0:00 Hello everybody, Richard Hart here with Paul Sztorc. 0:09 You pronounced it right, that's amazing, you pronounced it right without asking me beforehand. 0:14 How did you do that? 0:15 I've been in the space for a while. 0:17 You've been in the space for a while. 0:18 Is that one of your special powers as a vampire, you can, you know how, are you, have you taken, 0:25 you've taken a human form for this conversation I assume? 0:28 I've even turned on the main lights, I'm wearing a lot of sunscreen with the main lights 0:32 on to convince people I'm actually human, so it's a trick I do. 0:36 Good. 0:37 I'm sorry that, guys, I don't have Wi-Fi, I've tried to get it very hard today, but 0:41 this wasn't in the cards, so you can't see me probably. 0:46 Yeah, Paul's not where he normally is, so he's got crappy internet, so we're doing it 0:50 with his voice and my face, sorry for you guys. 0:54 Voice only. 0:55 The good news is Paul's smarter than me, so you guys should be able to learn something. 0:59 I should be able to learn something too. 1:01 So give me a... 1:02 I would help him learn something too, I don't know, I don't really know anything about, 1:05 I only know a few things about hex, so I'm happy to learn, personally. 1:11 Well, I thought we were going to talk about Bitcoin scaling, I don't even know what you 1:15 want to talk about. 1:16 You know, you just kind of threw that in, he threw that in, dear audience members, he 1:20 just kind of threw that in, the title, he didn't even, you know... 1:23 We didn't have a plan. 1:24 I thought we were going to talk about blockchain scaling, because I think it is actually pretty 1:27 interesting. 1:28 Sure. 1:29 We can talk about whatever you want, man. 1:30 And my audience has already heard enough about hex for a while, I mean, let's talk about 1:33 some Bitcoin stuff, if it's okay with you, unless you get... 1:37 It helps to try to compare blockchain to the Lightning Network, so actually that's kind 1:42 of like one of my favorite ways of explaining it. 1:44 Well, hold on, don't do that yet, let me tell everyone who you are. 1:47 So you're a professor, aren't you? 1:50 No, that's not really the case, but I did work as a researcher, which is sort of what 1:58 really professors want to spend all their time doing. 2:02 Academia is very complicated, but yeah, I have a background in academia, and I did work 2:09 as a statistician in the Yale Economics Department. 2:13 All right, so working at Yale isn't too bad, right? 2:16 Not bad, not bad at all. 2:19 And then you've been trying to get sidechains as a way to add throughput and features to 2:25 Bitcoin for how many years now? 2:27 Well, yeah, I originally published this blog post in November 20, oh, I don't even know, 2:34 2015? 2:35 Yes. 2:36 So it's been about four solid years, although, of course, I wasn't working on Drivechain 2:42 for a lot of that time. 2:44 I had my own project, which is called Bitcoin Hivemind now, and that is a prediction markets 2:51 project that I was originally working on, and it was going to be a sidechain. 2:57 And at the time, I thought, when I was working on that, which is 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 a 3:05 little bit, and still ongoing, I still work on it. 3:08 When I was working on that, I assumed that someone else, especially Blockstream, but 3:13 maybe another dark horse person or rootstock or someone would invent the sidechains connecting 3:20 tissue. 3:21 But then it eventually became clear that no one was going to do that. 3:25 And especially when I started to work on Drivechain, it became clear that there were a lot 3:29 of extremely bizarre ideas and sort of perspectives on how people thought it would have to work 3:38 or the criteria that people thought it would have to meet. 3:41 So before you get too deep, how do you know that it's clear that they wouldn't do it? 3:47 Well, I was just like, I thought the original sidechains white paper from Blockstream, that 3:54 was October 2014, if I remember correctly. 3:57 So that's just a long time between October 2014, November 2015, I published Drivechain, 4:05 and then still in 2016, we basically finished the prediction markets project, Bitcoin Hivemind. 4:12 You can see, if you go to bitcoinhivemind.com, you can see screenshots that have a GUI and 4:17 graphs and things. 4:18 So software's never finished. 4:21 Why doesn't anyone want to scale Bitcoin with sidechains? 4:24 Because if they wanted it, they would do it, right? 4:26 I mean, they wrote the first white paper on it, and then it's just been dead for five 4:30 years? 4:31 No, we have been developing- 4:33 Not you, everyone else. 4:35 And I actually think that it has, I think it's kind of comparable to the Lightning Network 4:41 in complexity. 4:42 So some people ask us, CryptEx and I, CryptEx really does all the work, I just talk to people 4:48 on YouTube. 4:51 But I think people ask us like, what's taking so long? 4:54 But that's kind of like the parallel question to the Lightning Network, like what's taking 4:57 Lightning Network so long? 4:58 I think it's really, it may even be, Drivechain may even be more, it may involve more 5:04 like debugging than Lightning Network, I don't know about the overall complexity. 5:08 From what I've seen, they don't give a fuck to engage you at all, and they don't care 5:11 about what you're doing enough to even understand it, to debate you. 5:14 And you can't even get these guys to talk to you, is what I've seen. 5:18 You may have seen my, I have a page, I have a drivechain.info, I have a page, and then 5:22 I have a part where I say, here's the peer review, especially responding to two criticisms, 5:29 and you can see- 5:30 That's better. 5:31 Like some criticisms is better than no engagement. 5:33 Yeah. 5:34 You can overcome criticism, you can't overcome silence. 5:37 Obviously I appreciate all criticism. 5:40 Some have, some of these critiques have just persisted for years, despite my attempts to 5:45 just like completely refute them, like as much as possible. 5:49 I think the critique everyone has is that the sidechain will be insecure due to hash 5:54 things. 5:55 One is that people think that the miners will steal from the sidechain, but that is really 6:00 the, that would be trivial to prevent. 6:02 I don't know exactly where people are coming from with that, because that is exactly what 6:05 makes it a sidechain, and what makes it firewalls from you. 6:09 That is your license to not care about anything that happens there. 6:13 If it was impossible, if it was somehow enforced on layer one, which would be trivial to do. 6:18 Don't the layer two guys just get fucked in that example? 6:22 Excuse me? 6:23 I didn't understand. 6:24 What did you say? 6:25 Well, you're saying that it's a firewall and that you don't care what happens to the layer 6:28 two guys, because layer one's isolated from it. 6:32 But is there an objection that- 6:33 No, I'm referring to, and I think of sidechains, or specifically, I guess, Drivechain, I don't 6:39 know what other sidechains are around, but I think of them as a layer two. 6:44 When I say layer two, I mean when you send money to a specific sidechain software, you 6:50 send something to Rootstock or whatever. 6:52 Let me start from scratch. 6:57 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that sidechains are less secure than the main chain. 7:02 Would you agree with that? 7:03 Yes. 7:04 It's like layer two, there's an additional, there's a couple of senses in which they're 7:09 more secure, which is kind of funny. 7:12 And I have a blog post about this, if people are interested, it's- 7:15 You're going to have to do a short version, bro, because you're going to run out of attention 7:17 span at some point. 7:18 I'll go for eight hours, but you won't. 7:20 But yes, there's an additional, there are more moving parts and more security assumptions, 7:27 so- 7:28 Okay. 7:29 Well, you've got twice the attack surface, at least, because if the main chain's fucked, 7:34 you're fucked. 7:35 And then if you're fucked, you're fucked. 7:36 So there's at least twice that. 7:38 And then whatever you did that's new is likely to be less secure than what's been around 7:42 for 10 years and barely changed, it has more eyeballs on it. 7:46 So then like, so I mean, I would say, and then, I mean, it seems at least two thirds 7:52 less secure to me there, but what are the security assumptions you said were stronger 7:56 on the sidechain? 7:57 Well, one is that the sidechain is sort of more protected from reorgs because, well, 8:03 the sidechain withdraws specifically because they take so long to go through that no one 8:08 is going to reorg for like three months and not reorg for less time than that. 8:15 So there are a couple elements of it that are actually- 8:19 Completely over my head. 8:20 What you can do is you can move- 8:21 What the fuck are you talking about? 8:22 And then you can swap with someone else so that you don't actually have to go through 8:26 the process of- 8:27 Hey, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. 8:28 If I don't get it, nobody listening gets it, man. 8:31 So let's get back up a little bit. 8:33 Well, you know, I'm not- 8:34 Reorg. 8:35 I understand exactly what you're saying and I would love to communicate the ideas better, 8:40 but at the same time, I do often think about how when Satoshi published Bitcoin for the 8:46 first time, basically everyone hated it and misunderstood it, even on the Cypherpunk mailing 8:51 list where you think they would be most likely to understand it. 8:54 And after all, this is a Friedrich Hayek kind of world that we should actually think less 8:59 and less of. 9:00 I don't think what you're saying is complicated. 9:01 I just think that we went over it too quick. 9:03 You're talking about a difference in reorgs. 9:06 So a reorg is when there's a certain chain that everyone believes in and then you go, 9:11 oh, actually, hey, I found this other chain that has more hash weight or a higher block 9:16 height and so we're just going to say that that's the authoritative chain, orphan that 9:20 other thing, fork it away, it's gone now, and we just rewrote history basically. 9:25 That's what a reorg is, right? 9:27 Yes. 9:28 Okay. 9:29 So now everyone knows what a reorg is. 9:30 We went down the chain a little bit and then we said, hey, fuck it, actually, we're going 9:34 to go back in time and we're going to make it as though we went this other way instead. 9:38 It requires mining effort to like, you're like cutting it, you're like digging a ditch. 9:42 It happens all the time, but to a lower block density. 9:45 It's a new canal, so it takes more effort. 9:47 Right. 9:48 It happens all the time, but it just doesn't happen very deep. 9:51 For a withdrawal, they're intentionally very, very, very slow. 9:56 So there's really no... 9:57 You're talking about on the sidechain you're talking about. 9:59 Yes. 10:00 It comes back from the sidechain to the main chain. 10:02 But again, as you say, I don't know. 10:04 So we won't get into the security trade-offs of the difference between a reorg on a main 10:08 chain and a reorg. 10:09 I just want to say there's many, you know, with Lightning, there's many, and with DroneChain, 10:13 there's many, and with all kinds of things there are. 10:16 I tried to promote the shit out of your project a couple of years ago, and no one gave a fuck. 10:21 Oh, thank you. 10:22 Because I wanted to see a lot of good things happen on Bitcoin, because I saw Ethereum 10:27 and all the new money with their ERC20 tokens, where anyone could start a ticker symbol and 10:33 go raise a zillion dollars with a ticker symbol and a dream. 10:36 And they were getting all that money, and then Bitcoin wasn't getting any of it, because 10:40 you couldn't put a ticker symbol on Bitcoin. 10:42 And it was the easiest thing you could think of to add. 10:45 We just need ticker symbols, man. 10:47 That's where all the money is. 10:48 Can we have that? 10:49 Well, hindsight is 20-20. 10:51 But yeah, certainly I think that, I mean, Bitcoin, you could have done it. 10:55 There were projects, as you know. 10:57 Well, yeah, Counterparty and Omni, and now there's a fork of Bitcoin called Raven that 11:02 does ticker symbols. 11:03 Exactly, right. 11:04 Because we fucking need these things. 11:06 No, the sidechains were supposed to be, originally, a long time ago, this is like 2014, possibly 11:12 even, maybe even December 2013, if you go to IRC chat or something, this was supposed 11:19 to be the response to these new ideas. 11:22 The history of Bitcoin is like, Bitcoin came out, it was super new and impressive, and 11:27 people started making copies of it that were really just quite just terrible, or just at 11:32 least not very creative, something with Litecoin, where it was just a copy-paste. 11:37 And so it's kind of sort of insultingly simple. 11:41 The marginal effort was zero compared to the effort that Satoshi put in to make it from 11:46 a blank piece of paper. 11:50 By then, though, in 2014, you did have things. 11:53 I mean, people like to tell this story where Ethereum was a success and Bitcoin should 11:58 have been on top of it. 11:59 And there's some truth in that. 12:01 You're saying Ethereum should have been on top of Bitcoin? 12:03 No, no, no. 12:04 I mean, people want to get, they want to buy into that story, that was the sense in which 12:08 I mean, that people want to get, they want to get, they would like to take that point 12:12 of view. 12:13 That Ethereum is more successful than Bitcoin? 12:17 No, that Ethereum had some useful things to offer. 12:20 Okay. 12:21 Well, it does. 12:22 I know that it does. 12:23 Right. 12:24 Well, a lot of people feel that way, but I just want to bring up that there's a little 12:29 bit of... 12:30 Feel that way? 12:31 What? 12:32 Well, there's a little bit of survivor bias, because... 12:33 Dog, we have this argument right now, this is an easy one. 12:37 Ethereum beats the fuck out of Bitcoin. 12:39 Badly. 12:40 Do you understand what I'm talking about, though? 12:41 The point I'm trying to make is that... 12:43 I mean, it sounds to me like the point you're trying to make is that everyone thought Bitcoin 12:48 was going to be the programmable money, and then everyone that tried to program on top 12:52 of it got ass-fucked, like Counterparty, when they changed the opcode size, like Omni, which 12:57 trades less than $300 a day now. 13:00 And so there's two companies that tried to build on top of Bitcoin, they failed entirely. 13:04 Now there's a... 13:05 Go ahead. 13:06 Yes, you raised some good points, but I think it's really not so much the opcode change, 13:12 it's really more the culture. 13:14 That, I agree, I agree. 13:15 They don't want people building on their shit. 13:17 And it did, in fact, obviously, survive the opcode data bytes shortening. 13:27 So that's really not that, it's really more the culture of who is... 13:32 They don't want to fork your shit in there, and they don't want to work with you, and 13:36 they don't want to change anything, and they don't want you building on top of Bitcoin. 13:40 And they're only letting... 13:41 It's especially ironic with mine, because mine is sort of itself the escape hatch that 13:46 would let new software on without existing Bitcoin Core developers being able to veto 13:54 it at all. 13:55 So mine is like the sort of the one, it's just the one thing you need to get all of 14:01 that stuff back using BTC, but not on layer one. 14:07 I think that's a total fucking waste of time, and I used to not. 14:10 And here's my belief on that. 14:12 So it used to be the case that everyone thought Bitcoin was the most secure, and they probably 14:19 still do think Bitcoin's the most secure. 14:21 But when you objectively measure it, and you see which network has had more failures, and 14:25 which network has a worse mining ecosystem, and which network is less likely to make progress, 14:30 and less likely to get consensus to roll in any improvements, Bitcoin is terrible compared 14:35 to Ethereum. 14:36 So ASIC mining is 65% in China. 14:40 You can't mine on the network to defend it if you wanted to. 14:43 But on Ethereum, you can be a GPU guy, and a hobbyist, and start mining, and freeing 14:48 them on board, but you can't Bitcoin. 14:51 And how many forks has Ethereum had rolling out new improvements and becoming a better 14:56 network? 14:57 And Bitcoin has had nothing since SegWit two years ago, just incremental maintenance upgrades, 15:02 no feature upgrades whatsoever. 15:04 They won't even engage with you, a guy that's been trying to improve the product for four 15:06 or five years. 15:08 Everyone that used to work on Bitcoin is now making money on things that aren't Bitcoin. 15:11 They're working on Lightning instead. 15:13 They're working on Liquid instead. 15:15 They're doing everything else instead. 15:18 And the history of the security is actually fraudulent. 15:21 Bitcoin has had two inflation bugs, which is the worst bug you can possibly have. 15:25 And it's spaghetti code that's not modular, and there's no bug bounty program. 15:29 And so what good thing, why the fuck would anyone build on top of Bitcoin instead of 15:33 Ethereum? 15:34 That was a lot of points. 15:35 OK, so first of all, I do think that Bitcoin's technology is superior to Ethereum's, and 15:42 we see that Ethereum's lack of foresight kind of is coming out in various ways with problems, 15:49 running nodes and centralization. 15:52 That story has been told many times, and you did make many points here. 15:56 Let me see. 15:57 I can go slow and just list them again, because it's important. 15:59 I think one thing to point out is that it shouldn't really matter with the whole point 16:05 of sidechains and with Drivechain and really with open source philosophy in general and 16:11 really Friedrich Hayek or Karl Popper kind of philosophy on life is that it shouldn't 16:19 really matter who's right or wrong as long as we have a path toward deleting the mistakes 16:24 and making ongoing progress. 16:26 So it's kind of neat that Drivechain... 16:29 There's a lot of friction. 16:30 Whether you believe that Ethereum is better than Bitcoin Core or whether you think Bitcoin 16:35 Cash is better than either or whatever you believe, you can use whichever software you 16:40 like. 16:41 It's the same 21 million coins. 