0:00 Do you think it's possible for Bitcoin to continue to be successful and continue to be a leading market cap even without sidechains and Drivechains? Do you think that is possible? 0:24 I certainly think it's possible. I think it's a foolish thing because to me it's a zero risk. The sidechain experiment is zero risk. I hope that it's the case that it's just like that. 0:42 People tell a story that's just we're going to millions of dollars per coin and all we have to do is wait. I hope those people are right. That would be pretty convenient. I think it's foolish to bet everything on that, especially when the people saying that appear to have no idea how Bitcoin works or what's going on under the hood. 1:04 They confuse terms. They have no idea the state of the art of various technologies such as the Lightning Network that we rely on. It's clear that the people who are really knowledgeable are more sober and the people who know only little are the crazy promoters. 1:26 I think it's certainly possible because Bitcoin is a great idea. There's no good competitor to Bitcoin right now. Even Ethereum which is more popular in terms of fees is not really seen as reliable today although that could change because it's had a net shrinking supply ever since they switched to proof of stake. 1:48 I think proof of stake is a big mistake. Proof of mistake. But I think proof of stake is similar enough to proof of work that I think it's unlikely to be enough if lots of other things go their way. 2:04 So there's currently no good competitor. So I think it's possible that Bitcoin will just continue to do very well. People will want the existing fiat currencies to do such a bad job that people will switch to Bitcoin and Bitcoin has great momentum. Bitcoin has a long history. So I think it's possible to answer your question. 2:26 I share your view that it's possible, maybe even likely. And I share your view that it's concerning that a lot of people do not really understand Lightning and they don't realize how a lot of it can eventually become all custodial and also how there's really not much downside to trying this idea. 2:49 I guess that was my question. I'm wondering if there's anything else I can think of. If there's other people that want to come up and talk that's fine too. 3:20 I have another one. I think that basically these ordinals and inscriptions creates a base load fee market. The way I see it is now that it's a lot easier for people to put data on chain, very accessible for an average user. 3:41 Somebody will always want to put data for, let's say, one sat or two sats per V byte until unless Bitcoin can really, really rise to too expensive. Then maybe then that would disincentivize them. But as Bitcoin prices aren't that expensive, one sat per V byte is kind of like a really good price to put data on chain. 4:05 Do you think that's raising the fee market at least a little bit? 4:35 It's a very old idea. Greg Maxwell has a famous quote along those lines that the demand is infinite at the zero sat rate, which of course can't literally be true, but it's generally true. 4:50 In particular, the funny thing about ordinals is that you think this idea is really, really silly, but it's never going away. It always comes back. 5:03 ICOs, NFT, ERC, BRC, ordinal inscription, colored coins, MasterCoin, Omni, Tether, whatever. All this stuff constantly comes back. It's just something that people like. 5:20 It's better to do it on a specialized chain. It's also interesting that in the BitAssets blog post that I wrote many years ago, I don't know how many years, but it's a lot. Maybe it was 2018, maybe it was earlier, I don't even remember. 5:37 But I wrote that it might be good to just number the assets so that they have a chronological order and so the older ones have a little bit more rarity and distinctiveness. 5:48 That is interesting because that is the big drama of this week is the numbering of the BitAssets. I was onto something there. 5:59 Yeah, it's a bit of a drama. Do you think that the op return limit should be raised? Should there be no limit? 6:10 Yes, and in fact, the thing is, it's only what they call a standardness limit. If someone mines a block that has an op return that fills everything up, it takes up the whole one megabyte block. 6:29 So the current limit is just a mempool policy standardness rule? 6:33 Yeah, what will happen is if someone finds the block, then your node will accept it. But if you try to broadcast it, it will be a little ostracized. No one will pass the transaction. 6:46 Yeah, it won't propagate through the network, but if you have a block with this, then it's valid. 6:54 It's kind of amusing that my view is very parallel to Peter Todd's view on RBF, where I say something like, someone could write software that converts a one megabyte file or a file of any size into a series of transactions and back. 7:11 Like a one-to-one mapping from what would it look like, which is basically more or less what stamps is as far as I understand it, where it converts into just dumping outputs everywhere into a transaction. 7:27 And so you could do that. And since you can always do that, to me, I just think, well, what's the point? If someone is willing to pay for the block space, why not just let them use it directly? Why add overhead bytes? 7:42 And I also think it's a good idea. I think there's plenty of applications that are actually much cooler than merely ordinals and inscriptions. 7:51 And I like this idea of CoinNews that I like, which is like, you can put news there and then everyone will see it. 7:58 You have a little code and people subscribe to little lists or something. It's all sorted by fee. 8:05 And so you just see the highest fee thing each week or each day or whatever, however you set it up. 8:11 And so I think that the block space is a cool medium and it's going to be used for all kinds of things in the future. 8:19 But the fundamental point is that why would you insist that use of the blockchain take a certain form? 8:30 Like that's what I'm trying to say is anything like a JPEG can be turned into a bunch of transactions and back. You just have a conversion. 8:39 I agree. I think also that even like Bitcoin to Bitcoin transfers, they're really just data and you're just paying for this data to be on chain. 8:47 Like if you zoom out a little bit. So it's kind of arbitrary what data you want to be on chain as long as you pay for it. 8:53 It could be a Bitcoin transaction or it could be a different type of data. As long as you're paying for that data, I think that it's fine. 9:00 Yeah. And if we ask miners to do something other than maximize their revenue, then I think we are on a dark road and it will lead to complete chaos and nonsense. 9:14 To take the other side of the argument, I think that they want to disincentivize other type of Bitcoin use to make it at least cheaper for the use that they want for the time being. 9:28 Eventually, obviously, it will become more expensive, but maybe for the time being, they want it to be cheaper. So they kind of want to disincentivize the other use cases. 9:37 Yeah, I certainly understand that. If I put all this work into making a prediction market sidechain and then people are just putting silly images in that blockchain all day, I would be like, wait a minute, I don't want this. 9:51 This isn't what I wanted. But I think the thing to do about that is make your use case very good so that there is fee demand and then make it so that those people who want to do that type of thing have a blockchain that fully supports that, which is like, this is just good organization. 10:11 You just say, well, go to the BitAsset sidechain and you can make all these silly assets with images and stuff. 10:20 People might do it on the other chain that's made for it, but I think that there's still a novelty doing it on the base layer. Maybe it's more like a luxury or more Beblem good. 10:30 If it's more expensive, it's harder to do it on the base chain. There will always be some sort of demand to do it on the base chain and then it will be more easily accessible for the majority to do it on this other layer that's cheaper. 10:42 But I don't think it will go away from the desire of the base chain. 10:47 I've always kind of waited for it to go away. And that's what I was trying to say at the beginning about how people just keep coming up with this idea over and over and over again. And we live in a world with many assets. You have the S&P 500, you have stock in Facebook or Meta, I guess. People are always changing their names. 11:06 So people like it, I guess. They like MasterCoin, they like ColourCoin, they like this idea. So the idea is not going away. People like it. 11:16 Yeah, the tokenization is an old idea, right? Like even in 2013, 2014. 11:19 Even before Hal Finney with the crypto trading cards. 11:24 Yeah, true, true. But I think the NFT thing is a little bit more like normie friendly because trying to teach people about Bitcoin in early years, nobody really cared in real life circles. 11:37 Maybe some people might have cared, but it was very rare for people to understand hard money and the properties or the use case of Silk Road or anything like that. 11:45 But it was just it was very foreign. But then ICOs come around and maybe more people are interested because now they understand that speculation, that's investing. 11:54 And whatever it is, they're speculating on something that can potentially go up. But then when NFTs came around, it seemed like that was a bigger, broader use case. 12:02 People were able to understand, oh, it's a picture. OK, I'm buying this picture. And they were able to resonate with this profile picture. 12:09 And I've seen way more people onboarded. Maybe it's just because every cycle there's more people, but I've just seen way more normies onboarded from NFTs than any of the previous cycles. 12:19 So I think that there's something to that. 12:22 It is weird. I know. It's a funny like a product market fit like phrase. It's kind of like this is what people like, I guess, for now. 12:30 Well, you know, it's weird because we have in Bitcoin, we have de-emphasized the whole payments, remittances, like things we used to emphasize. 12:40 We have de-emphasized all of that, which is kind of funny because there's a little bit of an unexpected, ironic twist, which is that they're pushing so hard to purge many use cases. 12:56 It's only left the one that could like flout the rules, is I guess what I'm trying to say. 13:05 But whatever. Now we have a Miguel and a Flavor who have come up, so we should maybe let them speak. 13:11 For sure. 13:17 Hello. Yes, I could hear you a little. 13:19 OK, great. 13:21 So I've been studying your BIP for two years and I found out there's nothing doing like a trustless peg out like this. 13:30 So I thought it was an interesting idea. 13:34 And so I tested it. It was good. 13:39 Everything was working. 13:41 And then a couple of years later, Fiat Jaffa was pushing this here in Brazil, like they made a video with Bitcoineros here in Brazil. 13:55 And again, this idea came up again in my mind. 13:59 And I decided to talk with a few Bitcoineros in Brazil, Bitcoiners in Brazil. 14:05 And the main thing that I've, the main critique that I got was, oh, you're pushing shitcoin to Bitcoin. 14:16 But they don't understand that. 14:19 Right. It's not true. It's zero percent true. 14:22 Right. There's already all that stuff that we mentioned. 14:25 Tarot, RGB, ordinal descriptions, all that stuff already allows shitcoins on any blockchain. 14:31 So this does nothing at all to bring shitcoins to Bitcoin. 14:35 I don't know. 14:37 That is the main thing. 14:38 Even if you explain to them like, man, we don't want to change Bitcoin. 14:43 We want to ossify, right? 14:45 So BIP300 could be the possibility to do that. 14:47 Because if you want to have like your own agenda to push to lightning, to stable lightning or something like that. 14:54 I want to see TV, I want APO or any other soft forks. 14:59 OK, that's OK. You can get that. 15:01 Do a copycat of Bitcoin, do it in a Drivechain, test that, put ARK on that, put Enigma, anything on that. 15:09 And then if you have enough peggings, enough people using that and you can showcase to everybody. 15:15 And it's retrocompatibility, we have retrocompatibility with the main chain code. 15:21 We can push that later in 30 years of trying that. 15:25 And with the free market showing to us like a signal to everybody with peggings and pegouts working. 15:32 That's a good signal, you know. 15:34 So then we could have like a good argument against the progressive that want to have like their own agenda to push code to the core. 15:46 We can have like, OK, so do it in a Drivechain first. 15:50 If you have enough peggings and enough users and everything is OK, no war, no other things that people are complaining right now. 15:58 We can push back to the code, to the reference code. 16:01 So that is the main reason that people are not getting. 16:06 And the other reason is like I live in Brazil, I live in a poor country and it's impossible. 16:12 Like if you have like a third degree math, it's impossible to have everybody using UTXOs. 16:20 So come on, guys, it's impossible. 16:24 If you want to onboard Brazil, it's impossible to have like important UTXOs. 16:28 So we need to have a way to split Satoshis into small pieces. 16:32 So it's divisibility that we want to, not inflation. 16:36 If you want to push like Drivechain to a shitcoin. 16:39 Oh, do it on Litecoin. 16:40 That was the main critique that I had. 16:43 Do it on Litecoin. 16:44 Why? 16:46 Why should it pump a scammer coin? 16:49 Why? 16:50 Because Litecoin is competing with the base layer. 16:54 Not the usability that Litecoins provide us, but the Litecoin itself, the token, the fucking token. 17:00 I don't know why people are not getting this. 17:04 Really, if you want to have like every human on earth on Bitcoin. 17:10 We need to have like a way to divide a UTXO. 17:14 And for me, like I've been studying this for two years and there's nothing else that we can do. 17:20 Like this in a trustless way, you know. 17:23 So thank God, man. 17:24 And anyways, it was just a rant because I don't have to complain about anything. 17:30 If I have to, I am not a... 17:32 I don't have to complain about anything. If I have to, I am not a protocol designer. 17:35 The things that I maybe don't like is it's maybe we can use like a Merkle tree or something to, to don't push like the message with the, with the weight. 17:48 I don't know. I don't have any complaints. 17:50 You know, I don't know what to critique about the way that you did, because I've kind of agreed with everything. 17:55 So anyways, just, just a rant. Sorry, man. 18:01 Well, I mean, that's how I feel as well. 18:03 I think that, you know, if you go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends and you can see that there's a lot of very top people who also feel sort of, you know, they're thinking along those lines. 18:14 Like, this is a good idea. 18:15 We should try this. 18:16 We need, somehow we need to get a billion UTXOs. 18:21 We don't want custodial. 18:23 That's a, you know, that's admitting defeat. 18:27 So yeah, I agree with all that. 18:29 I think the reason it's unpopular among a small number of loud people is actually because it is actually competes with them in some way. 18:40 So some of them are like people who work on competing. 18:43 If you work on, if you really work hard on lightning or RGB or even liquid or whatever, then it might, so it might make you not look so great. 18:52 Especially if you, a lot of people sell the infallibility, like the whole sailor safety and kind of pipeline of like just selling everyone on big, big wishful thinking that everything's going to be perfect. 19:07 And which would be great if it, if it was, that would be great. 19:11 I mean, and I wouldn't be complaining if that was the case, but again, like they don't seem to really know. 19:15 They don't really know like the details. 19:17 So, so they say that, but then if we say, okay, if we work really hard, we can improve this. 19:22 We can copy Zcash. 19:24 We can copy EVM. 19:25 We can copy Bitcoin Cash. 19:27 They just think, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 19:28 I've been telling everyone that Ethereum sucks. 19:31 I've been telling everyone Bitcoin Cash sucks. 19:33 I've been telling everyone that all these things suck. 19:36 So they'd kind of just weirdly contradicts them, which is bizarre because it means that those people are really hurting Bitcoin for no reason. 19:49 Because the best way, you know, to defeat those things would be, it's like you have a cell phone and it has a camera in it. 19:56 You know, if you really want to, you want to say phones are better than digital cameras. 20:01 This is a wrong pitch, man. 20:04 Because the right pitch is you don't need to throw away all the infrastructure that we are building right now. 20:12 We can test it in a Drivechain. 20:14 You don't have to throw anything away because imagine if we have like 256 Drivechains. 20:21 I think you're right. 20:21 I think they kind of feel like it is though. 20:24 I'm just trying to answer your question. 20:26 No, no, no. 20:27 Yeah, but you're right. 20:28 You're right. 20:28 You're completely right. 20:29 You're correct. 20:31 But you're getting the wrong marketing. 20:33 You know, you're looking to the wrong, you have to convince them, not critique them. 20:39 That's the point. 20:39 That's the whole point. 20:40 You have to onboard everybody. 20:42 And if you like, for example, Bitcoin Core developers. 20:47 It's a huge responsibility for you guys to push any soft fork. 20:51 I know that. 20:52 That's why B300 is going to prevent you and okay, do it in a Drivechain first and then we'll see that. 20:59 So it's going to relieve them from the scene of doing anything wrong. 21:04 You know, so that's the pitch. 21:06 Yeah, I know. 21:06 Yeah, I think you're right. 21:08 That's good. 21:08 The pitch for the entrepreneurs is, come on, you're going to have like 256 Drivechains. 21:14 You're going to build a lot of bridges between them. 21:17 You're going to farm the yield of six months of having a UTXO locked in a space. 21:23 So come on, I think you're, maybe you're just tired of having like that so much conversation 21:35 and a lot of people pointing you like, oh, you're a shitcoiner, you're a big blocker or something 21:41 like that because you're now doing to me. 21:43 That's really strange because if you see my records, it's really weird, you know? 21:49 So people are complaining the usability of new tokens to shitcoinery, you know? 21:55 So they are not getting the divisibility part and the inflation problem, you know? 22:02 That's the main thing here. 22:03 And when you pitch to a search user, you know, it's hard to complain about them, you know? 22:13 So anyways, maybe that's my own critique, like the marketing thing, you know? 22:20 Yeah, it's difficult because I think... 22:24 Oh, another rant, man. 22:26 Sorry. 22:27 It's, well, it's kind of like, I don't know. 22:33 I think a lot of people are in bad faith. 22:35 So it's kind of like, no matter what we would say, they would twist it. 22:38 I kind of think is my suspicion. 22:44 But, you know, if we go like really carefully and we go through like all the risks and people 22:47 say, oh, it sounds risky. 22:49 And then if I say, well, there really aren't any risks because it's just some opcode counting 22:53 13,000 that we could just shut off. 22:56 We could have it go back to what it was doing before at any time. 23:00 And so there's no risk. 23:01 And then people are like, oh, there's no risk. 23:03 Oh, it sounds like you're just making things up. 23:06 I think that a lot of people have trouble understanding what is the benefit of this. 23:12 And I think that what Miguel said was really valuable, where if you, obviously, to every 23:18 different audience, there's a different benefit, right? 23:20 If you talk to somebody that is interested in experimenting on EVM, you can show them 23:25 that side of it. 23:25 Somebody like a Bitcoin Core developer, you can, like Miguel said, you can show them the 23:29 side of, well, you guys can test on a Drivechain. 23:32 To every audience, you got to find a benefit for it. 23:36 Even aside from the FUD that they give and showing how that's incorrect, they're still 23:41 not seeing a benefit. 23:42 But if they can see a benefit to it, and obviously, every audience will have their own benefit 23:46 to it, then maybe if they see, all right, there can be something positive from it. 23:50 Now, let's see if there's negatives. 23:53 I just found that really valuable, what Miguel said. 23:55 Yeah. 23:55 Well, I think you guys are right. 23:57 I mean, at the same time, people ask and I say, well, Zcash privacy and immediate global 24:03 scale, people just don't pick it up for some reason. 24:08 But I think one thing that will help is we're making the software easier and easier to use, 24:15 and I think at that point, it will click for a lot of people. 24:19 I'm wondering if there's going to be a prolonged high fee environment. 24:24 I don't know, maybe 100 cents per V-byte or even higher. 24:27 Yeah. 24:27 Some people think that, yeah. 24:29 They call it feepocalypse, the idea. 24:32 I think that might actually get people more open-minded. 24:37 What do you think? 24:38 Because I heard from, I don't know, I want to ask you about this because I heard- 24:43 Okay, then we'll go to Flavor though. 24:47 Do you think it's possible that the fees will be high for a long period of time? 24:51 I kind of don't. 24:52 I personally just don't see it. 24:55 I mean, define high, more than $10 per 200 bytes or something? 25:01 Hundreds of dollars per transaction. 25:04 I mean, I just don't see that because I feel like a normal person would be so annoyed by 25:08 that and they would just say, I'm not using this, so I'm not using it as frequently. 25:15 Instead of transacting five times a week, they just say, I'll get you at the end of the month. 25:19 Then they reduced it by a factor of 20. 25:21 If demand continues to rise, there will be always people that will batch for $100 per 25:26 transaction and there will always be demand for that. 25:29 Eventually, there will be demand for $200 per transaction. 25:31 Eventually, there'll be demand for... 25:33 It's the idea of the Bitcoin banks. 25:36 It's going to be used as a settlement layer of very economically dense transactions. 25:41 Well, I think that could only happen if there was lots and lots of transacting happening 25:46 in some kind of second layer, custodial included. 25:51 I don't know if... 25:54 I mean, because already it's quite a bit. 25:56 It's already like 2,000 or so, 2,500 maybe, per 10 minutes and there's 1,000 blocks a 26:03 week. 26:04 So it's open Sunday and Saturday, unlike many banks. 26:08 So that is 2.5 million a week and that's a lot. 26:17 I think it's uncomparable because if you're comparing it to a data availability layer 26:22 that's just immutable data that's going to be there forever. 26:25 And I think that the cost of that is actually way higher than the current market realizes. 26:31 I think that not enough people really realize just the data availability of Bitcoin. 26:37 Once people start to realize that and maybe other applications, maybe other use cases, 26:41 whatever it is, and maybe just simple economic transactions, maybe that too. 26:46 I think as there's more demand for Bitcoin, just the fees are going to continue to go 26:50 up. 26:50 I could be wrong about that. 26:52 Obviously, average users would not be paying for it, but I think that there will always 26:56 be demand higher and higher eventually. 26:58 I don't know. 26:58 Yeah, but when the fees go up though, doesn't it? 27:01 I mean, there's a supply curve and a demand curve. 27:02 So it's like, when the fees go up, more people start to look for alternatives, I think, is 27:08 my guess. 27:09 Eventually, there'd be a demand. 27:11 It is because the fee is $100 per transaction that people would be like, I need to find 27:16 a way to not use it. 27:17 This is a good argument, because if the fees go up, obviously, people would just use other 27:20 chains, right? 27:20 Like the average user, they don't care that much to use the base layer. 27:23 Not enough, yeah. 27:25 Right? 27:25 But they don't care enough to pay $100 per transaction on the base layer. 27:29 They could just use another chain. 27:30 Yeah. 27:31 If you lower your time preference, you can earn a lot of cash if you don't make the 27:37 transaction when the fees are high. 27:39 That's the whole point. 27:40 Yeah, that's what I mean by the base load, right? 27:44 There's always going to be people like, as you can see, there's going to be a demand 27:47 to hold. 27:47 That's the point. 27:49 That's the whole point. 27:50 When the fees are high, there's going to be a demand to hold. 27:53 Because I just think that eventually, people will value transacting on the base layer, 28:01 and it will be more expensive. 28:03 They'll be okay with it. 28:04 Not the average people, not the average people, but like institutions and settlement layers 28:08 are going to value making their, like if a nation state trades with another nation state, 28:13 they're going to want to do it on the base layer, and they might not want to do it on 28:15 any other chain because that's just not good enough for them. 28:18 They want military grade technology, like military grade security. 28:21 They want the best security as possible, and they'll be willing to pay for that. 28:25 I don't know. 28:26 That's kind of how I see it, but I don't think it's anytime soon. 28:29 But it might be that that will happen. 28:34 I mean, in what other context do people pay? 28:36 Like what if someone said, every time you're going to refuel your car, it's going to switch 28:41 from being like a certain amount, and it's going to be like 10 or 100 times more. 28:47 People would just be like, well, I'm kind of annoyed at this. 28:49 And they'll think, maybe I'll Uber. 28:52 Maybe I'll take the bus. 28:53 Maybe I'll move to someplace. 28:54 Yeah, the average user. 28:56 The way I see it is the demand is going to be from custodial services, other layers of 29:01 custodial services, banks within each other, nation states within each other, things like 29:05 that. 29:06 But then they're paying like $100 per transaction for 2.5 million transactions a week. 29:12 So they're paying like $100 million a week. 29:17 So won't they just vertically integrate yet again and become custodial within their group? 29:24 They'll just say, well, we can save. 29:27 Why are we giving this money? 29:28 Why are we giving all this money to miners? 29:30 $200 million a week. 29:33 I think that kind of... 29:34 But anyway, you ask a question. 29:36 I think it's possible. 29:37 But yeah, I think it's very much an uphill battle. 29:39 And of course, we see historically when the fees go up, people tend to complain. 29:44 And then they tend to fall right back down. 29:46 So they don't really stay above like $1 per transaction ever. 29:53 But I mean, except in periods where we're having this huge price bubble and everyone's 29:57 getting rich anyway. 29:58 And so it doesn't really make any difference. 30:00 But that's my thought. 30:02 I mean, you ask. 30:03 So of course, it's a tricky empirical question. 30:06 I give you my answer. 30:07 I say probably not. 30:08 But it's possible. 30:10 A lot of people think that Alex K and Moon Settler, they believe in the feepocalypse 30:14 also. 30:15 So maybe you can hang out with them. 30:17 OK, we should go to Flavor though, because he's been up here this whole time. 30:21 Flavor. 30:23 Hey, Paul. 30:23 Thanks. 30:24 My question is a little different than what you've been talking about. 30:27 I want to know, if somebody asked you for advice, like maybe a college kid had an idea 30:36 for a BIP and they wanted advice about how to promote their BIP, what advice would you 30:42 give somebody? 30:45 I would say it's actually, at present, I think it's hopeless. 30:48 I think you would want to get BIP300 and then just do the idea on the sidechain. 30:53 I think, in fact, I would definitely say if someone's a young college kid and they have 30:57 an idea that's significantly new, I think that honestly, they should just launch an 31:02 altcoin and they should give themselves a nice cut and they should try to make some 31:07 money off of it that way. 31:08 Because I think that the Bitcoin community is in a state right now where it will just 31:12 reject all new ideas. 31:16 And so it won't want, even if your idea is really, really great, they won't want it 31:21 anyway. 31:22 And if the idea is mediocre, then it's sort of like a moot point. 31:27 And so I think that's it. 31:29 You know, throw your reputation on the floor, like don't do that. 31:31 Just build on a sidechain, please. 31:35 Yeah, well, that's what I would do. 31:38 I mean, I think they should hope that BIP300 activates and then they can build their 31:41 thing as a cool Bitcoin project. 31:43 I mean, that's what I would hope. 31:44 But someone today who has a BIP, I think it's not possible. 31:50 Because I already did all the things that you're supposed to do, like the mailing list, 31:54 conversation, present at conferences, get feedback, like the miner centralization thing. 32:03 I invented Blind Merged Mining because of that, but it didn't matter one bit. 32:06 And similarly, the miners can steal. 32:08 I moved it from two weeks to three months, but it didn't matter. 32:12 So I think it's not a good idea. 32:15 And in fact, you know, someone like Udi or Casey with Ordinals, where they just made, 32:22 they wrote it in a way, they wrote it in a different way and just launched it. 32:29 That obviously worked better. 32:31 So I would just launch something at this point. 32:35 I think it would have been more interesting if I had launched the prediction markets thing 32:39 as an altcoin. 32:39 It would be like in the Monero category of like altcoins that are in a diminished state, 32:46 but have carved out a little niche. 32:48 And I think that the more important thing is to be creative and to be able to actually 32:53 get feedback from real users of your idea. 32:57 So if you have an idea and you want to try it out, then I would focus on doing that. 33:03 I would not focus on trying to persuade people in Bitcoin that the idea is good, 33:08 because I think that is a misuse of valuable time. 33:12 I'm only doing it because I think this idea is so good. 33:14 And Bitcoin, I already have, you know, a lot of history with Bitcoin. 33:19 I own Bitcoin. 33:20 And so I'm a Bitcoiner. 33:22 It's too late for me to escape. 33:24 But I would not even recommend that someone else do that. 33:29 Well, I'm defending this idea because I think it's the right thing to ossify Bitcoin development 33:35 and also give scale to Bitcoin. 33:37 Yeah, me too. 33:39 That's the whole point. 33:40 I'm not trying to scam anyone. 33:42 I'm trying to build the thing that I love Bitcoin, but really, I don't want to be my 33:46 bad project. 33:47 I want to build for everyone. 33:49 So that's the whole point. 33:50 I'm right. 33:51 Yes, exactly. 33:51 Yes, I agree. 33:54 Man, come on. 33:57 Well, you say it's bad for me. 33:58 The person asked like kind of a straightforward question, though. 34:03 So I think that they, I mean, I think you're right, though. 34:05 But, well, you know, what do they, what is that person supposed to actually do, though, 34:11 between now and the activation of BIP300, you know, what is that college student supposed 34:17 to do? 34:17 We are in the phase of a consensus, of a break of a consensus thing. 34:23 So the point here is like to convince people. 34:27 Like, that's the whole idea, right? 34:30 We have to convince people. 34:31 Like, I think the miners should be the first one to convince. 34:35 I agree. 34:37 I think many of the miners, well, many of the miners are very convinced, but they are, 34:43 they feel awkward about the whole political reality. 34:46 But they don't have to feel awkward about it. 34:49 Yeah, I agree. 34:49 They have to be excited about it. 34:51 Come on, we're going to board everyone. 34:54 That's the whole thing, without changing the base layer, not without changing the base 34:58 layer, because, oh, if there's a security problem, we're not going to change. 35:02 No, no, we're going to change. 35:04 Of course, this is software. 35:05 We need updates. 35:05 That's OK. 35:07 But we're going to ossify the new consensus break or the things that people are not, are 35:13 complaining about and are agreeing, you know. 35:16 So we're going to move that to another layer of discussion, of a free market of idea, you 35:20 know. 35:21 So there's no complaint. 35:23 There's nothing to shame to be pro drivechains. 35:27 That's the whole point. 35:30 Because it's the correct thing. 35:31 That's at least for me, you know, I saw a journalist in Brazil talking about your past 35:39 because you were a guy that, I don't know, he cherry picked a few things on your LinkedIn 35:46 and made a case that you're a big blocker. 35:49 I know, but that's the funny thing is that I'm not at all. 35:52 It's very funny. 35:55 I'm sorry to interrupt. 35:57 Thanks, Miguel. 35:57 And thanks, Flavor, for your question. 36:00 I don't know if you want to follow up with that. 36:02 And then after, I don't know if it's possible if Chris Black would like to come up because 36:06 I know he's known in the space. 