0:00 Hello, this is Alex Waltz. 0:03 And this is Paul Sztorc. 0:05 And this is Bitcoin Reservations. How's it going, Paul? How are you, man? 0:08 Good. That was a very organic introduction. 0:12 Right, right. How did the quality of your existence fluctuate in the last week? 0:18 Let's see. I think most of the fluctuations were good. We had Thanksgiving, 0:25 a happy Thanksgiving to everyone, to both people who are listening. 0:35 And it's a time of expressing what you're thankful for. 0:43 And I don't know, I'm thankful. 0:46 I'm thankful for both of our listeners. 0:51 Right. Yeah. I think there's free listeners. 0:53 There's someone who texted me in private. 0:55 By the way, the feedback that I keep constantly getting was that they thought I'm 0:59 interviewing you. They didn't tell you you're the co-host. 1:03 Well, you know, I have many reservations about this show already myself. 1:08 So I have Bitcoin Reservations reservations. 1:13 I think people could pick up on that. 1:17 Right. Well, you said specifically, I'm looking for someone who doesn't need to do a 1:22 podcast. 1:24 Let's bring a bit of context. 1:26 So what ended up happening is that I really wanted to do a podcast and I've tried 1:30 doing one before and I was really pissed off that I couldn't be myself, dude. 1:34 I was doing exactly what everyone else is doing and trying to sound like everyone. 1:36 But I don't talk like everyone. 1:38 I like to talk about drugs, about hookers, about all these things. 1:41 And I feel like I was pulling back. So I said, you know what? 1:43 I need a co-host. And I wrote this creative brief, 1:46 which if people request from us, I'll share in private. 1:49 And there were some things there that I, on the requirements. 1:52 One of them was that the co-host wants to do the podcast, doesn't need to do a 1:55 podcast. And I sent it to a lot of people. 1:57 And then it got to you. 2:00 Yes. I don't know if I want to do a podcast, but I definitely don't need to do a 2:05 podcast. So maybe that was the closest you could get on that line item. 2:11 But yeah, I guess so. 2:13 They're really close to each other. 2:14 They like hate each other. 2:15 Wait, wait, wait. Should we talk about Kraken versus Blockstream now? 2:18 That's on. 2:19 Okay, let's move there. 2:20 That's on the list. Speaking of similar, 2:25 similar companies hating each other. 2:28 Are they hating each other? 2:29 I don't know. 2:30 Give a bit of context. Give a bit of context. 2:32 I don't know which. 2:34 Well, there was a long, basically Adam Back, CEO of Blockstream, 2:39 is trying to convince Liquid, excuse me, Kraken to implement their Liquid, 2:44 um, whatever you want to call it. 2:49 Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, should I call it sidechain? 2:52 And then I was like, I was actually going to say the other thing, their 2:56 custodial multi-sig wallet. And I was like, well, I can't say that. 2:59 And then I was like, should I just say sidechain? 3:00 And then I didn't know what to do. 3:02 Question. Honest question. 3:03 You don't feel it's a sidechain? 3:05 No, it clearly is not. 3:07 And Greg Maxwell doesn't feel that way either. 3:08 So that ought to be. 3:09 No, fuck Maxwell. Fuck Maxwell. 3:11 But why don't you emphasize a bit why it's not a sidechain? 3:14 It's, it was always crystal clear. 3:18 Well, first of all, the original, the original concept, 3:21 and then we can talk about definition or whatever this or that. 3:23 The sidechain idea arose as a solution to the problem of altcoins that weren't 3:28 total scams. There was an era of altcoins that were just like the, 3:33 like copy and paste Litecoin, Federalcoin that were just, 3:36 they were just copy paste. And it was just clear to every Dogecoin, 3:39 clear to everyone that they were just frivolities and they weren't, 3:43 they weren't real. They were just a nothing that you could ignore. 3:46 But then it started to be the case, 2013, 2014, 3:51 people started to have like some crazy ideas. 3:54 One early on was what was Zerocoin, which now became Zcash. 3:59 But that was also when BitShares and Ethereum were sort of starting. 4:02 I have a lot of criticism towards that also because, but anyway, sorry. 4:07 But I'm just saying, this is the problem of altcoins. Like, you know, 4:10 maybe Bitcoin's consensus rules aren't the best for everyone. 4:14 Some people might plausibly want different ones. 4:17 They might want Gasp, an altcoin. 4:22 And the block size debate was also heating up. So there was this, 4:26 this question, what do we do about altcoins? 4:31 And the answer was the sidechain. We'll have an altcoin, 4:34 but there won't be any coins there. 4:37 Who came up with the, 4:39 who can you identify that wrote first about sidechains and use those words? 4:43 This is an interesting question. I know that there was a, 4:46 there was a question of, there was first the question of the one way peg. 4:51 This was how it was originally framed. 4:56 I think this was like December, 2013. I don't have any idea. 5:01 Honestly, there was a loop junior IRC chat. 5:05 And I don't know if I want to reveal this so that people will swarm the IRC or 5:09 try to find that it was, it was logged at one point. 5:12 And I mean, if it's public, why not? 5:13 I think it was Bitcoin wizards, December, 2013. 5:17 And then it was all framed in terms of the one way peg or the two way peg. 5:22 And someone said we could do the two way peg bath with SPV mod. 5:26 Can you explain something? 5:28 That is one second. Can you explain to him very high level? 5:31 What the one peg and the two baby, just super, super high level. 5:33 Because the one peg was this idea. 5:37 You have two pieces of software. The second piece could be watching Bitcoin, 5:42 Bitcoin core, and you could do something in Bitcoin core to destroy your coins. 5:45 Counterparty actually did this. 5:47 You destroy the coins and then that software will credit you the same number of 5:51 coins they have. And then you can move them in one, 5:54 but that only works in one direction. 5:56 So the big thing was, could you do something over there? 6:00 Different consensus rules, different owners, 6:02 coins moving around and have new people say, 6:07 I want to redeem these coins one for one back on layer one. 6:11 That's like the big thing. So then they exchange at par forever. 6:16 Okay. Good. You explained the peg thing now getting back. 6:18 So the first time you could think about this being mentioned was an IRC channel. 6:22 Now, the original question that I asked you was, 6:24 what's the definition of a sidechain? 6:27 Did you actually ask me that? 6:28 I did. And then you went on to run. Anyway, let's get back to it. That's fine. 6:31 That was still relevant context. 6:32 So what's a sidechain and why are we not calling liquid a sidechain? 6:36 I have no answer, but the original sidechain concept was this answer with altcoin. 6:40 So it was originally a sidechain was a blank altcoin that you could send Bitcoin 6:44 to and receive it back from. 6:46 So the alt sidechain was supposed to be like an altcoin simulator. 6:50 It was this technology. 6:51 When you say that, 6:53 when you say that, that's a bit confusing because when you say an altcoin, 6:56 I feel like that's a different blockchain altogether, 6:58 but a sidechain is not necessarily that. Well, it kind of is, 7:01 but I think it would be its own blockchain in almost all cases. 7:06 So then the side, 7:07 so when you say side then is just because it has a pipe between it by some way 7:12 that they will be running along alongside each other. 7:15 I don't know why that word fell into it at all. Okay. So anyway, 7:19 let's get back on track right now. So, uh, by, uh, I guess, 7:24 so it was clear or it was the reason why I was thinking, 7:28 Oh, I thought you were going to say is because, uh, in, in liquid, 7:32 you can't really get in and out without any permission. Right. 7:35 So it's not like completely trustless, I guess. 7:38 So I thought that's what you're going to say. 7:39 And that's why you don't want to consider it a sidechain or something like that. 7:42 And it's just, that's not why I don't consider it a sidechain at all. Okay. 7:45 But it is custodial and that makes it sort of meaningless because everything in 7:49 Bitcoin that's custodial is like a shadow version of what it should be. 7:55 I don't know. Okay. Let's get back to the tweet right now. 7:57 So Adam Bag, the CEO of Blockstream, who has a sidechain. 8:02 Yeah, they wait, they worked on this thing called liquid. 8:04 It was always supposed to be like a temporary slap together thing. 8:08 It's like if you were going to go to the moon and you decided to test it 8:12 underwater, the space shuttle underwater first on earth, 8:17 which like they did, they trained the astronauts in like, 8:20 in like the G force or simulator room or whatever, you know, 8:24 that the giant centrifuge and then the giant swimming pool or something. 8:28 So, and then this is like, if instead of going to the moon, 8:31 they just stayed in the swimming pool and said, okay, 8:35 now we are an actual space company and this is our spaceship. 8:41 So that's why I think it's just ridiculous because it was always supposed to be 8:43 like a slap together cosmetic thing that would only appear to be 8:48 a sidechain. And then they got, they really derailed completely. 8:52 And they started saying, Oh, this can replace ICOs. 8:55 This can replace Ethereum's can do everything. 8:57 And this is full blown, 8:59 like completely derailed from what it was originally supposed to be, 9:02 which was just liquid was just supposed to be this slap together thing that had 9:05 all the, all the custodians would just be exchanges. 9:08 So instead of just trusting one exchange with your coins, you would now trust, 9:13 you know, M of N. And so the trust model wouldn't be that different. 9:17 You were only going to move the coins from one exchange to another. 9:19 Now it's like turned into this like full blown thing that is still fully 9:23 custodial. The custodians are still anonymous. We don't know who they are. 9:27 As far as we know, 9:27 it's just 15 private keys generated by Greg Maxwell's laptop 9:33 that he says belong to other people. There's no, 9:37 none of this is auditable or transparent or a lot of it, 9:40 some of it isn't even open source. So the whole thing is like a giant farce. 9:44 Anyway, what about the tweet? What does it, what does it have to do with the 9:47 fucking tweets? So the tweet is so funny. 9:49 It's an awful company. Say what he fucking did. 9:53 You have to say what has happened in the tweet. 9:54 No, but he was basically begging, you know, he's arguing strenuously. 10:00 So Adam Beck, the cypherpunk is going Kraken, please, please, please, 10:05 please can take my integrated liquid. Is that what he was doing? 10:09 Do you really think that that's, you've never heard Adam Beck speak before? 10:11 You think that's the accent? He has like a, he has like a British accent. 10:15 I know. I know. I've heard him. I've heard him. 10:16 I talked with him once at a conference, like for 10 minutes or something. 10:19 So I used to be, 10:20 I'm so sorry that he did that because I used to be able to do, 10:23 I was doing impressions of people and I have a decent Adam Beck, but I can't, 10:27 I can't do it now. I have to concentrate. 10:29 Anyway, anyway, getting back on track, getting back on track. 10:32 So he's begging them and what's happening. So he's begging these guys. 10:35 It's just, it's funny cause they're like, well, you know, it's not really a big deal. 10:39 It's not really, it's not really a priority for them. 10:43 He's, and Adam was framing it as being really good for Bitcoin. 10:47 But the really funny part of the whole exchange is that eventually Pierre 10:51 Rochard, what does he say? Should we just read it? I don't, I don't, 10:55 we don't have it. 10:56 I like, I like at some point something. Take care of your own business. 11:00 He says that. 11:01 Well, he says that, which is, yeah, that, that might be the best actual part, 11:04 but he says something like you're in a, 11:06 your enterprise sales strategy is as innovative as the products 11:11 you're selling or something. But let's look it up. 11:15 So we can just read it. 11:17 Anyway, you know what, regarding your earlier criticism about the lighting, 11:22 sorry about liquid derailing. I don't think that's something bad. 11:26 I think that's them being smart and being able to transform that in a product 11:30 that caught on and people are using. 11:32 And I don't think you need to have this purist view of what things should be 11:36 when you build them. 11:37 See, that's the point is it's not, no, no. What? How can you even say that? 11:41 This point is not to have a purist view. 11:43 The point is the original problem is unsolved. 11:46 So they're not actually on the moon. They're just a stupid swimming pool. 11:49 I need to get to the moon. I need to get there. 11:53 Then you, why don't you get to the moon? 11:54 I am doing it. That's why I'm doing the drive to me. 11:57 So I don't know why I was even asked, 11:58 but I just think it's stupid that all these people actually think that this is a 12:02 space exploration company and they, they just explicitly gave up on that. 12:08 I know it was the same thing we talked about last time with a lightning. 12:10 Is this the tweet is your enterprise sales strategy is as innovative as the 12:15 technology you're selling. 12:18 Mic drop. 12:19 Yeah. Mic drop. Yeah, basically. 12:21 And then we have all kinds of other stuff and people are saying that, you know, 12:25 um, that this is, 12:27 this technology is good for Bitcoin and good for Bitcoin errors. 12:31 Then an Adam back really then people on, um, 12:34 the large blocker world got, got ahold of something. He said, 12:38 at some point he said something like, um, 12:41 we're going to need this to offload transactions because fees might go up soon. 12:44 And then all the, you know, all the, the Bitcoin cash people, et cetera, 12:49 like, Oh, he cares about fees now. 12:54 Well, you know, I want to, I want to address something. 12:58 You, you have a bit more tangents chandins with the big block world than I do. 13:03 I just want to put that out there. I don't want you that, that hated. 13:05 I'm okay with shitting on people, but I don't want to be like, you know, 13:08 all right. The way the unacceptable thing is to talk about them at all. 13:12 You have to pretend they don't exist. 13:15 It's just that you give them too much merit. Like, like even like how you quoted 13:19 them. Like I would never quote someone on the street. 13:21 That's like a bomb and doing heroin. Right. It's like, I wouldn't even quote him, 13:25 but, but you're quoting them. So you're giving them importance. 13:27 Just want to, I just want to address that. 13:29 Well, we're just quoting, we're just quoting Pierre Richard and Adam Beck. 13:33 Yeah. But you say the big block world, I'm just, you're, 13:36 I'm just trying to say you're making them legitimate. All right. 13:39 I'm just trying to put it out there. 13:41 I don't understand why there, 13:44 I think the hatred of the large blockers is more than 50%. 13:50 Um, 13:52 like a vicious scapegoating and bigotry. 13:56 They don't really understand what they're saying when they say that. And in fact, 13:59 you were criticizing Roger Ver last time. 14:02 Everyone who criticizes Roger Ver I think is just new. 14:05 That's what I think because there was no very brief time ago, 14:09 2015 everyone was friends with each other, 14:14 including most people being friends with Roger Ver. 14:16 And so when then it's only this new thing started about like, Oh, everyone, 14:21 these people are horrible people and you should never talk about them. 14:24 And so when people jump right into that and they say, Oh yeah, 14:29 XYZ, these people are fake people or we shouldn't talk about the large 14:34 blockers or the big block world. I just think that person is new. 14:38 That's all I think it may have. And I don't say it in a disrespectful way. 14:41 I just think this person just doesn't know any better because they got here in 14:45 2017. 14:45 Well, let me tell you why that's not actually completely true. 14:48 And I've been here way before 2017. 14:53 I'm just letting you know that that's like what I hear. 14:56 Okay. Let me, let me, let me articulate it very clearly. All right. 14:59 The problem with Roger Ver, which again, 15:02 I'm not saying like he didn't do any good things or something like that, 15:04 is that there are certain things that he's super disingenuous about. Now he, 15:08 there's some things I'm sure he's just ignoring about as anyone is about certain 15:12 things, but there's certain things which is so obvious and he's blatantly lying 15:16 about. Right. And that's, that's why people hate him. 15:19 Now I don't think he should be hated for everything. 15:21 I don't think he's an awful human being. I don't fuck, you know, 15:23 I didn't meet the guy. I don't want to like put down whatever he did. 15:26 I'm really sure he has the most honest intentions. I'm sorry. 15:30 I'm sure he has some honest intentions, 15:32 but some of his intentions are just bad. 15:35 Like they're just like the thing that he robs is like, yeah, they're like that. 15:39 And it's obvious. 15:42 I mean, 15:43 we can just go on his Twitter and see all the things that he's lying about. 15:45 Like he's blatantly lying, but that's why people started hating him. 15:49 And yes, 15:51 the one big lie is the attempt to frame Bitcoin cash as the real Bitcoin, 15:59 which he takes on, but that takes on such a desperate character. So, 16:03 so rapidly that I don't, I don't even see it as that menacing. 16:07 No, it's not about being menacing. 16:09 It's not like the effects are very bad because he's doing it very, 16:11 he's not very tactful. He's not doing it very well. 16:14 But the problem that I'm trying to say, 16:15 what is the, what is the, what are, what are like lies? 16:19 Everything regarding that and Ryan, 16:21 like how he started lying and the way he uses the name and always trying to make 16:24 it, it's like, you know, 16:25 like when there's someone on the street stopping and he's like trying to put a 16:28 breast on your hand, so you'll leave with it. And it's like, why are you doing that? 16:31 Like, I am just pissed off if you do that. I don't like disingenuous people. 16:34 So if he would be more like, 16:37 I don't like Charlie Lee also and what the fuck he's doing with his toy fucking 16:40 project. Right. But at least he's not like trying to, 16:45 he's disingenuous in other ways, but he's not about it. 16:47 That's why I don't like Roger. 16:49 And that's why I think that's a big thing that he's disingenuous about. 16:51 And he's being called out about it and he's acting really weird. 16:54 And that's why, I mean, I would think there'd be a lot of, 16:59 you would think that he would want to say something like, 17:02 especially at this point, you want to say something like, well, you know, 17:06 to people you'd want to say, well, look right now, this isn't, 17:08 this is considered a big underdog project. 17:12 And this is considered like a fringe position, but, you know, 17:16 talking about BCH and it's like, 17:19 you would think like that would be like the sell. Like, but if you join now, 17:23 you can get in on the ground floor really cheap, 17:25 but to something that may have a great destiny or something. But yeah, 17:30 I said, he's just kind of repressed to say that this one is the real Bitcoin, 17:35 which is a very. 17:36 There's no argument there. There's no technical argument. 