0:00 What's up, party people? This is Alex Waltz, and this is Paul Sztorc, and this is Bitcoin Reservations. 0:08 Yes, it is. So, Alex, I hear you are giving away a lot of your treasured Bitcoin books. 0:15 Yeah, that is very true. So, over these years, I accumulated a lot of like Bitcoin shit, and 0:21 now I don't want any more, and instead of throwing it away, 0:24 let's use this opportunity to get some subscribers to our channel. 0:28 We're going to sell out in a way. We're going to bribe people, not with money, but with 0:36 cool books that have been signed by the authors. 0:39 Yes, that is very true. And speaking of, so I have Alden Antonopoulos books here. 0:45 This is one of them, and it's signed by him. 0:47 Look at that. 0:48 And then we also have the well-known Mastering Bitcoin here. 0:55 It's also signed by him. 0:56 That's a good one. 0:57 Yeah, we will have the second volume of the other one, also signed by Andreas. 1:01 Oh, wow, you're a real collector. 1:02 And then we also have a Mastering Shitcoins by... 1:07 There we go. And is it signed by Gavin Wood also? 1:10 No. Oh my God, is this one not signed or something? I don't know. Maybe this one isn't signed. 1:15 And then we also... Okay, so that's the Andreas books, by the way. 1:18 And then I have a Grokking Bitcoin here, which is not signed. 1:23 Excellent book, though. 1:25 Super good books. Super. I recommend it to anyone. 1:29 It really brings light to a lot of things. Super great book. 1:31 You really will Grok Bitcoin if you read it. 1:33 I don't know. I don't know if anyone will ever Grok Bitcoin, but that book comes close. 1:39 Yeah, I mean, I just liked it. 1:40 And then there's the Safedin book here. 1:41 Oh, no. Oh my God, it's signed to you. 1:45 By the way, all these books are signed to me personally. 1:48 They all say Alex in them? None of them just say... 1:50 All of them say Alex. 1:52 Okay, wait, wait. No, if you have a friend named Alex. 1:58 If you have a friend or like a nephew named Alex or something. 2:04 I mean, wait. 2:05 No, that one said Alex Waltz. I saw it in the other one. 2:07 There's more. There's more. And here's the Jordan Peterson one. 2:12 Is it signed by him? 2:13 Yes, it is. But he says Alex Waltz because they misspelled my name in the signing of the book. 2:18 With an F? 2:20 Yeah, I have a crazy story there, but I'm going to look after it. 2:23 Okay, wait, there's more swag. There's more shit. 2:26 There's the open dimes here. 2:28 There's one pack has one limited edition one. 2:31 Those are great. 2:32 And also this power things here. 2:34 Shout outs to, you know, Rodolfo. 2:37 Exactly. 2:37 He gave me... I was in... I met him in... 2:41 Oh, something really loud is happening outside. 2:43 I met him in... whatever. 2:47 Satoshi Roundtable, and he gave me a bunch of those. 2:49 They're great. 2:50 This is really cool. 2:51 They're very fun. It's fun to just have something physical, you know, 2:54 because Bitcoin is so intangible. 2:56 Yeah, well, wait, there's more. 2:57 It's fun about the open dimes. 2:58 There's more items. So there's two packs of them. 3:01 This one has two special edition ones. 3:03 And wait, wait, wait, there's still more to come. 3:06 There's still more to come. 3:07 And there's some overinflated money. 3:09 There's some Zimbabwe currency here. 3:11 We have quite a few of this. 3:12 You're a Bitcoiner, you love that Zimbabwe stuff. 3:15 It's great. 3:15 Oh, my God. 3:16 I had someone ask me... 3:17 For some reason, people struggle with that kind of thing. 3:19 I had a Zimbabwe thing. 3:21 I have like a little tray near where you come into my house. 3:26 And I had money from all around the world there. 3:28 For whenever I would travel, I'd bring some back. 3:30 So it was cool. 3:30 So it was like, there's a bunch of money there. 3:32 But on closer inspection, 3:33 you see all the coins are like different shapes and sizes and things. 3:36 And some of it... 3:36 I had a Zimbabwe, 100 million Zimbabwe note. 3:40 And people were like, that's not real. 3:44 And I was like, it's real. 3:45 People have a lot of... 3:46 People have trouble grasping this whole... 3:48 A lot of these money concepts that... 3:51 It's really real, but it's really not worth anything. 3:53 But people are like, that's not real. 3:55 That's fake. 3:56 I'm like, no, it's real. 3:57 It's just... It's not worth anything. 3:59 Anyway, what do you got other than Zimbabwe? 4:01 Everyone's got... 4:01 Every Bitcoiner has got a Zimbabwe thing already. 4:04 We have the... 4:05 Some Venezuelan money. 4:07 Some... 4:08 This is some really old... 4:11 What do you call it? 4:12 German money. 4:13 And I got this one. 4:14 Oh, by the way. 4:15 And this one I got from Rockstar Div 4:18 at the Lightning Conference in Berlin. 4:20 Okay. 4:21 The... 4:21 What the heck is that? 4:23 I don't know. 4:23 It's some fucking Eastern European shit. 4:25 I don't know what it is. 4:26 You don't know? 4:27 But you're from Eastern Europe. 4:28 Yeah, but I don't... 4:31 So this one's I got from the guys who make Spectre. 4:34 This one's the Venezuelan ones. 4:37 Shout out to Morris and Stefan. 4:39 They're doing some really crazy things. 4:40 By the way, here's the... 4:41 This one's I also got from Morris. 4:43 The weird Dutch one. 4:44 Sorry, German ones. 4:46 Here's the kicker. 4:47 The Zimbabwe dollars, 4:50 I bought them off Alex Bosworth 4:52 at the Lightning Conference with a Lightning payment. 4:54 I have proof of that. 4:55 I have proof of that. 4:56 You have proof on the blockchain. 4:57 Can you print it out? 4:58 No, I haven't. 4:59 I haven't signed the paper 5:00 because I said, 5:01 motherfucker, you need to sign this. 5:02 And he signed it, by the way. 5:03 I thought you were going to say you had like proof, 5:05 like you could print out the... 5:07 You had like a Merkle path to the blockchain. 5:10 You could like prove that something happened. 5:12 Okay, so all this fucking swag. 5:14 All this fucking swag. 5:16 Okay. 5:17 First of all, if it was custodial, 5:18 you didn't pay with Lightning. 5:19 That's I'm just saying. 5:22 Anyway, all this swag here is going to be given away. 5:25 Make sure to follow BTC. 5:27 What's our gimmick? 5:28 If you follow, you can get it? 5:30 Yeah, you have to follow and read. 5:32 We're going to make a tweet. 5:33 And you have to like and retweet the tweet. 5:37 You have to follow us on Twitter, 5:39 which is btcreservation. 5:42 Add btcreservations. 5:43 And that's just it. 5:44 If you do those things, 5:45 we're going to split this up into how many prices we want, 5:48 probably free. 5:49 And we're going to be sure to look out for the tweet 5:52 in the show notes. 5:52 And you get all the shit free. 5:55 Okay, Paul. 5:56 Yeah, but it's time to Alex. 5:58 Give it to someone, a friend of yours named Alex. 6:01 Well, actually, think about it. 6:02 This is actually double the value 6:03 because when I'm going to be super famous and whatever. 6:05 Yeah, that's true. 6:07 Guys, honestly, it's, you know, it's possible. 6:10 Well, let me ask. 6:11 He did start one Bitcoin business in the past at some point. 6:16 And then he got robbed. 6:18 So he at least had enough money to get robbed. 6:22 That's more than most people. 6:24 That's the thing. 6:25 Imagine that's going to be worth millions. 6:27 It's the guy who got robbed. 6:28 The guy got robbed. 6:29 Local Bitcoin still has his $408 billion. 6:37 Well, anyway, 6:37 Just waiting for someone to claim it. 6:41 Well, I have a question for you, though. 6:43 So I'm putting out these books, which are worth some money. 6:45 Are you going to pay for the shipping, though? 6:49 That's a good question. 6:51 Oh, you're saying this is my contribution. 6:53 Yeah, you have to pay for the shipping. 6:54 You have the books and I have to pay for the shipping. 6:56 Yeah. 6:58 Can we find like a quirky Bitcoin way to ship things? 7:01 Like, is there like BitShip or something? 7:04 No, don't worry about it. 7:05 If we're going to do that, 7:06 we're definitely going to do it in the convoluted wannabe Bitcoin way. 7:09 The question is like, if you want to pass by. 7:12 Okay, sure. 7:13 But then, wait, but then whoever this has to reveal 7:16 their mailing address to me or their post office box or whatever. 7:19 Well, how the fuck else are we going to? 7:21 They're probably going to have to do it to me. 7:22 Because I'm going to send them off. 7:23 This is why we needed Dropzone. 7:25 The most important project ever that never materialized. 7:29 Yeah. 7:30 And imagine like people would be shipping heroin 7:32 and it would be us signing books with my name on shipping. 7:36 Exactly. 7:38 The original, the white paper called for distributing Bibles in North Korea, 7:42 which I was like, genius. 7:45 Wait, what? 7:46 You don't know what I'm talking about. 7:47 There was a Dropzone white paper. 7:50 And I think that Rose had something to do with that project. 7:54 So they say. 7:57 But there was a pretext. 7:58 The paper was not about drugs. 8:01 It was about sending Christian Bibles to North Korea. 8:05 Because the authors of the paper understood the power of the pretext. 8:11 Oh, I'm sorry. 8:11 I don't remember that. 8:12 I don't remember that. 8:13 Yeah, it's true. 8:14 You can look it up. 8:14 Not a lot of people know about it. 8:16 Well, anyway, do we have some shout outs? 8:19 We do have the shout outs. 8:21 Yeah. 8:22 Because you mentioned BTC reservation. 8:25 Does it have an S or no? 8:27 The Twitter account? 8:27 It does, I think. 8:28 But the question is, does it still spelled wrong in the title? 8:33 Do you know I didn't see that? 8:34 That's the Brian shout out. 8:37 Well, we have Sergey of Bitrefill. 8:40 Shout out to him. 8:41 He follows us there. 8:42 I don't know why. 8:43 Yeah, I don't know why either. 8:45 I don't know why anyone would ever follow us. 8:49 And then we have Jack of Thunder Games. 8:51 I don't know who that is. 8:52 That's your friend? 8:53 Yeah, he followed because he knows me probably. 8:55 Yeah. 8:56 Shout out to him anyway. 8:57 Cool guy. 8:58 Plays guitar. 8:59 Does some Bitcoin lightning game stuff. 9:01 Brian Armstrong of Open Bazaar. 9:05 Yep, correct. 9:06 Good old Brian Armstrong. 9:07 Our favorite Brian. 9:08 And then, yeah, Bidejo, my friend Bidejo. 9:13 I got this microphone now. 9:14 You know, I was like, I don't want to have a weird, creepy microphone with a stand because, 9:20 you know, I'm like, I don't know, like this weird thing will be in my house and it'll be like, 9:27 I don't know, like it just seemed like such a big, 9:29 like it seems like such a big step, like, you know, like putting so much effort in. 9:34 It's called being an adult and taking responsibility. 9:36 Well, then I went on Amazon and it was like $25. 9:40 And I was like, maybe I'm really overthinking this. 9:42 I don't know. 9:44 Yeah, I don't know. 9:45 I like the aesthetics of the thing. 9:47 I have this one right now, which is different. 9:49 Oh, that's pretty simple. 9:51 Yeah, but I used to have one. 9:52 I also used to have a boom arm. 9:54 Mine was more expensive than that, though I got a proper one 9:57 because I don't want it to make sounds when it squeaks, when it does that. 10:01 Does this one make sounds? 10:02 I don't think it makes any sense. 10:03 You just get some WD-40. 10:05 Okay, whatever. 10:06 Then maybe I overpaid for that for no specific reason. 10:11 So what is this? 10:11 Speaking of women, though, look, let's do this one. 10:15 Hot girl trigonometry on TikTok. 10:17 You found this. 10:18 This is amazing. 10:19 First of all, this trick is amazing for trigonometry that I had never known 10:23 in having done a master's degree in a branch of applied math, 10:28 having no idea about this. 10:29 It's amazing. 10:31 Education is going to be totally different in the future. 10:33 People are going to go to school and they're going to be like, this sucks. 10:36 They're going to go home and learn it themselves from the internet. 10:39 And then three or four years later, I don't know, children will just demand 10:45 that their parents only learn things from the internet or something. 10:52 They won't even want to go. 10:53 I don't know what's going to happen, but something weird is going to happen. 10:55 And the internet is a much better teacher than 99.999% of people 11:02 with the teacher profession in the world. 11:06 Academia can suck my dick. 11:08 That's one way to put it out there. 11:10 Fuck you, all those people in schools who told me I'll never be nothing. 11:14 Fuck you, the internet is taking your job. 11:16 Every one of them. 11:17 Anyway, let's get back on track. 11:18 Yeah, but what are you, though? 11:19 Do you have anything? 11:21 You have one yellow shirt. 11:22 I really don't want to be arrogant. 11:24 I really don't want to be, but you brought up. 11:25 I've literally have weekends of my life where I made more money 11:28 than most of the people made in their life. 11:29 And not because of Bitcoin, by the way. 11:31 I'm not saying like I made Bitcoin. 11:32 I never count that as making money. 11:34 I've literally made money. 11:35 You have profit from operations. 11:37 Yeah, and then there's weekends of my life, separate weekends of my life, 11:42 multiple of them where I've done more crazy things 11:46 that people dream about in a weekend. 11:48 And again, I don't want to brag things like this. 11:50 But that's why, you know, I don't want to bring this up, 11:53 but they told me always like I'm going to be a loser 11:56 and be in a ditch and whatever. 11:57 And the people in school, they were like, man, you have to learn. 11:59 Anyway, fuck academia. 12:00 That's not important. 12:01 All those people in Bucharest. 12:05 You know what? 12:05 Fuck them, you know. 12:06 Fuck them at the end of the day. 12:07 Why are you laughing? 12:08 Why are you having fun of this? 12:09 I think it's funny. 12:09 I don't know. 12:10 I'm bitter. 12:11 Yeah, why? 12:11 Fuck them. 12:12 I was right all along. 12:13 And they made me feel bad about it. 12:15 That, you know, well, that's they shouldn't do that. 12:19 That's it was their loss. 12:21 It is. 12:22 And I mean that sincerely. 12:25 How do you feel about your home country of Romania? 12:29 Do you like to hate it now or something? 12:31 I mean, it's like where you're from. 12:33 No, I don't hate like anything about. 12:37 Look, I don't have anything to do it anymore. 12:38 I don't even consider it home. 12:39 This is my home right now. 12:40 Interesting. 12:41 But your home is London. 12:44 Yeah, I don't think I ever felt at home there, to be honest with you. 12:47 I know that a lot of people in London don't have that experience. 12:50 And it is often people who immigrants who appreciate. 12:56 There's like a book. 12:57 I don't remember, like a poem or something about. 13:01 Immigrants from London being the most patriotic or something about London. 13:06 I'm not thinking about London, but a point that's not really what I meant. 13:10 No, I know what it was for me was that. 13:14 I see it happened to be synchronized that when I moved to London and whatever, 13:19 my life got arranged in such a way. 13:21 And I think I pushed in that direction that I started being my own man. 13:26 And I started like owning things. 13:27 But I don't mean like I own who I am and own my position in life. 13:31 And ever since then, I started feeling like I never owned a home 13:35 because I didn't know what it was. 13:36 So that's why I feel like I couldn't feel home back then, you know. 13:39 I wouldn't feel home with myself if that makes any sense. 13:42 Anyway, this girl, enough about me. 13:44 This girl, what she does. 13:45 By the way, when you were in like fifth grade or depending where you are. 13:49 By the way, the math. 13:50 Trigonometry in fifth grade. 13:53 Dude, by the way, the mathematics. 13:54 I can solve equations in second grade. 13:56 I want to put that out there. 13:57 And that's specific of me. 14:00 But in Romania, the mathematics systems, 14:04 you learn the things you guys learn in university, 14:06 will learn them in high school, just so you know. 14:07 All right, great. 14:09 Anyway, so when you were in fifth grade 14:11 and you want to learn like what is sine and cosine, 14:14 30 degrees, 45 degrees, and all those things, right? 14:17 You know, I never managed to remember them. 14:19 Like never. 14:20 I would always have to like, you know, have the cheat sheet and whatever. 14:22 And this girl shows you a trick. 14:24 Well, I draw the triangle. 14:25 But there's a triangle. 14:28 Which, you know, it's signed SOHCAHTOA. 14:29 Like sign is opposite over hypotenuse. 14:31 So you just draw a little triangle and then you divide. 14:34 And it's easy to tell if it should be like about half or about zero. 14:37 Or about one. 14:38 Oh, interesting how you did it. 14:39 Okay. 14:40 Yeah. 14:41 But that's not a good way of remembering it. 14:44 That's like doing it out. 14:45 That's like re-deriving it. 14:46 So that's a good way of understanding what it is. 14:48 But it's not. 14:49 This thing is clever. 14:51 Yeah, she does this really interesting visual trick. 14:54 Which literally, you can't forget it once you see it. 14:56 That's how great it is. 14:57 And she's hot. 14:58 She's a smoke show. 14:59 Yeah, I don't know. 15:00 Like that's the thing is, I was thinking like, 15:03 I was kind of thinking like free market. 15:06 What was I thinking about? 15:07 I had all these thoughts in my head. 15:09 Like advertising. 15:11 And how advertising uses like good-looking people. 15:14 When they're trying to sell you like whatever. 15:18 You know, a car or something. 15:21 They have like good-looking people, you know. 15:23 Or they have whatever. 15:25 And if it's trying to sell you a vacation. 15:28 And then I was like, we do that for adults. 15:33 And then I was like, what will it be like? 15:36 Like now it's happening for children. 15:37 Like for school children or whatever. 15:39 And I was like, why did it take so long to happen? 15:42 Because they didn't have the market deciding on it. 15:44 No, you're right. 15:45 I think the market is kind of pricing the best knowledge. 15:47 And then it's pricing it even more further. 15:50 It's going to be the best knowledge with the best-looking. 15:53 That's kind of what I'm saying. 15:53 There'll be like the best explanation will rise to the top. 15:57 And then there'll be like the best delivery will then. 16:00 And the best production. 16:01 And the best eyebrows. 16:02 And the best everything you want to have. 16:03 Yeah, that's true. 16:04 Yeah. 16:04 And there will just be like a curriculum on the internet. 16:07 That is just here. 16:08 If you need to learn trigonometry, here is the playlist. 16:12 And you'll learn it in like 20 hours or something. 16:15 Or the entire semester of trigonometry. 16:17 I think you could learn trigonometry. 16:19 Like if you really put your heart into it. 16:21 In like a week, yeah. 16:21 You could. 16:22 Let's be serious. 16:23 It's not that hard, right? 16:24 Yeah, it really isn't that hard. 16:26 It's just, in fact, most of it is like when you rethink about it. 16:31 It's like if the formulas themselves are just like. 16:34 Just these descriptions of triangles over and over again. 16:36 You just teach the person the one triangle. 16:38 I have a very good story. 16:39 By the way, I'm reading this book right now. 16:41 You're Surely Joking Mr. Feynman. 16:43 Which is written by a student of him. 16:45 That was like he hanged out with him. 16:48 And he made the stories. 16:50 And I didn't finish it. 16:51 But at the beginning, roughly in the beginning. 16:53 He talks about how he's trying to learn again. 16:56 Trigonometry and sinus and cosines and all these things. 16:59 And he says that it doesn't make sense to him. 17:01 Why the fuck are they using this thing? 17:02 Because it is overexplained. 17:04 Because sine and cosine. 17:06 It didn't feel nice. 17:07 So he made it another system where it felt more natural. 17:10 Like the mathematics. 17:11 And you multiply things. 17:13 And when you write them down. 17:14 And that system was better. 17:16 In some instances, in some it wasn't, right? 17:18 Well, it is kind of strange. 17:19 Because in math, you're taught like x is this important letter. 17:23 And like y is this important letter. 17:25 And then all of a sudden, you have like function f of x. 17:28 And then all of a sudden, you got three letters, you know? 17:31 Yeah. 17:32 Like, where did that come from? 17:32 That kind of just got out of the field. 17:34 You know, now you get to the point, why isn't it just n? 17:36 Or why isn't it just s? 17:37 Why is it s-i-n? 17:39 It is kind of just like messed up. 17:41 And a lot of it was like, there was something weird. 17:45 Especially strange about it. 17:47 Oh, like the inverses are done differently. 17:50 That's the point. 17:51 Not normal inverses. 17:52 Because the tangent and the whatever. 17:54 And why is it 1 over? 17:55 Because you have arc tangent. 17:57 And you have tangent. 17:58 And then you have tan to the negative 1. 18:00 Yeah, exactly. 18:01 So it's like, it does sound like they're just like making stuff up. 18:04 It's not well thought out. 18:05 And all of it's worthless. 18:07 Because it's just this descriptions of this triangle over and over again. 18:10 There's only like one thing that's actually contains any information. 18:13 It's like the law of sines, the law of cosines. 18:16 Yeah. 18:17 Like one other thing. 18:19 Anyway, you should check out this video. 18:22 We'll have to put it. 18:23 It's kind of amazing. 18:26 Like, you know what? 18:27 Like, this gives me hope that I might find a wife of my dreams. 18:31 I want something like this. 18:32 Why? 18:33 Does this give you the hope? 18:34 Because she's hot. 18:36 And look, I don't. 18:36 Just looking at a hot woman. 18:37 That's just, that's just inspires you one day. 18:41 I want, I very rarely found. 18:43 I found a few, a few times in my life. 18:45 I got across women that are smart and hot. 18:48 And they're always thinking. 18:49 You don't actually know. 18:50 I just have to say, you don't actually know that this woman. 18:52 I think she is smart. 18:53 But you know, we don't actually know. 18:54 Because she could just be the best delivery. 18:57 You know, she'd be like the good actress. 18:59 Listen, listen to me. 19:01 I'm going to be bold right now. 19:02 And I'm going to say like, this is not going to come here. 19:05 And he's not, she's, you know, when you have those mathematical 19:08 demonstrations with triangles and some of them, you have to be 19:11 really clever to do them. 19:12 You know, when they give you sides and whatever and things like that. 19:15 She doesn't know how to do all of that. 19:17 Okay. 19:17 I know she doesn't know how to do that. 19:18 But at least she knows enough math to looks like she knows math. 19:21 Okay. 19:22 And I'll take that. 19:23 I don't want her to be. 19:24 That's what you want for your wife. 19:25 You're like, one day I'll have a really hot smart asterisk wife. 19:30 Asterisk at the bottom is she looks like she knows. 