0:00 Okay, so I don't know like what to do because like so who here has never heard of Drivechain or BIP300 at all? Like that would be great. 0:20 So it's an idea for this proposal with Bitcoin that you would just be able to send coins to a completely different piece of software and get them back. 0:35 And in that way, if someone says, someone asks you a question like, well, Bitcoin is great. 0:41 Like some noob or someone that you, some random guy off the street, they say, well, Bitcoin is great, but can it do DeFi or can it do whatever? CK snarks. 0:51 You just say, yes, it can because of BIP300. 0:54 And you just stop talking. 0:57 And because with BIP300, they can do whatever they want. 1:01 They create their own piece of software and then you have to send the coin. 1:04 It starts with zero Bitcoins on it and people have to voluntarily send the coins over. 1:10 So you have this world of competing development teams. 1:17 You don't have the world that we have in Bitcoin today where everyone kind of talks things out and then tries to agree on what's best. 1:24 You have this world where all these different people compete and they're accountable to the users. 1:29 And if the users don't send coins over, then the project is a failure. 1:35 So that's kind of the idea. 1:38 If you don't know anything about it at all, we could do it like drivechain.info has like an enormous amount of information that slowly keep adding more and more stuff to over time. 1:48 And Drivechain is basically BIP300 plus BIP301, which is distinct line merge mining. 1:57 And so we have software on the site that you can download. 2:01 We even have Windows versions, Windows EXE versions. 2:05 So you have no excuse for not downloading it and examining it for yourself to see how it works, which is the best way to learn about anything. 2:13 So I don't know. 2:14 You know, we said like Drivechain Q&A, but half the people have never heard of it at all. 2:18 So I don't know exactly what that means. 2:20 But those of you who have heard of it, I get lots of questions. 2:24 That's literally where I was before I was today. 2:26 I was at the speaker dinner for the speakers at Bitcoin 2021. 2:31 And people were coming up to me and asking me Drivechain questions the whole time. 2:34 So that's what I was just doing. 2:37 Through Socratic questioning, we can slowly learn about Drivechain. 2:41 I think it is better if people ask the question. 2:44 OK, Austin, yes. 2:45 So if you have this base chain and then you have this sidechain, how can the miners and the nodes on the base chain know anything what's happening on the second layer chain? 2:57 And how do we know when the withdrawal is happening if it's going in the right spot? 3:01 If it's being withdrawn in the right CX node. 3:04 You know what I'm saying? 3:07 The design is the layers only go in one direction. 3:10 So you can ignore all the upper layers. 3:13 So if you wanted to know what's happening on layer two, you download the software and run it. 3:17 And then it will tell you eventually what's happening on layer two. 3:21 What's the mechanics of withdrawing the coins back into layer one where they're safe? 3:25 The trick is what a lot of people don't understand. 3:29 They are better on layer one. 3:31 I agree that there's no parity between layer one and layer two. 3:35 Layer one is better than layer two. 3:37 It's better to not have the coins on layer two because layer two is a risk. 3:41 Layer two also offers the opportunity to do these different things, the rate signatures, CK snarks, whatever. 3:48 So what a lot of people don't understand is that it would be trivial to make it work 100 percent of the time infallibly. 3:58 And you could make it perfect. 4:00 We just said that it was a requirement that everyone who ran Bitcoin Core layer one had to also run layer two. 4:08 You could make it mandatory. 4:10 And then everything would work perfectly. 4:12 But what people don't understand is that that would be easy to do, but that would actually be its own nightmare 4:18 because then you would be beholden to whatever the people on layer two want you to do. 4:22 And they could make the block size an unlimited size or they could have all these crazy ideas, 4:26 stuff involving secret keys that only the government knows and all kinds of other nonsense like that. 4:31 So the trick is actually to try and do some kind of tradeoff where you don't, you don't. 4:41 It is, in fact, possible to ignore layer two as much as possible. 