17:38 There's just a lot of imbecility. And like, literally I could probably, 17:42 if I would take charge of that project, 17:43 I could make better engineering decisions on it. And I'm a fucking imbecile. 17:46 Well, yeah. And I can't, I can't stand the engineering. 17:49 I can't stand the decisions made and with respect to Bitcoin Cash, 17:54 the decision to like launch it in August. And then whilst I go to X, 17:58 so this, 17:59 that seems like just asking for failure of the hard fork 18:03 transition and then just like randomly moving to it in November. 18:08 And then why are there so many? The last time I checked, 18:10 there were over five and a half thousand. This was a long time ago. 18:13 There were over like five and a half thousand commits, 18:17 like different between Bitcoin ABC and Bitcoin Core. 18:23 And I was just like, why this should be like two, you know, 18:26 it should just be this exact same code with like a little patch that, 18:29 that just patches the block size and SIGOPs and the hard fork 18:34 gate. And that then, then they would never have been reliant 18:40 on Omri or any of these other people that would have skipped all kinds of 18:43 problems. So they made all kinds of absurd mistakes. 18:47 Yeah. Because that's a, that's a fucking joke of a fucking project. 18:50 That is it's even worse than you think. 18:51 They didn't take the problem of hard forks seriously enough. 18:57 I don't think they understand what the fuck they're doing. I think, by the way, 19:00 there's like quite a big community of Bitcoin Cash in London, 19:04 which I've been to some of those meetups. These people are clueless, son, 19:08 clueless. They don't know how to, they don't know how to use a fucking computer. 19:12 They're fucking imbeciles. Like, look, and you know what? I don't care. 19:16 What do you think? That's the fucking truth. 19:17 So that's why every time I hear that, I really feel the need to, you know, 19:20 to like just destroy it with a finger because that's what it is. 19:24 That's healthy. I mean, I just say to everyone who's listening, 19:26 I think it is fun. I've been to all kinds of, 19:29 you would never even believe it at all kinds of different, 19:32 especially when I was in San Francisco, I'd go to all kinds of different meetups, 19:35 like Bitcoin SV meetups and all these other meetups. 19:39 I'm not surprised. 19:40 Yeah. It's really something. 19:42 And if most of the time you do leave thinking like you go and you're kind of 19:47 like, this seems like a terrible idea, but let me just see what they have to say. 19:52 And you, you know, 19:52 like you almost always leave thinking like those are the craziest fucking people 19:56 in the universe and they are doomed. 19:59 I mean, you know, 20:00 like there's these people who believe in the law of attraction in some weird 20:03 ways. You know what I'm trying to say? 20:04 I've heard of it. Yes. 20:06 Yeah. And there's like a group, 20:07 I've happened to stumble upon groups of people like this. 20:10 And the thing is like the weird part about it is because it kind of gives them 20:15 some purpose and you've kind of like pushed them in that direction. 20:17 So that's why they feel that that's working, 20:19 but it's not like thinking about stuff works. It's doing stuff works. Right. 20:22 Anyway. But the point is like, they, they, they, they, 20:26 they live in this weird world and they have this biases and they're just so 20:29 detached from reality. And it's like, what can you do with these people? 20:32 Like you can't talk about anything with them. 20:33 They're always going to shift it to this whole thing they have here. Right. 20:36 And that's what happens with this Bitcoin cash people. They're like, 20:39 they're very, 20:41 they, I think it's very factual to say that the average IQ there is below a 20:46 hundred. Like I'm serious. 20:47 Oh, come on. That's not true. 20:49 All the big corners are already like way onto the extreme. 20:52 And then there's all this other stuff. You have any idea like how low this, 20:56 I think once you get to 70, 20:58 the you'd be shocked at the actual range. 21:01 They have like examples of like the vocabulary of someone who would score like 21:05 70 or something. 21:06 They like had trouble using the word summer in two different sentences or 21:11 something. 21:11 Exactly. So you're proving my point. It's underneath. It's below a hundred. 21:15 The people that don't fucking shit. Anyway, fuck the Bitcoin cash people. 21:19 I don't, I don't even know. 21:20 They're there the way. 21:21 Are there any bullet points that we may have to purge if you don't remember? 21:26 This was the one with the stupid liquid integration. 21:29 I quote it from somewhere on the Twitter. 21:33 Oh yes. Yeah. 21:35 You have really great phrases in the bullet points there. 21:39 I didn't show how accurate they are, but trying to, you're trying to say, 21:42 I added that bullet point. That's what I'm trying to say right now. 21:44 I don't remember writing these phrases. 21:48 I don't think I, I said, 21:52 I said, it's a bullet point. 21:54 I just don't think I'm the one who has a chip on his shoulders when he comes to 21:57 fucking sidechains, just putting it out there. Okay. 22:00 And not that there's anyone here in this conversation having that. 22:03 So I don't know who wrote it. 22:05 Um, well I know I definitely said add this to the list. 22:10 Yeah. 22:12 Anyway, anyway, did I like pitch the battle on the stupid liquid integration? 22:15 Did I actually write that? And I saw it was black. I'm drunk. 22:19 I don't know. It doesn't seem like a phrase I would use. 22:21 I don't know. Where were you? 22:22 If I would have wrote that and I want it to be disrespectful, 22:25 I would have done it like way more. Like I would have been stupid. 22:27 I would have been more. So that's how I know it's not me. Anyway. So, um, 22:31 where were you drunk? 22:33 Well, I know I've been so many times this week. We had Thanksgiving. 22:37 So what did you like? Where did you just start? Yeah. Oh yeah. 22:41 So you went home. 22:43 No, I have a other family that lived here in the great state of Florida when I 22:47 was with them. 22:48 Oh, I see. I see. So what do you guys do a little closer? 22:51 Well, do you know how much you know about Thanksgiving? 22:54 I know you guys killed some people and it wasn't nice and they're celebrating 22:58 like assholes. 22:58 Yes. Yes. 23:01 Theoretically it's a celebration of friendship between native Americans and 23:05 pilgrims who are arriving from England because they had a 23:10 feast together because native Americans taught us how to grow 23:14 corn or something. I don't really know what the actual, um, 23:19 you know, how much of that is true. Probably none of it, but, um, 23:24 yeah. So you're supposed to, 23:25 on Thanksgiving it's considered extremely improper to do any work 23:30 on Thanksgiving. 23:31 Even the most workaholic people should not work. 23:35 And then you go and visit your family, 23:37 including people that you don't see very often. So often it's very stressful. 23:42 And everyone tries very hard not to talk about politics and mostly does a good 23:46 job because that is not polite to talk about. 23:50 And then everyone in the, Oh, the big deal with Thanksgiving though, 23:53 is that the hosts and especially women, you know, 23:57 this is just, just, just saying what it is, um, 24:01 that they're supposed to like spend like the whole day, 24:03 like cooking all kinds of things, especially, 24:05 especially Turkey and other things. 24:09 There are other things. 24:10 That sounds awful what you're describing there. Look, I had, 24:13 I had his girlfriend at some point, right? And she's telling me, 24:16 we have to go and hang out with my family. And then, and I'm like, okay, sure. 24:20 I didn't mind that by the way. 24:21 I was getting sometimes really awfully weird with her friends, but she's like, 24:25 but there's this aunt that I don't want to see, but we have to go. So I'm like, 24:29 why the fuck are we going? If you don't want to see the end, 24:32 because you have to, 24:32 and we got in a big fight because then what bothered me was that she wanted to 24:36 do something she doesn't want. 24:38 Well, you know, I can unpack that for you a little bit because it's like 24:43 insurance, you know, you pay the premiums, 24:47 you don't want to pay the insurance premiums. You'd rather just have money. 24:50 But you know, your family is there for you. If something bad happens and, 24:54 you know, we'll all be, not everyone is the most likable all the time. 24:59 And so this is like a thing that is a more stable kind of fitted relationship. 25:02 I don't think that's a dynamic that's happening there. 25:03 I think there are a lot of people who have like very specific family members who they 25:07 are close with. And with these ones, they always pick the time. 25:10 I think what's happening is people don't want to be seen as not being okay with some 25:15 parts of their families, which everyone is. 25:16 No one likes all the members. 25:18 So what, it's not a hedge for that, it's just a fear of being seen as not being okay 25:24 for that. It's just a fear of being seen as something else. 25:27 And it's a fear of confronting things you don't like. 25:29 I think that's why it's different. 25:32 I think it's like, if you are going to see, you know, you're going to see them every 25:35 year. This is like an incentive for you to be friendlier to them and like make peace 25:41 with them. 25:42 That doesn't make sense to me. 25:43 It's very simple. Like the people who I want to see, I see them, like if I wanted 25:47 to see someone every day, I would make an effort to see them. 25:48 Repeated interactions help you to know that you will be interacting with them. 25:56 Again, it doesn't make sense to me. 25:58 What makes sense to me is like the people who you want to spend time with, you already 26:01 spend time with, right? I don't like, again, this fakeness thing and I don't, I don't 26:05 understand why people do these things. 26:06 It just blows my mind. 26:06 Yeah, but it's only, it's not, you know, it's only once a year. 26:09 It's only just a little dose because sometimes people need, they need to get like back on 26:13 their feet. They have, maybe if someone has no friends, how do you make your first 26:16 friend? You know, you got to start with your family and like move on and move it up. 26:21 I'm not, I'm not, that's why I say it's like insurance. 26:25 Yeah. I mean, look, family has a lot of merit. 26:27 All right. And you should go, go and hang out with your family. 26:30 What I'm trying to say is that if you don't like someone on this, like if there's 26:34 someone on the street that jerks off while you walk by, you're not going to forcibly 26:37 make friends with him because you have to. 26:38 It's like a person jerks off on the street, that's awful, right? 26:41 So why the fuck do you do this with other people just because they share more DNA 26:44 with you? That's, that's very stupid. 26:46 You know what I'm trying to say? 26:47 No, because it's, um, it's, uh, it closes the loop. 26:52 Like if you come from DNA that wants to do that, then you'll want to do it yourself. 26:57 You'll benefit from it and you'll also want to feel compelled to do it. 27:01 So I think that's, that's theoretical. 27:03 I think like, again, I think a lot of these family gatherings, a lot of the time they're 27:07 just to be there. They're not like organic. 27:09 They're not like everyone needs to be there. 27:11 And I think overall, I think like it's, a lot of people do find it to be a chore and 27:16 there's a complicated thing that some people complain about a lot, you know, 27:20 comedians, comedians complain about it. 27:23 Um, they're always onto something, right? 27:27 But, um, I think it's also like, it's good if you have too much of a routine. 27:33 Um, shake things up, interact with a different group of people, see how you do, see 27:39 what's new with people. 27:41 Um, yeah. 27:42 And also people like often take photos, family photos, things at that time. 27:45 You can have an excuse. 27:46 They do that for Christmas. 27:47 My specific thing is their reasoning behind it. 27:49 My specific thing is like, if you, there's something in your heart that says, I'm not 27:53 happy to walk through that door right now. 27:55 Okay. 27:56 Well, sometimes people just kind of, when they walk through the door anyway, it's kind 28:01 of like, maybe they weren't really being honest with themselves about. 28:04 I don't think that's what's happening. 28:06 Do you think so? 28:06 Do you really think some people are like, they dread this so much. 28:09 It's like going to the dentist or being tortured or something. 28:12 I'm going to do it anyway. 28:14 And I think what ends up happening at the end of the day, they fucking hated it there. 28:18 They had some opportunities cost or something and some things they would have 28:21 rather done. 28:22 And then at the end they tried to like change it and be like, Oh, actually I ended 28:26 up having a nice conversation with the uncle. 28:28 Why? 28:28 No, you didn't. 28:29 You're just trying to make yourself feel better. 28:31 It's like the same thing when you've got a new pair of shoes and you know, you 28:33 shouldn't have bought them, but you can't return them. 28:35 So now you're like, Oh, well I was going to start running anyway. 28:37 Right. 28:38 I think that's what's happening most of the time. 28:40 Exactly. 28:41 But it's a reverse sour grapes pretty much. 28:43 Well, yeah, but it's the same concept. 28:45 Yeah. 28:45 But, um, the, so that's how I feel about all these things. 28:49 And I know this, but a lot of people, maybe, I don't know, maybe my family is 28:51 just super great. 28:52 I mean, we always just get drunk and have a good time. 28:55 Yeah. 28:55 I wasn't trying to talk about your family. 28:56 And again, I'm not saying like, you've been so, yeah, but you're right though, 28:59 that people would tend to lie about how great the Thanksgiving was just out of a 29:03 desire not to insult the family also. 29:05 So you'll never really know for sure. 29:08 Yeah. 29:08 I guess if who was having the Thanksgiving, if anyone. 29:12 Well, there you go. 29:13 You know, and I'm not trying to say like, there are, maybe there are moments 29:15 there that are good or something. 29:17 I'm not trying to put that down. 29:18 I'm sure they are. 29:19 It's like just people, right. 29:20 We're together. 29:21 It's, it's nice to be around with people most of the time. 29:23 Uh, but, um, you know, I, I think there's a lot of disingenuous going on. 29:28 And I think that, I think it is just this weird facade of like, the reason we all 29:33 are together here is because we're supposed to be really honest with each 29:35 other and care about each other. 29:37 But somehow there's this facade we have to put on. 29:40 It's so contradictory. 29:41 Like it just boggles my brain, you know? 29:43 Well, you know, sometimes people could do things. 29:45 We were talking, I was talking about, we were talking about last time about 29:48 culture, just making you do things and maybe not in your best interest, but 29:52 maybe being in your best interest, you were saying like, Oh, and I was agreeing. 29:57 You don't know these traditions. 29:59 Maybe they have some really important thing and life would be much 30:01 worse if you took them out. 30:04 So I don't know. 30:06 Yeah. 30:06 So this is a Thanksgiving, like tradition. 30:08 So it's like, I'm just, this is like, it is what it is. 30:10 It's, it's relatively harmless. 30:13 It is only once a year, so. 30:15 Well, that's the thing. 30:15 I don't know. 30:16 I, I guess the disagreement is like, I think it's more harmful and it makes you 30:19 feel, I don't know, maybe you just have this bad experience or something. 30:23 I don't know. 30:24 I don't think I've had bad experiences because I, uh, I, first of all, I've 30:28 never been to Thanksgiving dinner because I was never in the U S when this was 30:31 happening. 30:32 Um, but I, I, I just saw a lot of people who, you know, I think the worst thing 30:37 you can do for yourself as a human being is bottle things up inside. 30:40 I think that's the worst thing, the worst. 30:43 And I think every little tiny thing I, as far as I'm concerned, but in every 30:47 little tiny thing you bottle up in your site, even if you're, you didn't like 30:50 your sucks today, even if you didn't like how your girlfriend looked at you, even 30:54 if you didn't like, like all these things, I think they're going to end up like, 30:57 like, like fucking you over somehow. 30:59 Right. 30:59 And you don't see. 31:00 And I think every little, whenever there's an instance, you have to bottle up things 31:05 and you can't, like, if you, if you have to go somewhere, you can't fart. 31:07 Right. 31:08 Metaphorically, that's going to hurt you really bad if you do that a lot. 31:12 And you, and, and I, well, it's a metaphor. 31:15 I don't know. 31:16 So I think 31:20 right. 31:21 Anyway, the point is that I think when there's an environment where you can't, 31:25 where you have to keep things in, I think that's the worst thing I could do for 31:29 you as an individual and as you are a human being. 31:31 Right. 31:32 And I'm not saying like all family gatherings are like that. 31:35 I don't think all families are like that. 31:36 I'm sure enough, but it really feels like this holiday type things. 31:39 They really have a good premise for that. 31:41 And I'm just saying like, why would you, why do you do it? 31:43 If you don't like it? 31:44 That was my whole point here, you know? 31:48 All right. 31:48 Fair enough. 31:49 I mean, again, I said, sometimes you don't know what you really like. 31:52 It is completely subconscious. 31:54 So you may actually like it. 31:55 You may like it, but you may like pretending not to like it. 31:58 Or it may have some other thing. 32:00 I don't know. 32:00 Who knows? 32:01 Okay. 32:01 Great. 32:03 The point is everyone is very thankful. 32:09 Especially the Grinch. 32:11 I'm the Thanksgiving Grinch. 32:12 Yeah, you are the Thanksgiving Grinch. 32:14 Oh, the episode title? 32:15 I don't know. 32:20 Yeah. 32:20 A lot of these bullet points are obviously by you. 32:23 Non-incentivized, want to help Bitcoin ecosystem thing. 32:27 We did that one. 32:29 What number is that one again? 32:32 Four. 32:34 Yeah, we already talked about that one. 32:36 I was just saying, I'm writing. 32:38 Okay. 32:39 I'm going to do one about the funny explanations. 32:44 What number is that again? 32:45 Teaching Bitcoin number six. 32:46 Okay. 32:48 Do you want to do that? 32:49 So I really noticed there's like this trend right now. 32:52 There's a few things in Bitcoin that gets your dicks up, right? 32:55 Metaphorically, of course. 32:57 Yeah. 32:57 The thing that gets your dicks up. 32:58 The culture rewards certain things that are quite something. 33:02 Yeah. 33:02 And the one of them is like, you have to show that you want to teach people, 33:06 right? 33:07 Everyone is a fucking teacher. 33:08 That's the thing. 33:09 Everyone is a teacher. 33:10 Everyone here is a teacher. 33:10 That's fine. 33:11 You know, so I don't know, but there is something about this that is funny. 33:14 I don't know what it is. 33:15 Well, the thing is. 33:16 I think this one specifically is funny in a way that some of the other ones aren't. 33:21 So there's a Twitter account that's called Twitter. 33:24 There's a Twitter account that's called TeachMeBitcoin's son. 33:27 Right. 