36:07 Maybe he can ask him some questions or share some thoughts, too. 36:11 But Flavor, did you want to follow up? 36:16 He seems to have fallen down into the listener box from what I can see. 36:20 I don't know if that's on purpose or not, but maybe he'll come back up. 36:26 I don't know. 36:27 But yeah, Miguel, I agree with you. 36:29 But it's like, what exactly, like specifically, you know, do you think we should do differently? 36:42 You know, because it's like all that stuff is already out there. 36:47 That information is already out there. 36:49 I think there's, you know, I also think that it is working slowly. 36:56 So, I mean, you could just draw a line like, where was it two years ago? 37:02 Where was it last year? 37:04 Where is it now? 37:04 So, in a way, it's a very good thing that all they have to say is bringing shitcoins 37:12 to Bitcoin, which is completely 100% untrue. 37:15 And that I'm a large blocker, which is completely untrue. 37:18 You can even go at scaling three, the recording of October 2016, where I advocate shrinking 37:24 the L1 block size, which I still do on my blog. 37:31 So, those two things are like flatly untrue, just completely. 37:35 And they're scraping the bottom of the barrel if they say, listen, when his career was like 37:43 long before Michael Saylor had ever heard of Bitcoin, he was working at some, Paul was 37:51 working for someone or someone was sponsoring technical work or something. 37:56 It doesn't make any difference. 38:00 You know, what's also funny is that Blockstream has tried to hire me for many years. 38:04 And I always say if I refuse to work there. 38:06 And in fact, this is publicly known because I tweeted about it. 38:09 I tweeted screenshots where I say, if I work for Blockstream, everyone will just think 38:13 that my ideas are good, even if they suck. 38:16 Because this happens all the time with Blockstream, where they come out with some idea. 38:20 And in any other context, it would suck. 38:23 But because it came from Blockstream, everyone just thinks, wow, this idea is so great. 38:26 And I'm just like, that's too lame for me. 38:28 The satellite. 38:29 Do you think your BIP300 would have done better if you actually worked for Blockstream? 38:35 No, I think it definitely would have. 38:37 But maybe the idea itself would have been worse. 38:40 It's hard to say. 38:42 But yeah, I think now if I could redo it, I would say people are so dumb that they need that. 38:49 They need that thing because they don't think for themselves. 38:51 So I would have taken it and gone in and gone into Blockstream. 38:57 And then I would have just hoped that I would still be able to make the idea good. 39:01 And so I think that if I could do it over, I would do that. 39:06 Yeah, and I would have worked for different people, probably. 39:09 Although I also think being unplugged from the cult is enormously valuable. 39:17 If you're plugged into the cult, then you're dead. 39:20 So you'll never have a good idea. 39:22 It's impossible because you have too much. 39:25 Christopher Hitchens used to say he wouldn't go out to have dinner with someone because he knew 39:31 he had to write about them later or something. 39:33 So he was a journalist. 39:34 So you don't want to become friends with them. 39:38 Then it will corrupt. 39:42 So I don't know. 39:43 Maybe it would have been much worse. 39:45 BIP300/301 would have been inferior quality if I had. 39:51 I think that's very likely. 39:52 But I think I would still redo it because I had no idea that people would be so clueless. 39:59 And I think also I was kind of very slow and careful in developing it, which is also a mistake 40:06 because we have the altcoins have gotten better and there's more sour grapes now. 40:13 And the cult problem has gotten worse every year. 40:18 So those two problems have gotten worse and worse. 40:20 And that's not good. 40:23 This is almost the last lifeboat leaving the Titanic. 40:27 I think it might have been more fruitful if it came. 40:31 It still could have came from you and you still could have made it all. 40:34 But if it was from the backing with Blockstream or the connection with Blockstream, 40:38 definitely I think it potentially could have been way more fruitful. 40:43 Right. 40:43 I agree. 40:50 Anyway, we do have a Chris Block here, but he is not coming up, I guess. 40:56 So Miguel, yes. 40:59 I just want to say thank you for your work, man. 41:01 I really appreciate your attention. 41:04 Hey, thanks for your attention. 41:05 And the only critique that I have to you is maybe you do a little bit of training with 41:12 your pitch, with the marketing. 41:15 But everything else, man, thanks a lot. 41:17 Awesome work. 41:18 Thanks a lot. 41:21 Hey, thanks. 41:22 We'll try to get better at that. 41:23 I think eventually it will pass. 41:26 There will be a different type of person who, you know what I mean? 41:31 Maybe it has to be like there's Satoshi and then there's Hal Finney and then there's 41:35 Andrea Santanopoulos and then there's different people who's the right person. 41:40 Like I think Nassim Taleb, something like you want a, you know, 41:45 you want a, you want very optimistic flight attendants and a paranoid pilot or something, 41:55 you know? 41:56 Like the pilot has to be paranoid and because you don't want the, they're responsible 42:02 for the decisions that cause the plane to crash. 42:05 But you want the, you don't want the flight attendants to be like paranoid, you know? 42:08 Because then everyone's thinking like, what? 42:10 Like everyone, the poor people in the cabin of the ship, in the cabin of the plane are 42:17 like, what? 42:18 Like, do we have to worry about all these things? 42:20 And it's like, no, no, it's going to be fine. 42:22 So I think maybe more people will get involved and it will expand in that direction. 42:27 And, you know, a lot of people have, 42:29 many, many people have reached out to interview me or to ask about what I'm 42:31 doing or to invite me to come speak at the conference that they're doing. 42:35 So I have been getting a lot more attention. So I think that the, 42:39 especially if it's just things that are just like bringing shit coins to 42:43 Bitcoin and Paul's a large blocker, like if, 42:47 if that's all that we've got to fight through, 42:50 then this will be over in like two, two more weeks. 42:53 Because it's just not even close to the truth. 42:55 So then people will be like, what else have I been lied to about? 42:58 And then it will kind of, and then people will come up with some story. 43:02 They'll say, well, it was a great idea, but it was presented wrong. 43:05 So that they have some out for themselves, you know, 43:07 they need to have some, some little story. It can't be, oh, I was wrong too. 43:11 You know? So, but whatever it is, people will figure it out. 43:15 Anyway, we have a, a trip doe. 43:19 A trip doe person is now here. Hello. 43:27 Hi. So. 43:29 I don't really have too many questions on like drive trends or I'm still 43:33 reading and studying all of that. I think it's really cool work. 43:37 But like on, do you, are you familiar with gumma? 43:40 I'm not sure if you've heard of gumma, but it's like a, 43:43 it's a really cool thing. And it's like a, 43:45 but like on, do you, are you familiar with gummo? 43:48 This, this hacker, his name is gummo. 43:51 Apparently has seven and a half billion dollars of Bitcoin. 43:56 Wow. That's cool. No, I don't think so. Maybe. 44:01 Domo. There's no other G-O-M-O. That's the whole thing. 44:07 Yeah. He follows me and like, he followed me the other day after I, 44:12 it's interesting. 44:13 He followed me after I had tweeted something about how a drive trains 44:17 interact with layer twos and blah, blah, blah. 44:20 And apparently he has like, you know, 44:23 seven and a half billion dollars worth of Bitcoin. 44:25 And he's had that since like Oh nine 2010. I don't know. 44:29 I think he's a candidate for Satoshi Nakamoto. 44:31 I was wondering what you guys think about this guy. 44:35 Well, unfortunately I don't know a lot about, 44:37 there are many such people who, 44:39 cause I've been around a while and there is a lot of people who have a ton of 44:43 Bitcoin and they do not, they don't tweet. They don't, you know, 44:47 they don't, 44:48 they have great OPSEC and it's a well-kept secret and there's a lot of super, 44:53 and they don't like moving their coins either. They have the old coins. 44:56 They, and then whenever they move them, 44:57 they like drive up into the Swiss mountains or something and sign a bunch of 45:02 transactions on like an air gapped laptop and they have all the weird 45:05 ceremonies. So there's a couple of characters like this and they're very 45:08 interesting people. 45:10 Yeah. And he's been, he's been hacking, like, I mean, he, 45:12 he's been hacking since the days where you, you know, 45:15 you use the whistle to hack long distance phone calls with AT&T and then 45:23 yeah. And then eventually, you know, 45:25 building systems for the government's building systems for networks like AT&T, 45:30 IBM, all these, whatever they are. I mean, 45:33 she's an interesting character and you know, that much Bitcoin, that long, 45:39 uses a flip phone, doesn't use smartphones. Like it's interesting. But anyway, 45:45 I can't stand that these smartphones don't have like a switch to disable the 45:48 camera. There's no like cover. I just think that's an outrage. 45:53 Every, every webcam has one. 45:55 These things are pointed at where we are and our own face all the time. 46:01 It's kind of annoying. That's my little pet peeve among many, of course. 46:05 But you know, as far as the surveillance state, 46:09 it's so annoying and stupid thing and it's taking over everyone's life. 46:13 But anyway, yeah, I don't know a lot about that person, 46:16 but I will look into that. 46:21 Yeah. Thanks. 46:22 And I'm looking forward to tweeting about the Qybips idea. 46:27 It's mostly fun, mostly theoretical, 46:29 but looking forward to what LayerTwo Labs has to say about Qybips. 46:38 What is that? A quantum computer? 46:42 I have a theory about how the future of Bitcoin will kind of function once we're 46:47 off of classical computers. 46:49 Yeah, right. Yeah. 46:51 Yeah. So I just, you know, quantum AI bips, Qybips. 46:56 I'm kind of structuring how that would work, if it would work and really necessary, 47:01 which it really isn't unless we're not mining, 47:05 unless we're not mining with classical computers. 47:10 And I think Bitcoin can still survive even in a quantum world with classical 47:15 computation and classical miners. So yeah, it's mostly for fun. 47:21 Yeah, that's a cool idea. 47:23 I think I met a lot of people who are very worried about imminent progress in 47:30 quantum computing, which is interesting. 47:35 Yeah. I mean, it's complicated because, well, 47:40 what is really susceptible to all of this immensely fast factoring from these 47:49 quantum computers and it's initially it's, 47:54 initially it's, you know, signatures are going to be, 48:03 quantum secure multi signatures would be nice. 48:08 You know, quantum enhanced mining would be cool. 48:11 And then if we can actually, if Drivechains actually work properly, 48:15 well, they will work, but if they're implemented rather, 48:18 then we can start implementing smart contracts on Bitcoin. 48:24 I think quantum makes all of that a bit more complex and maybe less feasible or 48:30 more feasible. I don't know yet. It's mostly just a fun theory I'm working on. 48:34 Yeah, that's pretty cool. 48:35 But we should make more space for anyone who has something that's more on topic 48:40 maybe. 48:42 So hopefully if someone has something else they want to say, 48:50 come on up. 48:53 Well, yeah, that's a neat idea. 48:57 I definitely think that that's one of the sort of wildcard scenarios for BTC. 49:05 Like, well, how will it deal with, because, you know, 49:07 I had heard for a long time that they were quantum computers were coming out 49:10 coming along very slowly. And then recently in the last 18 months, 49:14 it seems like they have been going way, 49:17 way further than people had originally thought. 49:21 Yeah. I mean, the hardware will be there for the public, you know, 49:26 within the next five or 10 years to just really move off of classical computers 49:31 and maybe even classical mining machines. 49:33 But I had tweeted recently that I liked Drivechains because they allow devs to 49:37 migrate off Ethereum L2s and avoid custodial liquid staking and off-chain 49:42 governance. 49:43 So proof of work can prevail while devs and traders continue practicing the few 49:47 benefits ETH has left without sacrificing decentralization. 49:51 Yeah, that's a good one. I like that. 49:55 Yeah, that's what I like about Drivechains as far as I understand them now. 49:59 You know, with my experience developing on other blockchains, 50:02 it's, it's, it's, you know, 50:04 it's difficult because they're not necessarily decentralized and proof of 50:09 stake is very, 50:10 very inefficient in terms of centralizing or decentralizing processes. 50:17 Yeah, I agree that proof of work, 50:19 there is no reason to move from proof of work to proof of stake. 50:24 I think it's smart though of Ethereum to try to be different than BTC and all 50:29 these ways they know about product differentiation, I think. So, but yeah, 50:35 I think actually that's their biggest mistake. They should, well, 50:39 it's hard to say which mistake is the biggest, but my view is. 50:44 Well, proof of work is really ridiculous because, well, 50:48 whoever is writing what the POW needs, needs, sorry, 50:52 the proof of stake is ridiculous rather because they're writing the protocols on 50:58 what the, on what, on the, on the staking protocols. So that, 51:02 that can change at any time. The core devs, 51:04 Batella can change that anytime essentially. 51:09 So the staking, how the staking protocols can change, 51:13 and the entire network doesn't necessarily have to agree on those changes, 51:17 unless I'm wrong, but I think that's how it would work. And you, you can, 51:21 you know, you can build private or public layer two networks and, you know, 51:27 mint your own token there, whether it's an ERC20 or 721, 51:31 but still Bitcoin prevails in all of those scenarios because we need a 51:36 consensus amongst all of the miners and all of the network before a change is 51:41 implemented. This, you know, proof of stake, 51:44 a lot of that can occur after the fact, or a lot of the consensus rather can 51:49 occur after the fact. 51:51 Yeah. Proof of work has many cool things. Like you, 51:56 one is it's, 51:57 it's like half of a decentralized exchange out of the box. 52:02 So like you release Bitcoin and then if you can buy power anywhere in the world 52:07 and you're converting electricity into coins, which is, 52:11 that's kind of cool because you know what I mean? It's like, 52:13 there's no one, you know, 52:16 like you have a market where you buy coins with electricity, 52:19 but it's just everywhere. And it's, so that's kind of a neat feature of it. 52:24 But yeah. Do we have anyone who wants to come up? 52:34 Paul, 52:35 someone earlier asked about your advice to a college student, a developer, 52:41 but what would your advice be to a college student from the perspective of an 52:49 investor? Do you still see Bitcoin as the best investment? 52:55 I do. Yeah. For now, 52:58 although I think we're doing everything we can to destroy our lead, 53:03 but I mean I can see it going eventually where like two years from now, 53:10 I would just tell people to just buy like some Ethereum also, 53:15 not because I even like Ethereum, 53:16 but just because they seem focused on growth and I think that only one coin 53:22 will win and the rest will go to zero. 53:25 So it's kind of dangerous when BTC says we don't want adoption, 53:31 which is sort of what I'm hearing everyone in BTC say these days. 53:41 Do you think it's possible that Bitcoin years from now remains like a kind of a 53:52 niche thing or, you know, it's not completely mainstream, but it, 53:56 it does, it maintains a much higher price than today. 54:04 I think that it could stay sort of where it is, 54:11 I think it's very difficult to have a coin be $30,000 if something else has 54:16 taken over the entire world. 54:18 So if there's some other thing and it doesn't even have to be crypto, 54:20 it could be even CBDC or just something that's just something that's just so 54:25 dominant. I think that would be very difficult to imagine, 54:31 but just anything with like something with a fixed supply. 54:34 So anything with a fixed supply that takes over the world, 54:38 then the main advantage of BTC is, you know, 54:43 it's going to be what in that case, you know, privacy or like, 54:48 what do you have keys and you have your own UTXOs? I don't know. 54:53 So I think that'd be tough. 54:57 One common response to that is that, Oh, 54:59 well Bitcoin's different because it had the immaculate conception. 55:04 But, uh, yeah, it's definitely, uh, 55:07 I'm of the opinion now that that's sadly kind of a nonsense response because 55:12 obviously to the seven and a half billion people who don't own... 55:16 Right. It mattered a lot more in the past, 55:19 like in 2009 when you just had Namecoin and you just had Litecoin and they, 55:24 you had these coins that were exact carbon copies of BTC, 55:29 then it kind of mattered a lot more. Okay. 55:31 This is the one that we started with. This is the one that did not pre-mine. 55:36 But if you fast forward, like, like imagine you fast forward 200 years, 55:41 all the Bitcoin has been mined. Like what is, is it still going to matter? 55:44 Someone's going to say, okay, this coin was invented in, 55:47 it wasn't invented in 2009, but it was invented in 2026. 55:52 Like someone at that point is not going to matter. 55:55 So you can see that at least theoretically it does wear out. 56:01 Of course, it's something, uh, 56:02 for hardcore Bitcoiners to understand that from the perspective of somebody 56:08 that's completely, that doesn't own anything, 56:11 any crypto asset today coming into it, 56:15 there's no difference between Bitcoin's immaculate conception and 56:19 Ethereum's 70% pre-mine because they weren't privy to any of it. 56:25 So Bitcoin might've, might as well have been a 70% pre-mine. 56:29 But these people, there's no difference. 56:31 And that's almost all the people on earth. 56:38 Okay. We have a Dallas here. Hello. 56:44 Hey Dallas, this is a funny way to say, um, how are you guys doing? 56:47 Good to see you, Paul. Um, I have a question for you. I, uh, 56:50 haven't been on any, uh, you know, 56:51 let's say last few spaces you guys may have done. 56:54 Obviously we've had a couple interactions before. Do you think, um, 56:57 are there any, you know, 56:59 let's say specific functions within how like the current proposal works or BIP300 57:03 that you, you know, that you've ever kind of considered, Paul? 57:07 Like thinking, okay, Hey, 57:08 maybe this could be a bit more like that or this could be a bit more just, 57:11 or do you do think in its current state it is like basically, 57:17 basically are there any parameters that like you kind of second guess yourself 57:20 on in a way that it's currently, uh, proposed at this moment? 57:23 I'd be generally curious. 57:24 Yeah. The overall design has not changed at all since 2015. 57:30 Uh, 57:31 there is one slight detail that changed around 2017, 57:36 which is about like a, 57:37 but I think I would have always changed that detail as I got more specific. 57:40 So the, but there's one, so that's the overall design is the same, 57:45 but we have actually been tweaking the, 57:48 the underlying details the whole time. And in fact, 57:51 even just in the last three months we sort of switched around exactly the, 57:58 the exact way it counts like deposits and withdrawals, 58:02 um, so to speak. So like, you know, 58:04 like in the code we changed like some details in the code. 58:07 Well, 58:08 part of that is also to make it easier to rebase and pull requests into the 58:12 latest version of Bitcoin core, which is changing all the time. 58:15 So the ossificationists, 58:16 they have a, it's not good right now if you like ossification because there's 58:20 lots and lots of just refactoring and stuff changing in Bitcoin. 58:25 And, uh, so, um, 58:28 that is something to keep in mind. 58:30 But there is one thing that I actually do second guess, 58:33 which is I changed the, the two week, 58:37 it was two to four weeks and I changed it to three to six months because 58:41 people would, 58:43 they wouldn't stop complaining about the miners can steal even though I 58:46 explained why that is not the right criterion because the miners can steal 58:51 from anything and they get the fees and that's the security model. 58:54 So, um, 58:56 so I was thinking I'll make it longer and now I kind of think like what was 59:01 the point? 59:02 Because I don't think those people understood it anyway. 59:04 And even inventing Blind Merged Mining at all, 59:07 even inventing Blind Merged Mining at all, 59:09 you see I still get the effects mining incentives as people like or whatever. 59:15 Peter Todd will still say, Oh, miners are pressured to run notes. 59:18 And this has never been true. 59:20 But I, even with Blind Merged Mining, 59:22 it's 99.999% less true than it was before. 59:27 And, but it doesn't make any difference. 59:28 So to the critics who in the critics don't know anything, 59:32 none of them have read the BIP. 59:33 They, none of them have used the software. 59:35 Peter Todd didn't even know that there was software as a Baltic honey badger 59:39 this year. 59:40 It's been software for like literally like three or four years. 59:43 So I don't, uh, so really I reacted to, I reacted to like, 59:49 what you might call a peer review, 59:50 but the peers didn't know anything about the idea. 59:53 So that, that makes me in retrospect go back and say, Oh, 59:56 should I have listened to them at all? 59:58 Because they clearly had like a very, very, very zero percent understanding of 1:00:04 the idea. So maybe I shouldn't have, but, uh, 1:00:08 overall I think it's fine because I don't want to cut you off. 1:00:14 I was just saying the three to six month thing is fine. 1:00:16 So all the changes I made are fine. 1:00:17 By merge mining basically turns every sidechain node into like a perfectly 1:00:21 decentralized stratum V2 competing pool or whatever. 1:00:26 So it's actually all this stuff is kind of cool, honestly. 1:00:29 So I guess I'm kind of glad that it exists, but, um, 1:00:34 I do second guess it because the whole basis for creating it was the peer 1:00:38 review, but the peers didn't know anything. 1:00:41 So one thing I guess, like it's hard to correct, 1:00:44 because I've spoken to a lot of people who are, you know, 1:00:47 I guess supportive of what the book you guys are going to put forward. 1:00:50 And then also that Bob has spoken to many people who are critical. Um, 1:00:54 I just wonder if there are ways to strengthen the existing design in a way 1:01:01 that could make it harder for miners to basically steal coins. Right. Um, 1:01:07 and I, and I've been, I may be in your view, 1:01:09 it's like not easy for them to do that. Um, 1:01:12 but one thing that I guess wasn't super clear to me, even, 1:01:15 even in like several discussions is kind of, let's say, okay, 1:01:18 you change the parameter that you mentioned from two to four weeks to 1:01:21 something like three to six months. What is actually changed? Like what, 1:01:25 what that timeframe is that a bad actor, 1:01:29 essentially does like everyone gets to see the attack coming now for three to 1:01:32 six months. Yeah. 1:01:33 The first and most of it's an excellent question. And the, 1:01:37 a couple of things changed. The most important is that the, 1:01:42 the responsibility is more tightly focused on the minor. 1:01:47 So they can't say like, Oh, 1:01:48 it was some kind of like mix up or misunderstanding. 1:01:52 Do you know what I mean? Cause if it like happens, 1:01:54 if it's only going for five hours and it happens from 3am to 8am on Saturday 1:02:00 morning or something, you know, and then everyone can be like, Oh, well, 1:02:04 we don't know what happened there. How did that get, 1:02:09 how did that happen? Whereas, um, 1:02:13 if it's really slow then it's deliberate. 1:02:15 So that's one thing that changes. The other is that you, 1:02:19 you have like plenty of time to figure out what the reply is going to be. 1:02:24 Like you have time to like talk things over. Um, 1:02:28 you have time to like say, okay, who, well, 1:02:31 who is doing this and why you hear everyone's like a reason or lack thereof. 1:02:36 And so it's kind of more, it's just more tightly controlled. 1:02:41 So I often give an example of someone like, Oh, 1:02:43 they run into an Apple store and they just grab something off the shelf and 1:02:47 they run to get out the door and they're slowed down. 1:02:50 They're in slow motion and they can't, it takes them three months to leave. 1:02:53 Well, you know, now that it takes them three months to leave, you can, 1:02:56 you could call the police. 1:02:58 You can even call the police and tell them just come tomorrow if they're busy, 1:03:02 you know, or you can call and tell them to come next week and you can, 1:03:06 so it's more respectful of people's attention in general. And, uh, 1:03:09 even if you don't, even if you can't call the police, 1:03:12 you could still have plenty of time to like take their picture and, you know, 1:03:16 they have, they have more, 1:03:18 it's just they have to just do the wrong thing like in public. 1:03:22 So, so what is the initial trigger at which people would say, Hey, 1:03:26 uh, bad actors are trying to do a bad thing. Like, 1:03:29 what would you see that would be bad is happening. 1:03:33 The sidechain is going to recalculate the next withdrawal hash automatically 1:03:39 for everyone at the same time. 1:03:41 So it will automatically determine what the, uh, 1:03:47 it will, it has, uh, it's using the sidechain rules automatically. 1:03:53 It will say, okay, these number of people want to withdraw. 1:03:56 The last withdrawal, either just finished or just failed or something. 1:04:00 So we're ready for the next one. 1:04:02 And it will click that over and it will have a new withdrawal hash. 1:04:06 And that withdrawal hash will be in the bottom ribbon of the GUI. 1:04:10 And it will also be in the block header of every sidechain block. 1:04:13 So it'll be maximally available. The sidechain will be like, 1:04:17 it's like they're holding up a gigantic sign that has this hash on it and they 1:04:24 will be screaming. 1:04:25 And it's going to be repeating it over and over again for the next three 1:04:28 months. They're saying, this is the hash. And now when, 1:04:33 similarly on L1, 1:04:36 when the miners put the right, this hash into the Coinbase on L1, 1:04:41 they'll write it in for that slot sidechain and slot number seven, 1:04:45 they will do that. And then, so as soon as it doesn't match, 1:04:49 every user as a sidechain will know instantaneously what is wrong and that 1:04:54 what should be done about it. So then it just becomes a matter of, 1:04:59 is this an innocent mistake, you know, or is it, 1:05:05 or is it deliberate? And so if it's deliberate, then, then are we, 1:05:11 you know, are we doing, you know, like, are we rugged? 1:05:14 So Paul, wasn't there some sort of real world example where one of these 1:05:19 Ethereum bridges had taken some things, 1:05:22 definitely some inspiration from your design, 1:05:25 but they had changed it to the peg out being a matter of like an hour instead 1:05:31 of three months. And, uh, there was some kind of, um, 1:05:36 open and notorious theft, but nobody figured it out for like, no, 1:05:40 but nobody was paying attention until, until, you know, 1:05:45 six, seven hours later. 1:05:47 And, um, 1:05:48 another thing to keep in mind is that there's really not a lot of 1:05:51 inconvenience by making it slower because regular users will just swap out 1:05:56 instantly and other users will be like professionally patient people. 1:06:01 They'll be basically farming it for yield. 1:06:04 So there'll be buying up the sidechain coins for 99 cents on the dollar or 1:06:09 whatever it is, 98, 99.9, whatever it is. 1:06:12 And then they will be walking them across the withdrawal part. 1:06:17 So, so that's hopefully the answer to your question about, 1:06:23 everyone will know there's a, there's this hash that's, that is, 1:06:26 the sidechain software automatically gives everyone the single correct hash. 1:06:31 So if anything else goes into L1, everyone will know the, 1:06:35 that first instance that it's wrong, 1:06:39 but then there's many people who are not using the sidechain. 1:06:41 They won't know until someone tells them. 1:06:44 So, so the software gives a hash as a single source of truth, 1:06:48 I guess that people would look at and say, okay, this honors, whatever, 1:06:52 like the correct actions being compiled in the correct way. 1:06:55 And if there's even a single transaction, 1:06:57 whether the amounts buried or to a different address or any variation from 1:07:01 that, then there would be a different hash. 1:07:03 And that would be how people would recognize that there's some, 1:07:06 some fuckery afoot. Is that a simple way? 1:07:10 Exactly. 1:07:14 Okay. Yeah, I know. I mean, 1:07:15 one of the things I guess I was saying to you on a different space, 1:07:18 like one of my concerns is still, and this may be a concern, I guess, 1:07:22 almost of almost any or not any, but many other kind of, 1:07:25 let's say sort of sidechain or maybe some potential L2s is like. 1:07:30 You know, like, who is issuing, who is in charge of the current code that runs on that Drivechain? And who can change that? And are users man required to, you know, essentially be brought along with the update happening? 1:07:43 No, they're not. It's a very, very good question. 1:07:45 Yeah, it's a very, very good question. And actually, the logic is the same. It's partially relies on the hash answer question. So, yeah, I'm not sure. 1:07:55 Answer question. So what happens is when you claim the slot, you have an opportunity, and the slot is first assigned, you label the slot, like whatever, Zcash sidechain, but you also are able to put the hash of the full node software. 1:08:14 So there's no literal software being run or hosted anywhere. But you can say, listen, this is the software that you are supposed to run to figure out what the hash should be. We're not going to run it, but this is what it is. 1:08:29 Now, that's like the version 0.1, or whatever, of the sidechain, right? Now, if they release newer versions of the sidechain software, that give the same, in all circumstances, give the same withdrawal hash, then that is basically a soft fork upgrade to the sidechain. 1:08:49 But you notice that they really can't do that. If they give a version, if they update, which is basically a hard fork, they release a version of the software that gives a different withdrawal hash. And since the hashes have to be exactly the same, for anyone to know which withdrawal is real, that is not going to work. 1:09:10 So the users of the sidechain, they inherit the protection of the soft fork inherently, which is a very important point because, of course, they're going to have to be updating the sidechain software all the time. 1:09:24 And as long as they do that in a way that an old node, if you ran the V0.1 node, whose hash was when you first claimed the slot, as long as it's such that running that old node, or OG sidechain node software, will give the same withdrawal hash, then you see it really doesn't matter because the same people who are leaving, if you want to leave and get to L1, it's the same in every version of the software. 1:09:50 So you're never screwed out of your opportunity to escape back to L1. 1:09:58 I have a question on this. If the sidechain wanted to update, sometimes newer software, they might not know later there might be incompatibility. But would the best way be to claim the slot with the new hash of the software and get the 90% vote? 1:10:17 To claim the new slot is 90%. 1:10:21 Not a new slot, but to replace the slot, right? 1:10:24 Yeah, replacing the slot is a very different process, which intentionally requires 50% over six months. So that basically is a withdrawal. And that has to be the case because it's a very severe thing. It's basically stealing all the money from one sidechain and rolling it over to a new sidechain. So that's why it has to be very slow. 1:10:50 So do you think that would be the best way to update software of the sidechain? 1:10:57 The sidechain should do soft forks if it can. And if it can't, it should just release a new sidechain altogether. Because it's being very different. Tryptonomics, you need a hand up, I thought. 1:11:12 Yeah, so with BIP300, essentially, and with Blind Merged Mining, are we going to be able to have Bitcoin as the native token and all these proof of work blockchains and even on Ethereum, theoretically? 1:11:29 I like the idea, yeah. 1:11:31 Yeah, and so I keep trying to tell this to people, and they get violence. And it just makes me more excited about this BIP because, well, all their proof of stake is going to be nothing because what they have staked is not even going to be their native token on their own blockchain. 1:11:48 And so I'm just wondering, how quickly do you think other blockchains are going to adopt this BIP and try to absorb other blockchains the way Bitcoin will? I think one project is doing that. I think it's Doge.net or something like that. 1:12:08 Yeah, SkyDoge. It's very funny. 