4:45 And yet the people who use layer two still have assurances that they will actually, 4:50 some assurance that they will get their money back. 4:53 They get coins on layer two. 4:54 They will be able to redeem them. 4:56 You have 13 Bitcoin on layer two. 4:58 You'd be able to redeem it for 13 Bitcoin on layer one. 5:01 So your question is very long, but we have another question. 5:04 I'm just going to just cut you off right there because it's a bad attitude when you ask the question. 5:10 Very disingenuous, disingenuous enthusiasm. 5:16 So we're going to the next question in row number two. 5:20 I think we were speaking a lot about RSK and MikroTik. 5:24 So I guess a good way to go into Drivechain is how you compare it or how it doesn't compare or how it doesn't complement. 5:32 Yes. Sergio actually wrote an entire BIP for Drivechain and coded an implementation in 2016, 5:40 long before Donald Trump was elected president. 5:43 It was like a million, it was like a gajillion years ago. 5:45 But the thing is, Ethereum is a good example because you have these two things. 5:50 One is people objectively want the new features, which is that people do like the ERC20 token. 5:56 They like the NFT. 5:57 People try to deny it or write it all off as like a scam or something, but I don't agree with that. 6:02 But the other thing is, a lot of what Ethereum is, is a scam. 6:06 And it is mostly a narrative. 6:08 But either way, if you just say we're just going to copy it wholesale, 6:12 you just copy the EVM, the Ethereum virtual machine, into something, then you win either way. 6:18 You have the features and also the marketing is sort of destroyed because people try to shill some narrative about, 6:24 oh, Ethereum has smart contracts. 6:26 But it's like, we have our own BitEthereum that is like an exact clone of that. 6:32 So the mysterious thing with RSK, though, is that they have been working on this since 2015. 6:38 And it's very hard for many people to understand what they have been doing this whole time. 6:43 That's just my opinion. 6:44 I know I speak for a lot of people when I say, like, what exactly is going on over there? 6:49 But they have been working hard on copying the EVM for the last seven years. 6:55 I don't know if that answers your question or not. 6:57 But what was your question, though? 7:00 Yes, it was just to start the conversation. 7:02 The question is, how does it compare to RSK? 7:05 Yeah, well, so you would need it. 7:07 BIP300 is like the bridge from the Layer 1 Bitcoin core to some other arbitrary pieces of software. 7:14 So one of those pieces of software would be RSK. 7:17 So, like, today it's a federated bridge, but with Drivechain it would be Hashrate, Escrow? 7:23 The federation is, I think, a step backward because we had the whole innovation of Bitcoin 7:30 is the dynamic membership multi-signature scheme of mining, 7:35 where you have this thing where it doesn't matter how many meteors fall from the sky 7:40 and destroy 90 percent of the mining equipment. 7:42 You have a way of recovering from that. 7:45 And if 90 percent of the miners get arrested or whatever, 7:48 the system will recover from that error, for lack of a better word. 7:56 So this federation, it's just too easy. 8:01 It's just saying, we're going to just have these people, 8:04 these trusted few people are just better than other people and more trustworthy or whatever. 8:08 And they can steal all the coins at any time. 8:11 That's just not very creative to me. 8:14 And, you know, eventually it has a big scaling problem as well. 8:17 Like, there's a big difference between having $10 million, $100 million. 8:21 You have a federation of 10 people. 8:23 It's $10 million, that's just $1 million per person that you have to bribe. 8:26 But then it goes to $100 million, it goes to $1 billion, it goes to $10 billion. 8:30 Eventually it reaches a point where there's no possible way anyone could resist the temptation to create the scheme. 8:37 So the better thing is to not have the federation at all and to have some process that involves the miners. 8:44 The miners profit more when the network does well. 8:47 The miners are constantly on the hook to be as competitive as possible. 8:52 They're constantly going bankrupt. 8:55 Every two weeks the difficulty resets and fires the bottom 50% performers. 8:59 So they are, like, right in the margin. 