0:00 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all. 0:12 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all. 0:36 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all. 0:46 From the day we arrive on the blockchain and blinking step into the trade, 0:52 there's more to lose than can ever be won, more to dump than can ever be saved. 0:58 Influencers, tweets and the noobs all follow, buying high selling low at a game. 1:03 But the boomers know and sailor he knows that the dump is coming. 1:08 It's all the same. It's the circle of exit liquidity. 1:22 And it moves us all through despair and hope, 1:28 through faith and FOMO till we find our place on the path unwinding in the circle, 1:44 the circle of exit liquidity. 2:02 Some of us fall by the wayside and some of us soar to the stars, 2:08 but the influencers always win with the Lambos and their cars. 2:14 So beware of the pump and the inevitable dump for the cycle continues and the noobs get wrecked. 2:23 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all. 2:34 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all. 2:57 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all. 3:07 It's the circle of exit liquidity. 3:17 And it moves us all through despair and hope, 3:23 through faith and FOMO till we find our place on the path unwinding in the circle, 3:35 the circle of exit liquidity. 4:04 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ho. Do na na, dump it all. 4:14 Crypto na na, exit liquidity, ha. Do na na, dump it all. 4:25 Have you been today? It's been a heavy media day for you, right? 4:28 It has. 4:30 Out of curiosity, how many shows have you done today? 4:37 How many have you done so far and how many will you do? 4:43 Well, I would always accept any podcast invitation, no matter how hostile. 4:52 So I'll probably do as many as people want to hear what I have to say. 4:57 I'll keep doing them, I suppose. 5:00 I pre-recorded, I think, four, right? 5:05 And then today I did three, but they were pretty long. 5:10 I think this one will be pretty long. 5:12 Yeah, I mean, at least an hour or so. 5:15 I mean, it could be more than that. We'll see. 5:18 However long it actually ends up being. 5:20 I have to say, I'm no Vlad Kostya. 5:23 I'm not one of those eight-hour podcast people. 5:26 I could, but I kind of feel like a lot of that is not a good use of time to go eight hours. 5:33 And then do people really listen to the whole thing? That's a big ask. 5:38 I don't know. 5:39 Yes. 5:40 They're used to just tuning out sometimes. 5:42 Yes, of course. 5:44 I mean, it's a great bragging rights thing or bladder things. 5:48 I am pretty sure I've gone eight hours without going to the bathroom before. 5:52 But I have done five hours straight of podcasts, but one after another, several times in the last year. 6:00 But is it for a reason? 6:04 I have to say, before I continue, I am not shitting on Vlad. 6:11 I think he's a great dude and he has a compelling podcast. 6:13 I'm just riffing off the concept of pushing the endurance sport of the podcasting because it's sort of like the communist labor theory of value. 6:22 Are you doing it because you really have so much content or are you doing it just because you want to say that you've done it? 6:31 Yes. 6:33 I think it's more of a let it run eight hours rather than push it to eight hours. 6:41 So it's kind of an interesting thing. 6:44 But, yeah, I mean, short form, long form, I'm not succinct enough to do really short form. 6:52 It's funny because I'm kind of at the ends of the spectrum where most of my shows are 60 to 90 minutes plus. 7:02 So it's like 60, 90, 120 minutes, something like that. 7:07 Sometimes longer. I've done two and a half to three hour shows before. 7:11 I do typically three hour spaces every week. 7:14 But then also I do sometimes 60 second to three minute videos. 7:20 I did some like rant video a couple of days ago that was like three minutes. 7:24 It was very popular. 7:25 But just like the five minute, 10 minute, 20 minute, up to 30 minute, that's not really a zone I exist in a lot. 7:34 I think that some people like the nine hour podcast because it's really, really hard to put up like an act or fake something for that long. 7:47 So it's kind of like stress testing a CPU or something. 7:51 It's like, OK, you're going to get a picture of who this person is that you wouldn't get in little sound bites. 7:59 I sort of feel like you have to push it past 60 minutes to get people's guards down sort of or get their defenses down. 8:06 I sort of feel like 90. 8:08 Like if I were to pick a sweet spot to do all podcasts, I would probably pick 90 minutes because you kind of get the last 30 minutes are like you can't maintain the facade. 8:21 I could stretch a facade for an hour probably. 8:23 Not that I would, but it's just after that. 8:26 I kind of feel like you get that. 8:28 But then if you always do two hour shows, sometimes they might get boring. 8:33 Right. 8:34 I definitely think, you know, yeah, you do 60 minutes. 8:36 Well, you're also, you know, 60 minutes you have. 8:38 Now you have a shared experience with someone else. 8:42 It's a little bit more complex. 8:45 Well, fun stuff. 8:46 Well, let's roll the, what is it, 20 second intro thing and then we'll get right into it. 8:51 All right, let's do it. 8:52 All right. 8:53 3, 2, 1, go. 9:04 So, hey, everyone. 9:05 Welcome officially now to the Digital Cash Rundown episode 225, which means I've been doing this over 225 weeks in a row, probably since mid 2020. 9:15 And I'm joined by the one and only, at least that I know of, Paul Sztorc. 9:19 How's it going, man? 9:20 It's going good. 9:21 Thanks for having me. 9:22 Yeah, absolutely. 9:23 Happy to have you on. 9:25 You've been on kind of the more interviewee segment version before talking about kind of the core thesis that goes that we're going into in more of like a new crypto project kind of thing. 9:36 And ahead of ahead of getting into the details, I have to say that this podcast is very proudly sponsored by no one at all. 9:45 I had a sponsor before and don't currently. 9:47 And so no one is paying me. 9:50 People were sharing a graphic of like podcast budget stuff for this new eCash thing and insinuating that I took a piece, but I didn't. 10:00 Or if I did, I mean, where is it, man? 10:03 I mean, you're late. 10:07 Well, you know, I guess that's weird for people, but I guess it's understandable. 10:13 People want to just think like there's no real reason why. 10:16 I mean, it's bizarre on one hand because you can go to like the LayerTwo Labs dot com slash friends list and you can see all these people who are enthusiastic. 10:23 This is not about eCash specifically the hard fork, but they're enthusiastic about Drivechain the idea. 10:29 And this is a giant list of of like big intellectual leaders in the space. 10:37 So it's kind of like, is it really so hard to believe that there is genuine interest in this idea? 10:42 But I guess that's just something that people have to go to. 10:46 Yeah, for sure. 10:47 So I do want to give a shout out to another friend of the show. 10:51 And again, I'm a man of my word. 10:53 I made a promise. So let me throw this up on the screen here. 10:56 Earlier on during this, when I announced that I was going to do this show, we had some of our friendly eCashers, again, the other eCash, the other semi-major eCash, asking about have you pay for the interview, whatever. 11:10 And I just said, I'm not. And then about the name. 11:14 And I just said, like, it's a generic enough name in crypto and has been since a long before the ABC fork. 11:21 Unfortunately, ABC fork founder, they don't mix. 11:24 Hello, Mr. Said, you know, this is bullshit. 11:27 I expected better from you. 11:29 No, it's not. 11:31 He says, of course it is between that and stealing Satoshi's coins, which we'll get into that part later. 11:35 Yes, you know, it is. 11:37 But it'll be controversial and therefore print views. 11:40 I get it. I just thought you were above this. 11:42 And so I thought I would mention this on the show. 11:45 So I will. So first of all, I have right up on the screen. 11:48 A I believe it was eCash launched this year. 11:53 The other one launched somewhere in late 2020. 11:58 It was named eCash by July of 2021. 12:03 And here's a big, long list of everywhere. 12:06 P2P eCash system, eCash, eCash, eCash, eCash, eCash everywhere. 12:11 Well, before that date that I selected specifically. 12:14 You have people, you have Adam back on here somewhere. 12:16 I saw you have plenty of people, of course. 12:19 David Chom with Chomian eCash. 12:22 And then there was even an Ethereum project called Ethereum Cash or eCash. 12:27 So many of these. And so as far as like the clicks, by the way. 12:30 So just this is my podcast front page. 12:33 Just click on the channel. You can corroborate this. 12:36 And you look at popular videos. This is not a huge channel. 12:40 I don't get very many views. Maybe this one will. 12:43 But you look at some of these top ones I got. 12:46 Like I mentioned the Joe Rogan Spotify thing five years ago. 12:49 And that got a decent amount. 12:51 When Zcash had its big kind of renaissance. 12:55 And then Ben Swan, who's a significant person. 12:59 I mean, what's the name? 13:00 Emin Guncir talking about Avalanche back when it like first launched. 13:05 Roger Ver coming on this show talking about hijacking Bitcoin. 13:09 Again, 3K views. Not bad, but not great. 13:11 MoneroHack. These are my most popular videos ascending. 13:15 We got some Dash one because very close with the Dash community on this channel. 13:19 A lot of my first subscribers, of course. 13:22 How to live on crypto ones running a lightning node. 13:25 Second highest view count. 13:26 Why does the price of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies go up? Of course. 13:30 Most popular video. 13:32 Amare Sache on Bitcoin ABC's rebirth as eCash. 13:36 Oh my goodness. 13:38 So we're saying maybe I had him on. 13:40 Because it was just popular and for the clicks. 13:43 Maybe it's something about the eCash thing. 13:45 I mean, maybe. 13:46 I wonder if that's it. 13:47 I mean, but I think part of your point was like that, you know. 13:50 You're basically getting like 5,000 views or something. 13:54 When I'm very lucky, yes. 13:55 On a good day. 13:56 So, I mean, yeah. 13:57 I mean, people think like, you know, why would I pay for it? 13:59 No, I'm just kidding. 14:01 But it's kind of like, you know. 14:04 Well, yeah. 14:06 Okay, so I'll tell the story of the name. 14:08 I feel terrible that it is the same as Amare's project. 14:11 And I have to say, I think the true story makes them look like even worse in a way. 14:18 It may make me look bad also. 14:20 I think it's just a bad story all around. 14:22 But basically. 14:23 I mean, it is a competitive term. 14:25 Yeah, of course. 14:26 It's like email. 14:27 It's like whatever. 14:28 So I've noticed that in the summer. 14:31 Okay, so this is like back in a long time ago. 14:35 I think it was maybe 2021 or 2022. 14:37 I was talking to someone. 14:39 I was interested in domains because I was kind of interested in this project. 14:42 This idea of what would you name a hard fork of Bitcoin? 14:47 And, yeah, I checked like a few really good domains. 14:54 And they were like, it was like I had like eCoin and eCash. 15:01 So there was a list of these names like this. 15:03 Now, of course, I may be misremembering or I may have mixed up one of the domains. 15:08 But I looked at like five or six premium domains. 15:10 Everyone wanted like $8 million for these domains. 15:14 So I think this was like because like altcoining was like really big or something. 15:19 I'm not sure. 15:20 We didn't have like Bitcoin Season 2 and we didn't have like the collapse of altcoins. 15:23 So, yeah. 15:24 And then basically last summer, I was just kind of like cold messaging some of these people. 15:29 And I was like, you know, can we work something out? 15:32 Or like if I raise a lot of money, you get like a percent. 15:34 And then they just told me that they would sell me the domain. 15:38 They had a whole set of eCash.com with the date, eCash.net and whatever. 15:45 And they were like, we'll just give you the whole set for like much, much, much, much. 15:49 I don't want to say exactly how much. 15:51 I'm not sure if that's like appropriate or like just too much like a kitchen table type of a thing. 15:57 But let's just say it was a lot less than – it was less than a quarter of a million dollars for all of them. 16:04 So it was – we're talking like huge, huge, huge, huge. 16:08 So I was like, oh, OK, great. 16:10 So then before I did that, though, I was – I looked around to see is this name in use. 16:15 And I honestly – hand on the Bible. 16:19 I had no idea it was Omri's project at all and I feel bad about that. 16:23 But I looked it up and it was like, oh, this is just some project that's 160th on CoinMarketCap. 16:28 And I thought, well, I can't name – once we get to like number 12, like I don't know. 16:33 I've never heard of like any of those projects. 16:35 You know what I mean? 16:36 Like I know of a couple. 16:38 I know like a few altcoin names, but I don't know. 16:41 If you go to a guy on the street and you say, can you name me the top 200 altcoins, they're just going to say like I don't know. 16:48 So, yeah, I looked it up and I didn't look into it any further because I just thought, well, I'm going to get to .com and it's 160. 16:55 So 160 might as well be infinity like as far as I'm concerned. 16:58 So that's what I thought and I thought, oh, this will be great. 17:01 Now, of course, I knew that wherever this community is, they'll probably be mad about that, but I didn't. 17:06 I think I might have done it differently had I known that it was another hard fork of Bitcoin and it was also Omri's thing. 17:12 But I sent Omri a note saying after I found this out, I sent him like a telegram message and I was like, oh, I'm sorry about this name. 17:20 And I explained – I told him the exact same story and it got two check marks. 17:24 So he got it and he read it, but he didn't reply. 17:27 He didn't say anything. 17:29 So that was months ago. 17:31 So but he's complaining to you, I guess. 17:33 I don't know. So that's the story. 17:34 I'll have him back up if he apologizes. 17:36 Yeah, that's fine. 17:37 So that's the story about that. 17:39 So, yeah, I didn't know. 17:40 But, yeah, I don't think – I mean, the entire market cap of the other eCash is like less than 150 million. 17:47 And in contrast, when Bitcoin Cash like debuted in November 2017, it quickly became the number one altcoin for like a day. 17:57 Then it didn't last. 17:59 But that was the origin of that famous tweet from Vitalik when he said congrats on this seriously, as you probably remember. 18:06 So like we're talking like contending for the number one spot in the case of BCH, albeit for a day, briefly for one day. 18:18 And then if you look at like the market caps are like logarithmically distributed. 18:26 You know what I mean? 18:27 So like once you get out of like – like the top three are like most of the value. 18:31 And then like the top ten are like the huge – and then there's all this long tail of low-value projects. 18:38 There's this scree or whatever it's sometimes called in statistics. 18:42 So it's like – I mean, yeah. 18:46 So I don't really – I don't think of that as a legitimate contender for the name. 18:52 And then you have the dot-com. 18:54 That's good. 18:56 But, yeah, certainly I regret that to some extent. 18:58 I don't know. 18:59 Well, who's – so like if my project is 160th on coin market cap, like I've just got to tell everyone like I will – I would be giving up at that point. 19:07 I would not be caring about other people. 19:10 You know what I mean? 19:11 Like if that's what you have to care about, then the project is in bad shape because I would just say, oh, yeah, I understand why. 19:19 You know what I would do is I would actually – if I were 160th on coin market cap and someone else wanted to launch something with a different name, I would say, oh, we'll sell you the domain. 19:29 I would sell them all the assets and maybe give those to the – I would tell the community, hey, listen, our project isn't going very well, but I'm going to sell this stuff. 19:39 And we're going to distribute the proceeds of the sale to everyone, and we're going to close up a shop maybe is maybe what I would do. 19:46 I really do think like there will be either one cryptocurrency that succeeds and the rest will fail. 19:52 So yeah, I just like – I don't – I already think it's a very rivalrous situation. 19:57 You're not going to make a lot of friends. 19:59 So yeah, it's tough. 20:00 eCash is a really good name because it speaks to privacy. 20:03 It speaks to sovereignty. 20:05 It's a great name, and it's tough because you either got to pick a bad name. 20:09 You got to like invent a name like Kubernetes or something. 20:13 You got to invent a weird name. 20:15 Yeah, the naming space is tough. 20:18 And like if we were to really think back, Bitcoin is kind of a dumb name a little bit. 20:25 I hated it at first. 20:27 Yeah, for like at least a year, I was like I hate this name. 20:30 But it makes sense because it's BitTorrent and it's coin. 20:33 Or like bits and bytes like ByteCoin, Bitcoin, like those kinds of things. 20:37 It sounds like it's like nerdy and niche-sounding, but like the fact that you have just presidents of the United States 20:44 and people like that talking about it is like a little – it's a little cringe at this point. 20:48 But it's also so built into the lexicon of the world that it works. 20:54 eCash – the thing about eCash is it's sort of like a very well-understood concept, I guess. 