who knows how many other things would go right after that?

1469
02:20:38,179 --> 02:20:40,339
Hopefully, at least a few.

1470
02:20:47,620 --> 02:20:50,740
Yeah, I guess like in terms of I don't know if there are any current

1471
02:20:52,139 --> 02:20:57,100
chains that have like, I guess, scripting built in intently to like the project,

1472
02:20:57,100 --> 02:21:02,060
but that's why I was looking at adding like an elements or like a simplicity

1473
02:21:02,459 --> 02:21:04,620
sidechain, like just copying the Blockstream on

1474
02:21:05,060 --> 02:21:07,780
and adding new tree XO and stuff like that.

1475
02:21:07,780 --> 02:21:14,980
So. Yeah, I'm actually hoping that people will, of course, everyone hopes that

1476
02:21:14,980 --> 02:21:18,099
a bunch of developers will come and make a bunch of stuff, but I think some things

1477
02:21:18,099 --> 02:21:23,779
that are realistic are someone adds a we used to have something that we call

1478
02:21:23,779 --> 02:21:26,980
Bitcoin Core Plus or Bitcoin Core Extended or something.

1479
02:21:26,980 --> 02:21:31,499
I don't remember exactly what it's called, but this was like a fork of older

1480
02:21:31,499 --> 02:21:34,900
version of Bitcoin, but it had like CTV in it and it had like a cat.

1481
02:21:35,940 --> 02:21:40,980
And we could bring that back, or I'm sure I think that's the type of thing

1482
02:21:40,980 --> 02:21:44,379
that a bright Bitcoin hack like Jeremy Rubin, who's like super, super smart,

1483
02:21:44,860 --> 02:21:48,059
you know, they could make something like that, like by just looking at,

1484
02:21:48,700 --> 02:21:52,179
you know, the lay of the land, that would be a much better use of their time

1485
02:21:52,459 --> 02:21:55,620
than campaigning for CTV, which is, of course, never going to happen

1486
02:21:55,620 --> 02:21:57,660
just because Bitcoin culture is so screwed up.

1487
02:21:58,220 --> 02:22:01,379
So instead of completely wasting their time, you would have these

1488
02:22:01,379 --> 02:22:05,700
people like the big VM people, the all the people who love to hack on Bitcoin

1489
02:22:05,700 --> 02:22:11,860
script. These all these, I would imagine that those people would

1490
02:22:12,499 --> 02:22:17,099
they would have like just an L2, forget L1, they'll say here's our L2

1491
02:22:17,099 --> 02:22:20,780
is exactly the same as this L2 is exactly the same as Bitcoin Core, but it has

1492
02:22:20,780 --> 02:22:25,379
OP_CAT and it has OP_CTV and it has this long list of other stuff, you know, from

1493
02:22:25,379 --> 02:22:27,140
everyone. Have you guys heard of Alkanes yet?

1494
02:22:27,179 --> 02:22:29,299
Have you seen that thing? It's like on the ordinal side.

1495
02:22:29,299 --> 02:22:30,819
What's it called? Alkanes.

1496
02:22:31,780 --> 02:22:36,739
Alkanes. Basically, it's a WebAssembly code stored on an indexer.

1497
02:22:36,819 --> 02:22:41,459
And then the DeFi side of it is like if they're trying to be as L1 as they can

1498
02:22:41,459 --> 02:22:43,219
on Bitcoin, all things considered.

1499
02:22:43,459 --> 02:22:44,900
So they still have to use the indexer.

1500
02:22:44,900 --> 02:22:47,420
They still have to use it's sort of like an indexer sidechain, but it's not even

1501
02:22:47,420 --> 02:22:48,819
a chain. It's just like a fucking indexer.

1502
02:22:48,819 --> 02:22:52,980
Right. But basically, like it's WebAssembly code where you have approved,

1503
02:22:53,700 --> 02:22:56,659
like basically cloned versions of ETH contracts.

1504
02:22:56,659 --> 02:23:00,099
But you can prove how the WebAssembly code is allowed to be used.

1505
02:23:00,420 --> 02:23:03,860
And so maybe something like that could be a more on-chain, you know, because it

1506
02:23:03,860 --> 02:23:06,260
seems to be working. We have on-chain LPs on Bitcoin now.

1507
02:23:06,260 --> 02:23:08,459
I mean, on-chain as much as an indexers involved is.

1508
02:23:08,780 --> 02:23:12,299
But like it's pretty it's pretty close to I think where it can get on Bitcoin

1509
02:23:12,299 --> 02:23:16,620
side. So if you put something like that onto a more scalable thing like, you know,

1510
02:23:16,620 --> 02:23:20,260
a Drivechain or even just the L1 or fucking I think something like that would

1511
02:23:20,260 --> 02:23:24,179
be. I assume that that's using like Citria or something like that.

1512
02:23:24,459 --> 02:23:25,780
No, I don't think so, actually.

1513
02:23:25,780 --> 02:23:29,900
I think they just have built their whole stack from the bottom up, like everything

1514
02:23:29,900 --> 02:23:31,420
indexer software, all of it.

1515
02:23:31,420 --> 02:23:34,459
Like they don't rely on anybody else's shit except for the stuff they built.

1516
02:23:34,620 --> 02:23:35,860
Subfrost is the company.

1517
02:23:36,060 --> 02:23:39,579
They have a thing called Rebar, which is like how to manage the pools and like

1518
02:23:39,579 --> 02:23:41,659
backend and stuff. It's I don't know, it's it's everything.

1519
02:23:41,659 --> 02:23:45,260
Like I would look into it if you're if you're going down that route of how do we

1520
02:23:45,260 --> 02:23:48,219
do smart contracts better on L1, you know.

1521
02:23:51,099 --> 02:23:56,659
OK, let's Marcus is being brought up as a speaker, so hello.

1522
02:23:57,620 --> 02:24:03,019
Pretty late here, but one thing I was thinking is you mentioned stable coins,

1523
02:24:03,019 --> 02:24:09,379
right? But from what I've from what I know about Thunder, it

1524
02:24:09,379 --> 02:24:11,500
will only use eCash, right?

1525
02:24:11,540 --> 02:24:15,700
It cannot support other assets and you have this BitAssets for that.

1526
02:24:16,060 --> 02:24:20,819
But then wouldn't it be better for the Thunder, you know, other chains to be

1527
02:24:20,819 --> 02:24:25,939
multi-assets so they can support those kinds of because we know a large part of

1528
02:24:25,939 --> 02:24:30,059
fee revenue today on other chains comes from altcoins, right?

1529
02:24:30,980 --> 02:24:32,339
Well, from stable coins, I mean.

1530
02:24:34,499 --> 02:24:38,619
Yes, I've gotten this question before and it's a very good question and the answer

1531
02:24:38,619 --> 02:24:43,619
that I give, which I believe is that I don't know if there will be if the best

1532
02:24:43,619 --> 02:24:46,899
thing is for there to be topic specific chains.