19:34 Here's the thing. 19:35 You can have a wife. 19:35 It looks like she knows high school trigonometry. 19:38 Dude, you can have a wife. 19:39 That's smart asterisks and hot. 19:42 No asterisks. 19:43 Or you can have her hot asterisks and smart no asterisks. 19:45 There's an asterisk somewhere. 19:49 There's always an asterisk somewhere. 19:51 Is that a rule? 19:52 Is that like rule number seven or something? 19:54 That's, that's Murphy's law though. 19:56 That may be a rule. 19:57 That may be one of the rules of Bitcoin. 19:59 Well, there's always an asterisk. 20:02 It's an asterisk somewhere. 20:03 Yeah. 20:04 Okay. 20:05 We'll work on that. 20:07 Should we do this drama? 20:08 Matt O'Dell versus Dan Held. 20:10 Does anyone care? 20:11 I want to address something here. 20:14 On recent shows, we made fun of Dan, what's his name, Held. 20:20 I don't really, did we? 20:22 Did we make fun of him enough for his? 20:25 Well, I noticed that you were also making some comments, 20:28 but it came to my attention this week 20:31 that you were on a podcast with him, semi-recently. 20:33 Yes. 20:34 Yeah, it was terrible. 20:35 Yeah, I didn't listen to it. 20:36 And you talked with him about, I just did, I was honest. 20:39 What do you want to say? 20:40 And you talk about fees and things like that with him? 20:43 Yes. 20:43 We have a dispute over long run fees. 20:46 Right. 20:47 And the only part I tuned into, 20:51 he's trying to tell you how people pay big fees for moving gold around. 20:54 And you're trying to say that's not true and whatever. 20:56 And then I was like, this guy sounds like two imbeciles. 20:59 And I turn it up. 21:00 I guess it could. 21:01 Well, yeah, he thinks that like it's relevant to Bitcoin transaction fees, 21:05 like how much people will pay to like close on their house or something. 21:10 I think so. 21:10 There's all these comparables. 21:12 No, it's relevant to the demand, but not to the market clearing price. 21:15 What do you mean by market? 21:17 There's rival supply. 21:19 So what I told him on the podcast, my willingness to pay for food is very high. 21:24 Correct. 21:25 It doesn't mean the market clearing price of food. 21:27 Market clearing price is the price you pay. 21:29 So there's these like graphs and things in economics. 21:32 It was like all these people are willing to pay all this. 21:34 That's the demand curve. 21:36 And then but the suppliers are willing to supply. 21:39 They how much can they make compete against each other to make a sale 21:43 so they can try to charge me, you know, $500 for a sandwich. 21:50 But if there's five sandwich places and someone else is selling it for $480. 21:56 You're not doing a good job explaining to me. 21:57 Anyway, so you're trying to say that. 21:59 Market clearing price is the price you pay. 22:01 So Dan was saying rightly that the high price shows that there's a high demand for this service. 22:11 Because the price could not possibly be high unless the demand was high. 22:15 But I'm saying the supply is moving in. 22:18 It's going to bring the price down. 22:20 Like food, food is pretty cheap in the United States. 22:24 It's relative to how much people want it. 22:27 So what you're trying to say that that is the same thing with fees. 22:30 And there's this constant supply of block space constantly coming. 22:34 And even though like everyone will need fees, 22:37 they're not going to go up so much what you're trying to say. 22:39 People might be willing to pay a lot. 22:41 But if the prevailing fee is just $5 per Bitcoin transaction, 22:46 then that's all you have to pay. 22:48 You may be secretly, you may be moving like $100 million worth of Bitcoin. 22:51 So you might be willing to pay like $1 million to get that transaction across. 22:55 Right, I don't see how this contradicts his argument. 22:57 He was probably trying, I don't know, 22:59 but he was trying to probably make the argument that people are willing to pay more. 23:02 And I'm like, yes, but no, it does contradict this argument. 23:05 Because I was saying how much, how the willingness to pay 23:12 doesn't necessarily produce a high market clearing price. 23:18 Right, and his argument was probably that actually it is 23:22 because they pay additional fees that come to doing something else. 23:28 So he concludes that this is going to happen also with Bitcoin. 23:31 Like that's what he's trying to prove. 23:32 It could happen, but I'm saying it won't happen 23:34 because there's too much block space. 23:37 There's abundant block space. 23:39 Well, block space is constant though. 23:41 Do you agree with that? 23:41 No, because this is the point. 23:43 Okay, so this is the point of when I was, 23:45 this is the point that we skipped already. 23:47 So we can go back to it. 23:49 The security budget update in my graph that I made, which is that, 23:54 but there was a, okay, let me give you this tweet. 23:57 Please answer me the first thing. 23:59 Because it just baffled me. 24:01 I said, block space is a constant supply coming in. 24:04 And you said, no, I don't understand what it means. 24:06 Because there's, it's, well, okay. 24:09 So when the BTC fees rose, 24:12 BitRefill saw that most people did not switch to Lightning. 24:15 They switched to Litecoin to pay. 24:20 So Litecoin has a kind of substitute good. 24:25 So it is a substitute in terms of the transactions. 24:30 So not in terms of being a store of value, 24:31 but in terms of making the blockchain payment. 24:38 But you can see, now you have to look at the tweet, 24:41 because you see the fees just don't go up. 24:43 My point is they don't, when they go up, 24:45 people, it's either during a bubble, 24:48 and people don't care because they're getting rich. 24:53 Or they react by not transacting or switching to. 25:00 Litecoin on these other things. So I'm saying you could just copy and paste Bitcoin forever and make a million Litecoins and make a million BTC2, BTC3. And so actually the space, it does react. The space on layer one does not, but it has substitutes. So it acts as though, as if it reacted, I have quite a few comments on this. And by the way, I'm sorry, if you're probably repeating the same thing you said in the podcast. And I also wrote a John Lennon article on this. I'm sorry if you're repeating the same thing you said in the podcast. And I also wrote a John Lennon article on this. And I also wrote a John Lennon article on this. 25:28 I saw it, but I didn't read that also. But I want to add a few comments. And maybe this is going to, you're going to start addressing things you have in your post then. 25:36 Sure. But before you do that, can you just open the tweet and look at the graph? 25:39 I know, I know the graph. 25:42 I'm just saying empirically is not, the fees don't stay up. We need that as for Bitcoin to be secure in the long run. You need the fees to be up, but they also have to be up like 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. 25:56 They need to be up like permanently, but they don't stay up. 25:59 As soon as they get like high, people just kind of give up. 26:03 Well, so the first thing I want to disagree with is like you brought up, disagree with, attack, if I may. You brought up the example of Bitrefill and whatever. 26:11 Because it was in the tweet also that I quoted this. 26:26 Anyway, so the thing with Bitrefill is that I don't know if they're that good of a representative. 26:34 Representative, that's the word. Because let me tell you what I always thought you were going to say. 26:38 There's just one of many. 26:41 Okay, continue. 26:42 So what I was going to say is that when in 2017, when I remember, by the way, when the fees went up, I thought you were going to say that actually we see a lot of people using custodial services. 26:52 That as well. 26:54 And that's what happened more. And on local Bitcoins, by the way, everyone that I knew, they would use this because it was zero fee transaction. 27:01 So I think there's more of that happening than anything else. 27:04 Same thing. That just makes it even worse. 27:07 Well, okay. 27:08 But Dan, there's a big tangent about how people love it. People love the blockchain. People love self-sovereignty. People love whatever. 27:15 Yeah, they do. And some of them do. Most of them do, but not necessarily all of them. They don't have to all the time. Anyway, okay. 27:22 So the other thing that you said is that I do think the thing is like when I'm looking at this chart you put here, the zone of unsustainability. 27:29 Yes. 27:30 I guess you're just pretty much graphing demand here, which is very correlated with a high price. And I was like, okay, that's not interesting. 27:36 Of course, there's going to be higher fees when there's the price is higher because there's more people using the Bitcoin. 27:41 But I think the lower floor of this fees is where we should focus on. Right? 27:46 No, I don't think so at all. 27:49 First of all, everything beneath $1 is just irrelevant because as far as most people are concerned, it's just nothing. 27:59 You know what I mean? There's no difference between a tenth of a penny and a penny. 28:04 But here's why I disagree though. 28:06 Do you think there's a serious difference in people's brains between a tenth of a penny and a penny? 28:10 And what about 10 cents? All that is nothing. 28:14 I think your observation on human behavior is valid, but I don't think that's the whole context. 28:19 So you look at the blockchain, right? And there's like transactions. 28:23 A big part of them are made by humans and this comes into play. 28:27 But a big, big, big part of them, more of them actually, are made by some other entity, which could be an automatic thing, which could be BitGo, which could be something that's not necessarily a human looking at sliding a thing. 28:41 No, but the human sliding the thing is, you know, that is a big, probably the big driver. 28:47 Well, we don't know that for sure, first of all. And I didn't saw any analysis of this that would conclude so. 28:53 Oh, by the way, there's this guy who writes about fees and whatever. 29:00 And he has this like really, really nice thing put out together where he tries to analyze the blockchain.info wallets. 29:06 Dude, he does it in a very, very good way. 29:08 And he uses the conclusion I'm looking at transactions that almost 30% of the transactions were made by blockchain.info wallets. 29:16 And even more to point the way they were doing the fees. 29:19 But he does a lot of analysis to reach this conclusion. 29:22 And yeah, maybe you're right now, I'm contradicting my point, because 30% of the people are using blockchain.info wallets. 29:28 And that's just one wallet of all the wallets that are known. 29:32 So I don't know, maybe he did, I don't know. 29:35 But all I'm saying is, I don't think, I really don't think it matters when it's like, 29:40 well, it's not until it gets to a dollar that people even start thinking about it. 29:43 So I think all of that beneath the dollar, just cut that part of the graph off, it doesn't even mean anything. 29:49 Yeah, I don't know. I kind of agree with you, but I also don't have any evidence that's true. 29:54 I don't have, it's not like we looked at 10,000 people and we were just like, 29:57 But just imagine it though, in your mind, imagine someone saying to themselves, 30:02 I'm buying Bitcoin because I want to be my own bank, financial sovereignty of the world. 30:06 And they say, oh no, the fee went up from one tenth of a penny to one fifth of a penny. 30:12 No one gives a shit about that at all. 30:14 Dude, listen, I'm with you, but I just feel like I would be more brave about this, stating this, 30:19 if I would see some analysis of some wallets or some transactions. 30:23 That's what I'm trying to say. 30:25 But yeah, it feels like that to me also. 30:27 Anyway, getting back on track, getting back on track to the whole fucking subject. 30:31 So what was the point of the article you were trying to, why did you update your article? 30:36 Let's go there. 30:37 Because I wanted to show that still, because we had a period recently when the fees did go up. 30:44 So when the fees go up, that makes it look as though my article may be incorrect. 30:49 So what I wanted to say was, okay. 30:51 Please express the point before anything, the point of you updating the article. 30:56 Lay that out, please. 31:00 Okay, the point of updating it with this graph was to introduce this measurement, this metric, 31:06 the consecutive days above $10 fees. 31:10 Okay. 31:11 So you see where it says seven days, 50 days, 11 days. 31:13 And the reason you, just to make it clear. 31:15 The metric is success or failure, for my idea. 31:18 Sorry, the reason you, let's just bring a bit of context with this chart because people are not going to know. 31:22 So the reason you brought this $10 up, you picked this floor of $10. 31:28 Why is it that? 31:29 That's kind of arbitrary, but I think those are like high fees. 31:32 So the fees need to be much higher than $10 on average for Bitcoin to be secure. 31:37 I don't remember the exact number calculated, but even $50 is really not quite enough. 31:45 And a very small amount compared to what we could have if we had merge mine sidechains. 31:51 So there's a Drivechain tie-in. 31:53 Sponsored by Truthcoin. 31:55 It's not the main reason, but it is a reason. 32:00 But $10 because, $10 is a round number. 32:03 Because I think, I really think like it would really need to be like $50 or like higher. 32:11 But that is like aspirational. 32:15 So it wouldn't have reached that goal yet. 32:17 But then something like $1 or $2. 32:21 I really still think most people, I mean, when you pay a credit card, it is like a $2 or $3 fee. 32:27 Let me just stop you for a second. 32:28 You're a bit all over the place. 32:29 Let's get back to, I really want you to explain. 32:32 Let's stop everything. 32:33 We have to get everything that's all over the place. 32:35 We have to bring it back. 32:39 I really want you to explain. 32:40 To one place. 32:41 No, because, sorry. 32:43 I want you to explain why did you update your article? 32:45 Why did you update? 32:46 What changed? 32:47 I want you to lay that point more than anything else. 32:49 Forget about the other dynamics. 32:51 Okay. 32:52 Well, forget about the other dynamics. 32:56 We had recently a period of high fees. 32:59 Yes. 33:00 Which my article says the problem with fees is they're not high enough. 33:04 So I wanted to say, is everything going to be good from now on? 33:09 And I say, well, probably not because it was just 11 days. 33:12 Okay. 33:13 All right. 33:14 They fell back down there. 33:17 How's that? 33:18 Did I dumb it down? 33:19 Did I dumb it down to the Bucharest public education level? 33:24 Is that, is that what they teach in fifth grade? 33:27 They teach Bitcoin in fifth grade. 33:29 They teach Bitcoin in fifth grade. 33:30 What we're learning in, what we're learning in college. 33:33 I'm not fucking. 33:35 I take offense that Romanian people are smart, more average, no more math than American people. 33:41 I don't know anything. 33:42 I don't know anything about wait. 33:45 Marcus from Romania. 33:46 No, no. 33:47 Excuse me. 33:48 I thought he was from. 33:49 He's proper. 33:50 I thought it was. 33:51 Oh yeah. 33:52 He is Romanian. 33:53 Yeah. 33:54 He's proper. 33:55 So you are. 33:56 I mean, I don't know. 33:57 I'm not as crazy as him. 33:58 I don't know any other Romanian people. 33:59 So. 34:00 Vlad Zamfir. 34:01 The Ethereum guy. 34:02 Is Vlad Zamfir really? 34:03 He's like, yeah, he is. 34:04 He is. 34:05 Zamfir is a very Romanian name now that I think about it. 34:08 Yeah. 34:11 That's like just pure. 34:12 There aren't any more Romanians. 34:13 Okay. 34:14 Anyway. 34:15 So now I think you're right though. 34:16 And I think the fees will go around $50 and whatever. 34:20 It's just obvious they will. 34:21 Right. 34:22 Because there's only. 34:23 I know, but I know, but I don't think that they, that it is obvious. 34:25 That's what I, that's the article question. 34:27 You don't think they will. 34:28 Is it obvious? 34:29 Because I think when they go up, then. 34:32 Well, it's yeah. 34:33 It's a lot of that at once. 34:35 So it's all of that at once. 34:36 So, but I think. 34:39 The fees start to go up and people start to react. 34:42 They react to it. 34:44 Okay. 34:45 So the only reason they would not is if. 34:49 It's really easy for them to use some layer two. 34:52 But even if they move to the layer two. 34:56 Still, they, they get hit with the layer one fee when they onboard to 34:59 lightning, for example, but the layer two has to work so well. 35:03 That they stay in layer two for most of their lives and only rarely 35:07 settled to layer one. 35:08 And it has to be so much activity on layer two that even with people. 35:12 Rarely settling to layer one. 35:16 Then the, the, all of that settling drives the. 35:21 Yeah. 35:23 So weird. 35:24 Do you remember when we, when we said at some point, 35:26 then we both agree on like how using addresses is going to be so like low 35:29 level shit. 35:30 I think the fees are going to be the same thing though. 35:33 Okay. 35:34 But, but that's, that's not addressing your user has to pay the fee every 35:37 time. 35:38 They don't like that. 35:39 I think they will. 35:40 I think they will. 35:41 I think if there's a, let's say right now, 35:43 let's just look at lightning because it's more comfortable and it's more, 35:47 but again, we can look at our examples. 35:49 So every time you move above a layer, 35:51 you're trading off a bit of cost for the fee for some inconvenience, 35:55 quote unquote inconvenience. Right? 35:57 So you are trying to say that you still need to have a bit, 35:59 a lot of friction up there. 36:01 That's going to slide down to the, to the first layer. 36:03 So we could feed the miners. Right. 36:05 And I don't know what, so what is about, I mean, 36:07 it's clearly that's going to happen. 36:09 Well, 36:10 the point of the article is that it would happen if with, 36:13 with merge my entire chains, there'd be plenty of fees to go around. 36:19 But without, I don't. 36:21 It's happened when, with lightning will happen. 36:23 No, but this is the thing is it hasn't already. 36:26 Well, first of all, 36:27 you need layer one bites in order to onboard to lightning because you need 36:31 to put, even just open a channel. 36:34 You need a layer one transaction. 36:35 Not necessarily though. Not necessarily. Not for all the channels. 36:38 Yes. For every real non-custodial channel. 36:41 Yes. 36:42 But there is even smart ways now where you can like give a channel to 36:44 someone and sell a channel. 36:46 It still has to get open. Fair enough. 36:47 Like it has to be a transaction somewhere. Yeah. 36:49 There's channel factories, 36:51 but then everyone in the channel factory group has to, 36:54 so that doesn't really help either. 36:56 No, you are right. 36:57 There has to be a broadcast somewhere. 36:59 Every channel has a certain capacity, like seven Bitcoin. 37:02 Yeah. 37:03 And that happened because the two people put the Bitcoin in to a 37:06 multi-city. Yes. I agree with you. 37:07 On layer one. Yes. 37:09 So you need layer one transaction to get, 37:11 even get onto the lightning network. 37:13 Yeah. But, but it's just going to be for every, 37:15 every transaction I'm just pulling out of mass for every time, 37:18 every transaction you have on chain, 37:20 there's like 10,000 transactions going on. 37:22 Well, I agree with that, but I'm just, but you understand that. 37:28 Yeah. I think that that will take, 37:30 I think there'll have to be a lot of other layers, but I think that. 37:33 It's not going to be just one layer too. I think it's obvious right now. 37:35 It's so obvious that it's not going to be just lightning or something 37:38 like that. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. 37:40 The point of the article is really that it would be okay, 37:42 but the article is just about the very various facets of that. 37:45 I feel bad. I didn't read the article right now. 37:47 It feels like I should have read it and we could have talked about it. 37:49 I know. Yeah, it's good, but we don't have, we don't, 37:53 we don't really have any, we don't have the layer. 37:56 We don't have merge my side genes. We don't have, 37:59 we only have lightning network really, which we sort of barely have. 38:02 Do you want to do a show and a separate episode when I ask you a lot of 38:07 stupid questions about emerging mining and you just answer my stupid 38:10 question because there's so many things I don't know. 38:12 And I think it's faster than me reading all your fucking shit because they 38:15 look awful. First of all, they look awful. 38:17 And maybe if that's, if it turns out other people can, can learn to it. 38:23 Maybe, I don't know. But the, I think the, the question is, 38:28 so I guess what I'm saying is if we all, 38:29 if it's just the critique in the article that I wrote was if it's only BTC 38:34 and lightning network, 38:37 then there probably will be a problem with the fees. 38:40 I disagree. I think even if the most dumbest thing, well, 38:44 not how it is right now, but look, here's the thing right now. 38:47 As much as I made fun of lightning fanboys and whatever, again, 38:50 like the thing is that even if it is just lightning and nothing else comes 38:54 because I don't know reasons it will evolve and it could probably take a big 39:00 load, not all of it, but it will take a bit. 39:02 This is what people say about Ethereum though. 39:04 No, when I say a big load, I mean, like there's going to be a thousand 39:09 dollars, sorry. 39:10 There's going to be a hundred dollars fees on chain and $10 on lightning. 39:14 That's what I'm trying to say. 39:15 Like I'm not saying like they're going to become also small. 39:17 Those are the proportions I would have in my head. 39:19 Something like that. 39:24 Anyway, all I'm saying is the graph is to sort of keep an eye. 39:28 It's like a thermometer or something. 39:31 Are the fees high enough? 39:33 Okay. 39:34 And the answer should always be no. 39:36 Always the fee should be higher. 39:38 Yeah. 39:39 Well, no, but there's something else I wanted to say. 39:43 I could have put this with the graph, but I thought it was already too much 39:46 on the graph. 