1:12:11 Yeah, they adopted your BIP and they're already inheriting or absorbing other blockchains by making their native token the native token on other blockchains that want to interact and transfer assets, etc. So I just want to make sure I had that accurate. 1:12:28 Yeah, you have it accurate. And I think one is enough, obviously, but maybe there'll be two. You know what I mean? If there's a race to absorb them, then it'll be kind of a funny situation. 1:12:39 So essentially we could calculate with a formula how quickly other blockchains' native tokens will be devalued and the rate at which they'll be devalued if BIP300 is enacted. 1:12:53 I don't know about with a formula, but I think something along those lines is possible where you merge things and then there's network effects, Metcalfe's law, etc. 1:13:05 Okay. 1:13:07 Okay, we have a Joe. 1:13:09 Hello, Mr. Joe. 1:13:10 Hey, Paul. I was just thinking a little bit about the kinds of complaints you get about DraftChain. This feels like a big compromise, but I think a lot of the complaints go away if the BIP just said only 500 bitcoins can move to a sidechain. 1:13:34 And it'd be enforceable kind of voluntarily, sort of. It would just be part of the soft work. But yeah, I was just wondering, maybe it's just a rhetorical kind of tactic, but it seems to resolve a lot of people's complaints. 1:13:53 That is possible. I think you may be right about that, but I think it's more a problem with the complainers. I mean if you think about it from this point of view, who's bearing the risk of putting the 501st coin into the Drivechain? 1:14:09 So mostly it's the person – I mean you could argue that okay, if too many coins go over there then that's bad somehow for other people. I don't think that makes any sense, but someone could say that I suppose. 1:14:21 But really it's the person who's voluntarily putting the 501st coin in. So shouldn't they – don't we believe in freedom and shouldn't they be able to do that? 1:14:31 Yeah, I agree. I agree, of course. But yeah, I mean I guess in practice it could just be the presumption is that that coin gets stolen, and that's all. So yeah, it violates ideals of freedom and stuff, but it might just be a rhetorical point that's useful. 1:14:53 Well, many people, as you know – I'm sure that you do – many people complain no one wants this idea, and then they flip and they say this idea is going to be so big that it will change and affect everything. 1:15:07 So they have it on both sides, and this is the upper side. They're saying, well, so many coins. This will be so popular. I mean just as a point of comparison, there's only less than 5,000 or somewhere around 5,000 BTC in the Lightning Network. 1:15:23 So 10 Drivechains of 500 each would be the entire Lightning Network today. I don't know. It's an interesting idea. I think though it's just too weird. You know what I mean? 1:15:40 What difference does it make if there's one Drivechain that has 10,000 or 20 that each have 499 or something? Why would that matter? 1:15:53 Oh, totally. Yeah, totally. But I mean if you expose this contradiction, it gets people to – I mean it's kind of like you're arguing it step by step. Here's an improvement. Here's a little tweak. Here's a tweak, and now we have the full thing, and they're all unarguable improvements along the way. But maybe it doesn't actually work that way. But yeah, just something to think about. 1:16:15 Hey, Paul, can I ask you one more question because I've got to run for another call in just a sec? So my understanding is that in the current proposal, there are a limited number of Drivechains that could exist. That's correct, right? 1:16:30 Yes, but it's not a really limited practice because you could have Drivechains of Drivechains, or you could just redo the – you could just activate the 300B, the 300C, and just keep adding spots if you wanted to. 1:16:43 That's interesting. So one question I have is what is the minimum requirement for – like if I want to launch a Drivechain, how does mine be considered one of the limited space of sort of that first layer of ones that could exist? 1:16:58 And is that open to somebody spamming essentially somehow inclusion with let's say one miner allocating a little bit of hash power to it, and then kind of clogging up all of the available kind of initial Drivechains that are just one layer removed from the main chain? Does that make sense? 1:17:15 It does. There is – to avoid that problem, there is a requirement that 90% of the hash rate act over two weeks. So it's kind of like a – it's like very similar to what BIP-9 software activation used to be a long time ago, and it's sort of like speedy trial, like really speedy trial today where you do need 90% very high threshold over a short period of time. 1:17:42 So anyone can – any miner can just propose the slot. This is called message M1 in the BIP. These are M1 and M2. There are six messages, M1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. So M1 you just broadcast in a coinbase and you just say this is what I do. 1:17:59 I want the slot, but then if you don't have enough M2 acts of that, it will just not claim the slot. So yeah, there is like a DOS. 1:18:12 Well, the first thing you said 90% of what? 1:18:15 90% of the following 2016 blocks must have this M2 to back it up. So you need one M1 and then you need many M2s in the – 1:18:28 Could a miner's hash rate – is it sort of double counted? Like if I've got whatever, like just some amount of hash rate and I want to somehow – let's say support 10 different drivechains. 1:18:41 Can I bring an equivalent amount to each of those or am I splitting it and not able to carry a Drivechain to Drivechains? 1:18:48 It's only to turn it on at the very beginning. So you do the one M1 and then you have M2, you ACK it, and then you could do – you propose one. 1:18:57 So like block 300,000 or whatever it is, block 900,000, that one has an M1 to claim sidechain slot 3 to make a Zcash sidechain. 1:19:10 And then next block 900,001, you have an M2 message that ACKs the previous M1, acknowledges, thumbs it up. 1:19:21 And you can also then – you put an M1 that you say I want to claim sidechain slot 4 to make the EVM sidechain. 1:19:28 And then in the next block, 900,002, you say, okay, I have an M2 for each of those and now you're claiming two at once. So they're separable. 1:19:42 Does that make sense? 1:19:44 Yeah, I think that that does. I wish I had a bit more time with you guys. If you're going to be on for a while, I'll come back, but I've got to jump on a call. 1:19:52 But thank you guys for your time. 1:19:54 I don't think I'm going to come back much later, but there's always Twitter and there's always next week. 1:19:59 Next week we should maybe do – next week maybe we can go $48 – no, I'm just kidding. 1:20:05 We should have you and Shinobi fight with your shirts off. 1:20:08 Yeah, that should be how BIP activates. It would be like whatever. It would be like – what's the movie? Black Panther? That's BIP activation. BIP Panther. 1:20:21 Somebody make that meme. Get on it. 1:20:28 Cool. See you guys. Have a good one. 1:20:31 Thanks. See you. 1:20:33 Paul, do you mind maybe talking about mining machines? Or is that a bit too far off topic? But I mean, if you connect them and relate them to Drivechains, maybe. 1:20:44 If no one else comes up and no one else wants to say anything, then we can talk about whatever. Do you want to talk about the mining, the hasher machines themselves? 1:20:53 Yes. 1:20:55 What do you want to know about them? 1:20:57 Just kind of where the state of the art is in terms of mining and if Drivechains will change hardware and its relation to – 1:21:09 I don't think they will. What they do, the miners, their goal is to produce a SHA-356 hash as quickly and smoothly as possible. And they don't necessarily have any interaction with the software. 1:21:25 It's very interesting about miners is they are like a race and breed apart. They are like this part of Bitcoin that is its own orbit. 1:21:33 And they all hang out with each other and then they rarely mix, very rarely mix with the rest of Bitcoin. 1:21:39 And it's a very intriguing situation because the miners are the ones who have a huge amount of skin in the game. 1:21:45 They are punished horribly when the transaction fees and the usage of the network goes down and they are rewarded when it goes up and they are punished when the price goes down and they are rewarded when the price goes up. 1:21:57 So they are – they have all the skin in the game and yet there is an attitude in Bitcoin that miners should stay out of decisions that affect Bitcoin, which is kind of – has a little bit of an amusing quality because who are these other people to say that they should – like what's going on here? 1:22:24 Exactly how this – and this has been the source of various drama and controversy for many years, absolutely since 2005, 2015, excuse me, 2015. 1:22:35 So yeah, but I think though what would change is that miners would become responsible collectively for choosing which sidechains are inside the Bitcoin portfolio. 1:22:48 Like you drop ad and they are – but they have an incentive to get that right. 1:22:58 Again, if they choose wisely, the transaction fees will be maximized. 1:23:03 The price of Bitcoin will be maximized. 1:23:05 If they choose poorly then they will be the ones who suffer. 1:23:10 So, but it shouldn't change the actual – the people designing ASICs and what not and people who are designing mining facilities, their job is just to do this thermodynamic hashing as efficiently as possible. 1:23:41 So is the solution to the controversy going to be some sort of automation? 1:23:49 What do you mean by controversy? 1:23:51 I guess a higher form of automation. 1:23:55 The controversy you referenced with miners not having – you said that miners have a lot of skin in the game, right, and that they have too much power and they are not exercising that power. 1:24:14 Yeah, miners culturally have decided that they want – weirdly they are the paradox. 1:24:22 They are exercising the power because what they have decided is that a lot of developers are working on Bitcoin. 1:24:29 The developers don't want to be bothered by miners. 1:24:32 So the miners therefore are not bothering them, the developers. 1:24:36 So the miners are doing what they think maximizes the value of Bitcoin. 1:24:42 And on the whole who can complain, of course, because on the whole it has been the best performing asset financially in the history of capitalism. 1:24:53 But over the last five years or six years, five years I suppose, over the last five years it really has not done net as well as it did the previous eight years to say the least. 1:25:08 And then of course the difficulty is adjusting every two weeks and that has put miners in a rough spot around now. 1:25:16 And of course with the halving coming up, their revenue will be cut in half. 1:25:20 And so I think they are now – I also think like Taproot came out and it wasn't used at all the way the developers intended. 1:25:30 And Taproot Assets really has nothing to do – not very much to do with Taproot. 1:25:35 But it – it's more to do a SegWit, but the point of it being this gave the miners a taste of what would happen when – so you know what I mean? 1:25:49 Like the Taproot Ordinals people, they are the real developers who are working for the miners because they give the miners more money. 1:25:58 So the miners are kind of like slightly have been woke you could say. 1:26:04 They're like, wait a minute, we had from August 2017 to present, we've only had Taproot which has not helped. 1:26:15 And – but yet this Ordinals thing helped to make money. 1:26:19 So I think they are slightly more – they've been disturbed from their slumber I think is my guess. 1:26:25 It's very hard to say such things though. 1:26:26 So Paul, the history of SegWit adoption is pretty well documented or relatively well documented. 1:26:40 But why was it that in that whole time that Taproot was the only BIP to be merged? 1:26:49 What were the kind of the politics behind that? 1:26:52 I think in general people did not want to like propose any BIP or do anything. 1:27:03 But Greg Maxwell in January I think 2018, there was a lot of – like there was this mast idea. 1:27:11 There was Schnorr signatures. 1:27:13 That was always very popular. 1:27:15 Weirdly, a weird thing was that Bitcoin Cash was adding Schnorr. 1:27:19 That's kind of a funny thing that they did it for first. 1:27:23 I don't think that was why but I think this idea was more lightning focused. 1:27:30 Taproot was more lightning focused because it made a cooperative close. 1:27:35 It made lots of things look like a regular Bitcoin transaction even if they weren't or at least that's its aspirational goal. 1:27:44 And so this was seen as further standardizing lightning I think. 1:27:51 So it was still firing on all cylinders for lightning. 1:27:56 And I think that in general though what happened was everyone was afraid to push any soft fork including this one. 1:28:04 And this just happened to be one that Greg Maxwell, Peter Weil, other people had worked on. 1:28:10 So it had enough prestige to very, very slowly make it slowly from 2018 over three years to November, really four years, 46 months or so. 1:28:25 Slowly make it across the finish line. 1:28:28 In general, I think the focus would definitely have been like the Bitcoin Cash people are gone. 1:28:43 We won. We'll keep doing what we're doing. 1:28:46 I think part of it was of course that SegWit2x was resisting a change and that Ethereum was being more experimental. 1:28:55 So it just made everyone want to be more conservative in BTC is my guess. 1:29:03 We have Sheldon Deer. Hello. 1:29:08 Hello. 1:29:10 How are you doing? 1:29:12 I'm doing pretty well. 1:29:14 I'm getting back to the South Florida area pretty soon but I'm in Malaysia right now just staying up unreasonably late. 1:29:23 But I realized that I think I forgot to ask you this question or if I asked you this a while back I forgot the answer. 1:29:32 Because I live in shitcoin land most of the time I hear a lot of aspirational things about three cryptographic values or five cryptographic values in a circuit and all of this proofs stuff that's all moderately young and untested. 1:29:53 I used to see that as sort of the path that I thought would be more acceptable for people to store data on Bitcoin because I love Bitcoin as a source of truth. 1:30:04 But I wonder do you have like a sort of standard position when someone criticizes the use of HTLCs or is more interested in things like abstraction or just like hash of hash kind of silliness. 1:30:20 Is there a way that I can convince more people because I do get folks on my side of the wall looking at BIP300/301 frequently. 1:30:30 Is there something I can focus on that will help them understand the security value the integration value instead of focusing on the next cool zero knowledge whatever buzzword kind of thing. 1:30:45 Like syscoin was my comparison before I learned about drivechains. 1:30:53 Yes syscoin is an interesting coin. 1:30:56 I think people do they definitely want like a buzzword thing which is tough because you never know what percentage of the people in this food chain are even being honest. 1:31:10 You know what I mean like so there's sometimes there's a coin that's a complete scam and they just say we are going to be the X coin and we are going to do X. 1:31:19 And then the promoters know that that's false but they show it anyway and then they are shilling it and so then they dump on retail and then the scam is over. 1:31:31 But sometimes something is pretty real like sort of like Monero being a privacy. 1:31:36 Monero is like we are going to be the privacy coin. 1:31:39 Bitcoin is not focused as much on doing this like quickly and rapidly. 1:31:45 Monero is willing to hard fork every six months. 1:31:48 So Monero is doing that XMR and so the promoters seem relatively honest also. 1:31:56 But there's a mix of everything in between and it's very tough when as you say someone has the buzzword. 1:32:03 It's like do they even really like am I being scammed? 1:32:06 Am I scamming myself by paying attention to this? 1:32:10 Am I scamming myself by researching it and then I'm going to write like a carefully worded response. 1:32:16 But really everyone knows that it's fake and I'm just the most gullible person in the room. 1:32:20 And so it's very treacherous out there. 1:32:25 Of course we even do this in Bitcoin. 1:32:27 Of course we have many things we say that. 1:32:29 Aren't true or people it's like do people know they're not true or so I think it's probably the case with literally every industry. I'm sure I knew someone who was a home there were like a contractor that did like home repair modeling energy efficiency stuff and constantly this guy and this guy was a very smart guy and he would constantly say oh this industry is the worst. Everyone in this industry is dishonest. Everyone's scamming everyone and I was like oh it's just like this. It's just like this. It's just like this. It's just like this. It's just like this. It's just like this. It's just like this. 1:32:56 It's just like the crypto Bitcoin industry. And they're like oh OK you know whatever. So I don't know if that answers your question but that's my first thought. Does that help at all. 1:33:11 No but it reminds me of me laughing at the acronym ZTNA because in IT security the idea that you could sell someone a product or a service based specifically on the implementation of best practices and software level security controls is very funny to me. 1:33:27 But no I tend to be less rambly and whining about it. Is there any part of the BIPs that you would refer to if someone was sort of like you know questioning the security value versus the you know performant values of the two BIPs that make up Drivechains. 1:33:46 The security value versus the performant value. Well it's the security. It has to be understood the right way which is to my dismay most people do not understand it. But if you go into my tweet highlights I reply to Tidwell and if you go also on drivechain.info there's like an article section but there's this idea that it's an economic security where the miners are supposed to be comparing what is the transaction fees they're getting to how many coins they're getting. 1:34:15 To how many coins they can steal. And the cool thing is you can deposit like one Bitcoin into Drivechain and then it can be circulating a ton and the whole Bitcoin can be eaten up like you get like a million users use it a million times each person is going to pay whatever that would come out to be a hundred sats or something. Don't hold me to that math but I think that's right. 1:34:41 So and they're going to do that and then within 24 hours the whole coin will be used up which is to say it will have incrementally like grains of sand falling through an hourglass. It will incrementally be owned by whoever's mining the sidechain blocks over there which because of Blind Merged Mining could be itself a user. 1:35:02 So the point I'm trying to make is you can have a desert island where there's one dollar but the dollar can circulate so much that it can be used in every transaction. And so a one dollar could have one dollar a day of transaction fees or it could have a million dollars a day or 10 billion dollars a day of transaction fees. 1:35:23 So the security model is just that the fees that the miners are earning outweighs what they could steal. And it could be anyway you know that could happen that could that could that breakdown could be anyway someone could put a hundred thousand bitcoins into a sidechain that is never used and has zero fees. 1:35:39 And so it's a kind of a tricky thing. The security is unusual and apparently apparently it's very I mean to me it's not that weird at all. It's really just like a this greater than that type of a thing like net present value greater than some like stock versus low type of a thing. 1:35:57 It's not that weird but apparently just judging on by the reaction this is like a mind blowingly revolutionary type of security. And so people have very strong opinions about it. 1:36:10 So that would be step one would be to frame the security the right way. And if you go to my tweets and you go to highlights and you find the answer of the Tidwell it's in there and I answer I'll try to reply to all of the. 1:36:24 But yeah like a theorem has seven point two million. Whenever back when I did the math to answer his question it had seven million dollars of fees per day and that just comes out to like a hundred thousand or even a million coins depending on some parameters comes out to hundreds of thousands of coins could be safely stored where the fees would be greater than the coin amount. 1:36:50 So I don't know that sort of rambly but hopefully that is no closer to helping us. 1:36:56 That helps a lot. Yeah I'm very familiar with economic security from my side of the wall but it's a lot easier when you're linking to real numbers about active blocks being produced blah blah blah. 1:37:08 Yeah so you can probably look that up and it's hopefully it will help you because there's only I have the highlights are great and there's only about I would say like 15 16 of them. 1:37:22 So even though they're all long I highly recommend anyone check out the my Twitter highlights because a lot of these questions I've been asked many times before. 1:37:33 Yeah sorry about that. I appreciate you saving me the time. Maybe I'll see you around breakfast and brunch but I'll go catch up again. 1:37:41 I'll call you. See you there. 1:37:44 OK. Joe has a hand. Hello again Joe. 1:37:49 Hey yeah. Just one thing to throw out there. Whenever I hear people talking about security I just get very my ears perk up because I think the difficulty with advocating for transactions that nobody is willing to define it. 1:38:05 And I've pointed out before and a lot of people pointed out before that like the subsidy doesn't obviously add to Bitcoin security. 1:38:13 On the other hand like you know any miners at any time can just censor your coins. 1:38:20 And if they can coordinate well they could you know it's hard. Like they could just basically what would you call it just a ransom your coins. 1:38:29 I know. So I was just thinking about applying that to like if people are OK with multi six that are like federated sidechains then you know it's it seems like they're also vulnerable to miners coordinating to ransoming them in the same way that they could with Drivechains. 1:38:50 So it seems to help the kind of argument. So that's just one kind of point. 1:38:54 And then the other one is like I'd love it if maybe you can write like a post describing security in blockchains. 1:39:04 Like I've tweeted some ideas about it but it just seems so obviously confusing like you know there's no fundamental security from somebody forking your coin for like forking Bitcoin and taking your coins. 1:39:19 So with respect to that new blockchain they create I have no security. 1:39:23 I have written two things. One is the security budget. The two security budget articles which are about because there's two different things. 1:39:31 There's the cost of one I wrote in September 2015. I wrote this post measuring decentralization and that is about the cost of spinning up a new full node which is basically the cost of the cell dividing. 1:39:46 And it's like you have a full node and how can you get a new full node. And the lower this is the easier it is for the network to just regenerate if like 90 percent of the nodes are destroyed or if you are on the run and you need a new node. 1:39:58 So I wrote that and then I wrote that's the cost. That's like how decentralized the network is and how easy it is to run node. 1:40:10 And now it has dollar amounts and that one has it's like what happened. How do you handle like hard fork or whatever. 1:40:16 Things like that. And then the second type of thing that I wrote is this about the security budget which is just the total amount of money paid to miners which is that each transaction fee is added up. 1:40:30 It's like a strength in numbers thing where each one is goes all that sum total of that money is paid to miners and the harder they work the more proof of work there is on each block header. 1:40:46 So if you have lots of transactions that pay a high fee then all of the transactions the proof of work goes up on them all. 1:40:55 But if you only have a blockchain where there's only three transactions and they pay a tiny fee then all three of them has small proof of work and so the higher the security budget is the more proof of work there is. 1:41:07 If the security budget falls to like zero then there basically is no proof of work in the blockchain. So those are some things that I have written about. 1:41:16 Yeah I think the direction and the measuring decentralization was really great. And I think the more you think about it the more obvious that becomes like we want it cheap to coordinate on which is the right chain. 1:41:30 So that would be you know cost of running a node that makes a lot of sense. 1:41:34 The cost of checking the entire blockchain for errors which is also key. 1:41:41 And I think it's helpful to reinterpret inflation as a small amount of theft happening continuously, small amount of insecurity happening continuously. 1:41:53 Not just in this case but everywhere. It's the inflation that you tax on the holder of the currency. 1:42:01 That's right. And there's not a whole lot of you know if you're risk neutral there's not a whole lot of difference between losing 1% every year and then having a 1% chance of losing everything every year. 1:42:11 So it would be nice to have a kind of a framework that we can all agree to on this. 1:42:20 And then to obviously point out to push back against Peter Todd that the adding subsidy you were talking about transaction fees before very correctly. 1:42:30 But the subsidy that's given to the miners no matter what chain they mine. 1:42:35 Right that wouldn't help that much. That wouldn't help if they wanted to censor for example or if they wanted to just hold people hostage. 1:42:45 Exactly. And there are different types of tax. 1:42:47 I think he's trying to be contrarian with his tail. He's like oh I'm so edgy I'll break even the 21 million coin limit I don't even think it. 1:42:56 I'm not even sure it's a clear thing. I don't really know what he's talking about. 1:43:03 There's differential equations about it like surprisingly tail emission is not inflationary which is like an absurd abuse of the math which basically just says that it will be inflationary for like hundreds of years and then eventually if some percentage of people lose it. 1:43:23 It's a very bizarre interpretation of whatever he's saying. So I don't even know what he's doing. I think it's kind of a performance. 1:43:29 I want to add something to the way I understand the security of Drivechains and you can correct me if I'm wrong. 1:43:35 I try to like zoom out a little bit and basically if somebody sends me Bitcoin I'm at risk of those Bitcoin getting reorg with a 51 percent attack. 1:43:47 I have no idea if miners for one reason or another will just reorg any Bitcoin that I'm receiving. 1:43:52 So I'm assuming that at least 50 percent are being honest. And from my understanding that's the assumption of the security of Bitcoin that more than 50 percent of the hash rate would be honest. 1:44:02 And there's an economic incentive for them to be honest. I think the white paper talks about that too. 1:44:08 So I think the Drivechain is pretty much the exact same assumption where you're assuming at least 50 percent of the network is going to be honest. 1:44:14 And as long as at least 50 percent is honest then they cannot steal from the Drivechain then. 1:44:19 So the way I understand it it's almost like the exact same security assumption that Bitcoin already has. 1:44:24 It basically is. I mean it's kind of the literal assumption is 50 percent is not conspiring to attack the network. 1:44:32 So that's the same assumption. And then with Drivechain it's kind of like you have slightly more of an ability to direct the funds. 1:44:41 But that's also why it's just limited to this extremely slow one check in per three months. 1:44:50 So that has many important effects. Someone asked about that earlier. 1:44:56 But one additional effect it has is that you have to pre-commit on day one. You have to say where you will send the funds. 1:45:04 But because of just variations in hash rate over the three months people may and of course miners may leave the coalition and mine a different coin or something. 1:45:19 So what I'm trying to say is they declare the destination on day one but over three months the pie chart can change as to whose hash rate is going where or whether or not it's all being. 1:45:30 So this is kind of like actually be more secure than just the base layer because the base layer in three blocks whereas on a Drivechain to get stolen from it's way more than three blocks. 1:45:41 Yes it's comparable to like literally like a 13000 block reorg. 1:45:46 Basically that's the way I'm looking at it. It's 13000 reorg on the base layer. 1:45:52 So on one sense the miners do have an ability to direct the funds more directly even though this is also limited as I've said because they have to kind of divide it amongst themselves. 1:46:06 And they don't really know exactly how because they don't know what will happen over the three months that they're doing this. 1:46:11 New miners could show up. Some miners could quit. So they have slightly more impact but then they have all these downsides. 1:46:19 So I think it actually comes out to be a wash or better and then when you throw in the whole fees thing then I think it looks just fine. 1:46:28 I think that the fees thing is the most important part because that's the economic incentive that's keeping them honest. 1:46:37 Because if you were to say that there was steal from a Drivechain then one can say well then good that Drivechain according to the free market is not a good Drivechain. 1:46:46 Right. And this is the other thing that people didn't really understand even though I tried to explain it in detail in 2016 which is that since the chains can be very complicated and they can have what we would today call cross chain MEV but what had no name back then. 1:47:02 I called it destructive sidechain interference. 1:47:05 But since the sidechains could interfere with each other you wanted a way to pull the plug on some in fact because it's theoretically possible to write one that was very mean spirited. 1:47:15 And so you'd say well if this one is no good we just want to pull the plug on it. 1:47:19 So I actually solved the problem of what today would be called cross chain MEV back in May 2016 with a presentation I did called sidechain privatization. 1:47:29 Which basically says that miners… 1:47:32 I watched those videos. By the way they're really good videos on your YouTube. The sidechain privatization and the minor risks as well. 1:47:41 Yeah I'm glad you liked them. I enjoyed making them. 1:47:47 Anyway it seems like you understand it very well. 1:47:51 Thank you. If I may ask I know that in one of your videos you said you wanted to make videos on the Blind Merged Mining but you didn't have time. Maybe if you do have time you can make that series of Blind Merged Mining. 1:48:02 You know if you go to LayerTwoLabs.com we have some infographics and the Blind Merged Mining one there's one if you click and that one came out really well. I think it did anyway. 1:48:15 So maybe we'll post it by itself as a tweet but that's a good one right there. And then if you just… the BIP itself the text is not so bad especially after I added this table. 1:48:26 I added this table of what happens. And I think the table was… 1:48:32 I think I understand it abstractly but I just really enjoyed the several hour videos of you explaining the other parts. That's why I thought if you were to explain that part in a similar way… 1:48:42 I kind of am vaguely remembering it now that I actually had the slides and I was like this video is just too long and I kind of skipped through them all. And they had slides with like pink transparent rectangles and stuff. And I was like I don't have time for this. 1:48:56 I just go back and just do those slides again. That's kind of funny. But that video ended up being like whatever like five hours or something. So that's kind of funny. 1:49:04 Yeah, thanks. Just wanted to add my understanding of the security of drivechains. 1:49:14 Cool. Okay, great. I think I will have to go soon. I have a busy day this particular day. 1:49:33 But I think next week we may be able to go for a bajillion hours if people are still interested in these spaces. I hope they are. I think they're going very well. 1:49:47 So I like that. But if you really want to say something then please come up now. And then don't complain later like oh. Because here's your chance. 1:50:04 Yeah, I would say thank you for these spaces. Have a good weekend. But I really enjoy these spaces. Especially last week. I listened over. I really enjoy new people coming up and just asking completely new questions. 1:50:17 Just like the base, base, base questions. Completely newbie questions. I think that helps a lot of people that might just join. Even though they've been asked it a million times. 1:50:26 Sometimes to a certain person you might say it differently and it might resonate with others. 