1533
02:24:47,980 --> 02:24:51,059
And this would be like a BitAssets chain, a BitNames chain, et cetera.

1534
02:24:51,140 --> 02:24:55,099
I don't know if that's the best lay of the land, like a privacy chain, or if

1535
02:24:55,099 --> 02:24:59,980
instead it will be more like here is the small blockchain, like here's the

1536
02:24:59,980 --> 02:25:02,899
Ethereum, here's the Solana, here's like the base or something like that.

1537
02:25:03,379 --> 02:25:05,460
So I don't know if.

1538
02:25:07,420 --> 02:25:11,580
But I think a clue as to where the sidechains will appear is like where there's

1539
02:25:11,580 --> 02:25:13,779
large disagreements among people.

1540
02:25:13,819 --> 02:25:16,700
So like some people wanted small blocks, some people wanted large blocks.

1541
02:25:17,099 --> 02:25:19,540
So probably that would be like a stable split.

1542
02:25:20,059 --> 02:25:25,499
And then some people really want privacy by default, privacy, layer one, whatever.

1543
02:25:25,499 --> 02:25:26,300
Other people don't.

1544
02:25:26,819 --> 02:25:32,300
And there was even a Zcash bug like today or yesterday or something, which

1545
02:25:32,339 --> 02:25:34,180
highlights the trade off for that.

1546
02:25:34,180 --> 02:25:39,580
So I don't know how it will be chopped up and it's completely possible that the

1547
02:25:39,580 --> 02:25:44,860
Thunder chain or just the large blockchain, that one will do a lot of stuff like

1548
02:25:44,860 --> 02:25:47,180
extra stuff like assets and privacy.

1549
02:25:47,860 --> 02:25:53,099
Uh, so my answer is that I don't know how, how it will be chopped up, but doing

1550
02:25:53,099 --> 02:25:59,020
the sidechains by topic does have a lot of advantages for like how hard the

1551
02:25:59,020 --> 02:26:01,899
machine has to work and like, you can have like, you know, the node, it can

1552
02:26:01,899 --> 02:26:07,140
have like some kind of state, like it can very easily list, you know, all the

1553
02:26:07,140 --> 02:26:11,300
assets and make special stuff where you want to auction an asset or something.

1554
02:26:12,219 --> 02:26:16,700
So I don't know how it will all fall out completely.

1555
02:26:16,740 --> 02:26:20,180
A third possibility is that at the end of the day, there will just be like a

1556
02:26:20,180 --> 02:26:22,939
kind of liberal chain and like a concern.

1557
02:26:22,939 --> 02:26:27,260
I guess this is kind of like the Ethereum Solana, uh, split.

1558
02:26:28,819 --> 02:26:31,700
Uh, whereas people keep pushing the envelope and they'll say, okay, here's

1559
02:26:31,700 --> 02:26:36,059
a, here's an even weirder L2 and then here's, that's not weird enough.

1560
02:26:36,099 --> 02:26:39,420
Here's an yet another, even more strange.

1561
02:26:40,180 --> 02:26:41,700
So it's a good question.

1562
02:26:41,860 --> 02:26:45,580
It's particularly like, where will the assets, are they better done just like

1563
02:26:45,580 --> 02:26:50,779
on thunder as a kind of like counterparty on thunder or like whatever colored coins

1564
02:26:50,779 --> 02:26:54,619
on thunder, that type of thing, or should they be in their own chain?

1565
02:26:55,140 --> 02:27:00,580
Uh, I don't know, but we have both options, but it's a good question.

1566
02:27:00,659 --> 02:27:03,860
I have, I honestly, and I'm not even sure how we would know.

1567
02:27:04,460 --> 02:27:08,980
The only thing I got for you is this rule of thumb about when lots of people

1568
02:27:08,980 --> 02:27:15,180
disagree, probably that is a stable split partition, you know, into the

1569
02:27:15,180 --> 02:27:17,499
different L2s, but I have no idea.

1570
02:27:17,540 --> 02:27:19,740
Yeah, I could, it could shake out anyway.

1571
02:27:20,219 --> 02:27:20,740
I don't know.

1572
02:27:22,499 --> 02:27:22,619
Yeah.

1573
02:27:22,619 --> 02:27:27,619
Well, uh, I, myself, um, was, I think you saw it on, on Telegram, right?

1574
02:27:28,020 --> 02:27:31,740
I was thinking about making elements that, you know, the, the thing

1575
02:27:31,740 --> 02:27:33,939
liquid uses, uh, a drivechain.

1576
02:27:34,339 --> 02:27:38,020
And, uh, maybe the plates, if it, if that's possible, I don't know.

1577
02:27:38,700 --> 02:27:43,700
Um, but then that, that was the thing I was thinking.

1578
02:27:43,819 --> 02:27:49,939
Cause like, um, let's, let's keep, uh, the, the topic of stable coins and

1579
02:27:49,939 --> 02:27:53,580
stable coins, there's a lot of different use cases, uh, that they're used for.

1580
02:27:53,939 --> 02:27:57,420
So for one, they're used for payments, but they're also used for smart

1581
02:27:57,420 --> 02:27:58,580
contracts, DeFi kind of stuff.

1582
02:27:58,980 --> 02:28:06,140
So like, it would be interesting if, um, you want this liquidity to be shared and

1583
02:28:06,180 --> 02:28:06,700
all that, right.

1584
02:28:07,140 --> 02:28:09,740
But also Thunder is made for payments, right?

1585
02:28:10,099 --> 02:28:14,580
So that's why I think it would make sense to have a Thunder that supports that.

1586
02:28:15,219 --> 02:28:19,140
I'm basically rambling here because I know this is huge demand, right?

1587
02:28:19,379 --> 02:28:22,540
So, and what do we want is fees, especially in the beginning.

1588
02:28:22,540 --> 02:28:24,020
So the, the chain doesn't die off, right?

1589
02:28:24,499 --> 02:28:26,180
Um, so, so it is secure.

1590
02:28:26,659 --> 02:28:30,300
And I think one of the ways we could get a lot of fees is from stable

1591
02:28:30,300 --> 02:28:33,700
connectivity, be it's a stable coin payments or stable coin DeFi.

1592
02:28:34,700 --> 02:28:35,300
So I don't know.

1593
02:28:35,740 --> 02:28:36,140
That's funny.

1594
02:28:40,059 --> 02:28:40,939
Um, I, I agree.

1595
02:28:40,939 --> 02:28:42,379
No, stable coins are great.

1596
02:28:42,420 --> 02:28:47,620
And it's most of the stable coin activity is on, is on Ethereum and

1597
02:28:47,620 --> 02:28:51,579
Tron and not on BTC, even though this was originally a BTC project.

1598
02:28:51,579 --> 02:28:54,820
So perfectly fits the idea that everyone in BTC is over here

1599
02:28:54,820 --> 02:28:57,699
inventing all this useful stuff.