39:47 But you were talking about it's not so much when the price gets higher, 39:52 but it's not so much when the price goes down. 39:55 But you were talking about it's not so much when the price gets higher, 40:00 it's there's these moments of euphoria when everyone wants to buy Bitcoin 40:04 all of a sudden. 40:05 And so the ROI on Bitcoin is like a hundred percent in a day, you know? 40:11 So people invest $5,000 in Bitcoin, it becomes $10,000. 40:14 They don't care what fee. 40:16 They don't care. 40:17 Give a shit. 40:18 They could have paid a thousand dollar fee. 40:19 They don't care. 40:21 But that describes these three periods where the fees were high. 40:26 There was bubble fees, which I think are not relevant. 40:30 Those are misleading fees. 40:32 They are not fees that people pay because they're paying 24-7 40:36 and using Bitcoin as Bitcoin uses. 40:38 That's like once a day you may be willing to pay $500 to get your dick sucked 40:42 because you won a lottery, but that's not the norm. 40:44 You're not willing to do that every day. 40:46 That's a one-off. 40:47 And maybe everyone won a lottery in December, 40:49 but that's one in December once every four years. 40:52 So calm your tits down and stop making that the norm 40:55 and making the argument that this is going to sustain Bitcoin 40:57 because that's not the norm. 40:58 That's what I mean. 40:59 Right. 41:00 That's what I was trying to say is that a lot of this stuff about fees. 41:01 My metaphor was so much better. 41:02 It was better. 41:03 But I'm just saying the bubble fees aren't representative. 41:06 So I thought about adding that to this graph, but I didn't. 41:10 I thought like, should I take out my statistics hat 41:12 and try to make some other graph that's like what the return was 41:16 in the past four days, like daily return, 41:18 so that you could see that it would be like this line of nothing 41:21 on a certain y-axis scale, 41:23 and then it would just spike during these fees, 41:26 and these fees were high. 41:28 I don't know what you just said in the last part. 41:31 Now, I think that kind of brings a more scientific argument, 41:35 but I don't think that – 41:36 I think the people who understood it are going to believe you more, 41:38 but I think the people who don't understand it 41:40 is going to confuse them more. 41:41 Yeah, that's kind of why I didn't do it 41:43 because I was like, it's a lost cause. 41:45 So the argument is something like 41:48 how competitive is layer one block space? 41:52 Like will people really pay? 41:54 Think about it. 41:55 So with Lightning, would they pay $50 to use Lightning on BTC, 42:00 or would they just use Lightning on LTC 42:04 because it will still work on LTC, 42:06 and it will cost them nothing, 42:08 and then want to be Litecoin too? 42:10 Well, this was the other thing I wanted to – 42:12 This is the thing that I wanted to wonder about. 42:14 Is it fungible? 42:16 I don't think it's – 42:17 But there's this tweet. 42:18 I know, but there's a tweet suggesting it is. 42:20 Okay, sorry. Which one? 42:22 Well, I don't know. 42:23 It's the whatever, the BitRefill one, 42:25 but I don't know if it – 42:26 Here, I'll send it to you. 42:28 I'm not saying this is handed down from God as absolute truth. 42:32 I'm just saying someone should keep an eye on this 42:36 because it's possible that a lot of people, 42:39 especially if people don't own a lot of BTC, 42:43 they just want to use it. 42:45 I know. I know, Matt. 42:47 I talked with him a few times. 42:48 Here's the thing right now. 42:49 I don't think that's true, though, 42:51 because you know what? 42:52 Every time – 42:53 So even when you move from Layer 2 to Layer 1, 42:55 there's a trade-off and a cost attached to it. 42:57 Now, because it was madness in 2017, 43:01 every cost was just not seen. 43:03 So you can't – 43:04 So as you mentioned, 43:06 the euphoria came in and made you make stupid decisions, 43:13 evaluate things wrongly. 43:14 The same thing happened when you were moving to Litecoin 43:17 because that's a cost also, by the way, 43:19 and a friction. 43:20 But as much people refuse to look at that. 43:23 So that's why I wouldn't even count that metric as being like, 43:26 oh, they went to Litecoin. 43:28 The reason they went to Litecoin – 43:29 That's true. 43:30 If you go to BTC, from BTC to Litecoin, 43:33 if it's pre-hyper-Bitcoinization, 43:35 you just go from fiat to Litecoin and then back. 43:40 No, but if the presumption is here that you want Bitcoin, 43:43 again, with each step you have a payment. 43:47 Bitcoin, fiat, Litecoin. 43:50 And then what do you do? 43:51 You buy Bitcoin? 43:52 What are you trying to say? 43:53 No, they just do whatever their payment is, 43:55 like in the darknet market or whatever with Litecoin. 43:59 Because you see, what it implies is that 44:00 if the block space really is fungible, 44:04 and the fees really won't rise, 44:08 it is really good news for the people who prefer large blocks. 44:12 So that's another reason why it is ominous. 44:15 I don't think it's fungible. 44:16 There's no way it's fungible. 44:18 It's the same way as like – 44:19 But it's on a continuum. 44:21 That's what I'm trying to say. 44:22 It's on a continuum, 44:23 and it's not as though people will pay. 44:26 We don't know. 44:27 Will everyone think about it? 44:28 There's thousands of transactions per block, 44:30 and there's one block every 10 minutes. 44:33 So obviously there are a lot of people in the world, 44:35 but there's a thousand blocks a week. 44:37 There's one block every 10 minutes. 44:41 There's thousands of transactions per block. 44:43 So there's a lot of block space. 44:45 I get your point, Drew. 44:47 Will every single person in there on average be paying $50? 44:53 Maybe. 44:55 But maybe they'll just go down the street to think, 44:57 if they pay $50, will they pay $100? 45:00 Will they pay $200? 45:02 That's what I'm trying to figure out. 45:04 Where will they stop paying? 45:07 I think the analogy is like, 45:09 you can have two pair of boots. 45:12 One that are made out of rubber, 45:14 and one that are made out of cardboard, 45:15 but they're painted, 45:16 and you can't distinguish them for each other. 45:18 Now the thing is like – 45:20 No, I agree that Litecoins are worse than BTC. 45:23 I agree with that. 45:24 So one of them, they look the same. 45:26 Now if one of them is cheaper. 45:28 Now if you walk outside and there's no rain outside, 45:31 there's no problem. 45:33 So it's going to be fine. 45:34 But as soon as there's a little rain, 45:36 it's obviously going to get exposed, 45:38 and you're going to be like, 45:39 oh shit, I should have paid for the other ones. 45:41 So that's how it's the block space. 45:43 I don't think it's fungible. 45:44 I think if you think it's fungible, 45:46 you're clearly not analyzing properly or something, right? 45:49 I don't think it's completely fungible. 45:51 I don't think it's – 45:53 With Litecoin, you still have your keys. 45:56 It's still not your keys, not your coins. 45:58 But one second. 46:00 There's still anonymity. 46:03 It actually has a lot of the features. 46:05 It's the same code, basically. 46:07 It's just a patch set that just runs on top of it. 46:09 Do you remember the conversation we had last time, 46:11 and we couldn't articulate it, 46:13 but we both thought it was interesting that Bitcoin was Bitcoin 46:16 just because it was first and it's Bitcoin? 46:18 Yes. 46:19 If somehow I would have managed to articulate that, 46:21 maybe now that would have served as a good argument. 46:24 Yeah, I agree about – 46:26 I'm just talking about with payments. 46:28 So I'm not talking about demand for using it as a settlement 46:32 or a store of value or anything like that. 46:34 Because using it as a store of value 46:36 doesn't generate transaction fees for miners. 46:38 You're right. 46:40 So let's think of a few scenarios 46:41 where you would want to use it as payment. 46:43 So you have some Bitcoin from a long time, 46:45 and now you want to use it because it's worth a lot. 46:48 Well, if you're going to do that, 46:50 you're probably – even if the fees are high, 46:51 you might end up still paying with Bitcoin 46:53 because you don't want to convert and back and forth. 46:56 A lot of people will be rich because of Bitcoin. 46:59 They won't care about any expenses. 47:01 So it goes back to our argument. 47:03 Okay, so then another scenario would be that 47:05 somehow someone has fiat. 47:07 They need to make a payment with a cryptocurrency. 47:09 And the thing is there's the same fee 47:12 when you try to get in cryptocurrency land, 47:15 with Bitcoin and Litecoin, let's say. 47:17 No, it would be different. 47:19 Right? Don't you mean? 47:21 Oh, you mean like the Coinbase fee or something? 47:23 No, I mean when you buy. 47:24 When you're buying from an exchange, 47:26 it should be roughly the same, right? 47:28 Sure, yeah. 47:29 And then the problem is going to be – 47:30 I mean, it really shouldn't though 47:31 because they have to transfer it to you. 47:32 So it's one transaction fee. 47:34 It should still be cheaper to buy 47:37 whichever one has the lowest Layer 1 fee, right? 47:40 So then you would think that it would get to the point 47:42 where like who has the lower Layer 1 fee 47:44 is going to be more expensive on buying it. 47:46 No, I just think that – 47:49 I think there's some competition. 47:52 So let's say you're trying to buy something. 47:55 You're trying to buy whatever. 47:58 You are trying to buy heroin 48:00 and you live in the United States 48:02 and you can either go BTC. 48:05 Yeah, exactly. 48:06 And you go BTC and it's whatever, 48:09 $50 to get the BTC, $50 to send the BTC. 48:12 It's $100. 48:14 It's $100 of heroin that you could – 48:17 $100 more that you could have 48:18 if you did the same thing with something else. 48:21 And so I think the $50 is not – 48:24 it's not like – 48:25 I don't know what the number is. 48:27 I'm just saying when the fees – 48:28 I'm just saying $10 is a number 48:29 where people start to say, 48:31 I'm kind of annoyed by this. 48:33 Before that, they would maybe not say – 48:34 if you really account for all the time 48:36 they would have to spend 48:37 researching wallets and things. 48:39 Below that, people would say, 48:41 okay, $10, I'm already in for a penny, 48:44 I'm in for a pound as they say. 48:48 Look, listen, there's no disagreement. 48:50 Your point is very valid. 48:51 The disagreement is that in the Fed, 48:52 if you think they will go to Litecoin 48:54 and whatever, and I think they won't. 48:55 That's what we're discussing right now. 48:57 Well, I think it's possible. 48:59 I mean, I think – 49:00 I certainly think eventually, 49:02 what if it were like $3,000 49:04 for Bitcoin transaction 49:06 and $0 for Litecoin transaction? 49:08 Eventually, they would. 49:09 People are right. 49:10 You're such a fucking shit coiner anyway. 49:13 Yeah, well, that's why this article 49:14 was very controversial. 49:15 Although a lot of people misinterpreted it 49:17 as saying these are too high, 49:19 which is funny because it's the opposite 49:20 of what it said. 49:21 I think they were pretty reasonable things. 49:23 If they were the same things 49:24 that you said here, 49:25 I don't think they were that outrageous 49:26 or anything. 49:27 Yeah, so that was all about Dan Held, 49:29 the thing that I had with Dan Held. 49:30 So this was all Dan Held's tangent. 49:32 Yeah, that's how to start out. 49:34 So – 49:36 I know there's a point in the podcast 49:39 where you say, 49:40 my friend, I just explained to you 49:43 that you use the expression, 49:44 my friend, a lot when you get annoyed. 49:46 I know. 49:47 I guess so. 49:48 Oh, but there's something 49:49 that kind of inspired me 49:51 to even do this podcast with you 49:53 at all in the first place, 49:54 which is I was talking 49:56 and at the end he says something like, 50:00 yeah, he's like, I work for Kraken, I do BizDev. And he said something like, I do most of my work on Twitter. And I was just stunned by this sentence. And I just think it's crazy. I mean, maybe, I don't know. It's like, what if you have a college student and they were like, this is back when they had libraries, kids, now there's only Zoom. 50:26 But kids would be like, oh, I do most of my work in the library or something like I do most of my work in the dorm. I do most of my work in the engineering quad or whatever, you know, where the students do their work. 50:38 And one of the students says something like, I do most of my work in the cocaine factory. I was like, work on Twitter? I was like, Twitter, like the fake place of illusions and brainwashing. 50:53 As funny. 50:56 I just think like, that's a good job. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? That was like, that was so that type of thing. 51:06 As funny as your joke was with the cocaine factory, I think you're so dead wrong on this one. 51:12 I guess so. I guess so. 51:13 Dude, look, listen. 51:14 But that was like, it opened my eyes to this world that people can do a job on Twitter that's not like the, you know, 25 year old social media manager that you do like a little bit. And it's not like the Donald Trump cleverly crafted like campaign, subversive campaign. 51:34 Won't come back to reality. Yeah, it is. It's one of the most important things. The other thing, you can have your social media game better and have a fictitious product, and that's going to work out better than having the best product and whatever. 51:45 But anyway. 51:46 Yeah, so that was shocking to me. And that someone would even say it out loud. 51:50 But the thing is like, that's the most wanted skill right now. It's more, you know how people say learn to code? It's like, get the fuck out of here. Anyone can learn to code. 51:57 I guess so. 51:58 That's a harder skill. Because coding, here's the thing right now. If you put enough time, anyone can learn C. Literally anyone almost on the planet can learn C, right? 52:06 I don't know about that. 52:07 Oh, come on. Anyway, but the thing is like to learn the social media thing, it's too new. It's changing so fast. There's no book. Literally, you have to like do your own thing and learn on the spot and figure out your own metrics and your own measurements and everything. 52:20 There's some tools, but the good ones are not like that, right? So that's the thing. Like that's the craziest thing. And those are the people who are going to – it is about evaluating information. That's a big part of life though. It's evaluating reality and acting on your evaluation. 52:35 Life tips from Alex. 52:37 Come on. I'm serious. 52:39 Big part of life. Evaluating reality. 52:41 No, there's two main things in leading a fulfilling life however you define it is evaluating reality and acting on those evaluations accordingly. 52:50 Well, that's the same thing on Twitter is evaluating what's happening and then acting on them or making other people. No, that doesn't make sense. 52:56 Sure. 52:57 Anyway. 52:58 Having a yellow shirt. Having one yellow shirt. 53:00 I have 21 yellow shirts. That's besides the point. 53:04 And five guitars. 53:06 I only have three guitars left right now. 53:08 Oh, really? It's down to three. 53:10 I'm going to be down to two or one I think. 53:12 Two or one. That's amazing. And are you going to become a Tibetan monk and just have nothing and just meditate on the side of a mountain? 53:20 No, but I only want to have things that I use them every day. 53:25 Did I tell you this joke already that – because my father was into this kind of stuff so we got him a Christmas card once and it was a – did I tell this joke already? 53:33 No, go on. 53:34 I hate telling the same joke. 53:35 No, go on. I've heard it. 53:36 And it's like a Tibetan – they're like Tibetan Buddhist monks and they have a big box with a bow like a Christmas present. 53:41 He opens it, the box, and it's like just what I always wanted, nothing. 53:52 I appreciate that to be funny because if you meditate, it looks like that from the exterior. 53:56 It kind of is like that but you have to do it to realize it's not about that. 54:00 So that's why I appreciate the joke. 54:03 I don't know, man. 54:04 There you go. 54:05 I'm not – I told you I really want to – I want to lose all my baggages, all of them, dude, most of them. 54:11 If I lose all of them, I'm totally dead. 54:13 But I want to be a bit more – I feel I'm not creative and artistic as I used to be. 54:18 You know what the thing is like when I used to – dude, listen. 54:21 When I smoked weed the first time, it felt like it made so much sense and I smoked a lot of it. 54:28 And I've never – you know like a lot of – 54:29 Do you think that's just the making sense brain sort of being short-circuited? 54:34 No, I don't know. 54:35 The thing is like – so I took a puff. 54:37 Because that's the thing about marijuana is people do marijuana and then they think – 54:40 they're sitting on a couch but they think that they're doing the most important thing in the world. 54:45 No, that's not what it was. 54:46 What I liked it was like – so I got drunk a lot of times and I liked that. 54:51 But as soon as I took that puff, I took a big one and it hit me like fairly fast. 54:55 And as soon as the high started going in my head and how much – 54:58 I could literally feel my brain changing in my perspective. 55:01 I knew from – like in those probably was a few seconds. 55:04 I don't know. 55:05 It felt like an instance, right? 55:06 Oh, I get this. 55:07 I'm going to like it right now. 55:09 And the thing is like I did it a lot. 55:11 I did it a lot. 55:12 And I would – I never had a panic attack or a bad experience. 55:15 Dude, ever for like four years or something like that, right? 55:17 And always – every people I ever smoked with – I even smoked weed with hundreds of people. 55:22 They always have this problem where like sometimes they would get some form of panic or some weird thing. 55:26 I've never had it. 55:27 And I thought about it and I've had some after I moved to London, by the way, 55:31 because life got a bit more real. 55:33 And I realized the reason I've never used to have those things is because I never had any baggage. 55:37 Literally, no baggage. 55:38 I didn't care about anything. 55:39 Like I didn't own any positions. 55:40 I always lived out of a backpack even when I had a lot of money. 55:43 And I didn't have anything to worry. 55:45 I literally did everything I wanted every day and I didn't have to worry about anything. 55:48 And I want to see if I could go back to that state. 55:51 That's why. 55:52 And positions is the first thing I have to let go of. 55:54 So, yeah. 55:56 That's why. 55:57 Yeah, but then you have to let go of the podcast paradox. 56:01 No, it's not. 56:03 The podcast is not a position. 56:05 What about the microphone? 56:07 No, but there's a rule. 56:09 If there's an object that I use every day or that allows me to abstract somehow or communicate my ideas, it gets to stay. 56:16 That's why a guitar will stay. 56:18 But not all of them because I don't need all of them. 56:21 Yeah, but you're going to be on Twitter though. 56:24 I want to be like, dude, listen. 56:26 My purpose right now is to work on Twitter myself. 56:30 I know. 56:31 It's horrifying. 56:32 Well, it seemed that Dan lost this particular Twitter battle to Matt Odell in the court of public opinion as measured by Twitter likes. 56:41 As measured by people who listen to Odell's podcast. 56:45 By Twitter likes. 56:47 I'm trying to find a tweet. 56:48 Okay, here it is. 56:49 Yeah, it's at the bottom. 56:52 So it was slightly dramatic. 56:54 So basically let me explain it now for people because I made some notes. 56:57 So the struggle of Bitcoin, let me just give you some random background thoughts of mine so you can just ignore them when I get to the real explanation. 57:07 But like every Bitcoin company has a lower return on investment than just holding BTC. 57:15 So the question is, isn't everything else just a scam? 57:18 And the answer is probably yes. 57:20 Some people say, what about the exchanges? 57:23 They made a lot of money. 57:24 But, you know, the exchanges will ultimately, if there's hyper-Bitcoinization, the exchanges will be worthless. 57:30 And then BTC price will have appreciated more than the exchanges. 57:35 So it's possible that even investing in exchanges is a scam. 57:39 It's possible that everything other than just owning Bitcoin is a giant scam once you become red pilled by Bitcoin. 57:47 That's dumb. That makes zero sense. 57:49 I'm just saying that's just an idea that some people have, including me. 57:53 Okay, that's idiotic though. 57:55 But so related to that is Matt's podcast takes money from Cash App, which is, I mean, it does KYC because everyone does it. 58:06 So that's kind of what happened basically. 58:08 So therefore, Dan Held felt compelled to weigh in because everyone wanted to know his opinion. 58:16 And he said that Matt is a hypocrite. 58:18 And then Matt said that he's a shameless piece of trash, basically. 58:24 And then that happened. 58:26 And then everyone weighed in by liking one tweet or the other. 58:30 Well, you know what the thing is, first of all, clearly Dan was unprepared here. 58:36 And he never listened to the podcast because Matt said that like literally hundreds of times on the podcast. 58:41 So that was a bet. He was presumptuous. 58:44 Now, second of all, I think a lot of people just hate Dan Held because they hate him. 58:50 Because again, I don't want to have Matt who goes like, I don't want to do a bad Matt Odell in person. 58:56 But he's very like, he sounds very unsure of himself. 58:58 He's like, he just was born now. 59:00 That's how he sounds like. 59:01 And Marty Bentz always sounds like he came back from a drug. 59:04 He literally always – you can breathe in really hard, dude. 59:08 That's the thing. It's like, dude, what the fuck is happening with you, motherfucker? 59:11 That guy is one of the most unsure guys in the world. 59:14 Matt Odell sounds like he just broke a glass and didn't know where the cleaning supplies are. 59:19 Well, it's funny. What you see is the stay humble. 59:22 I think a lot of people like the stay humble whatever motif. 59:27 Let me make this very clear. 59:29 Staying humble is for fucking losers. 59:32 What? Really? I'm surprised you say that. 59:34 I actually like it a lot. 59:35 There you go. Prove my fucking point. 59:37 Prove my point. There you go. 59:39 I guess so. 59:40 Here's my problem with it, like serious, on a serious note. 59:43 I think it makes sense sometimes to be humble. 