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So, if you want new features, 25:47 if you want the zCase now, if you want zAddresses, if you want Turing Complete smart contracts, 25:52 if you want large blocks, whatever it is, you can get that. Other people don't have, 25:57 you know, if you want small block, layer one, ossified code, you can get that. 26:02 We're just giving everyone what they want. So, the Drivechain is a sidechain idea, 26:06 so it lets people just send the coins to different pieces of software. 26:09 So, all the software will compete with each other, and so that is best for the user, because it's competition. 26:18 It's an opera situation, right? You get a Drivechain, and you get a Drivechain, and you get a SpaceChain. 26:24 You could. I mean, I think there would probably only be a few, but a lot of people actually have good ideas. 26:30 So, the zCache is a good example of a good idea, but it has the silly dev techs. 26:36 And the pre-mine. 26:37 Yeah, all this weird stuff like that. So, you just give it all that, take all the technology, 26:43 take the zCase-SNARK mixer, take the zAddresses that are private, you know. 26:49 I did see that you made a demo on YouTube. 26:52 Yes. 26:53 In which you prove how you can integrate the main Bitcoin Core client on testnet with your Drivechain, zCache. 27:00 Yes. 27:01 Drivechain, that's what you call it. 27:03 Yeah, we call it zSide instead of zCache. 27:07 Yeah, exactly. 27:08 So, yeah, you take coins, you have your regular Bitcoins, you send them over to this piece of software, 27:15 and over there, the coins show up, and it's like using a lightning app or something. 27:21 You send the coins over, and you have the coins there, and then over there you have zAddresses, 27:26 and you have the zCache super privacy, and then when they change hands, 27:31 the new owners can eventually take them back to Layer 1. 27:35 So, yeah, that's what it does. 27:37 Sounds promising. 27:39 Yeah. 27:40 I mean, I think it's also the only way that Bitcoin can actually succeed at most of the things it wants to do 27:48 because there's a lot of disagreement over what the block chain should contain, 27:53 including the block size is one example. 27:55 So, whatever you pick for the block size, they can't be both large and small. 27:59 So, you have to turn one group away. 28:02 Yeah, I agree with that. 28:04 And so, that's difficult because money needs network effects, and we prefer a unified community, 28:11 like Bitcoin versus the banks. 28:13 We don't want Bitcoin versus Ethereum versus whatever, Tron, you know? 28:19 I mean, we have RSK, which is Merge Mine. 28:22 Yes, but the peg is federated on Layer 1 because nothing else exists yet to do the peg with. 28:31 People use these HSMs. 28:33 This HSM thing, I think, is unverifiable. 28:37 No one can prove they're using HSM to you. 28:40 What if I said I have two organizations. 28:44 One is a multisig. 28:47 One uses multisig to hold their coins, and the other uses multisig with HSM to hide their coins. 28:53 And I ask you, which is which? 28:57 I don't know. 28:58 There's no way of knowing, 28:59 especially if you just look at the blockchain. 29:01 They're just two multisig outputs. 29:04 So, one of them, they say they use HSM, but how can anyone know that? 29:08 Well, doesn't Notchnor or Taproot help with that? 29:12 How does it help with that? 29:14 Well, multisigs and normal transactions are going to look the exact same and have the same size. 29:19 No, but that makes it even more difficult to prove that someone actually is using an HSM, the hardware security module. 29:27 HSM is like if you bring something on a plane and they say, 29:31 check this box that you're not carrying any of these things on. 29:34 If you're like, I'm bringing all of those things on the plane. 29:38 It's like this piece of chemistry that can explode and burst into flames and burn a hole through the plane and kill everyone. 29:45 So, I don't know exactly how they ship those HSMs around is what I'm saying. 29:48 Presumably, they use a boat. 29:50 A boat? 29:51 Yeah. 29:53 That's not a boat in Canadian. A boat. 29:57 Yeah, they use a boat. I mean a ship. 30:02 So, I don't know how you would get those on an airplane. 30:05 Because people would be like, what the? 30:06 You put it through the TSA, the scanner would be like, what is this? 30:13 Okay, what are the tradeoffs of Drivechains? 30:17 Or what is the major criticism that you received? 30:19 Criticisms are terrible, but I'll give you what they are. 30:22 Some people say the miners can steal. 30:25 But the miners can also steal from the Lightning Network. 30:27 So, the Criterion is not a good one. 30:30 The other thing is to steal, it takes months. 30:33 Three to six months of one hash not matching another hash. 30:37 There's plenty of stuff that people could do about it. 30:39 If they wanted to, react. 