1600
02:28:59,579 --> 02:29:03,659
And then we just like, we just hand it, we just hand it over to these other

1601
02:29:03,659 --> 02:29:05,219
people in Ethereum.

1602
02:29:05,219 --> 02:29:07,620
And then we say in the community, in the BTC community, we say,

1603
02:29:07,620 --> 02:29:09,019
Oh, we never wanted that anyway.

1604
02:29:10,019 --> 02:29:13,420
Uh, I think those are just facade agents for real.

1605
02:29:13,420 --> 02:29:13,899
Let's be real.

1606
02:29:13,899 --> 02:29:14,180
Come on.

1607
02:29:14,180 --> 02:29:15,740
Everybody wants Bitcoin to be better.

1608
02:29:15,740 --> 02:29:20,060
If they care about people that are brain dead, think that they Bitcoin's

1609
02:29:20,099 --> 02:29:20,779
Oh, software.

1610
02:29:20,820 --> 02:29:21,380
Oh yeah.

1611
02:29:21,380 --> 02:29:22,500
That's the perfect software.

1612
02:29:22,500 --> 02:29:24,940
And it's, it's never going to need any adjustments because it's

1613
02:29:24,940 --> 02:29:26,180
just the perfect software, bro.

1614
02:29:26,180 --> 02:29:32,540
Like that's kind of true, but the, uh, I guess I looked up that one project

1615
02:29:32,540 --> 02:29:35,300
you were talking about and it's just like a large federation the way they're

1616
02:29:35,300 --> 02:29:39,019
doing it, but anyway, uh, if you are serious, Marcus Lowe, about doing the,

1617
02:29:39,019 --> 02:29:43,380
uh, liquid thing, I'm also kind of working on that, adding elements.

1618
02:29:43,540 --> 02:29:43,940
Um,

1619
02:29:46,579 --> 02:29:47,339
let's talk to them.

1620
02:29:47,980 --> 02:29:49,779
Yeah, you guys should.

1621
02:29:51,099 --> 02:29:54,899
Um, the element stuff, like, okay.

1622
02:29:54,899 --> 02:29:57,339
The, I remember it has like tree signatures.

1623
02:29:57,339 --> 02:29:57,659
Yeah.

1624
02:29:57,740 --> 02:29:59,300
Elements has a bunch of stuff.

1625
02:29:59,300 --> 02:30:01,740
Actually it does have confidential transactions.

1626
02:30:02,019 --> 02:30:03,060
It has assets.

1627
02:30:03,420 --> 02:30:05,579
It has, uh, op cats and op.

1628
02:30:05,659 --> 02:30:10,019
I think it has, um, some introspection stuff, other covenant stuff.

1629
02:30:10,259 --> 02:30:11,699
They have a bunch of cool stuff, you know?

1630
02:30:12,300 --> 02:30:19,380
Um, and it's, uh, yeah, I, I'm not sure that they have CTV, but I know they have

1631
02:30:19,380 --> 02:30:19,820
op cats.

1632
02:30:20,099 --> 02:30:23,060
My guess is that they don't, I have no idea at all, but my guess is, cause you

1633
02:30:23,060 --> 02:30:28,019
know, they have a little bit of a not invented here syndrome, so I guess they

1634
02:30:28,019 --> 02:30:30,980
don't have it, but maybe they have something else.

1635
02:30:31,579 --> 02:30:33,060
You know, you could probably add it.

1636
02:30:33,540 --> 02:30:37,139
I think there would definitely be a huge market for like a Bitcoin Core plus.

1637
02:30:37,180 --> 02:30:37,339
Yeah.

1638
02:30:37,339 --> 02:30:37,579
Yeah.

1639
02:30:37,579 --> 02:30:38,540
And I think if you didn't,

1640
02:30:40,420 --> 02:30:40,860
exactly.

1641
02:30:41,500 --> 02:30:45,339
You guys would be killer because all these other people who are doing like op

1642
02:30:45,339 --> 02:30:49,899
cat stuff and Jeremy Rubin or whatever, they would all be like, Oh, like, this

1643
02:30:49,899 --> 02:30:53,940
is like, at least, you know, cause like Bitcoin inquisition is one thing, but

1644
02:30:53,940 --> 02:31:00,540
then it would be like, Oh, there's this actual project that is like very like in

1645
02:31:00,540 --> 02:31:05,380
the Bitcoin vein, and then we could actually just launch it over here.

1646
02:31:05,380 --> 02:31:08,740
And it's kind of like, yeah, you can at least do something.

1647
02:31:09,019 --> 02:31:11,820
But so I think there's a lot of people who have like backed up ideas.

1648
02:31:12,139 --> 02:31:15,820
Like there's a lot of like Bitcoin project, people hacking on Bitcoin script

1649
02:31:15,820 --> 02:31:16,259
and stuff.

1650
02:31:17,099 --> 02:31:19,219
They would just think, well, this is the only game in town.

1651
02:31:19,420 --> 02:31:21,699
And then, and they may even, you know, they might think they might have other

1652
02:31:21,699 --> 02:31:22,219
thoughts too.

1653
02:31:22,219 --> 02:31:26,500
They might think like, well, my options are launch my own alt coin, which I don't

1654
02:31:26,500 --> 02:31:26,940
want to do.

1655
02:31:27,339 --> 02:31:29,259
Or they might think, well, what are we going to do with this project?

1656
02:31:29,259 --> 02:31:30,420
We're going to take it to like Ethereum.

1657
02:31:30,420 --> 02:31:30,980
So they think, no.

1658
02:31:31,139 --> 02:31:35,259
So actually I think this is a pretty attractive opportunity.

1659
02:31:35,259 --> 02:31:38,259
You guys would probably become popular.

1660
02:31:38,259 --> 02:31:39,060
And I don't know.

1661
02:31:39,940 --> 02:31:45,060
Uh, I don't know what your chances are with, you know, open sets of grants and

1662
02:31:45,060 --> 02:31:46,699
other stuff like that.

1663
02:31:46,699 --> 02:31:49,579
That's the other thing I wanted to bring up earlier is like, you know, you're in

1664
02:31:49,579 --> 02:31:53,740
competition with companies like Binance who are giving 30% of gas fees to devs and

1665
02:31:53,740 --> 02:31:54,180
shit like that.

1666
02:31:54,180 --> 02:31:56,699
Like, do you have anything in mind that's going to keep you competitive?

1667
02:31:56,740 --> 02:31:59,579
Cause right now you're going to have a really hard time finding people to care

1668
02:31:59,980 --> 02:32:03,339
dev wise, even if it's cool, you know, like it's just the money.

1669
02:32:03,699 --> 02:32:05,300
No, I'm not worried about that at all.

1670
02:32:05,420 --> 02:32:07,180
Um, it's a good question.

