0:00 Hi, I'm Orkun. I'm in Istanbul, Turkey. I'm based here in an emerging country. ChainWay Labs, our company, we founded one and a half years ago. We are a bunch of engineers coming from Turkey. 0:12 For the last one and a half years, we've built several different products, one on privacy, one on Bitcoin wallets. 0:20 And for the last one year, we were working on a ZK Rollup solution on Bitcoin, which evolved a lot during the process with the invention of BitVM by Robin, which I will talk in more detail. 0:32 But this is basically the background of me and my team. 0:36 Cool. My initial skepticism towards your company was based on the fact that your announcement indicated to me, seemed to me, to say you already have a working LayerTwo that settles on Bitcoin, and I don't think you actually do have a working LayerTwo that already settles on Bitcoin. 1:03 Can you clarify that? 1:05 Sure. I can talk about what we are working for the last one year and what this announcement also indicates. I think I can pin Tversen to this space, but I need to figure out how during that time I can talk. 1:23 So basically, last year, we built a Bitcoin wallet, which also supports Ordinals. It was an extension wallet. And during that time, we realized that, OK, we know ZK well, and we learned Bitcoin scripts as much as possible. We learned taproot. 1:37 So what if we can build some kind of client-side validated protocol using ZKP to enable different financial things that can have Bitcoin security, right? Basically, like an RGB, like other protocols, but we wanted to use ZK to have as much scalability as possible. 1:56 So initially, we started with a redacted paper in August. I also tried to find a tweet of that. So initially, our idea was to build a CSV solution. It was like, technically, it was Solr and ZK rollup, which is a rollup that uses Bitcoin as a data availability layer. 2:18 I just shared the announcement there. So it was basically a protocol that we started to build. During that time, we were integrating the RPC endpoints, building the storage module. And in a quick time, I can say three or four months, we built some CSV protocols running on Bitcoin. And I'm also pinning that thing that is on September 29, if I'm not mistaken. 2:47 Yeah. Here it is. 3:17 But I don't know if there – you said Sovereign Rollup, and then you switched. I don't know if we're still talking about Sovereign Rollup or not. And I bet that probably a lot of people listening don't know either, if the project you most recently mentioned is something that is – see, because we all are very familiar with what the Bitcoin technology, like what the Bitcoin scripting language can and can't do. 3:39 And there's certain things that it can do, and there's no reason to make an announcement about those, because they already exist. And there's the things that it can't do, and then there's no reason to make an announcement about that either. I don't know. Can you – do you understand what I'm trying to say here? 3:56 Yeah, I was just going through that. The Sovereign thing was a previous construction that we have. It was a client-side-validated protocol. But after this announcement, a week after that, Robin basically invented BitVM. And the first thing that people say, as you know, like, can this enable two-way packs? 4:13 Also, SuperNet's question was that in the BitVM builders group, for example, he was much more skeptical than anyone else. But he started building template circuits since day zero, and he was the first builder that actually did a BitVM implementation, right? During those times, we started researching about BitVM. And we just went to, for example, Bitcoin Amsterdam. Also, I think we met there with you, Paul. I can't exactly remember, but we just went there to meet with Robin and Lukas to learn more about BitVM. 4:43 How this can enable two-way packs, how we can verify ZKPs here. So, after that point, basically, we immediately converted from client-side-validated protocol to actual roll-up. And since that date, we are working on it. 4:58 And as you can see on the pinned tweet, there is a functionality that we are sending transaction through an EVM wallet, and the data that transaction needs is inscribed in Bitcoin, basically with the proof on it. And we are reading from Bitcoin, and you can see the explorer link there also. 5:15 And recently, we verified a ZK proof in BitVM, Grow16 proof. It is also the first pinned tweet of SuperTesla. A week ago, we verified Grow16 with 20 billion cycles in BitVM. And yesterday, we managed to make it 4 billion with adding two new instructions, which is 8-bit left shift and 8-bit right shift. 5:37 And at this point, we already have proof on Bitcoin, living in Bitcoin, 5 or 6 months ago. Right now, we verified the proof in BitVM. So, basically, this is the whole concept of ZK roll-up that needs to have a ZK roll-up. 5:54 And we basically done it. And this, basically, announcement says, okay, we managed to do it and we are committed to doing it. These are the things that we need to get solved with sidechains. Also, this includes drivechains. How we can solve these problems and what is our approach? This is basically the summary of the post that we shared. 6:13 Okay, great. 6:22 If I could summarize, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from here. 6:30 So, my objection to your initial announcement was that you say you already have an execution layer. 6:38 And I think perhaps you're trying to defend that remark by saying that you do have an execution layer. 6:47 First, you put the data on Bitcoin. Then you validate the data using the Grow16 function. 6:53 And that's it. 6:55 And then it's executed. 