0:00 Hope you're okay, TJ Melly. Sorry about that. Next up, we have the best path for scaling Bitcoin. And this is going to get pretty technical, folks. This should be interesting. 0:09 We've got David Siroy joining us. Obi, who I'm sure you all know. Come on up, guys. We've got Paul Sztorc and also Ryan Gentry. And I'm excited. This panel is moderated by our very own Nam Kios from UTXO management. 0:26 Come on up, guys. Give them a round of applause. Let's go. This is the best path for scaling Bitcoin. Thank you. 0:38 All right, everyone. Welcome. We're here today to talk about what we think or what these guys, the big brains, think the best path for scaling Bitcoin is. 1:08 Each one of these guys, and I'll give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves before we jump right into the content, but each one of these guys is working on a different set of tools that seek to increase the realm of possibilities with Bitcoin, that seek to make Bitcoin appealing for more people, and to increase the pool of users of Bitcoin. 1:34 So, before we start talking about the pros and cons and what these solutions are, please introduce yourselves and talk a little bit more. Paul, you want to? 1:45 Yeah, sure. My name is Paul Sztorc. I'm a proponent of this idea, the Drivechain. And basically, I think if we had 12, 13, 14 of these, we would be able to actually have the Bitcoin network in all of its layers, inclusive, process every single transaction on earth by the year 2030, which would be about 9 trillion transactions, and that would be about $900 billion a year in revenue for miners. 2:12 So, the Drivechain is this merge mine to L2 chain, and my idea is much more miner-centric than the other ideas represented up here. So, that's what I think we should do. 2:24 And let me just get in here that this is very important that we want people to be using Bitcoin, of course, but we need to be very proactive about looking at the tech stack, because if we don't want to be in a situation where the tech stack can support planetary scale, and then we don't do this and someone else does it, we don't want to be in that position. So, that's why that's important to me. 2:47 Okay, my name is David C. Roy. I'm with Oppenlabs, and we're building ZK rollups on Bitcoin. It's probably most similar to a sidechain, except the peg, the ability to go from the Bitcoin layer one into this ZK rollup is trustless. And in many ways, that's kind of considered the holy grail that a lot of people have been working on in the Bitcoin community for a long time. And only recently is that technology kind of catching up and making it possible for us to pursue today. 3:13 My name is Obi Nwosu. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Fedi. And we are promoting the use of a scaling solution called FediMint. It's a form of federated eCash protocol. Now, eCash was the first suggested scaling solution for Bitcoin. 3:32 In fact, nine days after Bitcoin was put forward as an idea by Satoshi, it was suggested to use Charmian eCash as a way to scale Bitcoin to potentially billions of users. And it's a 40-year-old, mature, simple way of scaling Bitcoin. It allows incredible features. You can scale privacy, you can scale transactions, and it works today. 3:57 Hi, everybody. I'm Ryan Gentry. I'm the head of business development at Lightning Labs. Lightning Labs is the premier developer of the open-source software powering the Lightning Network, which has been live on mainnet since 2018. 4:11 We recently, this past Tuesday, announced a new release to our suite of software tools, the Tapered Assets Protocol on Lightning. Tapered Assets is a new protocol that allows for arbitrary asset issuance on the Bitcoin blockchain in a very scalable manner, with the goal being bringing stable coins back to Bitcoin and bringing their tens of trillions of dollars of annual volume to the Lightning Network and to the Bitcoin network to help them scale. 4:41 So we're very excited to be here today to talk about the best path for scaling Bitcoin and kind of improving upon and extending the work that's already been done by the Lightning community. 5:01 Are you saying that Lightning's working? 5:03 I'm saying that Lightning's working. Lightning's working very well. 5:06 Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that, Toby, because that was exactly what I had in mind to ask, is that I think out of all of the tools that are being worked on here, Lightning is perhaps the one that we know more about and the one that we all use more, and even despite claims to the contrary, right? 5:29 And so on another point that you brought up about bringing stable coins back to Bitcoin, I think that part is important because a lot of people miss or forget that stable coins started on Bitcoin. 5:44 And a lot of the developments, a lot of the use cases that we see now thriving outside of Bitcoin started on Bitcoin. 5:52 So I think this also, I can see you agree, Paul, that... 5:55 Oh, yeah, of course. 5:56 Yeah, we really don't want to be having more conferences where later on people come up on stage in three years or five years and we're talking about, oh, how do we bring something back to Bitcoin? 