1671
02:32:07,259 --> 02:32:12,940
I've answered an FAQ and on the eCash.com what developers really want is the

1672
02:32:12,940 --> 02:32:15,579
freedom to build what they want to create.

1673
02:32:15,740 --> 02:32:17,820
And that's what they want more than anything else.

1674
02:32:17,820 --> 02:32:19,219
Of course, obviously they're like money.

1675
02:32:20,099 --> 02:32:26,019
Um, but you can look at, for example, the example of Satoshi who just, you know,

1676
02:32:26,019 --> 02:32:28,579
we've worked for free and released this project, but you can look at like Jeremy

1677
02:32:28,579 --> 02:32:29,740
Rubin and all these other people.

1678
02:32:29,740 --> 02:32:33,180
They work for years, years and years to months.

1679
02:32:33,180 --> 02:32:34,860
They put months and years perfecting it.

1680
02:32:35,060 --> 02:32:36,380
It's a creative act.

1681
02:32:36,500 --> 02:32:39,860
It's like Beethoven writing his ninth symphony or his other symphonies.

1682
02:32:40,860 --> 02:32:46,699
Um, you know, which are also good, but it's like, it's a creative act and you

1683
02:32:46,699 --> 02:32:48,180
have to wait until it's finished.

1684
02:32:48,219 --> 02:32:50,500
And so, you know, if it's any, what you've got is any good.

1685
02:32:51,459 --> 02:32:53,500
And then they want to be able to turn it on.

1686
02:32:54,380 --> 02:32:58,380
Um, and that's not the same thing as saying that developers don't need any money

1687
02:32:58,380 --> 02:32:59,219
because they're like monks.

1688
02:32:59,219 --> 02:32:59,980
That's not what I'm saying.

1689
02:33:00,380 --> 02:33:02,899
But what I am saying is that's what really motivates them.

1690
02:33:02,899 --> 02:33:06,940
And I'm also saying that it, since it's all open source, we want to be able to

1691
02:33:06,940 --> 02:33:11,339
just take anything that anything that's really good, you know, we can just take,

1692
02:33:11,339 --> 02:33:16,180
I hate to steal and I don't mean to disrespect anyone's, you know, I think

1693
02:33:16,180 --> 02:33:17,579
intellectual property is real.

1694
02:33:17,579 --> 02:33:21,459
Like it's sad when you see like a real comedian who steals jokes.

1695
02:33:21,699 --> 02:33:22,740
Like, I think that's awful.

1696
02:33:22,899 --> 02:33:26,180
That is some, I don't know if it's a crime or how it should work, but that is

1697
02:33:26,180 --> 02:33:26,740
terrible.

1698
02:33:27,139 --> 02:33:31,300
And they have their own culture to like enforce that, you know, about like if

1699
02:33:31,300 --> 02:33:33,980
someone is a known joke thief, you can look this up on YouTube.

1700
02:33:33,980 --> 02:33:34,540
It's interesting.

1701
02:33:35,219 --> 02:33:40,019
Um, so I don't want to just, but at the same time, you know, the Zcash people

1702
02:33:40,019 --> 02:33:41,060
made the orchard crate.

1703
02:33:41,459 --> 02:33:42,779
That's what we use in zSide.

1704
02:33:42,820 --> 02:33:44,019
I think that's what the bug was in.

1705
02:33:44,540 --> 02:33:47,259
So we'll have to look into that.

1706
02:33:47,579 --> 02:33:50,779
And you know, it doesn't have to be like, there are plenty of things people can do.

1707
02:33:50,779 --> 02:33:55,740
I could go into more detail about like developers add like a hidden little back

1708
02:33:55,740 --> 02:34:00,860
door that then they remove later when they get, you know, bought out or whatever

1709
02:34:00,860 --> 02:34:01,219
it is.

1710
02:34:01,540 --> 02:34:04,339
So you gotta have property rights are important.

1711
02:34:04,579 --> 02:34:09,019
But the idea with the development is like, we're not, we don't need to like hire a

1712
02:34:09,019 --> 02:34:11,099
huge team of people to create something new.

1713
02:34:11,699 --> 02:34:16,380
It's either take what works either, or I get it.

1714
02:34:16,420 --> 02:34:17,099
I agree.

1715
02:34:18,099 --> 02:34:22,099
Building it up against people like CZ and I'm gonna tell you from experience, what's

1716
02:34:22,099 --> 02:34:22,860
going to happen, right?

1717
02:34:23,779 --> 02:34:28,659
If you become successful, if big, if by the way, I'm sorry to say, respect you and

1718
02:34:28,659 --> 02:34:32,820
everything, but big, if you know who's going to come in, hijack every single fucking

1719
02:34:32,820 --> 02:34:35,380
thing you've done with more money behind it and take over.

1720
02:34:35,380 --> 02:34:37,259
And all of a sudden it's their idea.

1721
02:34:37,259 --> 02:34:38,019
It's their project.

1722
02:34:38,019 --> 02:34:39,860
Now, finance is going to do that to you.

1723
02:34:40,139 --> 02:34:44,980
So if you succeed, that's not necessarily the whole battle, you know, like you're

1724
02:34:45,060 --> 02:34:50,339
going to need to defend for 20 years, your ecosystem from vampiring and vampiring is

1725
02:34:50,339 --> 02:34:51,899
80% of this fucking ecosystem.

1726
02:34:51,899 --> 02:34:56,180
These days, people will look at your code, rewrite it, say they wrote it from scratch.

1727
02:34:56,380 --> 02:34:58,779
They will copy your exact ideas, rename them.

1728
02:34:58,940 --> 02:35:02,699
They will, they will literally do everything they can to vampire any success factor you

1729
02:35:02,699 --> 02:35:02,940
have.

1730
02:35:02,940 --> 02:35:06,420
Once you get up there, look at Bitcoin cash community and the stuff they face, it's

1731
02:35:06,420 --> 02:35:08,380
going to be the very same systems coming at you.

1732
02:35:08,420 --> 02:35:11,820
That's sort of what you're trying to avoid with the fork is like when you're adding

1733
02:35:11,820 --> 02:35:12,579
those same people.

1734
02:35:12,579 --> 02:35:13,099
Yeah, I get that.

1735
02:35:13,620 --> 02:35:15,540
That's true, but it's still going to be there, though, right?

1736
02:35:15,540 --> 02:35:19,420
Like, see, you're still going to want to take your shit, you know, it's tough out

1737
02:35:19,420 --> 02:35:22,699
there, but, you know, you have to keep in mind that I, what am I, what is my goal?

1738
02:35:22,699 --> 02:35:29,620
Actually, like I was trying the whole time to give BIP300 away for free to the BTC

1739
02:35:29,620 --> 02:35:30,139
community.

1740
02:35:30,540 --> 02:35:33,659
So if they didn't copy it, if people copy it and they say, aha, I'm going to show

1741
02:35:33,659 --> 02:35:40,259
him, I'm going to deploy my huge resources and reach into taking this idea.