59:45 And sometimes, again, you could even be gracious. 59:48 And it's just good to do it for yourself. 59:50 Oh, I see. 59:51 I'm necessarily proud of that. 59:52 But, but, but. 59:53 But what about the Nietzschean call to greatness? 59:56 One second right now. 59:58 That's what you're going to say right now, right? 59:59 No, no, no. What I'm going to say is that, dude. 1:00:01 If you, so like if you are Michael Jordan right now. 1:00:06 And there's some other people who are not Michael Jordan. 1:00:08 And they feel bad because they're shit at basketball. 1:00:11 And that's life. There's nothing wrong with them. 1:00:12 They're just shit at basketball. 1:00:13 And you're being humble just to comfort these people. 1:00:16 That's bad. 1:00:17 Because you're Michael Jordan. 1:00:18 You should be Michael Jordan. 1:00:19 I don't think it is a patronizing humility though. 1:00:23 No, it's not patronizing. 1:00:24 But it is a bit subversive and not honest. 1:00:27 That's what I'm trying to say. 1:00:28 That could be true. 1:00:29 But I don't think it's necessarily true either. 1:00:31 Because basketball, it's obvious like who is the best player. 1:00:36 If you just play, it's not obvious. 1:00:38 But there is a metric like points scored per game. 1:00:41 Whereas reality is very complicated. 1:00:43 You know, Bitcoin could crash to zero tomorrow. 1:00:45 Look, you're right. You're right. You're right. 1:00:47 Fair enough. Maybe that's a bad idea. 1:00:49 But the reason why I don't like humility is because. 1:00:51 So I see like two ways of going about this situation. 1:00:55 I could be very humble. 1:00:56 And some people might be like, oh, he's a humble guy. 1:01:00 But because I was humble and I didn't have the arrogance, 1:01:03 I didn't push far enough and I couldn't elevate myself. 1:01:05 Or I could be arrogant. 1:01:07 And some people are going to hate me, but I won. 1:01:10 So, fuck you guys, but I don't know who you are. 1:01:12 No, but I think that is a true thing. 1:01:15 There is this old, super old, like there is a Nietzschean thing about like master and slave morality. 1:01:22 Are you familiar with this? 1:01:23 No. 1:01:25 Is this a sex game or something like that? 1:01:26 No, unfortunately, we have a point about that later. 1:01:29 So we'll get to that too. 1:01:30 Stay tuned. 1:01:32 And as last time, the Bitcoin sex education is brought to you by DriveChains. 1:01:37 Paul Sztorc, known expert. 1:01:39 Please continue with your point. 1:01:43 No, it's like there is a morality of. 1:01:48 Well, God, like anyone who ever tries to explain Nietzsche is really like, you know, you're going out on a limb. 1:01:54 I'll try. 1:01:55 Let me explain Nietzsche to you. 1:01:57 No, God is dead. 1:01:58 Go have orgies. 1:01:59 Done. 1:02:00 That's Nietzsche for you. 1:02:01 Something like that. 1:02:02 So, well, he has a critique of Christianity that says it's about how to be a good servant and a good member of the community. 1:02:06 And that it's about obeying and being humble. 1:02:11 So you could say that Matt O'Dell is humility, Christian humility. 1:02:16 Thing. 1:02:17 Okay. 1:02:18 So that's the slave. 1:02:19 The master slave. 1:02:20 It has no. 1:02:21 When he wrote it, it had not. 1:02:22 I don't know. 1:02:23 I don't think he was trying to start anything. 1:02:24 No. 1:02:25 But he is. 1:02:26 The master thing is more like ancient Rome. 1:02:29 And just like you're going to conquer because you're the best. 1:02:32 And then you're going to build your roads into their country because your roads are the best. 1:02:37 And your education is the best. 1:02:38 And your sanitation is the best. 1:02:39 And you're just going to, your gods are the best. 1:02:41 And you're just going to, you, that's it. 1:02:43 And it's just guys, you know, it's just guys with swords who are just going to kill everyone. 1:02:49 And then you're going to take whatever you want, you know, and that's like, you know, the master of morality. 1:02:57 I'm sure maybe we'll get, I'll get a telegram messages from people who know more about what that is. 1:03:03 But you're kind of on that wavelength. 1:03:07 So maybe you should look that up. 1:03:08 I definitely am on it. 1:03:10 There's another thing like, there's like a Rick. 1:03:14 Okay. 1:03:15 So you do, you must like the Rick and Morty show. 1:03:17 A hundred percent. 1:03:18 Yeah. 1:03:19 Because it's along these lines that Rick Sanchez is sort of. 1:03:22 Yeah, exactly. 1:03:23 He has a boldness and he's not afraid of who he is and he's going to destroy something if it's in his way. 1:03:28 And there's a critique, the foil of his character is the dad who is unsure of himself and he has no confidence and he's a failure. 1:03:38 Right. 1:03:39 Well, you know what? 1:03:40 The thing is like, by the way, if you talk more than 10 seconds with me, you already know that's like, like, that's what I am. 1:03:46 I'm probably going to yell. 1:03:47 And it's like, no, no, no. 1:03:48 This is this. 1:03:49 We go for it. 1:03:50 Done. 1:03:51 No, no, no, no. 1:03:52 Sorry. 1:03:53 And here's the honest truth. 1:03:54 I wasn't always like that. 1:03:55 I mean, I was so shy in the first part of my life. 1:03:58 I was super, super, super shy. 1:04:00 And I was so scared. 1:04:02 And I was, I was brought up by my mom and my dad and my grandma in this very Christian way. 1:04:06 And I was very much like that with humble. 1:04:08 No, no one is whatever. 1:04:10 And like, I just, one day I realized this doesn't give any results and it's stupid. 1:04:15 And it's, it's theoretical knowledge that has, it's folklore. 1:04:19 It doesn't have any value. 1:04:22 So I purposely tried to look every time at things for what they are. 1:04:25 And it just gives better results not to be humble. 1:04:27 Because what do you want? 1:04:28 Here's the thing right now. 1:04:29 Do you want some people who are never going to meet you in your life to nudge your head at you? 1:04:33 Or do you want to get something done? 1:04:35 Whatever it is. 1:04:36 Well, you're going to piss off people when you get something done. 1:04:38 So you can't worry about these people. 1:04:40 Because I wouldn't mind if you worry. 1:04:42 I would worry about what you think about me. 1:04:44 But I can't worry about what some other people think about me. 1:04:47 I don't know. 1:04:48 Because it's just getting in my way and getting me nothing in return. 1:04:50 Literally nothing. 1:04:51 So I can't do that. 1:04:53 That's clearly a bad way to go about life. 1:04:56 It depends sometimes on if you live in a sort of static environment or a changing one. 1:05:06 If the environment you're in doesn't change that much, then it is maybe better to just be more deferential. 1:05:12 Because most changes might not be improvements. 1:05:16 I don't even see it like that. 1:05:18 It's agnostic of the environment. 1:05:20 I think it's very simple, dude. 1:05:22 There are two types of people in this world. 1:05:25 And there seems to be this duality of reality. 1:05:28 In life, you're either a slinging dick or a limp dicking. 1:05:31 That's how it is. 1:05:32 That's just how life is. 1:05:34 And it's very simple. 1:05:35 Some people try to sling dick. 1:05:36 And out of these, some do it. 1:05:38 And some don't. 1:05:39 And there's nothing wrong with all of them. 1:05:41 Even though I use the same thing. 1:05:43 But it's a choice. 1:05:45 If you want to sling dick, you have to employ this attitude. 1:05:50 You will never sling dick with this attitude. 1:05:52 I'm sure there are people who rationalize it. 1:05:53 But no, you're not. 1:05:55 Michael Jordan. 1:05:56 Just watch that fucking documentary. 1:05:57 And you can watch someone that goes through his life. 1:06:00 And he realized that was a thing. 1:06:03 But you need to be like a feral animal. 1:06:05 And every second, like get in this mode. 1:06:07 Because every time you're not, you're getting distancing away from this thing that you're trying to do. 1:06:12 So I don't know what's so unclear for people. 1:06:14 I don't know why the fuck people tweet things like this. 1:06:16 It's stupid if you ask me. 1:06:17 So, yeah. 1:06:19 There you go. 1:06:21 Definitely, I think I agree like that if when every graduate student working in science, 1:06:27 every entrepreneur thinks that there's something wrong with the way the current business world works. 1:06:31 And they can take inputs and make better output, get a higher return on investment. 1:06:36 Every graduate student thinks there's something wrong with what the textbooks say. 1:06:41 They're trying to find that big idea that will cause the textbooks to be rewritten. 1:06:45 And every artist says that there's different art that people should experience. 1:06:51 All the existing art isn't as good. 1:06:53 So there's an inherent arrogance to creation. 1:06:57 100% there is. 1:06:59 I think that's a end to progress. 1:07:02 Because every progress is a change. 1:07:04 You know what, I really like the documentary. 1:07:06 So I agree with all that. 1:07:08 What's the problem? 1:07:10 Maybe I think it's more just a warning. 1:07:13 Stay humble is a warning that says, look, we're all making a lot of money here. 1:07:18 But don't fool yourself because you're the easiest person to fool. 1:07:22 Quote from... 1:07:24 Look, listen. 1:07:26 This is like when I got you with Jimi Hendrix before. 1:07:28 I don't know who it's from. 1:07:31 Michael Jordan. 1:07:34 Richard Feynman. 1:07:35 It's Feynman quote. 1:07:36 God damn it. 1:07:37 God damn it. 1:07:39 Anyway. 1:07:40 Don't be fooled. 1:07:41 And you're the easiest person to fool. 1:07:44 Here's the thing right now. 1:07:46 Richard Feynman himself had also arrogance. 1:07:48 Here's what you don't understand. 1:07:50 If you are honest with yourself, if you are really honest... 1:07:53 But wasn't that also humble? 1:07:56 I don't know. 1:07:57 But let's just move on. 1:07:58 Forget about Feynman. 1:07:59 Here's the thing right now. 1:08:00 If you're really honest with yourself, really like a real honest person in any situation, 1:08:04 you don't need to force yourself to be humble. 1:08:06 Because when you're going too much, you're going to be like, 1:08:08 hey, I'm an idiot. 1:08:09 Come back. 1:08:10 Most of the people lie to themselves constantly. 1:08:12 Lie over lie over lie over lie. 1:08:15 And at some point, they even lie to themselves and they inflate themselves. 1:08:18 Because they're not truthful with themselves. 1:08:20 That's why they need the humbleness to calm them down. 1:08:22 But if you're honest... 1:08:23 It's not like Michael Jordan would have ever went like, 1:08:25 I had a bad gimme. 1:08:26 He's going to be like, no. 1:08:28 You have to be realistic about it. 1:08:29 So that's why, again, I feel there's something wrong about it. 1:08:33 I think there's something to your philosophy, but I don't think it's fully... 1:08:36 It's half-baked to me. 1:08:37 Fair enough. 1:08:38 But let me tell you what's my thing on arrogance, though. 1:08:41 You know what's really great about guitar playing, man? 1:08:44 That even Jimi Hendrix, even Joe Bonamassa, everyone, 1:08:48 everyone who ever started playing guitar started the same amount. 1:08:51 It's in the same way. 1:08:52 They were in their room. 1:08:54 They had a big fucking dream. 1:08:56 And one day, they hope they're going to play their guitar. 1:08:58 Now, here's the thing right now. 1:08:59 When you look at a guitar instrument, it's a very weird thing. 1:09:02 It's using strings to vibrate. 1:09:04 And you're going to convince your parents to buy this from you, 1:09:08 which probably is a lot of money because you're a kid and whatever. 1:09:10 And you are saying, this alien thing that doesn't make any sense and makes sounds, 1:09:15 I'm going to master it. 1:09:17 That's what you're saying when you say, I'm going to pick up a guitar. 1:09:20 That takes arrogance because it's the same as saying, I'm going to juggle. 1:09:23 It's the same as saying, I'm going to learn differential equations. 1:09:25 It takes a certain arrogance. 1:09:27 It's the same when you say, I'm going to start reading. 1:09:28 It's the same when you're saying, you're going to fuck a girl. 1:09:30 I'm going to go and get that girl home with me. 1:09:32 It takes arrogance. 1:09:34 And most of the time, you're right. 1:09:36 That arrogance is going to be crushed down. 1:09:38 But you need this arrogance. 1:09:39 You need to fool who you are right now just a bit so you can get that person. 1:09:44 So that's why I think arrogance is necessary. 1:09:46 And you're right. 1:09:47 A lot of the time, you could do stupid things without arrogance. 1:09:50 Everyone did that. 1:09:51 But, again, if you're an honest person with yourself, you should never worry about it 1:09:54 because you're going to be honest. 1:09:55 You're going to be like, okay, I got a sidetrack. 1:09:58 So that's why when I hear someone say combo, it's like, go fuck yourself, dude. 1:10:01 Maybe there's that fucking guy who if he would have had this light, this arrogance himself, 1:10:05 he would have been Jimi Hendrix. 1:10:06 Fuck you. 1:10:07 I don't care about if other people feel bad. 1:10:08 I don't care about all this fucking shit. 1:10:10 I care about the Jimi motherfucking Hendrix guy. 1:10:12 He shouldn't hear those words. 1:10:14 But the truth is that the Jimi Hendrix, he knows already this. 1:10:17 And when he hears those words, he would just fold them away. 1:10:19 So maybe you're not doing any harm to anyone. 1:10:21 I don't know. 1:10:23 I just have an allergic reaction to this combo-ness. 1:10:25 Tie that into a little knot, didn't you? 1:10:27 Because the truly arrogant people would not even listen to you. 1:10:31 Yeah, that's true. 1:10:33 Just making it a moot point. 1:10:35 But yeah, would you ever be arrogant enough to sell a $200 piece of plastic with your name on it? 1:10:41 My comment when he did that. 1:10:44 You know what? 1:10:45 What did he say? 1:10:46 What was the comment? 1:10:48 My comment was, if Kevin Kline can put his name on the underwear, so can that help? 1:10:56 That's like what it is. 1:10:57 That's an apt description. 1:10:59 Look, I'll be honest with you. 1:11:02 And you know what? 1:11:03 Now we're really going to get hate mail. 1:11:05 I like that help more than I like fucking Matt Odell. 1:11:07 Really? 1:11:08 That's crazy to me. 1:11:09 I do. 1:11:10 Because let me tell you. 1:11:11 We won't get hate mail because I don't agree with you at all. 1:11:16 Only you'll get the hate mail. 1:11:17 Yeah, I'm going to get hate mail. 1:11:18 Here's the thing right now. 1:11:19 If you would ask me who would you want to go out and have a beer with and talk about Bitcoin, I'd rather go with Dan Hale. 1:11:25 What? 1:11:26 I'm serious. 1:11:27 I would. 1:11:28 Because I can't. 1:11:29 It's crazy. 1:11:30 It's a personality thing. 1:11:31 I can't get along with people who are just very mousy like. 1:11:35 I don't know. 1:11:36 That's how it feels to me. 1:11:37 It feels like they don't want to take a stance. 1:11:39 The only thing they take a stance on hard is shit coins. 1:11:42 They're bad. 1:11:43 But they never take a stance on anything. 1:11:45 What about like, you know, that's not really true. 1:11:47 But by the KYC, you said it yourself earlier. 1:11:49 Okay. 1:11:50 I got a bit. 1:11:51 You know what? 1:11:52 Privacy, notes, wallets and things. 1:11:53 They take a lot of stance on it. 1:11:54 Teaching people about what they're doing. 1:11:56 So. 1:11:57 I'm an idiot and I got a bit excited. 1:11:59 Fair enough. 1:12:00 My point. 1:12:01 You got a little bit excited. 1:12:02 But I just like Matt. 1:12:03 I still like him. 1:12:04 No, because if you would have the beer, then he would open up more and be more like what you like. 1:12:08 I just like Dan Hale more. 1:12:09 I'm sorry. 1:12:10 That's crazy to me. 1:12:11 Personality-wise, I like him more. 1:12:12 Because he's more like me. 1:12:13 You know? 1:12:14 And he doesn't have these stupid ideologies and he doesn't try to please anyone. 1:12:19 He does. 1:12:20 You have to sell. 1:12:21 Yeah. 1:12:22 You have to sell something that's even more ridiculous than his thing. 1:12:26 You have to sell a $400 piece of paper, a sticker to put on your note. 1:12:33 The Alex sticker. 1:12:36 It's canary yellow. 1:12:38 No, I like it. 1:12:41 Here's the thing, Paul. 1:12:42 I sold a lot of things in my life. 1:12:44 Because I – again, I was always put in a situation. 1:12:47 I sold a lot of things. 1:12:49 And I sold a lot of Bitcoin most of the time. 1:12:52 But never ever in my life I looked at something and I feel like this is a napkin, a piece of shit, and I want to sell it. 1:12:59 Because I don't think I could sell something like that. 1:13:01 And again, I'm not a good salesman, by the way. 1:13:03 I just try really hard. 1:13:04 That's what it is. 1:13:05 I'm not a master for this. 1:13:06 But the thing is like I could never get myself to sell something because I get excited very quickly about things. 1:13:10 And I'm like this is the greatest thing. 1:13:12 And I can't sell that. 1:13:13 So if I get the conclusion that this T-shirt makes your life better, I'm going to start yelling about it. 1:13:17 I'm going to try to sell it. 1:13:18 But it's not. 1:13:19 It's just a fucking T-shirt that I chose y'all because of some reasons. 1:13:23 Not the greatest thing in the world. 1:13:24 Don't necessarily do this. 1:13:25 It's not that great. 1:13:26 So I can't sell something like that. 1:13:28 I would never sell that. 1:13:29 There you go. 1:13:30 But you think that – okay. 1:13:31 You know I can understand your point of view slightly. 1:13:34 Okay. 1:13:36 That's crazy. 1:13:37 What's crazy? 1:13:39 It's just – I don't know. 1:13:40 So you like Matt O'Dell more than Dan Held? 1:13:43 Yes. 1:13:44 Why? 1:13:45 I think – I understand what you're saying and that you've got to believe in yourself. 1:13:51 Right. 1:13:52 You know? 1:13:53 I can practically hear like I believe I can fly playing in the background when you talk. 1:13:59 And, you know. 1:14:04 But I do – I am more worried about the fooling yourself problem. 1:14:12 And yeah, I'm really worried about like cognitive bias and that type of thing. 1:14:17 I don't want to be fooling myself. 1:14:19 I want to not be fooled. 1:14:21 Especially by myself. 1:14:23 I mean what a betrayal. 1:14:25 This is the thing, man. 1:14:27 And yeah, I think that's selling the Node case for that much money and it just has a name on it. 1:14:36 That is a kind of sociopathic narcissism. 1:14:39 Paul, I don't know about the fucking Node thing. 1:14:42 I think it's a bit nutty. 1:14:43 But regarding the fooling yourself thing, that's what I meant by the prodigal son, dude. 1:14:48 Sometimes when you – 1:14:50 I did not understand that at all. 1:14:51 So when you – 1:14:53 We got a lot of messages about that. 1:14:54 That was very popular. 1:14:55 Maybe you should explain it again. 1:14:57 You go – the son who leaves. 1:15:00 The son who leaves is going to the underworld or something. 1:15:02 So, OK. Let me explain it again. So the prodigal son. 1:15:08 The fable of the prodigal son adopted by Alex Waltz. 1:15:12 So there is this guy who has some money and he has to give it to his two sons. 1:15:16 And he says here is the money. Do whatever the fuck you want with it. 1:15:19 One of them doesn't do nothing and stays home. 1:15:21 And the other one takes the money, goes out in the world, 1:15:24 does blow up hookers' tits, does drugs, does everything else that he can do. 1:15:29 And he ends up in the worst possible scenario of his life. 1:15:33 He is like fucked really bad right now. 1:15:35 He doesn't have any money. He has nothing. 1:15:37 And the only thing he can do is he gets a job as feeding pigs, 1:15:41 which is the lowest thing he can do in society. 1:15:44 And it's so bad that he can't even afford food. 1:15:46 And he can't even feed the food he is feeding the pigs, eat it himself. 1:15:51 For some fucking miracle, he gets connected with his dad and whatever, 1:15:54 and he comes back home. 1:15:56 Now when he comes back home, the dad takes out the fat cow, 1:15:59 cuts it, throws a big party for him, and takes him in. 1:16:03 And now when the other son that stayed home with the money and whatever saw this, 1:16:07 he goes like, hang on now, son. Hang on now, dad. 1:16:10 What is the bullshit here? 1:16:12 I've been with you. I stayed with you here all the time. 1:16:14 You didn't cut no fat cow for me. 1:16:16 Why are you doing this for him? 1:16:17 The dad goes like brush him up and goes like, don't worry about it, son. 1:16:20 You've always been here. It's all good. 1:16:22 And then looks at the other one and says, you are lost and now you're found. 1:16:27 So what I'm trying to say is that a lot of times – 1:16:29 so this represents you going into underworld. 1:16:32 The same thing that happens in Dante, the Divine Comedy. 1:16:35 When you go into underworld, the world turns upside down. 1:16:38 It's something you don't happen. 1:16:39 Your girlfriend leaves you. You lost your job. 1:16:42 I don't know. You get arrested. You do drugs. You do all kinds of things. 1:16:45 You go into this underworld and there's the worst that could happen. 1:16:49 But the thing is like – but sometimes you also do the right thing. 1:16:53 That's why you are the dad and those are this duality. 1:16:56 This is your two types of things you go in. 1:17:00 But when you go in the underworld and you like – 1:17:03 when you skip in the underworld, you're going to get out of it eventually. 1:17:06 You're going to be out of it eventually. 1:17:07 And you're the risk-taking entrepreneur. 1:17:10 You at least tried something. 1:17:11 I tried a lot of things. 1:17:13 And the thing is like I fed the pigs so many times that right now, 1:17:17 I know I'm going to end up feeding the pigs again. 1:17:19 But because I fed them so many times, I know I will get out of it. 1:17:24 I'll get out of it faster than anyway. 1:17:26 So somehow you are kind of going for the pigs just to get out of them. 1:17:31 That's what I – and the same thing went here. 1:17:35 It's like – how does this tangent start actually? 1:17:40 I don't know. 1:17:41 Anyway. 1:17:43 Yeah, that's the thing. 1:17:44 You have to feed the pigs sometimes. 1:17:45 You have to go and feed the pigs. 1:17:48 Okay, I know how this ties back also with what was before. 1:17:52 You said, I don't want to fool myself. 1:17:54 You went back to the Feynman quote. 1:17:56 Well, here's the thing right now. 1:17:58 When you end up feeding the pigs, it's because you always fooled yourself. 1:18:02 That's why. 1:18:04 Most of the time, you end up feeding the pigs because you fooled yourself. 