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Where's Henry?

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of the last part you heard.

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You've been muted since I got in here.

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maybe that was a little glitch.

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was just saying that it would be great for Bitcoiners to have the option to use the

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Drivechain

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arrangement where the control the through hash rate escrow instead of

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being forced to only have the option as they do now which is the federations

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control the various sidechain pegs.

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So that was one thing I was curious about when I read that.

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Another person wrote something quite curious which was they wrote yesterday or today I

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saw someone on Twitter write that trustless sidechains are perpetual motion and I was

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like what? Come on perpetual motion.

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That's what we heard in like 2016 2017 people were saying Oh proof of stake is

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perpetual motion

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sort of like, we're back to like, you know, like hundreds of years ago with people

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talking about Newtonian physics and wondering if something is perpetual motion.

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feel like this perpetual motion smear is like a hand waving nonsense.

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If someone has a coherent criticism, they

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should make it.

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just the trustless sidechains, perpetual motion, is like the biggest hand wave.

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So I thought that was kind of funny.

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And I hope that that Drivechain critic can develop a more articulate framing

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for his view.

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Or just join the winning team.

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mean, the sooner someone gets interested in chain the better in my view because this

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idea has the truth behind it, has the science behind it.

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It's much better for Bitcoiners to be able to choose.

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It's potentially a way for like billions of dollars to accrue to Bitcoin through

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better sidechains. So this is a way for Bitcoin to win, to win the contest, what

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everybody ultimately wants, which is a valuable and successful sustainable project

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Bitcoin.

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And then another,

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the third of my various grievances is that the third argument I heard lately, I read

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online, someone was like, with a federation, can sue, you can use the legal system, can

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sue the people who were the signers of the federation.

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Whereas with Drivechain, you've got all these anonymous miners out there, how can you

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sue them? This is an argument straight from BSV, the idea that the blockchain

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should be understood as the subject of the state of the legal

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system, even though Satoshi explicitly wrote, it's not about recourse, all prevention.

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He wanted a purely volatile

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voluntarist, emergent economic design, not one where like Craig writes law and order

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police come down to decide who owns what Bitcoin.

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So I thought that was kind of funny.

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Just to wrap up, those are the three things I didn't like lately.

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Someone said the trustless sidechains are perpetual motion.

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Someone else said that multisig is potentially more

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The last thing I to say

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is

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that the Bitcoiners choose which model

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they want. Give them a second option.

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Right now, there's almost no use of Bitcoin sidechains.

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It's like $100 million.

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It's less than 1 % of all Bitcoin value is in these sidechains.

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If we have a different sidechain model, that's probably much better, at least I would

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agree with that, then maybe there'll be like

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a huge amount more demand, which means higher Bitcoin value, higher Bitcoin price, more

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miner income, higher Bitcoin value.

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Everyone's a with a more like a higher rate of value accrual.

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Teddy, welcome to the stage.

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Teddy, one of my frequent conversation partners from Cafe Bitcoin

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in the Clubhouse app.

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to see you here.

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What's on your mind?

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Please share your thoughts about anything.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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just thought I'd join to listen in, see how the conversation goes, if there's anything

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new in the Drivechain world.

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When are these BIPs 300, 301 getting pushed through?

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I guess that's really the question.

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Well,

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I think that it draws closer day by day.

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It could be a matter of months

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or very few years away.

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It really depends on what the community wants.

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Unlike, you know, the presidential

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quadrennial cycle,

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with Bitcoin BIPs,

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there's no way of being sure

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when the next one might come.

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With, you know, we got

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SegWit 2017,

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Taproot 2021.

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So that was like four years,

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or roughly four or five years,

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depending on how many months there were involved.

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So the next one could be

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2023, 2024.

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I saw a tweet from

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one of the leading thinkers in sidechains,

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Sergio Demian Lerner,

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and he wrote that

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probably 2023,

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4 or 5, like in that range,

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we'll get drivechain.

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I forget exactly which years he said

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would be the drivechain years

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in his model of the future,

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his expectation, but, you know,

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he's one of the leading thinkers on this topic.

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He is emphatically in favor

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of drivechain, if I'm not mistaken.

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He even recently commented in a tweet

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that it is the objective

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of the Rootstock Bitcoin

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sidechain community to

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develop into a drivechain

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as soon as it is available

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on Bitcoin to do that.

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This is one of the top two sidechains

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on Bitcoin currently. The top two are

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Liquid and Rootstock,

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and he would like Rootstock to become

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a drivechain, which would be

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very cool.

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That's just one person's outlook on when

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this might happen. I would say lately

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there have been multiple drivers

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for greater interest in drivechain.

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Multiple people have commented

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that they're seeing a great uptick,

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uptick in the level of energy

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and interest in drivechain.

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So maybe in the coming months

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we'll see significantly more

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momentum across the community

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as the blockchain

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community, you know,

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Bitcoin and others, explore

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the crypto-economic potential of

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layers, developing layers

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on Bitcoin. You know, it's something that

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even the

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critics of drivechain, some of the most

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vocal critics of drivechain, still

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do assert that Bitcoin

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must become more layered.

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So there's a question of, do we

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want layers? And then, if we're going to have

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layers, should a drivechain

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sidechain model be one of them?

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So those are some of the factors

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that are pushing greater attention

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to drivechain. Like, you could come to

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drivechain directly, or you could start

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just looking around, like, how can we make Bitcoin more

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layered? How can we have more extensibility

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for Bitcoin? Give people

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more options, different ways to

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build and use on top of

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Bitcoin in ways that internalize

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the value of that development

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to Bitcoin and its block space.

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Drivechain is one way to do that. I think

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a very compelling way, and I feel that

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over time, as Bitcoin grows,

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the need and pressure for

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that development will grow.

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A person

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can get interested in drivechain if they think

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fees are too low.

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A person can get interested in drivechain

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because they think fees are too high.

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So whichever way we go, it'll

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cause interest and studying

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of drivechain.

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And a person can get

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interested in Bitcoin if they think that

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Bitcoin should have more extensibility.

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In other words, make it

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easier and more possible for

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people to build different kinds

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of applications and customizations on

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Bitcoin. Like, use

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Bitcoin in a way that's more

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scalable, like lower fees, higher

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throughput. Use Bitcoin in a way

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that's more private. So

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different exposures are

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possible on sidechains

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that aren't possible on layer 1.

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And that's what extensibility

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means. It's creating

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different kinds of customizations and

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developments and applications on top

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of Bitcoin in a manner

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that brings more value to Bitcoin.

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Rather than, for example, building

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on an altcoin.

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Let's say you want max privacy.

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You go to Monero. You go to Zcash

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or TornadoCash or

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whatever used to be out there. There's different

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things people have done.

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It'd be better if they could just build on

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Bitcoin rather than sell their Bitcoin

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and buy an altcoin. Or if you want

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max scalability, instead of going

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to Solana or Ethereum, it'd be

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better if you could, instead of selling your Bitcoin,

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keep your Bitcoin and use it on a

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sidechain. So that way, you're not

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reducing Bitcoin's value.

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So that's what extensibility

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is this word I've been lately

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trying to develop,

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a vernacular for. And I learned

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from Adam Back, because when he talks

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about drivechain,

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which he has in many tweets,

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Adam Back, the leader

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00:09:09,428 --> 00:09:11,428
of Blockstream, the CEO,

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he likes drivechain and

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has said and talks about it, this word

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extensibility. And I've been finding

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it very useful to become more

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familiar with that word, because I feel like

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it really does capture

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the essence of what drivechain is about.

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It's about increasing Bitcoin's

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extensibility.

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Do you think,

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follow-up question,

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do you think that

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what we're seeing with ordinals and

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inscriptions are

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a potential

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roadblock

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for

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drivechains due to the fact

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that Taproot

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was pushed through

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and now it seems like some people are

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regretting the Taproot upgrade

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because it has allowed

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for this discounted block space

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and ordinals

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running wild and bringing

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that trading of

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JPEGs over to Bitcoin.

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Do you personally think

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that that might be a speed

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00:10:11,428 --> 00:10:13,428
bump in the road or the plan

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for drivechains

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moving forward, because the community will be

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much more

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careful with what they put

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through next?

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That's a great question.

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I do feel that there's

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a very good chance the community

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will achieve the best

253
00:10:35,428 --> 00:10:37,428
possible understanding,

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which I think would

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00:10:39,428 --> 00:10:41,428
be not to never

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00:10:41,428 --> 00:10:43,428
change again, but instead

257
00:10:43,428 --> 00:10:45,428
to make a change

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which would reduce the need

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for changes in the future.

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It's kind of like if you have a pattern

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of needing something

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00:10:53,428 --> 00:10:55,428
and that thing you need is a problem

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00:10:55,428 --> 00:10:57,428
or creates problems, it'd be

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00:10:57,428 --> 00:10:59,428
great if you could do something that would

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eliminate that future problem,

266
00:11:01,428 --> 00:11:03,428
but you have to make one final change.

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One of the thinkers who talks about this very well

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is Eden Iago.

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00:11:07,428 --> 00:11:09,428
Eden, in multiple tweets, has said

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what Bitcoin needs is to stop

271
00:11:11,428 --> 00:11:13,428
changing so much, because that

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00:11:13,428 --> 00:11:15,428
can be disruptive and create

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unintended problems

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00:11:17,428 --> 00:11:19,428
like exploits and new uses

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00:11:19,428 --> 00:11:21,428
of the code that weren't intended or

276
00:11:21,428 --> 00:11:23,428
contemplated, but

277
00:11:23,428 --> 00:11:25,428
what we need, Teddy, in my

278
00:11:25,428 --> 00:11:27,428
view, I feel personally that

279
00:11:27,428 --> 00:11:29,428
the drivechain view is that if we do

280
00:11:29,428 --> 00:11:31,428
drivechain, changes like

281
00:11:31,428 --> 00:11:33,428
SegWit and Taproot in the future

282
00:11:33,428 --> 00:11:35,428
wouldn't be necessary possibly

283
00:11:35,428 --> 00:11:37,428
because we would have made a change

284
00:11:37,428 --> 00:11:39,428
by doing drivechain

285
00:11:39,428 --> 00:11:41,428
that enables all these

286
00:11:41,428 --> 00:11:43,428
uses to occur on the second

287
00:11:43,428 --> 00:11:45,428
layers, so experimentation

288
00:11:45,428 --> 00:11:47,428
and changes can happen there in a

289
00:11:47,428 --> 00:11:49,428
partitioned context, which

290
00:11:49,428 --> 00:11:51,428
if they fail, do not affect

291
00:11:51,428 --> 00:11:53,428
mainchain users and mainchain

292
00:11:53,428 --> 00:11:55,428
stability. So

293
00:11:55,428 --> 00:11:57,428
what drivechain does is, yes,

294
00:11:57,428 --> 00:11:59,428
it's one more change, that's true,

295
00:11:59,428 --> 00:12:01,428
but

296
00:12:01,428 --> 00:12:03,428
it would enable us

297
00:12:03,428 --> 00:12:05,428
possibly to achieve a higher

298
00:12:05,428 --> 00:12:07,428
level of ossification, meaning

299
00:12:07,428 --> 00:12:09,428
a much higher level of feeling

300
00:12:09,428 --> 00:12:11,428
that we might never have to change

301
00:12:11,428 --> 00:12:13,428
or if we do, it might be very

302
00:12:13,428 --> 00:12:15,428
far in the future instead of every five years

303
00:12:15,428 --> 00:12:17,428
like SegWit, Taproot,

304
00:12:17,428 --> 00:12:19,428
you know, drivechain, that could be

305
00:12:19,428 --> 00:12:21,428
the last one, and maybe

306
00:12:21,428 --> 00:12:23,428
if we had done drivechain

307
00:12:23,428 --> 00:12:25,428
before Taproot, we

308
00:12:25,428 --> 00:12:27,428
could have done drivechain,

309
00:12:27,428 --> 00:12:29,428
we could have done Taproot on a drivechain

310
00:12:29,428 --> 00:12:31,428
and then we would have been

311
00:12:31,428 --> 00:12:33,428
able to find out more about how

312
00:12:33,428 --> 00:12:35,428
it really works, because

313
00:12:35,428 --> 00:12:37,428
when you're running an experiment live,

314
00:12:37,428 --> 00:12:39,428
that's a great way to see how things really

315
00:12:39,428 --> 00:12:41,428
work, and if we had done

316
00:12:41,428 --> 00:12:43,428
Taproot on a drivechain,

317
00:12:43,428 --> 00:12:45,428
then we would have been able to see

318
00:12:45,428 --> 00:12:47,428
possibly this kind of thing,

319
00:12:47,428 --> 00:12:49,428
like ordinals, and then we would have

320
00:12:49,428 --> 00:12:51,428
been able to make a more informed

321
00:12:51,428 --> 00:12:53,428
choice about whether to bring that

322
00:12:53,428 --> 00:12:55,428
Taproot technology down to layer

323
00:12:55,428 --> 00:12:57,428
one. So what drivechain does

324
00:12:57,428 --> 00:12:59,428
is it enables different

325
00:12:59,428 --> 00:13:01,428
development proposals

326
00:13:01,428 --> 00:13:03,428
for Bitcoin layer one to operate

327
00:13:03,428 --> 00:13:05,428
in reality on a drive

328
00:13:05,428 --> 00:13:07,428
chain first, where it's

329
00:13:07,428 --> 00:13:09,428
safer than doing it on layer one,

330
00:13:09,428 --> 00:13:11,428
and those ideas can compete

331
00:13:11,428 --> 00:13:13,428
because let's say we did Taproot on

332
00:13:13,428 --> 00:13:15,428
one drivechain, and on a different drivechain

333
00:13:15,428 --> 00:13:17,428
we do something else. Well, if the

334
00:13:17,428 --> 00:13:19,428
Taproot drivechain accrues

335
00:13:19,428 --> 00:13:21,428
$10 million of value

336
00:13:21,428 --> 00:13:23,428
and then the other drivechain accrues

337
00:13:23,428 --> 00:13:25,428
$10 billion, well, we know

338
00:13:25,428 --> 00:13:27,428
which one is more worth doing.

339
00:13:27,428 --> 00:13:29,428
So drivechain allows

340
00:13:29,428 --> 00:13:31,428
for Bitcoin development

341
00:13:31,428 --> 00:13:33,428
to evolve into

342
00:13:33,428 --> 00:13:35,428
a superior dynamic, where

343
00:13:35,428 --> 00:13:37,428
instead of it being one of deliberation,

344
00:13:37,428 --> 00:13:39,428
it's one of competition,

345
00:13:39,428 --> 00:13:41,428
because there can be multiple drivechains

346
00:13:41,428 --> 00:13:43,428
and we can easily see through capitalism

347
00:13:43,428 --> 00:13:45,428
which one has the greatest

348
00:13:45,428 --> 00:13:47,428
value, which one has the greatest

349
00:13:47,428 --> 00:13:49,428
users, which one is bringing

350
00:13:49,428 --> 00:13:51,428
the most fees down to layer one.

351
00:13:51,428 --> 00:13:53,428
So it enables ideas to compete

352
00:13:53,428 --> 00:13:55,428
and competition is

353
00:13:55,428 --> 00:13:57,428
better than deliberation. Like in

354
00:13:57,428 --> 00:13:59,428
Soviet Russia, the way they would make

355
00:13:59,428 --> 00:14:01,428
ideas in the government

356
00:14:01,428 --> 00:14:03,428
was like, in society, was

357
00:14:03,428 --> 00:14:05,428
primarily government deliberation

358
00:14:05,428 --> 00:14:07,428
and decree.

359
00:14:07,428 --> 00:14:09,428
But with a more

360
00:14:09,428 --> 00:14:11,428
capitalistic system, you have competition,

361
00:14:11,428 --> 00:14:13,428
which is what America is more so about,

362
00:14:13,428 --> 00:14:15,428
which is like, lots of people

363
00:14:15,428 --> 00:14:17,428
have businesses, and the businesses

364
00:14:17,428 --> 00:14:19,428
that are really good get very big.

365
00:14:19,428 --> 00:14:21,428
And they have a larger

366
00:14:21,428 --> 00:14:23,428
influence on society.

367
00:14:23,428 --> 00:14:25,428
Like McDonald's, it's like all over the place

368
00:14:25,428 --> 00:14:27,428
because people want it.

369
00:14:27,428 --> 00:14:29,428
So that's more like drivechain, where

370
00:14:29,428 --> 00:14:31,428
we could have

371
00:14:31,428 --> 00:14:33,428
200 different drivechains

372
00:14:33,428 --> 00:14:35,428
and we could see which ones are really

373
00:14:35,428 --> 00:14:37,428
successful and which ones aren't stable,

374
00:14:37,428 --> 00:14:39,428
which ones have good code, which ones

375
00:14:39,428 --> 00:14:41,428
don't. So that

376
00:14:41,428 --> 00:14:43,428
is what drivechain enables. It enables

377
00:14:43,428 --> 00:14:45,428
more competition among ideas

378
00:14:45,428 --> 00:14:47,428
for Bitcoin. And all

379
00:14:47,428 --> 00:14:49,428
of them will create higher value

380
00:14:49,428 --> 00:14:51,428
for Bitcoin. It will send

381
00:14:51,428 --> 00:14:53,428
the Bitcoin price to the moon, in

382
00:14:53,428 --> 00:14:55,428
my view, because

383
00:14:55,428 --> 00:14:57,428
when you're demanding

384
00:14:57,428 --> 00:14:59,428
the drivechain native token, you're

385
00:14:59,428 --> 00:15:01,428
demanding a synthetic Bitcoin. The only

386
00:15:01,428 --> 00:15:03,428
way to create that Bitcoin on the

387
00:15:03,428 --> 00:15:05,428
drivechain is to

388
00:15:05,428 --> 00:15:07,428
build up Layer 1 Bitcoin in the

389
00:15:07,428 --> 00:15:09,428
Hashrate escrow. That's the nature of the

390
00:15:09,428 --> 00:15:11,428
two-way peg. So when people

391
00:15:11,428 --> 00:15:13,428
pull value into the drivechain,

392
00:15:13,428 --> 00:15:15,428
they do it by sending Layer 1

393
00:15:15,428 --> 00:15:17,428
Bitcoin into the Hashrate escrow, which

394
00:15:17,428 --> 00:15:19,428
takes Bitcoin out of circulation, which

395
00:15:19,428 --> 00:15:21,428
causes the Bitcoin price to go up.

396
00:15:21,428 --> 00:15:23,428
In other words, if there's a ton of demand

397
00:15:23,428 --> 00:15:25,428
for these drivechain native tokens,

398
00:15:25,428 --> 00:15:27,428
that's a ton of demand for synthetic

399
00:15:27,428 --> 00:15:29,428
Bitcoin. It's like wrapped Bitcoin.

400
00:15:29,428 --> 00:15:31,428
Right now, there's $4 billion

401
00:15:31,428 --> 00:15:33,428
in wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum.

402
00:15:33,428 --> 00:15:35,428
If that number were to go to $10 billion,

403
00:15:35,428 --> 00:15:37,428
that means Bitcoin's price will

404
00:15:37,428 --> 00:15:39,428
have risen. Because

405
00:15:39,428 --> 00:15:41,428
the only way to create that wrapped Bitcoin

406
00:15:41,428 --> 00:15:43,428
is, presumably, by locking

407
00:15:43,428 --> 00:15:45,428
up Layer 1 Bitcoin

408
00:15:45,428 --> 00:15:47,428
in that federation,

409
00:15:47,428 --> 00:15:49,428
in that company's multisig.

