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Oh, it's working. Pretty sure this is going.

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Wow. Great.

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Hello there, and welcome to the Bitcoin Takeover podcast. This is season 15, episode
16,

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and it's a drunk cast with two important twists. I've invited Paul Sztorc for the
fifth time ever

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on the podcast. In the last three months, I think we spent more than 12 hours
talking. I think my

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girlfriend right now is jealous because I spent so much time talking with Paul,

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and we spoke so much about Drivechains, and that used to be a big debate. And
Bitcoin now, I think

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it flipped a bit into the field of covenants, and it seems like there are way too
many proposals.

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And I decided to invite Paul once again and challenge him to not talk about
Drivechains

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or BIP300. And the deal is that each time he mentions Drivechains or BIP300 while
talking

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about other LayerTwo solutions, he's going to have to send me a Lightning
transaction.

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But if the Lightning transaction fails, we both have drinks, and we're going to have
to take a

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shot, both at the same time. So it's a drunk cast. I'm not really sure if it's going
to work

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out because, you know, do I desire to take the drink that may offset? And I got my
liquid,

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look, I got my liquid. Blockstream gave this to me back in the day. Officially
sponsored

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and endorsed by Blockstream. Everything we say is officially endorsed by
Blockstream.

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I don't know what to say about that, Paul, but I guess we're going to be drinking a
lot tonight,

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unless Lightning works. Maybe it will work fine. I mean, I'm the one sending them. I
got,

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we should put some parameters on that. Do we do, how many Phoenixes do we get?

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I'll just see how it goes. I got, I got, I got a bunch of, I got a Phoenix, I got, I
got Moon.

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Oh, but Moon is not really a Lightning wallet. It's more like a swapping wallet.

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Yeah, Phoenix. I've got a bunch of, I've got a bunch of Electrum where I have so
many Electrum

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balances in. You haven't sinned yet, so it's fine. Let's talk about, so you are the
CEO of

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LayerTwo Labs, right? Yes, I am. Layer 2 means much more than sidechains or the type
of minor

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enforced sidechains, which you are promoting and we're not going to be mentioning.

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What is a Layer 2? You know, a lot of, a lot of internet debates have been had about
that.

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A lot of time has been spent. Hey, did you ever see that movie, Catch Me If You Can,

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and he has the cashier's check and he says, it's as good as cash. And he gives it to
the

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prostitute. Have you seen that movie? I feel like this is your kind of movie.

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Why? Because there's a prostitute? There's prostitutes in it.

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There's prostitutes, there's financial engineering,

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there's scammers. You haven't seen it? John Williams wrote the score. It's not, you
know,

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it's not the greatest, most iconic John Williams score.

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Now I realize that you don't have a good opinion of me.

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Yeah. No, I have a very good opinion of you. No, that's the star, that's whatever,

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Leonardo DiCaprio, whoever that is, is the star of the show. No wait, it's not him.
That was it

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instead. No, it is him. I don't know. It's been a really long time since I've seen
that movie,

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but he says it's as good as cash. And the point is, that's the point, is you don't
get an L1

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UTXO, you get something else. But you have, with it comes a belief that this thing
is mostly the

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same. They exchange at par. So you expect it to be redeemed one-to-one, and you gain
some convenience,

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but you lose some certainty. There you go, layer two. Okay, fine. So what's a layer
two?

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Can you be more specific? That's what I just said. I just said that.

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It's like you don't get L1 BTC, but you get something. You get a VTXO from ARK,

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and you get one Bitcoin, and you get one 10 Bitcoin, and they add up to 11. And you
think,

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I got these two VTXOs. No one will be able to screw me from redeeming them for L1
BTC if I wish.

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And also, I can transfer them to other people who believe similarly. And also, the
value cannot

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really increase above. It can't really go significantly below or above 11 BTC. So
then you

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have something that, while it is not L1 BTC, it almost is. But right now, you're
only constructing

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this definition based on the monetary layer. But you're not saying technically what
the layer two

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is. Is it a sidechain? Is it something that's built on top like the lightning
network?

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Well, I don't think it even has to be anything technical. It could be that you have
put coins

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onto an open dime, or even you've just written something on a piece of paper almost.
I'm not

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sure where the boundary is. But if you have some reason to believe, okay, I now have
taken

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possession of this open dime that has 15 BTC on it. I could give it to someone else,
and they will

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understand that this thing is, or like the Caucasus coins. You remember those?

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You mean Causasus?

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I don't remember what the letters were.

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You said Caucasus.

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The Caucasian coins. Yeah, he made one for each race. Like the three rings of power,

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you know, the elven rings. So yes, whatever those were. You get one, and you kind of
think, okay,

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the creator of all these coins, he may have peeked at the private key,

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and he may have stolen all the Bitcoin. But no one else has had that problem with

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whatever, Caspian Sea coins. I don't remember what it was, how it was spelled.

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I just remember.

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Esacius.

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Esacius. Yeah, thank you.

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Michael Caldwell, the creator of BIP32, I think. No, 38, sorry. BIP38.

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38, yeah. That's the one where you can encrypt the private key with like two,

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you split it into like two things, so that the manufacturer only has like half of
it,

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and then you have a part so that they can't easily conspire when you make like this.

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It's like, I have some, I have some something with that.

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The ballet?

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Yeah, the ballet cards. And I have some, the LayerTwo Labs ones.

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How about that? Not talking about the forbidden thing, but now I have them. Yeah,
BIP38,

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there it is. Look at that. We didn't plan this. I just happened to have one near my

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desk. You can't see it, but it says BIP38 Crypto Standard.

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If you go to the right conference, you're going to get a free belly, I think.

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Right.

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They have this sort of marketing going on. I don't know exactly who actually uses
it.

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Yeah, that's good. They're kind of a cool novelty. Definitely, I have like normie
friends who

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don't really know a lot about Bitcoin, but they like, they like, they like the
cards.

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They're like, oh, cool. They wanted to, they all wanted to have,

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to pass them around and look at them. So, for what that's worth.

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So Sean Leary, who is a rare Pepe scientist, wants to know when Caucasian coin
launch.

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Yeah. I mean, I feel like we're, we should have gotten that one out of the way a
long time ago.

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Anyway, we got sidetracked.

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What's a layer 2, Paul?

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Perfectly. Didn't I explain it?

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You described that.

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So this, this could like sort of be a layer 2 in a way. I mean, OpenDime could be a
layer 2.

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It depends on the person's, whether or not there's this group of people who actually
has the belief

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that the thing is redeemable. So for OpenDime, there's a like a set of, there's a
hardware stack

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and there's, with whatever, Caspian coin, there's, there's like a brand and there's
like this,

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this idea behind it, that the creator is just this type of person who would not, you
know,

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they're a Bitcoiner and a lot of people, no one has ever complained. And they're
just,

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they have the foil sticker and they're kind of neat. So, but you understand what I
mean.

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With Lightning, you get, you get something that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's,
it's,

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it's not a L1 UTXO. When you, when you connect and you have zero coin, when you
fund, you have

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zero, you open the channel, someone opens the channel to you, you have zero BTC.
Then they

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start paying you on Lightning. Your screen says you received whatever BTC, but it's
not an L1 UTXO.

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I think your definition is a bit too broad. As in, if I was to take this into
consideration,

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then maybe WBTC, which is custodied by BitGo and issued on Ethereum is also a layer
two.

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And there are lots of other wrapped projects on Tron and on, what's the other one?
Solana or

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whatever. So by your definition, the fact that these Bitcoins got locked in some
contract

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and issued on another blockchain, which has a native shit going on top, that's a
layer two.

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And I don't think that's the case. Is Liquid a layer two?

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That's debatable. Yeah, I got to there because that's exactly the same as wrapped
Bitcoin,

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basically. Yeah, but they're going to say, yeah, but it doesn't have a native shit
coin of its own.

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They've been trying to, they've been trying only because they haven't succeeded.
They've been

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trying to issue gaming tokens and whatever on Liquid the whole time, confidential
assets.

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Oh yeah, but that's not native. That's what I mean, because I can also issue

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whatever, Vlatcoin on Liquid, but it doesn't mean that it's used for paying for
transaction fees.

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Well, that's true. In wrapped Bitcoin, you pay the fee in ETH, but you move the BTC,

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you move the BTC instrument. I mean, I suppose that seems like a pretty small
difference.

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There's Coco in the chat on YouTube, and he says layer two has to connect to Bitcoin
in some way.

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Wrapped BTC on Ethereum doesn't really. But isn't that true for Liquid also?

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Liquid is just a multi-sig on L1 and

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wrapped BTC is just a multi-sig custodian of the BTC. What's the difference there?

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Well, there's more trust involved in WBTC because you have to trust BitGo and you
have to trust also

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the blockchain that's transacting it.

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But that's true for Liquid though, right? Don't you have to trust

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the Liquid blockchain doesn't just malfunction?

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Yeah, but it's a federation. It's not one entity.

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For wrapped BTC, it's just like a multi-sig in both cases.

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I mean, at the Bitcoin base layer, you can argue that it's a multi-sig, but

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what happens afterwards, I think there are layers, no pun intended, to the quality.

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The block construction is also a multi-sig.

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Whereas at least with wrapped BTC, you actually have the Ethereum blockchain.

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How is that any better?

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I don't really, I think they're both pretty bad.

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But I think that you have the progress, the forward progress of the Ethereum

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proof of stake chain, which I'm not trying to say that that's great.

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And then for Liquid, there's like this rounds of communication.

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The blocks are constructed by a set of people.

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Okay, let's see.

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You have a very confused look on your face.

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We can agree that Liquid is not a layer 2.

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It's more like layer 1.5 or something.

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But what about Rootstock?

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If there's a BTC redeemable instrument, then that thing is layer 2, I kind of think.

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Maybe what you are trying to say is like, is it still something that has its own
independent

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existence the whole time?

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I don't know.

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It doesn't seem to be important to me.

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Like the people who are using these things, like wrapped BTC has like 150,000 BTC in
it.

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And even the entire Lightning Network has only less than 5,000.

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And Liquid has less than 4,000.

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So wrapped BTC is an actual thing.

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Whereas I would say that Liquid is not really...

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Liquid and Lightning Network, they're barely things.

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They are like two ten thousandths or a very small percent of the 19.5 million coins
that

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are circulating.

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So wrapped BTC, you have to be, I don't know, to even qualify as something, you have
to

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be a certain size.

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I understand what you're trying to do here, playing the devil's advocate.

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But I disagree because this TDL argument does not imply necessarily that there's
greater

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finality with transactions or better network security.

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00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:13,440
It's just that some people want to speculate using BTC on DeFi contracts and they
want

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to lend it.

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00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:15,520
They want to borrow it.

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They want to do whatever.

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They want to earn yield.

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I'm just saying to qualify for any name at all, including the name of a layer two or

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if it's small, then it's not.

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00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,480
But I don't know.

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00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,240
So what's your definition of layer two then?

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Something that's built on top of Bitcoin.

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Something built on top of Bitcoin.

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Doesn't have a native token other than Bitcoin.

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It has to be Bitcoin layer two.

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It can't be like lightning on Litecoin or something.

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So it's built on Bitcoin.

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That part's not important, though, because you'd say it's a Litecoin L2 if it was
the

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same thing.

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So it's built on some blockchain.

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And what was the second part?

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And does not have a native token of its own.

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So everything is paid for in BTC.

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00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,280
But then if you have something where like.

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00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,200
But doesn't it mean if you have Taro, then lightning stops becoming a layer two?

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That doesn't make any sense.

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00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,440
What's your argument there about Taro?

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If you have more coins that aren't BTC, you say there has to be the fee.

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The fees can never be if the fees are ever paid in an issued asset.

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00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,760
Does ever that if lightning ever collects a fee priced in a Taro.

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Vlad coin, then it stops being a layer two.

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00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:44,880
I don't know why.

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Why would that matter?

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00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:46,880
Why does it matter?

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00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,960
That's going to be a layer three or whatever.

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00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:55,120
And I doubted that the token that you can issue and print as many as you want can
ever

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become something that the network accepts as a transaction fee.

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00:16:59,120 --> 00:16:59,920
Makes no sense.

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00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:10,880
They may out of band, except like a payment of 10 million Sheeb Taro return for
something.

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00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:11,440
I don't know.

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00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:13,280
All right.

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00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:13,840
OK, fine.

198
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,120
I mean, you can also do that on the base layer, right?

199
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:20,240
You can send the miners your Ponzi Pepe.

200
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,880
And you're going to bribe them to basically include your.

201
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,440
Yeah, I could go to them in person and I could give them whatever a loaf of bread or
something.

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00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,320
Or, you know, a bottle of wine.

203
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:35,840
And so.

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00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,480
The I don't know what difference it makes.

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00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,160
But maybe we should move on to the next question.

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00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,080
I'm sure you prepared a long list of questions.

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00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:47,840
I did.

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00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,480
So let's compare rootstock with liquid.

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00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:50,980
OK.

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00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:53,920
Rootstock.

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00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,200
Rootstock.

212
00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,920
Well, I assume you mean like.

213
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,760
merge mining is the relevant difference or I don't know.

214
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,240
Rootstock, they have.

215
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,080
Rootstock is also very small and a rootstock has not reached the form that it
intends to reach.

216
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,480
So we would just be looking at it right now where they have these

217
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,440
HSM boxes and they have this hybrid thing where it's

218
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:33,040
they're mostly the federated version of RSK is basically very similar, the same as
liquid.

219
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:40,240
Although the blocks are merge mined and they pay miners money, they have a large
participation

220
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:44,400
of the hash rate who earns money in liquid.

221
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,320
The all the transaction fees are go to a wall controlled by Blockstream.

222
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,080
According to what they published on that, I don't know if anyone has ever actually
checked.

223
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,040
But according to their own website, that is the case.

224
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,560
No, I think that's a good distinction.

225
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,880
For the record, I did have Sergio Damien Lerner on the show.

226
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,880
You can check out on YouTube or Spotify or whatever it is that you're using and
listen

227
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,160
to that interview.

228
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,200
I think he's a very interesting guy and super underrated.

229
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,440
He's the architect of rootstock or RSK, call it what you want.

230
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:24,480
And where I draw the distinction between rootstock and liquid is that liquid is
static.

231
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,760
It doesn't aim to be anything more than what it is.

232
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,720
It's complacent in the fact that it's a federation.

233
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,560
It's complacent in the fact that it doesn't pay anything to the miners.

234
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:43,600
Whereas rootstock is righteous in many, I was about to say virtuous, but it's
righteous

235
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:44,400
in many ways.

236
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,320
It's trying to become trust minimized.

237
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:55,440
Right now it's using HSMs for security, but it's trying its best to become trust
minimized.

238
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:01,040
Sergio is playing with BitVM and we're going to talk about that one also shortly.

239
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,200
And they are paying fees to the miners because they feel like they want to
contribute to

240
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,200
the security of the Bitcoin base layer, which I think is very noble from them.

241
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,720
Well, I think it's also the only thing that will work in the future.

242
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,480
We can talk about that if you wish, but I think it's kind of important.

243
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:30,400
There's two completely different categories of L2, the ones that pay the miners and
the

244
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:31,120
ones that do not.

245
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,880
And if you don't pay the miners and the fees are significant, it's a significant
amount

246
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,680
of money, then eventually there will either be conflict or vertical integration.

247
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,680
And so there will be...

248
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,320
And a vertical integration, in a way, is a kind of conflict.

249
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:54,400
It just says that everyone else is fired and only the miners actually run the,
whatever

250
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,200
you want to call it, the arc supernode.

251
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,040
So I think in the long run, those are all dead.

252
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:06,800
And in the long run, they will become, ironically, vectors for mining centralization
if they

253
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:07,600
are successful.

254
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:14,240
And they will then lead to a situation where their security assumptions don't even
make

255
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:21,680
any sense because the one lightning service provider just is like Foundry and it has
55%

256
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,240
hash rate.

257
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,880
And it's just the Foundry lightning node is the only lightning node in town because
it'll

258
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,000
No, it's not 55%.

259
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,960
No, I'm saying the hypothetical future in like 20 years.

260
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,560
I'm saying, I don't think this will happen, but I think that this is what would
happen

261
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,560
if this is one of the reasons why it wouldn't happen because it doesn't work.

262
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,160
I'm not sure what you mean by it doesn't work.

263
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:48,720
What doesn't?

264
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:55,680
The whole point of lightning is all these assumptions about you can, if you're
cheated,

265
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,040
you can go to the chain for justice.

266
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:09,440
But to do that, you need to have included the awkwardly named justice transaction
that

267
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,600
needs to be included in the blockchain in a certain amount of time.

268
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,840
If you have more than 50% hash rate, you can stop it from ever being included.

269
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,840
Certainly, you can stop it for two weeks or whatever.

270
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,400
Now, when I bring this up, people who study lightning say, well, yeah, sure.

271
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:34,800
Just don't open a channel with anyone who has a lot of hash rate.

272
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:43,680
But that is a mistake to say, because all that means is that it's an inducement.

273
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,800
In the hypothetical world where lightning is the only L2 that's successful, you can

274
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,240
In the past, we had the last year, we had 1.1 trillion transactions on earth.

275
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,960
And this number doubles about every five to six years.

276
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,120
So there'll be five years from now, there'll be 2.2 trillion.

277
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:08,640
And if they each pay 10 cents in a transaction fee, and I've chose 10 cents because
it means

278
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,120
you can only be undercut by about nine cents.

279
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,200
And I mean, you can't really undercut

280
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,200
And most people don't care that much about nine cents.

281
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,480
So maybe some people do, but most don't.

282
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,920
Not enough to switch chains.

283
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,400
You know what I mean?

284
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:28,560
It's an inconvenience to switch from whatever, Solana to whatever, Binance Smart
Chain.

285
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:30,240
Take your pick.

286
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,280
And so it's just not worth the nine cents to save nine cents on every transaction.

287
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:41,840
So that would be worth, you know, I don't know how much it would be worth, but it's

288
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:48,800
that would be worth 10 cents on 2.2 trillion is $220 billion in revenue every year.

289
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,760
So that is the pile of money available.

290
00:23:52,400 --> 00:24:01,280
If it goes completely to the LSPs, but not to the L1 miners, this will lead to
either

291
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,800
conflict or vertical integration.

292
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:08,320
The miners will say, wait a minute, you're getting $222 billion with a B every year.

293
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,440
And then it's going to, of course, it will be $440 billion in five years.

294
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,000
So they'll just think, wait a minute, I don't like that.

295
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000
So they will either, they will basically start their own LSPs that only they
support.

296
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:27,120
But once they have the LSPs, it will be, it's pointless to actually use Lightning in
that

297
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:27,680
case.

298
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,320
It's because the justice transactions don't do anything.

299
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,160
So that's why the ones that do not pay the fee to miners are doomed.

300
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,080
They will all, miners must get the fee.

301
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,560
And if they don't, then the miners will take the fee in some, via this vertical
integration

302
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,320
or conflict.

303
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,040
So if it doesn't pay to the miners, I think it's just broken.

304
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:52,640
Okay.

305
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:58,160
Before we move on to the next argument, I have to present tonight's sponsor, who is

306
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307
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308
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309
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310
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311
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312
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You also have a buy anything button, which basically is an interface for
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313
00:25:19,612 --> 00:25:23,612
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314
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315
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You can order stuff using the Wasabi Wallet interface.

316
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317
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which have at least 150 inputs and 150 outputs.

318
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CoinJoin before that.

319
00:25:46,612 --> 00:25:50,612
If you receive donations, just like I do sometimes, not as much anymore,

320
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but I still receive donations.

321
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It's a good idea to mix your coins so that when you use them,

322
00:25:57,612 --> 00:26:00,612
you don't get the identity of whoever donated them to you.

323
00:26:00,612 --> 00:26:05,612
I mean, I might as well receive donations from the Binance hacker or whatever.

324
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325
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326
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327
00:26:18,612 --> 00:26:20,612
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328
00:26:20,612 --> 00:26:25,612
So, Paul, let's talk about something which is very fashionable nowadays,

329
00:26:25,612 --> 00:26:27,612
something which is super debated,

330
00:26:27,612 --> 00:26:33,612
something which seems to basically be the subject of the next soft fork for Bitcoin,

331
00:26:33,612 --> 00:26:35,612
and that's covenants.

332
00:26:35,612 --> 00:26:37,612
First of all, what are covenants?

333
00:26:37,612 --> 00:26:41,612
And then we can dive into the various types of covenants.

334
00:26:42,612 --> 00:26:46,612
The detail of a covenant is that it is a special transit transaction

335
00:26:46,612 --> 00:26:50,612
where when you receive money, you say,

336
00:26:50,612 --> 00:26:53,612
lock this money to the script controlled by me.

337
00:26:53,612 --> 00:26:57,612
I'm just talking normally, pre-covenant.

338
00:26:57,612 --> 00:27:01,612
You say, for a normal Bitcoin transaction on-chain,

339
00:27:01,612 --> 00:27:04,612
someone says, I'll give you some Bitcoin.

340
00:27:04,612 --> 00:27:09,612
You say, OK, you make a receiving address, make a little QR code,

341
00:27:09,612 --> 00:27:12,612
and it's locked to a thing that says,

342
00:27:12,612 --> 00:27:16,612
if I can produce a signature that signs for this public key,

343
00:27:16,612 --> 00:27:20,612
then the funds are unlocked.

344
00:27:20,612 --> 00:27:22,612
That's how it normally works.

345
00:27:22,612 --> 00:27:28,612
The covenant says, I will constrain myself when I send money.

346
00:27:28,612 --> 00:27:33,612
The money that I put into this, the money I received to this address,

347
00:27:33,612 --> 00:27:36,612
the money I put into my wallet,

348
00:27:36,612 --> 00:27:39,612
I can only spend it a certain way.

349
00:27:39,612 --> 00:27:43,612
That is, in a nutshell, what it is.

350
00:27:43,612 --> 00:27:46,612
That's the short version.

351
00:27:46,612 --> 00:27:49,612
So it says, for example, you could say something like,

352
00:27:49,612 --> 00:27:55,612
I will take this money, and I will only give it to whatever,

353
00:27:55,612 --> 00:28:01,612
Vlad, WasabiWallet, and IVPN.

354
00:28:01,612 --> 00:28:04,612
I don't know how much I'm going to give them, but I have to give,

355
00:28:04,612 --> 00:28:05,612
this is a hypothetical example.

356
00:28:05,612 --> 00:28:10,612
You say, I have to give it to them, and a little bit for the fee.

357
00:28:10,612 --> 00:28:17,612
So I have to give it to these three, and I can only send it there.

358
00:28:17,612 --> 00:28:21,612
So it was originally, one joke name that it was called many years ago

359
00:28:21,612 --> 00:28:25,612
was the checks in the mail, or check the mail, I think, even,

360
00:28:25,612 --> 00:28:29,612
was part of it.

361
00:28:29,612 --> 00:28:33,612
It's like, you haven't received the money yet, but you will.

362
00:28:34,612 --> 00:28:38,612
For Jeremy's thing, the idea was that you would actually

363
00:28:38,612 --> 00:28:42,612
denote the exact transaction itself.

364
00:28:42,612 --> 00:28:47,612
So you'd say something like, I will pay these five people

365
00:28:47,612 --> 00:28:49,612
this exact amount.

366
00:28:49,612 --> 00:28:52,612
I will pay exactly this, just not yet.

367
00:28:52,612 --> 00:28:58,612
First, I'll pay to the hash of that transaction ID,

368
00:28:58,612 --> 00:29:01,612
maybe because the fees are really unusually high today.

369
00:29:01,612 --> 00:29:08,612
So instead of paying to this big list, you pay only to a tiny hash.

370
00:29:12,612 --> 00:29:16,612
So then you do that, and then that transaction can only be

371
00:29:16,612 --> 00:29:18,612
spent further.

372
00:29:18,612 --> 00:29:24,612
So it's kind of like the, that is already kind of like an L2,

373
00:29:24,612 --> 00:29:28,612
because you know that with very likelihood, as soon as this transaction

374
00:29:28,612 --> 00:29:33,612
is included in a block, at some point, you will get whatever it is,

375
00:29:33,612 --> 00:29:35,612
5BTC.

376
00:29:35,612 --> 00:29:40,612
It's pre-specified.

377
00:29:40,612 --> 00:29:44,612
Okay, you are very specific, and your explanation was basically

378
00:29:44,612 --> 00:29:48,612
for insiders who already know about this stuff.

379
00:29:48,612 --> 00:29:54,612
Jeremy's thing is OP_CTV, check template verify.

380
00:29:54,612 --> 00:29:56,612
Is that what it stands for?

381
00:29:56,612 --> 00:30:00,612
His original motivation, like the congestion control,

382
00:30:00,612 --> 00:30:03,612
that was like his original, one of his original use cases.

383
00:30:03,612 --> 00:30:06,612
And then vaults were also one.

384
00:30:06,612 --> 00:30:08,612
Vaults are big.

385
00:30:08,612 --> 00:30:10,612
I think vaults are very important.

386
00:30:10,612 --> 00:30:14,612
Jamison Lobb maintains this database of people who have had like

387
00:30:14,612 --> 00:30:20,612
violent criminals break into their house and like just, you know,

388
00:30:20,612 --> 00:30:24,612
like take their Bitcoin, basically.

389
00:30:25,612 --> 00:30:30,612
But the vaults are set up so that you take your own money and you say,

390
00:30:30,612 --> 00:30:38,612
you know, I put a spell on this money where only 1% of it can be removed

391
00:30:38,612 --> 00:30:42,612
each month or something.

392
00:30:42,612 --> 00:30:48,612
Unless if you want to withdraw all of it, it goes to this holding location,

393
00:30:48,612 --> 00:30:52,612
and then like it waits there for like 10 days,

394
00:30:52,612 --> 00:30:57,612
and then it either goes to the new destination or with a second key,

395
00:30:57,612 --> 00:31:02,612
a second different private key, you can move it back to the vault.

396
00:31:02,612 --> 00:31:07,612
So it's kind of like if you do anything with a lot of money,

397
00:31:07,612 --> 00:31:11,612
the bank will call you and start asking you all kinds of questions like,

398
00:31:11,612 --> 00:31:13,612
what's this money for?

399
00:31:13,612 --> 00:31:15,612
Are you being held at gunpoint?

400
00:31:15,612 --> 00:31:17,612
Should we call the police?

401
00:31:17,612 --> 00:31:19,612
Stuff like that.

402
00:31:19,612 --> 00:31:23,612
So you intentionally put it into – you intentionally constrain where the

403
00:31:23,612 --> 00:31:25,612
money can go for your own benefit.

404
00:31:25,612 --> 00:31:31,612
This has a big game theoretic implication because of something called

405
00:31:31,612 --> 00:31:32,612
mechanism design.

406
00:31:32,612 --> 00:31:37,612
But it's like you can constrain how – if you want to join at all the scheme,

407
00:31:37,612 --> 00:31:41,612
it's set up in a very constrained way.

408
00:31:41,612 --> 00:31:44,612
So then you have a lot of flexibility in the design.

409
00:31:44,612 --> 00:31:45,612
I don't know.

410
00:31:45,612 --> 00:31:48,612
I hope this makes some sense to someone.

411
00:31:48,612 --> 00:31:49,612
Is this terrible?

412
00:31:49,612 --> 00:31:50,612
Is this really a terrible explanation?

413
00:31:50,612 --> 00:31:55,612
Covenants mean that when you spend the money that you have in the covenant,

414
00:31:55,612 --> 00:31:57,612
it has to be spent a certain way.

415
00:31:57,612 --> 00:31:58,612
You have to behave.

416
00:31:58,612 --> 00:32:02,612
You're putting yourself on notice.

417
00:32:02,612 --> 00:32:06,612
You have to have good behavior or the money will be whatever.

418
00:32:06,612 --> 00:32:08,612
It can only be spent a certain way.

419
00:32:08,612 --> 00:32:09,612
But the constraint is good.

420
00:32:09,612 --> 00:32:12,612
It's like a contract on yourself.

421
00:32:12,612 --> 00:32:16,612
Yeah, but why do people promote covenants for purposes?

422
00:32:16,612 --> 00:32:17,612
Well, they don't know any better.

423
00:32:17,612 --> 00:32:19,612
They just repeat what they hear on Twitter.

424
00:32:19,612 --> 00:32:20,612
They have no idea.

425
00:32:20,612 --> 00:32:22,612
They saw it's a trending topic.

426
00:32:22,612 --> 00:32:25,612
They just make up some fake opinion about it.

427
00:32:25,612 --> 00:32:27,612
I mean I haven't even finished my question,

428
00:32:27,612 --> 00:32:30,612
but I guess you assumed I was going to say something just like,

429
00:32:30,612 --> 00:32:35,612
I remember when Taproot got activated that people were super excited saying,

430
00:32:35,612 --> 00:32:37,612
oh, Bitcoin finally has smart contracts.

431
00:32:37,612 --> 00:32:38,612
Yeah, exactly.

432
00:32:38,612 --> 00:32:42,612
Oh, we have Schnorr signatures now.

433
00:32:42,612 --> 00:32:46,612
Yeah, exactly.

434
00:32:46,612 --> 00:32:47,612
By the way,

435
00:32:47,612 --> 00:32:50,612
some people promote covenants for the purpose of saying that we're going to

436
00:32:50,612 --> 00:32:54,612
scale better and it's going to help the Lightning Network and it's going to

437
00:32:54,612 --> 00:32:59,612
help stuff like BitVM do more complex operations.

438
00:32:59,612 --> 00:33:00,612
And what else?