1:18:07 So you're going to fool everyone else sometimes. 1:18:10 You're going to fool yourself most of the time because of yourself. 1:18:12 But the point is to be able to forget yourself when you feed the pigs. 1:18:16 That's the thing. 1:18:18 So you learn from the experience. 1:18:21 You learn from the experience. 1:18:22 And if you were wrong – look, if Dan Hill – I don't know. 1:18:25 But if I would end up like Dan Hill and not be like I'm wrong. 1:18:27 If he goes and he goes like I was wrong, that was a stupid idea. 1:18:30 I had to try it and whatever. 1:18:32 No one is going to hate him for that. 1:18:34 And first of all, he's not going to hate himself for it because he was honest. 1:18:38 So that's why I don't know. 1:18:40 I think there should be more trial and error in society, 1:18:44 and there should definitely be more forgiveness in society. 1:18:46 Our society is so crazy. 1:18:48 It's so like shame-based, like the self-appointed behavior police. 1:18:54 Give you a life sentence. 1:18:57 Shout out to Bitcoin Heirloom. What's happening? 1:18:59 It's funny that you – it's really crazy that you – 1:19:01 because I think that Dan Hill is also a behavior police, a lot like Bitcoin Heirloom. 1:19:07 He's always like saying, you know, whatever. 1:19:10 This guy wasn't a Bitcoin maximalist the right way. 1:19:13 Let's shame him. 1:19:14 I think we're the only ones who are not pretty much. 1:19:16 The shit-coiners and the big blockers in us, that's pretty much – 1:19:19 It's a mind virus. It's spread to everyone. 1:19:22 But you know what? I think there's also the fact that, again, 1:19:25 no one shows a different way and no one talks about it. 1:19:28 This is everything you see and like everything you subscribe to, this is their ethos. 1:19:31 Like shit-coin is this, shit-coin is that. 1:19:33 And look, I get they're all dumb. I'm going to tell the same thing. 1:19:36 You said that already earlier. 1:19:37 Yeah, but it's like, I mean, come on. Let's take a chill pill. 1:19:40 Let's talk about something else. 1:19:45 Well, I don't know. 1:19:46 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that you do. 1:19:48 I think you don't know because I'm not sure your whole thing is – 1:19:51 Which one? 1:19:52 100% consistent because – 1:19:55 What thing? What thing do you think is not consistent? 1:19:57 About – 1:19:58 You're probably right. 1:19:59 Well, I was saying before, aren't some of these other projects great? 1:20:04 Isn't Ethereum like on a trajectory of – 1:20:08 because I agree with you that it's terrible, 1:20:10 but don't you think there's like some kind of threat in it? 1:20:13 No, zero. 1:20:14 Zero. 1:20:15 Yeah, I don't know. 1:20:16 But isn't that like a Giacomo comment or something? 1:20:20 First of all, I really like Giacomo a lot also. 1:20:22 I know, me too. 1:20:23 But I think he's also like – 1:20:24 I don't know exactly what he – 1:20:28 sometimes I think he may be like a crazy person. 1:20:34 I don't know how – 1:20:35 I never know how much of it is people in on the joke. 1:20:39 You know what I mean? 1:20:40 When people are in on the joke, it's really funny. 1:20:42 But sometimes if they're really like that, you're like, wait a minute. 1:20:48 I think he's – 1:20:49 I don't know if they're in on the joke. 1:20:51 To what extent are they in on the joke? 1:20:53 I don't know what the joke is. 1:20:54 Now I'm confused. I don't think I'm in on the joke. 1:20:56 Is the joke like – 1:21:00 Bitcoin is the best for a lot of rational reasons. 1:21:03 Correct. 1:21:04 Okay, so let's go through – should we go through them? 1:21:08 Go for it. 1:21:09 It was first, and it has – 1:21:11 it was first, thus putting a weird onus, 1:21:15 like a weird responsibility on all the competitors to say, 1:21:18 if you deviate from Bitcoin to this, why – 1:21:20 where do we stop deviating? 1:21:23 Do we go – 1:21:24 if you go from Bitcoin to Litecoin, do you go from Litecoin to Federcoin? 1:21:27 Do you change it every Saturday? 1:21:30 Do you change it every six months? 1:21:32 So Bitcoin is first, and that makes a difference because of coordination. 1:21:39 The blockchain is inherently like this team project. 1:21:43 You're on the same network as everyone else, 1:21:45 so you cannot frivolously modify the rules. 1:21:50 So even if you really think the block size should increase, 1:21:53 you kind of have to just bite the bullet in the name of loyalty and teamwork. 1:21:57 I like how when you said bite the bullet, you did this gesture like this. 1:22:00 I know, yeah, like visibly uncomfortable even talking about this 1:22:04 because it's such a like loaded issue. 1:22:09 I think there's something in your brain. 1:22:11 We still think that there's some merit to people even try big blocks, 1:22:14 even if they're dumb. 1:22:16 Yes, there is, right. 1:22:17 So should we talk about that? 1:22:18 Go for it. 1:22:19 Because I think there should be – 1:22:21 it's healthy to have competition. 1:22:24 So it's healthy to have – 1:22:27 it's like you say, like you were saying about Dan, 1:22:30 you try something and you say, oh, it didn't work, but they gave it a try. 1:22:34 They gave it a new chain try and lightning and thunder erupted from the skies 1:22:39 and they did battle and it was fun to watch. 1:22:44 Well, here's the thing, Paul. 1:22:46 That's very true in most of the things, 1:22:48 but what's happening with Bitcoin Cash, for example, 1:22:50 that's not a fucking good competition. 1:22:53 That's some retarded kid coming in. 1:22:57 It's not fun to fight with them anymore. 1:22:59 It's fucking outrageous. 1:23:00 It's like you can't take them seriously. 1:23:02 I agree with that. 1:23:03 Yeah, I do agree. 1:23:04 The critique of Bitcoin Cash is not threatening it, not ominous enough. 1:23:09 But the critique – look, there's a lot of problems. 1:23:12 I think most people wouldn't agree with that. 1:23:14 There's block propagation. 1:23:16 There's a lot of strictly technical issues 1:23:19 that can be calculated with a formula. 1:23:21 And after this threshold, we're having issues. 1:23:23 There's a lot of these things, and you know them probably better than me. 1:23:26 I do, but I don't think they are insurmountable though. 1:23:32 I think they are. 1:23:33 I don't know where – 1:23:34 Why do you have this pessimism about this that you don't have about other things? 1:23:41 Because I think from an architectural point of view 1:23:45 and from the principles that we need to abide by this Bitcoin, 1:23:49 and for the reasons I am bought into Bitcoin and I am here, 1:23:52 and I use it and why we're doing this podcast, 1:23:55 I think if we would have three megabyte blocks – 1:23:58 sorry, five megabyte blocks, maybe it's not that bad. 1:24:03 I don't think – 1:24:04 Yeah, but I don't think anyone is even disputing it. 1:24:06 It's like big versus small, the way I see it. 1:24:09 Yeah, and I think as you go again – 1:24:12 Like gigabyte, one gigabyte. 1:24:14 Yeah, see, when you say that, I'm just like you lost me. 1:24:17 There's nothing. We can talk about it there. 1:24:20 Well, see, first of all, obviously like my published official position 1:24:26 or whatever you want to call it, 1:24:28 is the layer one blocks should be much smaller than they are, 1:24:31 and we should have a large block sidechain. 1:24:34 So that's my position. 1:24:35 I don't want anyone to think like I'm not really like – 1:24:37 especially for layer one, I'm not like a layer one big blocker person at all. 1:24:42 I never thought of that. I never got any push just to make it clear. 1:24:45 I know, but you know how it is. 1:24:47 Yeah, everyone else thinks that. 1:24:48 You know how it's going to go. 1:24:52 But the idea – some people have this view that the gigabyte block network 1:25:00 just can't work as a matter of – like it's a law of physics. 1:25:04 And I just think that's – that seems kind of crazy to me 1:25:08 because think about it. 1:25:10 There's – a lot of places in the world have fast internet. 1:25:15 So it's not really – it's not necessarily hardware. 1:25:20 People could build hardware. 1:25:22 They could build like a card that just specializes in doing whatever, 1:25:27 Merkle trees, digital signature checking or something. 1:25:30 It's a hardware card that could improve it by a factor of hundred – 1:25:36 five or six or seven orders of magnitude. 1:25:38 You just lost. 1:25:39 And you have like a GPU or something. 1:25:40 You just lost at this argument though because that specialization, 1:25:44 that direction requires some additional cost somewhere. 1:25:46 And it's not the same as being able to like run your node and all these things. 1:25:50 No, but it's possible that – just possible. 1:25:53 Go on. 1:25:54 I'm just saying. 1:25:55 The card could be mass produced or could be produced in a way that it has 1:25:59 like some pretext, some other purpose. 1:26:01 And then it would be – you can't manufacture your own laptop computer 1:26:05 using just the materials you have like in a normal apartment building. 1:26:10 You have to buy that. 1:26:12 It's the same as making a burger from scratch in the onions. 1:26:15 You can't make a burger from scratch, right. 1:26:17 Exactly, right. 1:26:18 So all it needs to be is it needs to just be – 1:26:22 we just need to live in a world where you could get that card. 1:26:25 That solves most of the problems. 1:26:27 And you just need to be able to get it from somewhere. 1:26:29 I agree that that has its own drawbacks, 1:26:31 but this is very different from the world where people just say that 1:26:33 that can never work ever. 1:26:35 I think that is the Bitcoin – that is like the cult talking. 1:26:39 That is just like people just saying that it's contaminant. 1:26:43 I don't think so. 1:26:45 Okay, let's get back to this hypothetical. 1:26:48 Let's just say there's this magic machine, which is – this is like kind of – 1:26:51 I feel like what you're saying is kind of like if we have a time machine. 1:26:55 No, you know perfectly well the card – 1:26:57 it's only the bandwidth that you can't – 1:26:59 It's more feasible than a time machine. 1:27:02 But a lot of places have bandwidth. 1:27:03 It could be like compression algorithms or something that – 1:27:06 I mean a lot of that data is random hashes that can't be compressed. 1:27:10 But you never know. 1:27:11 Like the way it propagates – we have – 1:27:14 I never thought spy mining and SPV mining, 1:27:18 that effectively to the miners propagates the block like sort of instantly 1:27:22 with no real incentive problems. 1:27:25 It's bad incentive benefits. 1:27:27 So you are trying to say that there's a lot of smart – 1:27:33 so let's say you have this computer that could do these things, 1:27:38 and you're trying to say that actually we have technologic – 1:27:41 we got to the point where software got really smart, 1:27:44 hardware got really good, 1:27:46 and you're trying to say this is more feasible than people think. 1:27:48 I think that's – yeah, I think that was already very close though. 1:27:52 Okay. 1:27:53 So yeah, but now the problem is like – 1:27:55 There's already that guy Andrew Stone already did like something 1:27:57 worth a gigabyte block like testnet or something. 1:28:00 I don't know how reliable that is at all. 1:28:02 Okay. 1:28:03 Look, I don't know what the fuck that guy is. 1:28:05 I don't have time for shit like that. 1:28:06 But the point is that it's like I don't watch Special Olympics, 1:28:09 so I'm not going to watch that. 1:28:10 Anyway, so the point is – 1:28:13 I'm sorry. 1:28:14 That can't go in the show I think. 1:28:17 So the point is that – 1:28:18 You just bleep it all out and everyone will just be wondering what did he say. 1:28:22 So the point is that – 1:28:28 so let's say you can even make this machine is not as hard. 1:28:30 It's hard to implement it and put it around and get it in the hands of people. 1:28:33 There's too many ifs, Paul. 1:28:35 There's too many ifs. 1:28:37 It's too many ifs. 1:28:38 No, but that's what I'm saying. 1:28:39 It's just a few ifs though. 1:28:40 That's what I'm saying. 1:28:41 It's actually not that many ifs. 1:28:43 I think they're huge. 1:28:44 Well, anyway, I don't know. 1:28:45 I don't know. 1:28:46 Like we got to the point of this conversation where we need to measure it somehow. 1:28:49 Let's measure it then. 1:28:50 Let's take a bet on it and measure it. 1:28:51 Yeah, but you know that – 1:28:54 well, one part of the measurement is quite easy. 1:28:56 I mean it's – 1:28:58 okay, I actually have some measurements, but they're on a different computer. 1:29:02 But you can look at – 1:29:05 what you can do is you can look at – 1:29:08 there's a couple of different things you can look at, 1:29:10 but one of them is that Jameson Lopp used – 1:29:13 he got like a big computer and used it to see how quickly he could validate 1:29:19 Bitcoin Core under a couple of different – 1:29:23 I shared that tweet in that episode. 1:29:25 Did you see that? 1:29:26 I remember. 1:29:27 I shared it. 1:29:28 What do you mean? 1:29:29 I fucking put it in the notes. 1:29:30 I remember it, yeah. 1:29:31 Well, I thought it was a long time ago. 1:29:32 But it was like – 1:29:33 it scans through the whole blockchain, 1:29:34 so you can just see this is how many gigabytes of data it had to process, 1:29:39 and then you can just multiply or whatever. 1:29:42 Paul, I mean I'm sure there's some things that make this visible. 1:29:48 So I'm just saying today with like $6,000, it's feasible if you – 1:29:52 it depends. 1:29:53 You need to make sure that you have – 1:29:54 But do you understand that I could use a Raspberry Pi 4 right now 1:29:57 to do what I'm doing right now? 1:29:58 Do you understand the difference in this? 1:30:00 Absolutely. 1:30:01 Do you think how hard – 1:30:02 like that's a general purpose computer that could be used very easy and performs well. 1:30:09 Yeah, but the $6,000 thing was also a general purpose computer, 1:30:11 and I'm not saying – 1:30:14 the important thing – 1:30:16 I even tweeted something this week about – 1:30:20 it's important to be able to hide the physical location of the nodes 1:30:24 because we have people coming after the self-hosted wallets and whatever. 1:30:28 So it's going to be important for people to be able to run the node. 1:30:31 It should be cheap to run a node. 1:30:33 I agree with all that. 1:30:34 I'm just saying that it's not like this – 1:30:36 people are talking about it's an impossible thing. 1:30:38 It's just the difference between $6,000 and $50. 1:30:42 Right, and this is the same as Ethereum. 1:30:44 Ethereum is like – 1:30:45 it's not impossible to have a Turing complete whatever, 1:30:48 but when you put it – 1:30:49 and you could probably make it run, 1:30:51 but it's got to be a shit. 1:30:53 So that's the same thing. 1:30:54 You could probably do that, 1:30:56 but it's – 1:30:57 it runs just like the fact that it's running on something, 1:31:00 but it's not working properly by no means. 1:31:06 I don't know. 1:31:07 I don't – 1:31:08 it seems like a big – 1:31:09 it's very dismissive. 1:31:10 Yes, it is because it's stupid. 1:31:11 Why do you have this sweet spot for this thing? 1:31:12 You have a sweet spot for these things. 1:31:14 Why? 1:31:15 I want to understand why. 1:31:16 Well, I think it's about creativity. 1:31:18 It's like what you were saying. 1:31:19 You should try – 1:31:20 it's like trial and error. 1:31:21 People should try it, 1:31:22 and then – 1:31:23 one of the things about the main drawbacks 1:31:27 to having a heavy block, 1:31:33 large blocks, 1:31:35 the main drawback is just that it makes it difficult to – 1:31:38 it's not even that difficult to start up the node. 1:31:41 It's just difficult to hide the fact that you own a node 1:31:44 because there's this big bandwidth pulses across the internet. 1:31:48 Isn't it a problem also with verifying the blockchain? 1:31:52 I don't actually think that's – 1:31:54 with a nice computer, 1:31:55 that is not – 1:31:56 I don't think that's a problem at all. 1:31:57 The other thing is that you can tweak the settings if you like. 1:32:03 Like already there's this thing, assume valid. 1:32:05 Are you familiar with this? 1:32:07 It doesn't even check signatures for like – 1:32:10 because the blockchain is many years long at this point. 1:32:12 It just goes back like 18 months. 1:32:14 Before that, it doesn't even check the signatures, 1:32:16 which is the most expensive part of checking the blockchain. 1:32:21 It doesn't even check them at all 1:32:22 because how could it possibly be that we would be 18 months 1:32:27 and no one would have noticed? 1:32:29 You see, that's kind of the point. 1:32:31 The large blockers say something like that as well. 1:32:33 They say, well, you know, 1:32:35 someone will notice if it's wrong, 1:32:37 and then the blockchain will roll back to that point 1:32:40 and then proceed again. 1:32:42 So there's actually no – 1:32:43 it's kind of hard to make it so that the blockchain contains errors, 1:32:46 and that's the whole point of SPV mode, 1:32:48 which is also how sidechain works. 1:32:50 It's how every sidechain thing sort of must work. 1:32:56 But the main drawback of large block is it's hard to hide the fact – 1:33:01 it's hard to hide your node. 1:33:02 It's hard to like – 1:33:03 to go on Amazon Web Services and run the node. 1:33:08 During the time of oppression, 1:33:10 when the state is coming for you or whatever, 1:33:13 this is like now difficult for you. 1:33:15 You're very reliant on your node, but it will be difficult. 1:33:20 It's like you say, right? 1:33:22 Someone builds a car, builds a pickup truck, 1:33:25 and then Ethereum is building like – 1:33:26 it's like half submarine, half whatever, like confabulation. 1:33:31 So – and it's like the size of a Zeppelin blimp or something. 1:33:39 And so that's the main drawback, 1:33:45 and I think a lot of people are willing to – 1:33:48 they say that they're willing to take that risk, 1:33:51 and I think we should take them at their word and just let them do it. 1:33:55 I agree with you. 1:33:56 It's tyranny to prevent them. 1:33:57 Yeah, look. 1:33:58 I think if people should try things, they should try things. 1:34:00 But look, you could also go on and tell me right now, 1:34:02 I want to set myself on fire to see what happens, 1:34:04 and I'm going to be like – 1:34:05 See, that's what I'm talking about. 1:34:06 You really think it's like that? 1:34:07 Yeah, that's why I'm telling you. 1:34:10 I also think – I don't know if I'm going to say it. 1:34:12 I think it's a mistake. 1:34:14 But I don't think it's setting yourself on fire. 1:34:17 I think that's just like – that's a very extreme thing to say. 1:34:21 Look, man. 1:34:23 If you want to do that, go do that. 1:34:25 Again, I just think it's very stupid, 1:34:27 and I don't think there's anything – 1:34:28 Well, again, the point of sidechains is that people should be able to 1:34:30 try their own different things. 1:34:32 You know what? 1:34:33 I think the only reason you want this – I'm going all in here, 1:34:36 but the only reason I want this is because this would be the only – 1:34:39 these are probably the only people who don't think Drivechains are bad 1:34:43 or something because it would make it somehow feasible for them to do it. 1:34:49 I think there is a – well, wait. 1:34:51 I didn't understand the last part of what you said. 1:34:53 I'm trying to say these are the only people who like your project, 1:34:55 and that's why you want this because they would be the only people who – 1:34:58 Because they like SPD mode or something? 1:35:00 No, they're the only people who could see uses for drivechains. 1:35:03 That's why. 1:35:04 Oh, okay. 1:35:05 And other people don't see them. 1:35:06 I see. 1:35:07 So that's why you kind of like – 1:35:08 Yeah, well, I definitely – 1:35:09 Which is not bad. 1:35:10 Okay. 1:35:11 Yeah, so it's definitely true that there's some – 1:35:13 the people who just think that Bitcoin doesn't need to do anything 1:35:15 and it's perfect the way it is, 1:35:17 those people are natural enemies of like the sidechains project. 1:35:23 There are a lot of Bitcoin maximalists, right? 1:35:25 Some Bitcoin maximalists say if something is a good idea, we'll do it on Bitcoin. 1:35:28 And some people are, well, Bitcoin will have sidechains, 1:35:32 so Bitcoin will eventually absorb everything that's good. 1:35:35 So those people are natural allies of Drivechain or whatever. 1:35:41 But then there are other people who just say – 1:35:43 these are people like – I guess you would say like the hardcore sound money people 1:35:47 who just think that Bitcoin's uselessness is like its best feature. 1:35:53 So this would probably be like SafeDean and some other people over in that category. 1:35:57 He's an idiot. 1:35:58 Shout out to Shif at SafeDean. 1:36:01 You have his book. 1:36:02 I do. 1:36:03 I met him, man. 1:36:04 Look, I talked with him a few times. 1:36:05 He's a really cool guy. 1:36:06 He's really smart. 1:36:07 Sorry, carry on your point. 1:36:08 Forget about it. 1:36:09 I've also seen him from far away. 1:36:10 Maybe he doesn't know this, 1:36:11 but I saw him from far away at the social roundtable for something. 1:36:16 Anyway, your point. 1:36:18 The point is those people are natural enemies of Bitcoin. 1:36:21 The people who just think that we don't need to change anything about Bitcoin. 1:36:24 Bitcoin's success is inevitable, as is pristine Bitcoin. 1:36:28 Those people are obviously not natural friends of sidechains, 1:36:33 even though they should be because one of the features of sidechains 1:36:36 is it lets people do these experiments away from layer one, 1:36:40 which they don't want changed. 1:36:42 So they should be. 1:36:43 But just right now, culturally, those people – 1:36:45 because those people have to say over and over again, 1:36:49 Bitcoin is perfect, everything is shitcoin, whatever. 1:36:52 I don't think there's a single person that has any distant scientific background 1:36:57 or understanding and has that position so hard 1:37:00 that they think that Bitcoin is perfect or whatever. 1:37:02 I don't know anyone like that. 1:37:04 Yeah. 1:37:05 Well, I hope you're right. 1:37:06 But you know what I'm saying. 1:37:07 A lot of people, they say that. 1:37:09 That is a meme that has infected Twitter. 1:37:13 Yeah, but again, it's just like all these fucking people. 1:37:15 So that's difficult. 1:37:16 So those people find it difficult because then I say, 1:37:18 well, here's this project Drivechain that lets you – 1:37:20 you can have whatever. 1:37:22 You can have Ethereum on Bitcoin. 