20:59 Like people have heard of – like if you – if there was no crypto at all, 21:03 and people are talking about like it's kind of building like an eCash system or like eCash is a good – 21:08 like people would – even people who didn't know David Chaum's legacy would kind of know what you're talking about. 21:14 It's E – 21:15 Right, yeah. 21:16 So it's a very good name in that way, I think. 21:18 Yeah, and then Electron Cash was like one of them, Electrum. 21:22 Like I think that was Bitcoin Cash's Electrum wallet. 21:25 And it's very well used, but then there's stiff competition, like obviously all those things. 21:32 I don't know where this ranks in terms of stiffness. 21:35 I mean don't clip that and use that clip really. 21:39 But as far as the cash-use stuff where those like semi-custodial showman eCash mints that are popular or were popular, 21:50 it's like the next lightning network on Bitcoin. 21:53 Those are called eCash. 21:54 It's like, oh, I'm saying eCash. 21:56 Right. 21:57 I think to me, though, that's just more evidence of how generic the name is. 22:02 Yeah, and it's – the thing is – and it's always one of those things like if you just called it Cash, 22:08 like then I would be like, well, it's a great name, but you have to fight for it. 22:14 You have to fight all the way up there to get it. 22:16 So. 22:17 Yeah. 22:18 What time did – when did you get the domain, by the way? 22:21 When was that? 22:22 In the summer. 22:23 It was – I think it was late summer. 22:25 It wasn't that long ago, maybe like September or something. 22:27 So I wonder why either the Bitcoin Maxis or the Bitcoin ABC eCash. 22:38 Right. 22:39 I wonder why they didn't manage to get it. 22:41 I wonder if it just wasn't a priority because I have to admit the other eCash's domain, 22:44 and I promise I'll stop talking about it pretty soon, is e.cash, which is a great one. 22:49 Yeah, which is good. 22:50 It's a great one. 22:51 It's funny. 22:52 After I did eCash.com, I put out like the request to buy. 22:58 I tried to buy that one. 23:00 I honestly had no idea that this was Omri's project until like – I just thought it was 23:04 some – you see what I mean? 23:05 This is – I honestly thought it was just some random guy was just like, oh, this is 23:11 a really good name, and I'll just launch like a random – I had no idea it was a serious 23:16 project at all. 23:17 But I still think if you're 160 on CoinMarketCap, like that's it. 23:20 That's like when you're in the hospital and they do like time of death or whatever. 23:25 Why go on with that? 23:27 I don't know. 23:28 Yeah. 23:29 I mean it really depends on like momentum and stuff. 23:31 There have been quite a few that have been – I think Zcash, speaking of caches, was 23:37 200 something CoinMarketCap like a year or so ago, and then they got basically top 11 23:44 recently, like top 10, top 11. 23:46 So like I don't know where they are now. 23:48 It can't happen. 23:49 Top 18 or something. 23:50 So it can't happen, right? 23:52 But it's like – 23:53 I'm surprised that Zcash is so – would have fallen so low. 23:56 Like I know that it's not – it is weird because it has other things like weird dev 24:02 tax and whatever. 24:03 But they were at least like – they had like real like PhDs and stuff working there, and 24:07 so they were at least something. 24:09 So I was surprised that they would fall below like the Bitcoin SV level or whatever. 24:15 This is just all coin chat now, I guess. 24:17 Yes, of course. 24:18 You think like if you're below Bitcoin SV, then it's like, oh man, like – 24:23 It depends on when – the when of Bitcoin SV because right now, Bitcoin SV is 139th 24:29 place, still too high in my estimation, and apologies to people who don't like that. 24:35 I know there's a lot of people who are the SV believers, and they have some good points. 24:41 But yeah, it's tough. 24:43 Many cases like that in the space. 24:45 The thing with like the – the thing that – the last thing on comparing the various 24:50 forks, I'm always going to like – no offense to people who find it funny. 24:54 I am always going to think it's hilarious that another Bitcoin – that there's competing 24:59 Bitcoin forks, like chain forks. 25:02 Yeah, it's very bad for the each of the – it splits the vote in a kind of – in an analogy to democracy. It does make it really hard for anyone to compete against, you know, the number one coin. So that's not good for the end user, because the end user deserves many strong competitors. But yeah, part of the idea – part of the Drivechain idea, as you know, is that no matter what people's disagreement is in it, 25:30 in a technology sense, they can all be part of the same economic coin. So that's a part of it. But this could be like the XKCD thing, where it's like we have 15 competing standards or whatever. 25:40 What we need is a new standard. Oh, now it's 16 or something. I don't know. 25:44 Yeah, it is funny that like it is creating a certain amount of – it is creating a certain amount of controversy, which I guess is good. But the last thing on like the – because when you mentioned BSV, that reminded me of market cap, which market cap is kind of weird arbitrary metric anyway. 26:00 But one thing is when you – so with the Bitcoin quantum threat, you have the whole Satoshi's coins, and I guess this is the first thing we'll probably go into after that. 26:09 But there's a lot of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin was the very first. A lot of Bitcoin is known to be and also suspected to be kind of lost forever. Like it's just not accessible. 26:22 We'll never be – dead people have it, et cetera. Probably much greater than other future projects. So like the actual circulating supply of the coins in real terms, like the actual market cap would probably be lower if all those coins were considered like not there. 26:39 And if you start to then go down the list to like Bitcoin cash, like what percentage of people have even claimed their Bitcoin cash or that actually have that. But again, it's said, oh, like 20 million supply. 26:55 And then of those, when you fork to BSV or to ABC cash, right, that one, then the percentage of like actual coins that exist in circulation is much lower. But yet the market cap is like the market price of the current supply, but it's sort of like multiplied to the 20 million rather than let's just, I don't know, throw out some random unfair number like 12 million or 20 million or 10 million that exists. 27:23 You're saying that the Bitcoin cash market cap is actually in reality lower than it appears on. 27:29 Yes, Bitcoin as well. But the further down the fork list you get, because every time you split there's like – 27:36 Yeah, there's many people who are just like indifferent and they – 27:40 Yeah, so on that, I think that BSV has a very – I would say a very – maybe just me hating, I don't know, but it seems like it might have a very inflated market cap ranking where it should be 300 and something instead. And maybe the same could be instead of like ABC cash. 28:00 Yeah, I mean, I really think like if you have to get to the second page, like how many cryptocurrencies can a normal person name? I mean, I hate to – I'm not trying to say that what a normal person thinks is like how we should steer. 28:14 But I do think – yeah, I would not – if I were running a cryptocurrency project and it was very low in the ranking, I would just be like, well, it's time for a conversation about like do we think we can – because I think you have to get to number one. 28:34 You're either going to get to number one or you're just going to go to zero. So I would say I only want to be a part of something if I think it can go to number one. 28:43 I don't think if you're strapped below 100 for multiple years, then I would say that's a bad sign. You should start over. 28:51 Yeah, I would say for sure first page coin market cap is kind of like if you're trying to be a global financial system or a global platform, like one of these like basically a Bitcoin or Ethereum competitor. 29:05 If you're trying to be one of those, you should stay on page one probably. Again, this is a totally crappy arbitrary metric. 29:12 You should try to stay on there if you have any expectation of succeeding. 29:16 Past that though, if you're doing like very specific targeted use cases, like let's say NIM, the NIM VPN network that has a whole bunch of different mixed nets all over. 29:26 They have their own coin and it's incentivized, like Filecoin, which is big storage, those kinds of things. 29:32 If they're like third, fourth page, I don't really care. 29:35 It's more of like a decentralized company than it is like the global financial system of the future. 29:43 I do, but of course the sidechain vision is that people do all this R&D and they figure out their little decentralized company thing and then you plug all that into just one coin and then one coin will eventually do it. 29:57 It's kind of like we have USB now. 30:00 It's like, oh, people can invent their own printer or something, but eventually we'll have it all standardized and interoperable and then it would be very hard. 30:10 It's very hard for even if you invent the world's greatest printer or something, if it's not a USB cable and then someone else selling a USB printer, it's very hard for you to survive. 30:24 Yeah, well, let's dig into some of the actual stuff. 30:27 I'm going to throw up the website, eCash.com. 30:32 It always goes full circle, right? 30:34 It has the activation thing. 30:36 You have Vlad's interview thing here and then a bunch of stuff like that. 30:41 The why hard fork, FAQ, what to expect, reading, all this stuff. 30:46 I can't necessarily – not that it matters, but I can only see you. 30:49 I can't see what you're doing. 30:50 That's fine. 30:51 I'm just letting you know. 30:52 As long as you know it's on your own site. 30:53 I do. 30:54 I mean, I know what I put there. 30:55 I don't know what the web browser is showing people. 30:58 Yeah. 30:59 We have some young lass on there. 31:01 Where'd that come from? 31:02 Just kidding. 31:03 So first of all, let's define what this is. 31:06 It's a fork of BTC. 31:08 Right. 31:09 And what else is this? 31:11 So I know what Bitcoin is today. 31:13 I think everyone kind of knows what Bitcoin is today other than maybe some small technical details like who knows about Schnorr signatures or whatever. 31:20 But is Bitcoin – what else? 31:23 What's different from copy-paste? 31:26 Well, I think the impetus behind it is that we'll have a coin where we activate a Drivechain, BIP300, BIP301, and then we'll be able to try them out, these different L2s. 31:38 These are merge-mined L2 chains. 31:40 These are what used to be called sidechains. 31:43 And now we'll have a place to try those out. 31:47 BTC is very slow to adopt any soft fork upgrades, but there's more to it than that. 31:53 It's just kind of like the culture of BTC is very static at the moment, and kind of anyone who sticks their neck out to do anything doesn't get very far. 32:06 So even if they activated BIP300 in BTC, that would not be enough. 32:10 There would need to be a total cultural revolution prioritizing these merge-mined L2s. 32:16 So all that's probably not going to happen, even though that would help a lot of the miners make more money and probably save a lot of them from bankruptcy. 32:25 They're still not going to do it. 32:27 I'm not exactly sure why, but I think that's a mistake. 32:31 On a technical level, then, it's just Bitcoin plus BIP300, and then that's it, right? 32:37 There's still SHA-256 mined. 32:41 Right. 32:42 Basically, the L1 is exactly the same as Bitcoin Core. 32:45 And even the BIP300-301, even that itself, I have a way of activating it without changing any lines of code in Bitcoin Core. 32:57 You run a second client next to it. 32:59 This is the Core Untouched Soft Fork. 33:01 And so even to activate that, there won't actually be any change in. 33:05 So even on a technical, technical level, technical squared, it's basically Bitcoin Core is the L1. 33:13 And the purpose of that is to say, oh, everyone who loves Bitcoin Core, hey, you still have that over here. 33:19 I do reduce the L1 block size. 33:22 Oh, so the block size is changed. 33:24 That's the one. 33:25 Yeah. 33:26 It's a very frivolous change, though, frankly. 33:29 But it's lower. 33:32 So now this is the smallest block. 33:34 Of all the forks, this is the smallest block. 33:37 So what is it? 33:38 300 kilobytes? 33:40 400. 33:41 Yeah, because it's 4 megabytes. 33:43 After SegWit, it's 4 megabytes on BTC. 33:45 And so I cut it to 400 kilobytes. 33:48 Including like the witness data kind of like? 33:52 Yeah, I cut the whole – like them all by – yeah, exactly. 33:55 Interesting. 33:56 So the other change, I guess, that I wasn't really thinking or aware of, I guess, is on distribution, which goes to like the mention of like the Satoshi's coins thing. 34:08 Yes. 34:09 So I've only seen most – 34:11 I knew this would be controversial. 34:13 Yeah, I mostly just saw like angry accusations, and I didn't see the details. 34:17 So I don't honestly know. 34:19 So why don't you tell me? 34:20 What do you plan on doing with Satoshi's coins or other people's coins who are being forked? 34:25 Yeah, the 1.1 million coins matching the so-called Potoshi pattern. 34:31 These are early coins mined by Satoshi that have never been moved. 34:36 We are reassigning some of them. 34:39 They end up being less than half to the investors who support the project before the fork. 34:49 So that is – we are giving these coins to people who buy them now basically. 34:56 Yeah. 34:57 So what is – so first of all, what is the thought process behind that? 35:04 Like, yeah. 35:05 Well, there's quite a few things. 35:07 So a lot of people think that this is like – they sort of smell blood in the water, and they think, oh, this is like the weak part of this project. 35:16 And they think, well, this is like a desperate move, and it violates property rights and all this stuff. 35:22 I think really none of that is true, and actually the whole Satoshi's coins part is not a weak point of the project at all because the thing is, for 10 years, we put out a separate version of this project that does not mess with Satoshi's coins. 35:41 And in fact, this second version of the project, it doesn't – it's not even a hard fork of Bitcoin because the second version of the project is just BIP300 itself. 35:52 So we've already been giving away for free the one that's not a hard fork and the one that's not interfering with Satoshi's coins. 36:01 And so people have to kind of – the implication is that if it weren't for this Satoshi's coins thing, then they would be supporters of the project. 36:11 But you and I know that that's not remotely true at all. 36:15 I don't think that that's the primary – I think people – if I were to guess, people who do not want to support the project are either Bitcoin maximalists who don't think this is not Bitcoin, therefore they're not interested, or they are people in other cryptocurrencies that just don't see the reason why this one is better. 36:33 But I don't think any of those people are going to be like, well, I was on board until – I don't know how many, to be clear. 36:39 There might be some. 36:40 There might be some who buy into the whole vision but then are like, I don't like that part. 36:43 Well, that's the addressing a why not kind of thing. 36:47 But what about the why? 36:48 Why do this? 36:50 I mean you could – 36:51 Yeah, why do it as well. 36:52 In part because – 36:53 You could like take some coins that are tied to Roger Ver and just take some of them instead or just take none of them or take the whole supply. 37:02 Why? 37:04 Yeah, or we could have 22 million coins, or we could try to pre-mine some coins, or we could try to quickly mine some coins at the moment. 37:10 There are a lot of possibilities. 37:13 Well, one thing is I looked into the Petoshi research and actually – at first I was a big skeptic, but then I was like, okay. 37:20 Actually, it's very convincing that all these coins were mined by – all these coins including the first Bitcoin blocks, they were all mined by like a special miner, which means it was Satoshi who mined all these coins. 37:36 Another thing is the coins have never moved, which suggests that they might be – they were not mined for the purpose of being spent. 37:46 There's more evidence to suggest this. 37:48 In the Petoshi mining research, there's a special – the way the miner operated was after it found a block, it would wait for five minutes to see if anyone else – to give everyone else a chance. 38:02 And then if no one else found a block, it would turn back on, and it would mine super fast. 38:06 And so this was clearly an attempt to keep the difficulty low, and it was also clearly an attempt to keep the network moving at 10-minute blocks, which makes it look more like just an altruistic act, and he wasn't even after the coins. 38:22 He was just trying to keep the blockchain moving at a regular pace to process the transactions. 38:27 Now, does that imply that he doesn't have access to the coins, or he intended to? 38:31 No, I think it maybe implies that he just didn't mine them in order to – it may also imply that he knows that they were all mined in like a vulnerable way, so to take one of them might – they all might not be linked. 38:46 There's more to it than that though. 