16:42 I don't agree with anything you just said. 16:46 I don't agree with any of that. 16:48 OK. 16:49 So you're ignoring that friction exists. 16:51 So you're making this binary selection, false choice that libertarians tend to make, which 16:57 is OK, survival of the fittest. 17:00 And so we'll just try everything and then whatever works is what we'll stick with. 17:04 And if that shit worked, then every neural net in the stock market would just make infinite 17:08 money. 17:09 But it turns out that your ability to experiment is restricted by some input resource and you 17:14 run out of input resource after you run so many experiments. 17:18 And so you have finite time to build stuff. 17:21 You have finite places to try it out. 17:23 You have finite mind share to try and get people to adopt it. 17:26 And if you fail any one of those things, your whole project fails. 17:30 You have to get them all right. 17:31 I agree with that. 17:32 I think that's great. 17:33 But it's not particularly relevant in this case because we have the finite input that 17:37 you point out, which is absolutely the case. 17:40 But in our case, finite though it is, it has already produced this. 17:43 It has already produced Ethereum, it has already produced it shares, it has already produced 17:48 Ravencoin. 17:49 Do you think it's useful for people to know that Ethereum has never had an inflation bug, 17:53 but Bitcoin's had two? 17:55 Well, you know, that was on your earlier list, so you have to let me get through all of your 17:58 I don't mind. 17:59 I'm not trying to. 18:00 I'm not trying to skip past anything, bro. 18:01 I want to learn. 18:03 You are saying about this creativity is finite, and I agree. 18:07 And that is neural nets do not have insufficient creativity. 18:10 And I completely agree with that. 18:12 So this is though survival of the fittest in a case where many of the things have already 18:17 been created. 18:18 So not only we don't, I'm not going to say we don't need creativity in this case because 18:21 we always need it wherever we can get it. 18:23 But someone has already produced Zcash. 18:27 So we didn't have to have someone think of it and think of how do we do the... 18:31 My position is this. 18:33 I think if other people do what you did and try and build on Bitcoin, they'll suffer the 18:36 same fate that you did and waste four years of your life. 18:38 If you would have built that shit on Ethereum, it would have already been done and rolled 18:41 out. 18:42 This is another thing that, well, you know, as soon as I finish with Ethereum, they're 18:45 going to steal it and call it sharding and say it was their idea the whole time. 18:49 So whatever. 18:50 That's fine. 18:51 They can do that if they want. 18:52 That's fine. 18:53 That's the idea. 18:54 Do you want them to do that? 18:55 I agree. 18:56 Yeah. 18:57 No, I say I have to say something else, though, which is that it's not true that I've been 19:00 just totally like kicked out of Bitcoin core discussions. 19:04 In fact, earlier this year, I was invited to Austin BitDevs to give a talk about sidechaining. 19:10 You should be. 19:11 You're one of the few guys trying. 19:12 You're one of the few guys trying to add features to Bitcoin. 19:15 We're still refining and debugging the software. 19:17 So that's my number one priority is to make sure that I'm testing the software and making 19:22 sure that it is. 19:24 So it's not even though the idea was really finished and has not changed very much since 19:28 November 2015, the actual software obviously has changed substantially. 19:36 And that is there's a lot, you know, the details matter a lot, as you know, and as everyone 19:42 who touches software knows, it takes much longer than you anticipate. 19:46 You know, and, you know, I don't know you guys in the audience, you don't know how little 19:50 effort I'm really putting in traveling around the world and doing whatever I want to do. 19:55 I think if you care a lot about this problem, about this problem that people disagree about 20:00 what their blockchain software should do, and there's no clear way to resolve disputes 20:06 over what's too ambitious to change and what isn't, then I think, yeah, a lot of people 20:10 should be signing up to volunteer and help. 20:13 But at the same time, I realize it's confusing. 20:17 But I do want to say that it's not completely the case. 20:19 A lot of people are supporters. 20:23 And it's some many extremely influential people at Blockstream and at Lightning in the Lightning 20:31 community are some of the biggest supporters, which is very funny and ironic and often kind 20:38 of overlooked. 20:39 You're going to throw any money into Blockstream cloud mining? 20:42 No, I'm sorry, what did you say? 20:46 I'm not going to put any money in cloud mining. 20:48 Blockstream cloud mining. 20:49 You're going to throw any money into it? 20:50 I personally, well, in mining, you know, as someone with a little bit of experience in 20:55 economic theory, you know, mining is that's such a brutally competitive thing. 20:59 You can't do that unless you have some kind of edge that no one else... 21:02 I'm being snarky, but you're missing it. 21:04 I'm not trying to actually talk about mining. 21:06 I'm trying to talk about centralization. 21:08 I don't like that Blockstream has liquid and cloud mining and an ICO launching platform 21:15 and is in charge of the Bitcoin core repository. 21:18 I don't like that. 21:19 Well, they were afraid, you know, they built a lot of things they were afraid that other 21:23 people had. 21:24 They built themselves. 21:25 They compete. 21:26 One thing where I think is a critique of Blockstream that, well, I have two critiques of Blockstream 21:32 that people don't make a lot. 21:34 One is really how little they actually do, considering all the people that they have 21:38 hired or have worked there for so long and all the money they have, they really don't 21:43 produce very much. 21:44 But the second critique I would make that a lot of people don't make is this cultural 21:47 direction, which, again, is much more important. 21:50 What's in people's minds is much more important than any formal governance institution. 21:57 Sure. 21:58 We have speed limits in the United States, but we also have rules about on the highway, 22:03 you can go five or seven or ten maybe miles above it if everyone else is. 22:10 You know, in other countries, there are totally different rules about how to drive. 22:12 You see some of these videos. 22:13 They're very funny. 22:14 Yeah. 22:16 So what's in people's mind is really important, and that is one place where if employees from 22:24 Blockstream, just one or two of them say that the project might not be good for whatever 22:31 reason, that is enough to completely obliterate discussion of the project, which is a real 22:38 threat that people don't talk about. 22:42 So here's this dilemma, right? 22:45 It's an open source project. 22:46 If you don't like what someone's doing, shut the fuck up and do a better job yourself because 22:51 that's how it works, right? 22:52 So on one side, I'm like, yeah, let them do whatever they want. 22:55 They're a company. 22:56 They need to eat. 22:57 They need to make money. 22:58 Let them do whatever they want. 22:59 Stop shit talking. 23:00 I feel that on one side. 23:01 And on the other side, it's like they decided to reap the rewards of representing like they 23:08 ran shit and kind of do run shit. 23:11 And so since if you're going to reap the rewards of acting like running shit and then actually 23:14 run shit, well, then people are going to look to you to be responsible with that position. 23:19 So I'm kind of torn on whether to ream them a new asshole or to just let them do stupid 23:25 things. 23:27 I don't know. 23:28 I don't know what's best for the world. 23:29 Like I. 23:30 Yeah. 23:31 I mean, they've evolved into a kind of a weird place because they have evolved a lot of prestige 23:35 that they kind of didn't want. 23:38 But then they did want it in order to defeat SegWit2x and then they were like, but we 23:41 never really wanted it. 23:43 Right. 23:44 And now they're in a weird spot. 23:45 They are in a really weird spot. 23:47 And there's tremendous diversity at Blockstream. 23:50 There are many people that I think are just the best, absolute best people. 23:54 And there's other people who are like, well, many people have left also, but there's a 23:58 lot of turnover. 23:59 A lot of people have quit. 24:00 People have been let go again. 24:02 I think some of the people who let go is I was amazed they ever got within 100 miles 24:06 of the front door in the first place. 24:08 And other people who were let go, I'm just like, why were they let go? 24:12 So, you know, I don't know. 24:14 I mean, look, from my perspective, I think they have an absolutely abysmal business model 24:18 and that it was a bad business to start in the first place. 24:21 So it's weird to do corporate analysis when we're talking about open source stuff, but 24:26 since they have so much control over the project and so much say in the space, I think it's 24:29 worth our time. 24:31 If you start a business. 24:32 I don't really want to. 24:33 It's like, as I say, the critique I think I would make is that they don't actually do 24:39 very much. 24:40 I think they acquired Green Wallet or Green, I think it was the company was Green Wallet, 24:46 I think. 24:47 Or was the company Green Address? 24:48 I don't know. 24:49 Green Address, I believe. 24:50 Like, you know, they have great people who are there, who do their own thing, but they 24:54 could do their own thing on their own to do it there, you know, something like Andrew 24:57 Polstrom or something. 24:58 So I don't know. 25:00 Like, I think, I do think their presence is kind of a distraction. But also, I feel like if they're not producing code, they're just in the fucking way, like, would it set a bad precedent if they just gave up and on the company, but then just reform something similar, or just shuffled all those people into chain code or something? Like, what difference? Would it make any difference or make anything better? I don't think it would make any difference. I mean, developers develop and they just need paid, but the brand sort of looms. 25:27 It just looms in everyone's space. And that is, it's very frightening, because it is kind of... 25:34 It's centralized. It's a central party that has a lot of power. And lately, it doesn't seem like they're doing good things with it. 25:42 Well, it does over the culture. I mean, it's very common to criticize Blockstream when people really just want to criticize the Bitcoin's stance as being very conservative about what it lets in. 25:55 Although I say that, and then you were talking about the spaghetti code, which I wanted to react to, because yes, I think that the code in BTC is sort of very high quality on one hand, but also just like abysmally sane on the other hand. 26:10 And in particular, there's one moment that I think is instructive is when they deleted, you know, main.cpp from the project, but they did so in a way that was almost like gleeful. 26:21 And isn't this funny? Which I think is almost disrespectful to the technical community. 26:27 Obviously, when people learn C++ on day one, they learn that every project has to have main.cpp and now they're deleting it, which is like this weirdo thing. 26:38 Although that comment does not, you know, a lot of these comments do not apply specifically to Blockstream, as I've been trying to say. 26:45 This is a general thing. 26:48 I don't want to be hard on them. I'm not like, I lose followers every time I tell the truth about Bitcoin, every time I tell what's really going on Bitcoin, I lose followers and it pisses people off because I've got a bag of Bitcoin, they've got a bag of Bitcoin. 27:04 And when you speak the truth about Bitcoin, everyone thinks they're going to lose money. 27:08 So it makes me sad. 27:10 But we have evolved a culture of promoting the price of Bitcoin at the expense of talking about the real world. 27:23 And so it has become increasingly kind of gossipy and self-referential. 27:29 Yep. And tribal. 27:31 If you have a say in the space and you're price positive, then you get to keep your say. 27:42 But as soon as you say something negative about price, like, hey, we might do a bear market, or if you say, hey, I want these technical decisions to be different, then you're ostracized and it's like you don't exist anymore. 27:53 Which isn't how it doesn't it doesn't keep them intelligent. 27:58 It doesn't keep them updated. 27:59 They just keep cutting off different information sources until all you're left with is an echo chamber of meat eating. 28:06 You know, like. 28:09 Yeah, so it's very challenging. 28:11 I mean, you know, at a certain scale, it's challenging to manage everyone's thoughts and opinions, you know, like you can't discussion has like this. 28:20 And squared thing, the more people show up, everyone's got to talk to everyone else, right? 28:24 So what humans have done bars number just one. 28:28 Do you want to do you want to talk about hex a bit? 28:30 Just because I feel like we're about halfway through, you'll get bored or some shit or your phone will die or something. 28:34 Yeah, well, let's hear about it. 28:36 I've heard there's so much drama about it. 28:37 This is some kind of like hard fork, but it's not a theorem. 28:40 No, you credit. 28:42 Yeah, but it is. I know you're not going to say it's a hard fuck, but in my view, there's not anything that takes to you take so sad. 28:47 Oh, OK, then. Sure. 28:48 If you believe using UTXO as a fork, then yes, it is. 28:52 I think I mean, using Bitcoin's database and who owns which coins. 28:57 Sure. Yes, it does use that. 28:58 Maybe I'm just revealing how little I know about it. 29:00 No, it does. It does. 29:01 You know, you made a lot of people talk about it. 29:03 So you have the X factor. 29:05 Wow. Yeah, they're saying great things. 29:08 Great things. We were like seven of 10 pages on the front page of cryptocurrency subreddit yesterday or the day before. 29:15 It's pretty funny. 29:16 Yeah, everyone talks about me and not the software, which is funny because the software is the only thing that matters. 29:22 Of course. No, as I said, it's gotten very self-referential and gossipy. 29:26 That's unfortunate. 29:28 So what I invented. 29:30 Well, there's a lot to say about you, Richard, as we know, as I've also heard. 29:34 But, you know, you don't have any of that story. 29:36 Well, I like me and I could talk about me all day, but everyone that's watching has heard me do that. 29:41 So I'll give you the I'll give you the short version of what hex is. 29:46 Hex is the world's first blockchain time deposit. 29:49 CD certificate for deposit bond GSC, I think they call it in Canada. 29:56 It's got a different name or GIC in Canada. 30:00 It's got a different name in every country for some reason. 30:02 But basically, you're just saying if you lock your money for longer, you get more interest. 30:07 We're the first cryptocurrency in the world to do that. 30:09 I don't know why. It's the second most popular product of the bank. 30:12 It seems like an absolute no brainer that if you want to get rid of banks, you got to get rid of all their products. 30:17 The second most popular product there is the time deposit. 30:19 And so we built that. 30:22 Now, what does Bitcoin do? 30:24 Bitcoin only rewards one behavior. 30:27 It does not reward developers. 30:29 Developers do not get free Bitcoin. 30:31 It does not reward marketers. 30:32 Marketers do not get free Bitcoin. 30:35 It does not reward auditors. 30:37 The only people that are rewarded in Bitcoin with Bitcoin are people that burn electricity. 30:43 Pay electric companies to do so and pollute the environment as the security model. 30:48 Those are the only people that are rewarded in Bitcoin. 30:51 Well, that sucks. There's a better way to incentivize people to have honest and good action. 30:57 If you control the money supply, you can say if you perform this good action, you get some inflation. 31:03 If you perform this good action, you get some inflation. 31:06 And so in Bitcoin, there's only two pumpamentals. 31:09 You could double click an exe and get some free coins, which weren't worth barely anything when they when they when you got them. 31:16 Like when I was mining full 50 block rewards solo with no pool, it was only worth twenty five dollars. 31:22 Wasn't worth much. And then, you know, the price went up and then you weren't able to do that anymore. 31:27 Double click an exe to get some free coins to stop working. 31:30 So freemium went away and the one pumpamental that did stay is that the inflation rate would drop in half every four years. 31:37 And so actually, in the past, Bitcoin was very inflationary, which is the only way that you can go from zero coins to 18 million coins is by inflating a lot because they went from nothing to 18 million in 10 years. 31:53 So what did I do? 31:56 I said, all right, what do we want? 31:57 We want to have a referral program to pay people inflation for when they were for other people because it's successful in every industry that uses it. 32:05 Excellent. What else do we want to do? 32:06 We want to stop overpaying miners for security theater. 32:09 In the old days, you used to pay miners to protect you from other people attacking you because there was other people that could attack you. 32:15 Now, there's not the people that you're protecting yourself from are the same people you're paying. 32:21 There's no other parties with shot to five, six mining hardware. 32:23 They're going to attack you that aren't already mining. 32:26 So it's a protection racket. 32:27 They dump the price a million dollars an hour. 32:30 All time high hash rate price is three times lower than all time high. 32:34 Maximum cell pressure from the miners sucks, shoves the coin price down and they don't talk to you on Twitter. 32:40 They don't care what you have to say. 32:42 They tried to make their own, you know, fork a Bitcoin to kill the original one, which wasn't very nice. 32:49 So I don't I would like to see miners stop being overpaid and dumping the price. 32:53 And I would like to see people paid to refer people. 32:55 And I would like to see inflation only paid to stakers. 32:58 And the longer you lock, the more you're rewarded. 