9:05 And they're in a very precarious situation, actually. 9:09 And that's what we want. 9:11 We want to keep them in a very precarious situation where they can't cause any trouble for us. 9:14 We want them to be worried about finding cheap electricity and not thinking about anything else. 9:19 But also where if they start to do something wrong, the process will just correct over time without anyone doing anything. 9:27 But if the federation, if it doesn't work, you have to find a new federation. 9:31 So I think that's terrible. 9:33 So someone might have heard about this project before. 9:35 Is it, like, a true sidechain? 9:37 Well, that's what I think. 9:39 Don't say that out loud because, you know, it's a controversial, it's a hot-button issue. 9:43 You can't say that out loud. 9:45 You can only say it, you know, man-to-man. 9:49 But I kind of do think that, but I'm not sure that that's a fair characterization. 9:54 In my head I wonder about, like, where is all the other ideas of this nature. 10:00 So what you would want is for there to be something where it's the rules, 10:04 that the design of the project is being held up, 10:09 or rather I say the merit of the project is being held up by its design, 10:12 which is the design doesn't rely on any individual people to, like, do the work, 10:18 which is the problem with the federation. 10:20 It's flowing from, the virtue is flowing from the people you chose to be in the federation, 10:26 whereas if you caught it up with rules, then it's flowing from the rules. 10:30 And the rules are just objective rules that are independent of what any single individual believes. 10:37 That is how it gets scaled, you know, horizontally and vertically into, like, everyone in the world. 10:46 So that is what I would say, but I don't know how many people would agree with that. 10:53 Real quick, does anyone in the back have any questions? 10:56 We've got a lot of questions up front. 10:57 Anyone in the back? 10:59 All right. 11:00 Go ahead. 11:01 We're in the back for a reason. 11:03 Okay. 11:04 I don't want to go too far. 11:06 Where are things, limitations, processes? 11:08 Oh, yeah. 11:09 This is basically finished. 11:10 So we have the software you can download. 11:12 As I said, we have Windows.exe files. 11:15 It's reached that point. 11:16 So we have a nice GUI. 11:18 You go to drivechain.info slash releases. 11:20 If you just go to drivechain.info, it's the first link. 11:23 And that's what you should do. 11:24 You should not ask other people for their opinion. 11:27 You should just find a virtual box or something where this won't be harmed, you know, 11:33 in case of a crazy person who's going to steal all of your Bitcoin, which most people are like that. 11:38 You just shouldn't run software just because someone tells you to. 11:41 But the best way to learn is to just run the software because we did work pretty hard on the GUI. 11:46 The GUI tries to explain what is happening, and that is the better way. 11:50 I personally know that I didn't have a clue how Bitcoin worked until I downloaded the software for the first time 11:56 and received money from the faucet. 11:58 I waited for the six confirmations. 12:00 I was like, okay, now I have six. 12:02 Now I'm good. 12:03 And I closed the software. 12:04 And then, like, two or three days later, I opened it again. 12:07 I was like, oh, I have like 400 confirmations. 12:09 I was like, what's going on? 12:11 Like, this doesn't make any sense. 12:12 So you can't really understand it until you use it, unfortunately. 12:15 I think that's the best way to learn. 12:18 And learning is the most important thing. 12:20 We have a question all the way in the back. 12:23 How do you think about getting MIPS 300 or the 300 version? 12:29 I think it will take forever. 12:30 Yeah. 12:31 I mean, just look at how – look at the trend. 12:34 Like, there used to be – I made a table and I tweeted about this. 12:37 There used to be, like, every, like, quarter there was, like, a soft fork. 12:40 I'm talking, like, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015. 12:44 And sometimes there were, like, even, like, three or five at the same time. 12:49 And now then there was a long – there was – we had a long, awkward period 12:55 where there was only the one SegWit soft fork that was activated in a very – 12:59 or a very, I'll say, contentious manner in 2017. 