33:27 And that's already pretty funny. 33:29 And there's between. 33:30 But some of them are okay. 33:32 Yeah. 33:32 Let me read it out. 33:32 Let me read it. 33:33 Sure. 33:34 So this is a specific one we're talking about. 33:36 Son, what is a native cigarette address? 33:40 And the address is not spelled the way it is in America. 33:44 Anyway, let's forget about that. 33:46 Right. 33:46 And then he goes like, hi, dad. 33:48 Native cig with also known as bitch 32 is the latest tipping address format. 33:54 They started with BC one. 33:56 What is that good for? 33:57 It's good for faster transaction speed, better scalability, and even 34:01 lower fees per transaction. 34:02 Oh, in that case, and BC one addresses like address that, that, that. 34:08 So now I'm just, I'm just thinking here, if you have someone who doesn't know how 34:10 to fucking spell address, right. 34:12 Even I know how to spell. 34:13 I mean, of course. 34:14 Yeah. 34:14 And I have a problem with it. 34:15 And, and, and they probably heard this and it's probably a fighter. 34:19 It's an older person. 34:20 Right. 34:20 And here's this somewhere and he's talking to his son and he goes 34:24 what's a native cigarette address using air, using quotes. 34:27 Right. 34:28 And the person goes like, well, is the latest tipping address for my, I mean, 34:32 it's just like, what the fuck clarification does that do? 34:37 What is it? 34:38 That's not true. 34:39 It's like asking someone like, like what is mystery word X. 34:42 And then they give you, it's mystery word. 34:44 Why? 34:44 Yeah, exactly. 34:46 What the fuck are you talking about? 34:48 Two things. 34:48 I don't know. 34:50 Yeah, they start with, well, he said, he said they start with BC one. 34:53 So that was a, that was, that's what they call empiricism. 34:56 Kids that he can use information from the census to see if the 35:03 address starts with BC, you know, that's not actually true. 35:05 They start with BC one Q. 35:07 Did you know that one is separating them, but the version number one 35:13 translates to Q in this absurd address format that I love. 35:19 So they actually all start with BC one Q. 35:22 Look it up kids. 35:23 Find it, find a batch 32 address that doesn't start with BC one Q and then 35:27 post it below when Alex cuts this clip to embarrass me, but they, they start 35:33 with BC one Q because the version number is a Q because nothing's more intuitive 35:37 than having Q being a human interpretable one for the first version of this. 35:48 One second. 35:49 Let me bring a bit of context about addresses and whatever. 35:52 And then when we get to the point of BC, of these new ones, you step in and you, 35:55 you know, and whatever. 35:56 Okay. 35:57 So add, so addresses pretty much don't really exist in Bitcoin. 36:00 If you come think of it, right. 36:01 They're like this. 36:02 I do not. 36:03 They're not, none of them are on the blockchain ever. 36:05 Right. 36:06 So because I think some other thing called the hash 160 is on the blockchain. 36:09 Wait your turn, motherfucker. 36:10 So the thing is when you have on the blockchain, you only have transactions 36:17 that have an input and an output, right? 36:18 And these things end up being scripts, which it's a bit more complicated, but 36:22 when you talk about something, you use the word address. 36:24 Now the word address is like actually the worst word you can use because it makes 36:28 people think that's something else and it's talk right now. 36:31 So we're still using them anyway. 36:32 And this address seems to be different format. 36:35 And there's the classical one, the one that started with one. 36:38 And then there's the ones that start with free. 36:39 The ones that started with free could be a multi-sig address or a SIGWIT address. 36:43 Now, when you say SIGWIT, that's also a bit complicated because there's native 36:47 SIGWIT and then there's paid to script hash, which is also referred to as SIGWIT. 36:52 Right. 36:52 And the thing is that, um, when, excuse me, there are also, there are paid to 36:57 script hash that are not SIGWIT, you know that, right? 37:00 Three means paid to script hash and they worked out this way of fitting SIGWIT 37:10 into that, but then they also came out with this new address for something that 37:16 was native SIGWIT. 37:17 So the SIGWIT thing, as everyone knows, there's like the SIG, which stands for 37:20 Segregated Weakness. 37:21 When this update happened and we talked about in the last episode, go check it 37:24 out. 37:24 And then it kind of became really obvious that SIGWIT being good, everyone 37:29 needed to use SIGWIT. 37:31 And it was the real SIGWIT, which was the BC1 addresses that the SunTracker 37:36 was going to say to fodder. 37:37 And then there's the fake SIGWIT ones, if I could call them. 37:41 But anyway, why don't you explain, I know you have some criticisms on, uh, on the 37:45 BC1 address. 37:45 On batch 32? 37:47 Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to have. 37:49 Ah, there's, I don't even know where to begin. 37:51 It was like, this is like, this is like if the autism spectrum designed an address 37:59 format, because there are all these criteria about making it easier for QR 38:03 codes. 38:04 And the poor computer has to do shots. 38:08 You did six twice through the checksum and the normal address. 38:11 So they came up with this thing that is like faster to read over the telephone by 38:18 some percentage point, but, but it misses a lot of the important things about 38:22 address. 38:22 One is that they are, they represent Bitcoin visually. 38:26 So they are iconic. 38:28 So people are used to the one random string of characters, stop, like 20 38:36 characters. 38:36 They were used to that look. 38:39 And that was even showing up in like television shows and maybe even a movie 38:44 or something. 38:45 You, you would see this thing. 38:46 Oh, it's a Bitcoin address, but these look just very different. 38:51 So it throws away all of the, the goodwill and the, the marketing and the culture 38:57 that had been built up, which that's extremely valuable when you're trying to 39:01 get the entire world to adopt this as money. 39:04 But in particular, what's absurd about them is that they all start with BC1Q and 39:10 it makes it so that your eye just very visually, it's very difficult for your eye 39:14 to see in to the first few characters of the address that are relevant. 39:21 And the whole point of having started with a one or two or three, or, you know, or 39:27 some other thing like with them in Zcash, there's the transparent and the Z, the T 39:32 addresses and the Z address and Litecoin with the L and Dogecoin with the D. 39:36 The whole point is that the first character packs a lot of punch, but with 39:41 this, they have four characters that pack no punch at all. 39:45 And that makes it visually sort of tiresome to, to just look at the addresses, 39:52 which I think is so bad all by itself. 39:55 And it, you know, it eliminates most of the other positive features. 40:00 So they could have just replaced the BC1Q with like a four or something. 40:05 I don't even care, but I'm sure that that's probably P2SH on the testnet. 40:11 But it doesn't make any difference. 40:13 You could still use it as a four. 40:16 Um, well, Steger is 141, is it not? 40:19 Although, oh, it had its own, didn't it? 40:23 Yeah. 40:24 I don't know. 40:24 Uh, that's a good question. 40:27 Yeah. 40:27 Wait one second. 40:28 It's, it's called, wait, let me show you. 40:30 173. 40:31 Yeah. 40:32 I, I'm going to show it in the, in the Zoom box here. 40:34 There you go. 40:35 Okay. 40:35 Uh, who, who wrote this? 40:38 William Maxwell. 40:39 Yeah. 40:40 I was going to say William Maxwell. 40:41 Exactly. 40:41 Right. 40:42 We need to, we need to, we need to put another bounty on this motherfucker. 40:46 What's, oh, from the, from the, whatever joke from last time. 40:50 Yeah. 40:52 I got actually a couple of messages about that. 40:53 People are like, oh, some people ask me like, what am I talking about? 40:58 But then other people were like, oh, that's ingenious. 41:01 I never heard of it. 41:02 Cause if you think about it, he says, Murcha says you have to produce the, 41:08 what does he say? 41:09 Verifiable death certificate. 41:11 So it's clearly, but it's clearly a joke about the cryptographic witness that, 41:16 cause the death certificate is like the witness, the cryptographic witness of 41:19 like, see what I mean? 41:21 Like his parents, if he just got like hit by a bus or something, his parents 41:24 could produce the death certificate. 41:27 So it's like a joke. 41:28 The whole thing is a segue joke, but I'm sorry that more people don't appreciate 41:32 that and that guy has a completely insane sense of humor, but that's clearly how I 41:36 took it. 41:37 Okay. 41:38 So, yeah. 41:38 So why are you linked to the BIP so that I can, I was just, I was just, I was just 41:43 curious who, um, who wrote it. 41:45 Yeah, of course. 41:46 Why, as I say, I was like, you know, it's, it's like, this is, you know, when I 41:52 look at batch 32, you know, there's a famous clip, maybe we should not link it. 41:55 I don't know if I did. 41:57 It's where the clip is Steve jobs fielding questions and there's clearly some 42:02 disgruntled engineer. 42:04 And I think they killed the open doc or something. 42:06 You may know this clip. 42:07 It's quite famous. 42:09 And he says that Steve jobs fucking fraud and he sucks or whatever. 42:14 What have you been doing for the last seven years? 42:16 Yeah. 42:16 He says something like that. 42:17 Yeah. 42:18 Yeah. 42:18 And he says he's clearly upset and he's clearly like a divergent to Steve jobs 42:24 is Chad. 42:25 Um, and then Steve jobs gives like his charming kind of magic CEO answer. 42:30 Right. 42:31 But the answer is like, you have to start, we have to work from the user experience 42:34 and he's like, he knows there's going to be a lot of good technology that it's 42:39 just, the timing won't be right or whatever. 42:41 But when I, I, when I see the batch 32 addresses, I, I just think of the guy 42:47 talking to Steve jobs and I think that it's the wrong, it's the wrong direction. 42:53 So, cause no, cause he wouldn't care about the, how iconic it looks, the old 42:57 addresses, they have a certain look and this is like, this is like, I want to 43:01 drift a bit. 43:02 I want to drift a bit. 43:02 So, uh, let me ask you this. 43:04 Do you spend a lot of time on Bitcoin Weezers and on IRC and all this thing? 43:07 I used to. 43:08 No, not in years. 43:09 You're not, you're not active anymore. 43:11 But I used to, yeah, all the time. 43:13 Yeah. 43:13 Why don't you spend a bit? 43:14 Well, I know why. 43:15 I know you're getting, you know why. 43:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 43:18 No, that's why it's because they are very predictable at this point. 43:22 So instead of the 301 and 300 BIP, did you read, write any other BIPs? 43:28 Or did you even wrote those ones yourself? 43:29 I wrote 300 and 301. 43:32 Okay. 43:32 Okay. 43:33 I was just curious. 43:34 Anyway, a side note. 43:35 Okay. 43:35 So then the, the, the, the BCH one, you don't like it. 43:38 Yeah. 43:39 I don't know what to say about it. 43:40 I think the, I think it's mostly harmless. 43:42 I just think it's, it's absurd that they went through all this trouble for 43:47 something that I think is clearly worse, but I don't think it's like a huge deal. 43:52 So, but of course everyone's saying it's so great. 43:55 So when you're doing this, so when you're doing a normal address, you, you get your, 43:59 your, your elliptic, you get your, your, your, your point, right? 44:04 The public key, which is almost always compressed these days. 44:08 Right. 44:08 And then you have to do two SHAs on it, right? 44:11 You have to do a ripe ND, another SHA. 44:12 Anyway. 44:13 No, no, no. 44:14 You do one SHA and then one ripe ND. 44:17 Yeah. 44:17 Yeah. 44:17 Okay. 44:18 Yeah. 44:18 Sorry. 44:19 So then when you, then you do two SHAs later for the checksum. 44:22 That's the human readable part. 44:24 Okay. 44:24 So then what is different in this process? 44:27 How is this different for the BITCH32 one? 44:29 Where it's just like the last two steps are different or they're not different at all. 44:34 The crucial thing is scripts. 44:37 I'm not, okay. 44:38 I don't know if anyone will care or follow this, but on the blockchain is only that thing that I 44:43 called the hash 160, which may mislead people itself. 44:47 I don't know, because that's also the operation of taking a SHA-256 and then ripe ND on 60. 44:55 But the point is there are these bytes on the blockchain, and then when you want to 44:58 spend, there's the scripts. 45:00 So the script says, if you want to move these coins, you're going to unlock this UTXO. 45:07 You must give me the thing that when I hash, when hash becomes, in a certain way, 45:14 becomes these bytes. 45:16 So you must give the public key and hash it. 45:19 And when that thing, when that thing signs this transaction, the signature comes from this 45:29 public key. 45:31 So you have to give it something that is a public key and that it matches the, what will be 45:39 these bytes, the hash 160. 45:42 So there's a string of bytes in a little script. 45:45 And what matters is the script and the script tells you, the script just tells you what it is. 45:51 And then you, if you have the public key and the private key, you will be able to produce a 45:55 signature and you'll be able to also reveal the public key. 45:58 So you will then give it the script, what it needs to unlock. 46:03 And so, again, as you were saying, the addresses themselves are not actually on the, on the 46:13 blockchain at all. 46:14 Maybe I was saying that. 46:15 I don't know. 46:15 But the point is the addresses aren't in the blockchain. 46:19 Yeah, so that the addresses aren't in the blockchain. 46:21 So there's no BCH one. 46:24 A question is why? 46:26 Oh, yeah. 46:27 Well, this is silly when the person says it's good for fast transaction speed, better 46:30 scalability, even lower fees for transaction. 46:32 The reason that the fees are lower is not because of any kind of efficient compression. 46:38 And in fact, the batch 32 addresses are longer because they don't use mixed case. 46:42 So they're actually, the addresses themselves are bigger. 46:45 But as I just tried to explain, the addresses themselves are not on the blockchain at all. 46:49 The script, the efficiency comes from the script and the witness they are. 46:53 Yes. 46:54 And the address is just a way of talking about those bytes that are on the blockchain in a 47:00 way that minimizes human confusion and typos. 47:04 But this is just whatever bytes are there, that is the key for the public, for this key 47:09 pair situation. 47:10 I have a tangential question. 47:12 I remember at some point you couldn't, so right now you don't put a public key just 47:17 like that, right? 47:18 Because and I know there was to be this in a transaction. 47:22 You don't just. 47:23 When you are spending to the address, you do not, by convention, you don't put it there. 47:30 I guess you could. 47:31 And I, you know, I don't know. 47:32 I've never really looked into that. 47:33 So I remember at some point I was reading on Bitcoin talk a long time ago that the 47:37 argument was that in case there's some quantum thing. 47:41 It happens to be, I think, an unexpected benefit. 47:43 Yeah, but actually, I think Peter Wooler wrote a post like last year and he, well, he 47:48 explained that actually it's stupid, right? 47:50 It doesn't make any sense. 47:51 And also the thing is that isn't Genoa actually not going to do that anymore? 47:56 Isn't Genoa just going to have the public key pretty much there? 47:58 I don't know. 47:59 I would be interested in that because I've always wondered that myself, like. 48:04 Isn't it a waste to put 20 bytes? 48:09 I wish I would find this. 48:10 But I have actually never, I don't want to say it because I haven't looked into it at 48:13 all, but I've always wondered why put, and right now the script has 20 bytes and then 48:20 later on you'll have the entire public key, which will probably be compressed and the 48:25 signature, but couldn't you have just put the one public key in the first place and 48:29 then you would never need the total across all things would be less, you would think. 48:36 I really would want, I'm trying to find that post right now. 48:38 He explains it on Stack Overflow. 48:40 I can't remember what you're talking about, right? 48:42 I'm not, I don't know. 48:42 I don't know. 48:43 I know I saw it on Twitter. 48:44 Anyway, even if we tweet at him, I don't think he's going to answer it now. 48:46 Anyway, but yeah, there was an interesting thing where quantum computers may at some 48:53 point be able to take the public key and figure out what the private key is, but it just so 48:58 happens that since that'll take them a while. 49:01 And since Bitcoin transactions send to the hash of the public key, as I've just tried 49:08 to explain, they won't know what the public key is until the next person spends it. 49:14 So it'll be too late. 49:15 And so it just happens to be like quantum proof. 49:17 But I think that that was just kind of a, maybe a lucky coincidence or an unintentional 49:23 thing. 49:24 Yeah. 49:24 Well, the thing is like, I think that was, that was, that was Jessica and folk or Bitcoin 49:27 folk, right? 49:27 They got passed around. 49:29 Yeah, that was, there was definitely folklore that just got passed around too. 49:33 That's exactly what that was. 49:34 I really should find it post. 49:35 We're going to try to look for it from next time. 49:38 Yeah. 49:39 How the fuck do we even kind of understand that? 49:41 Because we were talking about this guy, the dad, teach me Bitcoin. 49:44 Oh yeah, okay, okay. 49:46 Anyway, so that's all. 49:47 You just said one criticism for a bitch for 82 addresses. 49:51 The appearance and the absurd number of bytes. 49:53 There's no using one is not the version number. 49:59 Queue is the version number like, well, if you're going to be the torture to death of something, this is like insane decisions. 50:05 Yeah. Yeah. I think it should just start with a four instead of BC one queue. I would like that better. I know it's pretty obvious. We're not going to use addresses in the future. It's so it's like, I know there's not going to use, no one's going to use any addresses of any kind. So yeah, it is like IP addresses. It's like, you know, that's a yet another reason why we're not going to use addresses in the future. 50:25 That's yet another reason why it's silly to do. 50:28 Well, I don't know if it's silly anyway, but you know, it's like, you know, like a lot of people right now, some people still know how to use a wire shark and scan for packets. Right. But it's like, it's a very like fucking low level thing to do. You know what I'm trying to say? 50:43 Yeah, that'd be like the people with this. I think you're right. I mean, so with SegWit, there had to be some designation to say this is a totally different type of output. So they had to do. So what they say is we had to do a different address format anyway. So we put a lot of thought into this one. And look how much easier it is to read over the phone. That's, that's like what they say. 51:07 I know, you know, and the thing is, like, I've heard that also. And like that, it's the fact that there's no, there's no fucking like capital letters and whatever. But I don't, I think this is the same as the quantum argument. Like, I actually thought about it. I don't think they were thinking about it. I think someone put it out there. And the meme just get past them. I don't look, I don't know, this is a bit too much over my head. And I'm not sure. And I never looked at much of those things. So 51:30 SegWit is I want to say one final thing, though, that the it's only cheaper, because in a this is like a Jihan Wu, remember, he said the unfairly cheap thing. There's a different if a transaction is made completely with SegWit, with native SegWit, more of it is in the new extension block, versus if it's completely in the old way, all of it has to be the old one megabyte block. 