1:50:30 Yeah, I think that's good. I mean on the one hand there's like the RT FM or whatever and there's an FAQ and there's a site, there's a project site. But on the other hand it's like, you know, it's a new idea. 1:50:43 Yeah, just being able to come over here and like to talk to people is just powerful, you know. And to ask your regular simple question and have somebody here that will answer you. That's good. 1:50:53 We don't seem to be having very many takers. I will give it until 3 p.m. Eastern time. But yeah, I think the spaces have been going well. They were sort of slow before then dramatically ramped up. And then, oh, we have a Greg. Hello. 1:51:15 As this often happens when the speaker comes up, they get delayed like 20 seconds. So then I say they're up, but they're not really up until around now. 1:51:36 Greg, you're muted. Maybe you can unmute yourself. 1:51:39 Yeah. 1:51:40 Okay. Here I am. Here I am. Here I am. I'm sorry. Okay. Now I'm okay. It defaults to mute. I didn't know that. So I have two questions. One question is, it sounds to me what I've heard described today is that there's a potential winner-take-all scenario whereby a Drivechain, if successful, is going to be a winner-take-all. 1:52:05 And grows to mass adoption could eat all of the execution activity on top of Ethereum. Is that correct? 1:52:15 Yes, of course. I think you understand it very well. I remember it from last week. Yeah, that's the whole idea. This was always the plan from 2015. This was considered an uncontroversial and very, very good thing back then. 1:52:30 Yeah, so that's a very interesting concept, and not that I advocate for it, but I don't want to bet against it. I'm just – it's interesting to understand. 1:52:44 The other question I have is, if that were to happen, would Drivechain activity somehow – well, first of all, if you make the assumption that there's a security budget dilemma as we go through multiple halvings and the issuance rewards continue to reduce and the price fails to double every halving, and the fees don't go up, 1:53:14 then mathematically there's a security budget deficit, which is controversial, but just assuming that it's the case, can Drivechains be a solution to that? 1:53:27 Yes, and in fact, I've written in detail about this. I have a security budget to low fees and merged mining, and I think the merged mining fees will be – I mean, ultimately, in 10 or 20 years, they could be 10,000 times or even higher the L1 fees, and all that goes to the L1 miners. 1:53:53 So I have all that in this giant post that I wrote that I'll retweet or something. But yeah, I wrote all about all of that, about the fees are not up, and I say even if the price of Bitcoin reaches its highest possible value, that may not be enough. 1:54:14 It won't be. It won't. Ultimately, it cannot double every four years indefinitely because in not too long a period of time, it exceeds the global monetary supply. 1:54:25 Yeah, I know. Not a lot of people have done that math. 1:54:28 You can't. It's not math. Yeah, it's not mathematically possible, and exponential growth increases obviously, doubles every – it's an astounding… 1:54:39 It doesn't necessarily have to be much, much higher than the GDP of the entire world of one week or something, which is like… 1:54:45 That's only 20 years from now. What people don't realize is that exponential growth is much quicker than they envision. 1:54:54 It's the same thing as the growth of the price of Bitcoin. It grew exponentially, and it's the same thing that would happen to a miner subsidy deficit. 1:55:04 It goes – well, put it this way. If it doesn't double every four years, but in the 2040s, we're going to have a problem. 1:55:15 That's 20 years from now. We're going to have a serious problem. 1:55:18 So the price has to double every four years, or fees have to go from 1 to 2 percent all the way up to 90 percent, or something else has to happen. 1:55:27 There's a number of solutions. There are a number of ideas, but the problem that I see is that the Bitcoin maxis, not to disparage them, but they resist all of it. 1:55:36 They do. So I think if you search Truthcoin and then security budget in the long run, I think you should find my February 2019 post. 1:55:45 And then once you're on my site, you could probably find the other post, the archive. 1:55:50 But the first post is a little shorter, and in that post, I assume that coin reaches – it reaches the value of all M2 money immediately and then grows at that combined rate. 1:56:02 So I have it at $20, $30, $40 million a coin, and I do the math out about that. It's a vanishingly small – even with the halvings, it's a vanishingly small percent. 1:56:15 The market cap would be very, very small, but then I just write if we only absorbed – if we only had a payment sidechain that just did what Visa's numbers were and growing at the rate that Visa's numbers grow, it would actually be an ever-growing percentage of its own market cap. 1:56:34 And it would make the miners whole. My main concern is can the miners stay in business? 1:56:40 Right. 1:56:42 Well, and it's also – it's not about hash rate. It's about the cost of attacking the network versus the market cap of the network. 1:56:48 It's not the hash rate. It's the cost to reproduce 51 percent of the hash rate. It's not the number of hashes. 1:56:55 The hash rate unfortunately is conflated by changes in ASIC technology, which is a pretty straightforward point, but a lot of people just – they really – they like that whole thermodynamic angle, so they're very gung-ho about that. 1:57:08 Right, but will they stop thinking about it once they reach a rationalization or an answer that may not be deep enough? 1:57:18 Okay, so I'm asking these questions because I've been trying to see a future for the security budget for a long time, and I'm a Bitcoin investor. 1:57:28 I'm just trying to look at the long term of how is it going to survive if fees don't grow. 1:57:37 Yeah, so I think you should check out my cool – I wrote a huge – like in enormous depth. 1:57:42 This first article is pretty short, and the second one is very long, and I go into enormous detail of graphs and everything, of numbers. 1:57:51 What about centralization? Is Drivechain – what's the short answer to – is it part of the controversy that it's considered to be too centralized, and if so – 1:58:01 Yeah, I think this is a mistake. People have confused a lot of different things, but I happen to also have written an essay, which was very, very popular with the mainstream back in 2015 when I wrote it called Measuring Decentralization, and that is about the cost of running an L1 full node. 1:58:17 But that is exactly what – if 300 and 301 do not change that at all. In fact, they allow it to shrink the layer one block size, making it cheaper to run a full node, but that's besides the point. 1:58:28 The point is you don't have to run an L1 full node. You don't need to run any of the sidechains. That's the whole point. 1:58:35 And so it doesn't affect centralization at all, and then people have this invented category of decentralization, which turns out to mean a lot of different things at once depending on who you're talking to. 1:58:47 But I have – believe it or not, on Truthcoin.info, I have essays about all that as well from January 2017. 1:58:54 Okay, and how far away is this from going from a proposal to something that's being implemented? 1:59:04 We have the software already. In fact, we're going to release a new version of the software basically today. 1:59:10 But if you go to drivechain.info slash releases, you can see a lot of the software, but you won't even see all of it. 1:59:16 We have a new thing. We have this new thing that's like a Steam launcher, and it's like – so I've neglected even to put up the standalone. 1:59:24 So basically the short answer, though, is if we actually activated BIP300 tomorrow, which is not necessarily possible because of the way software rebasing and whatever, but just hypothetically, if that were magically the case, 1:59:38 we could turn on the large block payment sidechain and Zcash sidechain and the EVM emulating sidechain tomorrow. 1:59:47 And so with the EVM sidechain, any – 1:59:51 It's a copy of Ethereum. 1:59:53 It's a perfect copy of Ethereum. You're using Bitcoin as the – to replace gas fees, you're paying Bitcoin. 2:00:03 Yeah, because basically instead of Gway or whatever, there's just – 2:00:08 Right, right. 2:00:09 And so – and there's also – there's no proof of stake, of course, as merge mining instead of – but other than that, it's exactly the same. 2:00:16 Yeah, well, you're not going to get a lot of Ethereum people supporting this. 2:00:20 Well, I kind of think some of them are the whatever, the Anon FUD people. 2:00:27 Right. 2:00:28 I think some of them actually are Bitcoiners, and they just use Ethereum because it has a use case that Bitcoin doesn't have. 2:00:34 Right. 2:00:35 And they would love to be able to do it on Bitcoin, like, for example, me. 2:00:38 Yeah, when I say you're not going to get their support, I happen to be both. 2:00:41 But I don't take a side. I think it's like putting your head in the sand to take a side. 2:00:46 I continue to explore the negatives on both so that I can make a good long-term commitment. 2:00:52 So if I ignore it, it's still going to happen. 2:00:55 So whatever happens is still going to happen regardless of what I say or do. 2:00:59 So I just look at both sides, and that's why I'm asking these questions. 2:01:04 And I'm glad to hear all this. 2:01:07 I hope this starts to get more traction because, frankly, I've been rather concerned about Bitcoin being useful and Bitcoin having a security budget. 2:01:16 And this addresses both of those things. 2:01:21 Sounds good. 2:01:22 Yeah, unfortunately, people have staked out various narratives, I think. 2:01:26 I mean, it's hard to say, but some people have staked out narratives like Bitcoin doesn't need to be useful. 2:01:31 It's already going to win. 2:01:33 And now when we say, well, we can make it useful, it's kind of like this is a weird dissonance. 2:01:38 Well, that may be true, but it's not useful for transactions. 2:01:45 It's obviously not winning as money in my opinion. 2:01:49 Well, how you define money as currency is for day-to-day transactions. 2:01:54 I don't see that. 2:01:55 It's not winning that. 2:01:57 So store value maybe. 2:02:00 I think I got cut off. 2:02:02 No, you're still here, but I was just thinking I have to go soon, so maybe we can go to John 13%. 2:02:08 That's it. 2:02:09 What's that? 2:02:10 Everyone can hang out without me just because I have to leave, of course. 2:02:12 That's okay. 2:02:13 John 13% is up. 2:02:15 Okay, cool. 2:02:16 Great. 2:02:17 Thanks. 2:02:18 See you next time. 2:02:19 Okay. 2:02:20 Hi, what's up, Paul? 2:02:22 What's up, everybody? 2:02:24 Hello. 2:02:25 So I have a question to know if I'm true on this statement or not. 2:02:31 I put down there in the comments that the thing is that UTXOs on Bitcoin blockchain is going up absurdly. 2:02:45 I put there Leo Half. 2:02:48 He says that it's going up to 4.5 gigabytes. 2:02:55 And in the past 10 years, it was only 1.68 gigabytes. 2:03:04 And this compromised the nodes because we need small-sized nodes. 2:03:12 And I want to know if Drivechains actually solve this problem of making UTXOs not bloat. 2:03:25 Because I think the problem is the originals that's making this UTXOs going so bigger in size. 2:03:37 It's not easy for me to understand what you're asking about there. 2:03:41 I think I understand. 2:03:43 He's saying the UTXO set is growing a lot because of like these BRC20 and inscriptions. 2:03:47 They're doing a lot of dust 330 SAT outputs. 2:03:51 And I would say that Drivechains does help solve this because you can actually reduce the block size then. 2:03:56 And you would have less UTXO creation. 2:04:00 Yes, small rate of growth. 2:04:01 Exactly. 2:04:02 Yes. 2:04:04 To its own chain, which would be better for everyone because they get their own chain that they like. 2:04:10 They can specialize it for having images and inscriptions and trading. 2:04:16 They can have their own stuff over there. 2:04:18 And then on L1, it can only be for settlement among these many chains. 2:04:23 It gets the graffiti out of there. 2:04:30 Well, I think the only thing that would really disincentivize them is actual cost. 2:04:36 So most likely you would just price them out with smaller blocks. 2:04:40 So I definitely think Drivechains can help this because you can then reduce the block size, which would hopefully then increase the cost to do this. 2:04:50 And less people would do it. 2:04:56 Nice. 2:04:57 That was the doubt that I had if I was right on this statement. 2:05:03 So, yeah. 2:05:04 Thanks. 2:05:05 That's it. 2:05:11 Okay. 2:05:12 I think I have to leave, but feel free to continue to hang out if you wish. 2:05:19 Okay. 2:05:20 Take care, Paul. 2:05:21 Have a good weekend. 2:05:22 I'll hang out for a little bit. 2:05:23 Cool. 2:05:24 Great. 2:05:25 Okay. 2:05:26 Thank you, everyone, for a great time. 2:05:28 See you guys next time. 2:05:35 Anybody else that wants to come up and ask questions on Drivechains or talk about Drivechains, even basic questions are welcome. 2:05:44 Anybody can come up and ask about any doubts that they have, any concerns that they have, or anything they want to talk about about Drivechains are welcome. 2:05:55 Yeah. 2:05:56 Thanks for bringing me up. 2:05:59 My question is around, and I don't know, yeah, maybe if this question's already been asked, but from a total outsider noob perspective, how would you compare and contrast the Drivechains versus RGB? 2:06:16 Good question. 2:06:17 So, I'm not an expert on everything, but I can try to explain how I understand. 2:06:21 RGB is basically client-side validation. 2:06:25 So, what that means is, I think that the limit there would be that Bitcoin can't really be traded on that side because, like, it's basically, it's locked in the UTXO. 2:06:39 So, then if that UTXO gets unlocked, then how can you trade it on that other layer? 2:06:45 So, I'm not sure if that can really help with this specific use case, where Drivechains would allow basically any other chain or any type of protocol design for Bitcoin, the asset, to be used in that protocol design. 2:06:59 The way Drivechains works is you can think of it as you're locking up Bitcoin on the base layer and you would get issued those Bitcoin on another layer, on a different chain. 2:07:10 And that different chain can be literally anything you want, like Ethereum or any other basically design that's now or in the future. 2:07:17 And then to bring it back, you would need the miners to accept this withdrawal back to the base layer. 2:07:26 Over three months, three to six months, they would need to approve this. 2:07:30 And economically, they would want to approve this because they're generating fees on that sidechain. 2:07:36 So, they would definitely be in the benefit to keep this sidechain alive because they're generating fees from it. 2:07:43 I think that's like a basic way to understand it, but I'm not an expert on RGB. 2:07:47 So, maybe other people know a little bit better about RGB and can compare that with drivechains. 2:07:52 Yeah, I can't speak to it. I've just been thinking about it from the perspective of... 2:08:06 Yeah, the thought process is if you can increase the demand for usefulness of Bitcoin, then more money may accrue. 2:08:21 But I guess the key question is whether or not, from a security budget perspective, it's a question of whether that increased activity ends up with miners or not. 2:08:32 And what you're saying is in the RGB solution or use case, you don't know if those dollars or those satoshis end up accruing to the miners. 2:08:45 I could be wrong, but I think that RGB, you're able to create these new assets and trade them within the RGB network with the scheme that it uses. 2:08:56 But I'm not sure if you can actually trade the Bitcoins within that network because of... 2:09:01 What happens if you just unlock the Bitcoin on the base layer then? 2:09:05 Because it doesn't require any kind of software changes. 2:09:08 So, if that Bitcoin is unlocked on a base layer, then how are you going to be trading it on the other chain or the other layer of the client-side validation? 2:09:18 But I could be wrong. I might just not fully understand how that part works. 2:09:23 As far as the fees, the fees with Drivechains, the way it works is the miners would be Blind Merged Mining. 2:09:33 So, they will be mining as well the hash of a block of the sidechain, of the drivechain. 2:09:41 They're going to include it. And by including it, they're going to be getting paid a fee. 2:09:46 So, on the Drivechain, if the fee for a block is $1,000, somebody will say to a miner on the base layer, 2:09:54 hey, include the hash of this block and I will give you $995 and I'll keep $5 of it. 2:10:00 And somebody else will say, well, I'll give you $996. 2:10:03 And eventually, the equilibrium will be very, very close to whatever the fees are on that Drivechain, on the sidechain. 2:10:13 They're going to go to the base layer miner. 2:10:15 So, most likely all, if not most, but most likely all of the fees of the Drivechain would be going directly to the miners. 2:10:24 But because it's in sort of a reverse auction fashion, it's designed... 2:10:32 You can think of it as a transaction on the base layer. 2:10:36 Right. Yep. 2:10:38 So, yeah, you can just think of it like that. 2:10:40 As far as the base layer miners, they just see a transaction and whoever's paying the most, that's the one that they're going to include. 2:10:47 And as long as it's valid, right, because if they include an invalid transaction, then either it will be just completely ignored 2:10:56 because it's not going to be going forward, that sidechain, because it's not anything to do with that sidechain. 2:11:03 So, then that person that paid the miner just, like, loses. 2:11:06 So, there's no point to that. 2:11:08 So, the only way that the sidechain has validity, from what I understand, is actually anchoring its hashes of its blocks to the base layer. 2:11:16 So, you're just incentivized to actually give the proper blocks. 2:11:22 Got it. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the insight. 2:11:28 Sure. 2:11:30 Yeah, I got kind of a hard question. 2:11:34 If I have one Bitcoin and Drivechain gets activated tomorrow, how many Lamborghinis would I have next week? 2:11:44 None. 2:11:47 Well, I think that's an interesting question because it goes to, like, if these Drivechains that are, like, other chains, would they actually eventually get market cap over those other chains? 2:11:59 So, if you think of, like, let's say Ethereum, if you create an Ethereum Drivechain, like, what is the incentive of people using this Ethereum Drivechain? 2:12:07 They can just continue to use Ethereum where it has network effect and it has already liquidity and, you know, it already has built up liquidity and built up network effect. 2:12:15 So, why would they just move over to Bitcoin? 2:12:17 Well, I think at least some people might move over to Bitcoin. 2:12:20 At least some amount of activity will start to bootstrap on Bitcoin. 2:12:24 And then eventually the activity on Bitcoin will continue to grow just because activity continues to grow on all chains if there's demand for it. 2:12:32 And then eventually I think it will become where there's a certain point where a person will think, well, I can do the exact same thing on Bitcoin and maybe I'll have a little bit less liquidity. 2:12:42 But I could do pretty much the same thing or I can do it on Ethereum. 2:12:45 And then they're going to look at either do it on Bitcoin or Ethereum. 2:12:48 What's the difference then? 2:12:49 Once the activity is enough and there's enough TVL and there's enough liquidity on the Bitcoin Drivechain of Ethereum, then the only thing differentiating them then would just be the actual monetary policy of Bitcoin versus Ethereum. 2:13:02 And then they would most likely be like, well, Bitcoin's monetary policy is more sound and more stable and more predicted. 2:13:09 So they would most likely choose the Bitcoin side. 2:13:12 And then eventually the Bitcoin side Drivechain would overtake the market cap of the Ethereum. 2:13:20 That's kind of how I look at it. 2:13:22 I think that other people might look at it a similar way where eventually other chains would just not really need to exist because once you could do it on Bitcoin and Bitcoin's growth continues to grow, then the only difference will just be the monetary policy. 2:13:40 And everybody pretty much says that the monetary policy of Bitcoin is more predicted than any other chains. 2:13:48 So that would be a no brainer to just use Bitcoin then. 2:13:53 Thank you. 2:13:59 So let me ask another question. 2:14:03 To make a copy of Ethereum, for something to go to the Drivechain, you have to peg Satoshis or Bitcoins to the drivechain. 2:14:17 But Ethereum makes tokens out of nothing. 2:14:21 So how would that play, for example? 2:14:26 So I think this is like several questions. 2:14:32 It's a good question. 2:14:33 So first of all, the idea of tokenization has been around for a very long time, even like 2013, 2014. 2:14:38 It was just a million different clones of Bitcoin. 2:14:40 They changed a few parameters. 2:14:41 They changed the name. 2:14:43 But most of them didn't last. 2:14:45 Maybe Litecoin lasted. 2:14:47 But most of them did not last. 2:14:49 And then in 2017, the idea of tokenization and creating new assets has made a new rise. 2:14:56 And people were very interested in it because people like to speculate. 2:14:59 And then in 2021, even more so like meme coins like Shiba Inu and all this. 2:15:04 So people, for some reason, like to speculate on token creation. 2:15:07 You can also think of token creation as just shares of a company. 2:15:11 Anybody can make their own company and issue shares for it. 2:15:15 It might be bad and they might be lying. 2:15:18 They might be scamming. 2:15:19 Most likely, 99 percent of them are just taking the money and leaving. 2:15:22 But that idea isn't necessarily bad because a person can create a company and create shares for it. 2:15:28 Just like on the stock market, there's many, many, many companies, many, many different assets. 2:15:34 And a lot of them just don't do good because the company just fails. 2:15:37 That happens. 2:15:38 So if you create an Ethereum style Drivechain, sure, you can create any assets on that chain. 2:15:45 And that can be, you know, it's just that that can definitely happen. 2:15:49 But you can think of the other question that I have is what about these? 2:15:53 Somebody creates a Drivechain where they will incentivize a new token on that Drivechain. 2:15:58 Well, then you would you would. 2:16:01 The way I would understand it is most likely it's not going to benefit the miners because the miners are only going to really benefit if the base currency of the Drivechain is Bitcoin. 2:16:12 Because if the base currency of the Drivechain is Bitcoin, then they're receiving rewards in Bitcoin as there's transaction fees in that base currency. 2:16:19 So if you create a Drivechain with a new token and you incentivize the block creation of that sidechain with a new token, I don't think miners would just be incentivized to keep that chain around. 2:16:31 You know, like, why would they even do that? 2:16:33 If you could just copy it and make it with Bitcoin instead, it would be way more profitable for them. 2:16:39 So I hope that answers your question and answers another question that I had that is similar. 2:16:47 Oh, aside from you can already make tokens, right? 2:16:49 Like on Bitcoin, you can make BRC 20s and like colored coins like all this, like Omni Network and how Tether started. 2:16:56 Like the idea of token creation has been around forever. 2:16:59 I don't think Drivechains necessarily like breaks that model or like incentivize that model. 2:17:05 It's just that that has always been around. 2:17:07 And for some reason, people really like it. 2:17:09 But at least the fees of the activity of that can go to the miners. 2:17:14 And also, Bitcoin can be the base layer asset for all that. 2:17:17 There used to be a time when if you wanted any kind of altcoin, you had to first buy Bitcoin and then you would go on an exchange and then buy whatever other coin you wanted. 2:17:25 But you needed Bitcoin and all these other coins, they traded in Bitcoin. 2:17:29 So Bitcoin was the denominated asset for all of these other coins. 2:17:33 Nowadays, most of the coins can be bought on Ethereum with Ethereum the asset. 2:17:37 And most people don't even need it for Bitcoin. 2:17:39 They could just buy Ethereum and go on this chain and then use Uniswap or whatever and buy whatever token that they want. 2:17:44 All of this activity would be way better if it's done with Bitcoin the asset, because eventually people move like they might buy Shiba Inu or whatever asset on Ethereum. 2:17:55 But eventually they'll start learning about Ethereum and they'll realize that Ethereum is a little bit better for them than the high risk of whatever, you know, meme coin that they want. 2:18:03 But this activity would be better on Bitcoin because, you know, somebody might buy, you know, like a meme coin that is nominated in Bitcoin. 2:18:11 But eventually they will realize that Bitcoin is really the new innovation here. 2:18:15 And that's just the speculation. 2:18:17 So the idea of all of that activity being done on Bitcoin with Bitcoin and paid to the Bitcoin miners is a benefit. 2:18:24 But you can't really stop that activity. 2:18:26 That activity can already be done on Bitcoin and it is already done every day. 2:18:29 I think the mempool is pretty much full because of these BRC20s right now. 2:18:40 Yeah, nice. Thanks. 2:18:41 That's another doubt that I had. 2:18:46 Not myself that I have, but people like to say that it will bring regulatory oversight from the CAC and a lot of stuff. 2:18:59 But just like you said, there are ways to make new tokens on Bitcoin already. 2:19:06 So if they would call Bitcoin a security or something, they could do this right now, right? 2:19:13 Because of this new token. 2:19:14 Yeah, but it's also right. 2:19:16 That's correct. But it's also important to know that the coins wouldn't actually be on Bitcoin. 2:19:19 They would just be on a sidechain of Bitcoin. 2:19:21 You can think of it like, for example, Ethereum has WBTC, right? 2:19:25 Like wrapped Bitcoin. 2:19:27 And the idea that you can create assets on Ethereum. 2:19:30 It's a different chain, right? 2:19:32 Or liquid, liquid on liquid network. 2:19:34 You can create assets. 2:19:35 Right. 2:19:36 That's not really to do with Bitcoin. 2:19:37 It's a different chain. 2:19:38 BRC20s are actually assets being created on the Bitcoin chain in a way. 2:19:42 Right. 2:19:43 They're really not on chain, but they have some kind of connection with just the base layer of Bitcoin and no other chain. 2:19:50 So Drivechains would enable that to be not really on the base layer. 2:19:54 It would actually be on a different chain, kind of like it's on Ethereum or kind of like it's on liquid or tarot assets. 2:19:59 How, you know, taproot assets are wanting to create assets on Lightning. 2:20:04 So it would be similar where it's a different. 2:20:06 It's not really on the base layer. 2:20:08 You know, something like that. 2:20:09 But, yeah, all this stuff can already be done and is being done anyways. 2:20:12 I also wanted to say that I'm not I'm not anything I say is not really connected with LayerTwo Labs or Drivechains directly. 2:20:19 So if I say things incorrect or things that I don't know, you know, don't hold them responsible for that. 2:20:25 It's just I'm just sharing my thoughts and hopefully they are aligned or at least they're correct and helpful to others. 2:20:34 So you're not sure if what you're saying is accurate. 2:20:39 Well, you're saying he's been very accurate so far as accurate as possible. 2:20:44 But, you know, I am human and I know that because I think you've been really on. 2:20:47 I think you've been pretty accurate so far. 2:20:50 Well, thank you. 2:20:51 I just you know, I know that I make mistakes and I know that I learn and I know that there's things that I say incorrect. 2:20:56 And the next day I realized that, hey, I was wrong. 2:20:58 So, you know, just just a preamble. 2:21:00 But thank you. 2:21:08 So, guys, thank you. 2:21:17 I'm going to. 2:21:19 So thank you for everything. 2:21:20 Have a nice weekend. 2:21:22 Bye bye. 2:21:23 Thanks. 2:21:24 Thanks for your questions and thanks for hanging out with us. 2:21:26 Have a good weekend. 2:21:27 Anybody else feel free to come up and ask questions. 2:21:30 I also don't want to hug the, you know, the speaker too much. 2:21:34 Let other people talk as well and ask questions. 2:21:36 There's knowledgeable people here that can answer. 2:22:06 All right, well, maybe I'll share some thoughts that while while there's no other other people that want to come up and talk, I'll just say that I really enjoy the drive train talk because I feel like it adds to education of Bitcoin and education of the ecosystem. 2:22:29 I've definitely seen a lot of people learning and I've learned a lot, so I definitely enjoy people just just the discussions because of drivetrain, drivetrain has opened the door to a lot of discussions, a lot of people talking about, you know, about Bitcoin and understanding a little bit more about Bitcoin, hopefully. 2:22:41 So, yeah, I really enjoy these things. I think that I think that drivetrain is a great idea. I'm not the most technical person. Maybe other people that are extremely more technical, they might have, you know, other ideas about that. I personally think it's a good idea. I think that there's little, little downside. It seems like to me so far. And I think that the upside is just so tremendous, at least to me, it seems like the upside is so tremendous that it's it's worth, you know, paying a lot of attention to it. 2:23:11 It's worth learning about and it's worth talking about. And, you know, it's just it's just worth spending time on, at least for me, because I just like that people can use Bitcoin for other purposes. And I think that everybody is unique. And because everybody is unique, everybody will have their own purpose and they'll have their own use case. And I think that you can't just fit that all in one place. People should be allowed to use it however they want. And I think that drivetrain enables people to use Bitcoin however they they want to use it. 2:23:42 It's going to be more of a forceful. It'll have more of a forceful nature than that, I think. It may not be whether you have a choice or not. If Bitcoin is replacing the native token on your blockchain, then what choice do you really have but to build on Bitcoin and build with it? 2:24:08 Right. What I mean by what I mean by choice is more of like currently right now, you're limited to what you can do with Bitcoin. So if I wanted to do something like smart contracts, like an EVM style smart contracts, I can't really do it with Bitcoin. Maybe I can do a rapid coin on Ethereum, you know, but there's still limit limits to what I can do with Bitcoin because of that. You know, maybe I wanted to do things like Monero. I can't really do that with Bitcoin currently. So that's what I meant by people will be able to use Bitcoin in other ways that they want. 2:24:39 But of course, you know, people can still use any other chain, but obviously they would just have less of incentive to use a different asset if you can do all that with the same asset. 2:24:51 Well, do you think that like this Drivechain becomes more prevalent and starts to absorb and consume other blockchains while becoming the native token on these chains? These other chains will not be updated. They'll become antiquated. They won't be developed on any more updates, updates, etc. I mean, they're going to be useless. 2:25:17 That's a good question, because you can think of a lot of, you can first say that like a lot of, you know, the money on other chains is just, you know, like just goes to VCs and, you know, just gets pocketed or like sold on retail and that's it. 2:25:32 Right. Like 99 percent of it. You can make that case. OK. But you can also make the case that a lot of the, you know, investment that goes into like the speculation that goes into these other assets actually gets used towards development. 2:25:44 And then that development gets into creating, you know, protocols that maybe most of them are not good, but at least one or two might have something interesting that can be useful. 2:25:52 Right. So you can say, all right, well, that investment money, because there's a new asset, can actually be used for development. But you can still have that. 2:26:01 In the Drivechain world, all of that investment, all of that development will only be yielding results for Bitcoin. 2:26:09 Right. But what I'm saying is you can still have like raises for investment. Right. Like you can still like just if you have an EVM style chain, something like that. Right. You can still issue assets on it. 2:26:20 You can still issue assets of a new design that you want to create and you can still raise money and you can still use that money towards development of better making better Drivechains or whatever it is. 2:26:31 So like what the way I saw that the question is, like, it's a concern. Well, if all this money is, let's just say, let's let's say most of it is being stolen, but at least some of it is being used good. Right. 