13:05 And now we've gone from 2017 to today. 13:07 Still, Taproot has not activated. 13:10 It has – the signaling is in place, but it hasn't actually activated yet. 13:14 So if you just see the trend, it's just lengthening. 13:19 Without anyone planning it this way or without even passing any comment on it, 13:24 you just see that it's become harder and harder to get any change through, 13:29 even one that is not controversial at all, such as Taproot, 13:33 which really there is no controversy at, in my opinion. 13:37 And so this project does – it's just – it's the scale of what it affects. 13:43 It affects all altcoins. 13:46 It affects the people who today decide what does go into Bitcoin Core 13:52 and what does not has enormous effect. 13:55 So it's – I think it would probably take a while. 13:58 And definitely people message me, people running altcoins, 14:02 they message me and they're like, oh, like, 14:04 can I add Drivechain to my project or whatever. 14:06 I think eventually it will be a very different route where you see other projects will add it 14:12 and then everyone will get to see more about how it works. 14:15 And then just slowly it will become kind of – like either it will be proven 14:23 and then it will just like they have – they'll have to add it or it will just not – 14:30 it will be – it will not pan out in which case then obviously they wouldn't add it. 14:33 But I think it will take a while and I don't think it will go through the way it has normally gone, 14:38 which is long discussions, you know, like forever on BitDev's mailing list 14:45 and kind of a quasi guild-like monopolist something process that just like takes a very long time now. 14:55 And a lot of people are worried about how something will look or what it will – 15:00 so I think that's just – I just think it will take a really long time. 15:03 But it will go faster if people download the software and learn about it. 15:07 So if you would like it to go faster, you should learn for yourself exactly what's going on 15:13 and then talk about it. 15:16 We'll do two more questions. 15:19 Like 20, 30, 20, 40. 15:22 Yeah, something like that. 15:24 20 to 300. 15:27 I don't know. 15:28 That's a good question. 15:29 So the other thing is, you know, I haven't actually finished it. 15:31 We keep tinkering with it. 15:33 So that would be the bottleneck obviously. 15:37 It's not until I say that it's done that it could possibly be merged at all. 15:43 Then you'd want to have a big testing suite. 15:46 I would say definitely like not this year. 15:50 I would say – I think it's possible that it could be in 2022. 15:56 I think it's possible. 15:57 I don't know. 15:58 It's also possible that it could be like 2023, 2024, or some other number. 16:05 One more question. 16:08 Yes, you've got one. 16:09 We have somebody else to ask. 16:12 You've got the only one. 16:13 Awesome. 16:15 Is there like an active effort? 16:19 I mean behind BriteChain, is there also like an active effort perhaps to discuss with miners 16:26 that would be sort of like help to the security? 16:30 Well, it's become – ever since the Civil War, it's become a faux pas to talk to miners at all 16:39 or do anything that implies that they have power. 16:42 So that would probably be counterproductive. 16:45 But the – yeah, I know a lot of miners. 16:48 Like the miners just want to be told what to do, honestly. 16:50 In fact, they even said this out loud. 16:52 If you go to the Scaling 2 Hong Kong video in December 2015, which is on YouTube, 16:58 this minor panel, they like have no idea what's going on at all. 17:01 The whole time they were just like, someone just tell us what to do. 17:04 So they're worried about their own concerns about like finding cheap power 17:08 and finding reliable chip hardware and stuff like that. 17:14 So they're not – they're actually the least – and especially with something like this 17:20 where they would gain more transaction fee revenues and potentially a higher Bitcoin exchange rate 17:25 through the coin becoming multipurpose. 17:27 They would be the – they're not the linchpin, so to speak. 17:33 So that wouldn't necessarily do that. 17:36 The better thing is to keep making actual sidechain software. 17:42 Like RSK, a copy of different altcoins that are useful, of which there are a few. 17:47 There are really a few. 17:49 I like David Fork's project, the Sia coin. 17:51 I like Zcash. 