439
00:33:00,612 --> 00:33:01,612
It certainly helps ARK.

440
00:33:01,612 --> 00:33:03,612
ARK cannot, basically cannot.

441
00:33:03,612 --> 00:33:09,612
It exists in a very, very hacky form without,

442
00:33:09,612 --> 00:33:13,612
actually I think Moon Settler posted about that it can't exist at all without

443
00:33:13,612 --> 00:33:15,612
CTV or something like it.

444
00:33:15,612 --> 00:33:20,612
CTV is of course not,

445
00:33:20,612 --> 00:33:26,612
Jeremy Rubin wrote CTV to be very limited on purpose.

446
00:33:26,612 --> 00:33:27,612
It limited the scope.

447
00:33:27,612 --> 00:33:29,612
But now that people have decided,

448
00:33:29,612 --> 00:33:35,612
now that he trailblazed and did all the work to make it good,

449
00:33:35,612 --> 00:33:39,612
everyone has decided, by everyone I mean like three people,

450
00:33:39,612 --> 00:33:46,612
has decided that they want the more expressive TX hash.

451
00:33:46,612 --> 00:33:48,612
Okay, who are the three people?

452
00:33:48,612 --> 00:33:49,612
I don't know.

453
00:33:49,612 --> 00:33:55,612
Like I guess probably,

454
00:33:55,612 --> 00:33:58,612
what is it, Stephen Roos or whatever?

455
00:33:58,612 --> 00:34:00,612
Or Rose, I don't know how to pronounce.

456
00:34:00,612 --> 00:34:02,612
Do you know how to pronounce Flemish names?

457
00:34:02,612 --> 00:34:04,612
What is R-O-O-S-E in that?

458
00:34:04,612 --> 00:34:05,612
I don't know.

459
00:34:05,612 --> 00:34:07,612
But he, presumably him.

460
00:34:07,612 --> 00:34:14,612
Presumably I would guess that Robin Linus and Barack from Ark.

461
00:34:14,612 --> 00:34:16,612
Can we just start calling him Barack Obama?

462
00:34:16,612 --> 00:34:18,612
I mean that is definitely the funnier thing.

463
00:34:18,612 --> 00:34:21,612
Can you just take that as his name?

464
00:34:21,612 --> 00:34:24,612
Because how cool is that really?

465
00:34:24,612 --> 00:34:29,612
Those are the only two times in my entire life I've heard that name used.

466
00:34:29,612 --> 00:34:31,612
It's actually Burak in Turkish.

467
00:34:31,612 --> 00:34:36,612
So you're pronouncing it as Burak because it's convenient for you as an American.

468
00:34:36,612 --> 00:34:37,612
Burak.

469
00:34:37,612 --> 00:34:40,612
That sounds very Turkish.

470
00:34:40,612 --> 00:34:43,612
He is Turkish.

471
00:34:43,612 --> 00:34:47,612
Yes, we discussed that at one point.

472
00:34:47,612 --> 00:34:50,612
But you are right about Robin Linus.

473
00:34:50,612 --> 00:34:53,612
He was here on the Bitcoin Takeover podcast and he did mention.

474
00:34:53,612 --> 00:34:54,612
He said TX hash.

475
00:34:54,612 --> 00:34:56,612
Yeah.

476
00:34:56,612 --> 00:35:00,612
Actually I interviewed him before he changed his mind.

477
00:35:00,612 --> 00:35:03,612
At the time he was UpCTV.

478
00:35:03,612 --> 00:35:08,612
I think now he's on the side of UpCat and it's even more confusing.

479
00:35:08,612 --> 00:35:14,612
UpCat is an up code that Satoshi wrote and disabled at some point.

480
00:35:14,612 --> 00:35:22,612
It was disabled in a kind of emergency panic mode.

481
00:35:22,612 --> 00:35:25,612
Because people were worried about what it was.

482
00:35:25,612 --> 00:35:26,612
I don't know.

483
00:35:26,612 --> 00:35:31,612
The script interpreter was a little too powerful.

484
00:35:31,612 --> 00:35:36,612
So it was tightened down and a lot of stuff was disabled.

485
00:35:36,612 --> 00:35:44,612
If I'm remembering correctly, there was this theoretical concern about an
exponentially increasing amount of items on the stack or something.

486
00:35:44,612 --> 00:35:47,612
The stack size.

487
00:35:47,612 --> 00:35:58,612
The total stack size is or was already limited or has now been limited again with
TabScript.

488
00:35:58,612 --> 00:35:59,612
I think.

489
00:35:59,612 --> 00:36:02,612
Although these details are not easy to get perfect.

490
00:36:02,612 --> 00:36:09,612
So basically these, I don't know, people just kind of thought that UpCat.

491
00:36:09,612 --> 00:36:13,612
I mean, UpCat just concatenates two stack items.

492
00:36:13,612 --> 00:36:22,612
And the weird thing is we have other up codes that are like you can sandwich two
things together or like make weird shapes.

493
00:36:22,612 --> 00:36:25,612
But you cannot just combine two things.

494
00:36:25,612 --> 00:36:26,612
So we do.

495
00:36:26,612 --> 00:36:28,612
We have so many weird.

496
00:36:28,612 --> 00:36:31,612
I think UpCat is I've said this on Twitter.

497
00:36:31,612 --> 00:36:44,612
I think it's like a canary in the coal mine of like how risk averse are the people
running github.com slash Bitcoin slash Bitcoin.

498
00:36:44,612 --> 00:36:49,612
And does it actually extend this far to blocking UpCat?

499
00:36:49,612 --> 00:36:56,612
If it does, it will just prove that we are doomed, I think.

500
00:36:56,612 --> 00:37:04,612
Well, there's a twist to all of this situation because you have liquid, which
enabled UpCat.

501
00:37:04,612 --> 00:37:08,612
And not only that, but they're inviting Burak.

502
00:37:08,612 --> 00:37:13,612
They're also inviting Burak to build his arc on top of liquid.

503
00:37:13,612 --> 00:37:18,612
And it seems like the first proof of concept of arc is going to be built on liquid.

504
00:37:18,612 --> 00:37:22,612
So it almost seems like these people are against something.

505
00:37:22,612 --> 00:37:28,612
But at the same time, they activated under federation because they want to stay
competitive and invite some.

506
00:37:28,612 --> 00:37:32,612
A lot of that is just like can Blockstream take credit for it?

507
00:37:32,612 --> 00:37:37,612
Because they raised all this money and they have very little to show for it.

508
00:37:37,612 --> 00:37:45,612
And and I think they just the whole thing is just like.

509
00:37:45,612 --> 00:37:47,612
I don't know how else you would explain it.

510
00:37:47,612 --> 00:37:51,612
How do you explain it that this first of all, I just poured this, so I'm having
this.

511
00:37:51,612 --> 00:37:54,612
You have to have one with me.

512
00:37:54,612 --> 00:37:56,612
Oh, that's a large shot, Paul.

513
00:37:56,612 --> 00:37:59,612
It's big. It's huge.

514
00:37:59,612 --> 00:38:01,612
So what's the purpose of drinking?

515
00:38:01,612 --> 00:38:05,612
Are you preemptively drinking because you're going to drop the D word?

516
00:38:05,612 --> 00:38:08,612
No, no, no. I just think.

517
00:38:08,612 --> 00:38:11,612
It's Chekhov's gun. We have to have at least one.

518
00:38:11,612 --> 00:38:13,612
I've been concentrating. I haven't brought it up once.

519
00:38:13,612 --> 00:38:18,612
I haven't. Things have been I've been doing really well.

520
00:38:18,612 --> 00:38:21,612
You've been quite nice tonight.

521
00:38:21,612 --> 00:38:27,612
You haven't tried to persuade me into talking about stuff that LayerTwo Labs does.

522
00:38:27,612 --> 00:38:36,612
But I also need to ask you, do you plan for LayerTwo Labs to focus on something
else other than sidechains?

523
00:38:37,612 --> 00:38:41,612
I think the answer is yes.

524
00:38:41,612 --> 00:38:47,612
But not in the short term.

525
00:38:47,612 --> 00:38:51,612
If you're going to have the drink, let's say cheers.

526
00:38:51,612 --> 00:38:58,612
I made a sound for the microphone so people listening on Spotify later can also get
a feel of what we're doing.

527
00:38:58,612 --> 00:39:00,612
Get the ASMR.

528
00:39:00,612 --> 00:39:02,612
I'm drinking vodka, by the way.

529
00:39:02,612 --> 00:39:05,612
I'm not sure what you're having.

530
00:39:05,612 --> 00:39:12,612
It's vodka. I got my chaser, you know, because I just like a nice cold glass of
water.

531
00:39:12,612 --> 00:39:21,612
You're going to have. Can't be that.

532
00:39:21,612 --> 00:39:24,612
What are we talking about? TX hash?

533
00:39:25,612 --> 00:39:27,612
Labs. I think.

534
00:39:27,612 --> 00:39:36,612
OK, but I just told you moments ago that I perceive an enormous problem with any
layer two that does not pass the fees down to the miner.

535
00:39:36,612 --> 00:39:48,612
So I think all most of the ones that are currently popular, which was just to say,
you know, like a tiny amount of Bitcoin, like less than 5000 Bitcoin.

536
00:39:48,612 --> 00:39:52,612
Those are all just seem doomed to me.

537
00:39:52,612 --> 00:39:55,612
So I'm not I'm not interested in those.

538
00:39:55,612 --> 00:39:57,612
There are other types of things that do interest me.

539
00:39:57,612 --> 00:40:02,612
For example, the idea of there being physical layer two, like the open dime layer
two.

540
00:40:02,612 --> 00:40:05,612
And I don't endorse open open time specifically.

541
00:40:05,612 --> 00:40:08,612
I'm just saying as an idea of just.

542
00:40:08,612 --> 00:40:12,612
We should be endorsing Sato dime because this is open source.

543
00:40:12,612 --> 00:40:15,612
Yes. And they're sponsoring the show, by the way.

544
00:40:16,612 --> 00:40:18,612
So it's a real. Yeah.

545
00:40:18,612 --> 00:40:24,612
So it's not that whatever source code available or whatever, whatever that means.

546
00:40:24,612 --> 00:40:31,612
No, it's open source, but they use the smart card technology, which is not 100
percent observable.

547
00:40:31,612 --> 00:40:33,612
But at the same time, it's pretty cool.

548
00:40:33,612 --> 00:40:35,612
You can put your papers on it.

549
00:40:35,612 --> 00:40:37,612
You can put your Bitcoin on it.

550
00:40:37,612 --> 00:40:42,612
And then you can gift it to someone physically and you bypass the high fees on the
main chain.

551
00:40:42,612 --> 00:40:46,612
So check out SatoDime.io.

552
00:40:46,612 --> 00:40:47,612
SatoChip.io.

553
00:40:47,612 --> 00:40:51,612
And then you have the card and it's not transparent.

554
00:40:51,612 --> 00:40:55,612
But it's like if you want to be transparent and you say, OK, we'll add we'll add a
screen.

555
00:40:55,612 --> 00:40:57,612
And then you're like, we'll add a keyboard.

556
00:40:57,612 --> 00:41:03,612
And then eventually you just end up with like a whole laptop, you know, and you're
just kind of like, OK, we'll add an operating system.

557
00:41:03,612 --> 00:41:05,612
It's like, you know what I mean?

558
00:41:05,612 --> 00:41:10,612
Like where. So I kind of think it's a good smart thing to just.

559
00:41:11,612 --> 00:41:15,612
I think this one has NFC, so you can tap it on the back of your phone.

560
00:41:15,612 --> 00:41:18,612
It's so great. Like, you know, the NFC is great.

561
00:41:18,612 --> 00:41:21,612
And, you know, you can buy a bunch of blank cards and experiment with this.

562
00:41:21,612 --> 00:41:25,612
I didn't know this. Every phone can program the cards.

563
00:41:25,612 --> 00:41:31,612
You can go on Amazon like one dollar blank cards and you can have like those like
little apps that you can just edit them.

564
00:41:31,612 --> 00:41:34,612
And, you know, presumably.

565
00:41:34,612 --> 00:41:38,612
This is related to what SatoChip has done.

566
00:41:38,612 --> 00:41:49,612
But I'm just saying that the card, the tap thing is great because the tap is a very
good like it's a very good way of paying for something because it kind of represents
consent.

567
00:41:49,612 --> 00:41:56,612
It's it's not ambiguous like you don't just take out your wallet and start tapping
on things.

568
00:41:56,612 --> 00:41:59,612
And so it's fast and it's convenient and it's very good.

569
00:41:59,612 --> 00:42:04,612
I think that's a very good on the. The frontier of possibilities.

570
00:42:04,612 --> 00:42:08,612
I think that is a winning. It's a winning one.

571
00:42:08,612 --> 00:42:17,612
I think we're sort of losing this battle and I'm changing the topic a bit, but we
used to say, oh, no, these cards are for bankers.

572
00:42:17,612 --> 00:42:25,612
You know, we're going to scan QR codes and now it seems like QR codes are associated
with green passes from the covid era.

573
00:42:25,612 --> 00:42:32,612
So, yeah, Venmo or WeChat pay or something.

574
00:42:32,612 --> 00:42:39,612
Yeah, it could be. I think Bitcoin did that before it was cool and then it no longer
became cool.

575
00:42:39,612 --> 00:42:46,612
And now we ended up co-opting this tapping mechanism with NFC technology.

576
00:42:46,612 --> 00:42:51,612
I think it's fine either way. I think the I honestly just think the tapping is
better.

577
00:42:51,612 --> 00:42:57,612
I mean, when you think about it, you have to take out your phone, which in your
phone is trying to distract you all the time.

578
00:42:57,612 --> 00:43:01,612
Which is so annoying. You know, the phone, it's like whatever.

579
00:43:01,612 --> 00:43:05,612
It's like whatever the ring of power or something, you know, it's like trying to
brainwash you all the time.

580
00:43:05,612 --> 00:43:08,612
You got to like not look at it and you got to take it out.

581
00:43:08,612 --> 00:43:13,612
You got to click, open it, do your thing to unlock it, find the app, do the thing.

582
00:43:13,612 --> 00:43:19,612
OK, wait for the camera to activate, because it always takes like a little second to
power up, you know.

583
00:43:19,612 --> 00:43:24,612
And then you got to hold it over the queue. When you say you could just just take it
out and tap.

584
00:43:24,612 --> 00:43:29,612
It's way better, I think. This is just my thought.

585
00:43:29,612 --> 00:43:36,612
Yeah, I think tapping is against the spirit of don't trust verify because you're not
seeing where the payment is going.

586
00:43:36,612 --> 00:43:44,612
You're not seeing how much of it you're paying. You're relying on the counterparty,
to be honest with you, with everything.

587
00:43:44,612 --> 00:43:50,612
And then maybe you get a receipt and by the time you get the receipt, it's already
too late.

588
00:43:50,612 --> 00:43:59,612
You could preload the card. You could say like the card is only allowed to spend.

589
00:43:59,612 --> 00:44:06,612
$20, you put $20 worth of Bitcoin on the card and then you or whatever you tap it or
something.

590
00:44:06,612 --> 00:44:11,612
I don't know. I think I think you're right. But I think the problem is, OK, this is
what I say.

591
00:44:11,612 --> 00:44:20,612
You end up with a lap. You end up building a laptop because you say, OK, we'll put a
screen in and we'll say the hardware device will show me how much money is being
paid.

592
00:44:20,612 --> 00:44:27,612
And then you're like, OK, it'll show me the signature and you're like, OK, I'll have
a signature checking thing in here.

593
00:44:27,612 --> 00:44:36,612
I have have Sparrow wallet. Running on this thing and then then it was not Sparrow.

594
00:44:36,612 --> 00:44:43,612
OK, great. Wasabi, you know, I don't know. I've never used Wasabi, but I've heard
they care about privacy.

595
00:44:43,612 --> 00:44:50,612
Why does why does Samurai and Wasabi, why do they hate each other?

596
00:44:50,612 --> 00:44:55,612
Actually, Wasabi doesn't hate Samurai. It's Samurai that uses this marketing.

597
00:44:55,612 --> 00:45:00,612
They realize that they get a lot more engagement if they attack their competition.

598
00:45:00,612 --> 00:45:08,612
So it's like this. It's a pretty zero sum game where they're trying to one up each
other.

599
00:45:08,612 --> 00:45:13,612
But I think that to Samurai's credit, they actually helped Wasabi improve.

600
00:45:13,612 --> 00:45:17,612
They provided some useful feedback just by attacking it constantly.

601
00:45:17,612 --> 00:45:23,612
And they actually got better. But in the case of Samurai, they are lazy to attack.

602
00:45:24,612 --> 00:45:33,612
So whenever someone points out to their flaws, they're like, no, it's not true. No,
it doesn't work like that. You're an idiot, blah, blah, blah.

603
00:45:33,612 --> 00:45:42,612
They're playing this whole psychological game and they have their own telegram chats
and signal chats and echo chambers where.

604
00:45:42,612 --> 00:45:51,612
Everyone who asks questions like newbies who come along, they're called idiots and
they're like, it's like Fight Club, you know, it's a cult.

605
00:45:52,612 --> 00:45:58,612
Well, I mean, you know, that's plenty of people do that. Plenty of people become
frustrated with it.

606
00:45:58,612 --> 00:46:09,612
You know, and there's, you know, the concept of whatever eternal September and like
lurking, you know, like you're supposed to lurk and absorb the norms of the group of
the tribe, you know.

607
00:46:10,612 --> 00:46:19,612
And then I mean, in this course, Samurai appears to be more cypherpunk and more
careless.

608
00:46:20,612 --> 00:46:26,612
But it also got VC funding and the two creators docked themselves for some VC
funding.

609
00:46:26,612 --> 00:46:28,612
And now they claim that they're anonymous.

610
00:46:28,612 --> 00:46:34,612
But there is a Coindesk article which clearly states their names and how much money
they got from a VC firm.

611
00:46:35,612 --> 00:46:36,612
But which VC firm?

612
00:46:38,612 --> 00:46:39,612
Cypherpunk Holdings.

613
00:46:40,612 --> 00:46:42,612
Well, that sounds like it's got a great name.

614
00:46:43,612 --> 00:46:47,612
It does. It's a publicly listed company from Canada.

615
00:46:47,612 --> 00:46:52,612
You would think that something like that would maybe they, you know, I don't know,
maybe they're fake names or something.

616
00:46:53,612 --> 00:47:04,612
And Samurai also has a counterparty token because they believed in this vision of a
decentralized company and all their investors are holding these tokens.

617
00:47:04,612 --> 00:47:06,612
That's kind of cool, though. That's not so bad.

618
00:47:06,612 --> 00:47:08,612
I don't think that type of thing is so bad.

619
00:47:08,612 --> 00:47:10,612
Like I think if what you say is.

620
00:47:13,612 --> 00:47:15,612
This is like something that totally exists.

621
00:47:16,612 --> 00:47:17,612
This is like a.

622
00:47:19,612 --> 00:47:22,612
Shares of a Delaware Sea Corporation.

623
00:47:23,612 --> 00:47:27,612
Except that it is on the Bitcoin blockchain and it pays Bitcoin transaction fees.

624
00:47:28,612 --> 00:47:30,612
Then that doesn't sound so bad to me.

625
00:47:32,612 --> 00:47:33,612
I think that's normal.

626
00:47:33,612 --> 00:47:39,612
I think that this I think blockchains will be used for this, even though I think
blockchains are way, you know.

627
00:47:40,612 --> 00:47:42,612
But I think that that actually that that will happen.

628
00:47:45,612 --> 00:47:49,612
OK, I'm not sure if we finished our conversation about covenants.

629
00:47:50,612 --> 00:47:54,612
Do you have any proposal that you prefer, prefer or think is.

630
00:47:55,612 --> 00:47:57,612
The problem is we should do them all.

631
00:47:57,612 --> 00:48:03,612
I think in a way, OP_CAT most clearly highlights the dysfunction of the system.

632
00:48:04,612 --> 00:48:08,612
And the fear that the existing people have of of touching activation.

633
00:48:09,612 --> 00:48:13,612
And it is this irrational fear that is caused will cause horrible problems.

634
00:48:14,612 --> 00:48:20,612
Has caused already tremendous damage to Bitcoin and will continue to cause and may
even kill the project.

635
00:48:20,612 --> 00:48:25,612
So OP_CAT is the will sound of the alarm the most when it.

636
00:48:26,612 --> 00:48:33,612
Why, you know, why don't we even have we should have things like probably the best
one, the most useful one would be one with the most novelty.

637
00:48:34,612 --> 00:48:42,612
So that would be like one that is like, I don't know exactly what you would call it,
but it was something like, does this UTXO exists in the UTXO set at this time?

638
00:48:43,612 --> 00:48:44,612
Like, yes or no opcode.

639
00:48:44,612 --> 00:48:48,612
I don't know. I don't remember what that that has a name, but I don't know what it
is, but it's not one of the.

640
00:48:49,612 --> 00:48:54,612
That one would be the best for like that would give like arc like the golden gun or
something.

641
00:48:55,612 --> 00:48:58,612
It would just be able to like shoot through these problems that it has.

642
00:49:00,612 --> 00:49:04,612
I don't even think you would need I guess you would not need the arc is confusing.

643
00:49:05,612 --> 00:49:09,612
So that you would need like I think you don't need to connect or transactions or.

644
00:49:09,612 --> 00:49:16,612
I don't know, they take some other form or something, but so that would be kind of
cool, but that is someone that nothing no one has heard of that.

645
00:49:17,612 --> 00:49:20,612
CTV has been one that has been like actually.

646
00:49:21,612 --> 00:49:25,612
People have tried to activate it, so it has the highest activation energy.

647
00:49:26,612 --> 00:49:33,612
Going in to it and in that way, it's sort of like first in line and in that way,
it's better.

648
00:49:33,612 --> 00:49:34,612
The fact that Jeremy made it.

649
00:49:36,612 --> 00:49:39,612
Less powerful because people had all these fake concerns.

650
00:49:40,612 --> 00:49:49,612
He was too nice of a guy or something, and he he made it slightly less powerful to
to to more clearly demonstrate that it was harmless.

651
00:49:54,612 --> 00:49:55,612
Anyway.

652
00:49:55,612 --> 00:49:57,612
Anyway.

653
00:49:58,955 --> 00:50:09,435
Anyway, to more clearly demonstrate that it was harmless and so then the as a
result, what happened was that you have this situation where TX hash is more
powerful.

654
00:50:09,435 --> 00:50:16,595
I mean, I understand what you're saying.

655
00:50:16,595 --> 00:50:35,195
And it also seems a bit conspirational, you know, in the sense that you're almost
saying that unless a BIP is presented by a black string researcher, it's not going
to be good enough to reach consensus, I think even now they can't even now they
can't do it. They have created a Frankenstein's monster.

656
00:50:35,355 --> 00:50:46,075
And now maybe no one can get anything through. The problem is just that it's not a
meritocracy at all. If it were a meritocracy, they all of them would have activated
by now.

657
00:50:46,075 --> 00:50:51,195
What's the point, though? Because some of them fulfill the same function.

658
00:50:52,195 --> 00:51:09,035
But but it's not it's like the question should be, does it serve a point? Might it
serve a point to someone and doesn't do no harm like we should that that's the
criterion for every other pull request that is merged, the ones that are not soft
forks.

659
00:51:09,035 --> 00:51:20,035
But the distinction between soft fork and non soft fork, it should just be abandoned
at this point, it should just be the same consideration as any other thing like this
to make the code too difficult to maintain.

660
00:51:22,915 --> 00:51:27,115
Okay, for OP_CAT, that's obviously not the case that has no has no effect.

661
00:51:27,115 --> 00:51:49,115
I think super test net made this point that she said it more offensively, a bit. She
was like, I bet you didn't think about four megabyte blocks when you activated
SegWit plebs. As in, there are always these side effects that happen. When we
activated SegWit, we were told that.

662
00:51:49,115 --> 00:52:04,115
That's not a side effect, though. No. And I have also said that, as you know, I have
also I say that loud and proud. I say no one, the people who support SegWit, they
didn't know that it was a block size increase.

663
00:52:04,115 --> 00:52:07,115
Yeah, exactly. It was presented as a fix for the malleability bug.

664
00:52:07,115 --> 00:52:21,115
Expert people did know. Everyone did know. I mean, everyone, most of the people I
knew did know, but most other people who support SegWit don't know. So they don't
know. The detractors who hated SegWit, they didn't know anything about it. The
supporters didn't know anything about it.

665
00:52:21,115 --> 00:52:42,115
But that was not a side effect. I mean, I guess the plebs didn't. So if he's talking
about the plebs, he's right, I suppose. I'm not sure exactly what he means by that.
But I would interpret that to mean most people don't know what they're talking about
for or against a bip. So you should just you should just ignore them because they
don't they don't know anything.

666
00:52:43,115 --> 00:52:50,115
You know, it's like it would be like talking to whatever, a dog or something about a
bip.

667
00:52:50,115 --> 00:52:53,115
I mean, that's super elitistic and offensive.

668
00:52:53,115 --> 00:53:02,115
I wish it weren't true. I wish that it were not the case. But it is. But you were
saying yourself about Taproot. Oh, we have smart contracts now.

669
00:53:02,115 --> 00:53:29,115
Yeah, so we have been told I was a pleb at the time in 2017. I wasn't even running a
node. I was just reading news on Bitcoin.com feeling confused. But basically, I
remember at the time that it was said that SegWit was good to activate the lightning
network. And that was the point of it and to fix the malleability issue, which I did
not really understand. And I was like, oh, this is interesting.

670
00:53:29,115 --> 00:53:46,115
It was not promoted as a block size increase. And then Taproot was presented as this
way to bring more privacy to multisigs. And people were like, yeah, of course it
does that. And people were like, oh, yeah, it does smart contracts now.

671
00:53:46,115 --> 00:54:06,115
And Bitcoin is going to have smart contracts and Schnorr signatures because Schnorr
signatures have been part of the debate for longer than a decade. And it seemed
easier to accept something if it involved Schnorr signatures. But we didn't get all
of the Schnorr package. We just got a small dose of Schnorr.

672
00:54:07,115 --> 00:54:11,115
And we have no cross input signature aggregation, which was...

673
00:54:11,115 --> 00:54:13,115
And that's another BIP that's being proposed.

674
00:54:13,115 --> 00:54:14,115
Yeah.

675
00:54:14,115 --> 00:54:18,115
Chisa or CISA, whatever you call it.

676
00:54:19,115 --> 00:54:42,115
The problem is, I mean, it's just all of it's kind of irrational. But I don't know.
Did you want to nail me down on one particular question? Like, which one do I
support? Like, which one? I mean, I support them all, really. But which one should
activate? I guess I'd probably just say CTV because it has been active in the
process for more.

677
00:54:43,115 --> 00:54:49,115
But now the big CTV people have switched to LNHance. So now I don't know. Seems
like...

678
00:54:49,115 --> 00:55:13,115
What I think should happen, to be really honest with you, is the one issue is that
the miners, they know even less than people who participate on Twitter, because in
many cases, a miner who is a hasher, they're kind of a lot like the power company
where they hash and they get paid money and they don't even think about what's
happening.

679
00:55:14,115 --> 00:55:19,115
And just like the power company, they make power, they sell it to miners, they don't
know anything about Bitcoin.

680
00:55:20,115 --> 00:55:35,115
But the hashers should all meet at some conference, some mining conference, and
decide that they can earn much more money if they educate themselves about soft
forks and they should form some kind of council.

681
00:55:35,115 --> 00:55:46,115
However they think best, they could delegate this task to the pools if they wish,
and the people should just meet like twice a year to educate themselves about these
matters.

682
00:55:47,115 --> 00:56:01,115
And then they should notice that no one is taking responsibility for activation.
Activation is languishing. Miners can unilaterally activate with 51% hash upgrading.

683
00:56:02,115 --> 00:56:11,115
If they upgrade and then they put out the version that they run as a backwards
compatible soft fork, everyone will switch to that version to maintain compatibility
with that.

684
00:56:12,115 --> 00:56:19,115
So I think they should do that. A lot of people think that's the wrong direction,
that's going further in the bad direction, but I think that's the good direction.

685
00:56:19,115 --> 00:56:47,115
To me, the fact that the miners will be fired if profit maximized, that makes them
far more, those are much better, they will be more vigilant about protecting the
value of Bitcoin than a bunch of disinterested academic vision of the anointed type
software developers who are not the same people who even propose these ideas.

686
00:56:48,115 --> 00:56:52,115
The people who are just refactoring 5,000 times a day.

687
00:56:53,115 --> 00:57:06,115
I just realized that we have been speaking for about one hour and I have two more
ads to present, so I'm going to present them now and then we can spend the rest of
the time, probably three more hours talking.

688
00:57:07,115 --> 00:57:11,115
So I got to tell you about CryptoSteel, which has been around since 2013.

689
00:57:12,115 --> 00:57:14,115
They are the original metal backup company.

690
00:57:15,115 --> 00:57:20,115
They produced the CryptoSteel cassette, which is open source and has been copied by
lots of other companies.

691
00:57:21,115 --> 00:57:27,115
And I know that you, Paul, are friends with the Bill Foddle people, who are
basically cloning the CryptoSteel.

692
00:57:28,115 --> 00:57:31,115
And they also created the CryptoSteel capsule, which is the newer model.

693
00:57:32,115 --> 00:57:33,115
It's more elegant.

694
00:57:34,115 --> 00:57:35,115
It is more durable.