410
00:15:49,428 --> 00:15:51,428
So what we want is for

411
00:15:51,428 --> 00:15:53,428
these two-way pegs not to

412
00:15:53,428 --> 00:15:55,428
be federated, but instead to have

413
00:15:55,428 --> 00:15:57,428
Bitcoin users have the option

414
00:15:57,428 --> 00:15:59,428
to use a miner control peg.

415
00:15:59,428 --> 00:16:01,428
And then we think, as

416
00:16:01,428 --> 00:16:03,428
drive chainers, if we are, I am,

417
00:16:03,428 --> 00:16:05,428
that there'll be much more

418
00:16:05,428 --> 00:16:07,428
demand for them, because people will understand

419
00:16:07,428 --> 00:16:09,428
them correctly to be a more reliable,

420
00:16:09,428 --> 00:16:11,428
a more secure model, more

421
00:16:11,428 --> 00:16:13,428
Bitcoin-y, right? It's more Bitcoin-y

422
00:16:13,428 --> 00:16:15,428
to have a peer-to-peer mechanism,

423
00:16:15,428 --> 00:16:17,428
where the order

424
00:16:17,428 --> 00:16:19,428
is emergent from

425
00:16:19,428 --> 00:16:21,428
anonymous, self-interested,

426
00:16:21,428 --> 00:16:23,428
mutually distrusting parties,

427
00:16:23,428 --> 00:16:25,428
the miners, to do what's

428
00:16:25,428 --> 00:16:27,428
in their best interest, which is to secure the peg.

429
00:16:27,428 --> 00:16:29,428
That's how Bitcoin works,

430
00:16:29,428 --> 00:16:31,428
and that's how the pegs will work.

431
00:16:35,428 --> 00:16:37,428
So, ultimately, it's about

432
00:16:37,428 --> 00:16:39,428
number-go-up technology.

433
00:16:39,428 --> 00:16:41,428
That's like the simplest case for a drivechain,

434
00:16:41,428 --> 00:16:43,428
is that it'll make Bitcoin more valuable.

435
00:16:43,428 --> 00:16:45,428
It's also, to me, much

436
00:16:45,428 --> 00:16:47,428
more interesting and superior.

437
00:16:47,428 --> 00:16:49,428
A system, like you raised the issue of

438
00:16:49,428 --> 00:16:51,428
taproot, unintended consequences,

439
00:16:51,428 --> 00:16:53,428
the hazards of a development.

440
00:16:53,607 --> 00:17:18,607
In Bitcoin, and those are great thoughts. So, yeah, drivechain is a change, but it's a change designed to be perhaps the last change, or maybe at least the last change for a long time, which increases the degree of ossification afforded to the Bitcoin community, which allows for a stronger narrative of sort of stability and digital gold, which is an important part of the value accrual narrative.

441
00:17:23,607 --> 00:17:32,607
Did you fall asleep? What are your thoughts on that?

442
00:17:32,607 --> 00:17:56,607
No, I'm here, yeah. Sounds like what you've been saying for the last year. So, interested to see how it plays out. I do think that we might already be at a state of ossification and don't have a need to make any more changes, personally, but drivechain does seem to have some sort of value add.

443
00:17:57,607 --> 00:18:06,607
You've heard me say that before, but yeah, gotta, I guess, wait and see if everybody else feels the same way.

444
00:18:06,607 --> 00:18:28,607
Maybe it's a good idea, as far as marketing is concerned, to copy and paste the BIPs as the new BIPs, not BIP300, 301, and call them the last BIP, just for marketing purposes. I'm kind of joking, saying this right now.

445
00:18:28,607 --> 00:18:46,607
But yeah, anyways, I think it's all good and well, and drivechains could be valuable. I think that we've seen fees go up, you know, because of this Ordinal stuff. This meme posted at the top is pretty funny there.

446
00:18:47,607 --> 00:19:09,607
Yeah, there's a lot, you know, we need consensus. I think that a lot of people are probably like, well, do fees really need to go up right now, or is the security budget good, and it's because of this recent spike in fees. But yeah, I guess we've got to kind of wait and see.

447
00:19:09,607 --> 00:19:25,607
Totally. I've noticed that some of the leading thinkers in Ethereum are quite confident that Bitcoin is on a road that leads nowhere, in terms of economic security.

448
00:19:25,607 --> 00:19:52,607
They look at the fee market, and they look at the halving cycle, and the inevitable nature of the halvings. Every four years, you know, the march of time, is it in Bitcoin's favor? And they FUD Bitcoin. There's one person, I don't want to name, who has over 100,000 followers, and all the time, he's saying jokes and sneers about Bitcoin needing to have inflation in the future.

449
00:19:52,607 --> 00:20:12,607
And it's not only Ethereum altcoiners who say this. It's also some of the highly respected intellectuals within Bitcoin's community. A couple of them think that it'd be quite acceptable, if not best, for Bitcoin to seriously contemplate inflation.

450
00:20:12,607 --> 00:20:34,607
So, I am personally trying to steer away from the security budget side of the discussion for Drivechain, and steer toward the value accrual to the token, because the token is so much more relatable for everyone. Almost everyone can relate to the token's value, and very few people are interested in the academic subject of the value of the block space.

451
00:20:34,607 --> 00:20:53,607
But, with regard to that matter, among the people who are interested in this, you know, sort of public good of the value of the block space, and the network security, the security of the UTXOs, I do think that these altcoiners, in the worst case, would be vindicated.

452
00:20:53,607 --> 00:21:14,607
I think that, like, perpetually low fees on layer one would be a problem. I mean, almost all of the miner income right now comes from the coinbase, right, the inflation or subsidy. Well, probably the least controversial word to call it is just the coinbase. People sometimes get triggered if you call it the subsidy.

453
00:21:15,607 --> 00:21:24,607
Satoshi called it the subsidy in the code, literally, called it subsidy. But, at least I've seen a screenshot of that.

454
00:21:24,607 --> 00:21:28,607
You want to get somebody triggered, Henry, you just got to call it the gas fees.

455
00:21:28,607 --> 00:21:31,607
Oh my god, gas.

456
00:21:59,607 --> 00:22:08,607
And, yeah, he's not optimistic about Bitcoin's long-term economic security. So, I imagine that's one of the reasons that perhaps led him to be interested mostly in Ethereum.

457
00:22:08,607 --> 00:22:12,607
Although, I don't want to speak for him. I haven't spoken to him in a couple of months, but he's a nice guy.

458
00:22:13,607 --> 00:22:18,607
But, when I asked him once about, are you interested in drivechain, he wasn't familiar with it much.

459
00:22:18,607 --> 00:22:25,607
And, I do feel that these altcoiners could, if drivechain's adopted, be blindsided by its performance.

460
00:22:25,607 --> 00:22:28,607
The performance of drivechain could blindside them.

461
00:22:29,607 --> 00:22:54,607
It could really surprise them because Vitalik is on record saying, Vitalik and others, who probably are just parodying his ideas, are on record saying that because of Bitcoin's fixed issuance in the long term, because of Bitcoin's reliance on a transaction fee economic security model, Bitcoin will have to resort to inflation, have to violate its monetary policy.

462
00:22:54,607 --> 00:22:59,607
And, I think they're wrong. And, I think they're wrong for reasons that have been known from the very beginning.

463
00:22:59,607 --> 00:23:09,607
Satoshi wrote at the very beginning, well, not at the very beginning, in August 2010, he wrote in the BitDNS thread that all the networks in the world would be merged mine with Bitcoin.

464
00:23:09,607 --> 00:23:14,607
He wrote that exactly. Or, I'm quoting almost exactly, just from memory.

465
00:23:14,607 --> 00:23:18,607
But, it was unambiguous what he meant there. He said all the networks in the world.

466
00:23:19,607 --> 00:23:23,607
And, he was talking about every single blockchain protocol being merged mine with Bitcoin.

467
00:23:23,607 --> 00:23:26,607
And, drivechain is that ambition.

468
00:23:26,607 --> 00:23:29,607
That is what drivechain aspires to be.

469
00:23:29,607 --> 00:23:42,607
It aspires to be the technology that facilitates the conglomeration of every protocol that has any value at all to be a Bitcoin merge mine sidechain.

470
00:23:43,607 --> 00:23:54,607
And then, we would over time march back to 100% dominance, not just of blockchain token value, but of block space value, which is the security budget topic.

471
00:23:54,607 --> 00:24:03,607
If Bitcoin could magnetize all of the altcoin projects onto Bitcoin in that manner, then we would have 100% dominance.

472
00:24:03,607 --> 00:24:06,607
And, we would have all of the fees paid to Bitcoin miners.

473
00:24:06,607 --> 00:24:08,607
It would be phenomenal.

474
00:24:08,607 --> 00:24:13,607
Right now, there's about 15 times more fees paid to altcoins than Bitcoin.

475
00:24:13,607 --> 00:24:21,607
If Bitcoin had all those fees, which of course is a projection, so we can't assume that would exactly occur that way mathematically.

476
00:24:21,607 --> 00:24:28,607
But, if Bitcoin had 15 times more transaction fees, absolutely nobody would be talking about inflation for Bitcoin.

477
00:24:28,607 --> 00:24:34,607
The miners would be getting millions of dollars and more than they do now per day.

478
00:24:34,607 --> 00:24:43,607
We would have a ton more assurance that the long run fee-reliant economic security model is intact and perfectly viable.

479
00:24:43,607 --> 00:24:45,607
So, that's what we want.

480
00:24:45,607 --> 00:24:49,607
We want every transaction fee to be a Bitcoin miner receipt.

481
00:24:49,607 --> 00:24:51,607
And, that would be awesome.

482
00:24:51,607 --> 00:24:53,607
There would be no more security budget FUD.

483
00:24:53,607 --> 00:25:04,607
I think Drivechain has the potential, in my personal view, to completely end all security budget FUD and return our block space dominance to 100%.

484
00:25:04,607 --> 00:25:08,607
And, of course, more notably, send the Bitcoin value up.

485
00:25:08,607 --> 00:25:13,607
Because, if there's only Bitcoin instead of all these altcoins, we'd be at 100% dominance.

486
00:25:13,607 --> 00:25:20,607
We'd be at a price probably at least double what we have right now, if not much higher.

487
00:25:20,607 --> 00:25:25,607
Because, there'd be so much more understanding and confidence in Bitcoin as the dominant project.

488
00:25:25,607 --> 00:25:33,607
Rather than having all these altcoins vying for world domination as Bitcoin's dominance declines.

489
00:25:33,607 --> 00:25:36,607
They're all hoping to be the next big one.

490
00:25:36,607 --> 00:25:41,607
And, that leads to all this adversarial mindset among the altcoin projects.

491
00:25:41,607 --> 00:25:48,607
They're all competing and there's all this nasty, mean-spirited competition and rhetoric among the projects.

492
00:25:49,607 --> 00:25:51,607
Rather than having everyone get along.

493
00:25:55,607 --> 00:26:05,607
If you're the kind of person who likes to fight with a fake wrestling mindset, then the altcoin stuff, not you, but anyone, might be for them.

494
00:26:05,607 --> 00:26:14,607
But, if you're the kind of person who wants to see all of humanity collaborate and cooperate productively in a mutually beneficial arrangement,

495
00:26:14,607 --> 00:26:19,607
then the use of a single protocol that is optimally configured would be ideal.

496
00:26:19,607 --> 00:26:21,607
And, that's what Drivechain tries to do.

497
00:26:21,607 --> 00:26:26,607
It tries to make Bitcoin the layer one for every single blockchain.

498
00:26:26,607 --> 00:26:28,607
Every blockchain is a protocol.

499
00:26:28,607 --> 00:26:30,607
Every sidechain is a protocol.

500
00:26:30,607 --> 00:26:34,607
And, every single altcoin could be cloned into a drivechain.

501
00:26:34,607 --> 00:26:36,607
And then, they would use Bitcoin.

502
00:26:36,607 --> 00:26:38,607
They'd all be Bitcoiners.

503
00:26:38,607 --> 00:26:41,607
And, we'd all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

504
00:26:41,607 --> 00:26:43,607
And, the lion would lay down with the lamb.

505
00:26:43,607 --> 00:26:46,607
And, Jesus would come back with the Mashiach.

506
00:26:46,607 --> 00:26:49,607
And, everyone would be happy all the time.

507
00:26:49,607 --> 00:26:51,607
There'd be constant rejoicing and partying.

508
00:26:51,607 --> 00:26:54,607
It'd be great.

509
00:26:54,607 --> 00:26:58,607
Unlimited sex with no venereal disease.

510
00:26:58,607 --> 00:27:00,607
It would just be nirvana.

511
00:27:00,607 --> 00:27:02,607
People would be ecstatic.

512
00:27:02,607 --> 00:27:05,607
I think about it all the time.

513
00:27:05,607 --> 00:27:07,607
Drivechain truly is the future.

514
00:27:07,607 --> 00:27:09,607
Teddy, are you fired up?

515
00:27:10,607 --> 00:27:12,607
So fired up right now, dude.

516
00:27:12,607 --> 00:27:19,607
You are the most energized Twitter Spaces host on this platform.

517
00:27:19,607 --> 00:27:23,607
Can't go a day without listening to you chat.

518
00:27:23,607 --> 00:27:26,607
So, great stuff.

519
00:27:26,607 --> 00:27:33,607
Is there a block explorer for Drivechain out there right now?

520
00:27:33,607 --> 00:27:35,607
Does it work?

521
00:27:35,607 --> 00:27:41,607
We have a thumbs up from a leading Drivechain thinker in the audience.

522
00:27:41,607 --> 00:27:44,607
So, I think the answers to those things are yes.

523
00:27:44,607 --> 00:27:48,607
You should go and check it out and report back.

524
00:27:48,607 --> 00:27:56,607
If you have any questions about any specific content on the layer2labs.com website or drivechain.info website,

525
00:27:56,607 --> 00:28:03,607
please engage by sharing your thoughts and questions in the Drivechain Talk Telegram group.

526
00:28:03,607 --> 00:28:09,607
It is constantly monitored and people participate in it 24-7.

527
00:28:09,607 --> 00:28:18,607
So, the Drivechain Talk Telegram group, you can easily find it if you're not already involved by going to drivechain.info.

528
00:28:18,607 --> 00:28:21,607
That's drivechain.info.

529
00:28:21,607 --> 00:28:23,607
And then click on the right-hand links list.

530
00:28:23,607 --> 00:28:25,607
Click on Telegram.

531
00:28:25,607 --> 00:28:29,607
And when you do that, it will take you to the Telegram app.

532
00:28:29,607 --> 00:28:31,607
You'll see the Drivechain Talk group.

533
00:28:31,607 --> 00:28:34,607
It has 728 members.

534
00:28:34,607 --> 00:28:36,607
Right now, 74 are online.

535
00:28:36,607 --> 00:28:38,607
That's how obsessed people are with Drivechain.

536
00:28:38,607 --> 00:28:41,607
They can't peel themselves away.

537
00:28:41,607 --> 00:28:45,607
Seventy-four people are discussing Drivechain on Friday evening.

538
00:28:45,607 --> 00:28:46,607
That's how hot this is.

539
00:28:46,607 --> 00:28:49,607
That's how sexy the topic is.

540
00:28:49,607 --> 00:28:50,607
Maybe they're on there with their date.

541
00:28:50,607 --> 00:28:55,607
Maybe they meet up with their date like, hey, Sarah, do you want to do the Drivechain Talk group again?

542
00:28:55,607 --> 00:28:56,607
Sure.

543
00:28:56,607 --> 00:28:57,607
Let's do it, Billy.

544
00:28:57,607 --> 00:29:01,607
And then they're on there, and they're asking questions about the Block Explorer.

545
00:29:01,607 --> 00:29:03,607
There's different subgroups you can get into.

546
00:29:03,607 --> 00:29:04,607
There's the general.

547
00:29:04,607 --> 00:29:06,607
There's the off-topic.

548
00:29:06,607 --> 00:29:17,607
There's the prediction market hive mind group where they talk about the peer-to-peer Oracle network, which is going to be an extremely exciting Drivechain, probably the most exciting of all.

549
00:29:17,607 --> 00:29:19,607
It's kind of like a supercar.

550
00:29:19,607 --> 00:29:21,607
This Drivechain is like a supercar.

551
00:29:22,607 --> 00:29:30,607
You can buy the Ford Mustang or the Ford Bronco, but they have a supercar called the GT40.

552
00:29:30,607 --> 00:29:34,607
You're the kind of guy who knows fancy cars and watches and things.

553
00:29:34,607 --> 00:29:35,607
You would know this.

554
00:29:35,607 --> 00:29:38,607
The GT40, it costs like a quarter million dollars or something.

555
00:29:38,607 --> 00:29:40,607
It goes like zero to 60 in one second.

556
00:29:40,607 --> 00:29:42,607
It's a crazy powerful car.

557
00:29:42,607 --> 00:29:45,607
It's like a flying gas can, like 12-cylinder monster.

558
00:29:45,607 --> 00:29:51,607
Almost no one buys one, but it does increase the brand value of Ford a lot.

559
00:29:51,607 --> 00:29:53,607
Hive mind is going to be like that.

560
00:29:53,607 --> 00:29:59,607
Its market cap might just be a few hundred million dollars, which isn't going to be much when Bitcoin is like a trillion.

561
00:29:59,607 --> 00:30:05,607
But it'll be the most exciting and cool thing ever in the history of the world.

562
00:30:05,607 --> 00:30:08,607
And therefore, it'll be like the supercar in the lineup.

563
00:30:09,607 --> 00:30:15,607
So people will buy more ordinary Fords because Ford has that race car, that supercar.

564
00:30:15,607 --> 00:30:24,607
Similarly, Bitcoin, if it has these awesome Drivechains, these very cool protocols attached to it, like a barnacle on a whale.

565
00:30:24,607 --> 00:30:30,607
Although it's small, if the barnacle is very interesting, it makes the whole whale cooler.

566
00:30:30,607 --> 00:30:33,607
So Hive mind might be like that.

567
00:30:33,607 --> 00:30:36,607
So I think some of these Drivechains might be huge.

568
00:30:36,607 --> 00:30:37,607
Others might be small.

569
00:30:37,607 --> 00:30:46,607
But all of them potentially would be so interesting and cool that it would make people know that very cool things can be built on Bitcoin.

570
00:30:46,607 --> 00:30:49,607
And that is a very important part of Drivechain.

571
00:30:49,607 --> 00:31:01,607
Even if the Drivechains aren't that large economically, there is a potential that in terms of narrative, they strengthen Bitcoin immeasurably.

572
00:31:02,607 --> 00:31:09,607
Just like how, as I said, Ford doesn't sell that many GT40s, doesn't sell that many supercars.

573
00:31:09,607 --> 00:31:11,607
They probably lose money on that thing.

574
00:31:11,607 --> 00:31:16,607
But it increases the brand value a lot to have that supercar in their lineup.

575
00:31:16,607 --> 00:31:18,607
Just like the Dodge Viper.

576
00:31:18,607 --> 00:31:20,607
They don't sell that many Dodge Vipers.

577
00:31:20,607 --> 00:31:22,607
But it is one of the coolest cars.

578
00:31:22,607 --> 00:31:24,607
It makes the whole Dodge lineup cooler.

579
00:31:24,607 --> 00:31:28,607
When people pull into the dealership, they see the Viper up on the platform.

580
00:31:28,607 --> 00:31:30,607
And they're like, wow, cool, Dodge.

581
00:31:30,607 --> 00:31:31,607
Let me go buy a minivan.