38:49 I think the hard fork is very difficult to pull off, and I don't want – like imagine if you have a pure hard fork that you announce is going to happen next year. 38:58 There's no reason – there's no time pressure for people to get involved today, so why would anyone pay attention to it now? 39:05 You need a reason to get resources and work done on the fork before it happens because really you have two options, which is one is you can try to work really hard on the fork. 39:22 This is what Satoshi did. You can try to work really hard on your project, invest a bunch of time up front, and then finish it, and then bring it to the world, and this is what Satoshi did. 39:34 And then – or you could say, well, here's the new hard fork. 39:38 This is more like – a little bit more like what Bitcoin Cash did where it was kind of like this fork happened in August, and then in November it was kind of like everyone switched to it after the fact. 39:51 You have to have like a mad scramble for it. 39:54 Now, if you want to bring the Bitcoin community along, you kind of have to give them advance notice I think, and you also want the project to be basically finished in advance. 40:06 So yeah, of course what Satoshi did was he like altruistically put in all the work, then released the project, and then he altruistically mined for a while, and then didn't touch the coins. 40:17 And so that's obviously very impressive. 40:20 I will say something about that standard of doing things. 40:23 It sort of started a standard of this is the way you should do it because Satoshi did it, and I think it made sense for Satoshi starting things out, but it's entirely unrealistic as a standard. 40:35 What I did notice in the early days is you had a lot of projects that were pretending to do this. 40:43 They were pretending to be like, oh, we're going to be like Satoshi, and we're going to do it all altruistically. 40:50 But then you had things like, for example, I've heard some rumors through the grapevine that Charlie Lee intentionally built in an inflation bug so he could get some of the early coins on the day one of the Litecoin launch. 41:01 I've heard there's some early projects, like I think Monero had a ninja mine where a crippled miner was released in the early days that was not publicly available, and the privately available miner mined way faster. 41:16 People were just doing all these underhanded ways of basically getting startup capital. 41:20 Then you had things like Decred and Digibyte, which did have a pre-mine, but not much, like a small one, to just get things started. 41:29 Then you got onto Ethereum with the first ICO. 41:33 Zcash had startup capital from VCs, and they got the 20% of the block reward for the first few years in terms of the founder's reward. 41:43 Now we're in full-on, everything's VC unlock mode and stuff. 41:46 So you do need money to start projects, right? 41:50 But there's transparent ways of doing it, and then there's not transparent ways of doing it. 41:57 I would add that I'm not actually comfortable with what Satoshi did, in fact, even though I was very generous of him. 42:03 I've benefited enormously as a result of him inventing Bitcoin, and the idea that the official plan is that he has to altruistically sacrifice so much time and money, I'm actually not very comfortable with that. 42:19 I'm a little more comfortable with, for example, when they give Elon Musk huge performance pay or something like that. 42:25 I think that's a little bit more where you think, well, okay, if it's a good job, then everyone benefits, and you have some incentive alignment. 42:35 So I think anything that relies on altruism has the downside that it's going to punish the people who are acting the most altruistic way. 42:48 So I think that's actually kind of perverse, I think. I don't think that's a great idea. 42:53 So yeah, there has to be some source of funding, and you really want the people who help you earliest to have a disproportionate payoff if the project is ultimately a success. 43:08 And so that was part of why I do it in the first place, is an intentional choice to try to, okay, we can get some people who have skin in the game so that by the time the fork happens, there will be a whole new coalition of users. 43:23 I have to add that it's partially also to create controversy and trick people into talking about it. 43:27 And it's also partially because, okay, all these people who are haters of this idea, who are going to say that they hate this steel stoches coins phrase or whatever. 43:36 But the point is, these people already hated Drivechain when it was a for-free project on Bitcoin that was going to basically kill all altcoins, kill all shitcoins. 43:50 It would be like the super maximalist project, but they still hated it then. 43:53 So these people already hate the project, and it's like you're sacrificing a chess piece that's already been captured or something. 44:02 You know what I mean? 44:03 We're going to shift and make sure that instead we can kind of monetize their anger now, because now they'll be talking about it. 44:09 They'll be showing the project. 44:12 No one will really know, like, are they actually – do they actually have a thought about it? 44:18 I mean, think about it like this. 44:20 What a lot of these people are trying to say – and this is – I don't know how many people this is going to end up being, but the critics of this – which I knew this would be controversial, this stoches coin reassignment concept. 44:33 But what these people often are saying is two things at once, whereas on one hand they're saying this project is a terrible project. 44:40 It's going to go to zero, and it's completely worthless. 44:43 We went from a world where this project didn't exist to a world where a completely worthless project is now coming to existence, worth zero. 44:51 So it's going to start at zero, and it's going to be worth zero. 44:54 And this is basically what these people are saying on one hand. 44:57 But then on the other hand they're saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. 45:00 They're kind of representing Satoshi. 45:02 They're sort of trying to speak on Satoshi's behalf, like as if they were his lawyer or something. 45:06 Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. 45:09 That you're stealing. 45:11 You know what I mean? 45:12 So they have to equivocate on do they think this is a good idea overall, like objectively. 45:17 So when they say they care about Satoshi's coins, they're saying that they think the idea is actually very valuable, and I'm depriving Satoshi of an extremely valuable piece of property. 45:25 So I tricked them into shilling the idea indirectly. 45:28 I'm not sure how many of them will consciously realize that. 45:31 But I think there is a subconscious – I think some people are kind of grappled with the fact that can you steal something that you didn't even know existed like one hour ago? 45:40 And I think some people are going to grapple with that. 45:43 But like if it's non-claimed by Satoshi, then it probably doesn't belong to him. 45:47 If this happened on the BTC chain, then that would be awful, right? 45:52 That would be very clear. 45:53 Right. That's the thing. 45:54 This is not the BTC, so nothing can take Satoshi's coins. 45:58 Or squatting, like theft or grave robbing, one or the other. 46:03 Right. 46:04 But in this case – 46:05 It's amusing. 46:06 So here's a funny fact to think about, by the way. 46:09 What if this whole fork launches, everything's fine, but then a month later the remainder of Satoshi's coins get moved? 46:17 That would be really bizarre. 46:19 Yeah. 46:20 That would make me concerned. 46:21 So if that happened and this person proved that they were Satoshi Nakamoto and claimed those coins and then they wanted it back. 46:28 They said, whatever you haven't spent, can you just give it to me, please? 46:31 There's my coins. 46:32 I honestly think you would have to. 46:34 Yeah, because I think – actually the premise I'm working off of is that Satoshi has indirectly consented to the transaction in a way. 46:44 I know a lot of people won't accept that. 46:46 It's like a speak now or forever hold your peace. 46:48 Because I'm trying to say something like either it's possible to improve Bitcoin so substantially that we flip it and become the number one coin. 46:56 Which, again, I don't think is likely, but I think is something like 10 percent possible. 47:00 So I think – I mean I'm starting to get a little – this is what we can talk about is like why do we need a hedge against BTC failing? 47:10 I mean you and I know, but a lot of the BTC maximalists will be thinking like, well, isn't it already perfect and it's immortal and it will never go down and blah, blah, blah. 47:20 So I'm personally getting a little nervous and I think that we need like a hedge against failure of BTC, which is why I'm creating this. 47:27 Now, if it pays off and I'm right, then all that will mean is that the project, the BTC project was vulnerable to replacement this whole time. 47:36 And he's kind of lucky that I replaced it and it's this and not something else, and he still has half of his coins. 47:42 So I'm kind of saying – I'm kind of telling Satoshi like, listen, for a 50 percent cut, I'll sell you this option where you can only benefit. 47:51 Either this project is a total failure and nothing happens to you. It's free. 47:55 Or if I save your 1.1 million coins, we get half. 48:02 So yeah, it's really like kind of a Pareto improvement if you think about it. 48:07 But I don't expect – the Twitter mob is just the Twitter mob. 48:12 And the extent to which they talk about the project, they are actually affirming that it has value. 48:25 Yes, or at least it's valuable to – it has value or has threatening capabilities for whatever reason. 48:33 If everything were fine and BTC – sorry to interrupt. 48:36 But if everything were super fine in BTC, then this project would have a zero percent chance of succeeding and there would be no reason to talk about it. 48:43 There would be no reason for people to weigh in on it. 48:45 But we all know they probably will. 48:47 Yes. 48:48 They will talk about it. 48:49 If Bitcoin had a 95 percent chance of succeeding, there also would be very little controversy. 48:55 But it's just the fact that it's there. 48:58 But it's like – and that's one of those things with like I think – not to go back on the eCash name. 49:04 Which by the way, if you had to fight it out for it, who's going to be eCash and who's going to be eCash Cash? 49:10 Because – 49:11 Yes, that would be funny, of course. 49:13 I don't think – part of the reason why I'm doing this eCash thing is because I didn't want to put Bitcoin in the name. 49:18 I thought about putting like Bitcoin Arena or Bitcoin Drivechain or something weird like that. 49:23 But I think it's bad to fight over the brand. 49:25 So I didn't want to take – I thought when I was naming eCash that I wasn't even – but I mean this is why I say I think it makes the eCash people look even worse. 49:32 Because I'm telling you the truth is that I really looked and I thought – I made an honest attempt to see like what is this. 49:40 And I just thought, oh, this is just some 160 market cap nothing coin. 49:44 And I didn't even know. 49:45 And I'm like a leading expert on Bitcoin. 49:48 And I had no idea that even – I knew that Omri did ABC. 49:53 And I had no idea that it was – so I mean I'm just saying like I'm not saying that that – 50:02 I'm not saying that that automatically means that they have no chance. But I think like that's going to be really tough. So I feel bad. I do feel bad about that. But I think like, yeah, that's not – this speaks to the – the coin market cap is cause and effect, unfortunately. 50:18 But the thing is to me it's just funny to me that it was a – it was accident. And it is funny that I don't know where the market caps of both coins are going to be in the next few – whenever this thing launches. 50:49 It's like God's playing tricks on us through these coincidences to make – just make a funny – it's a funny situation. It just makes me laugh. So thank you guys for making me laugh. 50:59 So we got this split. So I think one of those concerns – and I think Jonathan Silverblood – I don't know if you've heard of him. He's a Bitcoin Cash guy. I think I saw him post some sort of objection to the Satoshi repo, so to speak. 51:18 Basically saying if they can decide to repossess those coins, they can do anyone's coins. And so let's just take that as a question, I guess. Why – so first of all, it's not a repossession because it's not a possession to begin with. 51:34 But it seems like most forks that I've seen just seem to copy-paste the whole supply over with ease in the whole – what should we call it? The distribution. They copy-paste the distribution. 51:49 Yeah, it goes right over. The only – there were a few forks where this didn't happen. And so one of them was – I don't know if you remember Steam from back in the day. 52:00 I do. 52:01 When Justin Sun bought Steemit, the main website, and just tried to take over the chain. And basically they had a chain split at that point into Hive, which is the surviving fork. 52:12 It would be like if Bitcoin died and Bitcoin Cash was the only one that's still around kind of thing. 52:16 But as part of that, the reason why they split is because they had a delegated proof-of-stake system, so they couldn't have their own – they couldn't have a sovereign chain by having Justin Sun still have the same coins. 52:28 So they took his coins, again the attacker coins, and they turned them into a DAO that would be paid for development and stuff like that. 52:36 But it was like a survival necessity to repo those coins. 52:41 So what about this decision of like you're repoing some of them, but then why still the rest of the coins? 52:49 Like why not all of Satoshi's coins? And also why not just all the coins? 52:53 Like literally the entire supply and then just give them away with a faucet or pre-sale. 52:58 Like why keep some of the existing – 95% or 99% of the existing UTXO distribution, but only in this one case sort of break that rule? 53:10 Well, I do agree that it's sort of like once you take one coin, you have kind of crossed the line to some extent. 53:16 But I don't think it's to that much of an extent. 53:19 Like can't you just say that you're going to do something just because you think it's a good – you weighed all the considerations and you had to make a judgment call and you just stand by it? 53:29 Like why does everything have to be like – like aren't there other options other than like okay, if you take half of Satoshi's coins, then you can take any coins, you can take no coins. 53:41 It's like I don't see why it has to be all or nothing. 53:46 Like what we're doing is producing open source software and giving it away for free. 53:53 And I think it's very good. In fact, I think it's some of the best open source software out there. 53:59 So it's like what we've produced is much better than the Lightning Network. 54:03 It's much better than having – it's much better than living in a world of altcoins. 54:06 So like having a Zcash-based L2 Drivechain is just better than having Zcash itself. 54:13 We have EVM, but I discontinued it because it wasn't that interesting, but we could turn it back on. 54:19 We have an EVM, Ethereum L2. 54:21 So we like built a bunch of stuff that is the best in the world and we're giving it away for free. 54:29 And it can scale to 8 billion users and process all the transactions on earth and collect transaction fees from them and give miners hundreds of billions of dollars a year in revenue. 54:41 So we're doing all this stuff and giving it away for free. 54:44 And just the way that anyone would be able to finance that in an honest way. 54:49 Because I'm also not comfortable going to investors and saying, listen, if we do a really good job, you won't get any more ROI than that. 54:55 I really would prefer to go to investors and say, listen, here's the project. 54:59 If we do a really good job, you'll make a lot of money. 55:01 But if we do a terrible job, then the project will suck and you'll lose your money. 55:08 So at the end of the day, we're going to produce all this stuff that's open source that even BTC could use for free if it wanted to. 55:20 It probably should use. 55:22 It probably should use. Right. Exactly. 55:24 So we're going to have to, but they won't. 55:27 And so we're going to have to deal with the cultural, the defective culture of BTC. 55:33 And that's why the hard fork exists at all. 55:37 It's because the BTC culture is deranged. 55:41 Yeah. Well, let's talk practically about that. 55:43 So when we last talked a couple of years ago or something like that, the idea was to launch this as a soft fork on Bitcoin and launch Drivechains, I should say, and then go from there. 55:57 And what was the barrier to making that happen? 56:02 So first of all, for a soft fork, what percentage of the hash rate would you have needed to have it not split off to a different fork? 56:12 So a 51% hash rate can activate any soft fork. 56:17 And I invented this thing, CUSF, the Core Untouched Soft Fork. 56:22 So it doesn't even have to go through a Bitcoin core. 56:25 But the problem is that it's not just about whether or not you activate an opcode. 56:31 That's really, that would be like saying, if we just need to do, all we need to do is pass a law, like lowering the speed limit on the highway. 56:42 It's the real thing is in people's minds. 56:45 That's the real substance is the culture. 56:48 And so, you know, on the highway, people just speed and there are certain highways and there are certain highway intersections where like one highway is kind of, have you ever had this happen? 56:57 One highway is like the slow highway. But then as soon as everyone gets onto a different one, it's like off to the races, you know, it's like, but they're both like three lane. 57:05 So sometimes people speed and sometimes people speed a lot and sometimes people speed only a little. 