51:59 But if it's new, with native SegWit, more of it is pushed away into the extension block, the four megabyte part. 52:08 So what you're trying to say is that the data is just going to be discounted. And that's why it's going to be 52:13 The two transactions that consume the same amount of bytes and have make your computer do the same amount of work. 52:21 The SegWit one will be cheaper, but that is not as a result of any engineering efficiency. 52:28 It is the exact same number of bytes going over the wire, and it is the same work done by your CPU, probably even more, but maybe not, you know, like SegWit, you know, decoding and recoding. 52:43 So the savings are completely, I understand what Jihan Wu was saying when he said unfairly cheap, even though it's a funny way of putting it. 52:54 Really, what happened was the old ones are sort of unfairly over expensive. 53:01 Those are like quadruple charged. Well, they're not quite, but they're, those are overcharged. 53:06 It's the same transaction, but it just consumes more of the precious one megabyte non-witness part of the block. 53:15 And so the fact that the fees are cheaper when using native SegWit has nothing to do with any actual physics or engineering. 53:25 The cheapness comes from the fact that it's per byte when you put how much you pay per unit of something. 53:31 That's why it feels cheaper. 53:32 It's per V-byte. 53:33 Correct, it's per V-byte. It's not the same thing, I know. 53:36 Yes. 53:37 That's why it gets cheaper, actually. 53:38 That's what I'm saying. But it's the same, you understand that the transaction, two transactions could be the exact same size. 53:44 One, they could both be 300 bytes, one native SegWit and one completely legacy. 53:51 And this native SegWit one will be cheaper, but it's 300 bytes over the wire. 53:58 It's another, it's whatever entries into the UTXO set. 54:03 And so it's not cheaper because the transactions are more efficient at all. 54:10 Yeah, I got it. I mean, I kind of knew that, so yeah. 54:13 But I think that's a very important clarification. 54:15 I think most people don't know anything about that, so. 54:19 You know what was weird? You remember, you know John Carvalho, right? 54:22 I do, yeah. 54:23 I met him a few times. He's a really cool guy, by the way. 54:26 Anyway, he was like really vocal about SegWit and all these things, right? 54:29 Do you remember the Roger Ver thing, the whatever, right? 54:32 I do, yes. 54:33 And I find it really funny. And again, I don't want to like, John is a very smart guy. 54:37 I know exactly what you're going to say. 54:38 But he fucking tweets like a few weeks ago. 54:42 It was very recently. 54:44 Yeah, that actually, that was a block increase. 54:46 And I was just like, dude, that's rookie. 54:48 Like, look, I'm an idiot. 54:50 And he was so against the block size. 54:53 This is like, you know, any hard-fought block size increase too. 54:57 So he was accidentally 4-1 for years, but he had no idea. 55:00 I mean, what do you even say? 55:01 That was a bit cringy. 55:02 Again, I like John a lot, and he's a cool guy, and he's like very smart. 55:07 A lot of people are like that. 55:08 Most people don't. 55:09 See, I did a tweet, and I think most people just didn't understand it at all. 55:13 I thought it was kind of clever, but I think it may have been too clever. 55:16 Did you do it again? 55:17 Did you piss people off again? 55:18 Maybe. 55:19 No, it was a while ago when I was like, I don't remember exactly. 55:24 I phrased it, but it was something like, in 2017, the Bitcoin community were both, 55:35 they were like, they both rejected a block size increase and increased the block size 55:42 or something like that. 55:44 So you never know which side the community is on. 55:46 Like, that was the joke of the tweet, is like, which side is the community on? 55:49 But most people were just like, what are you talking about? 55:52 But the block size increase was SegWit, and the one that was rejected was SegWit2x. 55:58 But SegWit was a block size increase. 56:01 Yeah. 56:02 But in all fairness, like, it took me, I think, a few weeks to understand what's actually 56:06 happening. 56:07 And even right now, I don't think I got it. 56:08 And the only way to really get what's happening- 56:10 No, but if you don't understand this word, then you should never support or reject anything. 56:14 Yeah, I guess that's a valid point. 56:16 Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that you really have to, like, sit down and look at 56:20 a transaction and really calculate the VBI. 56:23 Yeah, you do. 56:24 That's the only way you're going to understand it. 56:25 Which is torture. 56:26 It's very difficult to do. 56:27 Yeah. 56:28 Because I know what you're going to say, because I don't have a calculator. 56:31 No, but I'll tell you, there is one. 56:33 There's a great, my favorite block explorer. 56:35 Yog.io. 56:36 Look it up. 56:37 It's great. 56:38 Link it to me right now. 56:39 Y-O-G-H.io. 56:42 And it has everything broken down by byte. 56:45 You're kidding me. 56:46 It's the most marvelous thing in the universe. 56:47 I can't find it. 56:48 Can you please link it? 56:50 Y-O-G-H.io. 56:51 I will link it to you, but that's silly that you need to link it. 56:54 I don't know how to spell. 56:55 I don't know how to spell. 56:57 Oh, my God. 56:58 I don't know. 56:59 I really don't know how to spell. 57:00 You don't. 57:01 I've seen stuff you write in the document. 57:04 I'm not kidding, by the way. 57:06 In Romanian, everything sounds the same. 57:08 It sounds as you read it. 57:09 In Romanian. 57:10 You have to do some kind of Romanian time with Alex. 57:19 No, but there has to be like a Romanian holiday or something. 57:22 Like Thanksgiving. 57:23 Romanian Thanksgiving. 57:26 Well, we don't have Romanian Thanksgiving because we have to be thankful. 57:29 Some other thing. 57:30 You just need some other thing. 57:32 Oh, my God. 57:33 This is incredible. 57:34 You mouse over it. 57:36 It gives you whatever you're looking at. 57:38 It does the endianness correct. 57:40 It does everything. 57:41 Dude, this is almost as good as the thing I showed last time. 57:45 Is it good? 57:46 Oh, this is so good. 57:47 Yeah, this is a really nice one. 57:48 Nice one. 57:49 Good job. 57:50 Yeah, it's been my favorite block explorer for years. 57:52 Oh, my God. 57:53 I've been looking for such a thing like this. 57:55 It's great. 57:56 Oh, you want to know something really great? 57:58 It's just like a mining simulator. 58:00 It's super absurd and silly, but it's very fun to watch. 58:04 If you go back up to the top. 58:07 Wait one second. 58:08 This podcast is just going to be us looking at. 58:10 What do I have to look at right now? 58:11 Tell me what I have to look at. 58:12 Go up to the top and click Bitcoin reader to go back to the main page. 58:16 Click mining simulator and then click start. 58:20 No way. 58:24 Dude, this is such a good. 58:25 It counts the amounts up. 58:26 It's so funny. 58:28 This is the silliest thing ever. 58:30 This is the best education tool I ever came across. 58:32 Isn't it great? 58:34 See, this is what I want in everything. 58:38 Oh, this is so great. 58:40 Yeah, you can even see the time. 58:42 The first time I started looking at Bitcoin, I was probably in 2013 or something. 58:47 I was still in college. 58:48 And I remember doing these things by hand, man, on a piece of paper and all of that. 58:52 That sounds terrible. 58:54 Well, there was no other way to learn about it. 58:56 And I really wanted to understand. 58:58 And I didn't even do them all. 58:59 It was crazy. 59:00 Yeah, well, that's why I think these types of things actually help the security of Bitcoin 59:05 because they make it very difficult for any attacker. 59:08 They frustrate the attacker. 59:10 But yeah, but I guess it's just too big about having a hash calculator and Bitcoin. 59:16 It's just too much. 59:17 The bridge too far. 59:19 Look, as much as I like this thing. 59:22 Look, why don't you try to put an educational website up and put all these things together? 59:26 Yeah, maybe I will. 59:27 Maybe we should do that. 59:29 Okay. 59:30 Maybe I will. 59:31 Oh, look, you put here in the show notes a link from Washington Post. 59:35 It asked me for money. 59:37 It asked me for fucking money, dude. 59:39 To read the article? 59:40 Yeah. 59:41 Okay, let me explain to you. 59:43 There is a Firefox plugin called Bypass Paywalls. 59:48 End of explanation. 59:49 That's all you need to know. 59:50 Just install the plugin. 59:52 And it just signs you into every media. 59:56 Okay, so that's just part of what you get on the show. 1:00:00 Paul's wacky websites and Firefox plugin ideas. 1:00:05 Do you understand what I'm saying? 1:00:07 If you just put the plugin in, it just signs you in. 1:00:10 Right. 1:00:11 Okay. 1:00:12 The funny thing is, okay, I will try to- 1:00:13 I can't install that plugin though. 1:00:14 I'll tell you why. 1:00:15 Oh, okay. 1:00:16 Because you didn't run a full node of it. 1:00:19 No, well, they're all open source, by the way. 1:00:22 All plugins are open source, if I'm not mistaken, on Chrome and Firefox. 1:00:27 Is that incorrect? 1:00:28 I don't know. 1:00:29 How could I know that? 1:00:30 What, the status of every plugin ever written for those browsers? 1:00:34 No, I think there's a way you can look at the code. 1:00:36 There's a policy. 1:00:37 Yeah, I think so. 1:00:38 Anyway, what's the post about? 1:00:40 What's the article about? 1:00:41 The post is just, I don't know if it's, the teacher's either a genius or they're crazy. 1:00:47 Explain the post. 1:00:48 I didn't read it. 1:00:49 The post is, there's like a high school teacher who's giving his students cryptocurrency. 1:00:56 So here's a quote. 1:00:58 One of Pimienta's teachers, Pimienta is this, I don't know, like the nickname for one of the students. 1:01:08 That's a Spanish for pepper or something, right? 1:01:12 Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? 1:01:15 I'm confused right now. 1:01:16 I'm just talking about things, okay? 1:01:18 Oh, my God. 1:01:19 Okay, one of Pimienta's teachers, Carlos Acevedo, my apologies, I can't pronounce his name, 1:01:25 gave Pimienta and some of his classmates a special graduation gift, Zcash, a cryptocurrency that launched in late 2016. 1:01:34 The story is just full of this guy giving away cryptocurrency to his students. 1:01:40 I have a question. 1:01:41 And he says stuff like, I maybe should have opened it so that I could read it better, 1:01:47 but it's all about him trying to encourage them to get into the industry. 1:01:54 I have a question. 1:01:55 This is like stocks. 1:01:56 I see it as a way to make money, said Pimienta, who tracks crypto prices on his phone 1:02:01 and debates with friends which virtual currency is likely to rise. 1:02:05 So the question is, is this a nightmare or is this success? 1:02:09 Oh, I see. 1:02:10 That's why I wanted to bring it up. 1:02:12 Like is this success or is this a nightmare? 1:02:16 I think it's a sign of the bull market beginning, so it's success. 1:02:20 I thought you were going to say so it's a nightmare. 1:02:23 Why would I think it's a nightmare if the bull market is starting up? 1:02:26 I don't know. 1:02:27 I just definitely teach all these readers about the Jack's wallet and all this stuff. 1:02:31 It's a text message with their public key, similar to an accountant. 1:02:35 That sounds like so 2013. 1:02:37 See, this is where I get confused, though. 1:02:40 Okay, Morris, a public high school is in the poorest congressional district in the United States. 1:02:44 Almost every student receives free lunch. 1:02:46 The student body is one quarter African-American, three quarters Hispanic. 1:02:49 I don't know why that's relevant, whoever wrote this article. 1:02:52 It's kind of a weird thing to say right after that. 1:02:55 But the point is, that's not where I was going. 1:02:59 I wanted to say the part about poorest congressional district in the United States because is this like lambs being led to the slaughter? 1:03:08 Or is this like these people will be the next, you know, super wealthy? 1:03:13 I can see it being really great, and I can see it being like a horrible disaster, and I don't know how to feel that. 1:03:20 I think this is a piece that's supposed to get attention. 1:03:22 I think if it would go down there and we would see what's happening, it's probably a bit more different than someone just wrote a piece about it in Washington Post. 1:03:29 And there's like, oh, let's make it like this. 1:03:31 I don't think it's like as prevalent as you may think. 1:03:33 I think it's an isolated incident. 1:03:35 And they made it like these poor kids, da-da-da-da, and they're getting like Bitcoin. 1:03:40 They're being inspired to learn through crypto. 1:03:43 Yeah, I don't know. 1:03:44 I mean these guys are probably going to – I don't know who they are, but they're probably trying to score some weed in the dark in the market or something like that. 1:03:50 And, you know, they think it's like – I mean, yeah, you know, I don't judge people on things like that. 1:03:57 I judge them the opposite direction. 1:04:01 I do judge people. 1:04:03 Okay, this is a funny one. 1:04:05 This is another quote that I wanted to say. 1:04:07 This first assignment for the students – this is the teacher – this summer is to set up their own store on a site called Open Bazaar, which is similar to eBay, but which accepts more than 50 cryptocurrencies as payment for items. 1:04:20 So this is like – I know like Brian Hoffman. 1:04:25 So when you see it in a Washington Post article, it's always like really fun, but then it's like what is this? 1:04:32 What is going on? 1:04:34 He doesn't care what the students sell, artwork, babysitting services, or old clothes, but he wants them to become mini-entrepreneurs. 1:04:40 He told them he'll be their first customer. 1:04:42 So you see why it's funny. 1:04:45 Is this a good idea or is this horrible? 1:04:47 It's cringe-worthy. 1:04:48 By the way, I want to say something. 1:04:51 I think when this article came out, Brian and his fucking guys, they probably threw a party. 1:04:57 Like no one – it's crickets. 1:04:59 Crickets since 2014 on that project. 1:05:02 I know. 1:05:03 Crickets. 1:05:04 They finally hit press. 1:05:06 You know what I suspect? 1:05:08 He paid them to write the article. 1:05:11 I think he went to the school dressed up like a teacher and he's doing this to promote his – yeah, I think that's what happened. 1:05:18 Or it's like the – isn't there like an Obi-Wan token or something? 1:05:24 Like maybe the teacher owns the token. 1:05:27 How the fuck they survived? 1:05:29 Who the fuck invested money in that dumb project? 1:05:31 That's what I'm curious. 1:05:32 We should have him on. 1:05:33 I'm sure he'll come on. 1:05:34 He's got a great sense of humor. 1:05:36 You remember his old videos? 1:05:37 They were so funny. 1:05:38 Oh, my God. 1:05:39 I loved it. 1:05:40 He was like – you know when Mike in Space did his thing with a car? 1:05:42 Yeah, of course. 1:05:43 This was kind of that thing. 1:05:44 Those voiceovers were incredible. 1:05:45 They were so funny. 1:05:46 Yeah. 1:05:47 And some of the – and many of them have been taken down from YouTube, but he still has them. 1:05:51 They've got to get the backups. 1:05:52 We should try to get the backups. 1:05:53 One of my favorite ones, the one – there were so many that were good. 1:05:57 There was a great Blockstream one. 1:05:58 There was Peter Todd looks for love on Tinder. 1:06:01 It was so funny. 1:06:02 But the best one was like how Bitcoin works. 1:06:05 That one was taken down. 1:06:07 We have to somehow get it back up. 1:06:08 It was like all the – that makes the red card into a green card. 1:06:13 Like all these like shapes, and then cards go everywhere. 1:06:16 And it was like so funny. 1:06:19 We can't explain it easily. 1:06:22 I didn't – you know what? 1:06:25 Like Ryan was really nice, and when he went on Bitcoin – 1:06:27 The scaling one, it was so funny. 1:06:29 That one was so funny. 1:06:31 Anyway, the point is that the thing what happened with them, they kind of went on the BK side 1:06:35 because they got some money or something or some sponsoring. 1:06:38 And that's when people started hating him, like literally. 1:06:40 They forgot about him. 1:06:42 And yeah, he was like a really interesting character. 1:06:44 I remember when he went on Bitcoin Uncensored. 1:06:46 I do. 1:06:48 Dude, I was in Taiwan back then. 1:06:50 And I was walking around Taiwan. 1:06:52 I was in this weird place. 1:06:54 Anyway, and I put a thing on, and I listen even now to it. 1:06:58 And I'm listening to that podcast with them. 1:07:01 And I got to give it to him. 1:07:02 They attacked all his points. 1:07:04 And for someone who was attacked so much, and he was saying some dumb things, 1:07:07 he came out pretty nice out of it. 1:07:09 You know what I'm trying to say? 1:07:10 No, he's like a psychologically normal person honestly, which is – 1:07:14 That's not a compliment. 1:07:16 That's all you get. 1:07:17 That's all you can hope for in the Bitcoin world. 1:07:21 And a good sense of humor. 1:07:23 He has a good sense of humor. 1:07:25 Terrible project. 1:07:26 Awful project. 1:07:27 Well, everyone warned him. 1:07:28 They were like this is – 1:07:29 Weaver, Junseth even said, 1:07:32 all you will do is compete with Google even if you succeed. 1:07:36 That's basically like what happens, is it not? 1:07:39 Yeah, I don't know. 1:07:40 I just think like – 1:07:41 I remember when there were posts on Reddit 2013 early, 1:07:45 and people were saying like open bazaar, the new thing, da-da-da-da-da. 1:07:48 In the meanwhile, dark markets came about, 1:07:50 and those are actually the real things to look at for this type of commerce. 1:07:55 But maybe there's going to be another – 1:07:59 The thing is I don't know why you need your store to be censorship resistant. 1:08:03 That's what I – 1:08:04 Right, because you can just post on – 1:08:05 You can just like on Craigslist or on anything and just say, 1:08:08 I am selling my car. 1:08:10 I will take Bitcoin. 1:08:11 I would say I'm selling my car for $200 US, but if you – 1:08:14 I can accept Bitcoin. 1:08:15 But you have to – 1:08:16 But you know what though? 1:08:17 And then we talked about it. 1:08:18 So like back in the day, people were really receptive to crazy ideas, 1:08:22 and I think this really talked to this whole narrative of everything being native and connected, 1:08:26 and that's why a lot of people felt it was an interesting thing. 1:08:30 But I have a question for you. 1:08:32 What's your take on the Bit2CPay server? 1:08:35 Oh, that's a good question because I don't understand what it does, to be honest with you. 1:08:43 It's supposed to be competing with BitPay, right? 1:08:46 But BitPay, it's supposed to be like – 1:08:48 Well, I know a lot of the context. 