6:06 We just, it's much easier to just proactively grow and make sure that we're always growing and we have more people, more people coming. 6:14 Growth is not just about, scalability is not just about transactions. 6:19 It is about getting a lot of people in this conference to get politicians to pay attention to us and stuff. 6:25 We want the growth. 6:27 That's much better than... 6:30 I mean, from my perspective, Bitcoin is growing. 6:35 The other cryptocurrencies have raised a lot of money through things called ICOs. 6:40 They've used a lot of that to advertise a market and convince people to use their cryptocurrency. 6:47 However, Bitcoin has no marketing team and it's continued to grow and extend its lead against every other cryptocurrency. 6:56 So the reality is, if you just look at the reality and look at the numbers, it is growing by itself. 7:03 Now, very early on, it was said by a number of people in this space, including Satoshi, but other people said this. 7:12 They said that anything that would be needed to add to Bitcoin at the appropriate time, once proven in the market, can be added. 7:21 And that is what we are seeing happening now with technologies like Lightning, with technologies like Fedimit and eCash. 7:28 I certainly don't think it's just like a magical fact that the right technology will be added at the right time, like in an infallible process. 7:36 But in general, I do agree that building a social and political movement is actually more important and more difficult than building a scalable piece of technology. 7:48 So I do think that we could ask everyone here, if there was a different coin that was more scalable than Bitcoin, would you immediately sell all of your Bitcoin and buy that coin? 7:58 And everyone would say no, because you want to be in a club that other people are in and you want to be part of something that works. 8:06 Although I do think the end game, it will be a matter of life or death at the very end of the game. 8:11 If there is something that doesn't scale and something that does, for whatever reason, either by choice or for some other reason, the non-scalable one will be defeated. 8:22 Yes, that boogeyman would be a bad end state. But that's not the reality. 8:25 You're looking around this set of seats right now, and we have multiple, very different approaches. 8:34 Each one of them has the potential to scale to billions of users. Each one. And we've got four here. Three are more advanced than one. 8:42 And we should be pluralist and we should try them all. 8:45 Sorry about that. 8:48 I guess to your point that yes, Bitcoin works, right? And it's not the most scalable or the fastest that is going to necessarily have people just going and using them, right? 9:05 And so I would, as people that are working towards that goal of bringing millions or billions of people to Bitcoin, why do we need to scale Bitcoin? 9:16 I think that's a great question. And I think, you know, the idea here is what Bitcoin is and what Bitcoin represents. 9:24 And I thought, you know, Blue Matt did a really nice job earlier, emphasizing and talking about trustlessness, right? 9:31 And talking about the idea that, you know, the true value of Bitcoin is that you can hold and transact without needing to trust any third party, just relying on yourself. 9:41 Right. And so I think what we want to do is we want to be able to provide that capability to as many people as possible that we can. 9:49 We want to be able to, you know, let anybody who is willing to do the work to run a node. 9:55 We want to lower the barrier entry so that you can transact trustlessly in this new world that we're in. 10:02 And so obviously, though, Bitcoin, to be the system that it is, has to have a cap block size. 10:08 It has to have 10 minute blocks. 10:10 There are these things, these aspects of the design of the system that are non-negotiable. 10:14 So many years ago, as everybody's here is well aware, you know, the decision was made to scale the system in layers. 10:20 And kind of the Lightning Network was the first layer that was added into the capabilities design. 10:27 The network was added in in 2017, you know, with a series of soft works ending in SegWit. 10:35 And, you know, that has allowed us to, you know, theoretically completely demolish the specific limit on transactions. 10:44 Right. Well, what Lightning does is you can, you know, with as many channels as you could open, in theory, you could be doing, you know, hundreds of millions of transactions per second if everybody was just sipping, you know, between each other. 10:55 Right. So that limit of, you know, instead of the 3,000 transactions per block now, you know, 3,000 transactions for 10 minutes. 11:04 Now we can send, you know, essentially an unlimited amount of transactions off chain if we wanted to. 11:09 And so I think kind of the next step for, you know, scaling this trustless transactional capacity is how many people can hold the assets themselves without having to trust a third party. 