0:00 It's time for Declare Your Independence with Ernest Hancock. 0:31 I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. 0:36 And after a century of war, I remember that which matters most. 0:42 We are still here! 0:47 Tonight, let us make them remember, we are not afraid! 1:01 Thunderstruck! 1:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no fear! 1:07 No fear, no fear, no fear, no fear, no fear, no fear! 1:09 Here on Declare Your Independence with Ernest Hancock from the Sonoran Desert. 1:15 Well, we have a special guest today. 1:18 eCash, we're going to be talking about another, another fork of Bitcoin. 1:23 BTC, you got it? You're going to get this too? And why? 1:27 Why, why, why, why, why, why? 1:30 Well, we're going to be talking to Paul Sztorc. 1:34 Am I saying that right? 1:36 Yeah, Storts, basically. 1:38 It's been mispronounced before. 1:40 I know, but I mean, it's your name, man, I want to do it right. 1:43 All right, Paul Sztorc. 1:45 Now, it's going to be an interesting show. 1:48 I wanted to make sure everybody understands what is at stake here. 1:54 We've been covering Bitcoin since the beginning. 1:58 I think it was $1.69 or something when we first started. 2:01 Now, the thing is, is that I'm going, okay, let's go ahead. 2:05 Why crypto to begin with? 2:08 Why so many? 2:10 And why a fork of BTC again? 2:13 Which is the nomenclature for Bitcoin. 2:16 Now, what we want to understand is what Bitcoin... 2:21 I'm going to let Paul just skip to the end on what is Bitcoin. 2:28 How secure it is now with quantum computing coming. 2:33 Is there a concern there or not? 2:36 Why we would be looking for alternatives? 2:38 How integrated has it gotten in with the legacy banking system? 2:43 It got shoehorned into freaking ETFs and Donald J. Trump. 2:50 And you're not allowed to do it until we do it first. 2:54 And here we've done it. 2:56 So it's like GoldmanSucks.gov coin now. 2:59 So I'm going, all right, if we're going to improve it, what needs to be improved? 3:05 Why does it need to be improved? 3:07 Why not just start another crypto? 3:09 Why fork BTC? 3:11 There are some benefits. 3:12 We're going to talk about it. 3:14 But what do you say you do here, Paul? 3:18 Go ahead. 3:19 And let's go ahead and introduce you a little bit. 3:23 What an incredible introduction. 3:25 Well, I want to let them know who we're dealing with here. 3:31 Now, you get all geeky. 3:34 You know, creator of BIP300, 301, Drivechain, blind-merging, mining, 3:38 the Bitwin wallet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 3:40 Nobody knows what the hell we're talking about. 3:43 And big thing is that he's an advocate for sidechains, 3:48 sidechains, you know, at other levels, layers. 3:52 But the one thing we want to start off with is he's an advocate of an even smaller block. 4:00 And I'm like, whoa, it's always been a small block versus big block. 4:05 Well, we can make it even smaller and do what and why. 4:09 But we're going to find out. 4:10 Now, we have some friends in Mexico that have been a big advocate of this, 4:15 and he wanted to make sure that, you know, I had talked to Paul, 4:19 and go ahead, Ernie, ask him all the questions. 4:21 He knows what's up. 4:22 So I'm like, all right, here we go. 4:24 Well, the first thing is let's go ahead and, you know, get your bona fides in order here. 4:31 You came from where, why, to do what in the beginning. 4:37 Give us your track record in the crypto space to begin with, Paul. 4:45 Okay, all right. 4:46 Well, originally I was an academic, and I worked in the economics department. 4:52 And I then published a couple essays on Bitcoin and proof of work, 4:59 and I published this article on a decentralized prediction market system, 5:04 and that was what was called Truthcoin. 5:07 And at that point Roger Ver, this was like in 2014, 5:11 and then at that point Roger Ver hired me away from academia to work on Bitcoin full time. 5:18 That was like the beginning, and then I've kind of been involved ever since. 5:24 Wild industry, of course. 5:26 Well, what was Roger's interest in your efforts to do what? 5:31 Well, I think that this is a separate topic, although it's related, 5:35 but prediction markets are a really important technology, 5:38 and I was beating this drum back in, you know, 2012, 2013, 2014, as I mentioned. 5:44 And now with Polymarket and Calshi, you know, they've kind of exploded onto the scene. 5:50 But I was saying we should do this on Bitcoin a long time ago, 5:54 and even Polymarket and Calshi have only scratched the surface of what I proposed be done back in 2013, 6:03 which is that you'd have what Professor Robin Hansen called these decision markets, 6:08 where you could have a market that says, like, if we fire the CEO, what will happen to our stock price? 6:13 Or if the Federal Reserve does policy X, Y, and Z, what will happen to inflation, unemployment, whatever? 6:21 If we fire, one, the ruling party and replace them with the opposition party in a democracy, 6:27 what will happen to the budget? 6:30 What will happen to, you know, whatever, everything, spending on various items? 6:35 Okay, let me ask some questions to clear that up. 6:41 This is my experience. 6:43 I've gone to a lot of different, you know, conferences, seminars, Bitcoin, crypto, this, that. 6:48 One in Texas, they had Bitcoin conferences. 6:52 And what was his name? Snow, I think, you know, they put him on. 6:56 And it was the big racetrack out there, the Great American, whatever, I think near Austin or something. 7:03 But what happened was, they had these hackathons. 7:07 Whenever they had big conferences, oh, we're gonna have a hackathon. 7:10 And you're, it's like an interview, you know. 7:13 So you have all these hackers out there. 7:15 They, you know, organize, self-organize, spontaneous order themselves into three, four, five guys. 7:21 And they do a project and they, you know, live, breathe, you know, dry shower, you know, 7:29 eating Skittles and drinking Red Bulls, you know, in a big room. 7:33 And they just, you know, sleeping bag on the floor. 7:36 And they just go two days of hacking. 7:39 Well, they come up with different things. 7:40 And one of the things, and I would go in and speak to them a little bit, motivate them and kind of, you know, 7:45 in the top three, we're going to do shows and we'll promote, you know, whatever. 7:49 And we do that. 7:50 Well, what happened, I could see, oh, here we go. 7:54 All the interest of all the VCs and the Capitals, what they do is the winners, 7:58 they'll like give them a reward in crypto or, you know, give them a bunch of money to work in. 8:06 They get like, you know, 72.6% of the value of they own, you know, whatever of their life. 8:13 It's kind of like signing a record deal. 8:15 I mean, you know, they, them, those make all the money. 8:18 Well, I saw this happen when one guy, they came up in their presentation, 8:22 what they were going to do is prediction markets. 8:25 They wanted to be able to use Bitcoin because it had so much hash power to where, 8:32 even at the time you were talking about, 13, 14, 15, you know, or even a little bit before that, 8:38 you had Bitcoin had more processing power than Google. 8:42 I mean, it was like, oh my God. 8:44 I mean, what are we going to do with all this power? 8:46 Well, when they started talking about prediction markets and say, 8:50 we can use this power that we have to predict the market. 8:57 Well, man, venture capital, we're going to make us some money on these kids. 9:02 So that I saw was a holy grail of a lot of this processing power. 9:08 There was big time interest in that. 9:10 Now they were one of the top three. 9:13 They may have won and we do a show on it and all that kind of stuff. 9:17 But that wasn't really the point for me. 9:19 For me, it made it very obvious that people with money, 9:23 they wanted to make a lot more money. 9:25 And that prediction markets is where the money be. 9:28 Well, Polymarket, these are more like exchanges than they are beneficiary. 9:34 There's a lottery or, you know, they're bookies. 9:37 I mean, you know, people that, you know, are betting against each other because human interaction, 9:44 you know, you can get a pretty good, you know, prediction market. 9:47 If you got a special forces guys out there predicting they're going to take Maduro. 9:52 I mean, which is just all that. 9:53 Yes. 9:54 So, you know, I'm going, well, is that cheating? 9:58 Well, not for everybody else. 9:59 It's just, you know, it's where the money goes. 10:01 It changes the odds on the race results. 10:04 I mean, that's the way it is. 10:06 What you're talking about was different. 10:08 You're more like a Martin Armstrong guy. 10:11 Can we take enough data input to predict what is going to happen when this happens or this happens or this happens? 10:19 So I just wanted to inject that because it goes into a lot of other things. 10:25 It's not just people's opinion, which is a very good predictor, by the way. 10:31 I'm just saying you ask over a couple of hundred people and you get pretty close to, you know, the answer. 10:36 But when you're talking about is more like an AI that you're having all this data put in and then it's going to predict something. 10:45 How far are we? 10:46 Well, I don't think that's quite. 10:47 I'm talking about a market where people would buy and sell. 10:49 They just buy and sell something that's a little bit more complicated. 10:52 So they buy. 10:53 Basically, if you want to do the if then prediction, you have this. 10:57 I don't know how interested people are in the details, but I'm going to. 11:00 Well, yeah. 11:01 You know, this is this is a turning point in a lot of this stuff with crypto. 11:05 People were starting to see that you had all this processing power, that you started to have this market, that you had all these mines. 11:13 I don't think the processing power with the processing power is effective at solving the double spend problem and deterring like an attacker from rewriting the chain history. 11:24 But it's not the prediction market works because you have a current market price for everything that is expected to happen and combinations of things that might happen. 11:34 And anyone who disagrees can make money by improving the price. 11:39 And that's exactly what happened with that gentleman who was arrested, who was part of the Maduro raid. 11:45 He in a way, he it's interesting. 11:48 It's an interesting example of like how prediction markets are actually very effective because the it was this guy basically sold out the U.S. 11:57 government and sold out his his unit to give the information to the people to give it to the rest of us because he he made this bet that Maduro would be pulled out of office. 12:07 So he knew that Maduro would be out of office, you know, in one way or another. 12:14 And so he improved the prices in advance. 12:17 He actually improved the accuracy of that. 12:19 But of course, what he did, I can see why, you know, why the armed forces were not happy about it, obviously. 12:26 So I see why they arrested him. 12:28 It seems like there's a lot of this preemption in the markets on a bunch of stuff, you know, 20 minutes before Trump does some truth post about we're going to whatever. 12:38 Somebody's already placed a bet. 12:40 You know, somebody's doing something in the finance world. 12:43 They do these things, event studies, and they just track they can pull all this data in the world from like every time someone a corporation announces like bad news or something. 12:55 And so then they just put a graph like this is zero days. 12:58 This is one day after two days after three days after. 13:00 And then they say one day before, two days before, three days before they make a graph. 13:05 You can just plot like all of them. 13:07 You can plot like seven thousand times when a corporation had bad news. 13:11 And you see the stock price falls like a few days before and then it falls on the news also. 13:17 But there's always the information always leaks out. 13:22 In a way, it's a good thing it does. 13:23 This is often seen as people people see this as unfair, but actually it is restoring fairness. 13:31 I don't think I'm going to make a sale on this anytime soon because the entire world is convinced of X, Y, Z. 13:37 And I'm convinced of the opposite. 13:40 But really, if you think about it, someone who, for example, let's say someone wanted to make a like, you know, a tech company has bad news and someone knows the insider knows that the news is going to be bad. 13:58 But meanwhile, you have a completely separate person, some grandma or something, and they just want to buy diversified S&P 500. 14:04 They want to have like exposure to the tech sector. 14:07 When the insider shorts the stock and decreases the price, that means the grandma gets a better deal. 14:14 She gets a more fair deal, actually. 14:16 She can get more. 14:17 She gets to buy at a lower price. 14:19 And same for someone who wants to sell if the news is good and it's reversed. 14:22 So really, the insiders actually improve the prices so that all the people who are not speculating get the fair price. 14:29 But I know everyone in the world is convinced of the opposite of this. 14:32 So I don't think I'm going to convince anyone anytime soon. 14:34 No, not necessarily. 14:36 You know, this has been I we have a lot of, you know, in the market friends and so on. 14:43 And they're, you know, even naked short selling. 14:45 They go, well, that's a, you know, helps with the price discovery of, you know, yada, yada. 14:49 I mean, of course, all this stuff gets abused, but I've had it explained to me. 14:53 But the what I'm looking for is the answer to the question of why. 15:00 What was it that you were doing? 15:02 Well, when you as an economist and you're an academic and you write an article, 15:09 you get tapped by Roger Ver to come over and you need to stop wasting your time over there. 15:14 Come over here. 15:15 Well, when you come over and the first thing, one of the first things that you realize is that you can have a prediction market. 15:21 Well, a prediction market isn't necessarily AI predicting or whatever. 