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What up, Vigilantes?

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So today, I have the pleasure of introducing you guys to my favorite BTC Bitcoiner.

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And yeah, you really rock, Paul.

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The reason why is because I got a phone call in 2013-2014.

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I was working with the BitAngels Network, and I was putting together a venture
capital

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fund for Bitcoin.

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And I got this phone call from this guy that I know he would like to remain
anonymous,

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but he's a BTC maximalist now, and I highly respect this person to this day.

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He's incredible.

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There's this company called Blockstream, and they're looking for funding, and they
are

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promising this thing called sidechains.

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And so I had to go on a business trip, and when I got back the next week, they told
me,

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oh, they're fully funded.

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And I'm like, wait, wait a minute.

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This was weird for the first time in Bitcoin history that I saw a company get fully
funded

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right away.

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And so I researched a little bit more of it, and I was very hopeful for what
Blockstream

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at the time was promising, which was sidechains.

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Unfortunately, what ended up happening was that Blockstream really didn't deliver on

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the sidechains that they promised.

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But someone, Mr. Paul Sztorc here, in September 24th, 2018, released Drivechain.

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So congratulations on your two-year anniversary coming up, by the way.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, it's gotten a lot better over the last two years.

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So two years of a lot of progress.

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So could you please explain to everyone what a sidechain is, and maybe your version
of

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this story that I just told, and where we're at now?

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Yes.

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Well, unfortunately, there's a challenge, because there's a kind of slow battle over

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what the word means.

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But the definition I use is the same as had been used by Blockstream in the past, in
2014,

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2015, and that most people had agreed on, which is that a sidechain is a kind of
response

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to the altcoin.

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So a sidechain is an altcoin, but there's no tokens.

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There's no coins there.

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You have to send BTC from the mainchain over to the sidechain.

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And the sidechains can be these completely different pieces of software that can
have

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their own GitHub repository, their own dev team, and you can do any kind of crazy
thing

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that you can do on an altcoin on a sidechain.

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But it doesn't create any new coins or disturb the 21 million coin limit for
Bitcoin.

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At the time, there was, of course, you know, back when Blockstream was created in
2014,

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there was only one Bitcoin, and there wasn't even this concept of having.

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So sidechains are this response to, you know, what do we do if we don't like the
protocol

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rules?

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What if something like Ethereum or BitShares or whatever counterparty is not a great
example?

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But there were a lot of creative ideas at the time.

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And the thing was, well, with the sidechains thing, it'll just be slam dunk for
Bitcoin,

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which will steal all this technology, and the investor won't have to worry about
altcoins.

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Now, that obviously didn't happen at all.

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Hence the modern philosophy of worrying about them a lot and pretending,
unconvincingly,

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not to be worried about them.

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So okay, so let's get down to it, because I love Bitcoin, and I took this very
serious.

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And a lot of us took this very serious, because we understand the value of having
this experimental

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hijacking approach to discovering what's best for everyone, and all of a sudden, we
were

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just pushed to the side.

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And if you disagreed with what became dogma as the small blocker approach to scaling
via

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a second layer, you were the anathema, and that's wrong, and you can't even bring up

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anything that goes against the status quo in Bitcoin.

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And that was very upsetting.

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And the whole time I'm scratching my head, and I'm like, wait a minute, but is this
not

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what Blockstream promised?

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Is this not what we all wanted here?

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We wanted to have an experimental approach to figuring out what was best for
Bitcoin.

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And that was really the pull that really drove me to become even more of a BTC
maximalist

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at the time, which was, wow, there's going to be these amazing sidechains that will
allow

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me to experiment, and the market will determine best what sidechain provides value.

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And so-

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Yeah, that's what I thought as well.

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And so at the time, I mean, at the time, you were working on another project, right?

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Before Drivechains, right?

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Yeah.

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Well, maybe we should talk about that, because I had absolutely no intention of ever
doing

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any of this with Drivechain at all.

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So what set me on this path was that I was interested in something else, the
prediction

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market concept and the Futarki concept.

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And that kind of overlapped with my interest in Bitcoin, because there's people who
do

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this type of prediction market betting that I'm interested in often have a lot of
problems

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the same way that online poker had problems.

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So it kind of overlapped with Bitcoin.

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But with prediction markets, you needed a way to arbitrate the outcome.

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And it was kind of like a more like an exchange, like a Mt. Gox thing, where people
just put

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their money somewhere, and then that person would just decide who won, and it was
kind

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of this weird thing.

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So I was like, well, you know, we could do something crazy with Bitcoin.

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You know, this was before people even used the word blockchain, like for anything.

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This was like 2013, 2014, like, this was before the blockchain without Bitcoin meme
even had

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started.

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So I was thinking like Bitcoin and Namecoin.

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And I was like, I could do something like Namecoin, except it would resolve these,
what

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happened in the world.

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And then we could have prediction markets on Bitcoin, and that would be cool.

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But the problem was, it's such a, the modifications to Bitcoin are so extreme and
bizarre that

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you can't like, there was no way of ever arguing that it could be like soft forked
into BTC

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that would like could never happen.

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So along came the sidechain idea, or I think it was called the bilateral peg or
something

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in December 2013.

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And then over 2014, as I was kind of finishing what I was doing, they were kind of
ramping

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up the sidechain idea.

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And I was like, oh, perfect.

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So I thought I'll work on this, and they'll work on that, and we'll be finished at
the

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exact same time, and it'll be great.

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And so in around 2016, mid 2016, I had actually finished the prediction markets
project, which

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was called Truthcoin at the time.

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That was again, the Truthcoin name was before even, there were many eras, as people
who

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have been in the space for a long time will remember, there was this era when
everything

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was like named coin, like whatever, TerraCoin, and whatever, AuroraCoin, that was
like before

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the blocks, the block blockchain without Bitcoin era.

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And that was itself before this fork era that we're now in.

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So this was even before that, when I picked Truthcoin, I thought it would be like
Namecoin,

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and it wouldn't be a big deal.

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Then it was like this altcoin thing that people thought it was.

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So now that project has a website called BitcoinHiveMind.com.

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And there's lots of great information there.

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And you can see that the screenshots from the software, because we finished this, we

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didn't, you know, we didn't like, this software is never finished, but we finished
the, like

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first release of the software, a long time ago, 2016.

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Yeah, so for, okay, so this is very interesting, guys.

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Way before any DeFi, this is still to this day, it's way beyond anything that
currently

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exists, in my opinion, but it's like, sort of languishing, it's in a weird limbo
state.

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I don't know if you realize this, but, and this is, this goes on to what I'm gonna
say.

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So Augur is based on...

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Right, there was, I wrote this paper, Truthcoin was the title of this paper that I
wrote about

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how to do this.

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And there were a few people who are interested in pursuing the technology more
seriously.

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And what happened was, this was again, this was like before, it's hard to impress
upon

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people how different things were.

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At the time, I was like, I was like, very excited about the idea of other people
doing

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all the work and me kind of not just saying, I wrote this paper.

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Good luck to the world, you know, I'm so happy you like my idea.

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And so I wasn't really this, it's completely different than what it like is now
where someone

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like writes a paper and then the ICO and collect like million, tens of millions of
dollars

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like immediately.

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And then they're like a kind of king, they're like a Dan Lamb or Vitalik Buterin,
like king

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of a fiefdom or something.

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This is completely different than that.

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I was like, you guys do it.

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And then if you know, you guys want to like, do all this work and deal with possibly
deal

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with regulators or deal with what country you want to live in, and then good luck to

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you, you know.

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You were on the board of Augur, right?

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Yeah, well, they, they were, they were one of the people who are taking this very
seriously.

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A lot of people actually took up the head of a forum a long time ago that I still
have

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forum.Truthcoin.info.

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You can still look it up.

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And you can see, oh, there's like all this old stuff from like 2014, 2015.

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And people, different people kind of interested in the idea.

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And they were one but they, Vitalik kind of captured them.

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He went in, he said, oh, we have to do it on Ethereum.

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And I thought that was a terrible idea.

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There was a different person who is doing it more in the Bitcoin way with, you know,

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like a variant of fork of Bitcoin C++.

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So I thought that was going to be way better.

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I thought obviously that Blockstream would deliver the sidechains link.

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And then it was in November 2015, I was kind of like feeling like that there I was
because

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I was watching the progress carefully because I was like, I'm going to have to
integrate

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with whatever Blockstream's sidechains thing is.

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But they weren't making any progress at all.

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So I wrote this blog post about Drivechain in November 2015 while I was not working
on

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it, while I was just still working on Bitcoin Hivemind and the prediction market
stuff.

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So that was November 2015.

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And then it was like basically mid-2016.

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We kind of finished a lot of the, because I had kind of now sort of teamed up or
sort

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of endorsed this Bitcoin version.

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So that was kind of like had reached its first version in 2016.

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And so then I started this conversation about Drivechain, about like what to do.

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Like what do I do now?

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Because it's done.

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It's, of course, and again, it's not like finished, finished, but it was like ready

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for someone to do something with it.

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So I was like, what to do?

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And then in 2016, I was like, let's have a big conversation.

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I put these big YouTube videos on about Drivechain, and one of them is like five and
a half hours

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long and it's in like four parts.

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The other one's in five parts and it's like four hours long.

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So these big, they're all just about like theory of sidechains and about what should

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people be worried about and isn't Drivechain actually a lot better than the
Blockstream

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skip list?

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And they haven't, no one has worked on it.

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And then Blockstream was going the other direction.

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They were going hardcore into this federation, which they had always maintained was
a kind

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of fake Band-Aid temporary thing.

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And in fact, one thing I would find interesting is if someone, a lot of people at
Blockstream

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have sort of since weaseled into the position that liquid is a sidechain by the
original

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definition.

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But one person who has never done that, to my knowledge, would be Greg Maxwell, who
always

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insisted that the federated thing was this kind of temporary patch.

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And so I would find it very interesting if someone could ask for his opinion on
this.

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I think to his credit, he has always refused to say that liquid is like a real
sidechain.

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And he had many video clips of him and quotes of him saying that it is just a kind
of alternative

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to the true, the real two-way peg, which would be this kind of process in the
blockchain

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for making the sidechains and sending coins to them and receiving from them.

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So that is, it's kind of a weird situation to have landed myself in.

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And then I presented about Drivechain or about sidechains at Scaling3 in September
20, excuse

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me, October 2016.

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And then I got some more feedback and kind of in 2017, it was kind of clear to me
that

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we could, like, it would probably be good to work on this because it seemed like no

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one was working on the actual sidechains and they were probably going to be more
important

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than ever because the block size debate, which has always gotten crazier and crazier
and

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crazier was, of course, at that point, it's at its craziest point yet.

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And so I was like, well, what I presented at Scaling3 was the idea of having the
small

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block main chain and having the large block sidechain and just having everyone get
what

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they want.

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And so I was like, this is like a no-brainer idea, way better than having everyone
continue

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to fight forever because it's clear that there's not going to be like, there's no
agreement

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now anymore.

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The first Scaling conferences, there was like a sort of agreement concept, but by
Scaling3,

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everyone just like hated each other and there was no good faith, anything,
everything was

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like going crazy.

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So that's kind of how I got into that.

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And then it just, I don't know, it just took a little bit longer than I thought to,
you

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know, kind of bang out the release and do the bips and do other stuff.

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I made another video about like responding to criticism.

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I had tons of stuff on drivechain.info is the site and there's just tons of stuff
there

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that is just slowly accumulated over the last, I think I made it in January, 2017.

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So over the last three, almost four years, it has just accumulated all kinds of blog

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posts, writings, links to big YouTube videos, presentations and responses.

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It's like FAQs, there's stuff where I reply to peer review and there's just tons of
stuff.

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There's memes there, there's everything, anything you can want, dude.

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I just love how ironic it is that this idea has been constantly in BTC been pushed
to

220
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:05,180
the side, pushed to the side.

221
00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:10,620
This idea of let's just figure out and let's figure out by experimenting in the
market

222
00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:12,020
and letting the market decide.

223
00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:21,140
I mean, it seems as if you are very much open to different perspectives and it lends
to

224
00:15:21,140 --> 00:15:27,700
the creation of Drivechains, which is your version of sidechains and because
Drivechains

225
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:30,540
allows us to experiment on the Bitcoin blockchain.

226
00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:35,260
And so now my question to you is, is that going to be possible in BTC?

227
00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:38,940
I mean, it seems like, is it going to be possible?

228
00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:44,620
Well, enthusiasm has been very low for it, which is kind of interesting.

229
00:15:44,620 --> 00:15:49,380
You get more enthusiasm from, you get more enthusiasm for what you're doing for BTC
from

230
00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:52,740
people outside BTC, which to me is mind boggling.

231
00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:55,660
Well, I get some, I get a lot of secret support.

232
00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:56,780
I do get a lot of secrets.

233
00:15:56,780 --> 00:16:01,260
People message me and they say, I don't want to say anything, but it does seem like
those

234
00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:07,060
other guys who are criticizing you are wrong and they don't know what they're
talking about.

235
00:16:07,060 --> 00:16:09,780
And why wouldn't they want to say anything?

236
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:10,780
Why wouldn't they want to say anything?

237
00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:11,780
Yeah, no, there is.

238
00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:16,740
There's absolutely true that there is a kind of, there is a kind of what they call
the

239
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:24,060
chilling effects or there is a, the culture in BTC has become very intolerant of
dissent.

240
00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:30,700
So it now demands that everything be sort of a certain way, which is greatly to its

241
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:32,700
detriment.

242
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:36,260
So yeah, people are afraid to, you know, what can, what can you do?

243
00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:41,020
I think it's obvious that, I mean, a lot of places have a lot of money, it's like
Blockstream

244
00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:42,020
and Chaincode.

245
00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:43,980
They have money, they have a lot of prestige.

246
00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:50,180
People there get invited all around the world to talk, to, you know, to like do
whatever

247
00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:51,540
they want all the time.

248
00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:55,860
There's no oversight really, that it really can't be fired.

249
00:16:55,860 --> 00:17:01,820
I did write a post, one of the posts on drivechain.info is a post about why
Drivechain is harder to

250
00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:09,060
understand than other soft forks of Bitcoin, because it is different in a lot of
ways.

251
00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:13,620
I think that's a very charitable way of putting it.

252
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:17,540
The other thing to point out though, is that Drivechain, the security model is like
very

253
00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:18,540
different.

254
00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:25,540
So it's possible that the sidechain will fail and all the money in it will be lost.

255
00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:30,100
But my point of view is that that should just be up to the user when they, as long
as the

256
00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:34,780
user is fully informed, they, first of all, it's possible, but I think it's
extremely

257
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:37,340
unlikely, but it is possible.

258
00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:42,740
And the user can choose, like I was literally at, I was in, where was I, I was in
Amsterdam

259
00:17:42,860 --> 00:17:50,980
and I was talking to Peter Will of BTC, he's like a super smart, super nice guy,
very important

260
00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:52,740
in the BTC world.

261
00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:53,740
He's like doing everything.

262
00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:57,540
And I was talking, and I told him something that I've told many people where they
were

263
00:17:57,540 --> 00:18:02,180
like, well, you know, they've said stuff like, you know, I've heard all kinds of, I
don't

264
00:18:02,180 --> 00:18:06,220
want to put any comments in his mouth, but I've heard lots of comments from him and
people

265
00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:09,820
like him that are something like, you know, this idea is really good, but it's just
too

266
00:18:09,820 --> 00:18:11,820
experimental and weird for BTC.

267
00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:15,420
Well, that's what it's supposed to be experimental.

268
00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:17,860
Well, it's fully opt-in is the other thing.

269
00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:19,140
So this is where this is going.

270
00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:23,420
But people have even said something like some, some people, some who work for
Blockstream

271
00:18:23,420 --> 00:18:27,620
have said something like, if it were on BTC, I would use it, but I don't think it
should

272
00:18:27,620 --> 00:18:31,260
be like in BTC or it's too weird for BTC or something like that.

