0:00 OK, hello. 0:02 Sorry, I was two minutes late today. 0:05 We got Vlad up here. 0:07 Let's make him a co-host, even though all the people 0:11 he's blocked cannot attend. 0:14 Now, usually, these spaces, they start off kind of slow. 0:17 But then, by the end, no one wants to quit. 0:22 And we have to stay for lots of extra innings. 0:28 So I don't know how to get past the slow part 0:32 in an entertaining way. 0:35 I played the Mario slide. 0:36 Maybe Vlad and I should just talk about something, 0:39 the events of the week. 0:43 Yeah, definitely. 0:44 I really want to brag about the posters that 0:46 were in Warsaw at the Film Fest. 0:48 I think more than 500 people attending the Film Fest 0:51 and MoneroCon saw them. 0:54 And I even got a video from the organizer, which 0:57 showed a few people talking in front of one of these posters. 1:00 I think it's kind of cool. 1:02 It gets people talking. 1:04 And I think it's important to talk prior to the launch 1:08 and figure out how eCash can be used 1:11 and how it's useful to a lot of developers 1:13 and lots of use cases. 1:17 That's cool, yeah. 1:19 And of course, my last name is Polish. 1:20 I'm half Polish. 1:22 So it was great to be. 1:24 I appeared as some kind of serial killer of some kind. 1:28 I don't know. 1:29 I'm the undertaker of Bitcoin, maybe, was the implication. 1:33 But yeah, it's cool that you got a video. 1:35 So that would be neat to see. 1:37 You should post it. 1:40 And yeah, one poster at a time, one movie poster at a time. 1:45 Now we have a JCB has requested. 1:49 So welcome. 1:50 And ask your question or criticize 1:54 or whatever it is you want to do. 1:57 I have two questions. 1:58 One, how do you say your last name? 2:02 Yeah, the T is a T-S in Polish. 2:04 So it's like storts. 2:06 It's kind of a little bit like in English. 2:08 Like in America, they have words like Brandanowicz. 2:12 That was a character on Parks and Rec. 2:14 And I think those end in like T. So it's 2:16 like that kind of thing. 2:18 So storts, yeah. 2:20 Gotcha. 2:20 Yeah, I'm Polish as well. 2:22 So I was curious. 2:25 And I really just have a question, 2:29 just kind of broad or whatever. 2:30 But what did you make of the Zcash thing recently? 2:37 That was very dramatic. 2:39 Well, I think the challenge is to explain why the Zcash price 2:46 crashed so much. 2:47 I think because I don't think what happened 2:49 was actually that bad. 2:50 We're all living in an age, if you've been paying attention 2:53 to technology, we're living in this age 2:56 where everyone is worried about these AI coding robots 3:04 because reading lines of code is very tedious. 3:06 And if a semicolon is in the wrong place or if a C is 3:09 canceled, like the DAO hack, I think, was like the word C. 3:12 The letter C was supposed to be capitalized or something, 3:14 and it wasn't. 3:15 So one tiny little mistake that a human can easily make 3:21 and versus these LLMs can just inhale huge amounts of text, 3:26 and they can read everything, every code. 3:27 They can read all the code that's ever been written, 3:31 and they can read about all the security vulnerabilities 3:34 that have ever happened in human time. 3:35 So everyone who's been following knows 3:37 that these AI people are going to be 3:38 very good at checking code and scanning 3:42 through a whole report much, much faster. 3:44 There used to be an old rule of thumb that is the rule of thumb 3:48 was that it's actually easier for a human to write new code 3:52 than it is to read code. 3:54 And this is why developers often would just 3:56 get their hands dirty with something 3:58 and just start writing it. 3:59 And it's very easy also to do like 80% of a project. 4:02 Like in a software project, you can get like 80% of the way 4:05 there in like the first weekend. 4:08 And then it takes you two years to finish the rest of it. 4:12 These are common software things. 4:14 So of course, the Zcash people hired 4:16 people to vet their own project. 4:19 One of them used these AI powers and found like a bug. 4:27 And then they fixed it quietly, and then they 4:31 decided to tell everyone about it. 4:32 This is the real, the unintended consequence 4:35 might be like don't tell anyone. 4:37 Because they disclosed it, and everyone like smelled blood. 4:40 It was like the wounded gazelle. 4:44 It reminds me of this book that someone wrote about if they 4:46 painted, if the hyenas, you know, 4:49 there was a book about like African animals 4:51 like hunting each other. 4:52 And if they paint an animal with like a white stripe, 4:56 even if it's really healthy, it like 4:58 guarantees that like the pack animals, the hyenas and stuff, 5:02 will like hunt it down and kill it. 5:04 Because it just stands out. 5:06 It doesn't blend in like with the herd or whatever. 5:08 That was the implication. 5:09 So it was like everyone turned on Zcash all of a sudden. 5:13 But I think objectively, the effects of the case 5:16 are not that bad. 5:17 They kind of did everything right. 5:18 And this was always a property of the enhanced privacy 5:22 of Zcash. 5:24 So is any of this answering your question? 5:26 Is this any of the things you were curious about? 5:28 Do you have something else? 5:29 I guess one more thing is, you know, do you have like 5:34 developers, or do you have like, you know, 5:36 these kind of AI guys, or any, you know, 5:40 what's the cavalry looking like for eCash? 5:44 Yeah, that's a good question. 5:45 So I think, though, so first of all, 5:49 we have like 10 or so developers. 5:52 And you know, some of them really like the AI tools. 5:55 Others are a little more skeptical. 5:58 And I think both of that, those are both very healthy. 6:01 But I think it's a very, you framed it very well. 6:04 But I think it's a misunderstanding. 6:07 So like this project, I think, is superior 6:10 to the other projects in an important way, 6:13 which is that everyone else has to have like the cavalry 6:15 like fighting each other. 6:17 And it's like whichever has the best developers 6:19 is like going to win. 6:21 But really, that's not the idea of this project. 6:24 The L1 for eCash will just be the same as Bitcoin Core, 6:29 with like the bare minimum number of changes 6:31 to like split the network off 6:32 and give it like a different name. 6:34 And so we're just going to like copy Bitcoin Core 6:37 being open source. 6:39 And that's also true for the L2s. 6:42 So like, for example, the zSide is L2. 6:44 It just used the Orchard Crate. 6:46 So from the Orchard Rust Crate. 6:47 So when they fix it in Zcash, we just also fix it. 6:52 And so we intend to keep, 6:54 because when you have a cavalry, you have to maintain them 6:57 and you're dependent on them. 6:58 So this is a huge, huge problem. 7:00 So first of all, how do you fund development 7:02 has been a question that has sunk many projects. 7:06 It's like helped destroy kind of Bitcoin Cash 7:08 to some extent, 7:09 because Omri, the developer of Bitcoin Cash 7:11 tried to do this thing where he was like paying himself 7:14 out of every mandatory, out of every block, 7:20 something like that. 7:21 You can look into it if you're interested, but. 7:26 And then you're reliant on them. 7:27 And this was actually the problem 7:29 that the large blockers had with BTC in the first place 7:34 was that they wanted the block size increase, 7:37 but the developers didn't agree with that direction. 7:41 And it was like, well, what do you do now? 7:43 So this project is just completely on it. 7:46 We not only, it's like, 7:48 not only do we have our cake and eat it too, 7:50 but we're like getting the cake for free 7:52 or the lowest price. 7:53 So someone's paying us to eat the cake or something 7:55 because we're going to just copy whatever other stuff 7:59 people write or anything else that other people do 8:02 in Bitcoin Core, on Altcoin world, 8:05 we'll copy that. 8:06 And we'll say, we don't, you know, 8:09 we don't take responsibility for inventing new things, 8:13 even though on top of that, we will also invent new things. 8:16 Because I actually think 8:17 that we have some cool things to invent 8:18 and we understand the whole ecosystem very well. 8:23 So we will invent some things. 8:25 But they will compete with. 8:26 I feel like inherit is the good, the best term here. 8:30 Maybe you inherit, you know. 8:33 Yeah, exactly. 8:35 Cool, man. 8:36 And you see, this is much better in many ways 8:38 because it's like, if we paid people 8:42 to like fight in the developer trenches, 8:46 then we have to pay them. 8:47 Then we have to like figure out like, are they any good? 8:49 Like, should we promote them or fire them 8:52 or do something else? 8:53 And it becomes quite a big mess. 8:56 Just the fact that the L2s themselves will compete. 