57:11 And it just it just speaks to the culture. 57:13 Like if you go to a different, you know, like you try littering and people don't really litter in like Colorado or Japan. 57:21 But then, you know, in New Jersey or whatever, like people litter. 57:25 So. So it would be like saying we got the op code, but it's that's not really about it. 57:33 We should live in a world where all the Bitcoiners are very excited to activate BIP300 because they know it's a completely safe opt in reversible soft fork. 57:43 And they know that it will let them get, you know, something that's much better than the Lightning Network, which is large block optional L2 Drivechain. 57:52 And they know it will let them get Zcash privacy and they know it will let them take all these altcoins and all this PhD research that everyone else has been doing and just take it and say we have all this stuff and it will bring back competition among developers. 58:06 And, you know, so that you have there's no developer capture problem. 58:12 And so it's like, OK, no matter what our developers do, it doesn't matter because now we have like two or three different competing L2s that are competing for our money. 58:18 And there would be like Vitalik would be running like a root stock Drivechain and it would be like EVM and Roger Ver would be running like a large block L2 of Bitcoin. 58:28 Everyone would be in the same. So people should be like, you know, champing at the BIP. 58:33 They should be like screaming and cheering that like they can't possibly wait any longer. 58:39 And the miners as well. They should be saying like, we can't wait to collect the merge mine transaction fees from all these chains. 58:45 But everyone should be like, you know, beating a path down to like to get to get to this as quickly as possible. 58:52 And even the developers could be like, listen, we're not calm. We can't review all this code. 58:56 We got to push this stuff into L2s. This is what they used to say about the Lightning Network. 59:00 They said we don't want to be responsible for all this stuff. 59:03 We just want to make a simple change on L1 where all it is is basically SPV plus counting to 13000. 59:10 And we're just going to use this OPNAP5 and we'll just ship this one chain out the door. 59:14 And then whenever people come to us and say, oh, what about CTV? What about TX hash? 59:19 What about great whatever, blah, blah, blah. What about quantum? 59:22 We can just tell them good to go do it on L2 first and then see how that works out and then maybe come back. 59:29 So everyone should be literally trying as hard as possible to get BIP300 activated on BTC in a sort of a sane world. 59:39 But you see, so it's not really about like, it's just the culture just isn't there, which I accept. 59:45 And that's the other reason about why are people criticizing this project. 59:48 It makes no sense because I'm just accepting that they either sort of like, you know, they don't want it on BTC. 59:54 They can't do it somewhere else. So these are the irrationalities that I think on a subconscious level people will pick up on. 1:00:01 Which is why more people will probably be talking about this idea in the future. 1:00:05 Well, so was there just not a lot of positive response for Bitcoin? 1:00:13 Individually. Oh, sorry. 1:00:15 Yeah, because if you look at it, like Bitcoin has undergone a series of changes since 2016, 17, whenever. 1:00:24 Where SegWit was highly controversial in some camps, but then that got added. 1:00:30 And then was it Taproot got added, a few other little things got added here and there. 1:00:36 And it didn't seem like there's much controversy around those things that happened. 1:00:41 And of course, the Bitcoin nuts world, right, seems to say that it's basically like the core developers, the tinkering that gets into the roadmap and gets implemented. 1:00:53 And so it's not like, I think that something like Drivechains is not infeasible from like a technical scope or risk. 1:01:03 Or it's not like, wow, this is so much different from the things that have been done. 1:01:07 People have done these changes, done things like ending the OPR return limits for an individual transaction. 1:01:15 Things to make way for, like SegWit and things were like to prepare for lightning allegedly. 1:01:19 And then, you know, Taproot and stuff like that. 1:01:23 And then the insinuation was that the OPR return limit being removed was to prepare for Citrea. 1:01:31 And so there's a bunch of very similar things like that have happened. 1:01:37 So what is the key difference in why BIP300, you didn't see as viable to, like they didn't have the support to be a viable soft fork to Bitcoin? 1:01:48 Well, first of all, of course, SegWit was very controversial. 1:01:51 I mean, as you know, and it had to activate in like this weird way. 1:01:55 And then I think Taproot was kind of like a weird echo of that where it was a reshadow, maybe is a better word, where miners realized that they had been blamed for how slow SegWit activated. 1:02:07 So they kind of rushed to activate Taproot. 1:02:10 Since then, we've had nothing. 1:02:11 So there's been a huge slowdown. 1:02:13 Like in the first seven years of Bitcoin, there were something like 14 different soft forks. 1:02:18 There were every six months. 1:02:20 Not with that regularity, but there were a lot of the rate, the average rate. 1:02:26 And then with SegWit, it took 20 months from when it was first proposed when it finally activated on the network. 1:02:32 And then with Taproot, it took 46 months from when it was proposed to when it finally activated on the network. 1:02:37 And since then, there hasn't been anything that is activated. 1:02:39 And there have been many attempts by other people to activate. 1:02:44 So Jeremy Rubin tried to activate CTV. 1:02:46 He gave up after less than a day. 1:02:49 Wow, that's brutal. 1:02:52 You should have him on. 1:02:54 It's an interesting story. 1:02:56 And then there was OP_CAT. 1:02:59 I think OP_CAT is actually the smoking gun that proves that the culture is defective and the process is defective. 1:03:06 But I mean, there's plenty of other things to say. 1:03:07 So before I get to OP_CAT, he was like preparing. 1:03:14 He prepared Taproot. 1:03:16 But then he said like he had made these numerous comments here and there that he was too emotionally exhausted to discuss the activation of it because it was too contentious. 1:03:28 Yeah, I know. I actually it's funny you laugh at that because I actually also was laughing at it. 1:03:32 Like I was thinking to myself, like, I don't know when it's funny. 1:03:34 It is sad. 1:03:36 But I was also sad in several ways where it's like, OK, first of all, the emotional oppression is very strong. 1:03:43 And so that is real. 1:03:45 But then I was thinking, I think this was like last year or something. 1:03:48 I was thinking like I was sort of thinking and then chuckling to myself. 1:03:51 And I was like, you know, there's a real war going on in Ukraine. 1:03:54 And like people, 18 year old kids are getting like blown up and like losing limbs and dying and stuff. 1:03:59 And I was like, but Peter can't like I was kind of this is kind of a little bit of a joke. 1:04:04 Because I understand exactly where where Peter's coming from. 1:04:08 But I do. I was kind of thinking like, oh, you know, the horror of it all. 1:04:12 Like my job is so hard to have to deal with activation. 1:04:14 That reminds me of a Chris Rock joke from back in the day where he talked about Nelson Mandela spending so much time in prison and terrible conditions making it through. 1:04:24 And then he was within like something like six months of being out. 1:04:27 He got divorced. 1:04:29 He was just like he could handle all that stuff. 1:04:32 But within six months, he's like, I can't take this anymore. 1:04:34 This is worse than prison. 1:04:36 And he did that. 1:04:38 So it kind of I mean, obviously. 1:04:40 Yeah, it's a real prison. 1:04:42 Having like dealt with I mean, I've been in stuck my nose in a few different crypto governance wars. 1:04:47 And it's well, it can't be taxing. 1:04:50 I don't know about like having your house bombed type stuff, but it is a pain. 1:04:55 I understand being like, yeah, especially who needs it. 1:04:58 If you don't, if you don't, if you can do without it, then why not do without it? 1:05:03 Yeah, but yeah, but this is just because for those who don't know, he's like an extremely respected high status, like technical person. 1:05:11 He's a very nice person. 1:05:13 So it's kind of like the idea that's very demoralizing that he is like a sort of leader. 1:05:17 Even the big blockers like don't really say much about it. 1:05:21 They disagree with some of the right. 1:05:22 But he's like a very polite kind of guy, too. 1:05:25 So everyone. 1:05:26 But then it's kind of like this is the thing with the bitter comes the sweet. 1:05:29 If you're going to be Mr. 1:05:30 Nice, polite guy, then it's like you're participating in nothing getting done. 1:05:35 So I don't know. 1:05:36 I'm not trying to I'm just throwing it out there. 1:05:38 So I'll get up cat is unless you have something really important. 1:05:42 No, I'll go to that. 1:05:44 So I'll get is like 13 lines of code. 1:05:47 All it does is take X and Y and returns X, Y. 1:05:50 You know, it really doesn't do that much. 1:05:52 It was in the original version of Bitcoin for a long time. 1:05:56 I mean, it'd be at some point. 1:05:59 I mean, 2009, which, by the way, it was in the YouTube live chat here. 1:06:03 There was a joke about what we call this Bitcoin for about Bitcoin starts vision. 1:06:08 The new. Yeah, that's when you get to. 1:06:10 I like that. 1:06:11 You get funny. I like. 1:06:12 Then you get to be also BSV and compete with another one. 1:06:16 That's hidden. 1:06:17 It's like eCash starts vision. 1:06:18 You do eCash SV. 1:06:20 I'll do like doesn't be my next. 1:06:21 But you have to do. 1:06:22 Yeah, next one should be BSV. 1:06:24 Bitcoin starts vision. 1:06:26 Is there any way of making it even funnier? 1:06:27 Like is there other than the different B word? 1:06:29 Like, I don't know. 1:06:30 I think of something funny. 1:06:32 By cash. 1:06:33 Be cash. 1:06:34 Be cash starts. 1:06:35 That's funny. 1:06:36 Be cash starts. 1:06:38 I mean, at a certain point, someone really some online troll. 1:06:41 I'm going to have to call it that. 1:06:42 They're going to make it. 1:06:44 Because a troll will do it otherwise. 1:06:46 Yeah, someone's already registering the domain probably. 1:06:50 But yeah, some of these are such like only. 1:06:53 These are like inside jokes at this point. 1:06:55 Of course. 1:06:56 But they're very good. 1:06:57 But so OP_CAT basically just got completely stonewalled. 1:07:00 What does that look like, by the way? 1:07:02 OP_CAT is very, very, very tame. 1:07:04 And a lot of people thought it's also very useful. 1:07:06 And it's also, again, it's one of these op-nop opcodes. 1:07:10 So it's very, very easy to just say. 1:07:12 Like if you say we're going to use op-nop 6 as OP_CAT. 1:07:15 You can very easily later ship a version that just says never use op-nop 6 again. 1:07:20 And this effectively turns it off and restores the original operation of the network pre-activation. 1:07:27 So these are all like opt-in, ignorable, reversible. 1:07:31 And it's kind of just like what on earth more do people want? 1:07:37 But then on top of that, there was people like Udi tweeting. 1:07:40 I believe this was at the beginning of 2024. 1:07:44 Someone can look this up and find exactly what it is. 1:07:47 But it was something like he said something like, well, when OP_CAT activates later this year with no controversy, 1:07:54 he's like, I'll be accepting everyone's apology or something like that. 1:07:57 I probably butchered the quote. 1:07:59 But basically the point of the quote is he's very confident that it would have activated by the end of some year. 1:08:05 I think it might have been 2023. 1:08:07 I think it was 2024. 1:08:08 And the narrator, he did not, in fact, accept anyone's apology. 1:08:12 Yeah, exactly. And it did not activate. 1:08:14 And the question is why? 1:08:16 And I think the answer is everyone, you know, there's courage is in very short supply. 1:08:21 Everyone, whenever you propose an idea, everyone kind of is vaguely aware of the fact that no ideas have gotten through. 1:08:28 And people are sort of nervous about like, what will other people think if I get on board with this? 1:08:34 So actually, it's this weird kind of stigma for proposing anything new, even something like OP_CAT, which effectively does almost nothing. 1:08:43 And I think, again, the smoking gun is also this Op return drama, because the Op return drama does effectively almost nothing. 1:08:52 Because what Luke Dashjr.'s position is that he's OK with certain images being in the blockchain, 1:08:57 but he's not OK with them being on a tiny portion of the mempools that, you know, are not receiving transactions and are not actually generating blocks. 1:09:09 So these are like dead end mempool, dead end nodes and dead end mempools that these images would be in temporarily. 1:09:16 But he's fine with them being in the blockchain. 1:09:18 And this is like a complete waste of time for anyone to talk about this at all. 1:09:22 But we've been talking about it for two years and it's just all a big waste of time. 1:09:25 But this is how low we've fallen. 1:09:28 I will agree with that on Luke's thing. 1:09:32 Because Luke, so BIP, was it BIP 100ers? 1:09:37 110, I think. 1:09:39 Whatever it is now. I sort of have a side eye on that. 1:09:42 I even called it Bitcoin's caveman war because of just how much like, you know, Neanderthal thinking seemed to go into it. 1:09:48 That group does have a lot of the same, like, a lot of the freedom money kind of virtue signals that appeal to someone like me. 1:09:56 So in terms of that with the core versus nots debate type thing, I kind of like emotionally went with the nots people and intellectually went with the core people more than the other. 1:10:09 It's a very good mix because the nots people are correct. 1:10:13 The nots people are correct about a lot of things. 1:10:15 They just, unfortunately, they picked this opporturn issue, which is a total losing issue. 1:10:19 I don't know why they picked this issue. 1:10:21 But they could have, if they just wanted to say the core is corrupt and that there's no accountability and there's no oversight and there's no way. 1:10:28 All that is perfectly true. 1:10:30 Yeah, absolutely. 1:10:32 So when we talk about like practical things, right, we're talking about social consensus here. 1:10:36 So, but in terms of practical, how do you get into the chain? 1:10:40 Is you get enough miners to basically run it? 1:10:43 Now, what's that process like? 1:10:46 It seems, I mean, it seems like because there's not enough social consensus, you didn't feel confident in getting miner support. 1:10:53 Is there any kind of an avenue to go directly to mining pools and things and say, look, activate this, it'll be worth it and just try to lobby miners to just do this? 1:11:04 Or do you think miners, which is kind of 2017 era Bitcoin politics, right? 1:11:09 Or is it in 2026 now, miners are just super reactive to things. 1:11:16 They're not going to run something without broad consensus, whatever that means. 1:11:20 That's certainly the case, which is that a lot of them are worried about things like optics or whatever. 1:11:25 I think many of them will be going bankrupt because of their preoccupation with this. 1:11:29 I've been saying this for many years. 1:11:31 I think I've been right the entire time. 1:11:33 But yeah, I think there's a couple of facets to it. 1:11:35 One is the end miner. 1:11:39 So there's a lot of when we say miner, we're talking about like one word, but actually there's many different things. 1:11:44 So like at the end of the day, there's someone who owns an ASIC and they plug it into their data center. 1:11:49 And they may have spent millions of dollars and they spend all this money on electricity and cooling and whatnot. 1:11:59 That person is a miner. 1:12:02 And to those people, they don't know that much about Bitcoin actually. 1:12:07 And they may not even be Bitcoiners because they just point at the pool. 1:12:10 The pool pays them. 1:12:12 They sell and they have to finance all this electricity and whatnot. 1:12:16 The other thing that's recently happened over the last two or three years is now, ever since the large language models, those people have an out. 1:12:24 So those people, like the end hasher, the ASIC owner, they can pivot to whatever, like they can pivot to AI data center or something. 1:12:39 And even the people who manufacture the ASIC chips, they have a very specialized investment. 1:12:45 But of course, I don't know the details on this. 1:12:48 We'd have to get somebody who's like a world expert in chip fabrication to tell us this. 1:12:51 But I'm pretty sure they're trying really hard to design the next generation of ASIC chip year after year after year after year. 1:13:00 I'm pretty sure they can put those skills towards just designing some other chip and producing some other chip. 1:13:05 So there's some expertise that builds up, but then there's some just general expertise. 1:13:10 So these people actually have outs. 1:13:12 They can actually cut and run pretty easily. 1:13:14 Not many of them are particularly loyal to the Bitcoin like software or the Bitcoin product even. 1:13:23 So we're also in a situation where if they do something that's good for Bitcoin, even if they do something that's good for transaction fees and the Bitcoin price. 