273
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:32,980
So that even makes even less sense.

274
00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:36,660
But what I told him is something I've said many times.

275
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:43,300
I say, well, if someone owns BTC, you know, should they be allowed to sell the BTC
for

276
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:44,460
fiat currency?

277
00:18:44,460 --> 00:18:48,100
And of course, people say yes, because how can that not be the case?

278
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:54,580
I say, well, if someone owns BTC, shouldn't they be allowed to sell the BTC for an
alt

279
00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:58,220
coin? And again, yeah, of course, like you have to, it's your money, right?

280
00:18:58,500 --> 00:18:59,580
You have to say that they're allowed.

281
00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:05,300
With Drivechain, just asking people to be allowed to send their own BTC to like a
weird

282
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,980
script, the Drivechain, like bizarre scripts and enter the Drivechain system.

283
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:18,860
And so I don't understand what the basis for that being prohibited, but you can sell
your

284
00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:22,660
BTC for an alt coin, but you can't put them in, you can't send them to this script.

285
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,020
That would be, you know, that would be the end of the world.

286
00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:28,180
That would be no good. That would be too weird.

287
00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:38,180
So how about for the listener right now, let's, if you could please explain what,
how drive

288
00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:41,380
chain works or how it would work on BTC.

289
00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:49,260
Well, it does a very bold thing where instead of relying on proof, which is
unfortunately

290
00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:53,700
impossible, it relies on a kind of conjecture and refutation.

291
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:59,740
So the only way that the sidechain can fail is if this value, which is the hex value
that

292
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,380
is printed in the GUI of the miner at the bottom of the ribbon where everyone can
see

293
00:20:03,380 --> 00:20:08,540
it, if that value doesn't match a value on the main chain for, which is just 32
bytes,

294
00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:10,020
it's very short, humans can read it.

295
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:18,100
If that doesn't match for around three to six months and no one does anything about

296
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:23,220
it, then the coins can be withdrawn to different owners so they can be stolen
basically.

297
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:28,740
But as long as they match, then you get all the benefits that you would like of
moving

298
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:33,860
to the other pieces. So it's like it's very hard because I don't know like what
people

299
00:20:33,860 --> 00:20:38,420
are working with, like if they, what they know about how Bitcoin works already or
what

300
00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:43,580
they know about, you know, like how Liquid works or something else.

301
00:20:43,860 --> 00:20:46,500
So it's very difficult to kind of explain.

302
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:52,140
But the good news is now that we have the software, the versions of the software
released,

303
00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:56,740
I'd say anyone who really wants to know what should probably just download the two
pieces

304
00:20:56,740 --> 00:21:02,940
of software. We have a testnet main chain and a test sidechain, and then you can
send

305
00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:07,540
coins back and forth. And then I think it's probably better if they just ask any
questions

306
00:21:07,540 --> 00:21:11,540
they have, because it's actually, it's weird, it's kind of a complicated thing, even

307
00:21:11,540 --> 00:21:13,300
though it seems pretty simple to me.

308
00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:20,780
The meat of it is that it's easy for the sidechain to be asymmetric in one
direction.

309
00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:24,380
So the sidechain has, in order to run a full node of the sidechain, you need a
full

310
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:26,180
node of main chain Bitcoin.

311
00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:29,340
So that way it can easily tell when coins are sent to it.

312
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:34,460
The only difficult thing over merge mining, it's very easy to get this blockchain to

313
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:39,340
advance, even though it doesn't have a block subsidy, it doesn't have the 6.25
coins.

314
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:42,460
So a lot of the things are actually very easy.

315
00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:48,220
The only difficult thing is how, what happens when the coins come back from the sidechain

316
00:21:48,220 --> 00:21:50,820
to the main chain? If you say, I got all these sidechain coins, I want to redeem
them

317
00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:57,060
from main chain coins at this one to one rate, then they're all grouped into a
thing.

318
00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:58,860
And this happens only once every three months.

319
00:21:58,860 --> 00:22:01,820
So it's very rare. They're all grouped together.

320
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,940
And this one thing slowly kind of moves across.

321
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:09,860
It's like a train slowly moving from New York City to Los Angeles or something in
full

322
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:15,580
view of everyone. And since it's all bundled together, everything is bundled in with
like

323
00:22:15,620 --> 00:22:21,300
the headers and all the hashes of all the transactions.

324
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:27,220
So this is all identified by this one ID, this hash ID, and the sidechain
constructs

325
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:31,380
it to pay out who needs to be paid out in the main chain.

326
00:22:31,420 --> 00:22:34,540
The main chain just copies this transaction in the ID.

327
00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:39,460
And that's the only thing that the main chain sees, because the design criterion for
side

328
00:22:39,460 --> 00:22:42,660
chains is that it should be possible for anyone who doesn't like the sidechain to
just

329
00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:48,180
ignore it. So if you want to think like Luke Jr., he doesn't want any large blocks

330
00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:53,460
anywhere. So you have to tell, you have to be able to tell him, look, we're going to
make

331
00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:56,420
a large block sidechain, but you will never be affected by it.

332
00:22:56,420 --> 00:22:58,100
You'll never need to see what goes on there.

333
00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:02,460
And so money is going to be paid into this little box.

334
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:06,460
All these coins will be going in to the sidechain from Luke Jr.'s point of view.

335
00:23:07,460 --> 00:23:11,220
And then coins will be coming out and Luke Jr.

336
00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:15,540
won't know why the coins are going where they're going, but he'll be able to check
that they

337
00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:20,180
follow the Drivechain rules, which are different from the rules of a large block
side

338
00:23:20,180 --> 00:23:23,540
chain. And so this is where it gets like kind of weird.

339
00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:30,020
But basically, you want him to be able to be sleep soundly at night, knowing that he

340
00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:32,860
never has to care about what happened on this large block sidechain.

341
00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:36,260
The large block sidechain could be run by total morons.

342
00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:41,060
And that is what allows that competition you mentioned before to take place very
safely

343
00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:43,820
because people are free to try out their weird ideas.

344
00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:46,940
If the ideas are a success, they'll attract users.

345
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:51,420
If the ideas fail, they don't bring down BTC.

346
00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:54,340
They just bring down the sidechain that they're on.

347
00:23:55,820 --> 00:23:57,140
So I remember.

348
00:23:57,820 --> 00:23:58,860
No, of course, of course.

349
00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:04,900
I think I think what would help a little bit more is an explanation on how money is,
how

350
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:13,260
Bitcoin, BTC or Bitcoin would be put into the, I think it would be a wallet, right?

351
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:15,260
It would go into, Bitcoin would go into a wallet.

352
00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:16,940
Something like that. It's something like that.

353
00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:22,340
There is actually for each sidechain that exists, there is a publicly known key
pair

354
00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:27,780
with a, excuse me, public and private key that's known to everyone.

355
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:29,420
So everyone knows the private key.

356
00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:33,740
And but because the rules of the software, there's extra rules on anything spent
from it.

357
00:24:34,340 --> 00:24:39,620
So when you spend money, you're just depositing to this, you're sending it to this
address,

358
00:24:39,620 --> 00:24:42,220
basically. It's not a fixed address.

359
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,100
But you, the software knows where to send the coins.

360
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:48,660
So you're sending the coins to this place.

361
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:53,340
And then the trick is the coins can only be withdrawn if they do this weird
ceremony, which

362
00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:54,580
is the three month thing.

363
00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:57,140
Yeah, so there's so there's a.

364
00:24:57,839 --> 00:25:19,839
So you guys made it as seamless as possible for the miners itself, to be able to
incorporate Drivechains. The now there is a, you added a way if there is a, there's
a lot of protecting of the miners and of the Drivechain. What do you call them?
Channels that are open? Drivechain? What do you call them?

365
00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:48,839
Oh, yeah, I mean, that's funny. We sort of call them slots. There's like 256 slots,
an individual when you if you want to have a piece of software that you want, you
can try to take slot number four, or so. And those are added, those are assigned
kind of like soft forks with it's like a lot like BIP-9 activation, which is like
how SegWit tried to be activated that one time when there was like BU hash rate
versus SegWit.

366
00:25:48,839 --> 00:26:09,839
And it was that kind of thing that was called BIP-9. Back in the day, that was a 95%
miner signaling. And so we have like a GUI for this. But it's basically that same
idea of assigning the to assigning a new piece of software to the slot. But that
other than that, the main chain doesn't know what that software is doing.

367
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:14,839
So there's a lag of time that that is that was proposed.

368
00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:51,839
Awesome. Um, yeah, I guess I don't want to get too technical here. I just I just
know I know it's like, I think it's

369
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:57,839
Yeah, miners are protected. And there was a I think there was like a three month
time span.

370
00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:00,839
Yes.

371
00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:01,839
Was that correct?

372
00:27:01,839 --> 00:27:02,839
Yes.

373
00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:04,839
Can you explain that?

374
00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:21,839
So this is another source of misunderstanding, unfortunately, yes. So this is where
I think it might be. It's kind of weird because a lot of this stuff is it's so the
three month thing is for security purposes, but a regular user would almost
certainly never need to actually do this.

375
00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:32,839
So the people would walk this the coins across slowly would be like specialists that
would be like people who own it would be like Eric Voorhees or Andreas Brecken or
the people who run the exchanges.

376
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:47,839
And what that does is that that enforces this one to one peg. So you since this is
the weakest part, it's the weakest part. Everything else is rock solid. Basically,
there's only two there are two weaknesses in sidechain technology.

377
00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:55,839
One is how do you know that the sidechain will even find any blocks because there's
no block reward there. There's no like 50 new coins each time.

378
00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:08,839
So you have to merge mining and just having default settings and having transaction
fees on the sidechain will be enough. If that doesn't work, it's it bodes very
poorly for Bitcoin itself.

379
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:20,839
When the subsidy runs down, it says it may warn us in advance of some new problem.
But the big thing is that you cannot have people on the main chain care about what
the sidechain is doing.

380
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:27,839
But given that on the sidechain money is changing hands, how do you know who the
rightful owner is when it comes back?

381
00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:39,839
So that's the weakest part. So since that was the weakest part, I forced it into
this. It's kind of like letting someone out of prison through this giant series of
gates that is very transparent.

382
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:47,839
And, you know, there's lots of cameras and there's there's like 13,150 gates and
they have to slowly walk through each one.

383
00:28:48,839 --> 00:29:07,839
So that there's no surprises with any way if something only gets through if
basically there was unanimous consent that the hash reported by the sidechain and in
the sidechain header and publicly announced as loudly as possible as tiny piece of
information matches the

384
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:14,839
the conjectured one on the main chain. And that's that's what takes three months.
But a regular user would never really need to do that.

385
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:20,839
They can just use any kind of atomic swap or they can use like, you know, side shift
or they can use an exchange.

386
00:29:20,839 --> 00:29:32,839
They would be able to swap sidechain coins for main chain coins and they would be
basically at a one to one rate because of this alternative thing that, while slow,
always credits you exactly.

387
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:44,839
However, many sidechains are being moved across 48 sidechains destroyed, 48 BTC now
given to the new main chain owners. So that's always one to one.

388
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:48,839
How do you how do you plan on garnering support from miners?

389
00:29:50,839 --> 00:29:51,839
Well, I mean, I think...

390
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:54,839
Is there an economic incentive for them to merge mine?

391
00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,839
Yeah, well, I think there is. Yeah.

392
00:29:58,839 --> 00:30:14,839
Drivechain is a new soft fork of BTC. So theoretically, it would have to be enforced
by either miners or nodes or, you know, have to be UASF or BIP9 activated or
something in order to work.

393
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:29,839
As to how, you know, I don't know why miners wouldn't like it, because part of what
Drivechain does is it gives Bitcoin the property of every other cryptocurrency
potentially.

394
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:37,839
So if you wanted to have Bitcoin do what Zcash does or even what Ethereum does or
what Monero does, you could have it do that.

395
00:30:38,839 --> 00:30:40,839
You would think that would make the price of Bitcoin go up.

396
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,839
But the other thing is that there is the way that Drivechain does merge mining.

397
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:52,839
It just automatically gives all miners all of the transaction fees paid on the main
chain and all the sidechains.

398
00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:56,839
And it gives them to all the miners in BTC on the main chain.

399
00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:11,839
They don't even get – if the sidechain earns four sidechain coins, sidechain BTC in
its block, that is paid to a different person who pays four BTC out on the main
chain.

400
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:19,839
So it's all without them doing really any work. Miners don't have to run any
sidechain nodes if they don't want to.

401
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:26,839
Probably the pools would, just so they can see what's going on. I mean, I don't know
if that even matters.

402
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:32,839
But miners don't have to do any more work, and they just collect more – they collect
all the transaction fees.

403
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:35,839
So it would seem to be free money for them.

404
00:31:35,839 --> 00:31:45,839
And it would also try to put an end to all of this political squabbling that I think
has dramatically set everything back, set Bitcoin back by years.

405
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:51,839
So how can we help you promote or help make this happen?

406
00:31:51,839 --> 00:32:04,839
Because it seems like everyone that comes – all these technocrats that come into
these chains and these open source developers, everyone thinks that they know what's
best for the network.

407
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:07,839
And they want to impose that perspective on the rest.

408
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:13,839
And that ego is really the source of all these problems.

409
00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:17,839
And my question is, well, what can we do? I have two questions for you.

410
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:22,839
What can we do to help you promote sidechains?

411
00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:29,839
And why is it that they don't want to experiment with scaling?

412
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:42,839
Yeah, well, that's – it is interesting you bring that up about the – that most
people have a point of view in Bitcoin that just goes something like, well, they
think that they're right.

413
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:58,839
And so in particular, in the scaling debate, there was basically – there was a
theory or whatever you want to call it for most people that the small block position
was right and that everything else, the large block position was a kind of
contaminant.

414
00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:13,839
And you had to keep it far away from everyone. You had to be – that was the root of
having it be designated as off topic on rBitcoin and on BitcoinTalk.org.

415
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:28,839
And so that is very different from what Drivechain is. Drivechain is sort of like
saying no matter how bad this idea is, wouldn't you rather have it inside the BTC
family?

416
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:36,839
Let's just – and then you can just cheer all the ideas on because if any of them
were good, then it helps BTC.

417
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,839
So that's – it is a big difference.

418
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:46,839
I don't know. I think one – there are a lot of reasons why people aren't interested
in experimenting.

419
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:57,839
One, I think it's just because there's been so much success already, and a lot of it
is attributed to the maintaining the small block.

420
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:02,839
So a lot of people say, look, BTC is the number one coin. Stuff has been going
great.

421
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:12,839
There are a lot of people out there who are just like ultra wealthy, and they want
to put some of their money in BTC because they don't want their accounts to be
frozen and things.

422
00:34:12,839 --> 00:34:21,839
So a lot of people are happy to use it as a kind of super elitist bank that is not
for payments, like a Swiss bank.

423
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:23,839
Just another Swiss bank.

424
00:34:23,839 --> 00:34:28,839
The new meme is called it's a savings technology. I think that's so ridiculous.

425
00:34:29,839 --> 00:34:42,839
I mean because if you save money, it's for two reasons. It's to get limited time
offers, meaning that you're waiting for things that are going to be on sale at a
limited time.

426
00:34:42,839 --> 00:34:46,839
In other words, you have to be ready to divest right away.

427
00:34:46,839 --> 00:34:51,839
As soon as the deal comes into the market, and the most liquid good is money.

428
00:34:51,839 --> 00:35:00,839
So if you're going to have good money, you can't be having the possibility of being
stuck in a mempool for hours or maybe even days.

429
00:35:00,839 --> 00:35:07,839
And having giant transaction fees that you don't even know how much you're going to
end up paying until you're at the mempool.