15:27 You provided a mechanism, a platform for the real price to be discovered by the participation of people. 15:34 Am I correct? 15:35 That's right. 15:36 Okay. 15:37 So this is, well, it's just another market. 15:40 You know, it's just competing market and it's faster and cheaper. 15:43 But to do that, you need a good crypto. 15:47 Which crypto? 15:48 One crypto, this crypto, that crypto. 15:51 Now, Roger, having problems with the block size with Bitcoin, says, we need to fork it. 15:58 We go Bitcoin cash, which the Bitcoin community freaked because he called it Bitcoin something, you know. 16:04 So you have Bitcoin cash that has a larger block size so it can have more transactions to revive what the promise was of being cheap transactions, fast, secure. 16:20 And so on. 16:21 Well, it kept smaller blocks kind of took it away from that. 16:25 And you can see why. 16:26 So that the miners and other people, they make more money and sailor, go sell your children, buy more Bitcoin. 16:33 We're all going to get rich as if that was the goal. 16:35 The goal was peer to peer digital cash. 16:38 That was the goal. 16:39 In fact, that's what it said. 16:40 Okay. 16:41 But then those get charged. 16:43 So then you come out and you're saying, well, we're going to need to reduce the block size down to, you know, 400 kilobytes. 16:54 We're going to half it. 16:55 You know, from what the original go. 16:57 We're going to go the other way. 16:59 Okay. 17:00 Let's start there. 17:02 Explain it to me, Paul. 17:04 Why? 17:05 What is the benefit? 17:06 Why are you doing this and why are you reducing the block size? 17:11 Well, I think, you know, even the four megabyte blocks, which is the current BTC. 17:18 If you include the block, all the block weight and you include like I don't want to get into the details, but like so when Bitcoin cash. 17:25 Oh, please do. 17:26 Okay. 17:27 So like four. 17:28 Okay. 17:29 One megabyte, four megabytes, eight megabytes. 17:31 Like that's that's not enough to scale to the whole planet's transaction rate. 17:39 You really need to go much bigger than that. 17:41 And I have gone that that big direction on the L2s. 17:45 So the L2s have lots of block space. 17:48 Okay. 17:49 L1, L2. 17:50 You got to you got to tell people what that means. 17:53 The L2 is like optional. 17:54 And my conception of the so the original like if you ask most Bitcoiners, they think of L2 as the lightning network. 18:01 To me, I was very interested in the lightning network like in 10 years ago. 18:06 I was one of the first people to be excited about the lightning network. 18:09 And I was also one of the earlier people, definitely not the first, but I was one of the earlier people to say that actually this is not that great. 18:19 And so I can talk about the lightning network for hours if you want. 18:22 But that's how much time. 18:24 Let's do it this way. 18:25 How much time do you got? 18:26 I'll go to your board or board. 18:28 I don't care. 18:29 Okay. 18:30 I mean, I've got a basically like another 90 minutes. 18:33 All right. 18:34 So, you know, let's just relax. 18:35 Don't, you know, get all in a hurry. 18:37 We can go ahead and get through all this because this is important. 18:41 We haven't done a lot of this for a while. 18:44 You know, going through this, I did nine hour shows to have explained to me so that I can explain it to people. 18:51 Lightning network. 18:52 What the problem with Bitcoin was is that to do these are master card. 18:56 You can get like a gazillion transactions a minute. 18:59 I mean, you know, there's really no limit. 19:02 But to have Bitcoin and crypto work and it be secure and it be, you know, you're have your own custody of stuff. 19:11 You're not having a bank account. 19:12 You do it on your own phone to kind of there's a lot of other features. 19:16 Well, you have how many transactions can you do every 10 minutes? 19:21 Well, there's a block of information. 19:23 How many transactions is it can take it to start it at one megabyte, which is are you kidding me? 19:28 You know, so then technology expands speed, Internet processing power. 19:35 All I mean, you know, one megabyte might be 10. 19:38 I mean, you know, what's the difference? 19:39 Well, then you have the small block, big block people argue with each other. 19:43 You have smaller transactions. 19:46 Well, that means people can hold a lot of the data. 19:49 They can, you know, do it themselves. 19:51 They put it on their computer. 19:53 You know it. 19:55 But it clogs up the system and the process, that number of popular crypto that you want to have all these transactions. 20:06 You know, you can only do so many every 10 minutes. 20:09 So what happens is the price of the transaction goes up, the kind of supply and demand it pushes down. 20:15 How many they do? 20:16 They do larger dollar amounts because it's not really based on, you know, the value of the transaction. 20:22 It's just it's a transaction. 20:24 There's five dollars or five million. 20:26 You know, it's just, you know, it's a transaction. 20:28 So what happens is the argument that a lot of people were making to compete with credit cards and so on. 20:35 You need to have a much bigger block to put more transactions into. 20:40 Well, for whatever reason. 20:42 Yeah, but but then the miners don't make a bunch of money. 20:46 I mean, we make some money. 20:47 We won't make money. 20:48 So you go, OK, OK, OK. 20:51 Well, then you have the forking of Bitcoin and then Bitcoin cash and this Satoshi vision and on and on and on and on. 21:00 Diamond, gold, whatever, 15 gazillion, because you can do it. 21:03 So as that goes off, they increase the transactions by increasing the block size that how many can put in there. 21:12 It starts working. 21:13 All right. 21:14 We're good to do that. 21:15 Bitcoin wanted to go the other way. 21:17 Nope, nope, nope. 21:18 But the transaction fees got thirty six dollars, sixty dollars to send five dollars. 21:24 Definitely. 21:25 It wasn't bubblegum money. 21:26 You know, Tom Vase is a good friend, but he's a maxi to the point. 21:30 Just piss me in Max Keiser and all these guys. 21:32 I'm like, you're killing me. 21:34 You know, you're not going to have wide adoption. 21:37 Grandma is not going to use it if it costs, you know, twenty dollars a transaction to buy a cup of coffee. 21:43 That is not what was promised. 21:47 But they want to do it anyway. 21:48 And then here comes the. 21:50 All right. 21:51 You want speed. 21:52 You want cheap. 21:53 We're going to do the lightning network. 21:54 Pizza Hut's going to have its own lightning node, its own network. 21:59 You got like an account, you know, with Pizza Hut or Wal-Mart or what. 22:03 I mean, you keep opening up all. 22:04 It's more like bank branches. 22:06 So then you're going to look at this. 22:09 You're just shoehorning crypto into the legacy banking system and, you know, calling it good. 22:14 I'm like, no, no, no, no. 22:16 I see what you're doing. 22:17 So lightning network. 22:18 We had good friends and so on. 22:19 They got their nodes up and served. 22:22 But it never really worked. 22:25 It didn't go. 22:26 Then you get the SegWit. 22:27 You get to all these other off chain solutions. 22:31 The chain, the block chain that has all the information. 22:34 Then you have kind of a sidechain over here that can eventually someday when you want to will settle on to the main chain. 22:42 So I'm going. 22:43 This is this is you might as well just call him, you know, the Bank of America chase and, you know, whatever. 22:50 We're getting right back where you want. 22:51 And then the government wants to have KYC and they want to see everything. 22:55 It's just OK. 22:57 I'm out. 22:59 You're saying you're a fan of these sidechains to do other things different ways. 23:06 And I'm going, OK. 23:08 Why? 23:10 Demonstrate it to me. 23:12 What is this? 23:14 Equally catchy thing that you're doing. 23:17 Explain. 23:18 So when you say I have to do that because when you're talking to the audience with a lightning network, they go, what the hell is a lightning network? 23:25 And why was it even there? 23:27 It was to speed up Bitcoin, you know, but you could increase the memory size. 23:32 Now I don't want to do that. 23:34 Why? 23:35 You want to reduce it. 23:36 More side coin. 23:37 Yes, stuff going on. 23:39 So explain it from there. 23:41 In theory, the lightning network would have allowed more transactions to take place without increasing the block size. 23:50 And one reason why people didn't want to increase the block size is because they didn't want the like they didn't want it to be more difficult to run a full node because the larger the block size is, the more data has to be sent, stored, processed, etc. 24:08 In practice, though, one of the reasons why the lightning network doesn't work, there are actually quite a few reasons. 24:13 But one is that it turns out to be very difficult for normal people to run the lightning node because you have to sync the full L1 node. 24:20 And then you have to have this other node. 24:22 You have to have these liquidity. 24:25 L1 and L2. 24:26 You got to explain at the levels, right? 24:28 Yeah. 24:29 L1 and L2 refers to like layer two. 24:33 And so the idea is that you would have something like you could have. 24:37 So like if two people want to pay each other, like maybe both of them have a checking account at Wells Fargo. 24:43 So they if they're both on like a Wells Fargo app, hypothetically, or if they're both on Venmo or if they're both on whatever. 24:51 If you want to send to another customer within the thing, then it's quite easy because at Wells Fargo, they just update the. 25:00 So but this is like you can imagine a tiny little triangle here being drawn between the 25:05 person A and person B, both of them at Wells Fargo. 25:09 Then if you wanted to pay someone and they have a bank account at Chase, but you're at 25:15 Wells Fargo, then Wells Fargo and Chase are going to keep track of how much money people 25:21 are paying to each other. 25:22 And they use basically either a clearinghouse or they use the Federal Reserve. 25:27 You can imagine this. 25:28 So the triangle has all these different layers. 25:31 The Federal Reserve is basically a bank where all of the customers are themselves banks. 25:37 So it's a bank of banks. 25:40 And money has this property where it's like a big hierarchical triangle. 25:47 So this is the idea is that layer one can only do so many transactions. 25:51 And, you know, layer one can do quite a few transactions even with the currently with 25:56 the four megabyte post SegWit limit. 25:59 You know, you can do something like two and a half thousand transactions every 10 minutes. 26:04 And there's a drop in the bucket. 26:07 Right. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the planetary transaction rate, which is 26:12 something like 10 trillion transactions per year. 26:17 So it would be better to put them all in transactions per second. 26:22 But it's something like, I don't know, it's in the like a hundred thousand range. 26:27 It's a lot. 26:29 Transactions per second. And then Visa is something like 30 to 50 thousand transactions 26:34 per second. And then the L1 original one megabyte BTC block size is something like five 26:40 to seven transactions per second. 26:43 So that that's not enough. 26:45 The idea was the Lightning Network would solve this problem. 26:47 It's my view that the Lightning Network does not solve this problem at all. 26:52 The Bitcoin Cash people, the large block people, they thought that we can increase. 26:58 We can periodically use the hard fork to increase the L1 block size. 27:04 A lot of people are not persuaded by this for several reasons. 27:08 And I think. I know what some of those reasons are, but maybe it was just also bad luck or 27:15 bad timing. One problem is that when you increase the L1 block size, which is what Bitcoin 27:23 Cash did, this is mandatory data that everyone on the network has to download. 27:28 So a lot of people felt that this was an unjust imposition on the people who were running 27:40 the full nodes. It increases their costs, filling up their hard drive space. 27:45 It's not like memory has gotten more expensive. 27:48 I mean, it's gotten so much cheaper. 27:50 That argument didn't really fly with me. 27:52 Bandwidth was the bottleneck resource. 27:55 These things are very different now. 27:57 So that was basically the block size war was really basically 10 years ago. 28:00 It was 2015 through 2017 or so. 28:03 And back then, not only was everything more expensive, but the ratios of things were more 28:09 expensive. So bandwidth was the most scarce resource of all. 28:14 And it was the bottleneck resource. 28:16 But actually now bandwidth has increased so much that even to process all the transactions 28:21 in the world, the transactions are smaller now and the bandwidth speeds have increased. 28:28 And now that is not even the bottleneck resource anymore. 28:31 So actually, it's quite possible to use something that is a blockchain structure to scale 28:40 cryptocurrency payments. 28:42 You know, the one thing that, you know, in that when you're talking about if you got 28:47 a Wells Fargo account and you're inside that lightning network or that little, you know, 28:53 club of transactions, then you want to go to Chase. 28:57 Well, how do you go to there? 28:59 We got to settle on this, go to that and so on. 29:02 And they see this and they track that. 29:04 I go, yes, they do. 29:06 This is something where the argument for privacy is lightning wasn't really I mean, you know, 29:12 you could get regulated and know your customer. 29:15 Yeah. And I money laundering stuff. 29:17 You're going through an approved exchange or network or node. 29:22 Here comes the man. 29:23 Uncle Sam wants to explain it to you. 29:25 So the whole point was peer to peer digital cash transactions. 29:35 Boom. Push the button. 29:37 You got it. I don't. 29:38 We're done. 29:39 Well, we need to have where you have a bunch of them, you know, the capacity to do that. 29:44 Well, it's gotten to it. 29:46 Well, the memory size, you know, people want to store it on, 29:49 have a full node that they can check and no double spin, whatever, because they feel like it. 29:54 They want to doubt, which is a cool trait. 