9:00 I think that will actually hold all of these people in line. 9:03 And the fact that BIP300 allows you to start a new L2, 9:07 that means that they cannot really conspire 9:09 to roadblock or gatekeep the project. 9:14 And then in the L2s themselves, 9:15 they will probably start competing with each other. 9:18 So as a result, I think this project will have, you know, 9:24 it will be sort of future-proofed 9:25 and it will have the cutting edge technology 9:28 doing with the least amount of effort. 9:31 So I think that is a very important difference. 9:35 The cabaret will be fighting for free, I think. 9:37 Very cool. 9:38 Looking forward to it. 9:39 It's a great name, by the way. 9:48 Oh, okay, thanks. 9:49 Sorry, I was busy bringing someone else up 9:51 in the menu system. 9:53 But yeah, thank you. 9:53 Thanks very much. 9:54 Thanks for your question. 9:56 Now we got a KREV23, or a KREV. 10:01 Howdy, howdy. 10:02 Hello. 10:03 Yeah, I just wanted to drop in and tell you guys 10:07 that L2s, you got to forget about L2s 10:10 because once you're above the network itself, 10:15 now all of a sudden you're custodian. 10:17 So, I mean, we get away with mining 10:20 because it's not a service that I'm giving you specifically. 10:25 When you do your transaction on the Bitcoin network, 10:29 I personally am not mining it. 10:31 But if I'm running an L2, 10:35 I'm the one that's running that. 10:37 And so that's why Tornado Cash 10:40 and all those guys get in trouble 10:41 is because there's enough legal ambiguity 10:44 around quote-unquote custodians 10:46 that they can fudge things 10:48 and put people in jail for no reason. 10:51 Thank you. 10:52 Okay, well, I definitely agree 10:54 that those people shouldn't be in jail. 10:58 I disagree that every L2 is custodial. 11:01 Some are, some clearly are, 11:04 and then some clearly are not, 11:06 and then there's others also. 11:08 So it seems like you just assumed 11:11 that they would all be custodial. 11:12 But in this case- 11:14 It's not me that assumes it. 11:16 I just assume it by default 11:19 because that's the way the laws have been applied. 11:22 I mean, if you look at any of the cases 11:24 against people in crypto, 11:25 that's the way that they're interpreting it. 11:28 And so we don't really have a choice 11:29 over how they're going to prosecute us. 11:32 See what I'm saying? 11:34 Yeah, but like imagine they, 11:35 so like they prosecute, 11:38 like for example, let's say they try to prosecute me, 11:40 the creator of the idea of PIP 300, 11:45 which is led to eCash where someone else, 11:49 like for example, the Z sidechain is not, 11:54 some of the L2s will be submitted 11:56 by like people that we don't even know. 11:59 And I guess the question is like, I don't know, 12:03 like I suppose anyone could argue anything, 12:05 but I think, 12:11 to what extent are we going to be responsible 12:12 for like extremely bizarre arguments? 12:16 You're absolutely right, dude. 12:17 Paul, I'm not even arguing with you right there. 12:20 I agree with you 100%. 12:22 The thing is, is that it's not up to us 12:25 to know whether it's legal for you to do 12:28 what you're trying to do with our currency. 12:31 It's not up to us. 12:33 But the thing is, is the legislators, 12:35 they don't see it that way. 12:36 They just point to us as a facilitator of it 12:40 and say, oh, you're the responsible party. 12:43 I'm not responsible for you doing sports betting 12:46 in a country that it's illegal in using my cryptocurrency. 12:51 I'm not, you know? 12:53 But we can't really depend on them 12:58 to apply the law as it stands. 13:00 They will literally break the law to bust us 13:02 because we're competing with banks 13:04 who are their primary sponsors. 13:08 Well, you know, it's interesting that 13:09 in the early days of BTC, 13:12 a lot of the developers, 13:14 this didn't really include me at the time, 13:17 but a lot of these people, 13:18 they were convinced that they would go to prison, 13:21 actually, just for developing on BTC. 13:25 So they were kind of like, 13:27 but they ended up being kind of wrong about that. 13:29 And even I heard a lot of interesting, you know, 13:32 rumors and stories that I kind of believed 13:34 that like the US government was going to try 13:37 to arrest Vitalik 13:39 and claim he was doing securities offerings 13:43 or something like that. 13:44 And he just kind of like, they couldn't get away. 13:47 They couldn't do it for a long time. 13:49 And then they just, 13:50 the momentum for the case fell apart 13:52 as Ethereum grew into a bigger project. 13:55 It would have been sort of too embarrassing 13:57 or too anti-innovation. 13:59 So I don't know. 14:00 I think it's like very unclear 14:03 exactly what's going on over there 14:05 in the legal department, for lack of a better word. 14:10 It kind of seems like if you do the right thing, 14:11 you might suffer horribly. 14:13 If you do the wrong thing, you might get away with it. 14:16 You know, like some people get away 14:17 with doing the wrong thing and other people then. 14:20 So it just seems kind of like, why care about it at all? 14:23 It's like, I think it's actually, 14:26 unfortunately for our justice system, 14:29 which is, this is a lamentable thing, 14:34 but unfortunately it doesn't seem, 14:35 in this particular case, 14:36 it's a space of like software and technology. 14:39 It does seem like there's very little connection 14:44 between what people do, 14:45 whether or not it's objectively right or wrong 14:47 or harms people or helps thousands 14:50 or millions of billions of people, 14:52 and whether or not they end up suffering 14:54 or being praised or whatever. 14:58 As a result, it all seems very arbitrary. 15:01 So. 15:02 It is. 15:03 I couldn't agree more there. 15:05 And, you know, again, 15:07 it's something that Congress plays with, 15:10 that we're actually free to use whatever we want as money. 15:14 And as a matter of fact, 15:15 it's the only reason why the Federal Reserve 15:17 wasn't immediately shut down as counterfeiters, 15:20 because we are free to use whatever we want as money. 15:24 Whereas legal tender laws, 15:27 the reason people were after legal tender laws 15:29 is that's something that the government does. 15:32 You know, it's not legal for the government 15:33 to use other things as money, 15:35 but it's perfectly legal for us to. 15:38 But they don't wanna really bring that into the court. 15:40 You know, and that's one of the reasons, 15:43 I think, anyway, that they didn't go after us to begin with 15:46 and why they kind of eased up on Ethereum. 15:49 Where they went after Ethereum though, 15:52 where they really shouldn't have, 15:54 is the ICOs. 15:56 When the securities- 15:58 Yeah, I always hated those, 16:00 because they were all terrible. 16:01 But at the same time, 16:04 I think, like, I don't know, 16:07 it's hard to see like, 16:09 like it would have maybe been okay, 16:11 because now all that people will do is like, 16:14 the whole evolution of the space 16:15 has been towards useless kind of, 16:18 like you can do like NFTs and meme coins and things, 16:21 like that's allowed because you explicitly say 16:23 that it's not anything other than, 16:27 so it has kind of caused a far greater derangement 16:30 than even the ICOs themselves were causing at the time. 16:35 But let me ask you this, 16:35 you're not again, you're not in favor of L2s 16:37 for legal reasons, but you're in favor of what? 16:40 You are, are you like a large block Bitcoin SV-er 16:43 or what's your favor of life? 16:48 I'm for Bitcoin that I was sold. 16:51 And if you read the Bitcoin white paper, 16:53 it's entirely contextualized 16:56 in terms of a network consisting of people's PCs, 17:00 we're all running a stupid app in the background 17:03 that is basically maintaining 17:06 a permissionless global payment network. 17:09 And we're being compensated for it 17:11 by transaction fees and the block subsidy. 17:15 That's where I signed up for 17:16 and until that comes back in Bitcoin, 17:19 I'm gonna petition to do whatever the hell you wanna do. 17:23 Personally, ICOs, Layer 2s, 17:26 I have absolutely zero animus against any of them. 17:30 I think if you invest in it, that's your dog. 17:34 How it shakes out in the market, 17:37 whether or not the people rug you, 17:39 that's all up to you, man, it's due diligence. 