1:08:50 I know that my faith – 1:08:52 I trust in you. 1:08:53 This is lies. 1:08:54 My faith in you is broken. 1:08:55 I will make you obsolete or whatever. 1:08:57 I will obsolete you. 1:08:58 Yeah. 1:08:59 Yes. 1:09:00 So I know a lot of context. 1:09:01 But surely the point of BitPay is there's like customer service number you can call. 1:09:06 There's like salespeople. 1:09:07 There's like a brand. 1:09:08 But this is supposed to replace that with an open source like cash register software thing. 1:09:17 But I think certainly there's more to BitPay than just software. 1:09:22 That's what I would think. 1:09:23 Oh, there 100% is. 1:09:25 So that's why I don't understand what's going on at all. 1:09:27 So maybe you can explain it to me. 1:09:29 Well, they're trying to compete. 1:09:31 They're trying to compete also. 1:09:33 And that vertical also. 1:09:35 They have the Telegram group. 1:09:36 Someone always helps you and whatever. 1:09:38 And I think that's a good idea and it's good intentions. 1:09:41 But I just don't see how it could work. 1:09:43 And I really feel like everyone, like the pitch is like, you can use BTC Pay server. 1:09:48 And small businesses can accept Bitcoin right now. 1:09:50 And I'm like, well, that doesn't solve – 1:09:52 that solves some of the problem, which is the checkout button on their website. 1:09:56 BitPay would give them cash like the next day. 1:10:00 It would put cash in their bank account the next day. 1:10:03 So that was like the whole point of BitPay. 1:10:06 It was like a no-brainer for the merchant because they're getting killed with credit card fees. 1:10:10 And they just said, well, this thing is super, super low fee. 1:10:12 And for a while they were even doing something where it was like zero fees 1:10:16 for the first like million dollars of transaction processing or something. 1:10:20 Weren't they doing some kind of promotion like that? 1:10:22 I think so. 1:10:23 A merchant would get cash like it was either the next day or like a week or something. 1:10:28 What BTC Pay is doing right now. 1:10:30 That's what BitPay was about. 1:10:32 It had nothing to do with software. 1:10:34 That's why I was confused. 1:10:35 Yeah, I know. 1:10:36 But the thing is like they are trying right now to – 1:10:38 they really care about having this open source spirit and whatever. 1:10:41 And what they're doing, they added this feature where you can connect your exchange or something like that. 1:10:46 But I think what everyone is missing though – this is how crazy it is for me. 1:10:50 Everyone thinks that – all the people in Bitcoin, they think they're all like us. 1:10:54 Like they want to like open terminals and set up things. 1:10:56 They really don't understand that people do not want to do that. 1:10:58 They don't understand that even setting up an exchange account, it's torture. 1:11:03 It's torture. 1:11:04 And even think about how hard it is to get an exchange account. 1:11:07 That's one of the worst accounts ever. 1:11:09 You have to do all this KYC. 1:11:11 It's harder than getting a bank account. 1:11:12 It is. 1:11:13 I think you may be right about that. 1:11:15 It's torture. 1:11:16 It 100% is. 1:11:18 And I don't know. 1:11:20 They're also one of those projects which everyone really likes a lot. 1:11:23 But they're doing great work. 1:11:25 But I feel like they became this irrational fanboys in my round then. 1:11:29 And their product was meant to do this thing, 1:11:31 which I still think there was a healthy niche. 1:11:34 But now they started just putting shit in that thing, like just a lot of shit there. 1:11:39 That's not necessarily you. 1:11:40 What did they put in there? 1:11:41 I mean this is a common thing where there's no accountability. 1:11:44 It just goes off the rails with weird ideas. 1:11:47 Yeah. 1:11:48 And the thing is like when you look – 1:11:50 No, but like what? 1:11:51 You can't keep saying like what did they put in this? 1:11:53 I don't know. 1:11:54 They have a lot of lightning stuff. 1:11:56 I remember like trying to set up a wallet. 1:11:58 It's like it's crazy. 1:12:00 It works bad. 1:12:01 There's too many buttons. 1:12:03 Yeah, I don't know. 1:12:04 It's just very – there's lack of focus if you ask me. 1:12:07 That's what it is. 1:12:08 And the thing is like no one dares to criticize them in any way 1:12:12 because they took on Big Pay. 1:12:14 And they kind of did, and there's merit to that. 1:12:16 But that doesn't mean that – it's like I could go and fight some evil monster. 1:12:20 That doesn't mean I'm going to win or my intentions are good. 1:12:22 I could trip over and fall down. 1:12:24 It doesn't mean I should get a pat on the back. 1:12:26 I don't know. 1:12:27 But yeah. 1:12:28 Yeah. 1:12:29 People say Big Pay is evil, but there was a time when Big Pay was great. 1:12:34 It was a great Bitcoin company. 1:12:36 Yeah, but they don't – 1:12:37 So I don't know if I update my Rolodex. 1:12:40 I know, but here's the thing is everyone is like, oh, Bitcoin is – 1:12:44 so many smart people here, it's a meritocracy, 1:12:47 and then it's like anyone who disagrees is cast out. 1:12:54 You're right. 1:12:55 There's a certain disagreement. 1:12:56 So it's kind of like, oh, okay. 1:13:00 You're very right. 1:13:01 There's a certain disagreement. 1:13:02 I know, but they do hate – what was that thing called, the payment protocol? 1:13:05 It was like horrible, and just like literally everyone hated it. 1:13:08 And I knew people who were like really talented, and they were like, 1:13:13 can you help me get a job? 1:13:15 And I was like, oh, what about Big Pay? 1:13:17 They would probably pay you a lot of money. 1:13:19 And they're like, oh, I just hate that payment protocol then. 1:13:24 I don't want to work there because the payment protocol is terrible though. 1:13:30 I don't know how to fix it. 1:13:32 I feel bad not being constructive, but using it was horrible. 1:13:37 Do you remember there was this website which was like – 1:13:39 because you couldn't get an address. 1:13:41 Yeah, because you could like – you're right. 1:13:43 What was horrible about it was that I couldn't just type in the stuff 1:13:48 in a normal language and just say everything. 1:13:50 How is that different than BIP-47 though? 1:13:53 It is. 1:13:54 BIP-47, everything is. 1:13:56 Everything you could decode. 1:13:57 Yeah, exactly right. 1:13:59 So you could, and if you want, you can take out this chain code, 1:14:04 and I don't know why you would ever want to do that. 1:14:11 But yeah, what was the problem with people typing things in wrong 1:14:15 and not sending the exact amount? 1:14:16 That was like the problem with – that was their issue with – 1:14:20 they said people would make errors. 1:14:22 The problem was that almost no one implemented it, 1:14:25 and you couldn't like copy – you couldn't like do it properly. 1:14:27 No, but I'm saying why did they want to push the payment protocol so badly 1:14:33 when it was like 80%? 1:14:35 You know what I think happened? 1:14:36 I think that they had this meeting, and there were a lot of people 1:14:38 who didn't know what they were talking about, and it seemed like a good idea, 1:14:40 but no one had any practical experience. 1:14:42 That's too dismissive though because I think they really were having 1:14:45 problems with fraud and like complaints. 1:14:47 So they were like, okay, if we just make this thing, 1:14:50 it'll just be this button that they'll click. 1:14:52 How the fuck do you have fraud on Bitcoin? 1:14:54 Because I think what they do is they send – they have a typo in the amount sent 1:14:58 or something, and then it doesn't show up. 1:15:00 The amount sent or something, and then it doesn't show up quite the right way. There 1:15:03 was like some reason for it. Do you know what I mean, what I'm saying? Like they say you 1:15:09 have to send this within 15 minutes, and you have to send this exact amount to this exact 1:15:12 address. Yes, exactly. And so people would send slightly the wrong amount, or they'd 1:15:17 round up or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It would just start like that. Also 1:15:22 with the fee thing, right? Because you have to – some wallets you would have to like 1:15:25 put in the fee and whatever. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's what they were trying 1:15:28 to react to. You may be right, actually. You may be right about that. I mean, they must 1:15:33 have been doing something because this was like the most hated thing ever. Well, do you 1:15:38 remember when they came out with Copain, which was the only multisig wallet for a while? 1:15:42 Yes. I think some people, most people liked it. That was the first good looking Bitcoin 1:15:48 wallet, by the way. Think about it, mobile. Both platforms, iOS, Android, you have to 1:15:53 recommend to someone which one it is. There you go. See, but in other words, irredeemably 1:15:58 evil, and that's why BTCPay server has to burn it to its frame. I don't know. Again, 1:16:08 when there's like irrational fanboyism, you should like – you should just do something 1:16:13 wrong there, right? Yeah. This is lies. I will destroy you, 3 million likes. No, I really 1:16:19 like that. I like the attitude of like having a crazy motivation like this about something. 1:16:24 I really love that, right? And I just think the project lost a bit of focus. That's 1:16:30 it. I think even if they have this tiny niche of building the best Bitcoin checkout button, 1:16:34 I still think there's a niche there. Yes, yes. I think that's fine. Yes, I agree with 1:16:39 you completely. I think you're right about that. But now it became like this. Oh my God, 1:16:44 you're saving everyone. It's like, come on. Thank God you rescued us from BitPay. 1:16:50 It's a fucking checkout button that connects with your hardware wall. Look, let's not 1:16:54 start sucking each other's dick yet, okay? Let's take it easy. You know what I'm trying 1:16:59 to say? Carlos Acevedo wants his students to learn how to build apps on the blockchain, 1:17:04 the technology underpinning cryptocurrency. Okay, what else do we have here? I don't 1:17:11 know what else we can talk about. Do we have anything good? We didn't have anything good 1:17:13 this week. Oh, yet another week. Oh, Taproot. Why did we talk about this? It's a very important 1:17:21 thing. Okay, what about it? Okay, this guy is complaining about privacy, but it's totally 1:17:29 unclear whether or not the complaint is legitimate or it's all ego driven or whatever. I saw 1:17:36 this thing like pop up in the Twitter feed. I don't know what the fuck this guy is talking 1:17:39 about. I don't understand. Okay, I can explain it, I think, if it's what I think it is. You 1:17:44 know, because there's a lot of people complaining about this and that all the time. But I will 1:17:50 paste it so that I can see it. Yeah, this guy is, who's this guy? This is some kind 1:17:55 of academic or something. Occasionally teaching blockchain at local universities. He is lead 1:18:02 developer at BlockChair. He has a unicorn in his description. For me, that's just like, 1:18:08 okay, bye. But anyway, go on. Yeah, I think that's probably wise. Anyway, his complaint is 1:18:15 there's yet another type. And so when you spend your wallet is biased toward keeping you 1:18:22 within a type. So this would create like yet another kind of output format. He says address 1:18:31 format, but that's not as we've just explained. That is not an accurate way of but sure, 1:18:40 whatever. The point is, on the blockchain stuff will look different whether or not it is tap 1:18:46 root or not. And it already looks different if it's SegWit or not. So his point is, as you do 1:18:51 this, there will just be all these things that look very different. And it will be easier to 1:18:56 track which payments are to you and which are change addresses and other things like that, 1:19:05 according to him. So it actually has nothing specific to do with Taproot at all of it would 1:19:09 apply his argument would apply to any new whatever you want to call this, I guess you would 1:19:17 call it a script template. 1:19:19 I mean, well, the same thing could be said about even like wallets because different wallets do 1:19:23 different like, you know, you can see a transaction was made by certain if you look really 1:19:27 hard. Yes, unfortunately, but I think mostly there's been more progress on that. Yeah, it has 1:19:33 been recently. Yeah, they should all standardize on something for their own mutual benefit. 1:19:40 There should just be one way of doing everything for every wallet for just a simple 1:19:48 transaction. Anyway, I don't know. When he uses caps lock also that makes me think that he is a 1:19:58 nut. You know, taproot has to be stopped all caps. I don't know. Anyway, the funny thing, 1:20:09 though, is that taproot actually fits all these other different scripts temp or tries to it 1:20:15 doesn't necessarily succeed. But through that thing mast we talked about last week, it tries to 1:20:21 fit all of the different new types into just one type. So it kind of actually aims to improve 1:20:30 privacy. But it's like it's like when you have we'll have this one new version that will be 1:20:36 compatible. This is like the XKCV comic. You know what I'm talking about? There's 14 different 1:20:41 versions. And he says, well, we need this new version that does everything. And it's like now 1:20:45 there's 15 versions. Yeah, so this is kind of like that, except it's, I don't know how you would 1:20:50 count them all. But this is like a new version to fix all the other versions. So this is a little 1:20:58 bit like that. 1:20:59 Regarding the privacy argument, isn't like with Schnorr and his things, you could like have 1:21:03 multiple people behind the signature and whatever. So isn't that like a trade off? 1:21:08 Schnorr would, I think, improve privacy quite a bit, because it would make a CoinJoin cheaper than 1:21:16 a regular transaction. And this gives you a pretext for using CoinJoin. 1:21:22 What's your take on CoinJoin? 1:21:23 I think without the pretext, it's hard. Everything with privacy needs a pretext for using it. So, in 1:21:31 other words, anything that aims to increase privacy must have some reason other than privacy for 1:21:44 using it. 1:21:45 I don't follow. I don't think I really... 1:21:47 Because you need, when the government says that that's a suspicious thing, you need to be able to 1:21:54 say, no, it's just cheaper, or it's just that's how my, whatever it needs to be. You need some 1:22:00 other reason. It needs to be a pretext for using it that is not privacy related. So with Schnorr, now 1:22:10 you have it for CoinJoin, now you're in business. But before you don't. Before CoinJoin, that's 1:22:15 only, that's what the terrorists do or whatever, the criminals. Just mix it with a bunch of 1:22:21 criminals. But now if everyone does it, it's cheaper. And then in any individual case, you know, 1:22:27 the judge calls you up and they say, hey, why'd you do this? You say, I don't know, it's just my 1:22:32 software is doing this. And then they go to the software developer and the software developer says 1:22:35 it's cheaper. 1:22:37 Right, right. I see what you're trying to say. 1:22:39 But every single privacy thing has to be that way. You can't just say, I'm going to go around wearing a 1:22:45 ski mask and goggles, because it's the most private. People will be like, that is a fucking 1:22:50 weirdo. And we need the police to, you know, beat him up and then ask him some questions. So you see, 1:22:56 that's no good. You have to cast some kind of magic spell so that ski masks are in fashion or 1:23:02 something. And everyone does it. Everyone wears it. It'd be cheaper to wear a ski mask than show your 1:23:08 face. 1:23:10 Yeah, I see what you're trying to say. 1:23:11 So this is a crucial element of privacy that is often de-emphasized because there are these 1:23:18 cryptographer mathematicians with their weird ideas that, you know, it won't matter because 1:23:22 they'll be like, why did you use Zcash, the anonymous currency? You must be up to something. 1:23:26 Are you familiar that a lot of, Adam Gibson talks about this quite a lot, about stenographical coin 1:23:31 joins, which you can't tell they're coin joins. 1:23:33 Yeah, that's perfect. And then there's also pay join, right? 1:23:37 That's an example of this. 1:23:39 Yeah, so that stuff's great. Well, yeah. So that's the other thing is you could have, it could, it 1:23:44 needs to, you either need the pretext or you need what, I just made this up. I don't know if it, 1:23:49 maybe stenography is a better word, but it needs to be meta-private. In other words, it needs to be 1:23:57 so private that no one can even tell that you're using the technique. 1:24:00 Yeah, yeah. 1:24:01 And then you have your pretext is that you didn't use it at all. And they can't prove that you did. 1:24:06 So that's really folds into my thing about pretexts. But yeah, it could be more expensive. 1:24:12 It could be no other reason to use it other than privacy. But as long as you have your excuse, so 1:24:17 the ideal excuse is like, exactly, the ideal excuse is like it was cheaper or I had to, I had no 1:24:24 choice. So if like the merchant forces you to do the most private thing. So those are the best 1:24:31 pretexts. But you could also have one where you just say, I didn't use that. And they can't prove 1:24:36 that you did. And now you have possible anonymity. So that's, those are, that's the Paul Sztorc 1:24:43 privacy, you know, experience. 1:24:48 Yeah, well, stenography was actually exactly about this. And I heard Adam Gibson use this word a 1:24:53 lot. I got it from him. I don't know. I don't know if he came up, but it doesn't sound like 1:24:56 something invented. But that, there's a lot of effort going into that, like not being able to see 1:25:01 their coindroins. Because that's the biggest problem with coindroins right now. It's like, Oh, I 1:25:06 lost my taint. Yeah, but your coindroin tainted, which is worse than before, you know? 1:25:12 Yeah, right. That's exactly what I mean. Yeah. So best thing though, if there were a Zcash side 1:25:19 chain, you could really untaint because you'd send the coins there, and then they all fuse into 1:25:24 this, this one output really. And then they come back. So they're like, and then you can just send 1:25:32 the coins to yourself once you get them back. You can always, sending coins to yourself is one of 1:25:38 the best privacy things ever. Because you can just say, I didn't coindroin. That was some other 1:25:45 guy who gave me the coins. The guy before me. 1:25:48 Yeah. But if you're like in the, in front of a policeman or something like police, you're going 1:25:53 to have to like be able to prove what I want. 1:25:54 The thing though, is when the way, just the way Drivechain works, the way most sidechains, I 1:25:59 think would work in practice, you, you don't actually do the long return. Second, the peg out 1:26:07 thing, you'd swap with someone else. So there'd be what you would actually do is send coins to the 1:26:14 Zcash sidechain, melt them down. And then someone like Eric Voorhees or Andreas or whatever, they 1:26:24 would buy them up for 99 cents on the dollar over there in the secret world. And they pay you out 1:26:29 with completely different bitcoins. And then they would walk them back slowly. So then you would, 1:26:36 then you'd have like really completely untainted them, which that would just be amazing. 1:26:42 How far away do you think that is like realistically happening? 