30:41 There's plenty of natural consequences as well. 30:43 Like if miners kill the sidechain idea, then the Bitcoin coin goes from being a coin that can do anything 30:49 to a coin that can only do one thing, the layer one store value thing. 30:55 And presumably, its price would be greater if it could do everything. 30:58 And it was infinitely scalable and private and extensible. 31:01 And there's no disagreements. 31:04 That would presumably be more valuable than if it lost that ability. 31:08 And of course, all the transaction fees on all of the sidechains, which normally would go to miners, 31:13 that would be over if they killed the idea. 31:17 That's a terrible critique. 31:19 I can't believe that goes on for as long as it did. 31:21 I think what actually happened was Blockstream wrote this paper in October 2014. 31:26 And everyone was saying sidechains are great. 31:28 And Peter Todd had to rain on everyone's parade. 31:30 So, he was like, okay, I'll come up with something to say. 31:32 So, he said this true thing that 51% can steal the sidechain coins. 31:37 But really, 51% of miners can do an awful lot of stealing of Lightning Network, Mainnet, other things, statechains, whatever. 31:45 So, it's very, very difficult to find something where the 51% miners cannot steal. 31:50 It's almost impossible. 31:52 They can certainly steal from the Lightning Network by just censoring the justice transaction from the blockchain. 31:56 So, they can empty the channel and give it to themselves. 32:01 Would you say that Drivechains also give more power to the miners? 32:05 Well, not if you are on Layer 1. 32:08 You're unaffected completely. 32:12 But for the people who choose to opt in, you maybe could say that. 32:16 But those users have chosen to opt into that. 32:20 So, you understand that there's no – when people say that, what they're implying is that miners have gotten more power at the expense of other people. 32:32 And that the pie has shifted. 32:34 Yes. 32:35 But that's not the case in the slightest. 32:37 So, in that sense, the answer is no. 32:39 Would you say that the cost of validation for everyone else gets increased by adding Drivechains? 32:44 No, because it – only in the sense that maybe adding CheckLockTimeVerifier, something very tiny. 32:49 The only thing that the BIP300 script checks is this one tiny little hash. 32:54 It collects these hashes, and it counts a little integer up from 0 to 13,000, basically. 33:03 And that's all it does. 33:05 So, it's very, very, very – the overhead is very small. 33:09 Certainly, it's well within the efficiency that Bitcoin Core gains and loses as with every single one of the previous major releases has resulted in an efficiency change that is, I would say, at least an order of magnitude greater. 33:29 So, there's absolutely no significant increase in the node cost at all. 33:36 You argue that Bitcoin maximalism is BIP300/301, specifically because you're maximizing Bitcoin's potential by adding every chain functionality. 33:48 Yes, I think the Bitcoin maximalism shifted a little bit, where it used to mean that Bitcoin is almost certainly going to just – there's no need for anything else. 33:59 And so, there's no – there's certainly a distraction to invest in an altcoin or something like that. 34:05 But now, over time, it has shifted to mean something like no matter what happens, Bitcoin's success is preordained or predestined. 34:15 So, no matter how many mistakes we make or how overconfident we get, everything will be good for Bitcoin. 34:23 And so, yeah, the sidechain idea was originally a maximalist idea that just said, hey, whatever anyone comes up with that's good, we'll just take because it's open source software. 34:37 So, that's why I say that this is maximalism. 34:39 It says not only do we hate alts, but we're going to roll up our sleeves and do something about it, which is just copy their features so that anyone who wants the feature can have it. 34:51 And also, anyone who wants to create a narrative where the feature is important, where they say, well, Bitcoin is no good because it doesn't have such and such. 35:02 Well, now you'll be able to say, well, yes, it does. It has everything. 35:06 So, yeah, that's why I think it is – anyone who's not a sidechainer is probably not – I mean, is really not a Bitcoin maximalist. 35:13 But now, there's this new – the modern maximalist is just the preordained success of BTC despite whatever reality says. 35:22 It's useless and it should not exist. 35:24 Yeah. 35:25 Experimentation is bad outside of Bitcoin, but you can't do that on Bitcoin. 35:30 Right. Well, that's the new view, is that. 35:32 Yeah. 35:33 So, like if someone has a new – like Ricardo Spogni or Monero or something, someone has an idea, what are they supposed to exactly do? 35:41 He's not the creator of Monero. That's not – 35:43 But he was like the cultural leader of Monero, though. 