11:21 Right. And, you know, with Lightning, right, like with anything, right, on Bitcoin, to hold it trustlessly right now, you have to own your own UTXO. 11:30 Right. There's like, I think, what, 150 million UTXOs, something like around that order of magnitude right now. 11:37 We have a long ways to go to get to the ability for 8 billion people to do that, or at least a significant percentage of that. 11:45 And I think that's what a lot of these, you know, further looking ideas and a lot of these proposals here are, how can we expand access to self-custodial ownership so that you can, you know, be a first class Bitcoin citizen making trustless transactions as designed? 12:05 I'll just add that I think if we don't scale, then probably the most important attribute of Bitcoin, 21 million, is really just a meme. 12:11 It's like completely undermined. 12:13 And as much as we want to say that Bitcoin only has 21 million and we can all self-custody and no one can ever debase the currency. 12:19 Like if you don't have these venues for people to go out and use their Bitcoin in a trust-minimized or trustless manner, then people will artificially inflate the supply of Bitcoin. 12:30 A spicy take is I was talking to somebody, some frankly big whales out in Singapore, and they were telling me that a lot of these whales are being approached by these Bitcoin L2s that are fake and not actually decentralized and trustless. 12:43 And they're essentially giving the whales Bitcoin IOUs on these Bitcoin sidechains, but not actually requiring them to go into the multi-sig of the bridge. 12:54 So imagine a whale that has 100,000 Bitcoin, they're just getting a free 50,000 Bitcoin that's minted on this chain. 13:01 If we don't have these kind of verifiable and trustless sidechains and ability to scale, you're going to have these games that are actually played. 13:10 And for me, it's like the 21 million, the fundamental human property rights of Bitcoin, it is in fact being undermined because we don't have fully successful scalable solutions yet, in my opinion. 13:22 So we're here in the West, and so you'll tend to have Western viewpoints on these things. 13:29 But the reason why we need to scale is there are certain people who will not be able to access Bitcoin at the base layer at the cost of on-chain transactions. 13:39 And you're excluding billions of people by being able to insist on these extreme views on what is required with no level of pragmatism. 13:49 In the real world, we need this balance, and we need this pragmatism. 13:52 And with that pragmatism, you're able to service people who either are unbanked because the banking options they have don't exist, 14:00 they're underbanked because the banking options they have are incredibly, almost criminally expensive, 14:06 or they're debanked because they live under the yoke of authoritarian regimes and dictatorships. 14:11 These are the people that we are already working with, and we serve today, right now. 14:16 This isn't theory, this isn't philosophy, this is reality. 14:20 And that's why we need to scale today. 14:22 And I admire a lot of what Obi is saying, because it's very true and it's very legitimate. 14:28 But there is a world where this technology is emerging where we can have the best of both worlds. 14:32 We can service all of these underbanked people, we can have the microtransactions, we can have very scalable stuff, 14:37 but we don't have to take on the trust assumptions, and we can actually mathematically prove the validity of these things happening on layer 2s. 14:44 Is it there yet? I would say no. 14:46 But do we see this light at the end of the tunnel where we could get there? 14:51 Possibly. 14:52 And I think what we're doing at Alp, and some of these other people building the ZK Rollups, 14:55 it's like, we're kind of taking this shot at a home run. 14:58 And I love why we have all these people on the stage, because we have these multiple varying approaches. 15:02 And what we're doing may fail. 15:05 And so I think we need these different alternative solutions. 15:08 But there is a potential path for us to get there, to have that holy grail of what we want, 15:12 of all the stuff that Obi was just mentioning, with the actual Bitcoin ethos of credible decentralization. 15:19 And I think that's, by the way, that's the thing that excites me the most. 15:23 There's a ton of different ideas. 15:25 And Feddy, although we are very much focused on FeddyMint, 15:29 it's what we create is this community super app that's run by and for communities. 15:34 Anytime someone solves that magical sort of Rubik's Cube, 15:38 and is able to create something which is as simple to use as what we have, 15:43 as private as what we have, as scalable as what we have, 15:46 with lower trust assumptions, we'll just add support for that as well. 15:49 It's not an either or. 15:51 And that should continue at the base layer, at the lightning layer, and at any other layer as well. 15:57 And then we as an organization, as a community, add this into whatever we do, and we go forward. 16:03 And I think similarly along those lines, one thing that's been really, really cool, 16:08 and I would commend the Feddy team for being one of the first to 16:13 glom onto this idea, is using lightning as an interoperability layer 16:17 for many different scaling solutions. 