695
00:57:36,115 --> 00:57:37,115
It's super cool.

696
00:57:38,115 --> 00:57:42,115
I have been wearing that around my neck when I travel through airports just for fun.

697
00:57:43,115 --> 00:57:51,115
And you can get both of these devices from CryptoSteel.com and get a 10% discount by
using promo code BTCTKVR.

698
00:57:51,115 --> 00:57:52,115
Why should you wear these?

699
00:57:53,115 --> 00:57:54,115
Why should you use these at all?

700
00:57:55,115 --> 00:57:59,115
Because paper is not really secure and it can get torn.

701
00:58:00,115 --> 00:58:14,115
Your maid or whatever, wife or whoever cleans your room, your mom, because obviously
you're living in mom's basement, might just throw away the piece of paper that's
used to back up your keys.

702
00:58:15,115 --> 00:58:16,115
And that's a bad idea.

703
00:58:16,115 --> 00:58:20,115
So if you have this device, nobody's going to try to throw it away in the first
place.

704
00:58:21,115 --> 00:58:25,115
And if you want to hide it, you can do your own pirate map.

705
00:58:26,115 --> 00:58:27,115
You can bury it in the backyard.

706
00:58:28,115 --> 00:58:33,115
You can maybe put a hole in your wall and hide your CryptoSteel in there.

707
00:58:34,115 --> 00:58:35,115
There are lots of cool use cases.

708
00:58:36,115 --> 00:58:41,115
And you can use it for pretty much every password or private key that you have,
including Nostr.

709
00:58:42,115 --> 00:58:44,115
So if you're using Nostr, get a CryptoSteel today.

710
00:58:44,115 --> 00:58:45,115
Promo code BTCTKVR.

711
00:58:46,115 --> 00:58:47,115
Go to CryptoSteel.com.

712
00:58:48,115 --> 00:59:04,115
And the other ad poll, and I'm very sorry that I keep you waiting for so long, is
for IVPN, which has been ranked in a recent YouTube video by Privacy Expert as a top
two VPN service, which is on par with only MulVAD.

713
00:59:05,115 --> 00:59:11,115
And what's different between MulVAD and IVPN is that IVPN lets you pay with
Lightning.

714
00:59:11,115 --> 00:59:24,115
And I know you don't like Lightning transactions, Paul, but if you're paying $5 a
month for your VPN service, it's probably not a great idea to pay $3 for the
transaction fee.

715
00:59:25,115 --> 00:59:29,115
And it's better to pay with Lightning if you can do that.

716
00:59:30,115 --> 00:59:36,115
And if you are not sold on IVPN, you can send an email to trial at IVPN.net.

717
00:59:37,115 --> 00:59:42,115
And you tell them that you are sent by the Bitcoin Takeover podcast and you're going
to receive a 30-day trial.

718
00:59:43,115 --> 00:59:46,115
You get a code, you activate that, and you can see how the service works.

719
00:59:47,115 --> 00:59:50,115
Basically, it doesn't require any sort of data from you.

720
00:59:51,115 --> 00:59:56,115
And you get this code that you activate every time.

721
00:59:56,115 --> 01:00:02,115
You can pay to extend the time that you can use it, or you can get a new code, or
whatever.

722
01:00:03,115 --> 01:00:05,115
It's super cool, it's private, it's all open source.

723
01:00:06,115 --> 01:00:16,115
All the stuff that I'm promoting in this podcast, Wasabi, CryptoSteel, SadoChip and
SadoDime, IVPN, it's all open source.

724
01:00:17,115 --> 01:00:24,115
And this podcast also gets published on Spotify and Apple Podcasts using podcast
index.

725
01:00:24,115 --> 01:00:27,115
No, podcast generator, which is also open source.

726
01:00:28,115 --> 01:00:33,115
So everything is pretty much open source and in the spirit of Bitcoin, check them
out and thank you for listening.

727
01:00:34,115 --> 01:00:36,115
Thank you for not skipping my ads.

728
01:00:37,115 --> 01:00:42,115
So now, Paul, I got to make this remark that you said earlier that Blockstream
raised a lot of money.

729
01:00:43,115 --> 01:00:47,115
And they have to account for that by doing stuff which is mostly political.

730
01:00:48,115 --> 01:00:50,115
You also raised a lot of money with your company.

731
01:00:51,115 --> 01:00:52,115
And how are you going to justify that?

732
01:00:53,115 --> 01:00:57,115
I have a business model that I think is great.

733
01:00:58,115 --> 01:01:09,115
But I think if Blockstream, if you convert what they raised into BTC at the time
that they raised it, it is like $20 billion.

734
01:01:10,115 --> 01:01:11,115
So some huge amount of money.

735
01:01:12,115 --> 01:01:15,115
And they also have been existing for a really long time.

736
01:01:15,115 --> 01:01:23,115
And that is why I think they have the need to show that it wasn't all for naught.

737
01:01:24,115 --> 01:01:25,115
That's my guess.

738
01:01:26,115 --> 01:01:28,115
I think we have built a lot of stuff at LayerTwo Labs.

739
01:01:29,115 --> 01:01:30,115
We've only been around for basically a year.

740
01:01:31,115 --> 01:01:37,115
And we have already built a lot of this stuff that can't be named in this episode.

741
01:01:38,115 --> 01:01:39,115
But it's really great.

742
01:01:39,115 --> 01:01:48,115
If you go to releases.something.info, then you can try it yourself, which is really
something.

743
01:01:49,115 --> 01:01:53,115
But we have done quite a bit.

744
01:01:54,115 --> 01:01:56,115
Obviously, awareness is way up.

745
01:01:57,115 --> 01:01:58,115
The technology has improved a lot.

746
01:01:59,115 --> 01:02:06,115
I actually think a certain thing that cannot be named is very close to activation.

747
01:02:06,115 --> 01:02:10,115
And there's a certain argument to be made that it will activate before Covenants.

748
01:02:11,115 --> 01:02:20,115
Because the Covenants people are ahead in some ways, but they are behind in
understanding what it actually takes to activate, I think.

749
01:02:21,115 --> 01:02:25,115
I mean, I can partially agree with you.

750
01:02:26,115 --> 01:02:35,115
And I think what you did is very dangerous for Blockstream and for the way in which
the history was written about Bitcoin.

751
01:02:36,115 --> 01:02:38,115
Is that you lifted the veil.

752
01:02:39,115 --> 01:02:40,115
You destroyed the narrative.

753
01:02:41,115 --> 01:02:44,115
We have been told for such a long time that nodes are in control.

754
01:02:45,115 --> 01:02:48,115
And miners are basically controlled by the nodes.

755
01:02:49,115 --> 01:02:50,115
And they don't have any sort of agency.

756
01:02:51,115 --> 01:02:55,115
And you just came and said, no, miners can activate soft forks.

757
01:02:56,115 --> 01:02:59,115
And that's not a popular opinion to express.

758
01:03:00,115 --> 01:03:01,115
And you're going to get put in the corner.

759
01:03:01,115 --> 01:03:05,115
And maybe you're not going to get invited to some dinners with steaks.

760
01:03:06,115 --> 01:03:11,115
You're not going to go to conferences as a keynote speaker or whatever.

761
01:03:12,115 --> 01:03:13,115
They're not going to make you a headliner.

762
01:03:14,115 --> 01:03:15,115
You're going to be marginalized.

763
01:03:16,115 --> 01:03:17,115
And they're going to laugh at you, I think.

764
01:03:18,115 --> 01:03:21,115
But it's a valid point that the miners can do that.

765
01:03:22,115 --> 01:03:29,115
Yeah, the previous view was an oversimplification based off of what would happen
with SegWit2x, which is a failed hard fork.

766
01:03:30,115 --> 01:03:32,115
It really has nothing to do with, you know.

767
01:03:33,115 --> 01:03:39,115
Ironically, the UASF, that was a successful soft fork that the miners participated
in.

768
01:03:40,115 --> 01:03:41,115
And then it activated as soon as they participated.

769
01:03:42,115 --> 01:03:43,115
So the whole thing is honestly backwards.

770
01:03:44,115 --> 01:03:48,115
The soft fork, you need either the miners or the users can drag the miners.

771
01:03:49,115 --> 01:03:50,115
So you need one of the two.

772
01:03:51,115 --> 01:03:52,115
For a hard fork, you need both.

773
01:03:53,115 --> 01:03:56,115
Both, you need the users, all the users to switch and all the miners to switch.

774
01:03:56,115 --> 01:04:11,115
So the fact that SegWit2x proved that the miners couldn't hard fork Bitcoin, that
has nothing to do with whether or not the miners can soft fork Bitcoin.

775
01:04:12,115 --> 01:04:19,115
If you break the heaviest valid chain, longest valid chain rule, heaviest valid
chain rule, whatever.

776
01:04:20,115 --> 01:04:25,115
If you break that, you are the one who is now hard forking onto a new network.

777
01:04:26,115 --> 01:04:32,115
So if the miners, miners can activate soft fork unilaterally.

778
01:04:33,115 --> 01:04:37,115
But, you know, it's true that Luke Dashjr. and Adam Back don't agree.

779
01:04:38,115 --> 01:04:45,115
But as far as I can tell, they're really the only ones that I would consider to be
like Bitcoin experts who disagree.

780
01:04:46,115 --> 01:04:55,115
I don't know if other people are willing to join them other than, you know, random
Twitter bots that are maybe like 14 or 15, which could all just be the same person.

781
01:04:56,115 --> 01:04:57,115
I don't know. So.

782
01:04:58,115 --> 01:05:04,115
I don't know, I would be interested to know if one person who told me in person at
TabConf was Burak.

783
01:05:05,115 --> 01:05:07,115
He said that.

784
01:05:08,115 --> 01:05:17,115
It would be the right thing to do is to just go to the miners for activation, not of
any BIP he was interested in, but a forbidden one that we can't talk about.

785
01:05:18,115 --> 01:05:21,115
But he said it makes perfect sense.

786
01:05:21,115 --> 01:05:31,115
Especially if the BIP is itself an agreement, basically, between users and miners,
then it makes even more sense for because without their participation, they would
not.

787
01:05:33,115 --> 01:05:37,115
Then it would be dead on arrival anyway, so it makes sense for them to initiate.

788
01:05:38,115 --> 01:05:43,115
But I don't know, I would be interested to see if other if we can find other people
out there.

789
01:05:44,115 --> 01:05:46,115
We can ask people like.

790
01:05:46,115 --> 01:05:49,115
Ask Ruben Thompson or someone like.

791
01:05:52,115 --> 01:05:58,115
What he thinks about this issue of can miners unilaterally activate in a soft fork?

792
01:05:59,115 --> 01:06:02,115
I mean, it's hard to explain something like speedy trial if.

793
01:06:04,115 --> 01:06:06,115
You know, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

794
01:06:07,115 --> 01:06:11,115
People like, for example, I don't want to get too far into the weeds, but people
like Luke, they have.

795
01:06:11,115 --> 01:06:19,115
Attached to this is a belief that if you don't run the latest version of Bitcoin
core, then you're not running a Bitcoin.

796
01:06:20,115 --> 01:06:22,115
Then this is equal. This is completely equal.

797
01:06:23,115 --> 01:06:32,115
If you're one version behind, that is just as bad as if you're running, you know,
Electrum and you do not have your own full node.

798
01:06:32,115 --> 01:06:40,115
And then he says, if we don't have critical mass, 80% of people running full node,
the latest version, then he just says, then Bitcoin has died.

799
01:06:41,115 --> 01:06:43,115
He just says this black and white isms.

800
01:06:44,115 --> 01:06:47,115
So I have carefully tried to examine his point of view.

801
01:06:48,115 --> 01:06:49,115
I think he's a very interesting guy.

802
01:06:50,115 --> 01:06:56,115
I think he is a Bitcoin expert indisputably, but I, I just don't understand how what
he's talking about with this.

803
01:06:56,115 --> 01:07:08,115
I have carefully traced the origins of the soft fork back through Bitcoin talk and
through old GitHub comments and other sources.

804
01:07:09,115 --> 01:07:14,115
And I presented it at this at MIT and the slides are on my website.

805
01:07:15,115 --> 01:07:23,115
And so you but I have researched this and the whole point of the soft fork is that
it's not just about Bitcoin.

806
01:07:23,115 --> 01:07:27,115
But I have researched this and the whole point of the soft fork is that you cannot
get everyone to upgrade.

807
01:07:28,115 --> 01:07:33,115
You only get. But if you get 51% hash rate to upgrade, then you never find there's
never a block.

808
01:07:34,115 --> 01:07:38,115
There's never a single block in the heaviest valid chain that breaks the new rules.

809
01:07:39,115 --> 01:07:40,115
That was the whole reason it was invented.

810
01:07:41,115 --> 01:07:43,115
So I don't I don't know.

811
01:07:44,115 --> 01:07:47,115
I would love if someone can explain to me how any of that is mistaken.

812
01:07:48,115 --> 01:07:51,115
I'm all ears, but I doubt it.

813
01:07:51,115 --> 01:08:04,115
You made a very valid point with the speedy trial, because the narrative has been
that we got to that UASF point, you know, where the nodes were the ones that
activated SegWit.

814
01:08:05,115 --> 01:08:10,115
It was the first time when the node operators actually did that in the history of
Bitcoin.

815
01:08:10,115 --> 01:08:20,115
If I can just interrupt you there just to remind you, I'm sure you know this, but
you remember that the UASF was to force miners to signal and then to activate.

816
01:08:21,115 --> 01:08:25,115
And the actual SegWit activation actually happened two weeks before that would have
gone.

817
01:08:26,115 --> 01:08:28,115
The miners basically folded in the face of the UASF.

818
01:08:29,115 --> 01:08:33,115
So, of course, the UASF almost certainly played a causal role.

819
01:08:34,115 --> 01:08:37,115
But we actually don't necessarily didn't literally play any role.

820
01:08:37,115 --> 01:08:38,115
It did.

821
01:08:38,115 --> 01:08:44,115
SegWit did activate via after the miners upgraded and then their upgraded software
signaled.

822
01:08:46,115 --> 01:08:47,115
Accurately that they had updated.

823
01:08:48,115 --> 01:08:52,115
So it didn't even the UASF was never triggered.

824
01:08:54,115 --> 01:09:06,115
It was a very credible threat, but but no one really knows what would have actually
happened if if they had UASF and then more than 50 percent of the hash rate had
broken the rule.

825
01:09:08,115 --> 01:09:15,115
And then those people would have been on SegWit coin, the minority coin.

826
01:09:16,115 --> 01:09:18,115
I think it just speaks to how that was a stupid way.

827
01:09:19,115 --> 01:09:24,115
What they were trying to get was the block size increase and they tried to hold
SegWit hostage to obtain it.

828
01:09:25,115 --> 01:09:26,115
And that's, you know, that's impolite.

829
01:09:27,115 --> 01:09:29,115
And that was not really constructive either.

830
01:09:30,115 --> 01:09:33,115
So I think that's the real reason why people everyone wanted it, including me.

831
01:09:34,115 --> 01:09:43,115
Everyone thought we should just do SegWit after all this effort had been put into it
to engineering it and to lightning could not really be tried out.

832
01:09:44,115 --> 01:09:46,115
No one was going to try it out before.

833
01:09:47,115 --> 01:09:52,115
So, yeah, I mean, another thing that Moon Settler points out is that it's not a good
idea to have.

834
01:09:54,115 --> 01:09:57,115
People cannot they can only invest so much energy in.

835
01:10:00,115 --> 01:10:05,115
Developing the the BIP or the the soft fork use case.

836
01:10:08,115 --> 01:10:09,115
Pre activation.

837
01:10:11,115 --> 01:10:13,115
Because there's a risk that it won't activate.

838
01:10:13,115 --> 01:10:16,115
And so that's unless you're very independently wealthy.

839
01:10:18,115 --> 01:10:21,115
You know, you can't put all this time into something that may never amount to
anything.

840
01:10:22,115 --> 01:10:24,115
So so we have to activate it.

841
01:10:25,115 --> 01:10:27,115
Some of these things you have to activate them kind of to try them out.

842
01:10:28,115 --> 01:10:29,115
They can always be deactivated later.

843
01:10:30,115 --> 01:10:31,115
This is another thing that people don't understand.

844
01:10:32,115 --> 01:10:34,115
They know that the opposite of a soft fork is a hard fork.

845
01:10:35,115 --> 01:10:41,115
But what they don't know is that a soft fork plus a certain type of anti soft fork
equals zero.

846
01:10:41,115 --> 01:10:42,115
It was nothing.

847
01:10:43,115 --> 01:10:44,115
So you can get.

848
01:10:45,115 --> 01:10:46,115
It's it's a question of.

849
01:10:49,115 --> 01:10:53,115
You don't loosen the like if you claim up, not six for CTV.

850
01:10:54,115 --> 01:10:55,115
But then you don't like it.

851
01:10:56,115 --> 01:11:01,115
Instead of loosening it back up to anyone can spend, you just tighten it to nobody
can ever spend.

852
01:11:02,115 --> 01:11:03,115
And then it just goes away.

853
01:11:04,115 --> 01:11:10,115
So people just apparently Jimmy Song doesn't understand the difference between
doesn't understand how that works.

854
01:11:11,115 --> 01:11:12,115
For example.

855
01:11:13,115 --> 01:11:14,115
Oh, you can explain it.

856
01:11:15,115 --> 01:11:18,115
And he's going to pick that up and maybe write a book about it.

857
01:11:19,115 --> 01:11:22,115
I mean, I thought I tried to explain it on in September on Twitter.

858
01:11:23,115 --> 01:11:25,115
I thought I explained it multiple times.

859
01:11:26,115 --> 01:11:28,115
And also there's a very funny panel.

860
01:11:29,115 --> 01:11:36,115
Jimmy moderated a panel with me and Jeremy Rubin on it called Soft Forks panel at
two Bitcoin Miami's ago.

861
01:11:36,115 --> 01:11:37,115
And I thought it was a great.

862
01:11:38,115 --> 01:11:39,115
I thought it was a really fun.

863
01:11:40,115 --> 01:11:43,115
It was a great panel, and I thought it was very educational.

864
01:11:44,115 --> 01:11:47,115
So I think anyone who's interested in this topic further should watch that.

865
01:11:48,115 --> 01:11:51,115
I think it's it's kind of fun to see the two of us.

866
01:11:53,115 --> 01:11:58,115
And because now the process is, you know, the soft fork conversation is.

867
01:11:59,115 --> 01:12:02,115
Happening again, so go go back and watch that.

868
01:12:02,115 --> 01:12:04,115
Now, I do remember that.

869
01:12:05,115 --> 01:12:08,115
So you mentioned something interesting with removing soft forks.

870
01:12:09,115 --> 01:12:22,115
I do remember that when ordinal inscriptions caught a lot of attention and they were
probably dominant in Bitcoin blocks in terms of numbers and also in terms of paying
fees.

871
01:12:23,115 --> 01:12:25,115
People were saying, how do we deactivate SegWit?

872
01:12:25,115 --> 01:12:29,115
Let's give up on this because this is what led to degeneracy.

873
01:12:30,115 --> 01:12:36,115
And we should ossify Bitcoin and never activate anything ever again because we
should not mess with the monetary.

874
01:12:37,115 --> 01:12:40,115
Layer of the world or whatever they refer it as.

875
01:12:43,115 --> 01:12:47,115
Yeah, I think there's a call for deactivation of this.

876
01:12:48,115 --> 01:12:51,115
First, they wanted to deactivate Taproot because for some reason people thought
Taproot was related.

877
01:12:51,115 --> 01:12:59,115
And then I think they wanted to deactivate the SegWit witness discount, which is
what was responsible for making it four megabytes instead of one.

878
01:13:00,115 --> 01:13:05,115
This is a perfect example, though, of the wrongheadedness of this this way of trying
to control people.

879
01:13:06,115 --> 01:13:14,115
The right way to control people is to give them what they want in a way that does
not allow them to obtain what they want.

880
01:13:15,115 --> 01:13:17,115
Give them a way of obtaining what they want.

881
01:13:17,115 --> 01:13:24,115
Set them on a path where they can get what they want without harming other people.

882
01:13:25,115 --> 01:13:33,115
If instead you try to just stop them from getting what they want, then they will
just find some other way of getting it at your expense.

883
01:13:34,115 --> 01:13:44,115
So if we had high transaction throughput and if we had other things, these people
would never have been on L1.

884
01:13:44,115 --> 01:14:00,115
And if, you know, like no one would care because either the people using it for
payments or for block space storage or for assets, they would not be clogging L1.

885
01:14:01,115 --> 01:14:10,115
And it wouldn't even matter if they did clog L1 because the people who want their
money to just stay on L1 and never move, they don't care what the fee is.

886
01:14:10,115 --> 01:14:14,115
They're never moving their money.

887
01:14:15,115 --> 01:14:24,115
So it's only people who partially cared about the banking use case.

888
01:14:24,115 --> 01:14:41,115
I don't know. Sometimes I get the impression that these conversations are not
technical, but they mostly concern somebody's ability to politically influence other
people.

889
01:14:42,115 --> 01:14:51,115
So it's about narratives and once someone has been presenting a narrative and that
narrative is being broken by a different way of using Bitcoin.

890
01:14:51,115 --> 01:14:52,115
Yes.

891
01:14:53,115 --> 01:14:58,115
It seems like they lose their minds and they say, no, we should discourage this at
all costs.

892
01:14:58,120 --> 01:14:59,120
And what does that mean? Well, they're going to call people names.

893
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:08,120
They're going to start blocking whoever disagrees with them, form echo chambers and
rally everyone against each other with these factions.

894
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:23,120
And it makes me wonder sometimes because it's a slippery slope, you know, and it
seems like what the guys from Ocean Mining have done lately is more than any
government has ever done before.

895
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,120
It's more than any government has ever done in terms of censoring Bitcoin
transactions.

896
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:40,120
And they're setting a pretty dangerous precedent because they're showing how it can
be done with something with which maybe a majority of Bitcoin users can agree.

897
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:50,120
But they're kind of really showing how futile it is in a way because they've only
found it's been a month and a half or maybe even two months.

898
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:56,120
I think that December 3rd was maybe like the official start day and who knows how
much.

899
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:03,120
But they've only found five blocks or so, and this would have been six weeks at
least ago.

900
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:08,120
So that's six, seven thousand blocks into five.

901
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:15,120
So really, they just show that it's it doesn't work.

902
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:16,120
It doesn't work.

903
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:18,120
The system works.

904
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:30,120
It doesn't matter if you're the government or if you're a former and or current or
developer.

905
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:32,120
Yeah.

906
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,120
So what's your agenda with LayerTwo Labs?

907
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:40,120
Or just trying to push the stuff which you cannot name during this episode?

908
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,120
Or are you also looking into rollups?

909
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:51,120
Because I spoke with someone in Argentina and he told me that he regards sidechains
as being obsolete.

910
01:16:52,120 --> 01:17:01,120
And he thinks that zero knowledge rollups or sovereign rollups, as they're being
introduced in Bitcoin, are much more interesting.

911
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:03,120
Well, why sovereign rollups?

912
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:05,120
Those are terrible, I think.

913
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:07,120
Aren't those the terrible kind?

914
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:09,120
Those are just nothing.

915
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:11,120
Those are just basically inscriptions when they're used.

916
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:13,120
Those are Ethereum using Bitcoin's block space.

917
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:14,120
Maybe I have.

918
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:25,120
It's hard to keep all these names down, but I think the sovereign rollup is when
basically Ethereum wants to do rolling up over there.

919
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:33,120
They want to transact in ETH and then they inscribe the rollup on BTC as the data
availability later layer, basically.

920
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:35,120
And this is a parking lot.

921
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:37,120
So that's that's terrible for Bitcoin.

922
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,120
And why would that even be relevant to the question of Bitcoin sidechains?

923
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:44,120
I don't know.

924
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:45,120
It has nothing to do with that.

925
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:47,120
Are you looking it up right now?

926
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:51,120
Rollups are being presented as an alternative to sidechains.

927
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:54,120
Well, they are to some extent.

928
01:17:55,120 --> 01:18:04,120
The rollup requires ZK Prover to be added to L1 and it does nothing to solve data
availability, which is the important thing.

929
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:05,120
Whereas.

930
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:13,120
So I don't know if you think that also L1 can censor the ZK message.

931
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:15,120
So it's really not that different.

932
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:19,120
The adversarial case, either 51 percent is against you or it's not.

933
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:29,120
And either you pay the fees to them, in which case they're happy to have every
transaction go in and they don't want anything censored and they don't want anything
to malfunction because they earn the fees.

934
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:39,120
So either they earn the fees or and in which case the miners are on the team of the
everything functioning properly because they make money.

935
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:52,120
So either you're doing that or you are not doing that, in which case you run into
the problem I mentioned at the very beginning, where you have a big conflict between
the people earning the fees and the miners.

936
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,120
Leading to vertical integration.

937
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:59,120
So I don't see a big difference.

938
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:07,120
The big difference is that there's a lot of downsides in order to make the rollup
something that always can be pulled down to L1.

939
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:09,120
You have to do a lot of work on that.

940
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:15,120
And then it means like, for example, the validity rollups that I actually saw were
like.

941
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:25,120
You could only get like a 4x throughput increase, whereas in contrast, sidechains is
unlimited.

942
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:31,120
Maybe if you switch from back and forth between UTXO and account.

943
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:38,120
You can get more, but even then it would be finite.

944
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,120
Whereas with sidechains it is unbounded.

945
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:51,120
So, and they also like the sidechains, you can just write them in whatever you can
write them in any programming language you want, you can write them with any you
have.

946
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:58,120
I think there's currently too much disagreement over what to do, which is gives an
edge to the sidechains as well.

947
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:06,120
Disagreement is good for you have competing people do their different thing.

948
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:13,120
Yeah, let me turn my attention to the chat because I have been ignoring some people
for too long.

949
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:15,120
Okay.

950
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:17,120
There's this guy, Arbo, who's getting annoyed.

951
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:20,120
He's like, enough not talking about sidechain.

952
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:22,120
Ask the questions, bro.

953
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:24,120
He asked two questions before this.

954
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:30,120
The first one was about mining that can steal from the stuff that cannot be named.

955
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:33,120
Okay, but we can't name that stuff.

956
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:41,120
Explain in detail what would happen if miners decided not to bridge back the coins
or steal them, even if it goes against their interest.

957
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:46,120
Are they referring to something in particular for that one?

958
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,120
Are miners custodians of the Voldemort?

959
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:53,120
That's his question.

960
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:55,120
I say no.

961
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:57,120
But I don't know.

962
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,120
I think in a way, if they are, then they're custodian of everything.

963
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:02,120
I mean, are they custodian of the Lightning Network?

964
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:04,120
If you may open a channel with them.

965
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:15,120
If you have Lightning plus 51% coalition, and I'm Foundry and I have 75% hash rate,
just hypothetical situation.

966
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:21,120
And you open a Lightning channel to me or just a tier Nolan channel, whatever.

967
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:23,120
I mean, let's say it's a Lightning channel.

968
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:27,120
Let's say you're trying to route HTLC or whatever.

969
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:30,120
I don't know.

970
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:41,120
But the point is, in that scenario, I think you have just basically, you're giving
me the money and you just kind of hope that I give it back.

971
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:43,120
I can take it at any time.

972
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:45,120
Do you agree or disagree?

973
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:48,120
Go on.

974
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:52,120
I'm trying to understand where you're going with this.

975
01:21:53,120 --> 01:22:05,120
I'm saying in that scenario, then the 75% hash rate is custodian of anything that's
deposited in a Lightning Layer 2.

976
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:07,120
So they would be custodians of everything.

977
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:11,120
Yeah.

978
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,120
I don't think of mining, though, as having fixed identities.

979
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:16,120
I don't think of the miners.

980
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:18,120
I think of it as a process.

981
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:20,120
It's the mining process.

982
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:24,120
Because there's no set of people that are permanently in.

983
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,120
And anyone could have bad luck and never find a block again.

984
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:33,120
And new people could have good luck and just find blocks with a pen and a piece of
paper, theoretically.

985
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:35,120
It's implausible.

986
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:37,120
So who is in the set?

987
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:39,120
Everyone and no one.

988
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:40,120
Everyone and no one.

989
01:22:41,120 --> 01:23:03,120
So it's kind of like, I don't know, you'd say there's something else where
scientists or the community of scientists versus some named people.

990
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:05,120
I think it's a very different thing.

991
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,120
Or even what constitutes something like math.

992
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:12,120
In terms of proof, like when infinity was invented, people didn't believe in it.

993
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:14,120
Mathematicians didn't believe in it for a while.

994
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:19,120
And when imaginary numbers were invented, the mathematicians didn't believe in it
for a while.

995
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:24,120
But then now it's just they ended up accepting the arguments for why they are.

996
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:26,120
Those things are real.

997
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:31,120
And at one point, they didn't believe in negative numbers because they thought it
was ridiculous.

998
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:35,120
You have two apples and you take away eight apples.

999
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:37,120
It doesn't make any sense.

1000
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:39,120
But it does make sense.

1001
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:50,120
So what I'm trying to say is it's a decentralized process that finds the blocks and
it has no...

1002
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:52,120
It's from everyone and no one.

1003
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:54,120
It's like whatever.

1004
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:56,120
The agents in the matrix.

1005
01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:58,120
It's a bad analogy.

1006
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:00,120
OK, I put another one of these.

1007
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:05,120
This one is also pretty big, but it's not quite as big.

1008
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:06,120
It's not quite as big.

