0:00 This is a common trend that, you know, the hardware improves, and the software developers are lazy. 0:07 They don't fix, you know, memory issues anymore, because no one has to optimize anything. 0:14 Because the hardware is so good. 0:20 Anyway, hopefully we'll get some cool people. 0:24 I see some great friendly faces in the audience. 0:28 Maybe we'll get some haters, I don't know. 0:31 I hope everyone liked our video that we made. 0:35 It's a hilarious video of Peter. 0:37 Apparently, Peter Todd, who has been this big skeptic of merged mining sidechains for a really, really long time. 0:45 The issue is, though, that he doesn't really know anything about them at all, which is surprising. 0:49 I'm as surprised as you. 0:51 But in particular, he hasn't looked into my project at all, to the point where he didn't even realize we had made a fully functional Zcash sidechain with a GUI two and a half years ago, and made a video about it two and a half years ago. 1:07 And he thought that this idea is just some kind of vaporware, which is really something, because most of the ideas that people talk about really are complete vaporware. 1:18 Such as, you know, well, I don't even, you know, there's no real status of ARC, there's no real status of like surf chains, or these other things are just in a very, very incomplete state. 1:31 But that's very, very different from the state of Drivechain, where we have a lot of stuff that people can use right now. 1:40 If you go to the drivechain.info slash releases page, you can download stuff there. 1:49 And it has a GUI and it works with PlayMoney, of course, PlayMoney for now. 1:56 But there you go. 1:59 There you go. 2:05 So, hopefully someone, if you have any thoughts, come on up and leave a question or comment. 2:20 Otherwise it'll just be me rambling slowly about nothing, which I'm sure no one wants to hear. 2:28 We have someone in the audience with negative one IQ. 2:31 And I got to tell you, as someone who was a professional statistician, I'm pretty sure that that is possible because it's normed to a mean of average of 100 and standard deviation of 15. 2:43 So if you are low enough, then it will eventually become negative. 2:51 So I don't know what the z-score on that is. 2:54 But that's, I mean, I guess we do know that it is 15 over 100 over 15 plus a little. 3:04 And so I think the population would have to be like several quadrillion people at least. 3:11 And then that would be the lowest score of them all. 3:14 But someone should look that up. 3:16 Fire up a z-calculator. 3:17 It probably won't even work. 3:18 If you fire up a z-score calculator online and try to plug that in, it probably will just crash. 3:24 But not because it's negative, just because it's really, really far. 3:36 Yes, hello. 3:43 I'm glad that we put the video in the. 3:47 I don't know what that I don't know what to interpret. 3:49 I don't know how to interpret that type of thing where he's been saying like. 3:54 He's been saying all this stuff like for years, like merge mines. 3:58 He's saying like merge mine sidechains were Greg Maxwell's biggest mistake, for example. 4:05 And yet he has really no ability to back any of that up. 4:08 It's just him saying things like he prefers that miners costs be shaped a certain way. 4:15 And even on that absurd criterion, he's not correct. 4:18 So even if that made any sense, which it doesn't. 4:23 He wouldn't even be right because either the full node costs have to be very low. 4:28 He's talking about the fact that miners may be pressured into running a node for transaction fees. 4:33 But that costs nothing, basically. 4:36 Nodes cannot be expensive because. 4:39 If they are, the network just shuts off. 4:43 Or. 4:45 If they are, then the miners and miners are enticed. 4:48 They will just partner with a full node. 4:50 And that is what Blind Merged Mining is. 4:52 It doesn't even matter if BIP301 is used or not. 4:56 It's just this technique. 4:57 BIP301 makes it trustless to cooperate with the node. 5:01 But there's no sense in which once you do 100,000 hashes, you move from needing one node to needing two nodes. 5:11 You just have the one node somewhere in your setup. 5:17 And that one node will work for all of the hashing machines plugged into your operation. 5:30 And that's why it doesn't matter what the full node cost is to miners. 5:33 To users, it matters enormously. 5:34 But, again, this is the whole point of sidechains is that this full node cost must be kept down. 5:41 But some people don't want it to be the absolute minimum. 5:45 So, again, it's crucial that the full node cost be kept down. 5:48 You know, Peter and I agree about that. 5:50 But some people want to pay a little bit more. 5:54 And so they use whichever sidechains they like, and they don't turn any new sidechains on. 5:58 And if there's many sidechains, then you're not moving this number up non-consensually. 6:06 You consent to move it up. 6:09 So this is really missing the whole point. 6:12 It's like the difference between eating as much food as you like and being force-fed to death, 6:19 which is being force-fed to death would be the large block version, one mandatory L1 large block. 6:26 And then Drivechain is eating as much food as you want and no more. 6:32 And then the small block version is having only the – you only get as much food as the – you know, 6:40 as the smallest people want to – you know, whatever the smallest amount ordered. 6:44 You all sit down to eat, and someone orders a salad only. 6:48 Now everyone says to eat salad. 6:51 But why do it like that when people could just have whatever they like? 7:03 You know what they did on the Ordinal show? 7:06 They play music while they're waiting for, like, the space to fill up and, like, waiting for people to come up on stage. 7:14 That's, like, a neat idea. I like that. 7:17 Maybe we should do that. 7:19 Otherwise, it would be really boring if no one comes up and talks. 7:32 We could do that. 7:53 Let's see. The Ordinal show, they have, like, a really, like, R&B type of a thing. 8:00 I don't really think that's the Drivechain music. 8:04 It should be, like, 8-bit. 8:08 I don't know. 8:13 A little bit coding, breaking the silence. 8:18 It's nice to have you up here. 8:21 How are you, Paul? 8:24 It's amazing how you handle all this. 8:27 You know, it's amazing how you strongly and politely do all this, you know, criticism. 8:35 And it's very impressive. 8:39 I mean, it's very nice to see that. 8:42 Oh, thanks. 8:44 Yeah, I don't really get a lot of it. 8:47 I think maybe it should be a little more assertive, where it's kind of, like, how can it be that, like, these people don't really know anything about the project, and they're saying, like, they don't like me, but they don't know anything, though. 9:00 So it's, like, they literally haven't even glanced at, like, the website. 9:06 To say they've done the bare minimum is, like, even that is an overstatement. 9:11 So I don't really get it. 9:14 I was thinking, do you think we should just play this video over and over again, like, every day? 9:18 I think it's pretty funny. 9:20 Yeah, yeah. 9:23 Yeah, it's like, it's looking like, I mean, I recognize that none of them, like, has, like, something that, you know, kind of like, it's an interesting technological or, you know, like a blockchain issue that Drivechain kind of do not cover. 9:43 It's so perfect that I think you don't have even a proper sparring partner, you know, to kind of debate pro or against. 9:54 Right, that's the bizarre thing is he's not even really qualified to debate. 9:58 So that's a weird situation to be in. 10:02 Yeah, and you know what, I think what you did is very good, like, for from historical standpoint, and for people who are coming in spaces to, I mean, not spaces like a Twitter space, but in Bitcoin and all this, you know, like, cryptographic related blockchains and stuff. 10:24 Like to see actually who is knowledgeable and who is not related to the technology they promote or, you know, related to something to Bitcoin, which it's, you know, I think you're the most knowledgeable person here from all of them. 10:45 Like, I know, I know you, other people who are probably not, you know, like publicly speaking or something like that. 10:56 Yeah, I know some knowledgeable people, but I'm saying from all this drama, you know, no, no other person. 11:04 I mean, also your team and Henry and Austin and Crypto X, you know, you're all, I mean, we learn a lot. 11:19 We all learn a lot from, in general, plus with drivechains. 11:24 Cool. 11:29 What do you think is the biggest misconception out there? 11:33 You know, because I've been doing this for a while, so I kind of know, like, my own experience, but what do you think other people should know, but they don't? 11:44 Maybe, you know what, I realized that, like the critics, they go all the time, oh, Drivechain will change Bitcoin. 11:56 I see that as a kind of like, because Drivechain in fact or in reality do not change anything, just ask to be included in the mining. 12:09 So everything goes, you know, like using the Bitcoin blockchain, you know, I think that kind of phrasing, like I think need to be a little bit more kind of a better phrase. 12:26 So people kind of, I think that's the biggest kind of what I see from all this, you know, critics that they're saying, oh, we don't want change on Bitcoin. 12:38 We don't want change on Bitcoin. 12:41 But I think, sorry, I think that like many people, like, who are not from that kind, you know, are very positive about drivechains. 12:56 And I was speaking the last space and with CryptoEx, and I was saying that Drivechains probably will open the opportunities for kind of business related sidechains, like, you know, like private sidechains, which, you know, we disagree with centralization. 13:23 But from some business standpoint, you have sensitive data that need to be, you know, like, publicly shown like accounting or maybe a supply chain and stuff like that. 13:38 So it's, I always look more on a, from a blockchain adoption, not from a token or coin adoption. 13:47 Yeah, I think you're right that people see it as like a change or something, which it's so vague and abstract. 13:56 And of course, what it really is, is it's something that won't affect you at all if you're not using it. 14:04 So in that sense, it's not a change at all. 14:07 If people who are using it, it could be a change. 14:10 So it's kind of saying, like, we use electricity for lights. 14:13 And I've invented, like, a radio or something. 14:17 And it's like, oh, you don't have to plug in the radio, you can keep using your lights, you know? 14:24 Yeah. 14:25 But people do think, oh, this is my precious, precious Bitcoin. 14:29 We can't change it. 14:30 But I don't know why that idea is, that idea seems to be punching above its weight, which is to say that the idea that we have to prevent Bitcoin from changing. 14:44 And we have to regard things as changes, even if they're not. 14:48 It seems just like really, really deeply ingrained in people. 14:54 They just don't get it, that it's, you know. 14:57 I think that affects, in my opinion, all these books that are coming, you know, Bitcoin books and stuff like that. 15:07 Because I see that the White Paper, the Satoshi White Paper, or Satoshi itself, it's like isolated from all that. 15:18 And it's a completely different kind of narrative only around BTC and nothing about the blockchain, you know. 15:25 But I think coming from there, I don't know, I see that as a kind of maybe a cause of all this. 15:37 Yeah, I agree. 15:38 I think it's sort of like people... 15:44 Well, I always blame the scaling war because the scaling war was won by... 15:52 What really happened was the side that hard-forked shot themselves in the head and were killed instantly by themselves. 15:59 And so the lesson was like, change Bitcoin and you'll be destroyed kind of a thing. 16:06 But I don't think people really realize like all the nuances of that situation. 16:12 Like, for example, I always say the large blocker side, large blocks on L1 is always a terrible idea. 16:17 And it was never going to win, I think, because it... 16:21 So even if that had been done as a soft fork, it would have had like a 10x greater chance of winning. 16:29 But it probably would still have lost because... 16:34 Well, it's hard to say. 16:35 I think the hard fork is a huge disadvantage. 16:37 And I think there's no reason to do L1 large blocks because you could use them on L2. 16:42 And so it's a complicated mix of reasons. 16:47 Yeah, yeah. 16:49 Like, okay, we say, you know, I'm more for a small block and then you upgrade or add on stuff like, you know, Drivechains and etc, etc. 17:01 But like, I was thinking also like, okay, they say, oh, we don't want change, but let's see why they're in the space. 17:11 Like, there is so much like L2s that, you know, include headers in the Bitcoin blockchain through mining and stuff like that. 17:21 Why they don't talk about that? 17:24 That's kind of, you know, my question coming from all the, you know, looking wider, the whole Bitcoin ecosystem, you know. 17:34 So that's one kind of why they are against Drivechain and say, we don't want change. 17:39 But here they accept all other stuff, you know, which is much, they are centralized. 17:46 I don't say for me, Drivechain is decentralized and native to Bitcoin. 17:53 Yeah, of course. 17:54 One of the purposes of Drivechain is to decentralize development, which is to say something is decentralized. 18:01 It's like, it's sort of like YouTube where someone can, you can have a video that does really, really well, like Gangnam Style or something. 18:13 And then someone can come out with a new video that also does well, maybe for a completely different reason. 18:21 Doesn't make any difference, you know. 18:23 But the point is a video, a new video can come from anywhere, can come from someone who's brand new. 18:29 And that's what decentralization is sort of supposed to be like, like a new node can come from anywhere. 18:35 Someone is brand new with no pre-existing reputation of any kind. 18:39 They show up and they can contribute their thing. 18:46 That's certainly not the case now with Bitcoin development. 18:49 I don't think that anyone who is new, who showed up would even be able to understand the environment they're in. 19:00 It takes someone like, you have to be like, you have to be like super, super smart. 19:04 Like you have to be as smart as like the, as Barack the Ark guy. 19:09 You have to be like super smart. 19:11 You have to invent something from scratch that uses Blockstream's liquid. 19:14 That's like super, super good. 19:16 Then you have to join Blockstream. 19:18 Then you have to break lightning a couple of times for fun. 19:21 And then you have to invent Ark. 19:23 Like that's what it takes for you to like. 19:27 Yeah, that's what it takes to make it. 19:29 It's like, it's like other than that, if you can't pull that off, then. 19:37 I don't know. 19:38 You can, then you can, you can join Bitcoin Core and you can do code review and you can add tests. 19:45 To Bitcoin Core. 19:46 And you can maybe like change a matrix factorization so that. 19:52 So that it shaves off a tiny milliseconds, five milliseconds. 19:58 And then you're a Bitcoin developer. 20:02 But you see, that's very different than someone releasing a new video that gets more views than Gangnam Style on YouTube. 20:08 It's like a very different thing. 20:09 We want the kind of competition. 20:11 You know, it's not really competition unless someone is crying tears of despair and they lose their job. 20:18 And their whole industry is destroyed. 20:20 That is like, that's real competition and other competition. 20:24 Like, you know what I mean? 20:25 Because like everyone can be forced into like becoming like a lightning developer, but it's kind of like. 20:31 You know, it's not that serious. 20:33 That's like if you say, oh, we have the BBC allows competition. 20:38 We want to see who can who can write the best story on. 20:43 You know, a baby seals at the zoo playing with this. 20:50 Beach ball and whoever writes the best story will run. 20:55 But it has to be exactly about that. 20:57 And you're like, OK, well, that's, you know. 21:01 That's not really the same thing. 21:03 Yeah. 21:04 If anyone else wants to come up, please come up and share a question or comment or go on Twitter and tell all the haters to show up. 21:15 They definitely won't. 21:17 Sometimes they do. 21:18 I honestly liked it when whatever Mr. 21:20 Hoddle came in, that was I thought that was great that his phone died. 21:24 But that was one of the best. 21:25 That was a good recording. 21:27 And I'm not only saying that because he admitted that I was right about everything we disagreed about mostly. 21:33 So. 21:36 But, no, that was fun. 21:37 We're having a good time there. 21:43 No, we haven't all commenced. 21:44 Hey, Paul, what's up? 21:45 Hey, I'm I'm familiar with Henry. 21:49 I don't know if Henry's here right now. 21:50 Me and him used to talk on Clubhouse with a bunch of the Bitcoiners. 21:54 Hey, so I have a question for you. 21:57 What? 21:58 So I know that you're building or you're trying to build Drivechain. 22:01 I know it's obviously difficult. 22:04 What? 22:05 So what Drivechains would you specifically want to see or what would you like? 22:09 What would you find interesting to see? 22:11 Like what? 22:12 What Drivechains would you think would be useful for people? 22:16 Because me personally, I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist, but I have driven chains. 22:21 I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist, but I have Bitcoin and like I would like to see more utility to Bitcoin, obviously. 22:27 So obviously I'm supporting what you guys are doing. 22:29 I think it's awesome. 22:31 You guys are trying. 22:32 You've been trying to do this for years. 22:33 So. 22:34 But yeah, what Drivechains would you like to see? 22:38 Well, I personally got involved with this because I had a very, very complex idea called that I called Truthcoin back in the day, which was about prediction markets. 22:47 And you can now today you can go to Bitcoinhivemind.com and you can watch a little 20 minute video of me explain what it's for. 22:53 And it's for a lot. 22:56 And I, but the idea is so weird that I knew that there was no way it could possibly come to Bitcoin other than as a sidechain. So that was what got me involved in the first place. And at the time, I would never have even thought that I would even be working on sidechains. What I thought was, I'll invent this. I wrote this Truthcoin paper. It's a long story, but I just thought I'll just write this idea and then someone else will do all the work. I scammed myself in classic Bitcoiner fashion. 23:23 Because now I'm doing all the work also. But at the time, it looked like Blockstream was going to do all the sidechains work. And then other people would do the. So I'm interested in this prediction market thing, which is how I first got into it. But that's a very unique kind of high risk, high reward kind of thing. When I got involved with sidechains, there was during the block size dispute was heating up. 23:51 And there was a view at the time that sidechains could not never be used for scaling because this O and squared thing with the blockchain and also because of the supposed impossibility of fraud proofs. 24:05 But I investigated this and I found that actually fraud proofs are completely possible and very easy. In fact, 24:12 they're already on optimism. 24:16 Yeah, it's very easy to do all the things that people think you can't do are very easy to do with. I don't know why. So I think that was just a folk belief. And so I wrote about that in my blog and I'm not surprised that other people also figured out because it's a very important thing. 24:35 And the idea of that it's optional scaling by a large by a team of like 10 large block sidechains. 24:46 That is a very, very different idea than just naive L1 large block ism. 24:51 For a wide variety of reasons, like some of these I presented and scaling three in Milan, October 2016. And some I wrote about in my post Thunder. But now one of the things that has happened to me. 25:07 As someone who has been a technical researcher and commentator in the space for all these years, years and years and years, it just really seems like actually all the other scaling things that aren't the large block sidechain, a team of 10 large block sidechains or something similar to that. 25:24 They really, really seem like they have huge disadvantages. I mean, the preoccupation with being able to come always back to L1 in under any circumstances, even if it's with a giant, like this weird Merkle tree transaction that takes up a huge amount of space, or like a forced channel factory close, which you have to do if anyone is unresponsive, which is huge. 25:48 It's like 20 times at least the size of a normal Bitcoin transaction. 25:54 When L1 fee rates are high or even volatile, I think it just like it really just that idea just doesn't work at all. And people just defect into custodial lightning. And I just think that's, that's really just giving up. 26:10 And so I actually have gone from thinking that the large block sidechain is a kind of fringe idea to thinking that probably almost all Bitcoin users will be using that every day just because payments is easy. People want cheap payments. 26:27 Payments is like, you know, every day when you buy things, you're using payments all the time. Whereas how often do people use like, you know, smart contracts or even prediction markets or even name registrations or things. 26:38 So, so my, my, my one answer is I have my fringe prediction market project, BitcoinHiveMine.com. 26:45 But I really think the scaling idea is totally overlooked. And what has actually happened is the stigma of the block size war has closed people's minds to it. They don't see it for what it is, which is a completely new idea. 26:57 We could call it which you should maybe have just a completely different name. Probably it would be better if someone just renamed it instead of large block BIP300 sidechain. If people instead renamed it to something like, you know, something instead of like ARK or LN, which has come up with a completely new name. 27:14 But I don't know if people would get it. But if you go to Truthcoin.info, my thunder post, I did give it a name, but I don't know if it's not going to sell. So. 27:22 So, so Paul, don't you think that they're, I mean, I'm sure that you've been focusing. 27:27 I have to mention also the Zcash sidechain that we also built, which I think, again, people try really hard. You have a Matt Odell and you have people, they try Samurai, Wasabi. They try so hard to build these little mixers for people, which they're just not as good as having one Zcash sidechain that everyone uses. 27:46 It's always mixing everyone's thing. Sender, receiver, the amount are all hidden. The nice folks at Zcash did all this work to make the technology is improved. It's a thousand times better than what it was back when I first heard about it in 2012 or 2013 or whatever, when Matthew Green published Zerocoin. 28:05 So, yeah, scalability, privacy are the big two. And then I personally am interested in this prediction market thing. 28:11 Those are some of my answers. 28:13 Cool. Yeah. I mean, don't you think that there's some, do you think that there's some value with, I'm sure you've been following the rollups and the proto-dank sharding and the idea of taking a lot of the work and putting, taking it off chain in the form of blobs and then sending a proof back and then making that go fast. 28:32 Like there is some value. Do you think that there is some value to doing a lot of the heavy lifting off chain and then bringing the proof back on chain or what are your thoughts on that? 28:42 Well, I think you're a hundred percent correct, but partly that is what BIP300 does in a very loose way because with BIP300 says the stuff is on an L2 chain that's not on L1 and nothing comes back except it's not a proof, but it is just, it is more of a conjecture and refutation. 28:59 As I say, it says, I, we assert that this happens and then waits for like a challenge, but in a way that's exactly what BIP300 does in a very, very general way. 29:10 It's the most general version of that where it just says you can do whatever you want. We won't ask any questions. 29:16 The only thing that needs to happen is this hash of the withdrawals needs to come back. And of course you need to pay your merge mining. You must pay the L1 miners so that they have a financial incentive to. 29:27 To process, you know, support the sidechain and process the withdrawals the honorable way. 29:33 So I see BIP300 as a very extreme form of that. And certainly the fact that we don't, the fact that we have only done mainly lightning as the L2 that we have focused on, I think in retrospect will be viewed as an enormous mistake in the Bitcoin history. 29:52 It will be seen as probably like a, like a, like a dark ages, middle ages or something. 29:59 And I think that will be when we do finally have the Renaissance, when there is like just people building whatever they want, this will be looked at with regret, I think. 30:11 And so we should be doing all kinds of different L2 things. We currently don't. 30:17 And one cool thing about the Drivechain idea is you could try, it's a lot of the stuff that you could have the EVM BIP300 chain and it could have Ethereum rollups on that. 30:27 And then when people, or you have L2 chain, you know, you have a chain with BIP118, you could, you try that or you have a BIP119 chain, you have ARK on that. 30:41 And then people would, they would be using it with Bitcoin and then there would be, it would strengthen, I think the case for like activating. 30:50 It would both strengthen and weaken the case, but I think it would do that. 30:54 You would say, well, we could do this on L1. After all, we've been doing it on L2 with real money that we would have 119 on L2 this whole time and nothing bad has happened because of 119. 31:06 We've had ARK, ARK is the L3 on L2. So why not have ARK the L2 on L1 Bitcoin that has BIP119 on L1. 31:15 So I think that's all, I think it's all related. And if people say, see, I think either way it works out favorably because you say, well, maybe it's working out just fine as an ARK is working just fine as an L3 of this L2. 31:32 Well, therefore we don't need to bother L1 with it. And it seems because everything's working out just fine. 31:37 Whereas it also works the other way, where if you say, well, we really, really, really need 119 on L1 as quickly as possible. 31:47 Okay, well, now it's still a good thing that you have it on L2. Everyone can see exactly what it does and how it works. 31:55 Software is already being written for it. It has actual users. So now there's much less bike shedding. There's much less like concern trolling. 