33:00 And then we're paying stakers to hold the price up and staying instead of paying miners to dump the price. 33:05 This is all awesome, innovative stuff. 33:09 So what do we do? 33:11 We take the Bitcoin UTXO set, we pull out Mt. 33:14 Gox so that they can't just dump coins for free, like what they did with Bitcoin cash, selling 60,000 or 40,000 Bitcoin cash in the market. 33:22 To enrich Mark Karpolos, well, that's a stupid idea. 33:25 Bitcoin cash, guys, you should have been smart like me and fix that. 33:28 So I fixed it because I did better than they did. 33:32 So I removed Mt. 33:33 Gox from the UTXO set, made a Merkle top hash or Merkle root, call it what you will. 33:37 Same thing. 33:39 And now you can free claim hex with your Bitcoin signature if you held Bitcoin at December 1st, 7 p.m. 33:48 EST. 33:49 Now, multi-sig can't claim, penalizes whales, many, many exchanges use multi-sig and whales themselves are penalized 50 to 75 percent. 34:00 So it activates at a thousand Bitcoin. 34:03 You get cut by 50 percent and then it scales up to 75 percent cut at 10,000 coins and then it stays there. 34:11 It's worth noting that 42 percent of all Bitcoin is held in addresses that hold over a thousand BTC. 34:18 And there's only 2000 such addresses, which means that 42 percent of Bitcoin is controlled by 2000 addresses. 34:27 And most people have more than one address. 34:29 So it's very likely to be less than 2000 entities. 34:32 So it's an extremely concentrated centralized system, which would be fine if you were one of those centralized parties, then you would feel good. 34:38 You know, people that aren't whales wish the whales would go away. 34:41 People that are whales love being a whale. 34:43 So hex doesn't hex doesn't get rid of the concept of whales. 34:46 It just kills the old ones. 34:48 And makes new ones of which you might be one. 34:51 So what else do we have in there? 34:53 So longer pays better. 34:54 Bigger pays better. 34:56 Free claim it. 34:57 You can transform a theorem into hex. 34:59 There's a bucket every day, one bucket full of hex, one empty bucket. 35:02 People put ETH into that bucket. 35:04 If you're 10 percent of the ETH bucket, you get 10 percent of the hex. 35:07 End of the day, the bucket's empty. 35:08 Next day, new buckets. 35:10 And that happens for 351 days, which is basically what EOS did and raised $4.2 billion doing. 35:16 So it's a very successful launch mechanism. 35:20 We're very different from EOS in that they had nothing but promises and expectations with no network. 35:25 And we have no expectations and no promises and totally complete audited three times network done. 35:33 So it's the opposite. 35:35 We're the opposite of an ICO. 35:37 No promises and all product. 35:39 And that's really good. 35:41 Well, thank you. 35:41 You know, you deserve, you deserve a lot of people should give you. 35:46 Some respect for that, because the trend of just immediately raising with having done no work, collecting all the money in advance and then usually not even shipping anything is that was one of the most. 36:01 Disheartening developments from the last five years that that was just so prominent and ridiculous. 36:09 I agree. 36:10 I agree completely. 36:11 You have a lot of bullet points there. 36:12 That was crazy. 36:13 So this is kind of like a custom hard fork. 36:14 So it already happened. 36:15 December 1st was the December 1st. 36:18 7 p.m. was a snapshot. 36:19 And then the contract launched on a theorem as an ERC 20 the next day. 36:25 And then that was the day that the lobbies opened to start, like, turning a theorem into hex. 36:30 And then the next day, the free claiming opened because the, you know, the buckets empty at the end of the day. 36:36 And that would synchronize the free claimers and the transformers. 36:39 The adoption amplifier guys would synchronize them. 36:41 So you could both start their stakes at the same time. 36:44 Now, to tell you how successful this project has been, over one billion dollars of BTC has free claimed their hex, which is over 26000 Bitcoin addresses, over 146000 BTC and over 46000 stakes have been made and were the second most popular app on a theorem, sometimes the first most popular. 37:05 It's been that way since it's launched. 37:09 So that's very exciting. 37:10 So you didn't you did you have many again, you had many points. 37:15 And it was difficult for me to understand, particularly that part about Mt. 37:18 Gox. I don't think I understood at all what you're talking about. 37:21 Oh, well, the Mt. 37:21 Gox trustee in Japan is licensed by the court to manage the funds that used to be in Mt. 37:27 Gox, the Bitcoin. 37:29 And he used to have 200,000 BTC or 193,000. 37:33 And he sold to pay creditors 40,000 Bitcoin and 40,000 Bitcoin cash. 37:39 How it seemed to make the reasonable decision at the time, didn't it? 37:43 Say again. 37:44 It seems like a reasonable decision at the time. 37:46 Oh, well, I mean, sure, for him and for the creditors and for Mark Carpolis, it's actually to get that money before anyone else does. 37:53 And then they're going to have to resue him for it, I think, is how that's going to work. 37:57 Yeah, it's great for those guys. 37:58 But is it good for the people that believed in Bitcoin cash to give this guy a bunch of free money so he could dump it on their heads? 38:04 It's a terrible idea. 38:05 Didn't do anything good for the world. 38:07 Giving the trustee of Mt. 38:09 Gox free money to dump the Bitcoin cash price is a terrible, horrible, stupid idea. 38:14 You need meritocracy. 38:16 You should give money to people that have earned it and deserve it. 38:19 So in hex, we don't pay miners inflation ever. 38:22 Fuck those guys. 38:23 They can earn a penny and that's what they get paid currently. 38:26 A penny of Ethereum. 38:28 I guess when the network's busy, it could be three cents or four cents. 38:31 Fuck overpaying these guys inflation that they just sell on the market. 38:35 They're not writing software. 38:36 They're not improving anything. 38:37 They're just destroying the planet with waste for a security theater. 38:43 So your position is they add no value. 38:47 Oh, no, sure. 38:47 They do. 38:48 They do add value. 38:50 We still use proof of work, but someone else is already paying for it to happen. 38:55 So you can derive more efficiency from the waste you already have by packing more energy into it. 39:00 You are just like free riding on blockchain and you don't need your own mining. 39:06 Exactly. 39:07 And it's more secure because if we had launched our own chain, we would have less 39:11 hash rate and would be easily attacked. 39:13 And if we had a proof of work change, we'd be even more easily attacked. 39:16 So this was absolutely by far the best way to launch new game theory. 39:20 Yes. 39:20 No, I think that's part of the draw of Ethereum or really of why a lot of crazy 39:29 ideas wanted to be tried. 39:32 And they thought they I mean, they just naturally evolved into all being tried in 39:36 one blockchain. 39:38 See, there's so much better. 39:40 I think there's I think there's a reason it's better that you might not know. 39:43 Yes. 39:44 OK, well, let's hear it. 39:46 If you if you want, I never have used a stable coin in my life, really. 39:50 Maybe on one small exchange for like maybe half a day or something. 39:54 I don't like that. 39:55 I believe crypto is made to get rid of counterparties. 39:58 And a stable coin is the opposite. 39:59 You're adding counterparties. 40:01 So I don't like it. 40:02 But you know what? 40:03 The rest of the world loves it. 40:05 Totally loves it. 40:06 They absolutely love stable coins. 40:08 And really, if you had Bitcoin at 20K and change them for stable coin, you did real 40:13 good because now you can buy back for sixty eight hundred or seven thousand. 40:18 So if you want to use a stable coin of Bitcoin, you know what you got to do? 40:22 You got to leave the chain and you got to go through a central counterparty that 40:25 could fuck you and not give you what you paid for to try and get into a stable coin. 40:29 You got to go through an exchange. 40:31 If there's an exchange, yes. 40:33 But in a theorem, you don't have to because it's all in the same chain. 40:36 They've got a stable coin on the chain. 40:39 Right. 40:39 If you want anonymity and Bitcoin, fuck yourself. 40:42 You're going to have to go off chain. 40:44 So you're going to have to go through an exchange to get to Monero or try and mix. 40:48 And that mixing shit doesn't work very well at all. 40:52 Or so. 40:53 OK, so here we have Bitcoin. 40:55 Certainly, I agree that it's better when it's all in the protocol. 41:00 So good. 41:01 You know, that's not actually a fundamental difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum 41:04 because it is. 41:07 You could we had counterparty and that could have had. 41:10 No, but there's a big difference between a first tier citizen of a network and a 41:14 second tier citizen. 41:14 It was originally only on. 41:18 It was only on Bitcoin, it was an Omni, so. 41:22 Yeah, so Tether switched from using Omni on Bitcoin. 41:25 To ERC 20, because it's better, they moved all their transactions over or 70 41:30 percent of their transactions from Omni over to Ethereum. 41:33 Well, they had support for both. 41:35 And then they still have support for both, but they moved everything over because 41:39 it's better on Ethereum. 41:40 And by the way, that's that coin does more volume than any other cryptocurrency 41:44 in the world. 41:45 So for them to for the most commonly used cryptocurrency in the world, which is 41:49 Tether, to switch its volume from Omni to ERC 20 is the strongest vote you could 41:55 possibly have for which network's better because the people are using that's 41:59 definitely not the case, I think. 42:01 Well, I mean, I understand what you're trying to say, but you know that it's not 42:05 simply I mean, this this is just a one dimensional thing about like which one 42:11 more people are using today or recently. 42:13 And, you know, as you know, the network can be networks can be designed in a way 42:18 that the fees are lower and the user experience is better. 42:21 But the overall long term effect is detrimental, which is exactly what Ethereum 42:28 is doing. It's not so much killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, but slowly 42:33 like you might want to check out what the theorem has been up to lately, man, because 42:37 it's not the same game anymore. 42:38 It's totally different now. 42:40 So they've got like thousand X on chain scaling through ZK roll ups and optimistic 42:45 roll ups that are like forked in now that they can start. 42:49 Well, there have been I think I agree with, you know, I always hated Ethereum and I 42:54 still still hate it. 42:55 But I want to retell this story of how Bitcoin was this amazing innovation. 43:00 And then you had stuff like Litecoin, which is like a copy and paste. 43:03 And then you had many ideas that were just the absolute worst idea ever. 43:07 And they were those who these are the ideas that are being tried in 2014 or 43:11 something. And and then you had Ethereum, which, you know, by all the signs was like 43:20 the biggest scam ever. 43:21 And indeed, from what I heard was just one or two chance coincidences away from 43:28 collapsing completely. 43:30 Sure. But I have to say that I think you're right to ask people to look at a second 43:37 time because just different here. 43:42 What I'm trying to say is that in the past, it was like every single red flag that you 43:47 could possibly raise was raised and it was like the worst project ever. 43:51 But since then, many of those red flags have gone away. 43:54 And so it still looks like a bad project. 43:56 But I do think that people. 43:58 Well, let me give you an example that it was like the absolute worst thing in the 44:03 universe. Now, I think it could just merely be bad or something. 44:07 But I think definitely people should look at it. 44:09 Well, let me let me let me try and defend them. 44:11 And so in in hex, the only thing it doesn't have one development is that they 44:19 actually did ship something, which is that for a while they ship nothing. 44:23 I mean, we do hear all this stuff about proof of stake is proof of stake has been 44:26 three months away for like the last six years. 44:29 Yeah, I know. That's how software is there. 44:32 But you know, that's how every piece of software is, particularly blockchain 44:36 software. Hex was late a year. 44:39 Lightning has been late three years. 44:41 Sidechain has been late five years. 44:43 Sharding has been late four years. 44:45 You know, like, you know, I agree that that is a property of software. 44:49 Yeah. Particularly blockchain software where you can't just ship it. 44:53 You have to get consensus as well. 44:54 It's harder. So in hex, we want anonymous transactions and we want privacy because 45:01 that fungibility is an important, an important, important, important part of 45:05 being a human. You can't speak the truth unless you can speak the truth privately. 45:09 If you have to tie your identity to everything, you can't speak the truth. 45:14 You can't even. It's the United Nations, right, that you just can't over surveil 45:19 people, fucks them up. 45:21 So you just the people know that that is bad and people want their privacy and 45:25 security. My favorite book. 45:26 So say again, you know, the choir said 1984 is like my favorite book. 45:30 There you go. Right. 45:32 Yeah, we're getting an open door, as George Orwell used to say. 45:36 Right. So if if you want anonymity in Bitcoin, you cannot get it on chain. 45:43 It's not available. You have to go somewhere else. 45:46 And the one thing that I regretted about building hex was that we didn't have 45:49 anonymity. Well, guess what? 45:52 Now we do. So there's a. 45:54 There's a product called Tornado Cash, which is a contract that does zk-SNARKs 46:01 on Ethereum and has an anonymity set and then, you know, groups, transactions by 46:06 their size and their sets appear to be like about a thousand members right now. 46:11 And, you know, it's open source and it's been audited. 46:15 And there's somebody that I know that's, you know, making a fork to allow hex 46:21 transactions to use that style of mixing so that anyone that wants to securely and 46:27 anonymously transmit hex to other users can do so. 46:32 I see. So it's like a it's like a Ethereum plug in or something. 46:36 Right. Well, it's not a contract. 46:38 So all these contracts can talk to each other on the same chain. 46:42 And then there's no middlemen and it's beautiful and it's distributed finance. 46:47 You want to get it? You want to use a stable coin? 46:48 Bam, it's right there. You want to get it? 46:50 It's right there. You want to you want to use this thing as collateral for this other thing? 46:55 Go ahead. You want to make a contract and encapsulates and wraps another contract and do 46:58 other types of logic? Go for it. 47:01 It's truly programmable money. 47:03 So when people bought Bitcoin, what they really thought they were buying was Monero 47:06 because they thought it was anonymous, but it's not. 47:08 And then when they heard about, you know, programmable money and all that shit when 47:12 they bought their Bitcoin, that's actually Ethereum. 47:14 Ethereum is actually programmable money. 47:16 Monero is actually private money. 47:18 And now with Tornado Cash, I believe Ethereum is also private money. 47:22 You would have to, in theory, wait till the anonymity sets were as large as Monero's, I 47:27 think, depending on how strong the zk-SNARK stuff is. 47:31 So it's like still awesome. 47:33 Like we got anonymity for free because we chose the right platform. 47:38 We're getting scaling increases for free because we chose the right platform. 47:42 We have. Yeah, I understand. 47:44 I was like, I didn't know what you meant there. 47:45 Yes, you know, again, you're really good with all these bullet points. 47:50 There's just so many sometimes. 47:52 There's a shitload of them. 47:54 You're saying that Ethereum is great because people will write weird little contracts 47:59 like ZK Tornado and ZK Rollups, which gives you benefits. 48:05 Yep. And they'll keep writing them and they'll keep getting in. 48:08 And that won't stop. It will just keep getting better. 48:11 Have you heard of Uniswap? 48:14 Oh, yes. No, I have not heard of it. 48:16 Oh, it's awesome. It's an automated market maker. 48:20 So it uses what's called X times Y equals K as a market maker. 48:25 And so you just put in two different currencies, right? 48:27 So you can put in like HEX and ETH and there is there is a Uniswap market for HEX. 48:34 We're on 10 exchanges now because we chose the right ecosystem. 48:37 People can turn us on an exchange with a click of a switch because it's near C20. 48:41 So you put in ETH and you put in HEX. 48:44 And then if people transform one thing into the other, it reduces one and makes the other higher. 48:51 And then it just automatically changes the price because it uses like their product as the price. 48:56 So it's just like you have an order, but you don't have an order book. 49:03 It's an exchange that just always works and always shows you what your ratio is. 49:08 And then there's no, there's no order matching. 49:12 Yeah, I know exactly how automated market maker works, but I don't know if anyone in your audience will. 49:21 Well, they have that and it works amazing and it's free and it's audited and they didn't even make any money on it. 49:26 They literally just built it out of a grant from the Ethereum Foundation. 49:29 He could have got so rich on that, but he was honest and did his work, you know, as a college dude, as a college person. 49:38 That was in school and just built this amazing thing that had he done an ICO for it, probably would have got 30, 60 million or something, but instead, go ahead. 49:51 That's a good point. 49:51 It is weird, the temptation to do the ICO looms tremendously, but yeah, you know, these. 50:00 Well, it's true that younger people do like Ethereum, that's to me, that's sort of one of the drawbacks that appeals to kind of naive and sort of maybe abstracts. 50:11 But like, it's doing everything that Bitcoin wishes it could do. 50:15 Is there an automated market making exchange that's trustless and peer to peer on Bitcoin? 50:20 No, but it's on Ethereum. 