7:00 Oh, oh, no. 7:08 Okay, wait. You guys got cut off there for me and you became connecting. 7:13 And now you're both speaker muted. 7:17 Now you seem to be back. 7:23 Hmm. 7:25 I don't hear anyone now. 7:27 I don't know why the software is so buggy, given that it's very popular. 7:32 Maybe it's just me. I don't know. 7:34 Can anyone else hear anyone? 7:38 Oh. 7:44 Hmm. 7:47 Seems we lost SupertestNet, at least. 7:49 I just disconnected. I don't know why. 7:52 Can you hear me? 7:54 Yeah, I can hear you now. 7:56 You and he and a couple, plenty of other people in the audience just switched to connecting, I saw. 8:03 And hopefully they'll be back. 8:07 The, I don't know why, you know, I would think, I'm sure Elon is on it. 8:13 But this is honestly like a lot of, I know an awful lot of important people are hanging out on spaces, including presidential candidates and whatnot. 8:20 I don't know why they don't put a little bit more effort. 8:25 Okay. Yes, you're back. 8:27 Great. 8:28 The last thing I heard you say was something about trying to defend that statement and then something else. 8:34 Yeah, I think I can summarize what you said and try and frame it as a perhaps answer to my initial question. 8:45 So what I'm trying to get at is, does the code work? 8:50 Do you already have a execution layer that settles on Bitcoin? 8:54 And I think you could summarize, or I'm going to summarize what I think might be an answer to that. 8:59 I'm asking for your clarification on it. 9:02 It sounds like you're saying, well, yes, we do. 9:04 We do have an execution layer that settles on Bitcoin because we've already shown that you can put the data on Bitcoin. 9:09 We showed that in September. 9:11 And now we're showing that Bitcoin can, using BitVM, we can actually validate the proof. 9:16 And once you have the data on chain and it's validated, that's executed, you're done. 9:23 So is that a fair summary of what you're trying to demonstrate here? 9:28 Yeah, that is actually the core of my point. 9:31 We obviously have some missing points. 9:33 For example, we need to combine these two in the code, actually, not separate the process. 9:38 But overall, yeah, we have an execution that is ZK proven and we have a verifier on Bitcoin in BitVM that verifies the ZK proof. 9:47 Okay. 9:50 Well, that's fair enough for me. 9:52 Then I retract my entire criticism and I publicly apologize. 9:56 You guys satisfied me. 9:58 You do have what you claim you have, and it was not a lie. 10:01 Good job. 10:03 Sorry, Paul, continue. 10:08 I was just thinking that maybe you should explain more in detail the difference between what you thought they had and what they do have. 10:22 Yeah, so I thought they had a blockchain that BitVM validates the transactions on it. 10:33 And then, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say I thought they had that. 10:37 I thought they claimed to have that. 10:39 And it's like a separate blockchain from Bitcoin that you put transactions on there and then BitVM validates them. 10:46 And that's not what they're claiming. 10:48 They're actually using Bitcoin itself as the data available. 10:52 They call it data availability layer. 10:54 They're just putting all the transactions on Bitcoin. 10:57 So since that's their claim, that fits with what they said in their paper, and I misunderstood it. 11:02 And I should have read more carefully before making wild accusations about people lying. 11:07 So I apologize. 11:10 Well, maybe. 11:12 But I think it's very hard to – like what is the audience here when – like I don't know exactly what it's like for a normal person to hear something like the first ZK rollup that settles on Bitcoin. 11:29 When you think of a rollup, you would think that the underlying data is not on the Bitcoin L1 because sort of the whole point of the rollup is not to do that. 11:42 So I'm not saying that anything is misleading or whatever. 11:47 I'm just saying it's kind of very confusing. 11:49 No, no. 11:51 Maybe I can clarify some points there if you have a little mistake there. 11:56 So basically in rollups, there are two different approaches to put the data on Bitcoin blockchain. 12:02 I call the rollups execution shards because they basically offload the execution but not offload the data and settlements because that makes an L2 secure basically. 12:16 A global L2, universal L2 secure. 12:21 In our current architecture, we are creating a ZK proof from a bunch of transactions. 12:27 And the ZK proofs output what we call state gifts, which is basically the difference between the previous storage slots and the latest storage slots. 12:37 So we are compressing thousands of transactions. 12:40 Let's say there's an AMM on Citraya and you made 100 transactions. 12:44 There is only one data, one storage slot that changes. 12:49 So this is only basically we scaled, let's say, thousands because of that. 12:54 We are putting data thousands less times more than we actually must put to Bitcoin. 13:00 This is where execution shards rollups can be helpful. 13:03 This is something I needed to clarify. 13:06 And this proof is getting verified with BitVM. 13:09 Also, it is inscribed in Bitcoin so that if you are running a node, you don't need any other network connection. 13:14 You can just look at the Bitcoin blockchain, get the proof and validate it with some mathematical function, which we call verifier. 13:27 Yeah, I have criticisms of this approach on the grounds that using Bitcoin as a data dump for this type of stuff is inefficient and etc. 13:39 But that's separate. It's not a scam to say you're doing X. 13:44 And if you're actually doing X and you are, you're doing what you say you are. 13:48 So even though I don't like it, it's not a scam. 13:54 Thank you for the apologies. 