430
00:35:07,839 --> 00:35:13,839
And so this whole idea of just having a savings technology really, to me, it's kind
of trite.

431
00:35:13,839 --> 00:35:21,839
It needs to be a good savings technology. It needs to also be easy to spend. That's
my perspective.

432
00:35:21,839 --> 00:35:27,839
Well, I think that if I can, I don't know to what extent I can. I'm very different
from a lot of the BTC people.

433
00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:35,839
But I think to the extent that I could speak for where their head is at, is I think
they do think they have a lot of these people who are like.

434
00:35:36,839 --> 00:35:44,839
Let's say you've got someone who's got $100 million and they say, you know what, I'd
like to put $5 million in BTC.

435
00:35:44,839 --> 00:35:52,839
And I'm going to do that with one transaction. And then that way, if anything bad
happens to me, I know that I can always, I'll be okay.

436
00:35:52,839 --> 00:35:57,839
Because I can flee the country that I'm in and I can get my BTC somewhere.

437
00:35:57,839 --> 00:36:02,839
And then I'll at least have $5 million and that'll be great.

438
00:36:02,839 --> 00:36:09,839
And I'll never have to go back to working a job or whatever. So those people just
think, well, I just want this to be like a super secure bank.

439
00:36:09,839 --> 00:36:13,839
I don't want anyone messing around with it or turning it into something else.

440
00:36:13,839 --> 00:36:22,839
And we just want to go for that one customer. So it's kind of like only operating.
It's like an airline that only sells first class seats.

441
00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:30,839
Yeah, it doesn't even make sense because when you need it the most, you won't be
able to take out your money when that rainy day comes.

442
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:33,839
You might have obstacles to take out that money.

443
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:39,839
They have in mind that it's just going to be like $5 million. Well, a lot of these
people are, of course, people just chasing the price action.

444
00:36:39,839 --> 00:36:51,839
So those people are, there's nothing saving those people. Those people will be
misled into every weird idea until they lose any of the money that they accidentally
make by being in BTC.

445
00:36:51,839 --> 00:37:02,839
But a lot of the core users, well, we have people who are using it for stuff like
online drug transactions, a capital flight, whatever, tax evasion.

446
00:37:02,839 --> 00:37:17,839
So there is obviously that going on as far as use. But the investors, I think they
have in mind like one $5 million transaction in and then sometime in the future, one
$5 million transaction out.

447
00:37:18,839 --> 00:37:22,839
They see it as a kind of like buying a bunker or something like that. I don't know.

448
00:37:22,839 --> 00:37:29,839
Again, with Drivechain, it's like we should sell all the seats to everyone and we
should have first class and business class and economy.

449
00:37:31,839 --> 00:37:41,839
Everything else just has one chain where it's a one size fits all, where you just
kind of hope that everyone should be in economy or whatever. I don't know.

450
00:37:41,839 --> 00:37:51,839
But that's just kind of what I think the BTC point is. But I'm very different from
many BTCers, so I don't know to what extent I'm representative of that.

451
00:37:51,839 --> 00:38:03,839
So that's kind of, I think, why they're not so experimental minded. They're like,
we're this kind of, I don't know if even conservative is the right word.

452
00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:12,839
We're this kind of like, we've been here forever. We're like the bank that's been
around for like 2,000 years in Switzerland or Italy or something.

453
00:38:12,839 --> 00:38:20,839
And we're going to be here for 2,000 more years and some upstart is telling us to do
this or that and we're just not going to listen to them.

454
00:38:20,839 --> 00:38:30,839
So I think that's kind of what they think about. And part of it is just that if
something works for a long time, people just think, oh, this is because we did that.

455
00:38:30,839 --> 00:38:44,839
This is because we listened to whoever, XYZ person, and they must be right about
everything, even about things like music and diet and everything.

456
00:38:45,839 --> 00:38:53,839
I deserve to have earned all this money because of how great I am. And so then
everyone just kind of becomes a crazy person.

457
00:38:53,839 --> 00:39:03,839
But BTC has been number one the whole time, so it's hard to argue that. I think it
would be easier if the price were down or if fees were up again.

458
00:39:03,839 --> 00:39:14,839
I think eventually, if there was a lot of pain and misery on BTC, the search for new
ideas would become more frantic at that point.

459
00:39:14,839 --> 00:39:18,839
Yeah, it seems to me like you're waiting for them to…

460
00:39:18,839 --> 00:39:24,839
We are still working on it and tinkering on it. So it's not as though it was
finished and we're just like waiting around.

461
00:39:25,839 --> 00:39:36,839
We've been working on it the whole time. The original release was a prototype two
years ago. It's still, in my opinion, it's unfinished.

462
00:39:36,839 --> 00:39:43,839
So we have to finish it first, although it's very, very close to being completely
finished, I think.

463
00:39:43,839 --> 00:39:48,839
A lot of our work is not on the main chain. We wrote this other thing, a sidechain
template.

464
00:39:48,839 --> 00:40:02,839
So it'd be very easy to swap in new stuff, put in Zcash stuff, put in whatever you
want, Namecoin stuff, put in large block, put in BCH, put in BSV stuff.

465
00:40:02,839 --> 00:40:16,839
So we did a lot of work on that for a while because the way Drivechain works cannot
really be understood by only looking at what it does on the main chain work of it.

466
00:40:16,839 --> 00:40:23,839
Even though Drivechain is this idea for BTC, what it does on BTC would be very
confusing.

467
00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:26,839
It would be like if you built a radio, but you only built one of them.

468
00:40:27,839 --> 00:40:35,839
It's doing a lot of stuff with the antenna, but without two radios, you really
wouldn't get what was supposed to be happening at all.

469
00:40:35,839 --> 00:40:45,839
If you gave it to someone who had never seen or heard of radio technology and you
only gave them one radio, if you gave them two radios, any layperson would figure it
out.

470
00:40:45,839 --> 00:40:49,839
They'd be like, oh, this is cool. You can talk to someone from far away. That's
awesome.

471
00:40:50,839 --> 00:40:55,839
That's why we did a lot of work on making the sidechain template look flashy.

472
00:40:55,839 --> 00:41:06,839
It was really important for me to make it explain what was going on because there
were so many misconceptions in the BTC community about how Drivechain works.

473
00:41:06,839 --> 00:41:11,839
Most people will criticize it, but they have absolutely no idea what they're talking
about.

474
00:41:11,839 --> 00:41:13,839
They say stuff that's not even close to true.

475
00:41:14,839 --> 00:41:30,839
I wanted it to be so that both pieces of software had a nice GUI that showed people
just exactly what was happening every step of the way so that they would just know
how it worked much better than the people who –

476
00:41:30,839 --> 00:41:34,839
Giacomo Zucco, Peter Todd, and the other people who have criticized it.

477
00:41:34,839 --> 00:41:41,839
Just any random user would just see that those people had no idea what they were
talking about and still don't.

478
00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:51,839
I like the analogy you used to use regarding Bitcoin being in different parties at
the same time or different rooms.

479
00:41:51,839 --> 00:41:53,839
Maybe you can allude to that.

480
00:41:53,839 --> 00:41:54,839
Yes.

481
00:41:54,839 --> 00:41:58,839
If the hot sidechains would allow you to do this experiment.

482
00:41:58,839 --> 00:42:06,839
It's very similar to the point about everyone flying first class or everyone flying
economy or having a plane where they're all mixed together.

483
00:42:06,839 --> 00:42:15,839
The usual sense in which I do that metaphor of the party is the idea of a hard fork
being problematic.

484
00:42:15,839 --> 00:42:23,839
So if you ever throw a big party, sometimes people get – they clump in some room for
some reason.

485
00:42:23,839 --> 00:42:29,839
It's the kitchen because the refrigerator is there, or there's like a narrow
hallway, but there's still enough space for all the people who are there.

486
00:42:29,839 --> 00:42:35,839
It depends, but people clump in some area, and then new people will show up only to
talk to those people.

487
00:42:35,839 --> 00:42:37,839
And then they'll make little groups.

488
00:42:37,839 --> 00:42:39,839
So it clumps up.

489
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:41,839
It clumps as a gravity.

490
00:42:41,839 --> 00:42:44,839
You get little stuff, and then people attract other people.

491
00:42:44,839 --> 00:42:50,839
So they're all in one room, and you can't easily just get people to say – you can't
say, look, everyone, it's much better.

492
00:42:50,839 --> 00:42:52,839
Why don't we all go to the other room?

493
00:42:52,839 --> 00:42:53,839
Why don't we go to the living room?

494
00:42:53,839 --> 00:42:55,839
Why don't we go to the patio outside?

495
00:42:55,839 --> 00:42:57,839
You can't really do that.

496
00:42:57,839 --> 00:43:00,839
You have to just let the party just do its thing.

497
00:43:00,839 --> 00:43:04,839
So that's this metaphor of the hard fork being very difficult.

498
00:43:04,839 --> 00:43:09,839
Hard fork is like someone just saying, you know, we're all going to the patio,

499
00:43:09,839 --> 00:43:15,839
but then there has to be those few people who walk out first, and then basically
other people don't join them.

500
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:17,839
So then they have to come back.

501
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:22,839
They have to eventually come back inside, and then they've embarrassed themselves.

502
00:43:22,839 --> 00:43:31,839
So I think that's similar to the stigma and the sheer amount of work you have to do
if you want to make the hard fork succeed.

503
00:43:31,839 --> 00:43:34,839
So the hard fork is very difficult to make the hard fork succeed.

504
00:43:34,839 --> 00:43:40,839
But with Drivechain, it's just saying everyone is at the same – everyone is sort of
in the same room,

505
00:43:40,839 --> 00:43:42,839
even though they – some people prefer to be in one room.

506
00:43:42,839 --> 00:43:46,839
They can talk to people in a different room, or so everyone is in the same coin.

507
00:43:46,839 --> 00:43:49,839
They don't have to leave to be – if you want to talk to someone on the patio,

508
00:43:49,839 --> 00:43:52,839
you can just like use telekinesis or something.

509
00:43:52,839 --> 00:43:57,839
That's kind of like – what Drivechain does is it undoes.

510
00:43:57,839 --> 00:44:01,839
It says that you don't need to do hard forks if you want to make redesigns.

511
00:44:01,839 --> 00:44:06,839
So if you want to increase the block size, if you want to add turn-complete
scripting,

512
00:44:06,839 --> 00:44:14,839
if you want to do whatever, ring signatures, you don't need to make everyone redo
what their node is doing.

513
00:44:14,839 --> 00:44:18,839
You just have this new zone, and then other people can go there if they like.

514
00:44:18,839 --> 00:44:23,839
But they're still part of the same – so it kind of lets you try going out onto the
porch,

515
00:44:23,839 --> 00:44:25,839
but coming back without ever being embarrassed.

516
00:44:25,839 --> 00:44:29,839
It's like secretly you're in both places at once or something.

517
00:44:29,839 --> 00:44:34,839
Yeah, well, from my perspective, I was kicked out of the party, me and a bunch of
people,

518
00:44:34,839 --> 00:44:38,839
because yeah, we wanted to play a certain music in a room.

519
00:44:38,839 --> 00:44:40,839
Yeah, exactly.

520
00:44:40,839 --> 00:44:42,839
They told us, you just get out of the house.

521
00:44:42,839 --> 00:44:46,839
So we're like, okay, I guess party at the next door.

522
00:44:46,839 --> 00:44:52,839
And it seems like everyone that's next door having an awesome party may not be as
big of a party.

523
00:44:52,839 --> 00:44:53,839
Exactly.

524
00:44:53,839 --> 00:44:56,839
Really wants you to come out and party with us.

525
00:44:56,839 --> 00:44:58,839
Yeah, sure, of course. Who doesn't want the party to be bigger?

526
00:44:58,839 --> 00:45:01,839
Yeah, so let's talk about the other parties.

527
00:45:01,839 --> 00:45:06,839
So what do you think about the – let's go with the extreme example, the other party,

528
00:45:06,839 --> 00:45:10,839
which is like they actually want to cross the street because – and that's BSV,
right?

529
00:45:10,839 --> 00:45:14,839
They want to cross the street, and they are throwing a party.

530
00:45:14,839 --> 00:45:17,839
Yeah, they're making it weird, and they don't care who knows it.

531
00:45:17,839 --> 00:45:18,839
They're having a lot of fun.

532
00:45:18,839 --> 00:45:20,839
Of course, yeah.

533
00:45:20,839 --> 00:45:28,839
So could you see like Drivechains being experimented on on BSV?

534
00:45:28,839 --> 00:45:30,839
I think they would be more open to it actually.

535
00:45:30,839 --> 00:45:34,839
Yeah, well, sort of why, but I'm not sure really that that's the case.

536
00:45:34,839 --> 00:45:41,839
I mean one reason is that there's already a view that BSV can like do everything
again.

537
00:45:41,839 --> 00:45:48,839
So it's similar to what happened with BTC where they're just like we're right about
everything,

538
00:45:48,839 --> 00:45:51,839
and everyone else is wrong.

539
00:45:51,839 --> 00:46:00,839
And if you take that point of view in life, you will eventually collide with
something very painfully,

540
00:46:00,839 --> 00:46:02,839
but who knows when.

541
00:46:02,839 --> 00:46:08,839
But BSV has said like – so I was talking to Dan Krawitz who is an awesome guy,

542
00:46:08,839 --> 00:46:12,839
but I told him stuff like well, you know, he was like BSV can do everything.

543
00:46:12,839 --> 00:46:14,839
And I said well, what about small blocks?

544
00:46:14,839 --> 00:46:16,839
Can it do small blocks?

545
00:46:16,839 --> 00:46:17,839
And I was like oh, got you there.

546
00:46:17,839 --> 00:46:20,839
And he's like well, we don't want those people.

547
00:46:20,839 --> 00:46:24,839
Those people are the worst, and we don't like them.

548
00:46:24,839 --> 00:46:26,839
So we don't want them in our party.

549
00:46:27,839 --> 00:46:36,839
The Drivechain thing is sort of like everyone can find a place.

550
00:46:36,839 --> 00:46:41,839
You can't just kick people out just because you don't like what they believe.

551
00:46:41,839 --> 00:46:45,839
Man, I really want the party that you're proposing to happen.

552
00:46:45,839 --> 00:46:46,839
Gosh.

553
00:46:46,839 --> 00:46:47,839
Yeah, I know.

554
00:46:47,839 --> 00:46:49,839
Yeah, me too.

555
00:46:49,839 --> 00:46:54,839
Well, I mean, again, part of it though has been there hasn't – well, we've still
been working on it the whole time.

556
00:46:54,839 --> 00:46:55,839
So I don't like to bother people.

557
00:46:55,839 --> 00:46:58,839
There's so much vaporware in the space.

558
00:46:58,839 --> 00:47:00,839
Isn't it just horrible?

559
00:47:00,839 --> 00:47:01,839
Horrible.

560
00:47:01,839 --> 00:47:02,839
Horrible, yeah.

561
00:47:02,839 --> 00:47:06,839
So it's like I'm not going to bother people until we have this software release.

562
00:47:06,839 --> 00:47:09,839
So now we have some, but again, it's not perfect.

563
00:47:09,839 --> 00:47:14,839
And then when you have one, obviously we're working on the next one.

564
00:47:14,839 --> 00:47:19,839
So I'm always ashamed of the current release because we're working on these new
things.

565
00:47:19,839 --> 00:47:22,839
So I never want to like say oh, download this because it's like –

566
00:47:23,839 --> 00:47:25,839
Paul, perfection is the enemy of good.

567
00:47:25,839 --> 00:47:26,839
I know.

568
00:47:26,839 --> 00:47:34,839
I mean, look, and like Ford said, if it were up to the engineers at the Ford
company, cars would never leave the assembly line.