50:22 You know, it's funny because again, the counterparty did have the DEX, which was something like that, which is very funny. 50:29 I mean, a lot of what we've been discussing has been retreading this point about that there was. 50:37 There was a dream and it failed. 50:38 Counterparty and color coins on Bitcoin. 50:40 There was a dream and it was tried and it failed. 50:43 It fucking failed. 50:45 Bitcoin was supposed to be a currency. 50:46 It didn't work. 50:48 Bitcoin was supposed to be a currency. 50:49 It did not work. 50:50 Less people accept it now than 2017. 50:53 There's less on-chain volume, there's less new people getting on, there's less Google searches, there's less Twitter searches. 50:58 There's been no fucking upgrades to the feature set. 51:01 2017, when there was this big bubble, that's not really, I think that would be expected, even if it's. 51:08 But it's still lower than like fucking 2016, too. 51:12 It's shittier than before the bubble. 51:15 It's really shit. 51:17 Yeah, I'm not familiar with any of those numbers, but my understanding is that if you compare things like media activity, Google searches and things for Ethereum and Bitcoin. 51:27 Oh no, Bitcoin's crushing Ethereum, sure. 51:28 Yeah, and those things. 51:29 Yes. 51:31 I'm not saying Bitcoin, I'm not saying Ethereum got better fucking retail adoption than Bitcoin did, because Bitcoin, as bad as it is, is still doing better than Ethereum at retail adoption. 51:39 Sure. 51:40 Yeah, right. 51:41 That's what I'm wondering about. 51:42 Because I am solving all of these fucking things with Hex, so we have got, so people talk about Hex being a scam, and it blows my goddamn mind, because it's the opposite of a scam. 51:57 There's scammers that used to promote. 51:58 No, let's hear it. 51:59 This is the big, this is what I'm interested in personally, because this is where the drama is. 52:04 I'm just like, oh. 52:05 There's scammers that used to promote BitConnect. 52:07 Yeah. 52:07 Yeah. 52:08 Trayvon James and Craig Grant used to promote BitConnect, now they promote Hex. 52:13 Why? 52:14 Because they see this shit will pop off. 52:16 They see it's got virality to it. 52:17 They see that it's got stickiness to it. 52:19 It's addictive for them to use. 52:20 They use it a lot. 52:22 They get a lot of referrals, and they stake their coins, and they ladder their stakes. 52:26 You have some kind of referral thing, which is sort of shady, but maybe not totally shady. 52:30 How is referral shady? 52:32 Amazon has referrals. 52:34 Well, one thing is that it is a hazard to truth, because you don't know if people are saying what they believe, or saying something just to... 52:42 If you think anyone's being truthful when they show you your crypto bag, I have fucking news for you. 52:48 They don't even understand what they own to even tell you the truth if they wanted to. 52:51 I agree that merely owning any asset, including crypto, possibly especially crypto, but everyone has a temptation to talk up their own book. 53:02 I agree that it's not specific to having, but if you have a referral surplus, then I guess it would apply double, would it not? 53:13 If you don't think someone should be incentivized to share something good with you that you benefited from, you're a prick. 53:19 People should be rewarded for doing good, honest things, and sharing something that is good that benefits your life with you is something someone should be rewarded for. 53:29 Yeah, it's not inherently bad. 53:30 I just say it's a hazard. 53:31 Sure. Okay. 53:32 Yeah, sure. 53:33 Agree. 53:34 Anyway, you have... 53:35 Yeah, a lot of people use it for evil. 53:37 It's a force multiplier. 53:39 You can use it for evil or you can use it for good. 53:41 It's just like a gun. 53:42 The referral program is like a gun. 53:43 If you're a good guy, it's going to make you a better good guy. 53:45 If you're a bad guy, it's gonna make you a better bad guy. 53:48 So what matters is... 53:49 I get that, but anyway, please describe it anyway. 53:52 Sure. 53:53 Well, if someone clicks your link to go to the site and they transform Ethereum into Hex or free claim their Bitcoin, they get 10% more by using your link, and you get 20% on top of what they got, and the currency inflates 32% to pay you guys. 54:09 That's it. 54:10 Oh, that's very neat. 54:11 Yeah. 54:12 And there's no sign up. 54:13 There's no statefulness. 54:14 It just logs a cookie inside the browser. 54:17 So you literally are just going to hex.win forward slash question mark R equals your Ethereum address, and that's your referral link. 54:25 And now you can send that to anyone you want in the world, and you'll be incentivized for them turning Ethereum into Hex or free claiming their free Bitcoin to Hex. 54:38 Well, I don't completely understand how it all works, but don't people just refer themselves so that they make sure... 54:43 They can try to, but there's some logic in there that prevents it. 54:47 So they can do it. 54:48 It is possible to do it, but we make it a challenge to do it because we want honest referrers to be rewarded for the honest work that they've done. 54:57 So yes, you have. 54:58 The other thing I was interested in is you have some kind of like the kind of stick or the story, the culture, the all important culture that I was talking about. 55:07 You have some kind of premium on hodling. 55:11 Well, yeah. 55:11 I mean, that's the only thing that makes the price go up. 55:13 Yes. 55:14 We didn't actually get to talk about your earliest point about the CD, about how it works, blocking marks. 55:19 This is turning into a great commercial, but I mean, I'm loving it personally. 55:23 Look, it's like, this is actual innovative stuff. 55:27 This is not like, hey, we changed the proof of work bullshit. 55:30 We changed everything. 55:31 We changed the economics. 55:32 We changed the game theory. 55:34 We're punishing the whales. 55:35 We're doing social engineering. 55:37 Yeah, I think that's very funny. 55:38 You have a very like a custom bespoke hard fork, trimming some of the balances, sort of. 55:46 It's very funny. 55:47 I think it's neat. 55:49 It's definitely going to be, I hope, someone somewhere right. 55:53 It'll be an interesting story. 55:55 You want some other killer things that you haven't heard about yet? 55:57 Auto staking. 55:58 If you free claim, you're locked for 350 day minimum, 90%. 56:03 So you got to hold that bag and watch it. 56:06 To care about it. 56:07 See, the people cannot sell. 56:08 This is kind of like the vault in OneCoin. 56:13 I don't actually know about OneCoin or Bitconnect very much. 56:15 I should have researched them, truthfully, because they were quite successful. 56:19 Of course, all these things, you see these problems, they want, these dishonest projects 56:26 want a way to trap innocent people, prevent them from ever redeeming. 56:34 Purely redeem or whatever, wants everyone to never be able to redeem so that the people at the top can 56:39 redeem at the opportune moment, in the false loop, take all the money off the table. 56:45 Of course, it's like all very suspicious and weird. 56:49 Honest projects do that too. 56:51 That's what a vesting period is when you start a startup. 56:54 Yeah, you are right about that. 56:55 Yeah. 56:56 So we want people that skin in the game. 56:58 But it's a little bit more, usually when a startup, there's a little bit more logic to it. 57:04 People who have the most inside information usually are locked the longest. 57:08 With this, I don't know if that's the case, seems to reverse maybe. 57:11 But again, I don't really know anything about it. 57:13 Sure. 57:14 So the other thing is, how many people were served well by dumping their Bitcoin bags 57:19 any time between now and 10 years ago? 57:23 Almost everyone would have been done way better if they couldn't touch their back. 57:28 So if you have an honest project with a product market fit and adoption, 57:32 it seems like keeping your hands off it could be a really fabulous thing. 57:35 Yeah, you have a suicide pact. 57:36 You and everyone else are all in it together. 57:39 You're all in it for the long haul. 57:40 You're not going to sell. 57:42 Well, we're the first cryptocurrency in the world with a chart of future market supply, 57:46 not total supply, but total supply and market supply. 57:49 So you can see, you can go to hexstat.com, singular, hexstat.com. 57:54 You can see a chart of when everyone's stakes are ending. 57:57 And about 85% of the currency is staked. 58:00 Oh, that's pretty interesting. 58:02 I've got to hand it to you. 58:03 That's kind of neat, especially as someone who knows about different monetary aggregates, 58:08 as they're called, M1, M2, just like money is sometimes described as an adjective and not as a... 58:15 Well, money is primarily credit, but people don't realize it. 58:19 It's like nine-tenths credit and one-tenth actual money. 58:24 Well, money takes many, many forms. 58:26 Well, money takes many, many forms, which is interesting. 58:31 So you have struck on that note. 58:35 Well, I mean, we should have... 58:37 You understand why people be suspicious of it, though, for the reasons... 58:43 The reason everyone's suspicious is because of the marketing. 58:45 I'm good at marketing. 58:47 And so I looked at why people buy Bitcoin and why people buy Ethereum, 58:51 the real reason why, because they want to make money. 58:54 And so I speak to that real reason. 58:56 And I say, this cryptocurrency, Hex, is designed to go up 10,000x in two and a half years. 59:03 Might not do it. 59:04 Might go to zero. 59:05 But its design intention is to go up in price through having these unique features. 59:11 Time locking, world's first blockchain city, world's first chart of future market supply, 59:15 referral system, penalize the whales, freemium onboarding, 59:20 auto staking that locks them up for at least a year. 59:23 They can choose to stake longer, the longer you stake, 59:25 you can make up to three times the shares at a 3641 day stake, which is about 10 years. 59:32 So do I know what will happen? 59:34 I have no idea. 59:35 Price could go to zero. 59:37 But I also know what's possible. 59:39 And what's possible is that this does something better than Bitcoin or Ethereum did. 59:43 And when I quote 10,000x, people think that I'm like retarded, 59:46 like that number is not reasonable. 59:48 But they don't realize that Bitcoin's up 700,000x and was up 2,000,000x in 2017. 59:54 And more actually, but I'm just choosing a penny as a starting point. 59:58 So I'm not choosing an outrageous number. 1:00:00 I'm choosing a very reasonable number. 1:00:02 I'm saying it's a possibility and that I have no idea what it'll do. 1:00:05 But they see that language and their little pea brains are like, 1:00:07 scam, scam, scam, it's got to be a scam. 1:00:10 Well, dude, Bitcoin's already up 75 times higher than what I'm talking about. 1:00:14 So yeah, you are good at marketing. 1:00:17 That's psychology. 1:00:18 That's called an anchor. 1:00:21 Yeah, I don't know. 1:00:23 It's a pretty neat. 1:00:24 You know, it's funny is that obviously, it sounds like a crazy project. 1:00:28 And personally, I remain extremely... 1:00:30 Why don't you claim your free hacks, man? 1:00:32 You've had some Bitcoin, right? 1:00:33 It is funny. 1:00:35 You've engineered it to evade many criticisms in a clever way, 1:00:39 because she's giving away free money. 1:00:41 And you're right that it really isn't. 1:00:43 I'm thinking about like, you know, the certificate of deposit at a bank. 1:00:47 And I'm also thinking about the way that FDIC insurance works 1:00:51 at a commercial bank in the United States. 1:00:52 And you're like, it's kind of funny like that. 1:00:54 It's really the tier one capital requirements and all these things. 1:00:59 There's Basel treaties and whatnot. 1:01:02 And it's funny that it isn't quite... 1:01:03 I don't know what if it says more about Hex or about traditional banking, 1:01:06 but it's less different than you might think, which I find to be amusing. 1:01:12 Well, see, this is why I love talking to you. 1:01:16 When I talk to people that are smart, there's no disagreements. 1:01:19 Like every time I have a chat with someone, 1:01:21 everyone treats it like it's a debate, 1:01:23 because I spend so much time correcting people. 1:01:25 Okay, well, here's one. 1:01:27 Here's the big thing. 1:01:29 You're selling this. 1:01:30 You have this idea of making a lot of money. 1:01:33 That is a kind of wishful thinking dream that, again, major hazard to truth. 1:01:41 Wishful thinking is very effective at deceiving people. 1:01:46 It's also very effective at building amazing things. 1:01:49 You're selling a really big dream that some people will want to believe, 1:01:56 and then their brain will shut off. 1:02:00 Yeah, sure. 1:02:01 Yeah, but you know what? 1:02:02 They're going to do that same shit for something worse, mate. 1:02:04 So if you care about... 1:02:06 Let's talk about killing scams. 1:02:07 Let's talk about killing them. 1:02:09 You have three options to kill scams. 1:02:11 Regulatory. 1:02:12 They don't have enough money. 1:02:13 They don't have enough enforcement. 1:02:15 They only come after the fact, after all the money's already been stolen. 1:02:18 They barely ever get any of it back. 1:02:20 And even if you could solve all those problems, 1:02:22 you'd only solve them in countries with good governments. 1:02:24 And a lot of countries in the world have fucked up governments. 1:02:27 So even those countries wouldn't be able to benefit from your regulatory innovation. 1:02:33 You could beg the people to stop getting scammed and be smarter, 1:02:35 but you don't have a marketing budget to reach the people. 1:02:38 And when you try and tell them not to get scammed, 1:02:41 they don't believe you because the scammers have a better story than you 1:02:44 and a better marketing budget. 1:02:45 So if anyone did even hear you warning them, 1:02:48 they wouldn't take your advice. 1:02:49 Because I tried. 1:02:50 Other people tried. 1:02:51 They fell for all that shit anyway. 1:02:53 Right? 1:02:54 2017, I was screaming real loud, 1:02:56 and everyone got rich, and then everyone got poor. 1:02:59 Yes. 1:03:00 So it doesn't work. 1:03:02 So you know what could work? 1:03:02 The question is for the suppression strategies, 1:03:06 as you say, in this world. 1:03:08 The DeFi world. 1:03:10 The world on the internet, 1:03:13 where people could be in different countries and have no identity. 1:03:17 I agree that that's unlikely to work. 1:03:20 I don't even think, you know, 1:03:21 I mean, even in the United States, 1:03:23 a lot of these projects, 1:03:25 they do the ICO and they raise a ton of money, 1:03:26 and then they buy the lawyers or, 1:03:31 you know, I suspect the regulators as well. 1:03:34 I know what you're talking about. 1:03:36 It's called regulatory capture. 1:03:38 You can read about it on deepcapture.org. 1:03:41 So if you want to actually stop scams from scamming so much, 1:03:47 I'm the guy that actually came up with a solution. 1:03:49 I'm the only guy talking about it, 1:03:50 because I guess I invented it. 1:03:52 You starve them out like you starve a bacteria. 1:03:55 Starve them out. 1:03:56 Yeah, there's a bacteria. 1:03:58 That was originally the sidechain pitch as well. 1:04:01 Great. 1:04:01 There you go. 1:04:02 There'll be no story. 1:04:03 There'll be no good story that an altcoiner can tell, 1:04:07 because even hypothetically, 1:04:08 if they did invent something, 1:04:10 it would be copied to a sidechain of Bitcoin. 1:04:11 And then there you go. 1:04:13 You know, no basis. 1:04:14 Similar story. 1:04:15 I agree with that strategy, 1:04:16 but I don't know if, you know, 1:04:18 I've already taken away the instantiation of that strategy. 1:04:22 I don't know. 1:04:22 Maybe I've already in the real world, 1:04:24 seen it working, 1:04:26 taking people that used to promote scams, 1:04:28 and now they promote something good. 1:04:30 It's really that easy. 1:04:31 This is not a question. 1:04:32 This is fact. 1:04:33 Instead of whatever. 1:04:35 They're not promoting BitConnect 1:04:37 or some other bullshit Ponzi scam. 1:04:38 They're promoting Hex, 1:04:40 which means that the bullshit Ponzi scams 1:04:41 they could be promoting, 1:04:42 like CloudToken in Asia, 1:04:44 they're not fucking promoting them 1:04:45 because they're promoting Hex. 1:04:47 So Hex is out competing for resources and mindshare, 1:04:51 the food source that the fucking scammers are operating on. 1:04:54 I understand. 1:04:55 It's beautiful and it can scale. 1:04:56 It's very interesting. 1:04:57 You're saying it's more efficient for everyone 1:04:58 to pile on on shilling for this one thing 1:05:04 with referrals and with bonuses for hodling and things. 1:05:10 But, you know, it actually, unfortunately, 1:05:12 I mean, even though it is very clever, 1:05:14 it is circular reasoning. 1:05:15 Is it not? 1:05:16 It's just assuming that this project will work 1:05:20 and therefore it's better to show- 1:05:22 It's speculation. 1:05:23 Even if it does work, 1:05:24 it's still probably going to drop 85, 95% at some point 1:05:27 because that's just what crypto does. 1:05:30 But the question is, 1:05:31 will it come back again? 1:05:33 So the difference between Bitcoin and Dogecoin is not that much. 1:05:38 Bitcoin dropped 85%. 1:05:39 Dogecoin dropped 94%. 1:05:42 Wow. 1:05:43 Big difference. 1:05:45 Store value. 1:05:45 Tell me more about store value. 1:05:47 Shit drops 85% every three years. 1:05:50 Shit store value. 1:05:51 Garbage. 1:05:52 Not much better than anything else in crypto, really. 1:05:55 Do you really think that Bitcoin and Dogecoin are really not the difference? 1:05:58 All you gotta do is look at the chart. 1:06:00 You literally just have to look at the chart. 1:06:02 What's in people's minds 1:06:03 is much more important than any piece of software code. 1:06:08 But also, there's huge, massive network effects of Bitcoin. 1:06:13 Bro, if your shit drops 85% every three years, 1:06:16 you have to quit with the like, 1:06:18 we're better than everyone else from a price perspective thing. 1:06:21 Because you're not. 1:06:22 Oh, well, like BNB has outperformed Bitcoin by 450 fucking X. 1:06:27 Drops a large amount only after it has risen. 1:06:30 And even larger, larger amounts. 1:06:32 Yes. 1:06:36 If you went to sleep, 1:06:37 you could go to sleep in whatever, 2013 or something, 1:06:40 and people would say, 1:06:41 oh, Bitcoin crashed 90% to $2. 