13:55 Also, this is pretty like it's extremely kind to hear that. 13:59 I also feel your concerns. 14:01 There are lots of people coming claiming they have L2s, they have rollups, they have blah, blah. 14:07 And most of them are like trying to sell scam coins to people. 14:10 I can understand that. 14:12 And being skeptical is not a problem. 14:16 I accept we have a bunch of young developers in Turkey and calling scammers is not something we desire. 14:22 But thank you for the kind words. 14:24 And we will clarify all of this by open sourcing all the code and going to test that fully public. 14:30 And we hope that you may someday work on it also. 14:34 Do you think there's when you consider putting the data somewhere else other than Bitcoin? 14:41 Yeah, we can put, but in that case, imagine this way. 14:45 There is some proof generated and put it into Bitcoin. 14:48 So you have enabled withdrawals. 14:51 But if you cannot find that data, then you cannot provide a multiple proof withdrawal. 14:56 This is a problem of off-chain data. 14:58 We can put the data off-chain if you want less security than Bitcoin. 15:01 But by putting data on-chain, we know that if you have a Bitcoin node running, 15:06 which is the most censorship-resistant node, then you can withdraw from the chain. 15:09 But if you put the data somewhere off-chain, then this means that you need to be able to find that data. 15:15 And the node operators must share with you, basically. 15:17 This is some security thing that we need to consider, which exists with all the sidechains. 15:22 We are thinking about some mixed options called volitions, 15:26 passing the data both off-chain and on-chain and leaving this option to users. 15:30 This is what we are exploring today. 15:32 And hopefully in the mainnet, this will be available. 15:36 It seems like for the first something like seven years of Bitcoin's history, 15:41 when people launched a new blockchain, a new token, it came with its own blockchain. 15:50 And if you wanted to be a part of that network, you ran the node. 15:54 You ran the Namecoin node, or you ran the Ethereum node, or whatever. 15:58 And then you were part of that other network. 16:00 And since the launch of ERC-20 tokens, it's become common for people to not create a new blockchain, 16:07 but rather just use another blockchain as kind of a host for your data, for your token. 16:14 And I don't really like that model, because it gives rise to something called the data availability problem, which is like, what if you want to launch a token, but you know nobody's going to run your blockchain software, no one's going to run a node, then where do you put the data? 16:27 And I think it's just kind of a symbol of laziness. If no one's interested enough to run your network nodes, then your project is probably garbage. And it's silly to try to just dump that data somewhere else where you're like, oh, well, Bitcoiners are running nodes, we'll just dump the data there. That seems like a bad idea, bad precedent to me. 16:50 Anyway, Eric, I noticed we have Eric Wall here, and he had his hand up. So Eric, if you wanted to say something, welcome. 17:00 Yeah, honestly, Paul, I came up because I saw that you were having technical issues and didn't know if people could hear you speak. So I wanted to help you with that. But the other thing I wanted to say was, you said that you were talking about like the definition of a roll up, and whether that it sounds strange that you have a roll up, but you put all the data on the chain anyway, like, isn't that a contradiction? Aren't you supposed to roll something up? 17:26 So maybe it'd be helpful just to give the accurate description of what a roll up is, so that everyone is on the same page. So a roll up, per definition, is a system that dumps all the data that is required to construct the state of the roll up. 17:49 It dumps that data on the layer one, but then you run external software that looks at that, executes it and creates the layer two state. So the definition of a roll up is data on chain, execution off chain. 18:06 So the thing that is getting rolled up is like the execution, the terminology here has always been slightly confusing. So it's nothing weird if you're a little bit confused about these terms. But in order to be a real roll up, you have to put all the data that is necessary to recreate the state from Genesis, the L2 state from Genesis by just looking at the L2 data. 18:30 And there are two ways that people do that. Either they put like all the transaction data on the L1. If you're using an account model, this can be pretty small. You can get something like a transaction can be as small as 13 bytes large. That's all the data that you have to put to transfer the value of a token from one account to another account. 18:55 And then the signatures are all rolled up into like a ZK proof, for example. But then you have all the data, all the inputs that goes into your L2 state. 19:04 I do have a question though, because that definition seems very broad. I mean, it seems like it would include both the lightning network and Drivechains also. So I mean, I guess I would ask what, is there a layer two that is not a roll up? 19:20 Well, the lightning wouldn't really apply. Like lightning doesn't have a global state. There's no global state of like a list of who owns what. 19:29 Well, that's true. But each channel, of course, each channel has its own state that only the two people see. 19:36 And Drivechains don't apply here because you cannot look at just the Bitcoin chain and from that know exactly who owns which coins on the Drivechain chain. Like that's the whole purpose of a Drivechain. 