1:13:32 Ultimately, in the long run, the difficulty will adjust upwards and cancel that out. 1:13:37 So they have actually a very limited ability to care about improving Bitcoin. 1:13:45 Whereas in contrast, if you're someone who owns Bitcoin, you really need it to be BTC that goes up or down and you really need it to be the Bitcoin software. 1:13:53 So now if we turn our attention to the pools, the pools also have some weird conflicts of interest where a lot of these are very bizarre. 1:14:01 And I think people would be surprised to learn just how screwed up and weird this situation is. 1:14:04 But to activate a soft fork, you need 51 percent of the hash rate. 1:14:12 And that means you need a lot of pools involved. 1:14:16 Now, this creates these like veto points where you need a lot of pools involved. 1:14:24 Each pool will be thinking to themselves, well, listen, who do I mostly compete against? 1:14:29 It's the other pools. 1:14:31 It's like, you know, Foundry is competing against Ant Pool or whatever. 1:14:34 So if like they have a very limited incentive to do something that's good for the whole network overall, actually. 1:14:44 I'm not saying that this is a very strong effect, but it is something that people should keep in mind. 1:14:48 Like they why would you know what they're thinking about is how can I do something? 1:14:52 How can I do something in my pool that causes people to leave Ant Pool or something and come into my pool? 1:14:59 And I guess something like the common project, like the soft fork, doesn't fit into that. 1:15:08 But interestingly, the pools, I think, don't have as much of an out where like if you're a Bitcoin mining pool, it's not like you can pivot to AI or something. 1:15:15 So I think they may eventually discover. I don't know how late in the game it will be, but they may discover that they actually the soft forks were in their best interests all along. 1:15:26 But then, of course, you have people like Saylor and stuff like the soft ossificationists, or at least they think they're ossificationists. 1:15:33 I think they don't really know what they're doing because, of course, Bitcoin Core keeps putting out new versions every six months anyway, like despite what they do. 1:15:41 But yeah, a lot of people think like we don't want this maybe changes how we'd have to describe Bitcoin or something. 1:15:47 So a lot of people just ultimately don't want it. And I don't want to be in the business of giving people something that they don't want. 1:15:54 I respect their consent, the same as any reasonable person. 1:15:57 So it's kind of like there's all these people out there who either individually want it, but they're worried about what other people think. 1:16:04 So that leaves me in the position that I'm in where many, many people, including Adam Back and whatever, all these people at the LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends list, you can check all these people. 1:16:19 A lot of these people think like, well, at its core, this is a good idea or an idea worth trying, but yet it's not on BTC. 1:16:28 So then how to actually bring it into the world in a way that actually rewards all Bitcoiners by giving them free money. 1:16:37 And you can see that, of course, by doing this basically perfect idea in a perfect way, being selflessly giving everyone free money, that you can see where all the criticism comes from. 1:16:47 Yeah. Well, so one last stop on the whole thought process of like, if this, then that, of like, let's try to fix Bitcoin. 1:16:57 That didn't work. What next kind of thing? 1:16:59 Is how easily could Drivechains or something very similar to Drivechains be like a merge mined sidechain with Bitcoin bridge to it be created without having any, even a soft fork change to Bitcoin itself? 1:17:16 Like, is it possible? 1:17:17 But again, I've already done that because the CUSF BIP300 activator, this already would activate the soft fork without changing any lines of code in Bitcoin. 1:17:27 But it's kind of nonsensical. 1:17:28 51% of the hash rate. 1:17:29 Yeah, but it's kind of nonsensical to, because the way, because the idea of Drivechain is that they're merge mined L2s, like kind of governed by the mining process anyway. 1:17:40 So the idea that you wouldn't have, like, you know what I mean? 1:17:43 That would indicate that something else has gone wrong, like in the logic or people's understanding of it. 1:17:47 Like that would be really strange. 1:17:48 So even if it were possible, it would just be like kind of, it's like saying, could you drive a car if you didn't have to go anywhere and you would just be like, well, I don't know. 1:17:56 I'm sure you know you're, are you sure you know what you're trying to do? 1:17:59 So, so, yeah, I don't know. 1:18:01 I think it's more than just like activate this. 1:18:04 It's the whole culture. 1:18:05 It's just like people don't even want, I don't think, you know, it's just about what the culture wants. 1:18:11 So I think in various people have learned that at different times. 1:18:15 So the culture obviously has a lot wrong with it. 1:18:19 And that being said, there are like, I kind of feel like lightning had broad consensus appeal amongst remaining again after the Bitcoin cash split, at least. 1:18:30 The remainder of Bitcoin has had broad support for lightning to at least exist. 1:18:34 And therefore it existed. 1:18:36 Every other Bitcoin L2, I would not say that of. 1:18:39 And of course, you have things like root stock, you have stacks, whatever you call that. 1:18:43 And again, the definition, right? 1:18:44 Yeah, exactly. 1:18:45 Get weird. 1:18:46 So you have Citrea, which again, no one said anything. 1:18:49 No one like campaigned for it. 1:18:51 It just sort of like happened. 1:18:52 Then, of course, you have the eCash stuff or, you know, look at the cash. 1:18:57 I know you mean you're talking about that. 1:18:58 This is another thing that eCash is used for this weird custodial lightning. 1:19:01 Chowmian. 1:19:02 Yeah. 1:19:03 So you have all that or something called. 1:19:05 Was it wasn't light spark? 1:19:07 It was late something or other. 1:19:08 That's like a new hybrid L2. 1:19:11 That's like helps lightning. 1:19:13 Yeah, I think it's like a state. 1:19:14 Isn't that one of the state chain ideas? 1:19:17 Something like that. 1:19:18 I may be wrong about that. 1:19:19 But the point is all these things were launched as Bitcoin L2s or sidechains or whatever 1:19:24 without, I guess, direct consent of the protocol. 1:19:28 And so is there anything technically, again, forgive me for not being super into like the 1:19:34 sidechain nomics or the technicals of that, but is there anything preventing you from 1:19:39 launching Drivechains as a an L2 as a sidechain without having to actually modify the 1:19:47 Bitcoin core protocol at all, like without having to talk to a single miner, I guess? 1:19:51 Oh, well, that's different. 1:19:54 Again, because we don't have to modify the any lines of code, as I said, with the CUSF 1:20:00 activator. 1:20:01 But I don't know, because it's such a miner centric idea, the Drivechain that I don't 1:20:08 know if it like, I'm not sure what that would mean about without. 1:20:13 And again, I don't know, like if the culture doesn't want it, then how much, you know, 1:20:17 what are the transaction fees revenues going to be like? 1:20:20 What is the usage going to be? 1:20:22 You see what I mean? 1:20:23 Like, it's not the wrong. 1:20:24 It's like the wrong. 1:20:25 It's very confused. 1:20:26 It's like saying, could you open a grocery store in a town where everyone hated eating 1:20:29 food or something? 1:20:30 So if I were to distill that argument, it's kind of like saying, I want this for Bitcoin. 1:20:37 If Bitcoin as a whole doesn't want it, there won't be enough money in it if I force it 1:20:41 upon them anyway. 1:20:42 Yeah, it's not going to work. 1:20:43 We can't force people to do it. 1:20:44 So I might as well do something where I do have money to work on it. 1:20:47 Yeah, basically, yes. 1:20:49 And it'll be a good demo. 1:20:50 This will be a demonstration of what it does. 1:20:53 Yeah, it's going to be fun. 1:20:55 I heard rumor at one point about Drivechains on Litecoin, though. 1:20:59 Yeah, I'm still in favor of that. 1:21:01 I'm in favor of that, and I will help them do that. 1:21:04 But they had some weird stuff. 1:21:05 I'm not sure they totally understood why the CUSF activator is so much better. 1:21:09 And it's less work for them. 1:21:11 And all they have to do is run it next to Litecoin. 1:21:17 And all the stuff, all the L2s, which is most of the work, is on the L2s. 1:21:22 It's not really on BIP300. 1:21:23 It's not that complicated. 1:21:24 It's a little complicated, but it's not that complicated. 1:21:31 If they were to run the activator, then they would automatically have access to all of these L2s. 1:21:38 The question then is, are they going to run our wallet and are they going to run our front-end graphical user interface software? 1:21:46 How much of a revolution is it going to be? 1:21:49 And if it's not, then how are they going to cut and paste? 1:21:53 Are they going to take the graphical user interface elements that govern the sidechains? 1:22:00 Are they going to take those and paste them into their favorite Litecoin full node software? 1:22:07 I'm not sure exactly. 1:22:08 To what extent is it just a wholesale revolution, like the Paul Sztorc capture of Litecoin or something? 1:22:14 But it's all open source, and I'm sure with LLMs and stuff, they could splice all that stuff together, and it wouldn't be that hard. 1:22:21 I'm in favor of that. 1:22:22 At the time, they were saying, oh, we should activate it with BIP8 or something. 1:22:25 I was very confused by that, and I was like, I don't think they really understand. 1:22:28 But I still think that's a good idea. 1:22:30 I still think we should do it on Litecoin. 1:22:33 I still think we should do it on Testnet 4 even. 1:22:36 But I'm just not sure what the appetite is or what the understanding is. 1:22:41 You can see how low the levels of understanding are. 1:22:45 If people don't understand division, then they're useless people, not as people per se. 1:22:52 But it's kind of like they just don't understand it. 1:22:56 They're useless as people. 1:22:57 They're usually not be a person. 1:22:58 Yeah. 1:22:59 They're not useless qua people, but they're useless in the context of the conversation about what we should be doing. 1:23:06 It's kind of just like, well, what are we? 1:23:10 So that's the thing. 1:23:11 It's just kind of confusing. 1:23:13 And then, yeah, so the premise is like all these people are like, oh, I want to support a Drivechain except for whatever. 1:23:18 So it's just coins or except for a hard fork or something like that. 1:23:21 And then these people say, oh, this is a hard fork. 1:23:24 They say the reason the hard fork is bad is because you're tricking the Bitcoin community into getting involved. 1:23:30 It's like I'm giving every single Bitcoin owner the coins. 1:23:34 I mean, it's not really a trick. 1:23:35 It's like it's kind of the real thing in a way. 1:23:38 So, you know, there's some people that you can't please. 1:23:41 Usually I'm like 10, 15 years ahead. 1:23:43 I mean, I was really 10, 15 years ahead on the prediction markets topic. 1:23:48 And so I'm very much ahead of the game. 1:23:51 And usually I do things that I know will be unpopular just because of the way they're perceived. 1:23:57 And that's not my responsibility. 1:23:59 That's other people's, you know, foolishness and being right. 1:24:03 But I'm certainly willing to put up with it to some extent. 1:24:07 But, yeah, so I don't know. 1:24:09 Do we have any. 1:24:11 Well, yeah, that's. 1:24:13 I wanted to correct one other thing you said about a lot of the L2s activate without any assistance from. 1:24:21 From Bitcoin, but that's not true of the Lightning Network. 1:24:24 Lightning Network, of course, had SegWit, which you asked for, and it derailed. 1:24:29 It derailed everything for years. 1:24:31 And as a result, lightning is the opposite of Drivechain in which it has broad cultural support. 1:24:38 But this has been a total disaster, and this is probably will be what will kill the Bitcoin project is people's faith in lightning. 1:24:45 Since it basically doesn't work and people are determined, they become more deranged. 1:24:50 The more they get involved with it, they become determined to lie about it. 1:24:55 So unfortunately, the cultural support is a double edged sword. 1:24:59 If you have too much of it, it becomes just a weird cult. 1:25:02 And then if you have not enough, then you can't get anything done with that group of people. 1:25:07 Yeah, that makes sense. 1:25:09 So when you have. 1:25:13 Now that we have this, we have this sort of like Bitcoin has been slowly imploding on itself over very slowly, I would say, over the last decade. 1:25:23 But it's still kind of like the culture is ossifying. 1:25:26 People are the inmates are restless, all this kind of stuff. 1:25:29 And now I interviewed Peter Eisen of Bitcoin Unlimited on a scaling research and stuff. 1:25:40 He's also involved with the NEXA project. 1:25:42 And as far as I'm aware, NEXA, I don't think it's like a fork of Bitcoin cash, but it's a it's a new crypto that is similar to Bitcoin cash with like more VM stuff. 1:25:53 And like whatever the rest, the reasoning for that is, well, when we split off with Bitcoin cash, with Bitcoin core, we kept things like exactly the same other than we modify the block size and then some other stuff. 1:26:08 But like if we don't have to try to be Bitcoin, then we're sort of free to do more different things, right, to change more things that are that would be a smart decision. 1:26:19 But then, you know, we just couldn't get going on Bitcoin. 1:26:22 Or if we did that on Bitcoin cash, it wouldn't be Bitcoin cash. 1:26:25 It wouldn't be a Bitcoin anymore or whatever. 1:26:28 And so a lot, to my mind, at least, a lot of the Drivechain design seems to... 1:26:36 I've always said that the Drivechain seemed to be the most elegant solution for Bitcoin in that it pleased all sides. 1:26:45 It kept things exactly the same, basically. 1:26:47 And it kept the small block vision, run your own node, kept the big block vision. 1:26:52 It gave everyone what they wanted in a Bitcoin context. 1:26:55 Now that we're out of a Bitcoin context, why does this model make sense? 1:27:00 Like why wouldn't you just have a bunch of different chains that you don't have a small block kind of base chain? 1:27:09 You just only have like the ZK chain and the other chain and all those ones together. 1:27:14 Like why is this exact design the way it is kind of make sense for what is now a non-Bitcoin cryptocurrency? 1:27:23 Well, when you, I mean, you have to have an L1. 1:27:26 So you have to have L1 node software. 1:27:29 So the question is, is that it's either going to be exactly the same as Bitcoin or it's not going to be that. 1:27:34 And every change, I think, you know, the Bitcoin core full node, I think, is an extremely battle tested piece of software. 1:27:43 People have been trying to hack it, et cetera, for years. 1:27:47 And so I think you'd be crazy to turn that down. 1:27:51 And you just say, if you didn't have to, like, why rewrite it all from scratch? 1:27:55 Because every change you make is, first of all, something you're going to have to write. 1:27:58 You have to come up with. You're going to have to test it yourself. 1:28:01 You're going to have to maintain it. 1:28:05 And then you're going to have to not only that, even if it's a good change. 1:28:08 Now you have to explain it to other people who will then have to justify it to other people. 1:28:14 And they're going to have to explain it and justify it to other people also. 1:28:17 So you have this enormous problem for each change. 1:28:20 And, of course, in software, like one single line of code or something could be like the key logger or could be like crashing the software or something. 1:28:29 So I think whatever you do, you have to have L1 node software. 1:28:35 And so I think you might as well just take what is the most widely adopted full node software for use in cryptocurrency block validation. 1:28:48 So that's why I think the L1 should be the L1. 1:28:51 For a lot of the L2s, like a lot of them, we wrote from scratch. 1:28:55 You will be back porting as things go along. 1:28:58 Right, including all the mistakes. 1:29:00 I think that Bitcoin Core has made many mistakes and still is. 1:29:03 But we'll just keep keeping that because the idea is if you like Bitcoin Core, then you can come over here and you'll still have that. 1:29:11 So the idea is still trying to please everyone. 1:29:16 Yeah, you can see, of course, it's not going to work. 1:29:18 But I think it shines a light on who are the people who are not pleased by this. 1:29:23 I think it shows that they have weird, unmeetable standards or that they just don't know. 1:29:28 Or they get their information from some weird echo chamber that is not truth oriented. 1:29:38 And so I think it's only a matter of time before a community like that collapses one way or another. 1:29:45 So we might as well shine a light on it while we still can and figure out, okay, who's unhappy about this and why? 1:29:56 Who's unhappy about you getting free money as a Bitcoiner? 1:30:00 What are they going to lose? 1:30:02 How humiliating is it going to be for them if this idea succeeds? 1:30:10 Yeah, of course. 1:30:11 Now, so we've kind of gone through the logical progression of not only what is this, but why we couldn't put it in Bitcoin through a bunch of different avenues. 1:30:21 And why does it look the way it is right now? 1:30:23 Like, that makes sense now. 1:30:24 So now you kind of hinted at some endgame type things. 