17:43 And it's weird because it seems like 17:45 there's a lot of people out there 17:46 that keep wanting to treat crypto like stocks. 17:48 Crypto is not stocks. 17:51 And the worst part about it is you can't change that. 17:55 It doesn't matter what legislators you get after us, 17:58 it doesn't matter what laws you write in the books, 18:01 you can't change that. 18:03 What you can do is stick to markets 18:05 that you're actually comfortable with. 18:08 And if you feel comfortable with Visa, stay in Visa. 18:12 If you've got expectations of stocks 18:14 that you're buying representations of shares of a company, 18:18 you trust in the SEC and you go do that. 18:22 But here in crypto, 18:23 when I tell you I'm selling you a Bitcoin, 18:25 I'm not selling you a representation of a Bitcoin, 18:28 I'm not selling you a part of a company, 18:31 I'm selling you a product of a network of volunteer miners. 18:38 There you go. 18:39 Okay, that's pretty interesting. 18:40 But in your conception, everyone is like CPU mining at home, 18:44 which is, that's tough. 18:46 That's the way it's actually gonna go back to. 18:48 I know that people like to pretend 18:50 that you can overpower the need for actual organic use 18:54 and users with compute, but you can't. 18:57 And as a matter of fact, all you have to do 18:59 is look back at the history of industrial mining, 19:02 starting back in like 2015, 2016. 19:06 There is not a single industrial miner 19:09 that started back then that is in existence right now. 19:14 And it's because you can't do it. 19:16 You cannot sustain one of those huge hash farms 19:20 on 5,000 transaction fees per block. 19:24 You can't do it. 19:25 You need to increase the number of transactions per users. 19:31 Well, I totally agree that we need, yeah, 19:32 we need more people using it 19:34 and there needs to be payments. 19:36 And the payments market is huge 19:39 and it's more than big enough to. 19:41 But yeah, it seemed to me like you were saying also 19:43 that everyone gets compensated with the fees, 19:48 not only pays, but also receives. 19:51 That's the way you're supposed to be able to get Bitcoin. 19:54 Well, maybe. I mean, I agree that it's very cool that the mining was half of an exchange because 19:59 it was like if you could just turn on your computer, you would pay some real resources 20:03 and you would get Bitcoin. So that was a very, very cool way of acquiring Bitcoin. But I'm sure 20:08 you would agree that now it's not possible to mine without at least, I mean, I guess you get a 20:13 bit of X, you know, but you need like, you need like, it's not just on the computer. 20:19 The economics of Bitcoin, they only really support a network whose use and volume of 20:26 transactions increases over time. If you don't get more miners over time, the network becomes 20:32 weaker. If you don't get more transaction fees over time, you don't have enough incentive to 20:37 cause people to mine. But as I said, the economics behind Bitcoin, they will not sustain a 20:46 limited block size in perpetuity. They just won't. The miners have a choice as to whether or not they 20:52 enforce the block size limit, and they are going to choose not to in the future. 20:58 Well, actually, that's part of the idea of this BIP300301 idea in a way, which is that it says 21:04 that basically you have these different block sizes, they're like, some of which are like 21:08 optional, like, kind of like plugins in a way, where you have L1 in which everything starts. 21:14 And then you could send coins to a different network, and they would have their own block 21:19 size over there. And that's what I think is actually the best for everyone, because people 21:24 who don't want to be responsible for the extra transactions that are in separate zone, 21:33 don't have to be, but then the people who think that they want to take advantage of more block 21:39 space, they also can. So I think that the BIP300301 idea makes everyone happy. Of course, 21:48 since it's an idea that makes everyone happy, it ends up being criticized from all sides, 21:56 because the small blockers think, well, you're letting them get what they want, 22:00 there must be some catch somewhere. And then the large blockers think, why do I have to leave L1? 22:05 And even though there's really good answers to both of those questions, people don't seem to want 22:09 to. But every time we get a lot of large blocker BSV people, which I think is very intriguing, 22:16 I don't like put out for that specifically, but clearly it's interesting. Anyway, we got 22:22 Sat Scholar here. What's up, guys? Well, thanks for having me up. I'm at the gym, 22:27 so I can't talk long, but I just thought the idea of moving back to PC mining is interesting 22:32 and intriguing. I see a lot of just difficult caveats that would have to come about, because 22:41 ASICs are produced for the sole purpose of just hatching. We would have to then see 22:48 major growth within the chipsets of the CPUs that are just not there right now. So I would love to 22:55 see that. And I generally agree with a lot of what Crev is saying, but I think we need to have 23:02 a lot more backend infrastructure, kind of support that. And then the other idea is, what is that? 23:11 This is a big thing for me, and I've talked about this a lot at length. Moving forward, 23:17 like right now, this is going to be the exception in this chat. I'm assuming we all in here have 23:22 laptops, and we all in here have computers, right? But go around and talk to normies. 23:28 Nobody has PCs anymore, like nobody. Gamers do, I guess. But again, they're the exception. Most 23:36 people have phones, tablets. They might have a laptop, right? So how do we get the structures 23:44 of Bitcoin, not just the nodes or eCash in this example, the L2s, the mining, the ability to 23:54 download and parse the network quickly, how do we get that to start happening on quote-unquote 23:59 mobile devices? Because again, Crev, I love what you were saying, and I think I generally 100% 24:05 agree with you, but the compute architecture just might not be moving in that direction. 24:11 So that's kind of my point. I can see that, but if you look back at the history of the PC, 24:19 it ebbs and flows. When you get some major improvement in PCs where they go up an order 24:29 of magnitude in computing power, you'll see a little burst in people owning PCs. But a lot of 24:37 the trouble that people have with PCs is that you tend to want them at a home. If you don't have 24:44 a home, that becomes much less appealing. Things are kind of tough out there in the economy right 24:52 now. So people thinking along the terms of mobility, being able to pick up and bail in a 24:58 very short period of time, that gets people away from wanting to own PCs. But if you were to take 25:05 that PC and turn it into something where no matter where you go, you plug it into the wall, 25:10 you hook it, you connect it to the internet, now you're back mining Bitcoin again. It doesn't 25:17 matter where you are. You know what I mean? The whole infrastructure idea. You are the 25:24 infrastructure. In cryptocurrencies, we are the infrastructure. We've taken the job of banks 25:30 and taken it to ourselves. You just break down the little tasks into smaller bits and then 25:37 distribute it out through the rest of the world for people to do. I really think that idea of 25:43 distributed computing is going to be coming back to you. This whole thing with AI, we need big-ass 25:48 data centers. No, you don't need big-ass data centers. We haven't needed data centers since 25:53 Napster. It's just been a matter of will. I agree with that. Listen, I'm going to give you 25:59 a follow-up, because I do love everything you're saying. I generally agree, and I hope that it 26:05 turns out that you're correct. I agree with the data center part as well, because specifically 26:10 with that, with AI, it's going to be a race to the bottom. As better, more efficient systems come in, 26:14 those data centers are going to just become obsolete. It's like we went from Univac, 26:20 and we went to the Cray systems, and then we went to Sun Microsystems and mini PCs, 26:27 and now we have laptops. I have some of those. I have some Cray blades and stuff in my collection. 26:33 They're cool. They're fun to mess around with. I want to see optimization, though, 26:40 also on these decentralized networks. I think that lack of innovation and lack of optimization 26:47 has not been happening on the networks, too. Then also, we have to – this is kind of getting off 26:54 topic, but we have to acknowledge, too, the general price increases that have happened with 26:58 consumer electronics within the last two to three years. I am hopeful that that trend 27:03 reverses, but it's not looking good. Having some sort of a way to bridge that gap 27:11 is – I'm kind of rambling now, but I think you're a lot directionally correct, Rev, and yeah, kudos. 