29:56 You get to be the bank, your own bank, you know, whatever. 29:59 And you have all the transactions. 30:01 Now, this was important to us because about a decade ago, 30:04 we had a vending machine that took Bitcoin. 30:09 It took cash and it would give change in either one. 30:14 You put in a Bitcoin, you get your gizmo and you can get your change in cash or you put in cash. 30:20 You get your change in Bitcoin. 30:22 It was CNN was there and they did a big thing on it. 30:25 Woo. The money left. 30:27 You know, we have. 30:28 So we're at Porcupine Freedom Festival. 30:31 Derek Slopey did. 30:32 But to do it and not get double spent on, which is like you, you buy it and then you cancel it. 30:38 But you get this and there's a delay. 30:40 You know, this kind of stuff. 30:42 There's some security issues. 30:44 If you don't have a full node to know, you know what is and isn't. 30:48 So on the blockchain. 30:50 So he downloads the he made a full node out of that had a microwave cell to a tower communication of kind. 30:59 And we're up at Porcupine Freedom Festival using Bitcoin and cash. 31:05 And I think I don't know if they had a credit card thing, but, you know, Bitcoin and cash to buy, 31:11 I don't know, camping stuff and widgets and silver and bullets and whatever the hell else we had in there. 31:17 But that's why you needed a full node. 31:19 OK, so there we understand there is a use case for having a full node. 31:25 I get it. 31:27 But then they say, well, we'll do a full node with all these trends. 31:30 Oh, my God. 31:32 Well, now you get 16 terabyte, you know, memory thing for a dollar ninety five. 31:37 I mean, I'm just really, you know, come on. 31:40 That is not the argument anymore. 31:42 What the argument was, it was control. 31:45 I could see this. 31:46 You can sit there and go, oh, no, we got to duplicate where they can make. 31:50 Where can you make the money? 31:51 VCs want to invest in me making money. 31:53 I want to have me make money. 31:55 Minor thing of water. 31:57 How do I do that? 31:58 Well, we keep them block size small. 32:00 Option is to have a sidechain to have Bitcoin traded on something else that would settle on the main chain later, if ever. 32:08 And when whatever then. 32:11 OK, I see you get the opportunity. 32:13 You want to be able to do that. 32:14 Got permission slip from Uncle Sam. 32:16 But guess what? 32:17 We get to see. 32:18 OK, so this is it's not. 32:20 It keeps getting steered away every time innovation steers it away from peer to peer transaction. 32:30 That's my concern. 32:32 I think that it was the same concern that, you know, people had about the unlimited block size L1, like the large block L1. 32:40 People were worried that they were worried that there were the nodes would the cost of the full node would increase forever. 32:50 And there would be no limit to how expensive it became. 32:53 And eventually there'd be fewer and fewer nodes. 32:55 And then these nodes would be very easy for someone to, you know, subpoena or threaten or something like that. 33:03 So I think everyone was worried about the. 33:07 What you could call centralization, which is to say making it hard for you to run your own full node. 33:14 And what they thought was, well, lightning will be we'll have the cheap node and we'll have high transaction throughput. 33:21 But it turns out the lightning node, you know, in practice is actually harder to run than the large block node anyway. 33:25 So that didn't even work. 33:27 Yeah, no, it never worked right. 33:28 You go to people that would do it at pizza restaurants or this. 33:32 It was always some problem. 33:33 And then SegWit. 33:34 What was what was different about SegWit? 33:36 Explain that. 33:37 SegWit was an upgrade to Bitcoin that it happened to also be a mandatory increase in the block size from one megabyte to four megabytes. 33:46 So it's kind of ironic that way. 33:48 It happened around during the block size war as a part of a kind of compromise says, well, this is also a block size increase. 33:56 But the primary purpose of SegWit was to make it. 34:00 So it was basically to support the lightning network by removing this thing, transaction viability, which was going to interfere with the lightning network. 34:08 And so, yeah, we did this upgrade and it was very contentious. 34:13 And there's not really that much more to say about it. 34:18 If we did this one upgrade, then we did this taproot upgrade. 34:21 But there have been very few upgrades since. 34:23 So Bitcoin used to do more of this upgrade called the soft fork we used to do on average to a year. 34:31 It didn't happen like regularly like that. 34:33 But we did 14, I think, in the first seven years of Bitcoin. 34:37 And then in the last seven years, we've only done SegWit and taproot. 34:41 So it's kind of like a pulling up the ladder. 34:45 You climb up the ladder and get to the next level. 34:48 Then you can pull the ladder up behind you. 34:50 And we haven't had any since then. 34:53 Well, tell me. 34:54 OK, now I want to get on to some of the other stuff. 34:57 I want to take you know, we take our time. 34:59 But the Bitcoin cash, when it came, we're just going to increase the size. 35:04 Right. 35:05 So that we can have more transactions. 35:08 We have much faster than when Bitcoin started, much faster processing. 35:14 We have much larger storage. 35:17 We have all these other arguments. 35:19 It'll crash. 35:20 It will never be out. 35:21 Shut up. 35:22 You know, I don't want to talk about that. 35:24 It just pisses me off. 35:25 So, of course, we have, you know, advances in technology and memory storage and processing and so on. 35:31 So increase the size of the block. 35:35 Well, no, no, no. 35:37 Because something, you know, whatever. 35:39 It didn't hold water with me. 35:41 But Bitcoin cash, you know, it takes off. 35:45 It doesn't take off. 35:46 It's in use. 35:47 I probably use it more than anything else just because it freaking works. 35:51 You know, that cost me a gazillion dollars. 35:53 You know, it it's fast. 35:55 It cost me a nickel or something. 35:58 I mean, you know, cool. 36:00 That's all I wanted. 36:01 Digital cash between. 36:03 Now, I got others, but, you know, I just wanted something that works. 36:06 I didn't have to worry about, you know, transaction fees kicking my ass. 36:10 When you needed it the most. 36:12 It was always with, man, I need to do some trading. 36:15 Woo! 36:16 Not today. 36:17 I mean, you know, so you miss out on a lot of opportunities. 36:20 So I'm going, all right. 36:22 How successful was Bitcoin cash? 36:25 Was it successful? 36:26 And based success on its utility, its peer-to-peer ability, has it gone bad? 36:33 Is it still useful? 36:34 Are there other privacy coins that are coming? 36:36 We'll get into privacy in a second here. 36:38 But tell me what the experience was in the community from both sides on the fork with Bitcoin cash. 36:46 Yeah, I was never a supporter of Bitcoin cash per se, 36:50 although I could recognize at the time that they were right about a lot of things. 36:54 So first of all, they were right that if you just had more block space, that would be useful, 36:58 and that would solve a lot of problems, and that would help scale the network, 37:02 and that would help people make real transactions on the network that pay a real mining fee. 37:08 So they were right about all that. 37:11 Bitcoin cash was right about the problem of developer capture. 37:15 Some of the problems with Bitcoin cash were that they didn't really solve those problems. 37:19 So even though Bitcoin cash was probably right that if you only had the one megabyte of block space and nothing else, 37:27 then that wouldn't work. 37:29 But all they did was change that one megabyte to eight, 37:33 and then they knew full well that they'd have to change that eight to something else later. 37:37 So in order to change it from one to eight, they used this technique, the hard fork, 37:45 which is a very dangerous technique that I'm about to use. 37:48 But I make no pretense about how it's going to be a very hard – 37:55 when you hard fork, you create a whole new asset, and you create a whole new community, 37:59 and you create a whole new rivalrous system. 38:02 So anyway, Bitcoin cash, they were right about a lot of things. 38:06 Ultimately though, I think their idea wasn't very good because the idea was just one megabyte to eight megabytes, 38:13 and that eight megabytes is not enough to scale to the whole planet. 38:20 There's no reason it can't go to 100. 38:23 Right, but then why not just do one to 100 back then? 38:27 And then they kind of said like as we fill up, we'll just keep changing it. 38:30 But now you've got a person in the mix who is saying I'm going to change it at this point and this other point. 38:37 So these were flaws in the idea, I think. 38:42 And this is partly – so of course, Bitcoin cash is a success in that it's still very highly ranked on coin market cap. 38:50 It's worth billions of dollars. 38:52 But I think it's – I think money has very strong network effects, 38:58 and so it's much more comfortable to be number one on the leaderboard than it is to be like number – like 155 or something. 39:07 Because in intense arena of competition, it will always be very hard for the smaller people to always be trying to die out. 39:17 It's a little bit like language where a lot of – I think something like 40 or 50 languages die out every 10 years or something, 39:25 and English becomes more and more dominant. 39:28 The rich get richer with network effects. 39:32 So eventually something becomes a standard like the QWERTY keyboard. 39:37 I think that's very difficult to survive if you are not number one. 39:42 So I think it's hard for Bitcoin cash to not be number one. 39:46 Now, of course, only one coin can be number one, and it's a very high standard just to say it's all or nothing. 39:52 You know, this is – I want to dwell on that a little bit. 39:55 Number one for what? 39:58 You know, number one in transactions, number one in value, number one in – 40:02 so my thing is I don't want to be with number one that's the most surveilled, most – 40:08 I remember when Bitcoin really started taking off, and I guess it's 13, 14, 15, around in there, 40:14 and I have a guy, he goes, Ernie, I've got to come on your show, and he had a company called Dark Data Services, 40:21 and he says, you know, I'm Liberty Community guy, you know, super geek IT, whatever, 40:27 and my job, my company works for corporations and governments tracking Bitcoin transactions down to the device. 40:39 I see you, and I want to make sure the Liberty Community knows if they don't do it right, 40:44 don't be thinking you're private out there doing it. 40:47 Well, I see everything. 40:49 You guys think you're private, and you're not. 40:51 And I'm going, okay, there's that. 40:53 You know, let's talk about that. 40:55 So then you have all this – we'll do this. 40:59 Be number one. 41:00 Number one in what? 41:01 GoldmanSucks.gov coin approval? 41:04 So I'm doing – you know, we're going to be having privacy coins. 41:08 We're kind of focused on Xano right now for a little bit. 41:11 We've got, you know, a portal whole network thing that we're interested in. 41:14 We get a bunch of Dogecoin just to be funny and screw them when we go to Mars. 41:19 I mean, you know, it's just whatever reason you get to have whatever. 41:23 Well, some of these you get at, you know, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, you know, 3 cents, 6 cents, 41:28 and all it has to do, and I double my money. 41:31 Well, there's always a pump and dump thing out there. 41:33 Well, if we do this, we'll get some – all we need is a little bit of interest for a little bit of time, 41:37 and boom, made a bunch of money. 41:39 I see that all the time. 41:41 You're going, OK, what is this? 41:43 What wall is your ladder on? 41:45 It doesn't matter how great your ladder or how tall your ladder is if it's on the wrong wall. 41:50 So I need to know what wall you're on. 41:52 What are you offering? 41:54 What are you competing with? 41:55 What is it? 41:56 Now, you're going, because it's number one, we're going to do BTC. 42:01 We're going to do Bitcoin, classic Bitcoin, whatever the heck you call it. 42:04 Bitcoin, BTC. 42:06 We're going to take and use that network effect of, 42:09 everybody's got hard fork because if you have Bitcoin, all of a sudden now you also got eCash. 42:17 So you're going, all right, let's do that. 42:20 Now, all those – what are you bitching about? 42:23 You don't like it? 42:24 Sell what we forked off and buy more of that and shut up. 42:28 I mean, what do you care? 42:30 So this is – but that's the argument that's always done, 42:33 and then they whine, bitch, and moan that you're diluting something. 42:36 They don't like it for whatever reason. 42:39 Let me finish this. 42:40 This is a question that you're doing this hard fork from that because you say the network effect. 42:47 It has so much out there, and everybody would have it, and all of a sudden, boom, they got it in their wallets. 42:53 And then you got to get it on the exchanges, and they want to do it, and we'll see about that. 42:59 But doing this provides what benefit to me? 43:04 Am I getting more privacy? 43:06 Am I getting less KYC and international money laundering examination? 43:13 Do I have a sidechain that's a bank? 43:15 Do I have to totally agree? 43:17 Do they know who I am? 43:18 Do I have to have a phone number? 43:20 Do I have to have an email? 43:22 Do I have to – you see my point? 43:24 I do. 43:25 Why do it? 43:26 Why on BTC? 43:27 Why fork? 43:29 What is the benefit to me of privacy, libertarian, anarchist, hardcore, voluntarist, make peer-to-peer digital cash 43:37 that has been the promise from the freaking beginning? 43:40 I've interviewed all the guys many times. 43:43 Andreas Antonopoulos, Vitalik, Roger, Eric Voorhees. 43:47 You know what I mean? 43:48 On and on and on and on and on. 43:50 I get it. 43:51 Now, the thing is is it breaks down into incentives. 