582
00:31:31,607 --> 00:31:35,607
But the Viper is out there signaling coolness.

583
00:31:35,607 --> 00:31:44,607
So Bitcoin can enhance its coolness a lot by having these high-tech advanced projects that are only possible in a Drivechain.

584
00:31:44,607 --> 00:31:48,607
And that's a big part of what Drivechain is all about.

585
00:31:48,607 --> 00:31:51,607
Because narratives in blockchain are very important.

586
00:31:52,607 --> 00:31:59,607
It's very important to have your blockchain be the one people think is going to deliver really interesting, important things.

587
00:31:59,607 --> 00:32:04,607
So Drivechain helps with that narrative a lot, potentially.

588
00:32:04,607 --> 00:32:06,607
It's all about the future.

589
00:32:06,607 --> 00:32:07,607
So nothing is certain.

590
00:32:07,607 --> 00:32:09,607
I can't promise anything about anything.

591
00:32:09,607 --> 00:32:14,607
I can't say with absolute certainty, if we don't do Drivechain, the world will end.

592
00:32:14,607 --> 00:32:18,607
And if we do do it, then we all are good-looking, you know, and perfect.

593
00:32:18,607 --> 00:32:20,607
Like I can't promise those things.

594
00:32:20,607 --> 00:32:27,607
But the truth is likely somewhere in the middle, which is like it's an important consideration, needs to be studied carefully.

595
00:32:27,607 --> 00:32:31,607
And the benefits are both technological and economic, as well as psychological.

596
00:32:31,607 --> 00:32:36,607
As I'm describing, for example, HiveMind, this peer-to-peer oracle network.

597
00:32:36,607 --> 00:32:38,607
Very important, Bitcoin has that.

598
00:32:38,607 --> 00:32:44,607
If something like that were built on an altcoin, it would make the altcoin much cooler, potentially.

599
00:32:44,607 --> 00:32:48,607
So it's important we have these very, very smart people who have innovative ideas.

600
00:32:48,607 --> 00:32:51,607
It's important they do it in Bitcoin.

601
00:32:51,607 --> 00:32:54,607
We need to enable that kind of extensibility for Bitcoin.

602
00:32:54,607 --> 00:32:58,607
And that way, these cool ideas can be done on Bitcoin.

603
00:33:04,607 --> 00:33:11,607
Well, yeah, I just joined the Telegram chat group, and I made a joke that apparently the admins didn't like.

604
00:33:11,607 --> 00:33:15,607
So I've been banned from the server, so I won't be participating.

605
00:33:16,607 --> 00:33:18,607
Oh, Teddy, you weren't banned.

606
00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:19,607
You weren't banned.

607
00:33:19,607 --> 00:33:20,607
Let me explain.

608
00:33:20,607 --> 00:33:21,607
How does it work?

609
00:33:21,607 --> 00:33:30,607
There's an interesting situation where people very often, when they join the Drivechain Telegram group, are booted by a bot.

610
00:33:30,607 --> 00:33:36,607
The bot asks you a CAPTCHA, but it asks you the CAPTCHA, I think, only in the general thread.

611
00:33:36,607 --> 00:33:42,607
So if you go looking in one of the other threads, you might miss the CAPTCHA, and then it boots you within 30 seconds.

612
00:33:42,607 --> 00:33:49,607
Because we had problems with spam, so we had to have this bot filter out the people who aren't real.

613
00:33:49,607 --> 00:33:53,607
But sometimes there's a false positive, so it's not your fault.

614
00:33:53,607 --> 00:33:55,607
Many people have reported this problem.

615
00:33:55,607 --> 00:34:00,607
What we need is a better bot for the Telegram group, I think.

616
00:34:00,607 --> 00:34:03,607
So, yeah, you can try again in some amount of time.

617
00:34:03,607 --> 00:34:05,607
Maybe it's like five minutes.

618
00:34:05,607 --> 00:34:08,607
You can just enter again and go to the – yeah, I see you there.

619
00:34:08,607 --> 00:34:12,607
Teddy Bullish AF is typing.

620
00:34:12,607 --> 00:34:13,607
Okay, are you in now?

621
00:34:13,607 --> 00:34:14,607
Is it working?

622
00:34:17,607 --> 00:34:18,607
Yeah, you wrote maybe.

623
00:34:18,607 --> 00:34:19,607
Okay, cool.

624
00:34:19,607 --> 00:34:21,607
I'm glad it appears to be working for you.

625
00:34:21,607 --> 00:34:24,607
I'm glad you mentioned that, because other people probably had the same experience.

626
00:34:24,607 --> 00:34:32,607
They figured that they joined and they were booted because of lack of sexy photo.

627
00:34:33,607 --> 00:34:36,607
But in reality, it was just the bot.

628
00:34:38,607 --> 00:34:40,607
So, yeah, don't think anything of it.

629
00:34:40,607 --> 00:34:44,607
I was going to say, trigger-finger hungry on that ban there.

630
00:34:44,607 --> 00:34:48,607
So, yeah, glad to hear that I'm welcome from the Drivechain community.

631
00:34:48,607 --> 00:34:49,607
Thanks, Henry.

632
00:34:51,607 --> 00:34:52,607
And you're lucky I'm here.

633
00:34:52,607 --> 00:35:01,607
Otherwise, if I didn't join the stage, you probably would have been on mute for a good hour or two talking to yourself there.

634
00:35:02,607 --> 00:35:09,607
Well, yeah, who knows how long I could have gone before I realized I was on mute.

635
00:35:09,607 --> 00:35:15,607
That would have been quite an uninteresting show that we would have recorded.

636
00:35:18,607 --> 00:35:27,607
Well, maybe it'd be great, in case anyone's kind of new, to just review some of the very basics about Drivechain.

637
00:35:27,607 --> 00:35:29,607
So Drivechain is two BIPs.

638
00:35:29,607 --> 00:35:34,607
One is BIP300, and the other is BIP301.

639
00:35:34,607 --> 00:35:37,607
BIP300 is Hashrate Escrow.

640
00:35:37,607 --> 00:35:41,607
BIP301, Blind Merged Mining.

641
00:35:41,607 --> 00:35:43,607
Both are important.

642
00:35:43,607 --> 00:35:51,607
Hashrate Escrow, I've been told by one of the co-authors of the BIPs, Hashrate Escrow is the most important of the two BIPs.

643
00:35:51,607 --> 00:35:53,607
That's really the king.

644
00:35:53,607 --> 00:35:56,607
And then the queen is Blind Merged Mining.

645
00:35:56,607 --> 00:35:59,607
They're both very cool, and they're intended to both be adopted.

646
00:35:59,607 --> 00:36:16,607
But the authors felt that if the community decided for some reason to only do one at a time, that way, by splitting the BIPs into two BIPs instead of all in one, it gives the community the option to contemplate them separately.

647
00:36:16,607 --> 00:36:19,607
But they are intended to be adopted together.

648
00:36:19,607 --> 00:36:21,607
That's the view.

649
00:36:22,607 --> 00:36:29,607
And almost everyone I've spoken to ever about Drivechain who liked the idea liked both of them and the idea of doing them together.

650
00:36:29,607 --> 00:36:32,607
A person can read about them directly on GitHub.

651
00:36:35,237 --> 00:36:40,037
You can also read, if you're not like a programmer, you can read summaries of them written by many

652
00:36:40,037 --> 00:36:45,477
different people. As I mentioned earlier, Fiatjaf has a great essay about Drivechain on his

653
00:36:45,477 --> 00:36:54,677
website, fiatjaf.com. Go there, F-I-A-T-J-A-F.com. He's the creator of Nostr. He, on his website,

654
00:36:54,677 --> 00:36:58,357
if you click on Bitcoin and then click on Drivechain, you'll see his essay. It takes only

655
00:36:58,357 --> 00:37:04,037
five minutes to read. Very well-written, very, very, very clear, well-written essay on Drivechain,

656
00:37:04,037 --> 00:37:10,356
both addressing its benefits as well as addressing the most frequently raised questions and

657
00:37:10,356 --> 00:37:15,957
criticisms. And he defeats those criticisms convincingly, in my view, in his essay.

658
00:37:16,516 --> 00:37:22,356
And there's other great people who've summarized it, like the lightning and Bitcoin developer,

659
00:37:22,356 --> 00:37:32,036
SuperTestNet, and the researcher at Sovereign, John Light. And I mean, I've written my own essay. So

660
00:37:32,036 --> 00:37:39,317
if anyone happens to like the way I think, they can go to my Twitter, which is Henry Magram,

661
00:37:40,196 --> 00:37:48,917
and then they can easily find in my bio the link to my little Substack article called

662
00:37:48,917 --> 00:37:54,357
Why I Support Drivechain for Bitcoin, the Crypto-Economic Potential of Peer-to-Peer Side

663
00:37:54,357 --> 00:37:59,317
Chains. And it's like a one-minute read, very down-to-earth, because I'm more of like a

664
00:37:59,317 --> 00:38:04,836
philosophy and economics guy. So it's pretty simple for me. I'm not going to get into the

665
00:38:04,836 --> 00:38:10,037
deep technical software engineering questions. I mean, I feel that Drivechain is mostly about

666
00:38:10,037 --> 00:38:15,957
economics. It's mostly about making Bitcoin more valuable and more viable from like a kind of top

667
00:38:15,957 --> 00:38:22,917
down economic perspective, more extensibility, more development, more value accrual,

668
00:38:23,476 --> 00:38:29,796
more fees, more value. That's what it's all about. Making Bitcoin healthier, stronger, bigger,

669
00:38:32,277 --> 00:38:35,957
more stamina, more performance, more excitement.

670
00:38:39,077 --> 00:38:40,116
Very personal in nature.

671
00:38:40,917 --> 00:38:49,316
How would you respond to J.W. Weatherman's response to Fiatjaf, where he says it's a

672
00:38:50,277 --> 00:38:56,917
security disaster to vote with hashrate? In Bitcoin, we use hashrate only to order transactions,

673
00:38:56,917 --> 00:39:02,196
but we don't trust it to enforce rules, or we'd all have B-cash now.

674
00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:06,357
11 of 15 federations are far superior to Drivechains.

675
00:39:07,877 --> 00:39:13,956
Yeah, I'm familiar with J.W. Weatherman's thoughts on this topic. I've read many of his tweets

676
00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:20,116
over the last year, and I've listened to him speak in multiple interviews and debates,

677
00:39:21,237 --> 00:39:26,036
and I've also talked to him directly once about a year ago in Cafe Bitcoin.

678
00:39:27,396 --> 00:39:32,997
I think J.W. Weatherman is a very smart and intelligent guy who likes Bitcoin a lot and has

679
00:39:32,997 --> 00:39:41,237
devoted tons of time to Bitcoin. He's a very well-known Bitcoiner, and he's very good at very

680
00:39:41,237 --> 00:39:49,637
carefully examining self-custody, and he has created a widely recognized and quite distinctive

681
00:39:49,637 --> 00:39:56,676
perspective on the nature of self-custody, the importance of open-source code in self-custody

682
00:39:56,676 --> 00:40:03,396
technology. And he speaks very convincingly and with authority on the topic of self-custody and

683
00:40:03,396 --> 00:40:09,797
related matters. So while I don't share his view on Drivechain, I do appreciate his contribution

684
00:40:09,797 --> 00:40:16,756
to Bitcoin generally. So I want to first mention how much I respect and appreciate the fact that

685
00:40:16,756 --> 00:40:21,077
there's no doubting, there's no doubting that J.W. Weatherman is a very smart person

686
00:40:21,717 --> 00:40:28,196
who knows a lot about Bitcoin, especially the topic of things like self-custody and private

687
00:40:28,196 --> 00:40:33,556
keys, open-source technology, and personal security, which is a very hot topic these days.

688
00:40:34,437 --> 00:40:39,316
So that's the first thing, is I think he's cool and I think he's smart. Now, on the topic of

689
00:40:39,316 --> 00:40:45,556
Drivechain, I respectfully disagree with him, and I mean respectfully, sincerely. I'm not

690
00:40:45,556 --> 00:40:52,117
joking about that. I really mean it. I listened to his debate with Paul Sztorc, his debate against

691
00:40:52,117 --> 00:40:59,077
Paul Sztorc. I don't remember which podcast it was on, but I remember distinctly listening to the

692
00:41:00,036 --> 00:41:08,677
whole thing carefully and completely. In my opinion, in that debate, he seemed to me to

693
00:41:08,677 --> 00:41:15,876
demonstrate a lack of familiarity with how Drivechain works and the arguments in favor of it.

694
00:41:16,917 --> 00:41:23,797
I felt in that debate, listening to him for an hour, that he didn't provide a sophisticated

695
00:41:23,797 --> 00:41:26,677
response to any of the points that were raised against him.

696
00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:33,637
So my overall take is that J.W. Weatherman, for some reason, doesn't like Drivechain,

697
00:41:33,637 --> 00:41:39,957
but I do not find that his articulation of his reasoning to be compelling, to be comprehensive.

698
00:41:42,436 --> 00:41:46,357
And I would look forward to actually discussing with him myself directly sometime,

699
00:41:46,357 --> 00:41:51,156
and we could chat about it. I feel that people who care a lot about Bitcoin would agree with

700
00:41:51,156 --> 00:41:58,036
many of the things that Drivechain is intended to improve. So I would have loved in that debate

701
00:41:58,036 --> 00:42:04,756
for it to hear him begin in the style of the great philosophers, which is to first acknowledge

702
00:42:04,756 --> 00:42:10,517
the strengths of one's opponent's view. I would have loved to hear him say, for example,

703
00:42:10,517 --> 00:42:17,397
that Bitcoin over time in the future needs trustless second layers. And I would love to

704
00:42:17,397 --> 00:42:22,917
hear him say what he thinks trustless means and the extent to which a miner control two-way peg

705
00:42:22,917 --> 00:42:28,276
could be thought of as a trustless two-way peg, could be thought of as a peer-to-peer technology.

706
00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:34,117
And then I would have loved to hear him say the benefits of having certain Drivechains,

707
00:42:34,117 --> 00:42:40,196
like would it be good for Bitcoin to have, you know, a scaling layer, like a large block

708
00:42:40,196 --> 00:42:46,596
sidechain, a privacy sidechain, a sidechain that offers greater Turing completeness.

709
00:42:46,596 --> 00:42:51,237
I would have loved to hear him talk about those things. And then after doing that and

710
00:42:51,237 --> 00:42:58,677
acknowledging the strengths, hear him raise questions and skepticism about his concerns,

711
00:42:58,677 --> 00:43:04,036
which I think, if I'm not mistaken, are mainly could be summarized as concerns around

712
00:43:04,036 --> 00:43:10,996
the nature of merged mining and whether merged mining leads to a negative change in the nature

713
00:43:10,996 --> 00:43:17,797
of the incentives for Bitcoin miners. But I didn't hear all that in his debate with Paul.

714
00:43:18,357 --> 00:43:21,876
So I found the debate kind of not like a very good one. I wouldn't even recommend it to people

715
00:43:21,876 --> 00:43:26,436
interested in Drivechain unless they're interested in seeing an example of someone who doesn't

716
00:43:26,436 --> 00:43:31,957
understand Drivechain very well debate the topic. But just to wrap up, like I think that he's a

717
00:43:31,957 --> 00:43:37,476
cool guy and I would definitely enjoy having the opportunity one day to like talk with him

718
00:43:37,476 --> 00:43:42,357
over the Internet or in person about the topic and to hear his view, because he certainly is

719
00:43:42,357 --> 00:43:52,036
an expert on some things in Bitcoin, if not many things. So, yeah, that's my view on that cool dude.

720
00:43:52,276 --> 00:44:04,276
Hiro Gamer, welcome to the stage. Hiro Gamer, Stacks fan. Welcome. What is up?

721
00:44:05,957 --> 00:44:08,436
Thanks for joining. I like your McDonald's hat.

722
00:44:11,237 --> 00:44:18,756
Yeah, thanks for the space. So, yeah, I've been following Drivechain for a while.

723
00:44:19,716 --> 00:44:29,077
So I like to ask, so I don't have anything fundamentally, I don't have any fundamental

724
00:44:29,077 --> 00:44:37,156
problem with Drivechain. But my sort of, I just like to ask, how can we get Drivechain to a

725
00:44:37,156 --> 00:44:43,797
practical state where you can demonstrate the actual benefit that you're saying you are doing

726
00:44:44,677 --> 00:44:52,596
or you're saying that it can do? Because there's a lot of talks about the positive and negative,

727
00:44:53,156 --> 00:45:00,117
but a lot of positive side of Drivechain. But how are you going to be able to demonstrate that

728
00:45:00,117 --> 00:45:06,517
in practice? That's more what I would like to see and what I like to not just hear,

729
00:45:07,317 --> 00:45:14,197
but see in practice playing out. Is there a way to demonstrate? And I have mentioned that

730
00:45:14,197 --> 00:45:19,956
in your Telegram too at some point. And yes, so I just like to see something

731
00:45:22,437 --> 00:45:30,276
live somehow in the works and be able to see the actual benefit that you're saying that

732
00:45:31,237 --> 00:45:39,156
it can do. So when I see something that actually working and brings the benefit Bitcoin,

733
00:45:40,516 --> 00:45:46,997
as you say, it can do, then I think I'll be more convinced. And I think I'm not the only one who's

734
00:45:47,476 --> 00:45:55,557
sort of would be more convinced just by your words, but by seeing the actual result.

735
00:45:56,197 --> 00:46:03,636
So that's what I'm more would like to see. So I don't know if you have any comments about that.

736
00:46:05,877 --> 00:46:12,276
Totally. Those are great thoughts. You are totally right. It is imperative that people have

737
00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:20,197
a real live way of touching and feeling this technology. So what is available right now

738
00:46:20,197 --> 00:46:26,917
at drivechain.info is the ability to download testnet software and experience drivechain that

739
00:46:26,917 --> 00:46:33,956
way. And one of the goals that we have at LayerTwo Labs is to make that testnet software even better,

740
00:46:34,516 --> 00:46:39,797
to make more people interested in using it and to make it easier to use. So work is underway

741
00:46:39,797 --> 00:46:47,317
to make it even better and easier to experience a real live drivechain experience as a test.

742
00:46:47,317 --> 00:46:54,036
So that way Bitcoiners can really relate to how it works, why it's cool. So you're totally right.

743
00:46:54,036 --> 00:46:59,237
You're totally right. People need a way to kind of interact with it, touch it and feel it,

744
00:46:59,237 --> 00:47:04,677
you know, so to speak, and not to have these be purely theoretical discussions.

745
00:47:06,036 --> 00:47:13,476
So right on. I agree with you. Let me know if you have any questions. You can go to drivechain.info

746
00:47:13,476 --> 00:47:18,596
and download some stuff. And if you have questions about it, you can join drivechain talk,

747
00:47:18,596 --> 00:47:25,956
which you have. And in the subgroup called technical support, you can find people getting

748
00:47:25,956 --> 00:47:34,917
questions answered about the software. Yeah, I agree. But a testnet is a testnet. It's not

749
00:47:35,237 --> 00:47:46,437
a mainnet. So is there a way to... I understand you need a BIP pass in order for this to be a

750
00:47:46,437 --> 00:47:55,557
mainnet, but or to have actual functionality to be a mainnet. And I've raised it in the past.