27:18 Okay, cool. I got Justin up here. Hello? And then Dev Toshi also, and then also we got a Shomari also, 27:28 but Justin was the next in line, theoretically, if there was a theoretical line. 27:34 Hey, thanks. Yeah, in your research into Drivechains and BIP300, and before you arrived at this 27:44 at this design, were there other scaling solutions? Obviously, you've thought this 27:53 through much longer than I have and anyone else, so you've – is there other solutions 28:00 in your research that could potentially scale to 8 billion people? And then 28:07 maybe you could also say why Drivechains, BIP300, 301, is the more optimal versus the other 28:17 things you've looked into or you've thought about or researched? Yeah, absolutely. I didn't think of 28:25 the idea of Drivechain and BIP300 as necessarily a scaling solution. In fact, there is an important 28:32 sense in which it's not a scaling solution, so this is – what the heck am I even talking about? 28:37 I'm going to try to explain it. Hopefully, it makes sense. But really, when I was thinking 28:42 about it, it was 2015 and it was the block size war, and I was really thinking about one question, 28:48 which is, can we give both the small blockers and the large blockers what they want, basically? 28:57 Is it actually a contradiction? It seems like in Bitcoin Core, the block size has either got to be 29:04 one megabyte, which is what it was at the time. It's either got to be one megabyte or it's got 29:08 to be something else, so it can't be one megabyte and eight megabytes. And so, that was really the 29:13 question, and at the time, I didn't even think about it as a scaling – a, quote, scaling solution 29:19 because what really I was thinking about for scaling was something like, 29:23 how can you do more transactions with less? You know what I mean? It's kind of like – I'm not 29:30 sure if I have a great metaphor queued up for this, but it's kind of like scaling would be 29:34 taking advantage of the same one megabytes to do 10 times more transactions with some kind of clever 29:40 way of shrinking the transactions or batching the transaction or having them net out or something. 29:45 So, I was thinking, oh, it turns out this is kind of what Drivechain is anyway, 29:50 but this isn't how I thought about it. So, really, the original Drivechain thing was kind of like, 29:57 at the same level, like the same miles per hour or the same rate or whatever, 30:01 could we just staple on eight megabytes of space that is useful for the large blockers but 30:07 optional for the – ignorable for the small blockers and useful for the large blockers, 30:12 and so then everyone can get what they want. And I kind of thought of scaling as like something 30:16 else that would be done in some weird other way. It's turned out that a couple of things 30:22 over the years, a couple of things have become clearer. One is that the other scaling ideas 30:28 don't really work very well, and it's like lightning I'm a huge skeptic of now. 30:33 I think it basically won't work at all. And a lot of the other stuff as well has proven to be 30:40 the – it looks like the spider chain people, they closed down yesterday or something. I don't want 30:45 to pick on them right after they put their sad message out. But people have had these other ideas 30:52 that I've kind of thought, you know, like Fedament or something. So, sometimes when people do like 30:56 Liquid or Fedament, and it's like they cheat on custody, and they say they would scale the same 31:02 way that when you just deposit the Coinbase or the Mt. Gox had some weird system where you could 31:06 like send people. So, that's kind of cheating, and it turns out Drivechain actually will work. 31:12 And it turns out Drivechain also, just because the way the withdrawals are ignorable, 31:16 Drivechain – like I didn't even think of Drivechain as an L2 like back in the day. 31:21 I thought sidechains were different from L2s, and now I don't think that at all. I think actually 31:26 a sidechain is going to end up – when historians write about this like 20 years from now, they're 31:32 going to have to stop and explain that what was called L2 at the time, it meant a bunch of stuff 31:40 that didn't work, and then there was also this like one single idea that did work. So, some ideas 31:46 I think are interesting, and I think people will be inventing ways of doing more with less. 31:53 A third thing that just happened to happen over the last 10-15 years is different from the way 32:00 it was in 2015. In 2015, the bottleneck was very clearly bandwidth. So, it was like 32:10 the block size could only be so large because there was only so much bandwidth, and bandwidth 32:18 especially of certain types that you're guaranteed to get, like a censorship-resistant 32:24 bandwidth, or like a Tor bandwidth, or whatever. There was only so much 32:30 like a bandwidth available, and so your ability to download the large blocks and then re-upload 32:36 them, because the upload speeds were even slower than download speeds, very significantly so back 32:41 in the day. There wasn't like video conferencing and stuff. It wasn't like Zoom. There wasn't COVID. 32:47 There wasn't work from home, and that also has changed so that now just by stapling extra 32:54 block size on, you can actually make it to – not only can you make it to something like 50% of the 33:01 current world transaction rate, but it's pretty clear that just in one or two years, 33:07 we'll just passively just shoot over the finish line with respect to all these 33:14 things that previously would have been the bottleneck resources. And now the bottleneck 33:19 resource is just everyone's time and attention and the software. As soon as everyone 33:24 upgrades, they'll realize that it kind of does work, or at least it could work. I don't know. 33:29 There's no guarantee that it will absolutely work out, but at least it'll be... 33:35 It's not the case where the bandwidth speeds were so slow that they just made it 33:39 unfeasible for you to have a large number of nodes processing all these blocks, 33:45 and such that very few people could ever do. So a lot of weird stuff changed over the years, 33:51 and a lot of it was unexpected by me. I thought the Lightning Network would work a lot better, 33:57 but I actually know that I'm older and wiser. I think it will not work, and I think it has 34:03 become a weird cult, and it has had a negative cultural effect on BTC, and it's contributed to 34:10 all kinds of complacency and overconfidence. So those are some things. And yeah, I kind of 34:18 didn't think Drivechain would work as well as it does. It does work just fine. There's no guarantee 34:25 that it will actually hold up. In the real world, processing 9 trillion transactions a year, 34:32 and in a world where there's all these adversarial conditions, and people are lying about it, 34:36 and attacking it, and people are prosecuting it, and so and so, and such and such. 34:43 So that's a little bit of the story. A lot of the other stuff that's been... Because the second 34:48 part of the question was, do I think any other scaling ideas are good? And I'm still open-minded 34:58 that some could be good, but actually, I don't even really know if we need any others, because 35:06 this one is now sufficient to solve the problem of scaling to 8 billion users. And I think what 35:14 we should instead do is we should just focus on, someone launches L2 Drivechain, 35:22 what's the current state of the art of that technology? And then what people should do is 35:27 they should say, okay, I'm going to fork that project, that L2 node. It's like a large block 35:33 size L2 Drivechain node. And I'm going to fork that, and I'm going to make sure that that 35:39 as just a software project, like a software fork on GitHub, I'm just going to try to improve that 35:44 software. And I think that's all, that's what we need to do. We don't need to actually do 35:50 other weird ways of packing more transactions into L1. So now I got Crev23 has his hand up. 35:56 So he has a reaction to that, I suppose. I just wanted to say the scaling issue. 