1009
01:24:07,120 --> 01:24:08,120
OK, ready?

1010
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:11,120
The stuff that I have been drinking is hard.

1011
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:15,120
What do you mean hard?

1012
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:16,120
What does that mean?

1013
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:19,120
Like 60 degrees Celsius or something.

1014
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:21,120
70 maybe.

1015
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:25,120
What did you say?

1016
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:27,120
I thought you meant like hard liquor.

1017
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:29,120
You mean hot?

1018
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:31,120
The temperature?

1019
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:33,120
Are you talking about the proof?

1020
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:34,120
This is 80 proof.

1021
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:36,120
This is like real vodka.

1022
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:42,120
It's burning my throat.

1023
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:47,120
Anyway, let's move on to his other question.

1024
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:49,120
I hope he's still here.

1025
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:52,120
I hope he likes what he got for that.

1026
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:54,120
No, I don't think so.

1027
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:56,120
Probably not.

1028
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:00,120
He said use sidechain instead of Voldemort to ask the same question.

1029
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:05,120
If miners decide to steal money from the sidechain, what would happen in detail?

1030
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:09,120
But it's not really about a decision.

1031
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:17,120
I suppose it is, but it's like you either buy this economic setup or you don't.

1032
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:29,120
But with $7.2 million being paid every day on Ethereum, that is a net present value
of $40 billion or whatever.

1033
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:31,120
It's like a huge amount of money.

1034
01:25:32,120 --> 01:25:36,120
So you're going to lose that, this goose that lays the golden eggs.

1035
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:41,120
You're going to lose that if people don't feel comfortable transacting there.

1036
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:50,120
You're saying that it's unlikely to happen, but this guy wants to know if it
happens, what are the steps involved?

1037
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:58,120
First step is the miners hack together some software, which is very easy to do.

1038
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,120
They hack together software that assembles a transaction.

1039
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:03,120
But our software won't do it.

1040
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:05,120
But it's possible to do.

1041
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:15,120
You make something that will construct a withdrawal transaction that pays them all
the coins in the BIP300 script.

1042
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,120
Wait, wait, wait. You said BIP300.

1043
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:20,120
I know, but I thought we had to...

1044
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,120
You have to send a Lightning payment now.

1045
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:26,120
I thought that since it was already in the question, it was...

1046
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:28,120
Okay.

1047
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:30,120
No, it was sidechains.

1048
01:26:32,120 --> 01:26:33,120
Okay, I'm opening Phoenix.

1049
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:35,120
This is our Phoenix right now.

1050
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:37,120
I bet it's not going to work.

1051
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:39,120
We're going to have to drink more.

1052
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:43,120
Because the QR codes don't go over Zoom.

1053
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,120
We pre-tried to do it.

1054
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:49,120
You have to turn the brightness way up and manually focus on the screen.

1055
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:53,120
And then even still Zoom makes it into like a Rorschach inkblot.

1056
01:26:56,120 --> 01:26:57,120
No, wait.

1057
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:00,120
I have my Phoenix open.

1058
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:03,120
Mine is still connecting to Tor.

1059
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:05,120
Oh, great.

1060
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:10,120
I had to close the app and open it once again to get another route.

1061
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:12,120
Now it's connected.

1062
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:15,120
I went to the receive section.

1063
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:17,120
Can you scan this?

1064
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:18,120
Can you scan Phoenix also?

1065
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:20,120
Let's see here.

1066
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:22,120
Okay, I'm scanning.

1067
01:27:23,120 --> 01:27:24,120
I don't know.

1068
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:26,120
It doesn't look good, honestly.

1069
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:28,120
But I'm going to hold it up.

1070
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:30,120
It's very close.

1071
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:32,120
Can you do that thing where you focus the camera before?

1072
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:34,120
Like this?

1073
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:36,120
Wait.

1074
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:38,120
You can try now.

1075
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:40,120
This better work.

1076
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:42,120
To my eye, it looks okay.

1077
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:44,120
But it does look really weird.

1078
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:46,120
I think Zoom does something to it.

1079
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:48,120
I'm not scanning this.

1080
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:51,120
No, it's Zoom.

1081
01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:53,120
Zoom.

1082
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:55,120
I think.

1083
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:58,120
I'll show you.

1084
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:00,120
You can see it.

1085
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:02,120
You can show it to people.

1086
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:04,120
I'll send it to you on Telegram.

1087
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:06,120
It makes this weird squiggle.

1088
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:08,120
Look, this is what I see.

1089
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,120
This is what I see on the screen and on my phone.

1090
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:13,120
So I don't know.

1091
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:16,120
I think it probably does some kind of video compression.

1092
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:18,120
It's probably very hostile to the.

1093
01:28:19,120 --> 01:28:21,120
Look, the QR code really doesn't look like it.

1094
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:26,120
Yeah, the dots have turned into curves for some reason.

1095
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:30,120
Let me try to turn off my filter.

1096
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:32,120
My background.

1097
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:35,120
Maybe this is the one that's causing issues.

1098
01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:38,120
So how do I do this?

1099
01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:41,120
Choose virtual background.

1100
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:43,120
No, it's none.

1101
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:45,120
Now you're going to have to scan this.

1102
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:46,120
Can you scan this, Paul?

1103
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:48,120
Okay, that looks better.

1104
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:50,120
Let me see.

1105
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,120
It looks a lot better, but it's still not working.

1106
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:00,120
I don't know.

1107
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:01,120
It looks really good for me.

1108
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:02,120
Why isn't that?

1109
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:07,120
Can I try again?

1110
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:13,120
After this, you're going to have to explain to me why you hate lightning so much.

1111
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:15,120
I don't really like.

1112
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:18,120
It's not about hating.

1113
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:20,120
This looks much better, but it's still not working.

1114
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:30,120
Should I just send you an invoice to me?

1115
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:32,120
Yeah.

1116
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:34,120
Send it to me on telegram.

1117
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:37,120
I don't know.

1118
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:39,120
It doesn't look great, but it doesn't look that bad either.

1119
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:41,120
It looks way better than before.

1120
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:43,120
But it's not working.

1121
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:46,120
And now it's getting brighter and brighter and brighter, and it's getting worse.

1122
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:48,120
I don't know.

1123
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:49,120
It didn't work for some reason.

1124
01:29:49,120 --> 01:29:51,120
The QR code scanner didn't pick it up.

1125
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:52,120
I don't know why.

1126
01:29:54,120 --> 01:29:57,120
This has nothing to do with lightning and everything to do with Zoom.

1127
01:29:58,120 --> 01:29:59,120
Probably.

1128
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:02,120
So let me copy this.

1129
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:07,120
Copy to clipboard, and now I'm going to send this to you on telegram.

1130
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:09,120
I didn't put an amount.

1131
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:14,120
And Breeze has a very helpful use clipboard button, which is great.

1132
01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:17,120
I assume.

1133
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:20,120
Send me something very small that makes absolutely no sense, like dust.

1134
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:25,120
Because you argued that these transactions are not economic or whatever.

1135
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:28,120
Okay.

1136
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:29,120
Let's see here.

1137
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:33,120
Send you a little bit.

1138
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:40,120
We'll see if we can send you $12.12.

1139
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:43,120
Oh, it worked.

1140
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:44,120
It worked.

1141
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:45,120
It worked.

1142
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:46,120
I'm rich.

1143
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:48,120
It said Phoenix to Phoenix, though.

1144
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:50,120
But still.

1145
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:51,120
Right?

1146
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:52,120
I think it was.

1147
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:56,120
You want to do Phoenix to Breeze or Phoenix to Blix?

1148
01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:57,120
No, let's not chance it.

1149
01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:58,120
Okay?

1150
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:01,120
That already took a long time.

1151
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:02,120
A long time.

1152
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:03,120
Okay, it worked.

1153
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:08,120
Now I made $12 because you mentioned what you were not supposed to mention.

1154
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:10,120
Anyway, you're describing the process.

1155
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:13,120
What happens when miners can actually steal?

1156
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:17,120
They construct the transaction that pays out to them.

1157
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:26,120
And then they take basically the hash of this transaction, and they insert it in
where the normal withdrawal hash would go.

1158
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:30,120
This would alert everyone that there's a problem.

1159
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:31,120
Everyone is paying attention.

1160
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:37,120
And then that hash needs to get basically upvoted.

1161
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,120
It starts off with a score of zero.

1162
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:51,120
And each block, it can be moved up at most one unit, or it stays where it is, or it
can actually be clawed back down one unit.

1163
01:31:52,120 --> 01:31:58,120
But it needs to go within six months, which is 26,300 blocks.

1164
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:01,120
It needs to go up to 13,150.

1165
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:05,120
So that's why it has to take the wrong hash in full view of everyone.

1166
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:09,120
It must achieve a very high score.

1167
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:14,120
After it achieves that score, it basically whitelists the transaction for
withdrawal.

1168
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:21,120
And they can then broadcast the evil transaction into a block months down the line.

1169
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:32,120
And if it's 51% hash rate, then it will take all six months, because they'll just
barely be getting it in time once every other block or so.

1170
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:36,120
And then they broadcast that, and then the money on L1 is transferred to them.

1171
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:51,120
And then the chain that was using that money declares bankruptcy or whatever, and is
a failure.

1172
01:32:54,120 --> 01:33:00,120
Are you sure that the chain declares bankruptcy after this coordinated 51% attack?

1173
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:04,120
Well, it has no L1 coins now.

1174
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:08,120
Sorry, you mean the sidechain?

1175
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:16,120
Yes. I couldn't say which chain. The L2 chain.

1176
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:20,120
It used to have exactly enough coins to pay everyone out if they all withdrew.

1177
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:24,120
But now it has presumably zero coins, or not enough coins.

1178
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:32,120
Okay, so everyone who deposited their coins into that sidechain loses their deposit.

1179
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:34,120
Yep.

1180
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:38,120
Is there any justice mechanism?

1181
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:43,120
Well, there is nothing that will work against a hash rate majority.

1182
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:45,120
But that's the same with Lightning, though.

1183
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:55,120
None of the Covenant justice mechanisms will work against a huge hash rate majority,
which is why it's pointless to compare them, I think, in that way.

1184
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:57,120
You see what I mean?

1185
01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:09,120
The huge hash rate majority, if they're willing to do this type of thing that we
just discussed, they will also be able to filter out,

1186
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:14,120
they'll just be able to stop the Lightning justice transaction from getting into a
block for two weeks.

1187
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,120
That's child's play.

1188
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,120
Okay, how likely is that to happen?

1189
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:24,120
I think all of those things are very unlikely to happen.

1190
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:30,120
But I'm just, I try to point out that they're very similar to each other, in that
they are all.

1191
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:35,120
Because the miners are, you know, participants in Bitcoin, they want Bitcoin to
succeed.

1192
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:41,120
It's much better to be in a situation where everyone is on the same team and
everyone wants to succeed.

1193
01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:48,120
That is better, actually, even than the cryptographic security, because
cryptographic security might have like some kind of bug.

1194
01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:50,120
And then people will lose funds.

1195
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:59,120
But if everyone wants it to keep working, then even if there's a bug, then they may
not exploit the bug.

1196
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:06,120
Because they don't want, they say, wait a minute, if we exploit this bug, we'll lose
the transaction fees.

1197
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:09,120
We'll lose the transaction fees.

1198
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:19,120
We'll lose the source of our wealth, which is not the number of coins on the chain
at any given time.

1199
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:22,120
Which can always be an arbitrarily small amount.

1200
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:25,120
But it is the total transaction fee throughput.

1201
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:33,120
Yeah, Arvo also wants to know if everyone can interpret that hash, even a normal
user.

1202
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:34,120
Yes.

1203
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:38,120
If he detects a corrupted hash, what can he do to prevent it?

1204
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:43,120
The hash will be reported by the L2 chain.

1205
01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:49,120
Every L2 chain is reporting the single honest hash because it is produced
automatically.

1206
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:56,120
So everyone gets the same answer and everyone knows which one the real one is.

1207
01:35:56,120 --> 01:36:01,120
So if one shows up just out of nowhere, everyone knows which one is the one.

1208
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:04,120
If you run a full node of the L2 chain, you will know what it is.

1209
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:11,120
Or even if you run an SPV node and only look at the headers or any other clever
techniques that the chain might do to get the word out there.

1210
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:15,120
And the hash updates very rarely.

1211
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:18,120
It only updates once every three to six months.

1212
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:23,120
The real hash is very, very easy to find.

1213
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:30,120
Every other hash is an evil hash that has been conjured out of, you know, whatever
it is.

1214
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:34,120
It does not correspond to the actual people who have requested to withdraw on the L2
chain.

1215
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:39,120
So every other hash is the wrong one.

1216
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:48,120
If you detect that it is a mistake, then obviously the first thing to do would be to
make sure that some kind of misunderstanding hasn't taken place.

1217
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:52,120
Because it could be a completely innocent mistake.

1218
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:55,120
But yeah, you would start to tell people about it.

1219
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,120
You'd say this is the incorrect thing.

1220
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:00,120
You can always put a new hash in.

1221
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:04,120
And when the new hash is upvoted, all the others are downvoted automatically.

1222
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:10,120
So only one can make forward progress towards the goal because only one of them is
correct.

1223
01:37:10,120 --> 01:37:13,120
So there's never a scenario where two are correct.

1224
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:20,120
So you would start, like anything else, you would think that there's a dispute.

1225
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:24,120
And then you would slowly escalate further and further and further.

1226
01:37:24,120 --> 01:37:32,120
You might try to figure out who's doing this wrongdoing and who is responding the
wrong way.

1227
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:39,120
You could figure out if certain mining pools support this error.

1228
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:54,120
Or if they are, in fact, behind it, you could explain to the individual hashers who
are not the mining pools why this pool may be doing something that benefits them,
benefits the pool.

1229
01:37:54,120 --> 01:38:03,120
But it will, in the long run, hurt the hashers because the value of the long run
transaction fees may be much higher than what can be taken in three months.

1230
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:09,120
So you could appeal to them to switch pools.

1231
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:14,120
You could try all kinds of things.

1232
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:17,120
Arbo also, he seems to be monopolizing the conversation.

1233
01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:20,120
So Arbo, just so you know, this is your last question.

1234
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:22,120
I'm going to have to pick up some others.

1235
01:38:22,120 --> 01:38:29,120
But he says, what if the sidechain becomes as big as L1 and governments take control
of it just to destroy Bitcoin?

1236
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:32,120
Is there any way to prevent this?

1237
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:40,120
Well, if it's the case that it becomes very big and then it is taken over and
destroyed, you can always fall back to L1 and then just try again.

1238
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:42,120
Make the same thing a second time.

1239
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:47,120
Or make 10 things that are one tenth as large.

1240
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,120
I wouldn't really worry about that.

1241
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:53,120
That sounds like a pretty good scenario.

1242
01:38:53,120 --> 01:38:58,120
So you're saying that there's a self-regulating mechanism that might want to prevent
this?

1243
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:00,120
They can fail safely without taking the whole thing down.

1244
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:01,120
So it's not like L1.

1245
01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:07,120
It's like an infinite L1 block where the network just stops working.

1246
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:15,120
With this, the L2 network is just paused temporarily until the new network comes
back.

1247
01:39:15,120 --> 01:39:18,120
And meanwhile, L1 is still small and it's still a small block size.

1248
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,120
It still works just fine.

1249
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:26,120
So that doesn't sound like such a bad scenario to me.

1250
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:35,120
I mean, we currently live in a situation where most of the financial system is
already controlled by the government in that way.

1251
01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:37,120
So we're already in that world.

1252
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:55,120
So if we could switch that to everyone at least being a user of Bitcoin temporarily
and then have a small setback and then try again, that seems like an improvement
relative to where we are now.

1253
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:56,120
Okay.

1254
01:39:57,324 --> 01:40:07,524
I don't think Arbo has any more questions, but he did make an observation before
this that he said that nobody wants sidechains.

1255
01:40:07,524 --> 01:40:09,224
So how can you activate that?

1256
01:40:11,424 --> 01:40:16,124
I think that there will be a lot of demand for sidechains.

1257
01:40:16,124 --> 01:40:17,624
I think it will be much more than that.

1258
01:40:18,124 --> 01:40:20,624
I think the truth is there's no demand for Lightning.

1259
01:40:21,424 --> 01:40:23,024
It's less than 5,000 coins.

1260
01:40:23,824 --> 01:40:28,624
And there's 150,000, 140,000 for wrapped BTC.

1261
01:40:28,724 --> 01:40:41,424
So I don't see any evidence that I think it's actually just Lightning has the
numbers are distorted upwards because of just the way the narrative played out.

1262
01:40:41,424 --> 01:40:51,924
But the actual hard data supports the fact that people want to not only develop the
sidechains, but also use them.

1263
01:40:54,424 --> 01:41:00,724
I mean, we have much more transaction fees are paid on Ethereum than on BTC.

1264
01:41:00,724 --> 01:41:06,124
And USDT on Tron is like the number one payments chain or something.

1265
01:41:06,124 --> 01:41:11,624
So people want to use different blockchain designs.

1266
01:41:12,624 --> 01:41:13,924
That is indisputable.

1267
01:41:15,024 --> 01:41:24,824
Whether or not they would prefer them, you know, whether or not the right tradeoff
is sidechain of BTC, I don't know.

1268
01:41:24,824 --> 01:41:33,624
But Lightning is a tiny amount of 0.0, whatever, 2.4 hundredths of a percent, which
is nothing.

1269
01:41:37,124 --> 01:41:43,624
Yeah, Arbo said, I have more questions, but you told me if it had to be my last one.

1270
01:41:44,124 --> 01:41:50,424
Well, I think most of these were addressed in our five hour live stream, which we
did like three months ago.

1271
01:41:51,424 --> 01:41:52,524
Do other people have questions?

1272
01:41:52,524 --> 01:41:55,224
I feel bad for anyone else who may have a question.

1273
01:41:58,524 --> 01:42:03,024
If there are no other questions, then you might as well let them keep asking
questions.

1274
01:42:03,024 --> 01:42:03,524
I don't know.

1275
01:42:04,424 --> 01:42:08,924
There was Coco in the chat who was very active.

1276
01:42:10,924 --> 01:42:14,424
But he was more reactive, not just active.

1277
01:42:14,424 --> 01:42:15,924
He didn't really ask questions.

1278
01:42:15,924 --> 01:42:22,424
He was completing some arguments like, yes, layer twos that pay fees to the miners
is the way to go.

1279
01:42:23,924 --> 01:42:29,924
The layer two, by definition, has to connect to Bitcoin in some way and wrap BTC on
Ethereum doesn't really.

1280
01:42:30,824 --> 01:42:33,324
He also remarked that you have longer hair now.

1281
01:42:34,324 --> 01:42:36,324
I do, yeah. I need a haircut.

1282
01:42:37,324 --> 01:42:38,324
No, you're fine.

1283
01:42:42,324 --> 01:42:43,324
What else?

1284
01:42:43,324 --> 01:42:46,324
Those cold winter months, you want like a little hat.

1285
01:42:47,324 --> 01:42:52,824
Regarding OP_CAT, people should then tell us potential issues with it.

1286
01:42:52,824 --> 01:42:56,824
It's literally just concatenating two values.

1287
01:42:57,724 --> 01:42:58,724
It is harmless.

1288
01:42:58,724 --> 01:43:05,724
And SegWit was presented as a block size increase at the time big blockers tried to
push their ideas.

1289
01:43:06,724 --> 01:43:11,724
He also talked about LNHance, that it has CTV in it too.

1290
01:43:13,724 --> 01:43:22,724
Regarding SegWit, again, pushing it without the block size increase, which is
technically possible, was seen as unthinkable because everyone's mind was on block
size increases.

1291
01:43:23,724 --> 01:43:25,724
I think it was a compromise.

1292
01:43:26,624 --> 01:43:32,624
It was pitched as like, we will get a 2.3x block size increase out of this.

1293
01:43:34,624 --> 01:43:39,624
In fact, I remember people saying, because SegWit2x, they wanted the 2x block size
increase.

1294
01:43:39,624 --> 01:43:47,624
But plenty of people said, rightly so, they said SegWit already is a 2x block size
increase, at least.

1295
01:43:48,524 --> 01:43:57,524
Based on prevailing patterns of transaction size, it would have been about 2.3x-ish.

1296
01:44:00,524 --> 01:44:05,524
Assuming no inscriptions that are fit completely in the witness section.

1297
01:44:10,524 --> 01:44:14,524
It was pitched as a compromise, but plenty of people didn't know that.

1298
01:44:15,424 --> 01:44:21,424
They thought something like SegWit makes the transactions smaller, and so you can
fit more transactions.

1299
01:44:21,424 --> 01:44:29,424
People still think of the witness discount as something that is justified on merit.

1300
01:44:30,424 --> 01:44:34,424
Whereas really, it is not really so.

1301
01:44:35,424 --> 01:44:39,424
It depends on who you ask, but it's the same number of bytes.

1302
01:44:40,324 --> 01:44:52,324
Four megabytes worth of bytes can go across the wire, but they only get charged as
much as what one megabyte of a different type of data would get charged.

1303
01:44:54,324 --> 01:45:01,324
It does not make the transactions smaller or more efficient, but this is a very
widespread view that many, many people had.

1304
01:45:01,324 --> 01:45:07,324
I can't believe that we did Phoenix to Phoenix, but I can't believe that it worked
immediately on the first try.

1305
01:45:07,324 --> 01:45:09,324
I really thought it probably wouldn't work.

1306
01:45:10,324 --> 01:45:14,324
But there you go. Phoenix. Sponsored by Phoenix. Next week.

1307
01:45:15,324 --> 01:45:19,324
Unlikely, but I'm happy it went through.

1308
01:45:19,324 --> 01:45:24,324
Anyway, we also got some comments on X, and they were super positive.

1309
01:45:24,324 --> 01:45:26,324
X is the former Twitter, by the way.

1310
01:45:26,324 --> 01:45:31,324
And Stephanie So said, loving the clarity and honesty of this conversation.

1311
01:45:31,324 --> 01:45:37,324
And also, she seemed to agree with some points and said 100% a couple of times.

1312
01:45:38,224 --> 01:45:46,224
And Coco also remarked that, unfortunately, many people still suffer from the PTSD
from the block sites.

1313
01:45:46,224 --> 01:45:47,224
Yes, this is terrible.

1314
01:45:47,224 --> 01:45:48,224
This has caused nothing but...

1315
01:45:48,224 --> 01:45:55,224
And this has allowed certain people to work their way up, the wrong kind of person
to work their way up the totem pole.

1316
01:45:55,224 --> 01:46:01,224
And deceive a bunch of innocent victims into, you know, joining the weird cult.

1317
01:46:02,124 --> 01:46:07,124
But really, it's just bad for Bitcoin to have this weird relationship.

1318
01:46:07,124 --> 01:46:11,124
I mean, of course, being suspicious and paranoid, that's well enough.

1319
01:46:11,124 --> 01:46:12,124
I mean, I understand that.

1320
01:46:13,124 --> 01:46:14,124
That's great.

1321
01:46:14,124 --> 01:46:15,124
You know, you get an A+.

1322
01:46:15,124 --> 01:46:23,124
If you're doing like cryptography and something like this, and you want to be
suspicious and paranoid, that's great.

1323
01:46:26,124 --> 01:46:28,124
But it just doesn't really make any sense.

1324
01:46:28,124 --> 01:46:29,124
Like, you know what I mean?

1325
01:46:30,024 --> 01:46:33,024
And this is why I think OP_CAT can help.

1326
01:46:33,024 --> 01:46:36,024
Because OP_CAT, it was in the original Bitcoin.

1327
01:46:36,024 --> 01:46:39,024
It was kind of hastily disabled.

1328
01:46:39,024 --> 01:46:45,024
It does something that regular people can understand, putting two things together on
the stack.

1329
01:46:46,024 --> 01:46:52,024
And we already have stack things that are way more complicated and weird versions of
that.

1330
01:46:53,024 --> 01:46:57,024
So it would just show that it is not the proposal itself.

1331
01:46:57,024 --> 01:46:59,024
It is just this weird baggage.

1332
01:46:59,924 --> 01:47:02,924
I think that that would help.

1333
01:47:04,924 --> 01:47:11,924
And the fact that miners can activate a software unilaterally, that is what proves
how harmless it is.

1334
01:47:12,924 --> 01:47:15,924
Because the software can activate and your node won't even notice.

1335
01:47:16,924 --> 01:47:22,924
The fact that you won't notice, that is what proves that it is being done the right
way.

1336
01:47:23,924 --> 01:47:24,924
You know what I mean?

1337
01:47:25,824 --> 01:47:29,824
You don't notice the activation, but you can notice the side effects of the
activation.

1338
01:47:30,824 --> 01:47:31,824
But think about it.

1339
01:47:31,824 --> 01:47:38,824
If the soft fork is coded the right way, and it is like the way most soft forks had
in the past.

1340
01:47:39,824 --> 01:47:40,824
We are reusing the unused.

1341
01:47:41,824 --> 01:47:47,824
Satoshi added those 10 opnops specifically so that they could be used later.

1342
01:47:49,824 --> 01:47:51,824
That is exactly why he put them there.

1343
01:47:52,724 --> 01:47:56,724
So you take a blank opnop 6 or OP_NOP5 or whatever.

1344
01:47:58,724 --> 01:48:02,724
And for old nodes, it always makes it through the script interpreter.

1345
01:48:03,724 --> 01:48:06,724
But for new nodes, it sometimes fails the script interpreter.

1346
01:48:07,724 --> 01:48:09,724
For new nodes and 51% hash rate.

1347
01:48:10,724 --> 01:48:15,724
Now you will only notice the side effects of the soft fork.

1348
01:48:16,624 --> 01:48:25,624
If you deliberately go out to use this, what to you is an unused opnop that is
supposed to be used to deploy future features.

1349
01:48:26,624 --> 01:48:38,624
You suddenly use opnop 6 in your transaction without looking around to see that
plenty of other people and plus 51% of the hash rate is using it for something else.

1350
01:48:39,524 --> 01:48:45,524
If you do that and you use it in a way that breaks their rules, then the transaction
will be invalid.

1351
01:48:46,524 --> 01:48:47,524
But even then, nothing really bad is happening.

1352
01:48:48,524 --> 01:48:49,524
Your transaction is invalid.

1353
01:48:50,524 --> 01:48:51,524
You still have all of your money.

1354
01:48:52,524 --> 01:49:00,524
You just redo the transaction some other way with either using opnop 6 differently
or using opnop 9 or using nothing, not using that at all.

1355
01:49:01,524 --> 01:49:03,524
So what you notice is very, very limited.

1356
01:49:04,424 --> 01:49:13,424
You may, in a very, very, very bizarre adversarial edge case where people disagree
about activating the soft fork, you might see some blocks get re-org'd.

1357
01:49:14,424 --> 01:49:15,424
Which is not good.

1358
01:49:16,424 --> 01:49:25,424
However, blocks get accidentally orphaned and re-org'd naturally all the time just
based on bad luck and laws of physics.

1359
01:49:26,424 --> 01:49:27,424
So it's not even that.

1360
01:49:28,424 --> 01:49:29,424
It's not in a new category of thing.

1361
01:49:30,424 --> 01:49:31,424
The same thing already happens.

1362
01:49:32,324 --> 01:49:33,324
It really is in a category of thing that you would not notice.

1363
01:49:34,324 --> 01:49:46,324
The irony is that some things like SegWit and even script versioning, those are very
big, huge changes that are not –

1364
01:49:47,324 --> 01:49:53,324
So I think SegWit and tap – really SegWit in particular was almost not really –

1365
01:49:54,224 --> 01:49:55,224
It was barely a –

1366
01:49:56,224 --> 01:49:57,224
It wasn't a soft fork in the same way.

1367
01:49:58,224 --> 01:50:01,224
CheckLockTimeVerified just took opnop 2 and it was basically like postdating a
check.

1368
01:50:02,224 --> 01:50:07,224
It says this transaction is not valid until this block height.

1369
01:50:08,224 --> 01:50:10,224
And there's nothing controversial about that.

1370
01:50:11,224 --> 01:50:12,224
That's a very different type of thing.

1371
01:50:13,224 --> 01:50:19,224
And so in CTV and other things, these other things, when you repurpose an opcode,

1372
01:50:20,124 --> 01:50:25,124
that is really – that's very tame.

1373
01:50:26,124 --> 01:50:31,124
Because Satoshi put those in there specifically because he knew that we might want
to add opcodes later.

1374
01:50:32,124 --> 01:50:33,124
That was the whole point.

1375
01:50:34,124 --> 01:50:36,124
So I don't know.

1376
01:50:37,124 --> 01:50:40,124
It's really a big stretch to say that this is some kind of like –

1377
01:50:41,124 --> 01:50:46,124
It's really not even a change to the protocol because you can ignore it completely
if you wish.

1378
01:50:47,024 --> 01:50:48,024
And also it –

1379
01:50:49,024 --> 01:50:52,024
The protocol has these blank slots.

1380
01:50:53,024 --> 01:50:55,024
And there are an unlimited number of these.

1381
01:50:56,024 --> 01:51:01,024
There are only 10, it's true, but you can do a thing where if we use op9,

1382
01:51:02,024 --> 01:51:07,024
then it checks the next two bytes to see like –

1383
01:51:08,024 --> 01:51:09,024
Then you can count to 100.

1384
01:51:10,024 --> 01:51:12,024
And then you can say if the next two bytes are 99,

1385
01:51:12,924 --> 01:51:15,924
check the next three bytes for the next –

1386
01:51:16,924 --> 01:51:17,924
So there's an unlimited number of these.