751
00:47:55,557 --> 00:48:02,757
Is there something that you can do without the actual approval of the BIP and you can still

752
00:48:02,757 --> 00:48:09,716
push it to a semi-mainnet, you know, like something that you can actually demonstrate

753
00:48:09,716 --> 00:48:16,917
that's a level up from just a testnet? That is a very good question. I think that's a great

754
00:48:16,917 --> 00:48:22,276
question for the drivechain talk group. You could go in there and ask. And I think some of the

755
00:48:22,917 --> 00:48:30,357
most well-known thinkers on drivechain will comment on the possibilities for different ways

756
00:48:30,357 --> 00:48:37,636
of interacting with this idea in a way that's more materialized than the testnet, you know,

757
00:48:37,636 --> 00:48:44,596
to your question. You have a great question. It's a sophisticated question for the group.

758
00:48:44,596 --> 00:48:50,596
Because over there, you get 700 people thinking about it. Here, you just have me. And, you know,

759
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:57,557
I know only so much. So please bring your question to the group. Hopefully, it'll be a cool answer

760
00:48:58,276 --> 00:48:59,076
for over there.

761
00:49:02,516 --> 00:49:03,557
Cool. Thanks a lot.

762
00:49:04,357 --> 00:49:12,357
Sure. Teddy, did you have any follow-up thoughts on your questions and thoughts?

763
00:49:12,997 --> 00:49:22,437
No, I think you answered them well. Yeah, I think even about JW, I think he's a bit ridiculous.

764
00:49:23,396 --> 00:49:30,036
So I was just wondering what you thought about that point he had made. But other than that,

765
00:49:31,076 --> 00:49:31,877
not really anything else.

766
00:49:31,877 --> 00:49:38,997
You know, Teddy, one of the most interesting things for me in this space is trying to look

767
00:49:38,997 --> 00:49:47,476
at every major thinker, of which JW Weatherman certainly is one, and appreciate the best of their

768
00:49:48,437 --> 00:49:55,396
ideas. There are interesting overlaps, interesting commonalities among these thinkers,

769
00:49:55,956 --> 00:50:01,396
even though they disagree on hot topics. So as you correctly pointed out,

770
00:50:01,396 --> 00:50:04,836
JW Weatherman is not a drivechain proponent at this time.

771
00:50:05,797 --> 00:50:14,997
But he does have an interesting commonality with Paul Sztorc. They are both in the minority

772
00:50:15,797 --> 00:50:22,117
on the topic of these self-custody devices. I don't think this is something Paul talks

773
00:50:22,117 --> 00:50:26,516
about a lot, and I hesitate to speak for him because he no longer is in the audience.

774
00:50:26,516 --> 00:50:32,836
But I have heard him say once or twice in a podcast that he's not a huge fan of these treasures and

775
00:50:32,836 --> 00:50:38,357
Coldcards and whatnot. He's more of a fan of open source technology that you can have

776
00:50:38,917 --> 00:50:44,997
on your phone or laptop. And again, this is my recollecting from memory,

777
00:50:45,636 --> 00:50:48,437
so I could be saying it wrong. I don't want to put words in his mouth.

778
00:50:48,437 --> 00:50:56,757
But I do believe that his views on the hardware devices used for Bitcoin,

779
00:50:56,757 --> 00:51:02,276
like I have a couple of treasures myself, I think his view on those things is somewhat

780
00:51:02,357 --> 00:51:08,036
harmonious with, is somewhat resonant with the views of JW Weatherman. I think those guys,

781
00:51:08,596 --> 00:51:16,276
those two guys actually perhaps agree on a view, which is not the dominant view in Bitcoin,

782
00:51:16,276 --> 00:51:22,757
on that. Because they're both very sophisticated people who have an interesting view on whether

783
00:51:22,757 --> 00:51:29,076
these devices are on net good for the Bitcoin community, to be going all in on this idea that

784
00:51:29,076 --> 00:51:36,197
everyone should buy one, if not five of these devices. So some people have a different view

785
00:51:36,197 --> 00:51:42,516
that the future of Bitcoin is not one where 8 billion people are buying devices, but instead,

786
00:51:42,516 --> 00:51:49,557
it's cheaper and easier and that Bitcoin should orient itself towards developing better software

787
00:51:49,557 --> 00:51:55,956
for phones and laptops than having everyone buy a device. So again, I don't want to put

788
00:51:55,956 --> 00:52:02,437
words in Paul's mouth or in JW's mouth about their views on that. But it does seem to me like

789
00:52:03,156 --> 00:52:07,317
if they had debated that topic, they would have been agreeing. They would have been on the same

790
00:52:07,317 --> 00:52:12,917
side of the debate, I think, if I'm not mistaken. Again, if I'm wrong about that, I apologize

791
00:52:12,917 --> 00:52:18,757
for assuming things like that. Another interesting commonality among thinkers across Bitcoin's

792
00:52:18,757 --> 00:52:26,596
intellectual kind of landscape is like Luke Dashjr., awesome thinker. He has a view on the value

793
00:52:26,596 --> 00:52:32,036
of shrinking the block size. And he has said in tweets and comments that it could be, again,

794
00:52:32,036 --> 00:52:37,557
this is like my paraphrasing, that I think that he views that it would be perhaps quite beneficial

795
00:52:37,557 --> 00:52:42,357
for Bitcoin to have a smaller block size than it does today. This is something Paul has tweeted

796
00:52:42,357 --> 00:52:48,437
about explicitly. He has said Bitcoin's block size must shrink. So I have found it very interesting to

797
00:52:48,437 --> 00:52:53,237
spot among the Bitcoin thinkers, whether they are in favor of drivechain or not,

798
00:52:54,117 --> 00:53:00,437
the ways that they agree on other topics, like just to summarize, like with Luke and Paul,

799
00:53:00,437 --> 00:53:03,716
they both like smaller block size, even though Luke isn't a drive chainer.

800
00:53:04,757 --> 00:53:12,197
Although he also said to me in the drivechain space two weeks ago that he, I don't want to

801
00:53:12,197 --> 00:53:17,557
misquote him, but he seemed to say he's not for it or against it. He's kind of neutral,

802
00:53:17,797 --> 00:53:23,156
he's kind of like, he's like, it's okay. Either way, he doesn't have a strong view,

803
00:53:23,156 --> 00:53:28,997
which I totally respect. Ruben Somsen, very sophisticated person, also doesn't have a strong

804
00:53:29,636 --> 00:53:34,677
view either way. Some people are kind of neutral on these topics because they're so complicated.

805
00:53:34,677 --> 00:53:39,156
I respect their neutrality. Not everyone has to be like a fanboy like me.

806
00:53:40,276 --> 00:53:44,356
But I just think it's so cool when thinkers who disagree on one thing agree on another,

807
00:53:44,356 --> 00:53:49,077
especially if that thing they agree on is like a minority view, like shrinking the block size.

808
00:53:49,077 --> 00:53:54,756
Paul Sztorc and Luke Dashjr. both like that idea. And then again, not being a big fan of

809
00:53:56,197 --> 00:54:01,876
cold wallets, devices commercially made, I think that's a JW Weatherman view. And I think it's

810
00:54:01,876 --> 00:54:07,156
also a Paul Sztorc view. They're both not big fans of those products. So I think it's very

811
00:54:07,156 --> 00:54:12,276
interesting how, while they don't agree on drivechain, among those three thinkers, they have like

812
00:54:12,276 --> 00:54:18,996
commonly held views on other things. And those views aren't very popular. Most Bitcoiners aren't

813
00:54:18,996 --> 00:54:24,197
saying let's shrink the block size today. So these are minority views that Luke and Paul agree on.

814
00:54:24,197 --> 00:54:30,756
And then again, with the wallets, I think JW and Paul agree on that minority view. So I find that

815
00:54:30,756 --> 00:54:39,717
very interesting. And I wish that in that debate between Paul and JW, I wish they had touched on

816
00:54:39,717 --> 00:54:45,477
that more. Because it's just so unfortunate when these great thinkers have like an adversarial

817
00:54:45,477 --> 00:54:52,197
conversation in some debate. Like why do that? Why not just like have a more collaborative discourse?

818
00:54:52,756 --> 00:54:56,837
Like it may just be my nature. Like I don't like conflict. I don't like it when people are like

819
00:54:57,396 --> 00:55:02,756
arguing and like, you know, calling each other intellectually dishonest and stuff like that.

820
00:55:02,756 --> 00:55:07,797
It's so much better when people can come to the table and be like, let's talk about what you think

821
00:55:08,597 --> 00:55:13,477
and what I think and try to fit everything together in a very scientific, academic way,

822
00:55:14,197 --> 00:55:18,756
you know, on the same team. Because that's what's going to promote the most understanding.

823
00:55:19,876 --> 00:55:24,597
So I really, I'm very hopeful that Bitcoin can improve because right now it feels like there's

824
00:55:24,597 --> 00:55:33,396
been kind of this, this like kind of trend toward toxicity and stuff like that, that to me personally

825
00:55:33,396 --> 00:55:39,236
is kind of a newcomer to the space. Like I've only been obsessed with crypto for about a little

826
00:55:39,236 --> 00:55:45,156
over like a year, year and a half, two years. And like the whole toxic thing, it feels like,

827
00:55:45,876 --> 00:55:50,116
I feel like it's kind of a result of the lack of adoption of drivechain. Because if we had

828
00:55:50,116 --> 00:55:54,917
had drivechain years ago, possibly a lot of altcoin development could have been occurring

829
00:55:54,917 --> 00:55:59,876
on Bitcoin. And therefore there would have been far few people to like yell about, right? Because

830
00:55:59,876 --> 00:56:06,276
they would have been Bitcoiners. So instead of like denying the validity of these protocols that

831
00:56:06,276 --> 00:56:11,557
have, in addition to their monetary issuance, interesting technology, those technologies

832
00:56:11,557 --> 00:56:17,957
would have been built onto Bitcoin. There wouldn't have been the competition going on between Bitcoin

833
00:56:17,957 --> 00:56:24,036
and those altcoins. Bitcoin and altcoins compete existentially for monetary premium. And the result

834
00:56:24,036 --> 00:56:31,797
of that protocol competition is the adversarial rhetoric. So it's kind of like battling religions,

835
00:56:31,797 --> 00:56:35,797
they're, they're incommensurable, right? You're never going to have a merger between like

836
00:56:36,328 --> 00:56:40,968
you know, let's just say Judaism and Islam, right? They're not going to merge. So there's like a,

837
00:56:40,968 --> 00:56:46,728
there's kind of like a competition there, right? Like a zero sum thing of like competing.

838
00:56:46,728 --> 00:56:50,808
And it's unfortunate in the protocol space when all the development could have been just built on

839
00:56:50,808 --> 00:56:56,168
Bitcoin. Maybe if we'd had trustless sidechains, we could have maybe just had all the development

840
00:56:56,168 --> 00:57:01,528
on Bitcoin and dominance could have been like a hundred percent Bitcoin and Ethereum could have

841
00:57:01,528 --> 00:57:06,967
been like a sidechain of Bitcoin and it just would have been so great. Everyone would have

842
00:57:06,967 --> 00:57:11,687
gotten along. Is that nuts? Maybe that's just ridiculous. They've been just, they've been just

843
00:57:11,687 --> 00:57:18,408
like a sort of a dreamer, everyone being friends and none of this like competition and toxicity

844
00:57:18,408 --> 00:57:24,007
stuff because it's just so embarrassing when there's people saying like the altcoins are

845
00:57:24,007 --> 00:57:29,128
completely a scam because I don't think that's correct, right? It's like denying reality.

846
00:57:29,687 --> 00:57:36,168
There is some obviously legitimate technology on altcoins and the reason why it's on altcoins

847
00:57:36,168 --> 00:57:42,088
is because it's not easy or it's impossible to put those technologies on Bitcoin in a manner

848
00:57:42,088 --> 00:57:47,687
that is arguably peer-to-peer. So with Drivechain, we have peer-to-peer sidechains

849
00:57:49,367 --> 00:57:54,967
made possible. Right now, all the sidechains are federated. With Drivechain, you get a

850
00:57:54,967 --> 00:58:01,528
peer-to-peer two-way peg, miner controlled two-way peg. Bitcoin is peer-to-peer. Therefore,

851
00:58:01,528 --> 00:58:07,448
Bitcoin mining is peer-to-peer. Therefore, a miner controlled peg is peer-to-peer.

852
00:58:07,448 --> 00:58:12,967
So those are the benefits I see to the narrative as well as the underlying technology.

853
00:58:14,647 --> 00:58:19,208
So I think a lot of altcoins could have been built on Bitcoin. Is it so crazy to say, I mean,

854
00:58:19,208 --> 00:58:25,047
just read the first page of the Ethereum white paper. The whole first page is about like the

855
00:58:25,047 --> 00:58:31,448
shortcomings of Bitcoin for platforming technology. Vitalik just walks you through like different

856
00:58:31,448 --> 00:58:37,208
projects that try to expand on Bitcoin's extensibility and their limitations that

857
00:58:37,208 --> 00:58:43,927
they encountered. So the whole raison d'etre of Ethereum was that it was impossible or difficult

858
00:58:43,927 --> 00:58:51,367
to build it on Bitcoin. But if Drivechain had been invented early enough and adopted early enough,

859
00:58:52,007 --> 00:58:58,248
then even if those altcoins had been created, they wouldn't have benefited from the availability of

860
00:58:58,248 --> 00:59:05,048
the rationale that building on Bitcoin is hard or impossible. They would have had to explain their

861
00:59:05,048 --> 00:59:10,647
issuance, their money creation, their seniorage some other way. So Bitcoin would have rugged

862
00:59:10,647 --> 00:59:15,528
from these founders their rationale. So there would have been less altcoining, I think,

863
00:59:16,168 --> 00:59:21,448
maybe much less if Drivechain had been adopted. And as soon as Drivechain is adopted, if it ever is,

864
00:59:21,448 --> 00:59:27,367
as soon as it's adopted, nobody will be able to say it's hard to build on Bitcoin. I think it'll

865
00:59:27,367 --> 00:59:32,808
be much harder to make that claim. And in this space, narratives are very important.

866
00:59:32,808 --> 00:59:40,168
What do you think of that? Is that a compelling story or is that just a

867
00:59:43,367 --> 00:59:44,888
kind of a biased one?

868
00:59:44,888 --> 00:59:47,367
Time to bring the shitcoins to Bitcoin, Henry.

869
00:59:52,567 --> 00:59:55,767
The whole idea of shitcoin, I just don't really buy because like,

870
00:59:56,727 --> 01:00:05,207
let's say 1% of all altcoins are legitimate. Well, then if the definition of shitcoin is

871
01:00:05,207 --> 01:00:12,487
any token other than Bitcoin, the definition is wrong to have a negative

872
01:00:16,007 --> 01:00:23,767
word attached to it. I don't think it's right to say they're all shitcoins if 1% of them are not.

873
01:00:26,487 --> 01:00:32,647
And just to review, the valid altcoin technologies out there include big blocks,

874
01:00:33,448 --> 01:00:40,088
include ring signature privacy technology, include greater Turing completeness technology,

875
01:00:40,808 --> 01:00:49,528
include peer-to-peer Oracle technology. Those are just some of them. Satoshi himself

876
01:00:50,168 --> 01:00:57,927
countenanced BitDNS explicitly, which is a blockchain protocol for DNS.

877
01:00:58,887 --> 01:01:07,047
So since August of 2010, we had the creator of Bitcoin saying that BitDNS was fine and good

878
01:01:07,688 --> 01:01:13,047
and that it should be a merged mined blockchain with Bitcoin and that all the networks in the

879
01:01:13,047 --> 01:01:20,088
world should be like that. So the creator of Bitcoin felt, I mean, I know this is an appeal

880
01:01:20,088 --> 01:01:24,487
to authority, right? This is an appeal to authority, but the creator, for what it's worth,

881
01:01:24,487 --> 01:01:32,647
if it's worth anything, Satoshi fucking Nakamoto wanted there to be many blockchains that all

882
01:01:33,367 --> 01:01:37,288
are merge-mined with Bitcoin. He never said Bitcoin should be the only one.

883
01:01:38,088 --> 01:01:42,808
He was a builder. He was an innovator. He was an experimenter. He was a developer.

884
01:01:43,848 --> 01:01:51,848
He wasn't a toxic maximalist. Bitcoin has lost its way, if I may presume to say so,

885
01:01:51,848 --> 01:01:58,327
and it would be great if the narratives changed. So that's one of the major headwinds for drive

886
01:01:58,327 --> 01:02:03,927
chain, Teddy, is the notion that, well, it brings shitcoins to Bitcoin. What it does

887
01:02:04,568 --> 01:02:09,688
is precisely what Adam Back described, which is, let me find the tweet to put up.

888
01:02:10,568 --> 01:02:17,767
It's like the best tweet ever. It's like five words. It's just so pithy and effective.

889
01:02:17,767 --> 01:02:20,487
Let me find it. Here it is.

890
01:02:24,887 --> 01:02:27,767
There it is. I put it in the nest. It'll show up in a second for all of you.

891
01:02:28,327 --> 01:02:34,487
Adam Back wrote just recently in a thread about Layer 2's drivechain and Blockstream's

892
01:02:34,487 --> 01:02:42,008
liquid technology. He wrote, innovation maximalist altcoin seniorage critic.

893
01:02:42,968 --> 01:02:50,647
What he means there is very resonant. His meaning there is very resonant with the drivechain view,

894
01:02:51,447 --> 01:02:58,167
which is that what drivechain enables is the quality of Bitcoin to change while the

895
01:02:58,167 --> 01:03:04,887
quantity remains the same. So preserving Bitcoin's monetary policy while enabling

896
01:03:04,887 --> 01:03:11,688
greater extensibility, while enabling greater variety of software, while enabling more building

897
01:03:11,688 --> 01:03:18,487
and development and experimentation. So I think the essence of a shitcoin, Teddy,

898
01:03:19,047 --> 01:03:24,568
is that it involves issuance. This is an idea from Gavin Andresen long ago

899
01:03:25,447 --> 01:03:33,367
that he once wrote on Bitcoin Talk or maybe SourceForge. He once wrote, every altcoin is a

900
01:03:33,367 --> 01:03:40,647
way around the 21 million limit of Bitcoin. So he was lamenting the fact that when altcoiners

901
01:03:40,647 --> 01:03:47,367
build an altcoin, they're creating more tokens, which increases the quantity of money out there.

902
01:03:47,367 --> 01:03:55,288
But the problem with that view is that if the altcoin is created because of a limit on

903
01:03:55,288 --> 01:04:02,248
Bitcoin's extensibility due to a lack of drivechain, then the altcoin has a rationale that's

904
01:04:02,248 --> 01:04:07,128
legitimate. They wanted to build something, they couldn't build it on Bitcoin, so they made a new

905
01:04:07,128 --> 01:04:13,607
token. That's exactly what Vitalik wrote in the Ethereum white paper. He wrote the word freedom.

906
01:04:13,607 --> 01:04:18,008
He was like, doing an independent blockchain gives you the freedom to do whatever you want.

907
01:04:21,447 --> 01:04:25,927
Yeah, let me just finish. He wouldn't have been able to write that had drivechain been created.

908
01:04:25,927 --> 01:04:31,528
He would have had to contend with the fact that Ethereum, in the way it was launched,

909
01:04:31,528 --> 01:04:37,607
could have been launched as a drivechain if drivechain had been available at that time.

910
01:04:37,607 --> 01:04:42,728
So what drivechain would do if adopted today is for all time in the future,

911
01:04:42,728 --> 01:04:47,688
it would make altcoin founders much more likely to build on Bitcoin. And if they were to build on

912
01:04:47,688 --> 01:04:55,128
an altcoin, a new altcoin, they would have less justification for that decision. It would be more

913
01:04:55,128 --> 01:05:00,088
starkly laid bare that they were doing it for purposes of reaping the seniorage profits of

914
01:05:00,088 --> 01:05:05,207
monetary issuance, rather than doing something that's technologically necessary.