569
00:47:34,839 --> 00:47:35,839
Yeah.

570
00:47:35,839 --> 00:47:41,839
You're not – you had the opportunity to scam people with an ICO.

571
00:47:41,839 --> 00:47:47,839
And you're one of the guys that actually had an actual claim to –

572
00:47:47,839 --> 00:47:48,839
I know.

573
00:47:48,839 --> 00:47:49,839
It was like a finished thing.

574
00:47:49,839 --> 00:47:51,839
You actually could have done that.

575
00:47:51,839 --> 00:47:52,839
Isn't that crazy?

576
00:47:52,839 --> 00:47:54,839
It is pretty crazy.

577
00:47:54,839 --> 00:47:55,839
Oh, and guess what?

578
00:47:55,839 --> 00:47:58,839
Augur now classifies itself as DeFi.

579
00:47:58,839 --> 00:48:01,839
So now Augur is taking the whole DeFi –

580
00:48:01,839 --> 00:48:02,839
Of course.

581
00:48:02,839 --> 00:48:03,839
Yeah.

582
00:48:03,839 --> 00:48:09,839
I mean there's an irony though, which is that Augur did their crowd sale.

583
00:48:09,839 --> 00:48:15,839
Well, they only got like – they got something like $3 or $4 million, a lot of which
I think was just like recycled.

584
00:48:15,839 --> 00:48:20,839
Like they had the ringers pay themselves through the crowd sale.

585
00:48:20,839 --> 00:48:24,839
Who knows if that's the case or not, but that's how people were doing it back when
it started.

586
00:48:24,839 --> 00:48:32,839
They didn't actually get a lot of money, and actually it was so long ago that it's
not really –

587
00:48:32,839 --> 00:48:41,839
if you see how much BTC, if you price it in BTC or ETH, it actually hasn't actually
gained in value I think.

588
00:48:41,839 --> 00:48:47,839
It depends a lot on whether or not you use BTC or ETH or how you combine the two
based on the ratio of the crowd sale.

589
00:48:47,839 --> 00:48:54,839
But the point is anyone who just had BTC or ETH has done very well, but that
obviously includes me.

590
00:48:54,839 --> 00:49:02,839
So it hasn't really – what I'm trying to say is actually I wouldn't have profited by
even doing the ICO,

591
00:49:02,839 --> 00:49:11,839
because the money – or what I should say is the ICO wouldn't have added any value to
anyone.

592
00:49:11,839 --> 00:49:15,839
I could have just taken all this money and just left, and then that would have been
like –

593
00:49:15,839 --> 00:49:16,839
That would have been the end of you.

594
00:49:16,839 --> 00:49:20,839
Millions of dollars of profit, however you want to call that.

595
00:49:20,839 --> 00:49:26,839
But the projects have not actually achieved a return commensurate with the risk,

596
00:49:26,839 --> 00:49:34,839
especially when asking people to donate their Bitcoin, the precious Bitcoin which
was about to go up,

597
00:49:34,839 --> 00:49:36,839
because that was a long time ago.

598
00:49:36,839 --> 00:49:38,839
But yeah, I could have done a lot of things like that.

599
00:49:38,839 --> 00:49:40,839
I still probably could. Who knows?

600
00:49:41,839 --> 00:49:45,839
But that's not really the point of the project.

601
00:49:45,839 --> 00:49:56,839
If you watch – I know you were there at Anarchapulco 2018 when I gave the talk on
Futarki and Hivemind,

602
00:49:56,839 --> 00:49:58,839
which is on the Bitcoin Hivemind site.

603
00:49:59,325 --> 00:50:06,325
On the front page. So that's really what got me into all of this in the first place,
and so doing an ICO would not have helped at all.

604
00:50:07,325 --> 00:50:14,325
The ICO is actually extremely detrimental, in my opinion, to progress, actually,
because people get a big distraction.

605
00:50:15,325 --> 00:50:22,325
They have all the money, and then you attract really the wrong kind of people, and
then there's a lot of pressure to just rush something out.

606
00:50:23,325 --> 00:50:29,325
Whereas we have been taking our time. I certainly think you're right that I'm a
little bit too much of a perfectionist.

607
00:50:30,325 --> 00:50:39,325
But what I would say is that I am just interested in working on the idea, so that's
an opportunity for you in the audience.

608
00:50:40,325 --> 00:50:47,325
You can say, I'm not opposed to people borrowing the ideas. It's all open source
code.

609
00:50:48,325 --> 00:50:55,325
You can kind of keep an eye on it and just say, you can do your own thing.

610
00:50:56,325 --> 00:51:01,325
You can shoot me a message and see if you want to be the – because there are
definitely different types of people, right?

611
00:51:01,325 --> 00:51:06,325
There's like the CEO type of person who is doing this. They're on this mission 24-7.

612
00:51:07,325 --> 00:51:10,325
They get up in the morning. They make like a to-do list. They do this sort of thing.

613
00:51:11,325 --> 00:51:15,325
Then there's people who are more like me and Dan Krawitz where we're like reading
Lord of the Rings for some reason.

614
00:51:16,325 --> 00:51:18,325
Our subconscious told us to, and we don't know why.

615
00:51:19,325 --> 00:51:25,325
Somewhere in there is lurking a great idea that has blockchain ID somehow, and we've
got our weird papers around.

616
00:51:26,325 --> 00:51:32,325
And we're just like, and then we stay up until 5 a.m. writing a little piece of
code, and then we just give up on it.

617
00:51:33,325 --> 00:51:39,325
We're doing weird stuff, talking to people on podcasts, which is not productive.

618
00:51:40,325 --> 00:51:43,325
So there are very different people, and I'm definitely more of the academic.

619
00:51:44,325 --> 00:51:52,325
In academia, it's considered extremely normal for a project to be delayed by two or
four years. It's very normal.

620
00:51:52,325 --> 00:51:55,325
A CEO would never. It couldn't be delayed like a single day basically.

621
00:51:56,325 --> 00:52:02,325
But in academia, if you're working on this paper, and you don't bother people until
it's perfect,

622
00:52:03,325 --> 00:52:07,325
and it never gets published until it's gone through all this peer review, and a lot
of that peer review is even before peer review.

623
00:52:08,325 --> 00:52:13,325
You send it around. You get memos from people. You get comments. You travel to
conferences.

624
00:52:14,325 --> 00:52:17,325
So it takes a very long time, and it's just supposed to be perfect.

625
00:52:17,325 --> 00:52:23,325
There's not supposed to be any errors, and that is a case of just perfect is slow.

626
00:52:24,325 --> 00:52:29,325
So that's kind of a little bit more of my personality. I'm not completely, but I'm
mostly that type of person.

627
00:52:30,325 --> 00:52:33,325
So really quick, if you could give everyone just a quick background.

628
00:52:34,325 --> 00:52:39,325
I didn't think it was necessary at the beginning of this because I'm a champion of
proof of work, and your work proves itself.

629
00:52:40,325 --> 00:52:45,325
So if you can give them a little bit of your academic background so that they
understand where you're coming from with all this.

630
00:52:45,325 --> 00:52:53,325
Yeah, well, I have undergraduate degrees in economics and psychology, and then I
have a master's degree.

631
00:52:54,325 --> 00:53:03,325
I have an MBA in finance, concentrated in finance, and have a master's of science in
a branch of math called operations research.

632
00:53:04,325 --> 00:53:09,325
And then I worked at the Yale University Department of Economics for two and a half
years.

633
00:53:09,325 --> 00:53:22,325
The guy I worked for, William Nordhaus, won the Nobel Prize in 2018, and he became
president of the AEA while I was working for him, which is almost even – it's a
pretty big honor as well.

634
00:53:23,325 --> 00:53:28,325
In the econ community, it's a big deal. To the layperson, obviously, the Nobel Prize
is a big deal.

635
00:53:29,325 --> 00:53:40,325
But yeah, so I did that, and while I was there, I was sort of working on Bitcoin and
Truthcoin, what became Bitcoin Hivemind, the prediction markets project.

636
00:53:41,325 --> 00:53:47,325
So then after that, I started working on Bitcoin crypto full time.

637
00:53:48,325 --> 00:53:54,325
Okay, so now I'm going to ask you a question that I have no other choice but to ask.

638
00:53:54,325 --> 00:54:16,325
And given that we've seen this power struggle within Bitcoin's history, and the fact
that you're trying to mediate this power struggle for control, my question is, is
Bitcoin Byzantine fault tolerant?

639
00:54:17,325 --> 00:54:26,325
Well, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think there is a – Byzantine fault
tolerant, I think the answer would be yes.

640
00:54:27,325 --> 00:54:34,325
But all this is pitched from an ancient game theory question, where there are these
two generals on a hill, and they're trying to send messages to each other.

641
00:54:35,325 --> 00:54:44,325
Bitcoin is actually pretty different from – people are really, really interested in
this Byzantine generals problem ever since Bitcoin came around.

642
00:54:44,325 --> 00:54:46,325
Let me follow up with one more question.

643
00:54:47,325 --> 00:54:48,325
Okay, sure.

644
00:54:49,325 --> 00:55:01,325
One more question. Doesn't it mean then that anyone that wants to control the
Bitcoin protocol is an ipso facto malicious actor? A Byzantine general that wants to
take over?

645
00:55:02,325 --> 00:55:13,325
Yeah, I would say it depends on what they can do if they take over. But yeah, I
would certainly say that – well, I would say that Bitcoin arose to solve a certain
problem.

646
00:55:14,325 --> 00:55:24,325
The problem was Liberty Reserve, Eagle, etc. being closed down. So they were like,
okay, we'll make it so it's really, really hard to close down, because if you just
close down some nodes, more nodes start up.

647
00:55:24,325 --> 00:55:33,325
And even if you close down almost all of them, now as long as one node survives, and
people would make sure that it did, they can regenerate the entire network.

648
00:55:34,325 --> 00:55:43,325
Now the question is if you do that, how do you know that person is being honest
about who owns what coins?

649
00:55:44,325 --> 00:55:51,325
And then that's the hash linked list idea, and then how do you know that people
won't tamper with that? That's the proof of work idea.

650
00:55:52,325 --> 00:56:09,325
So right now the goal for Drivechains is to have a contest, a market driven contest
over protocol development.

651
00:56:10,325 --> 00:56:23,325
Well, okay, so that's interesting. I mean, there's a theory. The way Drivechain is
set up is theoretically it should be the case that as long as the sidechain is
adding value to Bitcoin, it should be secure.

652
00:56:24,325 --> 00:56:28,325
So if the sidechain is popular, it should be secure. So that's kind of this risk
that it won't be.

653
00:56:28,325 --> 00:56:43,325
But I think that just means, the way I look at that is that the sidechains are like
entrepreneurs. They have creators who want them to succeed, and if they do, then the
creators get prestige, same as any other open source software.

654
00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:55,325
And they may get money, and they probably would just eventually by way of being well
regarded and getting grants and things, but who knows.

655
00:56:56,325 --> 00:57:03,325
It could go however they like. They could do something like Amory is doing with
their sidechain and say that they're going to collect some amount of the economic
activity over there.

656
00:57:03,325 --> 00:57:12,325
The whole point is they can do whatever they like, and if they succeed, then the
project succeeds, and then if they fail, it fails.

657
00:57:13,325 --> 00:57:20,325
But the threat of failure is exactly what enforces quality control.

658
00:57:21,325 --> 00:57:28,325
So I would imagine that there wouldn't be very many sidechains because people would
be afraid. They wouldn't succeed unless they were really needed.

659
00:57:28,325 --> 00:57:33,325
So you have BTC, and then you would have something like a large block sidechain
because there's a lot of people who wanted that.

660
00:57:34,325 --> 00:57:37,325
You'd probably have like a privacy sidechain because there's a lot of people who
wanted that.

661
00:57:38,325 --> 00:57:50,325
But if people make a sidechain that's sort of frivolous, probably it wouldn't do
well, and it would probably have the security slowly unwind and possibly collapse.

662
00:57:51,325 --> 00:57:57,325
And so in that sense, it's kind of market driven. It's a lot like an entrepreneur.
You need users.

663
00:57:58,325 --> 00:58:03,325
You need blood pumping through this system in order for it to be alive.

664
00:58:04,325 --> 00:58:13,325
Otherwise, it's a kind of niche chain, right? It sort of says, if this isn't good
enough, then destroy it and make room for something new.

665
00:58:14,325 --> 00:58:18,325
So what are you going to do, Paul? What are you going to do with, I mean, you,
pardon me.

666
00:58:18,325 --> 00:58:23,325
We're focused on finishing it, as I said. So I want to finish it first.

667
00:58:24,325 --> 00:58:32,325
And then, obviously, I will reopen the conversation with BTC.

668
00:58:33,325 --> 00:58:40,325
Although a lot of people in BTC, as I've mentioned, I've talked to a lot of these
people many times over the years and ever.

669
00:58:41,325 --> 00:58:46,325
And a lot of them think the idea is too experimental. So I don't know exactly what
will happen then.

670
00:58:46,325 --> 00:58:54,325
But I would like to finish it first because a lot of the conversation is dragged
down by misunderstanding of what it does.

671
00:58:55,325 --> 00:59:03,325
And if the software exists and it has a GUI and you can see what happens, a lot of
those misunderstandings would be impossible.

672
00:59:04,325 --> 00:59:08,325
But it's like with Bitcoin. I didn't really understand how Bitcoin worked at all
until I used it.

673
00:59:09,325 --> 00:59:12,325
I think a lot of people have that point of view. I had no idea what was going on.

674
00:59:12,325 --> 00:59:17,325
When I first used Bitcoin, I thought it was like BitTorrent or something. It is like
BitTorrent.

675
00:59:18,325 --> 00:59:24,325
But I thought you had to like leave this window open to get the six required
confirmations.

676
00:59:25,325 --> 00:59:28,325
And so I left it open until I had six confirmations for my transaction.

677
00:59:29,325 --> 00:59:32,325
And then I closed the window and then I like went to sleep or whatever.

678
00:59:33,325 --> 00:59:37,325
And I opened it the next day and it has like, you know, whatever, 150 confirmations
or something.

679
00:59:38,325 --> 00:59:39,325
And you're like, what the heck? How did I get all these confirmations?

680
00:59:39,325 --> 00:59:45,325
So I knew nothing about how it worked, even though I had researched it a lot, even
before installing it on my computer.

681
00:59:46,325 --> 00:59:50,325
It's not until you really use something that you actually understand anything about
it.

682
00:59:51,325 --> 00:59:55,325
So that's what I wanted to focus on is finishing it first.

683
00:59:56,325 --> 01:00:01,325
I think it has extremely interesting and bizarre implications for like BSV and BCH.

684
01:00:02,325 --> 01:00:08,325
Like if BTC adopted this and there was a BCH sidechain, like wouldn't that be like
the worst thing?

685
01:00:09,325 --> 01:00:11,325
Like one of the worst things that could possibly happen to BCH.

686
01:00:12,325 --> 01:00:15,325
Like I would think, I would guess so, but I don't know.

687
01:00:16,325 --> 01:00:19,325
It seems as though BTC isn't interested in even doing that.

688
01:00:20,325 --> 01:00:22,325
But I don't know to what extent people are.

689
01:00:23,325 --> 01:00:33,325
Wouldn't you say that would be more likely for, I think it would be more likely for
Drivechains to be adopted by Bitcoin SV, by BSV.

690
01:00:34,325 --> 01:00:38,325
And for something, I don't know. It just seems to me like they gravitate towards it.

691
01:00:39,325 --> 01:00:44,325
Well, BSV likes when people do stuff on top of the protocol.

692
01:00:45,325 --> 01:00:47,325
This is a software, this is a protocol change.

693
01:00:48,325 --> 01:00:54,325
You could probably sort of massage it into a different form or something like that.