1:26:45 Well, we already have a version of that, you know, we're testing that Zcash sidechain right now. 1:26:50 It's just because I'm too much of a perfectionist. Maybe I should release it until I ask other people 1:26:54 to help test it. 1:26:57 I mean, working by yourself, I don't think that's gonna make things easier, but harder. So yeah, I 1:27:02 don't know. 1:27:05 Yeah, maybe. 1:27:07 So what would, so once that's done, then the Drivechain is going to be live and everyone can use it 1:27:13 and that's it. 1:27:15 Yeah, that's a good point is that because it's like testing everything at once with Drivechain, 1:27:20 the sidechain template, Blind Merged Mining, and then the Zcash sidechain. So sometimes, it's very 1:27:27 rare at this point, but sometimes you want to change one thing, you want to change another thing. 1:27:33 So I wanted to make sure that it's, I don't like to bother people when the concrete is too wet, you 1:27:41 know, I like it to be dry concrete before I invite people over. 1:27:49 Yeah, but you're not inviting people to live in your house, you're inviting people to help you 1:27:52 build it. And once the concrete is hard, they can help you shape the concrete as long as the 1:27:58 concrete is still wet. 1:28:01 I don't want it to be too wet, is what I'm saying. 1:28:05 Yeah, I don't know if that works for what you're trying. I have no clue. So yeah. 1:28:09 Anyway, um, yeah, I don't know when realistically, I don't know, I do think yeah, probably January 1:28:14 1st, you'll see something out. 1:28:17 Really? That's not too far away. 1:28:19 Yeah. I mean, why not? As I said, we already have it. 1:28:22 Okay, that's just really interesting. All right. Well, I don't know what else we have around 1:28:29 here. 1:28:30 Yeah, how cool is that? Buying, selling to some exchange like, you know, ShapeShift or 1:28:36 SideShift on with Z transactions on a sidechain somewhere else. And then they would give you 1:28:42 completely different BTC coins. That would be amazing. 1:28:48 I think that would be very interesting. And definitely would. 1:28:51 And they would do it, absolutely do it for like 99 cents. And maybe who knows what they would 1:28:55 even charge you more than they charge you like 95 cents on the dollar. But that would, but 1:29:00 people would pay because it would completely detain the coins. So 100%. 1:29:05 I mean, people are paying for coin joints on Wasabi and whatever, around 10%, right? So this 1:29:10 should probably be even more expensive than that, because they actually work better, right? 1:29:15 Their willingness to pay would be higher. But it also is the case that anyone could supply this 1:29:20 service. So it's demand and supply. So demand would be higher. But if anyone can supply, I 1:29:26 don't know, it may be easier to supply this type of thing than it is to supply whatever is needed 1:29:31 to do coin joint. If you just had two competing exchanges, in fact, it would be bid down as 1:29:41 close to 100 cents on the dollar as possible, right? You just have two exchanges, each one of 1:29:47 them could do it. Yeah, there will be redeemed. Ultimately, they will be able to redeem them if 1:29:51 assuming ThriveChain works at all. 1:29:54 You're very right. You're very right. Because the thing with coin joints, there's a supply. 1:29:59 Yeah, it's not as available in all three models. In joint market is like, well, no, actually, in 1:30:05 joint market, it does get very tight and almost you have to pay only the transaction fees. But in 1:30:09 the other ones in Wasabi and Whirlpool, there's a time element to it. Yeah, you're right. 1:30:17 So the issue is supply. It's not enough people can supply the other coins needed for the privacy 1:30:24 construction. But that's an advantage of Zcash, whether a sidechain or not sidechain is that once 1:30:30 you merge in to the Z world, it doesn't matter how when you do that, or how many coins you have. So 1:30:38 you can just do that at any time in any amount. 1:30:41 I'm still not convinced about like, how good actually Zcash is. And I think they have some 1:30:47 really, they made some weird trade offs there, which you do when you build that type of a 1:30:50 project, mostly having to do with the verifiability of the supply. And I think that's 1:30:55 true. 1:30:56 But that's, that's another thing, though, that's great about the sidechain version, though, 1:30:59 because the sidechain version is immune. If there's inflation, it will just sink the sidechain 1:31:05 and it won't get explained. Because the sidechain is only determining what happens to the coins 1:31:11 that go in it. So on the regular Bitcoin world, there's some normal transaction that looks 1:31:16 extremely confusing if you don't update, if you just don't take this off fork, and you're just 1:31:22 watching. This transaction will look very strange to you, the Drivechain peg ins, because 1:31:27 there will just be coins being linked into this one UTXO that will just get bigger and bigger and 1:31:33 bigger, that will look like an anyone can spend, or will really look like is a transaction to an 1:31:39 address where the private key is known. So to be like, why is I could take all this money? Why 1:31:45 isn't anyone taking it? And the answer is that there's these extra software composed rules, which 1:31:50 are the Drivechain rules, blocking you from doing that, right. But it looked like all this, because 1:31:55 all this money is being threaded into one UTXO. So it's one, it's like a Bitcoin address with like a 1:32:01 10 million coins in it or something. 1:32:03 I'm still missing the point on why this is actually not. 1:32:07 So when there's no way, even if all the Drivechain stuff were ignored, let's say there's 100,000 1:32:15 coins in this output. Okay, you can never spend more than 100,000 BTC from there. 1:32:20 No, I get it. But like Zcash could have other problems with the total supply of Zcash in the 1:32:24 world. And that can still affect me. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how the Drivechain 1:32:29 solves that. 1:32:30 It would affect you if you had coins there at the time that it was exploited, you would lose all of 1:32:35 your coins. 1:32:36 Right. So your argument is... 1:32:37 My argument is, it only is, it's firewalled into that one zone. And you as a user can just, you go 1:32:44 through it for your privacy benefit, and then go back to saving on layer one. And so the people 1:32:51 over there would be specialists, people who would be there, those would be the exchange type 1:32:54 people, like, whatever, Eric Voorhees or Andreas Brecken. And they would be, since they are the 1:33:01 ones accumulating these balances for a lengthy amount of time, they would be specialists who 1:33:06 would have an incentive to look into it. 1:33:08 I understand this, but I got to understand it. But so the immune part that you're talking about, 1:33:14 is just because there's like this isolated part of the blockchain reality, which you're trying to 1:33:19 say is not affected by what other Zcash existing in the outside of this in the Zcash chain. I 1:33:24 don't understand how that makes any sense. 1:33:26 I don't understand where you are. It's a problem for Zcash to altcoin. If someone could print 1:33:33 counterfeit coins and start selling them, no one would know how, what happened. But on the side 1:33:40 chain, I think you would know because it would, they would want to kill the side, it would kill 1:33:44 the sidechain like immediately. And then you could start up the next sidechain that would 1:33:48 have the problem fixed. 1:33:50 Oh, I see what you're trying to say. Okay, right. 1:33:52 But meanwhile, if none of that would affect people who just invested in BTC, they would be 1:33:58 completely unaffected. 1:34:00 Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, I wasn't 1:34:02 That's very different from Zcash to altcoin, where if you want to buy in, you are now 1:34:07 potentially sunk by this because they don't even mean they mean they may want to credit you. You 1:34:14 know what I mean? But they may not even know if you haven't been see it. They may like never be 1:34:18 able to get anyone their money back. 1:34:22 Yeah, no, I thought you were making a little bit better. 1:34:26 Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I thought you were making the argument that it just 1:34:29 solves the whole problem for Zcash on its own. But it just doesn't, I couldn't 1:34:32 Right, it doesn't only when it's Zcash is mixed with sidechain concept is the problem greatly 1:34:39 reduced for most people. 1:34:41 Yeah, exactly. Greatly reduced. That is the proper way to say it. Yeah, fair enough. 1:34:47 All right. Okay, great. 1:34:48 Okay, do we have other topics here? 1:34:50 I'm the CEO of a company right now. 1:34:51 You're the CEO of a company, you raised a hundred million. 1:34:52 They're being a hedge fund. 1:34:53 You're a CEO of a company right now, yeah? 1:34:55 Yeah, and I raised a hundred million. 1:34:57 And you're doing something strictly related to BTC, kind of, you're bringing the hive 1:35:02 mind project. Let's just go. 1:35:03 Let's say the driving is your, yeah, and you could do it technically. 1:35:07 It's not no limited. 1:35:08 But I'm doing it through a company, which defeats the whole point. 1:35:12 I understand what you're saying. 1:35:13 I start with Blockstream 2.0 or something and I raise. 1:35:17 So you're telling me right now, how much of that money are you going to allocate into 1:35:20 BTC? 1:35:21 I'm honestly telling you that I'm not sure that it's, I would, you know, it would depend 1:35:27 on the investors. I can see myself allocating none because it's not, because I could tell 1:35:33 the investors, you should, you should invest your own money in BTC. 1:35:38 But this is not, I'm saying this is not, I'm not running a hedge fund for you. 1:35:43 Or am I? If they say run a hedge fund, then I'll run a hedge fund for them. 1:35:46 But then I'll make all kinds of investments, but that would mostly be BTC. 1:35:51 See, you understand what I'm saying? 1:35:53 Yeah. And I think you're very wrong about it. 1:35:54 I think you have this, again, what do you think is wrong about it? 1:35:57 I think is that you are a guy who has exposure to the greatest assets in the time. 1:36:02 You even know probably more than most of the people I fucking know. 1:36:05 And I know most of the people that do things right. 1:36:08 And even with all this information in front of you, I know I would tell them they should 1:36:14 invest their own money in BTC. 1:36:15 No, because there should be no paperwork about it. 1:36:17 No, you don't understand. 1:36:19 When the people invest in the company, they invest in you and you need to have some 1:36:23 guess. And they say like, dude, you put this guess, however you think it makes sense. 1:36:26 That's why people invest in companies, dude. 1:36:28 They don't invest in companies, they invest in specific people. 1:36:30 I think you may be right about that. 1:36:32 So if you're doing that right now, they already bet on you. 1:36:35 Now, the thing is that they're saying like, look, and now you should understand that. 1:36:39 Did you put all your personal money into BTC, most of it? 1:36:42 I don't have to answer it, but I'm sure the answer is yes. 1:36:44 So then I think if you're giving me the different answer for your company right now, 1:36:48 you're either lying or stupid, right? 1:36:50 There's no... 1:36:51 I understand what you mean by that, I think. 1:36:53 But there is, you do understand what I'm trying to say, that there is at one point, I 1:36:56 took in, at one point I took a finance class in college. 1:37:01 See, this is what you need to forget about. 1:37:03 You don't... 1:37:04 You may be right. I'm just telling you, Bill. 1:37:06 I'm telling you the thing is, the thing is, when you invest in a company, you should be 1:37:10 getting like a pure version of that company. 1:37:14 And if you shouldn't get, like, what if I were, I don't know how well this would 1:37:19 translate into London slash, I mean, like, ugh, like what are some companies that 1:37:25 compete, companies that compete with each other? 1:37:28 Like, OK, what if you invested money in me, and you said, and I said, I'm going to make 1:37:34 a great Bitcoin wallet. 1:37:36 But what I did instead, and I did no work, I just took the same money you invested in 1:37:41 me, and I put half of it into Wasabi, or however I do this, half of it into Wasabi and 1:37:48 half of it into Samurai. 1:37:51 Well, then I think you would see that this is this is something kind of suspicious is 1:37:55 happening here. I'm not actually doing anything. 1:37:57 They could have done that themselves. 1:37:59 They could have invested in Samurai and Wasabi themselves. 1:38:02 So my company is not really its own company. 1:38:04 It is just a convex combination of two other companies already. 1:38:10 I think the problem is academia fucked you too much in your head. 1:38:13 It may have. I don't know. 1:38:14 You know what the thing is. 1:38:15 But you understand why this argument exists. 1:38:17 And let me tell you why. 1:38:18 The investor should be sovereign and they should make all the decisions. 1:38:21 Yeah, see, that's the fucking problem. 1:38:22 And if they want to move things around, they're the king. 1:38:25 That's the problem with going to fucking college. 1:38:27 You may be right about that. 1:38:29 You know why the problem is? 1:38:29 It's possible that college just trains people to be good servants. 1:38:32 It's not about being a good servant. 1:38:34 It's that, look, dude, business in the real world, sometimes you acquire companies, 1:38:39 sometimes you invest in companies like, do you know that? 1:38:43 A lot of that is like a lot of that is dirty. 1:38:47 A lot of that is destroying value. 1:38:49 Ultimately, when you acquire companies and things, this is just games played by the CEO, 1:38:53 a little empire building so that the CEO can entrench this position. 1:38:57 This is the problem. 1:38:58 You're leaving all the money for free. 1:39:00 Dude, it's very simple. 1:39:02 It's very simple when you're a CEO, right? 1:39:04 You're on a ship. 1:39:05 Your ship has to grow at all fucking cost. 1:39:08 Everything else, it's relevant. 1:39:10 And sometimes the only thing you care about is not going to jail. 1:39:13 Other than that, everything, you fucking kill anyone in front of you. 1:39:16 That's a great CEO. 1:39:17 That's the job description of a CEO. 1:39:19 You may be right. 1:39:19 But again, in my head, I'm wondering now, what does Alex know about this at all? 1:39:24 Anyway, how many CEOs have you been? 1:39:28 How many, you know, like, I don't know, you may be right. 1:39:32 But one second right now, I'm not sure. 1:39:34 I don't think for me to be, my observation to be right, I had to like 1:39:37 meet CEOs or be a CEO or whatever. 1:39:39 You're right. 1:39:39 Hey, you're right. 1:39:40 I'm just saying, you know, I don't know. 1:39:42 You seem very confident, which is always suspicious to me. 1:39:45 See, see that. 1:39:46 That's the fucking problem, right? 1:39:47 That is the craziest thing right now. 1:39:49 When you see someone being confident, you shouldn't be suspicious, dude. 1:39:52 Confidence should be a sign of goodness. 1:39:54 It's crazy how people see the confidence as a sign of something else. 1:39:59 It's a sign of something else. But anyway, that's not a problem. 1:40:00 Yeah, sometimes it means low self-awareness, not necessarily all the time. 1:40:05 Yeah, well, I don't know, look at it. I guess it's the way you can look at this thing can sell it. 1:40:09 You should just look at the people who run the biggest companies in the world and the most successful ones. 1:40:14 And I think they fit exactly that. I don't think they have all this like weird, like, oh, but you're should and what about this? 1:40:21 And you may be right. You may be right. I'm just telling you. 1:40:25 Yeah, so see, I want to tell you, I think it's silly to for someone to invest into me when they could have just bought Bitcoin themselves. 1:40:33 And when in a way that is much better for them. And I think, you know, there's many, many, many, many reasons. 1:40:38 You know what I'm talking about? You know, you want to pay better for them to have more privacy. 1:40:43 You know what people used to tell me a lot when they buy Bitcoins from from us? 1:40:48 Everyone just always says, I don't get it. Why don't I buy from the exchange? 1:40:51 Right. And it's like, it's the fuck out of me. And I probably even know, but that's how I make money off people. 1:41:00 The fact that I have this asymmetric information of knowing how to do a brand of reliability. 1:41:05 It's that's a different thing. Not necessary. Not necessary. I understand completely why you would want to develop a relationship with a counterparty. 1:41:14 But at the end of the day, it's not that big of it's still kind of the same thing is the same thing. 1:41:19 There's some asymmetry there. And if I would want to be this whole, like, oh, but in college, it told us we should like, take care of people. 1:41:25 I'll be like, you know what, sir, why don't we sit down here and I'll show you how to open an account with Coinbase. 1:41:31 And that's the most honest way. And I'm not going to make any fucking money on buying any fucking guitars. 1:41:36 I'm telling you, that's called shit. Look, you know what we wanted to do? We need to go on the street right now. 1:41:42 You need to do some drugs. You need to fuck a few hookers. Go to a few brothels. Go a bit crazy, you know. 1:41:47 See how people run business in the real world. Go around like what people really do. Real life stuff. And then be like, yeah, now I get it. 1:41:54 I've already admitted that there's some merit to your position, but I'm just asking you if you understand what I'm saying, that why invest in a company that invest in BTC when they can do it themselves? 1:42:06 I don't know, man. You know what you understand? I'm just saying, do you see that there's also some merit in that argument? 1:42:12 I think that's stupid. 1:42:13 You don't see any at all? 1:42:15 I think that's stupid. 1:42:17 What if instead of putting it all in BTC, I just decided to put it all in some random screwball thing, like a Haitian penny stocks or something. 1:42:29 And I was like, look, if I lose this money, it wasn't mine. It was someone else's. 1:42:33 But I don't think it's stupid. 1:42:35 And if I make it, this thing could double up tomorrow. 1:42:38 Paul, I'm sorry. 1:42:40 I shouldn't be running a hedge fund. 1:42:42 Do you know who Michael Saylor is? 1:42:46 Yes. 1:42:48 Look, here's the thing right now. I think what that guy did was a bit risky with this allocation. 1:42:53 But dude, that's what you need to understand. 1:42:57 There's only 21 million of this. 1:42:59 It's not 100% the risk, but it's way more the risk than it was in 2012 or 2013. 1:43:05 Yeah, I think the fair value of Bitcoin is much higher. 1:43:08 I mean, we're going to get in trouble if we say this, but it's much higher than the current market price. 1:43:12 Anyway, that's not the point. 1:43:13 The point is that if you are some guy who runs a company, a fish shop, you run Nokia, you run fucking Logitech. 1:43:21 I don't know. 1:43:22 You run fucking Apple. 1:43:23 All right. 1:43:24 You need to have some fucking portion of whatever cash you have in Bitcoin. 1:43:27 It really makes sense. 1:43:28 You're in it if you don't do that. 1:43:29 So now when I'm talking with Paul here, who fucking knows Bitcoin better than I do, 1:43:33 and he's telling me that, well, I don't know if that makes a lot of sense. 