16:19 So if you think of the internet as a network of networks, 16:23 patching them all together so it's all one contiguous system, 16:27 that's how with FeddyMints being able to transact over the lightning network 16:32 with existing, either if it's a non-custodial wallet or a custodial wallet, 16:38 you could think of the same exact thing happening where if I have funds in a sidechain, 16:43 we have this live today on the liquid sidechain, 16:47 being able to hold funds on liquid and transact over the lightning network through submarine swaps, 16:53 being able to use lightning as a universal connective tissue 16:58 for all the various Bitcoin layer 2s and Bitcoin connected companies, 17:02 I think makes it easy for new projects to join the community. 17:10 You would much rather, if you're starting a new project, 17:13 just have one lightning service provider provide you access to the entire lightning network 17:17 than have, go and do the BD individually with every single exchange 17:22 and every single wallet to get them to support your new project. 17:25 I think that leveraging lightning as an interoperability layer 17:29 and letting many, many different attempts at scaling Bitcoin connect to that one common tissue 17:34 is really powerful and something that we're going to see a lot of as more projects come to market. 17:40 I think the fragmentation issue is definitely one to watch, 17:44 especially with the layer 2s that you mentioned, David, that there's a lot of them popping up. 17:51 If there's this possibility to use lightning to be this interoperability layer, 17:58 I think that's very positive. 18:00 I wanted to touch back on a point that many of you discussed 18:05 and I think that is central to Bitcoin, which is custody. 18:10 I know we usually see it as self-custody or third-party custody, 18:16 but Obi, you have a very interesting idea of this second-party custody 18:23 that you're able to achieve with FedEments. 18:27 I wanted you to talk a little bit about that. 18:32 Prior to being at FedE, I ran a Bitcoin exchange for nearly a decade, 18:36 the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange. 18:40 That was third-party custody, or nowadays I call it stranger custody. 18:45 You're giving your money to a stranger, effectively. 18:47 They wear a suit, they've got a really nice flashy website, 18:49 but it's someone you don't know. 18:52 The gold standard or the Bitcoin standard is self-custody, 18:55 where you are custodying your own money yourself, 18:59 but it's most complex for most people. 19:02 You have to figure out where you're going to... 19:05 You have to make a backup, which involves recording a number of words, 19:08 12 words, we call it seed. 19:10 You have to find out that that's when your problems start. 19:12 You have to find out where to store it, who to trust to hold it, 19:15 because guess what? 19:16 Most people will give it to a friend, 19:18 then effectively you've given it to someone else, your money. 19:23 Or you dig a hole in the ground and hope no one finds it. 19:27 Then we have something in the middle, which is second-party custody, 19:30 where you're holding your money with trusted friends and family, 19:35 the people that you've known and trusted through your lived-in experience. 19:40 It can be significantly simpler than first-party custody, 19:45 but provide the user experience of third-party custody. 19:50 And so understanding that, 19:52 and after many years of trying to get people to self-custody 19:55 from running an exchange, 19:57 and being told by very intelligent people 20:01 who knew the value of self-custody 20:03 that, unfortunately, they trusted me more than they trusted themselves, 20:07 we realized that they could actually trust second-parties, 20:11 friends and family, 20:12 more than they trusted me as the CEO of an exchange. 20:17 And that sort of nib of an idea led down the line 20:21 to meeting my co-founder, Eric, 20:23 and he introduced this idea, which was FediMint, 20:27 which is this community custody protocol 20:30 which was built on top of eCash and Bitcoin, 20:32 the first eCash protocol run on Bitcoin. 20:35 And it uses second-party trust from your community. 20:39 So it could be a small or still family, 20:41 all the way up to a village or town. 20:43 And you're using the existing trust relationships, 20:45 and we're leveraging that. 20:48 At some point, if we can make that even more trustless, 20:50 that's even better, 20:51 but that's way better than trusting a stranger. 20:53 It's somewhere in the middle. 20:55 Yeah, I think the self-custody point is just so important. 20:59 I think it's going to be very difficult 21:00 for a lot of people to learn this skill, 21:03 but I don't think, if you can learn to drive a car, 21:07 you should be able to learn the BIP39 12-word seed or something. 21:12 And I think we just have to, 21:15 because you were saying before about if we lose 21:18 too much ground on this, 21:20 then the Bitcoin will just be a name. 21:23 It will just be paint over something that is tough. 21:27 Let's take the car metaphor. 21:29 Good. 21:30 Most of the people on the planet are children. 