1:06:44 And then you can wake up two years later, 1:06:45 and people will say, 1:06:46 oh, Bitcoin crashed 50% to $700 or something. 1:06:51 And then you can go to sleep, 1:06:52 and then wake up and you can say, 1:06:53 oh, Bitcoin crashed again. 1:06:54 It crashed in, you know, in, um... 1:06:57 I know, I've seen the video. 1:06:58 This guy did a YouTube video of it. 1:06:59 Bitcoin crashed 40% to $6,000. 1:07:05 But I'm the one that's being the most honest about this. 1:07:08 I am the one that's being the most honest about this, 1:07:11 more honest than anyone else in the fucking space. 1:07:14 I am the one that tells you 1:07:15 that Hex and every other cryptocurrency that's not a stablecoin 1:07:18 is extremely likely to drop 85% to 95%. 1:07:22 Do you think Pomp is going on television saying that? 1:07:24 No, he's saying, 1:07:25 if you don't believe in Bitcoin, 1:07:26 you don't believe in cryptography. 1:07:28 That's what he's fucking saying. 1:07:31 So I'm the honest one that tells people 1:07:33 what is very likely to actually happen. 1:07:35 I'm the one that's out competing scams for resources 1:07:37 and saving people from losing all their money to a scam. 1:07:40 I'm the one that's building new and innovative game theory, 1:07:43 monetizing time instead of hash rate. 1:07:45 I'm the one that's improving the environment, 1:07:47 getting the miners to destroy it less by not overpaying them, 1:07:50 by just paying them fees instead of inflation. 1:07:53 I'm the one giving people ability to get, 1:07:55 you know, perhaps very wealthy if things work out, 1:07:59 giving them free coins. 1:08:01 I'm only giving free coins to Bitcoiners. 1:08:02 There's so many amazing things here. 1:08:04 And yet I get screamed at and yelled at constantly 1:08:08 for writing code that is openly viewable and audited and awesome. 1:08:13 And everyone that uses it likes it very much. 1:08:15 But the whole rest of the world has never used it. 1:08:17 They just scream at the top of their lungs, 1:08:19 scam, scammer, scam, scammer, scam. 1:08:21 And you're like, why? 1:08:22 Oh, I'll tell you why. 1:08:24 Lately, what people are talking about is 1:08:26 there's an origin address that gets half of the bonuses. 1:08:30 So right now, from what I've seen in the block explorer, 1:08:32 it looks like it's gotten 45%. 1:08:35 People are like, I hate it. 1:08:37 I hate it. 1:08:37 Like, okay, you hate that. 1:08:39 XLM went top 10 crypto with 80% in the foundation. 1:08:43 XRP went top two crypto with 60% 1:08:47 and basically a single party. 1:08:50 Let's look at what the other top 10 cryptos did. 1:08:52 And let me see their ownership structure. 1:08:56 And what you'll find is that a lot of most, I would say, 1:09:00 cryptocurrencies that have done very well and entered the top 10 1:09:02 do have some giant ass whales that hold some. 1:09:05 And so the game isn't actually destroying whales, 1:09:08 it's trying to become a whale. 1:09:09 But since no one else studies the top 10 1:09:11 and they don't even know about some of these projects, 1:09:14 they just scream scam. 1:09:15 And really, if you think about it, 1:09:17 how much extra price appreciation do you have to have 1:09:19 to make up for somebody getting 45%? 1:09:23 A 1.6X, a 1.8X or something? 1:09:27 That's not, doesn't seem like a big price to pay 1:09:29 for the thing existing in the first place. 1:09:31 Would you prefer it not exist at all? 1:09:33 Because that was the other option, right? 1:09:36 Yeah, well, you raised some interesting points. 1:09:37 One, I have a question. 1:09:39 So when you, the only people getting free coins 1:09:42 are Bitcoin UTXOs. 1:09:44 And referrers, but they got to kind of get referrals, right? 1:09:48 Oh yeah, but they only get the referral from the claimed Bitcoin. 1:09:53 Or transformed. 1:09:54 They also get, if you transform Ethereum into HEX. 1:09:58 Ah, I see, okay. 1:10:00 But there's no, you know, day one, 1:10:03 it's all credited to December 1st, 7 p.m. 1:10:08 Bitcoin UTXOs, right? 1:10:09 Yep. 1:10:10 And it's really the first block after that moment, 1:10:12 but it's close enough. 1:10:14 Yeah, well, I originally take as a, you know, 1:10:17 I do take the Dan Krawitz original view of hard forks, 1:10:21 which is that you really should just, 1:10:25 you should just not complain 1:10:29 about getting a free experiment. 1:10:32 So that's kind of interesting. 1:10:34 I have another point about, yes, 1:10:38 one thing that always made me curious 1:10:40 was there was Zcash and then there was the fork of Zcash 1:10:44 that had all of the, you know, 1:10:46 the founder inflation tax stuff removed. 1:10:49 Yep. 1:10:50 And I thought, you know, 1:10:51 I definitely, if you had asked me years ago to predict, 1:10:54 or as a student of economics to predict or whatever, 1:10:58 you would say, of course, 1:10:59 of course the one without the extra inflation taxes will do better. 1:11:05 It will just, at best, it will copy the first project. 1:11:09 Will copy any- 1:11:09 It never works. 1:11:10 It never works anywhere. 1:11:12 It doesn't even work in normal serials. 1:11:13 It doesn't work in deodorant. 1:11:14 Well, even though the inflation tax in Zcash is- 1:11:18 20%. It was 20%. 1:11:20 That's probably about 10. 1:11:22 People do not seem to care. 1:11:23 Yep. 1:11:24 They have to somehow face, 1:11:26 I have to somehow, I have to, you know, 1:11:29 you know what I mean? 1:11:30 This is like refutes- 1:11:32 Yep. 1:11:32 This refutes this belief that I had. 1:11:35 And so I'm forced to believe that people really just, 1:11:38 out of some kind of ethical, cultural reason, 1:11:41 some kind of curiosity, 1:11:43 it's just a shelling point. 1:11:45 They prefer to, they prefer to, 1:11:49 but what is the shelling point? 1:11:50 The code or the brand? 1:11:52 Like, it doesn't really make sense because- 1:11:53 The ticker symbol. 1:11:56 Sorry? 1:11:57 It's the ticker symbol and everything tied to it. 1:11:59 Yeah, the ticker symbol. 1:12:00 If you make a new fork of Bitcoin- 1:12:01 They're different, you know, 1:12:02 some exchanges have different ticker symbols. 1:12:04 Yeah, so I'm not really saying the letters. 1:12:07 I'm saying that 1:12:08 people buy this shit not to use it. 1:12:11 They buy it to get rich. 1:12:12 And since they're buying it to get rich, 1:12:14 it's a Keynesian beauty contest 1:12:16 and they only give a fuck about what other people are buying. 1:12:18 You would think that they would care even more. 1:12:20 You'd think that it'd be even easier to get rich 1:12:22 without the inflation tax. 1:12:24 You were just complaining earlier 1:12:25 about miners dumping the coins. 1:12:27 Yep, you know what? 1:12:28 I have an example for you 1:12:29 that I think could prove this for you. 1:12:31 I just think it blew my mind, 1:12:32 this fact that whatever, Z Classic or whatever it was, 1:12:36 would be just consistently underperforming to Zcash. 1:12:41 I just find that it was a big eye-opener for me. 1:12:44 I just- 1:12:44 So if you- 1:12:45 I had to learn from the market too. 1:12:48 I didn't think the most used cryptocurrency 1:12:49 in the world would be a stablecoin 1:12:50 and I had to learn from the market. 1:12:52 You know, I thought, 1:12:53 oh, you can't have 80% in a foundation. 1:12:55 There's no way, it's just unfair. 1:12:56 Nope, turns out it works really well. 1:12:58 What matters isn't the ownership structure, 1:13:01 it's that no one sells. 1:13:03 It doesn't matter if you're a broker, 1:13:04 it's that no one sells. 1:13:05 Doesn't matter who the fuck doesn't sell, right? 1:13:07 Hey, I've got a guy with 80%, he never sells, okay? 1:13:12 Now I've got two guys with 40%, they never sell. 1:13:14 Okay, now I've got 10 guys with 8%, they never sell. 1:13:17 It doesn't matter what the type of person is 1:13:20 as long as they never sell. 1:13:21 That's the important part of cryptocurrency going up 1:13:25 is that people just don't sell it. 1:13:27 And in fact, most people don't sell their Bitcoin 1:13:29 because what really would you sell it for? 1:13:32 No one accepts that shit. 1:13:33 You're gonna sell it back for cash 1:13:34 and pay some big capital gains? 1:13:36 You know, like it's not- 1:13:38 All the cutthroat, dogmatically rational people 1:13:42 would be in Z Classic, but then they would sell 1:13:45 because they're too rational. 1:13:48 The idealist believers are in Zcash 1:13:51 and they don't sell and that is why 1:13:53 price stays up in your view. 1:13:56 Although I have to tell you that I don't really think 1:13:57 selling makes the price go down either 1:13:58 because every time you sell, someone else is buying 1:14:01 so they actually don't want to make an event. 1:14:03 But I know what you're saying, you used an inflation tax 1:14:06 and people are readjusting their portfolio 1:14:09 to claim more of society's resources 1:14:13 and surrender some of the inflation tax. 1:14:15 I know what you mean when you say that. 1:14:18 I assure you that people selling 1:14:20 does make the price of things go down. 1:14:22 Every time someone sells, someone else is buying. 1:14:24 It's the exact same event. 1:14:26 No, it is not. 1:14:28 It is not at all. 1:14:29 Because you're missing a very important piece of data 1:14:32 which is the price at which the event is occurring. 1:14:35 And so yes, one seller always has a buyer 1:14:39 but the fucking price changes. 1:14:41 And that's what slippage is literally in an order book. 1:14:43 Yeah, you are right. 1:14:44 It's a different side of the order book. 1:14:45 I agree. 1:14:46 But it's not merely, it's current owners 1:14:50 and prospective owners agreeing at lower prices. 1:14:53 Yes. 1:14:54 At that point it becomes a tautology 1:14:55 of course that would lower the price. 1:14:57 Right, okay. 1:14:58 That's the reason the price has moved so much. 1:15:00 Even though there's always a buyer for a seller. 1:15:02 So my point is, I saw a lot of things that were wrong with crypto and I fixed them and I fixed them and I fixed them and I fixed them. 1:15:11 And we've got amazing product market fit now. We've got amazing adoption now. We're on 10 exchanges in like 11 days. 1:15:20 We've got like three stats websites that there's every possible statistic you could think about. 1:15:25 How long people are staking, what the average stake is, what the median stake is, what the late penalties are. 1:15:29 Oh, there's more things in this. If you don't... 1:15:33 Lighting a mousetrap. 1:15:36 Yes, we built a better mousetrap. If you don't end your stake when you said you would, you start getting destroyed by fees. 1:15:44 And half those fees go to the other stakers and half those fees go to this origin address. 1:15:49 So the origin address basically just gets a copy of whatever bonuses you got. 1:15:52 So if you've got a speed bonus... 1:15:53 You have your money in the vault but you don't take it out? 1:15:56 Yeah, then you start getting annihilated by fees. 1:15:59 That's kind of funny. And it's your advantage to have other people forget or have their computer catch on fire than they're supposed to. 1:16:08 Or to have Ethereum miners or whatever censor they are. 1:16:13 All that shit. True. 1:16:15 Okay, that sounds cool. 1:16:16 It's pretty crazy. 1:16:17 It does sound crazy, yes. 1:16:19 How do we cancel the crazy out a little bit? 1:16:21 So first, the reason that exists is someone has to update the system state. 1:16:25 And you are the one that created shares which diluted everyone else and made everyone else get paid less. 1:16:30 And so you need to pull your shares out because there's no automatic in blockchain. 1:16:34 Someone has to run the software. 1:16:35 So in Hex, you run the software. 1:16:37 Only you commit your own coins. 1:16:39 Only you commit your own rewards. 1:16:40 Only you invented your private keys. 1:16:42 No one else can do it for you. 1:16:44 You're doing all the work. 1:16:45 Just like a Bitcoin miner. 1:16:46 A Bitcoin miner invents his own rewards. 1:16:48 He doesn't ask anyone for them. 1:16:49 No one hands them to him. 1:16:50 He makes his own rewards for himself. 1:16:52 And Hex works the same way. 1:16:53 You make your own rewards for yourself. 1:16:57 So when you make a stake, it creates shares. 1:17:03 We have a share price that only goes up forever. 1:17:06 It's how we do compounding. 1:17:07 Otherwise, short stakes would beat long stakes by continually recompounding. 1:17:11 And so we have longer stakes outperforming shorter stakes by having a share price that only goes up. 1:17:16 So that if you end your stake, the system looks to see if you're the highest profit that's ever been made. 1:17:21 And if it is, you get set as the new price. 1:17:24 So then if you try and get back in, you do absolutely no better than you left. 1:17:27 You get the same shares that you left with. 1:17:29 But everyone else that had a lower ratio profit than you did, they end up getting worse. 1:17:33 If they have to get back in, they get less shares. 1:17:35 It's very confusing for me. 1:17:38 When you say share price, you mean the price of Hex for ETH? 1:17:41 No. 1:17:42 The amount of shares that you get. 1:17:43 When you stake, you get... 1:17:45 Right. 1:17:46 So when you stake, the amount of shares that you get for your stake is based on the share price. 1:17:51 I see. 1:17:52 Okay. 1:17:53 And it's neat to have a chart of something that only goes up, which is mathematically equivalent to compounding. 1:17:59 So we could either inflate... 1:18:01 It's computationally inefficient to inflate the shares for all the old guys that were in early. 1:18:04 It's more efficient to just reduce the shares for the new guys by having a share price. 1:18:08 And we have a cool price chart that only goes up. 1:18:10 It's awesome. 1:18:12 I kind of invented it. 1:18:13 I'm pretty excited about it. 1:18:15 I've never seen any other system that uses maximum ROI of any participant to set the new share price. 1:18:21 I invented that, and it's amazing, I think. 1:18:25 That sounds at least intriguing. 1:18:27 Yeah. 1:18:28 So there's a shitload of innovation here. 1:18:30 A shitload. 1:18:32 And people are just too dumb to notice. 1:18:35 I don't get it. 1:18:36 They just keep yelling scam and don't actually look at what we're doing. 1:18:40 So it's just like... 1:18:41 It's very advisable for people to be very cautious about anything they invest in. 1:18:46 Sure. 1:18:47 Certainly if you're being given something for free, again, it's a very clever way of stepping around. 1:18:52 Yeah, we do a lot of clever stuff here, man. 1:18:54 So I wanted to tell you there's two more parts of that. 1:18:56 You can emergency end your stake, and you'll get annihilated by fees, 1:19:00 dependent on how much of your stake you said you were going to do and you didn't do it. 1:19:04 So if you serve half your stake, you'll get out with your principal. 1:19:08 Pretty sure. 1:19:10 If you don't serve half your stake, you're going to get your principal eaten into. 1:19:14 So someone for fun made a 5,555-day stake, which is the max, and then ended it the next day. 1:19:19 I think he got beat for like 98% or 86% or something. 1:19:24 That's how much he got beat for. 1:19:26 Got it. 1:19:27 And guess who that penalty goes to? 1:19:30 It goes to half the stakers and half the origin. 1:19:34 Half the origin? 1:19:35 Sure. 1:19:36 The origin. 1:19:37 Yeah, the origin's happy. 1:19:38 The king of the castle. 1:19:39 The origin's a happy camper. 1:19:40 Okay, great. 1:19:41 And you know what? 1:19:43 The guy that invented XRP's a happy camper, and Vitalik's a happy camper, and Charlie Lee's a happy camper, 1:19:48 and fucking Fluffy Pony. 1:19:50 You know, it turns out people that invent things that get mass adoption, they do well, 1:19:54 and that makes the world a better place. 1:19:56 Yeah, well, there's a kind of privatization. 1:19:58 There's a commons problem for these open-source software projects that partially is addressed 1:20:05 by making someone the owner. 1:20:11 Not really what I like, but it does happen. 1:20:14 Yes, it's true. 1:20:15 When there's one big owner, they are the—it privatizes the project. 1:20:19 It usually works. 1:20:20 It usually works. 1:20:21 Most public companies were private companies first, and they were successful as private companies. 1:20:27 Oh, that's not what I mean about being publicly or privately traded. 1:20:31 I'm just saying like— 1:20:32 I'm talking about centralization of power structure. 1:20:35 If you advocate for Bitcoin, for example, as Roger Ver did. 1:20:39 Roger Ver is another example. 1:20:40 In the early days, you advertised for Bitcoin. 1:20:43 Those benefits accrue to all the Bitcoin holders, not just you. 1:20:48 So it benefits—it's a little bit more logical if you are a very large holder. 1:20:53 Depending on whether they had a three-year time horizon or not. 1:20:56 If you're a Bitcoin marketer guy and you're not honest like I am and tell people that it crashes 85% rather often, 1:21:01 and you get someone to buy into Bitcoin that doesn't have a three-year investment horizon, 1:21:05 you could be destroying that guy's life because he could be buying the fucking time. 1:21:08 It's true. 1:21:09 It's funny that you've mentioned that because I do always tell people that they should be thinking about it for three years. 1:21:14 Yep. 1:21:15 Which is interesting that you use the same number as I do. 1:21:19 It's true. 1:21:20 It's on the chart. 1:21:21 It's on the fucking chart. 1:21:23 It really doesn't go down 85% if you zoom out, but that's only if you zoom in. 1:21:29 Yep. 1:21:30 So you have to—I speak truth about this stuff. 1:21:34 And I'm very specific about what I say, and I do the best I can to educate people. 1:21:39 And it just blows my mind that people dare come to me and call me a scammer when I've had no way to pay me money. 1:21:46 No donation address, no shopping cart, no fucking paid groups, nothing. 1:21:52 I give away free books. 1:21:53 I wrote two self-help books. 1:21:54 I give away free videos with ads turned off. 1:21:58 I give away free trading chatroom, price calls, now free tokens. 1:22:03 And I've been doing this for years. 1:22:05 And how dare people come and call me a scammer? 1:22:08 It just blows my mind. 1:22:09 It's like, goddamn, what is fucking wrong with you fucking people? 1:22:13 Well, you know, you can see how it does look very suspicious. 