1387
01:51:18,924 --> 01:51:19,924
They are not a scarce resource.

1388
01:51:24,924 --> 01:51:26,924
They are supposed to be used this way.

1389
01:51:28,924 --> 01:51:31,924
So yeah, it just shows you how messed up everyone has gotten, I think.

1390
01:51:34,924 --> 01:51:36,924
Well, this is a side note.

1391
01:51:37,924 --> 01:51:38,924
I'm a nerd.

1392
01:51:39,024 --> 01:51:41,824
In my previous life, I was into constitutionalism.

1393
01:51:42,824 --> 01:51:45,824
And the fact that we have these 10 opnops,

1394
01:51:46,824 --> 01:51:51,824
it sounds a bit like not just the 10 commandments because I'm not a religious nut.

1395
01:51:52,824 --> 01:51:55,824
I'm not Luke to link everything to the Bible.

1396
01:51:56,824 --> 01:51:58,824
But you have the Bill of Rights.

1397
01:51:59,824 --> 01:52:02,824
And it almost seems like Satoshi left us, you know,

1398
01:52:03,824 --> 01:52:06,824
the founding father left us the 10 Bill of Rights and we're not using them.

1399
01:52:07,724 --> 01:52:10,724
I don't know how well that analogy works

1400
01:52:11,724 --> 01:52:13,724
because, of course, the Bill of Rights were amendments,

1401
01:52:14,724 --> 01:52:16,724
changes or whatever to the Constitution.

1402
01:52:17,724 --> 01:52:18,724
But each amendment was theoretically –

1403
01:52:19,724 --> 01:52:22,724
It's important to note that the amendments, especially the first 10,

1404
01:52:23,724 --> 01:52:25,724
those were really, I think,

1405
01:52:26,724 --> 01:52:30,724
the Constitution itself is supposed to declare what the government cannot do.

1406
01:52:31,724 --> 01:52:33,724
And the 10 amendments in particular,

1407
01:52:34,624 --> 01:52:35,624
like the first one says,

1408
01:52:36,624 --> 01:52:40,624
Congress shall make no law interfering with freedom of speech,

1409
01:52:41,624 --> 01:52:43,624
freedom of religion, et cetera, freedom of the press,

1410
01:52:44,624 --> 01:52:45,624
the right to peacefully assemble

1411
01:52:46,624 --> 01:52:48,624
and the right to petition the government for the redress of grievances.

1412
01:52:49,624 --> 01:52:52,624
But they're saying –

1413
01:52:53,624 --> 01:52:54,624
It's like a covenant in a way,

1414
01:52:55,624 --> 01:52:56,624
but they're saying things that the government cannot do.

1415
01:52:57,624 --> 01:52:58,624
They're shrinking.

1416
01:52:59,624 --> 01:53:00,624
So they're very soft fork-like.

1417
01:53:01,524 --> 01:53:05,524
They're shrinking the design space of Bitcoin

1418
01:53:06,524 --> 01:53:07,524
or whatever, the state space.

1419
01:53:09,524 --> 01:53:10,524
You're saying,

1420
01:53:11,524 --> 01:53:15,524
the Bitcoin protocol shall not use OPNAP2 for anything

1421
01:53:16,524 --> 01:53:18,524
other than check, lock, 10, verify.

1422
01:53:19,524 --> 01:53:21,524
You're such a nerd, Paul.

1423
01:53:22,524 --> 01:53:23,524
I can't believe this.

1424
01:53:24,524 --> 01:53:28,524
Anyway, Dan Anderson said OP underscore full underscore send.

1425
01:53:29,424 --> 01:53:30,424
I'm not sure what that one is.

1426
01:53:31,424 --> 01:53:32,424
Is that to empty your wallet?

1427
01:53:33,424 --> 01:53:34,424
I don't know.

1428
01:53:35,424 --> 01:53:37,424
And Coco also remarked that Taproot added a bunch of new OPNAPs,

1429
01:53:38,424 --> 01:53:40,424
which they call OP underscore success.

1430
01:53:41,424 --> 01:53:42,424
So we have plenty.

1431
01:53:43,424 --> 01:53:44,424
Indeed.

1432
01:53:45,424 --> 01:53:46,424
Taproot has its own tap script thing.

1433
01:53:47,424 --> 01:53:49,424
I don't know how many people will find this interesting,

1434
01:53:50,424 --> 01:53:52,424
but they have their own thing.

1435
01:53:53,424 --> 01:53:54,424
Yes, it's not a scarce resource.

1436
01:53:55,424 --> 01:53:57,424
You only need one and then you have infinite, basically.

1437
01:53:58,324 --> 01:54:00,324
Although when Satoshi added them the first time,

1438
01:54:03,324 --> 01:54:07,324
I think I'm almost certain that that was a hard fork.

1439
01:54:08,324 --> 01:54:09,324
And I think Eric Lombroso also agrees

1440
01:54:10,324 --> 01:54:13,324
and also presented at this at the first breaking Bitcoin

1441
01:54:14,324 --> 01:54:15,324
in Amsterdam, I think.

1442
01:54:17,324 --> 01:54:19,324
But because they were not there before,

1443
01:54:20,324 --> 01:54:21,324
those were all fail.

1444
01:54:22,324 --> 01:54:23,324
And then they were basically all,

1445
01:54:24,324 --> 01:54:26,324
anyone can spend OP64.

1446
01:54:27,224 --> 01:54:28,224
Anyone can spend OP66.

1447
01:54:29,224 --> 01:54:30,224
And so,

1448
01:54:32,224 --> 01:54:34,224
just a little random historical fact for you.

1449
01:54:35,224 --> 01:54:36,224
But in those days,

1450
01:54:37,224 --> 01:54:39,224
that would be one of only a few hard forks.

1451
01:54:40,224 --> 01:54:42,224
One of which would be, I think,

1452
01:54:43,224 --> 01:54:45,224
changing from longest chain to heaviest chain,

1453
01:54:46,224 --> 01:54:47,224
I think is also a hard fork.

1454
01:54:48,224 --> 01:54:50,224
Because if you don't upgrade,

1455
01:54:51,224 --> 01:54:53,224
it's quite likely that you'll be on the wrong chain.

1456
01:54:55,224 --> 01:54:56,224
Although not inevitably.

1457
01:54:57,224 --> 01:54:59,224
But it becomes increasingly likely

1458
01:55:00,224 --> 01:55:02,224
that you will be on the wrong chain.

1459
01:55:03,224 --> 01:55:05,224
So you must, it's a mandatory upgrade.

1460
01:55:06,224 --> 01:55:08,224
Now we have something very spicy.

1461
01:55:09,224 --> 01:55:11,224
First of all, there is Coco in the chat who agrees with you.

1462
01:55:12,224 --> 01:55:13,224
Does he work for LayerTwo Labs?

1463
01:55:14,224 --> 01:55:15,224
If he doesn't, give him a job.

1464
01:55:16,224 --> 01:55:17,224
Anyway, Arbo said,

1465
01:55:18,224 --> 01:55:20,224
you clearly won the debate against Giacomo Zucco,

1466
01:55:21,224 --> 01:55:23,224
yet he hasn't changed his position at all.

1467
01:55:24,224 --> 01:55:25,224
Do you have thoughts on that?

1468
01:55:26,124 --> 01:55:27,124
Yeah, I thought that was very interesting

1469
01:55:28,124 --> 01:55:29,124
when he had this conversation.

1470
01:55:30,124 --> 01:55:31,124
Because I had no idea.

1471
01:55:32,124 --> 01:55:34,124
He was going to do a thing on what shall not be named.

1472
01:55:35,124 --> 01:55:36,124
He almost got me.

1473
01:55:37,124 --> 01:55:38,124
I was almost going to say it.

1474
01:55:39,124 --> 01:55:40,124
Okay, wait.

1475
01:55:41,124 --> 01:55:42,124
What's the context?

1476
01:55:43,124 --> 01:55:44,124
When did the debate take place?

1477
01:55:45,124 --> 01:55:46,124
Where can people find this?

1478
01:55:47,124 --> 01:55:48,124
There was Bitcoin Amsterdam.

1479
01:55:49,124 --> 01:55:50,124
Last year?

1480
01:55:51,124 --> 01:55:52,124
In 2023.

1481
01:55:53,124 --> 01:55:54,124
Like a few months ago.

1482
01:55:55,024 --> 01:55:56,024
It was like October, I think.

1483
01:55:57,024 --> 01:55:58,024
Does that sound right?

1484
01:55:59,024 --> 01:56:01,024
And he was going to give a talk on

1485
01:56:02,024 --> 01:56:04,024
letter, letter, letter, number, number, number.

1486
01:56:06,024 --> 01:56:07,024
It was just going to be him.

1487
01:56:08,024 --> 01:56:11,024
But they didn't know that Paul was here.

1488
01:56:12,024 --> 01:56:13,024
So he was like, let's turn it into a debate.

1489
01:56:14,024 --> 01:56:17,024
And then they said, let's have someone,

1490
01:56:18,024 --> 01:56:19,024
I guess Aaron or someone moderate it.

1491
01:56:20,024 --> 01:56:23,024
But then Giacomo said, I think we probably don't need it.

1492
01:56:23,924 --> 01:56:24,924
So it's just the two of us,

1493
01:56:25,924 --> 01:56:26,924
which I thought was a better format, honestly.

1494
01:56:27,924 --> 01:56:29,924
But then, yeah, I just like said,

1495
01:56:30,924 --> 01:56:31,924
this is what this is.

1496
01:56:32,924 --> 01:56:33,924
And then he spent the whole time complaining about

1497
01:56:34,924 --> 01:56:37,924
this is being promoted the wrong way or the tone.

1498
01:56:38,924 --> 01:56:39,924
And then at the end, he,

1499
01:56:40,924 --> 01:56:41,924
I don't know, he sort of like,

1500
01:56:42,924 --> 01:56:43,924
he didn't really,

1501
01:56:44,924 --> 01:56:46,924
it's weird, he doesn't seem to really disagree.

1502
01:56:47,924 --> 01:56:48,924
I don't know.

1503
01:56:49,924 --> 01:56:51,924
I think it's a very good question that the person asked.

1504
01:56:52,824 --> 01:56:53,824
Because he,

1505
01:56:55,824 --> 01:56:56,824
I think it's probably, to be honest with you,

1506
01:56:57,824 --> 01:56:58,824
it's probably just like a RGB compete.

1507
01:56:59,824 --> 01:57:00,824
They think it's a competing project, probably.

1508
01:57:01,824 --> 01:57:02,824
I think that's, that's what it all comes down to.

1509
01:57:03,824 --> 01:57:05,824
I think it's probably most of the explanation.

1510
01:57:09,824 --> 01:57:11,824
I think that's also why Peter Todd doesn't like

1511
01:57:12,824 --> 01:57:13,824
Drivechains, because, oh, shit.

1512
01:57:14,824 --> 01:57:15,824
I'm supposed to drink.

1513
01:57:19,824 --> 01:57:20,824
Anyway.

1514
01:57:21,724 --> 01:57:22,724
Horrible.

1515
01:57:24,724 --> 01:57:25,724
So,

1516
01:57:26,724 --> 01:57:27,724
Peter Todd has been thinking about sidechains

1517
01:57:28,724 --> 01:57:29,724
since at least 2013.

1518
01:57:30,724 --> 01:57:31,724
Yeah, long time, very long time.

1519
01:57:32,724 --> 01:57:33,724
And it almost seems like,

1520
01:57:34,724 --> 01:57:35,724
I don't think he gave up on the idea.

1521
01:57:36,724 --> 01:57:37,724
Maybe that he wants to come up with something better

1522
01:57:38,724 --> 01:57:39,724
to one up you.

1523
01:57:40,724 --> 01:57:41,724
And maybe that he thinks that

1524
01:57:42,724 --> 01:57:43,724
what I'm not supposed to say

1525
01:57:44,724 --> 01:57:45,724
can be improved upon.

1526
01:57:46,724 --> 01:57:47,724
Yes, he likes the so-called client-side validation.

1527
01:57:48,724 --> 01:57:49,724
And so do I.

1528
01:57:50,624 --> 01:57:51,624
Everyone wants this.

1529
01:57:52,624 --> 01:57:53,624
This is the whole problem of the blockchain

1530
01:57:54,624 --> 01:57:55,624
is it's a global state.

1531
01:57:56,624 --> 01:57:57,624
And that is hard to grow to the whole world

1532
01:57:58,624 --> 01:57:59,624
because of this O-N squared thing.

1533
01:58:00,624 --> 01:58:01,624
It's never literally O-N squared anywhere,

1534
01:58:02,624 --> 01:58:03,624
but I think we all understand that

1535
01:58:04,624 --> 01:58:05,624
it's like you have all the people in the world

1536
01:58:06,624 --> 01:58:07,624
are like rows of a table.

1537
01:58:08,624 --> 01:58:09,624
And then all the other people of the world are

1538
01:58:10,624 --> 01:58:11,624
8 billion rows, 8 billion columns.

1539
01:58:14,624 --> 01:58:15,624
There's nothing literally O-N squared,

1540
01:58:16,624 --> 01:58:17,624
but it's like that's the state is growing.

1541
01:58:18,624 --> 01:58:19,624
So,

1542
01:58:20,624 --> 01:58:21,624
that's the state of the software.

1543
01:58:22,624 --> 01:58:23,624
And so,

1544
01:58:24,624 --> 01:58:25,624
you want to only have,

1545
01:58:26,624 --> 01:58:27,624
what he wants is something like

1546
01:58:28,624 --> 01:58:29,624
where

1547
01:58:30,624 --> 01:58:31,624
each user only,

1548
01:58:32,624 --> 01:58:33,624
they're responsible for tracking their own coins

1549
01:58:34,624 --> 01:58:35,624
and even the miners aren't in on it.

1550
01:58:36,624 --> 01:58:37,624
So, he doesn't even want the miners in

1551
01:58:38,624 --> 01:58:39,624
on it at all.

1552
01:58:40,624 --> 01:58:41,624
And he doesn't want anyone in on it at all.

1553
01:58:42,624 --> 01:58:43,624
So, he doesn't want any shared state.

1554
01:58:45,624 --> 01:58:46,624
Whereas I think it's actually not so bad

1555
01:58:47,624 --> 01:58:48,624
because in a thing that cannot be named

1556
01:58:49,524 --> 01:58:50,524
even like I have done some math.

1557
01:58:51,524 --> 01:58:52,524
So, for example, with Solana,

1558
01:58:53,524 --> 01:58:54,524
you could check like

1559
01:58:55,524 --> 01:58:56,524
Solana has been some of the most

1560
01:58:57,524 --> 01:58:58,524
disrespectful to the node costs

1561
01:58:59,524 --> 01:59:00,524
at first.

1562
01:59:01,524 --> 01:59:02,524
Because at one point there was only like one Solana node

1563
01:59:03,524 --> 01:59:04,524
and everyone was making fun of Solana.

1564
01:59:05,524 --> 01:59:06,524
I remember January of I think 2022,

1565
01:59:07,524 --> 01:59:08,524
everyone was making fun of Solana all the time,

1566
01:59:09,524 --> 01:59:10,524
including me.

1567
01:59:11,524 --> 01:59:12,524
And someone inside contacted me

1568
01:59:13,524 --> 01:59:14,524
and told me

1569
01:59:15,524 --> 01:59:16,524
they're down to just one node

1570
01:59:17,524 --> 01:59:18,524
in a data center.

1571
01:59:19,524 --> 01:59:20,524
That's how bad it is.

1572
01:59:21,524 --> 01:59:22,524
Someone told me that.

1573
01:59:23,524 --> 01:59:24,524
But, you know,

1574
01:59:25,524 --> 01:59:26,524
after now they've been doing more engineering

1575
01:59:27,524 --> 01:59:28,524
or they're working on that problem or something.

1576
01:59:29,524 --> 01:59:30,524
And apparently now

1577
01:59:31,524 --> 01:59:32,524
you can look it up,

1578
01:59:32,524 --> 01:59:33,524
there's online calculators.

1579
01:59:34,524 --> 01:59:35,524
I asked some friends,

1580
01:59:36,524 --> 01:59:37,524
I asked some people who I thought would know.

1581
01:59:38,524 --> 01:59:39,524
I looked it up, I cross compared.

1582
01:59:40,524 --> 01:59:41,524
It's something like

1583
01:59:42,524 --> 01:59:43,524
$3,000 to $15,000 a year

1584
01:59:44,524 --> 01:59:45,524
to run a node

1585
01:59:46,524 --> 01:59:47,524
and now there's money more than one.

1586
01:59:48,424 --> 01:59:49,424
That's not Armageddon.

1587
01:59:50,424 --> 01:59:51,424
You know what I mean?

1588
01:59:52,424 --> 01:59:53,424
And if you had something like five of those,

1589
01:59:54,424 --> 01:59:55,424
that would be

1590
01:59:56,424 --> 01:59:57,424
enough to do

1591
01:59:58,424 --> 01:59:59,424
like 1.1 trillion transactions a year,

1592
02:00:00,424 --> 02:00:01,424
which was the whole,

1593
02:00:02,424 --> 02:00:03,424
the entire transaction volume of Earth.

1594
02:00:04,424 --> 02:00:05,424
As near as I could estimate it,

1595
02:00:06,424 --> 02:00:07,424
it's not easy to estimate such things.

1596
02:00:08,424 --> 02:00:09,424
But I gave it a try.

1597
02:00:10,424 --> 02:00:11,424
And that was kind of what I came up with.

1598
02:00:12,424 --> 02:00:13,424
So you see...

1599
02:00:14,324 --> 02:00:15,324
That's such a big blocker argument,

1600
02:00:16,324 --> 02:00:17,324
by the way.

1601
02:00:18,324 --> 02:00:19,324
It's not that much though.

1602
02:00:20,324 --> 02:00:21,324
You know what I mean?

1603
02:00:22,324 --> 02:00:23,324
The reason why large blocks on L1 is bad

1604
02:00:24,324 --> 02:00:25,324
is because everyone is a moral argument.

1605
02:00:26,324 --> 02:00:27,324
Everyone must pay

1606
02:00:28,324 --> 02:00:29,324
the cost to get in.

1607
02:00:30,324 --> 02:00:31,324
And so not only is it bad whenever that goes up,

1608
02:00:33,324 --> 02:00:34,324
it's just kind of bad

1609
02:00:35,324 --> 02:00:36,324
not to care about keeping it down.

1610
02:00:37,324 --> 02:00:38,324
Does that make sense?

1611
02:00:39,324 --> 02:00:40,324
You have to just

1612
02:00:41,324 --> 02:00:42,324
take a polite interest

1613
02:00:43,224 --> 02:00:44,224
in keeping it down.

1614
02:00:45,224 --> 02:00:46,224
Because if it goes up and up and up,

1615
02:00:47,224 --> 02:00:48,224
it'll be like the debt ceiling.

1616
02:00:49,224 --> 02:00:50,224
And then we'll be doomed.

1617
02:00:51,224 --> 02:00:52,224
But really, the actual numbers are not...

1618
02:00:53,224 --> 02:00:54,224
I mean, this is...

1619
02:00:55,224 --> 02:00:56,224
There's a lot of people out there

1620
02:00:57,224 --> 02:00:58,224
who can pay

1621
02:00:59,224 --> 02:01:00,224
$3,000 or $15,000 a year.

1622
02:01:01,224 --> 02:01:02,224
It's certainly...

1623
02:01:03,224 --> 02:01:04,224
I'm not suggesting we do...

1624
02:01:05,224 --> 02:01:06,224
But I have done my own math

1625
02:01:07,224 --> 02:01:08,224
on, for example,

1626
02:01:09,224 --> 02:01:10,224
if there were hypothetically...

1627
02:01:11,224 --> 02:01:12,224
I just did this for fun.

1628
02:01:13,124 --> 02:01:14,124
It's certainly unnecessary

1629
02:01:15,124 --> 02:01:16,124
that we would ever have to do this.

1630
02:01:17,124 --> 02:01:18,124
But I'm just saying

1631
02:01:19,124 --> 02:01:20,124
a one-gigabyte block size node,

1632
02:01:21,124 --> 02:01:22,124
I've calculated that to only be

1633
02:01:23,124 --> 02:01:24,124
like a few hundred dollars a month

1634
02:01:25,124 --> 02:01:26,124
and like two and a half thousand dollars up front.

1635
02:01:27,124 --> 02:01:28,124
And that was years ago.

1636
02:01:29,124 --> 02:01:30,124
I bet the cost has actually fallen.

1637
02:01:31,124 --> 02:01:32,124
And this does not include things

1638
02:01:33,124 --> 02:01:34,124
like keeping the bandwidth private,

1639
02:01:35,124 --> 02:01:36,124
which is very important.

1640
02:01:37,124 --> 02:01:38,124
But again, in my universe,

1641
02:01:39,124 --> 02:01:40,124
there's special chains for privacy only

1642
02:01:41,124 --> 02:01:42,124
that are slightly more expensive.

1643
02:01:43,124 --> 02:01:44,124
And there's other chains

1644
02:01:45,124 --> 02:01:46,124
that are less decentralized,

1645
02:01:47,124 --> 02:01:48,124
less private, but cheaper

1646
02:01:49,124 --> 02:01:50,124
and easier to run.

1647
02:01:51,124 --> 02:01:52,124
So I think you have a big space

1648
02:01:53,124 --> 02:01:54,124
of all these different chains

1649
02:01:55,124 --> 02:01:56,124
of every different shape and size.

1650
02:01:57,124 --> 02:01:58,124
And so that is not...

1651
02:01:59,124 --> 02:02:00,124
And you would only...

1652
02:02:01,124 --> 02:02:02,124
One, that's complete and total overkill.

1653
02:02:03,124 --> 02:02:04,124
And even you'd have to get up

1654
02:02:05,124 --> 02:02:06,124
to nine of those

1655
02:02:07,124 --> 02:02:08,124
and then you would have

1656
02:02:09,124 --> 02:02:10,124
the transaction throughput of the world.

1657
02:02:11,024 --> 02:02:12,024
But they would be geographically distributed.

1658
02:02:13,024 --> 02:02:14,024
So you'd have like the North America one,

1659
02:02:15,024 --> 02:02:16,024
and you'd have like the Europe one,

1660
02:02:18,024 --> 02:02:21,024
the Asia one, whatever.

1661
02:02:24,024 --> 02:02:25,024
Rest of world.

1662
02:02:28,024 --> 02:02:29,024
So you'd probably only need to run the one.

1663
02:02:33,024 --> 02:02:34,024
It's just not like...

1664
02:02:35,024 --> 02:02:37,024
If it were impossible...

1665
02:02:37,924 --> 02:02:38,924
And just think also,

1666
02:02:39,924 --> 02:02:40,924
everyone's getting rich.

1667
02:02:41,924 --> 02:02:42,924
Just on average,

1668
02:02:43,924 --> 02:02:44,924
laws of economics,

1669
02:02:45,924 --> 02:02:46,924
every human being is getting wealthier

1670
02:02:47,924 --> 02:02:48,924
in terms of how much money

1671
02:02:49,924 --> 02:02:50,924
the average person gets in an average year.

1672
02:02:51,924 --> 02:02:52,924
And the costs of all these things,

1673
02:02:53,924 --> 02:02:56,924
bandwidth, CPU, hard drive,

1674
02:02:57,924 --> 02:02:58,924
those things are all falling.

1675
02:02:59,924 --> 02:03:00,924
And then with the right engineering,

1676
02:03:01,924 --> 02:03:02,924
like Solana correctly shows

1677
02:03:03,924 --> 02:03:04,924
that you can take a problem

1678
02:03:05,924 --> 02:03:06,924
that's really, really, really difficult

1679
02:03:07,924 --> 02:03:08,924
and you find what's the bottleneck?

1680
02:03:09,924 --> 02:03:10,924
Why is it...

1681
02:03:11,924 --> 02:03:12,924
What's the thing that's costing us the most?

1682
02:03:13,924 --> 02:03:14,924
We'll focus our engineering on that.

1683
02:03:15,924 --> 02:03:16,924
Okay, what's the next bottleneck?

1684
02:03:17,924 --> 02:03:18,924
What's the next...

1685
02:03:19,924 --> 02:03:20,924
Sometimes it's just one little thing,

1686
02:03:21,924 --> 02:03:23,924
one little misconfigured database

1687
02:03:24,924 --> 02:03:25,924
or some memory leak or something

1688
02:03:26,924 --> 02:03:28,924
that makes it 100 times more expensive.

1689
02:03:29,924 --> 02:03:30,924
So you fix that or you optimize

1690
02:03:31,924 --> 02:03:32,924
or you parallelize something

1691
02:03:33,924 --> 02:03:34,924
that can be parallel.

1692
02:03:35,924 --> 02:03:36,924
You know what I mean?

1693
02:03:37,824 --> 02:03:38,824
If you couldn't do them on GPUs,

1694
02:03:39,824 --> 02:03:40,824
they would be impossible.

1695
02:03:41,824 --> 02:03:42,824
But because we've already lived in a world

1696
02:03:43,824 --> 02:03:45,824
where people buy nice gaming hardware

1697
02:03:46,824 --> 02:03:47,824
and use it for mining even,

1698
02:03:48,824 --> 02:03:49,824
that the GPUs are so strong,

1699
02:03:50,824 --> 02:03:51,824
something that would normally

1700
02:03:52,824 --> 02:03:53,824
not be computable

1701
02:03:54,824 --> 02:03:55,824
in a human lifetime can be...

1702
02:03:56,824 --> 02:03:57,824
Everyone can download Midjourney

1703
02:03:58,824 --> 02:03:59,824
and have it run on their desktop

1704
02:04:00,824 --> 02:04:01,824
and just use their own GPU and do it.

1705
02:04:02,824 --> 02:04:03,824
So I don't know if it's Midjourney literally,

1706
02:04:04,824 --> 02:04:05,824
but it's like some clone or something.

1707
02:04:06,724 --> 02:04:07,724
My friend just did it.

1708
02:04:08,724 --> 02:04:09,724
I saw him do it on his own computer.

1709
02:04:10,724 --> 02:04:11,724
You don't dial out to the...

1710
02:04:12,724 --> 02:04:13,724
It just has the weights.

1711
02:04:14,724 --> 02:04:15,724
You just do it yourself.

1712
02:04:16,724 --> 02:04:17,724
So what I'm trying to say is

1713
02:04:18,724 --> 02:04:19,724
the cost is not...

1714
02:04:20,724 --> 02:04:21,724
If you do the math

1715
02:04:22,724 --> 02:04:23,724
and then it's like this would cost...

1716
02:04:24,724 --> 02:04:25,724
This would quickly become

1717
02:04:26,724 --> 02:04:28,724
40 trillion terabytes of space

1718
02:04:29,724 --> 02:04:30,724
or something,

1719
02:04:31,724 --> 02:04:32,724
and then you know that it's not feasible.

1720
02:04:33,724 --> 02:04:34,724
With this certain type of L2,

1721
02:04:35,624 --> 02:04:36,624
you can also do UTXO commitments

1722
02:04:37,624 --> 02:04:38,624
and throw out old state and stuff.

1723
02:04:39,624 --> 02:04:40,624
You do other optimizations

1724
02:04:41,624 --> 02:04:42,624
that you think will help.

1725
02:04:43,624 --> 02:04:46,624
So the reality is

1726
02:04:47,624 --> 02:04:48,624
it's just not that big of a...

1727
02:04:50,624 --> 02:04:51,624
Because this is the contrast

1728
02:04:52,624 --> 02:04:53,624
between RGB

1729
02:04:54,624 --> 02:04:57,624
and other type of sidechain L2.

1730
02:04:57,958 --> 02:05:00,798
Like a type of sidechain L2 is that you don't need...

1731
02:05:02,158 --> 02:05:07,198
It's just not... You've got to figure out like where are we spending a ton of money?

1732
02:05:08,398 --> 02:05:12,318
Is it good to spend tons and tons of time on software engineering

1733
02:05:13,558 --> 02:05:16,038
and then not release something for 10 years?

1734
02:05:17,998 --> 02:05:20,438
By then, it may be a completely different problem.

1735
02:05:20,478 --> 02:05:22,238
This type of thing happens all the time.

1736
02:05:22,638 --> 02:05:24,958
There's a whole book about this called The Innovator's Dilemma

1737
02:05:25,598 --> 02:05:32,998
about the innovation changes, the consumer's expectations change,

1738
02:05:33,038 --> 02:05:36,758
all the other parts of the economy will change.

1739
02:05:37,278 --> 02:05:42,278
So you can get very good at building a certain thing that people no longer want.

1740
02:05:44,798 --> 02:05:51,438
You can build the best horse and buggy carriage and you finally finish it

1741
02:05:51,438 --> 02:05:54,278
and that's the year the car goes mainstream or something like that.

1742
02:05:55,438 --> 02:06:04,918
So things have a... It's very tricky to figure out which thing...

1743
02:06:04,958 --> 02:06:08,238
So I'm just saying that I don't see it as a big deal.

1744
02:06:10,958 --> 02:06:14,838
And that's for a one gigabyte node, which we would be nowhere near that starting
off.

1745
02:06:14,878 --> 02:06:15,998
It would be one one-hundredth.

1746
02:06:18,118 --> 02:06:19,878
First of all, Paul, that's a giga meg.

1747
02:06:22,438 --> 02:06:25,158
Yeah, giga meg.

1748
02:06:26,638 --> 02:06:27,958
I'm not sure if you get the reference.