36:03 You got to understand that the word scale is misapplied here. Like the Bitcoin network is, 36:15 it was originally set up was an ad hoc network, meaning that you could come on, hit it, bail, 36:23 no problem. That was how it was originally supposed to be. Well, you don't need quote 36:30 unquote- It's still that way though, isn't it? 36:33 I'm sorry, what was that? 36:34 Isn't it still that way? 36:35 Oh yeah, for the most part it is. And that's the thing. It's like, you need to scale a service 36:44 that you're providing as a service provider. Whereas with Bitcoin, it's capable of taking 36:51 everybody's transactions. I mean, you got to think about it in terms of how much information 36:57 is one megabyte? How long is it going to take you to download one megabyte? Not very long. 37:03 And you're not doing it all at once. You're doing it over a 10 minute block interval. So 37:08 it's not like it's something where if you're out in the boonies these days, you don't have to worry 37:13 about bandwidth issues because your internet service provider is going to be able to handle it. 37:20 Yeah, now we have Starlink, but that was not the case. That was certainly not the case in 37:24 2007, 2009 or something. And it's one megabyte per 10 minutes, but it's 1,000 blocks per week. 37:34 So it was one gigabyte per week. And that was back in 2010, that was a significant 37:42 imposition on someone's home bandwidth. And it's objectively the case that you could not 37:48 possibly, and that's even the one megabyte limit, which would have been nowhere near. 37:56 Whose problem is that? It just would have kicked you off the network. 38:00 Is it Bitcoin's problem or is it your problem? You can probably do something to improve your 38:06 internet connection, right? Well, I'm just saying it was very impractical back then, 38:12 but today it's actually a moot point because people are downloading 120 gigabyte 38:16 call of duty upgrades or whatever, like routinely, and they do Zoom. So that's my point, 38:22 is it went from being an enormous burden that would be impossible to meet, or it's absurdly rude 38:30 to even ask 99.999% of the population to put up with. It went from that being something- 38:37 That's the barrier to entry though, dude. That's the barrier to entry is that you got 38:42 minimum requirements. Dude, it's like doom, okay? 38:48 I just wanted to ask Justin if he thought that I was making any progress answering his question. 38:59 Yeah, yeah. 39:03 Because it was a three-part question. So did you have anything else that you wanted to 39:10 ask about or did that make any sense or what? 39:17 Well, at this point, I don't have enough knowledge to really add anything further, 39:23 but yeah, I think you did a good job. 39:25 Okay, great. Thanks. Then we had Shomari, I think. 39:30 Yeah, I'm just holding up for a moment. 39:32 Welcome, hello. 39:33 Let me take myself off the Bluetooth. My Bluetooth is terrible, just a moment. 39:40 You have a bit of an echo there, Justin. 39:43 Yeah, and I disconnected off the Bluetooth. 39:46 We had spoken a couple of weeks ago. I'm a builder interested in what the infrastructure of the new eCash network and the sidechains essentially is going to be orchestrated, how it's going to be orchestrated. 40:02 And I think we spoke about maybe about three or four sessions ago about it. So I've been looking deeper into some of the technicals. 40:12 And it's very interesting. Some of the assumptions that I made, I would say, were not really correct. 40:20 But I'm eager to just kind of get something working so that I could start learning from an actual build. 40:28 So I hate to kind of make this a little technical, but I did have a few issues that I ran into. 40:34 And unfortunately, I don't have Telegram, so I'm not in your group. 40:40 So I tried to message you through X a couple of times. 40:44 Sorry, I just want to say that X very aggressively pigeonholes people into this. 40:50 They have this system, which I think is probably a decent one. 40:53 But basically, I usually don't get people's X messages, so I'll look for them. 40:56 Because if you've never messaged me before, it puts them into this obscure category called requests that you have to hunt down. 41:03 This is like I responded to a message. I didn't DM. 41:07 Yeah, I don't even know. I'm not a good DMer. 41:10 But I posted. The issue I had was that the network appeared to reset a couple of days ago, like about 40 hours ago. 41:18 Yes. 41:22 Yeah. 41:23 And I can't get back on the live network. 41:29 So it's now at like block, let's say 400. 41:33 That's not going to happen. 41:35 Yeah. 41:37 So I just want to know, how do I get back on the actual network is really my question. 41:40 I will tell you. 41:42 What happens is, so there's this thing, Cygnet, which has fake coins. 41:47 And that is an invention from Bitcoin Core, which is kind of useful. 41:50 And it's like a version of test net. 41:52 But I don't want to go into the details. 41:54 But basically, Cygnet is like where people hang out and test things. 41:57 And that has a specific this thing that you have to put this value in the file. 42:04 Yeah. The Cygnet challenge. Did that change? 42:07 It did. And we put it in the Telegram group. 42:10 So everyone is on the new one. 42:12 And I just like to also say this is pretty unusual. 42:14 What happened was we ran the Cygnet for like more than a year without resetting it. 42:19 And that was pretty cool. 42:21 But then we reset it just because it had too many blocks. 42:24 And we were tired of forcing people to download them all. 42:27 But then we did the bug hunt. 42:29 We did the bug hunt. 42:30 And a lot of people participated and sent in some cool bugs. 42:34 And so one of the bugs was kind of nasty. 42:36 So we were like fixing all these bugs. 42:38 So we were like, whatever, we'll just reset it again. 42:40 And I kind of like didn't – I guess I didn't really tell anyone. 42:42 I didn't know how many people would be on the network. 42:45 But there is a new Cygnet challenge. 42:46 You can update the dev.txt because that's where I got it from originally. 42:51 So if that gets updated, I can just pull it from there. 42:54 You're 100% right. 42:55 Yeah, you're 100% right. 42:56 And normally I would have updated it, but the thing was I was too lazy to do it. 43:01 And I just thought, does anyone even look at this thing, this dev.txt? 43:05 I worked so hard on it, and I never figure out if anyone is looking at it. 43:08 I look at it like multiple times a day. 43:10 Because it just reinforces like – I'm just learning at this point. 43:15 I'm still confused, and that's the source of truth. 43:18 So I just have to keep going back a bit to just understand. 43:23 Because there is some discrepancies throughout. 43:26 You are right. 43:27 But that's not your fault. 43:28 It's been a real gospel for me. 43:31 So I appreciate that. 43:33 Yeah, you are 100% right. 43:35 When we reset it, I should have immediately – 43:38 Before we reset it, I should have immediately updated it in dev.txt. 43:43 And I will – okay, I'll try to do it now while talking. 43:47 No, no, no. 43:48 It's not an emergency. 43:49 The thing is I just wanted to make it clear. 43:52 And I never thought that someone wouldn't have Telegram because – 43:55 Yeah, yeah. 43:56 That's my problem. 43:58 That's my problem. 43:59 No, I just wanted to make it clear that I am definitely eager to get a working solution. 44:04 So my plan – I have a web wallet that's up now. 44:09 And it was almost working. 44:10 I was trying to do a test. 44:11 And that's when I realized the network – I was off the network. 44:15 Yeah, and I'd just like to reiterate that that is kind of unusual. 44:18 That's mostly because of the bug hunt. 44:21 And we ran it for a whole year without – 44:23 And I just kind of thought – I just thought, whatever. 44:25 We'll just reset it. 44:26 Who cares? 44:27 But, yeah, when we reset it, we also have to reactivate the sidechain. 44:30 So when it turns back on, it looks like nothing is there at all until like two days pass or something. 44:35 And then it kind of comes back. 44:37 So it's mostly back now. 44:38 Once I saw that the block had reset back to wherever I saw it, like 200. 44:43 Until yesterday, it was like 200-something or 100. 44:45 So I realized it had been reset, but I couldn't tell if the Cygnet challenge had changed. 44:51 So I was just like, why isn't it working? 44:53 But that's so cool. 44:55 But the other thing I was going to say was – 44:57 Yeah, so my full, I guess, ambition here is to get a working demo between BitAssets and Thunder. 