1742
02:35:40,259 --> 02:35:42,259
And so, well, that was what actually I wanted the whole time.

1743
02:35:42,380 --> 02:35:44,019
But that's you as the idea guy.

1744
02:35:44,019 --> 02:35:44,899
Now you're a founder.

1745
02:35:44,899 --> 02:35:45,740
Now you're the guy.

1746
02:35:45,740 --> 02:35:47,019
Now everyone's relying on you.

1747
02:35:47,019 --> 02:35:48,219
They're going to come sue you.

1748
02:35:48,219 --> 02:35:51,899
They're going to be angry at you, Paul, if you fucking don't make us billionaires.

1749
02:35:51,899 --> 02:35:52,420
You know what I'm saying?

1750
02:35:53,300 --> 02:35:58,180
People have been angry at me in one way or another before, and it hasn't bothered me

1751
02:35:58,180 --> 02:35:58,940
as much as you might think.

1752
02:35:59,540 --> 02:36:02,219
But of course, you know, I prefer to make everyone happy.

1753
02:36:03,820 --> 02:36:05,339
I'm not worried about development.

1754
02:36:05,339 --> 02:36:07,219
I'm not worried about people stealing.

1755
02:36:07,300 --> 02:36:10,540
I actually know, I have a little bit of experience myself.

1756
02:36:10,540 --> 02:36:14,219
I could tell you from experience, once large amounts of money get involved,

1757
02:36:14,620 --> 02:36:18,019
productivity falls 99%.

1758
02:36:18,060 --> 02:36:22,620
Sometimes it becomes negative, where the more people involved, the more chaos is

1759
02:36:22,620 --> 02:36:23,139
produced.

1760
02:36:23,820 --> 02:36:31,019
And I think I know a little bit about how open source software is run successfully,

1761
02:36:31,019 --> 02:36:31,540
actually.

1762
02:36:31,940 --> 02:36:35,339
So I'm not that worried about that.

1763
02:36:35,339 --> 02:36:40,500
And even the outcome you painted, that's one that I, that I'm not worried about.

1764
02:36:40,740 --> 02:36:42,259
I want to bring about anyway.

1765
02:36:42,300 --> 02:36:44,420
So that's part of what I want.

1766
02:36:44,540 --> 02:36:44,940
Hell yeah.

1767
02:36:44,940 --> 02:36:45,180
Hell yeah.

1768
02:36:45,180 --> 02:36:47,180
So I would kind of enjoy that.

1769
02:36:47,699 --> 02:36:48,980
And I think that's fine.

1770
02:36:48,980 --> 02:36:50,899
Shout out Mark in the Garage down below.

1771
02:36:50,899 --> 02:36:51,860
Time chain pages.

1772
02:36:51,860 --> 02:36:54,659
Paul, please don't let at Decentralized on your stage.

1773
02:36:54,860 --> 02:36:56,099
He is a scene whore.

1774
02:36:56,180 --> 02:36:57,219
Yeah, that's sound.

1775
02:36:57,259 --> 02:36:58,740
That's very sound advice.

1776
02:37:00,019 --> 02:37:05,699
Paul, like, is the overarching goal then, like for you to change, like to change

1777
02:37:05,699 --> 02:37:08,500
Bitcoin more so than this project be successful?

1778
02:37:08,500 --> 02:37:11,420
Like, is like, is that really what you would like to get out of this?

1779
02:37:13,420 --> 02:37:15,100
It's a successful world.

1780
02:37:15,100 --> 02:37:19,220
I'm more worried about the world than I am about eCash or BTC.

1781
02:37:20,220 --> 02:37:21,340
So that's what I'm worried about.

1782
02:37:22,779 --> 02:37:22,979
Okay.

1783
02:37:22,979 --> 02:37:26,100
But you're not a very good, I'm already going to put in a vote to replace you with

1784
02:37:26,100 --> 02:37:27,340
like a Michael Saylor type.

1785
02:37:27,340 --> 02:37:28,300
Cause I need my bags.

1786
02:37:28,340 --> 02:37:29,220
I'm going to mind this shit.

1787
02:37:29,220 --> 02:37:30,499
I'm going to buy this shit, Paul.

1788
02:37:30,659 --> 02:37:34,820
And if you go, if this shit goes down 80% and your excuse is, well, Bitcoin added

1789
02:37:34,940 --> 02:37:36,019
300, we won.

1790
02:37:36,220 --> 02:37:39,540
I'm going to look at you cockeyed, you know, for 10 years, cockeyed.

1791
02:37:41,340 --> 02:37:42,460
No, I already thought of that.

1792
02:37:42,540 --> 02:37:48,659
Um, and I explained to the investors and they have a deal where I, you know, I

1793
02:37:48,659 --> 02:37:49,460
thought of that already.

1794
02:37:49,499 --> 02:37:55,940
So I, I understand that you appreciate the complexity of the situation, but, um, I

1795
02:37:55,940 --> 02:37:59,619
have, I got lots of special schemes for that.

1796
02:37:59,739 --> 02:38:05,460
I, you know, I planned this all out like a long time ago, like five, six, seven

1797
02:38:05,460 --> 02:38:05,940
years ago.

1798
02:38:07,100 --> 02:38:08,659
So just worry about yourself.

1799
02:38:11,139 --> 02:38:13,700
And if you want to hold a vote of no confidence.

1800
02:38:13,979 --> 02:38:17,139
So again, LayerTwo Labs just produces this software, the L2 software, which can

1801
02:38:17,139 --> 02:38:20,300
be used by any BIP300 L1.

1802
02:38:22,019 --> 02:38:23,300
Oh, so that's what layer two.

1803
02:38:23,979 --> 02:38:28,060
If someone else, let's say Bitcoin cash integrates, uh, does that give them the

1804
02:38:28,060 --> 02:38:31,700
ability to do better atomic swaps between Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash or no?

1805
02:38:33,100 --> 02:38:33,700
Oh, yes.

1806
02:38:33,779 --> 02:38:34,180
Interesting.

1807
02:38:34,180 --> 02:38:34,499
Okay.

1808
02:38:34,859 --> 02:38:35,220
Good to know.

1809
02:38:36,300 --> 02:38:39,659
They can also just take the zSide, you know, privacy L2 and the prediction

1810
02:38:39,659 --> 02:38:44,340
markets L2 was the logarithmic scoring rules and all the other bid names and

1811
02:38:44,340 --> 02:38:44,899
bad assets.

1812
02:38:44,899 --> 02:38:45,899
They can just take all that stuff.

1813
02:38:45,899 --> 02:38:50,979
So is BIP300 the best way to form, to forward the concept of atomic swaps?

1814
02:38:51,019 --> 02:38:54,619
Like, cause we don't like, I thought that's what I thought in 2017, 2018, I

1815
02:38:54,619 --> 02:38:58,499
thought we were going to get all these cool UTXO based atomic swap systems.