35:45 Of course. 35:46 Yeah. 35:47 I'm referring to the past also. 35:49 So, I'm saying if someone has an idea they like, what exactly are they supposed to do? 35:56 This is something that came up with me and John Carvalho where I say – I talk about the freedom to ignore good ideas. 36:03 And he claims that right, and I agree with that, but I say that comes with – that actually comes with sidechains because if you're saying there's nothing – you can never leave Bitcoin no matter how good of an alternative idea you have. 36:19 Maybe you have an idea that is objectively super good, but some say you can never leave. 36:27 And if you start an altcoin, that's a bad thing, of course. 36:32 But this is the problem, is what do you do with an idea that's good? 36:35 So, the whole sidechain idea is that we capture all the good ideas. 36:39 But otherwise, people are in a kind of a dilemma because they say, I believe in this idea. 36:43 Someone really believes in whatever their idea is, ring signatures or turn complete or whatever it is. 36:50 And now the only thing they can do is launch an altcoin if there's no sidechains. 36:54 So, the lack of sidechains is what gives birth to the altcoins. 36:59 That's what I argue sometimes. 37:01 That whenever you say that nothing except for Bitcoin should exist and it's all a shitcoin. 37:06 You should also accept the fact that people are going to move away and build their own shitcoin. 37:14 Yeah, not as much of it – some people say this is about taking money from people or whatever. 37:24 Many of these people who started an altcoin, they really just had an idea that they really liked. 37:30 And then some of them, a smaller number, have said something like, well, this idea I really believe in. 37:35 And since everyone else is scamming by altcoin, I'll give myself 20% or something. 37:41 I'll pre-mine or whatever. 37:42 But most of the people – there are, of course, many people who have just straight up used the altcoin. 37:49 And the altcoin world and the ICO world and the NFT world to just straight up take people's money. 37:55 The smooth operators, they move in. 37:58 So, there are many horrible people. Most of them are horrible people. 38:01 But a lot of the – there are a lot of coins that were – the whole reason the altcoin – oh, sorry. 38:08 There's a lot of reasons – the whole coin exists is because of a genuine creative idea that someone had. 38:15 And they said, you know, I think this could be great. 38:17 And some people say, like a John Carvalho would say, that idea is not very good. 38:22 But why is it up to him? 38:24 If we had sidechains, then you could pick – you could say, you know what, let me look at that idea. 38:29 I'm my own sovereign human being. 38:31 And I'm going to say, you know, let me look at Vlad's sidechain. 38:37 And I'm going to say, I can maybe put 20 bucks in there at first and try the idea out for yourself. 38:45 It shouldn't be up to some third party to censor the ideas out. 38:48 That is not reasonable. 38:51 What is your view on building stuff on top of lightning? 38:56 That's something that John Carvalho would argue, that we don't need any more blockchains. 39:00 We just need to build stuff on lightning. 39:02 Well, I wonder if you would still argue that, because I wrote a post. 39:07 I was on the Bitcoin dev mailing list. 39:09 I wrote some emails earlier in the year. 39:11 And then in April, just before the conference in Miami, I wrote a post called Lightning Network Fundamental Limitations. 39:20 And then a couple of months after that, in June, John Carvalho hosted a kind of recorded – I don't know what it was. 39:31 It was something like that. 39:32 Yeah, something like that. 39:33 And he put it on YouTube. 39:34 Anyone can read it. 39:35 And it's called – it has almost the same title. 39:37 It was like Lightning Network Fundamental Limitations or something. 39:40 And in that, he got Matt Corallo. 39:43 He had Christian Decker. 39:44 He had extremely elite members of the technical lightning community. 39:49 And they all basically agreed with the stuff that I had written in the post, which was very, very different than what most people, the layperson or even the lightning enthusiast, believes. 40:04 What the regular lightning person believes is very different from what Matt Corallo or Christian Decker believes. 40:11 So, I don't know if – and, you know, John Carvalho hosted it, and he wanted to de-hype the lightning network a little bit. 40:18 So, I wonder what he would say if you asked him now. 40:20 That was in June, and that's three months later. 40:22 So, I don't know. 40:23 I wonder what he would say if you asked him today. 40:25 I wish he was here because I would ask him. 40:28 But what are some non-stuff like – what's it called? 40:32 Block stacks? 