17:53 It's good to – things that are good to copy because it would actually be nice to have a feature. 17:59 So that would be nice to get something that people would actually use. 18:03 That would be better. 18:05 The miners, they just – and they don't even want to be in the center of any controversy 18:11 because it ended so badly for them. 18:13 It worked out so well for them before. 18:15 So I'm going to ask the last, last question, which is one of the biggest concerns that people come up with, 18:25 whether you call it concern trolling or legitimate, depends on your perspective, I suppose, 18:29 is like, hey, hashrate escrow is controlled by miners. 18:33 Why would miners just take all the coins if they have really high time preference from a very valuable sidechain? 18:43 I think Drivechain has some interesting answers to that question, 18:50 but my question specifically is can Drivechain security model be improved? 18:58 Like I've sent you the Zendu white paper, which uses like zk-SNARKs to prove that sidechain withdrawals are valid. 19:07 So the payout process isn't actually controlled by miners. 19:11 It's more dependent on cryptography. 19:13 Have you looked at some of these other approaches, and what do you think of that? 19:17 Well, I think anything can always be improved. 19:19 Anyone who says something can't be improved is a very suspicious person. 19:23 So I think anything can be improved. 19:25 I do think that it's misunderstood. 19:27 As I was saying at the very beginning, you could make it so that miners could never steal. 19:34 The whole point of naming it hashrate escrow is to underline the fact that that is possible. 19:39 But that would be its own nightmare. 19:43 You don't actually want that at all. 19:45 So could it be improved? 19:48 Yes, certainly I think it could. 19:50 I don't think, though, that anyone has come up with anything good 19:54 because whatever you come up with will have to be something where either the hammer has to fall somewhere. 20:01 Either you're forcing Layer 1 people to do more work with the zk-SNARK situation. 20:07 If you're going to use them to actually have teeth and do something, then it has to be mandatory on Layer 1. 20:15 But then now you're screwing with Layer 1, which is a terrible thing to do 20:21 because you can't mess with Layer 1. 20:24 People want Bitcoin to be safe from tampering. 20:28 So whatever you like, even if you wanted to do something that was, like, 20:31 a theoretically perfectly cryptographically secure sidechain, 20:36 it would still be the case that this new thing that you come up with is mandatory on Layer 1. 20:40 So whatever you come up with, you have this problem that the hammer has to fall somewhere. 20:46 And so it's intentional to push all of the stuff far away onto the Layer 2 20:51 because I want it to be the case that no one on Bitcoin Core ever suffers at all by the fact that this exists. 20:59 And if anyone suffers, it's the people who choose to opt in and send their coins onto this network, 21:05 like someone putting their coins on Strike or something, on the Lightning Network. 21:10 So they choose to put their coins there. 21:13 Maybe that has some convoluted zk-SNARK thing. 21:16 The problem with the improvements is the data availability. 21:21 So something can be very interesting computationally, but at the end of the day, 21:28 how do you know that, for example, zk-SNARK is working? 21:32 Well, you'd have to get all the transactions and download them and then do computations on them. 21:39 To see that the zk-SNARK is working. 21:41 So maybe the zk-SNARK works really well, but how do you know that zk-SNARK is working in the first place? 21:46 Well, at the end of the day, someone has to just download all the messages and process all of them. 21:50 So it's just like, where is the hammer going to fall? 21:54 That's the idea that I'm going to say. 21:56 So I just say it's all about responsibility. 21:59 If you want the new features, you take the risk. 22:03 The risk is actually really low because in order for the miners to steal the funds, 22:07 you have to have three months of 100% of the blocks consecutively behaving, 22:12 which is, in my view, something that almost can't happen. 22:16 But if you want to opt in, you bear the risk. 22:20 If you don't opt in, then you have no suffering, no inconvenience at all 22:27 because of the fact that 1500 exists on your Bitcoin core account. 22:34 So that's the answer.