1:37:23 And people are like, why do you do that? 1:37:25 But the problem is that your pitches, it's like – 1:37:28 Yeah. 1:37:29 But then if I say, look, you can do Hivemind, 1:37:30 you can do these decentralized prediction markets, 1:37:32 you can do these event derivatives, 1:37:33 then people say, well, that's not already in Bitcoin, 1:37:36 so it must not be good. 1:37:38 No, no. 1:37:39 Here's how I assess the situation. 1:37:41 You build this car, which is better for – 1:37:44 this car that could transport things, 1:37:46 and it's better somehow in some reasons. 1:37:50 And you go, by the way, you can carry – 1:37:52 you know the doms that come from the sewers of the hospitals? 1:37:55 You can do this and you can make things better. 1:37:57 Yes. 1:37:58 And people are like, why would you do that? 1:37:59 You're talking shit. 1:38:00 And then I would come on and be like, by the way, guys, 1:38:02 we're going to fool this few fucking women. 1:38:04 They're going to have street polls here. 1:38:05 They're going to suck each other out. 1:38:06 They're going to – 1:38:07 and they're like, yeah, that's the greatest thing in the world. 1:38:09 That's the problem. 1:38:10 What do you think that would be? 1:38:11 Like I said, the Zcash sidechain or what? 1:38:13 What is the thing that people actually like? 1:38:14 No, no, no, man. 1:38:15 It's simple, man. 1:38:16 Everyone wants to make money, dude. 1:38:18 That's what you have to do with these things. 1:38:19 You have to find a way that makes money for them. 1:38:21 Yeah, but most of the ways of making money are horrible, 1:38:23 like starting your own coin and whatever ICO crap. 1:38:26 No, no. 1:38:27 See, this is the thing, Paul. 1:38:28 You can't think like that. 1:38:29 You only think – 1:38:30 that's the only way that you saw how to make money, 1:38:32 but there's so multiple ways. 1:38:33 And again, you have to invent – 1:38:35 Lay it down. 1:38:36 Well, I don't know. 1:38:37 I didn't spend that much time on it. 1:38:38 I thought the interesting part would have been with – 1:38:41 which kind of is, but it's just saying – 1:38:44 I thought, again, the Hivemind thing was the most interesting, 1:38:47 and I think you were wrong. 1:38:48 A lot of people like it. 1:38:49 Yeah, but I think you were wrong to try to put forward the 1:38:53 let's elect the president and whatever. 1:38:56 You have to find something like sports gambling or something like that. 1:39:00 If I would be in your shoes right now with a Hivemind project, 1:39:03 but that needs sidechains to implement it how you want it to do it. 1:39:05 But I would just go to like the biggest fucking sports guy. 1:39:08 I wouldn't go to – 1:39:09 I go to some sport things who are small enough, 1:39:12 and it's rowdy enough and crazy enough and gambling enough and whatever, 1:39:16 or some kind of things like this, 1:39:18 and I would try to get them to form a prediction market for them. 1:39:23 And something that people could watch, mud fighting. 1:39:25 I don't know. 1:39:26 Something like that. 1:39:27 It has to be something like that. 1:39:28 And you also could get those ones, 1:39:29 and that's when you're going to get people. 1:39:30 And again, small prediction markets, that would be incredible. 1:39:32 That's how I would think about it. 1:39:33 Well, there is – 1:39:34 no, actually a lot of people who do prediction markets end up going that route, 1:39:38 but I actually have a different way. 1:39:39 But that's with prediction markets specifically. 1:39:41 I don't know if that helps me with the Drivechain angle. 1:39:46 I don't know about the Drivechain. 1:39:47 You think it does, or I just say like – 1:39:50 I told you, Drivechain is an engineering product. 1:39:54 I don't know much about engineering. 1:39:56 Hivemind, it's, again, it's just a natural – 1:40:01 it's just a natural response. 1:40:01 Again, it's just a natural – yeah, but no, but it's a natural occurring direction for what Bitcoin – 1:40:05 Yeah, I agree with you, right, that it's more of – it's like more of what you got with Bitcoin, you're now getting more of that. 1:40:13 Yeah, so when you talk about like – 1:40:15 More Bitcoin-like. 1:40:16 Drivechain is a program you need to write, which I don't know what to tell you more about that. It's a program, which that's what it is. 1:40:23 You need to make an XA that people will run at the end of the day. But Hivemind is not just that. It's more into it than that. 1:40:29 So I don't know how you do that. I don't know. Again, you talk a lot of shit about Blockstream, but they were like, okay, we need a narrative. 1:40:36 We need to find this into a product. Well, what do people do? Here's exchanges. Okay, how can we fit this into this? 1:40:42 Well, what's the problem with exchanges? This. Is it that bad? No, but it's a problem. 1:40:46 It's a problem. Okay, we make this, we make it for them. We make some trade-offs, we put it out, we get a designer. 1:40:51 They got a fucking Chinese girl designer, whatever. And she made it shiny, she made it nice. 1:40:56 It's a very damn hell of a story. 1:40:59 What do you want? 1:41:01 I don't know. Like what I would like is – well, I've said this story many times. 1:41:07 The original sidechain concept was a solution to a problem. 1:41:11 See, that's the other thing. This is all related to this bigger point we were making before about why is this a sweet spot for me or something. 1:41:18 I like it when people disagree. I like it there to be a way for everyone to get what they want. 1:41:24 And I don't see why this isn't that. Everyone could get what they want just with this. 1:41:31 Because that's a – 1:41:33 The small block people can get the small blocks. The large block people can get the large blocks. 1:41:37 There's no reason. And it drives, though. It drives a lot of problems for Bitcoin. 1:41:42 So I think the lack of unity is the big thing preventing Bitcoin from – you want to talk about making money from like really taking off. 1:41:53 Now there's all these cryptocurrencies. It's confusing for the layperson has no idea. 1:41:58 They all look the same to the layperson has no idea what's going on. 1:42:01 They think like a nano is just the same as Litecoin, which is just the same as Ethereum, which is just the same as Bitcoin. 1:42:07 They have no idea what's going on. And you have to have these people hating. 1:42:13 Imagine if Ethereum just at the time had been different and everything was different and Ethereum was a Bitcoin sidechain. 1:42:20 All the people online, the Bitcoiners, the Matt O'Dell's and Dan Harold's, they would be talking about how smart – 1:42:27 they'd be like, look at this guy Vitalik. He's really smart. He has this weird project, Ethereum. 1:42:31 But he's a Bitcoiner. He should want to join like us and join our smart gang. 1:42:37 And we're going to take over the world. We're going to be like Rome. 1:42:39 We're going to fuck up Europe and Northern Africa and everything. And it's all going to – all roads lead to Rome. 1:42:45 Yeah, I don't know. 1:42:48 In that alternative universe. 1:42:50 I feel that – you know how I see it like? It's like imagine – 1:42:53 So it would be totally different. 1:42:55 You know how I see you like right now with your project? You're like somewhere in a room. 1:42:59 And you're in a room. There's 20 people, right? 1:43:02 And everyone wants to eat food because you kind of need to eat food. There's no way about it. 1:43:06 And people start fighting about what food to eat. We should eat this. We should eat this. 1:43:10 There's some guys who have some food here. 1:43:12 And you're just sitting here in a corner of a room. 1:43:15 You take out your fucking pencil and your academic – you use your academic knowledge. 1:43:18 You write a white paper. It's like, guys, I know how everyone can get all their food. 1:43:22 Everyone is happy and bio and the carnivores and whatever. 1:43:25 And you go like, guys, I figured it out. 1:43:26 And then literally everyone in the room turns at you because you're not on their side and they hate you. 1:43:31 That's what's happening with you right now. 1:43:33 I think that's accurate, very accurate. 1:43:34 Yes, I know. That's what's happening right now. 1:43:36 And instead of being like pick a side, pick something. 1:43:40 Can we just – when you do the clip, when you cut the clip, I'll just put it on Drivechain. 1:43:43 I'll do it. 1:43:44 I'll do it for you. 1:43:45 So now – so the thing is what's happening is like you're still sitting there and everyone is throwing tomatoes. 1:43:49 And you're like, guys, no. 1:43:50 I need to – I clearly need to explain it one more time. 1:43:53 That's why I do that. 1:43:54 And every time you explain it, the more they hate you. 1:43:55 PowerPoint number eight. 1:43:56 Yeah, exactly. 1:43:57 And the more they hate you and the more – 1:43:59 I think one day I'll just have the right explanation. 1:44:01 And the thing you need to do is that you need to find one subgroup. 1:44:04 Yeah. 1:44:05 You need to go with your own narrative. 1:44:08 And then the only way you can do this is you find one subgroup that only wants to eat vegetables or something. 1:44:13 You get two of them. 1:44:14 You grow it. 1:44:15 And then the only way this can succeed is everyone all of a sudden became the one that eats vegetables. 1:44:20 But you're not going to get everyone to become friends. 1:44:22 You pick one. 1:44:23 You become enemy of everyone, and you grow it, and everyone abides to that. 1:44:26 That's the only way you can win this. 1:44:29 I'm so good with metaphors. 1:44:30 I'm so good sometimes. 1:44:31 Damn, I'm so good, son. 1:44:35 I don't know if that was going to make sense for a lot of people, but I'm sure it made sense to you because I think that's what it is. 1:44:39 It's not making sense to me. 1:44:40 Yeah. 1:44:41 That's your strategy right there. 1:44:42 There you go. 1:44:43 But I didn't — we'll have to talk more about that later because I didn't fully understand about everyone eating carrots in step two or whatever of that. 1:44:51 I didn't totally get step two. 1:44:54 I find a subgroup. 1:44:55 I found a neglected group. 1:44:58 And I say, you can have everything you want. 1:45:02 No, you can't say you have everything you want. 1:45:04 You find a subgroup who wants to eat vegetables, wants to eat carrots. 1:45:07 I think — is this Luke Jr. who wants a 350-kilobyte block? 1:45:13 Well, here's the thing right now. 1:45:15 If you would become the guy who's trying to put forward Luke's vision for the whatever blocks through sidechains — 1:45:20 I kind of like Luke's vision, so I could become that guy. 1:45:23 That's going to be more sympathetic for the people rather than being the guy who tries to put Roger Ver's vision, whoever he hates. 1:45:28 And I think he's a piece of shit anyway. 1:45:30 So you just picked the wrong crowd right now. 1:45:32 You hate the one for everyone. 1:45:33 It's the one who hates everyone else, and you made friends with that guy. 1:45:36 It's like, okay, bad. 1:45:37 That's the problem, you know? 1:45:39 I think — well, that makes a little bit of sense. 1:45:42 But, okay, so should we talk about Roger Ver or no? 1:45:45 How long is this podcast? 1:45:46 I don't know. 1:45:47 Just keep talking if you want to. 1:45:48 Okay, so, yeah. 1:45:50 So the story behind me and Roger Ver — and I like Roger Ver, and you hate him. 1:45:55 But he — Blockstream offered — so this is like when — what time traveling now? 1:46:02 2014? 1:46:06 2014, in like January, I published the Truthcoin white paper. 1:46:12 And there was a lot of interest. 1:46:15 There are actually multiple versions of Truthcoin out there at one point, but it's a long story. 1:46:20 Anyway, get back on track. 1:46:21 Yeah, in November, Blockstream offered me like a partnership type thing. 1:46:27 Question before this. 1:46:28 So at some point, there's a white paper on sidechains that Maxwell — 1:46:32 That's November of 2015. 1:46:34 That's October 2014. 1:46:36 Okay, and your — 1:46:37 Oh, I have to tell you this, though. 1:46:38 Go on. 1:46:40 I don't think it's related, but I actually published a different version of Drivechain, 1:46:44 DriveSpaceChain, the space, that I thought was so dumb that no one would like it, 1:46:51 but I published it anyway on Bitcoin Talk. 1:46:54 And it was like two chains, and once a chain is advanced enough, some multi-sig — 1:47:01 I didn't say federation, but I said some oracle, someone will just sign off on the deposits. 1:47:07 And I was like, this idea is so stupid that no one will like it at all. 1:47:10 And that later became like Liquid, or, you know, I don't think it's really related, 1:47:14 but I just want to say that much earlier than that, the paper was published. 1:47:19 And then the idea that they put in Appendix A and that later became like their foundation 1:47:23 of their like fake business model was what I thought was too stupid to even like care about. 1:47:28 I think it was like April. 1:47:30 Okay, fair. I didn't know that, by the way. 1:47:32 It's a random — I don't think anyone knows that. 1:47:34 But yeah, Drivechain went through like different versions. 1:47:36 And then I was like, why do you have people sign that you're just making part of the blockchain rules? 1:47:40 Okay, okay. So now getting back on track, you put up the paper, the paper paper in January, 1:47:46 and when did Blockstream offer you the what? 1:47:51 Well, they were like, they reached out and said like, you know, you're doing a thing with sidechains. 1:47:57 That's our thing. So we're natural allies. All that was correct. 1:48:02 And that was November and they wanted to help. 1:48:05 Wait, they wanted to help you or they wanted to come and work with you? 1:48:08 Help me build like Truthcoin, basically. 1:48:10 Wow, okay, cool. 1:48:11 You know, they did not really offer me a job. 1:48:13 Okay. 1:48:14 But it didn't really get that far because what happened was they were worried about like prediction markets and regulators. 1:48:20 This was like before, you know, everything got big. 1:48:23 This is before blockchain, not Bitcoin. That was 2016. This is like way before all that. 1:48:27 Yeah. 1:48:28 So this was like still like we may all be arrested in our sleep and then killed. 1:48:33 So they like didn't want to do it. 1:48:35 But then I met Roger Ver in December and he was just like pulled the trigger on it immediately. 1:48:39 So he helped create, he's really responsible for, because the guy that he hired, who I don't want to like talk about this, 1:48:48 but it was like, I don't even want to say because I shouldn't say, but that person helped work with me. 1:48:55 And if you go to BitcoinHiveMain.com and scroll down, you can see the software that we produced. 1:49:01 That was in 2015. 1:49:03 Yeah, so I know there's that. 1:49:05 So he pulled the trigger and Blockstream was like, they were like not cyberpunk enough. 1:49:09 Okay, one second right now. I need to ask something. 1:49:11 So when you say pull the trigger, did he give you finding that he has his guy saying he's like go and work with this guy? 1:49:16 What happened exactly? 1:49:17 Yes, he paid for the development. He paid me to quit my job. 1:49:20 Oh, where did you work then? 1:49:22 I was working at Yale. 1:49:24 The prestigious job at Yale. 1:49:27 Have you heard of it? 1:49:28 You may have heard of it. 1:49:29 It's in the last trailer. 1:49:32 Anyway, so this guy goes like, look, I'm going to pay you a salary and I'm going to give you some money to hire someone else to work with you on this and make this an executable pretty much. 1:49:45 Yeah, whatever. 1:49:46 Like that. 1:49:47 Whatever. 1:49:48 Yeah. 1:49:49 Yeah. 1:49:50 Okay. 1:49:51 Which was produced. 1:49:52 It is. 1:49:53 It's been on the site the whole time. 1:49:55 Now I have a question. 1:49:56 Is it known? 1:49:57 Do you want to share how much he did? 1:49:59 He gave the money. 1:50:00 Or do you don't want to share that? 1:50:01 What do you want to know? 1:50:03 Do you want to share how much he invested in your project pretty much? 1:50:08 I can estimate that it was like, I don't know. 1:50:14 Maybe I should say, like, if you think you shouldn't say, don't say it. 1:50:18 But yeah, I probably shouldn't say it's not. 1:50:20 It wasn't very much, though. 1:50:22 Okay. 1:50:23 Anyway. 1:50:24 I mean, how much could it be? 1:50:25 It was only like a few. 1:50:26 If you don't want to say, don't fucking say it, dude. 1:50:28 I just don't. 1:50:29 I just think I can't figure out if I should say or not. 1:50:31 So I just, why not? 1:50:32 Okay. 1:50:33 Forget about it. 1:50:34 So now other questions. 1:50:35 So now when he did this deal, what kind of deal did you have with him? 1:50:38 Like, I'll give you this money. 1:50:39 And what did you get him back? 1:50:40 You give him equity or what was it? 1:50:42 There is the Hivemind has a second token. 1:50:46 This was long before all this stuff. 1:50:48 And it's out of exasperation. 1:50:50 So you don't need the token to use it or whatever. 1:50:53 It's like an employee only zone. 1:50:55 But because the way the economics work, you have to do some labor. 1:51:00 Because you need a way to punish people who report badly. 1:51:04 Now those people earn a wage that is far above the equilibrium. 1:51:09 So you have to do a little bit of work. 1:51:11 But just the way it all works out, those people, you know, 1:51:15 you have to spend like an afternoon typing like 250 answers to questions. 1:51:20 That's like four times per year. 1:51:22 So you do a very small amount of work, 1:51:24 but in return they get potentially a huge amount of money that co-varies 1:51:28 with the trading activity in the markets. 1:51:30 I think that's really good context. 1:51:33 So you're trying to say that the reason you had this token, 1:51:35 very apologetically I might add, 1:51:37 is because it was a way that you had to like put, 1:51:42 incentivize everything altogether. 1:51:44 Yeah, it's part of the design. 1:51:45 It had nothing to do with raising money or whatever, anything. 1:51:47 So now Roger gives you X amount of money, which you should disclose. 1:51:51 And then you say, what did you give him in return? 1:51:54 Some percentage of it. 1:51:55 I said you can have some percentage of that. 1:51:57 Okay. Okay. All right. 1:51:59 So that was actually pretty well wrapped up actually, 1:52:04 especially compared to all the stuff that people would later come up with. 1:52:07 All right. So this was, again, 1:52:08 this was just pretty much a thing between you and him. 1:52:11 And then this token, by the way, 1:52:13 was it generated in the beginning or how did this token work exactly? 1:52:17 A hundred percent of it exists at the beginning because it is, 1:52:19 it was just terrible. 1:52:20 It looks as though this is like a hundred percent free mind scam or 1:52:23 something, but it's not like that at all. 1:52:25 I mean, there's a lot of things wrong with it. Sorry. 1:52:27 It is, but it is not. 1:52:28 There's basically like this Oracle corporation that resolves the answers. 1:52:32 And you own like a percentage of it. 1:52:34 And it's important that this exists because otherwise there's no, 1:52:38 there's nothing to stop exit scamming. 1:52:40 Right. 1:52:41 So you build up a reputation and then you exit scam. 1:52:43 But with this, you build up a reputation. 1:52:45 The corporation becomes more, it's just like in real life. 1:52:47 The company becomes more valuable and then you just sell, 1:52:49 you don't exit scam, you just sell to someone else. 1:52:51 Right. Right. So now when you, when you did this, 1:52:53 did you give Roger a wallet and you sent him the coins before? 1:52:56 No, because it's like, 1:52:57 it was never produced because Blockstream never made sidechains. 1:53:00 So it's like kind of in this unfinished state. 1:53:02 And I'm not even sure exactly what the state of the agreement is. 1:53:05 So now, so now after all these years. 1:53:07 Exactly. I don't know. Like, you know, 1:53:09 I'm happy to figure something out. 1:53:12 When is the last time you talked to Roger? 1:53:13 That's a good question. 1:53:15 It's been a while. 1:53:17 It's been more than a year. Yeah. It's been like more than, I don't know. 1:53:21 Here's the thing that I'm trying to understand. 1:53:23 I think you had this wrong impression that if someone gives you money as an 1:53:27 investment, you have to give it back. It's like, no, it's, it's, 1:53:29 if the project filled, that's what investment works like. 1:53:32 Some person takes the risk with you because they believe in you. 1:53:35 Well, not all of them, but most of them, 1:53:37 VCs probably wouldn't have seen it the same way. 1:53:39 But most of them that I've tried to merge your company or something, 1:53:42 or hire you somewhere and get some money back. 1:53:44 But the thing that would try to go for a soft line as much as they can. 1:53:47 But with Roger, I guess it's like, you're off the hook, you know? 1:53:50 Well, there were a lot of people who, 1:53:52 I was not comfortable taking money from almost anyone and, 1:53:56 and, but I was taking it from, because, you know, he has, 1:53:58 he had a lot of money. 1:53:59 So I was like, this wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. 1:54:01 And this is right up his alley, honestly, with all the stuff about this. 1:54:05 And the project still like could achieve greatness, which is crazy. 1:54:10 Is that the, 1:54:12 even though the theoretical basis for Hivemind, as far as I can tell, 1:54:15 makes sense and whatever, 1:54:16 clearly the project flopped because it didn't survive. Right. 1:54:19 And, and I think you're, if you feel bad for that, 1:54:21 I do feel bad that it hasn't started. It hasn't, it hasn't started. 1:54:24 You feel bad that someone gave you money, 1:54:26 which were they were willing to take that risk. 1:54:27 And you feel like you kind of owe to these people to like, 1:54:29 give them back something. And it's like, well, I'm sorry, 1:54:31 but that's how it works. 1:54:32 You can't be a businessman and thing like that. Look, you know, 1:54:35 when they say, when you get money, 1:54:37 the first time you're supposed to get it from the free Fs, 1:54:39 you know what that is? 1:54:40 You can't be a businessman and thing like that. 1:54:42 Look, man, it's very simple. Like, look, 1:54:44 I don't think you should go and scam grannies or something, 1:54:46 but it's almost to give you their money. And that's a risk. 1:54:49 And that's on them. I don't have to do fuck me. 1:54:51 That's how investment works. So that's it. 1:54:53 But you should also give him a call and be like, by the way, 1:54:56 do you even remember? 1:54:57 And he doing judo or something and he's probably going to be like, 1:55:01 I don't know who the fuck you are, by the way. 1:55:02 I don't remember. 