1:22:16 Sure, it looks that way. 1:22:18 But you have to fucking—if you don't like it when fiat people call Bitcoin a scam, then you got to stop calling everything else a scam. 1:22:25 Right? 1:22:26 Fiat people call Bitcoin a scam because they don't understand it. 1:22:30 Bitcoin people and other crypto people call Hex a scam because they don't understand it. 1:22:34 It's hypocrisy. 1:22:35 Be the change you want to see in the world. 1:22:37 If you're tired of being called a scam— 1:22:38 Bitcoin and Hex are both creative in a sense that they sort of are new and unlike older things. 1:22:48 But, you know, the phrase creative accounting is kind of negative. 1:22:52 It's kind of a slur. 1:22:53 It's saying, like, why isn't it clear? 1:22:56 Why isn't it—you know, if you switch from the way things were done in the past to something new, you could be doing that for good purposes or deceptive. 1:23:06 Well, I mean, look, you could ask yourself whether Bitcoin has been a positive change in the world if you want to take that tact. 1:23:12 It really depends on whether your kid died from drugs in the dark net or not or whether, you know, you were able to send your mom some money that needed it in Venezuela. 1:23:21 Or there's a lot of—like any technology, there's pluses and minuses. 1:23:26 And I think as long as human beings are in general better than they are worse, the technological advances will be better than they are worse. 1:23:34 So technology is a force multiplier. 1:23:36 And if people generally do good things, then we will generally have a better world with more technology. 1:23:42 If people turn evil, then we should lose the technology. 1:23:45 You might think people are actually—people are pretty good generally. 1:23:52 Yep. 1:23:53 The world wouldn't work. 1:23:54 The world would be more fucked up. 1:23:56 It wouldn't. 1:23:57 You're right. 1:23:58 That's a good point, which is that we wouldn't—if really only the law enforcement was keeping everyone from robbing each other, it actually— 1:24:06 It doesn't scale. 1:24:07 Yeah, unable to. 1:24:08 So, yeah. 1:24:09 It's asymmetrical. 1:24:10 It takes like four investigators to solve one small crime. 1:24:13 But really what holds people in, again, is what's in people's minds, the culture, but also shame. 1:24:16 You people would be ashamed of facing their friends and family if they were found to have taken advantage of people in a desperate time. 1:24:24 Animals have ethics. 1:24:25 Animals have ethics. 1:24:27 Human beings also have ethics. 1:24:29 There are effective strategies for operating in groups. 1:24:32 As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if amoebas had ethics to some degree. 1:24:36 They understand kin and not kin. 1:24:38 They understand don't kill people on my team. 1:24:41 They have norms. 1:24:42 They certainly have norms. 1:24:44 Right. 1:24:45 So there's things that work better and there's things that work worse, and we just happen to do the same things that dogs do. 1:24:50 They don't eat their brothers usually. 1:24:53 They don't eat their parents usually. 1:24:55 They get along as a team. 1:24:56 They cooperate. 1:24:57 We do even better than that. 1:24:58 We actively talk about right and wrong. 1:25:02 Sure. 1:25:03 We have ideas that exist independently of even evolution and things. 1:25:12 I'm not sure it's made us much more honest than dogs, though. 1:25:15 I like dogs. 1:25:17 Our powers, our mental powers are greater, so we can both deceive and tell the truth easier. 1:25:23 But deception is also a way to tell the truth. 1:25:26 Imagine you work as a therapist or something. 1:25:29 If you can't lie, then people can't tell you the truth. 1:25:32 You can't do anything about the problems. 1:25:34 What if you're a spy? 1:25:35 There's exceptions to most rules. 1:25:39 I was going to tell you the last thing about that thing that if you don't end your stake, then you could just lose all your money. 1:25:48 Anyone else in the world could pull your expired shares out for you. 1:25:51 It's called the good accounting function. 1:25:53 You can run the good accounting function. 1:25:55 You'd want to let people leave it in the vault as long as possible. 1:26:00 But if you're a nice guy and you don't want to see people burn, maybe you run that function for them. 1:26:04 I don't know what's going to happen. 1:26:06 Yes. 1:26:07 Well, okay. 1:26:09 If the world wants to be nice to other people, it can do it. 1:26:12 It's a very wacky idea. 1:26:15 How much is the origin address spent? 1:26:17 Does it spend a lot of hex or any of it? 1:26:19 It just locks it all up. 1:26:21 The origin address has been sending to – I'll be specific with my language. 1:26:26 The origin address appears to have sent to like 10 or 20 addresses, and those addresses just lock all up their coins. 1:26:33 I see. 1:26:35 So the origin has spent something. 1:26:37 Mostly 10 years. 1:26:38 The grandchild or the child of the origin address has not spent any. 1:26:44 No one has like – 1:26:45 Yes, so if you do the lineage, right, so the energy that has been input to the origin address and then has ended up in other addresses, 1:26:52 it's locked almost every single hex it's ever gotten and mostly for 10 years. 1:26:59 Very interesting. 1:27:00 Yes. 1:27:02 Now I think – because like why – if in theory – so if we took a different system, not hex, a different coin, 1:27:12 and the founder of that coin had the new coin that he created and Ethereum, which one do you think he would want to sell? 1:27:21 Now I can say in this system, in hex, the origin address appears to have divested of nearly all of its coins, 1:27:31 and other addresses receive them, and then those other addresses stake nearly all their coins for mostly 10 years, 1:27:39 and then what is the flush address done, which is the Ethereum? 1:27:44 Ethereum has just sat there and done nothing. 1:27:46 It's got about 42,000 Ethereum, and it moved 195 of them to Binance, and that's it. 1:27:53 So that's the analysis on what those two addresses have done. 1:28:03 So in theory, would you rather – if you invented a currency, not hex, if you invented some other currency, 1:28:09 and you had a bag of ETH and you had a bag of your currency, which one would you be more happy to sell? 1:28:17 The thing you invented and built or the thing that – 1:28:21 It's very confusing. 1:28:22 Okay. 1:28:23 Because – 1:28:24 Well, aren't you going to – don't you have a coin coming out or something? 1:28:26 You want to know who else is accepting it, which is – in my view, I'm this network effects guy. 1:28:30 I think that the network effects are very, very strong and very important. 1:28:36 So I think that it's not a – it's a totally different factor. 1:28:39 But what I – there are at least two things that attracted me to having this conversation with you, 1:28:45 which is that the – if I asked you some question like do you aspire to have hex spent in stores or something, 1:28:57 and be used as money in like a country, and I'm going to say it doesn't matter what you answer that question as 1:29:04 because for BTC, it's sort of like almost the same answer, which is that it's not really supposed to be about that. 1:29:10 It's just supposed to be about sound money and holding – 1:29:14 It was supposed to be about that, but they just gave up on it because it didn't work, which is okay because store value is bigger money. 1:29:21 So here's the problem with being a processing network. 1:29:25 Processing networks has existed as a technology for decades, and it's been demarginalized and made less profitable because of it. 1:29:32 So if you look at how much money Visa and MasterCard make, 1:29:37 and then you tried to make something that offered the same features as them but it ran on Bitcoin, 1:29:41 you wouldn't be able to because they're actually very efficient. 1:29:44 If you say, you know what, we want to have a phone call center that answers these people's problems when they call 24 hours a day 1:29:52 and has a dispute resolution system where we look and we see and adjudicate who's going to get to keep money and who's not, 1:29:59 and we need to have ATMs all over the world that accept these cards, 1:30:03 and you start adding all that shit up, Bitcoin would never, ever be able to do it in like 20 years. 1:30:08 I totally agree with that, but you understand that Bitcoin's basis for competing with them, 1:30:13 even theoretically if it were as a super large block credit card competitor payment thing, 1:30:18 it would be on a different basis. 1:30:20 One would be that it would have no brick and mortar, it would have no lawyers, it would have no dispute resolution. 1:30:25 Right, but that's all worse. 1:30:27 All that shit sucks, that's worse, like it's less features. 1:30:30 Yeah, so my point is that people think that being a payment network is very valuable, and they're wrong and they're stupid. 1:30:38 Being a payment network isn't worth a jack shit. 1:30:40 What is worth a lot is being something that people buy and never sell, 1:30:44 and then you just have constant up price pressure with no fucking down price pressure. 1:30:49 Yeah, but they're not buying it in order to spend it in a store or anything. 1:30:53 People don't realize spending it means you're pushing the price down. 1:30:56 Like when Vitalik donated a few million dollars to the Sense Foundation, 1:30:59 he pushed the price of Ethereum down because they sold that shit. 1:31:02 When you spend your crypto, you fuck the price. 1:31:05 So when you say, hey man, I'm going to support this network, I'm going to buy a Bitcoin, 1:31:09 and I'm going to send it over there, and then he's going to sell the Bitcoin. 1:31:12 Well, guess what, man? The price went up a little, and then it went down a little, 1:31:15 and it got left about where it started. 1:31:18 Because if this fantasy of people using the cryptocurrency more made it more valuable, 1:31:24 then Ethereum would have gone up in value when they shifted that shitload of transactions 1:31:28 off of Omni onto ERC-20 on Ethereum. 1:31:31 Fucking price didn't go up, the transaction fees went up, the network activity went up, 1:31:36 but the fucking price didn't go up. Why? 1:31:38 Because you only have to pay a penny to get your transaction done. 1:31:41 So how is adding a bunch of extra penny payments move a fucking $15 billion currency up? 1:31:47 It doesn't. 1:31:48 So this theory that the blockchain that gets used more will be more valuable is fucking wrong. 1:31:54 It's not true. 1:31:55 Omni got used a lot. 1:31:57 They do less than $300 a day of fucking volume. 1:31:59 Omni failed entirely, but was actually successful technology for Tether. 1:32:04 So the concept that network effect will make your cryptocurrency more valuable 1:32:09 is only true if the network effect is holding and not actually using. 1:32:14 Because I can show you actually used coins that ain't worth shit. 1:32:17 And I can show you coins with no use that are worth a lot. 1:32:20 Earlier you were saying that you wanted to use Ethereum because it was better in your opinion. 1:32:25 It's better. The valuation accrues at the endpoints. 1:32:30 Amazon is one of the richest companies. 1:32:33 Jeff Bezos is the richest motherfucker in the United States because he owns Amazon. 1:32:36 Amazon is the richest motherfucker in the United States because they're closest to the money. 1:32:39 They're the endpoint. 1:32:40 They're not a dumb pipe. 1:32:42 They're not a substrate. 1:32:43 They're not an ISP. 1:32:44 They're the endpoint that's the closest to the money. 1:32:46 HEX is closest to the money. 1:32:48 Ethereum is a dumb substrate that we operate on. 1:32:51 So value is likely to accrue at the endpoints that are closest to the customer. 1:32:55 And the underlying technology is fucking irrelevant to them. 1:32:58 So when people use HEX and go to go.hex.win or etherscan.io to use it, 1:33:05 you don't have to go to go.hex.win. 1:33:06 There's nothing essential going on. 1:33:08 You can, you know, access the blockchain in many different ways. 1:33:12 You don't really know that you're using Ethereum at all except for you have to pay a penny 1:33:18 or sometimes three pennies to do a transaction. 1:33:21 And if that goes away, if that little component goes away using what's called metatransactions 1:33:28 or there's this EIP that they've got that would allow you to pay fees direct to miners with ERC20s, 1:33:33 if either of those things is implemented or becomes more popular, 1:33:37 like the metatransaction thing is already done. 1:33:40 It could just be done where you can pay your fees with HEX and never touch ETH at all. 1:33:45 Then you wouldn't know there was an ETH network. 1:33:47 It wouldn't exist to you. 1:33:48 Yeah, but I think your claim that the network effect is only important when it's about... 1:33:53 Only important for price. 1:33:54 For development, it's important. 1:33:56 I mean, there's a lot of other shit that's not price. 1:33:58 You're saying all these things about there's the Uniswap and there's whatever, Tornado. 1:34:02 Yeah, that's all because the network effect. 1:34:04 That is all because of the network effect, for sure. 1:34:07 So for things improving, network effect is very important for price appreciation. 1:34:12 And obviously, the US dollar. 1:34:13 I mean, if I spend the US dollar, I can't spend euros in the United States. 1:34:17 You can. 1:34:18 As soon as I go to Europe. 1:34:19 You can. 1:34:20 They just don't usually let you. 1:34:21 You can. 1:34:22 You can spend euros in the United States. 1:34:23 You can go to a cash exchange house. 1:34:25 You really could try. 1:34:26 Well, no. 1:34:27 You could go to a cash exchange house and they will accept your euros, which is spending them, 1:34:31 and give you another currency. 1:34:33 The cash exchange place is a special case. 1:34:37 They specialize in subverting the rule that applies everywhere else. 1:34:42 Yes, but it is legal for you to spend whatever the fuck you want. 1:34:45 There is no law in the United States. 1:34:47 I would dispute the fact that I'm even spending euros at a cash exchange store. 1:34:51 I don't like going there. 1:34:52 You're just buying dollars, but whatever. 1:34:54 It's fine. 1:34:55 In the United States, you can pay whatever you want. 1:34:58 You're saying that network effect only matters if it's for... 1:35:04 No, no. 1:35:05 I'm not saying network effect doesn't exist. 1:35:06 I'm not saying Metcalfe's Law isn't important. 1:35:08 I'm just pointing out. 1:35:10 I agree with everything that you're saying about how important network effect is and 1:35:14 how awesome it is and all that shit. 1:35:16 I'm just pointing out that in crypto, the network effect of adoption is dog shit for 1:35:22 the price comparing to the network effect of holding. 1:35:26 Because holding creates a buy and no sell. 1:35:29 And use creates a buy and a sell. 1:35:32 And having a sell sucks. 1:35:34 That's all I'm pointing out. 1:35:36 I see what you're saying. 1:35:38 I think I would really frame it that the people who are onboarded... 1:35:41 No, I made a similar point when I was trying to talk to Vin Armani about when people are... 1:35:48 Someone who buys and holds, they pay more of a cost. 1:35:52 They pay this whole thing and they're holding on to it. 1:35:55 If they buy Bitcoin, they spend a whole... 1:35:58 Whatever it was they spent, $10,000 or whatever. 1:36:01 And so that's a much more reliable signal. 1:36:04 And someone who merely chooses to accept it in their store, they may not even receive 1:36:09 any Bitcoin transactions. 1:36:10 They may do nothing. 1:36:11 It may have no effect. 1:36:13 But similarly, when someone's onboarded to a new crypto, even if it's BTC, a lot of what 1:36:24 they learn also applies to the other cryptos, like download a phone wallet, guard your private 1:36:30 key or whatever. 1:36:31 So they're onboarded to all the competitors at the same time, which is the point I was 1:36:36 trying to make about Bitcoin Cash versus BTC retail acceptance. 1:36:40 Right. 1:36:41 I think that... 1:36:42 I agree. 1:36:43 Sort of, I think. 1:36:44 I think we agree on... 1:36:45 I don't know of anything I disagree with. 1:36:48 We do agree a lot. 1:36:49 It's because we're right. 1:36:52 We're thoughtful. 1:36:53 We fucking think. 1:36:54 Well, it is certainly the case that all the crypto projects compete with each other and 1:37:01 that they... 1:37:03 It's a little bit misleading, though, what you're saying there's a little misleading 1:37:06 because... 1:37:08 All right. 1:37:09 Let's hear it. 1:37:10 That competition is what caused all the prices to go up. 1:37:13 So the fact that Ethereum brought all this new money in from a new branch of human psychology 1:37:18 that wasn't already cashed out. 1:37:21 So the libertarian gold bugs, they already blew their loads and bought all the Bitcoin 1:37:25 they could buy and they didn't have much left untapped. 1:37:28 And then the venture capital, Kumbaya VC guys, they weren't all in yet. 1:37:34 And so they all end into the world computer and then they got wrecked. 1:37:38 And now we're looking for our next pool. 1:37:40 And the next pool in crypto that's being wrecked is the people that fall for Ponzi schemes. 1:37:45 And then if you want to keep seeing the price go up, you're going to have to find a new 1:37:48 pool of untapped capital that you haven't emptied yet to make the price punch up again 1:37:53 because everyone else is already all in and working a day job to try and save up enough 1:37:57 to buy a bag again. 1:37:58 This is how crypto works. 1:38:00 So I bought 30, bought the top, dropped a penny on Gox. 1:38:04 They rolled the transactions back, but it sure did trade for a penny. 1:38:07 And then, you know, went up to 1300, down to 266, up to 20,000, down to 3000. 1:38:14 And at some point, we're likely going to go 60,000. 1:38:18 And then everyone's going to get to do their 85% drop again. 1:38:22 So we need more pools of new money that hasn't been wrecked yet. 1:38:26 If you want to keep seeing price appreciation. 1:38:30 Because the only thing, once you've already bought, you're useless. 1:38:32 You can't move the price up anymore. 1:38:34 You're fucked. 1:38:35 You can't press the green button anymore. 1:38:36 You're tapped out. 1:38:37 So people have already bought. 1:38:38 They're actually bad for the price because they can only push it down with selling. 