1:43:36 And there's something wrong with you. 1:43:37 I don't know if it's like allowed. 1:43:39 You know, that's what I'm saying. 1:43:41 They invest in companies so that the company can supposedly run operations and generate revenue and profit. 1:43:50 When you have an investor, that's the conversation you have with your investors and the expectations that you have with your investor. 1:43:55 There's no like a rule book to this. 1:43:56 It's the same thing as fucking Bitcoin. 1:43:57 But that's what I was saying. 1:43:58 Wasn't that the first thing I said when you asked me the question? 1:44:01 I said it would depend on the investors. 1:44:03 I talked to the investor. 1:44:04 So the way I would see it, I would imagine, is that if someone. 1:44:08 I said, look, do you want me to? 1:44:10 I was like, I'm pretty sure that this Bitcoin thing is it's got legs. 1:44:13 So do you mind if I put some of that? 1:44:17 I don't think that's how you run a company. 1:44:19 I don't I don't think so. 1:44:20 You may be right. 1:44:21 I don't know. 1:44:22 I don't know how to run a company. 1:44:24 I'm not interested. 1:44:25 You know how to run a company is a lot of work. 1:44:27 It is. 1:44:28 But you know how I would run a company. 1:44:30 I'll tell you how to run a company. 1:44:31 No, you put my. 1:44:32 So the reason I'm running the company is just every day. 1:44:35 Just be like, whatever. 1:44:36 No. 1:44:37 But the thing is, like, the reason I am that ahead of the ship is because I know I 1:44:42 supposed to know something better than most of the other people in the world about 1:44:45 this thing I'm doing. 1:44:46 So if you put your money into me, I'm going to see how things go. 1:44:50 Because if you if you trust me, even if sometimes I have to make some obvious 1:44:54 decision is because I know how things go and I know the direction to go in. 1:44:57 That's why you're supposed to be a CEO. 1:44:59 And you somehow you feel that somehow tainted and you shouldn't. 1:45:04 Yes. 1:45:05 I know what you're right. 1:45:07 You know, I think you are. 1:45:08 You are right. 1:45:09 There's like an academic, like divine that because you can't. 1:45:17 But yeah, it makes sense what you're saying. 1:45:20 I think I could. 1:45:21 I think I could make a version of that work. 1:45:22 I could say, look, I don't know. 1:45:24 You know, I did. 1:45:26 I do the best I can. 1:45:27 Same as everyone. 1:45:28 But at the end of the day, it's my decision because I own the company. 1:45:32 So X, Y, Z is the plan. 1:45:35 Paul, you know what? 1:45:36 I think I can make that work. 1:45:37 You know, what's my favorite story from the Bible? 1:45:40 Is the return of the prophet. 1:45:41 Let me think. 1:45:42 Oh, I was. 1:45:44 Didn't you already hear me say that? 1:45:46 Tell that story. 1:45:47 No, don't let for me. 1:45:48 No, no, no. 1:45:49 Let me tell you why I like that story. 1:45:50 Right. 1:45:51 That's also my favorite story. 1:45:52 You know that before you said that? 1:45:53 No, I swear to God. 1:45:54 I was going to try to guess. 1:45:55 Are you serious? 1:45:56 Anyway. 1:45:57 Yes. 1:45:58 But do you want to know why? 1:45:59 Okay. 1:46:00 I feel like I should write down why it's my favorite. 1:46:01 I'll say it first. 1:46:03 So the thing is, let's just lay out the story of the prodigal son. 1:46:06 And I'll adapt it to modern times. 1:46:07 The story of the prodigal son. 1:46:08 There's this. 1:46:09 There's a rich father and one son demands. 1:46:12 I want to do it. 1:46:14 Okay. 1:46:15 So there's this father who has some money and he has two sons. 1:46:18 And he says, here's some money. 1:46:20 Do whatever you want with it. 1:46:21 One of the sons. 1:46:22 That's not what it says. 1:46:23 One son asks for the inheritance early. 1:46:25 That's an important point. 1:46:26 Just let me adapt it to modern times. 1:46:28 Okay. 1:46:29 One son. 1:46:30 So both of them get some money and one of them sits down. 1:46:33 No, the one does not. 1:46:34 And the other one takes all the money, goes off, and starts doing cook off stripper's 1:46:40 tits. 1:46:41 Right. 1:46:42 And he starts going crazy. 1:46:43 The point is one son asks for the inheritance early and blows it. 1:46:46 Whereas the other son is a loyal member of the household. 1:46:49 Exactly. 1:46:50 Helps the family farm. 1:46:51 So now it so happened that after a few years after just doing drugs and fucking hookers 1:46:57 and whatever, he gets in this weird position. 1:46:59 The guy is broke. 1:47:00 He gets in this weird position where he's feeding pigs, but somehow he cannot even eat 1:47:06 the food that he's feeding the pigs. 1:47:08 He's like the lowest a human being could be. 1:47:10 So through some other medical, they happen to... 1:47:13 He has the worst job ever. 1:47:14 The swineherd. 1:47:15 He has the worst job. 1:47:16 It's the lowest point you can have in society and everything. 1:47:19 It's the lowest in his life. 1:47:20 And now the thing is like for some way he gets connected to his father and he returns 1:47:24 back. 1:47:25 And now when he returns back, the father says, cut the fat kelp. 1:47:29 Right. 1:47:30 And then the young son goes like, hey dad, wait a minute. 1:47:32 What's happening here? 1:47:33 I was here with you all along. 1:47:35 I didn't spend my money. 1:47:36 I was out just sitting here nice. 1:47:37 I was doing everything. 1:47:38 And now this guy comes here and you cut the fat kelp. 1:47:43 And then he says, don't worry about it. 1:47:45 He says cut the fat. 1:47:46 He says cut the fat. 1:47:47 He's throwing a giant party and a feast to welcome the son home. 1:47:50 Exactly. 1:47:51 And he's going to take care of the son from now on. 1:47:53 That's what he needs. 1:47:54 And he says, you are lost and now you're found. 1:47:57 Now, you know why I like this story so much? 1:48:00 Because your first instinct is to think that you're one of the sons, but you're not. 1:48:06 You are the father. 1:48:09 You are the father. 1:48:10 I agree that the father is the point of view of the story. 1:48:13 And these are your two natures. 1:48:15 This is your academic nature, your intellect, which is very polished and whatever. 1:48:20 And there's so much to gain from that. 1:48:22 But then there's this other nature, which is you have to go out in the world and figure 1:48:27 out what the world is about. 1:48:28 And you have to go and feed. 1:48:29 You know, everyone knows feeding pigs is bad, but you have to understand that's what you 1:48:33 do. 1:48:34 And the thing is, you have to go and prostitute yourself in the world. 1:48:38 And then you have to forget yourself and realize, OK, I got it now. 1:48:43 And I think you are missing a bit of this whole product. 1:48:48 Terrible interpretation of the story. 1:48:51 I like the story is the one person takes inherence early and blows it because he is a loser. 1:48:59 And the other son is hardworking, conformance and is obedient and loyal. 1:49:05 Right. 1:49:06 But also productive and sort of prudent. 1:49:09 And the one son comes back. 1:49:11 And the father says, this is great. 1:49:14 The son's back. 1:49:16 And the other son's like, what about me? 1:49:17 I did all this work. 1:49:18 I was so loyal. 1:49:19 I didn't take I could have taken the inheritance, but I didn't. 1:49:23 And the father tells him to just shut his stupid fucking mouth because that's his brother 1:49:27 that he's talking about. 1:49:29 And that is why what I like about the story is we can. 1:49:33 It's something about human nature where you can try to. 1:49:39 Lay down these rules and control the people that you love. 1:49:45 And you can threaten to do all these things. 1:49:50 But ultimately, you you they've got you, they got you over a barrel. 1:49:54 They you know, you love them no matter what. 1:49:56 And I feel like the Bible is actually trying to warn you about that through the story. 1:50:03 That, you know. 1:50:06 Letting him have all the inheritance early and saying that he can't have any more. 1:50:11 That was actually kind of a silly thing to say. 1:50:14 Yeah, I'm totally different interpretation. 1:50:16 I think I think relationships and things. 1:50:19 Yeah, I think your interpretation is very literal. 1:50:21 I really think there is. 1:50:23 I told you I said a different way, but I think yours is just too literal. 1:50:26 And I think that's why it's wrong. 1:50:28 Anyway, the point is that the point is that. 1:50:30 Again, you're not going to learn how to do business. 1:50:32 Completely crazy. 1:50:33 That's the same. 1:50:34 I know. 1:50:35 I think that's true. 1:50:36 That was the point I was trying to make you. 1:50:37 Right. 1:50:38 And I think that. 1:50:39 Yeah, I agree with that. 1:50:40 That. 1:50:41 I mean, you can learn a lot of stuff. 1:50:42 That is. 1:50:43 People say that, like, there's no relationship at all. 1:50:46 You know what? 1:50:47 Dude, listen to me. 1:50:48 I'm in fucking college. 1:50:49 Right. 1:50:50 And I need to get an internship. 1:50:51 I need to get an internship. 1:50:52 So I pass. 1:50:53 So what do I do? 1:50:54 I play fucking poker for a whole summer in the dorms. 1:50:58 I'm playing with the kids in the morning and the kids in the afternoon, the way they 1:51:03 have their shifts to the work. 1:51:04 And I got a fake paper for that. 1:51:06 Right. 1:51:07 And I think I learned way more playing poker with people who are playing all they would 1:51:11 earn in a month. 1:51:12 Right. 1:51:13 And then you. 1:51:14 Yeah, I think that's fine. 1:51:15 And you are an entrepreneur. 1:51:17 Well, yeah, I've always thought that it's silly about the internship requirement. 1:51:20 You can always start your own company. 1:51:22 Your own intern. 1:51:23 So what I'm trying to say is that you learn more just seeing how people react to those 1:51:28 situations where their whole money was on the line and whatever. 1:51:31 You get to learn way more and you get to see, like, life isn't about the textbook. 1:51:35 Life is about sometimes you play the cash game near the toilet or whatever, where you 1:51:39 have to do it. 1:51:40 I agree that poker is a good metaphor for life, but I don't think that that refutes 1:51:47 the idea of classes on finance being relevant to business. 1:51:52 I think it does. 1:51:53 I think it's nice if people want to start, if people want to work in business, I would 1:51:57 prefer it if they knew some finance. 1:51:59 You know what the thing is, is the same way as like Jimi Hendrix never took a fucking 1:52:03 guitar lesson in his life. 1:52:05 You don't even know if that's true. 1:52:07 Well, how can you even know if that's true or not? 1:52:10 OK, but I know there are other people who said that themselves. 1:52:13 And it's pretty obvious they never took a guitar lesson in their life. 1:52:16 And the thing is. 1:52:17 I don't know if that's true for them either, but they might have been as far as I know. 1:52:21 The point is that the guy who plays classical music, he's kind of always played classical 1:52:26 music. 1:52:27 And then there's the guy who somehow gets this intuition, sometimes partly out of books, 1:52:32 sometimes out of everything else. 1:52:34 But he's trying to see what's up with the world. 1:52:36 And that's. 1:52:37 But this is now turned into a different conversation. 1:52:39 Certainly the person who learns guitar by themselves, they still learned guitar and 1:52:45 they know something about scales and chords, even if they don't use those words. 1:52:49 So similarly, someone who's self-taught in business, they would learn some version of 1:52:54 finance 101 in their head. 1:52:56 It wouldn't be. 1:52:57 They may not use the same words, but they would learn the same concepts. 1:53:00 They would rediscover them from scratch and maybe they would maybe improve on them. 1:53:06 I'm just saying that there's no. 1:53:09 The difference. 1:53:10 The difference is. 1:53:12 Someone like Elon Musk would understand why. 1:53:15 It's. 1:53:16 It's. 1:53:17 They would understand my argument about if he lent me money to start my business, he 1:53:23 would want me to be working on the business. 1:53:25 He wouldn't want me to just invest in BTC and do nothing. 1:53:28 Yeah, I don't think that is what he would understand that implicitly, even if he never 1:53:33 took finance. 1:53:34 I don't think I was longing for it up for the point of just investing in BTC and doing 1:53:38 nothing. 1:53:39 I was just trying to understand. 1:53:40 It's a distraction. 1:53:42 I don't think that's true. 1:53:43 I don't think that's true. 1:53:44 I think you should be using the money to run the operations of the business. 1:53:48 Right. 1:53:49 I think. 1:53:50 I think the fact that I think we never had this in human history. 1:53:54 This weird asset like this. 1:53:56 I know. 1:53:57 I totally agree with that. 1:53:58 I completely agree. 1:53:59 So like this is the weirdest thing ever. 1:54:01 And when you understand what I'm saying. 1:54:03 Yeah. 1:54:04 But you're wrong. 1:54:05 It's. 1:54:06 No, but the ROI in BTC is so high that you shouldn't even start a company. 1:54:10 No, that's stupid. 1:54:11 Sorry. 1:54:12 The point is that the reason why I still think you should. 1:54:15 You know how right now. 1:54:17 So like, let's say I'm an investor. 1:54:19 Right. 1:54:20 And you start a tech company and all of a sudden you tell me that you don't know how 1:54:22 to use like Linux or something. 1:54:24 I'm like, whoa, whoa. 1:54:26 I'm not going to invest. 1:54:27 Yes. 1:54:28 Fine. 1:54:29 It's a minimal amount of literacy. 1:54:31 And I feel like having money in Bitcoin. 1:54:33 No, but don't you understand that Bitcoin is a competing investment to the company. 1:54:37 It's a competitor. 1:54:39 It's not. 1:54:40 Every dollar you invest in Bitcoin. 1:54:42 You can't invest in the company. 1:54:44 Yeah. 1:54:45 But here's the thing right now. 1:54:46 The point is that you're right. 1:54:48 As a company, you are actually competing with Bitcoin. 1:54:51 You literally are. 1:54:52 Because the opportunity cost is. 1:54:54 Thank you. 1:54:55 Yeah. 1:54:56 I'm not disagreeing with that. 1:54:57 OK. 1:54:58 But the hope is. 1:54:59 And you can't win. 1:55:00 You won't win unless there's one or two people like the exchanges. 1:55:02 But. 1:55:03 Yes. 1:55:04 But you basically cannot win. 1:55:06 Here's the thing, Paul. 1:55:08 I think in 1939 or something like that, around 1920s or whatever, they started exploiting 1:55:09 oil. 1:55:10 Correct. 1:55:11 Something like that. 1:55:12 Around that time. 1:55:14 That was before the Henry Ford's Model T was like 1910 or something like that. 1:55:16 I'll come back. 1:55:18 Why was that recorded there? 1:55:20 Was that Model what? 1:55:22 I said Henry Ford's Model T, didn't I? 1:55:24 Anyway, at some point they had those things that like take oil off the ground. 1:55:28 Right. 1:55:29 That's when they started being invented. 1:55:31 So I'm sure there were a lot of people who were like, do we buy oil or do we build some 1:55:36 companies that are going to like somehow do things with this and outlast and even outperform 1:55:41 even the oil? 1:55:43 And that's what everyone is trying to do right now. 1:55:45 Well, some of them, some of them just want to do fun projects, which I think that's what 1:55:49 you're trying to classify Blockstream as. 1:55:51 I don't think that this metaphor of Bitcoin being oil would stand up at all. 1:55:55 There's no oil. 1:55:57 It was hard to get oil. 1:55:59 You had to buy land and like dig it out and you had to store it. 1:56:02 This is like a very different thing. 1:56:03 Yeah. 1:56:04 You're right about it. 1:56:06 I don't think that the return on investment for buying raw oil was anything like, would 1:56:13 ever anything be like BTC because you buy the oil and then someone else digs a different 1:56:18 oil well somewhere. 1:56:20 It's interchangeable oil. 1:56:21 Forget about oil. 1:56:22 It's never fixed supply. 1:56:23 So you've never even heard of Bitcoin. 1:56:25 I'm never, ever going to make any metaphors with you. 1:56:27 You're too fucking literal. 1:56:29 Anyway, here's the thing right now. 1:56:30 The point is that there are going to be some companies, there just will, that are going 1:56:37 to outperform Bitcoin. 1:56:39 Do you think that's true or not in the next five years? 1:56:41 You know, it's difficult to like even say yes to that. 1:56:47 Wow. 1:56:48 But if you say no to that. 1:56:50 Five to 10 years, I would say maybe one or two. 1:56:53 There'll be a few. 1:56:55 There'll be like a handful, sure. 1:56:57 What about the next 20 years? 1:56:58 Well, BTC eventually has to like, it will either get a thumbs up or a thumbs down from 1:57:06 the world. 1:57:08 You know what I mean? 1:57:09 Like it's either going to explode into the world. 1:57:11 It did already. 1:57:13 And it will, or it will crash to zero. 1:57:15 So that's what's crazy about it. 1:57:17 You're not answering my question. 1:57:19 Do you think there's going to be companies that, Bitcoin is alive. 1:57:21 I'll tell you this. 1:57:23 In 2015, I would have absolutely said no way there will be any company that has the ROI. 1:57:28 Now, the fact that it's already. 1:57:30 You're already proven wrong. 1:57:32 Well, which is just a few exchanges, right? 1:57:34 Like that's it. 1:57:36 I don't understand how you're throwing this few exchanges out like it's a bad thing. 1:57:39 Like, yeah, that's not the business that makes sense right now. 1:57:41 I don't understand what's wrong with it. 1:57:43 I think you're right that it's true. 1:57:45 That's fair and square. 1:57:47 They use their knowledge of Bitcoin to make even more money than. 1:57:49 Yes, I think that's fair. 1:57:51 What do you say? 1:57:53 Yeah, I mean. 1:57:54 But do you think there's going to be like some other thing that's like that? 1:57:56 Dude. 1:57:57 What's going to happen with computers, with everything, man? 1:57:59 No, because there was no competing like thing that you could buy. 1:58:03 That's the issue. 1:58:05 That's not a central issue. 1:58:07 You're right. 1:58:08 The point I'm trying to make is that actually there was some guy at some point that invented something in a way. 1:58:12 Right. 1:58:13 And they're going to be other people who do this. 1:58:15 OK, and they're going to be some people who are going to create companies that are bigger than they just have to be. 1:58:19 Because otherwise, Bitcoin is not going to go up if these companies don't exist because there's no infrastructure and shit going around. 1:58:25 Right. 1:58:26 And whoever is going to build those companies, those are going to be the people. 1:58:29 Now, the same thing with the Internet. 1:58:31 And I know you're trying to say that there was no alternative and whatever. 1:58:33 But everyone that starts a company thinks theirs is going to be the one that grows exponentially. 1:58:37 Right. 1:58:39 That's what a startup is, among other things. 1:58:41 I don't know. 1:58:42 Maybe. 1:58:43 Sure. 1:58:44 I don't understand why. 1:58:46 Some people like to some people like to run like a boutique. 1:58:48 They're called losers. 1:58:50 Small thing. 1:58:51 No, you can make a higher ROI on capital because you use less capital. 1:58:54 Yeah, Paul, but at the end of the day. 1:58:56 I think it's an illusion. 1:58:58 These people want to make the big unicorn tech companies. 1:59:00 I don't know. 1:59:01 People think that's super, super cool. 1:59:03 I don't respect it as much as other people do. 1:59:05 I think you don't. 1:59:07 But you know what? 1:59:09 I think there's roughly about the same chances of finding the love of your life. 1:59:12 But people still go out there and try to find it because it's cool. 1:59:15 People, I don't know. 1:59:17 People think that's a flaw. 1:59:19 You have dating sites and you have filters. 