915
01:05:07,688 --> 01:05:09,368
HeroGamer, please chime in. Thank you.

916
01:05:10,327 --> 01:05:18,488
Yeah, so in Ethereum's case, they've made a shitcoin and they made an altcoin and they're

917
01:05:18,488 --> 01:05:24,968
building on a completely separate blockchain and benefiting their ecosystem.

918
01:05:27,368 --> 01:05:34,887
But I feel like, because I come from a Stacks playground world, but I'm a Bitcoiner first,

919
01:05:35,447 --> 01:05:43,368
obviously. But Stacks is doing something semi-altcoin, shitcoinary, if you like,

920
01:05:44,168 --> 01:05:55,447
because although it has an altcoin and it has a pre-mine, but at its core, it's to benefit Bitcoin

921
01:05:55,447 --> 01:06:03,928
and it's to further Bitcoin. It's not to further its own token, but its own token is capable of

922
01:06:04,807 --> 01:06:13,127
speculation. But it's not to benefit an Ethereum blockchain. It's not to benefit

923
01:06:13,127 --> 01:06:24,088
a Solana ecosystem. It is to benefit Bitcoin because it has now funding to fund builders

924
01:06:24,728 --> 01:06:31,767
to build around Bitcoin. I wouldn't want to say on Bitcoin because some people get triggered.

925
01:06:32,408 --> 01:06:42,247
Let's just say proximity of Bitcoin. So at its core, it's not launching for the sake of launching

926
01:06:42,247 --> 01:06:49,447
and to benefit other shitcoins. It's to benefit the Bitcoin. And without Bitcoin, Stacks would

927
01:06:49,447 --> 01:07:01,528
be nothing. So how do you reconcile with that? I do not believe that Stacks is economically

928
01:07:01,528 --> 01:07:10,728
aligned with Bitcoin. Stacks is not a merged mined sidechain or altcoin of Bitcoin. It is

929
01:07:10,728 --> 01:07:15,207
not a merged mined sidechain of Bitcoin and it's not a merged mined altcoin of Bitcoin.

930
01:07:17,127 --> 01:07:22,488
So Namecoin, you know, BitDNS has been a merged mined altcoin.

931
01:07:23,447 --> 01:07:31,447
Rootstock RSK is a merged mined sidechain. Stacks is neither of those. There is no merged mining

932
01:07:31,447 --> 01:07:38,968
of Bitcoin on Stacks. This means that transaction fees on Stacks are not paid to Bitcoin miners.

933
01:07:40,488 --> 01:07:44,647
So that's one way in which Stacks is not economically aligned with Bitcoin.

934
01:07:45,608 --> 01:07:48,168
Another way that Stacks is not economically aligned

935
01:07:49,288 --> 01:07:59,447
with Bitcoin is that Stacks introduces a speculative token, STX.

936
01:08:02,887 --> 01:08:11,127
In the case of Rootstock, the primary native token of Rootstock is a synthetic Bitcoin.

937
01:08:11,848 --> 01:08:22,327
So when people use Rootstock, the main token that's involved is a synthetic Bitcoin that,

938
01:08:22,327 --> 01:08:27,928
you know, its issuance is generated through the locking up of Bitcoin in a federated two-way peg.

939
01:08:29,368 --> 01:08:34,247
This creates demand and value for Bitcoin. It creates value accrual to Bitcoin when people

940
01:08:34,247 --> 01:08:43,928
demand the Rootstock primary native token, which is RBTC. Just like on Liquid, where the primary

941
01:08:43,928 --> 01:08:50,968
native token is LBTC. The only way to make more of that is to send more Bitcoin into the two-way peg.

942
01:08:51,767 --> 01:08:56,647
In other words, when the primary token of a blockchain is a synthetic Bitcoin,

943
01:08:57,608 --> 01:09:06,007
demand for that synthetic Bitcoin is demand for, is indirectly demand for Bitcoin itself

944
01:09:06,007 --> 01:09:11,048
on layer one. And this creates economic alignment of the protocols.

945
01:09:11,608 --> 01:09:19,687
So what I like to see in a protocol that is claiming to be economically oriented with Bitcoin

946
01:09:19,687 --> 01:09:26,807
harmoniously is I like to see their primary native token be a synthetic Bitcoin like Liquid

947
01:09:26,807 --> 01:09:35,288
Bitcoin or RBTC. And I like to see merged mining as we see on RSK. RSK is so economically aligned

948
01:09:35,288 --> 01:09:41,368
with Bitcoin that they wrote into the white paper of Rootstock RSK. They wrote into their

949
01:09:41,368 --> 01:09:46,728
original white paper that they will become a drivechain once drivechain is possible.

950
01:09:47,608 --> 01:09:48,247
Yeah.

951
01:09:48,247 --> 01:09:52,567
Let me just finish one more thing with Stacks. I would like to see from Stacks,

952
01:09:53,127 --> 01:09:58,327
which I think is a project run by very smart, cool people. I would like to see from Stacks

953
01:09:59,528 --> 01:10:07,687
a statement that they're going to eliminate STX token from the ecosystem entirely and rely

954
01:10:08,408 --> 01:10:18,168
entirely on SBTC, which they advertise as a trustless two way peg. So if they have this

955
01:10:19,687 --> 01:10:26,007
synthetic Bitcoin SBTC that they're building, then I would like to see them eliminate the need for

956
01:10:27,048 --> 01:10:31,928
the STX token, right? Because it's not great to have a speculative token

957
01:10:32,968 --> 01:10:36,807
on the blockchain. It'd be better. And also they should adopt merged mining,

958
01:10:36,807 --> 01:10:40,088
in my view. It would be great to see them do that. That way,

959
01:10:40,088 --> 01:10:42,327
all the transaction fees can be paid to Bitcoin.

960
01:10:46,007 --> 01:10:55,127
Yeah, I think obviously that's the most idealistic world that we want to aim for, right?

961
01:10:56,088 --> 01:11:07,928
However, I think there's practical intermediate steps to get there. I don't know if we will ever

962
01:11:07,928 --> 01:11:18,887
get there like you wish that we will get there. It's just SBTC. But what I can say right now,

963
01:11:18,968 --> 01:11:23,447
because you're saying, just going back to some of your earlier points, that

964
01:11:24,728 --> 01:11:32,007
you're saying the gas fee doesn't benefit the Bitcoin. It's somewhat true, but somewhat not

965
01:11:32,007 --> 01:11:45,928
true either, because every transaction is set up in Bitcoin. If we do not have Stacks transaction

966
01:11:45,928 --> 01:11:55,368
set into Bitcoin, we will not generate Bitcoin transaction for every block. But currently,

967
01:11:55,928 --> 01:12:05,687
it is contributing to Bitcoin on the base layer in terms of fee because every block of Stacks

968
01:12:06,887 --> 01:12:12,647
is settling into Bitcoin, generating a Bitcoin transaction. Every mining transaction

969
01:12:13,608 --> 01:12:24,247
that the miners bid for Stacks, because miners use their BTC and bid for the Stacks token,

970
01:12:25,127 --> 01:12:31,767
every transaction from the miners is actually a Bitcoin transaction. So you have two Bitcoin

971
01:12:31,767 --> 01:12:38,408
transactions going on. The miners sending Bitcoin transaction to bid, and you have

972
01:12:38,968 --> 01:12:49,528
the transaction settlement every block as a Bitcoin transaction. So I would somewhat agree

973
01:12:49,528 --> 01:12:57,848
with you that not the gas fee is benefiting the Bitcoin, but at least from a settlement

974
01:12:57,848 --> 01:13:05,528
perspective, from the mining and every Stacks block, it is sending a Bitcoin transaction.

975
01:13:05,528 --> 01:13:12,488
Bitcoin transaction therefore has some contribution towards the gas on the Bitcoin layer.

976
01:13:13,928 --> 01:13:18,488
But in terms of the speculative token, yeah, that's something like,

977
01:13:20,247 --> 01:13:26,007
you know, it's a trade-off, right? You don't want the token? Fine. Go for merge mining.

978
01:13:26,567 --> 01:13:31,767
You don't have the pre-mined token, but where are you going to attract the people to come together

979
01:13:31,767 --> 01:13:36,488
and secure your security? Where is that going to come from?

980
01:13:37,127 --> 01:13:45,848
It should come from the utility of the protocol. It shouldn't come from the speculative mania

981
01:13:46,488 --> 01:13:48,008
of people buying the token.

982
01:13:48,008 --> 01:13:52,807
How are you going to attract the builders? You need some funds, right? You're not just

983
01:13:52,807 --> 01:13:59,207
going to launch a chain and expect people to come to you because they're building cool stuff.

984
01:14:00,167 --> 01:14:10,088
Yes, you can. In theory, that might be the best practice, so to speak.

985
01:14:10,088 --> 01:14:14,407
I mean, that's how Bitcoin is, right? There is no ICO for Bitcoin. It's the most successful

986
01:14:14,407 --> 01:14:15,287
blockchain.

987
01:14:15,287 --> 01:14:19,527
Yeah, but people come there to build on Bitcoin because there's incentive to

988
01:14:20,088 --> 01:14:27,527
build on Bitcoin. Because there's a speculative token. Let's just take a speculative token

989
01:14:27,608 --> 01:14:38,327
out of Bitcoin. Are you saying that builders would come to Bitcoin without the speculation

990
01:14:38,327 --> 01:14:39,368
of the Bitcoin price?

991
01:14:41,848 --> 01:14:46,008
I don't quite follow. I didn't really follow anything you said in the last 10 minutes,

992
01:14:46,008 --> 01:14:52,567
but I do appreciate you sharing your view. I think it's very cool, everything you said,

993
01:14:52,567 --> 01:14:57,287
and maybe it's just because we've been going on for an hour and a half now.

994
01:14:58,888 --> 01:15:00,807
Yeah, sorry, I came in at the end.

995
01:15:01,447 --> 01:15:05,927
No problem. It's great to have you here. I think that Stacks, once again, let me just

996
01:15:05,927 --> 01:15:14,807
say, I'm not a fan of the project, but I do think everyone in the community of Stacks is cool.

997
01:15:15,608 --> 01:15:20,488
And I think I've heard Muneeb talk a lot on Twitter spaces. I think he's cool, very smart.

998
01:15:21,447 --> 01:15:28,888
I have read every tweet he's ever written about drivechain, drivechains, BIP300,

999
01:15:29,848 --> 01:15:34,648
and sidechain or sidechains. So I've done that search for those five or six words

1000
01:15:36,008 --> 01:15:41,608
for hundreds of people, and he's one of them. And I remember what he wrote. He has described

1001
01:15:42,248 --> 01:15:47,927
drivechain very carefully in terms of, he has never said he's against it.

1002
01:15:48,888 --> 01:15:55,447
He has characterized it as a theoretical possibility for Bitcoin. I think he's very

1003
01:15:55,447 --> 01:16:02,488
smart. And he knows, I think, in my less, I mean, he's more technical than I am by a thousand times,

1004
01:16:03,047 --> 01:16:08,488
but I do have a suspicion that he knows that if drivechain were adopted tomorrow,

1005
01:16:08,488 --> 01:16:17,447
Stacks token would not be a good investment. So I do think he has arguably an incentive

1006
01:16:17,447 --> 01:16:25,768
to not emphatically call for drivechainization of Bitcoin, because it does conflict with the

1007
01:16:25,768 --> 01:16:36,248
economics of his project. And that's my rough kind of understanding of what's going on in Stacks.

1008
01:16:36,248 --> 01:16:39,287
And I just think that Rootstock, to their credit,

1009
01:16:39,485 --> 01:16:44,485
is aligned with BIP300% in the sense that their merge-mined,

1010
01:16:44,805 --> 01:16:47,645
their main native token is a synthetic Bitcoin.

1011
01:16:47,645 --> 01:16:49,765
That is exactly the drivechain vision.

1012
01:16:50,645 --> 01:16:53,805
And they can't wait to have their federation disband

1013
01:16:53,805 --> 01:16:57,284
and be a miner-controlled peg.

1014
01:16:57,284 --> 01:16:59,925
And they can't wait to have their mining

1015
01:16:59,925 --> 01:17:01,685
be blind merge mining.

1016
01:17:01,685 --> 01:17:04,624
In regular, ordinary merge mining,

1017
01:17:04,624 --> 01:17:09,624
the miner is paid in the token of the sidechain.

1018
01:17:11,065 --> 01:17:14,825
In blind merge mining, BIP301,

1019
01:17:14,825 --> 01:17:17,744
the miners are paid in Bitcoin layer one.

1020
01:17:17,744 --> 01:17:20,104
So it's a cooler arrangement.

1021
01:17:20,104 --> 01:17:25,065
And I think it's cool that they have that view.

1022
01:17:25,065 --> 01:17:26,104
And I feel like with Stacks,

1023
01:17:26,104 --> 01:17:30,025
there's kind of like a not so clear economic alignment

1024
01:17:30,025 --> 01:17:31,825
between Stacks and Bitcoin.

1025
01:17:31,825 --> 01:17:33,624
So there's kind of like,

1026
01:17:33,624 --> 01:17:36,145
what I'm sensing from Munib is like,

1027
01:17:36,145 --> 01:17:39,145
he knows that drivechain would be good for Bitcoin,

1028
01:17:39,145 --> 01:17:42,225
but I would just like to see him tweet

1029
01:17:42,225 --> 01:17:45,544
that he's unambiguously in favor of it.

1030
01:17:45,544 --> 01:17:47,465
And I would also like to hear him talk about

1031
01:17:47,465 --> 01:17:51,165
what would happen to Stacks, STX token,

1032
01:17:51,165 --> 01:17:52,624
if drivechain were adopted.

1033
01:17:52,624 --> 01:17:55,925
Does he think Stacks would appreciate or depreciate?

1034
01:17:55,925 --> 01:17:59,705
See, I feel that every single altcoin

1035
01:17:59,705 --> 01:18:02,105
is threatened by drivechain.

1036
01:18:02,105 --> 01:18:05,705
Every single one, Ethereum, Monero,

1037
01:18:06,584 --> 01:18:09,665
all of these goods, economic goods,

1038
01:18:09,665 --> 01:18:12,145
that is these protocol tokens,

1039
01:18:12,145 --> 01:18:15,224
would devalue to zero in the long run

1040
01:18:15,224 --> 01:18:17,345
as a result of drivechainization.

1041
01:18:18,904 --> 01:18:20,584
All of the software on these tokens,

1042
01:18:20,584 --> 01:18:23,705
to the extent the software has value to anyone,

1043
01:18:23,705 --> 01:18:26,444
would potentially be cloned into drivechains.

1044
01:18:27,324 --> 01:18:28,425
So I think in the future,

1045
01:18:28,425 --> 01:18:31,705
what we'll see is that there are approximately

1046
01:18:31,705 --> 01:18:36,705
10 or 20 legitimate altcoins in terms of their technology.

1047
01:18:37,305 --> 01:18:40,205
And those tokens would go to zero,

1048
01:18:40,205 --> 01:18:43,824
absolute real zero value.

1049
01:18:43,824 --> 01:18:46,224
But the technology would live on,

1050
01:18:46,224 --> 01:18:48,145
on Bitcoin in a drivechain.

1051
01:18:48,145 --> 01:18:52,305
So you would see the technology of Monero and Zcash.

1052
01:18:52,305 --> 01:18:57,305
You would see the technology of large block Bitcoin clones.

1053
01:18:57,425 --> 01:18:59,544
You would see the technology of Ethereum

1054
01:18:59,544 --> 01:19:02,544
with its greater Turing completeness than Bitcoin.

1055
01:19:02,544 --> 01:19:05,065
And you'd see the technology of things like Chainlink

1056
01:19:05,065 --> 01:19:06,744
or Hivemind.

1057
01:19:06,744 --> 01:19:10,585
So there'd be a bunch of drivechains out there,

1058
01:19:10,585 --> 01:19:11,785
maybe 10 or 20.

1059
01:19:13,005 --> 01:19:16,024
And that's like less than 1% of all altcoins.

1060
01:19:16,024 --> 01:19:18,904
But I don't think you'd see the technology of STX.

1061
01:19:18,904 --> 01:19:21,845
I don't think there's stuff that's special going on there

1062
01:19:21,845 --> 01:19:23,585
that would be cloned in.

1063
01:19:23,585 --> 01:19:24,425
Maybe I'm wrong.

1064
01:19:25,705 --> 01:19:26,684
You can respond to that,

1065
01:19:27,124 --> 01:19:28,764
whether you think there'd be like a STX drivechain.

1066
01:19:28,764 --> 01:19:30,445
But I've never seen Muneeb talk about it

1067
01:19:30,445 --> 01:19:33,285
because I think he knows that if he boosts drivechain,

1068
01:19:33,285 --> 01:19:37,365
then it might happen because he's a big voice in the space

1069
01:19:37,365 --> 01:19:38,205
like many others.

1070
01:19:38,205 --> 01:19:40,884
And I think if he accelerates drivechain,

1071
01:19:40,884 --> 01:19:44,524
it's not great for the STX value of that altcoin.

1072
01:19:44,524 --> 01:19:47,365
That his community has made, what,

1073
01:19:47,365 --> 01:19:49,044
hundreds of millions of dollars from that,

1074
01:19:49,044 --> 01:19:50,264
which is good for them.

1075
01:19:50,264 --> 01:19:53,164
But I'm not sure that it's economically aligned

1076
01:19:53,164 --> 01:19:54,005
with Bitcoin.

1077
01:19:54,124 --> 01:19:54,964
Right?

1078
01:19:54,964 --> 01:19:56,244
I mean, if a person has $1,

1079
01:19:56,244 --> 01:19:58,485
they can either put it in STX or Bitcoin.

1080
01:19:58,485 --> 01:19:59,404
They can't do both.

1081
01:19:59,404 --> 01:20:00,925
You can't have your cake and eat it too.

1082
01:20:00,925 --> 01:20:04,085
Every single token competes existentially

1083
01:20:04,085 --> 01:20:06,845
for monetary premium against Bitcoin.

1084
01:20:06,845 --> 01:20:08,845
So what drivechain aims to do

1085
01:20:08,845 --> 01:20:11,585
is devalue all of those tokens to zero,

1086
01:20:13,044 --> 01:20:14,524
including STX.

1087
01:20:14,524 --> 01:20:16,805
That's like my honest take on it.

1088
01:20:16,805 --> 01:20:18,845
But again, I think like Stacks people are cool.

1089
01:20:18,845 --> 01:20:21,904
Their Twitter spaces are very intelligent and friendly.

1090
01:20:22,865 --> 01:20:24,785
I just think that the project

1091
01:20:24,785 --> 01:20:28,145
is not as economically aligned with Bitcoin as RSK.

1092
01:20:29,024 --> 01:20:32,425
RSK is kind of like a pure sidechain like Liquid.

1093
01:20:32,425 --> 01:20:35,464
Liquid is fully aligned with Bitcoin

1094
01:20:35,464 --> 01:20:39,565
in the sense that their token is a synthetic Bitcoin.

1095
01:20:39,565 --> 01:20:41,705
You can't, it wasn't minted in an ICO.

1096
01:20:43,624 --> 01:20:44,544
Go ahead, Hero Gamer.

1097
01:20:44,544 --> 01:20:46,404
I'll give you the last word on this little debate.