19:47 Well, you can if you have the extra, if you, you do know the deposits and withdrawals only by looking at L1. 19:54 I've been asked to make sure that Paul doesn't let this conversation become a Drivechain topic. 19:59 Yeah, but I'm not asking about that specifically. I'm just saying about his roll up definition. I think it includes everything. 20:08 The other thing that I was going to say, I disagree with that, but the other thing that I was going to say is that the reason that there's a confusion like in these groups about the terminology here is that there's this term called a sovereign ZK roll up that I was partly involved in like coming up with this strange term. 20:35 But what it basically means is that you take a layer one system like Bitcoin and if you find a way to inscribe arbitrary data into it, what you put there, like what you put there can be called a sovereign roll up if you have another external node that looks at that and interprets it differently. 20:52 So basically, ordinals by this definition would be a sovereign roll up. I know it sounds funny, but that's how the terminology works. BRC20 tokens is also a kind of sovereign roll up. 21:05 If you also put a ZK proof verifying, like compressing the signatures, basically, you know, serial knowledge proving the execution, then now we have a sovereign ZK roll up and you can build that on Bitcoin today. 21:20 That is what you don't get from that from that kind of thing is that you don't get a peg, two way peg between Bitcoin layer one and layer two. 21:29 So that's that's a sovereign system, but it's isolated from the Bitcoin asset itself. It inherits the properties of the Bitcoin layer one in terms of like real resistance and data availability. 21:40 So all the tokens that are like natively minted in that environment are like very secure, but they don't they cannot interact with the Bitcoin asset unless you peg it in through a federated thing like a federated multi-sig. 21:54 So that's a sovereign ZK roll up. So now imagine that you're building a sovereign ZK roll up and then BitVM comes along and it has this way of like optimistically like building a type of optimistically verified bridge with a not the honest majority assumption, but an assumption that at least one of the parties are honest. 22:17 Then what is the thing that you built now? You have a sovereign ZK roll up and now you have an optimistic bridge for the Bitcoin assets. 22:23 Now, if you are now focused on the Bitcoin asset itself, you don't actually have a roll up in the true sense of the word, because if you have a roll up, a layer two roll up, then the definition is that you as a user, a normal person interacting with the system, you have the unilateral access and right to deposit and withdraw your assets to the system. 22:52 Like that's how that's how a roll up, a real roll up should work. 22:55 Yeah. 22:56 Most roll ups don't even work that way. 23:01 To get to my point, BitVM currently does not fit into that definition of a classical roll up because there's a limited number of actors that are allowed to do the dispute resolution, validate the ZK proofs and be in control of the peg basically. 23:25 So it's like an it's a one out of N honest assumption in this peg. 23:32 That is not actually how a roll up is designed. 23:37 So these BitVM roll ups are not like actually roll ups or layer twos by the strictest definition of the word, but they do give you. 23:45 So this is why there's some confusion. 23:47 You can start out as a completely legitimate sovereign ZK roll up. 23:50 Then you add this BitVM bridge. 23:52 And now maybe it feels strange for you as companies to be like, yeah, we're not a ZK roll up anymore. 23:58 We're we're something else because you're focusing on two different parts of what your system is actually doing. 24:04 Are you focused on the sovereign part? 24:07 Well, then you are ZK roll up. 24:09 But if you're focused on the Bitcoin asset and the Bitcoin bridge, well, you're not actually a roll up. 24:13 You have some new flavor of pegging mechanism that we don't quite have a word for yet. 24:18 We make all these things BitVM roll ups, even though that's confusing term, also a BitVM bridge. 24:25 So that's basically how we got into this confusing terminology. 24:28 And, yeah, I just want to set that record straight. 24:31 Orkan, if you think that I said anything that was incorrect, please correct me. 24:36 But I think that sort of captures the gist of it. 24:38 Yeah, I have like several minor things, but it is too technical about roll ups details. 24:43 So I don't want to bring that into this conversation, but you are right. 24:47 But I want to add something to Paul's previous points. 24:50 Like if it's the right chance to roll up then, basically, because so the whole point of roll up is like Eric said, 24:58 is the execution, offload the execution. 25:01 But the execution gets verified in Bitcoin afterwards. 25:06 This is unlike Drivechains. 25:08 Today, let's imagine we have a ZKP verification on the base layer. 25:11 There is a single opcode that can verify some ZK proof. 25:15 And this means that the verified thing is the whole L2. 25:20 It is not only deposits, not only withdrawals, not only like part of thing. 25:24 You are verifying every single transaction with a single ZK proof. 25:28 But what happens in Drivechains is basically you trust miners to look back to the L2, 25:34 verify something is going correctly, and get back to main chain and vote for it. 25:39 This is inherent to different trust assumption between roll ups and Drivechains. 