1:55:12 I give money to everyone. 1:55:14 I don't even remember. 1:55:15 But the problem with Roger Verdo is that. 1:55:18 Yeah. What is the problem? 1:55:19 Cause you really don't like him. 1:55:20 So, but my, and I, I met him many times. 1:55:23 Super nice guy. 1:55:26 He's very nice to like all the people you meet, like, you know, 1:55:30 the people you meet like in the hallway or whatever. 1:55:32 So it's just, it's him. That's the nice guy. 1:55:35 It's like, he's nice for the camera or something. 1:55:37 I believe that. 1:55:38 I honestly believe that. 1:55:39 I sincerely believe that. 1:55:40 He really cares about Bitcoin and really cares about making the world a 1:55:44 better place. And, you know, 1:55:46 I infer that he really wants revenge on the government for imprisonment, 1:55:50 wrongfully imprisoning him. And when he was a teenager. 1:55:54 So what's not to like, I mean. 1:55:56 Well, I'll tell you what's not to like. 1:55:58 You know, you can have ideals. 1:56:00 Like you want to play guitar and sometimes your ideals might get corrupted 1:56:05 in some way. That's how life is. 1:56:06 You get corrupted as a person corrupt yourself. 1:56:08 Sometimes that's the path of change and achieving whatever you want to 1:56:12 achieve. But the problem is that. 1:56:16 And I, again, 1:56:17 I like person who tries and who's willing to just break the line just a bit 1:56:20 and whatever. I like that so much. 1:56:21 I think that's how I get ahead in life. Right. 1:56:23 But there's some things that I would never cross and, 1:56:28 and not because I think there's a moral standard that I find that everyone 1:56:31 should abide to. I just think it's just bad to do those things. 1:56:35 And the thing he did is he's not an honest guy anymore. He, and again, 1:56:40 I'm okay. Maybe you want to lie a bit. 1:56:43 The held shell. Yes. I'm okay with that. I'm trying to just figure it out. 1:56:47 I'm okay. But here's the problem. I love me. 1:56:51 Look, that was just me going on crazy. I love the guy. He's a smart guy. 1:56:55 Like I would, I would, I never had a chance to, 1:56:57 I don't think I ever met him, but I would definitely, 1:57:00 like I would really be interested in talking to him. 1:57:02 Cause he's a really smart guy and he, 1:57:04 he knows a lot of things and his brain works interesting and he sometimes 1:57:07 distracts things. So he has nice memes. So again, I don't want to say like, 1:57:10 you know, but fuck him anyway. 1:57:14 So the problem with Roger is that is that he is not honest at all. 1:57:19 And he got to a point like, see this thing. I'm okay. Maybe I'll, 1:57:22 I'll lie to you that if I sell something, 1:57:24 I maybe even like lie a bit about it, 1:57:27 but I don't want to be super disingenuous. Like, you know, 1:57:30 maybe I'll lie to you and I'll give you the product. 1:57:32 It comes shipped a day later or something. I'm okay with that, 1:57:35 but I'm not okay with you telling me like, 1:57:37 this is a glass and you send me a fucking rubber duck in the box. 1:57:41 I'll never be able to be okay with that. And that's what he did. 1:57:44 It's about the Bitcoin name though. 1:57:45 It's about all the other things. And it gets you to, you know what? 1:57:48 The thing is like, 1:57:49 I think he got to a point where he really thought he was right and he got so 1:57:53 invested with this. And then it was more obvious that he was wrong. 1:57:57 But the, the, the, the people are hitting him so much that he couldn't, 1:58:02 he can't go back. Well, yeah. I mean, 1:58:06 and now he's in this position where, 1:58:08 where he comes down and he's wrong because I don't know. Maybe again, 1:58:11 he has a lot of money or whatever. So he, he can't probably admit he was wrong, 1:58:15 but also just because of that hate, I guess he can't like snap out of it. 1:58:18 And it's, he's the same as Darth Vader, by the way. 1:58:22 That's the thing with Darth Vader though. 1:58:24 He was one of the most powerful people in the universe. Literally. 1:58:26 I'm not saying Roger is like that, but he was in a good position at the beginning. 1:58:29 And the only, 1:58:30 he ended up being the biggest loser in the universe because he was afraid. 1:58:34 Fear is what made him do that. Right. And so anger, anger, 1:58:37 and anger then afterwards, anger, anger got him. 1:58:40 This is a very weird interpretation. I think. 1:58:43 I don't think so at all. 1:58:44 I think Roger right now is just angry at people being mad at him. 1:58:47 And instead of being like, these guys are wrong and whatever, he's still, 1:58:51 he's one-upping it every time. Kids are dying. I mean, come on. 1:58:55 That's just cringeville 9,000. You know what I'm trying to say? 1:58:58 That's why I don't like him. 1:58:59 That's the type of thing that you're not supposed to say. 1:59:01 He became the person, he became so disingenuous that there's really, I can see. 1:59:07 But no, but it's the disingenuous, what you're talking about is the name though. 1:59:10 The idea of the real Bitcoin. 1:59:13 The name, the arguments he's putting forward. 1:59:16 He's always trying, again, I said this at some point when we were talking, 1:59:20 you know, there's these guys who walk on the street and try to put a bracelet on you, 1:59:23 and then you have to pay for it. That's how he feels. 1:59:27 I've never experienced that. 1:59:29 You never went in tourist areas and there's guys who make the bracelets 1:59:32 and they snap it on your hand and say goodbye? 1:59:35 Nope. 1:59:36 You're clearly going in the wrong place on vacation. 1:59:38 Yeah, I guess so. 1:59:39 So that's my problem with Roger. 1:59:42 I don't like weird things. 1:59:44 Like, okay. 1:59:47 Once someone tried to have, they had like a monkey like climbing on people 1:59:50 and they would like try to take pictures and sell them to you. 1:59:53 That was pretty weird. 1:59:54 Wow, where was this happening? 1:59:56 This was in the Caribbean. 1:59:57 Where did you go in the Caribbean? 1:59:59 I was, why does it matter? 2:00:01 Where, where, where? 2:00:02 I'm curious. 2:00:03 I've been also there and I'm curious. 2:00:05 I don't think it matters very much. 2:00:07 You don't want to share where you were? 2:00:08 It's not, it's not, it's not. 2:00:10 It's not good for the story. 2:00:12 What does this have to do with the fucking story? 2:00:14 This is just a tangent. 2:00:16 Well, anyway, if you don't want to say, you don't want to fucking say, fine. 2:00:18 That's all good. 2:00:19 Okay. 2:00:20 Anyway, regardless. 2:00:21 Yeah. 2:00:22 So that's my problem with Roger. 2:00:23 It gets right now where I, I really, whenever he comes up anywhere, 2:00:27 there's a disingenuous, this such crazy nature that it just baffles me. 2:00:31 So I got to the point where I look, he's a troubled person. 2:00:34 I'm trying to say, what is the disingenuous, 2:00:37 it's about the name is what I'm. 2:00:39 The name, all the arguments he's making. 2:00:42 It sounds like they're technical. 2:00:44 All the proposition he's made, all the lying about, like, I remember, 2:00:48 like I tweeted something on Max Keiser. 2:00:50 He was a big hypocrite. 2:00:52 He was, he means something about Roger Ver. 2:00:54 And then I tweeted, like, I have to like cough and a clip of, 2:00:58 of Roger being on his show. 2:01:00 And he wasn't opposing him anyway. 2:01:02 And I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, 2:01:05 he wasn't opposing him anyway. 2:01:07 And I was watching that show recently. 2:01:09 And he goes like the miners want this. 2:01:11 He's just making up a lot of things. 2:01:14 It's another thing though. 2:01:16 I mean, Max Keiser, I like I've met Max Keiser many times, 2:01:18 Matt and Stacey, they're super nice. 2:01:20 I like them. 2:01:22 They're great. 2:01:24 That's someone I would want to hang out with. 2:01:26 I know he's, I think a super interesting guy. 2:01:28 But you know, like, what about like with Max coin? 2:01:32 And there's all this other stuff that Max Keiser has done. 2:01:35 I don't remember, but crazy around 2000. 2:01:38 People like, don't talk about it. 2:01:40 Here's the thing with Max Keiser, 2:01:42 like the barrels of the fucking shit coins from 2013 to whatever, 2:01:47 they would get those mini pumps from his fucking show. 2:01:50 He had the bottom of the barrel. 2:01:52 And here's the thing right now. 2:01:54 I don't think he could understand what was happening. 2:01:56 He's not a technical guy. 2:01:58 He's pretty smart. 2:02:00 He understands financial fraud. 2:02:02 No, but I don't think he understood. 2:02:05 Anyway, the point is this bottom of the bottles would come there. 2:02:08 Now, all of a sudden, he realized, 2:02:10 like people started having Tona around when Tone came on his show. 2:02:14 I'm going to tell you. 2:02:16 Around when Tone came on his show, 2:02:18 he started going on a Maximo's run. 2:02:21 And then when he did that, he, you know, 2:02:23 he has like a lot of Bitcoin and he has this fund 2:02:25 that he invested in a lot of companies. 2:02:27 He invested in Casa and Swan and whatever. 2:02:29 Well, no, these people cannot call him out. 2:02:32 He has money in their fucking company. 2:02:33 So they're not going to call him out and be like, 2:02:35 Mav, you're a big hypocrite with two fucking faces, you know? 2:02:38 And now if you want to raise money, 2:02:40 who's a better person to get money from than Max Cazor? 2:02:43 Because you get also exposure from him. 2:02:45 He's like the real investor who doesn't bring you just money. 2:02:47 And he's also smart. 2:02:50 You want to be like, Max, come on, help us out. 2:02:53 So now all of a sudden you're in this weird position 2:02:55 where like no one can stand up to him. 2:02:57 And I don't think he's doing anything wrong. 2:03:00 But I think there's some things that if you want to be 2:03:03 really honest and consistent, 2:03:05 if you're someone who calls everyone out, 2:03:07 call him out also. 2:03:09 And by the way, before I started this podcast, 2:03:11 you know I had a creative brief. 2:03:13 I sent it to him also and asked for feedback. 2:03:15 And he helped me out. 2:03:17 He gave me a lot of feedback on that, a lot. 2:03:19 And I thank him. 2:03:21 I really appreciate that he did that, by the way. 2:03:23 He was really nice. 2:03:25 He answered like instant, by the way. 2:03:27 So I don't want to say that, but he's a super cool guy. 2:03:29 He's a super cool guy. 2:03:31 But he, again, all of a sudden, 2:03:33 he's kind of crazy. 2:03:35 Max Keiser is like, you know, 2:03:37 he's a loose cannon. 2:03:39 He's like crazy. 2:03:41 Don't you think? 2:03:43 What do you like about Stacy? 2:03:45 There's nothing entertaining. 2:03:47 She's cool, but she's not like entertaining. 2:03:49 I don't know. 2:03:51 She's more like chilled out. 2:03:53 Yeah, exactly. 2:03:54 That was the problem. 2:03:56 I like Max because I definitely... 2:03:58 Max, sometimes I'm like, yeah, you definitely are. 2:04:00 And he's like, yeah, I don't know. 2:04:01 I mean, I think sometimes, again, 2:04:03 if it's in on the joke, it's good. 2:04:06 Like when he was doing with Peter Schiff recently. 2:04:08 Did you see that? 2:04:10 I know the old clip where he starts yelling, 2:04:12 and you're wrong. 2:04:14 Yeah, exactly. 2:04:16 Well, that was only like five days ago. 2:04:18 What do you mean? 2:04:20 That wasn't that long ago. 2:04:22 Okay, well, you know what? 2:04:24 Here's the thing right now. 2:04:26 I am a person who yells a lot. 2:04:28 And I think a lot of people are going to think 2:04:29 it's like 100% self-awareness. 2:04:31 He's like totally in on the joke. 2:04:33 Like the joke is like, 2:04:35 I'm just going to be a crazy person. 2:04:37 And it won't matter because the government 2:04:39 can't close down Bitcoin. 2:04:41 I'm not going to get any hate from this. 2:04:43 So it'll just be funny. 2:04:45 And it was funny. 2:04:47 I think he pumps it up for the show. 2:04:49 But I think there are moments in his life 2:04:51 when his blood raises and he starts doing it. 2:04:53 I think that's how he is in real life. 2:04:55 I don't think you can fake that. 2:04:57 He does it too well. 2:04:58 And again, as a person who I do that also sometimes people might think I'm performing, but it's like, no, even if I'm going bread, I'll do that. 2:05:02 We were at a big table when there was like maybe like 18 or so, maybe like 12 people. I did actually have dinner with him once. 2:05:09 And he did not become a crazy, crazy yelling person. That's n equals one data point. I don't know. 2:05:15 Okay, maybe I'm wrong. And I'm predicting. Fair enough. Okay. But I called him out. Anyway, I called him out before the show. 2:05:23 And I posted it on your blog. Yeah, of course. I don't know. I think it's fine. I don't think I did anything bad or something like that. 2:05:29 So wait, what did Roger do? What did Roger do to get redemption in Alex's book? 2:05:37 It's very simple, man. Think, take a step back, go meditate. No, I'm kidding. Take a step back and just be honest. 2:05:46 Be honest that you're wrong, but you have to reach that conclusion yourself, you know, and be like, look, I was wrong about this and I was wrong about that. 2:05:51 Not a fake apology or something like that. And that is the thing. He doesn't even need to go and say it out loud on Twitter. 2:05:56 He needs to do that with himself, because as soon as you do it yourself, your behavior changes and it's going to come out. 2:06:01 So that's the thing. Now, we did say it was wrong about Craig. That's right. And about hard forks. 2:06:10 There's a lot of things, man, like almost everything right now he's saying is a lie of a lie of a lie. So there's a lot of things he has to come. 2:06:18 But he's saying he doesn't have to do anything and whatever. I don't know if he needs to do anything or something like that. 2:06:23 But, you know, he has to do it for this thing. What he needs to understand is that for himself, not for anyone else. 2:06:32 Because, again, he's living in some lies there. And, yeah, well, I don't know, actually, that much, you know, I mean, I don't know. 2:06:39 Like, what do I know about anything? But if I had to guess, I probably know more than most people, everyone who will listen to this show, maybe. 2:06:46 So if I had to guess, I would say that he really thought, you know, he probably thought that Craig was Satoshi. 2:06:55 Like around because this was like 2017 when BCH was started. And he thought, you know, you just like you have all these people telling you that you're right. 2:07:06 You know, when you're rich, they're always like sucking up to you. Yeah. And so. 2:07:13 Afraid to contradict you. Right. And so they. 2:07:21 You know, you just like have this vision in your head, like, oh, I've got Satoshi on my side. He's going to sell us one million coins. 2:07:27 You know, and it's going to be like this giant victory. And then it's like year after year, like month after month, you know. 2:07:35 But I think. What do you think? Like, I don't know. Like, I have no idea what's going on with this, but I have noticed and I started tweeting about this, that it's getting the BCH to BTC price is getting close to 1%, which for me is like, that's like the death knell, right? Or is it not? I don't know. 2:07:53 I mean, it's got something has to be the death. There has to be something. 2:07:55 It will. But I do want to say that I want to thank Roger for that. Thanks for all the free fish to make a geeky reference here, because boy, those coins were good. 2:08:04 And let me tell you what, when I showed people I could get coins out of thin air, they thought I'm a fucking magician when I got them 10%. And I got a cut out of that. They kicked the bed upstairs. 2:08:14 So, Roger, thanks for all the free fish, if you're listening by any chance. But other than that, man, look, this whole Satoshi Crate thing, dude, that's a fucking IQ test and you fucking failed. And that's on you, motherfucker. 2:08:27 All right. Look, there's no way when things like this come around with Satoshi and whatever, you don't touch it with a 10 foot pole. That's what it is, right? 2:08:36 You have enough information to understand why that could never be the case. And there's something going on there. And you're either getting on it to fool people or you run away from it. Simple, simple, son. 2:08:46 So, yeah. Again, that's the thing. It's not like there's one thing. I'm sure if I try really hard, maybe I can find a clip of you online where you're disingenuous or something, but not in a big way, but just because you're human and I'll be like, Paul, what about this? 2:09:00 And maybe if I sit you down and I push harder, okay, whatever. And that's fine. But that's probably one clip out of a hundred or whatever. With Roger, there's not one clip I can find on there where he wasn't disingenuous. Do you understand the ratio that's happening there? 2:09:14 So, again, it's like... 2:09:15 Not really, but I sort of understand what you're trying to say. 2:09:18 Well... 2:09:20 Okay. Okay, let me tell you about this. 2:09:25 So, I have a name for the episode. Roger Ver washing scenes. This is your confession episode. 2:09:34 Didn't I have a better phrase before? Like, whatever. 2:09:37 I don't know. Go on. 2:09:40 What I was going to say is when you learn economics, it's like alienating. 2:09:46 I can't relate to that, but go on. I'll take your word. 2:09:50 Because you learn all these things, like the minimum wage is actually evil and hurts the poor. 2:09:55 And it was invented by trade unions to steal money from people. 2:10:01 That's a paraphrase, but you learn all these very counterintuitive, bizarre things. 2:10:10 The more exports you have, the more imports you have, the better everyone is. 2:10:16 It doesn't really matter. Buy American is a fake thing. All that stuff is fake. 2:10:21 So, it's very alienating and weird. 2:10:24 And then with Bitcoin, it's extra weird. 2:10:29 Every time you're getting rewarded for taking the big risk, everyone thinks they're wrong. 2:10:38 By the time you get to the Bitcoin cash hard fork, there's been like six of these in a row. 2:10:46 Where it's like, take the big risk, everyone thinks I'm wrong, a trillion dollars. 2:10:52 I understand that. There's a bias there. I understand that. 2:10:56 There's a winner's bias somehow. 2:10:58 So, that's just my explanation. 2:11:01 I think that is a big component to it. 2:11:03 But see, this is what I'm trying to tell you, Paul. 2:11:05 He has a sin. He sinned against himself by not being honest. 2:11:11 That's the problem. He forgot how to be honest. 2:11:13 I wonder how miserable he is. 2:11:16 I don't know. 2:11:18 I think his life is great, though. I think he's living a movie-style life, if you ask me. 2:11:22 No, but that's what I think. I think BCH is making his life miserable. 2:11:26 That's what I'm saying. 2:11:27 I think so. 2:11:28 I don't know if that's the case. 2:11:30 I don't know. 2:11:32 We don't know. We don't know anything. We shouldn't even really talk about it, probably. 2:11:35 But, it's like, I don't know. 2:11:39 What I do know, though, is that I like the idea of there being a competitor that keeps BTC honest. 2:11:47 And I wish that that competitor actually existed. 2:11:49 And I would love for it to be a hard fork of BTC, so that I don't even suffer if it wins. 2:11:55 I could just hold both coins. 2:11:57 So, that would be something that I would like. 2:12:00 Is there a competitor to the Internet? 2:12:03 I think there is. 2:12:05 I think all the stuff, radio, newspapers, or whatever, it's not a viable competitor at all. 2:12:10 No, no, no. I'm saying, like, that's not a competitor. 2:12:13 That's like something else that existed before. 2:12:15 So, the Internet came about. 2:12:17 And someone said, like, I can make the Internet better, the separate network and whatever. 2:12:21 There's no such thing, Paul. 2:12:23 Because in communication protocols… 2:12:25 No, I agree. I'm the big network. 2:12:27 I'm always talking about network effects on Twitter. 2:12:29 Right. 2:12:30 You're stealing all my lines. 2:12:31 What are you talking about? 2:12:32 I'm just saying… 2:12:33 No, because it's not… 2:12:35 I don't think it makes sense to have a competitor. 2:12:37 That's what I'm trying to tell you. 2:12:38 I don't think… I don't see an environment… 2:12:40 But competition is the only, like… 2:12:42 Bitcoin is not a finished project, like the Internet is. 2:12:45 No, but dude, no, no, no. 2:12:47 There's just no, it's like… 2:12:49 Only through competition can there be real progress. 2:12:52 Do you agree that Bitcoin is a communication protocol? 2:12:55 Yes. 2:12:58 And abstracting on top of that is the concept of value and movement and whatever. 2:13:03 Okay. 2:13:04 Now, the thing with communication protocols… 2:13:06 Yes, they're information. 2:13:08 So, they have to be one way. 2:13:09 They can't be if there's some other way. 2:13:11 Right, and I think this is what a lot of people didn't understand about the hard fork 2:13:14 is that the hard fork inherently destroys the whole thing. 2:13:17 And that's why it's not helpful. 2:13:19 So, that's why I don't think we're going to have a competitor, Paul. 2:13:21 Now, I, again, I'm not that technical to understand all the arguments. 2:13:26 But you could… 2:13:28 Well, yeah, of course, the hope with sidechains is that the competitors would be within. 2:13:34 It would bring that competition into the protocol itself so that it would never disturb the protocol. 2:13:42 But there would still be people competing to write the best software, which is what I think is the best. 2:13:46 But, so, we don't have that yet. 2:13:50 But here's the thing. 2:13:51 I don't think that it's, you know, BTC could lose. 2:13:56 I don't know. 2:13:57 It would be hard. 2:13:58 It's difficult to imagine how. 2:14:00 But I think… 2:14:01 I can't… 2:14:02 It still could. 2:14:03 I really can't see it, Paul. 2:14:04 I can't see it. 2:14:05 And, again, I thought about these things a lot of times over the years, even at the beginning. 2:14:10 Now, it doesn't even matter. 2:14:11 That was too stupid then. 2:14:13 And even now, more recently, like, I just can't see it. 2:14:16 I mean, this whole anti-fragile and this whole… 2:14:18 Look, as much as we make fun of the dick-sucking maximalists on Twitter, the basis of the arguments, they're really solid. 2:14:26 And those are the reasons why we're not going to have any of them. 2:14:28 They're not wrong about that. 2:14:29 Because those arguments weren't, like, made by the people on Twitter, which we think are stupid. 2:14:33 I know, right. 