32:05 You just have it on, you already have it existing. So now you just say, okay, this is exactly what we're going to do on L1. We're going to do exactly what we have done on L2 on L1. So I think either way, it's better. 32:19 Gotcha. Yeah, it's just so crazy to me that Bitcoin doesn't have any of these things yet. To me, it just seems insane. 32:31 Yeah, we have this weird culture that Bitcoin is already perfect. And so it's also like the part of the history. 32:40 Like Ethereum had a very, very scammy history. It was very shady at first. It was poorly thought out and it was like all done with like, 32:49 Ethereum, like they raised money even before it existed. So most of the ETH went to like the early contributors. It was like this mostly pre-mined altcoin. 33:03 And it mostly had no use cases at all. And it attracted this den of thieves thing. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners formed an opinion about it back then in 2015. 33:13 Or even earlier. 2014, because January 2014 was like the announcement. And so they formed an opinion of it back then. And then for a while, you could climb the Bitcoin technical totem pole by criticizing Ethereum. 33:29 And so people would do that like, you know, to like, for clout, including me, I also did it, you know, and many of my critiques were very good. 33:40 So that's the thing is, Ethereum really had all these problems. And it really was very experimental. And it was wet concrete. But I think, you know, over time, things change, you know, like it's been a really long time. 33:52 You know, nine years have passed since 2014. So a lot can happen in a year. And that is, I think the story is just that, like, what is someone supposed to do? Like, if you're a researcher, and you're going to try to do something, and maybe you are a busybody, and you have no talent, and there are many such people. 34:16 So like, you're, let's say you're a researcher at an Ivy League university, and you, you work on protocols, and you want to publish like a Bitcoin thing. You publish a Bitcoin thing, and everyone hates it. And then you publish another thing, and they hate that. And then you think, well, whatever. And then there's Ethereum. So they publish a thing, and they all love it. 34:36 Now, again, this is poor quality control for the idea, because a lot of these ideas really did suck. But it just speaks to the fact that, you know, given enough time, and enough evolutionary pressure, you know, of course, most mutations cause an organism to die and their children to die. But it's the few successful ones that have, you know, created all the life on planet Earth. 35:02 So that we see today, so 35:32 like, makers having tokenized treasuries, and, like, there's a lot of, like, you know, real things happening now, in my opinion. And I would just, I would just like to see, and there's still obviously, like scams, of course, right? Like, yeah, like, that's not gonna, that's not gonna go away. But I think that some of the use cases, I'd like to see that on, you know, Bitcoin, which has, you know, certain properties that Ethereum doesn't have. 36:02 Right? The world changes, right? That's how it works. 36:07 Well, I think there's also the concept of a spectrum of decentralization and a niche. And by that, I mean, people will say, like, Bitcoiners will say, well, Ethereum's centralized, you know, they'll level that critique at Ethereum. And it is centralized compared to BTC. And in many profound ways, it is, but it's kind of like, what if you compared Ethereum to, like, you know, Visa? 36:35 Something that has a mailing address and an HQ and a CEO that you can arrest. And, like, something that you could just, they could just pass a law, like banning, you know, they just ban, like, a thing, you know, you're passing a law banning TikTok or something, you know, it's like, 36:51 if you had like a big, imagine you had like a piece of graph paper, or something. Or it was like, you had it as a football field, you know, and it's 100 yards, or it's like a percentage point or something where you're saying, the most decentralized thing in the world would be like a really, really small block version of Bitcoin, that was, you know, widely distributed already or something. 37:20 So that's like as decentralized as you could get. And then fully centralized would just be like any, anything that was like WeChat pay or something fully incorporated and client server, in an absolute sense. And it's kind of like, you know, where would Ethereum fall? And where would Bitcoin and Ethereum fall on that? 37:47 I think like, you know, Bitcoin would be like on like, the five yard line, and maybe Ethereum would be like on the 12 yard line or something like that. So it's like, it's a significant difference. But Ethereum was very, through luck or through strategy, Ethereum just kind of decided, listen, we're not we know that we won't if we try to be as decentralized as Bitcoin, we'll lose. 38:11 So they said, we'll just be more centralized, and we'll try to reap all the advantages of that that we can. And you know, a lot of people don't care, of course. And there's also other ways in which you can push the envelope, if you're willing to make changes. So, so they have a strategy that involves that. And that strategy by itself is not enough to defeat Bitcoin or even come close. 38:38 And I think a lot of Ethereum's design is terrible. And I still think it's kind of funny that because of the halting problem, you have to pay fees, even if your transaction doesn't go through. It's like, you know, the worst. It's like, you know, it's terrible in many ways. But you know, just with enough growth and enough time and enough, just being allowed to exist, that would be a lot. 39:02 It's enough to eventually become popular enough to challenge Bitcoin. And I don't understand, we have taken a very, we've taken the wrong attitude towards that. I'm just trying to say that it's the same Ethereum it was in 2015. And we just feel sorry for anyone who falls for it. But really, it's just something that has made a very different trade-offs. In Ethereum, you still have like, people's private keys controlling their coins. There's no, you don't necessarily when you join Ethereum, and you make a transaction, you don't necessarily have to pay fees. 39:32 It's like a new ETH address, you don't have to type in like your name, your address, your social security number. So it's not true that it's, if you had to sort them into buckets of centralized and decentralized, and as long as like, you know, Chase is in that group, or WeChat Pay is in that group, or Visa is in that group, then Ethereum is sorted into the decentralized bucket. 40:02 It's just, it's just, it's a, it's different trade-offs, and it's trade-offs that we wouldn't make. But so I'm trying to say is there's a spectrum. And so the idea is, are we as Bitcoiners going to immediately forfeit those users, the users who prefer that location on the spectrum? 40:21 And why do that when with sidechains, we could just occupy every single space on the spectrum? You know, we can just allow people that should go in and sacrifice some decentralization while still using 21 million Bitcoins. 40:36 So yeah, I don't really understand why we do it this way. And back in 2015, there was RSK, Rootstock was created with the whole purpose of just replicating Ethereum on Bitcoin. And that was, that was too loud. Cheers. Everyone was for that back then. So, so it's, I don't know why things are so different now. But I think it's a mistake. 40:59 Hello, Mr. Ethan. We have a giant purple E. 41:07 Okay. Um, I have, like, I've been trying to understand, um, the way that, that BIP300 proposes that you would be able to transfer the control of a Bitcoin, you know, with a gated redemption. 41:31 Um, but like, if I if I was to, to transfer my Bitcoin, through a BIP300, like block, and on something that like, let's say I had had turn complete scripting, and then I and then I paid someone with that, that like turn complete Bitcoin sidechain, then I would still be able to induce a redemption. 42:01 Back to main chain. Correct? 42:31 But the miners themselves can only unlock it in a very, very, very difficult way that involves a lot of them cooperating over a long period of time over something they pre agreed to do. So it's, it's, it's the whole, the whole point of BIP300 is to make it very difficult for miners to take these, the coins or send them to any direction other than the direction that the sidechain wants them to go. So I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, but 43:00 you cannot unilaterally withdraw to L1. I sacrificed that. And because I don't know when you joined, but I was saying that's actually trying to support that and service that is, I think, really killing lightning network and even something like arc, where because it's, you're very vulnerable to L1 fees changing, and you're like, the whole point of supporting that is this huge, huge draw that actually ends up making it kind of not really work. 43:27 And at the end of the day, the miners can actually steal from those things anyway, by just sense they can censor the justice transaction in LN. So since they can already do that, I'm kind of sacrificing something that's already basically been sacrificed. This is my point of view. But of course, my point of view is a very fringe point of view that most people don't totally agree with yet. But nonetheless, I think it's right. So is this making any sense so far? No. 43:54 Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I was thinking that, you know, it would take, like, it was my understanding that you could very easily transfer any of your Bitcoin to a sidechain. But that mean that you could take it back, but it would only it would take 90 days. 44:17 What you do, what happened, what it literally is happening on L1 is the coins are spent into something that only the miners can unspend via this long 90 day thing. But the issue is, the design or the intent, how you would take it back would be you put the coins in, on the sidechain, you would do whatever the sidechain is doing that makes it a BIP300, it's like a BIP300 library, you would initiate the withdrawal over there. 44:47 The sidechain would add you to the list of people. This is like people getting in line to get on a train or something. 44:53 Okay. 44:55 You're added, you're added on, this is on L2, L1's not seeing any of this. And then when it's time for the next train to leave, because there's only one globally for the whole sidechain. 45:06 And it's next to leave, it loads up like 20,000 passengers, yourself included, it loads you into the one transaction that's going to pay everyone out, which is like a big fan out coin join style type of thing, which is like, it's going to pay this one TX ID that's going to pay everyone out. 45:27 So it's, the sidechain will do that. And the sidechain software is automatically doing that. And this is all identical for everyone. This is all on L2. 45:36 And when the sidechain does that, it will calculate the TX ID that does that. And that is this critical hash that has to take three to six months. 45:47 Whether that's included on L1 Coinbase, that is what gets upvoted, or cross-chain confirmed, or whatever you want to call it, for three to six months. 45:57 And when that goes through, then that can be included on L1, and then you get paid out. 46:01 So it's not really ever anything that you do unilaterally to get the money back. It is always the miners who put this thing in L1. 46:12 And the design is just supposed to be, the miners have no, it's because it's pigeonholed into one thing every three months, that it's just too awkward, for lack of a better word, for miners to put a hash in there that is not the single hash that is reported by the sidechain for that three-month period. 46:32 So there's only one sidechain reported by sidechain for everyone, one withdrawal hash for January, February, March. It's just there. 46:43 And then there's only space for one withdrawal on L1. 46:48 And you can try different hashes and try to get them up, but ultimately only one will be able to get the 13,000 votes. 46:56 So that's the idea, is that the miners initiate the withdrawal, and the withdrawal is defined by a hash. 47:04 The sidechain has determined what that hash should be already, and those hashes, they either match or they don't. 47:13 If they don't, then the sidechain's dead probably, and possibly the whole Drivechain idea is dead also. 47:20 But if they match, then everything works perfectly fine, and there is no need to support, you have total freedom to do whatever you want with the coins. 47:32 I see, I see. So that means that the sidechain, in theory, could also, depending on how it's run, they could deny you the right to redeem them back? 47:50 Yes, if the sidechain is very badly designed... 47:54 Yes, if the sidechain is very badly designed, like one example is, what if the sidechain is so badly designed that the software never runs or is never even produced? 48:01 Then no one will ever know what this hash is supposed to be, or who has tried to withdraw, and no one will know the fate of these coins. 48:09 And then another thing is, of course, they could program something so that on L2, this could be like a very centralized sidechain, 48:17 there's like an admin key that can take people's coins. If there is such a thing, they take your coins, and then they initiate the withdrawal to their L1 address, 48:30 and then they join the line with your coins, but the sidechain will calculate for everyone. They'll say, here's the next people getting on the bus or getting on the train, 48:40 and then you will have really no recourse in that particular situation. But this is, of course, desirable, because you start on L1 with your coins, and then it's kind of like choosing to go to a hotel or something. 48:56 You start in your own house on L1, and the sidechain developers, they have to convince you, no, deposit to this sidechain, it's going to be great. 49:05 If they don't, you just don't do it. Or maybe you put $20 in and you experiment, and you say, this is going pretty well. And then you put more money, they accumulate reputation. 49:16 But it's the fact that the sidechain developer will be blamed. That is the key, because that is how we have competition among different chains, which is exactly what we want. 49:31 Yeah, all right. That actually makes a lot more sense to me. I appreciate it. 49:38 Sure thing. Thanks for your question. Okay. Tryptonomics, yes, hello. 49:47 I remember you from last week, I think, or the week before. 49:52 Yeah, I'm sorry. What did you say in that last part? Did you say S-O-L? 49:57 S-O-L? 50:07 Anyway, hello. 50:08 Hello. 50:09 Hello. 50:10 Yeah. So yeah, this hashing method, once every three months, and then the matching of it, and reducing the potentiality of tokens being redirected, and essentially reducing theft. 50:25 That's great. So I was thinking, I remember colored coins. And if this is off topic, I'll move on. 50:34 But I think when NFTs are so popular, because they're just popular and people don't understand why they're popular. 50:41 And then some people actually understand the benefits of them, if they could actually be used in the real world. 50:51 But in terms of on-chain, colored coins were interesting because they just colored a portion of Bitcoin to represent the real world asset on chain. 51:00 And so we had, well, you know, we had that area on chain that was essentially highlighted to represent the real world assets on chain and designate the NFT. 51:17 And so with Drivechains, essentially, Drivechains are doing the same thing, but with this new matching methodology. 51:25 Is that right? That you were just describing? 51:30 I would say actually ordinals are very similar to colored coins. 51:36 What happens with Drivechains, you really just spend them into a script so that the coins themselves are highlighted, as you say. 51:43 But there's a specific like UTXO that is just the UTXO that is paid to OPNOT5 or whatever. 51:56 And those are all the coins that are in sidechain slot number three or something. 52:01 So if there's like 30,000 coins in there, they are in that, but they are protected by this opcode. 52:06 So you could think of that as kind of a highlighted thing, but it really is. 52:10 If you try to withdraw those coins, like without going through the 13,000 ACK counter thing, then you will not, then it will invalidate the block. 52:22 So it's a little different than colored coins, which had no teeth. 52:30 It had no purchase on the L1 block validity rules at all. 52:34 But it's sort of a different deal. 52:37 Well, yeah, there was just like the, it wasn't like it was colored coins. 52:43 It was not the case that if you, for example, mixed a red coin with a blue coin, it would like be an invalid transaction. 52:52 Sure. L1 would just do that. 52:54 And then you'd be like, whoops, I destroyed the coins, which is kind of funny thing about ordinals. 53:00 It's kind of solved that problem, but it also had other problems. 53:04 But it's kind of like the coins, they have a, there's a particular way of reordering them. 53:10 So you can always get the color back was my understanding. 53:15 But apparently now they have changed that because of something else. 53:21 So, okay. 53:23 It's similar. 53:24 But NFTs on Bitcoin via Drivechains. 53:33 One, in terms of theft, it's a lot more difficult to initiate theft and redirect the wallet addresses and the tokens. 53:45 But how about actually writing an NFT to a real world asset and representing that via Bitcoin on a Drivechain? 53:57 Is it going to be less or more difficult via a Drivechain? 54:02 Like if we want to represent whatever that is. 54:04 My vision for the right way to do this is to make, I think we don't really want this to be on the L1 chain. 54:15 Even though it already is, of course, because of colored coins, BRC20, et cetera, ordinals, inscriptions, RGB, et cetera. 54:25 So I think we don't want it to be on L1 and we should build it. 54:31 And we should build it. 54:33 And since it's already possible on every single chain, it's already possible. 54:36 You know what I mean? 54:37 Like if we built the large block sidechain for scaling or the Zcash sidechain, you could have ordinals over there. 54:46 And so people can already do it on any chain. 54:50 So my thought is people really like doing this. 54:54 They're not going to stop anytime soon. 54:56 We'll build them their own chain just for this. 55:00 Where Bitcoin is always the money unit and Bitcoin always pays the transaction fees. 55:05 We'll domesticate all of this, you know, this weird activity. 55:09 And we'll put all these in a little zoo. 55:11 And we'll make a nice piece of software where people can click a button and they can upload an image. 55:15 They can put their Pepe or their funny image in, their ape or whatever they want to put in there. 55:20 And this is called BitAssets. 55:24 And we have a version of that that we've already made, but it's kind of clunky. 55:31 So I said we'd just make a chain where you send BTC back and forth. 55:36 So the BTC would be how you register a new asset. 55:39 You pay like a normal transaction fee to create, you know, a crypto coin or whatever you want to make. 55:47 Or something or shares of GE or representatives of a certain bond or a token that represents ownership in a club. 55:57 Or concert tickets, you know, Taylor Swift tickets or something or Super Bowl tickets. 56:03 And so you make those things and over there and people buy and sell them with BTC. 56:09 And it's all like you have like a DEX over there and you do all that stuff over there. 56:12 Then people can take BTC from that L2 back to L1 if they don't want to dwell on the BitAssets sidechain. 56:21 And that's kind of like how I think it would work. 56:24 So we'd have this sidechain that just does all that, topical sidechains. 56:28 And one for, you know, basically NFTs, BitAssets, whatever you want to call it, colored coins. 56:35 But during the Blind Merged Mining process, wouldn't it just kind of clone the NFTs on that blockchain anyway? 56:42 And sometimes the native token on an altcoin, on an altchain is not an ERC20 for instance. 56:51 It's an ERC721. 56:54 So wouldn't Bitcoin just – wouldn't the NFT just be denominated in Bitcoin anyway via Blind Merged Mining in that instance? 57:07 Well, Blind Merged Mining is how you find the next block. 57:11 And so it's also optional. 57:15 And so you can – I think everyone will use it though, but I think that it's sort of optional. 57:22 And the separation of miner from sidechain node is even optional if you're using BIP301. 57:30 It could be the same person and it will. 57:33 As far as long as the node is very cheap, it won't make any difference. 57:35 So no one will actually use it unless the node becomes expensive. 57:40 The separation idea. 57:42 So it won't change those types of things about it. 57:45 And as for being 721 versus ERC20, that's why I think we should just build a special purpose chain that already has it all predefined. 57:56 And I think that then it will be standardized forever. 57:58 And I think the chain itself, at the chain level, it should support a lot of these things. 58:08 State and like which ones are for sale, for how much, which ones are being auctioned off, you know, have liquidity. 58:16 So that's what I think is the – I think that's the way to go. 58:20 I think that's the way to go. 58:22 But even if you don't go that way, we should keep in mind that people will probably obtain this idea in various other formats 58:32 because it's just such a popular idea anyway. 58:35 It's just, you know, like you said, colored coins and whatnot. 58:41 I mean, that would increase the fees as well, right? 58:47 There's an entire – the layer two designated specifically for the purposes of NFTs. 58:54 So like let's say we want to transfer a portfolio with ERC20s, for instance. 59:00 Sorry, I'm using so much Ethereum. 59:02 But ERC20s and ERC721s, we have to pay the miners double or – yeah, you have to pay the miners double to process them. 59:13 Well, yeah, but anyway, I understand. 59:17 Why do you bring that up though? 59:19 Because anything you transfer, you have to pay a blockchain transaction fee for. 59:28 Yeah, I was just thinking maybe there's a way to – if you have a portfolio that you want to transfer, 59:34 if you can do it all in a single transaction even though the tokens are separate contracts. 59:40 Well, probably you – in the BitAssets spec that I wrote a long time ago, 59:48 that spec, they're all just outputs. 59:53 They're all just like their own UTXOs kind of. 59:57 So you just select them all and then you pay them out. 59:59 And actually, it all just works – easier said than done. 1:00:04 But it all just works automatically because it's tracking output type. 1:00:08 The database is tracking the output type. 1:00:11 And so that was a design I had. 1:00:14 I don't know if anyone – who knows what design would be popular among developers and users and things. 1:00:19 But that's kind of designed to build that. 1:00:23 And so in that way, they would all be the same. 1:00:27 But the overhead that you save is not that much because the overhead of a given transaction is not that much in a Bitcoin. 1:00:32 Sure. 1:00:33 UTXO-style transaction, it's really just the inputs are most of the transaction, the inputs. 1:00:41 All right. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. 1:00:44 Yeah, sure. Thank you. 1:00:45 Cool. Great. 1:00:47 Well, this space, you know, is only possible because of people coming up and asking questions. 1:00:54 So feel free to come up. 1:00:58 Mike in space, come up. 1:01:00 Haven't heard from Mike in space in so long. 1:01:03 Mike in space, come up. 1:01:12 Haven't heard from Mike in space in so long. 1:01:16 Come up and tell us about Ordinal's drama. 1:01:19 Or don't. 1:01:21 Whatever he's up to. 1:01:23 May I request SkyDoge to come up as they've adopted BIP300 already? 1:01:28 You have the crazy altcoin that has adopted BIP300. 1:01:33 And they have very, very funny GIFs. 1:01:36 GIFs. 1:01:38 Which chain is adopted BIP300 now? 1:01:45 SkyDoge is an alt, that altcoin. 1:01:48 They are very funny. 1:01:54 And they hang out in the Drivechain telegram. 1:01:56 Oh, now we have a Mobius strip. 1:01:58 That's a one-dimensional shape, everyone. 1:02:04 Hello. 1:02:06 Hello. 1:02:13 We can't hear you at all. 1:02:15 Oh, and it's not, of course, it's not a one-dimensional shape. 1:02:17 It's a one-sided shape. 1:02:19 That's my mistake. 1:02:21 Yeah, you can have a multidimensional one-sided shape, right? 1:02:23 Three or four dimensions. 1:02:25 Absolutely. 1:02:27 There's only one side. 1:02:29 It's a Unotope or something. 1:02:32 Actually, Unahedron, right? 1:02:33 If I remember my obscure Greek versions of math terms. 1:02:40 I think Hedra meant like a dodecahedron, 1:02:44 or that meant like multi, 1:02:46 it's like 12-seated or something. 1:02:48 Hedra was seat, I think. 1:02:50 So that's just faced, multi-faced. 1:02:55 Anyway, Mobius, you are muted. 1:02:58 So, and we can't hear you. 1:03:00 Can anyone hear him? 1:03:03 No. 1:03:07 Well, we may need a new microphone. 1:03:10 Sky Doge. 1:03:14 Maybe you go down and come back again. 1:03:17 Maybe it's the app. 1:03:19 I think Sky Doge speaks only the language of GIFs 1:03:23 and references to N64 speed running. 1:03:33 Okay. 1:03:48 Well, he's the strong and silent type. 1:03:51 Maybe to break the silence, 1:03:54 maybe I can ask a question like regarding the side, 1:03:58 the Drivechain nodes. 1:03:59 Can you kind of like shortly explain 1:04:03 what then, I mean, 1:04:05 like for people to understand, 1:04:08 like, you know, what did the nodes, 1:04:12 like how many sidechains can support one node? 1:04:16 Is it any incentive running the node and stuff like that? 1:04:19 You know, like just general, 1:04:22 you know, about the nodes, 1:04:24 because we all the time focus about this, 1:04:26 you know, ping pong going for the L1 and Drivechains. 1:04:31 But, you know, 1:04:33 I think nodes on the Drivechain nodes 1:04:37 are also important, you know, 1:04:39 to be explained properly. 1:04:41 Well, do you mean L1 node 1:04:43 that enforces BIP300 1:04:45 or do you mean a node of the sidechain? 1:04:47 No, no, node of the sidechain. 1:04:50 Is it the, 1:04:52 when you run the Drivechain node, 1:04:54 is it only, 1:04:56 can support only one sidechain 1:04:58 or it's a specific only for one sidechain 1:05:01 or you can run multiple sidechains on one node? 1:05:04 Any software application can call 1:05:07 other software applications like, 1:05:10 you know, and depend on them. 1:05:12 So it's kind of like how, 1:05:14 I really shouldn't give 1:05:16 a weird example like this, 1:05:18 but I'm going to try to say like, 1:05:20 like in gaming, like everyone's running like 1:05:21 Microsoft C++ redistributable 1:05:24 or something. 1:05:26 Or like, 1:05:27 what is the other thing everyone has to run? 1:05:29 JavaScript runtime environment, 1:05:30 you know, 1:05:31 so I don't know if that's, 1:05:32 that's not very relatable, 1:05:33 I think, but 1:05:35 you could run a piece of software 1:05:36 that loads 1:05:38 two different sidechain nodes. 