1749
02:06:27,998 --> 02:06:32,158
We pour one out for whatever, Calvin Air's money.

1750
02:06:32,558 --> 02:06:39,758
Let's drink to all the money Calvin Air spent on Craig

1751
02:06:39,798 --> 02:06:42,358
that he could have spent on something else.

1752
02:06:44,358 --> 02:06:45,638
I'm going to drink to that.

1753
02:06:46,078 --> 02:06:47,078
We'll drink to that.

1754
02:06:47,238 --> 02:06:51,078
Just think of he could have spent it on any number of vices.

1755
02:06:51,838 --> 02:06:52,838
Or...

1756
02:06:54,318 --> 02:06:58,598
I mean, this was a pretty dangerous vice, I got to admit.

1757
02:07:07,158 --> 02:07:08,638
Did you eat before this?

1758
02:07:08,678 --> 02:07:12,398
Because you seem to be much better at ingesting the alcohol

1759
02:07:12,438 --> 02:07:13,918
or maybe you have more practice.

1760
02:07:17,838 --> 02:07:18,958
I ate a big meal.

1761
02:07:19,838 --> 02:07:25,158
And, you know, it's also not great to drink right after eating,

1762
02:07:25,198 --> 02:07:28,718
but I think I left just the right amount of time in between,

1763
02:07:28,758 --> 02:07:29,758
so I'm nice and full.

1764
02:07:29,878 --> 02:07:33,038
I had my delicious lobster ravioli pasta.

1765
02:07:33,078 --> 02:07:34,078
It was so good.

1766
02:07:35,758 --> 02:07:37,958
Yeah, the Polish lunch, right?

1767
02:07:38,478 --> 02:07:39,478
It was so good.

1768
02:07:40,718 --> 02:07:41,718
Delicious.

1769
02:07:42,598 --> 02:07:46,518
Anyway, it was revealed in the chat that Coco,

1770
02:07:46,558 --> 02:07:48,358
who has been commenting on stuff,

1771
02:07:48,918 --> 02:07:53,118
is actually Hampus, who is the lead developer of Blix Wallet.

1772
02:07:53,518 --> 02:07:54,518
So, hi, Hampus.

1773
02:07:54,718 --> 02:07:55,718
Hampus is great.

1774
02:07:56,798 --> 02:07:57,918
We should hire Hampus.

1775
02:07:59,398 --> 02:08:00,398
Maybe we shouldn't, though.

1776
02:08:00,438 --> 02:08:03,318
That would undermine his credibility as a complimenter.

1777
02:08:04,438 --> 02:08:07,798
Are you basically saying that anyone who gets hired by LayerTwo Labs

1778
02:08:07,838 --> 02:08:09,878
has his credibility compromised?

1779
02:08:10,518 --> 02:08:14,038
You know, it's kind of weird because there's a joke.

1780
02:08:14,358 --> 02:08:16,238
Nassim Taleb used to tell this joke about...

1781
02:08:16,718 --> 02:08:18,558
They'd ask him, what about a conflict of interest?

1782
02:08:18,598 --> 02:08:21,598
And he would say, no conflict, no interest,

1783
02:08:21,798 --> 02:08:25,198
which was something like, it was a skin in the game thing.

1784
02:08:26,438 --> 02:08:29,558
If that guy's not in on, if he's not getting something out of the deal,

1785
02:08:30,558 --> 02:08:32,038
then he doesn't want in on the deal.

1786
02:08:33,078 --> 02:08:37,398
So it's kind of like, kind of an ironic twist of the thing.

1787
02:08:37,438 --> 02:08:38,438
You know what I mean?

1788
02:08:38,478 --> 02:08:39,478
Is this making any sense?

1789
02:08:39,758 --> 02:08:41,798
He's saying, normally you'd say, OK,

1790
02:08:41,798 --> 02:08:46,398
you're promoting, you say you should buy this type of car

1791
02:08:46,438 --> 02:08:48,038
because you get a 10% kickback.

1792
02:08:48,558 --> 02:08:50,078
You get money if they buy the car.

1793
02:08:50,998 --> 02:08:54,518
That's a conflict of interest because maybe they care about your interests,

1794
02:08:54,558 --> 02:08:57,758
but maybe they also care about the 10% they get if they sell his car.

1795
02:08:58,838 --> 02:09:00,918
But Nassim Taleb kind of flips it around.

1796
02:09:00,958 --> 02:09:03,878
He says, I don't want to do business with people

1797
02:09:03,918 --> 02:09:07,158
who are pretending to look after my interests.

1798
02:09:07,158 --> 02:09:12,558
That's a weak read to lean on, you know, that's flaky and kind of suspicious.

1799
02:09:13,558 --> 02:09:14,958
So he's saying something like,

1800
02:09:16,958 --> 02:09:18,758
I want them to get something out of this.

1801
02:09:18,798 --> 02:09:20,318
You can rely on that.

1802
02:09:20,358 --> 02:09:23,758
This is a you can always count on whatever, a selfish person.

1803
02:09:23,798 --> 02:09:26,118
I thought this was unfair when this argument was applied.

1804
02:09:26,158 --> 02:09:28,998
It was used, this was used to critique Blockstream back in the day.

1805
02:09:29,038 --> 02:09:32,198
They say a Blockstream hires all the people who agree with them,

1806
02:09:32,238 --> 02:09:33,198
which are certainly true.

1807
02:09:33,238 --> 02:09:35,238
But they're not the only people who agree with them.

1808
02:09:35,238 --> 02:09:37,638
All the people who agree with them, which are certainly true.

1809
02:09:37,678 --> 02:09:42,678
But it's kind of like, what should you do if you agree with someone?

1810
02:09:42,718 --> 02:09:45,438
You know, like you should hire them.

1811
02:09:45,478 --> 02:09:51,798
Like, it's bad if it leads to people lying about what they really think.

1812
02:09:51,838 --> 02:09:57,038
But it's it's also bad if you have a bunch of people who all agree,

1813
02:09:57,078 --> 02:10:00,678
but they feel like, oh, if we cooperate, we'll this will be seen as.

1814
02:10:01,918 --> 02:10:03,678
Something negative, I mean, that's.

1815
02:10:06,038 --> 02:10:07,518
I don't think that's a good idea either.

1816
02:10:10,678 --> 02:10:12,598
Cooperation is, you know.

1817
02:10:15,278 --> 02:10:16,038
Usually good.

1818
02:10:18,198 --> 02:10:23,558
I mean, including Blockstream seem to monopolize Bitcoin development for a while,

1819
02:10:23,598 --> 02:10:25,998
but then their developers started to leave.

1820
02:10:27,878 --> 02:10:32,438
I think it was, you know, to be to be honest, I think it was not even Blockstream.

1821
02:10:32,438 --> 02:10:40,078
It was it was mostly it was just the character of Greg Maxwell just loomed so much.

1822
02:10:40,118 --> 02:10:42,638
It was almost like I think it was really mainly him.

1823
02:10:42,678 --> 02:10:44,638
And the fact that he was at Blockstream was mostly.

1824
02:10:45,958 --> 02:10:49,958
It's like it made it look like Blockstream was influential, but it was really it was
really him.

1825
02:10:51,718 --> 02:10:53,878
The other thing is Blockstream wasn't really that influential,

1826
02:10:53,918 --> 02:10:59,158
is mostly like it very quickly became like Chaincode Labs or something had a higher
number.

1827
02:10:59,198 --> 02:11:02,118
I don't know if that's true, but I think it probably was true.

1828
02:11:02,118 --> 02:11:03,118
Like twenty seventeen.

1829
02:11:04,238 --> 02:11:05,838
At least maybe earlier.

1830
02:11:08,198 --> 02:11:12,918
I don't know, but, you know, the interesting thing about Blockstream is how little
is actually done.

1831
02:11:14,678 --> 02:11:15,678
They are no offense.

1832
02:11:15,718 --> 02:11:17,038
I mean, they do do a lot of things.

1833
02:11:17,078 --> 02:11:18,478
They have a lot of like bullet points.

1834
02:11:19,118 --> 02:11:22,918
They have like Jade Wallet, the satellite.

1835
02:11:22,958 --> 02:11:26,238
They have. So it probably looks great on PowerPoint, but.

1836
02:11:27,038 --> 02:11:28,038
Uh.

1837
02:11:29,718 --> 02:11:40,478
Where's the Zcast sidechain, as I'm saying, that's why I built it, because that's
that's like number one thing that people should want to have and that we should get,
we deserve, we all deserve to use it and we should all.

1838
02:11:40,518 --> 02:11:55,838
Yeah, Paul, but let me take it to another territory and I'm getting drunker and I'm
less articulate, but you're the kind of person who looks into the kind of innovation
that happens on other chains.

1839
02:11:55,838 --> 02:11:57,638
Right. You looked at Zcash.

1840
02:11:57,998 --> 02:12:06,438
They were able to do these Halo 2 transactions, which are smaller than SegWit
transactions, and they're also privacy friendly.

1841
02:12:06,838 --> 02:12:16,718
But the conversation and Bitcoin still to this day is that confidential transactions
are too large and they don't scale and they're terrible.

1842
02:12:16,798 --> 02:12:18,758
And therefore, we should not ever have them.

1843
02:12:19,718 --> 02:12:22,998
Nobody. I mean, it's a bad idea to say nobody.

1844
02:12:22,998 --> 02:12:29,478
Very few people look into other chains to see what because it's not just shit
coinery.

1845
02:12:29,678 --> 02:12:37,598
Of course, they have the shit coin, but there is the cryptographic stuff that's
being built and it's being researched sometimes for other purposes.

1846
02:12:37,638 --> 02:12:44,078
But Zcash has UTXOs, has an architecture very similar to Bitcoin's and has an opt in
privacy.

1847
02:12:44,718 --> 02:12:45,718
So.

1848
02:12:46,278 --> 02:12:52,918
Theoretically, we can take their signatures and soft fork them into Bitcoin and make
Bitcoin more efficient.

1849
02:12:53,998 --> 02:13:00,998
I think Zucco actually was one of the first people to blog about Bitcoin back in
2009.

1850
02:13:01,478 --> 02:13:13,878
So I'm pretty sure that he's playing some sort of villain part right now, trying to
say, no, Bitcoin is not good enough and Zcash is the HTTP, HTTPS.

1851
02:13:14,198 --> 02:13:15,398
I remember him saying that.

1852
02:13:15,718 --> 02:13:17,118
Yeah, it was his metaphor.

1853
02:13:17,398 --> 02:13:22,478
But I'm pretty sure that he's building something that will be useful for Bitcoin at
one point.

1854
02:13:23,078 --> 02:13:32,278
But what I'm trying to say here is that you take your time to research what other
chains are doing, whereas Blockstream does not.

1855
02:13:32,798 --> 02:13:39,158
So Blockstream would never say, let's have a Zcash sidechain because, first of all,
it's not engineered by them.

1856
02:13:39,638 --> 02:13:48,878
And secondly, they're still promoting their own technology, which is confidential
transactions that are based on some 2014, 2015 research.

1857
02:13:49,878 --> 02:13:51,598
By this time, it's pretty obsolete.

1858
02:13:51,598 --> 02:13:55,998
Not even, does Monero still use that, if someone knows?

1859
02:13:55,998 --> 02:14:04,198
I think they use bulletproofs, but a bulletproof is still more than three times
larger than a, at last I checked, which may, this may have changed.

1860
02:14:04,198 --> 02:14:05,878
I think it was 2019 that I last checked.

1861
02:14:05,878 --> 02:14:07,278
So that's actually been a long time.

1862
02:14:08,518 --> 02:14:14,598
But there's still more than like three times larger than like a normal 200 byte
Bitcoin transaction.

1863
02:14:15,598 --> 02:14:19,318
I don't know if they, they must have gone on to something else.

1864
02:14:19,318 --> 02:14:23,958
See, this is funny, even I, you say I look into these things, but there's an awful
lot to look into.

1865
02:14:24,638 --> 02:14:26,638
It's very easy to forget.

1866
02:14:26,638 --> 02:14:28,958
But I think, I don't know.

1867
02:14:28,958 --> 02:14:30,478
I don't know if they are doing that or not.

1868
02:14:31,678 --> 02:14:33,078
Someone can probably look that up.

1869
02:14:35,278 --> 02:14:37,158
And they can probably look up the size also.

1870
02:14:38,918 --> 02:14:41,198
Size of a Monero transaction in bytes.

1871
02:14:43,038 --> 02:14:44,478
Someone can probably look it up, I bet.

1872
02:14:45,158 --> 02:14:53,078
Maybe it's just marketing, but with their latest cryptography, Zcash claims to have
been able to have transactions smaller than a hundred bytes.

1873
02:14:55,078 --> 02:14:59,238
Yeah, that doesn't sound right, but maybe it is, I don't know, it could be.

1874
02:15:00,318 --> 02:15:10,118
That would be really cool if so, because, you know, a Bitcoin transaction is at
least, even for Schnorr signature of 64 bytes, and then to select the input is 36.

1875
02:15:10,278 --> 02:15:22,118
So that's like minimum possible, would be, I think we cannot possibly get them less
than 96 bytes.

1876
02:15:22,118 --> 02:15:37,238
Even when I have, I've said if we strip them down completely and we encoded them in
a totally different way, like we have a pointless four byte version number at the
beginning of every transaction that we don't use, we never use, can count to four
billion.

1877
02:15:38,238 --> 02:15:46,878
But let's just say we're on, we're not using it at all.

1878
02:15:46,878 --> 02:15:55,118
So that's four wasted bytes, really, you should have one for version, but it's
definitely three wasted bytes.

1879
02:15:55,118 --> 02:15:58,758
And then, you know, almost no one uses the lock time.

1880
02:15:59,678 --> 02:16:00,598
Lots of things are unused.

1881
02:16:00,598 --> 02:16:05,998
So I wrote a blog post called Small Transactions, I think.

1882
02:16:06,558 --> 02:16:10,758
And I think I can only get it, barely get it into the double digits.

1883
02:16:11,438 --> 02:16:13,878
So that would be neat if that, it may be the case.

1884
02:16:14,398 --> 02:16:20,438
I don't know how they count the bytes, but we could see it's possible.

1885
02:16:21,278 --> 02:16:22,478
If so, then that's great.

1886
02:16:22,478 --> 02:16:26,678
You know, that's exactly the kind of thing we should just copy and take.

1887
02:16:27,838 --> 02:16:29,278
I don't know why we wouldn't do that.

1888
02:16:30,078 --> 02:16:39,918
And it is a case of people doing the wrong, morally the wrong thing, because they're
making Bitcoin, the project, worse so that they look better.

1889
02:16:41,478 --> 02:16:44,078
Which is just immoral.

1890
02:16:44,918 --> 02:16:54,478
Yeah, but the philosophy of maximalism has always been that you take whatever has
been built somewhere else and you put it on top of Bitcoin.

1891
02:16:54,838 --> 02:17:00,998
And the arguments for Bitcoin are always that it's the best form of money.

1892
02:17:01,278 --> 02:17:03,158
It's the most resilient network.

1893
02:17:03,718 --> 02:17:06,398
It's the one that's actually decentralized.

1894
02:17:07,118 --> 02:17:08,998
Well, yeah, that's the case.

1895
02:17:09,038 --> 02:17:11,998
But people no longer believe that.

1896
02:17:12,758 --> 02:17:35,398
That used to be, used to just people would just say, listen, all this stuff is open
source, so it can't, it can't be any other way, other than that Bitcoin will just
have the best ZK, SNARK, and never even crossed anyone's mind that there would be
something that disabled the

1897
02:17:36,078 --> 02:17:40,598
open source inventions from making it onto Bitcoin.

1898
02:17:40,598 --> 02:17:47,438
And that is everyone who is obstructing these soft forks, you know, such as CTV or
OP_CAT.

1899
02:17:48,518 --> 02:17:59,118
No one would ever have dreamed, if you would go back to 2015, no one would ever have
dreamed that there would be stuff like this that would that would be ready to go.

1900
02:17:59,118 --> 02:18:04,718
And yet the barrier to getting it in would be, I don't know, Twitter or something.

1901
02:18:05,158 --> 02:18:17,278
But what it really is, is the apathy of the miners and their neglect of their duty
and responsibility to maximize the value of Bitcoin and maximize their own profits.

1902
02:18:18,198 --> 02:18:24,278
But they just, I don't know, they're too lazy to, they don't realize that they can,
you know, they can like 100x.

1903
02:18:24,518 --> 02:18:30,078
I mean, one weird idea I thought about, I kicked around this idea, it's kind of one
of those screwball ideas.

1904
02:18:30,358 --> 02:18:53,278
I thought I could maybe go to, like, you know, make this insane pitch to someone
like, you know, a big investment bank and just say, I will buy up, you know, a huge
percentage, 50% of the hardware, the hash rate, and then I will aggressively
maximize the value of Bitcoin technologically.

1905
02:18:53,958 --> 02:18:57,758
Think about how this would make me the villain in most Bitcoin stories, but I would
really be the savior.

1906
02:18:58,158 --> 02:19:09,118
And aggressively maximize the tech stack and maximize the transaction throughput and
the transaction fee revenue and the price of the coin, the utility and price of the
coin.

1907
02:19:09,838 --> 02:19:18,998
And then if you can, you can force hyper Bitcoinization to come and you own more
than half of the mining, it's kind of a corporate takeover.

1908
02:19:19,718 --> 02:19:25,278
And then the value of that equipment would go up astronomically.

1909
02:19:26,558 --> 02:19:32,758
So you would be able to, because even though the difficulty would adjust, it would
take a little while to adjust.

1910
02:19:33,758 --> 02:19:51,678
And in that time, you would have to adjust as more, like, hash rate came online, so
that you would have a solid chunk of time where you're just printing Bitcoin that
you mine at a certain rate, but that you acquired the hash rate at a certain, a
lower equilibrium difficulty.

1911
02:19:52,478 --> 02:20:00,038
So then you could pay back the, you know, you could whatever, however you finance to
this, this maneuver.

1912
02:20:00,518 --> 02:20:03,438
But that's just kind of like a weird idea, I think.

1913
02:20:05,318 --> 02:20:08,558
I don't really plan on doing that, but I just think it is weird.

1914
02:20:08,718 --> 02:20:16,278
It's not physically possible because I don't think there is a large enough supply of
ASIC miners available on the market.

1915
02:20:17,278 --> 02:20:29,958
And if you try to go around and pay a premium for whatever was what you, you know,
you try to track down people who and say, I'm going to need to, I want to buy your
whole operation from you for twice what it's currently worth.

1916
02:20:34,318 --> 02:20:39,998
I mean, yeah, but you also have to understand that there are lots of miners who are
ideological as opposed to.

1917
02:20:39,998 --> 02:20:59,318
Yeah, well, but the problem with that is the ideological miners, they are the ones,
I don't think that, I think that quite a few miners, like, so for example, let me
tell you, one, I'm pretty sure that most miners, like, they have no idea what
Taproot was at all.

1918
02:21:00,198 --> 02:21:12,518
You know, so like, even big miners, the pool would call them and ask them or would
try to get information like, hey, should we signal for a speedy trial or whatever
for Taproot?

1919
02:21:13,558 --> 02:21:15,038
And they would just be like, what's Taproot?

1920
02:21:15,198 --> 02:21:16,398
They have no idea what it is.

1921
02:21:16,478 --> 02:21:37,118
So I think they, the, in terms of, as a significant percentage of the hash rate,
ideological, I would say that mostly, much more than 50% of it is completely
ignorant of these matters and of their own response, indirect responsibility for
this, this mess.

1922
02:21:37,878 --> 02:21:43,758
Most of it is because of SegWit2x and the scaling war and then, but you know, it's
also like the miners could also fix that.

1923
02:21:43,758 --> 02:22:02,598
They could just say, in a way, they, there's a new blockade, the past blockade of
SegWit, that was wrong, but now we've replied to that by doing the same mistake
where we just don't activate these softworks that are, we have a new SegWit
blockade, which is just for OP_CAT instead.

1924
02:22:02,598 --> 02:22:28,838
And the miners, instead of blocking it actively, are just, they're blocking with
this sort of apathy and neglect of these, the scenario, which they should not, they
should not do, and they will, they'll collectively make much more money if they were
to stop doing this, but for some reason, it's just very complicated to them, I
suppose, or they don't want to, I don't know, I can't really explain it.

1925
02:22:33,598 --> 02:22:42,198
Maybe that they're afraid that they're going to use some of their users if they take
sides in politics.

1926
02:22:42,598 --> 02:22:56,678
So far, I think the miners have been super nice, maybe because the fees and the
incentives added up and they have been profitable, but it seems like mining pools
stayed out of politics.

1927
02:22:57,678 --> 02:23:16,678
I know, but they, the apathy and neglect is, that's different than, to not get
involved is not always the right decision, you know, George Orwell wrote something
about, it's not possible to be neutral in a war such as the current one, he was
talking about World War II.

1928
02:23:17,678 --> 02:23:33,678
You know, some people tried, but then, like Switzerland, but then they get made fun
of, people would say, oh, you know, do you need help storing your gold, Hitler? What
have you been up to lately? Oh, wait, don't tell me, I want to be able to say that I
don't know.

1929
02:23:33,678 --> 02:23:51,678
I remember seeing John Oliver make that joke in like 2003 or something. So, but
yeah, there's certain things you really shouldn't be neutral in the face of, you
know, they're not, especially when they affect you in a negative way.

1930
02:23:52,678 --> 02:24:12,678
I mean, I'm not saying how it should be or how it shouldn't be, I'm just observing
that the miners so far have been pretty apathetic to politics. I mean, there was
that whole situation with Bitmain, I think, and that's where it changed. Jihan was
very active in politics.

1931
02:24:13,678 --> 02:24:26,678
Right. Well, that was the problem, was they, I thought they had a number of very
mistaken beliefs, so they did not look into it the right way. And we all suffer as a
result.

1932
02:24:27,678 --> 02:24:45,678
I mean, you know what I mean, right? Like they saying, the idea that we should burn
a hard fork to 2x the block size is not a great idea. And it was, you know, it was
not, it was a very unpopular idea.

1933
02:24:45,678 --> 02:25:14,678
There were other things they could have done. Could have done a lot of things
differently. So it was, they didn't have an answer to how big should the block size
actually be then. And in fact, plenty of people said, such people such as Gavin
Andreessen, they said something, stuff like, nobody is advocating an unlimited block
size.

1934
02:25:15,678 --> 02:25:31,678
So you had someone who wanted a large blocker saying, unlimited block size is bad.
Just flatly saying that. So this just opens the question. All I'm saying is, is
confusing from a messaging point of view.

1935
02:25:31,678 --> 02:25:51,678
Like, what do they think the number should be? What is the principle of the matter,
rather than just should the line be drawn at 1 million versus 4 million versus 2
million versus 8 million? Very few people had, only Luke was one of the few people
who said the block size should be smaller, and he had an actual reason.

1936
02:25:51,678 --> 02:26:13,678
He had numbers based on initial block download and things like that. So he was one
of the few people that had an actual principle of the matter. And plenty of people
just said, this is the status quo. This is what the protocol was when I bought these
coins. This is the deal. I want to be able to run a node. This is going to make my
node more expensive. I'm complaining. I don't want to do this.

1937
02:26:14,678 --> 02:26:29,678
So a couple people had that principle. But the people who are trying to do the hard
fork, the hard fork is a serious business. It's saying, we're bending a rule. We're
going to break a rule.

1938
02:26:29,678 --> 02:26:51,678
And they should have explained, this is what we're going to change the block size to
this formula, like permanently or something. And this idea of we'll just hard fork
it again when it hits the ceiling, well, then that's just an unlimited block size,
just with more steps.

1939
02:26:51,678 --> 02:27:11,678
So they didn't really answer a lot of these questions, like how expensive is too
expensive for a full node to get? Some of them said, oh, it doesn't matter how
expensive it gets. Then you could ask, what if it would cost an infinite amount to
run a full node? And they'd say, well, that's not a real – you say, well, you said
it didn't matter.

1940
02:27:11,678 --> 02:27:40,678
So it wasn't – that was kind of a messed – that was kind of a screwed up scenario.
And it's unfortunate that now because of that, we now cannot – we live in a world
where people, I don't know, cannot easily talk about these relatively simple and
good things.

1941
02:27:40,678 --> 02:27:45,678
It's become political and weird. Yeah, I don't know.

1942
02:28:11,678 --> 02:28:20,678
We're not talking that much about it. And it seems like it's almost taboo because we
have these – we have an ETF nowadays.

1943
02:28:20,678 --> 02:28:38,678
He does not like the idea of – I mean, I strongly got the impression that he does
not like the idea of the Zcash sidechain. He doesn't think anyone should talk about
it or bring it up or even like should even be spoken about.

1944
02:28:38,678 --> 02:28:56,678
But he said this in a BTC Times interview. It's called Michael Saylor on Bitcoin's
Next Billion Huddlers. It's an interview with Elaine Wu or Elaine Au. I'm not sure
how you pronounce that. It's O-U.

1945
02:28:56,678 --> 02:29:08,678
And he says, and these are quotes, stop talking about regulatory arbitrage,
censorship resistance, privacy and tax evasion because they're bad ideas. We hate
that.

1946
02:29:08,678 --> 02:29:24,678
And then Elaine added, the conversation began with a huge letdown. I asked Michael
Saylor what could motivate greater institutional investment in Bitcoin. After all,
if Bitcoin is going to the moon, we're going to need a lot of deep pockets to climb
on board.

1947
02:29:24,678 --> 02:29:45,678
And this is another quote. People with billions of dollars don't want to invest in
crypto networks that support anarchists, Saylor explained. Anything that advertises
privacy and freedom from government theft becomes a direct enemy of the FBI,
Interpol and every other law enforcement agency on the planet.

1948
02:29:45,678 --> 02:30:01,678
I asked Saylor if this was a marketing problem. And he replied, it's a matter of
emphasis. The industry would benefit if we didn't call Bitcoin a cryptocurrency, but
a crypto asset.

1949
02:30:01,826 --> 02:30:14,826
As a currency, Bitcoin not only competes with the Treasury and the Federal Reserve,
it also implies a payment network to compete with Square, Apple Pay, Alipay and
other services that are both faster and cheaper.

1950
02:30:15,826 --> 02:30:35,826
Anyway, this was from 2020, from December 2020. So it was still Michael Saylor's
first year when he was still cool and everyone was calling themselves a cyber
hornet, was submissive to the giga Chad, and they were happy that he was pumping our
bags.

1951
02:30:36,826 --> 02:30:46,826
And somehow this interview flew under the radar. It was not too much promoted. This
was three years ago, three years ago and one month.

1952
02:30:47,826 --> 02:31:03,826
Let me finish. Since then, he was able to establish the Bitcoin Mining Council in
North America. And he's basically creating this framework of self-regulation for
what miners should do in North America.

1953
02:31:03,826 --> 02:31:23,826
And this was in response to Elon Musk's criticism that Bitcoin mining is damaging
the environment. And this was the reason why he supposedly, I suppose it had nothing
to do with manipulating markets, but he removed Bitcoin as a payment method from the
Tesla store.

1954
02:31:23,826 --> 02:31:43,826
So it seems like Michael Saylor became part of the culture. He's ingrained with what
Bitcoin is. I know people on Twitter slash X who claim that Michael Saylor is
Satoshi and he finally returned and right now he is proving to the rest of the world
how they should invest in this.

1955
02:31:43,826 --> 02:31:55,826
And MicroStrategy is leveraged into Bitcoin. They have a pretty low leverage, but
it's still leveraged. And they print more shares, they sell them to raise money and
they buy more Bitcoin.

1956
02:31:55,826 --> 02:32:17,826
But their intentions are totally the opposite of the intentions of those who first
got into Bitcoin and saw some value in it. They didn't care much about the stock
market. They didn't want this to be necessarily a commodity, something that you
trade on institutional trading desks.

1957
02:32:17,826 --> 02:32:35,826
They just wanted to compete with the dollar. They wanted to create a parallel
monetary network. It seems like we are losing that focus. Even with the Lightning
Network, which was supposed to be the fast way to move Bitcoins right now, they're
investing most money into putting the dollar on it.

1958
02:32:35,826 --> 02:32:57,826
And some of the privacy features that were presented for Lightning are no longer a
priority. I don't know. Even in the case of Lightning Labs, they were working on
improving it, but they got a lot of funding for Taro, which was renamed as Taproot
Assets. And they're working on that one.

1959
02:32:57,826 --> 02:33:19,826
So a long rant, but I don't think many of the ideas that you're presenting with the
stuff that we're not mentioning are going to get much traction in the future. Maybe
some OGs are going to care about that and provide liquidity, but the new users,
they're going to scream shitcoin and big blocks.

1960
02:33:20,826 --> 02:33:46,826
Well, I think there's more to it. It's not just like a matter of taste. When Michael
Saylor joined, of course, it was COVID. Everyone was locked down. The government was
printing a lot of money. So in that context, it was much easier to just think of it
as a thing that has 21 million units and that you just buy and it will just go up,
the inflation hedge.

1961
02:33:46,826 --> 02:34:14,826
I think, though, that if there was the Bitcoin Uncensored crew from 2015, 2016,
2017, there was an argument that went something like this. If it becomes too
friendly to regulation, everyone will just use custodial Lightning, everyone will
own Bitcoin through the ETF, everything will be fully regulated and fully compliant.

1962
02:34:17,826 --> 02:34:26,826
If it goes down that road, it will eventually have to compete with something like
issued by whatever, PayPal or Venmo.