43:55 You know, the Bitcoin maximalist is because we're maximalists because we're maximalists 44:00 and I'm getting paid to be a maximalist and my value goes up and we're all going to get rich 44:04 as opposed to being free. 44:06 I'm going, I want the peer-to-peer cash. 44:08 It works. 44:09 Boom. 44:10 Done. 44:11 And you're forking off of a Bitcoin that's already been, you know, captured, you know, whatever my opinion. 44:17 So, with that perspective, I need you to explain to me what you're forking, why, 44:24 what the different features are, how it would work, and then I got more questions. 44:30 Go. 44:31 All right. 44:32 Just that. 44:33 No, I'm just kidding. 44:34 So, these are really great questions. 44:36 So, it's hard to know what order to answer them all. 44:39 I'm just going to try to shotgun them all, but it's like, okay, why BTC? 44:44 Why stick with BTC after it's been captured as you put it? 44:49 I think, you know, there's a big difference between like some of the loud personalities 44:54 and then even the BTC owner. 44:57 So, I think the set of owners is actually a huge number of people. 45:01 I see the different cryptocurrencies as kind of like they contain within them a, not only 45:07 do you have a selfish kind of capitalist asset that you own, but there's also a kind of common 45:14 project, like they have a conception of the public good. 45:17 They're kind of like ideologies, so to speak, and there's a little bit of like a selfless, 45:21 like you think the world would be a better place if we adopted this. 45:25 And I think that most people, even if they disagree with BTC or if they don't totally 45:30 understand every decision, a lot of people have just decided to just hold their nose 45:35 and kind of like stick with BTC because, you know, life is easier in a big herd, you know, 45:41 strength in numbers. 45:42 That was an original Bitcoin motto. 45:45 With respect to cash, I think this also ties in with that, you know, whether or not something 45:51 is cash does depend slightly on how recognizable it is. 45:56 So, if you were to travel to Japan and you had, you know, euro bills and coins and you 46:03 tried to pay with, you know, euro coins in a Japanese shop, I'm not sure that would work. 46:09 So, I think part of the definition of cash is whether or not people recognize it. 46:15 And so I certainly applaud all the different people who have made a new coin. 46:19 Like, I applaud the Monero people. 46:21 I applaud Bitcoin Cash. 46:23 I applaud all these, you know, Dash and all these other people who have made a different 46:27 coin. 46:29 And I think all of that's great. 46:33 And, you know, dissent is very admirable. 46:37 And so is research and development. 46:39 And so is, you know, trying out new experiments. 46:44 These are all very good things. 46:46 My problem or my concern is that when you have like it's kind of like splitting the vote 46:52 in a democracy, like when you have all these different altcoins, that reduces the threat 46:59 that each individual one of them poses to, for example, Bitcoin, the number one coin. 47:05 But it also reduces the threat that they pose to the U.S. dollar. 47:09 Because the network effect is so strong, because the stigma for starting a new coin is so 47:18 intense, it's very hard to imagine like these small coins actually making a dent in like 47:26 actually causing a big revolution that we'd all like to have. 47:29 Those of us who are in Bitcoin from the early days. 47:33 So now as to the features, this project is trying to give everyone what they want. 47:42 Now, of course, it's not going to succeed. 47:44 But what it's going to do, the L1, you know, the original layer one is going to be very 47:50 similar to Bitcoin Core, except with the smaller block size. 47:54 So this would be the small block. 47:56 OK, why? 47:58 Well, one reason is there's two reasons, two categories of reason, which is the smaller 48:04 block size actually is easier for it makes it easier to sync, download and synchronize 48:09 the full node, and it makes it easier to hide the physical location of the full node. 48:14 So there's a privacy benefit to that. 48:19 In my conception of all how this works, the layer twos are optional. 48:25 They're kind of like optional plugins, but all of them require the L1. 48:29 So the L1 is like a mandatory piece. 48:31 The L2s are optional. 48:32 So, of course, you would want to lean on the L2s to do the hard work since they are optional. 48:39 You take them or leave them. 48:40 But then the mandatory part you would want to ease up on. 48:45 The second type of reason is that it's good branding, I think, actually, because I kind 48:51 of got the idea from Bitcoin SV where it was Bitcoin Cash was created and then Bitcoin 48:55 SV was like, well, actually, we're the real large blocker chain because we have even larger 48:59 blocks and then this kind of trap Bitcoin Cash in the middle. 49:02 So I thought, well, I could do the same thing. 49:04 I kind of want to push people towards the L2s and off of L1 because, again, if you imagine 49:11 what is the quantity of how many transactions is done between people at Wells Fargo versus 49:19 what is the quantity of transactions done between from Wells Fargo to Bank of America? 49:23 They just settle up at the end of the day with like one transaction per day. 49:26 But there must be many hundreds of thousands transactions within just within the same bank. 49:33 So if most of the transactions are on the L2s, as I envision, the only the when you 49:41 only go into the L1 when you want to save for retirement or you want to travel among 49:46 the different L2s. 49:47 So it's kind of like when you go to the airport and you go to the currency exchange. 49:52 So most transactions are not a currency exchange. 49:56 Most of them are within the currency. 49:58 They start in the United States and they. 50:02 They you know, the merchant is in the US and the purchasers in the US. 50:08 So I just did I took, you know, you're frequently asked or why and I just scrolled it people can pause the video and they can read this if they don't have access. 50:18 Yeah, sure. 50:20 Yes, the hard fork is conceived seen as a very controversial decision, even though it really shouldn't be because it's just giving everyone free money. 50:28 Again, this is partly because I think there's a big difference between the owners. 50:33 There's there's a silent majority, which is the Bitcoin owner. 50:37 And you know, the owners are the ones who are going to decide what they're going to do with the money. 50:41 And they're the ones who are going to decide what they're going to do with it. 50:43 And you know, there's a big difference between the owners. 50:47 There's a silent majority, which is the Bitcoin owner. 50:51 And these are again, if these people care about their privacy, like if they really care about their privacy, they probably don't have like a podcast. 50:56 You know what I mean? They probably their face probably isn't on camera. 50:59 Like they don't really have a voice. 51:00 You know, the real the real Bitcoin is never seen. 51:05 And you have a big difference between these people. 51:07 And then there's kind of like the loud people making a career out of Bitcoin. 51:10 You know, they've always got to have a take or an opinion because they they are their media personality. 51:16 So actually, I think there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there. 51:19 But yeah, the hard fork is really good for the Bitcoin owner, who I think is the silent majority. 51:24 And it's bad for all the visible minority of people who are going to complain on Twitter, because if you really, really care about privacy, you don't even like have a Twitter, right? 51:32 Or you if you do, you don't you don't tell anyone that you're interested in Bitcoin. 51:36 So no one knows that any of this stuff. 51:37 So I think there's actually a very big conflict of interest that is underexplored between the people who own Bitcoin and then the people who make a lot of, you know, people. 51:47 You know, let me tell you what's underexplored, in my opinion, is what the promise was from the beginning, because I'm sure you remember, you know, when crypto comes on, you become aware. 51:57 This is kind of cool. You know, this could be it was fast. 52:02 Cheap transactions. 52:05 Okay. Anonymity between people, peer to peer. 52:13 Cool. What we were doing is right after the revolution in the 08 campaign in 09, we were pushing silver dime cards, you know, educate people on silver and that, you know, pre 64 and earlier dimes were 90% silver. 52:31 They call it junk silver, whatever it was silver. 52:33 So we're going, you put them in a card, laminate it, has a little instruction on the back. 52:38 It's like a business card or a meme or whatever. 52:40 You're not throwing it away because it was getting up to, you know, a dime's worth three, four dollars at the time. 52:46 So I'm just going now it's gazillion. 52:48 But, you know, I'm going, this is what we need is transactable peer to peer, you know, but it doesn't do you any good online, you know. 52:57 So then they start coming up with, well, we're going to have gold and silver tokens. 53:01 Cool. You know, but I still got the third party risk of it's I've seen stuff seized all the time. 53:07 So, you know, this is you get old enough and I can give you a story. 53:11 So I'm going, OK, this peer to peer transaction part, that is what concerns me. 53:20 That is the feature I'm looking for. 53:23 When I have, you know, a lot of the guys I'm rattle off a bunch of big names, but I'm I'm talking to him, ask how is it? 53:30 Well, you had this patch. 53:31 You had this problem. 53:32 You had somebody change that. 53:34 How did that get changed? 53:36 Somebody pushed a button. 53:37 AI is pushing buttons. 53:38 Who's pushing the button? 53:39 Oh, it's the developers. 53:40 Developers? 53:41 Well, who are they? 53:42 How is that done? 53:43 How do you get it adopted? 53:46 How does it get, you know, OK, we made this change and we agree. 53:49 Who's we? 53:50 Oh, the miners and the owners. 53:52 OK, so we got a 51 percent. 53:54 Well, that makes it vulnerable to attack. 53:56 Yeah, but, you know, we are yada, yada, yada, back and forth, back and forth. 54:00 So I'm going, OK, what I'm looking for is the truth. 54:05 Well, then I had to learn a new thing. 54:08 Once I start finding out it's not as anonymous as you say, well, it's pseudo anonymous. 54:14 So then I got to look up the word pseudo in this context. 54:17 What the hell does that mean? 54:18 It means not. 54:20 It's not a not. 54:21 I'm going, you lying sacks of shit. 54:23 Don't sit there and look me in the face and lie to me. 54:26 You know, it is not anonymous unless you know how to use it. 54:30 OK, or how it's being used or other options. 54:34 You screw it. 54:35 Just go to privacy coins. 54:37 You know, we have Xano. 54:39 You get Monero. 54:39 You get, you know, are, you know, pirate chain. 54:42 You get well, at least at a freaking attempt. 54:45 OK, so I'm going, all right. 54:47 So we got that anonymous thing out over there and we're going to be on the exchanges. 54:52 Yeah, that's a ticket. 54:53 And we get a permission slip from the man. 54:56 Oh, we got JD Vance. 54:58 I was at Vegas Bitcoin. 55:00 You know, I went the invitation of Ross and Lynn Oprich, you know, wanted to go. 55:03 But I knew a lot of these people. 55:05 A lot of them are good friends. 55:06 Right off a bunch of maxis. 55:08 You know, I know I'm Ernie. 55:09 We got to get you on board, man. 55:11 Get over here. 55:12 The water's fine. 55:13 You know, look, JD's up on the stage. 55:15 Trump administration, crypto. 55:18 We're all going to get rich. 55:21 Yeah, and surveilled. 55:24 So I'm going, this is you got your ladder on the wrong wall. 55:29 So I'm going, all right. 55:31 Give me a solution. 55:33 So when you do this, eCash forks off of wherever the hell I don't know how it's 55:39 going to maintain privacy up there going. 55:43 I have no idea. 55:45 But we have. 55:47 Yes. 55:47 So you brought up a lot of things, which is great. 55:51 But so the problem of developer capture, 55:54 that's part of what I invented this thing, Drivechain to solve, because it says if 55:59 if the developers of your coin make a mistake, you can just escape to a 56:03 different L2 without consulting them. 56:06 So the idea is that developers compete 56:08 and you and the user wins and they take advantage of this. 56:12 So 56:13 this includes if they if you want to go on a different block size, 56:16 so if they set the block size too high or too low, all these different L2 chains can 56:20 have different block size, they also can have different features. 56:24 So one of the L2 chains that we have. 56:27 And it's in our test software now is a privacy L2 that is basically based on Z 56:34 cash, and so you get a Z address that's reusable and which hides the sender, 56:38 the receiver and the amount. 56:41 And in that way, it has very good privacy. 56:46 Even when Bitcoin was itself invented, it had you know, it was a big advance 56:50 in privacy because previously people had to have, you know, email, phone, 56:53 you had to have an account, you had to log into the server. 56:57 And so even when Bitcoin was it wasn't as 56:59 private as people thought in the beginning, but it was still give it a try. 57:03 And then it opened the door to these other privacy coins. 57:05 And then one of them. 57:07 It was Zcash, did all this research into Zk 57:12 zero knowledge proofs and. 57:16 And so we borrowed that for one of the L2s that we have in our test network. 57:21 So those people who want a private network can use that one. 57:26 And then they get the same. 57:28 Since it's the same coin, 57:31 they can then withdraw it or send it to a different L2 just with the software, 57:35 without any, you know, without any humans. 57:37 So that's also private in a way. 57:40 In a way, see, I need I need to for you to focus on eCash. 57:45 Now you do the fork. 57:49 And I all of a sudden I got, you know, the wallet. 