2:26:42 Will Drivechains eliminate that that actually that sliver of the good being used for it? Right. So I think it wouldn't because I think people can still issue assets and through enormous, enormous different kind of ways. 2:26:55 It doesn't have to be through Drivechains and because they can issue assets, they can raise funds and because they can raise funds, they can use the funds towards development. 2:27:02 So I don't think Drivechains itself would eliminate innovation through like raising funds for development. 2:27:08 On blockchains where Drivechains are interoperable with or excuse me, are integrated with rather and where Bitcoin is now the native token on that blockchain, then any innovation or any any raising of funds for that blockchain would. 2:27:27 Well, nobody would do that because they would just be raising funds for for Bitcoin and then you just move off that blockchain and start building for Bitcoin. So all these blockchains are going to disappear. 2:27:40 Right. So you want to say that there won't be an incentive to raise money to innovate? Is that basically what you're asking? 2:27:47 No. I'm saying that with blockchains, with blockchains that are now not using their own native token, where Bitcoin is now the native token on X blockchain or Y blockchain, well any innovation on that blockchain is not going to go towards their own native token. 2:28:13 So any innovation that is that is invested in on that blockchain is not going to benefit that native token. It will just benefit benefit Bitcoin. 2:28:23 Right, because there is no other native token, right? 2:28:25 Yeah. 2:28:26 You can look at it two ways, right? 2:28:27 You can look at it two ways, right? One way you can look at it as, well, anything that any other chain does, you can always just make it a native token. 2:28:57 You can make a Drivechain of it if it's actually successful and useful and it has product market fit, there's demand for it, then you could just make a copy of it and make a Drivechain. 2:29:05 So that's one way to look at it. But another way to look at it is everybody will potentially be under the same umbrella. 2:29:10 In the early days, at least from my experience, Bitcoin talk forums had an altcoin forum. 2:29:16 There was a whole section. To this day, there still is a section for altcoins. 2:29:21 Altcoins was always part of the discussion in Bitcoin from what I remember in the early days. 2:29:26 And the idea was that experiment, try it out, try it out on a new coin. 2:29:32 And if it's useful, then we're going to add it to Bitcoin eventually anyways. 2:29:35 So you might as well go and try it, learn about it, experiment with it. 2:29:38 It was always, from my experience, it was always open to learning about it and experimenting on it. 2:29:44 It was encouraged, actually, from my experience, it was encouraged to learn about other protocols and to even try them. 2:29:50 Because if they were good, we would add them to Bitcoin. 2:29:53 But here you can see that everybody would be under the same umbrella. 2:29:56 There would be no reason to ostracize somebody and tell them, oh, go and build a separate chain and create your own asset and just do something else. 2:30:04 Get away from Bitcoin. You would have no reason for that. 2:30:07 You would tell them, no, come and do it on Bitcoin. 2:30:09 Come and build on Bitcoin and they would benefit because everybody benefits together. 2:30:14 If everybody's under the same umbrella working together, it's way more powerful. 2:30:17 Instead of people being divisive and everybody creating their own assets and building their own things and competing with each other for money. 2:30:25 It would be a much better thing if everybody wants one money and just continues to build to make this one money have better use cases. 2:30:34 So two things. One is you can just copy anybody and create a Drivechain. 2:30:38 The second thing is there will be no incentive to go and build something separate. 2:30:41 You might as well just do it with Bitcoin anyways and be part of the same umbrella as everybody else. 2:30:45 You might even have more eyes. 2:30:47 You might even have more people that are open to look at it. 2:30:50 More people that are open to reviewing it. 2:30:52 More people that are open to helping you build it. 2:30:54 Right. Because you're building it together as part of their ecosystem anyways. 2:30:57 So it might even be like a more powerful effect. 2:30:59 If you go and build a new asset and coin right now, maybe less people will be interested in it. 2:31:05 But if you build it on a Drivechain of Bitcoin, way more people are going to be interested in looking at it. 2:31:10 So you're just automatically going to have user base potentially. 2:31:13 You're automatically going to have devs that will look into it. 2:31:16 So you will have that benefit that will outweigh it, I think. 2:31:20 Pretty much what I'm saying. 2:31:21 Pretty much what I'm saying. 2:31:23 Yeah, I think that will be what occurs. 2:31:27 Because you're going to have all these funding rounds of layer twos. 2:31:34 It's like, well, all you're doing is benefiting Bitcoin. 2:31:38 You're not really building a blockchain independent of it. 2:31:41 Because one, those protocols won't function as they used to. 2:31:45 And secondly, your native token is Bitcoin. 2:31:51 So I mean, I don't know how it's going to intersect with Proof of Stake. 2:31:57 But all these Proof of Stake protocols and whatever protocols are surrounding Proof of Stake, 2:32:04 they're just all going to be useless and these blockchains won't be utilized the way they were intended. 2:32:10 Perhaps if they change, I don't know how they would change necessarily to benefit the old native token. 2:32:19 And people can still use them, I suppose. 2:32:23 But if Bitcoin is a native token on that blockchain, you can't use it to benefit anything other than Bitcoin or whatever you're building on Bitcoin. 2:32:32 Yeah, I think one thing it might do for sure is at least clean up the space a tiny bit. 2:32:37 Because the biggest selling point to whatever coin it is, is like, oh, it's like Bitcoin, but it can do X, Y, Z. 2:32:44 And then by having that pitch, it's like Bitcoin, but it can do X, Y, Z, they're able to create a new asset. 2:32:51 And now with that new asset, whatever they do, they either dump it on retail or maybe they actually want to do something good with it. 2:32:56 It doesn't matter. But they're able to create that new asset with this pitch, with this marketing. 2:33:01 And I think that marketing will be eliminated because you can't say, well, it's like Bitcoin, but it can do X, Y, Z, because you can do it on Bitcoin now. 2:33:08 So it would at least eliminate that specific misleading marketing pitch. 2:33:13 So it would help clean up the space a little bit, I think. 2:33:16 Well, I think. 2:33:18 But my family is calling me, so I'm going to drop out of here. I think you have some other people that can help moderate. 2:33:24 You guys have a good, great weekend. I'm sorry to rush off right now. Take care, guys. 2:33:28 Well, like I was saying, it'll do more than clean up the space. It's going to wipe out a majority of all coins and all blockchains. 2:33:39 Yeah, it'll likely wipe out all coins and all blockchains. 2:33:44 Let me know if you can hear me. I've been having pretty serious trouble this whole space. 2:33:52 Oh, yeah, I do. I raised my hand. 2:33:55 I was wondering if there's anybody here who could address an additional question that came to my mind about running Ethereum and EVM chain on top of Drivechain. 2:34:08 I was wondering if there's anybody here who could address an additional question that came to my mind about running Ethereum and EVM chain on top of Drivechain. 2:34:22 Because Ethereum has scaling problems and is choosing to go with layer twos to address that. 2:34:32 How does that play out on an EVM on top of Drivechain? 2:34:37 How does that play out? Do L2s run on top of EVM on Drivechain? The same L2s? 2:34:43 So anything that's going on on Ethereum's EVM today could also be deployed on the Bitcoin layer two Drivechain EVM. 2:34:55 Additionally, Drivechains can have their own Drivechains. 2:35:01 So that could be an additional solution, another layer two architecture on top of it, even more so. 2:35:08 But all the roll ups and the bridges and the what do you call it? EGIN chain or whatever, which is kind of like Drivechain on Ethereum. 2:35:19 These can all be deployed on the Drivechain EVM as well. 2:35:24 Okay, I just wanted to ask because of that, that's the problem that Ethereum is facing. 2:35:30 But you wouldn't be scaling Ethereum no matter how you iterate that scenario. You would be scaling Bitcoin. 2:35:39 Well, I don't care what it's. Yeah, that's fine with me. I just want to know. I just really what I'm looking at is there an advantage? 2:35:46 Would it scale better or the same? I don't think it's going to be worse. 2:35:49 Well, it's going to at least be the same. Also, perhaps it could be better because you could have a second instance that is linked through the base chain. 2:35:59 So I don't know. I don't see. I couldn't see. I don't know about if this would happen with EVM. 2:36:05 But you can imagine like large block or let's say sidechains that are purely transactional focused. 2:36:12 So they'd likely be large block sidechains. Well, because most economic activity occurs with people who are somewhat similarly located to you geographically. 2:36:27 It's likely that you could have geographically based large block sidechains like you could have a North American. 2:36:36 I mean, not that there would be any like actual borders or fences to keep that to keep those rules in place. 2:36:45 But it would probably just spontaneously organically emerge that you would have multiple transactional sidechains that would likely be based on geography just because that's what kind of transactional activity in the real world is kind of based on. 2:37:06 Is this all? I mean, is this all sharing one liquidity pool and fully composable or are you talking about a fragmented world? 2:37:19 Well, it would all be one liquidity pool because it would all be 21 million Bitcoin. 2:37:25 Right, right. 2:37:26 So it would all be linked together. And the other thing is that you can basically have payment channels between networks because as long as the sidechains are UTXO based and I would assume I would. 2:37:40 I mean, it's almost certain that every single one of them would be or like the vast, vast majority. 2:37:46 They can be linked with – you could have payment channels between the sidechains as well. 2:37:54 So as long as you have a counterpart on the other side willing to swap the asset that's in that sidechain, you can do that. 2:38:02 Yeah, but that sounds like a temporary link. That sounds like a manual setup, temporary link. It's a one-to-one link rather than… 2:38:11 Well, it wouldn't be a temporary link. It'd be just an arbitrage because at the end of the day, you can always withdraw to the main chain and then immediately deposit into any of the other sidechains. 2:38:26 So there'd be likely a robust market doing arbitrage. 2:38:32 It would be a very – probably a very low, big arbitrage, but there would be some basically risk-free rate of return for anyone willing to put up their coin to cover the short-term supply and demand between the… 2:38:57 But you're describing this. I'm not disputing any of that, but you're describing what a sophisticated user would do. 2:39:07 I'm trying to imagine what an unsophisticated everyman would be able and willing to do. 2:39:14 It's just the same or even simpler than using Kraken or Coinbase today. It would likely be – well, probably Kraken, Coinbase, Binance would all have these services. 2:39:27 Maybe the miners themselves would offer the services. There might be… 2:39:32 It'd be front-ended. 2:39:36 It could be front-ended in many, many ways. It could be – and there already is a site that was kind of inspired by this called Sideshift.ai. 2:39:47 So if you want to look at how somebody who built an exchange that was directly inspired by this idea of instant swap between sidechains… 2:39:59 On Drivechain or some other – on Drivechain. 2:40:02 Well, the Drivechain – the site was inspired by the idea that a service provider would be needed to perform these short-term swaps between the sidechains. 2:40:19 And so there always will be somebody willing to take custody of the encumbered coins, the coins that are encumbered in the sidechain, and give you coins in a different sidechain or in the main chain for some price. 2:40:40 Because they know to a certain – to a certain very, very high level of confidence that they are going to receive the – they can return their coins back to the base chain within three months or whatever the time is. 2:40:58 Because they can also kind of take custody of – these transactions could also occur with coins that are in process of being withdrawn as well. 2:41:07 So from a user experience standpoint, this sounds more complicated than the solutions that are being developed and talked about. 2:41:18 Not delivered today, but being developed and talked about on top of Ethereum. 2:41:22 Is that not necessarily true? 2:41:24 No, I think it's actually much simpler. At the base of like – it's at least as simple as a user logging into like the standard front end for Uniswap, probably much simpler than that. 2:41:40 But also there could be any number of services that basically act as a front end for this same type of service. 2:41:47 Because what you're talking about is a very, very basic exchange service. 2:41:53 It's extremely basic because you're not even exchanging one asset for a different asset in a different blockchain. 2:41:59 You're exchanging assets in the same – so you don't even have to think about the pricing or like… 2:42:08 Yeah, so it sounds – what seems to me to be a good user experience on the Ethereum narrative is layer twos are – they can easily with ZK proofs transfer assets between the different layer twos without much problem. 2:42:32 Because they're all trading on top of ETH or they're trading ETH or both, and that's not the case between a bunch of alt L1s. 2:42:41 So the same argument could be made on this architecture. 2:42:46 Well, it's going to be as easy because that can be ported over directly as well onto the layer two EDM. 2:42:55 So it will at least be that easy because that will also be present in the ecosystem. 2:43:02 Right, so the only thing you're replacing is really the ETH as a settlement layer in that scenario. 2:43:12 The ETH would be – well, there would be no ETH, but the EDM would be placed one level up, and the ultimate settlement layer would then be the BTC base chain, and all of the ETH as a settlement layer stuff right now would be in the second layer. 2:43:33 So it may be that when it's merged and then we have the benefit of some time, three years or whatever, that some basic fundamentals of how the ecosystem developed have changed. 2:43:51 But also from that perspective, from the perspective of the current ETH ecosystem, because maybe there'll be more specialized sidechains and some things like, I don't know, NFTs or something will be kind of all but absent from the EVM chain because they now are kind of intimately connected through the base chain to some other specialized sidechain. 2:44:17 That's kind of more focused on NFTs specifically or asset creation or whatever, or maybe not. 2:44:25 Yeah, okay. All right. Well, I was just curious to ask about scalability because that's an obvious barrier. 2:44:38 Well, that's kind of one of the main, if not the main problem that Drivechain solves is scalability because it allows for all the instances of the trade-off, all the spectrum of trade-offs between scalability and decentralization and all other trade-offs. 2:45:05 It allows for them all to exist on the network at once with the base chain making all those trade-offs. 2:45:14 Yeah, while the base chain maintains as much decentralization as possible at the expense of base chain scalability, you can move that toggle to whatever point along the spectrum you want and create a chain on top of it that can make those trade-offs without risking the base chain. 2:45:40 When you say base chain, you mean the Bitcoin chain? 2:45:45 The Bitcoin network, yeah. So the Bitcoin network must remain as decentralized as possible. 2:45:51 The blocks must remain small. In fact, it's likely that in an ideal world, the blocks would be even smaller than they are today, which would obviously sacrifice scalability to a degree, but would make the network more robust from a decentralization perspective. 2:46:13 And if we had already had Drivechain merge, the trade-off of lowering the block size, the scalability trade-off, would be a lot less risky to the security budget, to the usability of the network, to user acquisition, to the growth of the network, to the number go up of Bitcoin. 2:46:41 It would be a lot less risky than it would be today. 2:46:44 You mean if the block size was smaller? 2:46:48 Yeah. If we were to lower the block size today, sans Drivechain, it's a pretty serious trade-off. It's a very serious scalability trade-off that's there. 2:47:00 Can I ask you why – I never understood this. I've been trying to understand. Why does a smaller block size make it less scalable? Why are the… 2:47:11 There's less space in each block for users to transact. So less transactions can make it into each block, which means less users can get a transaction into each block. 2:47:27 Which means, you know, eventually, perhaps, would mean a much more expensive, much more expensive transaction. 2:47:36 Yeah, because I don't… 2:47:38 So very simply put, the trade-off with that is that it makes it much easier to run a node because you have much lower, 2:47:51 mostly bandwidth, but also… 2:47:56 Hardware? 2:47:57 Yeah, hardware, although that's kind of really not a bottleneck at this point. 2:48:02 Right. 2:48:03 But you can imagine with a smaller block size that the worst, the most adverse conditions, like you're in sub-Saharan Africa in the middle of a brutal civil war or something, 2:48:14 and you're still able to tap into enough bandwidth to run your own node, which in a hyper-Bitcoinized world, that is a scenario which maybe somebody somewhere is going to need to do. 2:48:28 Maybe they only have some very rudimentary connection, internet connection, very low bandwidth, they're in the middle of a conflict zone, whatever you can think of as worst-case scenario. 2:48:41 But basically, it's easier to run a node, so you imagine there'll be more nodes running. 2:48:47 Yeah, so that's, I guess, I don't know if I articulated it the best, but that's basically the trade-off. 2:48:54 What about what Jack Dorsey is working on? Wouldn't it be easier with smaller block sizes given what you just said? 2:49:01 Like an appliance, a home appliance that spits out Bitcoin, a heater, a home heater. I think Jack Dorsey is working on a home heating device that mines Bitcoin. 2:49:12 I mean is that relevant to what you're arguing? 2:49:15 Well, not exactly, although there's plenty of discussion around that, because funny enough, one of the main arguments against Drivechains is that it creates this kind of side business for that miners are going to then be required to engage in, 2:49:35 thus increasing the cost of mining or whatever, but it's kind of analogous to the mining being used to heat a house or heat a swimming pool or heat a greenhouse or do whatever, XYZ. 2:49:51 It kind of highlights how ridiculous that argument can get. But anyway, that's kind of a distraction, or at least being the point we were talking about earlier, we can talk about anything you want. 2:50:02 No, it's okay. I don't want to distract. I just try to understand the block size argument. Everybody assumes it's understandable, but it's never been clear. 2:50:14 Well, that's the very basic thing, is there's a tradeoff. The larger block size allows for more transactions in every block, but makes it more difficult to run your own validating node, and the inverse is true of a smaller block size. 2:50:33 Okay. 2:50:35 That's been the crux of a lot of – probably the most drama in the history of this industry is that tradeoff. 2:50:43 I've been reading a lot about that because there's some loud voices on Twitter about how that was just Bitcoin's biggest mistake, and that Bitcoin Core took it over, and that it's going to ultimately be the demise of Bitcoin and all that stuff. 2:50:59 I mean, the small blocks needed to win. I would say that if they're saying that that's Bitcoin's biggest mistake, that's not correct. 2:51:06 Yeah, they are. 2:51:08 Small blocks are superior if you have that binary, if it has to be one or the other. However, with Drivechains, it doesn't have to be one or the other. 2:51:19 In that whole argument, if it was presented as either small blocks or big blocks, then small blocks are superior, but not without cost. 2:51:28 However, the real answer was, but why not both? 2:51:32 Because you can have an optional big block sidechain on top of a mandatory small block mainchain, but you cannot have the inverse. 2:51:45 You cannot have a small block, more decentralized, more robust from the perspective of validation and all that. 2:51:57 You can't have that on top of a less decentralized hard block mainchain. 2:52:03 Because you can aggregate the small blocks into a big block, but you can't split up a big block into a bunch of small blocks. 2:52:10 Well, it's more so that you can have the base chain, which is mandatory for anybody running any sidechain. 2:52:17 You can have that be small block with more decentralized, more decentralization. 2:52:25 But if you sacrifice the decentralization on the base chain, that sacrifice goes all the way up. 2:52:33 You can think of it as a check valve. 2:52:38 So the Drivechain above the base chain, the attributes of the base chain can flow up, but they can't flow back down. 2:52:48 There's a firewall. It's more of a check valve because it's unidirectional. 2:52:54 Any drama or politics or even a complete blow up or centralization, whatever that happens on the sidechains, 2:53:04 the base chain, because of the way the Drivechains are constructed, the base chain is protected from any of that. 2:53:13 We have someone raising their hand. 2:53:16 Okay, thanks for your answers. Thanks for your help. 2:53:19 My pleasure. I hope it's somewhat insightful. 2:53:23 No, it is. It is. It's very helpful. 2:53:26 Well, thank you for participating. 2:53:29 Thank you. 2:53:34 How are you? 2:53:36 Is this Mr. Sudhanam? 2:53:38 Yes. How are you doing? 2:53:40 Doing very well. Yeah, I can't really see when somebody's talking because my Twitter is buggy, but yeah, thank you for joining. 2:53:51 Thanks for answering the question. 2:53:54 I'm a little bit worried or curious about what kind of user experience and network effect is expected. 2:54:05 And I say that based on just using Lightning. That's a friction. 2:54:13 So we need to use another wallet. And there's already been a sidechain from Blockstream, which has gained zero traction. 2:54:23 And so I'm wondering what's the most optimistic path to having enough demand for people to go through hoops to install another wallet and deal with something different. 2:54:39 And also another thing that worries me is that if there's a finality thing and each drive... I guess eventually... 2:54:48 Yeah, it seems like a complexity to tell people about the level of finality they can expect on a drivechain. 2:54:59 So I actually think maybe the finality is a strength versus altcoins because the sidechains are merge-mined on top of Bitcoin, which has by far the most finality guarantees of... 2:55:19 Practically speaking, there's no checkpoint. There's no whatever explicit finality guaranteed in the code. 2:55:27 But of course, the size of the network or the size of the security budget of the network of Bitcoin so far exceeds everything else that I'd say the de facto finality on Bitcoin dwarfs any other asset. 2:55:42 And the sidechains on top of that would inherit that finality to a very large degree. I mean, they wouldn't necessarily... 2:55:53 Well, that's the thing. I'm not so sure of that because on Bitcoin, miners have capital expenditure in terms of owning miners and owning the data center. 2:56:02 As on the Drivechain, it's more like whoever pays more to reverse a transaction. That's my understanding. 2:56:11 Well, it is. However, the market would probably develop to the point where the size of the Drivechain, the utilization of the Drivechain would work its way up to, how would you say, giving as much money as possible to the basechain miners. 2:56:36 What were the other two questions? Because I already forgot that. I think you had three. 2:56:41 The user experience. 2:56:43 That is my first thing because I've tried the liquid sidechain. And one of my issues with it is that to take out, you basically have to go through a centralized entity. 2:56:58 Yeah, of course. 2:57:00 And that's as bad as almost using a KYC exchange. 2:57:04 It's pretty bad. 2:57:07 I'm assuming that with Drivechain, because it's more trustless de-pegging, there'll be more liquidity. 2:57:19 Yeah, so the comparison of liquid to Drivechains is, I mean, you can see why it's made, but I think it's given much more weight than it should. 2:57:32 Well, one thing is what you just said. Basically, liquid is a centralized entity. Now, people will come back and say, no, it's whatever. It's a 15 signature wallet, multi-sig or whatever. 2:57:45 However, we don't know who those 15 signatories are until extremely recently. I don't remember exactly, but until basically sometime earlier this year, not that long ago, it was closed source. 2:58:01 It's a very different thing than having the miners themselves process these withdrawals. 2:58:16 The ethos of Bitcoin, I would say, is not exactly the ethos of liquid. 2:58:29 I think liquid was kind of originally meant to kind of just do very rapid Bitcoin settlement between exchanges and the like, but it never really fulfilled that promise for a number of reasons. 2:58:49 But I think one of the main reasons is that all the liquid exchanges, not the liquid exchanges being like exchanges that use liquid, I mean the exchanges that matter in terms of price recovery, the big market makers on there, they have enough capital to have some in motion just on the base chain, just on an L1 transfer between, let's say, Bitfinex or Kraken. 2:59:14 But two, they have like credit agreements and all sorts of arrangements with these exchanges so that should there be a large price shift and there actually be an arbitrage opportunity, they don't need to use liquid because they already have something that's kind of like a stopgap for capital at these exchanges. 2:59:44 There's a stopgap that will allow them to take advantage of those price movements, make those markets, and then transfer the capital to rebalance their various accounts at the exchanges without just using an L1 transaction. 3:00:11 They have the agreements with the exchanges in place so that they can wait the hour or two to be credited with a Bitcoin transaction on the exchanges. 3:00:22 Does that make sense? 3:00:24 I was working at Kraken for many years and I worked at Kraken for more than 8 years before I kind of teamed up with Paul to work on LayerTwo Labs. 3:00:40 I remember when this was, maybe 5 years ago or whatever, Liquid had a salesman from Blockstream trying to persuade Kraken, and I'm sure he was talking to every other major exchange, to try to adopt Liquid. 3:01:00 I don't really know what they're doing today, but the main use case proposed back then was Bitcoin settlement basically, so that users could move their Bitcoin from Kraken to Bitfinex and vice versa in seconds or minutes instead of having to wait for an hour or whatever. 3:01:24 Or having to wait for one confirmation or whatever. 3:01:27 I don't know what Kraken is doing today, but back then, even for the biggest traders, we made every user wait for six confirmations, but I know that Kraken was the only exchange to do that. 3:01:39 So already, I believe every other exchange for their big market makers was crediting with one confirmation. 3:01:48 So basically Liquid, and I think Liquid has one minute block times, it's not like 15 seconds. 3:01:54 So I believe basically what their value add was, was taking for the most part, was taking the confirmations through the crediting, the speed of crediting Bitcoin on an exchange down from 10 minutes to one minute. 3:02:12 And for that, the trade-off is that it's encumbered, not by the miners as in Drivechain, it's encumbered by this somewhat opaque federation. 3:02:29 And back then, it was even more ridiculous because they were trying, they were, let me try to get this all in order, get this all straight. 3:02:38 They were saying one of their security pillars of their security was that the Liquid network was only running, the nodes would only run on these proprietary servers that had thermite. 3:02:54 So if they were tampered with, they would self-destruct. 3:02:57 I don't know if they're still, if they're actually ever deployed that. 3:03:02 Yeah, that's fine, but I think we can agree that increased settlement time and only settlement was not good enough. 3:03:11 There was not enough demand for that because they already are very trustworthy entities. 3:03:17 When it started, it was one story. 3:03:22 But then, you know, whatever, six months or, you know, because that was, I believe in 2016 or maybe moving to 2017, but things changed so much between beginning of 2017 and the end. 3:03:36 Because in the beginning, the main, the chief market makers like unifying the pricing throughout the market in this industry were, I don't know, you know, we're not amateurs by any means. 3:03:48 But by the end, it was like Sequoia and Jump Capital and all of these like major HFT traditional market participants were all beginning to deploy capital. 3:04:02 And they have absolutely no shortage of capital. 3:04:06 Of course, they want to get the most bang for their buck. 3:04:09 But, yeah, the whole promise of liquid was much less attractive. 3:04:19 And on the other end of things, the venues changed a great deal. 3:04:27 So one thing about the 2017 bull market was that the chief price discovery venue was BitMEX. 3:04:36 And of course, at the time, I don't think so anymore. 3:04:39 But at the time, BitMEX was only Bitcoin. 3:04:42 Bitcoin in, Bitcoin out, only Bitcoin. 3:04:45 Everything. 3:04:49 The only collateral you could have on your account was Bitcoin. 3:04:53 Of course, you could take positions to like hedge that. 3:04:55 You could just do like a neutral short or whatever, like a 1x short or whatever. 3:05:00 But the base asset, the only thing you'd have in your account was Bitcoin. 3:05:05 So with all the liquidity in BitMEX and the market being so volatile, so like, you know, such a crazy bull market that year, there was a lot of demand for Bitcoin just for people to fund their BitMEX accounts. 3:05:22 That's not the case anymore. 3:05:23 I mean, now there's all sorts of assets. 3:05:27 Ethereum has a non-trivial amount of volume and is and represents the cross like the currency on a non-trivial. 3:05:35 Not, you know, Bitcoin still has much more, but the amount of markets and the size of the market that Ethereum is the currency for today is definitely not trivial. 3:05:46 And of course, now stable coins are, I believe, the vast majority of the quote currencies like in this market. 3:05:55 So things are completely different now. 3:05:58 But I think maybe that's gotten off the topic. 3:06:02 So my main question is what kind of like use case do you foresee as being the main driver of like demand or to go to borrow, to basically borrow to learn a new trade off and learn a new wallet? 3:06:21 Because like just transacting is not it and there won't be any altcoins like issuance. 3:06:27 There might be some. 3:06:29 It will be or it will be, I don't know if it will be, but it could be very similar, almost the exact same user experience as today where a user who wants to interact with altcoins and Bitcoin and shit coins and whatever, 3:06:45 except for that there's one less extremely important variable they have to contend with, which is the price variability between these assets and the like. 3:07:00 Whatever user interfaces or user experience is happening today on whatever asset they're using, whether they're using that, whether they're running their own node, their own Solana node, their own Binance Smart Chain node, which is a joke because obviously no one's running their own nodes for those things. 3:07:19 But even if they were, they could do that as well on the clones of the things on Bitcoin, or they could interact with it through whatever the whatever somebody will make. 3:07:33 I'm sure a clone of Metamask for Drivechains or they could interact with it through a centralized exchange as many, if not the majority of people who are crypto asset owners or crypto market participants do like probably the vast majority of people who are in the market have never even set up their own wallet, much less their own node. 3:07:57 They just go on to their favorite exchange and buy their favorite shit coin and log off and hope for gains. 3:08:07 And that's the extent of their participation. 