45:11 So my other issue is that those are now gone. 45:14 So what's going on? 45:16 I think that's what I tried to say before, which is we have to reactivate them because it starts the blockchain over. 45:22 And then BIP300 lets you basically activate. 45:25 But they should be back now, I think. 45:27 So that's a really interesting question because that kind of would answer maybe something I'd probably ask you maybe a couple weeks from now. 45:34 Because I am interested in launching at least on a testnet sidechain. 45:40 Again, really, I want to learn about how this would work because I feel very strongly about the opportunities. 45:48 But yeah, so that's the question. 45:50 Because how do you actually launch a sidechain, even on the Cygnet? 45:59 I think BitWindow had a menu for it. 46:04 But is it like a – can I do it through the command line? 46:08 Is that possible through the command line? 46:10 Basically impossible without – because this is the way Cygnet works. 46:16 So just – I don't know. 46:17 This is a lot of – we're discussing a lot of different things that may be confusing to people. 46:21 But that's – you have to just embrace the confusion and enjoy it, anyone who's listening. 46:25 Just embrace the confusion. 46:26 It's a wonderful confusion. 46:28 Cygnet was invented by Bitcoin Core because we used to have this thing, Testnet, but it sucked. 46:35 And it was a fake Bitcoin network in parallel, and it was very easy to mine blocks because none of it was worth any money. 46:44 But Cygnet was a giant – because people could just mine trillions of blocks on a whim, and then there would be no blocks. 46:51 And so Testnet was kind of a waste of time, and it kind of still is. 46:55 And it has some utility. 46:57 But then there was also this thing, RegTest, for people just testing on their own computer, 47:01 where they just want to see if their code runs, basically, which is very, very useful. 47:06 But you don't have any other people interacting with you, so you don't know – you kind of can see on one computer. 47:12 So Cygnet kind of splits the difference. 47:14 And with Cygnet, one person is just mining – one person has a magic key. 47:18 They sign a block every 10 minutes. 47:21 So it's kind of bizarre because Drivechain is supposed to be this decentralized miner-governed thing. 47:26 But when it's combined with Cygnet, it's a little bizarre because there's no way you could ever activate 47:31 without asking the person who runs the Cygnet server, who is an L2L employee. 47:37 So if you just message me, then if you – you have other options. 47:43 One option is you can post in CoinNews, if you saw, in Bitwindow. 47:47 If you can use coins and send a message there. 47:50 I actually tried to implement that into the wallet. 47:52 I might actually be able to get that working. 47:55 So that's actually really cool. 47:57 Yeah, so it's like if you spend coins, you can send a message that everyone will see. 48:01 Yeah, yeah. 48:02 It's like a paid broadcast system. It's really cool. 48:05 I think it's a super cool idea. It's super cosmetic. 48:08 And it doesn't even – it's not a soft fork. It's not anything. 48:10 It's just – yeah, anyone could do it. 48:12 That would surprise me. I was like, this is current news. 48:15 I was like, this is actually working. 48:17 Yeah, it's really, really neat. 48:19 And then it's funny when you re-download the blockchain, it scrolls through the old news sometimes. 48:24 I think we changed it maybe so it doesn't. 48:25 But it used to time warp through the old news in Bitwindow. 48:29 It's kind of pretty cool. 48:30 Wait, so then I hate to just kind of take up too much of your time here. 48:34 So like Bitwindow now, how do I fix that? 48:36 Because that's the other – that's how I'm using to test my wallet is Bitwindow. 48:40 So how do I actually update that? 48:42 Because I did download a new version, and it did work, the new version. 48:46 We're usually pretty good. 48:48 Bitwindow is more of like the move fast and break things. 48:52 So that one is likely to break, but it's also very likely to be fixed in like 12 hours of it breaking. 48:59 So that one's like the fun. 49:01 Do you hard code the Cygnet challenge into it? 49:05 You know, actually, this went a little bit back and forth. 49:08 But what I think – my preference, and I can't remember if we still do this or not because we traded it back and forth. 49:16 Bitwindow, it's capable of using the command line arguments, of course, which it usually does. 49:22 But then it's also capable of writing the conf file. 49:26 And I think that's a little more transparent. 49:29 So it may write the file, or maybe it doesn't. 49:32 But if you have a conf file, it will obviously override. 49:36 So I will – 49:38 If you want to run it on like – 49:39 And then just to let you know, like the issue I'm having, because it prompted me for the new version. 49:43 I downloaded a new version. 49:44 The new version isn't accepting the mnemonic, the seed phrase, so it won't go past the seed phrase. 49:50 So I have to fall back to the last version I'm waiting to download. 49:53 So that's something I'm – 49:56 It just nothing happens, or what happens? 49:58 Yeah, I just hit it, and nothing happens. 50:00 And then like the other version, it goes through right away. 50:03 It turns green, and then I'm good. 50:05 So I know how it works, but it doesn't work on the – 50:08 And it's on the Mac. 50:10 I think – yeah, it's on the Mac. 50:12 You say the Mac one works the best. 50:15 The Mac one is great. 50:16 I have it on all platforms just because I'm testing. 50:18 But on the Mac is where I've seen issues. 50:24 Okay, I'm going in, and I'm updating the – 50:26 I didn't think – I made the – I personally made the dev.txt, but I thought – 50:31 I was like – I guess I had never gotten any feedback of anyone using it. 50:36 So it's nice to hear that you used it. 50:38 Maybe other people did. 50:39 That's why I was kind of like – I despaired of putting the thing. 50:42 But I'm changing now the Cygnet challenge, and now I'm uploading it. 50:47 Oh, cool. 50:49 I really, like, literally was just about to test, like send coins. 50:56 And I was like, it's not working. 50:57 I was like, what's going on? 50:59 I was like, I did all this, and it's not even working. 51:02 So, yeah, if I can actually get it to test and, like, get it working, that would be really cool. 51:05 I'd be really happy about that. 51:07 So thank you. 51:08 Okay, absolutely. 51:09 Then we had two other people request. 51:10 I'm going to try to add them. 51:11 I think JK was the next person. 51:13 Dev.txt, that's just in which repo? 51:21 Sorry, when I go into the menu to bring people up, I can't. 51:24 So then it's just drivechain.info slash dev.txt. 51:29 So it's just a file. 51:32 But it is linked. 51:33 I think if you go to, like, node.drivechain.info or node.cygnet, there's, like, a link to it. 51:38 So there's some way of it being found. 51:40 But it's, I don't know, you know. 51:45 Anyway, I will. 51:47 What Mac? 51:48 Just curious as to what version of Mac you're running. 51:50 If I could try to replicate the bug groups, perhaps on my own. 51:55 Yeah, give me two seconds. 51:57 Let me bring it up. 51:58 I'll put it in the chat. 52:00 Thanks. 52:01 That's all. 52:02 That's all. 52:03 I just want to see if I can replicate it. 52:04 Thanks. 52:05 Bye. 52:06 It's very strange that so early on, and for such a basic thing, importing the seed phrase, 52:11 which is, like, you know, whatever, just like this little translation, that is unusual. 52:19 So that's a good bug to find. 52:20 So that's great. 52:21 We'll find it. 52:28 But yeah, JK, I think, was next in line, theoretically. 52:35 Yeah, I think around, I was just wondering into the future, like, where you saw a lot of the development going, 52:43 like being produced by, like, specific firms who, like, specialize in it. 52:46 Or if it's like, like, I know at one point there was theorized that, I guess, like, 52:50 mining companies would sort of take on that role of wanting to be development as well. 52:58 I don't know if you have any more ideas to expand on. 53:04 The first idea is there's a lot of stuff that people are doing for free that is like being gatekept, 53:09 being taken from BTC and sort of blocked out. 53:15 So let's not turn away any of the free stuff. 53:19 We want that. 53:21 And then the second point is miners would be making more money. 53:26 It's theoretically possible to imagine a situation where miners invest in software development. 53:33 Then they don't need to get a return. 53:36 The return comes in directly in the form of transaction, increased transaction fees. 53:41 So that can be, theoretically, it might be the mining pools because they're more like specialists. 