1816
02:38:58,739 --> 02:39:00,100
And we were, what was that wallet back then?

1817
02:39:00,100 --> 02:39:03,940
I think not box wallet, but something like some simple wallet was like, it was

1818
02:39:03,940 --> 02:39:06,899
just a Dex, uh, before there was Dex's of UTXO.

1819
02:39:06,899 --> 02:39:11,300
The atomic swaps is doing this thing coin shift, which I think is okay.

1820
02:39:11,899 --> 02:39:12,460
It's pretty good.

1821
02:39:12,460 --> 02:39:12,580
Yeah.

1822
02:39:12,580 --> 02:39:13,979
I think, uh, I don't think I've seen that.

1823
02:39:13,979 --> 02:39:15,659
I've had to look, but yeah, stuff like that.

1824
02:39:15,659 --> 02:39:18,820
I think it's where, where this, where this really shines, you know, like if we

1825
02:39:18,820 --> 02:39:23,619
can stop using exchanges as much because of some upgrade to UTXO model.

1826
02:39:23,739 --> 02:39:24,540
This is a coin shift.

1827
02:39:25,899 --> 02:39:29,340
You should check out a coin shift, but I think, I think it can replace exchanges.

1828
02:39:29,340 --> 02:39:32,619
But I think the idea is that as long as you have like a good enough fallback,

1829
02:39:33,300 --> 02:39:37,899
where, you know, like you don't need the exchange anymore, then the exchange is

1830
02:39:37,899 --> 02:39:42,820
kind of like, you know, extra on top, you know, but then it kind of reduces

1831
02:39:42,820 --> 02:39:43,899
their negotiating leverage.

1832
02:39:44,220 --> 02:39:44,859
That's the problem.

1833
02:39:44,859 --> 02:39:47,739
Like the reason like you guys are all bullish on stable coins is just because

1834
02:39:47,739 --> 02:39:49,979
we're so reliant on these centralized entities, I think, right?

1835
02:39:50,460 --> 02:39:54,340
There should be more reliance on Peggy things versus Bitcoin and Bitcoin going,

1836
02:39:54,340 --> 02:39:57,899
but we've gotten away from that because we started relying on centralized

1837
02:39:57,899 --> 02:40:00,739
entities, which relied on other centralized entities, which, you know,

1838
02:40:00,739 --> 02:40:04,340
like the, the pressure just goes from the banks all the way down to the exchanges.

1839
02:40:04,619 --> 02:40:07,420
And then we get assist ecosystem that doesn't look like what it was supposed

1840
02:40:07,420 --> 02:40:10,700
to be because of those incentive structures and like atomic swaps.

1841
02:40:11,100 --> 02:40:14,220
Undermine that entire structure incentive wise and let us just

1842
02:40:14,220 --> 02:40:15,379
peer to peer do shit again.

1843
02:40:15,659 --> 02:40:15,859
Yeah.

1844
02:40:15,859 --> 02:40:18,859
That allows you to swap things or don't move them amongst chains.

1845
02:40:18,859 --> 02:40:22,300
That was something I was asking JK earlier about this, this peg thing.

1846
02:40:22,300 --> 02:40:25,460
And he explained to me that there's absolutely no risk or a

1847
02:40:25,460 --> 02:40:27,379
need for a standard like IBC.

1848
02:40:27,420 --> 02:40:29,180
Can you help me better understand that?

1849
02:40:29,180 --> 02:40:31,779
Like how you're able to peg out risklessly?

1850
02:40:31,779 --> 02:40:34,100
Isn't there supposed to be a mining vote or something like that?

1851
02:40:34,100 --> 02:40:34,659
That happens.

1852
02:40:36,993 --> 02:40:40,673
You're talking about BIP300, the coins move where there's no, there's no people involved.

1853
02:40:40,713 --> 02:40:43,393
It's a BIP300 does deposits in the withdrawals.

1854
02:40:43,633 --> 02:40:48,993
Now there is, um, then the L1 full nodes, not looking at what happens with the withdrawal.

1855
02:40:49,473 --> 02:40:51,393
So you don't see what happens there.

1856
02:40:51,393 --> 02:40:55,913
So it can be, but the, the idea is this, all the L2s are merged mind.

1857
02:40:56,073 --> 02:41:01,153
So the mind from the miner's point of view, these are just like factories that just print money.

1858
02:41:01,153 --> 02:41:02,712
You know, these are magic money tree.

1859
02:41:03,233 --> 02:41:06,833
The money is just like coming off of them for free, passively doing nothing.

1860
02:41:07,353 --> 02:41:16,313
So, uh, the idea is that miners, they automatically, they process the deposits and the withdrawals correctly.

1861
02:41:16,592 --> 02:41:19,792
Now, if the minor intervene, let me just last sentence.

1862
02:41:20,112 --> 02:41:23,033
If the miners intervene, they can screw up the withdrawals.

1863
02:41:23,353 --> 02:41:25,873
But the idea is why would they do that?

1864
02:41:25,873 --> 02:41:28,112
Because these are just things that just bring money for them.

1865
02:41:28,313 --> 02:41:30,592
So it depends on what's transaction fees.

1866
02:41:30,592 --> 02:41:34,792
So there's some math on this and the original November, 2015 post.

1867
02:41:35,193 --> 02:41:46,512
And then since I got done, like, you know, you do a little napkin math and see, well, what kind of fees are we looking at in the real world and how many coins would be on the chain, you know?

1868
02:41:46,512 --> 02:41:50,153
And so then how many, you know, how bad could the withdrawals get, et cetera.

1869
02:41:50,512 --> 02:41:53,552
And again, it comes out like pretty fine, pretty well.

1870
02:41:53,552 --> 02:42:01,872
I think, you know, where it's like the amount of money they earn greatly outstrips the amount of money they could miss withdrawal.

1871
02:42:02,592 --> 02:42:05,592
So then it just seems like it would work to me.

1872
02:42:05,632 --> 02:42:07,113
Now there's no guarantee that it will work.

1873
02:42:07,272 --> 02:42:08,993
It could fail just like anything else.

1874
02:42:09,673 --> 02:42:16,192
I think actually a lot of stuff that people think works today, such as Bitcoin lightning network, et cetera, et cetera.

1875
02:42:16,192 --> 02:42:18,512
I think a lot of this stuff basically has already failed.

1876
02:42:18,952 --> 02:42:25,113
So there's a lot of stuff today that people put a lot of time and energy in that I think is substantially worse than this idea.

1877
02:42:25,393 --> 02:42:30,993
So you should just check it out for yourself and see what you think of these numbers and the logic of the whole thing.

1878
02:42:31,552 --> 02:42:36,473
But yeah, that's the idea that the miners vote, but kind of if they just leave it on autopilot, it will work.

1879
02:42:36,512 --> 02:42:43,552
They have to like manually like screw everything up in order to just screw up the withdrawals.