57:52 A lot of times it's a good idea. 57:54 I know 57:57 you know, air bits guys that are now what edge, you know, and you have 58:03 Paul, you know, I consider a friend and if he likes it, boom, it goes on. 58:08 Didn't take long for Zeno to hit 58:12 edge wallet. And I asked him, Adam, I'm like, man, that was pretty fast. 58:16 Why? Because they knew what they were doing. 58:18 They solved the problem. 58:19 I could see it had value. 58:21 It's rock and roll. 58:22 Boom. If you have, you know, a hard fork that 58:27 solves a problem that's easy to integrate that, you know, boom, 58:30 you start getting on watch, boom, you start getting on exchanges. 58:34 It's not guaranteed, though. 58:36 You know, so this is then you go, well, we have our own wallet. 58:39 Oh, yeah. I get to have another one. 58:41 You know, so I'm just this is I need to know the immediate benefit. 58:47 I do this and I get what I get more transactions a second. 58:52 I get more privacy. 58:53 I get or I just get another coin we can pump and dump. 58:56 I'm just like, what are you doing? 58:59 Why are you doing this? 59:00 What is this the service to me? 59:03 Not some general. Well, you get to have, you know, 59:05 it's not so big of a, you know, a node that you have and you can manage. 59:10 Yeah. Why? 59:11 Why do I want to do that? 59:12 You know, I want to have digital cash that I can peer to peer. 59:17 It's done. It's private. 59:18 And I'm out. Why else would I do a fork? 59:22 What is the point? 59:24 Why are you doing it? 59:25 Solving what problem? 59:27 Right. 59:27 So you say that you want, you know, digital cash. 59:31 You want you want X, Y, Z. 59:32 But in practice, that what that really means is that you have 59:37 chosen a specific piece of full node software to run that's run by certain 59:41 developers and over and over again, we've seen that. 59:46 There are disputes and disagreements among the different, 59:51 you know, among technical people as to what the software should do in the block 59:55 size war is just one example of that. 59:57 And the fight for privacy is another example for that, 1:00:01 where there was this stuff was proposed with Zcash. 1:00:03 And a lot of people said we can't bring 1:00:06 this to Bitcoin because it's too private. 1:00:08 We won't be able to audit the 21 million coin limit. 1:00:11 So the point is, there's a lot of disagreement. 1:00:13 You know, when you start, it's easy to start a new coin, 1:00:16 but it'll be very small. 1:00:18 And then in practice, the coin will grow 1:00:20 to a certain point and then there will be these disagreements. 1:00:24 And then someone will just create a new coin. 1:00:26 And we need something where when there's a disagreement, 1:00:30 everyone can stay in the same economic unit, the same economic coin. 1:00:35 So that's the difference between this idea, the Drivechain idea that I invented. 1:00:40 And 1:00:42 just going with either one, 1:00:44 either going with a world of altcoins or going with a world where you expect your 1:00:50 one coin to be infallible, perfect coin for everyone. 1:00:54 Because I think that, you know, different people have different. 1:00:58 They're in different situations, they have different needs and different wants. 1:01:01 And so the question is, can we try? 1:01:03 How can we accommodate the fact that all of these people are very different? 1:01:07 Some of them have different Internet speed. 1:01:08 Some of them really need the full node. 1:01:11 Other people really don't need a full node and they could use SPV. 1:01:15 So people are very different, but some people really need privacy. 1:01:18 Some people don't. 1:01:19 Some people want to invent a new feature. 1:01:23 They wanted Vitalik, wanted to basically invent the EVM, the virtual machine. 1:01:28 But other people said, well, that's not a feature and we don't want that. 1:01:31 So the question of how to resolve 1:01:34 disagreement is, I think, a very valuable 1:01:40 it's a very valuable attribute. 1:01:41 And I think it's possible that it is. 1:01:45 The attribute that draws the line between 1:01:48 the surviving single surviving coin and all of the failed coins. 1:01:53 So I think it's a pretty big deal. 1:01:55 Now, there's no guarantee that I'm right about that, of course, but. 1:01:58 Well, you know, I need to I need to understand the the use case. 1:02:04 You know, what is it? What do you say you do here? 1:02:07 We're doing you know, we've got five gazillion cryptos. 1:02:09 I mean, that's one thing, you know, 1:02:12 Peter Schiff comes on quite a bit and then, you know, his thing, you know, 1:02:16 tokenized gold and freaking I can't believe it's going to go to all the zero. 1:02:20 And, you know, what? But the 1:02:23 I'm looking at the features that I was promised from the beginning. 1:02:32 You know, I just turned 65. 1:02:35 I've been in the Liberty community for a long time. 1:02:37 I've seen all that we we did e-gold back 1:02:40 when we first, you know, started our show back in the early 2000s. 1:02:44 We were doing the e-gold thing. 1:02:46 We've been doing the dime card thing. 1:02:48 We've been doing the silver thing. 1:02:49 We do the crypto thing. 1:02:51 We go to different cryptos. 1:02:52 I'm looking for a solution. 1:02:55 To what? 1:02:57 To surveillance, to third party risk, to speed, to cheapness. 1:03:03 Crypto, we can program that. 1:03:06 I go, well, but we need. 1:03:09 This thing, we need this network, we need to be, you know, 1:03:13 on the top of the number one of this feature of this is how we're going to do 1:03:16 it in the wallet of whatever, you know, whatever. 1:03:19 What do I get? 1:03:21 I'm telling you, Paul, I've been through this stuff a gazillion times. 1:03:25 What am I getting? 1:03:28 But I tried to explain it, right. 1:03:30 Which is that, you know, am I getting privacy? 1:03:33 Am I getting privacy? Yes. 1:03:35 But really, the problem that the drive 1:03:37 production idea solves is this problem that there will eventually be 1:03:40 disagreement over what the software should do. 1:03:43 So you have a sort of future proof, 1:03:46 you have competition among different developers, they can each implement their 1:03:49 ideas, you can just wait, you can sit back and wait. 1:03:53 So it's basically lets you, you know, launch something that is like an altcoin. 1:03:57 It has a new tech stack. 1:03:59 So, for example, if we had this during the block size war. 1:04:02 If we had had this back during the block 1:04:05 size war, there would have been a one megabyte Bitcoin core. 1:04:08 And then there could have been an eight megabyte L2. 1:04:11 This would not have split the community into Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash. 1:04:14 They would everyone would be in the same network. 1:04:17 People would probably have remained friends. 1:04:19 There would have been no like competition in a bad way between the two projects. 1:04:26 But there would have been competition in a good way, which is like Roger would have 1:04:29 been giving everyone he would be handing out five dollars in Bitcoin cash to 1:04:33 everyone, except instead of Bitcoin cash, it would have just been like basically on 1:04:36 this new blockchain that's kind of like would take on the role of the Lightning 1:04:39 Network, the Lightning Network would probably have been tried. 1:04:43 In BTC, but then quickly abandoned because it really is just, you know, 1:04:49 what they call nerd sniping and it's just like developer kind of make work projects. 1:04:54 So even though they probably would have tried it, they would have just been like, 1:04:57 well, ultimately, this can't compete with the eight megabyte. 1:05:01 OK, so let's go ahead and go eCash. 1:05:04 You know, you do it right. 1:05:05 When do you plan on making the fork? 1:05:07 It's not until August. 1:05:09 Yeah. 1:05:10 So August, you're going to be doing this. 1:05:12 So we got time to, you know, whatever, whatever you're doing. 1:05:16 But, you know, immediately it goes, boom, it forks. 1:05:20 Everybody has Bitcoin, has eCash. 1:05:23 How am I using eCash? 1:05:25 I mean, you're one. Let's assume you're on some exchange. 1:05:28 Let's assume you got your wallet. 1:05:30 Let's assume, you know, it gets added to EDGE or whatever, you know. 1:05:35 OK. 1:05:37 Is it faster, is it every 10 minutes, you know, is it? 1:05:41 The L1 is the same as Bitcoin Core. 1:05:43 So it's every 10 minutes and it's shot to 56D mind. 1:05:47 So the L1 is very, very similar to Bitcoin Core. 1:05:50 Just one intentional change. 1:05:52 Well, two, really. 1:05:54 But OK, so it's almost the same as BTC. 1:05:57 But as the. Yes. 1:06:00 Sorry. What does it produce? 1:06:01 OK, we we made these two changes. 1:06:04 We're going to keep the the 1:06:07 block size half of what it originally was. 1:06:11 Why? What does that do? 1:06:13 Just make it where more people can have more nodes. 1:06:17 It's fewer 1:06:19 bytes on my hard drive. 1:06:21 I mean, what was the reason for that? 1:06:24 Well, the whole reason to do this project is because. 1:06:28 There's been an under emphasis on merge mined L2s in the Bitcoin world. 1:06:33 So it's about creating these new L2s. 1:06:36 That is the that is the big draw. 1:06:39 And we could have them on BTC at any time. 1:06:42 If the if Bitcoin Core would get their act 1:06:45 together or if the miners would get their act together, 1:06:49 we could have that at any time. 1:06:50 But, you know, the Bitcoin culture has, 1:06:53 you know, as you say, it's just become like buy this stock and we're all going to get 1:06:58 rich type of thing, and it's not really as much about 1:07:01 gaining actual users or having actual transactions. 1:07:06 And which is really unfortunate, because the model where everyone's actually 1:07:09 transacting with it every day and they pay a small fee and the miners are 1:07:13 collecting small fee rates from a large number of transactions. 1:07:17 And so they're loyal. 1:07:19 They have a huge pile of money coming in and they're loyal to the actual users. 1:07:23 The users are actually, you know, 1:07:25 transacting on the network and the full nodes are actually doing something. 1:07:29 That model is much more sustainable and. 1:07:33 That's much more workable than the. 1:07:38 The what we currently have, where there's 1:07:39 actually the fee rates are low, the transaction throughput is low. 1:07:43 We have very few people actually 1:07:44 transacting and we have, you know, why even have if it's all going to be 1:07:48 corporate ETF Bitcoin, then you don't even need the full nodes or the peer to peer 1:07:54 network. So, but yeah, the big draw, the whole point 1:07:57 of doing this is to get these L2 nodes. 1:07:59 So, for example, I have tested some of these L2 nodes and these 1:08:04 are public tests that anyone can rerun on GitHub. 1:08:07 You can just go you just look this up and just click the button. 1:08:10 I think you have to pay for the runners maybe. 1:08:12 But the point is you rent GitHub's 1:08:14 computers and you can just click redo the test. 1:08:18 I've tested the software to basically 50 1:08:22 percent of the Earth's transaction rate, which is like trillions of transactions 1:08:27 per year. 1:08:29 And then we also have a privacy L2 that, again, is based on Zcash. 1:08:34 And we have that hides the center of the receiver in the amount. 1:08:37 So people who want privacy, they can move the coins within the software. 1:08:41 They shift the coins around. 1:08:44 The privacy of their own home to the 1:08:46 privacy chain, privacy L2 chain, and then they can use it there. 1:08:51 Part of the draw is that the different L2s will compete. 1:08:55 So if any of the L2s make a mistake or they're just too lazy to improve. 1:09:00 Or if there's just something that won't be fixed. 1:09:03 Anyone can make a new L2 at any time. 1:09:06 So there's a little bit of a meta 1:09:09 aspect to the project. 1:09:11 It's it's not necessarily about what the L2s do on day one. 1:09:15 It's a little bit more about having a platform of competition. 1:09:19 Living in a capitalist world versus a 1:09:21 communist world where it's like a communist world. 1:09:24 Everything's planned and there's no competition. 1:09:26 They used to describe it, as you know, 1:09:28 they used to describe it as wasteful competition. 1:09:30 They used to say, well, here we just have one sawmill and everyone cooperates. 1:09:36 But of course, it was it was quickly revealed that 1:09:41 that in the capitalist system, the competition is not wasteful at all. 1:09:45 And the competition purges errors from like, you know, there's the famous photo 1:09:49 of the one guy visiting the supermarket and everyone's just amazed at how much. 1:09:55 Food and the variety and the selection, 1:09:57 there is a food in a capitalist country, and that's because competition 1:10:01 produces innovation and it punishes any mistakes. 1:10:07 So this competition point is an extremely important point. 1:10:11 And even though we're going to ship it 1:10:13 with like a kind of starter pack of L2s. 1:10:17 That, I think, would almost miss the point, and I would even say that 1:10:22 we're not necessarily specialists in picking the perfect L2s ourselves, 1:10:26 even though we are we are shipping with seven different types. 1:10:29 So we have scalability, privacy. 1:10:31 We have one that's very similar to Namecoin, 1:10:33 which is the first altcoin that was invented by Satoshi himself. 1:10:36 And he invented Merchminding as well. 1:10:38 Yeah, we were head developers on Namecoin back in the day. 1:10:42 Yeah, I think it had a lot of potential and it's a really cool project. 1:10:45 And I actually think it's also very underexplored. 1:10:49 So when you log in, you must have noticed 1:10:51 that we get tons of spam email and tons of spam phone calls all the time. 1:10:56 And when you log in, it's basically all based on your email. 1:11:01 And so your email provider, like a lot of people just use Gmail or something, 1:11:04 they just the email provider can just reset all of your passwords and get it 1:11:08 to all of your accounts whenever you want. 1:11:11 If you try to go with an obscure email 1:11:14 provider, then sometimes they won't allow you to register 1:11:18 for an account because they don't you know, there's like different tiers. 