1098
01:20:46,404 --> 01:20:48,065
I appreciate you being here.

1099
01:20:48,065 --> 01:20:49,264
Yeah, so-

1100
01:20:49,264 --> 01:20:50,225
And then we'll go to Homer.

1101
01:20:50,264 --> 01:20:53,384
This is a drivechain space that I don't know,

1102
01:20:53,384 --> 01:20:56,745
I do not want to make it about Stacks at all.

1103
01:20:56,745 --> 01:21:01,585
So the last word and question is more like,

1104
01:21:04,544 --> 01:21:06,104
I'm a Bitcoiner first.

1105
01:21:07,185 --> 01:21:09,025
I want Bitcoin to succeed

1106
01:21:10,025 --> 01:21:13,384
through whichever chain that may be,

1107
01:21:14,264 --> 01:21:16,625
or multiple chain that may be.

1108
01:21:17,625 --> 01:21:20,865
If drivechain proves to be the one,

1109
01:21:22,824 --> 01:21:24,305
I will sell my SDX

1110
01:21:25,544 --> 01:21:29,805
because Bitcoin at the end of the day needs to win.

1111
01:21:29,805 --> 01:21:33,104
And if Stacks is not the one to push it further

1112
01:21:33,104 --> 01:21:35,444
and it's not incentively aligned,

1113
01:21:37,865 --> 01:21:39,504
that's fine.

1114
01:21:39,504 --> 01:21:43,044
And I will just sell whatever I have.

1115
01:21:44,044 --> 01:21:47,525
So what I'm trying to say is,

1116
01:21:47,525 --> 01:21:51,485
I'd like to see more practical stuff from drivechain

1117
01:21:51,485 --> 01:21:56,485
to convince me that that is the solution to everything else,

1118
01:21:56,485 --> 01:21:58,245
to every other altcoin.

1119
01:21:58,245 --> 01:22:03,245
Then I'll be convinced that Stacks is not necessary

1120
01:22:03,324 --> 01:22:05,245
and it will go to zero.

1121
01:22:05,245 --> 01:22:09,284
But yet, I have yet to see something practical

1122
01:22:10,284 --> 01:22:15,284
or more tangible that I can see from drivechain

1123
01:22:15,324 --> 01:22:19,004
to make me believe that is the only,

1124
01:22:19,004 --> 01:22:22,645
that is the solution to everything else.

1125
01:22:22,645 --> 01:22:23,884
Yeah, I got it.

1126
01:22:23,884 --> 01:22:26,705
You've made your point very clear and well said.

1127
01:22:28,884 --> 01:22:33,284
Oh, we lost our speaker who was on stage, Homer Simpson.

1128
01:22:33,284 --> 01:22:36,485
He's a listener now, Homer Simp.

1129
01:22:36,525 --> 01:22:39,384
Well, you can come on back up, Homer, or we can wrap up.

1130
01:22:40,485 --> 01:22:41,525
I agree with you, Hiro.

1131
01:22:41,525 --> 01:22:44,645
I mean, we've got a BIP, two of them.

1132
01:22:44,645 --> 01:22:47,564
So you say they're not practically available.

1133
01:22:47,564 --> 01:22:49,844
Of course, they were upgrades for Bitcoin.

1134
01:22:49,844 --> 01:22:51,485
They haven't yet been adopted.

1135
01:22:51,485 --> 01:22:53,324
So as long as they're not adopted,

1136
01:22:53,324 --> 01:22:55,805
they're theoretical and exist in a testnet.

1137
01:22:55,805 --> 01:22:59,685
So I mean, it'd be great to have it be,

1138
01:22:59,685 --> 01:23:01,724
it's kind of like getting married, right?

1139
01:23:01,764 --> 01:23:05,205
Like, you can't feel what it's like

1140
01:23:05,205 --> 01:23:08,085
to be actually married while you're single.

1141
01:23:08,085 --> 01:23:10,685
So it's kind of like you're saying like,

1142
01:23:10,685 --> 01:23:13,245
you're thinking about marrying the girl

1143
01:23:13,245 --> 01:23:15,564
and you're wondering like, do I wanna be married?

1144
01:23:15,564 --> 01:23:16,884
Will I like it?

1145
01:23:16,884 --> 01:23:20,525
How will I know that I'm happy married?

1146
01:23:20,525 --> 01:23:24,965
Well, the only way to know for sure is to go fucking do it.

1147
01:23:24,965 --> 01:23:26,284
You have to go do it.

1148
01:23:26,284 --> 01:23:29,004
You have to just put a ring on it,

1149
01:23:29,004 --> 01:23:32,525
do the honeymoon, move in together, start arguing.

1150
01:23:32,525 --> 01:23:33,485
You hate each other.

1151
01:23:33,485 --> 01:23:36,365
And now you know that it wasn't a good idea,

1152
01:23:36,365 --> 01:23:39,564
but you won't know that for sure until you do it.

1153
01:23:39,564 --> 01:23:41,284
So that's what life is like.

1154
01:23:41,284 --> 01:23:44,604
You have to just plunge in and try things.

1155
01:23:45,525 --> 01:23:47,805
Now with Stacks, they-

1156
01:23:47,805 --> 01:23:50,604
Would you say the same analogy holds true for being gay?

1157
01:23:50,604 --> 01:23:53,405
Like you don't know if you're gay unless you've tried it?

1158
01:23:54,564 --> 01:23:56,164
No, Debbie.

1159
01:23:56,164 --> 01:23:59,324
I mean, you know, if you haven't tried it,

1160
01:23:59,324 --> 01:24:01,164
can you even be sure you're straight?

1161
01:24:02,485 --> 01:24:03,324
Yes.

1162
01:24:05,324 --> 01:24:06,164
You sure?

1163
01:24:07,525 --> 01:24:10,324
Yeah, like more than 100%, yeah.

1164
01:24:11,485 --> 01:24:14,365
Well, how could you logically be more than 100% sure?

1165
01:24:14,365 --> 01:24:17,444
Wouldn't that begin to be less than 100%?

1166
01:24:17,444 --> 01:24:20,444
Like you would have an absolute value.

1167
01:24:20,444 --> 01:24:22,844
Like if you went to 110% certainty,

1168
01:24:22,844 --> 01:24:25,844
I think mathematically that would equate to a 90% certainty.

1169
01:24:26,844 --> 01:24:29,884
Because you overshot, so you're no longer at 100%.

1170
01:24:29,884 --> 01:24:32,284
So then you're kind of like at 90%.

1171
01:24:32,284 --> 01:24:35,485
So you could be at 200% certainty,

1172
01:24:35,485 --> 01:24:38,645
which is really 0%, which is totally gay.

1173
01:24:38,645 --> 01:24:41,444
So I think you, you know, that's what's going on.

1174
01:24:43,324 --> 01:24:44,164
And that's fine.

1175
01:24:44,164 --> 01:24:45,444
I respect and tolerate that.

1176
01:24:45,444 --> 01:24:46,604
You can be how you are.

1177
01:24:46,604 --> 01:24:49,564
I happen to be married to a woman, very happily so.

1178
01:24:49,564 --> 01:24:51,125
We have multiple children,

1179
01:24:51,125 --> 01:24:55,125
and you know, it's great and fantastic.

1180
01:24:55,125 --> 01:24:56,564
Totally shakshi, yeah.

1181
01:24:56,564 --> 01:24:58,724
But you might be different.

1182
01:24:58,724 --> 01:25:01,444
And I appreciate, you know, your lifestyle choices,

1183
01:25:01,444 --> 01:25:03,764
and you can be however you wish to be.

1184
01:25:03,764 --> 01:25:04,604
And that's fine.

1185
01:25:05,884 --> 01:25:09,164
We're very tolerant here in the drive-dean community.

1186
01:25:09,164 --> 01:25:11,765
We don't discriminate based on race, sex,

1187
01:25:11,765 --> 01:25:16,765
national origin, ethnicity, personal preferences,

1188
01:25:17,485 --> 01:25:21,245
you know, whether you're a vegan, a vegetarian, carnivory.

1189
01:25:23,485 --> 01:25:24,325
It's all fine.

1190
01:25:26,125 --> 01:25:26,964
Yeah.

1191
01:25:32,404 --> 01:25:35,284
Well, anyone else have any questions?

1192
01:25:38,125 --> 01:25:39,885
This has been quite a conversation.

1193
01:25:41,245 --> 01:25:43,565
I guess we're wrapping up.

1194
01:25:43,565 --> 01:25:45,885
Teddy, it's just you and me now.

1195
01:25:45,885 --> 01:25:48,204
We've got Porkchop in the audience.

1196
01:25:48,204 --> 01:25:50,925
Let's see, Richard Ross in the audience.

1197
01:25:50,925 --> 01:25:52,044
Some familiar faces.

1198
01:25:52,044 --> 01:25:54,685
Toaster, new blocker era.

1199
01:25:55,245 --> 01:25:56,844
We've got these people who tweet about Drivechain,

1200
01:25:56,844 --> 01:25:59,565
some of our biggest fans and supporters.

1201
01:25:59,565 --> 01:26:03,524
I want you all to know that we have a new,

1202
01:26:03,524 --> 01:26:06,524
awesome Drivechain fan out there.

1203
01:26:06,524 --> 01:26:10,524
I recommend Mr. Finn Davidoff.

1204
01:26:10,524 --> 01:26:13,125
I just put in the nest one of his tweets.

1205
01:26:14,284 --> 01:26:15,125
Check it out.

1206
01:26:15,125 --> 01:26:16,044
He makes tweets.

1207
01:26:16,044 --> 01:26:19,925
Sometimes I'm in the tweets, as is the case today.

1208
01:26:21,164 --> 01:26:24,125
So we've got me here running a train.

1209
01:26:24,805 --> 01:26:26,005
Oh dear, what have I said?

1210
01:26:26,005 --> 01:26:27,604
Now that's gonna get,

1211
01:26:27,604 --> 01:26:32,404
it's gonna end up in Raphael's little audio clips.

1212
01:26:32,404 --> 01:26:36,844
But yeah, is that the intent of this meme?

1213
01:26:36,844 --> 01:26:38,445
Am I supposed to be doing that?

1214
01:26:40,325 --> 01:26:43,445
So what should we say?

1215
01:26:43,445 --> 01:26:45,964
Now in these spaces, should I just close the room

1216
01:26:45,964 --> 01:26:48,084
or should I talk for like 10 hours at a time

1217
01:26:48,084 --> 01:26:49,284
and just see what happens?

1218
01:26:49,284 --> 01:26:50,125
Like what, how should we?

1219
01:26:50,125 --> 01:26:53,044
I think 10 hours at a time probably best.

1220
01:26:53,044 --> 01:26:54,445
All right.

1221
01:26:55,204 --> 01:26:56,724
Well, let's see.

1222
01:26:56,724 --> 01:26:58,524
What can we say about Drivechain

1223
01:26:58,524 --> 01:27:01,245
that would somehow cause thousands of people

1224
01:27:01,245 --> 01:27:02,644
to come into this space?

1225
01:27:02,644 --> 01:27:03,844
Like what can I do?

1226
01:27:03,844 --> 01:27:08,485
What is the way to get attention in today's world?

1227
01:27:08,485 --> 01:27:12,485
What I want is for every Bitcoiner to be fully informed

1228
01:27:12,485 --> 01:27:17,485
and excited about the prospect of DriveChainization.

1229
01:27:17,485 --> 01:27:21,125
You know, this is all about Bitcoin dominance at 100%.

1230
01:27:21,164 --> 01:27:25,445
It's all about, oh, we got Hero Gamer, 21 BTC,

1231
01:27:25,445 --> 01:27:27,084
Stacks super fan.

1232
01:27:27,084 --> 01:27:28,844
He's back on the stage.

1233
01:27:28,844 --> 01:27:30,925
Welcome back, Hero Gamer.

1234
01:27:30,925 --> 01:27:34,404
You have so much cool stuff to say

1235
01:27:34,404 --> 01:27:36,164
that you left and then returned.

1236
01:27:36,164 --> 01:27:37,005
So that's cool.

1237
01:27:37,005 --> 01:27:40,284
I'm just trying to contribute towards ideas

1238
01:27:40,284 --> 01:27:42,325
of what you just said.

1239
01:27:42,325 --> 01:27:44,005
How can we get people here?

1240
01:27:45,724 --> 01:27:50,125
I think really funny memes will help.

1241
01:27:51,524 --> 01:27:55,445
I think that if you guys hired Hero and myself,

1242
01:27:55,445 --> 01:27:58,204
we'd come as a package, 900K per year.

1243
01:27:58,204 --> 01:27:59,805
I know it's pricey,

1244
01:27:59,805 --> 01:28:02,805
but we would definitely help blow up

1245
01:28:02,805 --> 01:28:04,325
the Drivechain community for you.

1246
01:28:04,325 --> 01:28:07,644
Henry, talk to your uppers and get back to us.

1247
01:28:10,084 --> 01:28:12,844
I will do that without a doubt.

1248
01:28:18,365 --> 01:28:20,644
I think that if Drivechain were adopted,

1249
01:28:21,125 --> 01:28:22,445
some of the coolest things that would happen

1250
01:28:22,445 --> 01:28:24,604
would be the actual Drivechains that are implemented.

1251
01:28:24,604 --> 01:28:27,365
Somebody once told me, don't sell the stadium,

1252
01:28:27,365 --> 01:28:30,565
sell the sports game, sell a football game.

1253
01:28:30,565 --> 01:28:34,084
So Drivechain is an architecture like a stadium,

1254
01:28:34,084 --> 01:28:36,204
but the cool thing that happens with Drivechain

1255
01:28:36,204 --> 01:28:39,805
isn't the architecture, it's the actual Drivechains,

1256
01:28:39,805 --> 01:28:44,325
the MergeMind peer-to-peer sidechains

1257
01:28:44,325 --> 01:28:47,125
that would happen as a result of Drivechain.

1258
01:28:47,164 --> 01:28:50,925
So some of those include HiveMind,

1259
01:28:50,925 --> 01:28:55,925
Thunder, BitAssets, BitNames,

1260
01:28:56,084 --> 01:28:59,964
EthSide, Zside, and others.

1261
01:29:00,844 --> 01:29:02,365
There would also be TeddySide.

1262
01:29:06,805 --> 01:29:10,084
Obviously, you're probably wondering, what is TeddySide?

1263
01:29:10,084 --> 01:29:14,565
TeddySide is a TeddyBitcoins-focused Drivechain

1264
01:29:14,604 --> 01:29:17,125
where people can have the full Teddy experience

1265
01:29:17,125 --> 01:29:18,765
in a Drivechain context.

1266
01:29:20,005 --> 01:29:22,245
And it's peer-to-peer in the sense that Teddy

1267
01:29:22,245 --> 01:29:24,204
is your peer in that Drivechain.

1268
01:29:24,204 --> 01:29:26,565
And what happens is you go into the Drivechain,

1269
01:29:26,565 --> 01:29:30,584
you peg in, and then Teddy pegs you, and it feels great.

1270
01:29:32,284 --> 01:29:35,524
Teddy, are you on board with that or no?

1271
01:29:35,524 --> 01:29:36,365
Not really?

1272
01:29:37,485 --> 01:29:39,604
Yeah, I'm gonna have to pass on that one,

1273
01:29:39,604 --> 01:29:44,365
but maybe it could be a Teddy Drivechain sidechain

1274
01:29:45,164 --> 01:29:47,404
where Henry pegs you if you peg in.

1275
01:29:47,404 --> 01:29:50,005
Sounds like he's open to experimenting.

1276
01:29:51,084 --> 01:29:53,765
I'm now beginning to see why the spaces

1277
01:29:53,765 --> 01:29:57,805
run by Magoo and Shinobi are so raunchy.

1278
01:29:57,805 --> 01:30:02,084
Now that I'm doing this, I understand that after an hour,

1279
01:30:02,084 --> 01:30:06,685
the brain begins to fatigue and the mind wanders

1280
01:30:06,685 --> 01:30:10,404
into the realm of the raunchy and the humorous.

1281
01:30:10,404 --> 01:30:11,604
And that's why when you go in there,

1282
01:30:11,604 --> 01:30:14,084
everyone is just like letting it rip.

1283
01:30:15,964 --> 01:30:17,844
I used to go in there, into those spaces,

1284
01:30:17,844 --> 01:30:18,925
and I'd be like, why aren't they having

1285
01:30:18,925 --> 01:30:21,204
an academic discussion about the need

1286
01:30:21,204 --> 01:30:23,164
for greater extensibility on Bitcoin?

1287
01:30:24,044 --> 01:30:26,565
And then now I see that it just becomes

1288
01:30:26,565 --> 01:30:31,565
like an all-out sort of like just comedy fest,

1289
01:30:34,044 --> 01:30:36,685
because why not, especially late at night

1290
01:30:36,685 --> 01:30:40,164
as the candle burns low, the mind wanders,

1291
01:30:40,164 --> 01:30:44,044
the wine bottle, the level goes lower and lower,

1292
01:30:44,044 --> 01:30:46,964
and the intoxicating aromas of the candle

1293
01:30:46,964 --> 01:30:49,685
and the wine, the cigars and whatnot,

1294
01:30:49,685 --> 01:30:54,685
they all mingle and we enter the realm of the imagination.

1295
01:30:54,964 --> 01:30:59,204
And that's where we contemplate the combination

1296
01:30:59,204 --> 01:31:02,365
of the natural phenomena of the flickering candle

1297
01:31:02,365 --> 01:31:06,925
and the aroma of the smoke with the elevated consciousness

1298
01:31:06,925 --> 01:31:09,524
and the perception of beauty.

1299
01:31:09,524 --> 01:31:13,284
And that is the sublime in art and nature.

1300
01:31:13,284 --> 01:31:15,604
That's the experience of the sublime.

1301
01:31:19,284 --> 01:31:20,125
Do you agree?

1302
01:31:23,524 --> 01:31:25,445
All right, we got the thumbs up.

1303
01:31:25,445 --> 01:31:27,604
So welcome to Drivechain Twitter Spaces.

1304
01:31:27,604 --> 01:31:29,204
We have tons of people in the audience.

1305
01:31:29,204 --> 01:31:31,005
We're well into the double digits.

1306
01:31:31,005 --> 01:31:32,964
Welcome everyone who's joined.

1307
01:31:32,964 --> 01:31:36,604
Feel free to come up and do a little rant.

1308
01:31:37,284 --> 01:31:40,005
Say whatever you're thinking.

1309
01:31:40,005 --> 01:31:42,964
Maybe you're wondering, why Drivechain?

1310
01:31:42,964 --> 01:31:46,005
Maybe you're thinking, why not just Bitcoin?

1311
01:31:46,005 --> 01:31:47,245
Why can't we just have Bitcoin?

1312
01:31:47,245 --> 01:31:49,365
After all, isn't Bitcoin gonna take over the world?

1313
01:31:49,365 --> 01:31:51,724
Don't we just, we don't need to do anything.

1314
01:31:51,724 --> 01:31:54,565
We can just free ride, buy Bitcoin,

1315
01:31:54,565 --> 01:31:58,404
maybe lever up, cash in, get on the money bus,

1316
01:31:58,404 --> 01:32:02,485
and we're going to money town, lever up,

1317
01:32:02,485 --> 01:32:03,765
and can't we just do that?

1318
01:32:03,765 --> 01:32:05,084
That's what you're probably thinking.

1319
01:32:05,084 --> 01:32:06,765
Why do we have to build anything?

1320
01:32:06,765 --> 01:32:07,844
We shouldn't have done Taproot.