40:34 What about it? 40:35 The non-ETC people. 40:36 Oh, the stacks people? 40:38 Stacks, yeah. 40:39 Stacks, well, stacks is a different – they raise $150 million, like, sort of selling their – they have to sell their coin. 40:47 If we had sidechains, there would be no need for such a coin, and you could do whatever they were doing on the sidechain with no stacks token. 40:55 So, the fact that people – the fact that we don't have sidechains is the whole reason why we have Munib raising $150 million to do stacks. 41:08 Sort of, or in large part. 41:11 So, I think that's where a lot of people get confused about it. 41:14 I don't know that much about it. 41:16 I think it's supposed to do something like Ethereum. 41:19 There's like a quasi-counterparty part. 41:21 There's a quasi – because there's like an embedded consensus to get parallel blockchain. 41:26 So, it's sort of sidechain-like. 41:30 They also do something similar to what Ethereum does, where they can move the coins on Bitcoin via some kind of SPV – what is it called? 41:42 A BTC relay or something. 41:44 But I don't know that much about it. 41:46 But I think a lot of people just say, well, he raised $150 million. 41:52 He must be suspicious. 41:55 Which, yeah, they may be right as far as I know. 41:58 Why, what's your take on it? 42:01 I think it's experimentation. 42:03 It's not up to me to decide. 42:05 I'm not technical enough to look into it. 42:07 I can get angry at their shitcoin, at the STX or whatever they call it. 42:11 But, you know, they build stuff. 42:14 It might be – it's open source. 42:16 Maybe someone will take it and use it for another purpose. 42:20 Yeah. 42:21 I'm trying to not be as judgmental. 42:24 As in, sometimes even in the shittiest project, there is something legit that comes out. 42:30 That's true. 42:31 And it's built. 42:32 And we can reuse that. 42:34 As I said, it's open source software. 42:36 I agree. 42:38 We rename it. 42:39 We use it on another layer or chain or anything else. 42:45 I agree with that. 42:46 We can even take their UX. 42:48 Sometimes shady projects have nice UX, because that's all they got. 42:52 The graphics. 42:54 Yes, yeah. 42:56 They need to be flashy. 42:57 They need to promote something. 42:59 So, yeah. 43:00 There's something good in pretty much everything. 43:03 I wanted to ask you if you read The Fiat Standard, because I know you're a big fan. 43:07 I have not read it yet. 43:10 I'm not sure if I will ever read it. 43:12 I'm sure it's not very interesting. 43:14 That could be very interesting to me. 43:17 I mean, that's a very Fiat answer from you. 43:20 You think so? 43:21 Because it was said after 1971. 43:23 Yeah, right. 43:24 Well, his book is written after 1971. 43:26 So, isn't it just a Fiat book, right? 43:29 All art after 1971 is no good. 43:32 So, including the Bitcoin Standard and the Fiat Standard, both written after 1971. 43:36 That's not art. 43:37 That's science. 43:38 Oh, okay. 43:39 But isn't all science after 1971 also Fiat science? 43:43 Yeah, that's why you don't use seed oils. 43:45 Yeah, right. 43:46 Because seed oils are Fiat food. 43:49 Mm-hmm. 43:51 Yeah. 43:52 Anything other than meat. 43:54 A disturbing number of people are now leaving this room, leading us to maybe conclude that something important is happening somewhere else. 44:00 Probably. 44:01 There's a barbecue somewhere. 44:02 Oh. 44:03 But I was worried that they locked the door and they left us here. 44:06 Oh, come on. 44:07 They wouldn't do that. 44:08 What's that? 44:10 I get a bag. 44:12 She dumped her bag on me. 44:15 Her name is Anna. 44:16 She's the marketing director of Huddle Huddle. 44:18 She did a great job. 44:19 And now he's a bag holder. 44:22 That was Anna, and she helped me with the magazine. 44:25 So, follow her on Twitter. 44:27 Are you on Twitter? 44:29 Also follow Huddle Huddle. 44:31 Use peer-to-peer methods to buy your Bitcoin. 44:34 They're not even sponsoring this podcast, but she thanked me. 44:40 Okay, great. 44:41 What are your closing words, Paul? 44:43 We're getting kicked out. 44:45 We're not literally getting kicked out, but everyone else has left this room, leading us to believe that we should probably kick ourselves out. 44:54 So, what should we say? 44:56 Baltic Honey Badger was a lot of fun. 45:02 Read about BIP300 yourself. 45:04 Don't listen to other people. 45:07 Don't listen to other people. 45:09 Read the peer-review page and use your own brain to decide things. 45:13 I did read your peer-review page, and I did see that most Bitcoin Core developers seem to agree with your proposal for Drive Teams. 45:22 Some people have agreed, and many people have had no comments. 45:26 Some people haven't agreed, but they endorse those two critiques that I think we should follow up with them to see. 45:34 But I was surprised Peter Todd said yesterday that he still believes this whole... 