1:11:21 So even if you try to email 1:11:24 because in order to deter spam, they have worked out all these systems 1:11:27 that involve like blacklists and also whitelists for like prioritizing certain 1:11:31 email providers, they say, well, this person's legit and this person's not. 1:11:34 And that's why you have like log in with Google. 1:11:36 Now you have like log in with Facebook. 1:11:38 You have all that stuff. 1:11:39 The Namecoin world, I think 1:11:42 could really improve all of that. 1:11:44 But Namecoin was an altcoin. 1:11:46 But here is an L2. 1:11:47 So the L2s, they they're similar to altcoins where you can do whatever you want 1:11:51 with the software, but the the twenty one million coins. 1:11:56 Are shared among all of the 1:12:01 shared equally among all the different chains. 1:12:03 So it's kind of like when you deposit 1:12:04 coins to the Lightning Network and then you can pull them back. 1:12:07 Or at least that's how it would work if the Lightning Network were OK. 1:12:10 This is Namecoin is a good example. 1:12:12 When Namecoin was getting a lot of attention from some of the RIT guys 1:12:18 and everything, they're going, Ernie, you need to get your Namecoin address for 1:12:22 freedoms, Phoenix and whatever, you know, just get it, you know, 1:12:25 done like nothing, whatever it was. 1:12:28 And so we did that. 1:12:29 Well, the project didn't really I didn't 1:12:31 know Satoshi had anything to do with that, you know, but it was 1:12:36 but he did. What was his role in Namecoin? 1:12:39 There was a thread called a bit DNS and generalizing Bitcoin. 1:12:44 And someone else, I believe, came up with the idea, like they had like the first few 1:12:49 paragraphs coming up with the idea, but Satoshi is a very active participant in this 1:12:53 thread. And he he co-invents merged mining. 1:12:59 So he says basically that there will be 1:13:01 lots of Satoshi kind of makes a bunch of comments in this thread, which I highly 1:13:04 encourage everyone to read, especially people who are OG Bitcoiners and they're 1:13:08 very curious about this law and they're curious about especially because my 1:13:11 project really advocates the merge mined L2, 1:13:16 which is very similar to what Satoshi is talking about in this thread. 1:13:21 But in the thread, it's clear that Satoshi is kind of just like, yeah, 1:13:24 there'll be all these different networks, there'll be all these different block 1:13:27 chains, so Satoshi kind of just shrugs it off and says that there'll be all these 1:13:31 different block chains. He doesn't react at all. 1:13:34 In contrast to the toxic maxis, he doesn't say like, oh, this shouldn't exist at all. 1:13:39 There's no like defensive, fearful reaction. 1:13:41 He's like, oh, yeah, this is a pretty cool idea. 1:13:43 He's like suggesting how to tune it up a little bit. 1:13:46 And ultimately, they co-invent the people 1:13:48 in this thread, which is a long thread that many people participate in. 1:13:51 But Satoshi invents a way where the miner 1:13:54 can mine both Bitcoin and Namecoin block at the same time without doing any extra 1:13:59 work, which is called merge mining. And in fact, this was invented in 2010. 1:14:03 It was implemented in 2011 and it has been in continuous use ever since. 1:14:08 So there was a BitMEX research post on this that people can look up, 1:14:14 but they track 1:14:16 just how many blockchains use merge mining and how many when someone runs a Bitcoin 1:14:21 miner, usually what happens is the mining pool mines a block for like 15 or 16 1:14:25 different coins all at once. They'll sell the merge mined altcoin for 1:14:30 more BTC and they will credit some of it, you know, maybe not all of it. 1:14:35 I don't know if someone could look into that, but I'm not even sure how we would 1:14:38 tell, but they credit you, they'll tell you the client and they say, 1:14:42 we pay you more 1:14:44 money because we're getting more money. 1:14:46 And most of the pools today are pay per share, which is to say they just they 1:14:51 don't even they don't even tell the individual miner like about what they're 1:14:54 doing, they just say, we'll give you this amount of money per hash rate. 1:14:58 And in that case, it's kind of all swept up. 1:15:00 It's a little more it's a little more 1:15:02 organized because they just say, well, this is a. 1:15:04 We can afford to pay you like instead of paying you one hundred and ten dollars, we'll pay you one hundred and seventeen dollars if you hash with us with this miner for a day. 1:15:08 And so that is that was the invention of Namecoin and Namecoin was originally called BitDNS because domain name system was named after the Internet. 1:15:24 DNS, because you would have the idea was the original idea was something like you'd have like, you know, freedomsphoenix.bit because you probably were able to get and that people would be able to type that into their web browser and it would take you to the page. 1:15:39 And then this would be a name that no one would be able to take away from you. 1:15:43 So this was a very cool idea because it wouldn't matter, like the government couldn't seize the domain, you wouldn't have to pay five dollars a month to GoDaddy or whatever or Namecheap or wherever people get their names. 1:15:56 You wouldn't have to like pay five dollars to renew it. 1:15:59 You would just own the name forever. 1:16:01 You could have it in like complicated multisig type stuff. 1:16:04 You could auction it off. 1:16:05 The name would be able to trigger like all kinds of cool stuff. 1:16:09 Like you could you could you could put a lot of stuff behind the name. 1:16:12 Like you could say, here's my PGP key. 1:16:14 Here's my here's my telephone number. 1:16:18 Here's my telegram ID. 1:16:21 You could be able to have like a whole list of stuff like here with my IP address. 1:16:24 No, I understood the benefit of being able to have it's like, you know, self custody of your identity. 1:16:34 I mean, you know, it's and you know, you have all it because in the mid 90s, tell the story a little bit, you'll understand. 1:16:42 And we'll get to the eCash is the segues into this, you know, you know, for like a better return. 1:16:48 OK, this is what happened. 1:16:53 If you have a identity, you have an address you have. 1:16:58 But what happened in the 90s is there was a guy came, remember it went something like he got paid one hundred thirty five thousand dollars a year to manage, you know, the DNS name service of who gets what and how much money goes out and they buy you all dot com Madonna dot com to get all they. 1:17:21 You're not allowed to do that. 1:17:22 You're doing it wrong. 1:17:23 Yeah, go talk to them. 1:17:25 And then they get into the central plan of international. 1:17:29 You're not allowed to do it. 1:17:30 And we need it in Geneva and a worldwide control of the world government of world not be decentralized, you know, down to the individuals that own their own identity. 1:17:40 You got to go through the end. 1:17:42 That guy's dead. 1:17:44 He's dead. 1:17:45 He had a heart attack. 1:17:46 He's 30 something 40 years old and boom, he's dead. 1:17:48 Now what? 1:17:49 Oh, well, it goes to international of United, somebody of something. 1:17:54 Now you got a centralized service that allocates and manages and ultimately controls your domain name. 1:18:03 OK, if you could have one person do that or one entity, man, it gets kind of, you know, this guy was just managing whatever. 1:18:12 What happens is with Namecoin, if you own your own ID, your own address, your own domain, your own everything underneath that, I saw the benefits of that and make sure that didn't take off too much. 1:18:26 I mean, you know, damn. 1:18:27 So all of these ideas, all of these projects, all of this stuff was to address a specific problem. 1:18:35 How do we decentralize from the centralized control of all this crap, you know, of my transactions, of the history of my transactions? 1:18:44 Do I even have a history of the transactions? 1:18:47 You get into where Edward Snowden comes out and says, look at all this crap that they're doing and surveilling of whatever and so on. 1:18:53 And they go, damn, how is he communicating? 1:18:56 Well, I don't know, is a lava bit or something like that. 1:18:59 I don't remember what it was. 1:19:00 But then they go to a lot of a bit one of the guys and they say, Patriot Act, you work for us now, boy, you know, and we're going to tell us and give us all the people and ID already goes, maybe not. 1:19:11 I closed a bit. 1:19:12 What? 1:19:13 You're not allowed to close a bit. 1:19:14 We didn't even think he may close their business. 1:19:17 Damn, you know, so we have him on. 1:19:19 Well, what happens is they're always going for the centralization thing. 1:19:25 Namecoin all stuff decentralizes a lot of stuff. 1:19:28 So now we get the eCash. 1:19:30 We're going to create a correct me if I'm wrong here. 1:19:33 This is what I'm gleaning from. 1:19:35 Yeah, I am trying to, you know, pieces together in my head is that using Bitcoin, because it's the biggest network of whatever. 1:19:42 And, you know, you know it and like it. 1:19:44 And we'll do that. 1:19:46 You create another level, a layer that allows for more layers to interface with Bitcoin. 1:19:54 In fact, you're encouraging that you need to develop on Bitcoin. 1:19:59 A lot of these features that you can have another chain to interfaces with this and settles over here and everything. 1:20:05 But we got all of this infrastructure processing and networking that we can provide solutions that anybody wants on Bitcoin. 1:20:16 So I'm going, OK, well, you know, I mean, that's one way to look at it. 1:20:20 So I'm I'm wondering how far off I'm on that. 1:20:25 You're advocating for Bitcoin sidechains, layers that would use that network to create the solutions that people keep bitching about. 1:20:37 And certainly I do. 1:20:38 How far off am I? 1:20:41 That's pretty close, I think. 1:20:42 I mean, a lot of this stuff would be invented if developers could just develop and make this stuff. 1:20:48 So if they if they had the opportunity to just make a Namecoin based off of Bitcoin, they would. 1:20:55 In fact, this this happened many times. 1:20:56 So like Vitalik tried to do Ethereum as a Bitcoin project first. 1:21:02 Certainly Roger Ver tried to get his large blocks and all the other large blockers. 1:21:09 They tried to get they tried to, you know, persuade BTC to have large block first. 1:21:15 Before making their own project and yeah, in the Namecoin thread that I mentioned before, people were saying, well, wait a minute, is this with Bitcoin? 1:21:24 And then they said, well, no, actually, it's a new coin and the value of the coin would float. 1:21:31 They have exchange rate fluctuations. 1:21:33 But that's exactly what I would like to prevent. 1:21:35 So in my idea that you have basically a new blockchain and the coins go in at a one to one rate. 1:21:42 And so you can just deposit you can just take seven coins from the L1 and put them on the L2 and you have seven coins there. 1:21:47 You can send them to a new owner. 1:21:49 Then the new owner can take all the seven coins and pull them back to the L1 if they wish. 1:21:55 And the hard fork is just because I'd like to have a place where we can actually try out this technology in the real world. 1:22:03 There's no guarantee that it will do well or there's no guarantee that we even need it. 1:22:06 Maybe Bitcoin, BTC is doing just fine and maybe no one needs this technology. 1:22:12 But actually, I think it's quite an important thing to be able to handle. 1:22:18 Like so far, no one has I don't see any of the cryptocurrencies as having a huge amount of success. 1:22:24 I mean, obviously, BTC has done very, very well in terms of price. 1:22:28 And we had Donald Trump speak at our event in Nashville. 1:22:31 But I think if you given that that's what happened, that we had Donald Trump speak at the event. 1:22:38 And then go on to win the presidential election, like that's just a huge amount of recognition. 1:22:43 And still most people just think of this cryptocurrency industry as including Bitcoin as kind of like a scam. 1:22:51 Most people, they pay some attention to it and they decide it's not really for them. 1:22:55 It's still kind of small, even on BTC, the blocks are not actually filled up and the transaction fee rates are low because there's so little usage. 1:23:09 And the price has gone up as a result of Trump's election, but it really hasn't gone up as much as. 1:23:16 So, for example, I know some people who we were talking about this before, like some people bought Bitcoin for like 10 cents. 1:23:25 This is like the Max Keiser era. 1:23:28 And they could sell it sold at $100,000. 1:23:32 So they made a million X. 1:23:35 But in the modern world, you know, we haven't seen that kind of growth. 1:23:39 That's for a variety of reasons. 1:23:41 But I think we can't I think I'm not sure how far we can go from here without new software and new projects. 1:23:48 So that's that's why you need cash. 1:23:51 Yes, you mentioned Vitalik. 1:23:54 And, you know, I remember when this was going on and I pulled it up. 1:23:58 I couldn't remember what year it was. 1:24:00 And in 2016, you know, we had him on and I'm going, OK, you know, explain it to me, Vitalik, because we'd be at Porcupine Freedom Festival at the, you know, on the picnic table of, you know, yacking about whatever. 1:24:19 And how they're going to change the planet. 1:24:21 This is early on. 1:24:22 Now, this is, you know, 10, 11, 13, around about three years there. 1:24:28 It was man. 1:24:29 They were all excited. 1:24:31 Vitalik by that time had did Ethereum. 1:24:36 And the reason was he goes. 1:24:38 I remember there was a bunch of talk in Bitcoin about colored coins. 1:24:42 OK, and you may be able to explain that. 1:24:45 It was you could have like a Bitcoin transaction you had that represented a membership card or you had, you know, this block. 1:24:53 They were colored. They were marked. 1:24:54 They were this meant something. 