1963
02:34:27,826 --> 02:34:37,826
And Venmo always have an edge because actually the blockchain database is very
inefficient. The database can scale to unlimited size.

1964
02:34:38,826 --> 02:34:55,826
So if people wanted to issue Visa coin or something, they could use whatever, SQL or
something. They could just have a database of everyone's account information and
everyone's balance.

1965
02:34:56,826 --> 02:35:07,826
And that is the path that leads ultimately to a zero dollar Bitcoin because you
can't compete with that.

1966
02:35:07,826 --> 02:35:24,826
And then someone will say, hey, what we need is a version of this that is subversive
and that has an independent existence that is unconnected to whatever governments of
the world prefer.

1967
02:35:26,826 --> 02:35:32,826
And I actually think that that one has a lot of truth to it. I think that that's
mostly correct.

1968
02:35:32,826 --> 02:35:38,826
So I think it's not just a matter of taste. There really is a matter of true versus
false, accurate versus inaccurate.

1969
02:35:38,826 --> 02:35:56,826
And the compliant, the coin that does not have just a little bit of that edge, that
subversive edge, that one will probably go to zero and the other one will probably
be very successful.

1970
02:35:56,826 --> 02:36:08,826
You have this tendency to think in extremes that something is going to go up and the
other one is going to go to zero.

1971
02:36:08,826 --> 02:36:21,826
Yeah, I do. That's how I feel. Yes. Do you think that that is really unlikely? I
mean, you speak Romanian, I assume.

1972
02:36:21,826 --> 02:36:29,826
Yeah. But you also speak English, but I don't speak any Romanian.

1973
02:36:29,826 --> 02:36:36,826
I'm trying to understand your point.

1974
02:36:36,826 --> 02:36:43,826
Well, let's fast forward 50 years. How many people in Romania are still going to
speak Romanian?

1975
02:36:43,826 --> 02:36:47,826
I mean, that's not the best of examples.

1976
02:36:47,826 --> 02:36:49,826
Probably a lot of them will be speaking English, though.

1977
02:36:49,826 --> 02:36:58,826
We kept our language through thousands of years and we have had Slavic influences
and they still haven't changed our language. They just added words.

1978
02:36:59,826 --> 02:37:13,826
Yeah, sure. But probably. But of course, like it already happened with like, you
know, like a French Canadian. French is sort of dying out in Canada somewhat.

1979
02:37:13,826 --> 02:37:22,826
But I just I that's not that's just a tendency that it's just life is easier when
you coordinate with people in the same way.

1980
02:37:22,826 --> 02:37:32,826
And money is something where you really need to coordinate with people. And it's not
good for two people to have different.

1981
02:37:32,826 --> 02:37:37,826
Like if you go to a different country, you have to convert just like when you have
to convert the language.

1982
02:37:37,826 --> 02:37:44,826
You have to say, what does this mean in the language that I understand? You see all
the prices. You have to convert the prices.

1983
02:37:44,826 --> 02:37:51,826
What is this price in whatever in dollars for my case? To figure out what does it
really mean?

1984
02:37:51,826 --> 02:37:56,826
And people don't like that. And we only have one. We have the QWERTY keyboard.

1985
02:37:56,826 --> 02:38:07,826
I mean, people, they have a different. They have their computer interpret the QWERTY
keyboard that they buy with Dvorak or something, but.

1986
02:38:07,826 --> 02:38:13,826
I don't know. I just think I think there will only be one that succeeds and the
others will go to zero.

1987
02:38:13,826 --> 02:38:24,826
I think I think that. Michael Saylor will have it'll be possible to make it go up
another 10x.

1988
02:38:24,826 --> 02:38:31,826
But it'll start to get difficult because it's like 15 to 20 million dollars a coin
is like the ceiling.

1989
02:38:31,826 --> 02:38:39,826
So you have to flip like you basically have to have flipped eight billion people at
around that time to hit that.

1990
02:38:39,826 --> 02:38:46,826
And even if you if you can't do that, then there's a lower ceiling.

1991
02:38:46,826 --> 02:38:58,826
I don't know why he doesn't I truthfully don't know why he doesn't understand the
value of, for example, the Zcash sidechain that he that he like sort of reject or
he appears to reject utterly.

1992
02:38:58,826 --> 02:39:06,826
I don't know if this is maybe secretly down deep. He actually is hoping and praying
for the Zcash sidechain.

1993
02:39:06,826 --> 02:39:09,826
And he's doing a big performance and saying that he doesn't want that type of thing.

1994
02:39:09,826 --> 02:39:17,826
But I would think if you're rich, you would know how annoying it is to have other
people know about how much money you have.

1995
02:39:18,826 --> 02:39:29,826
I would think if I were rich, my number one priority would be making everyone forget
about making it really unclear exactly how much money does that person have.

1996
02:39:29,826 --> 02:39:37,826
So you would think that that people would be they would get it. But I don't know.

1997
02:39:37,826 --> 02:39:45,826
We have two more questions in the chat. One is from Jack Kensick. And he says, is
there a reason to go to conferences anymore?

1998
02:39:45,826 --> 02:39:54,826
Oh, yes. You're going to discover that Twitter is a an echo chamber and everyone is
LARPing and they're not like that in real life.

1999
02:39:54,826 --> 02:40:00,826
Even it's true. The most radical of people and the most stubborn who will call you a
shit coiner.

2000
02:40:00,826 --> 02:40:10,826
If you present some, I don't know, you don't even own a shit coin, but you say, you
know, these guys from Monero, they're doing something interesting and they're going
to block you and call you a shit coiner.

2001
02:40:10,826 --> 02:40:20,826
Then you meet them in person and you will most likely figure out that they own
multiple shit coins. But they're a character on Twitter. They're LARPing.

2002
02:40:21,826 --> 02:40:32,826
And you will hang out with them until like two or three in the morning. Also, you'd
be like these people that have blocked me, but we're hanging out the whole night. So
it's kind of a weird effect.

2003
02:40:32,826 --> 02:40:42,826
Yeah, that's what I was going to say that if I didn't know you in real life, I would
also assume based on your Twitter activity that you're this bitter asshole.

2004
02:40:43,826 --> 02:40:57,826
And it seems like your strategy to trigger people and engage them. And there's also
the LayerTwo Labs page that posts memes that makes fun of people who are into
Bitcoin.

2005
02:40:57,826 --> 02:41:07,826
It seems to work for getting engagement, but it doesn't help you get more support,
at least not user support. Maybe you're going to get that from miners. I don't know.

2006
02:41:08,826 --> 02:41:17,826
I think I have to put out the software version to get user support. So I'm working
on that right now.

2007
02:41:18,826 --> 02:41:37,826
My point is that if I didn't meet you in person, I would have a completely different
opinion of you. But since I met you in person and I understand what kind of person
you are and what you're really like, I tend to give you more of a benefit of the
doubt.

2008
02:41:38,826 --> 02:41:53,826
Just like I gave Giacomo before he blocked me. And I don't understand why, because
we seem to be very good friends and he didn't care. He was so reckless. He was like,
yeah, this guy disagrees with me, blocked.

2009
02:41:54,826 --> 02:42:13,826
He was on the show. He was on my podcast three times. At one point, this is super
backstage information. I was editor-in-chief of Crypto Insider in 2019. And the big
boss was the investor was speaking with him to potentially do a podcast with me.

2010
02:42:13,826 --> 02:42:23,826
And he was on board with it. He was like, yeah, as long as you pay me, I'm going to
do this. So my history with Giacomo goes way back. And I'm like, he blocks me just
like this.

2011
02:42:23,826 --> 02:42:42,826
But this is why you should go to conferences, because you get to see these people in
person and figure out that your perception is very different from the reality. And
social media is a lie, which should be obvious, but apparently it's really not.

2012
02:42:42,826 --> 02:43:04,826
And we also have another question from Otavio Guimaras. And he says, on the
Voldemort topic, could Voldemorts also have their own sidechain? If yes, what could
be the consequences? If no, what blocks it from happening? So this is inception. You
have a sidechain inside of a sidechain.

2013
02:43:04,826 --> 02:43:30,826
No, that's possible. The only issue is to withdraw both times. It accumulates the
amount of time needed to withdraw. So that's kind of inconvenient. But that's
totally possible. And the regular users are not supposed to be doing that
withdrawing anyway. So really, it would just be like two fees. And then someone else
will slowly walk the coins back.

2014
02:43:31,826 --> 02:43:48,826
I wanted to talk about the conferences, though, because I do get the impression
that, to me, the attendance and interest at the conferences has been declining
significantly year after year for the last three years.

2015
02:43:49,826 --> 02:44:06,826
And now they do seem, I don't know, like they do seem predictable. They seem like
there's not enough new happening. The real novelty was ordinals, but that was
contentious and kind of awkward.

2016
02:44:06,826 --> 02:44:21,826
Do you agree or not? I mean, the conferences are smaller, I think. Fewer tickets are
sold. I think we had a big opportunity with COVID.

2017
02:44:21,826 --> 02:44:44,826
No, I think they're bigger than ever, except that they're all the same. That's what
the problem is. They lack identity. With very few exceptions, they're kind of all
trying to do the same. And you see the same faces, you hear the same speeches. It
gets very predictable after a while. But if you go to a conference, the best idea is
not to listen to the talks. No offense, I know.

2018
02:44:45,826 --> 02:44:50,826
Yeah, the talks are terrible, I agree. I've been there many times. I think mine are
okay.

2019
02:44:50,826 --> 02:44:53,826
What I'm saying is that you can watch them on livestream when you go.

2020
02:44:53,826 --> 02:44:56,826
Yeah, the hallway is way better, yeah.

2021
02:44:56,826 --> 02:45:12,826
You just interact with people, you see someone that you recognize, you go to them,
you say hello, you learn something new about what they're really like. Like, Dan
Hill, for example, is even more of an asshole in person.

2022
02:45:13,826 --> 02:45:33,826
He blocked me on Twitter, he blocked me in real life. I was behind him waiting for
food at one point. And he was basically turning his back on me from every angle, you
know, trying not to make eye contact with me. We're about the same height, but he's
built like a bear.

2023
02:45:33,826 --> 02:45:36,826
Yeah, he is definitely.

2024
02:45:37,826 --> 02:45:52,826
It was so funny because he was ignoring me. And to me, it was incredible that I was
trying to move sideways and stuff and he was finding excuses to turn his back on me.
Super funny.

2025
02:45:53,826 --> 02:46:06,826
Yeah, I mean, a lot of funny things do happen at the conferences that are just like,
yeah, I mean, of course, you know, I've gone to so many, maybe I'm just jaded after
going to like 100 of these Bitcoin conferences, I can't take it anymore.

2026
02:46:07,826 --> 02:46:22,826
But I do think they, it doesn't really feel, it had more electricity in the past. I
don't know if that's maybe just a different, I don't know, maybe I'm misattributing
it.

2027
02:46:23,826 --> 02:46:40,826
But yeah, I went to a few in, whatever, I went to some in 2014. And it was, they
were really small, but there was like, everyone was excited. And you go to every
booth, and they'd say, do you want a job? And like, whatever, all this stuff, like,
can you use whatever? We always need people for this.

2028
02:46:40,826 --> 02:47:03,826
Everyone was like, 24 seven. They were really into it. And they're still into it
now. But it's just, there was so many things, you know, like the physical coins,
that was a different thing. And I remember BitPay was starting all this stuff. I
just remember, it was like, there was a lot of stuff happening, a lot of different
things happening.

2029
02:47:04,826 --> 02:47:26,826
No, there's still a lot of stuff happening. Sometimes I think there's so much
happening that you can't possibly keep up. And I'm not sure if that's a problem.
It's a good problem to have, to have so many projects that it's very hard to
remember to how many mining services you spoke or how many hardware wallets are out
there.

2030
02:47:27,826 --> 02:47:49,826
Or how many of these seed plates, by the way, get a CryptoSteel if you haven't
already. Promo code BTC to KVR. But there are lots of clones of this. CryptoSteel is
the OG one, the one that came first and everyone copied them. And they're still made
in Europe. So they have very high quality standard.

2031
02:47:50,826 --> 02:48:07,826
Anyway, my point with this is that there's a lot happening. And I agree with you
that it's easy to get jaded if you go to a large number of conferences. But I
remember the first time when I went to Baltic Honey Badger, it was so exciting.

2032
02:48:08,826 --> 02:48:10,826
I mean, that was a great one. I like that one a lot.

2033
02:48:11,826 --> 02:48:15,826
It was so exciting. I was watching the stage. I was captivated.

2034
02:48:16,826 --> 02:48:34,826
Let me pitch you this on Baltic Honey Badger. Don't read too much into this, anyone
who's listening who loves Baltic Honey Badger. But two Baltic Honey Badgers ago, I
was there and we did the Unpopular Opinions panel. And we had a great time. And they
just let us keep going. So it was like two hours long.

2035
02:48:35,826 --> 02:48:41,826
And it was great. I thought everyone was in the room. Everyone was paying attention.
I thought people were laughing.

2036
02:48:42,826 --> 02:48:46,826
And then this year, it was like short.

2037
02:48:49,826 --> 02:48:54,826
Oh, come on. You got Robert Breedlove to moderate. But you weren't there.

2038
02:48:55,826 --> 02:49:04,826
I wasn't there. But it was mostly about the forbidden topic also. But it was like,
yeah, I guess I wasn't there. So I guess I can't say.

2039
02:49:04,826 --> 02:49:20,826
But all the content is – the actual content is not – I don't know. Because maybe
that's not true. Because we do have lots of crazy stuff happen all the time. We have
crazy debates and things.

2040
02:49:21,826 --> 02:49:22,826
I don't know.

2041
02:49:22,826 --> 02:49:36,826
I think so. To your point, I also think that the community became more corporate in
the sense that a lot of the guys who used to be very cool and they could talk about
anything, now it's against their financial incentives.

2042
02:49:36,826 --> 02:49:52,826
Because they're affiliated with some big company that's funded by some big money
sources. I don't know exactly who or how much. But it seems like they become less
willing to discuss nuances as they climb up in ranks.

2043
02:49:53,826 --> 02:49:59,826
Yeah, they have their talking points and they have their little simplistic – I don't
know.

2044
02:50:00,826 --> 02:50:11,826
I remember being super excited when I met Adam back in person for the first time.
And then I watched his presentation and it was one of the most boring I've ever
seen.

2045
02:50:12,826 --> 02:50:27,826
Not just because he's not captivating as a speaker. It's just that he also picked a
topic which was related to liquid and stuff. And I didn't find that particularly
interesting.

2046
02:50:28,826 --> 02:50:38,826
And I saw him at another conference and he actually joined the Telegram chat and
asked, what should I talk about? And I said, oh, say something about the Cypherpunk
history.

2047
02:50:39,826 --> 02:50:49,826
Of course he ignored my message and he spoke about something related to liquid. And
this goes back to my point that there is always the financial incentive to shill
your own bags.

2048
02:50:49,826 --> 02:51:02,826
Yeah, it's a commercial or something. It's like people get up there and they talk
and you're just like, whatever. They start to talk and you're like, I've already
heard this. I've heard this whole thing.

2049
02:51:03,826 --> 02:51:25,826
It seems like validating too. People say, the great such and such on stage at
whatever. They must be whatever. It's a little bit wearisome. Anyway, see, there we
go. We did three hours. Should we just keep going?

2050
02:51:26,826 --> 02:51:29,826
There are still 10 people on YouTube who are watching this.

2051
02:51:29,826 --> 02:51:32,826
Are you in Europe? Are you in Romania or a time zone?

2052
02:51:33,826 --> 02:51:38,826
It's three in the morning here, but I don't care. I also drank.

2053
02:51:39,826 --> 02:51:40,826
Yeah, it's not good.

2054
02:51:41,826 --> 02:51:42,826
My first name is Vlad.

2055
02:51:43,826 --> 02:51:53,826
It's great for falling asleep, but it's not healthy to fall asleep after. Although
it greatly increases the likelihood that I will. Many times I have fallen asleep.

2056
02:51:53,826 --> 02:52:11,826
I actually have another interview in nine hours, so I'm going to have to wake up for
that one. It's about something of which I'm not supposed to talk yet because it's
under embargo, but it has something in common with zero knowledge proofs on Bitcoin
and that's the most I can say.

2057
02:52:11,826 --> 02:52:28,826
There's a lot of exciting stuff happening, but it flies under the radar and it's a
pity, you know, it doesn't get picked up by the big influencers and maybe I
shouldn't complain about it and I should be happy that I get to have these guests.

2058
02:52:28,826 --> 02:52:41,826
By the way, guys, the ones who are still here, check out the rest of season 15 of
the Bitcoin Takeover podcast. I think I have some of the brightest minds in the
space right now and the most prolific developers.

2059
02:52:42,826 --> 02:53:05,826
I have an episode with John Light, SuperTestNet and Alexei Zamyatin. I hope I
pronounced that correctly. And they speak about roll-ups, they speak about BitVM,
they speak about all of this avant-garde stuff that right now sounds very, how
should I put it, very mystical, very esoteric.

2060
02:53:06,826 --> 02:53:22,826
But in a few years it's going to make a huge difference. And I also have an
interview with Sergio Lerner and he has a lot of interesting stuff to say. I have an
interview with Robert, it's not Robert, it's Robin Linas, the creator of BitVM.

2061
02:53:22,826 --> 02:53:39,826
And you should also listen to that one because the work that he does is going to
leave a great impact in the future on Bitcoin. And I feel like the potential of
BitVM is pretty much untapped. I'm not sure what you think about BitVM.

2062
02:53:39,826 --> 02:53:49,826
I know what Sergio thinks about BitVM and he says he can do what you're working on
and we cannot say what's BitVM as opposed to a soft fork.

2063
02:53:49,826 --> 02:54:18,826
BitVM is a great idea. I mean, one funny thing about it is that Robin did tweet on
Twitter, he said something like, he wrote a very nice tweet from my point of view
that is something like, BitVM is basically a way to get thing.

2064
02:54:19,826 --> 02:54:31,826
The forbidden BIP, you know, whatever, as quickly without doing the soft fork or
whatever.

2065
02:54:31,826 --> 02:54:51,826
I think, though, yeah, I don't, I'm not sure, it may have the same, some of the fee,
passing down the fee issue where you have people validating the peg.

2066
02:54:51,826 --> 02:55:01,826
I guess there is a difference between the merge mining part and the deposit
withdrawal part. So I guess if you.

2067
02:55:03,189 --> 02:55:08,689
Did the, I think we have to wait for the more, the concrete to dry somewhat with
BitVM because.

2068
02:55:08,689 --> 02:55:13,369
For example, SupertestNet was telling me about how he.

2069
02:55:13,369 --> 02:55:21,569
The resource requirements were very high on, he was working on something, something
neat.

2070
02:55:21,569 --> 02:55:24,909
But the resource requirements were very high.

2071
02:55:25,569 --> 02:55:28,909
But the resource requirements were very high.

2072
02:55:28,909 --> 02:55:31,409
You know, in terms of.

2073
02:55:31,409 --> 02:55:38,029
All these things you have to like, these zero out and so.

2074
02:55:38,029 --> 02:55:46,749
Yeah, I don't know, I think we, we should try all these things we, I don't want to
be like these people who.

2075
02:55:46,749 --> 02:55:55,169
Who lie about my own project to build their own, but we should really just try all
these things. I think that is definitely just the best thing.

2076
02:55:55,169 --> 02:55:58,869
To do is try lots of things.

2077
02:55:58,869 --> 02:56:04,329
We'll get a successful thing out of that group.

2078
02:56:06,569 --> 02:56:13,449
Um, I don't know, I, I, I'm definitely very worried by the fact that very few people
understand it. I think that's.

2079
02:56:14,429 --> 02:56:17,709
That's not good. I think it was easier to understand.

2080
02:56:17,709 --> 02:56:24,309
But it was easier to understand Bitcoin after a few months versus this.

2081
02:56:24,309 --> 02:56:28,749
Um, yeah, we'll have to see.

2082
02:56:28,749 --> 02:56:31,669
But we should be trying all these things.

2083
02:56:33,229 --> 02:56:38,069
Yeah, I think also you, Paul, you should check out the Robin Linus interview.

2084
02:56:38,069 --> 02:56:43,029
I think he's got some very nice stuff about what we're not supposed to talk about.

2085
02:56:43,169 --> 02:56:44,289
And also super testnet.

2086
02:56:44,289 --> 02:56:45,049
Very smart guy.

2087
02:56:47,849 --> 02:56:51,009
And this is the new generation of Bitcoin Core developers.

2088
02:56:51,009 --> 02:56:53,849
They're not bought by Blockstream or Chaincode.

2089
02:56:54,329 --> 02:57:08,089
Yeah, but I think the, the cultural stasis, unfortunately, is, uh, it's really going
to take someone like Udi or whatever, I think, to break it up the, with like a
sledgehammer.

2090
02:57:08,109 --> 02:57:21,109
It's, uh, I'm not sure if that's the case, but it, I don't know if it's like, it's
too sociopathical, like the, the existing set of stuff.

2091
02:57:23,989 --> 02:57:32,749
Like, you remember the interview we did months ago about, like, people would say
stuff that was not even close to true, you know, as we both know, but it just
doesn't matter.

2092
02:57:33,749 --> 02:57:47,329
I know that they were very effective as portraying you in a certain way, and right,
as a consequence right now, not too many people talk about the activation of the
stuff that we're not supposed to be talking about in this episode.

2093
02:57:49,089 --> 02:57:56,969
But that's okay, because, you know, I actually don't think, I think we have to set
the precedent that activation should not be by consensus, actually.

2094
02:57:56,969 --> 02:58:11,229
So three hours in, I'll throw you this crazy curveball, but I just think it was
never, none of the previous softworks actually had consensus either, in the sense of
everyone agreeing that they were the thing to do.

2095
02:58:11,229 --> 02:58:33,349
So it should be more like a Westminster, like, 51% vote type of thing, honestly, is
what I really think, where some people disagree, more people agree than not, and
then the idea is attempted, and then if it's not good, then it is abandoned or
disabled.

2096
02:58:33,349 --> 02:58:49,909
But the fact that these are all opt-in soft forks that no one can be forced to use,
that just makes it all the more ridiculous that there is no, there's not even, no
one will even do a cost benefit analysis, because there's no cost, that's what's
really bizarre.

2097
02:58:50,909 --> 02:59:04,909
I never thought about it in these terms, that you don't do a cost benefit, I mean,
the cost is always hypothetical, right, you're messing with the code base, you never
know, the last time...

2098
02:59:04,909 --> 02:59:29,909
This is true of many things that are not soft forks. Any change to the code could,
you could put a keylogger in, or you could just put an assert zero, as the BCH did,
where the node just crashes, and Matt Corallo was trying to speed up some tiny
operation by a couple thousandths of a second, and he inadvertently introduced an
inflation bug, that was quickly fixed.

2099
02:59:29,909 --> 02:59:37,909
And it would not have taken effect, because it would have hard forked the thing off,
but because of the soft fork, we were protected from this mistake.

2100
02:59:37,909 --> 02:59:42,909
But you see, these are all changes that were not soft forks, so it doesn't make any
difference.

2101
02:59:42,909 --> 03:00:01,909
Every single code change is potentially an atomic bomb, but you don't see people
going out on Twitter and saying, for every single pull request, which is what you'd
have to do to be logically consistent, every single time any pull request was open
for anything, to refactor something.

2102
03:00:01,909 --> 03:00:15,909
You'd say, well, wait a minute, we're touching the code here. Then people could
bike-shed for hours about, hey, maybe this will make the code really hard to
maintain in the future.

2103
03:00:15,909 --> 03:00:25,909
That's the same way that they could talk about it for OP_CAT, right? That's all they
could say, is say, well, maybe this will be hard to maintain.

2104
03:00:26,909 --> 03:00:34,909
Or maybe we're going to get a crowd of people saying, we don't like cats, we're dog
people, so no OP_CAT.

2105
03:00:34,909 --> 03:00:46,909
Yeah, opdog, what would it be? If OP_CAT connects two things on the stack, opdog
takes them and throws them away.

2106
03:00:47,909 --> 03:00:54,909
That's a crazy idea, but I hope someone picks it up. Release an opdog for
confidence. Do that.

2107
03:00:54,909 --> 03:01:08,909
It steals the items on the stack and it hides them somewhere else. So they show up
on the stack way down the line, in the last place that you look.

2108
03:01:09,909 --> 03:01:19,909
Anyway, there's a very good comment from Juan Suescun. I hope I pronounced this
correctly. And we can end after this, because you're tired.

2109
03:01:19,909 --> 03:01:35,909
And he says, Linus, and he refers to Robin Linus, has this idea of proof-of-stake
combined with proof-of-work as a better solution than the stuff we're not supposed
to talk about 301.

2110
03:01:36,909 --> 03:01:39,909
I was going to say, I knew it was that.

2111
03:01:39,909 --> 03:01:41,909
What do you think of that?

2112
03:01:42,909 --> 03:02:01,909
I don't think – he and I actually discussed this, Robin and I. I think it's based on
a slight misunderstanding of blank one.

2113
03:02:02,909 --> 03:02:19,909
Where people – all it does is translate proof-of-work in the form of thermodynamics
to the form of L1 coins paid.

2114
03:02:20,909 --> 03:02:37,909
I don't think that it is better or – I don't even think that – or significantly
different. So, I don't quite agree. I don't know. We would have to get more into the
details to know.

2115
03:02:38,909 --> 03:02:43,909
I think the idea is something like people stake coins and they can be slashed or
something.

2116
03:02:43,909 --> 03:02:55,909
But I just think it's – I'm a security budget maximalist type guy, so I just think
if you're willing to pay the security budget, you can buy up all the space, the
extra block space for yourself.

2117
03:02:56,909 --> 03:03:04,909
That ultimately determines people's willingness to reorg the chain or censor the
chain.

2118
03:03:04,909 --> 03:03:06,909
And so, I think it's all built around that in my mind.

2119
03:03:08,909 --> 03:03:12,909
And the actual form it takes are just different versions of that.

2120
03:03:12,909 --> 03:03:17,909
This marginal cost equals marginal revenue. Nothing is cheaper than proof-of-work
type argument.

2121
03:03:18,909 --> 03:03:27,909
So, I don't really see – the only thing I see are does something faithfully
translate the security budget into accumulated settlement?

2122
03:03:29,909 --> 03:03:38,909
Or does it do that with a lot of errors and friction along the way and making the
results sort of worse?

2123
03:03:38,909 --> 03:03:45,909
So, I think everything kind of takes that form. I don't think that it is better.

2124
03:03:47,909 --> 03:03:53,909
But that's the beauty of blank 00.

2125
03:03:55,909 --> 03:03:58,909
You're not required to use blank 00 with blank 01.

2126
03:04:00,909 --> 03:04:03,909
You can – they are fully interchangeable.

2127
03:04:04,909 --> 03:04:08,909
And you can use one, both, neither, or the other.

2128
03:04:09,909 --> 03:04:17,909
It is possible to have a sidechain that is blind merge mined, but that is not – but
that has no Bitcoin in it.

2129
03:04:17,909 --> 03:04:19,909
It is a full – it could be a full altcoin.

2130
03:04:19,909 --> 03:04:21,909
And you can flip the other as well.

2131
03:04:21,909 --> 03:04:25,909
You can have something that you deposit coins to that has no blockchain.

2132
03:04:25,909 --> 03:04:29,909
So, you can do all kinds of things if you really want.

2133
03:04:30,909 --> 03:04:32,909
You don't have to use them together.

2134
03:04:33,909 --> 03:04:37,909
Okay, Paul. I think I ran out of questions for now.

2135
03:04:37,909 --> 03:04:39,909
This was super fun.

2136
03:04:39,909 --> 03:04:41,909
I appreciate your time.

2137
03:04:41,909 --> 03:04:43,909
You're always patient.

2138
03:04:43,909 --> 03:04:48,909
Some people complained on Twitter like Pledator and a couple of others that you
blocked them.

2139
03:04:48,909 --> 03:04:53,909
And therefore, they don't care about your opinions anymore when I announced this
interview.

2140
03:04:55,909 --> 03:04:56,909
What can I say?

2141
03:04:57,909 --> 03:04:58,909
What can I say?

2142
03:04:58,909 --> 03:05:07,909
I don't really – you got to do something when – it's a situation where you go on
Twitter and a lot of people try to talk to me on Twitter.

2143
03:05:07,909 --> 03:05:23,909
And it's just not – it's not good to have certain types of – you can't have this
type of relationship with like whatever it is, 40,000 Twitter followers or whatever
I have.

2144
03:05:23,909 --> 03:05:24,909
I don't know how many I have.

2145
03:05:24,909 --> 03:05:31,909
But – and then people put low-quality stuff.

2146
03:05:31,909 --> 03:05:37,909
The block is not – it's going to sound terrible, but it's not just because I don't
want to talk to them.

2147
03:05:37,909 --> 03:05:49,909
It's also because they pollute the replies with stuff that I think is – it shouldn't
be in the Overton window for my Twitter universe.

2148
03:05:49,909 --> 03:05:52,909
So, everyone has their own Overton window, which is great.

2149
03:05:52,909 --> 03:05:58,909
And if people – I think I usually am very happy with my block decisions.

2150
03:05:58,909 --> 03:06:08,909
I just think if someone – I think it's kind of hard to get blocked by me, to be
honest with you.

2151
03:06:08,909 --> 03:06:12,909
Even though I block a lot of people, I don't really block people unless I think this
person is just a lost cause.