3:08:10 So any experience that the user is experiencing today, that can be ported directly to Drivechains and it could be improved because no longer do you need to worry about which asset to speculate in because Bitcoin swallows it all. 3:08:31 But in terms of like altcoin utility, what I noticed is that there's a centralized exchange and what is being traded on the centralized exchange, let's say I check Uniswap top pair. 3:08:49 Well, there's one that's like, yeah, there's like a Vibonium, there's Ethereum and Stablecoin and Rapidcoin, Vido, Pepe, Dai. 3:09:05 So this is basically just trading chain coin and Stablecoin on Ethereum. 3:09:15 So I'm guessing like speculating on the price of Bitcoin and maybe like synthetic Stablecoin. 3:09:23 Well, if people want the gambling face, like let's say like and it was so first of all, any of that token creation, like much to the dismay of some of the critics that can occur on Drivechains as well. 3:09:36 If you want to spin up some asset that's tied to nothing and is just a meme coin based on a frog or whatever you want, you can do that on Drivechains as well. 3:09:50 But there is, you know, they're likely to be some sacrifice in terms of speculation on. 3:09:58 Well, basically what it's come down to is you're saying like the main use case for all coins that you see is these decentralized gambling markets. 3:10:07 Well, that might be. 3:10:09 There's a whole lot of composability within Ethereum where people use Ethereum to buy some Pepe or some other garbage. 3:10:20 And if there's no garbage on. 3:10:23 So there's already like a network effect of all the garbage is at the same place. 3:10:29 That's that's what I want to make a lot of garbage on top of Bitcoin. 3:10:35 There's there's a massive amount of room to make a lot of garbage on top of Bitcoin. 3:10:38 And if Bitcoin becomes, you know, the main or in time, the only L1 speculative asset. 3:10:45 Well, you could always just kind of lever that up. Right. 3:10:48 You could have a you could I think like, you know, like the stuff that was on FTX, this like BTC 100 coin or whatever, which is like 100 X. 3:10:57 I don't know if they ever had 100 X, but they basically had like bull Bitcoin coin where it would like it was a separate coin created by FTX that would track the price of Bitcoin, but levered or something like that. 3:11:10 That basically all of that stuff, anything that exists on these altcoins, unless, you know, you have some specific, really nuanced edge case example that I'm not thinking of, all of that can and likely will exist on top of Bitcoin. 3:11:29 And likely very shortly after merging Drivechains, because people can just copy and paste it, all the stuff that already exists today. 3:11:39 It's likely that everything of any note that is has, you know, a lot of users or has a lot of attention on Ethereum or other altcoin, that stuff will likely exist on top of Bitcoin within weeks. 3:11:53 So the example of that are like kind of lead developer Cryptax likes to say or likes to talk about, maybe he's here, but basically, you have Zcash did like version five. 3:12:09 And they have, you know, the whatever is companies like electric coin company, and they have like, I don't know, five or 10 PhD cryptographers under on their staff. 3:12:19 And it took them two years to create this version five, which was a huge upgrade. 3:12:24 It eliminated the trusted setup, and it changed a lot of things. 3:12:29 And it was a lot of work, I'm sure for all these people. 3:12:33 And then like 48 hours later. 3:12:36 Then like 48 hours later, the Zcash version five had been copied onto the Drivechain testnet. And it was like, it wasn't like a hardcore 48 hours, it was like a 48 hours with, you know, plenty of sleep and rest, and plenty of time to relax in between sprints of work. Because basically, the engineer just took the code that was open source that was 3:13:03 released the Zcash version five, and in many instances, literally copy and pasted it. And 48 hours later, it was deployed to the 3:13:13 Drivechain testnet and ready to be used. And so anything that's out there today, could literally just be copy and pasted onto the Drivechain 3:13:27 EVM testnet, which also already exists. And already it is a perfect clone of the Ethereum EVM, so much so that as a test, you know, many contracts have been copy and pasted onto the 3:13:43 Drivechain EVM testnet and they function, they function. 3:13:48 Yeah. 3:13:49 Well, basically, one of the 3:13:50 I 3:13:52 that was Drivechain, every shitcoin developer becomes a Bitcoin developer, whether they want to or not, whether they are happy about it or not. Anything that comes to any shitcoin 3:14:05 can be then deployed onto Bitcoin. With very, most importantly, with no downside to the Bitcoin base chain, the Bitcoin base chain doesn't even know about it. It doesn't even know that it's 3:14:17 happened. The Bitcoin base chain does not know that Zcash version five has been has been implemented on top of it. 3:14:26 Yeah, I guess there would be no shitcoin developer. But let's say someone wants to create a token that represents real world asset, he could use that, let's say the volcano bond or something so people could trade it with Bitcoin. And but like each Drivechain, it's its own bubble. So I see like a composability issue where like, let's say you have Bitcoin, you have Bitcoin. 3:14:53 I need to wait or use a third party. And it's like the shit coiner they go where there's a lot of the dumb money. So that's why they go on ethereum. 3:15:04 And that's also the case today. 3:15:06 Like if you want to transfer ethereum, USDT on ethereum, the USDT on Tron, you'll need some sort of intermediaries or some sort of counterpart to trade with or you need some sort of a partner to trade with. 3:15:23 But whatever it is, that can be built on top of the EVM on top of Bitcoin. So you see what I'm saying? Like, whatever problem that you're addressing, that problem exists already on top of the EVM on top of Bitcoin. 3:15:39 And the solutions that they come up with there can be copied on to the Bitcoin sidechain as well. But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. 3:15:51 But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. And the solutions that they come up with there can be copied on to the Bitcoin sidechain as well. But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. 3:16:08 But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. And the solutions that they come up with there can be copied on to the Bitcoin sidechain as well. But at the base of it, it's a Bitcoin sidechain. 3:16:38 It democratizes access to being a market maker on Niquid where you have to be a federation member and 80% of them are exchange, which I don't want to do. So that's great. But I don't ascribe too much to the narrative to kill the shitcoin because I don't see a clear network effect building up ever in my mind. 3:17:08 I don't see a clear network effect building up ever in my mind. 3:17:39 What's already the strongest network with the strongest security guarantees and just porting over everything on top of that. So the real question is, how will the network effect of these networks that are not in first place survive? 3:17:56 Ethereum is not in first place. Bitcoin, despite all its limited functionality and despite not being able to copy every single thing that Ethereum does, is still in first place. So if you have Bitcoin with Ethereum and everything else combined versus Ethereum without Bitcoin and everything else combined, how is that a stronger network effect? 3:18:22 When it's already winning, Bitcoin is already winning for now. 3:18:25 Well, it's a stronger effect because it has zero monetary value or it should not have any. And people use it for gas because they want to trade the existing 5,000 garbage. And the 5,000 garbage were created like some of them like six, seven, eight years ago. And I guess you can't compete with six years of garbage with new garbage. 3:18:53 Why would that even be the case at all? Of course you can compete. It's not like what's it there today is the end all be all of innovation. And I mean, what was on like things that were there six years ago are likely not even used today. 3:19:18 You know, like what was the I don't know, I'm trying to think of like like one of the first big things, the boom Ethereum was Augur. 3:19:27 Augur. No one uses Augur today. Augur was never used. And I mean, the only thing Augur was used for was people buying the ICO and speculating that by the time the network launched, nobody cared anymore. 3:19:40 And then there was what else? All sorts of garbage like that. That's gone down ninety nine point nine percent and is no longer used by anybody ever. And then there was like CryptoKitties was the first of these like generative NFT things or whatever. 3:19:56 Nobody uses that anymore. So it's complete nonsense. Six years is nothing, especially when you're talking about Bitcoin's already number one. You know, it's like to think that Bitcoin can't compete with Ethereum when it already does is already winning. 3:20:10 Of course they can. And of course, like whatever you're using today in six years from now, you're going to it's probably going to be comical. The idea that like whatever that Augur is going to hold any value or that Civic is going to hold any value or poet or whatever these ICOs. 3:20:28 I mean, was that six years ago now? Not quite, but oh, yeah. So it was about six years ago. None of these things have more than like a 98 percent drawdown. If you have an ICO from 2017 that's only had a 95 percent drawdown, you're like in the elite. You know, it's like none of these things are relevant at all. 3:20:50 Yeah. So I think one of the use case I see most for the Drivechain is to convert Bitcoin to stablecoin and just be trade this in a decentralized way. So because right now people there is demand for stablecoin, but you have to go through Ethereum to be able to go in and out instead of all you have to use wrapped Bitcoin, which you can never redraw. 3:21:20 Like trust this manner. So, yeah, it's good. I mean, thanks for answering my question. 3:21:30 That's the demand. That's like a perfectly illustrates the demand in spite of all of its downsides. That's much more illustrative of the demand for Drivechains than liquid. I think wrapped Bitcoin is a much better analogy to what Drivechains actually are than than is liquid. 3:21:49 And the demand is obviously huge there in spite of all of the risks and trade offs of like kind of instead of just, you know, handing your funds to BitGo and hoping that they do what's right by you with Drivechains, it has a much, much more secure architecture. 3:22:09 But yeah, sorry to interrupt you. I think maybe there's like a slight lag. Thank you for your question. 3:22:40 There's a few that are ready for like so just, you know, by chance that we let's say we put out the the final draft PR requests tomorrow, they were just like, you know, dropped out of nowhere and the miners on Sunday merged it. 3:22:56 And by Monday, Drivechains was a done deal in Bitcoin. I think right now there is maybe Henry can verify, but I think there's like seven ready for launch, I believe. 3:23:10 So there's like we said, there's the EVM sidechain, there's a Zcash sidechain, there's what's called Thunder, which is basically just a big block sidechain. 3:23:25 Um, there's bit assets. So that's like, kind of just an asset generation specific sidechain that's not, it's like kind of its own, its own thing. It's not based on a it's not basic. It's like, as it's not a clone of any existing all coin. 3:23:43 Um, I guess that would be most similar to kind of like Namecoin or something, the bid assets, but like more broad. There, there's more to there's more of them. And likely likely Paul would release his, uh, his prediction market sidechain in some month, you know, I'm not sure if it's ready for like immediate launch, but it's probably not until like, 3:24:13 it's definitely far away. It's pretty close. Sorry, one second. Um, I'm not sure there's more to if you go to, uh, drivechain.info for slash releases, you can download a lot of this software already and run it on the run it on the on the testnet. So it's, it's, it's out there already. 3:24:36 Um, nice. 3:25:07 But, uh, as far as, um, just building them, I'm sure I'm sure there'd be, uh, there'd probably be quite a few dozen more within, you know, just a few days as people kind of copy the, whatever their favorite or maybe their least favorite, uh, shit coin is. 3:25:27 Well, there's also train chain. I can't forget about train chain. That's one. That's like a, like a, an old meme coin made by, uh, the famous Mike in space, the Twitter personality Mike in space made this train chain, which is basically, uh, just a copy of Bitcoin, but, um, it's about trains. 3:25:51 Like, I guess, like, you know, those coins about doge and train chains about trains. 3:25:55 Um, I don't know if anybody else wants to, uh, wants to come up and, uh, discuss anything. You don't even have to ask any question. Obviously I can just stop talking and anyone else can just take the stage if they want to talk. 3:26:26 Well, thank you. I'll hop down once you come up with good question, but I just have seen so many, but like feature and project and it, it, it, it, it, it, it merge and it takes years to see, to see actual use case. Use it. 3:26:46 Yes, of course. But the, the, the kind of the whole point of drag chain is just that, uh, we're not spinning it up from scratch. We're building it on top of Bitcoin, which thankfully still has some, some usage. 3:27:03 Although sadly, uh, not as many paying customers as, uh, for block space as, uh, Ethereum, it seems. 3:27:21 Hi guys. 3:27:24 Hello. 3:27:26 Thank you. 3:27:28 Yeah. You're welcome. 3:27:31 Uh, I want to, uh, add something to, and, uh, all the time, which you were saying is, is great. 3:27:42 Thank you for explaining everything. 3:27:44 I wanted to compare something, uh, between, you know, why, why Drivechain is kind of a needed now. 3:27:50 And, uh, I think it's a big mistake that is not enabled even earlier on, on Bitcoin, because, um, I even tweeted this, that, uh, Ethereum, for example, they, they try something else now to, to do and then scale. 3:28:04 And actually they, you know, for me, it's looking as a, as a copy of the Drivechain concept. 3:28:10 You know, if they, if they copied or took, I don't know, but it's like, uh, with, with their latest, uh, kind of, uh, um, uh, EAP to kind of, um, reduce the, um, the gas and increase the scalability with, uh, kind of using, uh, bundle transactions. 3:28:33 Sending to as a one cash to the main chain. 3:28:37 And, uh, I don't know if you know about that, Austin, it's, uh, I mean, it's, uh, ERC now it's ERC. 3:28:49 It's already approved, I think ERC 4337, where the, you, the users sending transactions, um, will be between, will be a bundler. 3:29:00 And actually I recognize that as a, you know, the Drivechain node, which, uh, bundles the transactions and, uh, the, the, as a bundle in one hash is sent to the, to the main Ethereum chain, which is like, you know, kind of, uh, very, very interesting. 3:29:18 Very interesting to see that, uh, the other blockchains or old coins try to, you know. 3:29:24 How did it, um, that the, uh, bundler is prevented from stealing the money? 3:29:31 That's the question because, you know, I, I see that as a very centralized way of, uh, doing things because it's, it's no kind of, um, maybe it is. 3:29:40 I, I, I didn't went very deep in the, you know, but, uh, it's kind of probably like a relay or, you know, somebody who, who will offer that kind of service to, to do, but, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of like centralized way of, of doing things. 3:29:58 And this is very, very also important to kind of compare with, uh, with Drivechains that Drivechains are completely trustless and, uh, you know, respect the decentralization of Bitcoin and et cetera, et cetera. 3:30:13 And, uh, yeah, but also it's, uh, I, I, I know you, you talked about, um, from where the adoption or the demand for direction will come. 3:30:24 I think besides everything, what you said, I agree. 3:30:29 And, uh, but I think that, uh, direction will have demand from, uh, from the businesses. 3:30:35 Why I'm saying this because, uh, for a long time, I follow what the businesses are doing and, uh, how they approach to, to blockchain technologies. 3:30:46 Uh, and, uh, I know that many, many companies, even in the spaces, they, they were talking that they try to, to kind of use the Bitcoin for, uh, for business related stuff, like, you know, like, uh, digital infrastructure or stuff like that. 3:31:03 So that's a very, for me, very kind of interesting, uh, niche of, uh, maybe it will be not niche, it will be big, but I believe it will be big. 3:31:14 Um, and, uh, direction is a perfect, perfect solution for that because they can create direction for anything. 3:31:24 You know, I believe that they can create it for anything. 3:31:26 I mean, uh, even for, uh, like, uh, supply chain, accounting, uh, you know, uh, sort of all sorts of stuff. 3:31:37 So there will be a volume and, uh, you know, we'll be on Bitcoin, which is the most important. 3:31:46 I mean, it would make sense because if they're going to do, if anyone's going to build any infrastructure on a public chain and, um, Drivechains are available, then it would just make sense to build on Drivechain because the security of Bitcoin network is superior. 3:32:09 Yeah. But do you, do you think they can, they can do a private, private chain or, uh, you know, a chain that is kind of, uh, uh, not, not open for, I mean, sidechain? 3:32:23 I'm not the answer one to answer this exactly because this is like a real edge case that I don't think I've thought too much about, but, um, I believe that technically that would be possible. 3:32:33 I think, I mean, I guess you could, you could just propose a chain where it kind of, I guess the way you would do that is you would just basically limit the, the, who can validate, um, and you could add all sorts of rules that, you know, there'd be privileged participants that can freeze funds and whatever else. 3:32:57 Um, I think that difficulty would maybe would be in getting enough miners to approve of allocating that chain a slot. Um, but I guess it, I guess it might be possible. Yeah. 3:33:11 Yeah. Just, just in a, in a, you know, from a technical standpoint, because probably they will not use any kind of, uh, you know, they will not try to do any, any token or, uh, you know, coin or stuff like that. 3:33:26 I'm, I'm looking, uh, Drivechains as a, you know, I, I eliminate this buzz of, uh, people saying, oh, there will be shit coins and stuff like that because it's, it's very incredible idea that, you know, we'll, we'll bring something, uh, very valuable and opportunity for many, many kind of innovation to be, to be done on, on Drivechains. 3:33:50 But, you know, it's, as you said, and Paul said, and everybody's saying that, you know, the, the main chain is untouched. It's a small block is sitting as it is. And, you know, that's a perfect, perfect match. I think. 3:34:05 Yeah. You know what I think now that I thought about it more, maybe it could happen if the private, whoever wants this private chain basically like just pays enough, but I don't know. I mean, that's, that's, it's, yeah, I'm not really sure. But, uh, yeah, I, I agree with you on your, your other points. 3:34:28 Yeah. 3:34:59 Using public blockchain for, for, uh, data that is, uh, sensitive. I mean, that's obvious. 3:35:05 Um, I mean, it's something, maybe we should be something we can, I'll discuss and, uh, maybe we can kind of bring this up intentionally on the next spaces or have someone else, uh, discuss it. Someone a little more knowledgeable like, uh, like Cryptax here. 3:35:27 Yeah, because I, I don't know if you, if you fall, but I follow another very similar concept of Drivechain, which is, uh, old coin, but this, uh, UTXO based, uh, blockchain, uh, you know, I don't want to mentioning names here, but, uh, I'm. 3:35:47 There was one of, uh, what was the one, uh, Q Tom or quantum or whatever. 3:35:53 No, it's, it's avalanche. 3:35:56 Oh, avalanche. Yeah. Yeah. 3:35:58 And avalanche came, came out exactly after the block wars and they created, uh, I think Bitcoin ABC and the founder, uh, created later on avalanche, which contains the, the UTXO based, uh, settlement layer. 3:36:15 They're like a multi, multi chain. 3:36:17 They have a settlement layer. 3:36:19 Then they have, um, um, staking glare for validation and stuff and, uh, another EVM. 3:36:25 Uh, but on top of that, they, they have called subnets, which are similar to, to sidechains. 3:36:32 So whoever wants to create, uh, uh, this way, um, their blockchain, they can be public, private, uh, customizable fully and stuff like that, you know, but this kind of, uh, EVM based in the extent, and they can, they can be connected to any other chain can be utilized any other VM or script or, you know, so it's kind of like, uh, I mean, the, the, the example, what I'm trying to, to bring is to. 3:37:01 To, uh, bring this information. 3:37:04 So people realize that something is happening around Bitcoin and, uh, if a Drivechain is not enabled, you know, the, the things will go away from, uh, you know, to other chains. 3:37:17 So like, I will use a kind of, um, metaphorical, uh, comparison. 3:37:24 Like if you, if you buy something, you know, and then you discover something is better later on, you know, you say, oh, I bought now I, I spend my money. 3:37:33 So I stay with this, you know, so it's kind of like, uh. 3:37:36 Yeah, they, I think that would be called like the, uh, the sunk cost fallacy, meaning like, so that's the idea, like, let's say you, well, it's like perfectly in crypto, you, you bought some shit coin and then it went down 95% and you thought, oh, well, I've already lost this much, but meanwhile, like you still could save 5% of your money, you know, so it's kind of like, uh, 3:38:03 it's not like 5% of your money, but you think, uh, or like you've worked, uh, you know, you worked on building a project for a year and then you realize that it's not going to work or it's not, you know, going to come up to spec or whatever. 3:38:16 And, um, you know, and then you say, well, I better just keep going and finish it anyway, even though something like that. Yeah. Yeah. 3:38:26 Uh, basically the, the, the, the lead side coin bill, a sidechain builder. Um, one of the co-founders of the, of the LayerTwo Labs company, Cryptax. He's basically the one who built tip 300 and done the code, uh, today. 3:38:45 And, uh, so you have any questions for him? 3:38:48 Yeah. Sorry. I just joined in. I heard the end of a question, but I didn't hear the whole question. If you want me to try to answer it, you can repeat. 3:38:56 The most interesting one of the last few minutes would be 10. Is it possible to build a private, uh, blockchain on top of Bitcoin with this 300? 3:39:07 Yeah, you could do that because the sidechain implementation is completely up to the sidechain implementer. You could have like a chase bank sidechain that they have to approve every transaction on. They have to approve the withdrawals, everything like that. 3:39:23 Yeah. Actually you, you want to say can be customizable. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, very good point to, you know, like to when, when we have you and, you know, talking with people to, to kind of, uh, have that mind. 3:39:43 Yeah. And I think I agree. The issue with that would be in incentivizing miners to activate that and mine it. And I heard a suggestion that they might just pay them to do it. And I agree with that. I think that that's how it would work. 3:39:57 Yeah. Yeah, obviously. Because even, even if the transaction, let's say, uh, I'm the miner who wants to mine that sidechain and nobody wants to mine and I can't mine the first block or second block, I will mine on the third block or fourth block or whatever. Yeah. Like it will be longer, but again, it will be mined. 3:40:17 Yeah. And I, I think there's some cool ideas that could exist with private sidechains like that. I'm, I'm personally more interested in the totally decentralized ones, but with Drivechain, everybody can get what they want at the same time without having to agree with each other. And you don't have to use the private sidechain if you don't want to. Like, I probably won't, but other people can. 3:40:40 Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was just talking about, let's say, I don't know, accounting or, uh, uh, uh, supply chain or something like that because, uh, you know, the sensitive data, it's not kind of, you know, they, they can be private, but again, they, they have the decentralized security from Bitcoin itself. So it's kind of, you know. 3:41:04 Yeah, I agree. And the companies love to use, uh, Bitcoin security because it's the most secure chain. So they'd be able to say that they're using the power of Bitcoin for their private sidechain. So I think that that would be a big, that'd be big for them and for Bitcoin. So it's a mutually beneficial thing. 3:41:25 Yeah, exactly. Because just a few days ago, I, I, I read that, uh, let's say, uh, London Stock Exchange want to use blockchain for, uh, probably their exchange settlement or, you know, so for example, they can, they can create sidechain and if they can do private, it's a perfect solution for them, you know? 3:41:47 Yeah, I could see blocks. 3:41:49 Yeah, but Bitcoin will get volume transactions and, I mean, through, through Drivechain, but again, goes to Bitcoin. 3:41:58 A pseudonym. Did you have a question? 3:42:00 Yeah, there's a technical aspect of Drivechain I don't understand yet is, um, how do miners on Bitcoin chain are incentivized not to reverse like many blocks of the sidechain is, or the fee that they collect being, uh, withheld. And like, if they were to reorg many blocks, would they lose the sum of all these blocks? 3:42:30 Or how does that work? 3:42:33 The sidechain reorganization is independent of main chain reorganization. It'd be possible for main chain miners to collect fees of a sidechain reorg without even knowing that the reorg is happening. 3:42:51 Sorry, can you repeat that? 3:42:54 Well, the main chain doesn't need to reorg in order for the sidechain to reorg. 3:43:00 So they can continue to collect transaction fees while the sidechain is reorging. 3:43:06 But my issue is with finality, because with Bitcoin, miners have a huge incentive to push the block as soon as possible, and they have capital invested in mining equipment. 3:43:20 But if I'm a regular participant on the sidechain, and the Drivechain, and I want to make a big transaction, let's say like a million dollars, like, how am I supposed to assess that my $1 million is not a big enough incentive to pay a miner on the side to reorg it, for example? 3:43:45 Well, it's the same on the Bitcoin main chain. The sidechain miners have to continue to extend the valid chain to collect fees. There's a maturity for the payouts that they receive. 3:44:02 But at the end of the day, isn't it the miner on the Bitcoin main chain that decides to reorg stuff? 3:44:11 The sidechain block creators can reorg the sidechain without the main chain cooperating. 3:44:19 But that just seems worse to me, right? Because let's say I send a million dollars on a Drivechain, and then on a Drivechain I have like 30 equivalent blocks of confirmation. 3:44:38 So to reorg the sidechain, 30 blocks would require 30 main chain blocks also committing to that sidechain. 3:44:50 And in a reorganization, your transaction will not disappear or anything, it will just move blocks. Like if any time a main chain reorganization has happened, the Bitcoin miners re-include the transactions. The people's transactions aren't actually affected. 3:45:11 No, but that's assuming there's another end of the transaction that is not reversible. It's not like there's a financial incentive to reverse a transaction. 3:45:27 Let's say I just gave away the car, the guy took off with the car, and now the Bitcoin goes back in his wallet. That doesn't really help me. 3:45:38 Well, the miners on the sidechain can't take your money from you. You still control the coins with your keys. 3:45:47 No, but let's say I sold my car, I got the coins, I gave my car, and now the coins also go back to the sender. 3:45:56 So I need to wait a long time. I can't wrap my head yet. How can I assess the time? 3:46:14 In order for the sidechain to make blocks, it has to include a special output in the coinbase of a main chain block. So it's got a 10 minute average block time just like the main chain. There can't be more than a one block reorg without multiple main chain blocks. You can't pay somebody to reorg back 10 blocks or anything like that. 3:46:44 I guess I'm visual, I don't get it. When I think of finality on Bitcoin, I'm thinking of all the miners that have equipment that they don't want to lose. So if you change the rule, they would devalue the equipment. 3:47:03 And also, this much energy is spent in one block, and then I'm at two blocks, three blocks. And then I know they can't reorg without losing all the future fee and risk. Nobody's going to follow their block. They have to have 51%. 3:47:24 Yeah, there are. 3:47:54 Because there's no equipment. There's less at stake. 3:47:57 Well, there's the Bitcoin mining equipment. It's using Bitcoin mining proof of work to move the chain forward. And they're also sacrificing all future BMM income and the withdrawal transaction fees. 3:48:12 Not to mention, it's likely they're sacrificing some value of Bitcoin in and of itself because it's likely to have a negative market reaction to any sort of shenanigans like that. 3:48:25 And the miners are actually the most exposed to the Bitcoin price because they're the most illiquid and the most have, in many cases, the most capital put up up front that is illiquid. 3:48:43 They're buying in very large quantities forward Bitcoin, like deliverable forwards. So the miners are usually the most exposed stakeholder to the price of Bitcoin of all stakeholders, more so than even a hodler or microstrategies or whatever. 3:49:05 So if I do a transaction on this Drivechain, I guess I have a big incentive to also be aware if there's any work done by validating my own chain, by running my own node, right? 3:49:22 You could easily check a block explorer if you don't want to do that. 3:49:27 I also think that you should come back and ask the question to Paul next time that he's here, next Friday. 3:49:38 Let's take a question. I thought maybe I can chime in. So pseudonym, what happens if this happens on the base layer? Let's say you're accepting a Bitcoin transaction and it gets reorged. 3:49:52 There's nothing you can really do if that happens on the base chain. But there's a reason why it doesn't happen. So why do you think it does not happen on the base layer? 3:49:59 Because the miner did build on the largest chain. 3:50:09 But if the miners want, they can reorg any receiving transaction that you get, right? 3:50:18 Yeah, but the main difference is that the electricity is already expensed and the equipment is owned and exists. But if Bitcoin didn't have that, they would just… 3:50:32 You're saying it's not economically viable for them to do that. But what if they were to send several thousand Bitcoins, let's say, to an exchange, sell it, and then reorg that transaction? They could do that, right? 3:50:51 No, because they can just make up Ashing Par. As with the Drivechain, you can just pay more fee, apparently. 3:50:58 I'm not saying in the Drivechain. I'm just saying on the base layer right now. 3:51:02 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They can't just make up the Ashing Par. 3:51:05 If miners have more than 50% collusion, like let's say 70% of the hash rate together, mining pools, whatever, miners, more than 50%, if they wanted to, they can send Bitcoins to an exchange, sell them, and then reorg that transaction. 3:51:22 Yeah, and then they will lose all the equipment. 3:51:25 They're still going to own their equipment. They'll still own the Bitcoin because they reorged it, and they'll potentially maybe even get the cash out on the exchange. Maybe not. Maybe that will be hostage. 3:51:39 Yeah, but they own billions in hardware. No exchange is going to accept one confirmation for a billion dollars if they're aware that there's some centralization. 3:51:50 That's correct, but if you have more than 50% of the hash rate, it doesn't matter how many confirmations, you can still reorg it. If you have, let's say, 70% of the hash rate colluding, you can reorg 10 blocks, you can reorg 50 blocks, you can really reorg 100 blocks. 3:52:02 It doesn't matter. It's arbitrary because you have more hash rate than anybody else, so you can eventually reorg the whole chain. It will take time to go farther back, but eventually you can reorg even 100 blocks, a week worth of blocks, as long as you have more majority of the chain. 3:52:16 So they can do it. 3:52:17 Yeah, but if this happened, Bitcoin does not exist. 3:52:21 Well, it still exists and it can still continue. It's a rhetorical question. I'm asking why it doesn't happen. I would say it doesn't happen because economically, they're not incentivized to do that because then they're hurting Bitcoin and they're hurting, like you said, their hardware. 3:52:38 So they're potentially hurting their future revenue. 3:52:42 Yeah. 3:52:44 So I think that that's similar to what is kind of securing the Drivechain. If the Drivechain is successful, then they're getting future revenue from it. And most likely, if it's successful, they're going to be getting way more future revenue from the Drivechain than from the base layer because the Drivechain can scale more and several Drivechains can scale even more. 3:53:02 If you think about it, it can be thousands of times more fees that they're getting than on the base layer if Drivechains are successful. Now, if they try to mess with Drivechains, either by stealing or reorging or whatever, they're in a way making the trust assumptions of Drivechains lower. 