1:05:40 But other than that, 1:05:41 it's one sidechain node 1:05:43 per sidechain itself. 1:05:45 So. 1:05:46 Okay. Yeah. 1:05:47 You know, it's like the way it works is 1:05:49 it's like, 1:05:50 you know, 1:05:51 it's like you, 1:05:52 it's like you sit down at a restaurant, 1:05:54 an Italian restaurant, 1:05:55 and you get the bread for free. 1:05:56 That's like the L1 Bitcoin node. 1:05:59 Everyone gets the bread 1:06:00 and then you order whatever you want. 1:06:02 So like some people want to order 1:06:03 the lasagna 1:06:04 or whatever. 1:06:06 And they order the lasagna 1:06:08 and 1:06:09 someone else orders only 1:06:11 the soup. 1:06:13 So, and then at the end, 1:06:15 everyone, if you pay, 1:06:16 if you bought lasagna, 1:06:17 you pay for the lasagna 1:06:18 and if you, 1:06:20 you pay in the form of running the node. 1:06:22 You must run the node 1:06:23 on your computer. 1:06:25 You must use the CPO 1:06:26 and bandwidth resources. 1:06:27 So if you run like a Bitcoin SV node, 1:06:30 it's going to cost a lot. 1:06:32 But then you get 1:06:33 the 1:06:34 lobster ravioli 1:06:36 or whatever it is, 1:06:38 you know, 1:06:39 the filet mignon. 1:06:41 So, 1:06:42 and then people are like, 1:06:43 Paul, how does this all work? 1:06:44 It's amazing. 1:06:45 And I'm like, well, no, 1:06:46 the people who are running the nodes, 1:06:47 they're the really the ones paying. 1:06:48 All I am doing 1:06:49 is having everyone sit 1:06:50 at the same table 1:06:51 and I say, 1:06:52 if you didn't order 1:06:53 the 1:06:55 filet mignon, 1:06:56 then you don't have to pay for it. 1:06:57 And then people say, 1:06:58 Paul, this idea is 1:07:00 so complicated, 1:07:01 it'll take 10 years 1:07:02 for anyone to understand it. 1:07:04 And then I'm just like, 1:07:05 okay, I guess. 1:07:09 So, I don't know if that helps, 1:07:10 but yeah, 1:07:11 it's like each sidechain 1:07:12 is its own node. 1:07:13 I think 1:07:14 it's plausible 1:07:15 that someone will eventually 1:07:16 release a piece of software 1:07:17 that actually contains 1:07:18 every node 1:07:19 to be like the 1:07:20 the big 1:07:22 thing. 1:07:23 And 1:07:24 but 1:07:25 it'll always be possible 1:07:26 to run 1:07:27 Bitcoin Core only. 1:07:29 Yeah, 1:07:30 like, 1:07:31 if 1:07:32 let's say there is 1:07:33 a Zcash 1:07:34 sidechain, 1:07:35 the node 1:07:36 what 1:07:37 I want to run 1:07:38 will be only 1:07:39 for the Zcash sidechain. 1:07:40 If I want to 1:07:41 support 1:07:42 other sidechain, 1:07:43 I need to run 1:07:44 another node. 1:07:45 Download that node 1:07:46 and that node 1:07:47 has its own blockchain. 1:07:48 So, 1:07:49 it's a new node, 1:07:50 new blockchain, 1:07:51 new blocks, 1:07:52 new UTXO set. 1:07:53 And 1:07:54 if you 1:07:55 download our software 1:07:56 then you 1:07:57 you'll see it for yourself 1:07:58 because the little launcher 1:07:59 will open 1:08:00 and it'll ask you like 1:08:01 which 1:08:02 sidechain nodes 1:08:03 do you want to download? 1:08:04 They're like downloading 1:08:05 plugins 1:08:06 a little bit. 1:08:07 Yeah, 1:08:08 yeah, 1:08:09 yeah. 1:08:10 So, that's how it works. 1:08:11 The launcher 1:08:12 is very nicely 1:08:13 done and 1:08:14 I downloaded 1:08:15 also the 1:08:16 the main 1:08:17 the main 1:08:18 the full blockchain 1:08:19 which was 1:08:20 very fine, 1:08:21 you know. 1:08:22 It was interesting 1:08:23 like the 1:08:24 you know, 1:08:25 the test 1:08:26 CPU mining 1:08:27 of the test tokens 1:08:28 or coins. 1:08:29 Yeah, 1:08:30 that's fun, right? 1:08:31 Yeah. 1:08:32 Sure, why not? 1:08:33 It's fun. 1:08:34 I think it's great 1:08:35 and I like doing that 1:08:36 with the 1:08:37 we have the big version 1:08:38 which is like 1:08:39 kind of a more 1:08:40 serious test 1:08:41 which is like 1:08:42 it has 1:08:43 Bitcoin history 1:08:44 and everything 1:08:45 and then we have the 1:08:46 the PlayMoney 1:08:47 the launcher 1:08:48 just does 1:08:49 PlayMoney 1:08:50 resets the blockchain 1:08:51 for everyone 1:08:53 so there's no 1:08:55 there's really no 1:08:56 overhead. 1:08:57 You can just start clicking 1:08:58 on things 1:08:59 pretty quickly 1:09:00 although that one 1:09:01 also that will 1:09:02 find a block 1:09:03 every 1:09:04 second 1:09:05 or every two seconds 1:09:06 or so. 1:09:07 So, if you just 1:09:08 leave it on 1:09:09 and come back 1:09:10 the next day 1:09:11 it will just 1:09:12 I think it eventually 1:09:13 has some kind of 1:09:14 performance issue 1:09:15 on. 1:09:16 Yeah, it's a quick 1:09:17 Yeah, I think 1:09:18 I think the 1:09:19 the launcher 1:09:20 when it was 1:09:21 last week 1:09:22 I think 1:09:23 was not available 1:09:24 to download 1:09:25 the 1:09:26 the sidechains 1:09:27 but I think 1:09:28 now is 1:09:29 so 1:09:30 I will 1:09:31 New version 1:09:32 is produced 1:09:33 Yeah 1:09:34 and it has more 1:09:35 stuff for 1:09:36 Windows and Mac 1:09:37 normally 1:09:38 it's all 1:09:39 Linux at first 1:09:40 and then we 1:09:41 you know 1:09:42 we add the 1:09:43 Windows stuff 1:09:44 and then 1:09:45 if people 1:09:46 are in a really 1:09:47 really good mood 1:09:49 one Mac 1:09:50 thing will 1:09:51 get added 1:09:53 but we're gonna 1:09:54 add more of that 1:09:55 so 1:09:56 we have to get 1:09:57 all that stuff 1:09:58 for like 1:09:59 you know how 1:10:00 they do it 1:10:01 the CI 1:10:02 and the 1:10:03 GitHub actions 1:10:04 and stuff 1:10:05 we have to 1:10:06 we have to 1:10:07 once we get that 1:10:08 done then it 1:10:09 should be 1:10:10 permanently 1:10:11 fixed 1:10:12 so 1:10:13 but that's just kind of 1:10:14 a chore right now 1:10:15 Yeah the launcher 1:10:16 is like 1:10:17 I mean 1:10:18 I download 1:10:19 on Windows 1:10:20 and it's like 1:10:21 2-3 minutes 1:10:22 just you know 1:10:23 like 1:10:24 download 1:10:25 open and 1:10:26 run the 1:10:27 the node 1:10:28 and 1:10:29 yeah 1:10:30 that's very 1:10:31 quick 1:10:32 yeah 1:10:33 I mean 1:10:34 people can 1:10:35 can 1:10:36 you know 1:10:37 check themselves 1:10:38 test is 1:10:39 yeah 1:10:47 well we have 1:10:48 a flavor 1:10:49 and we have 1:10:50 Andres 1:10:52 so 1:10:53 welcome to the stage 1:10:57 nice to see both of you again 1:10:59 can you hear me? 1:11:01 yes 1:11:03 all right 1:11:04 so I don't 1:11:05 it's not really a question 1:11:06 but I just wanted to 1:11:07 comment 1:11:08 I used to be 1:11:09 against Drivechains 1:11:11 until fairly recently 1:11:13 and I just recently 1:11:14 saw the light 1:11:16 so 1:11:17 yeah just 1:11:19 in case you feel 1:11:20 this kind of 1:11:22 thank you thank you 1:11:23 in case you feel 1:11:24 this kind of 1:11:26 promotion doesn't work 1:11:27 just so you know 1:11:28 you're convincing some people 1:11:31 hey thanks 1:11:32 well you know 1:11:33 a lot of people are amazed 1:11:34 they say 1:11:35 Paul how do you do all this 1:11:36 whatever blah blah blah 1:11:37 but you know 1:11:38 the thing is 1:11:39 this has actually happened 1:11:40 in Bitcoin a lot 1:11:41 and in fact 1:11:42 one irony 1:11:43 is that Peter Todd 1:11:44 was once hated 1:11:45 and he was this 1:11:46 big small blocker 1:11:47 and he was 1:11:48 hated 1:11:49 by everyone 1:11:50 and he 1:11:51 in like 2013 1:11:52 and eventually 1:11:53 everyone kind of 1:11:54 like came over 1:11:55 to his point of view 1:11:56 really 1:11:57 so it's kind of funny 1:11:58 really 1:11:59 and 1:12:00 this type of thing 1:12:01 has happened a lot 1:12:03 and 1:12:04 you know 1:12:05 if people 1:12:06 definitely like 1:12:07 it doesn't really bother me 1:12:08 at all 1:12:09 when people 1:12:10 say 1:12:11 like if people say 1:12:12 I heard about Drivechain 1:12:13 like two weeks ago 1:12:14 it sounds risky 1:12:15 it's like well 1:12:16 they only heard about it 1:12:17 two weeks ago 1:12:18 so 1:12:19 I heard about it 1:12:20 eight and a half years ago 1:12:21 so 1:12:22 obviously 1:12:23 it's a lot less risky 1:12:24 to me 1:12:26 someone you've known 1:12:27 for eight and a half years 1:12:28 is 1:12:30 not 1:12:31 you know 1:12:32 you have a better 1:12:33 understanding of that person 1:12:34 than someone that you 1:12:35 know 1:12:36 so it's kind of like 1:12:37 whatever 1:12:38 and you know 1:12:39 bitcoin has been doing 1:12:40 very well 1:12:41 on the whole 1:12:42 for the last 1:12:43 you know 1:12:44 eight ten years 1:12:45 so 1:12:46 so it's just kind of 1:12:47 easy to have 1:12:48 keep things in 1:12:49 perspective 1:12:50 and I think that 1:12:51 yeah I think 1:12:52 it's just great 1:12:53 and just 1:12:54 continue to 1:12:55 have a new 1:12:56 page about 1:12:57 FUD 1:12:58 that I'm going to try to release today I hope 1:13:03 so 1:13:24 the phone brand new phone and I don't know I think I'm ready to blame Elon he's firing too 1:13:31 many people Elon only fire only fire 65% don't fire 70% because I don't know why this seems to 1:13:42 mostly be happening to me though notably it doesn't happen to the LayerTwo Labs phone which 1:13:48 would crash the whole space so I don't know why this is happening but it constantly happens oh 1:13:53 well anyway so yeah we have the FUD page and I think just people just continue to talk about 1:13:59 the idea and that it has these benefits and it doesn't really have these risks and that bitcoin 1:14:06 people should be free to use bitcoin in whatever way they want and it does not affect it's not 1:14:11 going to negatively affect anything that your L1 node is doing today so in that sense it's really 1:14:18 not a change at all and people are not required to upgrade to BIP300 which should kind of be a clue 1:14:25 that it is it is harmless because your node will still be doing what it did before 1:14:33 it's not like people can take your coins this is just a new option for people and yeah so 1:14:40 I'm really happy to hear that so that's good so thanks for your comment I also heard that Elon's 1:14:47 just firing robots now as well he just he's going after the robots too he doesn't want any AI 1:14:56 Elon get AI can we get chap at GPT-4 to update my my Twitter app or my X app 1:15:06 you're gonna need Elon you're gonna need the app not to crash if you want it to become the 1:15:11 everything payment super media app so anyway hello Mr. Flavor is here hello 1:15:20 all thanks for having me on so I saw earlier this week you had done a lengthy reply to 1:15:27 Safedine Amous and a message of his was getting some traction and I was just wondering if you 1:15:34 could speak to that a little bit and if you would talk about your relationship with Safedine 1:15:41 yeah sure so Safedine you know he was this guy long ago I mean you see in the tweet I post he's 1:15:52 he wrote this recently he wrote this open letter against BIP300 which has nothing it has nothing at 1:15:57 all to do with BIP300 he just doesn't like me personally because I tweeted about not liking 1:16:02 his book and he is a vindictive person which is fine I mean as a game theorist 1:16:08 vindictiveness is has its advantages uh there's even a strategy it's even we have a name for it 1:16:15 called grim trigger where if someone betrays you you never forgive them this is a game theorist 1:16:21 approved in some contexts it's in it's improved when you really want someone to never betray you 1:16:28 once but in the real world where that has a lot of dynamism it doesn't work and this is what you 1:16:35 are all about to experience as I explain this to you so he he does this kind of thing very often 1:16:42 where he said that thing about music after all art including all music after 1971 is fiat and 1:16:49 just terrible and uh Peter McCormack tried to say well what about like such and such and he's like 1:16:57 whatever you suck and then they got into like a little fight and you see the grim trigger world 1:17:01 is a very dangerous place where there's the slightest misunderstanding everyone is shooting 1:17:06 each other in the head and we all die so it's it's not applicable to every situation um and 1:17:13 certainly now when there's nuance and misunderstanding and so so he's just like uh you 1:17:19 know he's like a certain this is a certain type of character and this is what he wants to be he 1:17:24 wants to be this like high priest person where people give him respect and acknowledge him as 1:17:32 like uh like a some kind of a cultural figure and uh that is really what it is it has nothing to do 1:17:41 with he doesn't actually know anything about BIP300 and most of the as you saw most of his open 1:17:46 letter and so he's blocked me so he just he writes this open letter but I have no way of seeing it 1:17:51 until someone else screenshots it it sends it sends it to me and the bulk of it was just about 1:17:56 him saying that he would not upgrade his node to support BIP300 but that doesn't make any 1:18:02 difference because it's a soft fork it's only the hard fork that requires everyone to upgrade so 1:18:08 so the entire thing was just pointless and he did have like you know some things to say about 1:18:13 how he doesn't agree with the motivation section which is uh which is fine but the motivation 1:18:19 section is the same reason Blockstream was created so so you can read my reply but uh 1:18:26 I think the more important thing is to just comment on like the nature of this person which is he 1:18:32 he you know he has these strong opinions he's doing this kind of like edge lording 1:18:36 kind of thing he's doing like trying to do like an esteem to lab thing he knows you know it's 1:18:40 it's good Nassim Taleb pointed this out in in um the black swan he said what if I got into a fist 1:18:47 fight with someone at a book signing he mentions this to his agent and the agents this is kind of 1:18:52 like well that would be terrible but then he's like oh wait a minute because it would be they 1:18:57 realize it would be good for book sales so you know you're anti-fragile you want any kind of 1:19:02 controversy anything they can give you attention you know like a Jenna Maroney character from 30 1:19:06 rock it's like it doesn't matter as long as people are giving you attention and this is also also 1:19:12 partially based on this guy Mercha Popescu who ran this trilemma blog and this guy was 1:19:17 assuredly a genius but I think he was mistaken about something big which is he thought bitcoin 1:19:24 never needs to change and in particular he thought bitcoin doesn't need adoption because people will 1:19:28 come come crawling and he's a patient zero of this idea and he lived in a time when bitcoin was doing 1:19:37 very very well and the the competitors to it were all just would just complete garbage so he was 1:19:44 right to be overconfident and he was also right to want to preserve bitcoin's properties I notably I 1:19:51 once asked this character Mercha Popescu on IRC about sidechains and he said that he he gave the 1:19:57 only smart answer that I had heard anyone give at that time which he said I don't know I have to 1:20:03 learn more about them so uh that's how smart that guy was he was the smartest guy around because at 1:20:07 the time there was no code and there was no anything this was like 2015 or 2014 or something 1:20:13 so so this guy was a brilliant guy Mercha Popescu and he was uh very very rude to people but uh with 1:20:22 utter brilliance and and style and he was uh and he's he's a crazy person of course but he's a 1:20:29 genius and he like uh he once hacked a FetLife uh fetish website or some website like that 1:20:37 and downloaded everyone all the women's profiles and pictures and posted them somewhere 1:20:42 this is quite a character and he's a brilliant guy and the point of I'm trying to make though is 1:20:48 people think that if they're as rude as him then they will also be as intelligent as 1:20:53 as him and they are wrong they only manage to copy the the kind of rudeness and they're also 1:21:00 trying to do the uh you know this idea of the edgelording and just a hot really hot take so you 1:21:07 get you get attention and you get relevance and uh so that's all that it is it has nothing to do 1:21:13 with anything but you know my I'll give you my complete relationship with him is that long ago 1:21:16 he asked me for help writing this article and my view is the article is a lot largely riffing off 1:21:22 of things that I had already written I had written this essay of limits of blockchain tech 1:21:26 and then he wanted to write this paper about it and as you see in the reply he emailed me about 1:21:30 it and then he he couldn't thank me enough and he said I hope to repay you fittingly one day 1:21:36 and then uh like a year later or whatever on twitter he uh was asking me someone someone 1:21:42 asked about his book and I said it wasn't very good and only three chapters of it were about 1:21:45 bitcoin and it was I had all this irrelevant junk stapled into it which I believe and which I think 1:21:52 is now a widely expected widely like shared point of view that he is commenting on all this stuff 1:22:00 that doesn't have anything to do with bitcoin really uh and so I was disappointed in it and 1:22:05 I think he's drunk this uh this kool-aid this is this is like Rothbard Hanselman Hoppe book uh 1:22:13 direction about the time preference and about um uh democracy the god that failed and a lot of his 1:22:20 material is basically just ripped off from that stuff and none of that stuff is any good so it's 1:22:27 kind of a rambling answer but that was why I didn't like his book because I thought he's just 1:22:30 copy pasting stuff that other people wrote and it's not very good he's taking stuff from bitcoin 1:22:35 all the good parts were just good stuff taken from bitcoin talk so I thought it was fine that 1:22:40 someone wrote a book about bitcoin but anyway long story short he uh he objected to that comment on 1:22:46 twitter and I asked him about uh objective and uh like a dependent and independent variables 1:22:56 and from this he just assumed that I am some kind of weird positivist 1:23:01 who are the enemies of I suppose the Austrian school even though I'm not at all I'm also an I'm 1:23:08 a a Karl Popper critical rationalist and so uh we are also enemies of the positivists 1:23:17 although we're often confused for positivists as was this occasion and so then he uh just got into 1:23:22 this thing and he said that uh uh that uh well that is a bunch of junk and and then he said that 1:23:28 I worked for block which was true at the time back in 2016 I worked for Jeff Garzik's startup 1:23:36 which there's a lot to say about that but would take too long or if you want to ask about it I 1:23:41 will maybe answer it I guess but uh I said well you know uh as far as I know you also work for 1:23:48 block and that was a comment on logic because I was saying I don't know all the people that 1:23:55 are being given money by block the LOQ uh I don't know that so isn't it an irrelevant ad hominem so 1:24:03 I was it was just a purely logical point but then he was like so offended by this that he blocked 1:24:09 me immediately and so then uh as is my practice when someone blocks me I just block them back 1:24:15 just because I think blocking is so silly that I thought okay fine and uh then I think that's 1:24:23 the whole thing is that uh people have um I think tried to talk to him about this idea and they ask 1:24:29 him about the idea and they go back and forth and it's all just about his uh reputation and his ego 1:24:36 and he thinks that if this it's just it's BIP300 is just collateral damage he just thinks that if I 1:24:42 get more prestige in any way it will be bad for him and so that's the whole that's the entire thing 1:24:50 and so would it be bad for him I ask well uh if you were to gain more prestige uh you know I 1:24:57 honestly think of him as uh a very small fish to fry and I think I have much bigger fish to fry so 1:25:03 I I don't even like I don't even get it but I think that I think he does represent the I wrote 1:25:12 an essay that I never published but maybe it's really hard because I read a lot of things that 1:25:15 I don't publish and I try to get it out but the one essay was about Austrian economics and I write 1:25:21 about how helpful I found it to be and but also why I ultimately abandoned it and uh so the essay 1:25:28 was called Austrian economics to join it then leave and Brian Kaplan wrote a similar essay that 1:25:33 exists and that you can find and um but it's but maybe that would help I don't know but I just 1:25:43 think it is you know the Austrian econ is great because traditional econ has so many problems 1:25:49 and so you think this sucks and then you feel like oh Austria no this is good this is making 1:25:54 progress but then you you look around and you're like this kind of also sucks if you really think 1:25:59 about it so so that's just my point of view and I I always push the envelope so when I see someone 1:26:06 who is merely a few steps ahead of most people which is what I think he is I just think uh I 1:26:15 don't care because I'm going I'm sprinting to the finish line as quickly as possible so I don't know 1:26:21 I mean the the sad truth is it probably this is probably unavoidable at this point because he's 1:26:26 probably like talk so much trash you know by his own hand he is creating this whole 1:26:34 you know this whole narrative or this whole thing so it's and I think this is it's not the only one 1:26:39 most of the people against BIP300 I think are just people that at one point or another I have 1:26:44 called out for just being you know just mediocrities are just not impressive according 1:26:50 to me it doesn't mean that you know it doesn't mean that they're not worthy of being loved and 1:26:57 that they shouldn't have their own uh shouldn't be able to sell books or something but you know 1:27:00 I have absurdly high standards so that's just my own opinion I'm pretty difficult to impress 1:27:07 for your part you you don't really have any animosity towards him or others and you believe 1:27:13 that his uh detracting from BIP300 is mostly politically motivated right yeah I think people 1:27:21 don't it might reassure such people if they really had an idea of the fish that I'm really trying to 1:27:27 fry and I think that if they went to bitcoinhivemind.com and they watched the 20-minute 1:27:34 video there they would see that I find all of this uh this palace affair of bitcoin development 1:27:44 to be a very very small a very low on the it's a small issue and as far as things that I'm more 1:27:55 interested in so I don't even you know and a lot of these people are not many people have made it 1:28:00 their whole identity bitcoin but I have most of my friends and family do not don't know anything 1:28:06 about bitcoin they're very funny I was just talking to my cousin the other day he had no 1:28:12 idea the difference he said no idea that bitcoin cash was different from bitcoin even after sort of 1:28:18 conversing with me for all these years I thought that's the status of a normal a normal person who 1:28:24 is in my family you know who is like a you know an educated white collar professional smart person 1:28:33 they don't know they don't even really know so I you know I don't even really even like uh 1:28:37 it's not I think that's part of the reason why I had the idea of BIP300 anyway and why I carried 1:28:42 it this far though is because I really am so independent and I really do need the BIP300 part 1:28:47 to work for this because I actually want the sidechains to work it isn't like a weird career 1:28:53 stepping stone I don't know if any of that don't miners don't even understand bitcoin they're not 1:28:59 they're not coders they're not developers they're not mathematicians and they'll tell 1:29:02 you they're not they're just these um they're just kind of like brainwashy masters so to speak 1:29:11 yeah I think a few people do it's and you know and one surprising thing is even like well you 1:29:15 know often some time from time to time even big supporters it's clear to me that they don't 1:29:21 they don't totally understand it either I mean big code we love big code and he was just like 1:29:28 saying he's run the software which is makes him an elite expert but he's asking about like you 1:29:33 know does every site can you have one piece of software run multiple nodes or something that I 1:29:38 would think someone who had run the software would would know and sometimes even me and CryptEx 1:29:44 we have disagreements we have differences of uh we have we had a different idea of what it 1:29:51 was what it looks like or what it does and those are sometimes pretty funny the idea that we have 1:29:56 been working on it and testing it for a while and that I think most recently happened in like uh 1:30:03 2020 I think it was after COVID I think but it was like that was just funny to me that 1:30:11 after all this time you would still so yeah people don't have a full understanding of things that 1:30:16 they comment on they just look around they see something they think this is mostly going well 1:30:23 or they think this is a problem and then they start talking about that and I think that's 1:30:28 perfectly fine but yeah like so this is this is exactly the case with C15 where he's just saying 1:30:34 like he just doesn't and it's like they hang out with it's a it's very social as well so like uh 1:30:41 there used to be this group Nakamoto Institute that had these uh really really high quality 1:30:46 essays very early on 2012 2013 2014 which I highly recommend people read but of course there 1:30:54 was some drama with that whereas the Daniel Krajewicz is a brilliant guy absolutely brilliant 1:30:59 guy and he was sort of the leader maybe and um I maybe but then a safety kind of replaced him 1:31:09 he sort of left he was more into large blockism believe it or not and a safety and just kind of 1:31:16 moved in and uh I can I can uh just from hearing about all of it from different people from far 1:31:25 away I could take out a pipe and do armchair psychology about who has a daddy issues or 1:31:30 whatever is going on with that but it's just like it's a group of people and uh they have you know 1:31:37 they have beliefs about like there's like the Austin community is more uh the Austin community 1:31:44 where the Nakamoto Institute was created is from UT Austin when they were all undergraduates 1:31:50 Austin community has more of a focus on like property rights Austrian econ and then there's 1:31:56 like New York which is like more finance and like as in San Francisco is more like cryptography 1:32:04 you know whatever ring signatures Blockstream etc until that fell apart a lot of the SF stuff 1:32:12 moved to New York I think or to Austin just because of but there was also a big Miami group 1:32:19 I was sort of more identified with the Miami group which was like Bitcoin uncensored 1:32:23 who's actually using Bitcoin the Bitcoin users at the time were like dark net market people or 1:32:30 people paying for on a back page they would