1:24:56 And then you could have actual verbiage in their text. 1:25:00 You could send it in like the note area. 1:25:02 I'm going, oh, man, there's a whole bunch of stuff that you can do with this. 1:25:07 You know, this is like, you know, secret spy crap and send it. 1:25:10 But it's not so anonymous, you know. 1:25:12 Well, Vitalik comes in, understands this, and he goes, look, we could do this. 1:25:18 We could do that. 1:25:18 We could have, you know, multi-state contracts. 1:25:21 We could do all kinds of stuff. 1:25:23 And, you know, that's not what we want. 1:25:25 We don't know what the goal was. 1:25:27 And behind it, you started to see the cracks that there was an interest in creating an integration with the government. 1:25:36 You know, permission slips. 1:25:37 It'd be ETFs, and we're going to have it as a currency and stable coins and yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. 1:25:43 It was a banking thing. 1:25:45 And then you get Hal D'Castries that was chairman of two Bilderbergers, you know, primary funder for Blockstream. 1:25:52 It takes over core development of where I'm like, and we're done. 1:25:56 OK, I go, seriously. 1:25:59 Well, then Vitalik, you know, he's like at the time, I could do this. 1:26:03 I just do my own damn chain, Ethereum. 1:26:06 Well, then Ethereum gets hacked or whatever, and they go, yeah, we're doing a redo, man. 1:26:11 We're just, you know, kind of starting over. 1:26:12 So then you have Ethereum Classic and then Ethereum that they just said, we're redoing the last week or month or whatever the hell they did because it got hacked and they took four. 1:26:21 Yeah, we're because we can. 1:26:23 You can bitch all you want and screw you. 1:26:25 And we're over here. 1:26:26 So the ERC token, the Ethereum tokens that were created is kind of like the second layer, the layers that you're talking about. 1:26:36 You can create another coin. 1:26:38 You can create another thing with its own features. 1:26:41 But on this network, well, you're turning Bitcoin into Ethereum or the features, you know, which I don't care, you know, if you can do it, do it, knock yourself out. 1:26:51 That's what Vitalik was wanting to do. 1:26:53 So when I have Vitalik on, I'm going, is this what is this? 1:26:56 This is an operating system. 1:26:59 Is it a, you know, a blockchain for you? 1:27:01 What exactly is it? 1:27:03 Well, he's not the most articulate guy, you know, in the world, but he's very genius. 1:27:07 And I couldn't really understand, you know, what his overall goal was. 1:27:14 But I did understand that some of the features that were allowed in Bitcoin with these colored coin things, which you can help explain, you know, so I can understand it. 1:27:22 But the that seems where you're going with this. 1:27:27 You're like, you know, we need to have other layers that we can have these other features that the competition is Ethereum. 1:27:36 And you're going, Vitalik wanted to do this over here. 1:27:39 They wouldn't let him screw you. 1:27:40 He takes his football and goes over there. 1:27:42 So and been successful in whatever form. 1:27:45 And, you know, I don't pay attention. 1:27:46 OK, this is what I'm looking at. 1:27:50 Describe to me in the audience colored coins in Bitcoin, and we'll see if we can kind of stitch that into what you're doing, explain that. 1:28:00 Well, colored coins is this old idea from, I think, 2012 by Manny Rosenfeld, I think. 1:28:06 Right. And this was an idea that each, you know, that actually under the hood, the software keeps track of the like, basically the order of the 1:28:19 order in which each Satoshi was created. 1:28:21 And so colored coins kind of became ordinals, Casey Rotemore's thing. 1:28:27 And and the idea of embedding stuff in the chain that, you know, sort of became inscriptions. 1:28:35 So these ideas are actually really, really old. 1:28:38 And everything that is old will be new again. 1:28:42 Right. And so I'm not sure how if it has that much to do with what I was talking about in particular. 1:28:49 But it is I think all of these things are examples of people trying to tinker and innovate on BTC. 1:28:57 And usually if they can do that without harming anyone else, I think that's a very good thing, because we want. 1:29:05 The full space of use cases. 1:29:09 To be explored because we don't want a Peter Schiff to come on and say, well, what do you do with it, you don't do anything with with the coin, it doesn't do anything. 1:29:19 So I'm in favor of people using the blockchain for whatever they whatever they can use it successfully, which includes identity like Namecoin. 1:29:27 This includes the prediction markets. 1:29:29 This includes privacy, includes transactions and other types of things. 1:29:35 So. But, yeah, there's a long history of innovation in BTC. 1:29:40 I think one difference between this idea and Ethereum is, of course, Ethereum made a completely new thing with completely new full node software. 1:29:49 But I'm going to be able to do what I want to do without really changing the L1 that much. 1:29:57 So we're hard forking Bitcoin. 1:29:59 So it's at a certain date, everything was split off. 1:30:03 But the underlying full node software, that will be really, really similar. 1:30:11 It would be for a different coin, but it would be very, very similar to to BTC. 1:30:15 So if you like everything about BTC, you're not going to lose anything by switching to eCash because you can just go to a smaller block. 1:30:24 And is that to force an L2 solution? 1:30:27 I mean, why do that? 1:30:29 Well, again, the smaller block size has many advantages, including the full node is easier to sink and it is cheaper and it's easier to hide the location of it. 1:30:41 And my vision is not, again, like how many. 1:30:47 How many transactions do you make within the borders of the United States versus transaction from the United States to like the Eurozone or to Japan? 1:30:58 And mostly the people in Japan are transacting with themselves and mostly the people in the United States are transacting with themselves. 1:31:05 So I imagine that there'll be L2 networks for like each region. 1:31:10 Those will be very, very high block size and very high transaction throughput. 1:31:15 But you just won't need as much. 1:31:18 Transaction bandwidth for because people can net. 1:31:24 You can have a situation where already in a situation where like thousands of people, thousands of people can each make. 1:31:31 Many transactions per day. 1:31:33 Between the region, so but most normal people won't. 1:31:37 Most normal people just say, OK, I'm planning a trip to Europe. 1:31:41 I only need one transaction shifting my US dollars into euros at the beginning. 1:31:47 And then when I'm at Europe, I'm going to make like who knows how many transactions, like maybe like 100 transactions. 1:31:54 And then one transaction shifted back. 1:31:56 So that's only two that I might need in the whole year. 1:31:59 So maybe even if I make 10,000 transactions in a year, I may only need two that shift from which payment network I'm on. 1:32:07 So the ratio is very low. 1:32:10 Yeah, but why make the change? 1:32:13 It's because just more people can run a node on their whatever. 1:32:17 I mean, the capacity seems with memory and access to processing that it's it's not that big a deal. 1:32:23 You're right that in effect, it's already shrunk if you consider the fact that the hardware speeds have improved and bandwidth has improved. 1:32:34 So it's kind of shrinking all the time. 1:32:37 OK, so I think but isn't that an argument that it kind of doesn't matter either way, which is also what I'm saying? 1:32:43 Well, you know, I can see where you say that. 1:32:45 So I'm just going, why would you do it? 1:32:47 You know, it's just I guess you're saying this is the impression I'm getting. 1:32:53 You know, for the audience to sum this up all my head, the experience of talking and not being a geek. 1:32:58 But, you know, I'm I'm representing grandma, grandpa here. 1:33:00 OK, you know, so I'm just, you know, explain it to me like I'm like I'm five or one hundred and five. 1:33:06 I mean, you know, that kind of. 1:33:08 So as I'm getting it with the history of Bitcoin comes on scene to have all these promises and whatever, wasn't as accurate of what they were slinging in the beginning. 1:33:21 But you still have this great network ability and it works. 1:33:25 Well, it's inspires and sponsors a whole bunch of competition. 1:33:29 All of a sudden there's thousands of these everywhere. 1:33:31 Oh, my God. So you go, OK, you know, this is one of, you know, Peter Schiff's, you know, complaints. 1:33:37 Well, you know, pick one of eight thousand whatever. 1:33:41 And it doesn't matter. 1:33:41 They'll just create another one. 1:33:42 And why would you pick, you know, whatever it's for its features? 1:33:46 And I go, what is why I always said, what is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin or any crypto? 1:33:52 What is it? What's its value? 1:33:54 It's how much silver and or gold you're willing to give up for its features. 1:34:02 That's its intrinsic value. 1:34:03 It is worth this much gold and silver or premium to me to be able to do this thing. 1:34:12 OK, what are these things that I'm promised? 1:34:14 Anonymity. Anonymity. 1:34:16 Nope. That was a lie. 1:34:18 All right. Speed of transactions gets kind of clogged up. 1:34:23 And untruth. Privacy, not so much. 1:34:29 You know, the cost of the transaction. 1:34:31 And I paid thirty six dollars one time by accident. 1:34:35 What the crap? 1:34:37 So I'm going, you know, they're promising me and they're lying sacks of snot. 1:34:42 OK, well, who's not lying to me? 1:34:44 How am I able to do this and make and get that? 1:34:48 Well, here comes Vitalik and they go, you can now we don't want to do that. 1:34:52 All right, fine. He goes and does Ethereum. 1:34:54 Here comes Paul. And Paul is going, hey, man, we can just do, you know, L1, L2 and create a mechanism by which you can have all these solutions that can settle. 1:35:06 Eventually on the main chain over here, but we could have these other coins out here operating independently and having their own thing. 1:35:14 And the benefits would be this, this, this and this. 1:35:18 And I'm going, OK. 1:35:21 So in practicality, as I'm looking for what I want, I need to wait for an L2, a layer that's going to provide whatever features that I want using BTC's network. 1:35:36 That is there that will keep it number one. 1:35:38 We're number one. But I want privacy. 1:35:41 I want speed. I want cheap transactions. 1:35:43 I want I want I want I want everything. 1:35:45 Damn it. I was promised. 1:35:46 It's like why this show is called Declare Your Independence. 1:35:49 Why? Because that was the deal. 1:35:51 You know, the Declaration of Independence said the purpose of government will protect individual rights. 1:35:55 Doesn't do that. Time to alter, abolish. 1:35:57 It's your right. It's your duty. 1:35:58 Boom. Sign me up. 1:36:00 I'm in. Constitution do that? 1:36:01 No. Bill of Rights try to, you know, 10 thou shalt not to government. 1:36:06 We're going to hold it back kind of thing. 1:36:07 These kinds of conversations have been going on for thousands of years. 1:36:12 Same kind of thing. 1:36:14 Then we had, you know, I remember it was from Crossbows to Cryptography. 1:36:19 Eighty seven, eighty eight. 1:36:21 It was a article that was like Crossbows Cryptography. 1:36:25 We what the hell are they talking about? 1:36:27 The king outlaws crossbows because the plebs, you know, the the the serfs out there just put a bolt through the armor of some night and go back to plowing. 1:36:38 You know, we got the technology. 1:36:39 Screw you. And they go, oh, no, no, no. 1:36:42 Can't have this decentralized power to oppose us. 1:36:46 Cryptography represented that. 1:36:48 This is an article from, you know, you go to the Nakamoto Institute. 1:36:52 You can see it. Crossbows to Cryptography. 1:36:55 This was our understanding as young 20 something libertarian, freedom oriented, leave me alone, anarchist, voluntarist, activist. 1:37:04 We understood this from the beginning. 1:37:07 So then it's like 2000. 1:37:08 They come up with e-gold. 1:37:09 They deposit gold at Dubai Airport or wherever because they're chasing them out of London. 1:37:14 And you could, you know, sell your assets into that and trade digitally gold. 1:37:19 Boom. Here comes the IRS and they seize and we're got F-16s and you're going to do it the hell we tell you kind of thing. 1:37:25 OK. All right. 1:37:27 It's going to be like that. 1:37:28 Huh? All right. 1:37:28 Then you get Liberty Dollar and you're doing silver. 1:37:31 They go after them. 1:37:32 You said dollar counterfeit. 1:37:34 You sons of bitches. 1:37:35 So then here comes crypto. 1:37:37 Oh, no third party risk. 1:37:39 Government be damned. 1:37:40 Bite me. 1:37:41 Who did it? 1:37:42 No idea. 1:37:43 You know, Satoshi. 1:37:44 Yeah, it's back. 1:37:45 You know, I'm going or Bach or whatever. 1:37:47 I mean, you know, I don't care. 1:37:50 The technology is going to free me or it's not. 1:37:53 So I'm going, OK. 1:37:54 Well, let's see. 1:37:55 Oh, it does this. 1:37:56 All right, cool. 1:37:56 It does this. 1:37:57 It does it. 1:37:57 Well, it keeps changing. 1:37:59 And it wasn't exactly what they say, but it set a possibility in the minds of tech people to create these things. 1:38:07 Multisign contracts. 1:38:08 It started getting the privacy. 1:38:10 You're starting to get into speed and cheapness. 1:38:12 And all that. All right. 1:38:13 Competition, like you say, good Rockefeller, as he say, competition is a sin. 1:38:19 Well, I see these guys all through the BTC maximal list of the Bank of Goldman Sachs dot gov coin. 1:38:25 I see it everywhere. 1:38:27 And it was obvious from the beginning. 1:38:30 I'm going, when you get block streaming, I go here. 1:38:33 We have chairman of Bilderberg twice is now funding. 1:38:39 And then we find out it's got Epstein smeared all over it. 1:38:43 I'm going, what do you think was going to happen? 1:38:46 Then you get the stable coin thing. 1:38:48 Here we have the Trump administration. 1:38:50 The Trump sons are all cryptoed up. 1:38:52 You had the Winklevai back in the day, Gemini doing. 1:38:55 We got to have an ETF. 1:38:57 ETFs make it go up. 1:38:59 All that I don't give a shit about. 