2:14:34 They were made up. 2:14:35 They just came up about, like, a science base. 2:14:38 I hope I am having that moment of clarity and being honest right now and seeing that there's no way to see – to have a competition. 2:14:46 You can try, by the way. 2:14:48 And I think people should. 2:14:50 I think it is important that people could try and copy Bitcoin because that's how you know it's open for real. 2:14:56 But I don't see it, man. 2:14:57 I don't think it's going to happen. 2:14:58 Now, I don't know why the dynamics… 2:15:00 You think people should try but not large block. 2:15:02 No, no, no, no, no, no. 2:15:04 Sorry. 2:15:05 You misunderstood me. 2:15:06 I think people should try. 2:15:08 You don't have to support it. 2:15:10 Any individual competitor. 2:15:11 But I think, like, if you're at the level we are having this conversation, like, we have enough information to be like, that's stupid. 2:15:17 That's what I'm trying to say. 2:15:18 But people should try whatever they want. 2:15:20 I think if you say that you shouldn't start your own coin… 2:15:24 Sorry. 2:15:25 I had to reach for something. 2:15:26 Yeah. 2:15:27 If you say you shouldn't start your own coin, it's like – I was like, no, the thing you should say is, like, start your own coin. 2:15:31 But you're going to be stupid and you're going to be crazy. 2:15:32 But you can't say don't start. 2:15:33 That's the thing. 2:15:34 You cannot say that. 2:15:35 If you're saying that, you're contradicting the idea of Bitcoin because the code is open source and you're supposed to copy it if you want to or do whatever the fuck you want with it. 2:15:43 That's open source. 2:15:44 So that's why – but that's my stance on that. 2:15:49 Okay. 2:15:50 Okay. 2:15:51 That was a long tangent on – what did you mean, like, piano playing versus guitar people? 2:15:57 Piano people versus guitar people. 2:15:59 That's kind of you and me, I guess. 2:16:00 But I don't know. 2:16:01 What are you going to say about that? 2:16:02 I'm curious. 2:16:04 Well, okay. 2:16:05 When you learn to play – as you were talking before about learning to play the guitar, you just get the guitar and there's this dream and you just do it. 2:16:13 You have this interaction, intimate reaction, interaction with the guitar. 2:16:18 But when you learn to play the piano, there's, like, a piano teacher and you have to, like, learn scales and chords and things. 2:16:25 And there's, like, a wrong way to play the piano. 2:16:29 So my theory is that there's, like, the piano people end up like type A perfectionists who are obsessive and into, like, I don't know all the words. 2:16:43 But the guitar people are more, like, freewheeling and more fun maybe, but maybe less reliable. 2:16:52 And so that's my thing about that. 2:16:55 And you play the guitar and I play the piano. 2:16:57 Well, let me tell you what, though. 2:16:59 I think that – do you know who Jerry Lee Lewis is? 2:17:03 Yes, but I'm blanking on the person. 2:17:07 Jerry Lee Lewis is the guy who has the song Goodness, Gracious, Great Boast of Heart. 2:17:11 He's the original king of boogie. 2:17:13 Now, the thing is, like, fun fact about him, he married his first cousin while she was a minor and he was really old. 2:17:19 Fun fact, kids. 2:17:20 And by the way, Chuck Berry, a bit of rock and roll trivia for you, he was a fucking weirdo. 2:17:25 He used to spy on women taking P.E. in his room. 2:17:30 Anyway, let's get back on track. 2:17:31 So the thing is, like, I don't think that's what you said is true. 2:17:36 That's not a distinction between piano and guitar people because Jerry Lee Lewis didn't have a teacher. 2:17:41 There are a lot of people who never had a teacher. 2:17:43 And there's so many people that I know with a guitar that never – that had a teacher and they played the classical music into death. 2:17:51 I don't think the distinction is between guitar and piano. 2:17:54 I think the distinction – there's some other distinction. 2:17:56 And some people are like – 2:17:58 I'm just throwing it out there. 2:17:59 Because I'm imagining, like, practicing the scales and you have, like, an older person looking over you, play these scales. 2:18:06 And I'm like – I don't know. 2:18:08 With the guitar, they just go right to the chords. 2:18:10 You play your four chords, you're playing a song, you're having fun, like, 20 minutes in. 2:18:13 That's not really true. 2:18:15 I started playing guitar by myself, but at some point I went to this teacher, right? 2:18:18 There was this place where you could learn. 2:18:20 And I was lucky because I got this really cool teacher. 2:18:23 He was, like, the greatest guy. 2:18:25 He used to make jokes. 2:18:26 He used to give us alcohol to drink. 2:18:27 And we were still underage, by the way. 2:18:29 He would tell us how he used to fuck women. 2:18:31 It was a super nice guy. 2:18:33 I see. 2:18:34 And you modeled your life after him. 2:18:36 No, no, no. 2:18:37 But there were other teachers. 2:18:39 I was crazy even for that. 2:18:40 But there were other teachers that were doing exactly the thing you were saying, even at guitar. 2:18:43 Now, for whatever reason, again, I also knew how to play before that. 2:18:47 And that's why he was, like, okay with me, like, slacking out. 2:18:50 But the other people will start from zero. 2:18:52 So, I don't know. 2:18:53 I guess it depends how you get exposed to it. 2:18:54 But let me tell you what. 2:18:55 It was the same thing with math, though. 2:18:57 When I started learning math by myself, I liked it so much. 2:19:02 I couldn't be more happy about anything else. 2:19:04 And then when I went to school and whatever, I didn't like it anymore, man. 2:19:08 And then there was a period after high school where I started, like, learning it by myself. 2:19:13 So, I think you can do that with almost everything. 2:19:15 And you have to find that teacher. 2:19:18 I haven't had teachers. 2:19:19 Lost a lesson, dude. 2:19:21 I just want to say, we haven't cracked the thing on how to best teach children. 2:19:26 Because it seems like the schools don't do a good job. 2:19:29 But it also seems like a lot of people, left to their own devices, don't. 2:19:35 I think children need some structure and direction. 2:19:39 You know, the U.S. public school system is not. 2:19:42 I have the best story for this. 2:19:44 I don't know. 2:19:45 We haven't quite figured it out as a society. 2:19:47 What we currently do isn't very good. 2:19:49 That's very true. 2:19:50 But let me tell you when I really liked learning stuff. 2:19:53 So, I'm really good at math. 2:19:55 I get into high school. 2:19:56 They teach us Borland-Paschal. 2:19:58 I don't know if you've ever used Borland-Paschal. 2:19:59 It has begin and end and colon. 2:20:01 Anyway, terrible language. 2:20:03 And Borland-Paschal didn't even have N64. 2:20:05 Anyway, that was a crazy thing. 2:20:07 So, I started learning those things. 2:20:09 And it was very interesting. 2:20:10 And then I started going to the Olympiads. 2:20:12 And all the people that I worked with, smart people, no one was fun there. 2:20:16 That really baffled me. 2:20:17 Because you can never make jokes with them. 2:20:18 They wouldn't smoke. 2:20:19 They wouldn't drink. 2:20:20 They wouldn't do anything. 2:20:21 I'm the craziest kid there. 2:20:22 But there's this one kid, which everyone talked about, who was fucking nuts. 2:20:27 By the way, this was like this 18-year-old kid who was ripped, literally ripped. 2:20:31 He talked like he was from the hood. 2:20:34 But he was acing any scientific thing you could talk about, right? 2:20:39 And I heard about this guy. 2:20:41 And somehow, for some circumstance, we both go to the same contest. 2:20:44 And I walk up to him and I was like, his name was Popescu, like Misha. 2:20:47 And I go like… 2:20:48 It probably was him. 2:20:49 No, it wasn't him. 2:20:50 It wasn't him 100%. 2:20:51 And I go like, dude, I heard you're a crazy motherfucker and you drink and whatever, 2:20:55 but you're also smart. 2:20:56 And he's like, yeah, what is the deal? 2:20:58 I was like, I want to be your friend. 2:21:00 And we became friends ever since then. 2:21:02 We went to the same college. 2:21:03 But here's the thing about this guy. 2:21:04 At that contest, dude, he would teach us all kinds of stupid algorithms, like Dijkstra 2:21:10 and all those things. 2:21:11 But he would do it in a fun way. 2:21:12 He would always relate to going to fuck a hooker. 2:21:14 Or he would always relate to like… 2:21:16 He would say Euler invented the graphs because he wanted to fuck more hookers. 2:21:20 He would always be something sexual. 2:21:22 And he was always fun. 2:21:23 And you would go on the street and he would pick up chicks. 2:21:26 But then he would start talking about binary search. 2:21:28 It was crazy. 2:21:29 Like, you wouldn't want to get away from this guy. 2:21:31 He was so crazy. 2:21:33 And that's when I actually fell in love in computers because I was like, shit, I want 2:21:38 to be like this guy. 2:21:39 He was my friend for a lot of years. 2:21:41 We were in the dorm rooms and… 2:21:42 Oh, he's the first guy who told me you should do a business because we would have these 2:21:46 science assignments, you know, and we would load Linux. 2:21:48 And he would come into my room and he would break the door open. 2:21:51 He would, like, smoke a cigarette. 2:21:52 He would be fuming because he's like… 2:21:55 He would start fuming and he would be like, why are all these people starting the business 2:21:59 and why we're not? 2:22:00 And he would get mad about it. 2:22:01 And he would rattle me up about, we need to start our own company and do those things. 2:22:05 And then he would do this. 2:22:07 He would start weird conversations. 2:22:09 He would be like, why don't we have wheels instead of legs? 2:22:13 And he would always talk about all these weird things. 2:22:15 And I learned a lot from that guy. 2:22:16 And that was the best thing. 2:22:18 I learned so much from that dude. 2:22:20 And that was the most enjoyable thing I ever learned anything about computer science. 2:22:24 So that's how I think anyone, everyone should do it. 2:22:27 Not the same style like that. 2:22:29 It's not for everyone. 2:22:30 But it has to be in this very relaxed way. 2:22:33 And again, it's like, it's always a story. 2:22:35 It's always fun. 2:22:36 It's always real. 2:22:37 It's like the same thing Feynman did. 2:22:39 There's always a back story. 2:22:40 There's always some. 2:22:41 Definitely the fun criterion is important. 2:22:45 Yeah. 2:22:46 And yeah, there's a great video about this. 2:22:48 We can maybe link to one of my favorite people, David Deutsch. 2:22:52 He does a better job of explaining it. 2:22:54 But I can maybe try to put my own spin on it, which is that. 2:23:00 Well, there's a lot of things about fun that I think are interesting. 2:23:04 One is that the fun is only loyal to you. 2:23:08 So like if you're having fun, you know that you're not doing something for someone else. 2:23:14 Which is, it's harder than it looks to figure out why you're doing things, I think. 2:23:20 So the fun criterion helps with that. 2:23:22 But fun also is. 2:23:26 It's kind of like all the pieces are working together. 2:23:31 So you have a lot of what are called these inexplicit theories. 2:23:36 Theories that you can't talk about, but you're aware of them. 2:23:38 You just don't have the right word. 2:23:41 It's like how you know how to ride a bike. 2:23:44 You ride a bike. 2:23:46 A lot of it is just that if the bike is moving forward, you can correct by changing the steering if it's leaning too far to one side. 2:23:52 But people don't like intuitively articulate that with words. 2:23:56 They just kind of know how to ride a bike without knowing any language or anything. 2:24:00 But there are also subconscious theories that you feel, you have feelings, but you don't even really aware of it in time. 2:24:08 Until you've been feeling it for like five or six minutes. 2:24:11 And it was subconscious before. 2:24:13 And then it only becomes, you only become consciously aware. 2:24:17 Oh, I'm feeling really irritated. 2:24:19 I'm in a bad mood. 2:24:20 I'm hungry. 2:24:21 You don't realize until later. 2:24:22 I'm horny. 2:24:23 Yeah. 2:24:24 Yeah. 2:24:26 And fun is like when all this is in alignment. 2:24:31 Fun is a key that there's nothing broken in the circuit in your brain. 2:24:38 All the things that you believe in are trying to do. 2:24:42 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, actually. 2:24:44 Yeah. 2:24:46 People just think of fun as like a nice thing to experience. 2:24:49 But fun is actually a clue about how you should live your life. 2:24:55 It sounds kind of weird when you put it like that. 2:24:57 But think about it with Richard Feynman and these other people. 2:25:01 If something isn't fun, you shouldn't do it anymore. 2:25:03 But there's some reason why it's not fun. 2:25:05 Your brain will know. 2:25:06 And the reason doesn't have to be explicit. 2:25:09 You don't have to articulate it. 2:25:11 It's very worrisome sometimes to try to articulate everything. 2:25:15 Yeah. 2:25:16 I think a lot of your theories don't involve words. 2:25:20 So when people ask you to explain why you do this, why you do that, 2:25:23 you don't always know how. 2:25:25 Because almost everything that you know is not explicit. 2:25:30 And a lot of it is not even conscious. 2:25:33 You don't even know why you do these things. 2:25:35 Your brain knows why, but you don't know why. 2:25:37 I'm so happy you said this. 2:25:39 Because I'm okay with sharing this. 2:25:42 I was in a meeting with David Deutsch. 2:25:46 I closed down my company last week. 2:25:48 And it was exactly like that. 2:25:51 I couldn't articulate it. 2:25:53 I did afterwards rationalize it. 2:25:54 But I was like, I need to stop this right now. 2:25:56 In the video, sure. 2:25:58 It's not like 20 minutes. 2:25:59 It's great. 2:26:00 Everyone should watch it. 2:26:01 And David Deutsch has the nameless dread. 2:26:03 You feel the nameless dread. 2:26:09 Oh, my God. 2:26:10 Exactly. 2:26:11 But he was trying to say, you don't know. 2:26:13 Sometimes you don't know. 2:26:17 Okay, maybe this post office was further than I thought. 2:26:20 And it's going to be closed by the time I get there. 2:26:22 So should you go faster? 2:26:24 Or maybe it was a mistake to go to the post office. 2:26:26 Should I turn around? 2:26:27 You don't know what to do. 2:26:29 But he's saying when you're having fun, you know that you have nailed it. 2:26:33 100%. 2:26:35 I did all of that for the last year of my life. 2:26:36 And I couldn't tell why. 2:26:37 And I was trying to fix it with different reasons. 2:26:39 That's 100%. 2:26:40 But you know what? 2:26:41 I like the way you phrased it at the beginning. 2:26:43 I think that's such a good way to put it. 2:26:45 It's like when you're having fun, you're doing something for yourself. 2:26:48 I think that's the most important thing if we could point one out. 2:26:50 Because a lot of times when you go to school, man, your parents tell you to go there. 2:26:55 And they're not telling you to learn math because it's cool to understand reality and map it and do these things. 2:27:02 And they told you go there because you need to get a job or something. 2:27:05 So I think that's really important. 2:27:07 You have to do it for yourself somehow. 2:27:09 That's where the fun begins at least, you know? 2:27:12 Yeah. 2:27:14 Everything else. 2:27:21 Yeah, because there's a lot of things that motivate you. 2:27:23 And it's hard to figure out what they are, honestly. 2:27:33 Yeah, I agree. 2:27:36 You mostly don't know why you do certain things. 2:27:38 Yeah. 2:27:41 I don't know. 2:27:42 I think that goes to this whole, like, you know, self-exploration. 2:27:46 And every time you hear that, it's like kind of an ooey context. 2:27:49 But it's hard to really know what you want to do. 2:27:52 But you have to go on this path and somehow figure it out. 2:27:55 But, yeah, I don't know. 2:27:57 I still think, like, it's not necessarily specifically about what it is. 2:28:00 It's not like, oh, you need to play guitar or piano. 2:28:03 It's, oh, you need to play music. 2:28:05 But you have to, like, be comfortable about it. 2:28:07 I've always was made to play guitar. 2:28:09 Probably even if I would have played drums, it would have been roughly the same thing, you know? 2:28:12 I think there's also that aspect of it sometimes. 2:28:17 What about that guy, the jacked guy who was all the math and the hooker explanations? 2:28:23 What about him? 2:28:24 Guitar, piano, or nothing. 2:28:26 He never played an instrument. 2:28:27 But here's the thing with him. 2:28:29 He, as much as crazy as he was, by the way, he was my best friend for a long time. 2:28:33 Because we hang out almost every day. 2:28:34 And he was my idol. 2:28:36 He seems like a cool guy, yeah. 2:28:37 He's really cool. 2:28:38 And he was so smart. 2:28:40 But when it came the moment to quit college and he was like, okay, now all this thing that I'm seeing, fuck this. 2:28:47 I'm going to take the biggest risk. 2:28:48 I'm going to disappoint everyone in my fucking life because I know this is bullshit. 2:28:52 He couldn't do that. 2:28:54 He stayed in college and got a job. 2:28:56 Interesting. 2:28:57 So, and again, it's like. 2:28:59 But it was a good job though, right? 2:29:02 I mean, everyone who finished computer science in Romania earned, like, a lot of money. 2:29:06 Most of the guys I hang out with worked at Google. 2:29:08 So, it's not like, again, they probably have good lives right now. 2:29:11 But I can promise you they're not fulfilled and they don't feel happy about it. 2:29:16 I don't know this guy. 2:29:17 I didn't talk with him in a long time. 2:29:18 Maybe I should try to connect with him. 2:29:20 Yeah, but it's possible that many of them spend zero minutes per week thinking about crypto Twitter. 2:29:29 You know what the thing is? 2:29:30 Like, I think about this often. 2:29:32 Like, dude, when I got into Bitcoin, literally, if you ever talk with me more than five minutes, you got Bitcoin from me. 2:29:37 Think about that. 2:29:38 That's how crazy I was, right? 2:29:39 So, everyone in college almost got Bitcoin from me at some point in their life. 2:29:43 And everyone knew this was the thing because you see how crazy I get about something. 2:29:46 And this was like a part of my life. 2:29:48 Yes, you are crazy. 2:29:49 So, you have to imagine that right now when this Bitcoin thing is going on. 2:29:53 I think everyone remembers me right now. 2:29:55 I wonder why that fucking cucksucker. 2:29:57 Yeah, I also wonder, like, don't you ever wonder about, like, I mean, everyone must wonder about, like, resentment or whatever, you know? 2:30:06 Don't you ever wonder about that? 2:30:08 Like, do people hate you because you were into Bitcoin and you... 2:30:12 I mean, yikes. 2:30:14 I have... 2:30:15 You didn't do anything wrong. 2:30:16 You just discovered Bitcoin and you're like, this is great. 2:30:19 I don't know if... 2:30:20 And then people don't believe you because, of course, it's crazy to abandon... 2:30:23 Monetary systems is, like, absurd on its face. 2:30:28 And there's no way they could know that it might actually be possible. 2:30:32 Most people don't know anything about the current... 2:30:34 The way, you know, the U.S. dollar works or the U.S. banking system works at all. 2:30:39 So, of course, I think it's crazy. 2:30:41 And I think you're going to be trying to pay... 2:30:43 You're going to be on a date trying to pay with Bitcoin. 2:30:46 It's going to be humiliating. 2:30:47 That's the image that people have in their mind. 2:30:49 Yeah, I... 2:30:51 And then you have to make all this money, more money than they'll ever have in their entire life. 2:30:55 Yeah, the thing is with those things, like, I don't keep contact with almost no one back home or whatever. 2:31:01 I don't even consider it home. 2:31:03 But I don't think they resent me. 2:31:05 I don't think... 2:31:06 I think there are other reasons probably people resented me. 2:31:08 And it was just because it was direct or very straight where I would say things how they are, like... 2:31:12 And sometimes I just... 2:31:13 That's why I think people resent me from college. 2:31:15 But I don't think anyone resents me out of that because I... 2:31:17 All of us... 2:31:18 I think... 2:31:19 I hope not. 2:31:20 But I always worked hard and always took this amount, big amount of risk. 2:31:24 And they... 2:31:25 And, like, when there were times when I didn't have where to sleep or something or didn't have money to eat food for a week or something. 2:31:30 They had shelter and whatever. 2:31:32 So I think it's hard for them to resent me because whenever I was my kind of... 2:31:36 They were in such a better position than me all the time, you know? 2:31:39 So I don't think they had anything to resent. 2:31:41 Or maybe even more they would resent me now. 2:31:43 Because you're just like a crazy person who's one minute living high and the next minute being crushed under the wheel of fortune. 2:31:54 I don't think it was ever like that. 2:31:55 It was just that... 2:31:57 I don't know. 2:31:58 I don't know. 2:31:59 It wasn't, like, from minute to minute. 2:32:00 But there were, like, very high and lows. 2:32:02 Yeah. 2:32:03 Cool. 2:32:04 Great. 2:32:05 All right. 2:32:06 This is a wrap then. 2:32:07 Oh. 2:32:08 This has gone for a while. 2:32:10 Yeah. 2:32:11 So, anyway. 2:32:12 Don't forget to try to find the tweet and retweet and get them likes. 2:32:17 Smash that like button and all the stuff. 2:32:20 Because you get the fucking signed stuff. 2:32:22 It's signed by those famous people. 2:32:24 And it has my name on it. 2:32:26 Double. 2:32:29 Double penetration. 2:32:30 Yeah. 2:32:31 Double penetration. 2:32:32 And Paul is going to pay for the shipment. 2:32:34 I will pay for the shipment. 2:32:36 And we'll do it in a convoluted Bitcoin way. 2:32:38 Whatever convoluted Bitcoin way you can find. 2:32:41 We're probably going to hire one of those hookers to be chained with a book on her back and knock at your door or something and deliver it in her mouth or something. 2:32:49 Like, pull a cart that has this stuff in the back. 2:32:54 Okay. 2:32:55 Anyway. 2:32:56 Until next time, motherfuckers. 2:32:57 Fuck all the hookers. 2:32:59 Do all the drugs. 2:33:00 Sell your coins. 2:33:01 Be on a religious person. 2:33:03 And keep slinging big. 2:33:05 Yeah. 2:33:06 And don't think about Bitcoin. 2:33:08 Don't tell your friends about Bitcoin. 2:33:11 Don't tell anyone that you own Bitcoin. 2:33:13 Just buy Bitcoin and don't do anything else. 2:33:16 That's a wrap.