pay for like you know prostitution ads so it was like 1:32:37 this very seedy thing it was this very like uh it's like it's very subversive it's very like 1:32:44 a mere talkie was more like that type of thing like dark you know and so it's kind of like it's 1:32:50 all very different people have their own little different communities and so there's like a little 1:32:55 wedge issues and and it's a lot about impressing your friends and such and such so I think you I 1:33:02 mean you know none of that had anything to do with with BIP300 I think I mean he's even his comment 1:33:08 about the hating the motivation section is that's what that was what Pierre Richard said when he 1:33:16 joined this space like three weeks ago or whatever so I bet even that is copy and pasted so when I 1:33:23 think about safety and amuse I really just do think of like a giant clipboard and everything 1:33:28 is just taken from someone else because it's also more defensible that way you just take something 1:33:33 that someone else has then you know they agree with you so so that's why I kind of just roll my 1:33:39 eyes at him but again I don't really you know I don't even really like you know it's like that 1:33:45 the meme where I don't really think about him that often although I have having watched that show 1:33:53 when that he is lying about uh Don Draper is lying about that he is thinking about that guy the whole 1:33:59 time so that meme is often misused anyway that's a bunch of I have satin here with me 1:34:06 oh great he's right here yeah he's just wait one second oh okay that's a funny joke but uh whatever 1:34:17 you know that reminds me though which is the thing is that's actually not great though to do because 1:34:21 it's um that was a great bait and switch but that reminds me of a time and this is all related 1:34:28 to Drivechain in a way because scaling three in Milan uh Roger Ver had come and he had given out 1:34:37 bitcoin.com stickers but the polarization was already so great and the mistrust that even 1:34:44 though Roger Ver was there and he was like giving out free stuff so people threw them in like the 1:34:50 toilet and they were very mean about it all and of course uh people disagree and people 1:34:59 do uh but I did think that was kind of like I remember thinking like okay Roger is a large 1:35:08 blocker but here he is he's here at scaling bitcoin three and you know he he could just he's 1:35:14 got all this money he could like just do something else throw parties or whatever and uh 1:35:21 but you know he's like here and he's like giving people free stuff and they're just kind of like 1:35:27 kind of not really very it just kind of was like uh the point when the polarization 1:35:35 was reaching a level where it was kind of like becoming emotional you know and that was when I 1:35:41 really started to get kind of worried for the first time and this was also because I think this 1:35:46 was all related to the fact that ethereum that year had gone from being like nothing I don't I 1:35:52 don't uh remember the exact numbers but it went from something like being like less than one percent 1:35:57 of bitcoin's market cap and it it like erupted onto the scene with like consensus 2016 I think it 1:36:04 was and it uh and it became it became very big like much more than I think it may have even 1:36:11 gotten to whatever like 15 or something and so I think that you could feel the the emotions 1:36:19 and the you know like the desperation almost or the frustration like many people these are the 1:36:26 same people who critiqued ethereum for so long and said it was garbage and it was garbage for so long 1:36:32 less than one percent and now it had just gone up like a thousand x or something so anyone who 1:36:38 had invested you know if you had put twenty dollars in you'd have twenty thousand dollars 1:36:46 so let alone if you had made a serious investment of you know five thousand dollars you have five 1:36:51 million dollars so so uh so I think the emotions are always a bad sign but anyways bitcode 1:37:00 it's gonna stand up 1:37:05 yeah I wanted to to add something you know Paul like like you're a person that you kind of 1:37:13 realize the problem and you immediately try to find the solution you know like 1:37:19 and and that's kind of like also through that you kind of uh giving giving to the public education 1:37:27 you know I'm relating to what you were talking about uh that guy and his book but those people 1:37:34 like write a book to make profits and it's empty there's no education there's no kind of like you 1:37:39 know uh even even they they don't mention I think even the white paper of of of bitcoin and satoshi's 1:37:47 paper like and so like 1:37:50 and so like it's it's kind of like you know people people I think need to need to start realizing uh and uh differentiate like uh make difference between between things that are more educational like and and they can learn from you much more than all the bitcoin books that are out today and I'm sure in that you know and there is many other 1:38:17 people like uh Andreas and you know from the from the bitcoin talk you know and and kind of like 1:38:26 I think those books and those people are trying to create some some kind of a fake narrative of 1:38:32 uh bitcoin is this and nothing else yeah so well I'm glad you bring that up because I think you're 1:38:39 right about that and I think it's it's weird because it actually ends up being the case that 1:38:46 anyone who really does want to help improve bitcoin actually ends up with those people as 1:38:53 enemies which is not uh good for bitcoin or for bitcoin users and um investors and so I think 1:39:01 you're right though that like the book that was part of why I kind of was disappointed by the book 1:39:06 because the book it's clear that safety wanted to write the book you know like kind of not even 1:39:12 for profit but just for his own ego which is sort of worse because even profit he would be 1:39:19 at least accountable to book sales but he wrote he wrote the book so that he could make the joke 1:39:25 about John Maynard Keynes being like a uh like a what do you say libertine hedonist or whatever 1:39:34 and uh he that was the point of writing the book and that was the point to complain about Miley Cyrus 1:39:39 that was the whole point of writing the book see what I mean like it had nothing to do with actually 1:39:46 teaching people about bitcoin yeah and that was why I was like well whatever I'm just very sensitive 1:39:52 to that kind of thing and I'm like this guy is just whatever you know he's an unreliable ally 1:39:57 of bitcoin and uh yeah I think you're completely into and with to say nothing of these podcasts 1:40:04 and stuff which everyone is doing for the monetization can you imagine who would do a 1:40:08 podcast that they did not monetize that would be like bitcoin uncensored everyone can find it I 1:40:13 think I we get the archive link uh but like you know like they all do it just for the for the 1:40:19 cash so it's not yeah they're not actually producing information and shipping it to you 1:40:25 they are taking the lay of the land figuring out what do people want to hear and giving them that 1:40:33 and then they are reaching into your your wallet and taking out your money in a way which is they're 1:40:39 taking your attention their time and they're wasting your time and attention by telling you 1:40:43 things that you would more easily learn in some other way and they take your time and attention 1:40:49 they get the advertising money goes goes to them so but I'm going to get the bitcoin uncensored link 1:40:54 and we'll we'll post yeah that's a real that's a real education and I'm going to go get it right 1:41:00 now we'll get into where it is uh there is another some some channels like uh I think Andreas is uh 1:41:08 very very good uh educator um and uh his talk is very kind of uh you know talking about notes how 1:41:18 to run why to run you know uh many many many many things and uh I found another another channel that 1:41:26 that go deep in the in the kind of uh showing people about bitcoin and what is possible to do 1:41:34 you know like uh with very little coding or or stuff like that about notes and 1:41:40 but they don't remember the the channel the name 1:41:57 I think if if many more people I I think that if if more people are educated about the bitcoin 1:42:06 blockchain I think more people will likely see Drivechain as a something positive I don't know 1:42:15 that's my opinion yeah there's a a little bit of a a there's like a I think they move there's like a 1:42:25 big nexus of things where it's like if you care about decentralization you have to care about 1:42:29 people running a node but in order for that they have to care about they have to know how to find 1:42:34 a node like what is a node like you know what I mean is bitcoin cash a node of bitcoin btc 1:42:39 no so but how do people know all that so it's kind of like a big project people have to be lifted 1:42:44 completely from one thing to the next uh and they need they need to like completely leave the world 1:42:53 of like they need to kind of go you need it's like if you can't learn how to like drive a car 1:43:00 without you have to learn about how to refuel the car you have to learn about turn signals you have 1:43:04 to learn about um getting the oil changed so so you kind of and if you can't then you're just 1:43:13 trapped and you have to use whatever uber for everything or whatever so yeah you need to you 1:43:18 need to get experience running the nodes or you know try different type of uh hardware for nodes 1:43:26 like a different operating system so like yeah I understand what what you mean it's 1:43:33 anyway I posted the I have a few different but I think this is a good one I posted the 1:43:38 good bitcoin uncensored link so if you want to if you want a podcast that 1:43:45 was never monetized and it's the best bitcoin podcast ever it's it's since ended unfortunately 1:43:53 um but uh that's an example of and they did everything they could to not monetize it and 1:43:57 destroy their own right and that's what made it great and that's why all the ogs love this podcast 1:44:03 the most of all and um but you know like the people doing this today they are you know getting 1:44:11 money for themselves which is their you know there's nothing wrong with that but 1:44:19 uh it's definitely div it's divides their loyalty um I think that but I mean people 1:44:30 would say the same thing about uh about me they say oh I have something to gain 1:44:36 from BIP300 which is of course technically true but not really 1:44:43 it's not really that relevant in the big picture what I mostly get out of it is the same thing 1:44:47 that you would get out of it is the ability to end all this madness of on one hand we have alt 1:44:54 coins and other hand we have the bitcoin core development process but instead we could have 1:44:58 but instead we could have something that's much better 1:45:03 yeah but in your case it's fair you know in uh in their cases uh you know they they don't 1:45:10 give any education and they get everything for them and that's kind of like uh yeah difference 1:45:17 I certainly tried every time I gave any bitcoin talk or wrote a post I tried to only write about 1:45:23 something that most people disagreed with and I tried to always say something very new about it 1:45:29 whether or not I succeeded in that is up to the reader of course but uh yeah well thanks for that 1:45:37 point of view so I wonder if we have anyone else who wants to come up 1:45:41 and say anything yes I'm sorry I put the link it was called bitcoin uncensored and there's the 1:45:47 link is now I think in the nest is uh it was called BU um BU was bitcoin uncensored and it's uh 1:45:59 resistance.money slash BU as one link I have some more and I have there's a torrent and a 1:46:05 dropbox folder and I don't know which is the most complete but that was the link that I 1:46:11 I googled it to make sure that's what it was when I posted it so and it's uh it's old it ran from 1:46:19 the end of 2015 to the March 2017. Then it split into various things uh long story 1:46:28 DeRose Chris DeRose did something DeRose uncensored and then and Johnseth did 1:46:34 Johnseth's world it's kind of weird that they split off and then did things named after themselves 1:46:40 but that was of course the convention ever since Joe Rogan and whatever and now it's what bitcoin 1:46:44 did with Peter McCormick it's always with Peter McCormick and anyway uh they did all that and um 1:46:53 and then they kind of both uh faded out and then uh Johnseth has kind of faded in 1:46:58 via the clubhouse direction and uh Chris is like traveling the world and uh doing other things 1:47:11 cool may I may ask another question real quick and then I could step off 1:47:17 yeah of course so are you can you maybe comment uh I know the q word upsets a lot of people but 1:47:23 you've been really um liberal in your thoughts on it so um can you maybe comment on the 1:47:32 coalition for quantum resistance by IBM that's IBM is established with I forget the university but 1:47:39 um can you can you comment on that and and their efforts I probably really can't because I mean I 1:47:46 can give you a made-up comment but it's like normally when we do these spaces it's very fun 1:47:50 for me in a way because people ask questions about things that I've been thinking on working on 1:47:58 doing like traveling and talking to people about non-stop for years and years and years and so I 1:48:05 have like a really well-formed opinion and I kind of like know everyone else's opinion as well so I 1:48:11 know like why mine is different than other people's or but with something like that I don't really I 1:48:16 don't think I have enough expertise really to give like a super cool opinion I can only tell you 1:48:21 about how people's opinions in the bitcoin community changed like over you know surrounding 1:48:29 quantum and it's just I don't think I say I have anything really really new to say 1:48:34 it's just the same thing as always which is that it will quantum is going faster than a lot of 1:48:39 people thought but there are quantum resistant algorithms but they're not great uh probably if 1:48:45 we had the quantum break you'd hear about it probably first you know it would have maybe 1:48:53 it would be in academia or maybe it would be in the military and there'd probably be a commercial 1:48:57 break like they would hack the pack vanguard or something I don't know what they would hack but 1:49:04 they may it might be used against bitcoin first it's possible it's kind of unlikely though because 1:49:13 uh just the I think I personally think that if this type of thing happened 1:49:22 uh they would have to be very very strategic about it have to be like in that game the 1:49:26 imitation game where they break it and then they they can't reveal that they've broken it you know 1:49:30 because otherwise bitcoin will just hard fork immediately or it would you know to so you have 1:49:38 to be very clever about who you're going to steal from a little bit at a time like when they they 1:49:43 trick the germans into thinking that they have not broken the enigma in that movie the enigma uh 1:49:51 uh the nazi world war ii encryption so I think um they probably would I don't really have anything 1:49:58 super new to say but there is a way to change it but it would it's very inefficient in terms of 1:50:04 byte size of the signatures uh but maybe I'm sure as as the problem looms closer people will get 1:50:14 better and better at making solutions to that as was the case with when they had a ring signatures 1:50:20 and then bulletproofs and stuff like that so so people get very good at shrinking the 1:50:28 the uh the size of this type of thing that'd be more efficient quantum resistant algorithm 1:50:34 and then all of us will be able to benefit from living in a world that has quantum computing 1:50:41 so that will at least offset however bad we might feel about having to switch from 1:50:50 you know ecdsa or whatever to to a quantum resistant algorithm so I don't really have 1:50:56 anything new to say yeah that's the normal thing people say yeah it's pretty normal I think um you 1:51:05 know there's there are very few that are in the discipline and actually working on these computers 1:51:11 and actually changing quantum states to solve problems but I was talking with some quantum 1:51:16 scientists and last night actually and and some of these folks came in that are trying to build 1:51:21 something called q-chain which is not built by quantum scientists and and essentially they're 1:51:26 just copy and pasting stuff that nist is posting and what nist is posting is not going to make 1:51:31 your classical computers quantum resistant um so we were talking about like you know 1:51:37 bitcoin will hard fork in a in a quantum world onto quantum computers um but the the very act 1:51:45 of doing that hard fork um will completely erase all of the bitcoin no I don't think in my the hard 1:51:55 fork is very dangerous but I think when it was mostly in terms of stealing so yeah 21 million 1:52:01 can be can be mined immediately essentially and then it's just going to allow for whoever is in 1:52:07 control of the quantum computer well maybe I mean you should check that I don't you may be right you 1:52:12 sound like you might know more than I but I think the hash functions uh it's the I think 1:52:19 it's the asymmetric it's like the public private keys that is what is going to fall to quantum 1:52:27 resistance to to quantum computers first and we don't hard fork to quantum computers we would 1:52:34 hard fork to add a new quantum resistant like signature algorithm sorry well I was just trying 1:52:47 to say that this has shot 256 is what is the hashing that's the proof of work so I don't 1:52:54 think that would break even with quantum world yeah well I think you would not mind you would 1:53:01 not be able to mine everything uh at once as you said but maybe not I don't know who knows well 1:53:07 yeah is it supposed to like switch to to quantum miners and stuff like that but that's what I'm 1:53:14 saying you can't really be comprised of multiple miners with quantum computers it would take it 1:53:19 would take theoretically just a few qubits right now the notion that it's going to take 300 million 1:53:25 qubits to factor out 256 bit encryption is nonsense it'll be the hash function is not 1:53:33 encryption though asymmetric you know to break the signatures to break to break any any area 1:53:43 of cryptography on bitcoin is the signature but I know it I think not the hash this is my 1:53:47 understanding it may be incorrect but my understanding is the hash is totally unaffected by 1:53:53 the quantum computing but maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong about that I was thinking I was thinking 1:53:59 the same like you Paul you're saying the um uh the keys will be will be affected for us 1:54:07 and in fact it only takes 256 qubits I don't again I don't know this is not my area of expertise but 1:54:13 I think you just have to count up to the space I don't know exactly how it works because we have 1:54:19 see one thing there's many details so one curious thing is that for completely historical reasons 1:54:27 there was the is paid to pubkey hash and as a result none of the public keys for early bitcoin 1:54:35 transactions are actually in the blockchain they're already hashed they're hashed shot 256 1:54:41 hash and then ripe md it's only a 20 byte blob actually in the blockchain that has already been 1:54:48 hashed twice so even with the quantum break none of those would be broken either because no one 1:54:55 knows what the public key is the public key is not revealed until the transaction is spent at 1:55:00 one point you reveal the public key and the signature but but uh but for ironically for 1:55:08 SegWit and taproot which is not hashed because it's kind of a wasted 20 bytes 1:55:14 so they just measure data in bytes um uh terabytes or that's the measurement that's how classical 1:55:21 information is measured uh measured quantum information changes uh quantum states manipulating 1:55:27 quantum states to solve problems and so that's why they're able to factor out through these 1:55:31 hashes so quickly this was the factor hashes are not uh factoring numbers whereas the through the 1:55:39 through the cryptography actually yeah yeah so that's why if they if you have a public key 1:55:44 you can probably get the private key with a quantum computer as long as it's big enough 1:55:50 which i think will probably happen eventually and that would be a neat that would be a neat trick 1:55:55 because that but it won't be but i don't know um you know anything could happen but i think 1:56:01 the hashes are different because the hashes because look think about it like this 1:56:06 every encryption thing is like you pick a random number and then you have a way of deriving you 1:56:13 pick a random number between zero and two to the 256 which is a huge number and then you 1:56:20 that's the private key and then you from that you derive the public key 1:56:25 and you can't go the other way but the the private key is the one that is 1:56:29 the one that is uh the the public key is usually has more 1:56:38 well more the same amount of space than the private key is the this i don't know if this is 1:56:44 a good way of explaining it but what i'm getting at is that you could you could hash like a 10 1:56:47 terabyte movie or like a hard drive or like an 8 gigabyte movie or like a giant hard drive you 1:56:53 can hash those and they always shrink down to the whatever the size of the hash is so it's 1:57:00 32 byte hash you can you can hash like a five sentences or you can hash an mp3 file or you 1:57:06 can hash a giant movie they all become they all get shrunk down and um bitcoin mining is 1:57:15 hashing twice in a row then 80 block header and so i'm not sure how it works but maybe someone 1:57:23 will explain how it's possible to make and i don't know but i don't think so because what i'm saying 1:57:30 is you have to be able to say uh you have to be able to say this is the hash result but then this 1:57:39 and then from that figure out oh it came from this it came from this 440 gigabyte dvd iso image 1:57:48 or something uh so i that's why i think it's probably just too different but i don't actually 1:57:53 know but but why don't you look into it and then come back next week i think the hash rate should 1:58:00 all safe yeah but i'm just saying to a 256 bit number is is is enormous to a classical computer 1:58:09 but anyway it's a you know to to when you're changing quantum states it's not it's it's not 1:58:16 such a large feat and so i think it's interesting that ibm is now leading this coalition four years 1:58:22 after it was alleged that their quantum team had um successfully deployed a 5150 attack on 1:58:29 a simulated bitcoin network well yeah that that would be interesting uh you're right maybe they 1:58:38 are doing it very slowly because because that information was out yeah it would be hysteria 1:58:44 everywhere so maybe they are it would be to like try to steal find one victim who can't complain 1:58:50 and not on the list of satoshi's coins and uh not on like a whale list and uh didn't just take 1:58:57 all their coins and then just wait for them and they'll just think oh i got hacked or whatever 1:59:01 and we have mobius mobius is back okay hopefully you guys can hear me yes we can hear you now okay 1:59:10 thank you paul for for this for the space um i um full disclosure i'm a newbie on this 1:59:18 but if i understand correctly the BIP300 you're trying to create sidechains yes 1:59:26 yes and the issue is i think you mentioned earlier in the conversation is is the size 1:59:33 byte you would like to change the the size byte in bitcoin mining procedure 1:59:39 dude oh not really no so how size bites well i think is one megabyte for the 1:59:50 block size limit well you know there's one thing that was the original i was originally interested 1:59:55 in it because of prediction markets but i became more i was researching sidechains during the 2:00:00 block size war and i think that is the first example where you have two people who really 2:00:06 really really want different things and so they would be a very good first customer but that's 2:00:12 not the only reason even if it could not do that we would still want so that we could do 2:00:16 extensibility and things like Zcash privacy so i think so so there is a there is a change in the 2:00:23 core um coding of bitcoin to to allow for Drivechains there's a backwards compatible soft fork 2:00:33 so everything that is currently done by a node it will still do but it will do one new thing also 2:00:43 gotcha and how how you do the um well i'm thinking more of the financial side an exchange rate 2:00:51 between between the sidechain whatever that might be and bitcoin directly 2:00:56 so it's a one-to-one rate and that's on the sidechain side so from the bitcoin side it doesn't 2:01:06 it only knows how to add and subtract coins you know so it's just saying take five coins from 2:01:11 here put them here so would you and so it puts the coins in the UTXO and then it's the side 2:01:17 chain that says okay wait seven coins were sent to this seven coins were deposited into this 2:01:21 script so i need to credit seven coins on the sidechain and then when people withdraw the 2:01:25 coins they say okay i need to destroy five coins here on the sidechain and then unlock five coins 2:01:32 on l1 gotcha um is it fair to think as a as a staking like a certain amount of bitcoin goes 2:01:42 to the sidechain and stays there as a collateral type of thing well i wouldn't that last part is 2:01:50 not quite it so i think that that's very close but uh it's really it's really just deposits and 2:01:55 withdrawals like depositing into an atm and then taking money out or something like that depositing 2:02:01 going to a casino and giving them cash and then taking the chips back and redeeming it for cash 2:02:07 it's a little more like that so you wouldn't really say that you've staked if you go to a 2:02:11 casino and you give them two thousand dollars and they give you chips you wouldn't really say well 2:02:16 i staked my you just kind of you haven't really exchanged them then you exchange them so the the 2:02:23 issue that i have been trying to conceptualize in my head is okay if it's an exchange for one-to-one 2:02:29 and let's say the Drivechain whatever uh study case that might be creates more uh wealth within 2:02:37 that side train uh side train uh drive train uh how how can you come back at this point how would 2:02:44 you be able to to account for the extra the tokens i guess that happen in the 2:02:51 tokens i guess that happen in the on the sidechains on the l2 well you're saying something like 2:02:56 you're saying something like the