694
01:00:55,325 --> 01:00:56,325
But you know, I don't know.

695
01:00:57,325 --> 01:01:08,325
BSV has weird, its own weird hangups on sidechains because of, first of all because
of Blockstream using the sidechain's word to describe the liquid multi-signature
wallet.

696
01:01:09,325 --> 01:01:14,325
So they're misdescribing, they're kind of like taking over the sidechain word to
some extent.

697
01:01:15,325 --> 01:01:20,325
No, no, no. I say we reclaim it because that is not a sidechain.

698
01:01:21,325 --> 01:01:25,325
That is, I call liquid a multi-signature wallet. That's what I call it.

699
01:01:26,325 --> 01:01:27,325
That is right. Yeah, well me too.

700
01:01:28,325 --> 01:01:31,325
So we have that problem.

701
01:01:32,325 --> 01:01:37,325
But then we also have like, you know, Craig S. Wright has made all these comments
about sidechains like divide the hash power and stuff.

702
01:01:37,325 --> 01:01:41,325
I don't even know what he's talking about and none of that's true of Drivechain at
all.

703
01:01:42,325 --> 01:01:46,325
But there have been, all I'm saying is I'm not sure that that's, you may be right or
you may be wrong.

704
01:01:47,325 --> 01:01:51,325
I don't know what BSV would want to use Drivechain for if it already has an
unlimited block size.

705
01:01:52,325 --> 01:01:58,325
It would instead want to use it for stuff like Zcash type stuff or like Namecoin
type stuff.

706
01:01:59,325 --> 01:02:05,325
It would then not really, because you wouldn't, no one on BSV would want to make
like a small block sidechain.

707
01:02:05,325 --> 01:02:06,325
Yeah, that wouldn't make sense.

708
01:02:07,325 --> 01:02:08,325
That wouldn't make any sense.

709
01:02:09,325 --> 01:02:18,325
So the better thing is to have the small block mainchain and then have progressively
larger blocks on the higher level Drivechain scheme.

710
01:02:19,325 --> 01:02:24,325
Or have lots of big block sidechains on one small block mainchain.

711
01:02:25,325 --> 01:02:27,325
So that makes a little more sense, but I don't know.

712
01:02:28,325 --> 01:02:30,325
What about Bitcoin Cash?

713
01:02:31,325 --> 01:02:35,325
There's a lot of Bitcoin cashers that really like Drivechains as well.

714
01:02:36,325 --> 01:02:37,325
Yeah, well they could.

715
01:02:38,325 --> 01:02:39,325
That's a party that's happening next door.

716
01:02:40,325 --> 01:02:41,325
It is.

717
01:02:42,325 --> 01:02:43,325
I mean they could use you right now.

718
01:02:44,325 --> 01:02:45,325
I know, yeah.

719
01:02:46,325 --> 01:02:51,325
Well one thing that's funny, the one thing that Drivechain I don't think helps with
is if you want one,

720
01:02:52,325 --> 01:03:00,325
you wouldn't have like, you have like the mainchain which pays 0% to Omnistash and
then the sidechain pays 8% to Omnistash.

721
01:03:01,325 --> 01:03:05,325
I don't know if that would help resolve that particular dispute over what the
blockchain's rules should be,

722
01:03:06,325 --> 01:03:09,325
which is kind of ironic because in a way that proves just how silly the whole thing
is.

723
01:03:10,325 --> 01:03:12,325
But yeah, I don't know.

724
01:03:13,325 --> 01:03:14,325
It's open source.

725
01:03:15,325 --> 01:03:17,325
I'd be happy if anyone stole it.

726
01:03:18,325 --> 01:03:22,325
A lot of the stuff that we do is just managing the databases and the GUI.

727
01:03:23,325 --> 01:03:26,325
A lot of the stuff we do is on the sidechain template, most of the work.

728
01:03:27,325 --> 01:03:31,325
That sidechain template, that's the same no matter what Drivechain is on.

729
01:03:32,325 --> 01:03:33,325
You know what I mean?

730
01:03:34,325 --> 01:03:37,325
All those sidechains could be the same software even though they'd be different
networks.

731
01:03:38,325 --> 01:03:39,325
Do you understand what I'm saying?

732
01:03:40,325 --> 01:03:43,325
If someone forks the sidechain template to make Zcash the Drivechain,

733
01:03:44,325 --> 01:03:48,325
then someone could take that software and they could put it on the BTC Drivechain
world

734
01:03:49,325 --> 01:03:53,325
and then if there's BSV Drivechain also, they can use the exact same software, it
would be a different network.

735
01:03:54,325 --> 01:03:55,325
That's so cool.

736
01:03:56,325 --> 01:03:59,325
Most of our work is completely reusable with that modular piece over there.

737
01:04:00,325 --> 01:04:06,325
As for the changes to the mainchain, on Bitcoin this is BIP300/301.

738
01:04:07,325 --> 01:04:10,325
Those are the sidechains, that's Drivechain and Blind Merged Mining.

739
01:04:11,325 --> 01:04:15,325
You'd have to remake those changes on BCH and BSV.

740
01:04:16,325 --> 01:04:18,325
It's all open source, so anyone could do it.

741
01:04:19,325 --> 01:04:23,325
But there have been a lot of extremely frivolous changes.

742
01:04:24,325 --> 01:04:25,325
BCH is much more different.

743
01:04:25,325 --> 01:04:32,325
BSV is closer to what BTC is right now, the code, than BCH is.

744
01:04:33,325 --> 01:04:35,325
I'm not exactly sure why.

745
01:04:36,325 --> 01:04:40,325
There's obviously a lot of guesses like BSV deleted a lot of crazy stuff that BCH
did.

746
01:04:41,325 --> 01:04:44,325
But for whatever reason, BSV is a lot closer.

747
01:04:45,325 --> 01:04:50,325
There's been a lot of pointless style changes in BCH.

748
01:04:50,325 --> 01:04:55,325
Stuff has moved down to different lines, different formatting.

749
01:04:56,325 --> 01:05:04,325
Those types of things just make it very difficult for BCH to copy stuff that is
invented for BTC for no reason.

750
01:05:05,325 --> 01:05:06,325
Instead, it could be a lot easier.

751
01:05:07,325 --> 01:05:09,325
But that being said, it is all open source.

752
01:05:10,325 --> 01:05:12,325
It would be a lot of work.

753
01:05:13,325 --> 01:05:17,325
I don't know how much work it would be, but the point is it wouldn't be zero amount
of work.

754
01:05:17,325 --> 01:05:19,325
So then I'd have to decide if I want to do it personally.

755
01:05:20,325 --> 01:05:21,325
But it is open source.

756
01:05:22,325 --> 01:05:23,325
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

757
01:05:24,325 --> 01:05:25,325
Yeah, of course.

758
01:05:26,325 --> 01:05:30,325
If I were to port it, 300 and 301 would have to be ported from BTC to BCH.

759
01:05:31,325 --> 01:05:32,325
That would take some amount of work.

760
01:05:33,325 --> 01:05:34,325
I don't know if I should do it.

761
01:05:35,325 --> 01:05:42,325
Obviously, I'd be happy to, and I'm sure Patrick Kryptax would also be happy to talk
to someone who's doing that.

762
01:05:43,325 --> 01:05:44,325
We may at some point do it.

763
01:05:45,325 --> 01:05:46,325
I don't know.

764
01:05:47,325 --> 01:05:48,325
That would be what they'd have to do.

765
01:05:49,325 --> 01:05:52,325
Well, who knows what's going to happen with Bitcoin Cash now.

766
01:05:53,325 --> 01:05:54,325
Right, exactly.

767
01:05:55,325 --> 01:05:56,325
Unfortunately, they're a little distracted at the moment, right?

768
01:05:57,325 --> 01:05:58,325
Yeah.

769
01:05:59,325 --> 01:06:00,325
I mean, you are really the...

770
01:06:01,325 --> 01:06:04,325
I see Drivechains as the real hope for BTC.

771
01:06:05,325 --> 01:06:07,325
I know, that's how I feel too.

772
01:06:08,325 --> 01:06:11,325
The two of us are the only ones who agree.

773
01:06:12,325 --> 01:06:13,325
I just don't understand.

774
01:06:14,325 --> 01:06:15,325
They have a manifest destiny.

775
01:06:15,325 --> 01:06:19,325
They just think that everything is going great, and it will continue to go great
forever.

776
01:06:20,325 --> 01:06:22,325
In a way, they're right though, because think about it.

777
01:06:23,325 --> 01:06:26,325
Even if they can just say that Drivechain sucks forever, and Drivechain is open
source.

778
01:06:27,325 --> 01:06:30,325
So then when they finally hit that moment where everyone has said,

779
01:06:31,325 --> 01:06:35,325
we don't need to do anything, and everything sucks, Drivechain sucks, whatever.

780
01:06:36,325 --> 01:06:39,325
They hit that moment where they're like, oh no, we really, really need this.

781
01:06:40,325 --> 01:06:43,325
They can just take it, and then they'll only have been wrong for like 24 hours.

782
01:06:43,325 --> 01:06:46,325
And then they'll be back on the path to success.

783
01:06:47,325 --> 01:06:48,325
So in a way, they're right.

784
01:06:49,325 --> 01:06:54,325
They just need to make BTC prestigious, and that will attract people to build
technology on it.

785
01:06:55,325 --> 01:07:02,325
But certainly, you eventually reach a point where the community becomes so
irrational that it cannot succeed.

786
01:07:03,325 --> 01:07:05,325
But I don't think the BTC has reached that point yet.

787
01:07:06,325 --> 01:07:07,325
But who knows?

788
01:07:08,325 --> 01:07:11,325
It's not moving in the right direction, but it's still pretty rational.

789
01:07:12,325 --> 01:07:17,325
Throughout this whole conversation, and I've seen you emphasize the community a lot,

790
01:07:18,325 --> 01:07:19,325
and the open source developers a lot.

791
01:07:20,325 --> 01:07:26,325
Whereas I personally emphasize miners, and market drivers more.

792
01:07:27,325 --> 01:07:32,325
I think that you're hoping that they will realize that,

793
01:07:33,325 --> 01:07:36,325
oh my gosh, we need to figure something else out, because this is not working.

794
01:07:37,325 --> 01:07:48,325
My hope for Drivechains is that the miners feel enough economic pressure

795
01:07:49,325 --> 01:07:55,325
to move the open source developers and the community to actually accept Drivechains.

796
01:07:56,325 --> 01:07:59,325
I always put the miner before the developers.

797
01:08:00,325 --> 01:08:01,325
Well, you can.

798
01:08:01,325 --> 01:08:13,325
I mean, it's funny that we could theoretically release a version of Drivechain that
is like a UASF,

799
01:08:14,325 --> 01:08:21,325
or a UASF that activates Drivechain on BTC, or a BIP-9 that activates Drivechain.

800
01:08:22,325 --> 01:08:27,325
I could just call, I only know two people who are miners, but they're pretty big
miners.

801
01:08:27,325 --> 01:08:30,325
So I could just message them, and I could say, okay, Drivechain is done.

802
01:08:31,325 --> 01:08:35,325
Why don't you just activate Drivechain before Schnorr, because who knows,

803
01:08:36,325 --> 01:08:41,325
or taproot Schnorr, who knows when that is going to activate, but this is now ready.

804
01:08:42,325 --> 01:08:44,325
And they could just do that, and they could just completely circumvent.

805
01:08:45,325 --> 01:08:47,325
But I highly doubt that they would do that.

806
01:08:48,325 --> 01:08:52,325
It could completely circumvent Bitcoin Core, and Vladimir, and all that other stuff.

807
01:08:52,325 --> 01:08:57,325
I highly doubt that would happen, but it's completely possible.

808
01:08:58,325 --> 01:08:59,325
That's theoretically possible.

809
01:09:00,325 --> 01:09:01,325
Nothing stops that from happening.

810
01:09:02,325 --> 01:09:03,325
Yeah, it's just, it seems like...

811
01:09:04,325 --> 01:09:05,325
That would be weird.

812
01:09:06,325 --> 01:09:07,325
It bothers me.

813
01:09:08,325 --> 01:09:17,325
It really does bother me that there's so much emphasis on politics when there
shouldn't be.

814
01:09:18,325 --> 01:09:21,325
Yeah, there should just be a market-driven contest.

815
01:09:22,325 --> 01:09:33,325
Where we all experiment, and what is most profitable is what extends the ledger
eventually.

816
01:09:34,325 --> 01:09:39,325
Yeah, well I think part of the weird problem of Drivechain is it's almost...

817
01:09:40,325 --> 01:09:43,325
It's very different, and that makes it hard to explain.

818
01:09:44,325 --> 01:09:49,325
But one of its disadvantages is that it gives the large blockers what they want.

819
01:09:49,325 --> 01:09:55,325
And so the people in the small block BTC world are like, whoa, whoa, this must be
bad somehow.

820
01:09:56,325 --> 01:10:02,325
I mean the whole point of it is that it gives people what they want without harming
the existing people.

821
01:10:03,325 --> 01:10:04,325
So that's kind of like the whole point.

822
01:10:05,325 --> 01:10:09,325
But a lot of people will just think this is a sneaky, sneaky way of getting the
block size increase in.

823
01:10:10,325 --> 01:10:18,325
Since the block size increase is evil and contaminant, we need to work extra hard to
purge Drivechain from the lands.

824
01:10:19,325 --> 01:10:24,325
So I think that is a weird kind of thing that has happened with it.

825
01:10:25,325 --> 01:10:29,325
Because it gives the large blockers what they want, it would make Roger Vier happy.

826
01:10:30,325 --> 01:10:31,325
We can't have that, you know.

827
01:10:32,325 --> 01:10:38,325
I think that's kind of a lot of people's thought process, which is funny because the
whole point is to make everyone happy.

828
01:10:39,325 --> 01:10:43,325
If you try to make everyone happy, then you have these two groups of people and they
both say, how dare you side with them.

829
01:10:44,325 --> 01:10:47,325
And they just throw up their hands and they both walk out on you basically.

830
01:10:47,325 --> 01:10:48,325
That's the challenge.

831
01:10:49,325 --> 01:10:50,325
Wow.

832
01:10:51,325 --> 01:10:52,325
So, okay.

833
01:10:53,325 --> 01:11:02,325
So I assume you're keeping it close to the chest as to how you're actually going to
implement or try to implement Drivechains on BTC, correct?

834
01:11:03,325 --> 01:11:04,325
Or do you have an open plan?

835
01:11:05,325 --> 01:11:06,325
I don't know about that.

836
01:11:07,325 --> 01:11:11,325
I mean I have a lot of random ideas that would be kind of dangerous and sort of fun
maybe.

837
01:11:11,325 --> 01:11:15,325
But basically the main plan is pretty transparent.

838
01:11:16,325 --> 01:11:18,325
As I just said, we're still just focused on finishing it.

839
01:11:19,325 --> 01:11:33,325
And then I guess the next move is to reopen the conversation and say look, will you
actually just try to use it before commenting on how it works or whatever.

840
01:11:34,325 --> 01:11:35,325
Because here it is.

841
01:11:36,325 --> 01:11:37,325
You can look at it.

842
01:11:37,325 --> 01:11:51,325
And I would like to have some kind of thumbs up, thumbs down from the BTC community
before figuring out what to do next.

843
01:11:52,325 --> 01:11:53,325
Because I have thought about it.

844
01:11:54,325 --> 01:11:55,325
If they get the thumbs up, then it's a thumbs up.

845
01:11:56,325 --> 01:12:00,325
But if it's a thumbs down, then it will depend on why it was a thumbs down.

846
01:12:01,325 --> 01:12:11,325
If it's a thumbs down for the absolute dumbest reasons possible, which is some of
what has happened in the past, then I might do this or that.

847
01:12:12,325 --> 01:12:14,325
Is there a date in mind?