3:53:18 Now, less people will trust them. Most likely, everybody will not trust it because there's starting to be shenanigans on that side. So now they're losing all of that revenue. And if they're losing all that revenue, then they don't have an economic incentive to do that. 3:53:31 Just like they don't have an economic incentive to mess with the base layer, which they can, which we already established they can if they wanted to, if they had a collusion. 3:53:37 So the same way, if they can do it on Drivechain, they wouldn't want to because the fees that they're generating from the Drivechain would actually be even more than they would be getting on the base layer. But it's a good question. And I definitely think you should ask. 3:53:49 But they have to validate and run the Drivechain node to even be aware of whether they are reorging or not. Because I've heard many times that they're just going with whoever pays the most fees. So if they only do that, they might reorg by accident. 3:54:07 Well, just one block wouldn't matter because then what happens is everybody's going to be like, hey, that's that's the incorrect hash, right? Because everybody on the Drivechain, whoever is running it will know that that's incorrect. 3:54:21 So they can't really say this by mistake. You'll be like, nope, that's incorrect. Everybody will know that's incorrect. That's not the longest chain. And then you can hit them up and be like, hey, why'd you do this? This is not the longest chain. You should build off this chain. But it is a good question. I just thought I'd throw in my share. I definitely don't have all the answers. 3:54:44 Yeah, I agree. I also just want to point out no matter how much fees they pay, they can only reorg back one block at a time per main chain block. And also when you're doing BMM, you are paying the people who do have all the hardware in order to do that. And there would be main chain miners who do run the sidechains. And so they won't even use BMM. They'll just validate the sidechain. 3:55:10 They'll include the block hashes and they will know if there's a reorg and they won't want to do that because of the same incentives that make them extend the main chain. 3:55:21 And also definitely ask Paul next Friday. 3:55:25 Because this is more of an incentives question than a code question, and he could answer that better. 3:55:31 Great, thanks. I've been following for a while now. 3:55:34 Yeah, cool. 3:55:35 I appreciate it. 3:55:40 Thank you. 3:55:41 So, Kryptex, can you speak to if DIP300 was merged tomorrow, what sidechains are available basically that you've already built at launch? 3:56:06 And also, can you describe after that how the sidechain template works and how easy or difficult it is to just copy any random asset on CoinMarketCap? 3:56:20 Yeah, so right now we have the Thunder sidechain, which is a scaling sidechain with high transaction throughput. 3:56:28 And we intend to also have a lightning network on top of that. 3:56:32 And then we also have a Zcash sidechain, which you can use all of Zcash features on. 3:56:38 We also have an Ethereum sidechain. 3:56:41 You can use all of Ethereum's features like you can connect it to MetaMask and things like that. 3:56:46 And we also are reviving bit names, and we have that working now. 3:56:53 And I think it's available to download right now on the website. 3:56:56 It was just uploaded a few hours ago. 3:56:59 And actually, if you go to drivechain.info forward slash releases, you'll see the new updated software that just got posted. 3:57:11 We have something called the DriveNet Launcher. 3:57:15 If you've ever used Steam on your computer, it's supposed to be similar to that, where you can install the Bitcoin main chain, and then you can install all of the sidechains that we have working right now. 3:57:29 In addition to the sidechains I named already, we also have a BitAssets sidechain, which is used for NFTs and tokens and things like that. 3:57:40 And it's not finished yet, but with a Hivemind prediction market sidechain, it will also be usable very soon. 3:57:48 And definitely by the time BIP300 gets activated, it'll be ready. 3:57:52 So there's a lot of cool stuff people can use. 3:57:55 And I have no idea what kind of new stuff people will make, so there might be some new ideas that nobody has thought of that will be even more exciting. 3:58:03 Like the private sidechains idea. 3:58:05 Who knows what people will do with that. 3:58:08 We have two different ways people can create sidechains. 3:58:13 There's a C++ sidechain template. 3:58:16 It's a fork of Bitcoin Core, so it makes it pretty easy to copy any altcoin that is a fork of Bitcoin Core, like Zcash is. 3:58:25 And then for other coins, like Ethereum, we have a Rust version of the sidechain template. 3:58:30 And that lets you basically add a library to any altcoin that will convert it into a Bitcoin sidechain. 3:58:37 So it is now limited to 21 million coins, and you can deposit and withdraw from it. 3:58:43 So it's pretty cool. 3:58:45 Nikita, one of the developers, is working on the Rust version, and I made the C++ version. 3:58:50 Both of them are available to download at drivechain.info. 3:58:54 And if anybody out there is trying to fork any existing altcoin, or has some kind of new idea and they want help, we're always available in the telegram to help with debugging and things like that. 3:59:09 And what are your thoughts on maybe what other things might be forked? 3:59:15 Obviously, you only have so many hours in the day, but I assume, I mean, almost certainly, once Drivechain is merged into Bitcoin, you're going to have a lot of eyes on it and a lot more awareness of the ability to clone assets and do these things on top of Bitcoin. 3:59:34 What do you think might be some of the low-hanging fruit that would have some demand or be implemented? 3:59:42 We've been looking at things like SiaCoin and FileCoin, because some people like to use the file storage on the blockchain. 3:59:51 More privacy chains besides just Zcash would be good. 3:59:56 I think that RSK, which is currently one of the most successful merged mine sidechains, would also become a Drivechain pretty quickly. 4:00:05 They have an entire team of developers, and I think that they'd be able to pull that off really fast. 4:00:11 I personally think there'd be like 10 successful sidechains. 4:00:22 Some people think that the 256 limit isn't nearly enough, though, so there's probably a lot of ideas I haven't thought of. 4:00:30 But there's nothing preventing sidechains on top of the sidechains? 4:00:37 Nope, there's an infinite amount of sidechains possible. There could be a sidechain created for creating more sidechains. 4:00:46 How does Interchain Lightning Channels or Bilateral Payment Channels work? 4:00:56 Other sidechains could have a Lightning Network that can connect back to the other sidechains that also have Lightning Networks. 4:01:05 Thunder even could serve as a hub between all of the sidechains. 4:01:10 And then there will be exchanges, like Sideshift.ai is a great example that was actually created initially because of Drivechain, 4:01:20 where people would be able to just instantly swap coins between chains. 4:01:24 Cool, I think Tryptonomics has come up. Do you have a question, Tryptonomics? 4:01:38 Sorry, what? Did you guys call me? 4:01:42 I just thought you had just come up, so I assumed that maybe you had something to bring up. 4:01:48 But it's no problem if not. 4:02:18 Thank you. 4:02:59 Hello, so any other questions for Cryptax out there? 4:03:09 Anyone in the chat want to join as a speaker? 4:03:17 I think another type of sidechain we might see is 4:03:20 those Ordinals guys are very creative, and they're having some issues working on the Bitcoin mainchain right now. 4:03:26 And I know that people like to have the images and other resources embedded on the first layer, 4:03:33 but for some things it might actually be easier and better for them to develop more creative software on a second layer. 4:03:39 So I'm really excited to see what the Ordinals group of people might do, because there's a lot of creativity right there. 4:03:50 I just wanted to know what your favorite Pokemon is and why? 4:03:55 Psyduck. Psyduck because he can copy everything the other Pokemon does. 4:04:03 That's very fitting. I know my picture is Pikachu, so that might be a little confusing, but I do love Psyduck. 4:04:15 I wanted to call Drivechain Psyduck, actually. 4:04:18 So is that like Pilot Pikachu or Flight Attendant Pikachu? 4:04:22 This is a Tokyo Station Security Pikachu. They sold it at the Tokyo train station one year. 4:04:32 Very collectible. 4:04:39 Hey, what's up guys? 4:04:43 Hello. 4:04:46 Hello. 4:04:48 Crypto Axe, are you familiar with Bison Labs? 4:04:56 No, sorry. 4:04:58 So basically they've created zero-knowledge roll-ups on Bitcoin. 4:05:04 And so you could bridge over your Ordinal, well right now it's only Bitmap, and then you get a mirror token. 4:05:11 And on that token, you could create liquidity pools eventually and Solidity smart contracts, as well as Clarity. 4:05:21 In terms of when you were saying if you can bridge Ordinals over on Allure too, it's pretty exciting. 4:05:30 Yeah, definitely check them out. I don't know the space, I'm just responding to what I heard you say, so I hope I didn't... 4:05:37 Oh no, I agree. I'll check that out later. It sounds cool. 4:05:41 So Mr. Ordinal guy, do you think that doing things like that or putting Ordinal in Drivechains, do you think that there's some sort of luxury or scarcity value that people will want to pay just to have it on the mainchain? 4:05:59 Well, on the mainchain it's different, right? You can't really have full DeFi on the mainchain, there's no way. 4:06:05 You can't write smart contracts, you can't really create liquidity pools. 4:06:09 I'm talking about BRC20s, and what they're doing is really creating an NFT trading pool, in a way, in a sense, a liquidity pool, with automated AMMs. 4:06:22 So in a rollup, it's kind of cool, it's really interesting. 4:06:28 They already have a bridge, it's on the testnet, it's interesting, it's super simple to use too, so I'll see how it develops and what it turns into. 4:06:38 I think it will turn into something big. 4:06:42 Yeah, that's pretty cool, I'll check it out. 4:06:45 I could see the coolest Ordinals staying on Layer 1, and then Layer 2 Ordinal stuff being for smaller collectibles or a huge issuance of them, because I like the Bored Apes, there's a million of them. 4:07:01 Maybe you don't want all of them on the mainchain. 4:07:03 Or maybe you can do the trading of them on a second layer, instead of having to make mainchain transactions and spending a ton of money and waiting. 4:07:12 Right, yeah, exactly. 4:07:14 I mean, that's one of the things it enables. 4:07:16 Yeah, that'd be cool. 4:07:24 Well, I mean, if I can also show myself, if I may, I don't know what the rules are here, but I've also created a very small advertising platform for Ordinals and any new projects that are coming up on Ordinals. 4:07:39 Which is just completed, and I'm going to be launching it tomorrow. 4:07:43 I'll be making an announcement, and there'll be a space party, so everyone here is welcome. 4:07:55 That's awesome. 4:07:58 Yeah, cool. 4:08:00 I think a lot of people that are pro-Drivechains are sympathetic to Ordinals and vice versa. 4:08:12 I think that's very common. 4:08:14 I think right now Ordinals numbering thing that's going on can use that hand from anywhere, you know. 4:08:20 But hopefully it resolves soon. 4:08:25 Can you explain whatever drama or problems are going on? 4:08:29 I'm not familiar. 4:08:31 Well, Ordinals are sequenced with inscription numbers, which is basically really a mutable structure, right? 4:08:39 And indexers, which are not decentralized, kind of centralized in specific entities, like certain people run the indexers. 4:08:50 The way the protocol is written, there's something called cursed inscription. 4:08:54 Instead of inscribing on the first one, the inscription got first set of each block, or first set, it got inscribed on the second one, which causes discrepancy. 4:09:04 Which basically caused the numbering scheme to not be sequenced properly with the satoshis in a way, you know. 4:09:14 So indexers have to keep account of that. 4:09:17 And as the numbers right now is 35 million or 33 million, as numbers get bigger and bigger, it becomes a lot more expensive for indexers to run. 4:09:27 So they need to do something to fix that sequencing and keep it that way, which will require a change, right? 4:09:35 And that creates a little bit of complexity, but we'll see how it gets resolved. 4:09:41 What are the options for the change? 4:09:43 Well, there's quite a few. 4:09:45 I think Shizzy can talk about it in the audience better than me. 4:09:48 And there are many other people who can. 4:09:50 There's a bunch of proposals. 4:09:52 I think one of them is just keep it the way it is. 4:09:54 The other one is to have two numbers, which no one really supports, have an inscription number and a real number. 4:10:02 The real number is what the indexers will run with, and the inscription numbers will carry on like the way it is. 4:10:06 Again, I'm talking in broad generalities based on things that I've heard, so I don't know exactly concretely what the most prominent one is. 4:10:15 So yeah, there's a bunch of them, but those were the ones that I heard about. 4:10:31 But none of these require... 4:10:33 I mean, so this is like an ongoing kind of controversy over the proposed solutions? 4:10:41 Correct, yeah. 4:10:44 Do you have any opinions over what to do about this? 4:10:46 Yeah, we don't know what's going to come to formation of this, but yeah, it's ongoing right now, I think. 4:10:52 Up until last night, it was. 4:10:56 Still is. 4:10:59 Interesting. Did you have any other questions? 4:11:09 This is very humble, but this is one of the top minds, really, in the industry. 4:11:21 If I might say so myself. 4:11:24 So you guys are making a layer 2 on Bitcoin? Like a Drivechain, right? 4:11:34 Yeah, it's a proposal for a soft fork of Bitcoin to add two BIPs. 4:11:40 One of them to create a hashrate escrow, which is a way that Proof-of-Work controls a specific set of UTXOs that are used to deposit and withdraw from the sidechain. 4:11:51 And then BIP301, Blind Merged Mining, which lets us merge mine the sidechains without mainchain miners having to validate them if they don't want to. 4:11:59 But they also can if they want to. 4:12:07 That sounds cool. 4:12:09 I'm not very technical, you know, so I just work with a lot of people. 4:12:16 I come from a very different chain, Ethereum. 4:12:22 I don't know the technical side a lot, but I know that Bitcoin is what it is based on a lot of efforts that were made. 4:12:33 I don't mean to interrupt, but something interesting is coming from being into Ethereum and other chains and not having had experience with Bitcoin. 4:12:47 I assume then the emergence or popularity of ordinals kind of got you more into Bitcoin? 4:12:55 Correct, yeah. 4:12:58 And I can tell you from data that there's 350,000 new people that came into Bitcoin because of ordinals. 4:13:06 So yeah, I wouldn't be here like the way I am in the capacity I am if there weren't ordinals. 4:13:16 And so now is this kind of your primary focus? 4:13:21 Yeah, it is. 4:13:23 And I'm looking into Zika privacy right now, like how to make transactions private on the zero knowledge. 4:13:31 Like to provide a feature, so I'm kind of trying to work with some people to make that feature. 4:13:37 So yeah, that's kind of what I'm working on. 4:13:43 Yeah, you said you came from Ethereum. 4:13:46 One of the things Drivechain lets us do is copy all of the features of Ethereum into a Bitcoin sidechain. 4:13:52 So the EVM won't be on mainchain. Validation of smart contracts won't be on mainchain. 4:14:00 It all gets quarantined into one UTXO, essentially. 4:14:06 And so you can have a ZK sidechain, you can have an Ethereum sidechain, you can have all kinds of stuff like that. 4:14:15 Yeah, that sounds really cool. 4:14:19 So I'm in a startup team, a lot of people are doing this. 4:14:23 Although a lot of times I'm listening to them and a lot of things go over my head because they go into the technical details of it. 4:14:31 So yeah, it's really interesting. 4:14:35 I think Bitcoin is going to absorb a lot of DeFi from other chains. 4:14:42 They were the testing grounds in a way. 4:14:44 At least it feels that way. 4:14:50 We have the ability to with the BIP300 proposal. 4:14:54 And we're closer to activating it than ever before. 4:14:58 So what was it about Ordinals that interested you over focusing on Ethereum NFTs? 4:15:10 Well, I never was in the Ethereum NFTs. 4:15:14 I was really in the Ethereum DeFi side. 4:15:16 I dabbled a little bit. I collected a couple of NFTs. 4:15:18 But they were more like, oh, it gives me access to AI, which was a long time ago, even before AI trend came into being. 4:15:25 They had these language models or whatnot, which I thought was cool. 4:15:27 That's the only NFT that I got, apart from one more Somnium Space Cubes. 4:15:33 Because I know they were at some point working with Tesla or something. 4:15:37 That's the only reason I got their NFT. 4:15:39 But they're working on cool technology in terms of biosensors and whatnot. 4:15:43 But the reason why I got into Ordinals is really because of the numbering scheme. 4:15:49 I've been in so many different projects, in, out, around DeFi. 4:15:54 I was there even before Metamask was there. 4:15:56 And I'm sure you guys were here for way before. 4:15:58 But I was just trading those coins, DeFi learning. 4:16:00 It was really exciting to me when Ethereum was kind of coming into being their DeFi, you know, getting prominence. 4:16:10 So when Ordinals came out, it was really the numbering scheme that got me. 4:16:15 Even though I was working with a developer, he was doing all this minting for me. 4:16:21 The Ordinals that I wanted. 4:16:23 He was like, why are you doing this? 4:16:25 This is going to go to zero. 4:16:27 He was just baffled that this was even happening. 4:16:29 He literally was like, you're stupid, in a way. 4:16:31 You could kind of feel it. 4:16:33 But he was really nice, though. 4:16:35 I'm not going to lie. 4:16:37 So it was interesting for me to see him do that. 4:16:40 But then Ordinals hit $10 million. 4:16:42 Now they're at $30 million. 4:16:44 There was just something about that numbering scheme that I think reeled in a lot more people than from the whole other ecosystems. 4:16:52 It was really the inscription numbers. 4:16:54 If there were no inscription numbers, I don't think Ordinals would be around. 4:16:56 It's like a weird thing. 4:16:58 Because the market was in a state where everyone was kind of like, oh. 4:17:05 And then there were Ordinals with numbers. 4:17:07 And NFT. 4:17:09 So the smaller one will be better. 4:17:11 And then BRC20 came around. 4:17:13 And that was a little bit of a fad. 4:17:15 But I don't think it was completely that. 4:17:17 You know what I mean? 4:17:19 I think there will be something that will come off of it. 4:17:21 And then now we're seeing early kind of things of, okay, where will the DeFi go if the liquidity from Bitcoin goes into DeFi like it did for Ethereum? 4:17:34 DeFi is kind of that parody with Ethereum, I think. 4:17:36 In terms of market cap, if that does happen, or probably not going to happen with Bitcoin, but even absorbs 10%, then what will thrive? 4:17:46 That will require some layer 2, something. 4:17:48 So we'll see how that unrolls. 4:17:50 I think that's kind of where we are. 4:17:56 I'm not going to try to explain how it works or anything. 4:17:59 But if you're interested in the inscription in Ordinals numbers, you might find Tonal Bitcoin. 4:18:03 That's T-O-N-A-L Bitcoin. 4:18:05 Really interesting. 4:18:07 It was one of the first altcoins. 4:18:09 It was developed by Luke Jr. 4:18:11 And it's an altcoin in the sense that it's a different way of numbering the Bitcoin amounts. 4:18:15 And it's pretty cool. 4:18:17 But you should check it out if you like the Ordinals numbers. 4:18:19 Yeah, I'll definitely check it. 4:18:21 Tonal Bitcoin? 4:18:23 Yeah, Tonal Bitcoin. 4:18:25 It's a fun thing in Bitcoin. 4:18:28 It's a fun thing in Bitcoin history for anybody to read about. 4:18:30 Gotcha. 4:18:32 Yeah, for sure. 4:18:44 Well, guys, thank you for having me up here and speaking. 4:18:46 I'm going to hit the gym now. 4:18:48 I was driving home, so this was lovely. 4:18:50 Yeah, nice talking to you. 4:18:52 Nice talking to you. 4:18:54 Hit the gym. 4:18:57 I'll see you guys. 4:18:59 Cryptex's Tonal Bitcoin. 4:19:01 Well, thank you for coming. 4:19:03 It was interesting to hear the perspective, 4:19:05 especially because 4:19:07 it's just kind of interesting 4:19:09 in light of the 4:19:11 kind of current Bitcoin dogmatic narrative 4:19:13 about 4:19:15 hearing your story 4:19:17 and about 350,000 people 4:19:19 who've come into Bitcoin 4:19:21 because of Ordinals. 4:19:23 Yeah, yeah, that's facts. 4:19:26 So that's really interesting to me, too. 4:19:28 And the thing is, those 350,000 people 4:19:30 don't make a lot of transactions. 4:19:32 That's the thing. 4:19:34 I think the transaction rate is 4:19:36 about 3-4,000. 4:19:38 So we'll see how that goes 4:19:40 per day. 4:19:46 It's a lot more than we had before. 4:19:49 To see if Bitcoin can use 4:19:51 some more transactions, 4:19:53 to be honest. 4:19:55 I would say 4:19:57 I've been very bullish 4:19:59 for a long time, 4:20:01 but probably the most 4:20:03 irresponsibly bullish, 4:20:05 honestly. 4:20:07 But probably the most 4:20:09 bearish thing in Bitcoin, 4:20:11 at least today, 4:20:13 which is one of the most 4:20:15 bearish things I've seen, 4:20:18 is the kind of cryptofees.info 4:20:20 to see how much more 4:20:22 fees are generated 4:20:24 on Ethereum 4:20:26 versus Bitcoin. 4:20:28 It's not good. 4:20:30 Getting our ass kicked. 4:20:32 No, it makes me sad. 4:20:34 It's too bad. 4:20:36 We used to dominate by a lot. 4:20:38 It wasn't even a comparison. 4:20:40 And it was easy back then to say 4:20:42 that Ethereum was a bullshit scam. 4:20:44 Now it's kind of flipped the other way. 4:20:47 Yeah. 4:20:51 Ordinals have made Bitcoin fun again 4:20:53 lately, I feel like. 4:20:55 So I welcome that. 4:20:59 Can you explain a little bit 4:21:01 tonal Bitcoin? I know 4:21:03 Luke Jr. is like 4:21:05 into tonal numbering, 4:21:07 which I don't really understand. 4:21:09 Yeah, the tonal 4:21:11 numbering system is what is used in 4:21:13 music and things like that. 4:21:16 It's more easy to convert it 4:21:18 into hexadecimal, but 4:21:20 essentially what tonal Bitcoin 4:21:22 does is divide the 4:21:24 satoshis further down 4:21:26 into smaller units. 4:21:28 Here, I have the list, actually. 4:21:30 We've got 4:21:32 TAM Bitcoin, 4:21:34 BONG Bitcoin, 4:21:36 MILL Bitcoin, 4:21:38 SAND Bitcoin, 4:21:40 TON Bitcoin, 4:21:42 which is the normal, not devised unit. 4:21:44 TON, BITCOIN, SAND, 4:21:46 BITCOIN, MILL, and BITCOIN, BONG. 4:21:48 So it's a way of making 4:21:50 the satoshis more divisible. 4:21:52 And so it's a way of representing 4:21:54 more units out of the 4:21:56 unit on the chain, which kind of 4:21:58 reminds me of ordinals a little bit, 4:22:00 but I also don't understand how 4:22:02 either of these things work totally. 4:22:04 I think everyone 4:22:06 should read about it, though. It's really interesting. 4:22:10 And there's example 4:22:12 code on the Bitcoin.it 4:22:14 wiki, so you can 4:22:16 even see how you would 4:22:18 write a client 4:22:20 to validate these things outside of Bitcoin, 4:22:22 which is a 4:22:24 pretty interesting idea. 4:22:28 People should also read 4:22:30 about Counterparty, 4:22:32 if they haven't heard of that before, 4:22:34 because that was another Bitcoin project 4:22:36 that did client validation 4:22:38 outside of the Bitcoin validation, 4:22:40 and I think that's pretty cool. 4:22:42 I was a very active, early 4:22:44 Counterparty user, but of course, 4:22:46 all my rare pepes, 4:22:48 I left them on some old phone 4:22:50 that the screen broke, and 4:22:52 on and on. So then when they mooned, 4:22:54 I was out a few million dollars, 4:22:56 I'm sure. 4:22:58 Rare pepe also tore apart the best 4:23:00 Bitcoin podcast ever, so I don't even like to hear about it. 4:23:04 Well, yeah. 4:23:06 I recall that. 4:23:08 I think that was probably just an excuse. 4:23:10 Yeah, it was. 4:23:12 People don't know, 4:23:14 referring to Bitcoin 4:23:16 Uncensored, which I guess circa 4:23:18 20, I think it ended in 4:23:20 2015 or 16, right? 4:23:22 Yeah. 2015, but 4:23:24 definitely in those early days, 4:23:26 or I think maybe they started 4:23:28 late 2013, but it 4:23:30 was, I think, by far 4:23:32 the best content. 4:23:34 It was the original 4:23:36 Scambusters as well. 4:23:38 And what's funny is that they were calling 4:23:40 shitcoins and 4:23:42 altcoins scams before everyone else, 4:23:44 but they also then were the first to kind of 4:23:48 give warning that it was getting 4:23:50 too big, and that 4:23:52 it was going to get out of control. 4:23:54 Way before ICOs, they were saying, 4:23:56 yeah, there's something happening here, 4:23:58 and you need to watch out, because 4:24:00 this is not good for Bitcoin, and then 4:24:02 it was very prophetic. 4:24:04 Yeah, a lot of 4:24:06 people don't know that there was a pre-ICO 4:24:08 altcoin phase, where people 4:24:10 just posted these announcements on Bitcoin 4:24:12 Talk, and then they would privately 4:24:14 sell altcoins to people and other 4:24:16 shady stuff. 4:24:18 And then eventually the ICO 4:24:20 became a thing. 4:24:22 Yeah, so 4:24:24 back in the day, people would post 4:24:26 their new shitcoin onto 4:24:28 Bitcoin Talk, and 4:24:30 it was very, the most important 4:24:32 part of the launch was your forum 4:24:34 post. 4:24:36 There was a whole 4:24:38 wave, and it was 4:24:40 very brazen and very small cap 4:24:42 back then, like extremely small 4:24:44 cap, but 4:24:46 yeah, I remember I would 4:24:48 I was in a bunch of groups that would 4:24:50 like, they were 4:24:52 like these very open pump and dump 4:24:54 groups, but basically 4:24:56 they were dumping on you because they were already 4:24:58 in before they even jumped into 4:25:00 the group. And back then 4:25:02 everybody thought that like, fair launch was 4:25:04 the main thing, like, you know, this is 4:25:06 a fair launch coin, meaning that 4:25:08 they weren't 4:25:10 keeping any for themselves, right? 4:25:12 Yeah, but then they always did. 4:25:14 Yeah. 4:25:16 Yeah, so that was 4:25:18 why when 4:25:20 in 2017, when 4:25:22 they had the next kind of big bull market, 4:25:24 why I never 4:25:26 got into ICOs or shitcoins 4:25:28 despite back then, actually, there was a few 4:25:30 instances where I was offered 4:25:32 like, a lot of money to get 4:25:34 involved in some of these projects, 4:25:36 which in hindsight, I probably should have just done it anyway 4:25:38 because my thought was like, oh, that's 4:25:40 very scammy, it's not 4:25:42 good for my reputation 4:25:44 and all that, but 4:25:46 I didn't see like, I don't know, 4:25:48 Bitcoin becoming so 4:25:50 like the Bitcoin culture, 4:25:52 at least online, becoming so intolerable. 4:25:54 Me either. 4:25:56 Yeah, but 4:25:58 Twitter wasn't 4:26:00 really a thing back then. There wasn't much 4:26:02 all that much, like, relevant 4:26:04 discussion. It was like 4:26:06 the Reddit was really big until 4:26:08 like the block size war. I think that 4:26:10 was kind of the biggest thing after Bitcoin talk. 4:26:12 Yeah. 4:26:14 But anyway, yeah, I was 4:26:16 involved, I was a 4:26:18 heavy holder of all sorts of nonsense 4:26:20 shitcoins back in 2013. 4:26:22 I had 42, 4:26:24 which was a really interesting one, where there was only 4:26:26 42 coins. Oh, yeah. 4:26:28 21 million coins, there was 42 coins. 4:26:30 So each coin was worth like 4:26:32 5 Bitcoin or something. That's obviously 4:26:34 super valuable. Yeah, 4:26:36 exactly. And then 4:26:38 I actually had a ton of doge, which I lost 4:26:40 in 4:26:42 Kripsy, I believe. 4:26:44 Oh, I remember that, yep. 4:26:46 That guy's in jail, I think. 4:26:48 No, he's not in jail. 4:26:50 He ran off to China. Oh, 4:26:52 okay. And got away scot-free. 4:26:54 So, yeah, 4:26:56 so this was one of the original 4:26:58 exchange hacks for anybody 4:27:00 listening who wasn't privy 4:27:02 to getting hacked in Kripsy. 4:27:04 Yeah, it was a self-hack. 4:27:06 It was like a self-hack, but what they said 4:27:08 was that one of the 4:27:10 altcoins had 4:27:14 a software update, and somebody 4:27:16 had inserted a backdoor into the 4:27:18 node, into 4:27:20 the node software, and that 4:27:22 they were hosting that node software 4:27:24 on the same 4:27:26 server, that they were hosting their 4:27:28 Bitcoin and a bunch of other altcoins. 4:27:31 Their Bitcoin and a bunch of other altcoin nodes as well, so that their wallets, I mean to say, so that their attacker was able, through this altcoin node, to drain their Bitcoin wallets, which, you know, sounds very unbelievable. 4:27:45 Yeah. 4:27:45 And it's almost certain that what actually happened was the exchange owner basically just rug pulled. 4:27:51 It was like the original, one of the original rug pulls, but at the time, like the largest one, and so they actually only issued an arrest warrant for the guy like two years ago, so I assume they had been investigating him the whole time and actually looking for him, but Big Vern was his name. 4:28:10 Yep. 4:28:12 Big Vern. 4:28:14 Pretty much all Bitcoin services used to close by just disappearing with everybody's money. 4:28:21 Yeah, God only knows how many Doge I had over there, because Doge are literally worth absolutely nothing. 4:28:28 I mean, they were worth like, you know, whatever, like one hundred thousandth of a penny or something like that. 4:28:35 Yeah. 4:28:38 Maybe you'll be lucky like some of the Mt. Gox people and get a portion of it back one day. 4:28:43 No, they had some process for claim, filing a claim, I never did it. 4:28:47 Okay. 4:28:48 I didn't have any record of what was even in there. 4:28:50 Like in coin, which was, you know, they had these coins that were like there was like vampire werewolf and whatever coin. 4:28:57 Those were big for a while. 4:28:59 And so people don't remember that. 4:29:01 Maybe you remember Aurora coin. 4:29:03 So Aurora coin was the number two all coin for a long, long time. 4:29:08 And this was a coin that was the premise was that they were going to airdrop some allocation of Aurora coin to every of Iceland to try to, you know, prime the pump to catalyze this coin's adoption in the Icelandic market. 4:29:32 And that was a very that was a huge wave of all coins back then that started with Aurora coin. 4:29:38 And then they had, you know, all these other ones, Dorado coin, which is the same thing supposed to be for Spain and all sorts of stuff like that. 4:29:46 And that was a that was a huge wave at that time. 4:29:52 And so, you know, speculating in Aurora coin made made out huge. 4:29:57 Anyway, I don't know how much I don't know if we can if I can keep the stamina of Paul and go 24 hours straight. 4:30:04 But if anyone or anyone listening have any desire to come up on the stage and ask a question to the. 4:30:14 One of the most unsung geniuses of all of the crypto industry up here. 4:30:19 I want to give you a credit and congratulate you for the very nice Drivechain launcher. 4:30:27 It's so thank you. 4:30:29 Yeah, beautifully done. 4:30:31 So it's like I just I downloaded the the other one dimension with the full blockchain. 4:30:37 But now I just in five minutes, you know, download it and start the Drivechain. 4:30:44 So now I wanted to to suggest or encourage people to try it, you know, and see themselves how it works. 4:30:52 And yeah, that's that has been developed by a new developer named Jacob, who is doing GUI stuff for us. 4:31:00 And he's done a really awesome job already. 4:31:02 I just checked in our private group and there will be an update to that within the next couple of days. 4:31:08 So check back again and it will be improved even more. 4:31:11 And thank you. 4:31:12 Yeah, it's it's like even even you you can see the sidechains here and which one you want to kind of support. 4:31:20 Probably with the note will be kind of just a click download and will be kind of easy. 4:31:27 Yeah, it's very it's very nice. 4:31:29 I hope Bitcoin Core will will improve. 4:31:33 Well, if you have any if you have any issues with it or any suggestions, send us a message in our Drivechain chat telegram. 4:31:41 Oh, yeah. I'm I'm there. 4:31:43 Also, I'm there. 4:31:44 Yeah. 4:31:46 What I want to say, I tweeted the I just made a screenshot and tweeted the the the layout of the of the launcher open. 4:31:56 So my people can can see on on. 4:32:00 I see. 4:32:01 Cool. 4:32:02 It's like. 4:32:03 Yeah. 4:32:04 And you're you're bringing, you know, the the old the old old coins and all these scams like I lost money in in Bitcoin game. 4:32:14 And it was like 2014 or 15. 4:32:18 And, yeah, there was a so much stuff like that. 4:32:22 And, yeah. 4:32:24 Oh, everybody lost in. 4:32:26 I mean, not to lose, but everybody like this guy that like throw away or don't care about Dogecoin. 