1:39:01 That was not the point. 1:39:03 It was peer to peer digital cash. 1:39:09 And we've been supporting this and thinking about it and whatever for 30, 40 years. 1:39:15 I'm an old guy. 1:39:16 Oh, gee. 1:39:17 So obviously I pay attention. 1:39:19 I'm looking for the traits. 1:39:21 Paul, we're introduced to you. 1:39:24 You come on, you go, all right, we're going to do a hard fork, a Bitcoin to provide a 1:39:29 layer, an interface, a meshing with another, any other layers, kind of like ERC tokens 1:39:36 or whatever you guys out there go fix it. 1:39:39 And we provide on off ramp and we're going to be able to solve. 1:39:43 You can solve your own damn problem. 1:39:44 And we're going to do this. 1:39:46 And what does the BTC guys got to bitch about? 1:39:49 Because they get Eagle eCash anyway. 1:39:52 Right. So I'm going, all right. 1:39:54 How far off am I? 1:39:57 I think that's pretty close. 1:39:59 I'm going to have to go pretty soon. 1:40:01 This has been really, really good, but I'll try to sneak in some last points. 1:40:05 I've had a great time. 1:40:07 But I think, okay, with respect to Bilderberg and Blockstream and Jeffrey Epstein and all this other stuff, I think if we had the right amount of competition, it wouldn't matter, like who invested in what, you know what I mean? 1:40:18 Because it would just be someone put out this software and then you would say, well, wait a minute, I'm paying a $36 fee. 1:40:26 Then someone else would put out, okay, well, here's my version of the software where you don't pay a $36 fee, but it takes up more hard drive space on your hard drive. And you think, oh, okay, that's fine. Or they say some other thing. 1:40:41 The reason why we don't have that competition is because it's very difficult to create a new full node software without creating a completely new coin. 1:40:54 So now we have the competition, but we have all these 6 million altcoins, and that's what Peter Schiff complains about. 1:41:00 And the point of this project is to try to address both concerns to some extent simultaneously and say, well, listen, if there's an issue, anyone can ship the new version. 1:41:13 And so even if the 100% of the developers are evil on the L1, it shouldn't matter because the user can just escape the L2. 1:41:21 I think a lot of it is hard to understand, but people could download our test software if they feel comfortable running software in their computer, which you should always be cautious about. 1:41:31 But if you download our test software, it will give you fake coins, play money, and you can kind of get an idea of exactly what it is that my vision for how all this should really work. 1:41:44 And that would give people some idea of what's actually going on here. 1:41:49 Well, nobody can stop you. 1:41:51 I mean, come August, you got it right there. 1:41:54 Peace out. 1:41:55 We're done. 1:41:56 Use it. 1:41:57 Don't use it. 1:41:58 Bitch. 1:41:59 Don't bitch. 1:42:00 More attention. 1:42:01 Knock stuff out. 1:42:02 Some people say that. 1:42:03 Yes. 1:42:04 So this is, and the proof is in the pudding, man. 1:42:07 I mean, it's either going to do it or it's not. 1:42:09 But you're not offering a solution right away. 1:42:12 You're offering an option to create a solution and interface. 1:42:16 We are shipping also. 1:42:17 We're giving the starter pack. 1:42:19 So I think scale and privacy we're going to have nailed. 1:42:22 And I think a lot of the other stuff will be on the way, like the identity, assets, prediction markets. 1:42:29 You can download that now. 1:42:30 You can try that now and you see it's kind of good, but it's not 100% there. 1:42:34 So what is the response from the Bitcoin maximalist of what you're doing? 1:42:37 I don't know. 1:42:38 I just put it out this morning. 1:42:40 But I think, again, I think there's a difference between the – if you ship an alternative, 1:42:46 if you ship a hard fork, you're saying to the owners that you'll respect their investment. 1:42:52 Because you're saying, oh, if you bought 17 Bitcoin, so to speak, you get 17 of this. 1:42:56 You get more. 1:42:57 The more Bitcoin you own, the more you get. 1:43:00 So when you do the hard fork, you're respecting the owner. 1:43:06 But you don't necessarily respect like the Bitcoin podcaster or whatever because everyone's got like their own little book. 1:43:11 Like Safetine's got his book and everyone's got their own little story about like how Bitcoin is supposed to work. 1:43:17 And so – and of course people have been trained to just react with like hatred of anything new. 1:43:26 And so they don't like when anyone leaves the cult. 1:43:28 They just think like, well, this must be the worst person in the whole world. 1:43:31 Of course, it's partly that attitude. 1:43:33 If the Bitcoin were so strong, there would be no need to have a defensive reaction. 1:43:39 So a lot of it is kind of a bit of a circus. 1:43:42 So I don't know. 1:43:43 But I'm sure probably a lot of people are very excited because I know that secretly a lot of people realize that there are very serious problems in Bitcoin. 1:43:52 Because I've gone to this – I've been a part of the community 24-7 for the last like 15 years. 1:43:59 So I know a lot of people will be excited and optimistic. 1:44:03 I'm sure there will be a lot of people who have like fake – they have like a fake username and a cartoon character Twitter profile picture who will – they won't like this. 1:44:13 But the thing is those people didn't like when I proposed BIP300 on Bitcoin itself, which is just giving this idea away completely for free, not as a hard fork, and not even as a soft fork. 1:44:25 It did something called the Core Untouched Soft Fork where it didn't change any lines of code in Bitcoin core, and it would still activate BIP300. 1:44:35 So when I proposed that idea, a lot of people still didn't like that even though it was completely opt-in, reversible, ignorable soft fork. 1:44:43 This is the question before you go along this line. 1:44:47 The opposition to what you're doing is coming from what special interest? 1:44:54 Is it institutionalization? 1:44:56 Is it wallets? 1:44:57 Is it miners? 1:44:58 Is it users? 1:44:59 Is it government? 1:45:01 Government approval? 1:45:02 Government integration? 1:45:04 Going in with stable coins? 1:45:06 Treasury Department of you're not allowed in the SEC or you're doing it wrong? 1:45:10 I mean a lot of the opposition to this stuff, it seems to me, comes from those that, hey, you're messing with us shoehorning into the legacy banking system, dummy. 1:45:20 We need to shoehorn it. 1:45:22 We need to integrate. 1:45:23 We need JD Vance to come to our conference and lay hands on it, and you're messing with that. 1:45:27 Is that the opposition? 1:45:29 I think you're right. 1:45:30 So there's a group like that who I think they don't want privacy on Bitcoin, and they don't really want anyone thinking about it. 1:45:37 That's kind of like how normally no one does anything too inspiring in a casino because you don't come there to be inspired. 1:45:43 It's appropriate that the Las Vegas is the conference venue, but it's like, you know what I mean? 1:45:48 I don't think they play Bach in a casino, like the music or something. 1:45:53 It's a different mode. 1:45:55 So I think there are a lot of people who are like, yeah, we want this to be tame, and we don't want it to be subversive, and we want it to just be very, very, very, very, very simple. 1:46:05 We don't want it to change a lot because if it changes, then we'll have to. 1:46:08 There'll be expertise involved in explaining what it is and what it can do, and maybe it will change further, even though the soft fork isn't a change. 1:46:17 So there is a group like that. 1:46:18 I think the second group is anyone who's invested too much in the Lightning Network or too much in just becoming a Bitcoin core developer, in quotes, because I don't even think that means anything anymore. 1:46:29 But there's like a technical insider group that I think they may be either jealous or envious, or it might make them look bad by comparison. 1:46:39 A lot of people have invested a lot of time and money and expertise in competing, scaling ideas, Lightning Network, and it's just one example. 1:46:49 But there's also like ARK and Fediment and all this stuff. 1:46:52 I'm not sure how they would react to this. 1:46:56 There is an institutional resistance to this kind of stuff because there is an overall goal of the integration in with the legacy system. 1:47:03 That is the ultimate goal that you've got. 1:47:06 Whoa, this thing's working. 1:47:07 Here comes Blockstream, you know, the cash trees, Epstein and Co and whatever's behind that. 1:47:13 Here it comes. 1:47:15 And when you do this, if it interferes with that, there's going to be opposition. 1:47:20 And I wanted to understand who we're up against and what we're trying to solve. 1:47:25 So what you're trying to solve is not necessarily you're given a package, you're given some, you know, alternative for some privacy and scalability or whatever you're doing. 1:47:33 But the main thing that you're doing is the concept of creating other layers that can do a bunch of different things. 1:47:39 Peace out. 1:47:40 Go do it. 1:47:41 We created the mechanism for you to do it. 1:47:43 Right. 1:47:46 Right. 1:47:47 Yeah, it's supposed to be kind of complaint proof. 1:47:49 Of course, we're not going to achieve that. 1:47:52 But if you – sorry, if you think about it, people who want – people who like Bitcoin Core, they get what they want on the L1. 1:48:02 And people who like large blocks, they can get those. 1:48:06 And people who like privacy can get – so everyone should be able to get what they want. 1:48:09 Of course, when you give everyone what they want, it probably will result in the most complaining of all because sometimes what people want is just a kind of behavior. 1:48:19 They want a monopoly. 1:48:20 They want control. 1:48:21 They want it to be what they want. 1:48:23 And I paid for it and damn it, an institution, and you got a permit and a permission slip from the crown. 1:48:28 I get it. 1:48:29 Which side are you on? 1:48:31 So that's what we're trying to find out. 1:48:34 We're going to be – before you do your launch in August, we'll come back and we'll talk about and see where we're at. 1:48:40 And you just launched it. 1:48:42 Thank you for putting up with my freaking why, why, why, why, what, when, how kind of man. 1:48:48 I think we got a beat on it. 1:48:50 But it's – and it is interesting. 1:48:53 And this is where if Vitalik, you know, was, I don't know, able to be influential with Bitcoin or whatever, this might have been what would have happened, something like this, 1:49:04 where Vitalik was, you know, wanting to have a lot of these other features. 1:49:07 Ah, screw it. 1:49:08 I take my football and go over here. 1:49:10 Well, you're using the network ability and the size of Bitcoin to be able to offer these things because I remember the color coin thing. 1:49:19 So there's options. 1:49:21 But somebody didn't want to have this innovation. 1:49:24 Somebody did not want the privacy. 1:49:26 They did not want the scalability. 1:49:28 They did not want – for what reason? 1:49:30 For them to create their own whatever the hell. 1:49:32 Well, if you make it – 1:49:33 Well, I think life has always been difficult for innovation, right? 1:49:35 You stick your neck out for something new and it's inevitable that it will make some people upset. 1:49:40 Well, I'm glad that we're having some competition and creation of, you know, the thought process of going through what can be done. 1:49:50 Because sooner or later, there's going to be something or a bunch of somethings. 1:49:54 I'm not looking for Sam Altman staring at this globe, you know, retina scan to get your world coin of whatever, which is common, okay? 1:50:03 I mean, these guys, they're sociopathic, centralized, we rule you, got your DNA, you know, and your retina scan people. 1:50:12 Oh, my God. 1:50:13 And any competition with that, it's cool by me. 1:50:16 But they're going to come after you because I see that you're breaking away from the plan of the institutionalized whatever the hell GoldmanSucks.gov coin. 1:50:28 And that is going to be very telling of who, what, and how hard they come after you after today. 1:50:35 And I have Roger on after he does hijacking Bitcoin. 1:50:39 Boom, he gets arrested in Spain. 1:50:41 I have, you know, Eric Voorhees on talking about whatever. 1:50:47 Boom, he gets fined, whatever. 1:50:49 So you're in trouble. 1:50:50 You came on to declare your independence. 1:50:52 I'm just saying, you know. 1:50:53 You want it, here it comes. 1:50:55 You're going to get the attention. 1:50:57 But I'm here just as a regular grandpa kind of wanting to be free. 1:51:02 Are you going to help provide that? 1:51:04 Well, we're going to find out. 1:51:06 And you're putting a mechanism out there for other people to develop it. 1:51:09 I get it. 1:51:10 August. 1:51:11 We're going to be doing another show if you're not in jail. 1:51:14 No good deed goes unpunished, right? 1:51:17 So we're going to go ahead and follow this. 1:51:20 Paul, thanks for it. 1:51:21 Thank you. 1:51:22 Sztorc. 1:51:23 Yes. 1:51:24 Did I say it right? 1:51:25 Yes. 1:51:26 Well, thanks for coming on. 1:51:27 Thanks for having me. 1:51:28 You go to eCash.com. 1:51:31 That's right. 1:51:32 eCash.com, and you get to this page. 1:51:35 It looks like this. 1:51:36 And there's a countdown. 1:51:37 That's right. 1:51:38 Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. 1:51:40 It's an ominous countdown, but there's still plenty of time. 1:51:42 The summer just barely started, so plenty of time. 1:51:45 Well, to even get it, I've got to wait until it comes online in the secondary market, 1:51:49 or I have to go buy BTC to get my eCash. 1:51:55 Right. 1:51:56 There's a little more to it. 1:51:57 Sure. 1:51:58 But I have to go now, though. 1:51:59 All right. 1:52:00 Peace, brother. 1:52:01 We'll be back. 1:52:02 Thanks for coming on. 1:52:03 We got a lot of it. 1:52:04 Look forward to talking to you. 1:52:05 Thank you. 1:52:06 Okay, thanks. 1:52:07 Bye.