25:45 Well, yeah, I think you would agree that the deposits and the withdrawals are both verified on L1 in the case of the Drivechain. 25:53 And it's like people say trust the miner. 25:56 Yes, yeah. 25:57 The withdrawals and the deposits are not everything in between. 26:00 But this is a common thing. 26:02 This is how do we cut. 26:03 The question is how do we have something with the question for sidechains, in my opinion, 26:08 is like how do we have something that is a lot like a lot like a block chain, 26:11 where it has a global state because everyone has many desirable properties. 26:18 People like a lot of what the block chain is the invention. 26:23 And all this new stuff, including the Lightning Network, is like kind of not even panning out. 26:30 But I think the idea is how can we have something like that where we only have some people validate some parts. 26:35 So the whole purpose of it is to intentionally ditch some of the make some people only validate some parts of it. 26:42 That's the entire goal. 26:45 And then people say about trusting the miners. 26:48 It's like, you know, it's like people saying Microsoft Windows will only work. 26:54 It will only work until Bill Gates crashes his private jet into the Microsoft headquarters. 27:00 And it's kind of like it's just not going to happen because it's the cost of miners, basically nothing. 27:04 And they collect transaction fees. 27:06 The miners want the fact that the miners want the fees is the reason that it will work. 27:11 And it's also the reason why it will be incentive compatible for like 100 years. 27:16 And the these other things will not, I think, because they will pay the fees to someone else. 27:21 And yet it's all built on what the miners will include in L1. 27:26 So so that's just like my these are the same questions that I always get, you know, that I've gotten for eight years. 27:32 And, you know, people don't they don't agree with me by now, then they're not going to. 27:37 But I haven't heard anything new in eight years ever since publishing Drivechain in November 2015. 27:45 People always say, well, what about what if the miners suddenly decide they don't want money? 27:51 And you're like, OK, I guess it won't work then. 27:55 There are several other things. 27:56 In rollups, you pay all the fees to the L1 miners. 28:00 You are not paying fees to anywhere else except the ZK Prover. 28:05 So you have a situation where the intermediate state transitions on the L2 are also those are summed up into a big L1 fee. 28:20 I guess, yeah, that's correct. 28:21 That's the desire of the situation. 28:23 Yeah, that's that is going to be necessary, I think. 28:26 But I also wrote in, I think, May of 2016, I made a presentation about why it's very good for miners to be able to kill off sidechains that they don't like because different sidechains can interfere with each other, which this would later be known as cross-chain MEV. 28:47 So this is a problem that I invented and solved long before anyone else said that I heard of it. 28:51 Oh, no, we got people connecting again. 28:54 Oh, this software is so weird. 28:56 I think everyone's back, though. 28:58 Can everyone, people still, can people still hear? 29:02 Let's see if it. 29:04 OK, good. 29:05 Satoshi says yes. 29:06 We had a lot of. 29:07 OK, good. 29:09 I just saw like five people go connecting or whatever on my little screen. 29:13 I don't know why this software is so weird. 29:14 Hopefully they can. 29:17 Let me see if we. 29:20 Orkin, can you hear? 29:21 Did you hear everything? 29:22 Are you working? 29:23 Yes. 29:24 My software was working correctly. 29:27 OK, good. 29:29 So, yeah, I think the whole thing is like kind of like it's the the invention of trustlessness on on L2 is really like to me. 29:39 It is like saying because the the way BIP300 works is it takes a hash of all the state transitions over the three months. 29:47 And so you have to. 29:48 That is the thing that has to be wrong in order for anything to go wrong at all. 29:54 So to me, it really is like, will Microsoft crash a private jet into the. 29:58 And then when people protest or they say, we want to change it like this, we want to change it like that. 30:03 I just decide, well, they don't understand. 30:05 How it works. 30:06 And it's a waste of my time to explain to them. 30:08 No offense to you, but I just it's my personal decision that I've made after years of just thinking like. 30:14 No, no, I definitely understand, like your logic behind the game theory between Drivechain miners like merge miners and the actual miners also. 30:22 But I basically don't agree with most of them. 30:24 But this is not important. 30:25 And I think in a separate space, we can talk about Drivechains and roll ups and so on in more detail. 30:31 It's too bad that we lost Eric. 30:33 Hopefully he comes back. 30:34 Oh, wait. 30:35 I see. 30:36 He's back on my screen. 30:38 He's a listener now. 30:39 I see. 30:40 Hopefully he can come back up, because honestly, I asked him about his roll up definition and he gave a very informative answer, which is great. 30:51 But unfortunately, I really think that most people listening in the audience will just conclude that there is no that the roll up word is wrong. 30:59 There is no that the roll up word is a useless word, because it can mean all sorts of different things of different shapes and sizes. 31:06 And so that they should just abandon the word and just kind of ignore it. 31:10 I hope that's not too harsh to say, but I just think an average person is going to be thinking, what does roll up mean? 31:17 It means ordinals. 31:18 It means it might mean the lightning network. 