1:59:21 And I think that chops it within sort of realm of being possible. 1:59:25 Well, I want to stick around now. 1:59:27 I use the exact words. 1:59:29 Finding the love of your life. 1:59:31 You're telling me on what people settle. 1:59:33 People sell on fucking a lot. 1:59:35 Settle. 1:59:36 Yeah. 1:59:37 Well, you're saying there's only one soulmate out there. 1:59:39 But it's randomly distributed to the population. 1:59:41 No, that's not what I say. 1:59:43 But right. 1:59:44 So let's say right now I'm trying to find love in my life. 1:59:46 Right. 1:59:47 She has to be female. 1:59:48 Half of the world. 1:59:49 Right. 1:59:50 I don't want her to be specific heights because, you know, whatever. 1:59:52 OK. 1:59:53 Done. 1:59:54 I want her to be very some different types of hair. 1:59:56 OK. 1:59:58 Now, after all of these things. 2:00:00 Right. 2:00:01 And now, again, I want her to know how to maybe cook some specific foods. 2:00:03 I want her to have the same diet as me. 2:00:05 I want her to, you know, to do this. 2:00:07 I want her to, like, have a certain personality. 2:00:09 I'd like her to be that. 2:00:11 I also want her to be smart in certain ways. 2:00:13 I would also care for her to know about music. 2:00:15 I have all these fucking things. 2:00:17 This would be the love of my life. 2:00:18 Right. 2:00:19 So do you understand right now? 2:00:20 There's probably like. 2:00:22 And that's not for me, for anyone. 2:00:24 But you have to really be honest and, like, really shoot for. 2:00:26 Yes. 2:00:27 Ten thousand. 2:00:28 Ten thousand women on the plan. 2:00:30 It's probably the chance of me finding that woman. 2:00:31 It's slim to nothing. 2:00:32 Right. 2:00:33 That's to know. 2:00:34 But if there's ten thousand, then there's more. 2:00:36 Of that's just any one of them would do. 2:00:38 They would be the ideal. 2:00:40 So that's the numerator, not the denominator. 2:00:42 No, I agree with you. 2:00:44 But the point is, like, finding that person that the likelihood is very low. 2:00:47 Right. 2:00:48 Because wherever they're distributed on the map and whatever. 2:00:51 Anyway, why do I try a metaphor? 2:00:53 I was saying you could use tech. 2:00:55 You would have ways of. 2:00:57 You could meet at a concert where you have a similar interest. 2:01:00 You have these dating apps. 2:01:02 There are ways that it's not an independent roll of a dice. 2:01:05 It's just ten thousand. 2:01:07 So how is this startup different than that? 2:01:09 That's the point I'm trying to make here. 2:01:11 It's not. 2:01:12 OK, it's not. 2:01:13 It's not an independent roll of the dice because some people are just. 2:01:15 Legitimately more skilled. 2:01:17 There's a lot of luck is involved, but some people are more skilled and it's not just. 2:01:21 Some people just don't give up. 2:01:23 Startup. 2:01:24 That's the thing with startups. 2:01:26 Some people are willing to do anything. 2:01:28 It takes humanly possible. 2:01:30 Something even some even break the law. 2:01:32 And that's those are the people who are going to build a unicorn. 2:01:35 Now you are asking why would you do this? 2:01:37 I think I was saying, right. 2:01:39 I'm not willing to do that much work. 2:01:41 I like to just play in 64. 2:01:43 And chill out. 2:01:45 That's fine. 2:01:46 So there's nothing wrong with that, by the way. 2:01:48 So why can't I just do that and then just tweet it blocks for you? 2:01:51 I think you can do whatever you want. 2:01:53 I'm still going to podcast with you and I'm not into talking about those things with you. 2:01:56 So it's not like I'm judging you in any way. 2:01:58 OK, but. 2:02:00 As far as the existential purpose of Drivechains and Hivemind more to what my interest and I thought it was more interesting. 2:02:09 That is the biggest tragedy you can do in your life. 2:02:11 So the biggest tragedy I can do in my life. 2:02:14 What if I jumped off this balcony to my death 10 seconds from now? 2:02:17 OK. 2:02:18 You mean I'm trying to say, like, as far as if you know how Pinocchio gets born and whatever. 2:02:26 I do. 2:02:27 Imagine like right now, Hivemind or this kind of you're going to I know you're going to. 2:02:32 I'm a real I'm a real protocol. 2:02:35 I'm a real protocol. 2:02:37 Anyway, if they would come back right now, we had we have biblical and nursery rhyme references. 2:02:45 If that's what you wanted out of a podcast. 2:02:47 Pinocchio is a very strong, very, very strong and archetypical and so much and so dense. 2:02:55 Really? 2:02:56 You don't think so? 2:02:58 I honestly I don't think so. 2:02:59 I honestly I you may be right. 2:03:01 I never really given it that much thought. 2:03:03 Dude, why are you talking about like like like the Pinocchio, what he represents to Geppetto, 2:03:08 the father figure, how he does this thing, how he goes in the world, how he gets knowledge. 2:03:12 Anyway, anyway, that's not the point. 2:03:14 The point is that archetypal. 2:03:16 I don't have one like the fighter figure that does the fighter figure and how he the relationship 2:03:21 with and then the other archetypal. 2:03:22 Characters that come there, there's the guy who teach him to smoke. 2:03:25 Anyway, that's not the point. 2:03:27 The friends, the betrayal, the ways you do in life. 2:03:29 Anyway, that's not the point. 2:03:31 The point is, the point is that if Drivechain could talk or whatever, he would think that 2:03:35 that you that would be the you would need to know if that would be their child. 2:03:40 You would need to know. 2:03:42 And the way you would nurture it, you would have to take out the hardness, the hardness 2:03:46 of the relationship. 2:03:47 You would need to know. 2:03:49 And the way you would nurture it, you would have to take out the hardness, 2:03:52 the hardship of being a founder and even a CEO and take these responsibilities 2:03:57 so a child could grow. 2:03:59 Because of what you do when you have a kid also. 2:04:01 Like the kid comes in, he's a baby and he's like, shit, I need to earn money for this kid. 2:04:05 Shit, I need to do these things. 2:04:07 Shit, I need to do things I didn't like to do anymore. 2:04:09 Shit, I need to change my moral. 2:04:11 Shit, I need to do shit. 2:04:13 This kid needs to survive until it does. 2:04:14 So that's why I feel it's it's if you see it, that's how I would see it. 2:04:18 Because it is your career. 2:04:20 You did use the word when you talk with me. 2:04:22 I invented. 2:04:24 You said at some point, I think you're referring to blind marriage mining. 2:04:27 But I think you do feel you are in a creator's position towards your projects 2:04:33 and whatever and everyone else. 2:04:35 But, you know, ideas, you know, they exist in an infinite. 2:04:38 Canvas of possibility, and they are also not sentient humans with feelings. 2:04:44 So we don't need to care very much if they if they never are born. 2:04:48 There's not as much. 2:04:50 But I'm working on a drive. 2:04:52 I'm not saying you're not. 2:04:55 I'm not accusing you or not, by the way. 2:04:57 I was just trying to say, like, yeah. 2:04:59 The hardship of a founder. 2:05:01 Yeah. And you know what? I mean, that sounds terrible. I really I if we would be in the same city, I would really want to do mushrooms that you talk about this thing. I really do. I want to do a lot because probably you have to go to one of the three cities in America where it is decriminalized. Anyway, I think you should like whatever you take, revisit this thought. And I think the drive him will talk to you. I swear to God, I think it will. If you ever do it. Okay, great. Yeah. 2:05:28 But yeah, but the critic, I mean, you have to do it, you know, during the sunlight. So I don't know when you have to do it. I don't know. Maybe I'm just crazy about this thing. And I'll I'll have to I have to admit something. This is how I think things should be done in the world. And there's a lot of projection on on things here. Right. And from my side. So I have to admit that. Right. That's how I think anything could be solved. And it's build a company or something. And that I didn't think this. Yeah. Like, that's kind of weird. That's weird. Don't you think? Why is it weird about it? 2:05:58 That's the ultimate thing you could do at the ultimate thing you could do. Build a company. I don't know. Like, I think so. Yeah, I think that's the founder. What about the founder of Buddhism? I mean, I think there are a lot of things you can do. You look first man on the moon. Come on. Like, there are other things you could do. What about what about Jimi Hendrix? You're right, Paul. Where's his company? Oh, gotcha there. Oh, with the twisting of the knife. You're right. Oh, Jimi Hendrix. You're very right about that. 2:06:28 You're right. You don't have to build a business for everything. But the things we specially talk about, and we find interesting, and the context of the current world we live in right now, and the fact that Bitcoin is this 2:06:58 native way of pricing things in, which is clearly connected to energy, the energy of the world. And I mean that, because it's always pricing in a thermodynamic context, right? It really feels like a lot of things you're going to do right now, they have to be done through the prism of business. Look, if you want to start a band, if you want to start your piano, I don't know, maybe it doesn't. But I would even argue even starting a band right now needs to be done like a business, if you ask me. Because Jimi Hendrix was a business. 2:07:27 Yeah, but aren't you just folding everything into business now? And I think it's good. Oh, yeah, when he painted that painting, he painted it like someone starting a business. 2:07:38 Yeah, and you know why I think that's true? 2:07:40 I know, but now isn't it going to lose its meaning? 2:07:42 No, no, it's not. No, it's not. Because the main thing about Bitcoin was that it prices things in. That's the whole thing. Now we have this great thing to price in every aspect of reality. 2:07:53 No, that's not the fundamental part. It happened to have a fee market that you would pay in BTC. But that was not really the most important thing about it. 2:08:01 What's the most important thing about it that you care about it? 2:08:04 Well, I don't want to rank them like that. But let me see. 2:08:07 First thing that pops in your mind. 2:08:09 The most important thing about Bitcoin was slowly distributing it every 10 minutes, in a completely impersonal way. That made it its own thing. And it wasn't just Satoshi's wacko project, and he could make all of his friends rich. 2:08:39 It gave it an objective existence. But again, I don't have a bunch of reasons like ranks from one to 10. There are a lot of things that make it important. But that's the thing that pops into my head as being the craziest. 2:08:51 I think your observation is really interesting. And it plays out so importantly that we got to the point where this is so great. 2:08:59 Otherwise, people would learn about it like four years later, and they would think, I can't. But with it slowly being released, then everyone can say, this was fair. 2:09:08 You're right. And that was an innovation, an architectural innovation, if you may. And I think you're very right to point out one. That's one I would rank very high also. 2:09:16 But my point was that I wasn't trying to say like, from that point of view, my point was that what purpose does BTC, regardless of the intention of the creator or whatever, what purpose does it serve in human life, human existence? 2:09:29 And I think you at your Hivemind project would say that it's a good tool to price things in because there's no censorship resistance. 2:09:38 Because there's many frictions are removed, normal friction, there will be all these things, transaction costs, taxes, whatever, there'll be all this stuff. 2:09:46 So I know for a fact that you see there isn't any, that's just what you see is what you get. 2:09:52 And I know for a fact that you also agree that markets can solve a lot of problems. You picked a specific one with the Hivemind one. 2:10:00 Yes, I have a specific favorite example. 2:10:02 But you know that, oh, sorry, go on with it if you want. 2:10:06 Well, I was saying I have this favorite examples of like the elections, the CEO type thing of being that really important situation where you would want to get information from markets. 2:10:20 So that is, those are examples that I like. 2:10:23 Yeah, so those are some tradition markets. Well, I think that if Bitcoin is going to grow in the next 50 years, 100 years, I think that I think something that is going to happen is just so obvious is going to happen. 2:10:33 And I think the context is going to get extended even more to other areas of things and weird abstractions and other market dynamics and markets of this, interacting with markets of this, yada, yada. 2:10:44 So then it only makes sense that everything is going to get priced in in BTC because it's just a better way of doing it. 2:10:52 So then everything will have an economic incentive and everything will be like a business and everything will be based on some incentivization of some sort. 2:11:00 So that's why the people who are going to play music, they're going to get priced in BTC somehow. 2:11:04 Everyone in the world is going to get priced in BTC. 2:11:07 Right. And that's why I think it makes a lot of sense that if you want to be an artist, like if we start a band right now. 2:11:13 Let's say we start a band. It has to have some economic incentive to some degree. 2:11:17 I don't know what we're going to do with this podcast, but this podcast, if it becomes somehow big, which you said you don't want it, it will it will just it will have some form of that because it will get priced in BTC somehow. 2:11:29 Right. So that's why I do think everything becomes a business. 2:11:33 Everything was always a business, every type of from the first time a person exchanges stick for a blowjob or whatever the fuck they did in the old days. 2:11:40 Right. That was a business nature. 2:11:43 It was a business of one. 2:11:44 OK, blah, blah, blah. You're going to make everything into a business. 2:11:46 Now, I'm not going to make everything do it. 2:11:48 Things are not business. 2:11:51 Friendship is not a business, even though if you want, you can extend that context. 2:11:55 Also, like, well, there's people give their time or whatever, but it's not there's some not business type incentives. 2:12:03 Playing guitar by yourself is not a business, right? 2:12:06 Meditation by yourself. 2:12:08 It's not meditation with other people is not a business. 2:12:10 So I don't think every mushroom is by yourself. 2:12:13 Yes. I don't think not a business. 2:12:15 I don't think everything is a business. 2:12:16 But I think a lot of human interaction, a big part of it that has to agree with you that it's business is a very authentic thing because both people are selfish and focused. 2:12:27 So that is a very authentic kind of. 2:12:32 It's weird because a lot of people would say the reverse. 2:12:34 A lot of people would say that business is cutthroat, people are lying and that they should instead be friends. 2:12:39 A lot of people would say that, you know what I mean? 2:12:41 Right. The communists would say that. 2:12:44 But you know why they say that? 2:12:47 They don't know anything about communism. 2:12:49 No, it's because all the businesses, they worked on this weird money and the incentives and they could lobby certain groups and they could influence certain laws and whatever. 2:13:00 Right. Like cigarette companies and whatever. 2:13:01 But if everything would be into Bitcoin and would get priced in, you couldn't do this anymore. 2:13:06 The problem, here's the thing, greed isn't the problem. 2:13:10 The problem is greed. 2:13:11 You can have honest greed. 2:13:12 Bitcoin made greed honest. 2:13:14 Right. No, I don't think Bitcoin is enough for that. 2:13:16 But I think maybe, you know, Bitcoin plus Hivemind plus like four or five other things. 2:13:21 Yeah. But when I see this, I told you, you see, that's why you're an asshole sometimes. 2:13:25 When you, when you, when I wanted to say how this cosmic narrative, an extension of Bitcoin and why Hivemind was interesting, that's what I was, I consider this also Bitcoin because an extension of it and an iteration towards it. 2:13:36 Or maybe it's not going to be Hivemind because you don't want to take the, the, what's it called? 2:13:41 The founder's hardship. 2:13:43 So it's probably going to be some other person which you're going to hit on, like the same way you hit on Blockstream, right on the back. 2:13:48 Maybe. 2:13:50 Oh, I would like it if they would just, if they would just copy the idea exactly as is, I think I could find in my heart to support them. 2:13:58 But see, this is the problem. 2:13:59 But they're going to inject all their stupid crap into it and ruin it. 2:14:02 It's not stupid crap, Paul. 2:14:04 You're the stupid one for taking this. 2:14:06 Maybe. 2:14:07 Here's the thing. 2:14:07 Let's say right now, I ask you to design me a, let's say I ask you to design me a guitar, right? 2:14:13 Let's say that. 2:14:14 And you do it in your 3D Studio Max thing. 2:14:17 You do this, you do all the mechanics, whatever. 2:14:21 And now I'm going to build it because I have the wood. 2:14:24 There's going to be some things you don't know about wood. 2:14:28 You may know them theoretically. 2:14:29 So that's what's happening. 2:14:31 That's what's going to happen. 2:14:32 No, but that's different than what I'm worried about. 2:14:35 Go on, what you're worried about, Paul. 2:14:37 Um, no, I, certain changes could certainly be improvements and as a result of being more specific and specialization, that's fine. 2:14:48 I just don't think, I think people will, at the level of the design, wreck it. 2:14:53 Well, so far, no one has, people today have terrible, absolutely, unbelievably terrible Oracle stuff to this day. 2:15:02 And, um, so why don't they just copy what I did, which would be much better. 2:15:08 I don't think they understand what you're doing. 2:15:10 Yeah. 2:15:11 Right. 2:15:11 So that's what I'm sort of worried about. 2:15:15 Then even more of an argument that you need to make sure that's done properly, you know? 2:15:18 I don't know. 2:15:19 Like, it seems like a mess. 2:15:21 It seems like everyone at Bitcoin would hate it anyway, at this point. 2:15:25 Who cares, man? 2:15:26 Everyone hates you anyway. 2:15:27 I know they already do. 2:15:28 Why do you care about it? 2:15:29 At least, at least give them a reason, you know, because you're the, you need to have like supporters or something, you know, you need to have like some kind of momentum. 2:15:39 You're not going to have supporters without a logo. 2:15:42 You know that very well. 2:15:44 Everyone has a little logo. 2:15:46 People can, there's a little hexagon with a B. 2:15:50 Yeah. 2:15:51 There you go. 2:15:51 That's just the logo. 2:15:53 Like the logo, literally, it's not the logo metaphor. 2:15:55 Got it. 2:15:56 I don't know, man. 2:15:57 I don't know. 2:15:57 I don't know. 2:15:58 We got in this tangent again and look, whatever. 2:16:02 Okay. 2:16:04 Perfect. 2:16:04 So yeah, I mean, we do have some other ones here, but they're like, no, not really. 2:16:11 I mean, yeah, I guess we can sign out now. 2:16:16 We don't have a way to do that, though. 2:16:18 Yes, we do. 2:16:19 What is it? 2:16:19 Okay, great. 2:16:20 Yeah. 2:16:20 Good luck with that.