53:49 We've seen, though, the mining pools we actually see, I think, are pretty disappointing. 53:55 They don't seem, I mean, with the exception of like Marathon has built out this thing where they have like a media arm and they have like, 54:05 they have like Isabel, they have like specialists like looking into things like reporting on things. 54:10 And Luxor, you know, Nick, the CEO of Luxor, he like looks into things, he knows about things. 54:16 They attend like ordinal parties and things like that. 54:22 And so there's some exceptions. 54:25 But mostly, I think there's a lot of just confusion and not a lot of collaboration. 54:33 Not a lot of a lot of people distrust. 54:37 You know, bid main and pool, I suppose. 54:40 Obviously, Ocean is kind of a weird dark sheep. 54:45 A dark horse, black sheep. 54:47 I mixed a metaphor there. 54:48 But so we haven't really seen like them form. 54:53 Remember when Michael Saylor tried to form a mining council? 54:56 But nothing came of any of that. 54:58 So like sometimes people, OK, like I remember like Pierre, I don't remember who he was working for Foundry. 55:09 I literally don't even remember. 55:11 But it was something like they were trying to produce like stuff to fight propaganda because mining is accused of being bad for the environment. 55:18 But we haven't really seen like a coordinated effort from mining pools to like advance the cause of Bitcoin. 55:26 Mostly they either. 55:29 I mean, they mostly seem kind of passive or even inept or counterproductive. 55:35 So I hate to be so critical, but it doesn't seem as though. 55:39 So, yeah, the idea that they're suddenly going to become like paying for software or something. 55:46 I don't know, like supporting pure research, like they could be like the Carnegie's or they could be like Medici family. 55:53 Like, you know, like I don't know, like I'm not sure if that's going to happen. 55:57 One good thing is it does seem like just purely for the prestige. 56:02 You do have a lot of software being written just for the love of it. 56:06 I think the bigger issue is, can we remove the barriers? 56:11 Like where if someone sees a problem, someone says, you know what, this line of code should be more like this. 56:19 Remove the barrier. 56:21 I suppose for the like when there is the fork, will there be automatically like the existing sidechains like set up on it? 56:32 Or are you going to go through the proposed process of like sending a message in the Coinbase and stuff like that? 56:38 That's a very good question. I would have to go through the real process, I suppose. 56:44 I think it would be kind of mitigated by the the fact that the difficulty will be very low and a bunch of blocks are just going to fly forward. 56:53 So that may either make it worse or better, because I think the smart thing might be to. 57:03 Like code in that they must activate like you have like an additional soft fork. 57:09 Like thing where we just say like you must signal for these seven sidechains that would ensure that they all even though they take two thousand blocks, they would like all activate the same day. 57:19 And it could be like it would just be like a one time thing. So that would maybe be the best of both worlds. 57:27 Because it could also be like one risk whenever you do like this proof of work, mining and all this stuff with a slow 10 minute block time. 57:36 One risk is that the difficulty overshoots and then we have to have like 30 minute blocks. 57:42 In which case it'll take it won't take two weeks, but it'll take six weeks to adjust back down. 57:48 That is a risk. I think that's probably the biggest risk so far. 57:52 Which is not that big of a risk because you can always like rent hash rate and you can make those things you do like if it's really, really bad. 58:00 Hypothetically, this was discussed like a few spaces ago. You could just put out a new client and you say, OK, we lower the difficulty right now. 58:08 And you this this would these would not be these have nothing to do with the long run fate. 58:13 This just has to do with launching a new proof of work chain where you don't really know what the difficulty should be. 58:21 So these are just related to like starting it up. And it's kind of like once it's up, it wouldn't have these giant oscillations. 58:30 But the point is, since there are probably lots and lots of blocks found very quickly at the beginning, followed by a period of more, more normal 10 minute blocks or slower. 58:46 You would probably just race right through those as long as everyone signaled. 58:51 So, yeah, but I think there'll be a lot of chaos at the launch, but hopefully it won't be too bad. 58:58 The the vision or the the I don't know what the word would be, but the like the this project is is a long term like it's betting on transaction fees in the long run. 59:23 And if that just grows, if we just are in a situation where the transaction fees grow 10 percent a year, it will eventually. 59:36 Overtake. 59:39 All other coins, I think it would. 59:41 So, you know, it's like it's not. 59:45 BTC has chosen to do a bunch of weird things. 59:48 It's kind of hard to explain them all, but BTC has chosen to not only keep the block size small. 59:55 But they've also chosen not to be interested that much in merge mining and to reject all attempts to get miners more money as misinterpreting that as MEV. 1:00:05 And there's a lot of weird things that they have done. 1:00:08 And in BTC and as a result, the mining revenues will probably be very, very low for a long time. 1:00:15 And it'll eventually be possible that the the increase in transaction fees, if they're growing geometrically and a rival chain. 1:00:26 You know, as long as they're growing geometrically, it's a mathematical certainty that the mining revenue will increase in the two week period by much more than. 1:00:35 People are even getting in and in BTC world, so that would be like very, very bad for BTC, if that so that's kind of like I would hope that people would just try to the the chaotic launch. 1:00:51 That's part of, you know, what keeps it decentralized, you know, that's kind of what keeps it punk. 1:00:57 That's going to be so don't worry if it's if it has a weird launch, which it might. 1:01:05 And but I think what I think is likely to happen is we'll launch it with like try to activate all the chains like in the next block. 1:01:15 Maybe we'll like launch it like, you know, it'll be like the next two blocks, like they have them all proposed and whatever will be like kind of like it's kind of like a bit 148. 1:01:27 Helps SegWit activate via bit nine. 1:01:30 I don't know if this is going to make any sense to anyone, but now there might be some it might be weird at the beginning, but I'm just saying it's going to be fun. 1:01:41 Don't be too dismayed by just adjust your expectations a little bit. 1:01:46 It will be it's it will be fun. 1:01:49 And that's what keeps it decentralized. 1:01:52 It's going to be great. 1:01:54 So we also had a snake. 1:01:58 Welcome. 1:02:00 I mean, unless JK, unless you want to ask about or you had a reaction to that, or you want to say something else? 1:02:07 No, not not particularly, but it seems, I suppose, somewhat unfortunate, maybe that these pools and miners are not as participatory, but you know, it's just kind of how it is. 1:02:20 Yeah, in BTC, it's possible that it's like a chicken and egg cultural problem where they've gotten used to acting this way for so long. 1:02:29 And in fact, they were trained during the block size war and during after and immediately afterwards, they were sort of trained to have no opinion. 1:02:36 So it's possible we start over with a new culture. 1:02:42 Culture that, you know, I don't know, that may also be self-perpetuating, but I do not know. 1:02:54 OK, this snake. 1:02:58 OK, well, CREV23 wants to speak again, but it's just going to be more about how I mean, you can say it if you like, because you're welcome to say it. 1:03:08 But we already know it's just going to say about like how unlimited L1 blocks are the best and et cetera. 1:03:16 So it's OK, you know, it's not really up for us to define these things. 1:03:21 It's for the market to decide. 1:03:23 I think that probably the last 15 years of Bitcoin have been us arguing with Satoshi that, you know, they were trying to say, oh, you didn't do it right. 1:03:34 He did it right. 1:03:35 And everything that we've come up with since he had a one megabyte of the new structures and stuff, they all end up failing because they're they're meant to be gamed. 