31:21 Eric says no. 31:23 I wasn't totally convinced. 31:25 I think this all will be cleared when we have testnet running and people will experience how it's going to look like. 31:31 And we are pretty clear about the trust assumptions. 31:35 If you read our documentation, you will see that there are just one trust assumption of the VVM and the other is near trustless in the longer term. 31:44 This is all about practical. 31:45 I think people will see, people will experience and then decide. 31:49 So I can ask a question as a normal user that might help with the definition. 31:54 So it seems to me that he's saying that the bridge from BitVM is not a roll up specifically because it's the one of n feature and it's not anybody can peg out. 32:08 Is that correct? 32:09 Specifically because it's the one of n and not just like literally anybody else? 32:13 Is that why he's saying it's not a roll up? 32:15 That's what I heard him saying. 32:20 Or could maybe you think something else? 32:21 I don't know. 32:22 Yeah. 32:23 To me, it's. 32:26 So basically. 32:27 Okay, you go. 32:28 Yeah. 32:29 Basically, I think that in the longer term, in more general sense, if we cannot unilaterally exit, this is not an L2. 32:36 This is my thing today. 32:39 Only thing that you can unilaterally exit is Arc and Lightning and stuff. 32:44 Drivechains, you cannot unilaterally exit. 32:46 You need minors. 32:47 Roll ups, you cannot. 32:48 In BitVM, roll ups, you cannot unilaterally exit. 32:50 But there is. 32:51 You're right about that. 32:52 But I think there is a fundamental contradiction between unilateral exit and scale. 32:58 So if you scale to eight billion people, then there's no if you have eight billion people on L2, but they cannot fit on L1, then they can't unilaterally exit. 33:08 Actually, you know, again, I don't want it to become the Drivechain show necessarily. 33:12 But Drivechain does have the ability to have the stuff consolidate on L2, as does Arc, I think. 33:20 But it may not, because if it depends on exactly when everything stops working. 33:26 But there is no way. 33:28 You know what I mean? 33:29 Like if eight billion people use L2, if they cannot fit on L1, then they cannot unilaterally exit to L1. 33:34 It's a useless feature that will never be in practice. 33:38 I have a question here, too, because ultimately, no matter what you're going to do, it's up to the miners anyways. 33:44 If you're doing something on L1, if they really don't want a transaction to happen, it doesn't happen. 33:49 Right. 33:50 So like, can you really have unilateral exit no matter what without them? 33:54 You're still relying on the miners at the end of the day, right? 33:57 You need to assume Bitcoin is safe. 34:00 Bitcoin miners are honest. 34:02 But this doesn't mean that the chains they merge mine is honest also. 34:05 You need to assume that Bitcoin miners are honest in Bitcoin. 34:09 And after that, you can talk about these definitions. 34:11 If you say that Bitcoin miners are not honest, then there is no point to talk about this also. 34:15 So the way I see them as being honest is they have an economical incentive to be honest, right? 34:19 So if they're acting based on their economic incentive, then they're being honest. 34:25 So if they are running off their economic incentive, then they can secure the other chain's peg outs. 34:31 So it's basically the same answer. 34:33 If they're being honest and they're running off economic incentives, then they will secure the peg outs of the other chain. 34:39 I'm kind of like lumping it together. 34:41 Yeah, that's correct. 34:43 That is why we advocate that L2s must pay fees to Bitcoin and get Bitcoin security and meanwhile pay to Bitcoin to make the incentive alliance. 34:59 Okay, we seem to have – let's see. 35:02 We have Supertestnet is back in the audience as a listener. 35:06 And I don't know. I don't see. 35:11 Eric seems to have bounced. 35:13 I see him as a speaker coming on and off. 35:15 Really? 35:16 Yeah. 35:17 Oh, man. This is too bad. 35:19 Also, maybe it's false. 35:20 Maybe it's me. I don't know. 35:22 Maybe you should come on. I saw Eric also do the same thing. 35:26 I often have a lot of problems with this. 35:30 And I get a new phone. I get everything. 35:32 People who listen will know. They'll be tired of hearing this by now. 35:34 I always complain about Twitter spaces. 35:36 I don't think there's ever been a situation without you having a problem. 35:39 I don't know why it's happening to me. 35:42 I really don't understand it. 35:44 I really have troubleshoot shot it, but it's – 35:47 Oh, there's Eric as a speaker again. 35:49 Can you try to speak to Eric and Supertestnet? 35:51 I only see him as a listener. 35:53 I can leave and rejoin or do something else. I don't know. 35:56 I'll try also. 35:58 Because I feel bad. I know that they both want to get back on. 36:03 It makes it look like we're highly manipulating who can speak. 36:08 I see them both as speakers. I don't know. 36:10 I only see Eric as – I'm going to leave too. I don't know. 36:26 Okay, I'm basically the host now. 36:28 This is pretty funny. 36:33 As listeners. I don't know why. 36:35 I wish I did now. 36:37 Well, at least now I see them as listeners. 36:39 They were as speakers before. 36:41 Orkin, do you see them as speakers or listeners? 36:43 I see them as listeners. 36:45 I see them as speakers, but they're – 36:47 It's probably you then. 36:49 We can deduce that they don't want to speak anymore maybe. 36:51 You might have to leave now. 36:53 I don't know. 36:59 We can deduce that they don't want to speak anymore maybe. 