1321
01:32:07,844 --> 01:32:10,805
Now we have all these dick butts on the blockchain.

1322
01:32:10,805 --> 01:32:13,125
We should have just stuck with what we had

1323
01:32:13,125 --> 01:32:17,164
and just ride that out 21 million to infinity.

1324
01:32:18,084 --> 01:32:19,685
Everything's cool.

1325
01:32:19,685 --> 01:32:20,925
Maybe that's what you're thinking.

1326
01:32:20,925 --> 01:32:23,404
Maybe you're thinking we could have just done that.

1327
01:32:23,404 --> 01:32:27,005
Why do we need to have whatever Thunder and Hivemind is?

1328
01:32:27,005 --> 01:32:29,404
Why can't we just do Bitcoin?

1329
01:32:29,404 --> 01:32:30,565
Well, here's the thing.

1330
01:32:31,485 --> 01:32:32,644
It's not so simple.

1331
01:32:32,644 --> 01:32:34,685
It turns out that there's a ton of interest

1332
01:32:35,284 --> 01:32:37,404
in doing all kinds of valuable things on blockchain

1333
01:32:37,404 --> 01:32:38,685
other than just money,

1334
01:32:39,604 --> 01:32:41,644
and it would be very good for Bitcoin

1335
01:32:41,644 --> 01:32:43,844
to have greater extensibility.

1336
01:32:43,844 --> 01:32:44,724
As I mentioned earlier,

1337
01:32:44,724 --> 01:32:47,245
extensibility is this Adam Back word.

1338
01:32:47,245 --> 01:32:48,084
I had to look it up.

1339
01:32:48,084 --> 01:32:51,005
I literally Googled the word extensibility,

1340
01:32:52,125 --> 01:32:54,844
and it said it had a sub-definition

1341
01:32:55,805 --> 01:32:57,365
in the realm of computing,

1342
01:32:58,365 --> 01:33:00,245
and the definition was something like

1343
01:33:00,245 --> 01:33:03,485
extensibility refers to a greater level

1344
01:33:03,485 --> 01:33:07,164
of customization and development being made possible.

1345
01:33:07,164 --> 01:33:10,844
So I think if we increase Bitcoin's extensibility,

1346
01:33:10,844 --> 01:33:14,245
extending Bitcoin into different realms,

1347
01:33:14,245 --> 01:33:16,524
then that is what creates a lot of value.

1348
01:33:16,524 --> 01:33:18,084
Like this peer-to-peer oracle stuff,

1349
01:33:18,084 --> 01:33:20,404
the kind of stuff they talk about at Chainlink

1350
01:33:20,404 --> 01:33:22,445
where they have these economists and mathematicians

1351
01:33:22,445 --> 01:33:26,885
trying to develop ways to have an emergent order

1352
01:33:26,885 --> 01:33:31,885
for the adjudication of smart contracts,

1353
01:33:34,125 --> 01:33:35,644
in a blockchain context,

1354
01:33:36,604 --> 01:33:38,644
having people write to the blockchain reliably

1355
01:33:38,644 --> 01:33:41,724
and accurately to adjudicate the smart contracts,

1356
01:33:41,724 --> 01:33:44,045
that I think is what Chainlink's trying to do,

1357
01:33:44,045 --> 01:33:46,684
this peer-to-peer oracle network,

1358
01:33:46,684 --> 01:33:50,165
having people in a multitude participate in that,

1359
01:33:50,165 --> 01:33:52,405
kind of like Bitcoin miners,

1360
01:33:52,405 --> 01:33:54,245
even though they're self-interested, anonymous,

1361
01:33:54,245 --> 01:33:57,444
and mutually distrusting, they all do the right thing.

1362
01:33:57,444 --> 01:33:59,204
They make Bitcoin run.

1363
01:33:59,204 --> 01:34:00,645
There's an emergent order.

1364
01:34:00,645 --> 01:34:03,165
Well, you can have the same thing for oracles.

1365
01:34:03,844 --> 01:34:06,204
So the whole oracle problem really isn't a problem.

1366
01:34:06,204 --> 01:34:09,885
And I think what Chainlink is trying to do is interesting.

1367
01:34:09,885 --> 01:34:13,005
Now, I think it's not going to work out that well

1368
01:34:13,005 --> 01:34:17,285
because they have some differences that are fundamental

1369
01:34:17,285 --> 01:34:20,645
with what Hivemind plans to do.

1370
01:34:20,645 --> 01:34:23,645
So Hivemind is Paul Sztorc's sidechain project

1371
01:34:23,645 --> 01:34:25,125
for peer-to-peer oracles,

1372
01:34:25,125 --> 01:34:28,684
which I think is a much more potentially powerful design

1373
01:34:28,684 --> 01:34:30,804
than any other kind of oracle network

1374
01:34:30,804 --> 01:34:32,844
that's ever been attempted.

1375
01:34:33,525 --> 01:34:35,204
So we'll get the real deal.

1376
01:34:35,204 --> 01:34:38,804
We'll overcome the oracle problem on Bitcoin with Hivemind.

1377
01:34:38,804 --> 01:34:40,165
And that'll be really cool.

1378
01:34:41,324 --> 01:34:42,765
Once Drivechain's available,

1379
01:34:42,765 --> 01:34:45,125
this Hivemind thing will launch,

1380
01:34:45,125 --> 01:34:48,204
and it'll be like the coolest blockchain project ever.

1381
01:34:48,204 --> 01:34:51,005
And all of the demand and activity for it

1382
01:34:51,005 --> 01:34:54,324
will be on Bitcoin, making Bitcoin more valuable.

1383
01:34:54,324 --> 01:34:55,645
It'll be very interesting.

1384
01:34:57,165 --> 01:34:59,365
But my point was that peer-to-peer oracles

1385
01:34:59,365 --> 01:35:01,645
is one category of development on blockchain

1386
01:35:01,645 --> 01:35:05,005
that is potentially very interesting and valuable.

1387
01:35:05,005 --> 01:35:06,604
And we want it to be on Bitcoin.

1388
01:35:06,604 --> 01:35:08,125
Same thing with big blocks,

1389
01:35:08,125 --> 01:35:11,324
same thing with smart contracting

1390
01:35:11,324 --> 01:35:16,125
or Turing-complete protocols and privacy protocols.

1391
01:35:16,125 --> 01:35:18,245
We want that whole privacy community in Bitcoin.

1392
01:35:18,245 --> 01:35:20,645
That was the cypherpunk ethos, private,

1393
01:35:20,645 --> 01:35:25,645
libertarian, anarcho-capitalist, voluntarist.

1394
01:35:26,365 --> 01:35:29,885
That's the ethos for Bitcoin from the outset.

1395
01:35:29,924 --> 01:35:33,924
It wasn't about partnering with nation-states

1396
01:35:33,924 --> 01:35:35,804
and having government approval,

1397
01:35:35,804 --> 01:35:37,485
which is the narrative today in Bitcoin.

1398
01:35:37,485 --> 01:35:39,365
It's like, oh, which government can we get

1399
01:35:39,365 --> 01:35:42,765
to applaud Bitcoin?

1400
01:35:42,765 --> 01:35:44,324
That wasn't the cypherpunk ethos.

1401
01:35:44,324 --> 01:35:46,604
The whole cypherpunk ethos was like,

1402
01:35:46,604 --> 01:35:49,525
try to avoid government attention.

1403
01:35:49,525 --> 01:35:50,645
That's what Satoshi said,

1404
01:35:50,645 --> 01:35:53,645
is let's keep the heat off as long as we can

1405
01:35:55,204 --> 01:35:57,485
and just develop the project.

1406
01:35:57,485 --> 01:35:59,444
And he said six different times

1407
01:36:00,005 --> 01:36:00,844
that people can be anonymous.

1408
01:36:00,844 --> 01:36:02,804
He was all about privacy and anonymity.

1409
01:36:03,964 --> 01:36:06,604
And he also wasn't anti-gambling.

1410
01:36:06,604 --> 01:36:09,324
He wrote poker code for Bitcoin.

1411
01:36:09,324 --> 01:36:10,844
It's like in the first version of Bitcoin,

1412
01:36:10,844 --> 01:36:15,485
there was this code for call, fold, raise,

1413
01:36:15,485 --> 01:36:17,005
double down, whatever.

1414
01:36:17,005 --> 01:36:17,924
That's blackjack.

1415
01:36:17,924 --> 01:36:21,645
But he didn't dislike gambling.

1416
01:36:21,645 --> 01:36:26,324
So the whole terminology today of shitcoin, casinos,

1417
01:36:26,324 --> 01:36:28,365
that kind of anti-altcoin stuff,

1418
01:36:28,365 --> 01:36:30,844
he doesn't resonate with Satoshi's words.

1419
01:36:31,645 --> 01:36:33,125
He wasn't anti-gambling.

1420
01:36:36,168 --> 01:36:40,408
He also didn't have this monetary maximalism. He didn't think blockchain was only for Bitcoin

1421
01:36:40,408 --> 01:36:46,648
because he clearly endorsed and countenanced DNS, which was a separate protocol. But he wanted it to

1422
01:36:46,648 --> 01:36:52,647
be merge-mined with Bitcoin. And had he known how to do a trustless two-way peg, I think he

1423
01:36:52,647 --> 01:36:58,487
would have done it. I really believe that Satoshi would have done drivechain had he understood how

1424
01:36:58,487 --> 01:37:04,487
to do it. And that's the only reason why he would have approved of a merged mine altcoin.

1425
01:37:04,487 --> 01:37:10,888
The only reason why someone like Satoshi would have approved of a merged mine altcoin is he

1426
01:37:10,888 --> 01:37:17,928
didn't understand that there was a way to do a merged mined two-way pegged sidechain controlled

1427
01:37:17,928 --> 01:37:24,568
by miners. Had he known how to do that, I think he would have done it. I really believe that

1428
01:37:24,568 --> 01:37:28,967
Satoshi would have loved drivechain. He would have said, yes, this is great. Let's do this.

1429
01:37:28,967 --> 01:37:33,848
And that way Bitcoin can grow in a way that doesn't affect the main chain,

1430
01:37:33,848 --> 01:37:37,048
except positively by boosting main chain value and fees.

1431
01:37:39,528 --> 01:37:42,568
I think he would have done that. I think that drivechain just maybe,

1432
01:37:43,208 --> 01:37:45,687
maybe could be like the final change for Bitcoin.

1433
01:37:46,407 --> 01:37:50,168
And from there on out, it can grow and conquer the whole world.

1434
01:37:51,127 --> 01:37:58,248
Well, HeroGamer, you're back for the third time. Wow. You just can't get enough of drivechain talk.

1435
01:37:59,447 --> 01:38:00,727
What would you like to say?

1436
01:38:05,127 --> 01:38:06,328
The mic is yours, HeroGamer.

1437
01:38:07,367 --> 01:38:15,848
Oh, just, yeah, I hear everything you're saying and a little bit of a

1438
01:38:16,248 --> 01:38:23,608
side topic or, well, it's just all the ordinals talks right now. It's pretty hard. So I just

1439
01:38:23,608 --> 01:38:30,328
wonder if there's any, what's the general sentiment in the drivechain community about ordinals?

1440
01:38:32,328 --> 01:38:34,807
Yeah, just like to sort of understand.

1441
01:38:36,008 --> 01:38:38,008
Shout out to Nakamoto's on Bitcoin.

1442
01:38:38,568 --> 01:38:44,568
I think that the drivechain take on ordinals is that drivechain is very much aligned with ordinals.

1443
01:38:45,208 --> 01:38:52,967
So the ordinals philosophy is that using the block space for something other than just payments

1444
01:38:54,088 --> 01:39:01,047
is appropriate and is good for Bitcoin. And this is, you know,

1445
01:39:01,848 --> 01:39:05,208
in my view, what can be called platform maximalism.

1446
01:39:06,487 --> 01:39:12,648
Pete Rizzo, editor of Bitcoin Magazine, has written very well on the topic of platform

1447
01:39:12,648 --> 01:39:18,487
maximalism and related issues. So platform maximalism, in my view, is this idea that

1448
01:39:18,487 --> 01:39:23,928
all kinds of uses of blockchain are appropriate and they enhance the value of blockchain.

1449
01:39:24,487 --> 01:39:30,008
And they enhance the user base. The number of people using Bitcoin increases when a new

1450
01:39:30,008 --> 01:39:35,288
category of utilization of Bitcoin's blockchain is discovered.

1451
01:39:38,407 --> 01:39:44,487
Ordinals is one example of that, and it is fully aligned philosophically with drivechain.

1452
01:39:45,047 --> 01:39:49,848
I do believe that the drivechain community is very much aligned with ordinals.

1453
01:39:49,848 --> 01:39:54,728
It is fully aligned philosophically with drivechain. I do believe that if drivechain

1454
01:39:54,728 --> 01:40:03,208
is adopted, things like ordinals will exist in much greater number and will be done primarily

1455
01:40:03,208 --> 01:40:12,487
on sidechains, not on the mainchain. So I think it's a win for everyone.

1456
01:40:13,448 --> 01:40:21,928
The activity moves to the sidechain that is designed to facilitate that category of activity

1457
01:40:22,887 --> 01:40:28,088
most efficiently and productively. And it moves away from the mainchain.

1458
01:40:29,047 --> 01:40:36,008
So the users get lower fees and they're not affecting the mainchain in the way that they

1459
01:40:36,008 --> 01:40:41,448
are now. And it's a win for everyone because then there's more people using Bitcoin,

1460
01:40:42,008 --> 01:40:48,088
more activity on Bitcoin, more value accrual to Bitcoin, more value accrual to Bitcoin's

1461
01:40:48,088 --> 01:40:56,087
block space by operation of merged mining. And there's more users of Bitcoin. So Bitcoin has

1462
01:40:56,087 --> 01:41:00,328
a larger community, more political support for Bitcoin. It's just good in every way.

1463
01:41:01,927 --> 01:41:06,728
Everyone in this room is listening. If you like what you're hearing about drivechain,

1464
01:41:06,728 --> 01:41:14,647
the way to proceed is to educate yourself by going to a drivechain focused essay or video.

1465
01:41:15,288 --> 01:41:21,207
You can find them on drivechain.info. You can go to the drivechain talk telegram group,

1466
01:41:21,927 --> 01:41:28,807
which is available as a link on drivechain.info. There's also LayerTwo Labs, YouTube channel,

1467
01:41:30,488 --> 01:41:35,527
and there's many videos on there. There's over a hundred hours of videos on there, I believe.

1468
01:41:37,687 --> 01:41:43,927
Lectures and talks about drivechain at various conferences.

1469
01:41:46,888 --> 01:41:53,527
And there's also the software you can download in the testnet. So if you're technically inclined

1470
01:41:54,168 --> 01:42:01,448
or if you're just ambitious, you can get involved at a technical level as many people have.

1471
01:42:02,328 --> 01:42:08,247
So yeah, Ordinal's is cool. I have looked for a comment by Ordinal's creator Casey Rodarmor

1472
01:42:09,127 --> 01:42:17,608
about drivechain and he has never tweeted about either drivechain or drivechains, BIP300. And

1473
01:42:17,608 --> 01:42:23,288
I've also looked for his comments on sidechain or sidechains and I do not think he's ever tweeted

1474
01:42:23,288 --> 01:42:28,967
about them. So he hasn't yet commented. However, he did have a recent interview on Fiatjaf's

1475
01:42:29,927 --> 01:42:37,288
podcast, which I think exists mainly as a YouTube channel. But yeah, if you go to Fiatjaf's YouTube

1476
01:42:37,288 --> 01:42:44,328
channel, his most recent talk was with Casey Rodarmor and I didn't listen to all of it yet,

1477
01:42:44,888 --> 01:42:49,927
but I wonder if they discussed drivechain because Fiatjaf is a huge drivechain fan.

1478
01:42:52,008 --> 01:42:58,008
Fiatjaf is the creator of Nostr and maybe it came up. I would love to know what Casey thinks.

1479
01:42:58,087 --> 01:43:04,407
I would suspect that like Fiatjaf, Casey is a drivechain fan or if he were to become more

1480
01:43:04,407 --> 01:43:10,488
acquainted with the project would express support for it, perhaps. So I'd love to know what he

1481
01:43:10,488 --> 01:43:14,087
thinks. Having listened to him a little bit, he sounds very smart and very cool.

1482
01:43:17,527 --> 01:43:22,568
And as I say, it seems to me the fundamentals of Ordinal's are entirely aligned

1483
01:43:22,647 --> 01:43:29,207
with the philosophy of drivechain. Making Bitcoin more useful, exciting,

1484
01:43:29,207 --> 01:43:34,647
and popular and valuable. That's what drivechain is about and that's what Ordinal is about.

1485
01:43:40,407 --> 01:43:44,407
As we talked about earlier in this meeting, this Twitter space is some of the

1486
01:43:45,448 --> 01:43:50,568
possibilities for drivechain interest growing in the future could be low fees

1487
01:43:51,288 --> 01:43:56,008
perceived as a threat to Bitcoin's fee-reliant economic security model.

1488
01:43:56,728 --> 01:44:03,288
Fee-reliant economic security model. But another potential impetus for drivechain interest would be

1489
01:44:03,288 --> 01:44:11,527
high fees which would drive interest in developing scaling layers for Bitcoin that have low fees

1490
01:44:12,488 --> 01:44:23,527
such as a large block sidechain. So whichever way the fees go because of Ordinal's or anything else,

1491
01:44:24,087 --> 01:44:29,927
if fees stay low, there could be more interest in drivechain. If fees go high, there could be

1492
01:44:29,927 --> 01:44:35,367
more interest in drivechain. So either way the fees go, we could see more interest in drivechain.

1493
01:44:36,328 --> 01:44:41,687
Another issue with Ordinal's is the perceived increase in the rate of data accrual to the

1494
01:44:41,687 --> 01:44:50,728
blockchain called bloat. So there's this perception that Ordinal's involve a relatively low

1495
01:44:51,288 --> 01:44:59,448
compensation to miners in proportion to the data attached to the blockchain. So in Bitcoin,

1496
01:44:59,608 --> 01:45:05,687
so in Bitcoin, there's a complex dynamic where miners are paid for their services

1497
01:45:07,288 --> 01:45:15,048
to find the nonce and do the mining, but the node runners are not compensated

1498
01:45:15,928 --> 01:45:21,527
in return for the amount of data that they have to download and store. So they have costs of

1499
01:45:21,527 --> 01:45:28,168
bandwidth and hardware for storage, but they're not paid for that. So if the rate of data accrual,

1500
01:45:29,128 --> 01:45:36,967
if the rate of data accrual to the blockchain increases, that is effectively a tax on the node

1501
01:45:36,967 --> 01:45:44,567
users. People who have like a node in their home, a Raspberry Pi or a laptop. So

1502
01:45:46,087 --> 01:45:49,048
there's like a higher tax on them because they have to buy

1503
01:45:49,048 --> 01:45:52,007
that hardware and they have to deal with that bandwidth issue.

1504
01:45:52,168 --> 01:45:57,767
So that's one of the topics that's interesting that is growing on this Ordinal's matter.

1505
01:45:57,767 --> 01:46:01,848
And that's one of the topics which can lead to greater interest in drivechain

1506
01:46:04,327 --> 01:46:10,967
is this question of, should we shrink the block size to reduce the rate of data accrual

1507
01:46:10,967 --> 01:46:19,848
to the blockchain? And as a result of that, we would see more use of the scaling layers.