1:30:28 But like, how do you expect this to go now? 1:30:30 So the fork launches, some people get their coins. 1:30:33 You get Satoshi's coin, some of them. 1:30:35 People get outraged for reasons we've already covered. 1:30:39 Whatever. 1:30:40 Things chug on. 1:30:41 There are some Drivechains that are launched now and people start doing things. 1:30:45 First, what are the first Drivechains? 1:30:47 I'm sure you must have a couple that are going to be ready to launch almost like at launch, right? 1:30:51 Right. 1:30:52 Yeah, the starter pack, so to speak. 1:30:54 I think the bread and butter would be scaling and privacy. 1:30:58 So there's one I call Thunder, which is kind of a lightning joke. 1:31:02 And there's another one I call Zside. 1:31:05 I use the same orchard crate as Zcash, the old coin. 1:31:09 Yeah. 1:31:11 Was there ever a thought? 1:31:13 So here's the thing. 1:31:15 Let's say you have like a million Drivechains, right? 1:31:17 You could have like a fast one. 1:31:18 You could have the private one. 1:31:20 You could have whatever. 1:31:23 What thought has been given to combining a couple of those use cases to have fewer Drivechains? 1:31:28 So, for example, why couldn't you have Crypto be Zthunder, for example? 1:31:34 Like both of those together sort of thing. 1:31:36 It's a very good question. 1:31:38 And I think it's an open... 1:31:41 I don't know if people will prefer... 1:31:43 Because you get some advantages when you say, we're going to have the full node do a bunch of stuff. 1:31:49 Like calculate a bunch of state or track some different sets of things. 1:31:54 So you have some advantage by making them special purpose where you say, like, this is the identity sidechain. 1:32:05 This is the assets sidechain. 1:32:07 This is the privacy sidechain. 1:32:09 So you gain some technical edge by doing that. 1:32:13 But at the same time, it might just be that people disagree over how much... 1:32:19 Basically the block size, like what the full node resource requirements should be. 1:32:24 So maybe some people only want to pay a little bit to store a small blockchain. 1:32:28 Other people are willing to pay more. 1:32:30 And a smaller number of people are willing to pay a huge amount. 1:32:33 And maybe they'll just divide that way. 1:32:36 I don't know. 1:32:38 But I just kind of... 1:32:39 Like it's just a little bit easier to just ship them this way and kind of give them each a little bit of a branded type of thing. 1:32:47 Yeah. 1:32:48 So now, from what I remember from the last... 1:32:52 I mean, I guess you could probably reiterate in case people didn't watch the last show. 1:32:55 I don't assume everyone watching has watched everything. 1:32:58 But the way you get from the main chain, right? 1:33:01 From the main Bitcoin core, whatever thing. 1:33:04 The bridging process does take a certain amount of blocks, et cetera. 1:33:08 Going in is instant. 1:33:09 Going back is very slow. 1:33:12 And so how many blocks does that take? 1:33:15 So to come back, it's extremely slow. 1:33:17 But the idea is that most people would not use that. 1:33:19 But it is three to six months. 1:33:21 But 6,000 people can ride back at once. 1:33:23 And the idea is that instead, you would just use the HTLCs to swap in and out instantly. 1:33:28 And people would compete and pay a fee for that. 1:33:32 But the reason is because if there's a high number of these chains, you always want there to be plenty of time for the dispute to be raised. 1:33:40 And so there's basically this hash on the withdrawal transaction that matches what's reported by the full node software. 1:33:48 And so you have basically a really long time to notice if one hash doesn't match another hash. 1:33:52 If it doesn't match, then that means that someone is doing something intentionally wrong. 1:33:57 So the idea is it's a deterrent because it kind of establishes guilt very, very, very quickly. 1:34:03 And you're very, very, very unlikely to get away with it. 1:34:08 This slow return, my guess is that it will never impact people. 1:34:14 But nonetheless, we have to have some way of returning. 1:34:17 But, yeah, the idea is that there would be like sort of specialists. 1:34:20 It's kind of like how if you go to the airport, you swap your U.S. dollars for euros or something at the little thing. 1:34:28 And you usually never have to – like at some point, those people will net up. 1:34:32 They may accumulate like maybe more whatever yen than they need and then they'll have to ship them in like a big box or something. 1:34:39 But most people just pay a fee and they can just swap it at the counter. 1:34:44 Yeah, so get built into some sort of a dex for easy swapping. 1:34:47 Exactly. 1:34:48 Where that runs into limits, what I'd imagine is just total liquidity in each Drivechain. 1:34:54 So let's just say like the fast one is like the popular one. 1:34:59 And let's just say you start with 20 million coins. 1:35:01 Just assume you have 20 million users or 20 million coins are being actively used, which, again, big assumptions. 1:35:07 We'll forget about that. 1:35:08 And let's just say like 18 million goes right into the fast one, the thunder channel. 1:35:14 And so people are doing that. 1:35:16 But then there's a big surveillance event and they're like, oh, crap, we want privacy. 1:35:20 Two million goes into the Z chain. 1:35:24 But then there's tons of demand for it and more than can satisfy people swapping up because there can only be two million in that chain. 1:35:32 And so then you'd have to de-bridge. 1:35:35 That's right. 1:35:36 That would be slow. 1:35:37 And then it would be instant to go back, but it would be slow to de-bridge. 1:35:41 That's an interesting scenario. 1:35:42 But I think for a couple of reasons, it's not. 1:35:44 It's a very interesting theoretical scenario. 1:35:46 But I would imagine that people would probably be most comfortable saving in the long run on the L1. 1:35:54 So they kind of keep their retirement savings on the L1. 1:35:57 And the other thing is just because a chain is very popular in turning over like spending, that doesn't mean that you need to have a very high quantity of coins there. 1:36:08 So I think I did some napkin math on my blog. 1:36:12 And, you know, with something like 5,000 to 10,000 coins, you could have like a North America chain that has very large blocks, like gigabyte sized blocks. 1:36:24 There's huge amounts of turnover in the thing where you're paying for all of your stuff. 1:36:29 They're paying their suppliers somewhere. 1:36:31 Your boss is getting paid. 1:36:32 Your boss pays you. 1:36:35 You could have huge amounts of turnover with small, not that many coins actually on the chain as a whole. 1:36:43 So I don't know exactly, you know, if that napkin math will hold up in practice. 1:36:49 But I think it's at least theoretically possible that you would only need to have like, you know, you could only have like a million coins kind of out there among the L2s. 1:36:59 And there could be 20 million on the L1. 1:37:01 And you would still have a lot of – so I think that people would be hesitant to go out and keep their coins. 1:37:07 The L2s would be more of something like, you know, the pocket money or like the checking account. 1:37:14 And then coming back, the L1 would be more like the 401K or something like a retirement account to use like a kind of weird metaphor like that. 1:37:25 So I don't think that that scenario would come up, although it might. 1:37:29 It's an interesting one. 1:37:30 But I think that even if you want privacy, let's say you're on the privacy chain and you're a huge privacy enthusiast. 1:37:37 If you've used the privacy chain a lot, now that you're coming out of it, you're coming out of the shielded pool like they – the ominous they. 1:37:47 They probably don't know who that is, so you're probably good on that UTXO. 1:37:52 You just put it on – park it on L1. 1:37:54 They know it came out of the seaside shielded pool, but they don't know who it is. 1:37:59 So that's not so bad. 1:38:03 So what's in terms of like if I needed to – let's just say one Drivechain became way more popular than the other, and there needed to be more liquidity on one than the other. 1:38:15 What's the latency that it would take for me to get from one to the other as far as – let's say you're a swap. 1:38:22 Like you're a swap provider. 1:38:24 You're helping people to just swap one version for the other, but then you're massively running out of liquidity on one of these, and you're like, we need more in this system. 1:38:33 So we need to take some Bitcoin and load it and de-bridge it from this one and then bridge it back to this one to balance out the liquidity more. 1:38:43 What's the – how long would that take in terms of like time, like hours, days, whatever? 1:38:48 No, I think that would be – my guess is that that would be instant, but of course the de-bridge is the three to six months. 1:38:53 But again, this is what I'm trying to say is there's probably going to be a reserve of coins on L1 even if they're not yours. 1:38:59 So if you're this kind of person, you can work out this triangle trade where – because the L1 coins can go instantly in like one block. 1:39:10 But there's one on-chain transaction. 1:39:12 The L1 coins can go to the L2 like immediately. 1:39:21 And so whichever chain is running short, you can be like – you can say, listen, I don't – can I buy your L1 coins from you or can I – from anyone? 1:39:30 So basically anyone can move them from L1 to L2 and then take the swap or take the swap first and then move them from L1 to L2. 1:39:39 So that part, that half of it is very easy. 1:39:42 And that half of it is very easy and then you would not – so like if you're saying there's a really high demand on one side and there's not as much of a demand. 1:39:53 You can't as easily bring them from L2 to L1, but you have to push them from L1 to L2 very easily. 1:40:00 So you'd be able to cook up some kind of like triangle trade, the HTLC thing. 1:40:03 So you should be able to do it. 1:40:05 Almost instantaneously, like within like an hour. So that part, that's why I'm not worried about the 36-month part. I don't think it really ever catches – 1:40:33 Exactly. And it could even be – it's unclear, but I think one possibility is since the L1 miners are participants in the deposit withdrawal cycle, 1:40:59 it's possible that these large pools, they would have this as another revenue stream where they operate the big coin moving thing. 1:41:06 So they're the ones who say – because they're earning all these coins on all the chains because they're mining and they're earning all these coins on L1. 1:41:13 They can say, okay, listen, we'll give everyone – for a small fee, we'll give everyone on the new Z side Thunder super chain. We're giving you all these coins. 1:41:23 And then meanwhile, we want 102 coins on this, the defunct one for every 100 coins. They take this 2% fee or whatever it is. 1:41:35 They all then own them there and then they can walk them back very safely knowing that to them. If you're a large miner, the coins on the L2 are the same as the L1 coins. 1:41:44 Other people, there's maybe some fear that the Drivechain thing will break down. I don't think so. 1:41:52 But yeah, it does seem like there's value to keep dry powder as it were or just unbridged coins. 1:42:00 And it also seems like there will be a pretty big business as far as the arbitrage – the arbitraging, the money changers as it were. 1:42:11 The change of this coin for this coin or lend someone some capacity on this chain or on this one in order if someone runs into a time crunch. 1:42:19 So it seems like at least there's a strong business case there for people who want to do that. 1:42:25 Now, as far as the end-user experience and the wallets and stuff, do you foresee any – I don't know. 1:42:32 How's the experience going to look like for like if I want to have the master eCash wallet? I just want like whatever. 1:42:40 It's probably got to sync a few different full nodes, right? It's got to sync with the eCash core one like the big one and a few of these Drivechains. 1:42:49 You don't sync any – you kind of choose which L2s you want. 1:42:55 If you're not on them, then you don't have to sync them if you don't go there. 1:43:00 Those are like plug-ins or something. 1:43:02 So like you probably have a collection of coins in your wallet. 1:43:07 They're all the same base currency, but they're technically different coins at different sidechains, right? 1:43:11 So you'd have like your private one and your cash one, and then maybe you'd have your EVM style. 1:43:18 Again, maybe not EVM, but they're smart contract-y ones. 1:43:21 So you can get some mad DeFi gains staking it over here and then maybe a couple others. 1:43:27 So you might have like five of the same coin or three of the same coin, but on different things. 1:43:32 And I guess they'd be shown as different pockets sort of, even though they'd all be seen as the same asset. 1:43:38 You'd probably have a unified balance of all of them, as far as the user experience is concerned. 1:43:45 But then they would technically be in different pockets, right? 1:43:49 Right, and the wallet would want to say – because they're not quite the same. 1:43:54 Even though they exchange at a one-to-one value in BIP300. 1:43:58 If you have chains on a certain L2, they're kind of over there and they're not on. 1:44:02 If someone says, oh, can you pay me on this L2? 1:44:04 If you don't have the coins there, then without some other step, it won't work. 1:44:11 So you have to pay them wherever they are. 1:44:13 That's why I kind of think there'll be like a North America payments chain, like a Europe payments chain, like a Southeast Asia. 1:44:19 There'll be like some geographically distributed would be my guess about how it would work if it reached planetary scale. 1:44:26 And so, yeah, you would have to swap. 1:44:29 If you were going to get on a plane, you wouldn't have to go to the currency counter, 1:44:35 but you would have to make one of these transactions where you either go from L1 to the Asia L2, 1:44:46 or you do the swap so that you can pay people over there. 1:44:50 Yeah, so now let's talk about long-term vision as far as how this could play out. 1:44:55 So you launch, people get some, they start playing around, then what? 1:45:00 I think you mentioned a couple of percentage chances of either this happens or that happens. 1:45:05 What are kind of the long-term outcomes you can kind of foresee of this? 1:45:11 Well, yeah, there are a lot of outcomes. 1:45:14 One is maybe people aren't that interested in this. 1:45:17 That would be itself pretty interesting to like figure out like that's just where people's appetite is and what the demand is. 1:45:27 It's also possible technology might not work. 1:45:30 I think that it does or that if it breaks, it can be easily leveled up into something that does work. 1:45:37 But one possibility is that, I mean, I think the two interesting possibilities are that this technology succeeds really well, 1:45:44 and then people in BTC just decide, oh, like this actually is a good idea. 1:45:49 Why aren't we doing this? 1:45:51 And then they flip, and then, of course, all these people will say that they were all the same people today who are big haters. 1:45:55 They'll say that they were always in favor of this idea and that they always liked it. 1:46:00 I just like they were always against COVID lockdowns and what's ever. 1:46:05 So, of course. 1:46:07 And so we'll have that's one possibility. 1:46:09 Another possibility is that each of these L2s on eCash gains users and starts achieving its own network effect. 1:46:20 And then a key property of this idea is that all the L2s are merge mined. 1:46:25 And so there would be this geometric increase in transaction fee revenue, which means it would be a geometric increase in hashing power. 1:46:37 And that would make this chain have a larger and larger percentage of the SHA256D mining hash rate. 1:46:48 And I think that would be great because, in a way, that would mean that its success would automatically prevent the BTC network from finding blocks. 1:46:57 So, in that way, they are very rivalrous. 1:47:00 Yeah. 1:47:02 So, is there any, like, is this it for the BTC chain? 1:47:07 I don't know. 1:47:09 I'm not sure. 1:47:10 I'm not sure. 1:47:11 I think there's very little you can do to come back when you lose the culture of truth. 1:47:17 I think it's very hard to come back from that because people will self-censor. 1:47:23 And it's like there's a whole parallel world where I think when everything's going well, like everything is self-healing. 1:47:34 So, like, if your society is getting very healthy and people, now you have wealthier merchants and they can afford books and they can afford to patronize the arts and the arts inspire people and the culture improves. 1:47:49 So, I think everything goes well at once. 1:47:51 Like, places have like a golden age. 1:47:53 And then I think it's the reverse also, like when things start to go badly. 1:47:56 Like, now, how would someone be treated if they criticized the Lightning Network? 1:48:00 In BTC, never before has it been easier to criticize the Lightning Network because so much has been done and it's so obviously, like, the problems are more obvious. 1:48:10 And yet, culturally, it's still very hard. 1:48:14 And the critics are treated as like weird fringe people instead of just like people saying obvious things like you can't onboard 8 billion people to the Lightning Network like under any circumstances. 1:48:25 And like no one is going to put up with these weird liquidity problems. 