1880
02:42:43,552 --> 02:42:49,793
The deposits always work because just because of the way the L2s work, the deposits will always work perfectly.

1881
02:42:49,832 --> 02:42:59,953
The withdrawal calculation, if they're able to steal a billion dollars and sacrifice a million per month, then opportunistically they may do so.

1882
02:42:59,953 --> 02:43:08,672
But in the case where they're invested in the success of the Drivechain, like you would you'd expect them to act economically rational.

1883
02:43:09,472 --> 02:43:11,272
Why in design?

1884
02:43:11,272 --> 02:43:12,713
Why is that?

1885
02:43:12,912 --> 02:43:15,472
Why go that way rather than a cryptographic proof?

1886
02:43:17,912 --> 02:43:32,472
Well, actually, I think the cryptographic proof doesn't add very much because the cryptographic proof, if you think about it like this, let's say that instead of thinking about it in terms of this could never, ever break versus something that could break.

1887
02:43:33,313 --> 02:43:39,313
If you if you frame it that way, then obviously the cryptographic way looks better.

1888
02:43:40,073 --> 02:43:41,873
But what if you framed it a different way?

1889
02:43:42,392 --> 02:43:43,912
Let's just say you frame it.

1890
02:43:43,912 --> 02:43:45,313
There's two methods.

1891
02:43:45,313 --> 02:43:48,433
One, the 51% hashrate actually hates.

1892
02:43:48,472 --> 02:43:49,713
They don't like it at all.

1893
02:43:50,313 --> 02:43:51,073
And they don't like it.

1894
02:43:51,073 --> 02:43:51,552
They hate it.

1895
02:43:52,472 --> 02:43:54,112
Of course, in the middle, they could be indifferent.

1896
02:43:54,112 --> 02:43:55,912
But then there's no that they could.

1897
02:43:56,032 --> 02:43:56,912
They really love it.

1898
02:43:56,953 --> 02:43:57,993
They love that it's there.

1899
02:43:57,993 --> 02:44:27,953
Okay, so in this conception, the one where they love it, it's everything's fine because it will work and then where they hate it, actually, the cryptographic one is kind of also doomed because the miners could maybe censor the miners can always censor the deposits or the withdrawals, and they can in the case of the lightning network, they could do all kinds of other interference, you know, it's much easier for 51% hashrate to steal from the lightning network from a lightning channel than it is from the cryptographic proof.

1900
02:44:27,993 --> 02:44:28,832
L2 drivechain.

1901
02:44:28,873 --> 02:44:40,593
Yeah, I think I'd better understand actually matrix like having one where, yeah, the like the economic rationale there could make more sense in the actual operation.

1902
02:44:42,593 --> 02:44:47,433
As soon as there's a bug in the cryptographic one, well, someone's going to exploit it and take all the coins.

1903
02:44:47,713 --> 02:44:53,153
But actually, what if there's a bug in something that everyone is enthusiastic about it working?

1904
02:44:53,153 --> 02:45:00,072
Yeah, rely on the human rely on the malware, operate like the human malwares that we're probably gonna act in our own self.

1905
02:45:00,112 --> 02:45:00,952
Yeah, exactly.

1906
02:45:01,792 --> 02:45:06,313
So they're gonna think, well, wait a minute, I noticed this bug, and then they'll just kind of fix it quietly.

1907
02:45:06,313 --> 02:45:07,672
They won't want to exploit it.

1908
02:45:08,193 --> 02:45:08,792
You know what I mean?

1909
02:45:08,832 --> 02:45:11,512
It's like, it's like, we just think so that's better.

1910
02:45:11,512 --> 02:45:13,993
Actually, I think that's almost better.

1911
02:45:14,232 --> 02:45:15,313
Not necessarily.

1912
02:45:15,672 --> 02:45:19,232
But it's also happens to be way simpler.

1913
02:45:19,232 --> 02:45:23,593
Like BIP300 is just this counter that counts like 13,000 over and over.

1914
02:45:24,313 --> 02:45:27,232
So it's not really that complicated.

1915
02:45:27,352 --> 02:45:31,352
And whereas these other things are like the ZK, blah, blah, blah.

1916
02:45:31,672 --> 02:45:36,913
And it's kind of like, and we just saw with there's an orchard, there's a inflation bug in Zcash.

1917
02:45:36,913 --> 02:45:46,112
So yeah, we've seen like countless, quote unquote, safe bridges, whether it's like a multisig or some other tech, lose hundreds of millions of dollars.

1918
02:45:46,112 --> 02:45:47,832
So I don't disagree with you there.

1919
02:45:49,633 --> 02:45:50,272
Completely agree.

1920
02:45:50,272 --> 02:45:57,753
Yeah, I'd rather bet on something that's a little more transparent, that people can kind of figure out, okay, this is how it's supposed to work and why.

1921
02:45:58,392 --> 02:46:00,272
And so I actually think that's a little bit better.

1922
02:46:00,873 --> 02:46:05,672
Obviously, I would prefer something where it could never break, and etc, etc.

1923
02:46:05,672 --> 02:46:16,392
But I actually think this is a perfectly fine set of trade offs, especially because in a world, you can imagine a world where the cryptographic thing doesn't pay.

1924
02:46:16,392 --> 02:46:19,313
Like, imagine you have a cryptographic thing that works perfectly.

1925
02:46:19,633 --> 02:46:22,392
No one can ever steal from it or interfere with it in any way.

1926
02:46:23,272 --> 02:46:25,313
And it doesn't charge transaction fees.

1927
02:46:26,392 --> 02:46:28,512
Versus MergeMind L2 drivechain.

1928
02:46:29,672 --> 02:46:36,832
Well, in the MergeMind L2 Drivechain, the miners are getting lots and lots and lots of free money that they wouldn't have gotten before.

1929
02:46:37,473 --> 02:46:40,672
And whereas the cryptographic thing, they aren't getting any money.

1930
02:46:41,033 --> 02:46:55,873
So, you know, it's kind of like, maybe that's actually worse, because, and even if that such a thing like can't really exist, because you need transaction fees to stop people from flood, because of course, the transaction fee is also like the cost of DDoSing and flooding the network.

1931
02:46:55,873 --> 02:46:57,792
So it can't literally be zero.

1932
02:46:58,033 --> 02:47:00,593
But I'm just trying to paint as an example here.

1933
02:47:00,713 --> 02:47:12,913
If you had the, the miners would want to maybe attack and destroy the cryptographic where they would say, well, this, you're not allowed to use this one, because we prefer you to use the one that pays us the transaction fee.

1934
02:47:13,112 --> 02:47:14,633
That's kind of an extreme case.

1935
02:47:14,832 --> 02:47:21,112
But that actually is the case that like, for example, the lightning network would be in in the long run, if it actually worked, lightning doesn't really work.

1936
02:47:21,112 --> 02:47:21,873
So it doesn't matter.