2152
03:06:12,909 --> 03:06:14,909
Talking to them is a waste of time.

2153
03:06:14,909 --> 03:06:16,909
Listening to them is a waste of time.

2154
03:06:16,909 --> 03:06:19,909
I wish I had infinite time to give to everyone.

2155
03:06:20,909 --> 03:06:21,909
I certainly do not.

2156
03:06:23,909 --> 03:06:26,909
I wish they would watch these interviews, but they don't.

2157
03:06:26,909 --> 03:06:27,909
Sorry?

2158
03:06:27,909 --> 03:06:30,909
I wish they would watch these interviews, but they don't.

2159
03:06:32,909 --> 03:06:33,909
That's what I mean.

2160
03:06:33,909 --> 03:06:34,909
You see what I mean?

2161
03:06:34,909 --> 03:06:36,909
Now you see why I would block someone like that.

2162
03:06:38,909 --> 03:06:42,909
If you're not watching Bitcoin Takeover, you're going to get blocked by Paul.

2163
03:06:42,909 --> 03:06:44,909
Keep that in mind.

2164
03:06:45,909 --> 03:06:47,909
Just someone who – I don't know.

2165
03:06:50,909 --> 03:06:55,909
Yeah, it's not – you're not entitled to attention from someone.

2166
03:06:55,909 --> 03:06:57,909
We all accept that, I think.

2167
03:06:58,909 --> 03:06:59,909
Whatever.

2168
03:06:59,909 --> 03:07:08,909
How would Taylor Swift survive if everyone had to give – she owed everyone two
minutes of her every day.

2169
03:07:09,909 --> 03:07:11,909
That would be impossible.

2170
03:07:11,909 --> 03:07:13,909
You're too much of a star, Paul.

2171
03:07:14,909 --> 03:07:20,909
But we have such an OG question in the chat right now that I have to ask it, and I
apologize.

2172
03:07:20,909 --> 03:07:27,909
I was about to end this, but he said, what was the deal with pool insurance, i.e.
Johnset?

2173
03:07:28,909 --> 03:07:31,909
That was so – oh, okay.

2174
03:07:31,909 --> 03:07:32,909
All right.

2175
03:07:32,909 --> 03:07:36,909
I thought they were going to ask about – there was a very old topic about that in
which I commented.

2176
03:07:37,909 --> 03:07:45,909
Johnset was talking to me recently about paper share and full paper share and these
other things.

2177
03:07:46,909 --> 03:07:49,909
And we may need to review it briefly.

2178
03:07:49,909 --> 03:08:00,909
So like some – I think the relevant difference is some pools are set up so that if
the pool never wins a block, you never get paid.

2179
03:08:01,909 --> 03:08:12,909
And if the pool is lucky and wins a bunch of blocks, you get paid more than maybe
you thought or more than your hash rate – more than you would, quote, deserve for
your given hash rate percentage.

2180
03:08:12,909 --> 03:08:13,909
Right?

2181
03:08:14,909 --> 03:08:15,909
Some pools do that.

2182
03:08:15,909 --> 03:08:21,909
But what other pools do is they have – what are you doing now?

2183
03:08:21,909 --> 03:08:22,909
What's happening now?

2184
03:08:23,909 --> 03:08:26,909
Someone in the chat said, Paul just compared himself to Taylor Swift.

2185
03:08:26,909 --> 03:08:29,909
And they replied, yep, I caught that on video.

2186
03:08:31,909 --> 03:08:32,909
That's an extreme case.

2187
03:08:32,909 --> 03:08:36,909
That's a well-known technique in physics, first principles thinking.

2188
03:08:36,909 --> 03:08:38,909
You take the extreme edge case.

2189
03:08:38,909 --> 03:08:41,909
I'm saying the most – one of the most famous people in the entire world.

2190
03:08:41,909 --> 03:08:55,909
But I'm saying like you can't – so like in some percentage, when you become like
more of a public figure and you're like invited on stage and you have like whatever.

2191
03:08:55,909 --> 03:08:57,909
You don't have to explain yourself, Paul.

2192
03:08:57,909 --> 03:08:59,909
Just go ahead with the pool regarding –

2193
03:08:59,909 --> 03:09:13,909
So the other pools, what sometimes they have done is they have decided we will
shoulder all of the risk and we will factor this out and we'll say whether or not we
– this is the insurance concept.

2194
03:09:13,909 --> 03:09:26,909
They say whether or not we find any blocks, we will pay you a certain amount of
money per hash basically because it's like a certain amount of money per hundred
trillion hashes or something.

2195
03:09:26,909 --> 03:09:35,909
So they say if you just hash with us and it makes the hashers more – it makes it
very easy for the pools to compare each other.

2196
03:09:35,909 --> 03:09:38,909
Excuse me.

2197
03:09:38,909 --> 03:09:39,909
I didn't explain that very well.

2198
03:09:39,909 --> 03:09:47,909
What I'm saying is if you're a hasher and you're looking at the pools, it makes it
easy to pick one pool versus another because you just pick whoever has the highest
number.

2199
03:09:47,909 --> 03:09:51,909
That's very easy to do, right?

2200
03:09:51,909 --> 03:09:53,909
Does this make some sense?

2201
03:09:53,909 --> 03:10:02,909
So you go into the store and you – they have two pieces – two things of toothpaste
that they're exactly the same but one is 10 cents cheaper.

2202
03:10:02,909 --> 03:10:08,909
And you say, okay, I'm only looking at this one number and I picked the number
that's best for me.

2203
03:10:08,909 --> 03:10:12,909
Of course, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

2204
03:10:12,909 --> 03:10:18,909
The downside is the pool must run the risk.

2205
03:10:18,909 --> 03:10:38,909
And as John said, he is making an analogy and he understands that I will pick up on
it, which I do, about since they're in the business now of shouldering risk, they
are a lot like an insurance person because an insurance person insures a bunch of
people.

2206
03:10:38,909 --> 03:10:45,909
And it says you pay us this amount and if you have a $10,000 medical setback, we'll
give you $10,000.

2207
03:10:45,909 --> 03:10:50,909
So you just pay – instead of randomly paying out, you pay a small amount.

2208
03:10:50,909 --> 03:10:54,909
And instead of it mattering a lot when that happens to you, now it doesn't matter.

2209
03:10:54,909 --> 03:11:00,909
However, the insurance company will be ruined if they have lots and lots of claims
at various points in time.

2210
03:11:00,909 --> 03:11:03,909
So they're in the business of managing risk.

2211
03:11:03,909 --> 03:11:09,909
So he's saying that – if I understand his point of view, he and I seem to disagree
about this but I'm not exactly sure.

2212
03:11:10,909 --> 03:11:21,909
But I think that this paper share thing is very good because it reduces the
negotiating leverage of pools and it makes them easier to compare to each other.

2213
03:11:21,909 --> 03:11:34,909
Because if one person's number is just a little higher by one millionth of a
percent, people just switch to them in an oversimplified case.

2214
03:11:35,909 --> 03:11:38,909
So he was talking about that.

2215
03:11:38,909 --> 03:11:47,909
And he was saying, I don't understand how they can possibly afford to do this
because they will be – they have to bear this insurance cost.

2216
03:11:47,909 --> 03:11:51,909
And I'm saying that it's actually good for the pools to suffer.

2217
03:11:51,909 --> 03:11:56,909
I think part of the subtext here is that Jentseth is sort of a supporter.

2218
03:11:56,909 --> 03:12:03,909
Some people have said he's an investor in Ocean, the pool, which does not do this.

2219
03:12:03,909 --> 03:12:16,909
Over the last several years, pools have basically shifted substantially more and
more and more towards paper share or a version of paper share.

2220
03:12:16,909 --> 03:12:24,909
So they have switched to the thing I prefer because I prefer what is best for the
end customer.

2221
03:12:24,909 --> 03:12:32,909
And what is best for the end customer is to have no risk and to be able to easily
pick the pool with the highest number of maximum pool competitiveness.

2222
03:12:32,909 --> 03:12:37,909
And I think it just further shows how – is this explanation making any sense at all?

2223
03:12:37,909 --> 03:12:42,909
I think it just further shows how competitive the pool market is getting more
competitive.

2224
03:12:42,909 --> 03:12:50,909
And in fact, the whole mining ecosystem is actually becoming healthier over time is
maybe what I would say.

2225
03:12:51,909 --> 03:12:58,909
Now, although it is bad in one way because the pools now need more startup capital.

2226
03:12:58,909 --> 03:13:09,909
But this cost is lifted from the individual hashers who no longer need to bear the
risk.

2227
03:13:09,909 --> 03:13:19,909
So it's a shift from the people who are buying the – the people buying the hashers,
the hardware miners, they don't have to pay this cost anymore.

2228
03:13:19,909 --> 03:13:22,909
And it shifts up to the pools.

2229
03:13:22,909 --> 03:13:29,909
They have to pay and then they have to be – they're more easily – they have to
compete against each other.

2230
03:13:29,909 --> 03:13:31,909
I don't know if this is making any sense.

2231
03:13:31,909 --> 03:13:34,909
So I hope that this is making some sense, though.

2232
03:13:34,909 --> 03:13:47,909
But I think it just – the bottom line is probably that people at Ocean are probably
trying to figure out why is it – how can we compete against PaperShare?

2233
03:13:47,909 --> 03:13:59,909
And they probably – they will probably either switch to the PaperShare category or
just continue to not attract hash.

2234
03:13:59,909 --> 03:14:00,909
That's my guess. I don't know.

2235
03:14:00,909 --> 03:14:05,909
Maybe if the person has a more specific thing they're curious about, they could
clarify their question.

2236
03:14:05,909 --> 03:14:08,909
I hope that wasn't too much of a train wreck.

2237
03:14:08,909 --> 03:14:10,909
Yeah, he also said something.

2238
03:14:10,909 --> 03:14:16,909
What derivatives could be used to form a minimum hash rate viable pool?

2239
03:14:16,909 --> 03:14:28,909
Yeah, I think the idea of insuring the – the idea of insuring the block.

2240
03:14:28,909 --> 03:14:44,909
This is very difficult for me because I took a pen and paper out and I tried to
figure out like what does it mean if you are trying to say, okay, you want something
that pays off more if you are lucky and find more blocks.

2241
03:14:44,909 --> 03:14:46,909
And you want something that pays off less.

2242
03:14:46,909 --> 03:14:50,909
But wait a minute, that just is Bitcoin mining.

2243
03:14:50,909 --> 03:14:55,909
So it's kind of like trying to figure out like – but I think like it can't work, I
think.

2244
03:14:55,909 --> 03:14:59,909
It's just fundamentally a thermodynamically random thing.

2245
03:14:59,909 --> 03:15:07,909
And if you buy – one issue is if you – imagine – let's say I'm a miner and you and I
have a deal.

2246
03:15:07,909 --> 03:15:10,909
Our deal is like this.

2247
03:15:10,909 --> 03:15:12,909
The deal goes like this.

2248
03:15:12,909 --> 03:15:14,909
I'm going to mine as hard as I can.

2249
03:15:14,909 --> 03:15:24,909
But if I don't find any blocks, you're going to give me all – you're going to give
me like all the money that I didn't make, the value of all these blocks I didn't
find.

2250
03:15:24,909 --> 03:15:26,909
So then I go to you.

2251
03:15:26,909 --> 03:15:35,909
We make this deal and then I go to you the next week and I say, you're not going to
believe this, but I didn't find any blocks, so you owe me a ton of money.

2252
03:15:35,909 --> 03:15:39,909
And you're going to be like, did you really mine as hard as you could?

2253
03:15:39,909 --> 03:15:41,909
And I'm going to be like, yeah, I mined really hard.

2254
03:15:41,909 --> 03:15:42,909
Look at my electricity bill.

2255
03:15:42,909 --> 03:15:45,909
It's 100 percent real.

2256
03:15:45,909 --> 03:16:00,909
And then – so I'm like, I don't know if this – it just seems since it's
fundamentally very difficult to audit because it – because you can't keep track of
all the hashes or all the shares.

2257
03:16:00,909 --> 03:16:03,909
That would be like an unbelievable amount of stuff.

2258
03:16:03,909 --> 03:16:06,909
There's not enough hard drive space or bandwidth for that.

2259
03:16:06,909 --> 03:16:10,909
So you can't – you can't do – you know what I mean?

2260
03:16:10,909 --> 03:16:14,909
To scan through the list is basically almost as much work as actually mining.

2261
03:16:14,909 --> 03:16:17,909
Not quite, but close.

2262
03:16:17,909 --> 03:16:25,909
So it's like – so yeah, I don't know if anything – if that will work.

2263
03:16:25,909 --> 03:16:46,909
Because, you know, the mining, you are – when you mine, you are already sort of
selling insurance in a way because you pay a fixed amount.

2264
03:16:46,909 --> 03:16:51,909
And then you win money randomly.

2265
03:16:52,909 --> 03:16:56,909
And so you are short or – I don't know.

2266
03:16:56,909 --> 03:16:58,909
It doesn't really make any difference, really, the point is.

2267
03:16:58,909 --> 03:17:02,909
But the – it's maybe the alcohol talking now.

2268
03:17:02,909 --> 03:17:17,909
But the point is that minimum viable pool, I think the pool already – they have
certain sizes that are set by much bigger factors.

2269
03:17:17,909 --> 03:17:21,909
So like the block withholding will affect you if you have a very large pool.

2270
03:17:21,909 --> 03:17:25,909
And then if you're too small, then you get hit by the variance.

2271
03:17:25,909 --> 03:17:28,909
So there's already like an optimal pool size.

2272
03:17:28,909 --> 03:17:38,909
I don't think it has very much to do with – this whole thing about wanting pools to
be really small, I don't think that's even desirable.

2273
03:17:39,909 --> 03:17:50,909
There's nothing wrong with having like 10 pools that are all 10 percent as long as
it's possible always to form a new pool if any of them misbehave that other people
will switch to.

2274
03:17:50,909 --> 03:17:54,909
So I kind of just don't think – I don't get that.

2275
03:17:54,909 --> 03:17:59,909
To me, this seems like people just see the pie chart and they just want the pie
chart to look a certain way.

2276
03:17:59,909 --> 03:18:03,909
And they don't – I don't really get – do you get it, Vlad?

2277
03:18:03,909 --> 03:18:07,909
I understand the impulse, but they want to have like the pie chart be like lots of
slivers.

2278
03:18:07,909 --> 03:18:10,909
But why is that? Why is that good?

2279
03:18:10,909 --> 03:18:12,909
It doesn't matter.

2280
03:18:12,909 --> 03:18:16,909
But each – the people – it's false to say that the pool has agency.

2281
03:18:16,909 --> 03:18:17,909
You know what I mean?

2282
03:18:17,909 --> 03:18:25,909
The people mining at F2 pool, they could all leave and switch to AMP pool on the
drop of a hat.

2283
03:18:26,909 --> 03:18:32,909
So if there's any flaw in any of the existing pools, people will just switch.

2284
03:18:32,909 --> 03:18:34,909
So the problem fixes itself.

2285
03:18:34,909 --> 03:18:36,909
I'm not really sure what people hope.

2286
03:18:36,909 --> 03:18:40,909
Like what is it that people find so problematic about today's world?

2287
03:18:40,909 --> 03:18:42,909
Like is there so much transaction censorship?

2288
03:18:42,909 --> 03:18:45,909
Is there so much blockery org?

2289
03:18:46,909 --> 03:18:52,909
Like the problem is that the pools do not coordinate to activate soft forks of
anything.

2290
03:18:52,909 --> 03:18:57,909
So they would almost be better if they were slightly larger, I think.

2291
03:18:57,909 --> 03:19:04,909
Because then they would take – they would feel more responsible maybe for the
success of the network.

2292
03:19:04,909 --> 03:19:12,909
Instead of thinking like they're all just kind of waiting for someone else to make
the first move or whatever.

2293
03:19:12,909 --> 03:19:26,909
It would be better if – I think maybe it would be better if they were all – I mean
what is the Bitcoin Mining Council if it's not, to some extent, those big miners all
combining into one organization?

2294
03:19:26,909 --> 03:19:39,909
But that would be better if there really was a functioning Bitcoin Mining Council
that researched ways of increasing the value of miners.

2295
03:19:39,909 --> 03:19:49,909
They would probably conclude that they should heal the damage done to the activation
process from 2017.

2296
03:19:49,909 --> 03:19:54,909
Which I think they're trying to do, but they are not – they're trying to do by
staying out of it.

2297
03:19:54,909 --> 03:19:59,909
But they're not – this has created its own version of the exact same problem.

2298
03:19:59,909 --> 03:20:03,909
Is that the SegWit blockade was caused by miners.

2299
03:20:04,535 --> 03:20:07,615
The SegWit blockade was caused by miners actively ignoring it.

2300
03:20:08,415 --> 03:20:11,455
And then all these other – there's a whole long list of things like OP_CAT,

2301
03:20:12,575 --> 03:20:19,135
where they are also ignoring those. So it's weird that it's actually the same
problem

2302
03:20:19,135 --> 03:20:21,615
and the same behavior, but it's framed kind of differently.

2303
03:20:25,455 --> 03:20:29,855
Yeah, you know, Paul, last question and then I'm going to go to sleep and you can

2304
03:20:29,855 --> 03:20:34,575
go have dinner or something. It should be late in New York or whatever.

2305
03:20:35,375 --> 03:20:38,895
That's your time zone. I'm not sure where you're based. But anyway,

2306
03:20:41,695 --> 03:20:46,495
why do we bother with any of this instead of just building on Liquid?

2307
03:20:50,175 --> 03:20:50,815
Well, I think...

2308
03:20:53,455 --> 03:20:58,095
I mean, it's so complex, right? It requires soft forks to change the base layer.

2309
03:20:58,575 --> 03:21:03,055
It requires effort. It requires coordination.

2310
03:21:03,055 --> 03:21:07,135
Well, if we would, what we'd be saying is that something that we've already done

2311
03:21:08,975 --> 03:21:16,575
16 times, the soft fork, because it was done many times in the past,

2312
03:21:18,015 --> 03:21:22,655
that we've stopped doing it now. And why would we stop doing it? Because

2313
03:21:22,815 --> 03:21:26,815
some people on Twitter who joined two years ago

2314
03:21:29,135 --> 03:21:35,215
don't like it or something. Well, I think that would be our point of view.

2315
03:21:37,215 --> 03:21:42,735
Right? We'd be like letting the terrorists win. And we would be setting the stage
for a much

2316
03:21:42,735 --> 03:21:47,135
bigger future disaster, because we'd say everything happens on a
corporate-controlled...

2317
03:21:47,375 --> 03:21:54,015
Until recently, it wasn't even open source. A wallet where no one knows the key
holders,

2318
03:21:54,015 --> 03:21:56,735
even who they are, or that they're not all the same person.

2319
03:21:56,735 --> 03:21:58,495
No, you're talking about Liquid. Sorry.

2320
03:21:58,495 --> 03:22:03,135
Yeah, right. And all the transaction fees go to a wall controlled by the corporation
that

2321
03:22:03,135 --> 03:22:10,495
created it. So that would really be admitting defeat in many ways. I think it's
better to actually

2322
03:22:11,055 --> 03:22:17,295
hunt down the real problem and say, what is the real problem? And then destroy that,

2323
03:22:17,295 --> 03:22:24,735
because we'll get a much bigger payoff. We'll get a much bigger payoff if we just...
If the miners

2324
03:22:24,735 --> 03:22:37,135
were able to understand that there is a defective... The Bitcoin development process
is too

2325
03:22:37,935 --> 03:22:45,135
conservative in some ways. And it's honestly too liberal in other ways. There's too
many people

2326
03:22:45,135 --> 03:22:49,455
just changing the code for no reason, like refactoring it or whatever, where they
should

2327
03:22:49,455 --> 03:22:55,695
just... If they don't need to change it, then they shouldn't change it. But it's too
conservative in

2328
03:22:55,695 --> 03:23:00,175
some ways that negatively affect Bitcoin. And that they should... In some cases,
they should

2329
03:23:00,815 --> 03:23:10,655
really ignore. Not all, but in some cases, they should really ignore what people on
GitHub think.

2330
03:23:11,855 --> 03:23:18,895
Just as sometimes the people on GitHub should ignore things that miners think are
important.

2331
03:23:18,895 --> 03:23:23,615
So we should all recognize that there is a complex set of conflicts of interest.

2332
03:23:23,775 --> 03:23:32,575
Miners, users, investors, and developers have interests which... They have many
interests

2333
03:23:32,575 --> 03:23:39,615
that align, and they each have many interests that are opposite, of course. I hope
that's clear.

2334
03:23:40,735 --> 03:23:47,615
The miners would benefit if transaction fee rates went up, but that would be bad for
users.

2335
03:23:47,935 --> 03:23:55,535
The users may want something like privacy that may look bad to some investors.

2336
03:23:58,175 --> 03:24:05,695
The developer's priority is maybe their own prestige, or maybe even in just not
screwing

2337
03:24:05,695 --> 03:24:10,335
something up. So they would prioritize these frivolous refactorings of the code.

2338
03:24:11,215 --> 03:24:15,615
But if the developer ships something that makes sense, then it's a good thing.

2339
03:24:15,615 --> 03:24:18,655
But if the developer ships something that makes the miners a ton of money,

2340
03:24:19,455 --> 03:24:23,855
then the developer will not necessarily get any compensation for that.

2341
03:24:23,855 --> 03:24:25,775
So that's a conflict of interest right there.

2342
03:24:28,655 --> 03:24:33,935
I think for each, you could make a grid. And for each of those combinations, you
could see how

2343
03:24:33,935 --> 03:24:41,935
in each case, the interests do not always align. And so you could take any pair and
find

2344
03:24:42,655 --> 03:24:49,135
something where there was conflict. Developers often prioritize these complicated
things that

2345
03:24:49,135 --> 03:24:52,815
most people don't understand. For example, consider developers and users.

2346
03:24:54,415 --> 03:25:00,015
Developers really like something complicated, such as the Lightning Network, such as
Arc,

2347
03:25:00,015 --> 03:25:04,975
such as BitVM, such as ZK Rollup, something that only they understand so that they
will get

2348
03:25:05,615 --> 03:25:14,575
a paid job for years, or maybe even a whole career. And then what the regular user
wants

2349
03:25:14,575 --> 03:25:23,935
usually is simpler UX, better front end. They want stuff to be easier. They want
stuff to be

2350
03:25:26,655 --> 03:25:33,775
more self-explanatory. In many cases, they want something simple.

2351
03:25:34,575 --> 03:25:38,415
I have this thing, Deniability. There is a pull request that someone else made. It
wasn't me.

2352
03:25:40,255 --> 03:25:46,095
Deniability is just a tool where you click on it and it schedules you sending money
to yourself

2353
03:25:46,095 --> 03:25:51,375
in Bitcoin Core, full node. And the idea is just you turn this on and you forget
about it. And then

2354
03:25:51,375 --> 03:25:56,975
you're walking around, driving around town, buying a cup of coffee. And meanwhile,
your money is

2355
03:25:56,975 --> 03:26:00,975
being sent away. It looks like other people are spending the money. It's really all
going from

2356
03:26:00,975 --> 03:26:06,655
you to you. But it just looks like you don't have this money anymore. And then when
they arrest you

2357
03:26:06,655 --> 03:26:10,175
or whatever, you say, I don't own any Bitcoin anymore. And then they find all this
evidence

2358
03:26:10,175 --> 03:26:16,255
of the coins moving while you were, someone sent a Bitcoin transaction while you
were

2359
03:26:17,135 --> 03:26:24,175
on an airplane or something at random times. So that's a simple thing. And of
course,

2360
03:26:24,175 --> 03:26:28,975
nothing can ever prevent that. But it's almost too simple. You can't take credit for
it.

2361
03:26:29,855 --> 03:26:37,695
It's not like something like ZK moon math thing. So often what the users want and
what

2362
03:26:37,695 --> 03:26:42,015
the developers want is very different. One thing is that the user would certainly
want

2363
03:26:42,015 --> 03:26:46,895
is that the user would prefer that the software reaches a point where it is so good

2364
03:26:47,775 --> 03:26:53,215
that developers are no longer required to work on it or update it or even maintain
it.

2365
03:26:53,215 --> 03:26:59,535
They could just get into a very perfected state. But that would be terrible for many
developers.

2366
03:26:59,535 --> 03:27:05,455
They would immediately be out of a job. So, and of course, the developer also,

2367
03:27:05,455 --> 03:27:08,255
the developers and miners often have nothing in common with each other.

2368
03:27:12,655 --> 03:27:16,015
The investor wants the price to go up, but the user doesn't necessarily

2369
03:27:16,015 --> 03:27:20,415
care about what the price is if they're a real user. If they're like a Silk Road
type user,

2370
03:27:20,975 --> 03:27:25,855
for example, they don't care what the price is because they may be buying or selling
at any

2371
03:27:25,855 --> 03:27:32,495
given stage. They actually prefer the volatility below. But if you're an investor,
the downside

2372
03:27:32,495 --> 03:27:37,615
is capped at minus 100%, but the upside, it can easily more than double. So the
investor prefers

2373
03:27:38,335 --> 03:27:45,935
volatility. So I think that that would be a better thing for the miners to wake up
to the fact that

2374
03:27:45,935 --> 03:27:51,295
there are these conflicts of interest and that they themselves are, I think,
probably

2375
03:27:53,135 --> 03:27:59,375
suffering unnecessarily because they just have folded immediately kind of.

2376
03:28:05,455 --> 03:28:10,655
Yeah. Someone on Twitter actually said, wait, I should read the actual comment.

2377
03:28:11,615 --> 03:28:18,335
Where is it? Oh yeah. So Sid Tukul said, big brains talking right here. How do we
solve the

2378
03:28:18,335 --> 03:28:24,655
problem of no one listening? And he makes a good point because in the three hours in
which,

2379
03:28:24,655 --> 03:28:31,695
or during which we have been talking, we had 71 listeners on YouTube and 11 of them
are still

2380
03:28:31,695 --> 03:28:38,735
online. So thank you guys. You're the real heroes. And on Twitter, I think the
algorithm has buried

2381
03:28:39,535 --> 03:28:48,575
the post long time ago. Last time I checked, there were one, two people listening.

2382
03:28:50,175 --> 03:29:00,335
So I don't count on Elon's platform for live streams, but still the question is
valid. But

2383
03:29:00,335 --> 03:29:06,975
at the same time, what I've learned in five years of doing this podcast is that it's
not

2384
03:29:06,975 --> 03:29:14,335
quantity that matters. It's quality. It's not a matter of how many thousands of
listeners you get.

2385
03:29:14,335 --> 03:29:21,295
It's all about who's listening. Because if you get a listener who's involved and
knows how to

2386
03:29:21,295 --> 03:29:27,295
use this information, it's a net benefit for everyone involved. That's certainly
true. I

2387
03:29:27,295 --> 03:29:34,895
think it's only a matter of time also when maybe you privately know something and
then that

2388
03:29:34,895 --> 03:29:40,735
knowledge can pay off for you in a really big way like a lot of, especially in this
type of

2389
03:29:40,735 --> 03:29:46,655
industry where there's lots of people investing in lots of different things. So I
don't know

2390
03:29:46,655 --> 03:29:53,295
when or what exactly would form that might take, but I think that this is the kind
of thing where

2391
03:29:54,335 --> 03:30:01,295
if you develop your understanding to a very high level, I mean, just look at how
much money people

2392
03:30:01,295 --> 03:30:07,135
made investing in researching in Bitcoin, having a disproportionate understanding of
Bitcoin early

2393
03:30:07,135 --> 03:30:12,655
on and then making an investment based on that. People would have made a ton of
money. And so

2394
03:30:12,655 --> 03:30:17,695
I think it's a smart thing to do is just continue to improve your understanding

2395
03:30:18,735 --> 03:30:20,735
and maybe just wait. Who knows what will happen.

2396
03:30:22,815 --> 03:30:30,655
Well, I've met an OG who was using Mycelium on his phone and he was carrying like 20
Bitcoins

2397
03:30:30,655 --> 03:30:37,215
and that's more Bitcoin than I'll ever have. And I told him, you know, you're using
your address

2398
03:30:37,215 --> 03:30:42,495
and he was like, I don't care. And I was thinking, okay, he doesn't care.

2399
03:30:47,615 --> 03:30:52,895
It's like that sometimes. You find plebs who are super concerned about their setup
with

2400
03:30:52,975 --> 03:31:03,375
WasabiWallet, with Tor and they mix their 0.3 Bitcoin and they put it in cold
storage.

2401
03:31:05,215 --> 03:31:09,455
They do all the steps correctly and then you get some OG who's walking with a
hundred Bitcoins in

2402
03:31:09,455 --> 03:31:13,215
his pocket, not caring. People are like, oh, I plugged in an old hard drive.

2403
03:31:13,855 --> 03:31:19,135
Turns out there were whatever people say, like whatever, 500 Bitcoin there. Like, oh
man.

2404
03:31:20,095 --> 03:31:26,495
We even got a suggestion in the chat. Wrap it up, says Jackknife. Thank you for
listening,

2405
03:31:26,495 --> 03:31:28,655
Jackknife. I mean, it's admirable.

2406
03:31:28,655 --> 03:31:32,655
All right. We'll wrap it up then. It's been fun as always. Glad to see you later.

2407
03:31:33,695 --> 03:31:35,455
Yeah. Thanks, Paul.

2408
03:31:38,095 --> 03:31:41,055
And listen to the rest of the season. Honestly, it's really good.