4:32:33 But we see what what happened in 2021. 4:32:37 I came to 70 cents. 4:32:39 You know, it's yeah. 4:32:41 People cannot predict the future of the market. 4:32:44 And Bitcoin needs to be able to be adaptable without ruining the values of the main chain. 4:32:50 And the few things about Bitcoin that we can all agree about, like the the supply. 4:32:57 the block time, things like that. 4:33:00 But we can change other things on a sidechain. 4:33:02 Yeah. 4:33:03 Yeah, absolutely. 4:33:04 I mean, it's the innovation need to need to go forward, you know, like it's a way to to do something from scratch. 4:33:12 And, you know, bringing, you know, a new technology from scratch to the market is a big deal. 4:33:19 Yeah. 4:33:20 And with collaboration, we can make Bitcoin the strongest and actually be able to stand up to future attacks, whereas right now it's in this super weak position where people are scared to even do anything with it. 4:33:34 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 4:33:35 And you was talking about Bitcoin and stuff like that. 4:33:38 I mean, they already exist, but, you know, with if the right change is is enabled, I think we'll bring more and more kind of new ways for people to be able to do things from scratch. 4:33:51 I mean, first of all, the blockchain, because the blockchain needs to be utilized. 4:33:56 So everything else. 4:33:57 But, you know, I am I'm hearing so sci-fi idea even like not to build something, but kind of a, you know, a new way to do things. 4:34:26 That's not possible, but I think it's possible with something like Drivechain or maybe something improved in the future. 4:34:32 Like even other networks to be on, you know, utilized something like a sidechain or so we have more decentralization, electricity grids, internet grids or stuff like that, you know. 4:34:46 But that's for far future probably. 4:34:51 Yeah, and I think all of that improvement to Bitcoin mining is also a net improvement to humanity because working to develop more efficient ways of harnessing electricity helps everybody, not just people using Bitcoin. 4:35:06 So we really want to increase the hash rate for the good of everything, include Bitcoin and everything else. 4:35:13 Yeah, I agree. 4:35:16 I agree. That's I mean, it's brilliant to tell you the truth. 4:35:20 When I when I first time saw a post blog post and I went from the beginning, like 2013 or something like that, I was like, oh, my God. 4:35:32 Like, why? Why we don't know more about this? 4:35:35 You know, like because kind of I don't know why, but I know you are on conferences and stuff like that, but was not much, much public, you know, around the space. 4:35:48 And it's good that you that you came, Mike, pushed more, you know, to to be like more publicly available. 4:35:57 Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. 4:36:00 All right. Well, did anybody else have a question? 4:36:06 Well, I encourage everybody to run the software because it'll actually answer a lot of questions anybody does have, and I think it's the best way to really get the idea. 4:36:21 And also. Coin News is really, really good feature, which for some reason, you know, Paul doesn't want to like discuss or like, you know, discuss it, but it's like, you know, in the in the test software and it's kind of, I think, like a hidden gem. 4:36:43 Yeah, it's a little bit of a hidden gem. 4:36:45 Coin News lets everybody have a news feed with different topics. 4:36:51 Like, for example, you could have a Japanese news weekly, a U.S. news weekly, cryptocurrency news daily. 4:36:58 And you can actually subscribe to different types of operations, transactions that show up in the memory pool and in the chain that have different types of news that you want to see or different types of messages that you want to see. 4:37:11 And so it's a way for people to, in a totally decentralized way, subscribe to different people's feeds or to different types of information that can't be censored. 4:37:24 And it's available already in our main chain software. 4:37:28 So if you run the Drivechain launcher and you install the main chain, you'll see a toolbar at the top. 4:37:34 And there's all kinds of extra stuff in there that lets you use Bitcoin in ways that Bitcoin Core doesn't let you do it. 4:37:42 Yeah. And also, please start the CPU mining so people can see how it was in the beginning of Bitcoin mining. 4:38:02 I copied from old versions of Bitcoin that I have the old CPU mining code back into Bitcoin so that you can mine again using your CPU just for fun. 4:38:14 And there's also a GUI tool so that you can see the visualization of how the mining works. 4:38:20 So you can actually see the leading zeros increasing up until you get to the proof of work requirement. 4:38:25 So it's kind of fun. 4:38:27 Of course, you're not going to be mining any main chain Bitcoin. 4:38:31 Yeah, obviously. But it's fun, you know, just to get back in time. 4:38:41 One of the things that's really important to Paul and me is that people experiment with the Bitcoin node and they actually use it. 4:38:48 And they really want a reason for it to be on their computer to encourage the network to grow and for people to learn how it works and to be excited by it. 4:38:57 And to really feel like there's something that they can do with it instead of just owning it and trying to make money. 4:39:03 You know, people should actually use it, too. 4:39:06 So when is it going live? 4:39:10 That's a great question. The pull request from Luke Jr. was opened a while ago and it's not completely finished yet. 4:39:21 But that version might be maybe that version will get merged in and have BIP9 signaling to activate like previous Bitcoin soft forks. 4:39:31 That's good. What's the time? What's the timeline on that? 4:39:36 I can't answer that question. You would have to ask Bitcoin Core that question. 4:39:42 You're tired of the gatekeepers. Yeah. 4:39:45 Awesome. Hey, how can we work on doing some interoperable stuff to do some other stuff with some with this Drivechain? 4:39:52 We can reach out to you on telegram or. 4:39:55 Yeah, if you guys join the Drivechain insiders telegram. 4:40:01 The telegram group. There's a ton of people in there that can answer questions all the time. 4:40:06 I think there was 700 people in there. 4:40:10 So, what is it now? 4:40:13 Yeah, I used the chat a little bit, but it's literally world. 4:40:19 Cool. 4:40:21 So, what are you guys going to do with that lockup mechanism that you guys currently have on using these Drivechains? 4:40:42 I mean, there's definitely a lot of people in the Bitcoin community that are not necessarily fond, but I don't know. 4:40:51 I think it's just a lack of education. 4:40:53 I just pretty much went last night and trolled the shit out of some Bitcoin people, but I wanted to get your input. 4:41:01 Yeah, the thing that is the most in common with detractors of Drivechain is that they haven't read the bips. 4:41:10 They haven't read the software. 4:41:12 They don't even want to try to understand how it works, and they have this kind of weird prejudgment that it's bad before trying to understand it. 4:41:20 I think… 4:41:25 We can't force them to understand it, so I'm open to any suggestions, but I think people like Paul and Henry have been doing a great job trying. 4:41:34 There's this other thing that I've seen that's pretty common. 4:41:38 It's like people have an ossified mentality where they say Bitcoin's perfect. 4:41:44 Nothing needs to happen with it, but they don't want to ossify layer one, so they don't want to change anything and it's perfect. 4:41:52 It's just there's a lot of doublespeak that comes out of people who are criticizing Drivechain as well. 4:41:59 Contradictory arguments, a lot of concern trolling, a lot of people jumping on the wave because it's very popular right now. 4:42:06 It's a very easy way to get a little bit of a following. 4:42:09 In my opinion, Bitcoin Core makes changes that are way more significant and, in my opinion, dangerous and controversial than drivechain. 4:42:19 They do that every day without anybody talking about it because it just gets merged in. 4:42:24 They'll do things like change how random number generation works. 4:42:27 They'll change the cryptography libraries around. 4:42:30 They'll change networking code. 4:42:32 They'll change validation code, and there's no BIP signaling for any of that. 4:42:38 It just happens, and if certain people do it, it gets merged right away, and nobody even knows about it. 4:42:45 People see the laser eyes and the cultishness as a virtue when it's really not. 4:42:55 It's really a huge amount of political influence. 4:42:58 It puts a lot of pressure on people who try to change things who aren't vetted, and nobody really knows who these people are in any case. 4:43:07 They're mostly a bunch of anonymous accounts. 4:43:10 It's actually a secret who has merge access to Bitcoin Core. 4:43:15 I personally do not know. 4:43:17 I'm a contributor, so I can see who's a member, but you can't tell who actually has merge access. 4:43:25 Go ahead. 4:43:27 No, go, go, go. 4:43:29 No, I'm just saying I just noticed that the main reason why they want to use the Drivechain, I see. 4:43:35 There really isn't anyone open to adding any additional application. 4:43:41 They say that it will destroy the base layer, but I try to argue with it, but sometimes it's better to troll. 4:43:52 The reality of it is that some people are more inclined to use lightning network and using swaps. 4:44:02 When I first heard about your guys' BIP300, and I know you guys have been talking about this since the mid-2000s, and now it's became kind of a mainstream in Bitcoin talks. 4:44:17 I just look at this as an opportunity to be able to... 4:44:21 Some people may not agree because they say, well, we don't want shit-coiners over here on Bitcoin. 4:44:27 But I look at it as a mechanism to be able to transfer economic energy over to Bitcoin than opposed to you using any type of mainstream centralized exchange or swap. 4:44:40 Yeah, exactly. 4:44:43 I look at it as a decentralized mechanism because until then, you'll have the gatekeepers in these centralized systems that are requiring people to KYC, AML, which takes away your privacy. 4:44:55 I've been a firm component of privacy, not necessarily meaning that you're doing something nefarious. 4:45:02 But it means that practicing your sovereignty by using mining as a way to be able to transfer assets from chain to chain, whether you agree if you're a shit-coiner or you're a Bitcoiner. 4:45:17 But I feel that this is the only possible way to do it trustlessly. 4:45:21 But most people can't even understand that. 4:45:24 I think the biggest thing that they're saying is by actually putting up your assets, holding your Bitcoin, and then there's an opportunity where it can be compromised, where the miners can be able to distill it maybe after three months or so. 4:45:41 And that's just pretty much the biggest argument that I've gotten from people. 4:45:45 Because I try to go into spaces and try to understand the mindset of why people are against it. 4:45:52 I feel that Drivechains or sidechains are necessary in order to migrate economic energy, which is in correlation with Satoshi, the reason why we have proof-of-work protocols in the first place. 4:46:07 Exactly. 4:46:08 And it's one thing for them to be against it for their own use, but they're trying to control what other people do. 4:46:16 And I don't know how these control freaks got into Bitcoin. 4:46:20 They want to tell everybody what they can do with their money. 4:46:23 But it's very annoying and it's holding us back. 4:46:26 Yeah, exactly. 4:46:28 The other thing is that it's very good that Drivechains came to these conversations or debates about drivechains. 4:46:38 Because now we see who they are and how much they know and what they're planning to do. 4:46:47 And Drivechains actually expose the dirt in the Bitcoin community. 4:46:53 And when you sweep and you bring the dust up, it's kind of like now. 4:46:59 We see things much, much clearer. 4:47:05 And I believe that what I see from so many sources, like listening, watching, reading, stuff like that, I see that more and more is pushing centralization to Bitcoin. 4:47:24 I actually think that they're not even really scared of the miners can steal thing. 4:47:30 I think that they know better than to be worried about that. 4:47:33 And if you understand how Bitcoin works, you understand why miners won't steal from a sidechain that provides fee revenue. 4:47:40 I think what they're really scared of is the idea that people could activate new things without their permission. 4:47:46 Even if that new thing is a sidechain that doesn't affect the mainchain, they really, really want control over what people are doing on Bitcoin. 4:47:54 And I don't know why they're so scared, but they need to get over it or get out of the way. 4:48:01 Yeah, exactly. I think I see also a gatekeeping around, you know, because on Bitcoin, if you see the most of the kind of companies or who came to use Bitcoin or any project that tried to do a layer two, it's not even Bitcoin. 4:48:21 It's like completely everything centralized. 4:48:24 And I see this kind of a profit. Profit kind of incentive from decentralized entities to keep this. 4:48:35 Explain why Lightning Network is centralized. 4:48:38 Some people said that I'm drinking Kool-Aid, but explain to them why it is centralized and why you don't agree with it instead of using a regular Bitcoin Core node. 4:48:50 Yeah, first of all, because that's an off-chain stuff. 4:48:56 They can say you can run a Lightning node, but it's off-chain. 4:49:00 It's completely off-chain and it doesn't relate to Bitcoin. 4:49:05 I said many times that this is very old and CryptoExp probably know about this, that you can create your own. 4:49:13 Why it is with the channels for people to kind of understand because there's obviously like, I don't know. 4:49:22 I don't know. We all have a sense of different type of decentralization and some people don't necessarily understand it. 4:49:29 But I wanted to get your input. 4:49:32 Why people think, you know, because when we say decentralization first principles, some people have a misunderstanding of what decentralization means. 4:49:43 Oh, yeah. 4:49:44 Yeah. 4:49:45 But like even the itself, the channel, even I was researching and actually you can do a transaction, but you need to tie it to a bigger one. 4:49:58 And all the bigger ones are the centralized exchanges. 4:50:01 That brings the centralization. 4:50:05 It's many ways that bring centralization that you need to be tied to that kind of a bigger network on a Lightning network. 4:50:15 Also, I had not me, but another person. 4:50:20 He said that he tried to run Lightning nodes and he lost Bitcoin because, I don't know, the keys were not working and he tried to reset and stuff like that. 4:50:32 This is a mess. 4:50:33 Even I tried to download is a mess. 4:50:35 Lightning network is, I don't know, kind of from technical standpoint is a bit mess. 4:50:45 But if anybody wants to run a Bitcoin channel, they can run. 4:50:51 They can use the normal node and will be off chain, but they utilizing node as a server and they can create a channel for if they need to do something like sending smaller transactions so they can send those transactions and then broadcast as a one transaction so they don't pay every time the fee. 4:51:14 It's kind of like these things nobody tells them. 4:51:19 When somebody speaks, they speak like marketing stuff or shielding stuff. 4:51:28 I'll say that Paul actually has a great tweet about this and his highlights where he details the idea of why it would actually be easier for somebody to steal from the Lightning network than it would be from a Drivechain. 4:51:45 And I wouldn't even pretend I understand it. 4:51:48 And I also don't know why it's so important. 4:51:53 There's this entitlement on the mentality of a lot of people who are Drivechain detractors that they have to have everything explained to them. 4:52:03 And, you know, there's eight years of information out there for anybody who really wants to go at that level. 4:52:10 But oftentimes they don't. 4:52:12 I am more attracted to Drivechain on the philosophical political level about how it would upend the current hierarchy of influence in the entire community. 4:52:23 That's very appealing to me. 4:52:28 Yeah, that's one of my favorite things about it as well. 4:52:31 Same. 4:52:36 It's definitely a big shift politically speaking. 4:52:38 It, you know, empowers people to kind of just start building. 4:52:43 And right now, I think Paul said that, like, in the beginning of the space, if you're someone, you know, young and bright eyed and you want to build a crypto project, 4:52:58 it's very limited what you can actually do on Bitcoin, not just technically, but also, sadly, politically speaking, you know, you have quite the entrenched gatekeepers. 4:53:16 And yeah, Bitcoin Core are the biggest creator of shit coins. 4:53:23 They're the reason that Ethereum exists. 4:53:25 They're the reason that Zcash exists. 4:53:27 They're the reason Monero exists. 4:53:29 A lot of these things where people initially wanted to do them on Bitcoin and especially Vitalik Buterin was basically cast away onto his own chain. 4:53:38 And for the longest time, it was treated as a joke, but it has built up so much momentum that now it's actually surpassed Bitcoin in transaction fees significantly. 4:53:48 And Bitcoin eventually will only be secured by transaction fees. 4:53:52 But you can't forget about that. 4:53:55 So we have to do something. 4:53:58 Yeah, exactly. 4:53:59 You're completely right. 4:54:00 And this is confirmation, you know, I was saying the same in a different way, but the same what you're saying that, you know, all these maxis and the gatekeepers are actually responsible for existing all these altcoins, EVMs and stuff like that. 4:54:17 And you're completely right. 4:54:18 And I would like to please you, CryptoEx, because you are contributing to Bitcoin Core and stuff like that. 4:54:27 And this information needs to be set out, you know, and I think you need to kind of, I will please you to speak more about these things and, you know, because people will learn and educate themselves that, you know, it's not from now, it's not something, a joke or small, you know. 4:54:48 Yeah, thank you. 4:54:49 I tried to, I've been trying to talk more, Paul and Henry and Austin and a lot of other people are significantly better at communicating ideas than I am. 4:54:58 But yeah, thank you. 4:55:07 That's good. 4:55:07 Let's get this going. 4:55:09 I'm ready for this thing. 4:55:12 Me too. 4:55:14 Yeah, I'm sick and tired of people saying that they don't like Drivechains and it's a shame, but yeah, other people are creating protocols on Bitcoin, but yet no one's sitting there like, you know, protesting different other projects. 4:55:32 I don't know if there are things going on, but yet incentivizing miners, that's a bad thing. 4:55:39 And I'm more like, why is Bitcoin sustainable? 4:55:45 It's the network. 4:55:46 If without the miners, you don't necessarily have Bitcoin. 4:55:49 So why not contribute? 4:55:54 So I don't know. 4:55:54 Everybody has their own philosophical view. 4:55:58 Some people can agree to disagree. 4:56:01 Another thing that Paul talks about a lot is how Drivechain would make Bitcoin much more meritocratic again. 4:56:08 Versus very politically influenced how it is now. 4:56:14 So what is it that we need to do in order to make this adopted? 4:56:18 We got to push the Bitcoin core developers to see if they can merge it in with this merge money or do we just make it happen and tell them to go F off? 4:56:32 That is a very hard question to answer. 4:56:34 It's really complicated. 4:56:36 Right now, people can keep pushing for more social consensus and teaching people about it. 4:56:42 And I don't recommend spending a lot of time arguing with people on Twitter because it'll drive you crazy. 4:56:47 But you can at least try to tell people that are your friends about it and see if they like it. 4:56:53 And you could go comment on the GitHub. 4:56:56 There's a poll request open by Luke Jr. 4:56:59 And you could comment on that if you want to. 4:57:01 You can test the software and you can tell us what kind of bugs you find or if there's any improvements you want. 4:57:09 Yeah, joining the spaces. 4:57:12 I'm already I already run pretty much a pretty large mining facility. 4:57:18 I've been doing it for quite a long time. 4:57:20 So a lot of these guys I used to supply them for Bitmain and in Silicon. 4:57:27 You know, I used to live there. 4:57:28 Yeah, some Bitcoin mining pools have published publicly said that they support Drivechains. 4:57:35 So more people doing that would be good. 4:57:40 Definitely, if you're involved in mining, if you're mining, let your pool know that you see this as a way to generate more revenue. 4:57:48 Yeah. 4:57:51 Yeah, maybe maybe this this would be crypto X about about the junior pull request and stuff like that. 4:58:01 Maybe that one can be tweeted and we can retweet and ask people to do retweeting. 4:58:07 And, you know, if it's possible, put in comments or I don't know. 4:58:12 Yeah, the GitHub pull request, Luke Junior's asking for people to give concept acts, which is just saying that you like how he is approaching the pull request. 4:58:22 So if you want to go on there and say that you concept act, the pull request, that would be helpful. 4:58:30 Yeah, that's good. 4:58:31 We'll do that. 4:58:33 It's under the. 4:58:35 I'm just saying you got the miners supporting this more than the actual grifters that are coming in here making big noise. 4:58:41 I've seen that happen. 4:58:42 It's just the people that don't. 4:58:44 Yeah, I, I think the idea sells itself to miners. 4:58:48 I don't think that it's hard to convince them at all. 4:58:55 Most of the people that are arguing are not even miners, and they don't even know how to set up with them. 4:59:00 And most of the people that argue with are not even miners, they don't even know how to set up with them, Isik, or even connected. 4:59:07 I don't know if they have a maybe they read too much Google articles and shit on Bitcoin magazine, but. 4:59:14 The only Bitcoin miner I've seen criticize it is Pierre Richard, who operates the right mining, who gets paid by the government to not mine Bitcoin. 4:59:22 So I don't. 4:59:23 He's not operating that by any means. He's a like researcher or like, you know, head of research or something. He's an employee. 4:59:32 Oh, really? When he walks around in the hard hat, he acts like he's running the place. 4:59:37 I don't know about him in a hard hat, but he's not running that. 4:59:44 Those who criticize blockchain, they don't even run a Bitcoin node. It's like, so funny. 4:59:51 Yeah. 4:59:54 Now, there's an engagement for him to get followers here on X. 4:59:58 That's what they're here to do. 5:00:00 And then convince everyone that this is not a good. 5:00:04 Well, that's definitely a real thing. 5:00:05 I mean, some people, you know, their career is Bitcoin influencer. 5:00:14 Yeah, definitely a real thing. 5:00:19 Maybe they want to be the next speaker on Bitcoin. 5:00:22 You know, the next Bitcoin conference, you know, that's what they're doing this for. 5:00:27 But I believe that look, a lot of the stuff that I hear when I run analytics is actually coming from America. 5:00:34 Like, hey, I got a newsflash, but Bitcoin doesn't necessarily rely on the consensus of what America does. 5:00:42 Bitcoin is global. 5:00:44 So there's other mining farms around the world that are actually contributing cash to sustain the network. 5:00:51 But, you know, it seems like the guys here obviously have some alternative motives. 5:00:56 I don't know what the reason for, but obviously we see a lot of these large corporations. 5:01:01 I don't want to sound like a 10th hat foil, but we also can see that these people have some type of corporate interest. 5:01:09 Big corporations are moving in and they're trying to dictate and control the hashing of money power. 5:01:14 And they don't want this to happen. 5:01:16 The reason why I think that they don't want it to happen, because it actually takes away money that they develop from service fees from some of these centralized exchanges, whatever these bridges and swaps. 5:01:30 So I don't know. 5:01:31 I don't know what else to say, because when we look at hacks, like most people don't talk about cybersecurity when it comes down to like bridges and swaps. 5:01:40 That's the reason why in the EVM world, why you have a lot of these scam projects, because a lot of these swaps and bridges end up getting exploited. 5:01:49 But if you have a proof of work concept using hashing, you necessarily eliminate that risk. 5:01:57 And that's what I feel that this the Drivechain can do for the Bitcoin community by keeping the trustless. 5:02:05 But each is his own. 5:02:09 And also will pump their bags for sure. 5:02:18 Well, I'm a I'm supportive of you guys. 5:02:20 Just I just feel like if we can do more spaces on educating, you know, people why, you know, I think the biggest thing, like they said, is you locking up your Bitcoin. 5:02:33 And if you guys can basically clarify and convey that to kind of break it down for a lot of the newbies that call themselves OG Bitcoiners, that would be great. 5:02:45 You know, to kind of dumb it down a little bit, because I think that sometimes they don't quite grasp the concept because they're not tech. 5:02:54 So I think education is is key. 5:02:58 And obviously, we'll we'll know who the corporate infiltrators that come in because they don't they just want to dismiss it. 5:03:06 They don't have a real informative, like, you know, a way to be able to refute it or to debate it, because you basically already disclosed all the text of why this is not why this won't compromise or affect them. 5:03:24 The base for, you know, the base layer chain of Bitcoin, and I think that they think this is a hard fork, but they don't necessarily understand that it is not a hard fork. 5:03:35 So I don't know. 5:03:37 That's just my input. 5:03:39 Thank you for your. 5:03:41 Yeah, thank you. 5:03:43 It's definitely education is very important, I think, you know, still the vast, vast majority of stakeholders, Bitcoiners, they don't really know what this is and they don't know the promise. 5:04:03 But, yeah, I think that more and more so miners are going to understand it. 5:04:09 Because they're kind of the most. 5:04:11 The most incentivized or optimized to understand it, just because it can bring so much more activity to the network. 5:04:19 And I'm looking forward to seeing how the next, you know, few years play out, because I really think this is the most bullish thing possible for Bitcoin. 5:04:29 Yeah, you know, when Blockstream first announced that they were going to work on peer to peer sidechains, it caused a total crash of the altcoin market. 5:04:37 And we could do that again. 5:04:39 I remember that was the topic of discussion for weeks and weeks. 5:04:43 Oh, yeah. 5:04:45 Months. 5:04:47 Maybe that is a good, good phrase, like peer to peer to be used more, you know, because I think like the most, you know, when they speak, they say, oh, it actually would do changes. 5:05:03 It doesn't make any change to layer one. 5:05:05 You know, like, I mean, it's very simple to to be understood. 5:05:07 But. 5:05:09 Yeah, I agree. 5:05:11 Oh, just just to mention this. 5:05:13 I don't know if you if you're on LinkedIn, but also I saw there. 5:05:20 But to BRC 69 to BRC 20 and stuff like that. 5:05:25 But they needed to educate them, you know, like. 5:05:27 Yeah. 5:05:29 One problem a lot of people have. 5:05:32 Is understanding that Drivechain is a way to implement peer to peer sidechains, a two way peg and blind merge. 5:05:39 Mining for abstract sidechain ideas. 5:05:41 It's not for one specific idea. 5:05:43 It's for any idea. 5:05:46 It's not just to have a decentralized exchange or just to have zk-SNARKs or just to have a scaling. 5:05:53 It's not just for that. 5:05:54 It's not just to have a decentralized exchange or just to have zk-SNARKs or just to have a scaling. 5:06:15 You can do all of these different things. 5:06:17 It's not a new soft fork for every change. 5:06:19 It's one change that lets us do all of these things and has a system to activate these things and to incentivize them and to filter out the bad ones. 5:06:30 So I think it's really hard for people to understand that it's an idea that lets people create new things instead of an idea that just activates one thing. 5:06:39 Yeah, yeah. 5:06:40 Actually, Drivechain is a platform. 5:06:42 Yeah. 5:06:47 And people say, oh, well, why don't you do it on Liquid? 5:06:49 And that's because Liquid is technically a sidechain, even though Blockstream have come out and said it wasn't a sidechain. 5:06:57 Now they say it's a sidechain again, but whatever. 5:06:59 It only does exchange-to-exchange transfers. 5:07:03 So you can't do Drivechain on that because it doesn't have all of the other things that you need to propose new sidechains and to activate them and to deposit and withdraw from them without the multi-sig approving it. 5:07:17 It's a totally different thing. 5:07:19 Yeah, yeah. 5:07:20 It's a platform. 5:07:21 It's a universal platform for innovation on Bitcoin, maybe. 5:07:27 Yeah. 5:07:32 Let's start doing more of these spaces. 5:07:33 And I know YouTube videos that kind of dumb it down for people. 5:07:37 I don't mean to undermine anyone. 5:07:39 We host a space every Friday, so please join us. 5:07:46 I think it's Friday, 2 p.m. Eastern time in the U.S. Eastern time zone. 5:07:54 Yeah, 10 a.m. Pacific, sorry. 5:08:00 Yeah, we sometimes do our spaces with Punisher. 5:08:07 And I hope he will activate and retweet more with his bigger account. 5:08:14 But we speak about Drivechains, you know, kind of a lot of time. 5:08:22 I'll do some spaces, man. 5:08:25 I'll break down the tech on it because a lot of times you'll have like people that are. 5:08:30 I don't know. 5:08:33 I just think that they already have alternative motives. 5:08:35 They're not open for like open debate. 5:08:39 But I think we can be respectful. 5:08:41 But I love the I don't know. 5:08:43 I love to go to battle with like real engineers. 5:08:47 I don't want a front-end developer, some guy that does like websites we're living. 5:08:54 And then all of a sudden we have like we engage in some type of software development that doesn't necessarily understand Bitcoin Core and BIPs and stuff like that. 5:09:05 So I'll talk more about it on my main account and just get awareness out there. 5:09:12 I don't necessarily think that like if Bitcoin were like here it is from a philosophical level. 5:09:17 If Bitcoin represents freedom and if this thing does not affect the base layer. 5:09:23 Then why are we so against it? 5:09:27 And then why are people like against the idea of using Drivechains? 5:09:34 But they could they want to continue using like Coinbase and all these other finance smart chains and they want to do KYC and AML. 5:09:42 I said, what was the whole purpose you would join cryptocurrency? 5:09:45 If you want to go and do that, go stay your ass on Wall Street. 5:09:49 Go KYC. 5:09:50 Go do all that. 5:09:51 Fill out an accredited investor form. 5:09:53 But all we're doing is say, hey, have control of your assets. 5:09:57 Do it in the trustless mechanism where it doesn't affect anyone. 5:10:02 We still have control over your assets by doing so. 5:10:05 And I think people don't want to participate in these type of ecosystems because they don't necessarily understand like true decentralization. 5:10:14 I said Bitcoin was meant to be autonomous. 5:10:17 But my I don't want to go off the chain on this one, but it was supposed to be autonomous. 5:10:26 It was not supposed to be, you know, where we off ramp. 5:10:30 It was supposed to be able to where we can actually trade, use Bitcoin to way to settle payments. 5:10:37 You know, that's that was Satoshi's vision. 5:10:41 But yet here we are with the centralized banking institutions. 5:10:45 They're coming in here with their own ideas. 5:10:48 And then they're trying to make this they're trying to centralize decentralization. 5:10:54 I don't know. I'm a I'm a decentralized Maxi. 5:10:58 Anything, any component that deals with centralization, I'm against it. 5:11:03 I believe in first principles of crypto. 5:11:06 And I feel that that's the only way that you can actually gain sovereignty is by controlling your own assets and being able to do it in a trustless layer, which is proof of work. 5:11:16 And so I'm for this and I would definitely like to have more conversations with like minded individuals. 5:11:24 So, yeah, with that being said, I yield back the floor. 5:11:28 Awesome. Thank you. 5:11:31 All right. I'm going to have to actually drop off now. 5:11:34 I got something else booked here in a few minutes, but it's been great to hang out here for the last four and a half hours. 5:11:43 Yeah, I think this is a great time to end it. 5:11:45 It was really nice talking to you all. All you guys. 5:11:47 And if you want to come back next Friday, Paul will be here, usually for the first several hours. 5:11:54 We are always here. Maybe we can prepare some interview questions for you next time. 5:12:05 Oh, yeah. If you want to. That's fine with me. All right. 5:12:08 Cool. All right. Yeah, I guess we can go ahead and end it. 5:12:12 Thank you, everybody. Yep. See you guys later. 5:12:15 See you. Bye.