848
01:12:15,325 --> 01:12:18,325
Is there a long term you're done with it?

849
01:12:19,325 --> 01:12:20,325
I wish everyone would like to know.

850
01:12:21,325 --> 01:12:22,325
I would like to know myself personally.

851
01:12:23,325 --> 01:12:24,325
I would say this though.

852
01:12:25,325 --> 01:12:32,325
I think the sidechain template is on its very last version right now.

853
01:12:33,325 --> 01:12:38,325
So when that version is out, it should be finished, which is a crazy thing to even
say.

854
01:12:39,325 --> 01:12:40,325
So it would be finished, finished.

855
01:12:40,325 --> 01:12:49,325
And the BIP300-301 mainchain, that needs at least one more version of work.

856
01:12:50,325 --> 01:12:51,325
And then that will be done.

857
01:12:52,325 --> 01:13:05,325
So I think probably you could say that, I don't know if I'm cursing myself here, but
probably by before November 1st, the whole Drivechain would be finished.

858
01:13:05,325 --> 01:13:12,325
And at that point, I would probably edit the BIP300-301 to make sure that both are
perfectly accurate.

859
01:13:13,325 --> 01:13:16,325
And so that would be that.

860
01:13:17,325 --> 01:13:18,325
And then it would be done.

861
01:13:19,325 --> 01:13:28,325
And then I would have emailed, probably have sent some kind of email to BitDevs and
maybe talked to some people I know, like in person or over the phone.

862
01:13:29,325 --> 01:13:32,325
No, you're not cursing yourself at all.

863
01:13:33,325 --> 01:13:34,325
We're giving you the vigilante blessing.

864
01:13:35,325 --> 01:13:36,325
Yeah, okay.

865
01:13:37,325 --> 01:13:39,325
To your point though, which is very interesting, which is about timing.

866
01:13:40,325 --> 01:13:41,325
Who the heck knows?

867
01:13:42,325 --> 01:13:43,325
Because look how long it took.

868
01:13:44,325 --> 01:13:47,325
SegWit was October 2016 was when the software was released.

869
01:13:48,325 --> 01:13:51,325
Then it wasn't activated until August 2017.

870
01:13:52,325 --> 01:13:55,325
And since then, there's been no SoftFork upgrade.

871
01:13:56,325 --> 01:14:01,325
And now the one that has been finished, Taproot.

872
01:14:02,325 --> 01:14:06,325
I forget the exact month now because COVID is like one long day, right?

873
01:14:07,325 --> 01:14:09,325
It's just like this one weird day that just goes on forever.

874
01:14:10,325 --> 01:14:12,325
I don't remember when, but at some point they finished it this year.

875
01:14:13,325 --> 01:14:15,325
And still, there's just this long conversation.

876
01:14:16,325 --> 01:14:20,325
Even the conversation about how to begin activating it is still ongoing.

877
01:14:21,325 --> 01:14:23,325
Some people think it could take years to even activate.

878
01:14:23,325 --> 01:14:27,325
And then Drivechain would have to be, you would think it must be after that.

879
01:14:28,325 --> 01:14:36,325
So one interesting question is, is BTC even able to do SoftFork upgrades anymore?

880
01:14:37,325 --> 01:14:40,325
Like what evidence is there that they can?

881
01:14:41,325 --> 01:14:43,325
We haven't done one since October 2017.

882
01:14:44,325 --> 01:14:47,325
Excuse me, October 2016, the software was released and then activated in 2017.

883
01:14:48,325 --> 01:14:49,325
That was a long time ago.

884
01:14:49,325 --> 01:14:56,325
And even then, there was a long time between SegWit and the ones that were December
2015 or something.

885
01:14:57,325 --> 01:15:00,325
So there used to be these SoftFork protocol upgrades like all the time.

886
01:15:01,501 --> 01:15:02,501
But that hasn't been in the last four years.

887
01:15:03,501 --> 01:15:09,501
Okay, so let's talk about, really quick, I just want to get your take on the
Lightning Network.

888
01:15:12,501 --> 01:15:16,501
What do you see happening? What's going on? What do you expect?

889
01:15:18,501 --> 01:15:25,501
Well, I think the Lightning Network is a really good idea. It's been totally
overhyped to the point where

890
01:15:25,501 --> 01:15:29,501
it's not healthy for any of the people working on Lightning.

891
01:15:30,501 --> 01:15:36,501
Because now they have these giant expectations hung over them, some of which are
unmeetable criteria.

892
01:15:37,501 --> 01:15:44,501
I call it an innovation funnel. Everything goes, the future of Bitcoin rests on
Lightning working.

893
01:15:45,501 --> 01:15:46,501
And that's just too much pressure.

894
01:15:47,501 --> 01:15:53,501
The joke I make is that it's like a messiah type thing, the saviour. Lightning is
the saviour, it will fix everything.

895
01:15:53,501 --> 01:15:57,501
So Lightning is a great idea. There's been huge, immense progress.

896
01:15:58,501 --> 01:16:04,501
A lot of stuff that I thought would be a big problem in the past has been totally
fixed in a completely different way.

897
01:16:05,501 --> 01:16:06,501
A lot of stuff is good.

898
01:16:07,501 --> 01:16:14,501
There are some fundamental issues with the Lightning Network that, by design, mean
it can't do everything.

899
01:16:15,501 --> 01:16:21,501
One is that you need at least one Layer 1 transaction to onboard people to the
Lightning Network.

900
01:16:21,501 --> 01:16:27,501
And in practice, you probably need many more than one, but you need at least one.
There's no getting around it.

901
01:16:28,501 --> 01:16:31,501
And that means that Lightning doesn't really do anything for onboarding.

902
01:16:32,501 --> 01:16:35,501
Because think about it, to onboard people to Layer 1, you need a one Layer 1
transaction.

903
01:16:36,501 --> 01:16:38,501
So it's kind of the same thing. So it does not do onboarding at all.

904
01:16:39,501 --> 01:16:41,501
That's like a big scaling problem with it.

905
01:16:42,501 --> 01:16:48,501
As far as payments, Lightning is perfect when both people are online and connected
to each other face to face.

906
01:16:48,501 --> 01:16:54,501
So if you're buying something in a store, it's great, because instant, both of you
are connected.

907
01:16:55,501 --> 01:16:58,501
So that's great. You don't have to worry about confirmations at all.

908
01:16:59,501 --> 01:17:04,501
It's very bad when one of the people is asleep, because in order to receive money,

909
01:17:05,501 --> 01:17:08,501
you need to interact with them and sign a message with your private key.

910
01:17:09,501 --> 01:17:15,501
So you can't receive money unless you have a live connection to them.

911
01:17:15,501 --> 01:17:18,501
And everything's in like a hot wallet. It's very stressful.

912
01:17:19,501 --> 01:17:24,501
There's probably no way, I don't know what fees the routing people will have to
charge

913
01:17:25,501 --> 01:17:33,501
in order to generate a return on the capital it's going to take to just facilitate
liquidity.

914
01:17:34,501 --> 01:17:35,501
So Lightning has a lot of problems.

915
01:17:36,501 --> 01:17:41,501
I think it's better if it's not thought of as a scaling technology at all, which is
very different.

916
01:17:41,501 --> 01:17:49,501
My point of view is obviously very different from most people who think of it as the
layer two, the scaling technology.

917
01:17:50,501 --> 01:17:53,501
But it doesn't help with onboarding and it doesn't help with many different types of
transactions.

918
01:17:54,501 --> 01:17:58,501
So how can it, I don't, the people who originally designed it, I think,

919
01:17:59,501 --> 01:18:07,501
you know, have some regrets on culturally where it has traveled from being like this
good idea

920
01:18:08,501 --> 01:18:10,501
and something that could help a lot.

921
01:18:11,501 --> 01:18:17,501
You know, as I said, if you buy something in a store, in general, you don't want to
have to wait for confirmation.

922
01:18:18,501 --> 01:18:23,501
So probably, I mean, zero conf is pretty safe because most people aren't thieves,
first of all.

923
01:18:24,501 --> 01:18:27,501
But second of all, you buy something in a store, you know, they have security
cameras.

924
01:18:28,501 --> 01:18:31,501
They have probably, they have like the Mac address on your phone, you know.

925
01:18:31,501 --> 01:18:39,501
So if you double spent it, they would just call the police and say, this person
stole this stuff, you know.

926
01:18:40,501 --> 01:18:45,501
So zero conf already, even on BSV, BCH is probably pretty safe.

927
01:18:46,501 --> 01:18:48,501
And the whole point of the confirmations is that you vary them.

928
01:18:49,501 --> 01:18:55,501
So if the purchase is big and you don't trust the person, you wait for, screw six
confirmations,

929
01:18:56,501 --> 01:19:00,501
wait for 20 confirmations, make them wait a whole day, 144 confirmations.

930
01:19:01,501 --> 01:19:02,501
Right?

931
01:19:03,501 --> 01:19:09,501
But if it's a small purchase and you basically trust the person and your face is on
their surveillance camera,

932
01:19:10,501 --> 01:19:11,501
then zero conf is fine.

933
01:19:12,501 --> 01:19:13,501
Yeah.

934
01:19:13,501 --> 01:19:19,501
So you vary it with the, so, but Lightning, if you were worried and you wanted to
buy something quickly

935
01:19:20,501 --> 01:19:25,501
and the people are connected via the internet, then that's great because it will go
through quickly

936
01:19:25,501 --> 01:19:27,501
and it won't hit layer one.

937
01:19:28,501 --> 01:19:30,501
So you won't have to pay any layer one fees.

938
01:19:31,501 --> 01:19:34,501
So, yeah, I think, you know, Lightning has a right to exist.

939
01:19:35,501 --> 01:19:41,501
To me, it's very similar to the large block concept where the people who say that
this sucks

940
01:19:42,501 --> 01:19:44,501
and we need to destroy it are wrong.

941
01:19:45,501 --> 01:19:46,501
It's an experiment.

942
01:19:47,501 --> 01:19:48,501
We should try, we should try everything.

943
01:19:49,501 --> 01:19:51,501
Anything could have its little niche, right?

944
01:19:52,501 --> 01:19:54,501
Maybe it sucks for what you thought it would be for.

945
01:19:55,501 --> 01:20:03,501
But somewhere someone finds that it's the perfect, perfect thing for whatever,
whatever it is.

946
01:20:04,501 --> 01:20:07,501
So, Paul, do you necessarily need Drivechains, a sidechain?

947
01:20:08,501 --> 01:20:13,501
Do you necessarily need a Drivechain in order to implement Bitcoin HiveMine?

948
01:20:14,501 --> 01:20:25,501
I think so, because there needs to be a very specific type of, I'll call it a
blockchain ecosystem

949
01:20:26,501 --> 01:20:31,501
in order for the oracle that I designed in Truthcoin, which is now HiveMine,

950
01:20:32,501 --> 01:20:33,501
in order for that oracle to work.

951
01:20:34,501 --> 01:20:39,501
In other words, when, it's very easy for things to work at first, everyone.

952
01:20:40,501 --> 01:20:42,501
Everyone out there is going to say, oh yeah, Chainlink does this, whatever.

953
01:20:43,501 --> 01:20:49,501
What Truthcoin is designed for is when there's like hundreds of millions of dollars
being waged by a lot of people

954
01:20:50,501 --> 01:20:55,501
and then a lot of different other people, governments, armies, et cetera,

955
01:20:56,501 --> 01:20:59,501
really wanting to affect the outcome.

956
01:21:00,501 --> 01:21:10,501
So it's supposed to be extremely, it has to hold up under a lot of bribery and a lot
of like duress.

957
01:21:10,501 --> 01:21:14,501
So that's what it's designed to hold up under.

958
01:21:15,501 --> 01:21:26,501
And it really would prefer to live in a world where it has a monopoly on all oracle
type stuff,

959
01:21:27,501 --> 01:21:30,501
like on blockchain oracle event stuff.

960
01:21:31,501 --> 01:21:35,501
Other people can do other things, you know, move their money to an exchange,

961
01:21:35,501 --> 01:21:43,501
use a third party, a trusted third party, arbitrator or whatever.

962
01:21:44,501 --> 01:21:52,501
But if you want to do this type of thing, which is supposed to be this very stress
resistant,

963
01:21:53,501 --> 01:21:57,501
very tamper resistant, automatic peer to peer oracle,

964
01:21:58,501 --> 01:22:01,501
that thing just prefers to be the only oracle around.

965
01:22:01,501 --> 01:22:10,501
And it's just easier to do that in a world where one Bitcoin plus Drivechains is
kind of like muscled everything out.

966
01:22:11,501 --> 01:22:15,501
Everything else in the world, all the other altcoins are kind of in the background.

967
01:22:16,501 --> 01:22:26,501
And anything else that would want to do Hivemind like stuff, that should be on the
one Hivemind.

968
01:22:27,501 --> 01:22:34,501
I'm just wondering if you could just build Bitcoin Hivemind on top of BSV.

969
01:22:35,501 --> 01:22:40,501
Well, I don't know. Maybe you could. You could just launch it as its own altcoin, I
suppose.

970
01:22:43,501 --> 01:22:46,501
You still use BSV as the main unit of account.

971
01:22:47,501 --> 01:23:01,501
Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know, because it's right now just it is the existing
version just like basically is a kind of altcoin testnet fork of BTC.

972
01:23:02,501 --> 01:23:07,501
The point was always to take that and turn it into whatever Blockstream sidechains
thing that never existed.

973
01:23:08,501 --> 01:23:12,501
So now that will be fitting that into the sidechain template that we wrote.

974
01:23:12,501 --> 01:23:21,501
Once the sidechain template exists, once there's like the Hivemind Drivechain
template thing, as I mentioned,

975
01:23:22,501 --> 01:23:30,501
if that existed, then anyone who put Drivechain into their coin could then just
clone that guy and have it in.

976
01:23:31,501 --> 01:23:33,501
It'd be like plugins. It's like you write a plugin for this.

977
01:23:34,501 --> 01:23:37,501
It's like having a plugin for Google Chrome versus a plugin for Mozilla Firefox.

978
01:23:38,501 --> 01:23:40,501
It's like once the adblock plugin exists.

979
01:23:41,501 --> 01:23:50,501
But as I just tried to explain to you, it prefers to be it just prefers to live in a
world because I had when I designed all this, I kind of did.

980
01:23:51,501 --> 01:23:52,501
You know, you have to make all these tradeoffs.

981
01:23:53,501 --> 01:23:59,501
So I had it all. What I had in mind was the world where Bitcoin does all the money
things.

982
01:23:59,501 --> 01:24:06,501
And then all of the Oracle betting prediction market stuff happens in this piece of
software.

983
01:24:07,501 --> 01:24:10,501
And then all the name stuff happens in some Namecoin sidechain.

984
01:24:11,501 --> 01:24:13,501
That's kind of like how I designed it all in my head.

985
01:24:14,501 --> 01:24:21,501
So while other things work, maybe I don't know, you know, could you cut and paste
code?

986
01:24:21,501 --> 01:24:25,501
Sure. I don't know. Like, you know, maybe.

987
01:24:26,501 --> 01:24:30,501
But to put it on BSV, there would need to be you could.

988
01:24:31,501 --> 01:24:33,501
Oh, because what?

989
01:24:34,501 --> 01:24:38,501
Think about it like this, like what the software does is a lot of stuff.

990
01:24:39,501 --> 01:24:45,501
It's not just like embedding a message in the blockchain.

991
01:24:45,501 --> 01:24:55,501
It has to keep track of questions that people have asked different markets to be
able to create questions like, will Donald Trump win reelection in 2020?

992
01:24:56,501 --> 01:25:02,501
So this is a big list of those. There's like a big list of all the markets where
people are betting on all kinds of different events happening at once.

993
01:25:03,501 --> 01:25:05,501
Trump being elected, yes or no, whatever.