1:48:30 And actually, it's at this point much more difficult to run a Lightning Node for a regular person than it would be for them to run even like a large block. 1:48:39 I mean, even like a Bitcoin SV node would be easier for the regular person. 1:48:44 And that's very telling. 1:48:46 Yeah, having run a Lightning Node. 1:48:48 Yeah, a regular person just running Bitcoin SV node would just click a button and they'd say you need a lot of hard drive space. 1:48:55 They'd say, okay, and they'd buy a hard drive and plug it in. 1:48:58 And wait. 1:49:00 But most people find it very, people who've actually tried to run the Lightning Node, normal people will give up. 1:49:05 So in practice, it's actually harder to run the Lightning Node. 1:49:08 So like, but that's just one example among many. 1:49:12 So I don't know. 1:49:15 But I think it's a good – this is the point is like, so maybe I'm wrong about all this and we don't need eCash and everything will be fine with BTC. 1:49:23 In which case, that's great because you've got your BTC shirt. 1:49:28 And I'm not telling anyone to sell their BTC. 1:49:32 I'm just saying we need this hedge. 1:49:34 We need this lifeboat. 1:49:35 We need this lifeboat leaving the – most of the time when you build a cruise ship, you don't need the lifeboats. 1:49:42 So I kind of hope that we don't need this lifeboat. 1:49:45 I'm just personally getting a little nervous. 1:49:49 I mean a lot of the things that people are saying and doing don't make any sense at all. 1:49:53 And you know what I'm talking about. 1:49:56 So I think it's difficult when you lose the culture of truth. 1:50:00 And if you have a culture of truth, you can almost defeat anything eventually. 1:50:05 But if you lose the culture of truth, I think it's only a matter of time before. 1:50:09 So I don't know. 1:50:12 I'm honestly not sure. 1:50:14 But it's been incredible to have made so much – I mean again, I know people who paid 10 cents for Bitcoin and then sold it for $100,000. 1:50:24 So I know people who did a million X in Bitcoin. 1:50:27 And so I mean that's a huge win. 1:50:31 That's as good as life gets. 1:50:35 It's hard to complain after pulling something like that off. 1:50:38 And now you have these people who – they heard about Bitcoin after 2020 or something and they're kind of like – 1:50:44 this is like – it reminds me of – you remember the Mad Max movie where he's giving the water to the people? 1:50:49 And they're destitute and they have no – and he's like – and he opens the thing and he says, 1:50:52 too much water will make you soft. 1:50:56 He shuts the water off. 1:50:59 So that's like the new people now. 1:51:03 And of course these new people don't know anything. 1:51:05 Like why can't we do a soft fork? 1:51:09 Because soft fork isn't a change to the protocol. 1:51:12 It's often ignorable and reversible. 1:51:14 You can still run the old version if you want. 1:51:17 So why is it treated differently than any other software change? 1:51:20 I don't know. 1:51:23 I'm not sure. 1:51:25 I don't know. 1:51:27 I think this – definitely there are warning signs. 1:51:30 So that's what people really don't like about this project is it shines some light on the shortcomings of BTC. 1:51:38 And that's why they don't like it. 1:51:40 And that's why I think though that will guarantee that people will continue to talk about it. 1:51:44 Because they can't resist, you know, like whatever, the two bullets hate or whatever you want to call it. 1:51:51 Well, I have to say it is very interesting because I've been thinking about like forks, proper forks of Bitcoin. 1:51:58 And as far as I know, the only meaningful fork, if you could call it, might have been Bitcoin Cash in 2017. 1:52:08 And of course you had Bitcoin Gold which persisted way longer than I thought it would. 1:52:14 But that was – I kind of feel like Bitcoin Gold was understood to be like a shit fork. 1:52:19 Like it was not – you know. 1:52:21 Right. 1:52:22 These were frivolities and that was just like people discovered forking and they just thought, well, how many of these can we make and this will be fun. 1:52:28 And maybe some of them were even intended to discredit Bitcoin Cash by trying to lump them into like a weird category. 1:52:34 Yes. And so Bitcoin Cash, of course, is split off into SV and then also eCash. 1:52:39 It would be hilarious if one of those split. 1:52:42 I mean, I would not rule out Bitcoin SV forking into another SV. 1:52:47 Yeah, me either. Right. 1:52:49 That's a funny thing to think about. 1:52:51 But the point is Bitcoin Cash really shook Bitcoin, I would say, at the time. 1:52:56 It was a monumental change. 1:52:57 And I think for a variety of reasons, I think Bitcoin Cash did not short term work out. 1:53:03 I think they reinvigorated and they're back in close to the top 10 or whatever. 1:53:08 They're still there. 1:53:10 But this has been like nine years since a Bitcoin fork like that, like a real one. 1:53:16 And I get that this is probably much less – I wouldn't say less. 1:53:20 I don't want to be disrespectful by saying less real than the Bitcoin Cash one was. 1:53:23 But that was more like this super important battle going on right then. 1:53:29 Half of it went this way, half went that way, sort of. 1:53:32 Or 90% went this way, 10% went this way, whatever. 1:53:35 In this case, it might not be as significant because, as you sort of pointed out, 1:53:40 the support for Drivechain has been not where it probably should have been. 1:53:44 But it still is a fork. 1:53:46 It still shows that there is a division. 1:53:48 Now, what do you think are the chances also? 1:53:51 Speaking of fun things, that there's a BIP 110 fork around the same time? 1:53:59 Yeah, it's a funny question. 1:54:01 I honestly thought – well, first of all, I'd agree that one thing that Bitcoin Cash had going for it 1:54:07 was that there were already these huge, these two really passionate communities 1:54:12 that have been disagreeing for like seven years. 1:54:14 But yeah, I think that was also part of its downfall in a way. 1:54:17 It was kind of like – well, it's tough. 1:54:22 You need passion and you need a lot of stuff and it's really hard. 1:54:25 It's funny also that we say Bitcoin Cash is a failure because it briefly made it to the number two spot 1:54:33 on the coin market cap and then it was like it's still worth billions of dollars today. 1:54:39 It's kind of just a bizarre thing. 1:54:40 But yeah, I was thinking about that too. 1:54:43 I care so little about the op return, 1:54:52 like the idea of caring about what kind of op returns are in the standardness limit. 1:55:00 I think that's so ridiculous. 1:55:02 It just doesn't even appear on my radar and I've been ignoring it 1:55:06 because I just really don't care either way. 1:55:09 Nonetheless, Luke has made – it's funny that people of course criticize this, 1:55:14 but Luke has – I think he's made comments to the effect that say that if his soft fork doesn't activate, 1:55:21 he will just proceed even – he'll just like basically turn it into a hard fork and say, 1:55:25 it doesn't matter how many miners run this, like this is the chain. 1:55:30 I don't know if I have to lower the difficulty or how that will work. 1:55:33 Yeah, that's the thing. 1:55:35 I mean that's one reason I called it the caveman war is to my mind and nothing of it made sense. 1:55:41 Like it just seemed like not the sharpest tacks in the room kind of doing something like that. 1:55:45 But yeah, I mean it is what it is. 1:55:49 Now, so the last kind of I guess question on this thing, 1:55:56 of course if anyone has any questions in the comments, 1:55:59 one, someone did have a question in the comments, 1:56:03 which was about are you supporting the pump.fund token called eCash that's launching. 1:56:08 Someone's trying to scam. 1:56:10 So ignore it. 1:56:12 Not right now, but I don't know. 1:56:14 Maybe I could work out some kind of weird deal with them somehow. 1:56:16 I'm not sure. 1:56:18 But I don't have anything to do with that as of now, 1:56:20 and everyone should carefully watch me on X slash Twitter, 1:56:25 which is Truthcoin, and they should go to the eCash.com site. 1:56:30 Because of course, yeah, people have already been like, 1:56:33 people make like a fake GitHub for me. 1:56:36 So it's really rough out there. 1:56:39 People will be trying to trick you. 1:56:42 It sucks, and I'm not Truthcoin on Telegram. 1:56:45 I'm only Truthcoin on Twitter. 1:56:47 I'm Pstorz on Telegram. 1:56:49 Yeah, so I guess like sort of the final big question honestly, 1:56:52 barring any other questions that come in from the community, 1:56:56 is so like the big Truthcoin thing is, 1:57:02 I mean the big Drivechain thing is it's like the alt killer, 1:57:07 the shitcoin killer, right? 1:57:09 Where it's like it obsoletes a lot of use cases. 1:57:12 Now that makes a lot of sense coming from you tack that onto Bitcoin, right? 1:57:17 Because now you have all these use cases attached to the Bitcoin store of value 1:57:22 the Bitcoin unitive account, the branding, all those other stuff. 1:57:26 But now that you're kind of shedding a lot of that, 1:57:29 how do you think that this new eCash is going to compete with just 1:57:34 the whole down the coin market cap ranking, 1:57:37 like all those projects that have, you know, maybe years in the business, 1:57:41 have integrations in this, have brand recognition, 1:57:44 have DEX integrations, whatever else. 1:57:46 How do you think that that practically works out? 1:57:49 Like how do you fight your way through the masses of these other coins? 1:57:52 Yeah, absolutely. It's very, 1:57:54 this is why a lot of people like to stay in the Bitcoin world 1:57:57 and even identify with it, even if they only own like, 1:57:59 they own like $25 worth of Bitcoin. 1:58:01 They say, well, I'm in the Bitcoin group and I'm a whatever. 1:58:04 And so that's a, that's a big advantage. 1:58:06 I'm a huge believer in network effects. 1:58:08 I think it's much easier for the bigger coins. 1:58:10 I think it's much easier for the more established coins. 1:58:13 So yeah, I think it, I think it will be difficult, 1:58:15 but I think all of the other projects like, 1:58:20 well, you know, I can't speak for literally every single one of them, 1:58:25 but the idea of Drivechain is that you could get different, 1:58:30 like full node software, all with the same currency unit. 1:58:34 So I'm kind of saying like, it's a good thing that 1:58:37 there's all these different, these different, like, 1:58:41 it's a good thing that there's a Zcash. 1:58:42 It's a good thing that there's an Ethereum. 1:58:45 It's a good thing that there is a Bitcoin cash. 1:58:48 And, you know, of course, 1:58:53 all of them are going to try to be moved down the stack. 1:58:56 Like, so when Ethereum came out, it was kind of like, 1:58:58 this is Ethereum plus, it's just like Bitcoin plus smart contracts. 1:59:02 So it was kind of like, oh, you can send money to people, 1:59:04 but also you can do all this other stuff. 1:59:06 I think I'm attempting a version of that where I'm saying like, 1:59:08 okay, like literally the L1 is the number one altcoin. 1:59:12 And then I have all the L2s are just, they are this other technology. 1:59:16 Those will have network effects to overcome. 1:59:20 But I think ours would have a unique ability 1:59:25 to increase in network effect over time. 1:59:29 Because this is what happens is like, okay, 1:59:32 so like you had Bitcoin and then Bitcoin cash split off. 1:59:34 And then you had a debate between Omri and Craig. 1:59:41 And then Bitcoin SV split off. 1:59:44 So in the blockchain paradigm, 1:59:47 you don't have this splitting off thing. 1:59:49 And I think they're bound to be controversies. 1:59:51 I think that's inevitable. 1:59:53 So I think this is a decent way of, 1:59:55 excuse me, 1:59:57 a decent way of dealing with these controversies. 2:00:01 Oh my God, I need some water. 2:00:04 Yeah, you've been going on for a long time. 2:00:06 But I think it's, 2:00:10 sorry. 2:00:12 It's like, it's a decent, yeah. 2:00:14 They're that fast. 2:00:16 I got you. 2:00:19 So like you reach like a kind of a problem 2:00:23 where the community grows to a certain size. 2:00:25 People disagree over exactly what you should do. 2:00:28 This type of thing happens routinely. 2:00:30 So I think we're going to do like an RFK in junior. 2:00:34 That'd be terrible. 2:00:36 I'm watching eCash in a few minutes. 2:00:39 Yeah. 2:00:41 So, 2:00:43 so I think that that's, that's kind of, 2:00:45 it will be difficult though to, you know, 2:00:47 obviously it's very difficult to compete. 2:00:49 I think when you, 2:00:51 the example of Bitcoin cash is like, 2:00:53 you had all these altcoins in 2017. 2:00:57 And yet it was actually a hard fork 2:01:00 to get very quickly to the number two space. 2:01:03 And it was then, you know, 2:01:05 I published graphs in the past about 2:01:07 how successful was Bitcoin cash 2:01:10 compared to like Solana or Avalanche or whatever. 2:01:13 And you can say as a percentage of the top two, 2:01:18 so you could say Bitcoin, Ethereum and X. 2:01:23 You do this graph where you say, 2:01:25 what were the market caps? 2:01:27 So you say, how close was it to breaking in the top two? 2:01:28 And you can then do this. 2:01:30 You repeat this graph for, 2:01:34 for like Solana, Bitcoin cash, whatever. 2:01:37 And then the, 2:01:39 you could see that actually Bitcoin cash did much better. 2:01:41 You know, it only had like a year of life 2:01:43 before it started to fall, 2:01:45 but it did much better than the altcoin. 2:01:47 So I actually think I agree with you 2:01:49 that really Bitcoin cash was the only real fork. 2:01:51 A lot of the other ones were kind of like designed to fail. 2:01:54 Yeah. 2:01:56 And a lot of the other ones were designed 2:01:58 to fail. 2:02:00 So the only time we did a Bitcoin hard fork, 2:02:02 it skyrocketed to the number two place. 2:02:05 And I think actually there were a lot of problems 2:02:07 with the Bitcoin cash hard fork. 2:02:09 So they had tremendous community support. 2:02:12 Yes. 2:02:14 But it was created in August. 2:02:16 And then in November they kind of told everyone 2:02:18 this is why SegWit2x was still going on. 2:02:20 And then they kind of canceled SegWit2x 2:02:22 and said, this is the new large blocker project 2:02:25 after it had already been out for months 2:02:26 and people had maybe sold already. 2:02:29 So I'm kind of warning people in advance 2:02:31 whereas they kind of was like already been out 2:02:33 and it was like already been out 2:02:35 and it was not the official. 2:02:37 There were like tweets and stuff. 2:02:39 People are talking about, oh, is SegWit2x 2:02:41 still the large blocker project? 2:02:43 People forget that people like Roger Ver 2:02:45 were not supporters in the early days. 2:02:48 Right. 2:02:50 I have it as one of the times on this channel 2:02:52 when Roger appeared. 2:02:54 He's literally talking about it. 2:02:56 It was a big block version. 2:02:58 You know, I wish them well, 2:03:00 but like it's very sad what's happened. 2:03:02 Like he just was not very into it 2:03:04 or familiar at all at the time. 2:03:06 Again, on this channel. 2:03:08 And then it took a while to get on board. 2:03:10 Right. 2:03:11 It wasn't until November. 2:03:13 Yeah. 2:03:15 The SegWit2x thing was, 2:03:17 as any big blocker remembers, I guess, 2:03:19 was a little bit of a bait and switch 2:03:21 where the SegWit signaling 2:03:23 was like 30, 40 percent in minors. 2:03:24 And then after SegWit2x, 2:03:26 it went up to 90 and got implemented. 2:03:28 But then the 2X part never happened. 2:03:31 It kind of got rugged afterwards. 2:03:33 And I noticed the UASF 2:03:35 and all that other stuff that came about 2:03:37 did not intensify until SegWit got activated. 2:03:40 It was a little, it was very kind of deliberate. 2:03:42 So understandably, it took some wind 2:03:44 out of the sails. 2:03:46 Also, people had never dealt with a fork before. 2:03:48 Exchanges didn't know what to do. 2:03:50 People were sending money to the wrong addresses. 2:03:52 Like all this kind of stuff was just, 2:03:54 you know, having like a prepared fork 2:03:56 might help a little bit for sure. 2:04:00 But one thing's for sure. 2:04:02 I think that the chances of this doing well 2:04:08 have a lot to do with hitting the ground running 2:04:10 in terms of like doing things, 2:04:13 getting a few key integrators, 2:04:15 whether it's a payment processor, 2:04:17 whether it's a wallet 2:04:19 that wants to do these kinds of things, 2:04:21 whether it's getting an exchange ready 2:04:22 to like switch between all the different coins, 2:04:25 kind of like a built-in insta-exchanger. 2:04:28 And yeah, I mean, that's, 2:04:30 and it's not really a question, 2:04:32 it's just sort of a comment. 2:04:34 I do think that that's going to be the deciding factor 2:04:36 of how well this whole thing does 2:04:38 is how much momentum you can get going. 2:04:41 It could be, you know, 2:04:43 the odds of any new chain launching 2:04:47 and doing well long-term are not very high. 2:04:49 But the odds would be, 2:04:50 it could be the surprise attack 2:04:52 that is sort of needed to just come out. 2:04:55 Like, oh my gosh, 2:04:57 this is actually taking some market share in some areas 2:04:59 and showing us up. 2:05:01 So yeah, it's an interesting thing. 