1508
01:46:22,248 --> 01:46:25,928
But whenever people are talking about scaling layers, they're talking about

1509
01:46:25,928 --> 01:46:30,728
drivechains or something similar to it, because of course we don't want to see the scaling layers

1510
01:46:30,728 --> 01:46:38,087
be all federated. We'd like to see them be peer-to-peer in nature, which a federation is not.

1511
01:46:42,327 --> 01:46:46,327
So why don't we address what the difference is between a peer-to-peer

1512
01:46:46,887 --> 01:46:49,688
architecture and a non-peer-to-peer architecture?

1513
01:46:51,288 --> 01:46:58,808
When something is peer-to-peer, in my view, it has only economic barriers to entry for specific

1514
01:46:58,808 --> 01:47:05,767
roles. Whereas when an architecture is not peer-to-peer, there is a privileged party

1515
01:47:06,327 --> 01:47:15,447
that has a socially approved role. So for example, to be like on the board of directors of McDonald's,

1516
01:47:16,327 --> 01:47:22,728
that would not be peer-to-peer arrangement because you were socially selected to be on the

1517
01:47:22,728 --> 01:47:28,567
board. You can't be on the board without that social approval, like being president of the

1518
01:47:28,567 --> 01:47:36,887
United States. It's a socially appointed position. You can't simply raise enough money and be in that

1519
01:47:36,887 --> 01:47:44,087
role. Whereas in Bitcoin mining, it's peer-to-peer because anyone can permissionlessly involve

1520
01:47:44,087 --> 01:47:49,368
themselves as a Bitcoin miner. There's only an economic barrier, not a social barrier to entry.

1521
01:47:50,808 --> 01:47:57,688
So Bitcoin is peer-to-peer. In fact, that's the very beginning of the title of the white paper.

1522
01:47:57,688 --> 01:48:04,728
It's a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. And because Bitcoin is peer-to-peer, the parts of

1523
01:48:04,728 --> 01:48:10,327
Bitcoin's operation are peer-to-peer, such as mining. Mining is peer-to-peer. Anyone can be a

1524
01:48:10,327 --> 01:48:17,608
miner. All it takes is some money to buy the ASICs. And you might say, well, they're not your peer.

1525
01:48:17,608 --> 01:48:22,007
If they're a billionaire and you're not, they're not your peer. But that's a misunderstanding of

1526
01:48:22,007 --> 01:48:29,048
the word peer. In this context, I believe, in Satoshi's context, in the blockchain context,

1527
01:48:29,048 --> 01:48:34,967
peer-to-peer refers not to equality in every sense, but they're your peer in the sense that you could,

1528
01:48:35,928 --> 01:48:40,887
except for economic barriers to entry, have any role in the system you want. You can be a user,

1529
01:48:40,887 --> 01:48:50,168
a transactor, a node runner, a miner, anything. So no one is privileged socially above anyone else.

1530
01:48:50,168 --> 01:48:57,048
That's what peer-to-peer means. So since Bitcoin is peer-to-peer, Bitcoin mining is peer-to-peer,

1531
01:48:57,048 --> 01:49:02,567
and therefore the miner-controlled two-way peg of a drivechain is peer-to-peer.

1532
01:49:03,447 --> 01:49:11,848
And don't take my word for it. Adam Back and others refer to drivechains as peer-to-peer

1533
01:49:11,848 --> 01:49:18,007
sidechains. There are tweets of his where he says peer-to-peer or P2P, referring to sidechains in

1534
01:49:18,007 --> 01:49:24,567
threads about drivechain. So he understands that it would be cool. In fact, that's the word he

1535
01:49:24,567 --> 01:49:29,207
uses. He says pretty cool. When talking about drivechains specifically, he calls it cool,

1536
01:49:29,207 --> 01:49:35,688
which I like because, you know, it is cool. So it'd be great to have these peer-to-peer

1537
01:49:36,728 --> 01:49:40,728
sidechains made available. That's what we want to see.

1538
01:49:45,207 --> 01:49:51,688
Well, we've been going for two hours almost exactly. Maybe it's time to wrap.

1539
01:49:52,168 --> 01:50:00,728
Anybody want to close us out with a little song and dance? Should we do some music? Have a little

1540
01:50:00,728 --> 01:50:10,007
like drivechain to the moon? Yeah, totally. Well, it's coming, Teddy. Day by day, we're getting

1541
01:50:10,007 --> 01:50:14,087
closer. So there are various ways that like interest in drivechains can skyrocket.

1542
01:50:14,248 --> 01:50:18,728
There could be low fees. There could be high fees. Either one can lead, as I mentioned earlier,

1543
01:50:18,728 --> 01:50:27,688
to more drivechain interest and support. Another is flippening. So if Ethereum were to like accrue

1544
01:50:29,048 --> 01:50:34,488
value at a higher rate than Bitcoin, then eventually there would be the market cap

1545
01:50:34,488 --> 01:50:41,368
flippening. So that's another thing that could perhaps stimulate interest in drivechains.

1546
01:50:41,688 --> 01:50:47,767
Another thing that could perhaps stimulate interest in optimizing Bitcoin. And among

1547
01:50:48,407 --> 01:50:54,808
the contenders for the upgrade, drivechain is one of the well-known, well-established

1548
01:50:55,848 --> 01:51:01,928
ideas out there. Drivechain is in fact older than most altcoins. Drivechain was

1549
01:51:01,928 --> 01:51:08,007
first conceived and published as an idea in 2015. It's seven years old.

1550
01:51:12,327 --> 01:51:16,567
And in addition to low fees and high fees and flippening, there are other things that could

1551
01:51:16,567 --> 01:51:22,967
lead to interest in drivechain. For example, there could be just more support for it among

1552
01:51:22,967 --> 01:51:27,688
some of the most influential people out there who are curious about how Bitcoin works and who

1553
01:51:27,688 --> 01:51:33,767
talk about it. I do believe that we're seeing that happen. The intellectuals in Bitcoin,

1554
01:51:34,087 --> 01:51:40,887
the influencers, are increasingly attuned. They are increasingly attuned to the value

1555
01:51:41,447 --> 01:51:47,767
of developing greater extensibility on Bitcoin. Some of the most famous thinkers in Bitcoin,

1556
01:51:47,767 --> 01:51:55,048
like Greg Maxwell, have been talking for years about the possibility of

1557
01:51:55,928 --> 01:52:01,848
sidechains being valuable for Bitcoin. Now, he in particular, I do not believe,

1558
01:52:01,848 --> 01:52:06,327
as far as I know, I do not believe he's an explicit supporter of drivechain.

1559
01:52:07,688 --> 01:52:13,527
I haven't seen any tweets by him. I don't think he's on Twitter. I did do a review of his Reddit

1560
01:52:13,527 --> 01:52:19,048
comments and I didn't find one on drivechain, although I'm not sure if this Reddit comment

1561
01:52:19,848 --> 01:52:25,848
searching tool that I used is reliable, but I need to do more reading of Maxwell.

1562
01:52:25,848 --> 01:52:29,608
I went to his personal website looking for an essay on drivechain. I couldn't find it. He

1563
01:52:29,608 --> 01:52:34,087
has a great personal website with pictures of his library and pictures of the stars. He's

1564
01:52:34,087 --> 01:52:41,608
like an intro photography. He's like astronomical photography. Very cool guy. Very excellent beard

1565
01:52:41,688 --> 01:52:48,808
and just overall cool guy. But he has this comment from 2016 on the value of sidechains,

1566
01:52:48,808 --> 01:52:53,608
which I think is a very cool comment. I could find it and pull it up

1567
01:52:53,608 --> 01:52:58,967
in case our audience is interested. Let me quickly find it here.

1568
01:52:58,967 --> 01:53:13,288
All right, I got it. So this is not a statement in favor of drivechain, to be clear. I'm not saying

1569
01:53:13,288 --> 01:53:19,368
Greg Maxwell supports drivechain. I actually don't know what he thinks, but he wrote the

1570
01:53:19,368 --> 01:53:26,567
following in Bitcoin magazine. This was an interview with him long ago, years ago. He wrote,

1571
01:53:27,368 --> 01:53:35,447
our greatest motivation for the sidechain concept in Bitcoin was being able to better satisfy

1572
01:53:36,248 --> 01:53:44,327
mutually exclusive objectives for the system. However, sidechains by themselves do not

1573
01:53:44,327 --> 01:53:53,768
fundamentally change the scaling limitations of a global broadcast system, though they should

1574
01:53:53,768 --> 01:54:03,447
provide security partitioning if an experimental chain should fail. So this is his very sophisticated

1575
01:54:03,447 --> 01:54:08,167
comment on sidechains. Because I've scoured the internet looking for his thoughts on sidechains

1576
01:54:08,167 --> 01:54:17,047
and drivechains. So far, I've just found that one comment. And it's a very sophisticated way

1577
01:54:17,047 --> 01:54:25,128
of speaking and writing. So my point here is just that this is a thinker interested in sidechains.

1578
01:54:25,128 --> 01:54:30,567
And I think that over time, we're going to see more people like that who are thought leaders

1579
01:54:30,567 --> 01:54:37,687
in Bitcoin. I think over time, they're going to gravitate toward trying to develop on Bitcoin

1580
01:54:37,687 --> 01:54:45,207
better layer twos. Because right now, we mainly just have the federated sidechains, which have

1581
01:54:45,207 --> 01:54:52,008
proven to be not so popular. So we have to do something better that will accrue billions to

1582
01:54:52,008 --> 01:54:59,608
Bitcoin, not just like $50 million, like Liquid or RSK, we got to upgrade them so that they can

1583
01:54:59,608 --> 01:55:08,008
fulfill the vision of building on Bitcoin in a huge way. That would be cool. Well, everybody,

1584
01:55:08,008 --> 01:55:14,167
it's just me on stage now. I guess we'll wrap. It's been two hours. This has been this has been

1585
01:55:14,167 --> 01:55:21,528
quite a epic drivechain Twitter spaces. Thank you for those who've listened. For those listening

1586
01:55:21,528 --> 01:55:29,207
on demand after the recording is done. Thanks. You know, this recording will be available

1587
01:55:29,207 --> 01:55:38,408
on Twitter forever until Twitter is destroyed by the Nosterization of the internet. Nostr

1588
01:55:39,447 --> 01:55:46,807
is a protocol that competes with Twitter. It is very cool and was created by a

1589
01:55:47,927 --> 01:55:54,648
emphatic drivechain supporter Fiatjaf. You know, I talk about him so much and I always say

1590
01:55:54,648 --> 01:56:01,927
how he supports drivechain. I wonder if I do it too much. You know, it's almost like an affinity

1591
01:56:01,927 --> 01:56:07,047
thing, like an affinity scam, as the Bitcoiners often call many different projects. Like they're

1592
01:56:07,047 --> 01:56:12,648
just talking about Bitcoin and it's like I talk about Nostr to shill drivechain. It's just it's

1593
01:56:12,648 --> 01:56:19,128
funny. But I hope he doesn't mind because, you know, he's very cool and Nostr is cool. And as

1594
01:56:19,128 --> 01:56:24,807
Nostr becomes massively successful, maybe we'll see more support for drivechain just because the

1595
01:56:24,807 --> 01:56:31,447
creator of Nostr is a drivechain supporter. I mean, Fiatjaf is becoming famous. Nostr has

1596
01:56:32,408 --> 01:56:38,167
like thousands and thousands of people joining Nostr every day or something like that. It's like

1597
01:56:38,167 --> 01:56:44,248
very rapidly growing all over the world. It's growing so much that like China banned Nostr

1598
01:56:44,248 --> 01:56:51,528
from like the app store in China. So like entire countries are taking action over Nostr. It seems

1599
01:56:51,528 --> 01:56:56,648
like it's going to be huge. So maybe maybe Fiatjaf will become like among the most famous

1600
01:56:56,648 --> 01:57:03,768
Bitcoiners and then he will continue to advocate for drivechain and then drivechain will eventually

1601
01:57:04,967 --> 01:57:09,287
get more support that way, perhaps. And that would be cool. That'd be great for Bitcoin and good for

1602
01:57:09,287 --> 01:57:16,008
Bitcoin hodlers. I mean, ultimately, the biggest group of people who benefit from drivechain are

1603
01:57:16,008 --> 01:57:22,087
Bitcoin hodlers. If you're someone who just holds Bitcoin and you want to see Bitcoin's value

1604
01:57:23,287 --> 01:57:30,327
persist and grow, in my personal opinion, drivechain has a very real possibility

1605
01:57:31,047 --> 01:57:38,327
of contributing meaningfully to that growth trajectory. I'm not guaranteeing

1606
01:57:38,327 --> 01:57:44,248
drivechain will make Bitcoin go up and I can't guarantee that. No one can guarantee anything

1607
01:57:44,248 --> 01:57:51,368
about the future. But I believe that if Bitcoin develops greater extensibility, it's very possible

1608
01:57:51,368 --> 01:57:58,567
that that will, in the future, be understood to have been an important part of the growth story

1609
01:57:58,567 --> 01:58:06,807
of Bitcoin. And with that, we will close. And I hope to see you all again soon. We do this twice a

1610
01:58:06,807 --> 01:58:14,567
week, Mondays in the morning Pacific time and Thursdays in the evening Pacific time. So the next

1611
01:58:14,567 --> 01:58:22,408
one will be Monday. And I hope you all be back for more drivechain. Please go to drivechain.info,

1612
01:58:22,408 --> 01:58:28,327
read about it, bring your questions and criticisms and skepticism and arguments here. We welcome

1613
01:58:28,327 --> 01:58:34,807
debate and criticism. We welcome it. You know, this is an open intellectual project in the drive

1614
01:58:34,807 --> 01:58:40,488
chain community. We absolutely believe that the truth is on our side. So we welcome people to bring

1615
01:58:40,488 --> 01:58:47,608
their questions and criticisms because we have answers to all of those. So it's not like a cult

1616
01:58:47,608 --> 01:58:52,888
where it's like, oh, you have to believe this. You have to accept these tenants as truth. No,

1617
01:58:52,888 --> 01:58:57,608
it's really the opposite. It's like we are the one project that has none of that. In my view,

1618
01:58:57,608 --> 01:59:04,728
we're like nothing to hide. So I'm very excited about that. That's why I love this opportunity

1619
01:59:04,728 --> 01:59:11,128
to be a part of this movement, because if it succeeds, I expect total vindication. In other

1620
01:59:11,128 --> 01:59:20,008
words, enormous value accrual to drivechain or in some other sense, some form of confirmation

1621
01:59:20,008 --> 01:59:26,167
that this project was powerful, such as a great diminution in the proliferation of altcoins as a

1622
01:59:26,167 --> 01:59:33,528
result of the drivechain narrative that Bitcoin is more extensible than it used to be. Alternatively,

1623
01:59:33,528 --> 01:59:39,768
if drivechain is not adopted, unfortunately, regrettably, I think that vindication will also be

1624
01:59:41,768 --> 01:59:46,327
achieved by the drive chainers because the lack of drivechain adoption,

1625
01:59:47,927 --> 01:59:54,567
the lack of drivechain adoption would unfortunately, I think, be deleterious to

1626
01:59:54,567 --> 02:00:01,128
Bitcoin's long term growth trajectory. So either we get drivechain and it works well, or we don't

1627
02:00:01,128 --> 02:00:07,047
get drivechain and things don't go so well for Bitcoin. That's my personal opinion. So I think

1628
02:00:07,047 --> 02:00:15,848
whatever happens in the future, I will be able to enjoy vindication in a sense. Now, of course,

1629
02:00:15,848 --> 02:00:24,327
I much prefer that drivechain be adopted and then Bitcoin win. But if it isn't, then the way

1630
02:00:24,327 --> 02:00:30,327
that the drive chainers would be undermined is if Bitcoin does very well without drivechain.

1631
02:00:30,327 --> 02:00:33,528
But at the moment, I personally don't really envision that happening. I mean,

1632
02:00:34,087 --> 02:00:39,608
like the flipping is coming closer and closer. The Bitcoin fees are very low. I feel that

1633
02:00:40,728 --> 02:00:46,327
the way things are going right now aren't isn't so rosy. Like Bitcoin is still number one by

1634
02:00:46,327 --> 02:00:51,528
market cap. So people feel pretty comfortable. They're kind of like resting on their laurels.

1635
02:00:51,528 --> 02:00:59,447
They're, you know, resting assured. But actually, like tick tock next block. Yeah, that's great. But

1636
02:00:59,447 --> 02:01:06,408
like tick tock next having, you know, like the march of time is inescapable. Time and tide wait

1637
02:01:06,408 --> 02:01:13,368
for no man, as the bard says. What's happening here is with every successive having there is

1638
02:01:14,248 --> 02:01:19,848
a greater reliance on the fees and the fees are low. So I feel that we're like up against the

1639
02:01:19,848 --> 02:01:25,927
clock here. You know, we're living on borrowed time. I do personally feel like we need to embrace

1640
02:01:25,927 --> 02:01:31,447
merged mining immediately. We have to start growing Bitcoin's value and miner revenue

1641
02:01:31,447 --> 02:01:36,967
through drivechains, through merged mine sidechains as soon as possible. I don't want to see

1642
02:01:36,967 --> 02:01:42,488
Bitcoin's dominance fall any further. I don't want to see a flipping permanently diminish the

1643
02:01:42,488 --> 02:01:47,927
narratives of Bitcoin as the number one, as the king, as the largest network effect. You know,

1644
02:01:47,927 --> 02:01:54,008
one of the most popular maxi narratives is that money moves to one. Network effects are powerful.

1645
02:01:54,008 --> 02:02:00,248
Well, as soon as Bitcoin isn't the largest network effects, network effects aren't on Bitcoin side

1646
02:02:00,248 --> 02:02:07,128
anymore. So I feel there's an urgency. There's a great drama afoot. We must embrace drivechains

1647
02:02:07,128 --> 02:02:17,368
soon. Otherwise, we could be risking a lot. That's my personal opinion. Maybe I'm just too

1648
02:02:17,368 --> 02:02:22,807
zealous. Maybe I'll be completely disproven, right? Maybe 10 years from now, there's no drive

1649
02:02:22,807 --> 02:02:29,848
chain and Bitcoin is better than ever in terms of value and dominance and everything. Maybe that'll

1650
02:02:29,848 --> 02:02:36,728
happen and then I'll have to learn why. What did I not understand correctly and scientifically?

1651
02:02:38,567 --> 02:02:46,248
But as far as I can tell, there are many signs that this upgrade is needed and it's needed as

1652
02:02:47,207 --> 02:02:54,488
as soon as reasonably possible would be ideal. So I encourage all of you who are listening

1653
02:02:55,128 --> 02:03:00,807
to read about it on drivechain.info and elsewhere. Read the criticisms that you can find on the

1654
02:03:00,807 --> 02:03:07,128
internet as well as the advocacy for it and then discuss it at your local Bitcoin meetup

1655
02:03:07,128 --> 02:03:13,287
or among your friends who are Bitcoiners. This community is smaller than you think

1656
02:03:13,287 --> 02:03:22,008
and every additional voice is helpful. So get involved and you can like and retweet things.

1657
02:03:22,008 --> 02:03:28,167
You can post things on Reddit. You can share things on Telegram and Nostr and Twitter and

1658
02:03:28,167 --> 02:03:34,888
everywhere. Get the word out and spread the good word if you'd like to. All right. Well,

1659
02:03:34,888 --> 02:03:40,167
I'll see you all on Monday. Thanks for listening and thanks to those who spoke. It was great.

1660
02:03:43,287 --> 02:03:43,687
Bye.