994
01:25:06,501 --> 01:25:08,501
Unemployment rate of the country being high or low.

995
01:25:09,501 --> 01:25:12,501
At the same time, this is big like cubes and shapes and things.

996
01:25:12,501 --> 01:25:16,501
So those are all that's another list of things.

997
01:25:17,501 --> 01:25:18,501
Then there's every trade in those markets.

998
01:25:19,501 --> 01:25:29,501
And then on top of that, there is all the stuff for the process for resolving the
all those questions in the first stage.

999
01:25:30,501 --> 01:25:36,501
Did Donald Trump actually get when later when the event is over in the real world in
December of this year?

1000
01:25:37,501 --> 01:25:38,501
Did Donald Trump actually get reelected?

1001
01:25:39,501 --> 01:25:40,501
What was this and that?

1002
01:25:41,501 --> 01:25:48,501
And keeping track of everyone's answers for that and then doing all this big
computation on them to find what it thinks is the real answers.

1003
01:25:49,501 --> 01:25:51,501
So that's a lot of steps.

1004
01:25:52,501 --> 01:25:54,501
So I wrote them all into one blockchain.

1005
01:25:55,501 --> 01:25:57,501
That's the Bitcoin Hivemind software that you can see.

1006
01:25:58,501 --> 01:26:00,501
It's theoretically like an altcoin right now.

1007
01:26:01,501 --> 01:26:07,501
I don't know how much work it would take to melt that down and put it into BSV.

1008
01:26:08,501 --> 01:26:09,501
I honestly have no idea.

1009
01:26:10,501 --> 01:26:13,501
I don't think I have a lot of other strategy to Drivechain first.

1010
01:26:14,501 --> 01:26:18,501
I asked because it seems like you're getting a lot of pushback from BTC.

1011
01:26:19,501 --> 01:26:22,501
I don't know, man.

1012
01:26:23,501 --> 01:26:32,501
It's just really upsetting that BTC has been so dogmatic in its approach to scaling.

1013
01:26:32,501 --> 01:26:41,501
I really wish they adopt what you guys are doing with Drivechains, which was what
they proposed really with Blockstream.

1014
01:26:42,501 --> 01:26:43,501
Yeah, I know. It's very funny.

1015
01:26:44,501 --> 01:26:46,501
It's frustrating.

1016
01:26:47,501 --> 01:26:51,501
And right now from a fundamental perspective, I can't say I'm bullish on BTC.

1017
01:26:52,501 --> 01:26:53,501
I can't say that.

1018
01:26:54,501 --> 01:26:55,501
I can't say that.

1019
01:26:55,501 --> 01:26:56,501
I can't say that.

1020
01:26:57,501 --> 01:27:02,501
If you're going to become money for the world, you need to be able to scale.

1021
01:27:03,501 --> 01:27:05,501
I agree with that.

1022
01:27:06,501 --> 01:27:14,501
I don't think I ever had an opportunity to mention this on the debate with Kraywitz
or when I talked to Steve Patterson yesterday.

1023
01:27:15,501 --> 01:27:18,501
But money really is scale if you think about it.

1024
01:27:18,501 --> 01:27:25,501
If you had a desert island and maybe there's only five people on the whole island.

1025
01:27:26,501 --> 01:27:31,501
And the people live there for like 200 years or something because they can live a
really long time because it's an example.

1026
01:27:32,501 --> 01:27:35,501
They would invent a lot of stuff, right?

1027
01:27:36,501 --> 01:27:37,501
They would invent someone would get a fishing net.

1028
01:27:38,501 --> 01:27:39,501
They would get a fishing pole.

1029
01:27:40,501 --> 01:27:44,501
They would probably invent some kind of running water or aqueduct or something,
right?

1030
01:27:45,501 --> 01:27:46,501
They would invent shelter.

1031
01:27:46,501 --> 01:27:47,501
They might even invent, who knows?

1032
01:27:48,501 --> 01:27:52,501
They could invent some kind of electricity or something if they had enough time with
five people.

1033
01:27:53,501 --> 01:27:57,501
But I think they would never invent money because there's only five of them.

1034
01:27:58,501 --> 01:28:02,501
So it would never even really occur to them because they all know each other.

1035
01:28:03,501 --> 01:28:04,501
So money is what you get.

1036
01:28:05,501 --> 01:28:07,501
Money is what you get when there are all these people in the world that you don't
know.

1037
01:28:08,501 --> 01:28:10,501
You don't remember what they do for you or anyone else.

1038
01:28:10,501 --> 01:28:15,501
So the whole thing, money is totally a scale problem.

1039
01:28:16,501 --> 01:28:17,501
Right.

1040
01:28:18,501 --> 01:28:19,501
Which I think is an important point.

1041
01:28:20,501 --> 01:28:27,501
And since it is the most liquid of goods, it should be the most open to growth.

1042
01:28:28,501 --> 01:28:37,501
And your Hayek approach to experimenting while not disturbing what they're doing on
the first layer.

1043
01:28:38,501 --> 01:28:39,501
I'm not the first layer.

1044
01:28:40,501 --> 01:28:41,501
I'm the main chain, right?

1045
01:28:42,501 --> 01:28:43,501
Exactly, yeah.

1046
01:28:44,501 --> 01:28:49,501
Now, obviously, there's a caveat here that I want to mention.

1047
01:28:50,501 --> 01:28:54,501
Because let's say BTC does, and maybe I shouldn't mention this.

1048
01:28:55,501 --> 01:28:56,501
I don't know, but it's worth being open.

1049
01:28:57,501 --> 01:29:00,501
Let's say BTC says, yeah, Paul, let's do this.

1050
01:29:01,501 --> 01:29:02,501
This is awesome.

1051
01:29:03,501 --> 01:29:05,501
We have our own plan for what's best for the main chain.

1052
01:29:05,501 --> 01:29:08,501
Go ahead and make as many sidechains as you want.

1053
01:29:09,501 --> 01:29:12,501
And then everyone in the world just says, oh, awesome.

1054
01:29:13,501 --> 01:29:20,501
Just copy paste all of the most productive and profitable altcoins on Bitcoin
itself.

1055
01:29:21,501 --> 01:29:23,501
And man, Bitcoin just grows, right?

1056
01:29:24,501 --> 01:29:25,501
BTC just grows exponentially.

1057
01:29:26,501 --> 01:29:32,501
And then in the process, we realize, wow, this sidechain performs better than the
main chain.

1058
01:29:33,501 --> 01:29:34,501
Maybe this should be the main chain.

1059
01:29:35,501 --> 01:29:36,501
That could happen, correct?

1060
01:29:37,501 --> 01:29:41,501
Well, actually, well, I mean, technically, in Drivechain, that cannot happen.

1061
01:29:42,501 --> 01:29:43,501
But of course, culturally, it could happen, right?

1062
01:29:44,501 --> 01:29:45,501
People could just say.

1063
01:29:46,501 --> 01:29:49,501
But the way Drivechain works is, remember, there's the main chain that is keeping
track.

1064
01:29:50,501 --> 01:29:52,501
And that's where all the coins, that's where the 21 million coins start.

1065
01:29:53,501 --> 01:29:57,501
And when they go into a sidechain, they're going into one little, like, key.

1066
01:29:58,501 --> 01:30:02,501
And they're being painted this weird script.

1067
01:30:02,501 --> 01:30:05,501
So they're going into an account on layer one.

1068
01:30:06,501 --> 01:30:10,501
So there could be these addresses on layer one that just hold, like, 10 million
coins.

1069
01:30:11,501 --> 01:30:12,501
Because that's all the coins on the sidechain.

1070
01:30:13,501 --> 01:30:19,501
So there's no way in which the sidechain can, like, suddenly then have all the 21
million coins

1071
01:30:20,501 --> 01:30:23,501
and have, like, an account where all the main chain coins were or something like
that.

1072
01:30:24,501 --> 01:30:27,501
That can never happen in a technical sense in Drivechain.

1073
01:30:27,501 --> 01:30:31,501
But of course, culturally, I mean, one thing that I try to bring up is that

1074
01:30:32,501 --> 01:30:36,501
we already live in a world with lots of different forms of money that exchange at
par,

1075
01:30:37,501 --> 01:30:40,501
a one-to-one rate, which is a lot of what the sidechain concept is about.

1076
01:30:41,501 --> 01:30:44,501
You have $10 worth of cash, you put it in the ATM,

1077
01:30:45,501 --> 01:30:47,501
you end up with $10 more in your checking account.

1078
01:30:48,501 --> 01:30:50,501
And then if you try to send money to someone else,

1079
01:30:51,501 --> 01:30:54,501
you could wire money or you could get a cashier's check.

1080
01:30:54,501 --> 01:30:58,501
And then that money would be going in a completely different system.

1081
01:30:59,501 --> 01:31:03,501
It could go through Fedwire, in which case it goes to accounts at the Federal
Reserve Bank.

1082
01:31:04,501 --> 01:31:06,501
So you have a bank at whatever, Wells Fargo in the United States.

1083
01:31:07,501 --> 01:31:10,501
But Wells Fargo has an account at the Fed.

1084
01:31:11,501 --> 01:31:12,501
And those are where all those reserves come from.

1085
01:31:13,501 --> 01:31:16,501
And then the U.S. Fed has an account at the Bank of International Settlements.

1086
01:31:17,501 --> 01:31:20,501
So there is this big hierarchy of this stuff.

1087
01:31:21,501 --> 01:31:23,501
But all of it could be measured in dollars.

1088
01:31:24,501 --> 01:31:25,501
But it's a different thing.

1089
01:31:26,501 --> 01:31:31,501
If I write I owe you, I owe someone $10 on a piece of paper,

1090
01:31:32,501 --> 01:31:34,501
they might think that's worth $10.

1091
01:31:35,501 --> 01:31:37,501
But if I have a cashier's check from Wells Fargo,

1092
01:31:38,501 --> 01:31:39,501
then a lot of people will just say, that's money.

1093
01:31:40,501 --> 01:31:42,501
And especially if I have a cashier's check from the Federal Reserve,

1094
01:31:43,501 --> 01:31:45,501
if that would even be possible, people would say,

1095
01:31:46,501 --> 01:31:48,501
well, in some sense, that's what a $10 bill is,

1096
01:31:49,501 --> 01:31:51,501
sort of a cashier's check from the Federal Reserve.

1097
01:31:52,501 --> 01:31:53,501
But everyone thinks that's money.

1098
01:31:54,501 --> 01:31:55,501
Well, I'll tell you what.

1099
01:31:56,501 --> 01:31:57,501
These things are all different.

1100
01:31:58,501 --> 01:31:59,501
I'll tell you what.

1101
01:32:00,501 --> 01:32:02,501
If BTC engages and adopts Drivechains,

1102
01:32:03,501 --> 01:32:07,501
I will be extremely bullish on BTC from a fundamental perspective.

1103
01:32:08,501 --> 01:32:09,501
Hands down, hands down.

1104
01:32:10,501 --> 01:32:11,501
You're welcome, hands down.

1105
01:32:12,501 --> 01:32:14,501
And I will be blasting it out the way I'm doing right now.

1106
01:32:15,501 --> 01:32:16,501
Because this is very valuable.

1107
01:32:17,501 --> 01:32:18,501
And it really sucks that...

1108
01:32:19,501 --> 01:32:20,501
I think it's really funny.

1109
01:32:21,501 --> 01:32:22,501
It's great for these people who are like,

1110
01:32:23,501 --> 01:32:25,501
if there are people out there who really love, you know,

1111
01:32:26,501 --> 01:32:28,501
BCH, BSV, Monero or something,

1112
01:32:29,501 --> 01:32:31,501
it's just really funny that this thing could,

1113
01:32:32,501 --> 01:32:34,501
you never know, but Drivechain could be like Armageddon

1114
01:32:35,501 --> 01:32:36,501
for the altcoin world.

1115
01:32:37,501 --> 01:32:38,501
Maybe not, but...

1116
01:32:39,501 --> 01:32:40,501
This is what we expected.

1117
01:32:41,501 --> 01:32:42,501
But it's like not...

1118
01:32:43,501 --> 01:32:44,501
And this is what's always been said, right?

1119
01:32:45,501 --> 01:32:46,501
It was always said in Bitcoin before it was BTC.

1120
01:32:47,501 --> 01:32:48,501
This was blockchain propaganda.

1121
01:32:49,501 --> 01:32:50,501
We will just copy.

1122
01:32:51,501 --> 01:32:52,501
If anyone has a good idea, we'll just copy it.

1123
01:32:53,501 --> 01:32:55,501
So that's what's so funny about this.

1124
01:32:56,501 --> 01:32:57,501
It's like, you know, but whatever.

1125
01:32:58,501 --> 01:32:59,501
I think it's still not finished.

1126
01:33:00,501 --> 01:33:01,501
So when it's finished, then I'll be showing it more.

1127
01:33:02,501 --> 01:33:03,501
It's very close to being finished.

1128
01:33:04,501 --> 01:33:05,501
So anyone can now...

1129
01:33:06,501 --> 01:33:07,501
You can download what we already have,

1130
01:33:08,501 --> 01:33:09,501
and you can check it out.

1131
01:33:10,501 --> 01:33:11,501
And so that's the best way to learn exactly what it's doing

1132
01:33:12,501 --> 01:33:13,501
and how it might not work.

1133
01:33:14,501 --> 01:33:15,501
Well, thank you for your time.

1134
01:33:16,501 --> 01:33:17,501
I really enjoyed talking to you, Paul.

1135
01:33:18,501 --> 01:33:19,501
It was incredible.

1136
01:33:20,501 --> 01:33:21,501
Yeah.

1137
01:33:22,501 --> 01:33:25,501
And if for any reason BTC does not want to take you on,

1138
01:33:26,501 --> 01:33:27,501
well, know that I'm pretty sure

1139
01:33:28,501 --> 01:33:30,501
you could maybe do something in Bitcoin Cash or BSV

1140
01:33:31,501 --> 01:33:34,501
because those parties are happening right now.

1141
01:33:35,501 --> 01:33:36,501
And those parties are happening.

1142
01:33:37,501 --> 01:33:38,501
Those parties are happening.

1143
01:33:39,501 --> 01:33:40,501
Sometimes the smaller party is more fun.

1144
01:33:41,501 --> 01:33:42,501
Yeah, yeah.

1145
01:33:43,501 --> 01:33:44,501
Every party's got to start somewhere.

1146
01:33:45,501 --> 01:33:46,501
Exactly.

1147
01:33:46,501 --> 01:33:47,501
And gosh, I just wish...

1148
01:33:48,501 --> 01:33:51,501
I wish that Blockstream would have delivered on sidechains.

1149
01:33:52,501 --> 01:33:53,501
Yeah, me too.

1150
01:33:54,501 --> 01:33:55,501
None of this, probably nothing would have happened.

1151
01:33:56,501 --> 01:33:57,501
I've tried to trace back exactly, like, where did it go wrong?

1152
01:33:58,501 --> 01:33:59,501
And I have a lot of theories about that,

1153
01:34:00,501 --> 01:34:01,501
but maybe we could talk about them some other time.

1154
01:34:02,501 --> 01:34:03,501
Like, what was the one thing, like,

1155
01:34:04,501 --> 01:34:06,501
that set all this in a weird direction?

1156
01:34:07,501 --> 01:34:08,501
Well, give us a theory.

1157
01:34:09,501 --> 01:34:10,501
Give us a couple of theories before you...

1158
01:34:11,501 --> 01:34:12,501
Well, I have one theory.

1159
01:34:13,501 --> 01:34:14,501
It's that minor centralization concept,

1160
01:34:14,501 --> 01:34:15,501
which was...