37:01 You might have to leave and come back. 37:03 Your cache is – I don't know. 37:05 Often when I join, I have to join a couple of different times. 37:07 I just see a blank thing with no people. 37:10 It just messaged me and saying whenever I try to connect, 37:13 it just cuts the audio from me. 37:15 Huh. 37:17 Interesting. 37:18 That is really weird. 37:20 I don't know what to do about it. 37:23 What action can we take that will help? 37:25 I don't know. 37:30 The last thing we can try is we can go down and come back. 37:33 Because we already did. 37:35 Yeah, let's make the time come back. 37:39 Let's try. 37:46 Yeah, we can crack the mysteries of BitVM and ZK rollups, 37:51 but Twitter space, basic usage of Twitter space, 37:55 that's above our pay grade. 37:57 We don't – that's the real blockchain. 38:03 I don't know. 38:05 I'm just trying to make a little joke of this situation. 38:08 Anyway, hopefully, maybe they'll all be trapped. 38:13 Can you hear me? 38:15 Yeah, no, he's back. 38:16 Yeah, here he is. 38:17 I don't know. 38:18 I do not understand that. 38:20 It's interesting. 38:22 Unfortunately, I think we must assume that – 38:26 I don't think there's anything we can do to – 38:28 hopefully, they can come back up. 38:30 I don't know. 38:31 Yeah, let's wait a couple more minutes. 38:33 Meanwhile, I want to thank again you for doing the space 38:37 and recognizing my message 38:39 and giving me an opportunity to speak as well. 38:41 I want to thank you. 38:42 Yeah, of course. 38:43 It's actually very great that you guys are a team of engineers 38:46 who are like – because, you know, often this type of thing 38:48 does happen very, very often where it's like – 38:51 so the story will be like X. 38:53 Someone will come up with X, 38:55 and that person will be like a really hardworking, brilliant person. 38:59 They come up with X. 39:01 And then a bunch of sociopathic vulture people will swoop in 39:06 and they'll start whatever, like a fake company, 39:08 and it's just like PowerPoint slides only or something. 39:11 All kinds of crazy stuff has happened over the many years. 39:15 And certainly, if Eric were back up here 39:19 or whatever other people that we know, 39:21 they could certainly tell a lot of funny stories. 39:24 Yeah, I know. 39:25 Especially, I think, for the last year, we see them a lot. 39:29 Like I'm a little, maybe a bit younger than you, 39:32 so I'm not in the space for like 10-something years. 39:35 But I sort of think those kind of things happen. 39:39 But I also like how SupertestNet is skeptical, 39:42 and I'm glad that we've resolved all the issues. 39:45 And I know that we have a fault to not publish the code fully. 39:49 But in the next month, we will publish everything as well. 39:55 Oh, interesting. 39:56 SupertestNet sounds weaker, but there's this weird beeping sound. 40:00 Yeah. 40:02 Is this you beeping, SupertestNet? 40:03 Are you in a car? 40:13 Okay, we used the mute everyone button, 40:16 but now I don't know. 40:18 Is this really? 40:19 What is going on with this? 40:22 This cannot possibly be. 40:24 Oh, it's his own microphone, maybe? 40:28 I've never heard even that type of beep before in my life. 40:34 Well, mysteries abound. 40:38 Always a new day. 40:39 Hey, you learn something new every day. 40:41 Today I learned that. 40:43 I learned again. 40:44 I didn't really learn this today, 40:46 but I learned that Twitter spaces is cantankerous. 40:56 But what I did learn today is Citria. 41:01 So what is it with people in Turkey? 41:04 You know, that's the question. 41:05 It's like there's all these people coming out of Turkey 41:07 who are like great blockchain engineers all of a sudden. 41:11 What's the story behind that? 41:14 What's the story behind that? I can say maybe the economy and government, 41:19 they're not good at it, obviously, and they're controlling money pretty hard, and they're 41:25 pushing some irrelevant regulations. And this makes people make adopt 41:31 in-course crypto in general, but mostly... Nice. That's the best kind of adoption. 41:36 So you see mostly stablecoins. It is mostly stablecoins. I know some people that have BTC, 41:42 but their immediate thinking is that we need to get out of Turkish lira and buy some US dollars 41:48 in a permissionless manner. Yeah, that's very interesting to hear. This is a very common story. 41:54 Like, for example, if I travel around the world, people love USDT. USDT is like so big, 42:01 like way bigger than you would think. Yeah, so that's like the biggest one 42:04 over in Istanbul, Constantinople, as it used to be called. 42:11 Yeah, USDT is the most popular, but I can't say it is a step because people now 42:16 acknowledge Bitcoin more as a step. No, it definitely is. I think it's a big wake-up call 42:23 for Bitcoin. You know, unfortunately, a lot of these people push these kind of half-baked 42:28 theories, in my view, about like Bitcoin is automatically going to succeed. Bitcoin has 42:34 already won. All we have to do is wait, stack and wait, you know, immaculate conception, 42:38 all this stuff, blah, blah, blah. And they... You know, I don't really like it because 42:46 the early days of Bitcoin, everyone was always like, what can we do? How can we get... 42:50 We'll get Newegg to accept Bitcoin. We'll make... I made a new wallet. Everyone was always like 42:55 doing things and making things. And we could go into a long digression on maybe why this happened, 43:03 as I've done many times, but I'm not going to bore everyone with that today, I think. 