sidechain uh someone deposits five bitcoin and then the 2:03:02 sidechain says like there's there's eight bitcoin there or something that's what you're saying 2:03:07 something like that well is those uh l2s will be um i don't know some sort of a uh reward system if 2:03:16 you do this or if you do that there's more rewards that is a is distributed therefore you end up with 2:03:22 an imbalance of what i would call tokens and bitcoin that was initially brought into the 2:03:31 to this new l2 well yeah that's not um that's not uh that would not be really viable but uh 2:03:40 let's just imagine that it like you program the sidechain badly and every time you every third 2:03:47 time you send someone money it duplicates the coins or something someone sends five coins over 2:03:52 there and they send two coins to person a two to b then this send them again two to person c and 2:03:58 they duplicate and now there's seven coins over there now there's still an l1 there's still only 2:04:04 five coins in the viv 300 script so of course on l1 you can never counterfeit any coins so what 2:04:13 happens is the sidechain has a uh it still only owns the sidechain only owns a five coins so to 2:04:21 speak so and uh it cannot function as an inflation type of token has to be as a divisible type of 2:04:29 token is that correct yeah and what will happen is uh probably is everyone will try it'll be 2:04:35 exactly as if the casino um people deposit uh well i don't know if it's a good analogy at all 2:04:44 but it'll be like a bank run type of a thing but i think you know like we have to deposit the first 2:04:49 five people to deposit to withdraw from the sidechain will get one to one coins and the 2:04:56 last two people will get nothing so that would probably kill the sidechain instantaneously 2:05:00 unless the sidechain could be programmed to somehow take that into account and uh so that 2:05:07 but if you're doing that you would just do a bunch of other weird stuff so i don't know why i don't 2:05:11 know what that would be oh i see so you have to program it's a it would have to be something you 2:05:17 program in advance you'd say something like every minute your coins are here there's a percentage 2:05:23 of them rots away and it goes to something else so let me let me ask a different question then 2:05:29 so let's say you have multiple sidechains and if they want to exchange well i guess at this 2:05:37 point is one-to-one like you're saying okay okay thank you for your time and sorry for 2:05:43 being a little newbie on this uh it's fascinating fascinating stuff great thank you for your interest 2:05:58 well that's pretty good so far we've done two hours 2:06:03 which is not bad we have a pretty good group here i see a lot of people have stayed 2:06:10 since the since it first opened so 2:06:15 that's great the negative one iq guy is still here so that's good we have a wide representation 2:06:24 um yep so feel free to come up 2:06:31 ask your question or comment 2:06:37 because you know what will happen if no one comes up then we will end the space 2:06:42 so we don't want to do that or the space to go for like 50 hours 2:06:54 maybe we should do something like you know how like at a baseball game they're like if there's 2:06:58 too much dead time they like do funny little things and do little races and things should 2:07:03 like little games we play when when stuff happens when there's dead time i have a question paul 2:07:11 oh great uh so i've noticed um over the years there's there's been a lot of 2:07:19 um over the years there's there's been a lot of like sidechain alternatives or proposals like 2:07:28 there's um space chain and surf chain now recently spider chain proposed by botanist loves so uh i 2:07:38 wonder what's your opinion on these alternatives and do you think they will catch on eventually 2:07:43 or do you think is it just yeah i don't think it's good that's good great question and i think 2:07:50 we should i really do believe in pluralism so i think that we should try everything 2:07:57 the spider chain idea though it is an example of how pluralism is failing though because 2:08:03 the whole thing that people they hold up this thing is complicated and kind of weird it has 2:08:07 some clever ideas it has uh there's this like um first in first out idea which is kind of 2:08:14 interesting and but but what people hold up about it is they say this doesn't need a soft fork and 2:08:20 so what they're really saying is we're committed to now not only are we not going to ever do 2:08:25 anything that's a hard fork which i fully understand but we're not going to do anything 2:08:31 that's a soft fork or even something that is a very soft fork like something that is like an 2:08:36 almost ignorable soft fork so it just shows you how far people are pushed to we're being pushed 2:08:44 to not do something so i see it as honestly a symptom of the disease that it's even even comes 2:08:51 up at all we really should be more pluralist and we should do more things but i some specific 2:08:57 critiques of the idea are that it it does have so like to me it's all very clear and plain which is 2:09:06 that the like the drive charity is very clear and plain because the miners are the ones who 2:09:12 ultimately can veto any message for making it into the blockchain so every transaction has to be 2:09:18 included since the miners is power and responsibility ownership and control they all have 2:09:26 to go together so the miners are the ones who collect the fee they're the ones who decide 2:09:32 of which transactions made it in in time so the miners get all the money since the miners are 2:09:37 already getting the money the new transaction fees it stands to reason that they and since 2:09:42 they get paid in bitcoin and since they have 100 block maturity period and all that and since they 2:09:47 are the least liquid investors in bitcoin through the mining stuff they are the ones who are they 2:09:57 and since they're collecting all the transaction fees they might as well do these deposit withdrawal 2:10:01 things anyways because even if you have zk-SNARK or whatever so so to me i have this this very kind 2:10:06 of like um crisp vision of what to do and other people do this weird multi-sig thing where they 2:10:14 say okay the way spider chains works is you stake some coins and you get some control over the pot 2:10:23 so like the if you have the uh i think if you have the the earliest 75 percent 2:10:32 then you can rug the newest 25 percent and so yeah so of course they can steal from you so 2:10:39 this is the thing this but this is what people don't get about l2s is someone can always steal 2:10:44 because i get that critique myself i get the miners can steal critique but i'm just trying 2:10:48 to tell you why i just i don't buy the miners can steal critique because the miners can always steal 2:10:53 and the miners are the ones making all the money so i've never cared but in this instead of miner 2:10:59 stealing you have a situation where miners can steal and 75 of the oldest coins can steal and 2:11:06 it's just kind of very complicated and convoluted thing that involves the user the user has to choose 2:11:12 all these federations the user has to choose like which federation am i depositing to 2:11:18 and i don't think people really like to do that i think that's that's kind of set up is 2:11:23 a lot of work and it would lead to you know like at best it will lead to like commercials for 2:11:30 people or like politician type things or like reputations and that's also why i don't think 2:11:35 federment will will do great but i think we should try all these things we should try all these things 2:11:40 but i don't think it's i think the miners can always screw up since the miners control l1 2:11:47 and they control which messages are filtered i have never really cared about the whole miners 2:11:52 can steal thing because the miners can always steal and so i don't even really care i sacrifice 2:11:57 something that i think is already dead and um uh so the idea is that when people get away from that 2:12:05 they they just let make it so someone else can steal uh and it's usually someone else can steal 2:12:11 and also the miners can also steal and you never know if the miners are also playing wearing two 2:12:15 hats and there are these other people so i don't really you know i don't really get it and the fact 2:12:21 that it doesn't need a soft fork i think it's just more of it is a bad thing it's just saying 2:12:27 it's just encouraging people to make these convoluted federation things when instead 2:12:34 we could make like you know it's because of attitude like that that we can't have 2:12:38 for example u3xo but like a UTXO commitment soft forked into bitcoin because we and what we should 2:12:48 do is just rip off this band-aid about this soft fork nonsense it's all just i disagree with it so 2:12:55 so that's just my opinion about it i don't know if that helps hopefully it does um all right yeah 2:13:02 since you touched on soft forks do you think there will come a point uh when it will be impossible to 2:13:10 activate any soft forks anymore and also um i don't think like from what you said 2:13:17 it's like you think you can always soft fork like again and again and again but wouldn't the chain 2:13:24 uh become like over encumbered in rules eventually 2:13:27 okay well you can soft fork to add a rule that is less encumbering so for example you can soft fork 2:13:35 add OP_DRIVECHAIN but then you make a new rule that says instead of enforcing OP_DRIVECHAIN 2:13:42 with op not five you just say op not five is banned banned permanently so now you have tightened the 2:13:49 rules twice but the effect is actually very very easy to enforce yeah but but then you lose uh 2:13:59 an opcode don't you so you actually were run out of it's well you know really because you can say 2:14:04 op not nine is like check the next two bytes and that is the real number now and then when you get 2:14:14 to 99 you can say check the net oh if you if you use op 99 check the next three bytes and that is 2:14:20 the real so you actually have an unlimited number really all right i get it do you think eventually 2:14:26 it will be impossible to do any more soft forks i go back and forth on that i think probably the 2:14:33 answer is no because i think where there's a will there's a way and the soft fork is just too easy 2:14:38 to actually do it's if either users or miners or whatever if anyone wants to do it the the modern 2:14:44 idea of the soft fork as being this horrible thing is like just a weird fiction in my view i think it 2:14:51 only exists because of miners guilt about participating in SegWit2x which was a hard 2:14:58 fork anyway it had nothing to do with soft fork so it's completely unrelated guilt and i think 2:15:04 that's the real reason behind it all and i think so that's just irrational eventually it will be 2:15:10 replaced by a more rational idea which is does this make the miners more money is it good for 2:15:18 bitcoin users do the pros outweigh the cons and it's only because of SegWit2x i think if we lived 2:15:27 in a parallel universe where the SegWit drama never happened this there would also not be soft 2:15:31 fork drama i think the also the soft fork we lost we had a big casualty in terms of languages 2:15:40 uh uh in terms of language because the word soft fork changed the definition 2:15:48 uh and it became defined it changed definition and the two definitions uh conflict with each other 2:15:54 which has led to enormous chaos and unfortunately it's very difficult to undo but it would be nice 2:16:03 if we could undo it uh the new the real definition of soft fork should be something that does not 2:16:09 interfere with anything that a node is currently doing and that that's kind of the older definition 2:16:17 and when peter todd had a very clever thing about the evil fork which was very clever 2:16:25 but i don't think but i think unwittingly unintentionally he was a part of this 2:16:31 changing the definition of soft fork and i don't think he intended to do that at all i think it was 2:16:34 actually happening for some reason it was just happening like subconsciously it had switched 2:16:40 because it was all based on the block size limit so the idea of shrinking the block size being a 2:16:44 soft fork but increasing it being a hard fork that was just too easy for people to understand 2:16:49 and as a result the loosening of the rules versus tightening of the rules definition took over 2:16:57 but it's people didn't realize how different it was from the the opt-in versus like backwards 2:17:04 compatible versus mandatory upgrade so that was different so i think unfortunately the language 2:17:11 got all screwed up and as a result people's thoughts got all screwed up which you can't 2:17:17 you can hardly blame anyone because the language is really really important we're very as uh 2:17:25 as many commentators have pointed out the language is a very important thing 2:17:31 um so uh i'm not sure but what i really think is that probably if the soft fork makes the right case 2:17:39 because what i really think will happen is eventually someone will crack interoperability 2:17:43 which i think BIP300 will be the thing but if it's not it will be something else 2:17:47 and when that happens the the cult people will all be uh like kind of killed off anyway like 2:17:55 they won't literally be killed off but so what i'm getting at is this you have something like BIP300 2:18:00 now bitcoiners have their evm chain they have their large blockchain they have their Zcash 2:18:05 privacy chain people can spin up a new bitcoin Drivechain whenever they want 2:18:11 well now and there's no there's not as much of a need for people to go around for jacomo zuko 2:18:18 to go around and say everything that's not bitcoin is a scam because he's only calling bitcoiners 2:18:23 like participants in a scam and they they're consenting adults and they choose to use a 2:18:28 certain way so so it just won't mean anything and the whole point of it all is to stop bitcoin 2:18:34 from changing into ethereum but that's already what BIP300 does it already stops that from 2:18:39 happening by moving all ethereum like things to their own piece of software so i think once 2:18:45 someone does that the the drama will all fall by like 99.99 percent so when the drama falls it 2:18:54 will be much easier for productive people to get things done and they'll just a soft fork update 2:18:58 will be we'll go back to being being normal but i'm not sure about that it's possible that it will 2:19:04 not anyway we had a the nate and alex they had their hands up for a while so why don't we do the 2:19:09 nate hello um hey paul uh thanks for bringing me up um uh maybe you already answered this i just i 2:19:17 was late to the space um and also i'm i'm kind of just like parroting a question i keep hearing in 2:19:23 other places i just haven't heard an answer to it yet but if so if i also just don't know a lot 2:19:27 about Drivechain so maybe i'm asking a relative question but if if if if bitcoin needs drive 2:19:34 chains why not implement them on like litecoin and or liquid and then if that brings more users 2:19:39 to that then maybe bitcoin needs them but rather than why not do that first as opposed to pushing 2:19:45 to put Drivechains on bitcoin now yeah i'm not i get we get that question a lot and i i think i 2:19:51 always get the same answer which is that i'm not opposed to that but i don't really want to help 2:19:57 litecoin or and doing it on liquid is kind of a contradiction because the it is the um 2:20:04 it liquid is defederated so what are you going to do like have the federation could already do 2:20:11 its own the federation kind of competes with the 300 but i think doing it on litecoin it could be a 2:20:17 good idea i think that could be in the cards if anyone from litecoin would ever contact me and 2:20:24 say we want to do it will you help us i would say yes but i'm not really going to go out of the way 2:20:30 to do it over there that's not like a big priority for me instead we try to make we already have 2:20:37 testnet version if you if you go to drivechain.info slash releases we have a play money version 2:20:44 and um i don't think that it would see the thing is i don't really think yeah i'm not sure 2:20:50 what it would actually demonstrate other than the code doesn't have bugs so if you 2:20:59 um but yeah i think we have we are building tests so one thing that is interesting to point out is 2:21:08 if we build the sidechains themselves which is what we're doing now 2:21:11 the sidechains can be used on anything that activates BIP300 so if we build like the Zcash 2:21:18 sidechain anyone who activates with 300 can take advantage of it so in that way 2:21:26 uh the like that is where the focus should be and um so that's like what i spend my time on but i'm 2:21:39 not i'm just kind of like not really interested in you know litecoin is like you know a shit coin 2:21:47 but i think it's fine to or to even make a new coin uh it may even be better to do 2:21:55 a hard fork so that and they have chance that it does really well bitcoiners don't 2:22:00 lose out to litecoin but i think that it's also like the the goal is to help bitcoin succeed 2:22:10 and so we already have testnet software that is with play money and so i don't know what exactly 2:22:17 that but if anyway if people from litecoin want to do that then i will um sort of help them 2:22:28 yeah cool that's the i'm i'm far too ignorant of like the broader scope of this to 2:22:32 to to think much past that and it seems like a fair answer thanks that's all i got 2:22:36 uh cool thanks alex 2:22:44 hey paul uh thank you for bringing me up quick question it's been a while i haven't been in the 2:22:49 space but i was wondering how come we haven't seen so much smart contracts on bitcoin type 2:22:54 of approaches taking place given that i think that would help actually the space a lot i'm 2:22:59 curious to hear your take on that sure i actually think it's i think it's kind of a small thing it's 2:23:06 partially um historical where ethereum was created and it used this smart contract phrase 2:23:14 this marketing type thing and everyone in bitcoin hated it at the time hated ethereum back in 2014 2:23:20 2015 so it's become like a point of differentiation between bitcoin and ethereum where i would go out 2:23:28 of i would say that people in bitcoin go out of their way not to do it and in fact you get you 2:23:34 almost get shamed instead of praised you almost get shamed if you do it on bitcoin because it 2:23:40 looks like you are the type of person who would be misled into thinking that ethereum was was cool 2:23:45 or whatever so people really really don't don't like it and then people say stuff like well 2:23:53 a bitcoin already has smart contracts bitcoin has you know htlc's stuff like that 2:24:00 um i think that ethereum started off you know it's very unpopular in the bitcoin community 2:24:05 in 2014 and 2015 and sort of has always been that way and it so the most of the stuff that 2:24:14 ethereum was doing for years was was like objectively terrible and then only later 2:24:19 did it slowly start to evolve into becoming useful to some people and i think a lot of 2:24:25 people formed an opinion about ethereum long ago that they never really updated and so they 2:24:29 still just think that this is the same like one of the first things ethereum had was like a 2:24:34 transparent ponzi scheme which was very funny and it would like randomly it was like cryptographically 2:24:42 random and it would like pay out or something this was uh many years ago but i think a lot of people 2:24:47 still think of a lot of people in bitcoin still think of it's really a shame because it just goes 2:24:54 to show the effect of sour grapes where if someone just plants a flag in the ground and they say 2:25:01 we will be smart contracts we're ethereum then bitcoin will go from saying that's a stupid idea 2:25:08 and then they'll say no one ever wanted that and then say everyone you know there are many many 2:25:13 high-profile bitcoin people who say some something it's very hard to actually translate it into 2:25:19 a coherent thought but as best i can tell what these people are saying is something like 2:25:26 every single user of ethereum is being deceived or every single user of ethereum is 2:25:34 it's all illegitimate it's all a big show and they're just trying to pump their eath bags or 2:25:39 something and this whole thing about them having all these fees so it's just this weird cultural 2:25:46 rift that this word was claimed by this phrase smart contracts it's claimed by ethereum and then 2:25:54 people in bitcoin your uh your bitcoin career will suffer if you fraternize with the enemy 2:26:04 you know and it's very irrational but that's that's the reality is 2:26:09 that's certainly what i lived through i don't know maybe someone else has a very different experience 2:26:13 but i think let's see the other thing of course is most of the smart contract stuff 2:26:17 really was low quality and it really was sort of scammy so so then everyone you know a couple bad 2:26:26 apples uh spoil them one bad apple spoils the bunch or whatever so they just think this this 2:26:30 phrase is a dead phrase but yeah i think you know in the past there was rootstock rsk which was just 2:26:39 going to duplicate everything done in ethereum which which still does that is like what they do 2:26:45 you can go to their site and they they duplicate what ethereum does there's like a rootstock 2:26:50 version of whatever uniswap and all this stuff so so that used to be met with cheers and applause 2:26:58 back in the day but now it's kind of like it's much more that you have these people who say 2:27:06 we don't want that on bitcoin so it's uh it's very much a choice to some extent 2:27:15 people say get that out of here we don't want anyone it's like a weird uh is a cultural um 2:27:24 it's a cultural war someone called bill o'reilly 2:27:26 someone called bill o'reilly 2:27:33 right thank you for the the answer i was always wondering like i remember 2:27:40 i always anticipated that given we're rising the block size fees are going to go lower so 2:27:43 somebody's gonna start doing that never happened uh yeah no thank you for the answer 2:27:50 yeah no thank you for the answer and i hope we can kind of move past that given the 2:27:53 centralization that ethereum has at the moment i think we're uh people should look on more 2:27:58 decentralized kind of networks to build stuff i don't know just my take yeah i'm disappointed 2:28:06 that the main the main competitor to bitcoin is something that's disappointing 2:28:21 anyway we hit uh just in time oh alex i think you have some weird 2:28:29 okay good anyway i don't know if that people could hear that but i was saying that 2:28:34 i think it's competition is good so it would be better for bitcoin if we had more competitors 2:28:39 and uh our main competitors are like ethereum which i think is really just not that great as 2:28:46 a competitor and you know whatever what else what else is a competitor to bitcoin like 2:28:51 it's i i would lament the fact that we don't have a second best 2:28:56 anyway we have a justin 75 iq oh wait no we don't we had him but we lost him 2:29:03 76 is required no i'm just kidding anyway we had him but he seems to have glitched out or 2:29:12 maybe he'll be back now we have a pulse sorry about that pulse pulse ln 2:29:19 pulse ln oh wait we have justin again hello oh hey paul hey it was nice meeting you at tabcon 2:29:28 yeah we had some great conversation i also wanted to thank the guy who bought everyone dinner 2:29:33 that was nice so my question was um 2:29:41 yeah that guy's great it wasn't me 2:29:44 um i actually have two questions the first one um so now that i know what oracles are 2:29:53 and prediction markets how does the your the Hivemind system identify 2:30:02 spammers like are there super nodes that kind of check things 2:30:08 or uh well what do you mean by so like if there's a prediction going on for a certain election for 2:30:17 example and everyone's betting on it that that is what a prediction market is correct 2:30:26 um yes so any event really 2:30:30 i guess where does that that truth come from does it come from just um google yeah oh you know the 2:30:37 white paper is about that and it's very long and it's uh it's like 50 pages long and there's like 2:30:42 appendices and things okay it's like the whole thing is like 80 but it's but it's uh i hate to 2:30:47 say that but i i try to give you some idea of what i do is um it's people make a there's a 2:30:54 distributed like sort of corporation so to speak that's on the blockchain where today you would 2:31:01 we would say stake but really i'm not sure what you basically people stake coins that get slashed 2:31:07 if they misbehave where misbehavior is very very carefully defined so we have people buy in 2:31:17 to basically the oracle corporation 2:31:19 to basically the oracle corporation 2:31:23 this oracle corporation um its job is to resolve you know give the truth for each market 2:31:30 and it collects the the fees so they're the primary beneficiary they're making all this money 2:31:38 the more people trade in the markets and so that's that's the sort of layer one of the onion 2:31:48 and so it's the corporation that resolves them all at a certain time so in and like april 1st 2:31:55 so like you have the the events all they have a time period associated with them so they say 2:32:00 like we're betting on the election happens in november that would be q4 of the year 2:32:06 so after q4 ends there's a list of all the questions you're supposed to be able to answer now 2:32:13 because it's january 1st and you have to answer everything that happened in q4 of 2:32:16 the previous year and then so you're supposed to do that by april 1st so it's you have a really 2:32:23 really long time to resolve this and there's a reason why that doesn't matter which i could 2:32:30 happily explain but um it'll get a little complicated in the weeds and i don't know 2:32:37 if there'll be a riot since it has nothing to do with Drivechain per se even though it is 2:32:42 it would be a Drivechain if we had the 300 activated we would have it um on bitcoin which 2:32:49 would be great but what it does is you people buy into the corporation on april 1st everyone 2:32:55 is supposed to have submitted their stuff what happens in q4 and this is on a rolling basis so 2:33:01 you know by the time you make it to july 1st you're supposed to have finished answering everything 2:33:07 that happened in q1 and so that's part of it the corporation means that you don't exit scam 2:33:14 so as people get more and more as the corporation accumulates its reputation 2:33:20 for answering things honestly it should uh the sort of market cap of the corporation should go 2:33:25 up so you you gain money uh that way so