1:38:42 They can't push it up anymore. 1:38:44 If they do push it up with leverage, it's very sensitive to the margin call. 1:38:47 And then it overshoots the price down again. 1:38:49 Like you saw at the 6K horizontal that we held about a year and a half ago. 1:38:53 And when it punched through, we dropped 55%. 1:38:56 It was like 67.50. 1:38:57 We dropped a 3K on it, or 31.50. 1:39:02 Yeah, so you have a lot of intriguing views. 1:39:05 I think one weird thing that I don't think you've addressed yet is that for people to invest in HEX, 1:39:12 you've designed HEX so that it doesn't contribute to Ethereum mining, as you made clear. 1:39:18 It pays the fees that they desire, and they can set their rates at whatever they choose. 1:39:22 They just choose to work for nearly nothing, which makes a better, more efficient network if you want to do computation. 1:39:28 If you want to actually have computation going on on your Turing-complete system, 1:39:33 it's pretty nice to have it not cost an arm and a leg. 1:39:36 Oh, well, yeah. 1:39:37 Well, obviously, that's a neat trick if you can get away with it, right? 1:39:41 Because you want it all to be cheap, but you also want everything to work. 1:39:46 Yes, at some point, if Ethereum was not getting enough traction through other projects that were paying mining rewards, 1:39:53 through block inflation like Ethereum itself is, 1:39:56 then someone else would have to pay the miners a real living wage. 1:39:59 And then we would need to have those other EIPs to rolled in to pay in the years or 20s, which is fine for me. 1:40:05 I only care about having a network which provides me censorship resistance and rollback protection. 1:40:10 And as long as I have that, I want it for as cheap as I can get it. And I believe most in security. 1:40:15 But when people invest, and they're going to invest for a long time, they're going to lock up this money for 5,555 days. 1:40:22 Sure. 1:40:23 Or whatever. 1:40:24 Yep. 1:40:25 You know, they are not just buying into HEX, they're buying into the whole Ethereum scheme, which as you... 1:40:34 So in 10 years, that guy's going to need to perform one transaction, and absolutely nothing has to happen between now and then. 1:40:40 Yeah, but that's not really what I meant. What I meant is that, as you know, it's very much a wet concrete situation in Ethereum. 1:40:51 Here's how good Ethereum is. 1:40:52 Five of the top 11 cryptocurrencies launched on or primarily use Ethereum. 1:40:57 BNB, TRX, USDT, Ethereum itself, and EOS. 1:41:04 Five of the top 11 valued cryptocurrencies in the world launched on or primarily use Ethereum. 1:41:11 I believe it is a better network than Bitcoin. 1:41:14 There will be fundamental changes to Ethereum that disrupt all those projects. 1:41:21 Sure, and then you'll have two coins. 1:41:23 Sure, let's say it goes wrong. Okay, now you've got two coins, and then you add them up and the market cap's usually higher. 1:41:28 So everyone wins, usually. 1:41:31 I didn't understand. 1:41:33 If you have a fork, if something fucks up, let's say something fucks up in Ethereum. 1:41:38 Yeah, I am. 1:41:39 They fuck up their forks. 1:41:40 These are all just hard forks. 1:41:42 Okay, so now you've got two coins. 1:41:43 You've got Ethereum Classic and you've got Ethereum Normal. 1:41:45 You've got coins on both. 1:41:46 Yeah, well, I think I actually, I kind of, as I said, I agree with Dan Kravitz about that. 1:41:52 But actually, I think that the hard fork doesn't do enough because I'm such this big network effect guy. 1:41:58 I don't think it's a fair fight. 1:42:00 And unfortunately, the status quo. 1:42:03 I think it's a parade of imagined horrors. 1:42:05 It's not going to happen. 1:42:08 So the new competitor. 1:42:10 So this is a problem because a truly good idea, subversive good idea, may not be able to win with only the hard fork as its weapon. 1:42:22 So I think the hard fork doesn't do enough. 1:42:24 Let's say Ethereum fails entirely. 1:42:26 Okay, how many other blockchains support solidity? 1:42:29 Shit loads. 1:42:30 Okay, we take system state, we airdrop it to the new blockchain. 1:42:33 Okay, done. 1:42:35 Yeah, it's funny that this type of thing is possible and it already has been done many times. 1:42:41 Yep. 1:42:43 I'm riding on the backs of giants here. 1:42:45 I mean, Bitcoin itself is built on. 1:42:48 It's what I was also thinking is that you are using a lot of things that were invented for like different, you know, 1:42:56 just came up in weird other scenarios about how to restart the state. 1:43:03 Stuff that like Monero does and stuff that happened to the Dow ETH thing. 1:43:10 It's very funny. 1:43:11 You've assembled a very intriguing. 1:43:13 I certainly, I have to say, I can't, I really can't endorse it because, again, I am so hung up on this whole selling a dream. 1:43:21 You know, your main value proposition is number go up. 1:43:25 So if you get something for free, you think you're going to lose money on it? 1:43:29 No, I think it's, I'm not saying that, you know what I would advise anyone listening is I would say claim it as long as you can do so. 1:43:37 Keeping your private keys and everything very safe. 1:43:40 Very safe. 1:43:41 We use a signature. 1:43:42 You never upload your keys anyway. 1:43:44 Any two, one or two people talking on YouTube with that premise, you should check very carefully to make sure that your private key never leaves your air gaps computer or whatever. 1:43:54 I agree. 1:43:56 I think you should claim. 1:43:57 And then I think, you know, you should just sell a little bit of immediately, but not all of it and have fun. 1:44:05 And, you know, I agree with you a hundred percent. 1:44:08 Yeah. 1:44:09 So it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, you build a lot of moving pieces here. 1:44:14 Well, here's the funny part. 1:44:16 After the first year, most of the shit goes away. 1:44:18 After the first year, this is the simplest fucking thing in the world. 1:44:21 It's literally. 1:44:22 This entire thing is like a Hail Mary pass on recognizability and like buy in for like the first year. 1:44:29 It's already working. 1:44:31 It's not really Hail Mary. 1:44:32 No, I think it's very funny. 1:44:34 I mean, well, I didn't get to state the second thing. 1:44:36 I was talking about how you, one reason why I wanted to do this conversation is because you are doing that. 1:44:43 You're kind of, you are kind of like holding up a mirror to the BTC as number go up. 1:44:49 Yeah. 1:44:50 That's all it is. 1:44:52 Which I find to be extremely funny. 1:44:54 But lately number go down. 1:44:57 Which is a neat concept. 1:45:00 But of course, the second thing is that culture has evolved a massive amount of closed mindedness, a lot of which was originally. 1:45:09 So as I want to say, a lot of it was, it makes sense if you were in this space for a really long time, of course, and you saw Litecoin. 1:45:16 It's, you know, it's very insulting for somebody to just copy and paste what Satoshi must have spent so much time. 1:45:24 He chose the MIT license so he can suck a dick. 1:45:27 He could have chosen a different license. 1:45:28 I agree. 1:45:30 I'm not saying that it's, you know, violates any laws or licenses. 1:45:34 I'm just saying that it is insulting, I think, in my opinion. 1:45:38 I think every fair minded person has. 1:45:40 So you see Bitcoin people have been in the audience. 1:45:43 They've seen so many just terrible projects. 1:45:45 So, of course, everything is a scam for like the first years and years. 1:45:50 And then new people show up and they just absorb this part of the culture. 1:45:53 They just think that, oh, a new thing shows up, you call it a scam. 1:45:58 You haven't been called a scamming piece of shit yet. 1:46:01 You're pushing back against that. 1:46:03 And I don't know if you are. 1:46:05 I don't know if that's a good or bad thing or if you are the right person to be pushing back against it. 1:46:14 But nonetheless, it is weird that we are living through this time where it is dialed up so much that it's almost, you know, what I say it, I mean, Bitcoin is calling everything a scam. 1:46:27 Well, there's nothing else for them to talk about. 1:46:29 There must be some kind of reaction to it at some point. 1:46:33 And so I want to explore that. 1:46:35 Sure. 1:46:36 There's nothing else for them to talk about because there's nothing going on in Bitcoin. 1:46:39 It's boring. 1:46:40 There's nothing going on. 1:46:42 It's become self-referential and it is just about what other people have said and not much about the external physical world. 1:46:51 They're not doing their own measurements. 1:46:52 There's been this big mission about taking money away from banks. 1:46:56 Let me sell your idea for you. 1:46:58 When was the last time Bitcoiners even said anything about that mission? 1:47:01 I can't even remember the last time someone said something about it. 1:47:05 I have a chart of narratives that came and went over time for both Bitcoin and Ethereum. 1:47:09 Ideas come and then they disappear. 1:47:11 So, like, Ethereum, world computer. 1:47:14 Eh, not really. 1:47:15 Okay, DAOs, distributed companies. 1:47:18 No, fuck that one. 1:47:19 And then, oh, DeFi now. 1:47:22 Maybe that one works, right? 1:47:23 Bitcoin. 1:47:24 Programmable money. 1:47:25 Lol. 1:47:26 Nope. 1:47:27 Okay, peer-to-peer digital currency. 1:47:29 Nope. 1:47:30 Digital gold. 1:47:31 All right, that one seems all right. 1:47:33 And so they just keep these narratives come and go. 1:47:36 Now, as far as what you're saying about the scam shit, 1:47:39 when everything is a scam, assuming everything is a scam is great. 1:47:44 And now that 99% of things are scam, great. 1:47:48 Assuming things are scam is great. 1:47:50 Here's the problem. 1:47:52 That 1% that's not a scam will take over and pass you up and eat your fucking lunch. 1:47:57 And then you'll wonder why you're not number one market cap anymore. 1:48:00 You'll wonder how the fuck that happened. 1:48:01 Where did that come from? 1:48:02 Nokia used to be all the cell phones. 1:48:04 Now they're none of the cell phones. 1:48:06 Motorola used to be all the fucking cell phones in the States. 1:48:08 Now they're none of the cell phones. 1:48:10 IBM used to make all the laptops. 1:48:12 Now they make none of the fucking laptops. 1:48:14 Well, how did that shit happen? 1:48:16 Well, everything's a fucking scam. 1:48:18 We're the best. 1:48:19 We're the best. 1:48:20 Everything's a scam. 1:48:21 We're the best. 1:48:22 Blah, blah, blah. 1:48:23 I totally agree that network effects certainly isn't everything. 1:48:24 If that were the case, 1:48:25 BTC would never have been able to make any dent at all in the U.S. dollar, 1:48:28 and the U.S. dollar would just be humiliating to talk about Bitcoin, 1:48:32 which it sort of was very early on. 1:48:35 Anyone remembers those days, 1:48:37 these olden days where it was just humiliating to even talk about it, 1:48:41 talk about Bitcoin at all because it just seemed so crazy? 1:48:44 So if you keep your head in the stand and you do what's easy, 1:48:49 and you don't have to read all these fucking white papers because there's so many, 1:48:53 have fun with that and it feels good, 1:48:55 and I hope your number go up, 1:48:57 but eventually something better will come, 1:48:59 and it will eat your lunch, 1:49:00 and you won't be number one market cap anymore. 1:49:01 And to tell you the truth, 1:49:02 if you're happy with having only 2.8 million wallets with over $1,000 in them, 1:49:08 you're a loser. 1:49:09 This is not a successful tech project. 1:49:11 It's amazing that it could have such a high market cap with no fucking adoption anywhere. 1:49:16 People don't understand what real adoption looks like. 1:49:19 You're buying into it in a way, though, 1:49:21 because you're saying, 1:49:22 look, I'm giving, 1:49:23 well, you gave. 1:49:24 It happened in the past. 1:49:25 It happened on December 1st. 1:49:26 But you're saying the project, 1:49:31 you're saying set aside the software release, 1:49:35 but this UTXO set that it produced, 1:49:38 this community is so valuable that they are going to be the seed in which I plant my new thing. 1:49:45 So that's kind of a neat thing. 1:49:47 It shouldn't be that amazing. 1:49:49 You know what I mean? 1:49:51 The market cap for Bitcoin could be so high is that if you have it, 1:49:56 you're on the road for all of these hard forks of which I would say, 1:49:59 I would say hex is a hard fork. 1:50:01 It's a very weird one. 1:50:02 But I would say it is a hard fork of Bitcoin. 1:50:05 In general, I support experimentation through hard forks. 1:50:08 I really think that they, 1:50:10 it is unfortunately a hobbled experiment, 1:50:14 and it's not a true experiment that sidechains would provide, 1:50:17 for example. 1:50:20 But yeah, I think that... 1:50:22 You know if you're ever successful with your sidechain thing, 1:50:24 you're going to get called a fucking scammer every day forever. 1:50:27 Just so you know. 1:50:29 Yeah, well... 1:50:30 Give you the heads up. 1:50:31 It doesn't remain to be seen exactly how that will play out. 1:50:35 Oh, I know. 1:50:36 Because as we've discussed, 1:50:39 there has been a lot of sort of pointless controversy over it when it is totally opt-in 1:50:46 and deployed completely by some fork and all these other things. 1:50:50 So that is kind of a weird thing for people to be upset about. 1:50:56 And it seems to me that what people are really upset about is 1:51:01 other developers getting their way. 1:51:04 And that... 1:51:06 Well, first of all, most, as you say, 99% of things are just terrible. 1:51:10 And so people often, they say, what would I use a sidechain for? 1:51:15 With some justification, because almost all of them do suck. 1:51:19 But yeah, really, it's a kind of disloyalty to the Bitcoin Core developers 1:51:22 that I think is really what comes up. 1:51:24 Could I say that, in fact, actually most of these things don't suck? 1:51:28 So for instance, everyone makes fun of XRP. 1:51:31 I make fun of XRP. 1:51:32 Everyone makes fun of it. 1:51:33 This shit does actually move money from here to there instantly, 1:51:36 faster than other blockchains. 1:51:38 Okay. 1:51:39 Well, it doesn't actually suck. 1:51:40 Particularly if you're doing arbitrage 1:51:42 and you're worried about the price spread making you at a loss 1:51:45 instead of a gain. 1:51:47 Does Dogecoin suck? 1:51:48 It's worth a quarter of a billion dollars. 1:51:51 Sorry? 1:51:52 Does Dogecoin suck? 1:51:53 It's worth a quarter of a billion dollars. 1:51:55 It's a joke coin. 1:51:56 Fork of Bitcoin. 1:51:57 Works fine. 1:51:58 It is explicitly a joke. 1:51:59 And it does a very good job. 1:52:00 I mean, one thing it was doing, it was saying, 1:52:03 if your coin is worth less than this, 1:52:05 then how much of a failure are you? 1:52:10 It was explicitly satirical. 1:52:15 Saying, as if we tried. 1:52:17 As if we tried to come up with a logo. 1:52:19 It's just a Shiba Inu. 1:52:24 Bro. 1:52:25 People ask me, they're like, why would anyone buy Hex? 1:52:28 I'm like, listen, lots of good reasons, 1:52:30 but even if we didn't have any good reasons, 1:52:32 Dogecoin is worth a quarter of a billion dollars. 1:52:34 Shut the fuck up. 1:52:35 It's like. 1:52:37 Yeah. 1:52:38 Like. 1:52:39 You know, being worth more partially validates, 1:52:42 but not completely. 1:52:43 The project is, you know. 1:52:46 Well, I'm not saying. 1:52:48 If a person, so who has, in crypto, really, 1:52:52 who has the onus of responsibility? 1:52:55 The person that says the price will go up, 1:52:57 or the person that says price will go down? 1:52:59 Because what I see is a top 100 market cap 1:53:01 full of fucking jokes that are worth shit loads 1:53:04 that have no adoption whatsoever. 1:53:06 That's what I see. 1:53:07 And so if a joke. 1:53:09 It's symmetric. 1:53:10 I think anyone making any claim about the price is. 1:53:14 The good, you know, they have to justify that somehow. 1:53:17 As long as Dogecoin is worth a quarter of a billion dollars, 1:53:19 it's very hard for me to say that any project won't go up in price. 1:53:24 Truthfully. 1:53:27 Yeah, but you know, Dogecoin. 1:53:30 That it hasn't. 1:53:31 It's not as you yourself said. 1:53:33 It's not that Dogecoin has just gone up and up and up and up forever. 1:53:36 No, everything goes up and down. 1:53:37 Everything. 1:53:38 You can't even get out of that. 1:53:40 Everything goes up and down. 1:53:41 Just some things don't go back up. 1:53:44 Sure. 1:53:46 What was the point of saying it was worth 250 million? 1:53:48 Or whatever. 1:53:49 That people ask you. 1:53:52 So your brain, I can feel it. 1:53:55 I can feel it. 1:53:56 Your brain wants to believe that there has to be some interesting 1:54:00 or good reason for people to buy a thing. 1:54:03 And I'm telling you it's not the case. 1:54:05 There is some reason. 1:54:07 Something caused them to. 1:54:09 The hype is worth more than the technology. 1:54:11 Every time. 1:54:12 Every time. 1:54:14 And it will always be that way. 1:54:15 I don't know. 1:54:16 Because that doesn't actually help you succeed, though. 1:54:18 Because then you have to be the best hype guy. 1:54:22 I'm pretty good. 1:54:23 I don't know. 1:54:24 You know, then you've got to be the best hype guy forever. 1:54:27 No. 1:54:28 You just have to build an ecosystem that rewards other people for making 1:54:31 hype. 1:54:32 Someone could maybe develop a. 1:54:35 Mark Zuckerberg could steal the hex strategy. 1:54:38 You could have. 1:54:39 It would be unlikely. 1:54:40 10%. 1:54:41 You could have. 1:54:42 Someone could have 12% if you have a referral. 1:54:43 Instead of 10%. 1:54:44 He would be the first. 1:54:45 He would be the first fork to outperform the original. 1:54:49 So Ethereum. 1:54:50 Ethereum has a theorem classic. 1:54:52 It's worth like what? 1:54:53 Three or percent, 2%. 1:54:54 Something like that. 1:54:55 It was a fork that outperformed the original. 1:54:57 Yes? 1:54:58 No. 1:54:59 Ethereum is worth more than Ethereum classic. 1:55:00 Oh, you're talking about. 1:55:01 Okay. 1:55:02 Ethereum is the fork. 1:55:03 Yeah, yeah. 1:55:04 Okay. 1:55:05 Yes. 1:55:06 So Ethereum is the fork. 1:55:07 Ethereum classic is the real original thing. 1:55:09 And the real original thing is worth about 2% or 3% of the fork. 1:55:13 Forks in general do not do well. 1:55:16 But they could have other advantages that make up for that disadvantage. 