21:33 So how would you deal with them? 21:36 I think the children will learn just fine. 21:38 But of course, children don't have bank accounts. 21:40 Do they have to learn at three years old to self-custody? 21:45 Three or four? 21:46 Well, you know, I think you... 21:47 I mean, like, compared to what, right? 21:49 Most children don't have a bank account. 21:50 But are you suggesting that they should learn how to self-custody? 21:53 I think when I say self-custody, 21:55 I mean, like, they roll their own randomness, 21:57 so they know, like, how to use the wallet generator, 22:00 and which can be, you know, 22:01 like, someone could be like the Apple, 22:02 the Steve Jobs of that or whatever, 22:04 make that much easier. 22:05 I would suggest that's not a pragmatic solution. 22:07 I mean, but something like FedEx, 22:09 like, if you have these more expressive layers, 22:13 like, you could build any of these solutions. 22:14 Like, you would have the trustless solution 22:15 where somebody takes on the personal sovereignty. 22:17 You could have the federation solution. 22:18 It's like giving people all of the options. 22:20 And so, like, one that I'll say is, 22:22 if we have these things like ZK Rollups 22:23 and we have these trustless sidechains 22:25 that have, you know, any form of expressivity 22:27 that you want on them. 22:28 Like, one thing is, like, this phone, 22:29 like, most people don't know, 22:30 it has a hardware wallet inside of it. 22:32 It basically has a ledger inside of it 22:34 called a secure enclave. 22:35 It's like, well, why can't we use this 22:36 to store our private keys in there? 22:38 And those private keys are inaccessible by Apple 22:40 or anybody else in the operating system. 22:42 It's because, you know, you can't currently do it 22:45 with the curve that's used in Bitcoin transactions. 22:49 But if you can move these, again, 22:50 into this trustless expressivity layer, 22:53 like, you could have this 22:54 where any single person in the world 22:55 that has one of these phones, 22:57 this can be their hardware wallet. 22:58 No more seed phrases, no more 12 words. 23:00 Like, my parents or anybody could actually, 23:02 like, securely store their Bitcoin. 23:04 If they want to add multi-sig to that, great. 23:06 If they want to go back to the Bitcoin layer one, great. 23:08 If they want to have a federated model, great. 23:10 But giving all of this optionality 23:12 in the most trust-minimized manner possible, 23:14 like, that's the solution. 23:15 You kind of let this free market of solutions decide. 23:17 That is a pragmatic solution. 23:21 Fundamentally, if you are technically 23:23 strong enough, if you are comfortable enough 23:27 with your own competence, 23:28 and if you are financially capable enough, 23:31 you should absolutely self-custody. 23:33 It is the best option, there's no question. 23:35 But being pragmatic, 23:38 babies and many other people in between 23:41 are not going to meet all of those criteria. 23:44 And that's just the reality of the world. 23:47 And we should offer options for everybody. 23:49 Trying very hard to move them up 23:51 the technical competence journey, 23:53 so that we aim for always everybody self-custodying, 23:57 but recognize that we don't do nothing until that point. 24:02 Yeah, I think the overall theme is that 24:05 different people need different solutions, right? 24:07 And so that's why we have so many people, 24:11 so many great people like you guys, 24:13 building these different options 24:16 for these different people. 24:18 I think one question that I have for you, Paul, 24:22 is that oftentimes, and correct me if I'm wrong, 24:26 but oftentimes Drivechain is touted as 24:29 the upgrade to end all the upgrades, pretty much. 24:34 How would you see a world with Drivechains? 24:38 How would these other solutions 24:42 play a role in that ecosystem? 24:43 Or how do you envision if that comes true? 24:47 What happens to these other options? 24:49 Do they come into Drivechains as Drivechains, or do they... 24:52 I think we should be pluralist, 24:53 and we should try all things. 24:56 I do think that... 24:58 I do think that Drivechain would already work very well. I mean, you might think of it as a meal, where you have appetizer, then the main course, and then desserts, or maybe hors d'oeuvres that are before the appetizer. 25:09 I do think of Drivechain as the main course. I may be wrong about that, of course. I think that there's not as much of a marginal improvement over... 25:21 For example, the ZK-SNARK trustless bridge, every proposal requires that it be supported, at least indirectly, by the L1 miners. 25:32 Because they can shut down and destroy any L2 by either just blocking how you get in or out, or even in much more direct ways, often, since they often rely on some kind of thing being put back on L1, the unilateral exit. 25:46 The unilateral exit is never unilateral, because it's gated by the miners. So I think that often, the miners already have this kind of veto power. 25:56 So either the miners hate your project, and it's dead, and nothing can save it, or the miners are enjoying the project, and they're earning money, they're earning the transaction fees from the L2. 