1937
02:47:22,112 --> 02:47:41,913
But like, if you made it to 8 billion users, then there'd be all these people transacting on the lightning network, the LSPs would be collecting hundreds of billions of dollars in transaction fee revenues per year, and the miners would not, but the miners would be thinking, hey, we are the ones that make the channels, we make the blocks, the L1 blocks and the L1 channels that make all this possible.

1938
02:47:42,913 --> 02:47:48,193
And so yeah, like in the optimistic case, greed reinforces one while it destroys the other.

1939
02:47:49,193 --> 02:47:54,433
And in the in the less optimistic case, it's a low value Drivechain, and it probably doesn't matter.

1940
02:47:54,433 --> 02:47:57,913
That's exactly right.

1941
02:47:57,913 --> 02:48:07,993
So I also think like, if it's not, if people aren't paying transaction fees to use it, and if it's not like contributing to the Bitcoin exchange rate, well, then maybe it shouldn't exist at all.

1942
02:48:07,993 --> 02:48:15,913
And maybe that's a clue that no one should be, you know, the developers, the users, the miners, no one should really be paying very much attention to this.

1943
02:48:15,913 --> 02:48:25,433
So I kind of took it, I took it as a kind of assumption that people would be using it for transaction fees, and that the miners would be happy to have it around.

1944
02:48:25,873 --> 02:48:28,272
And so I've kind of built it around those assumptions.

1945
02:48:28,272 --> 02:48:35,112
And then once you do that, this is like the cheapest, easiest, most efficient, like kind of like easiest to follow.

1946
02:48:35,873 --> 02:48:39,993
Like this is like a very, very healthy design.

1947
02:48:40,272 --> 02:48:42,552
And then if those aren't true, then it's not garbage.

1948
02:48:42,552 --> 02:48:47,873
The garbage removal is kind of like just an added byproduct, I guess.

1949
02:48:48,313 --> 02:48:49,633
Like, OK, what about.

1950
02:48:50,352 --> 02:48:52,033
Right. I prefer I get deleted.

1951
02:48:52,873 --> 02:48:57,473
OK, what about like more advanced things that we see on some other chains?

1952
02:48:57,473 --> 02:49:03,153
Like how would like they can talk to each other in this way where risk is minimized, as you explained?

1953
02:49:03,473 --> 02:49:12,912
What about things like composability, doing something on one Drivechain to affect accounts on another block and another Drivechain, for example?

1954
02:49:14,753 --> 02:49:17,873
Well, you could have such a thing.

1955
02:49:17,873 --> 02:49:23,672
And what it would probably be is you'd have L1, then you have a bunch of L2s like ABC.

1956
02:49:25,152 --> 02:49:26,873
Then you probably make yet another thing.

1957
02:49:26,873 --> 02:49:28,313
This is like what CoinShift is.

1958
02:49:28,912 --> 02:49:39,712
CoinShift takes like it says this is an L2 with like several different L1s that it is aware of, not that it is like merge mined with or something.

1959
02:49:39,712 --> 02:49:47,313
But it's like you could also do this where you have another L2, like L3 or something that's like aware of like a whole family of different L2s and L1s.

1960
02:49:47,953 --> 02:49:52,873
And as long as you this is tricky to do, but it is it is possible.

1961
02:49:52,873 --> 02:49:55,912
And that's what CoinShift is an example of that.

1962
02:49:55,912 --> 02:50:02,193
So you'd make like a new thing that's like kind of it just covers them all at the same time.

1963
02:50:02,193 --> 02:50:08,232
And then it knows about any as soon as something happens in one of those networks, it knows about it.

1964
02:50:08,232 --> 02:50:10,912
And it can like, you know, have one giant.

1965
02:50:10,993 --> 02:50:15,513
And they're all synced, right?

1966
02:50:15,552 --> 02:50:18,712
You don't have an async situation between drivechains.

1967
02:50:18,712 --> 02:50:20,513
Or do I not understand that bit correctly?

1968
02:50:21,513 --> 02:50:36,712
Well, I think every blockchain could be reorg, so I don't know the extent to which I would describe it either way, you know, right, because they are becoming finalized over time.

1969
02:50:38,193 --> 02:50:45,273
So I'm not sure if I would explain it that way, but it's possible.

1970
02:50:45,513 --> 02:51:00,393
Yeah, I mean, one thing is that like, listen, think about like something like Edge Wallet or Cake Wallet, like that's a piece of software that has, it's aware of many, many, many blockchains, so that you can see that that's possible.

1971
02:51:00,393 --> 02:51:15,833
Or Jax, they used to have that, you know, these multi-coin wallets, so you could build something like that, and then you could build something that also is a blockchain.

1972
02:51:31,393 --> 02:51:33,393
Okay, this has been really, really great.

1973
02:51:33,393 --> 02:51:36,393
Supposed to be from 2 to 4, now it's 2 to 4.50.

1974
02:51:36,393 --> 02:51:40,393
So I think we should end it here, even though it was really fun.

1975
02:51:40,393 --> 02:51:42,393
Oh, wait, we got one person.

1976
02:51:42,393 --> 02:51:46,393
And Ovega, OG Vega.

1977
02:51:46,393 --> 02:51:55,393
Maybe we can, or maybe they can come next week, because we do them every week.

1978
02:51:56,393 --> 02:52:02,393
And I don't know if they could join in time, but probably not.

1979
02:52:02,393 --> 02:52:05,393
Okay, but this will be posted.

1980
02:52:05,393 --> 02:52:07,393
The recording will be on YouTube.

1981
02:52:07,393 --> 02:52:10,393
We're starting up our YouTube channel.

1982
02:52:10,393 --> 02:52:12,393
It's going to put some cool stuff on there.

1983
02:52:12,393 --> 02:52:16,393
And all the recordings will be on YouTube, and we can do this every Wednesday.

1984
02:52:16,393 --> 02:52:19,393
And maybe we'll do it on a different day if someone really, really, really wants to join.

1985
02:52:19,393 --> 02:52:22,393
They can't join on Wednesday for some reason.

1986
02:52:22,393 --> 02:52:23,393
We'll move it around.

1987
02:52:23,393 --> 02:52:25,393
But this was really good.

1988
02:52:25,393 --> 02:52:29,393
Thanks to everyone who participated and asked a question or comment.

1989
02:52:29,393 --> 02:52:31,393
So thanks very much.

1990
02:52:31,393 --> 02:52:33,393
And I'm going to end it here.

1991
02:52:33,393 --> 02:52:34,393
Thanks.

1992
02:52:34,393 --> 02:52:37,393
Watch the recordings on YouTube or other places.

1993
02:52:37,393 --> 02:52:39,393
So thanks a lot, everyone.

1994
02:52:39,393 --> 02:52:41,393
See you guys next week.

1995
02:52:41,393 --> 02:52:43,393
Thanks.

1996
02:52:43,393 --> 02:52:44,393
Thank you.