45:38 Peter Todd believes it's very bad if some miners have a way of making money that other miners do not. 45:46 But that's the entire history of mining. 45:48 It's just been new miners innovating and replacing the old miners in a never-ending sequence of improvements. 45:57 And the idea that running sidechain software is even comparable with some of the investments that miners make in millions of dollars of hardware, cooling... 46:08 The idea that this would even register is bizarre. 46:10 So, I think the whole criterion is wrong. 46:12 Blind Merged Mining solves it anyway, and they don't even have to run the node. 46:16 So, the whole criterion is wrong. 46:19 There's no way, even if you applied the criterion, there's no way that software would even measure up to all the other costs they have. 46:26 They have security, cooling, electricity, the ASICs... 46:30 It's completely insane that anyone would even... 46:34 But that's the Peter Todd point of view on sidechains. 46:37 You guys are like Verlaine and Rimbaud. 46:39 Actually, no. Bad, bad comparison. 46:43 Okay. 46:44 You're not modernist poets, you're not lovers. 46:47 But they shot each other at one point. 46:51 Yeah, but am I shooting him, though? 46:52 I'm saying his argument isn't good. 46:54 He's shooting me. 46:56 Okay. 46:58 Yeah, open timestamps. 47:00 They're pretty great. 47:01 Yeah. 47:03 I don't have any comments against them. 47:06 Yeah, me neither. It's pretty straightforward, though. 47:08 What about RBF? 47:10 RBG, you mean? 47:12 No, replaced by fee. 47:13 Oh, okay. What about it? 47:14 That's a Peter Todd addition. 47:17 First seen safe, replaced by fee. 47:19 That's pretty good. It helps people when your transaction is stuck. 47:22 You're grateful that you have that in there, when you have your bad... 47:25 Is that not a double spend? 47:27 Well, they do first seen safe. 47:28 So they say you're allowed to replace it as long as it's the same destination. 47:33 And a bigger fee in the same destination than people allow it. 47:37 So it was kind of a clever compromise. 47:41 All right. 47:42 Looks like we'll have to wrap it up, because your computer will die when it runs out of battery. 47:49 So are you going to read Safedine until next time? 47:52 Maybe. 47:54 Yeah, I'll get right on that. 47:55 But seriously, what kind of books do you recommend to listen to? 47:59 The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch and The Elephant in the Brain by Robin Hanson. 48:05 Those are the two best books, non-fiction books, ever written. 48:10 Wow. 48:11 I expected you to say, okay, go for Eric Voskill, Crypto-Economics. 48:15 It's a better book than Safedine's. 48:17 A lot of things are a better book than that. 48:20 I think plenty of people have written a decent Bitcoin book. 48:24 I don't know which one. 48:25 Bitcoin book is my favorite, but I own quite a few now. 48:28 So I have to try and figure that out and get back to you. 48:30 Did you look at the Bitcoin Takeover magazine? 48:33 It's good. 48:34 It's really good. 48:35 I looked at it. 48:36 It's good. 48:37 It's really good. 48:38 I think people would enjoy it. 48:39 Send me a review after you read it. 48:40 All right. 48:41 I will do. 48:42 I have the number one. 48:43 I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I think for Robin Hanson's Elephant in the Brain, 48:45 I wrote an Amazon review that was number one for a very long time. 48:51 I'm going to ask you for a review, and I'm going to make sure it's number one. 48:54 Because it's not on Amazon, but I can post it at the top. 48:58 All right. 48:59 Cool. 49:00 Well, I think your poor computer is going to run out of energy. 49:03 So we'll just say the mass has ended, right? 49:06 St. Catherine, pray for us. 49:07 Go in peace. 49:10 No, I'm not Catholic. 49:11 Sorry. 49:12 I know, but it's the Bitcoin Uncensored. 49:13 I'm Orthodox. 49:14 Really? 49:15 Orthodox? 49:16 Yes. 49:17 Oh, that's interesting. 49:18 Ninety-something percent of Romanians are Orthodox. 49:19 Okay. 49:20 At least in papers. 49:22 How do they end the mass in Orthodox? 49:26 The mass. 49:27 I'm trying to translate right now. 49:29 What is the mass? 49:31 The mass is the weekly gathering of everyone. 49:35 On Sunday. 49:36 Yeah. 49:37 And then they say the mass has ended. 49:38 Go in peace. 49:42 It's pretty much the same. 49:43 Just in Romanian? 49:44 Yes. 49:45 All right. 49:46 Say it in Romanian then. 49:52 All right. 49:53 Great. 49:54 Cool. 49:55 There we go. 49:56 Okay. 49:57 Cool. 49:58 Hey, thanks. 49:59 Thank you, Paul. 50:00 It's always a pleasure. 50:01 Pleasure is mine. 50:02 And next time I'm going to ask you more questions, and I'm going to have a better prepared laptop. 50:05 Okay. 50:06 Cool. 50:07 All right. 50:08 Great. 50:14 Commercial break. 50:24 After Mt. 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