2:05:03 Now, I don't know if anyone's asked this, 2:05:06 but if you have any questions, 2:05:07 I don't know if anyone's asked this, but it is absolutely none of my business. You could 2:05:11 just say, yeah, no thanks, I'm not going to answer that. What do you intend, this is what 2:05:15 all the Maxis would probably think though, do you intend to sell your actual BTC immediately 2:05:21 or are you just going to... 2:05:22 No, I really don't. No, I see it as a lifeboat, you know, on the Titanic. So I don't think 2:05:31 we should want to do this, but we should, if you see the Titanic, you know, headed for 2:05:36 an iceberg, this is a good time to like, you know, check the lifeboats and maybe like make 2:05:42 sure there are no holes in them and start like, you know, whatever. I know they didn't 2:05:45 have, they probably didn't have caulk back then, but you would want to start like caulking 2:05:48 them up, you know, or whatever they do, you know, varnishing them or making sure they're 2:05:53 still waterproof as soon as possible. So, yeah. I mean, what do you think is the future 2:06:01 for BTC? 2:06:05 I'm not 100% sure. I will say where I was wrong first, because everyone likes to say, 2:06:10 oh, I was right about this or I predict this, I expect to be right. Where I was wrong is 2:06:14 I thought that the, um, the unsustainability of the system would kind of implode on itself 2:06:24 within a few years. I didn't real like, you know, after 2017, like I thought it'd be like 2:06:28 2020, 2021, it starts to really give way to other things. And it kind of, you know, where 2:06:34 I was wrong on that is I think that, uh, I, you know, maybe I underestimated that the 2:06:39 network effects were some of the more powerful part. It wasn't the tech itself. It was the 2:06:43 network effects that were very entrenched, but also the base. The other thing is Bitcoin, 2:06:51 in my opinion, has persisted as a peer-to-peer electronic cash system, even though hobbled 2:06:57 in that. But what's happened is, right. It was a peer-to-peer electronic cash system 2:07:02 for this many transactions and it's remained that way. And what has happened though, is 2:07:06 it's stayed that way, but the wealth pyramid of that has just gone up. And so it has grown. 2:07:14 It has, even though the transaction capacity has not, the actual, uh, value transmission 2:07:20 capacity has kind of gone up. And I kind of feel like when it hits that ceiling where, 2:07:25 I mean, paying for Iranian ships and stuff like that, that's, that's one of the higher 2:07:30 ceilings you'd have, right. When you have nation States paying for big things like that, 2:07:34 it doesn't get much higher than that as far as that. And having liquidity for that, like 2:07:38 if you want to send a $1 billion, you can on Bitcoin. You can't really on many other 2:07:44 chains. It's just, it's not there. You can't liquidate it on the other side, for example. 2:07:49 So I think that it's kind of starting to get to that point where it's topping out. I also 2:07:53 think that, um, it's by not staying, by staying the same, pretending everything's okay is 2:08:01 kind of like let it coast for a while, but there's a couple events that are coming up. 2:08:07 They're going to require changes. And I think that either Bitcoin is going to get a second 2:08:11 win by making some very reasonable changes. And I think Drivechain should be one of 2:08:15 those, uh, but probably won't be, uh, or it will fail with these changes. And then that's 2:08:22 like the decline is, um, the sustainability ticking time bomb of like, how do you pay 2:08:28 the miners, the security budget after each halving, how does it keep happening? And do 2:08:33 you still trust Bitcoin as a, someone as investor, do you still trust Bitcoin if it's 2:08:39 secure, if it's hash rate is actually going down over time as opposed to, you know, still 2:08:43 going up, but not as high as the price. So that's number one. And number two is the 2:08:46 quantum thing. I don't think that the quantum competing threat is like, again, I, I'm 2:08:53 so not smart enough to really intelligently talk on this, but my gut feeling is it's not 2:08:57 going to be a huge problem in the short term. The problem is it has, it makes Bitcoin 2:09:03 make a, a annoying binary decision, which is you have to either migrate to post-quantum 2:09:09 addresses and then Satoshi's coins and all the others. 2:09:13 Uh, you either have to let them be stolen, in which case you reveal the true market cap 2:09:18 of Bitcoin by saying, oh, it was only 12 million coins were actually accessible. The 2:09:21 rest were lost, for example. And then you have massive dumping on the market. And then 2:09:25 the store value narrative takes a hit or you have to freeze people's coins or, and 2:09:30 you have to assume that they're no longer accessible, but they could have been people's 2:09:34 coins. And then you're like, why would I buy Bitcoin if it can be confiscated arbitrarily 2:09:38 in the future? So those things I think will shake it at some point. And then it will 2:09:43 start to have a, I don't think it's going to be a precipitous crash. I think it'll start 2:09:48 to just like, you know, it gets, it hits escape, you know, cruising altitude with the 2:09:53 institutions and everything. Government's the way it is now. I think this is about, is 2:09:57 close to the ceiling. And then it just stays there and sort of shakes down slowly over 2:10:02 time as other things take the headlines and take the users. 2:10:06 And then eventually people are like, hey, remember that Bitcoin one? 2:10:09 That's a, it's still, it's a, it's still at rank like 12 or 13, like, you know, but it's 2:10:14 maybe not number one yet. 2:10:16 So, yeah, that's my thought. 2:10:18 I think it's a pretty good thought. 2:10:20 I think in particular. 2:10:24 Well, the quantum idea, I think this speaks to like. 2:10:31 People's fear because it's like this is it's such a shock to the existing culture because 2:10:36 the culture is like Bitcoin is perfect and immortal. 2:10:40 Right. So this quantum thing shows up and it's like, oh, no, wait, maybe it's not. 2:10:45 Or maybe, maybe we don't know. 2:10:47 Or maybe it's maybe this is just FUD, but people kind of know in the back of their head 2:10:51 that they can't tell. 2:10:52 Yeah. So I would agree with that would trigger that triggers people, I think. 2:10:57 Yeah, there's there's just so many. 2:11:02 Like the current trajectory goes to the abyss and Bitcoin's changes since 2:11:09 2016, maybe whatever it was with SegWit at that that trajectory, that almost everything 2:11:17 that is done to help Bitcoin out or improve it or improve its market standing has all 2:11:22 been off chain, right? 2:11:23 It's all been other things. 2:11:25 Either it's been trying to do lightning stuff or it's been stuff like getting it into 2:11:29 strategic reserve legislation in the US. 2:11:32 It's been getting institutions, been Saylor buying it up. 2:11:35 It's been all this kind of stuff and eventually start to run into like those key 2:11:40 fundamental technical problems that Bitcoin has, which is not enough miner revenue long 2:11:44 term, because why would you use the chain to that degree and or an increasing degree 2:11:50 from now? And then you have to do something about the quantum thread. 2:11:53 Those are technical changes. 2:11:55 Bitcoin has not made technical changes, really, that are meaningful technical changes. 2:12:01 So I don't know how you'd paper over that with non-technical solutions. 2:12:06 You know, how do you bring money into the miners without bringing money into the 2:12:12 miners? Like, do you start a nonprofit? 2:12:15 Do you have government start to subsidize this? 2:12:17 Like, what do you do? And then what do you do as far as like the quantum stuff? 2:12:20 Do you just have this like post quantum signature scheme that people can move their 2:12:26 wallets to that uses some tap or whatever the hell? 2:12:28 I've seen someone talk about something like this, by the way. 2:12:31 Do you just do that and then just let quantum attackers take everyone else's coins who 2:12:35 haven't moved there? 2:12:37 And like, is that what you do? 2:12:38 Like, I don't know. 2:12:40 We'll see. Yeah, most of the the creative things that would that would work the most 2:12:47 effectively in terms of like getting everyone to emergency switch from quantum 2:12:53 vulnerable to quantum safe, like that would probably involve some kind of like hard fork 2:12:57 temporary block size increase for like those who want to go in one direction, like in the 2:13:03 turnstile. It says like, OK, if you want to quantum shield your UTXO, then you have 2:13:09 unlimited block space for that so that we can all do it quickly. 2:13:14 Not only does that involve like all kinds of crazy, you know, block size debate all over 2:13:19 again, but that would then involve like. 2:13:22 Chaos of the hard fork, and that would also force people to like, you know, use their 2:13:30 private keys to make a signature like really quickly, there would be all this kind of 2:13:35 chaos. Yeah, so that cuts again the whole Bitcoin like property rights, immortal 2:13:42 Bitcoin trope. 2:13:45 Yeah, there is just the oddly enough, like I kind of feel like the the the best 2:13:56 solution, the most do nothing solution is the most taboo, which is institute a tail 2:14:03 emission. And again, this is none of this is something I like, but institute a tail 2:14:09 emission that starts the base. 2:14:14 Just random idea is like, what if you started by just taking from coins that hadn't 2:14:18 moved in over 10 years and just turned them back into the block reward? 2:14:22 And if you ever ran out of things in the security pool, it would start inflating the 2:14:30 supply past 21 million. 2:14:32 And so basically it's first takes from all the dead coins. 2:14:36 And then if you want to prevent 21 million from being exceeded, you have to donate to 2:14:40 this one address that then would go into the block reward and kind of maintain things 2:14:47 the way it is. Well, these are all weird things that people doing instead of drive 2:14:50 chain, because Drivechain just says you have unlimited number of merge mined L2s and 2:14:55 you can collect an unlimited, you know, you can process unlimited and increasing number 2:15:00 of transactions that it doesn't matter if this the rate of transaction grows forever, 2:15:06 you know, geometrically and you can just get like more and more and more and more and 2:15:10 more money. So, you know, Drivechain is just one of the many things that Drivechain 2:15:13 would completely solve and we wouldn't even be need to be talking about it. 2:15:18 I don't know about if, you know, we have one of the L2s, one of the Drivechains is 2:15:23 quantum resistant. So we have an L2 that has just basically a signature key scheme 2:15:31 that's just quantum resistant. 2:15:34 I don't know if that's to what extent that would placate the quantum doomers, because 2:15:43 it wouldn't be on L1 and it wouldn't necessarily be in any other L2s. 2:15:47 It would at least, though, be like a demonstration of something that could work. 2:15:52 And it would also end the bike shedding to some extent, because it would say, well, 2:15:55 here's this one thing that someone tried and it worked. 2:15:57 So then because right now there's going to be lots of bike shedding overall, exactly 2:16:01 which thing. And so the whole thing will become kind of a circus. 2:16:05 It'll be interesting to see how strong the paralysis is in the face of a quantum. 2:16:10 And even now, it's kind of like. 2:16:15 It's like, you know, people have proposed Jameson, Lopp, et cetera, people propose 2:16:18 these things and everyone's like, well, we hate it. 2:16:21 It's very easy to hate something when you don't have to come up with your own thing, of 2:16:27 course. So I don't know. 2:16:32 I'm not exactly sure what to make of it all myself, but that's why I think we need, you 2:16:37 know, we've got to have those lifeboats ready. 2:16:39 Yeah, of course. 2:16:41 All kinds of different things. 2:16:43 It will be interesting to see how it develops because it's kind of like every single. 2:16:50 It seems like one of the biggest concerns, I guess, or one of the biggest issues with the 2:16:58 way the crypto market has played out is you either have single, you have single purpose 2:17:07 alts, which was kind of like that's like 2017 era type, type 2014, 2017, which is like, 2:17:13 let's do the thing that Bitcoin didn't do this one thing and then just kind of stick 2:17:16 there. And then you have like, try like no one's trying to copy Bitcoin in 2026. 2:17:23 Really? Maybe that's about it. 2:17:25 Right. But everyone else is like not everyone else is trying to do like the next high 2:17:31 powered, super scalable EVM style VM to the max out your mother's ass kind of thing. 2:17:38 Like that's what they're doing. And it does seem that like having and having a multiple 2:17:46 use case crypto that's still like you can have like you do the one thing, but you can 2:17:51 also do other one things. 2:17:52 And each it's kind of like an it's like an alt collector, right, where it's like you're 2:17:57 kind of launching as many altcoins as you want with this. 2:18:00 And so instead of launching a new altcoin, you just do it on this one. 2:18:04 So it keeps the capital all in there. 2:18:08 And so it could be right. 2:18:09 Exactly. Yes. 2:18:12 So that's the hope is that, you know, it can't succeed, you know, with only a few people 2:18:17 get involved, it can't succeed. 2:18:18 I think, you know, it's going to be comparable to Bitcoin itself, where Bitcoin was 2:18:23 misunderstood for a little while. 2:18:24 But people slowly realized that actually this is like the only like this is the only long 2:18:30 run sustainable type of a thing, I think. 2:18:33 But, you know, of course, could be wrong about that. 2:18:35 But yeah, I think like the sidechain idea has many benefits for like if you have a 2:18:39 really, really good if you're really good tech, if you have to do an altcoin, then 2:18:44 you're competing against other altcoins, which is kind of a really big drag because you 2:18:48 have to compete on all these other dimensions, as you pointed out before. 2:18:52 But instead, if everyone does those together as a common project in the whole system, now 2:18:59 you don't need to do all that other stuff. 2:19:01 You just need to have the best identity idea or whatever it is. 2:19:07 Yeah, many such cases. 2:19:09 Well, let's wrap this whole thing up. 2:19:10 We'll send you everyone to at Truthcoin on X, I guess, or the website is eCash.com, 2:19:18 which, you know, that's the the linchpin of the whole name. 2:19:22 If you are angry at so. 2:19:27 Please view and share this podcast, so I get more I need to get over 20,000 views on 2:19:33 YouTube, at least because then a Marissa Shea will be proven correct that I did this 2:19:37 just for the cheap clicks and I will get more cheap clicks than I got cheap clicks on 2:19:42 his interview, which probably was bought based on like the amount of like I did not 2:19:47 expect that one to be the one to really take off. 2:19:49 So we could have been bought it. 2:19:51 Whatever. I'm not making accusations, but point is, please get it above his cheap 2:19:55 clicks. But yeah, just get some get some cash with the fork pre there. 2:20:00 You're going to pre sell Satoshi's coins, right? 2:20:03 You're going to you're holding an estate. 2:20:04 Yes, we have already. 2:20:05 Yeah, we have already basically. 2:20:08 Yes. Nice. 2:20:10 And where do people do that if they want to do that? 2:20:12 Well, I don't know. 2:20:13 I said like I'm trying to only do it with like. 2:20:16 But yeah, people can DM me on Twitter. 2:20:18 I mean, I'm not on either Twitter or Telegram. 2:20:20 I'm Pete Storch. 2:20:21 P.S. Z.T.R.C. 2:20:23 on Telegram. Please don't. 2:20:26 I'm just who knows all the scammers. 2:20:27 It's just going to be, you know, I fear for because the industry is the worst and 2:20:31 there's a million scammers everywhere. 2:20:33 But yeah, if you DM me on Twitter and I'll talk to you about it, if I would rather 2:20:39 have like people who really experts who know what they're getting into and that type 2:20:43 of thing. So. 2:20:45 Yeah, absolutely. 2:20:46 Well, it sounds good. 2:20:48 Thanks, everyone, for watching. 2:20:49 This has been a fun show. 2:20:51 Please subscribe and then also follow Paul and all his endeavors and enjoy the show in 2:20:58 a little little bit. It's going to be it's going to be fun. 2:21:01 We saw the the eCash Amari's vision people upset at the name and some other people 2:21:09 wonder who the next group of people to be upset will be. 2:21:12 And that'll always be fun. 2:21:13 So thank you for your master troll work. 2:21:15 Are you going to be at the Bitcoin conference, by the way? 2:21:17 I forget. I will. 2:21:19 OK, well, without telling without giving too much information away, so will I. 2:21:24 So run into either, I guess, one of us, either of us, both of us and yell at us about 2:21:30 the name or whatever you want to yell at us for. 2:21:32 Yeah, she's coins and yeah, all of the above. 2:21:36 All right. See you guys. 2:21:37 Have a great weekend. Bye bye. 2:21:47 Adam, we're here because we love you and we're all tired of watching you get abused. 2:22:01 Abused? By who? 2:22:04 Hi, I'm Visa. 2:22:06 I charge you 29 percent interest, 3 percent foreign fees and make you wait three days 2:22:11 to see if your payment went through. 2:22:13 But I thought you were my friend. 2:22:15 Huh? No, Dash is your friend. 2:22:18 Instant, private, under a penny. 2:22:21 And with Dash Spend, you walk into over 100,000 stores and pay like a boss. 2:22:45 All ready, yes. 2:22:56 Awesome, thank you very much. 2:22:59 Feel alive, guys. 2:23:01 This is awesome. 2:23:06 Tastes like freedom. 2:23:08 Why don't I save five percent by using the app? 2:23:11 That's the Dash. Hi, baby. 2:23:12 Let's go. Download the mobile wallet. 2:23:14 One tap, boom, financial sovereignty.