instead of exit scamming you just sell it's like if you 2:33:32 grow a company to a certain size and then you sell so that's one facet of it but another facet 2:33:37 of it is that i do a statistical trick called singular value decomposition and what happens 2:33:46 with that is the uh your you if everyone answers everything exactly the same then it doesn't 2:33:54 trigger because there's total unanimity but if there's any disagreement at all it calculates 2:34:01 the multivariate average of what happened and then whoever deviated the most is slashed they 2:34:08 lose like 20 of their holdings in the corporation and everyone else the closer they were the more 2:34:15 deviant they were the more they get punished up to that 20 maximum and their shares are redistributed 2:34:24 to the other shareholders so if you are reporting on the truth you actually are 2:34:30 the ideal thing for you would be for like 49 percent of the other people around you to give 2:34:35 the wrong answer and this is supposed to make these people a little more independent 2:34:41 because now you can't trust the other people you're voting with because they their best 2:34:47 their best case scenario is to trick you into being the is to getting off the average and if 2:34:54 you get off the average and it's no good to be slightly off the average because if everyone else 2:34:58 is perfectly on the average and you are off by just one one answer is off just a little 2:35:04 then you're the person who is who is off by the most and you lose the maximum amount 2:35:12 so that's also how i try to keep them independent a little bit and it's also the way you aggregate 2:35:19 many many each each shareholder in the corporation so to speak each of them votes on all the questions 2:35:27 so those are some of the tips and techniques that i use for my decentralized peer-to-peer oracle so 2:35:36 we don't have time to get into all of it but but i gave a talk if you go on bitcoinhivemind.com i 2:35:42 gave a q con talk in march 2017 i think called the oracle problem and i gave a little talk about that 2:35:51 that and so that'd be good good talk to watch if you are interested in that 2:36:04 okay yeah that's in my mind if i was designing such a system it would be okay 2:36:12 we have these spiders set up and they're going to spider these urls for the results 2:36:18 and then the users are just kind of voting on the accuracy of that that result the thing is 2:36:23 actually that um that doesn't work and i explain why early on in the q con talk 2:36:29 because the blockchain has to synchronize someone has to be able to download the blockchain a year 2:36:34 from now and they have to get the exact same result as you but they will be visiting the 2:36:40 url at a different time and they won't know what it said in the past and so that doesn't work 2:36:48 i wish it did but it's similar to Drivechain where i shrink the problem down and then i have 2:36:52 a human being convey it over because what the what you do is you say there's these links is 2:36:58 this url you say this is what i'm betting on what will the global average service temperature be as 2:37:03 reported by this satellite on this date and the people then checking it in that quarter 2:37:12 and what they want is uh what you do is you make it so that the task is very easy to do 2:37:21 but a human has to still like transcribe it over so that part is i didn't have i don't have time 2:37:29 to explain it but you could do is you would have a situation where like software does 2:37:34 automates the whole thing but a human just can't glances at it at the very end 2:37:39 but it doesn't really work to tie it to the url it needs to have the incentive to work because the 2:37:49 url is aspirational the url could always you know you could get a 404 on a random day and is that 2:37:58 is the 404 that is that the right answer for everyone or is it like okay i need to come back 2:38:04 i need to come back tomorrow so you need effort you need people then to want it to get a true 2:38:12 answer anyway nice seeing you again uh yeah thanks um yeah yeah sure that was my own question 2:38:25 uh pulse ln you have a question 2:38:34 no question from pulse ln who is you're muted if you have a question 2:38:44 nope just a heart just in a symbol of eternal unconditional love for all 2:38:55 okay that's good i like that 2:38:57 um so yes come up if you have something to say or you'll you'll be hearing me talk about 2:39:10 peer-to-peer oracle i know you don't want to hear about that it's really boring 2:39:17 no that's nice the boring stuff is always great stuff 2:39:20 because it's educational uh well you know uh like i really believe that this prediction 2:39:30 market thing is really big like it's a it's a big idea and it's another thing where it's 2:39:36 very similar to bitcoin where bitcoin is just like a bank that's just adding and subtracting numbers 2:39:42 but it is really important because it's voluntarily it's like banking it helps 2:39:49 people cooperate and it just turns the world from a bunch of people who would all probably 2:39:53 kill each other into a world where everyone can cooperate like the mill de friedman pencil thing 2:39:59 but this prediction market thing is also it's it's really really big because it's a very simple idea 2:40:04 it just says you can buy and sell shares in apple well why can't you buy and sell shares in 2:40:11 who will be elected or in what combinations of events would happen together and this really 2:40:17 makes everyone on the planet earth um as intelligent as the smartest person on earth 2:40:25 if not more because they're all combined it combines everyone and aggregates everyone's 2:40:30 knowledge and then it brought for free completely this is a really cool part it's for free just by 2:40:35 looking up the prices and and staring at them with your eyes it broadcasts this information 2:40:41 to everyone so everyone around can look you can all go on election betting odds.com right now 2:40:47 trump has been the front runner in the republican party ever since this site for as long as the site 2:40:53 has been up as for as long as it has had uh numbers for 2024 but if you if you just participate in the 2:41:01 regular world this is this kind of has this nebulous quality to it like you kind of think 2:41:05 well maybe anyone could run maybe anyone could be the republican nominee but not if you live 2:41:11 in prediction market world in prediction market world you know even though you don't know anything 2:41:16 about like i don't i don't participate in in any kind of republican national committee or anything 2:41:23 like that i'm a registered voter but i don't really do anything so but if you watch the prediction 2:41:31 markets you know that they they plan it out like as soon as the one election ends they're already 2:41:36 planning it out and there are some sometimes people burst onto the scene sometimes people 2:41:42 catch a bad break and they get kicked out but on the whole it's a very carefully managed process 2:41:48 who gets to run and it's also very carefully managed who is likely to win in particular 2:41:56 the incumbent has an edge so so it's very important that this is just one example among many 2:42:04 of something where what would normally be utterly mystifying to you you can know you can be more 2:42:11 or less certain that your knowledge on a given question matches what the most knowledgeable 2:42:19 people in the world believe because of course if any of these prices are are wrong in any sense 2:42:25 some of them will be too low and then you can buy those and then if you're right about 2:42:32 something being a good buy at seven cents or so you buy enough of things at seven cents if you 2:42:38 think if you have a portfolio of like 5,000 things there's 5,000 prediction markets let's 2:42:43 say there's a million prediction markets in the world and you you 5,000 things that are there 2:42:49 should be 10 cents but they're really they're really trading for seven cents you buy all these 2:42:56 things and then large large numbers is you're guaranteed to be making a lot of money on that 2:43:02 uh because if you're really right that 10 percent of these things should be happening 2:43:08 you buy 5,000 around 500 will happen but you bought for you know you bought for seven cents 2:43:17 something that and an expected value of 10 cents so you immediately uh got a huge return there 2:43:26 so the prediction market thing is pretty big because it lets you predict the future it lets 2:43:30 you establish the relationship between things that are happening in the future and that allows 2:43:36 you to decide like okay you don't just say who who is likely to win the election you say if 2:43:42 the republican party won if or if the democratic party won or if whatever party wins 2:43:47 if the party wins what will the unemployment rate be or what what other things will happen 2:43:53 for example barack obama ran on closing guantanamo bay he won the election and he 2:44:00 also won a super majority in the senate by narrow narrowly 60 people only 2:44:08 but he had a super majority in the senate and he won the house and he had the supreme court 2:44:12 and yet guantanamo bay stayed open the whole time he was there 2:44:17 and he couldn't even get his obamacare this is part of the deficiency of the u.s. system but 2:44:23 because you really need you need a bigger majority than 60 you need a big super majority really uh 2:44:32 because the founding fathers they were very smart and they knew that they mostly designed it to make 2:44:37 it difficult for the politicians to get anything done which was pretty smart in many ways but anyway 2:44:46 but anyway my point is if we had prediction markets uh that guantanamo bay it doesn't 2:44:53 matter how likely obama was to win versus mccain or romney the the the contract that would pay a 2:45:02 dollar if guantanamo bay closed the guantanamo bay payoff you know guantanamo bay coin or whatever 2:45:08 you want to call it the thing that the prediction market would would buy from you for a dollar 2:45:14 or for one bitcoin it would be trading at zero because everyone knew that it wouldn't happen 2:45:21 but not me i kind of thought oh it probably would happen that's just one example among many 2:45:26 but of course yeah it's a makes it impossible to lie it makes it impossible for politicians 2:45:30 and ceos to misrepresent themselves to these people who we have a situation where the ceo 2:45:39 knows everything that's happening every day the president knows everything that's happening every 2:45:42 day they have enormous expertise so how can a lay person ever hold these people accountable 2:45:52 but the answer is that you don't you have you just have a prediction market you say if we 2:45:55 replace the ceo with this guy what would happen to the share price and then it's other experts 2:46:01 are betting on that it may even be the ceos themselves the person next in line they might 2:46:06 know they might say i know if i was a ceo i could move the stock price up they mortgage their house 2:46:14 they bet everything on this they move the market enough and now they're installed the ceo and now 2:46:19 they are going to lose everything unless they actually move the share price up or the market 2:46:26 ignores their advice they are not made the ceo and then they make a ton of money from the prediction 2:46:33 market when the share price fails to increase so it's a pretty important idea because it's really 2:46:41 about like who watches the watchman and kind of like how does knowledge diffuse through society 2:46:49 which is key because we have this internet thing and we have we all speak english mostly and we have 2:46:55 fiber optic cable everywhere but still we struggle to agree on things but that's what 2:47:03 a prediction market would do it would make everyone that's why i renamed it to Bitcoin Hivemind 2:47:10 so i think it's a pretty great idea and this is a sidechain that we would have if we activated 2:47:14 BIP300 we would just have this tomorrow although not quite tomorrow because i'm a little bit of a 2:47:20 perfectionist and i have a great person collaborating with me who is rewriting it in in rust so 2:47:32 the perfectionism will screw it up but we don't seem to be getting BIP300 2:47:37 within the next month or two anyway so 2:47:41 so that's kind of the lay of the land with respect to that but please visit my other site 2:47:45 the bitcoinhivemind.com and this is a an issue that i feel strongly about this is my answer to 2:47:52 like the peter teal question where they say what's something that you believe that no one else no one 2:47:57 else agrees with you or no one else knows you know what's something that everyone else should know 2:48:01 but they don't mine is that the our obscure obscure u.s law and our weird cultural convention 2:48:11 against gambling is like basically the worst decision in all of human history and is responsible 2:48:19 for enormous wide-scale misery poverty or death etc and just frustration and confusion and just 2:48:30 miserableness overall is that if we had only in the united states legalized gambling like they do 2:48:35 in the uk and other places um we would have uh achieved perfect nirvana and utopia but 2:48:47 but we have not and so 2:48:52 so that's just a weird view that i have but but yeah check out my 2:48:56 other site bitcoinhivemind.com for information about that 2:49:01 one thing i'm curious about um like when i'm playing when i'm gambling 2:49:07 i'll put like five dollars on red and three dollars on black 2:49:13 where i'm like narrowing my loss is it will Hivemind have that yeah but you know that's not really 2:49:20 a reasonable thing to do why not just put two just put two on red i mean you're kind of levering 2:49:29 i mean you're kind of levering you're you're de-levering yeah but you know it uh but yeah 2:49:34 it actually does do that and i actually have a big excel spreadsheet where i give in details 2:49:39 about that did you know that um if you buy an underlying if you buy like a share of apple 2:49:45 but you partially finance that with borrowing it's mathematically equivalent to buying a 2:49:51 call option so a call option is just the underlying plus leverage so what you're doing 2:49:57 there is you're deleveraging but you could do that if you if you just added like cash to your 2:50:04 portfolio or something but yeah you can do that you can buy for example you can have a prediction 2:50:08 market that says uh will the re will the republican party win the presidential election yes or no 2:50:15 then you could bet on yes and no but i have to tell you what it will do what the software will 2:50:20 do in that case is for every time you buy if you try to buy three shares of yes and two shares of 2:50:25 no and the price to say the price of yet let's say it's 50 50 the market is 50 50 and you want 2:50:33 to buy three shares of yes three share two shares of no the market will just charge you two um let's 2:50:40 just say it's bitcoin just to not think about it so let's say it's the markets are 50 50.5 bitcoin 2:50:46 for yes 0.5 bitcoin for each share of no 2.5 shares for each it will just charge you two bitcoin 2:50:55 up front and then it'll give you a full set so it'll give you one yes one no and it'll charge 2:51:02 you one dollar one you know one bitcoin and it'll give you one another one one yes one no 2:51:08 we'll charge you one bitcoin and then it will charge you 50 cents sort of depends on the 2:51:14 liquidity of this market which is a parameter set in the by whoever created it which we don't really 2:51:21 have that much time to go into probably but it will then um then it will so you see what i mean 2:51:30 like the first two are kind of like you're buying something where either the yes will pay off 2:51:36 for one bitcoin and the no will be zero or the no will pay off for one bitcoin and the yes will be 2:51:43 zero but you're buying that you're buying each of those for one bitcoin so like nothing is happening 2:51:52 but yeah you know that you well you're guaranteed to win but you're also guaranteed to lose so 2:51:58 because one of those two will be worth nothing so so you kind of are just holding a bitcoin 2:52:07 but sure you could do it 2:52:21 so cool great 2:52:29 prediction markets i think it's i think it's another thing that people will not really 2:52:35 understand until they can use it they need to use it which is why i really feel like it is a good 2:52:41 application of actually having a blockchain because the in trade was closed down by the 2:52:48 government and all kinds of other stuff we have these weird laws and we have 2:52:52 bizarre cultural conventions hacks frictions and other things and so if it was just this place 2:52:56 where you could just do it unmolested and people could just make money then there would be like a 2:53:03 whole little industry would be like mining where there'd be like this whole little industry and the 2:53:07 industry would be about finding the truth making money by making the good bets and it would be 2:53:14 making money by making the good bets and it would be subsidized by people who wanted to 2:53:21 know the truth and this is a long conversation but i have a talk about this that i was never 2:53:30 able to give because over ruined it and so i never gave this talk but it's kind of a complicated topic 2:53:37 but but basically my view is that this is a type of thing that people have to experience first and 2:53:44 then they'll get it and then after they get it they'll be like how did we ever live without this 2:53:50 which is kind of like uh you know many things we do like a accounting uh you know like uh 2:54:00 generally accepted accounting um like the idea that uh if you if everyone did their accounting 2:54:08 differently and then one person said okay listen this is how we should do things we need to 2:54:13 we need to have a standardized standardized accounting we have the third party auditors come 2:54:19 in well that would make it really look like you didn't trust your own organization so that would 2:54:25 so that would look kind of weird but the tables are turned if you fast forward to a world where 2:54:32 everyone does this everyone does the accounting in a standardized way and then you say you know 2:54:38 and i'm just going to invent my own accounting and i don't want any third party auditors coming in 2:54:43 now you see that that that's no good and so that i think that'll be a little bit how this is or like 2:54:49 you know um who gives uh brian caplin gives this example about like if you went back hundreds of 2:54:57 years and there was uh there was a monarchy and you said you know we should have a democracy 2:55:02 people should vote everyone would be like what but after after some of the kinks are sort of 2:55:12 worked out it seems more bizarre for uh people to say okay you know we're all all of us are going 2:55:19 to agree everyone in this country is going to agree on one person who will be in charge and 2:55:25 when that person dies their children will take over it seems like that's that doesn't really 2:55:31 solve the problem of disagreement very well because people are going to disagree over who 2:55:40 that person is a lot and then they are it's you're just going to be really really hoping that the 2:55:47 children of that person turn out to be talented 2:56:09 well anyway i think you know this is the third hour so maybe we should start winding it down 2:56:13 in case so if you have any any questions or comments that you just really would really 2:56:19 feel really terrible if you weren't able to make 2:56:25 now is also a great time to 2:56:30 come up to the stage and ask your question 2:56:53 hey paul you there yes hello hey uh i'm all at the whole you know like coins of shit coin comment 2:57:01 slide but uh now do you do these regularly because i i we talked about this in my spaces 2:57:09 uh a couple weeks ago and i think i have a general understanding about it from the beginning you know 2:57:14 if you're winding things down yeah we do it every friday and you know i think litecoin whatever like 2:57:22 i don't have a problem with um again like i'm not opposed to it at all it's just like i'm not 2:57:26 set and i also don't know like whatever the conventions are for adding things to litecoin 2:57:32 so i don't even process you know as bitcoin obviously right well it's that bad huh well i 2:57:39 mean you know it's it's funny because one of the things about you know charlie and the litecoin 2:57:45 foundation they don't have any technical uh control undue control but they certainly have a lot of 2:57:54 sway and uh he holds a lot of he carries a lot of weight right so sometimes it does make things 2:58:01 easier when you have somebody who's kind of respected as the guy who's trying to do his best 2:58:09 for the long term like i don't think anybody questions charlie's motives about litecoin 2:58:14 so um that sometimes makes it easier you know in our conversations in the kind of within the 2:58:20 community because i do a spaces every week i initially was kind of like um you know the 2:58:27 protocols are really designed to be resistant to if people don't want to use it they don't have to 2:58:33 use it right that's the whole point of having the ability to fork or run your own node and all that 2:58:40 type of stuff so um i at first was kind of like yeah i don't see what the harm is um i think the 2:58:48 more i think about it it does it it's very confusing from the outside you know some of the 2:58:54 the time frames of having to get x amount of approvals for was it three months to get your 2:58:59 money from the sidechain back to the to the main chain and i know there's reasons for that 2:59:05 but i think uh for non-technical people it just sounds very it just sounds very complicated i 2:59:12 guess right um and so i think i've always felt like bitcoin is the one that's that base layer 2:59:19 and you want it to be as uh simple as possible and i'm a multi-coiner obviously right so what's 2:59:29 the harm in just using other chains and keeping bitcoin as pristine as possible um and i kind of 2:59:36 feel the same way about litecoin i think i think you have coins yeah but you'd like that wouldn't 2:59:39 you right this is the funny thing is that it's kind of like i think i think that i think that 2:59:46 could be a good direction but that's just not what i thought um so like for example 2:59:54 if we're going to keep all the coins unchanging and pristine then on what basis do people in 3:00:00 bitcoin on what basis do they disparage other chains you know what i mean because you know 3:00:06 like why can jock why can jacomo say everything that's not bitcoin is a scam if we're going to 3:00:10 say that everything's going to be frozen in time you know it's going to be a picture a snapshot 3:00:18 uh whereas for me i just see no reason why bitcoin can't so to me it is like the the cell phone thing 3:00:24 where it's like 20 years later and all these devices fit in your pocket or whatever where 3:00:28 they have like the digital camera the boom box the the video camera the like the tape recorder 3:00:36 the radio and these are all now in one device so i think um but yeah i think a lot of people 3:00:44 do feel that way and i think a lot of the critics of BIP300 are actually people who 3:00:48 just own altcoins i'm not saying that's you but i'm saying that i think that is like people think 3:00:54 oh no like uh they don't there's a lot of vested interests all around right so yeah it's definitely 3:01:03 very interesting i mean you know if you had like um you know the weird position where litecoin is 3:01:09 is that anything bitcoin does like taproot or lightning or SegWit you know they're they're 3:01:14 fairly interoperable so it's like it's not hard to take code from one and move it to the other 3:01:21 and uh so yeah we're a little bit you could call us the test net or when taproot was on bitcoin that 3:01:26 was litecoin's test net technically right so it's like um i feel like if it's something that's 3:01:33 good for bitcoin then it's maybe will ultimately be good for litecoin um i don't know i mean it 3:01:38 just feels very convoluted and i also and i'm not saying that's your that it is i'm just saying 3:01:43 from the outside just the technique the the web point of view it sounds like a lot of running 3:01:50 around to copy things that i don't even know that we're sure there's a lot of value in yet 3:01:59 you know some of the side like i get i think the fungibility thing is huge 3:02:03 privacy is something that definitely needs to be addressed but as far as like i don't i mean 3:02:10 i don't know some of the smart contract stuff i don't know what we're seeing yet right how much 3:02:17 value has really accrued to the coin itself in order to operate a smart contract yeah i agree 3:02:27 i personally am not interested in ethereum really at all but it was important to me that we 3:02:33 clone it and one reason is because to me this whole if you go to crypto fees.info 3:02:41 and you just see that and you could see it online i've tweeted this graph 3:02:46 yeah i know what you're talking about the fees paid and it went and went from like one one thousandth 3:02:54 ethereum being far much one thousandth bitcoin's fees on a daily fees to being like 100 times 3:03:01 higher on like a logarithmic scale and to me that just really looks like they have real paying 3:03:07 customers and so i just and they're the number two coin so i just thought we'll clone it and 3:03:11 we'll just show everyone that no one is safe from being cloned right but yeah i agree with you that 3:03:16 i personally don't really i don't really see the appeal but i i think it's also the right thing 3:03:21 is to it's not the case that the customer is always right right you know but but in general 3:03:26 we shouldn't take an attitude uh if these people want to you know what i mean like pushing for 3:03:33 adoption is hard enough and if you have people who want to adopt a certain thing and then you're 3:03:39 going to just say well you know get lost because i personally don't understand it i mean how many 3:03:45 things that that we personally experienced in our lives we thought you know and i probably i don't 3:03:50 think i really like that or i don't know why anyone would like that and then later on in your 3:03:55 life you decide you know what i really like this well yeah i mean trust me you know i'd be in 3:03:59 somebody who's on the you know we're in the butt end of the the maxi hate sometimes right 3:04:04 it's always been funny to me like it's the idea of like well i go to mcdonald's and i like 3:04:09 mcdonald's so there should be no other restaurants in town right just like the craziest concept in the 3:04:15 world to each their own yeah yeah and of course the one problem is if you say stuff like that 3:04:23 mcdonald's is all you need you know bitcoin bitcoin core what they really mean is like 3:04:29 bitcoin core released in you know bitcoin