1161
01:34:16,501 --> 01:34:17,501
There was the idea of node centralization,

1162
01:34:18,501 --> 01:34:21,501
which is, I think, was ultimately defined

1163
01:34:22,501 --> 01:34:23,501
the way I defined it, which was

1164
01:34:24,501 --> 01:34:26,501
if it's more expensive to run the full node,

1165
01:34:27,501 --> 01:34:29,501
then it's harder for people to join the network.

1166
01:34:30,501 --> 01:34:32,501
And that's a good measurement of how centralized the network is.

1167
01:34:33,501 --> 01:34:35,501
And it's better if it's cheap to spin up new nodes.

1168
01:34:36,501 --> 01:34:39,501
So that was this one idea that was sort of taking shape

1169
01:34:40,501 --> 01:34:43,501
right in the 2014, 2015 years.

1170
01:34:44,501 --> 01:34:45,501
Yeah.

1171
01:34:46,501 --> 01:34:47,501
But at Blockstream, there was this other idea,

1172
01:34:48,501 --> 01:34:49,501
minor centralization,

1173
01:34:50,501 --> 01:34:51,501
which I think has no actual definition,

1174
01:34:52,501 --> 01:34:53,501
but it has some...

1175
01:34:54,501 --> 01:34:55,501
But it sort of...

1176
01:34:56,501 --> 01:34:57,501
It sort of...

1177
01:34:58,501 --> 01:34:59,501
It has...

1178
01:35:00,501 --> 01:35:01,501
They evolved a kind of wrong definition

1179
01:35:02,501 --> 01:35:03,501
that was too close to the node centralization definition,

1180
01:35:04,501 --> 01:35:05,501
where it says, like,

1181
01:35:06,501 --> 01:35:07,501
if it's too difficult for miners to join the network,

1182
01:35:07,501 --> 01:35:08,501
then that would be bad.

1183
01:35:09,501 --> 01:35:11,501
And so we have to stop that from happening at all costs.

1184
01:35:12,501 --> 01:35:14,501
The problem with that, in addition to being kind of silly,

1185
01:35:15,501 --> 01:35:17,501
given that miners have to invest, like, millions and millions of dollars

1186
01:35:18,501 --> 01:35:20,501
into equipment to even, like, do any mining these days,

1187
01:35:21,501 --> 01:35:26,501
and that they dial out to the pool operator for the block.

1188
01:35:27,501 --> 01:35:28,501
They don't even, like, run any node software.

1189
01:35:29,501 --> 01:35:32,501
They just point the hardware at a pool.

1190
01:35:33,501 --> 01:35:34,501
So it doesn't...

1191
01:35:35,501 --> 01:35:36,501
In addition to not really making any sense,

1192
01:35:37,501 --> 01:35:38,501
the other side was that

1193
01:35:39,501 --> 01:35:42,501
if anything ever required the...

1194
01:35:43,501 --> 01:35:46,501
or even suggested that the miners might want to do...

1195
01:35:47,501 --> 01:35:48,501
run more software,

1196
01:35:49,501 --> 01:35:50,501
then that would be bad.

1197
01:35:51,501 --> 01:35:52,501
And you can see how that criterion just excludes everything.

1198
01:35:53,501 --> 01:35:54,501
It excludes, like, every sidechain.

1199
01:35:55,501 --> 01:35:56,501
It says there's nothing you can do now

1200
01:35:57,501 --> 01:36:00,501
because they think if it's possible to create some sidechain,

1201
01:36:01,501 --> 01:36:05,501
someone will make, like, a big, huge ESPN 4K sidechain

1202
01:36:05,501 --> 01:36:06,501
that uses a ton of data,

1203
01:36:07,501 --> 01:36:09,501
and then miners will feel pressured into running that data,

1204
01:36:10,501 --> 01:36:11,501
and then that would be bad for miner centralization,

1205
01:36:12,501 --> 01:36:13,501
which would be bad.

1206
01:36:14,501 --> 01:36:15,501
So I think that's kind of, like, that's a line.

1207
01:36:16,501 --> 01:36:19,501
I think it's, like, section 4.3 or something point three

1208
01:36:20,501 --> 01:36:22,501
in their original Blockstream paper.

1209
01:36:23,501 --> 01:36:26,501
And I think that is the line that is backwards.

1210
01:36:27,501 --> 01:36:28,501
If you just put a negative one in front of that,

1211
01:36:29,501 --> 01:36:32,501
then they would have eventually released something.

1212
01:36:33,501 --> 01:36:34,501
But instead they had this weird belief

1213
01:36:35,501 --> 01:36:40,501
that if ever, ever could possibly be the case that...

1214
01:36:41,501 --> 01:36:44,501
Well, just the idea of defining miner centralization at all

1215
01:36:45,501 --> 01:36:47,501
was a weird idea because mining is a process,

1216
01:36:48,501 --> 01:36:49,501
so it can't really have a...

1217
01:36:50,501 --> 01:36:52,501
It's very different than Bitcoin,

1218
01:36:53,501 --> 01:36:54,501
which is a network of nodes.

1219
01:36:55,501 --> 01:36:58,501
So the whole thing was misguided from beginning to end

1220
01:36:59,501 --> 01:37:00,501
in my point of view.

1221
01:37:01,501 --> 01:37:03,501
But that's this miner centralization idea.

1222
01:37:03,501 --> 01:37:05,501
You could somehow have deleted it from everyone's mind

1223
01:37:06,501 --> 01:37:09,501
or just prevented people from thinking about it ever.

1224
01:37:10,501 --> 01:37:12,501
Or maybe if I had defined node centralization

1225
01:37:13,501 --> 01:37:16,501
more clearly earlier, then who knows.

1226
01:37:17,501 --> 01:37:18,501
But that's one thought.

1227
01:37:19,501 --> 01:37:20,501
Because as long as they had that thought

1228
01:37:21,501 --> 01:37:22,501
and they published it in that paper,

1229
01:37:23,501 --> 01:37:24,501
then you can never do anything

1230
01:37:25,501 --> 01:37:27,501
because anything could result in the miners

1231
01:37:28,501 --> 01:37:29,501
running more software.

1232
01:37:30,501 --> 01:37:32,501
So if that's bad, then everything's bad.

1233
01:37:33,501 --> 01:37:34,501
So you and Steve Patterson

1234
01:37:35,501 --> 01:37:37,501
actually went really deep into this topic,

1235
01:37:38,501 --> 01:37:41,501
which was really good to hear.

1236
01:37:42,501 --> 01:37:46,501
But yeah, I think it's ridiculous

1237
01:37:47,501 --> 01:37:50,501
to fear decentralization.

1238
01:37:51,501 --> 01:37:53,501
I think it is because it just...

1239
01:37:54,501 --> 01:37:56,501
It doesn't even have a definition, I think.

1240
01:37:57,501 --> 01:37:58,501
It doesn't even make any sense

1241
01:37:59,501 --> 01:38:00,501
because when the difficulty increases,

1242
01:38:01,501 --> 01:38:02,501
that makes it harder for people to mine as well.

1243
01:38:03,501 --> 01:38:06,501
If that was the definition or the measure,

1244
01:38:07,501 --> 01:38:11,501
then why do people cheer when the difficulty goes up?

1245
01:38:12,501 --> 01:38:13,501
The whole thing is backwards.

1246
01:38:14,501 --> 01:38:15,501
It doesn't make any sense.

1247
01:38:16,501 --> 01:38:18,501
The 51% attack is mining,

1248
01:38:19,501 --> 01:38:21,501
and so is running the network normally.

1249
01:38:22,501 --> 01:38:26,501
So there's no reason why it should be easier

1250
01:38:27,501 --> 01:38:28,501
or harder in any sense.

1251
01:38:29,501 --> 01:38:30,501
It just would get harder.

1252
01:38:30,501 --> 01:38:33,501
It would get more difficult for both

1253
01:38:34,501 --> 01:38:35,501
the defenders and attackers,

1254
01:38:36,501 --> 01:38:37,501
or it would get harder.

1255
01:38:38,501 --> 01:38:40,501
It would just get easier for both or harder for both.

1256
01:38:41,501 --> 01:38:42,501
So it doesn't have any net effect on anything.

1257
01:38:43,501 --> 01:38:44,501
So that was weird.

1258
01:38:45,501 --> 01:38:47,501
I think another problematic side change

1259
01:38:48,501 --> 01:38:49,501
was the SPV proof.

1260
01:38:50,501 --> 01:38:54,501
SPV security became a kind of chess piece politically

1261
01:38:55,501 --> 01:38:56,501
with the block size debate.

1262
01:38:57,501 --> 01:38:58,501
And so then it became necessary to say

1263
01:38:58,501 --> 01:39:00,501
that SPV was evil,

1264
01:39:01,501 --> 01:39:04,501
and anything miners doing anything was evil.

1265
01:39:05,501 --> 01:39:06,501
And that, again,

1266
01:39:07,501 --> 01:39:08,501
when you have these weird beliefs,

1267
01:39:09,501 --> 01:39:10,501
it's hard to eventually produce anything

1268
01:39:11,501 --> 01:39:12,501
when these weird beliefs are in the way.

1269
01:39:13,501 --> 01:39:14,501
Yeah, I very much,

1270
01:39:15,501 --> 01:39:17,501
I find it very,

1271
01:39:18,501 --> 01:39:20,501
I find it like a breath of fresh air

1272
01:39:21,501 --> 01:39:23,501
to see all the SPV experimentations

1273
01:39:24,501 --> 01:39:25,501
happening in BSV right now.

1274
01:39:26,501 --> 01:39:28,501
And I think it's serving as an example

1275
01:39:29,501 --> 01:39:31,501
to BTC that,

1276
01:39:32,501 --> 01:39:34,501
I mean, they're proving it with their actual work.

1277
01:39:35,501 --> 01:39:36,501
Yeah, I think it's,

1278
01:39:37,501 --> 01:39:38,501
I love, I think it's great.

1279
01:39:39,501 --> 01:39:43,501
People, someone has to support small blocks

1280
01:39:44,501 --> 01:39:45,501
to make sure that the network doesn't die.

1281
01:39:46,501 --> 01:39:49,501
But all the people who say that large blocks,

1282
01:39:50,501 --> 01:39:51,501
all the stories people have about

1283
01:39:52,501 --> 01:39:53,501
large blocks being bad

1284
01:39:53,501 --> 01:39:54,501
and they're never going to work.

1285
01:39:55,501 --> 01:39:56,501
I think a lot of those stories are silly.

1286
01:39:57,501 --> 01:39:58,501
One example is that people wrote

1287
01:39:59,501 --> 01:40:00,501
that fraud proofs could never work.

1288
01:40:01,501 --> 01:40:02,501
And I wrote,

1289
01:40:02,705 --> 01:40:21,705
a paper on truthgoing.info about how they could work and every everything that was
said about them being impossible was, was wrong, but they don't even care is the
point. It's just like a, it's a talking point at this point, they just, they needed
to be impossible. So, but instead, you should just say it's, it's incautious, you
know, they should just keep the blocks small for a caution reason. I don't know, who
knows. It's all crazy.

1290
01:40:21,705 --> 01:40:41,705
So, Paul, one last question. Aside from Bitcoin and its sibling chains, are there
any other projects in crypto that you follow?

1291
01:40:41,705 --> 01:41:06,705
That's a good question. Let me see. Well, that includes a lot of stuff. So I think
I'm most interested in, you know, the my own prediction markets thing, number one,
and then secondarily, I'm interested in Drivechain, because I've been working on it.
I like, there's a lot of stuff that I think.

1292
01:41:06,705 --> 01:41:34,705
Some things that I think I still think like stuff like Namecoin is, could be a lot
better. And it could be, I mean, by better, I mean, like, deserves a lot more
attention. And we shouldn't, we shouldn't have addresses anymore. You know, by now,
we should have gotten rid of that. I don't know why we still have them. It's because
I don't know, it's so I Namecoin I like, I like David Vorex thing.

1293
01:41:34,705 --> 01:41:50,705
See a coin or whatever is storage, like bit drive type concepts, storage type
concepts. I don't know, I like Andreas's sideshift.ai project is great. It has great
marketing. It's a fake AI.

1294
01:41:50,705 --> 01:41:58,705
Yeah, you can't tell anyone that's a fake AI. Come on, man. You're really the joke.

1295
01:41:59,705 --> 01:42:15,705
Let's see what else I like. I like the Unhashed podcast. It's pretty good. Like, I
don't know, a lot of stuff. I can't say I like Mike in space. I'm one of the few
people who still likes Mike in space. Everyone else in BTC is like, he's a witch,
you know, he's a heretic.

1296
01:42:15,705 --> 01:42:25,705
I mean, that's, that's a thing. You know, you can't be so dogmatic. You want to be
money for the world. But at the same time, you want to have a purity contest. Come
on, man.

1297
01:42:25,705 --> 01:42:37,705
That's terrible. I know. It doesn't scale either because it doesn't new people don't
think it's funny. Only the people inside think it's cool. New people think what the
heck is going on.

1298
01:42:38,705 --> 01:42:48,705
That makes a lot of sense. Actually, I never thought about it that way. And yeah,
that's it. You bring up a great point that that does not scale you. Yeah, that. Wow.

1299
01:42:48,705 --> 01:42:57,705
Most people just don't want to be treated like, you know, like garbage by insane
culture police. So they'll just be like, forget it.

1300
01:42:58,705 --> 01:43:17,705
Yeah, as an anarchist with a scientific heart, I really don't like people that
assume leadership positions. And people that don't want to be leaders, I think are
the ones that should be the ones that we pay attention to the most.

1301
01:43:17,705 --> 01:43:31,705
There's a Karl Popper criterion that just says it should be as easy as possible to
replace a bad leader. And so that's kind of where I'm at, too. As long as it's easy,
they can't misbehave. As long as it's easy to replace the bad leader, they don't
have a choice. They have to do the best thing.

1302
01:43:32,705 --> 01:43:58,705
So I think, I honestly think that how they treat you once you release Drivechains,
how they treat you and how they treat the Drivechains project will be either, it's
going to be the last chance in my mind for BTC to really like, for its culture to
really show whether they are okay to grow,

1303
01:43:59,705 --> 01:44:03,705
or if they're just gonna be, you know, stuck in their ways.

1304
01:44:04,705 --> 01:44:30,705
Yeah, I kind of agree. I mean, one thing I have to emphasize is that even if
Drivechain is the stupidest idea, and it just deletes your coins immediately, it's
completely opt-in. So they should allow it because it's like, it's, I mean, it's
obviously it's a question of like, code and, you know, is it screwing up maintenance
of the software, but basically, it doesn't do anything except the Drivechain part.

1305
01:44:30,705 --> 01:44:59,705
So even if it were the dumbest idea in the world, and all it did was eat your coins
immediately, they still don't really have any basis from denying the user the option
to do it, to try it. And I think instead of just deleting your coins immediately, it
would be like, I mean, one thing is that if you want a large block sidechain, and
you're worried about sidechain security, sidechain security is much better than SPV
security.

1306
01:44:59,705 --> 01:45:15,705
But many of the large blockers, especially at the time, still to this day, and as
you were just mentioning, BCH, BSV, a lot of the large blockers don't mind SPV mode
at all. So they already want large blocks, and they're willing to put up with SPV
mode.

1307
01:45:16,705 --> 01:45:39,705
This is just large blocks with a better security model than SPV mode. So, so why
would they want to block you guys from getting something even better and not leaving
the 21 million BTC and going to different rivalrous coin. So it doesn't make any
sense to me. It's crazy. Unfortunately, I have to go though. This has been really
great.

1308
01:45:39,705 --> 01:45:57,705
No, I have to go as well. Yes. This is awesome. Thank you so much for your time,
Paul. And yeah, let's let's thank you. Thanks for having me. Let's follow up. Yeah,
we wish you best of luck. And thank you for being with us. Have a good one. All
right. Take care. See you later.