43:06 The point is just that this idea is out there that Bitcoin has no competitors or something, 43:12 and that it's just like automatically going to win. And when people use USDT, it's kind of like 43:21 a little bit more apparent that, oh no, people are just going to use like whatever they want to use. 43:26 And it doesn't have to be... People are like, what do people want out of their money? 43:32 Okay, they know what they don't want. They don't want like, you know, terrible government Turkish 43:37 lira money. And they want network... I mean, the USDT is, to me, it's like a point for the network effects 43:46 column. It's like they want to be part of something big. They want to use like what their friends are using. 43:53 Yeah, that's correct. And in more general, I think this is like a step, like you said, but even though 43:59 I don't like the approach you take or so, I like the vision of you make every transaction a Bitcoin 44:04 transaction. Basically, people have different needs than just like making payments or storing 44:09 some value in Bitcoin. But if we enable lots of real economical use cases like private 44:15 transfers, even the most basic thing we need to enable, 44:18 then the demand to Bitcoin will also increase as well as not just in Turkey, but globally. 44:28 Yeah, cool. Great. Well, Supertestnet and others are either unwilling or unable, more likely, 44:38 to come back up as speakers, which is not great. I don't know why that is. I don't know what action 44:44 we can take other than completely resetting the space, which will kick everyone out, 44:50 which seems like... and although that seems like it would work, it does seem 44:58 far from ideal. I don't know why. I don't know why. If anyone knows, hey, if you want to DM me 45:05 any kind of explanation or suggestion on why I always have a miserable time, 45:12 I think it must be me, because even though other people do complain, 45:17 I don't get it, though. I don't really do anything. I'm not doing anything. I don't 45:21 understand what the issue is. Whenever I'm in the spaces, I always have to join like several times. 45:27 There's always blank people, and then I will eventually freeze, and then I will just glitch 45:32 out and like crash the app. Yeah, I didn't have any problem except the long-time connection, 45:38 but apparently Supertestnet and Eric cannot join as speakers. 45:45 I wonder if they have like an alt account they can try with. 45:49 I don't know if that will help or not, but that might. And then they'll dox their alt account. 45:54 They'll have to come up, and they'll have to be like, it's me, Supertestnet, the second. 45:58 Just make like a new one right now. 46:03 But I think the benefit of USDT is also that it's like chain agnostic, right? If one chain is having 46:09 problems or it's like too congested or whatever, fees are up, you could always just use another 46:13 chain. And the fact that it's like the same asset on many chains kind of helps. Yeah, I think that's 46:20 true. I've seen a lot of people like USDT on Tron, or it's clear to me that for just 46:28 from talking to them that they have no idea what they're using. Like they just use some app. 46:34 They use like a Jaxx wallet or something, and they have like no idea like what. 46:39 They're not running a node. They don't know what a node is. But this is a very interesting 46:46 thing. I think everyone should do this. Whenever you travel or just whenever you talk to anyone, 46:53 if you're interested in this, it's definitely very good for Bitcoin if you just ask people 47:01 to be honest about like, hey, do you use any of this stuff? Do you own any of this stuff? 47:10 And it is really weird. It's really often not what you would expect. And I remember thinking 47:16 like Ethereum used to be, this is me boring everyone with war stories now, but 47:22 it's like it certainly used to be the case. Like in 2015, Ethereum was like the worst project ever. 47:27 And then the DAO hack happened in 2016, and then blah, blah, blah, all this stuff happened. But 47:31 everyone still thought of Ethereum as like a terrible thing. And then slowly, I would say 47:37 maybe like 2020 or 2019, or NFTs getting big and stuff like that. I think it was before NFTs, 47:47 like 2021 in the summer when DeFi started. That's when it started to show it's kind of... 47:55 And you'd see like, oh, lots and lots of normal people are using this. And then you would see 48:01 this stuff. I got invited to New York City NFT, and I don't really own any NFTs, but I knew one 48:10 of the people organizing it. And I lived close to New York City, so I was like, whatever, I'll go. 48:15 And they had great, you know, they had really great, for what it's worth, they had great food, 48:20 which was free. But yeah, everything, all the NFTs, everything was being, 48:25 all the bidding and everything was done in ETH. That was like a kind of a neat moment for me. I 48:29 was like, oh, all this stuff is in ETH, like 100%. But then in the Bitcoin culture, it's 48:38 really still on autopilot, like it was from like, as if this is still the year 2016 or something. 48:44 So that's, that's not great. So, and then, yeah, like if I go, I go travel around the world a 48:49 little bit, and USDT is so big. And then we heard it again. Yes. Hello, hey, Orkun, yes, hello. 48:57 Yes, so SuperTestNet, I was talking with him to DM, but maybe we can just close the 49:03 space and reopen it because he tried six times from different browsers, but he's still 49:08 unable to join. Okay, let's just close it and reopen it then. Okay. Two part space. Okay. 49:19 Sorry about that. Everyone try to rejoin if you can. Okay. 51:08 Hey, I hope this time SuperTestNet and Eric can join. 52:08 I hope this time SuperTestNet and Eric can join. 52:38 I hope this time SuperTestNet and Eric can join.