1:55:19 I agree. 1:55:20 That's what I was just saying. 1:55:21 That the hard fork. 1:55:22 Oh. 1:55:23 Oh. 1:55:25 All right. 1:55:26 Let's hear it. 1:55:27 People buy crypto because they want the price to go up. 1:55:30 That's my thesis. 1:55:31 I think that's true. 1:55:32 But you understand that that is not. 1:55:34 That's very difficult for you to channel that greed into one specific project. 1:55:39 Apparently not, bro. 1:55:40 Like X has already got $6 million of Ethereum transformed into hex on the first two weeks. 1:55:46 So apparently it's going okay. 1:55:49 With not a zero. 1:55:50 Not a single dollar spent on marketing. 1:55:54 Opportunity cost of your time and other things. 1:55:56 I understand what you mean. 1:55:58 I don't know. 1:56:00 It seems like it doesn't have any purpose other than number go up. 1:56:06 It only does everything better than Bitcoin except for liquidity, retail adoption, substrate for liquid. 1:56:14 It's very funny that you've narrowly zoned in on the store of value. 1:56:21 It also does cheaper transactions. 1:56:23 And it also has anonymity because of tornado cash soon. 1:56:27 Oh, yeah. 1:56:28 Sure. 1:56:29 Maybe weird. 1:56:30 If you're in technology. 1:56:31 It's not weird. 1:56:32 It's just code. 1:56:33 All this is just code, man. 1:56:34 It's not something weird about it. 1:56:35 It's just normal code. 1:56:37 There's nothing weird about it. 1:56:39 I mean, I do have to say on behalf of the technical community, I have to thank you for producing a project. 1:56:47 Before asking for the money and bucking the horrible ICO trend, as I've already said. 1:56:52 And as a Bitcoiner, I have to thank you for honoring in some way the UTXO set, even though you didn't totally honor the 1,000 BTC and up. 1:57:04 But 140K in GOX, they can't claim. 1:57:06 139K. 1:57:07 Brethren. 1:57:08 But anyway, I do support hard forks. 1:57:13 People giving me money for free. 1:57:15 I support that. 1:57:16 And other Bitcoiners should as well. 1:57:18 You're welcome. 1:57:19 The hatred for the hard forks, I think, is irrational. 1:57:23 I don't understand it at all. 1:57:25 I agree. 1:57:26 You know what I love talking about, talking with you? 1:57:29 I can tell that you're thinking on the fly and truly putting diligence into the ideas. 1:57:34 And you're not repeating canned talking points. 1:57:36 You know what's true is that I did not do any preparation for this at all. 1:57:41 So thinking on the fly is all I've got. 1:57:43 That's all I've got. 1:57:44 It's better. 1:57:45 It's better for the audience. 1:57:46 They can learn at the same time. 1:57:50 So there you go, buddy. 1:57:51 It's very funny. 1:57:53 I don't know. 1:57:55 It's people's definition of a scam. 1:57:57 That word has morphed. 1:58:00 And at this point, it's a kind of— 1:58:02 It just means not Bitcoin. 1:58:04 That's all it means now. 1:58:05 But there's a kind of shame or a kind of treadmill. 1:58:10 What was that phrase that Steven Pinker used at some point about if you don't— 1:58:19 If your standards are lax, there's a bias. 1:58:23 If I fail to point out a scam, then I'm complicit and I've harmed everyone. 1:58:29 It's kind of like all the world needs to do to be damned is to have good men. 1:58:36 So I need to lean into skepticism, which everyone should. 1:58:41 Yeah. 1:58:42 Look, I support that. 1:58:43 Don't listen to anything I've said. 1:58:44 Go read the code. 1:58:45 It's literally on etherscam.io. 1:58:47 So you go to hex.win. 1:58:49 Right up at the top, it says here's the contract address. 1:58:53 Copy that into etherscam.io. 1:58:55 Hit Enter and then click Code. 1:58:58 And then it will show you the verified code of the contract. 1:59:02 And that's what's being run. 1:59:04 That type of stuff is— 1:59:05 Well, I have a question about the— 1:59:07 So is there some kind of timeline for redeem? 1:59:09 Is it a year? 1:59:10 Yeah, you bleed every week. 1:59:12 You bleed 2% until there's nothing left. 1:59:14 Oh, this is very like— 1:59:16 Yeah. 1:59:17 This is really something. 1:59:18 You're like— 1:59:19 You are like if the jigsaw serial killer— 1:59:24 Yeah, if you don't claim the first day. 1:59:26 So the first day, you get a 20% bonus and it falls to zero linearly over 350 days. 1:59:33 And you bleed out your whole stack linearly over 350 days. 1:59:38 And the people that will receive the value of what you could have claimed are the stakers. 1:59:42 And they get paid by shares. 1:59:44 The longer they stake, the more they make. 1:59:46 So you're bleeding every day you don't claim and giving it to the people that believe the most in the project. 1:59:53 Yeah, no, it makes sense to me. 1:59:55 I'm going to say I think this project is very unlikely to defeat BTC. 2:00:00 But I do support all creative projects and especially hard forks that honor the UTXO set. 2:00:06 So I think now that you've— 2:00:09 Let's give it a shot. 2:00:10 And it should be fun to watch. 2:00:14 Imagine—I'll put it this way. 2:00:16 If we did beat BTC and we did it, imagine what the ROI percent would have to be in order to pass BTC on the market cap in a short time frame. 2:00:24 The ROI percent would be millions of percent, I think. 2:00:30 Depends on where you measure it from. 2:00:32 So people jumped in really, really heavy day one. 2:00:35 Even though I showed them the EOS charts and said, look how everyone jumped in overly heavy day one. 2:00:39 Maybe you want to average in. 2:00:41 They just—everyone jumped in day one anyway. 2:00:43 Even though the launch is 351 days. 2:00:46 They just jumped in heavy anyway. 2:00:48 So then those guys can now—the ratio that they got for HEX to the ETH that they put in, it's now like 20 times better. 2:00:58 So the people that are putting in now are getting 20 times more than the guys that put in the first day. 2:01:04 Because just too many people jumped in the first day. 2:01:06 Two years of anticipation was released on a single day. 2:01:10 And now we're getting a day of anticipation every day basically. 2:01:14 And you see it in the numbers. 2:01:15 Interesting. 2:01:16 Well, you know, many people have designed weird things like pyramid schemes that have all these bells and whistles. 2:01:22 But also just any normal thing where you would sell a concert, you have the early bird pricing and whatever. 2:01:28 All this stuff has been done before, but— 2:01:33 I don't think these things that are— 2:01:36 Yeah, you have some truly weird stuff in here. 2:01:39 I think there's some unique things here. 2:01:41 Like a lot of them. 2:01:42 Most important is, I believe, the graph of future market supply. 2:01:46 That should give us a better Sharpe ratio. 2:01:49 Because you can choose to have your stake end when someone else's isn't. 2:01:52 And then you spread out the supply shock over a wider range. 2:01:56 And you have more intelligence in the market about the future state of the system. 2:02:00 You can't directly manage the circulating supply. 2:02:04 Right. 2:02:05 That doesn't exist anywhere else. 2:02:07 There's no other cryptocurrency in the world that has that. 2:02:10 It's amazing. 2:02:11 It's really, really good. 2:02:13 Groundbreaking economics. 2:02:15 Other places, I don't know, like markets. 2:02:17 There's different markets. 2:02:18 In normal finance, I think that exists. 2:02:20 But in crypto, it doesn't. 2:02:22 Yeah. 2:02:23 Well, maybe. 2:02:24 I don't know. 2:02:25 I don't know. 2:02:26 There's a million projects in crypto, and there's no possible way I can look at any of them. 2:02:32 But yeah, well, I don't know. 2:02:34 This has been going on for a long time. 2:02:36 This is two hours? 2:02:38 Yep. 2:02:40 So it's been fun. 2:02:41 It's been fun, bro. 2:02:42 Thank you for asking me about sidechains. 2:02:45 I did not expect that. 2:02:46 I didn't prepare for that. 2:02:47 I hope that you are able to make them successful. 2:02:49 Yeah, we'll see. 2:02:50 We will see. 2:02:51 If so, then people could do weird projects like this. 2:02:55 On an ecosystem that doesn't want them to. 2:02:57 Not only, right? 2:02:58 It would be its own piece of software. 2:03:00 And you could then not only buy in for one Bitcoin, but also change your mind and escape 2:03:07 back to the, say, I don't like that. 2:03:09 That was a mistake. 2:03:10 Although, if someone did a project like yours, it would necessarily have to involve all kinds 2:03:14 of weird demurrage inflation techs, like over there, happening in the sidechain with their 2:03:19 money. 2:03:20 They would be getting a different quantity of money back somehow. 2:03:23 Yep. 2:03:24 Pretty much. 2:03:25 Things you've been doing over there, but someone could do them. 2:03:27 You've got online incentives. 2:03:28 You've got online incentives. 2:03:30 Who deserves the most of a new cryptocurrency is the question. 2:03:33 Who deserves the most? 2:03:35 Well, the people that sacrifice the most and believe the most, is my opinion. 2:03:38 So, that's what we built. 2:03:42 Oh, well, I'm not sure that that... 2:03:44 Isn't that already what would happen? 2:03:46 You would say, miners would mine, but then they're selling them at this big auction, 2:03:49 and then they go to the highest bidder. 2:03:51 They would already go to people who, even in the Bitcoin case, in 2029... 2:03:56 I don't think that rewarding Asian silicon manufacturers that won't talk to you on Twitter 2:04:02 is that good for the world. 2:04:04 Yes, but you say they generate the coins, but they have to sell them. 2:04:07 As you yourself pointed out, Dan, to immediately sell them, they go to the highest bidder on 2:04:11 the market. 2:04:12 And so, the market is constantly preserving allocative efficiency, as it's called. 2:04:18 People who value the coin will end up with them. 2:04:21 But you're saying who gets the inflation tax? 2:04:23 Yes. 2:04:25 Because whoever gets the money first gets the most value, because it hasn't pushed the 2:04:29 price down yet. 2:04:31 In Satoshi's design, it's just kind of like... 2:04:34 It's not that good. 2:04:36 Satoshi's design is not that good. 2:04:38 Let me ask you this. 2:04:39 Why does the inflation rate drop only every once every four years? 2:04:42 Why not every fucking day? 2:04:44 What's up with that stupid shit? 2:04:45 Why isn't it just constant? 2:04:47 Why the fuck do we have this huge... 2:04:49 I wrote a blog post. 2:04:50 It's weird that I think Peter Todd and I are the only two people who share that view. 2:04:55 It's stupid. 2:04:56 Me and Peter Todd, which is very funny. 2:04:58 It's kind of a mistake. 2:05:00 Even though the difficulty adjustments, jumping discreetly every two weeks, was definitely a smart decision, as Andrew Polster has pointed out in his cool paper, and other people, the supply shocks should probably not be a huge amount in one day. 2:05:23 That's very dumb. 2:05:24 That's a weird feature. 2:05:25 I'll leave you with a final question, because we've already done two hours. 2:05:28 Not that I care, but I know you're probably getting tired. 2:05:33 I came up with an idea that I thought was remedial and stupid, but would probably work. 2:05:38 If people actually care about Bitcoin scaling, why don't you just make a couple extra Bitcoins that run on a different port, and one is Bitcoin North America, and one is Bitcoin China, and one is Bitcoin Europe, 2:05:52 and then you can atomic cross swap when you want to get across, and then you have higher throughput by whatever number of chains that you had. 2:05:59 Indeed, yeah. 2:06:00 Sidechains could plausibly work that way. 2:06:03 There could be a few different large block payment sidechains, and it would make sense for them to be... 2:06:07 Okay. 2:06:08 So this idea was not stupid. 2:06:09 It would work, right? 2:06:11 No, I think it would, because they would not want to do the atomic swaps, because that's two kind of fake transactions on each one transaction, each network, but not really to transact. 2:06:24 It's only to send money to yourself. 2:06:26 So you would want to minimize those, so you would want to do them as little as possible, so you'd want to have them all with your trading partners, and Amazon would be in all three and whatever it is. 2:06:39 I posted that on Twitter. 2:06:40 No one responds. 2:06:41 No one cares, because no one actually cares about scaling Bitcoin, because they only care about the price going up. 2:06:47 Well, I don't know about that, but that is a dominant rubric for people. 2:06:52 Maybe it's just Twitter. 2:06:53 Maybe if I posted that on Bitcoin Wizards... 2:06:55 Twitter? 2:06:56 I don't know. 2:06:58 It's hard to explain exactly the role of Twitter, because as I have been mentioning, what is in people's brains and what is in the culture is actually extremely important, and Twitter is more in control of that than I think anyone is comfortable with. 2:07:19 I like Twitter. 2:07:21 I like Twitter. 2:07:23 I'll take Twitter over Reddit. 2:07:25 I'm trying to say Twitter is not Bitcoin. 2:07:31 It's certainly true to a great extent, but not completely. 2:07:35 So you're going to claim your hex, and everyone else is going to go to drivechain.info to check out your sidechain thing. 2:07:40 Yeah, I'm going to research very carefully exactly what has to happen to my private keys. 2:07:45 Can I tell you what you do? 2:07:47 You just go to go.hex.win. 2:07:49 If you want a 10% bonus, go to pumpamentals.com, and then go to gotohex.win in the same browser. 2:07:55 Install MetaMask, which is just an Ethereum wallet that allows you to talk to the blockchain. 2:08:03 You put your Bitcoin address in there. 2:08:05 Now, if you want to be anonymous, you do it through a VPN. 2:08:08 Clear cookies, go through VPN. 2:08:11 Yeah, definitely. 2:08:12 VirtualBox will be involved probably a few times. 2:08:15 To go to a website. 2:08:16 You don't have to have a VirtualBox to go to a website, but if you want to, go ahead. 2:08:21 If you're Paul Sztorc, open up virtualbox.org, install whatever OS that you want. 2:08:28 Maybe you use Tails, whatever. 2:08:32 Go to go.hex.win. 2:08:34 If you want a 10% bonus, click pumpamentals first, pumpamentals.com. 2:08:38 Put in your Bitcoin address. 2:08:40 Click claim. 2:08:41 Copy the statement out into your Bitcoin wallet. 2:08:44 Now, this statement is simply claim hex 2, your Ethereum address. 2:08:49 That's all it is. 2:08:50 It's not exciting. 2:08:51 It's not interesting. 2:08:52 You can't lose any money. 2:08:53 It's a fucking feature of your wallet because it is safe to use. 2:08:56 You copy that into your wallet in the tools, sign message. 2:09:01 I was going to ask if you use the sign message thing that's right in there. 2:09:04 Yep. 2:09:05 You paste that, and then you sign it, and you copy and paste the signature, and you click submit. 2:09:09 As long as you've got one penny of ETH, or you can mine your own block a lot harder, 2:09:13 but as long as you've got one penny of ETH or maybe sometimes three or four pennies, 2:09:16 you will mint your hex right there, and then you're done. 2:09:22 I have this video to walk you through doing that, even importing your keys to Electrum. 2:09:26 If you had a wallet that sucked and didn't have the sign message feature, 2:09:29 and then you had to import keys to something else. 2:09:31 If you've already got Trezor, it's native. 2:09:33 You don't have to touch anything. 2:09:34 You stay native in the device. 2:09:36 If you use Ledger, you've got to use Electrum because they deprecated the signature function because they suck. 2:09:42 Very wise of you to use the inbuilt sign message feature. 2:09:46 If you had said stuff about open the console and start typing, then our conversation would have changed. 2:09:51 Don't do that. 2:09:52 Don't ever type in the console. 2:09:53 And don't sign a weird message. 2:09:55 If someone sends you a message that's fucking 400 characters long, don't sign that. 2:09:59 It's all just hex, and you can't. 2:10:01 You can't reason about it. 2:10:02 You need to know what you're signing. 2:10:04 In our thing, it's just one thing that says claim hex to your Ethereum address, and it's totally fucking safe. 2:10:09 And if you want to be totally secure, claim each Bitcoin address to a new Ethereum address, 2:10:14 and choose a different exit node on your VPN, and clear your cookies. 2:10:22 You're as anonymous as you entered. 2:10:25 That doesn't sound, nothing about that seems suspicious to me, but you never know. 2:10:29 Everyone should check first. 2:10:31 Don't ever put your private keys online. 2:10:36 If you use a good wallet, you don't even have to look at your fucking private keys. 2:10:39 You're literally just signing a message. 2:10:40 You don't even have to ever see them. 2:10:44 Well, I mean, what good is that? 2:10:46 Your computer is seeing them. 2:10:47 Well, sure. 2:10:50 If you have a visual bug in your house, and there's a camera, then it reduces that. 2:10:54 I usually don't see most of what my computer does. 2:10:57 Right, yeah. 2:10:59 We've got hardware wallet support, so if you use Electrum, which is a Bitcoin wallet, 2:11:03 it supports Trezor and Ledger, and Coldcard, I think. 2:11:06 And then if you use on the Ethereum side, which is the hex wallet as well, 2:11:09 if you use Metamask, it supports Trezor and Ledger. 2:11:12 And so you've got hardware wallet support everywhere. 2:11:15 It's fucking great. 2:11:16 Why? Because we chose the right ecosystem. 2:11:19 Imagine if I had built my own fucking blockchain, worry about 51% of tax all the time, 2:11:23 no hardware wallet support, everything's a fucking nightmare. 2:11:27 So much better the way we did it. 2:11:28 So much better. 2:11:32 It's good talking to you, man. 2:11:35 Yes, this has been fun. 2:11:37 Anytime. 2:11:38 I don't know what the future holds for this project that has no physical use in the world. 2:11:45 Just look at the top 10, look at the top 100 cryptos. 2:11:48 I know that the crazy crypto markets have taught all of us many strange lessons. 2:11:57 In particular, the fact that Zcash can outcompete Zclassic. 2:12:03 Well, Zcash couldn't outcompete itself because all it's ever done is die. 2:12:08 Go look at the price chart of Zcash and you'll cry. 2:12:13 The earlier you bought, the more you lost, basically. 2:12:18 Oh, yeah, the inflation tax. 2:12:19 Well, you see, that's the thing, though, is that if it were, well, you know, who knows? 2:12:24 Bro, the price chart's fucked. 2:12:26 No pumps ever.