core version 23 or something bitcoin core of a certain 3:04:34 year is all you need and all you will ever need uh they're saying something like uh we i am 3:04:42 omniscient and i know everything that has been invented in the whole crypto space and everything 3:04:47 that will be invented right and it's kind of like no you don't like that's not true you know 3:04:54 of course they don't i mean it was true in the past i think it's like hey the biggest problem 3:04:58 to solve is this the fiat money issue right and just by purely even offering a competitive 3:05:07 alternative to fiat currencies is a huge leap forward and is that enough at that point to say 3:05:16 we've we've leveled by at least invalidating some fiat currencies and many of them eventually 3:05:22 probably all of them um and is that enough and are and do we are we getting a little greedy 3:05:29 too fast too soon to not let that play out but i also understood but that that's where i go well 3:05:34 if your if your proposals are ultimately fairly harmless then yeah who like who cares right is it 3:05:43 again if it's horrible everyone just can't you just soft fork and remove it right everybody 3:05:49 could just go back to the old version yes exactly so i tell you that i i actually completely agree 3:05:57 with you mostly i mean i hope that these people are right the people say bitcoin success is 3:06:02 inevitable and that it will inevitably reach you know 100 trillion dollar market cap like you know 3:06:08 that would be great i hope those people are right you know good for them and uh i'm just 3:06:13 not willing to bet everything on that because uh i'll tell you why but first let me just reiterate 3:06:19 that it's kind of like you like every fiat currency is shooting itself in the head right 3:06:27 you know like the we have the unsustainable us fiscal situation that no one is going to do anything 3:06:32 about the precedent has long been set that we will just monetize which which we did recently 3:06:39 with covid and we did it before with great financial crisis and we did it before with the 3:06:45 middle eastern wars and we we every single time we do it and it just grows bigger and bigger in 3:06:52 absolute terms and as a percentage of gdp and everything's so and no one cares used to be a 3:06:57 debate topic the republican debates they used to get a question i haven't watched the recent ones 3:07:05 maybe i'll do that later today i used to do that for fun so maybe i'll watch them and i'll see i'll 3:07:10 play a little game with myself do they ask the republican candidates about like balancing the 3:07:17 budget or the long-run fiscal health of the country and they used to always do it but now 3:07:24 they almost never do it and so i'm my bet that i'm going to make with myself is that they don't 3:07:28 even mention it but maybe they do i could be completely wrong but the point is you know the 3:07:34 political will to do anything about that is like completely evaporated and so then it's like you 3:07:39 know the euro also sucks china is in a demographic collapse and they lie all their numbers are lies 3:07:45 no offense to them we love the chinese work ethic you know china's great and whatever you know rags 3:07:53 to riches story i love that they have so many trains and things and i you know i cheer china on 3:08:03 but you know whenever i go to china no one wants no one wants chinese currency they all want usdt 3:08:09 is my recent experience so uh no one wants no one wants chinese cash there are you know like they 3:08:18 all want one out japan demographic collapse yep uh you're like so like every fiat currency like 3:08:26 what is it going to be brazil no the russian ruble negative infinite no so in in the short 3:08:34 term it almost seems like um the inflation of the u.s dollar is really being offset by 3:08:42 adoption by more people you know because because all the other currencies absolutely had the 3:08:47 growing the older i get no you're absolutely right the older i get the more i think i used 3:08:53 to think what are these people doing but now when i get older i think are they geniuses 3:08:58 because do they know like exactly how far they can push the envelope and just extract 3:09:04 seven trillion dollars out of thin air and like there's no riot there's no nothing like people 3:09:10 complain about inflation but but yeah and then the dollar people love that people love the product 3:09:15 that's the other weird thing you have a you have this cadre of libertarians in the united states 3:09:21 who hate inflation and they buy things like gold real estate bitcoin we profit off of it all 3:09:29 because if you once you're aware of it you just opt out to to a large extent you opt out you just 3:09:34 say i'm not holding any cash i'm investing in inflation things you have to participate in a 3:09:39 speculative environment which is the critics point out that that's bad and they're right 3:09:44 but but we have this cadre of libertarians and then you have all these people all around the 3:09:50 world and they just they'll do anything to get their hands on dollars they just love the product 3:09:55 and it's because everyone else is so bad you know nigeria zimbabwe whatever they're so 3:10:01 just terrible at it and even in italy you know greece france they just 3:10:10 they just terrible it's like the euro is the worst designed thing yeah it's so dumb no offense 3:10:18 if you worked on the euro i mean the euro it's the whole point of the euro is the german people 3:10:23 feel guilty about world war ii and that's like the entire thing and that's because german guilt is 3:10:29 one of the most powerful forces in the universe so uh but it's just like i you know it doesn't 3:10:36 make any sense so it's like everything you do the same thing right they started out with a 3:10:40 certain number of countries and the only way to maintain relevance is you have to have new 3:10:44 adoption to offset your inflation so they more and more so that's why they need other countries 3:10:50 and new populations and why they're not afraid of immigration frankly either either us or europe 3:10:55 it's like we need more users to offset all this money we're pretty 3:10:58 it's yes there's actually everyone is having a demographic collapse so to speak but it's the u.s 3:11:07 is is not as much and the u.s the pro-immigration of the u.s it's immigration is such a great 3:11:17 scam for lack of a better word these other countries they raise and educate people and 3:11:24 then of those is a big sort you know there's a big sorting machine the most intelligent the 3:11:31 most hard-working and the ones who are the most ambitious and the most intrepid 3:11:37 they they move to the u.s when they're like 20 or when they're like 25 for the prime working 3:11:43 so they we pay none of the cost they come here immediately start paying taxes 3:11:50 you know it's just it's such a scam i can't believe that we don't i can't believe we don't 3:11:54 like roll out the red carpet for literally everyone in every direction but but obviously that's so i 3:12:00 thought what i'm just trying to say is i completely agree with you that it's like everyone is 3:12:05 committing suicide the fiat currencies and should we just do absolutely nothing at all that would 3:12:11 be like the steel man but where i disagree is i just have direct first-hand knowledge of how 3:12:17 possible it is to to like clone a different coin and we see all these people releasing the coins 3:12:23 you know you see ethereum you see people do people just spin up a solana which has very low effort 3:12:29 you know you have one a16z partner you spin it up and so yeah i kind of worry within the crypto 3:12:37 domain it's all open source it's just very easy to spin something up so i actually worry about the 3:12:43 worry about the competition intra intra crypto right competition more and i think we don't really 3:12:52 have great competitors to bitcoin i mean luckily for us but i think if we did then i think like 3:13:00 why why even why even take that risk and why even go to that that point but i just wanted to reiterate 3:13:05 as strongly as possible that i i actually i understand why people say that because the fiat 3:13:11 currencies are just so badly run and whatever and but i do part of this is that i think we 3:13:17 have to actually because bitcoin has to actually become a currency with a payment system somewhere 3:13:22 that is not you know it has to you have to do like a full root and branch complete replacement 3:13:28 or you say we're going to replace the whole thing like right now we have a central bank 3:13:35 bank of international settlements the fed we have bank chase manhattan we have visa 3:13:42 the goal is really to build out a whole stack that replaces that entire thing 3:13:49 but the whole thing is replaced so you have like small block l1 sidechains for payment side 3:13:55 chains for anonymity you have other l2s you have lightning you have different wallets you have spv 3:14:01 client you have like a whole a whole big pyramid of stuff features and things and you have actual 3:14:08 use cases you have stuff that you would buy stuff you'd use the money for which is like a Namecoin 3:14:13 and prediction markets kind of come in also in that way for me kind of i think like fundamental 3:14:19 value type of thing and i just think you really want to do that if you really want to compete 3:14:24 seriously with the fiat currencies what you mentioned earlier is like you know why you 3:14:29 don't think you know it's going to go to a hundred trillion dollars or whatever whatever 3:14:33 whatever the the the moon shot is right what i think we shouldn't just say well that's about 3:14:41 you know the one of the limiting factors is obviously the level of adoption right that you 3:14:45 need the money is this kind of it ultimately is a social layer to a degree right you have to have 3:14:52 enough people agreeing that that's the thing that they want to use and they want to accept 3:14:56 and if you're limiting how many people are allowed to operate on the platform 3:15:01 or use the thing all right use the money that's a restricting factor to adoption and so i do i do 3:15:07 agree with you what these other platforms have done have created interesting things that require 3:15:14 you to use ethereum and solana and what i think a lot of people don't understand like 2017 the 3:15:20 reason bitcoin in my opinion was so i mean shot up so wildly was because you had in order to access 3:15:28 altcoins you had to buy bitcoin it was the only like common link between all exchanges 3:15:34 so everybody settled into bitcoin because that was the that was the universal money of of the 3:15:43 crypto space and what happened in 2021 is stable coins came along and ethereum and uniswap and 3:15:51 solana and all these ecosystems cropped up where you could access all these games all this gambling 3:15:57 whatever you want to call it you could access all this new crypto without ever having to touch 3:16:01 bitcoin and a lot of them never did which is like mind-blowing right you get this massive 3:16:05 explosion of users and they didn't even they didn't bother to look at bitcoin right so it's 3:16:12 weird it's like you're you know you in the short term i understand what you're saying you got to 3:16:16 bring people in um and i think if it's in a harmless way that's and that's probably the 3:16:22 only thing what's what's the risk so like in your mind to be self-critiquing what's the biggest risk 3:16:28 of these bips well i mean so the thing is i didn't i knew all of that when i set out to create them 3:16:36 so it's not like i created something independently of that and now we're gonna see if it has any risks 3:16:42 i knew all the whole point i thought we're gonna okay we're gonna open the door to these side 3:16:46 chains so i thought we have to design it in a way that it can never negatively impact the people who 3:16:52 aren't using it so it's like design is all designed around that i think honestly the biggest risk is 3:16:57 something like i waste everyone's time with this idea and it turns out being unpopular i don't 3:17:02 there's no real way that it can uh do anything like there's nothing that it does that we don't 3:17:09 already do you know we already allow miners to collect transaction fees we already allow them to 3:17:14 merge mine we already allow something to we already allow people to sell their bitcoin and buy 3:17:21 litecoin or buy solana so this is just sending your bitcoin to a script where you get like bit 3:17:29 solana and then you and then asking the miners to send it back you know just in a way that they 3:17:36 probably will and so uh if it doesn't work then we'll be back where we are and it's up not five 3:17:44 we just shut up not five off there we have infinite op codes so 3:17:52 so uh there's really no is just designed not to have any risk 3:17:57 it certainly has a one a couple of things it might do is alter the trajectory of like 3:18:02 what people focus on but that's true of anything you know that was certainly true 3:18:08 lightning network and ethereum they you know they changed all kinds of other stuff around 3:18:15 uh i think it's uh i think it's quite likely that um that something like this will eventually 3:18:22 happen anyway and so i don't even see how it could be significantly different from this 3:18:27 given that as i was saying before miners can always filter any messages any message from l1 3:18:33 that they like miners can uh so miners can always kill any idea uh i don't know like 3:18:43 what what would people do like maybe they come up with a zk-SNARK thing so that but even still 3:18:51 that doesn't actually help as much as people think it does at all 3:18:55 well because it's all about data availability really so so i don't know i i i don't think it 3:19:01 has turning it on as an option for other people to use i think it has no risk uh you know it 3:19:09 could always be a bug or something but but the way bitcoin works since the soft fork you have 3:19:15 all these people out there who won't upgrade so they'll never even enforce BIP300 so it's to 3:19:21 me it is really is like something that you only run it if you are using it the miners are some 3:19:28 of the users and that is kind of the whole reason why we're being so open and sort of transparent 3:19:37 about it is because we all share the same miner so so there's that sense in which it is 3:19:45 shared but i don't think there are the people who would big big losers would probably be like 3:19:51 altcoin people or people who are over invested in some rival l2 concept or the kind of like 3:19:58 a gatekeeper type person or something like that have you talked to charlie lee about it like any 3:20:03 time i know you've been at you met this i don't i haven't talked to him in a very long time 3:20:11 it's like to bobby lee yeah six months ago or so he's not a light coiner 3:20:20 he's a cool he's a cool little product yeah he's a nice guy too yeah i don't know i mean it's 3:20:33 yep i don't know either he got cut off a little bit there 3:20:47 well great so uh anyone wants to say anything then say it now i'm ordering some food to eat 3:20:53 hello hello 3:21:05 can you guys hear me 3:21:08 uh yes i think so okay are you uh worried uh told about the replicator problem and the replicators 3:21:19 replicators yeah if uh if the code is updated and something is not like uh 3:21:31 faded 100 maybe the problem with the replicators happen again 3:21:40 i'm not exactly sure what you're referring to their problem with the replicators 3:21:45 what does that mean i don't know this is a taking unused op-nop 5 and making a script 3:21:53 interpreter fail if you try to withdraw early before it's counting the 13 000 and that's all 3:21:59 it does and you could instead just make it fail instantly which would disable op-nop 5 3:22:03 forever and so in that sense okay so the damage you can do is very limited to now five is disabled 3:22:12 so there's no replicating happening uh beneath the bank 3:22:18 replication what you mean like uh coins being counterfeited i don't know what that means but 3:22:23 uh i've never heard of that so uh i don't think it is okay so no no no replicators 3:22:32 problem here okay thanks no replicators yes that's good that's good yep great 3:23:03 so 3:23:13 okay well this is pretty fun i think it uh went pretty well 3:23:21 none of those just think of all the hate this idea was getting 3:23:25 not that long ago but we've done many spaces since and 3:23:33 where are they now i don't know maybe they have moved on 3:23:38 to maybe they still hate this idea and they're just bored with repeating themselves but 3:23:46 nice to meet you oh great uh hello i uh yeah i actually just kind of wanted to ask 3:23:52 and i'm sorry if you've already stated this before but what do you feel is 3:23:56 your um biggest blocks or detriments for getting everybody to buy in 3:24:05 my biggest blocks my biggest detriment like thing i'm not doing very well or a thing getting 3:24:11 everybody to buy like to getting it like to getting the buy-in from it from the community 3:24:15 on the bib that's what i'm asking well i personally think we have a we have a you know 3:24:22 we have some supporters who are uh minors but again i think this is all trauma from 3:24:29 segment 2x which is all kind of nonsensical and if uh they should take slightly more of 3:24:38 a leadership role you know not just like i'm just saying just move the move the knob a little bit 3:24:43 you know if we could just get uh them to speak up a little bit more publicly some have but many 3:24:50 have not and if we could just get to uh that that would um like a we could do something where 3:24:58 a couple big pools speak out publicly in favor and they get their hash rate increases perhaps 3:25:05 and then that would just that would just be more um that would just show more seriousness 3:25:13 so that would that would move it along more quickly i think like just for example if we had 3:25:18 more than 50 hash rate signal support for the idea reliably and like not just signal in the 3:25:26 blockchain but also kind of like explain uh themselves on twitter or whatever then it would 3:25:32 kind of like move the whole thing forward a lot because then people would say oh well they could 3:25:36 just activate this with more than 50 and so then it would kind of again that would that would kind 3:25:44 of rush things further but maybe they shouldn't be rushed but that would move it along because 3:25:49 then people would have to say we have to again hear the people say like why don't they like this 3:25:56 idea and what they end up saying is just like the user may deposit funds and lose their money which 3:26:02 is also true of literally everything including bitcoin itself and the lightning network obviously 3:26:09 so they say stuff like that or they say you know miners may make more money but of course 3:26:16 that's if you boil down this whole mining incentives thing that's really what they mean is that 3:26:20 miners may be asked to do a few things process withdrawals occasionally there's a dispute 3:26:30 run a node to probably not even happen and in return they get a huge amount of fee revenue and 3:26:38 growing fee revenue so that would be like the thing that i think would speed it up the most 3:26:43 would be if the miners would more publicly there have been a few but if they would more publicly 3:26:50 uh just say that they they don't have to say like listen we are going to do this idea but they could 3:26:56 say something like we want this idea publicly and we we want we would like people to say 3:27:04 we have an open inquiry we would like people to explain to us why this idea is bad that would 3:27:12 that would that would speed it up the most i think it's a lot of we have a lot of low skin 3:27:19 in the game people who they're just some guy with a twitter account and they just say 3:27:24 they say such and such and uh they uh they a lot of them have been saying they've been 3:27:29 critics for years so we have there's like the same three people who have been critics for a while and 3:27:35 they just say blah blah blah and people just say you know where there's smoke there's fire they 3:27:39 just sort of believe them or whatever so so i think that would that would help that would be 3:27:46 the fastest thing because we already have if you go to LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends we have an 3:27:52 enormous amount of elite support and we have some grassroots support we have support of all the 3:28:00 different flavors thank you to actually push it a little bit further i've just got like one i've 3:28:10 got a little bit of a response and then i yield my time and thank you for that um so i do i've 3:28:15 definitely fallen to the latter group that i am a low skin in the game twitter account holder right 3:28:21 that just kind of has been in bitcoin for a long time um i the only reason why i personally and i 3:28:27 don't have much uh much knowledge to be able to back it but i state that i i'm hesitant to have 3:28:35 fear of all sorts of changes because to me it always kind of seems to go back to the big block 3:28:39 small block argument where the reason why you're having this happen is because you have a smaller 3:28:45 group that stands to have great incentives and to gain greatly at the detriment of everyone and 3:28:51 it's usually masqueraded as one thing but there's a small thing that will be exploited and may it may 3:28:57 or may not happen it may or may not come to pass but that is the hesitancy that comes to my mind 3:29:03 personally and i think that many others like within our you know ecosystem who are like me who 3:29:09 you could say are low skin in the gamers feel that way and that is the resistance that you know 3:29:15 happens and i don't know how you will solve it um right now i'm in a you know observer but those 3:29:23 are my thoughts and like i said thank you for responding yeah sure well i mean do you have a 3:29:27 thought on what the you know what the detriment will be because from my point of view if you allow 3:29:35 people to just sell their bitcoin to buy solana then what's the difference between selling their 3:29:42 bitcoin and spending it into a BIP300 scripts and then having a different piece of software 3:29:47 they call bit solana just credit them it's a completely different network 3:29:54 see that precisely that i think that well that brings up a different point that you're just kind 3:29:58 of like so i guess i'm a bit of an idealist right like i'm choosing bitcoin to opt out i think many 3:30:05 people are and doing that you're kind of deriving and you're not that's not bitcoin anymore that's 3:30:10 just trying to do something to gain and you risk yourself at impermeable loss trying to do something 3:30:15 that's not bitcoin even if it's on the bitcoin chain and this is a risk that is born by that's 3:30:24 that's outside of bitcoin precisely yeah but that's the point though yes it is though 3:30:29 so the solana altcoin and the the Drivechain that would emulate solana those are both off 3:30:35 the bitcoin blockchain it's only BIP300 that is on the bitcoin blockchain 3:30:45 but you're still i can still that's still addressing what i'm saying even if you're using 3:30:49 a BIP300 chain you still risk some sort of impermeable loss that's not even kind of the 3:30:54 where i've heard of what i was going with and what the value of that was even what's the impermeable 3:30:59 loss i don't understand what you mean an impermeable loss like so you you go into this 3:31:05 BIP300 chain that you've put in a bitcoin worth of it somebody does something rugs it something 3:31:10 find some way to destroy it or make it like worthless and now your exit out of that is 3:31:16 five thousand or you know five hundred thousand satoshis as opposed to a hundred million 3:31:21 uh yes but that is uh but again that is someone who has chosen to 3:31:27 take that risk it's no different than when you sell your u.s dollars and bought bitcoin or 3:31:33 whatever country you're from you know what i mean like you choose to buy bitcoin right we're that's 3:31:39 what i've been saying we're saying the same thing like that yeah like and that was that wasn't even 3:31:43 where i was what i was trying to address and what i was my original i brought i came up because i 3:31:47 just kind of wanted to understand like where you and your team were on how you would convince us 3:31:55 the the nameless mini who liked to actually opt forward and where would we see the actual selfless 3:32:00 utility that yeah we can all actually benefit from utilizing this and you know putting this 3:32:05 up line and actually having you know the clients all utilize it right and that's that's yeah and 3:32:11 you've kind of like i'm saying i'm that i didn't even think about well how do we derive it into 3:32:16 you know how can it be utilized for an altcoin purpose or for a derivative purpose that you know 3:32:21 is that well uh i think it's the whole point of it is that it's optional so it's kind of like 3:32:28 the you what you might like is not what other people might like you know what i mean and the 3:32:36 people who want it's if you want only to stay on l1 then i think this also kind of helps you 3:32:43 because what would happen there would be no scaling war like what we had in the scaling war 3:32:47 was he had a lot of very sincere people who wanted large blocks and what when you know you 3:32:55 could say oh well he just won't let them get their way but then what happened what happened was 3:33:03 roger veer took the bitcoin.com domain name and split off and he created bitcoin cash and he 3:33:09 tried to represent it as the real bitcoin and uh you know like he didn't really succeed but it's 3:33:15 kind of like is that what you want to do when instead they could have just been people who use 3:33:23 something else no different than if how someone today could use liquid or could use pay to script 3:33:28 hash or could use the lightning network they would just be there would be bitcoiners who use the 3:33:33 lightning network and bitcoiners who don't and there would be bitcoiners who use the 3:33:36 large block sidechain and bitcoiners who don't and there would be bitcoiners who 3:33:40 use the Zcash privacy bitcoin sidechain and those who who don't so the the ability to resolve 3:33:49 disputes over like the block size and over you know so privacy and the scale i think are are 3:33:56 pretty big it has nothing to do with solana is just an example of something that's a dumb idea 3:34:01 that no offense if you like solana but it's like a very fringe idea where someone is likely to lose 3:34:08 all their money so that's why i use that i use it as an example of a bad idea because the whole 3:34:11 point you know you see the whole point is that we should not be judgmental with respect to you know 3:34:18 i mean like what if i went back in time and i told you you could tell