26:07 And in that case, BIP300 is sufficient to make it trustless, since there's no additional assumption needed. So I think that it already offers quite a bit. 26:19 I'm skeptical that other things improve upon that, but of course, people should absolutely be free to do whatever they like. 26:29 I think you're implying that ZK-rollups are incompatible with miner incentives, because they can censor the ZK-proof. 26:36 But in the same way that miners collect fees from Drivechains, you have all these transactions and all this activity that happens on the L2, it's compressed into a zero-knowledge proof, it's posted onto the Bitcoin L1. 26:47 So the miners are, in fact, benefiting hugely from these ZK-rollups. I would argue that ZK-rollups would be the primary reason why the security budget is not an issue moving into the future. 26:58 I think we definitely agree that the merge-mined L2s, or any L2 that passes the transaction fee revenue down to miners, will eventually be 99% or more of the miners' revenue. 27:10 And I said in my little opening statement about hundreds of billions of dollars a year. And of course, this is actually growing, it doubles about every 11 years, as far as I can tell, the total number of transactions on Earth. 27:21 So I completely agree with that. I just think it's easier to just have... I mean, Satoshi already invented merge-minings, a lot of this stuff already exists, and we've been merge-mining Namecoin, which is very, very small, but we've been doing that continuously since 2010. 27:37 And in 2010, Satoshi had a very interesting saying that I wanted to remind everyone here. He said, I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or zero transaction volume. 27:49 And he said that in 2010, so 2030 would be when he, you know, if you take that very seriously, that would be the time when it would either go big. 27:58 I mean, if we want to live in a world where everyone is using Bitcoin, that is how we maximize the chance of getting to this tens of millions of dollars per coin price, and we don't want to go the other way, to zero. 28:12 One additional point that is a meta point, you know, regardless of the specific path the community decides to pursue, the key to then actually scaling that solution and using it to bring users on board to Bitcoin is by making really user-friendly software, right? 28:29 That is kind of table stakes, especially now in a world with, you know, well-funded competition. And so I think, you know, making software that's very friendly for developers, getting developers to start building products, making sure that those products are user-friendly for users, and, you know, allow kind of a simple and intuitive interface for whatever layer of Bitcoin that they're operating at is, you know, table stakes. 28:53 And I think that's one thing that, you know, we have always been blown away and amazed at the Bitcoin development community. I mean, we launched this new Taproot assets upgrade on Tuesday and already have people tweeting out, you know, new projects that they're building, you know, new additions to the protocol that they're making and, you know, ways to kind of, you know, bring the protocol itself to the world in a user-friendly and easily digestible way. 29:20 And so just want to make sure, and I know all the folks up here are well aware of that, that that's something that the community always keeps top of mind because, you know, the best technology doesn't always win. But, you know, the technology that solves the best pain points that users are asking for has a much better chance. 29:38 Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, Feddy as a company, as I say, we make this community super app. What we've done is try to make something which is incredibly simple to use, but uses all these technologies. It uses Lightning, it uses FeddyMint. And if in future, when you launch and it reaches adoption, we'll be using those as well. It also uses Nostra, etc. 29:59 But there's another thing that's really important beyond making an incredible experience. It's actually having users who are not just in the Bitcoin ecosystem, but it's the 99% of people on the planet who are not in the ecosystem and getting them into the ecosystem using this technology. 30:15 Which is why, for example, we're about to announce there's a major international NGO, Save the Children, for example, who is a 100-year-old company, an organization who we are partnering with to trial and roll out these technologies like Lightning, Bitcoin, Nostra, etc. 30:36 And they are using FeddyMint, of course, and they are using it because after analyzing all other blockchains, they realized that this is the one that solves the problems for them. 30:45 Awesome. Yeah, we are already running a little bit over here. So I wanted to thank you, our panelists here for an amazing panel. And thank you everyone who showed up and enjoyed the rest of the conference. 31:00 Thank you. 31:06 Next year, we are bringing the Bitcoin conference to the American West, Las Vegas. 31:17 The brightest minds in the world will converge to deliver Bitcoin history. 31:22 Buy your tickets now at b.tc slash conference slash 2025.