someone today i don't think you 3:34:24 should be allowed to spend your own bitcoin into a bib 300 script that uses op-nop5 even though you 3:34:31 could do that today we say that we don't want the full node to enforce these new this code written 3:34:36 by paul or so the script interpreter fails so you could say you could say that to someone today 3:34:42 but i could go back in time and i could find the moment when you first bought bitcoin and i could 3:34:46 say you aren't allowed to invest your own us dollars or whatever you have you aren't allowed 3:34:53 to invest your own us dollars in bitcoin i don't think you should have that option 3:35:00 and what would you say to me you would say well too bad because i'm i do whatever i want 3:35:06 and that's kind of the that's kind of what this is as well it's it's the BIP300 part is not 3:35:13 is not stapling any of the solana stuff into the l1 blockchain you know it's only 3:35:20 again an analogy of an example of something that i got it 3:35:29 okay should we do uh mihai hello 3:35:31 hello hi um i have a couple of questions about the Drivechain uh i was in a space with some 3:35:50 other people having a debate back and forth excuse me and i was a bit confused on the 3:36:00 explanation of what act acting is and how does it work and also the other bit of it all was 3:36:09 the type of security because what i've been told is basically each one of 3:36:17 users they can choose their own security models so what what does it mean exactly 3:36:25 uh these two questions if i made myself clear uh if i didn't make myself clear i do apologize 3:36:33 uh no i think it was clear so first the act the acting is just counting it's like a counter but 3:36:39 it's uh and it's very much like a cross-chain confirmation but critically it only goes up 3:36:47 once per block but it can also stay the same if no one moves it around and it can also go 3:36:55 down by once a block so this is the thing that counts the 13 000 if you if the withdrawal 3:37:03 can accumulate enough of this count like enough upvotes to get to a 13 000 score 3:37:10 then it will clear and the withdrawal will go through on l1 but this is the only thing that 3:37:16 happens on l1 the deposits and withdrawals everything else is happening on l2 now the 3:37:22 idea of choosing your own security model that is completely true but i can understand how it 3:37:30 might confuse a lot of people because it means several unrelated things like at least three 3:37:36 so one of the things it means is you choose to deposit the coins into BIP300 so in other words 3:37:41 you choose the Drivechain security model versus the layer one security model or versus the 3:37:47 lightning network so you choose BIP300 so that's a narrow sense in which just like you would choose 3:37:56 whatever pay to script hash or you would choose liquid lightning state chains but what what people 3:38:03 are really getting at is something else uh what they really are getting at is 3:38:09 um if you want to live in a world where you have to run the large block chain 3:38:18 then you can so if you want to be roger veer and run large block bitcoin then you can do that 3:38:26 and um but if you want if you want to run something else where you run it you live in 3:38:31 a solana type world and you run a new piece of software that's bitcoin only but it's a clone of 3:38:37 solana uh then you do that and so what they mean there is they're talking about the cost of running 3:38:43 a full node and they're saying it's easy to run bitcoin core which is a node that is easier to run 3:38:50 which is a node that is easier to run and versus a different node which is very 3:38:58 expensive to run which a node which may reveal your physical location may be harder to run 3:39:05 over tor you know so maybe harder to run anonymously so what they really mean is this 3:39:11 idea of the differential node cost this idea that the nodes all cost different amounts 3:39:18 and you if you want it you know if you want it you should be able to buy it some some extent uh 3:39:25 what it's like um so like if you want to run something that is like Zcash a Zcash like thing 3:39:35 that thing will have more privacy but it will be harder to detect inflation bug so stuff like that 3:39:43 so that's what they mean is anyone can run their own software you run whatever node you want to 3:39:47 run you don't have to run the same node as everyone else see right now you either run 3:39:51 bitcoin core or you basically aren't running a node so it's all or nothing but when they 3:40:01 is it fair to say that this type of approach could increase the possibility of people putting 3:40:08 their asset at risk because if anything goes wrong with any models that anyone chooses then 3:40:20 you are basically on the loss isn't it uh yeah i think that is something that would happen 3:40:26 where we'd have what would happen is instead of people selling their bitcoin buying ethereum 3:40:33 and then getting rugged on ethereum would be exactly the same story but they would instead 3:40:38 there would be no ethereum part they would just they'd take their bitcoin they'd move it into 3:40:44 you know a bit ethereum like a something that is the software is almost identical to an ethereum 3:40:51 node but there's only bitcoin there they move it to rootstock and they move it in there and then 3:40:58 they would get rugged over there they would get they would invest in they would use defi and they 3:41:05 would get rugged and so then they would so they would lose in that sense there'd be more bitcoin 3:41:09 losses but only because there's more bitcoin activity so but in both cases it's the users 3:41:15 they've chosen that for themselves so the end result is the same it's just more bitcoin but i 3:41:21 will argue that also in our situation as it stands right now we also choose that security models it's 3:41:29 also the user choice but i will say that the approach is more decentralized now than what the 3:41:37 upgrade will will assume to bring if anything uh well um the we already choose our own security 3:41:49 model right but we have if we we cannot choose to use like if we have four bitcoin we can't 3:41:58 we have to use them with the bitcoin core security model so we cannot switch them to like the 3:42:03 ethereum security model and that's what i think people are referring to when they say 3:42:09 5300 allows you to choose your own security model that is my best guess by more decentralized i have 3:42:17 a very specific metric of decentralization as being the cost of spinning up a new full node 3:42:22 i mean i think though that it's a it's a it's an abstract term that has many different meanings 3:42:28 and i think there's one sense in which you're more free in the altcoin world to just do whatever you 3:42:35 want whereas BIP300 constrains you in a few ways because you have to use the 21 million bitcoin and 3:42:41 you have to have access to layer 1 bitcoin core so you're constrained if you use a Drivechain 3:42:48 instead of an altcoin so altcoin gives you more freedom 3:42:51 the problem is though you're stuck with an altcoin and then you have the same problem that for example 3:42:55 you know like bitcoin cash and all these other people have had where you have you lose 99 percent 3:43:00 of your of the u.s dollar value of the coin is is decreased because it's just difficult 3:43:08 having an altcoin is difficult it's like having several different seems like you have you go 3:43:12 into your house and you have different plug electrical plug sizes everywhere it's just 3:43:17 better to have standardization different you know near a qwerty keyboard and then you have 3:43:23 some other keyboard it's a completely different shape this doesn't really work you have usba you 3:43:30 know usb so those are some of my thoughts one more question and i'll because i see another hand up i 3:43:42 do apologize um the compression of um sorry one second i'm being distracted in the same time 3:43:58 that's fine that happens to me all the time i guess we'll go to pseudonym next after this person 3:44:03 gets there hopefully they get their final question and i guess we'll just go to pseudonym now and 3:44:08 then he'll have time to hello pseudonym 3:44:19 hey hello how are you doing 3:44:23 very well can you hear me so um hi paul so it's a question for you um i heard you say in the past 3:44:32 that like miners would kind of only go for the largest fee that that's on the sidechain 3:44:38 for the which block to include and my question is like how does a user of the sidechain like 3:44:47 quantify the fan the finality of its transaction if it doesn't know whether the miner is validating 3:44:55 what the the hash that they include on the their block yeah they will know this is uh yes this is 3:45:04 a question about emerged mining uh which is different from deposits and withdrawals and 3:45:09 this is also different from BIP300 because it's unrelated it's related to BIP301 which is the 3:45:16 other part but BIP301 is uh is a little bit tamer because vanilla merged mining was already 3:45:24 invented by satoshi many years ago and it's been in continuous use 3:45:33 i lost you 3:45:48 can you repeat yeah sorry about that so i will repeat that now about i'll just answer your 3:45:54 question so the uh you don't the user doesn't need to know whether or not they're the user 3:46:02 will measure finality with confirmations so it's exactly the same as with it won't be exactly the 3:46:10 same but it's the same principle as with l1 where you broadcast the transaction to be unconfirmed 3:46:16 when a sidechain block is found it is found with is found linked to an equivalent 3:46:23 main chain block so they all have the same time stamp and then it moves on to the next block so 3:46:29 you will still have confirmations and you can still have you could have reorgs or you could 3:46:35 have and you could have people who have various levels of paranoia requiring yeah if you buy 3:46:42 something from amazon it doesn't really need confirmations because amazon can always cancel 3:46:47 the order but if you're buying something from bid refill if you buy like a gift card 3:46:52 they kind of need to be a little more paranoid so they um uh because what i see is that the miner 3:47:01 is not gonna like and on main chain like um if if a miner create an invalid block 3:47:12 uh he won't get his build his block built on top so he will lose the reward but yeah 3:47:20 with the Drivechain component of it if the next miner is not validating 3:47:26 and just paying the highest fee i'm a bit i'm a bit confused like uh do you expect most miner 3:47:33 to validate the the sidechain too or uh no i think well i think when the node car the side 3:47:44 chain node cost is very low it would be a moot point because it'd be so cheap that it won't 3:47:49 matter and probably at that point probably many will run both uh my view though is that the 3:47:58 BIP301 it doesn't require the layer one miners to do any of that validation so 3:48:06 because someone someone bids a high fee uh only the top bid is selected and then that finds the 3:48:15 that finds like if you have like main chain block 700,000 and then sidechain block 501 3:48:22 you find 700,001 and even main and sidechain block 502 you know they found is like a little 3:48:26 pair found together and so there is no sense in which anyone is unclear about how many confirmations 3:48:38 they have everyone knows how many they have it's all publicly available information 3:48:46 so it's very i don't you seem to be trying to describe a situation where i would be 3:48:52 on a sidechain and i would broadcast the transaction and someone wouldn't know 3:48:59 they wouldn't know like uh is this confirmed yet but you just wait you just wait for six 3:49:05 confirmations or you wait for 10 confirmations or you wait for 100 confirmations you wait a whole 3:49:10 day or you say you know what i'm i refuse to i mean i refuse to wait i'll take the risk 3:49:20 i'll wait for one confirmation or even zero confirmations yeah but do you basically wait 3:49:27 as many confirmation as you need to know that the my there's at least one miner that validated the 3:49:34 sidechain no that's not uh relevant because the nodes it's the sidechain full nodes that are 3:49:40 that are validating the each block it's only thing that is what the what is the equivalent 3:49:47 of the meeting the difficulty requirement in l2 so on l1 you have to make sure that the 3:49:55 enough proof of work was done so on l1 you have the hashing you have 80 block headers 3:50:01 they need to have a certain number of leading zeros 3:50:04 in the bits which means the number has to be beneath a certain value so that's how it works in 3:50:11 l1 to know whether or not the the header has met the proof of work requirement so you have to make 3:50:19 like a little grid you can make like a little grid and you draw the four grid of four things 3:50:24 you say are we meeting the proof of work requirement 3:50:28 and then you say are we validating every validated the block 3:50:34 those are the columns and then the row would be you have l1 and l2 so you have a little grid there 3:50:42 so with l1 you the miners are doing the thermodynamic hashing on the 80 byte header 3:50:48 that's if you meet the proof of work and then you download the whole block and validate it 3:50:53 make sure that it is following all the rules that's the same on l2 someone has on l2 the l2 3:51:00 nodes will be downloading the whole block and validating it so but that's separate from what 3:51:07 does it mean that the next block has been found what does it mean that the next block has met 3:51:12 that the next block has met the proof of work requirement and what does it mean is that is just 3:51:21 if if there's a certain like link placed in l1 like a linking transaction like a little linking code 3:51:31 and uh that that mere act by itself of like bidding for the bidding for inclusion in l1 3:51:39 and then being included in l1 having this one little transaction be included 3:51:43 that thing that is what makes the sidechain header meet 3:51:53 whatever with this thing that is equivalent to the proof of work but is there's no thermodynamic 3:51:57 work though in bib 301 so i hope that wasn't too confusing and convoluted 3:52:04 sir no it's just that let's say i'm a user and i'm transacting on a on a sidechain that has 3:52:12 very little transaction activity and i'm transacting like a million dollar with 3:52:18 uh like that that requires finality yeah a million dollar with a tvp and like yeah you would want to 3:52:24 wait for many many confirmations in that scenario the sidechain is always the whole health of the 3:52:30 the whole Drivechain thing is based on getting these fees so if it doesn't get that then 3:52:35 it's probably not going to work but of course neither will probably nothing will work if 3:52:39 everything requires some amount of popularity to work but but yeah that is the 3:52:46 that is the concern but you can always mitigate that concern by just 3:52:50 waiting for more confirmation so you can so that's a lot that's basically my question is 3:52:57 how do you know how long to wait because on bitcoin it's kind of pretty clear it's the 3:53:02 amount of electricity and that will spend in 10 minutes well okay but this is a kind of a mix 3:53:10 because it's impossible with bib 301 it may be cheap to re like it may cost nothing to reorg 3:53:20 but it does still take 10 minutes per sidechain reorg so but with the but what you would do is 3:53:27 the end the end the analogy would be to sum up the total amount of fees paid like the total 3:53:33 coinbase amount across all the blocks that have built on top of your block or in including the 3:53:42 one that you are in because that's how much money other people will lose if it is reorged 3:53:51 so those are the people who would want to stop it from reorging my personal point of view is that it 3:53:59 would probably i mean what do you the scenario is something like it costs 10 cents to each 3:54:09 sidechain block only pays 10 cents in fees so you waited for 300 but it's that's only 10 cents so 3:54:17 that's if you wait for 300 blocks but it's only 30 but you understand they don't they don't bid 3:54:24 it's what it does not it's not as though someone can bid 31 and reorg the whole sidechain 3:54:30 you understand what they have to do is they have to they have to now bid 3:54:34 11 cents for 301 blocks in a row 301 l1 blocks so they still can only do 3:54:43 one 10 minute block per thing uh per um it's one 10 minute block on l1 to find a new l2 block so 3:54:56 each l2 block requires 10 minutes of of time this is linked to l1 block so you still have the time 3:55:06 part but it doesn't really cost anything because to reorg you won't have it won't be very economically 3:55:13 significant to do that reorg i don't know if this is making any sense i hope it's making some sense 3:55:20 it's not 100 but i think you can at least remove the the block subsidy on on layer one 3:55:29 is increasing security and it's not as much on the sidechain that's true yes of course 3:55:36 the sidechain has no block subsidy and it is it's a disadvantage yeah and not many people are like 3:55:44 thinking like that they always assume this is a base of uh let's say two uh two like i don't know 3:55:50 what was the reward let's say 3.25 bitcoin worth of electricity wasted between each 10 minute 3:55:58 and in that case you would have kind of monitored the sidechain activity to know 3:56:05 like am i uh is my transaction too big for the security budget on that sidechain 3:56:11 right yeah i mean uh the yes well just it just seems hard to explain because people are used to 3:56:22 a higher level of security on layer one and uh yeah yes of course kind of like it's insane 3:56:30 amount of security on on layer one once you have one or two transformation but 3:56:34 absolutely on the on the Drivechain you have to kind of like 3:56:39 to to weigh your the weight of your transaction versus the 3:56:46 all the other activities you do yeah but you know the thing is we don't really have 3:56:51 any like we don't have reorgs on l1 and even these even these chains that have like 3:56:58 like even something like bitcoin sv or something they're really there have been a few 51 percent 3:57:03 attacks but there really are not on a given day like you know what i mean like would you actually 3:57:09 bet if someone makes a bitcoin sv transaction you could kind of like and you were going to like buy 3:57:18 insurance on it or sell some insurance on it or something you're going to say like well what are 3:57:21 the odds that it what are the odds that this is actually fine with just one confirmation 3:57:27 yeah in practice it kind of doesn't seem to be an issue now but you know if it is then 3:57:34 people will wait for more confirmations and they will tend to only use sidechains that have lots 3:57:41 and lots of other users on them paying fees or this whole idea will collapse and not work but 3:57:48 that's really true of everything you know it's a similar thing with a sort of something similar 3:57:52 is happening in lightning now i think where people are increasing the fees have been going up and up 3:58:00 um to compensate people for running uh nodes and things um i thought i saw 3:58:09 didn't i see alex bosworth tweeting about that yesterday maybe i didn't i don't know 3:58:14 anyway me hi again hello 3:58:18 well thanks for my answer it's i will keep thinking about it thanks a lot bye 3:58:34 yeah i gave you the phone you had something more to add yeah yeah sorry um 3:58:41 yeah sorry um i'm doing different things uh sorry about that um i do have another question about the 3:58:48 compression rate of a few months in 32 kilobytes in comparison to what the layer one provides and 3:58:56 the other question also i'm sorry i did just as i said from the conversation that i previously had 3:59:03 in another space i was more confused more than anything uh i'm assuming that i'm paying some 3:59:08 fees when i'm transacting over here who am i paying those fees to and how are them fees being 3:59:16 set up because on layer one i know why i'm i'm paying those fees for example sorry actually 3:59:25 exactly the same more or less uh what happens is there's a sidechain l2 has its own block space 3:59:35 and people are trying to optimize their the when you pay a fee there it goes to a coin 3:59:42 based transaction on l2 so whoever finds the l2 block the Drivechain block so if you're 3:59:51 in whatever some different sidechain you're trying to find the block and whoever finds 3:59:57 it will pay themselves the transaction fee is exactly like with bitcoin the issue is as i just 4:00:04 explained or tried to explain whether or not a sidechain block meets its proof of work requirement 4:00:10 is defined by something that happens on l1 if you use merge mining which i think everyone will so 4:00:20 uh if since that's the case it's the l1 miners who really will 4:00:25 they are the gatekeepers and they as a result they will extract 99.99 of this this value so 4:00:32 they will either it will either be them who has the l2 coinbase key that gets paid the l2 coins 4:00:40 or in the case of Blind Merged Mining there is a possibility of specialization 4:00:45 of labor where someone runs a sidechain node they pay themselves the coinbase 4:00:52 you pay themselves the fee revenue to the coinbase and in return for finding that block 4:01:00 they they broadcast a message on l1 and they say please include this find this this is the block 4:01:08 i want you to find it has this hash if you find it i will pay you on l1 this amount 4:01:16 this amount so ultimately all money goes to the miners and um but how it gets there 4:01:25 is depends on whether or not the miners want to run a sidechain node if they do 4:01:29 then they can collect it over there if they don't then they can collect on l1 4:01:35 but what literally happens on the Drivechain is that it has its own blocks and it has its 4:01:41 own fees and those fees are all paid to in the coinbase transaction just like in bitcoin 4:01:46 it's paid in the first transaction and it is paid to whoever finds the block it can be paid to anyone 4:01:54 so so everyone pays them to themselves and they all compete to try to find the block 4:01:59 so i hope that makes some sense 4:02:01 kinda uh i i'm not sure if this will give the opportunity for any bad actor to give this set 4:02:09 of rules to someone else and maybe get scammed you did explain this earlier through as i said 4:02:18 choosing a certain model of security 4:02:21 well this this part is unrelated to what is happening on the chain you know what i mean 4:02:29 like this is just saying uh there's only a certain amount of block space no matter what happens on the 4:02:38 uh there's only a certain amount of block space no matter what happens on the like even if 4:02:47 the sidechain has no block size limit they will run out of ram on their computer so there's 4:02:55 there's some limit and that limit uh you know you have to gate who is in the block and who is not 4:03:03 and or i suppose you could try to just append every single transaction you could but if nothing 4:03:12 pays any fee you see i have like any con like an economic uh view of it basically where it's like 4:03:22 there's a demand curve for this uh service for the block space and you you either get a few 4:03:30 you either make a few sales at a high margin or you make many sales at a 4:03:34 low margin you know you charge 10 cents per transaction and you have lots of transactions 4:03:41 or you charge a 10 per transaction and you have very few transactions so people who are 4:03:50 assembling the next block they do that and they try to maximize their revenues and then after they 4:03:57 do that um they that's how they that's how they build the proto block and then as i tried to 4:04:06 explain what it is that finds the block is a payment made a code inserted in l1 coinbase 4:04:16 by the miners so it is the l1 miners who really find all the blocks even though they don't need 4:04:23 to run a node to do so i don't need to run any node really but they definitely don't need to run 4:04:29 the l2 node unfortunately i have to go i do apologize uh thank you very much for answering 4:04:39 my questions uh there was the other question in regards to the compression rate of three 4:04:44 months of data into 32 kilobytes and the reasoning behind that if this is transparent or not 4:04:53 um i will go back to listener because i'm i'm gonna drive so thank you okay great yeah the 4:05:00 all that's happening with that whole three months to 32 megabytes thing what that is referring to is 4:05:09 what basically is going on there is the sidechain is keeping track of all of the outstanding 4:05:14 activity which is the three months of activity and it's going to summarize for l1 the only parts 4:05:23 of it that are relevant to l1 which is the people who want to withdraw and it is going to queue up 4:05:28 all those withdrawals and it will then make the l2 blockchain will construct all by itself 4:05:36 the transaction that would pay all those people out and the basically some details aside 4:05:46 that the transaction id of that transaction that is the 32 bytes so it is just saying this is the 4:05:53 withdrawal that catches us up you know it says we've been running this sidechain for the last 4:05:59 five years but we had a withdrawal six months ago and then we had a withdrawal three months ago 4:06:07 and of everything that has happened between three months ago and today 4:06:11 this is the withdrawal on l1 that would that would catch us all up so 4:06:20 so the l2 node can do that freely every single person's l2 node every single person's sidechain 4:06:26 node will calculate that and they will all get exactly the same answer 4:06:31 and so that is the hash that must traverse the BIP300 process in order to release the funds 4:06:45 so yeah so this is cool we got some more questions in that was good 4:07:03 that's always great and now this is a four hours so i think it's been going pretty well 4:07:11 we've got some great names we have boat face in the audience 4:07:22 for those of you who don't know the u.s army or the navy i suppose 4:07:30 they allowed democracy to pick the name of their ship new ship and 4:07:36 new ship and just google it for what happened it's classic internet voting 4:07:45 we have a cool guy oh this guy zulu he has a very cool it's a very dramatic image 4:07:55 anyway come on up if you want to ask any questions i gotta get myself a glass of water 4:08:06 but if no one has any questions then the space will have to come to an end 4:08:25 so 4:08:33 let's see doesn't seem to be anyone so maybe i don't know it's pretty good space honestly 4:08:40 four hours is not bad 4:08:48 so maybe we should end it there i think it was a pretty good space 4:08:55 wow 4:09:26 cool okay well maybe we should end it there then. so hey thanks everyone. thank 4:09:37 you have a good evening bye bye