1:03:47 They're not based on objective proofs. 1:03:49 They're they're usually set up on subjective proofs. 1:03:54 And it's an objective fact that Satoshi installed the one megabyte block size limit and then and then left. 1:04:01 He did not. He did not. 1:04:03 He did not create the Internet's perfect money and then throw a fucking cog in it that fucks it up. 1:04:09 I just refuse to believe that. 1:04:12 Personally, I believe that he was killed not long after the project started and that somebody else posing as him introduced the block size limit because I've never heard that you brought up the bandwidth issue with regard to blocks. 1:04:29 Why is it that there isn't the same amount of concentration on hashing power? 1:04:34 Because, you know, it's like not everybody can afford a big old hash farm. 1:04:39 So, you know, we should be able to keep mining open to everybody. 1:04:44 You know, we gave a shit about that with bandwidth, right? 1:04:46 Then why don't we give a shit about that with hashing power? 1:04:50 It's a good question. 1:04:51 And the answer is the full node cost has to be paid by everyone in order to run a node and measure confirmations for the money they receive. 1:05:03 Whereas with mining, it doesn't matter if you mine or not. 1:05:08 The network doesn't matter to you. 1:05:10 And it doesn't necessarily matter if the network is all mined by people who all hate each other or even are conspiring against you. 1:05:18 As Satoshi says in the white paper, even if there's a huge conspiracy, it's more profitable for the person who just advanced the chain than it is to double spend, usually. 1:05:28 And so even in that extreme case where… 1:05:31 So basically, the idea is that the cost… 1:05:36 We cannot be in the business of caring about how much mining costs because actually every upward difficulty adjustment increases miners' costs. 1:05:45 So the whole reason that we have proof-of-work at all, the whole way that proof-of-work works is it translates the costs into lower hash rate and 51% attack deterrence. 1:05:58 So we actually want mining revenues to be high and that as the difficulty adjusts up following that, we want mining costs to be high. 1:06:07 However, because we get a benefit, we get a benefit when the mining costs are high, the cost of 51% attack and denial-of-service attack, the network is also high. 1:06:17 But there's no direct parallel benefit when the node cost is high other than, of course, you have more block space for people to use. 1:06:25 But these are different people. 1:06:28 So if the node cost is too high and no one can run a node, the network will just disappear and die off and enter an unrecoverable state. 1:06:36 But if the mining costs are too high, some miners will leave, miners will exit, and then the difficulty will fall. 1:06:45 And so that will actually… that has a feedback loop to take care of itself. 1:06:49 Whereas if the node cost accelerates too much, the node costs pile up, they accumulate forever. 1:06:56 It's just like that… it's like that Futurama joke about they would just drop a giant ice cube in the ocean. 1:07:04 But because the greenhouse gases continue to accumulate, we have to drop a bigger and bigger ice cube each time, thus solving the problem once and for all. 1:07:13 And that's the joke, is that it's a permanent, worsening problem. 1:07:19 It's a different type of thing than… the difficulty adjustment and the miners' costs is a little bit more like steering a car left and right, or like moving an elevator at a speed or something. 1:07:29 It's like easier to control and move and tune, whereas the node costs are a ticking time bomb. 1:07:38 So that is a very important difference between the two. 1:07:43 In order to mine at all, someone somewhere needs to run a node. 1:07:47 There's all this about SPV, you can free ride off of someone else's node. 1:07:52 But there has to be someone, someone out there running the node. 1:07:55 And that is why, even to mine, it's prerequisite that someone pays the node cost. 1:08:01 So these are the many differences between those two. 1:08:05 But you're right, a lot of my critics, including a top critic, Peter Todd, he's, I think, also super confused about this, where he would say he's really, really worried about the effect on mining costs because he thinks these L2s will pay so much money that miners will feel bad if they miss out on it. 1:08:24 So they'll be obligated to run the mining software. 1:08:27 And this is supposedly going to be very expensive. 1:08:29 So they're going to get paid so much money that they're going to lose all their money, is part of his convoluted argument. 1:08:35 And then I asked him on stage at TabConf, I think maybe in 2023, I said, hey, why don't we remove all of the upward? 1:08:42 I said, are you in favor of removing the upward difficulty adjustments from blocks? 1:08:47 Because those are by far the biggest contributor to mining costs. 1:08:50 But of course, he knows he can't say that. 1:08:52 So I think he was just realized how confused he was. 1:08:56 And unfortunately, we didn't shine enough light on just how poorly he thought through all that. 1:09:01 And this is not what he's talking about at all. 1:09:03 But yeah, I think this is very important. 1:09:06 Your theory about Satoshi being killed and replaced. 1:09:08 You know, I don't believe that because Satoshi was not only was he a great designer and coder, but he was a really good writer. 1:09:18 And that's just very hard to believe that the guy killed and replaced him and then kept posting on Bitcoin Talk. 1:09:25 I suppose it's possible. 1:09:28 But I think that's a little far-fetched. 1:09:31 But it is interesting. 1:09:32 I've never heard anyone argue that before, that he was killed. 1:09:34 And then the version of him that showed up, or whoever is impersonating him, put the one megabyte block size limit. 1:09:43 And did all these other answers, all these other questions on the forum. 1:09:48 Complained about Wikileaks and stuff like that. 1:09:50 That's very intriguing. 1:09:52 But that's a very interesting point of view. 1:09:59 We have a GB with a hand up. 1:10:02 So we can go to GB. 1:10:04 Hello, can you hear me OK? 1:10:06 I can hear you. 1:10:07 Yes. 1:10:08 Perfect. 1:10:08 I just had two questions. 1:10:10 The first is on Drivechains and the second was about eCash. 1:10:14 On Drivechains, what is the minimum number of sidechains that it could have had? 1:10:20 I think it has 128 or whatever. 1:10:23 And it has to be a multiple of eight or something like that. 1:10:26 What does that mean? 1:10:28 We mean maximum. 1:10:31 Oh, OK. 1:10:34 What is the minimum number of sidechains? 1:10:39 Because the max number is what? 1:10:41 128? 1:10:43 256. 1:10:44 But it's not really. 1:10:45 You could just add like a separate set of 256 and you could have Drivechains of drivechains. 1:10:50 So there's no like ethical limit, really. 1:10:54 Is there a minimum? 1:10:55 There's no minimum. 1:10:57 Sorry. 1:10:58 Yeah, I phrased it wrong. 1:11:00 Is there a way to move the max from 256 down to eight, for example? 1:11:06 Well, it's kind of the answer is yes. 1:11:10 But the answer is also that the question doesn't make that much sense. 1:11:13 Because if you think about it, in my view, BIP300 is a soft fork. 1:11:21 And in my view, miners can add a new soft fork whenever they want of any kind. 1:11:25 BIP300 or CTV or whatever they want. 1:11:31 And also the miners activate the L2 Drivechains and they also can ignore them. 1:11:35 And the miners can also censor all messages related to any L2. 1:11:40 So it doesn't even matter if it's Drivechain or if it's liquid or if it's ARC. 1:11:45 They can just say, no deposits, no withdrawals to this L2, effectively shutting it off. 1:11:53 So it's already my view that miners could create. 1:11:56 They could create a new BIP300, like BIP300 with a different name. 1:12:00 Or they could shut off BIP300 and they already add and drop the sidechain. 1:12:04 So if 51% of miners want there to only be exactly eight Drivechains, 1:12:10 then that is exactly what will happen. 1:12:12 So I don't know if that answers your question or not. 1:12:14 When you say limited. 1:12:16 Personally, definitely. 1:12:17 I was just wondering in terms of getting buy-in from the Bitcoin community. 1:12:23 Because one of the issues you hear is it's going to be an absolute shitshow 1:12:27 if there's all these sidechains. 1:12:30 Whereas if, for example, you change it to just be a max of four 1:12:33 and you're saying it's going to be Z, cash sidechain, five mines, 1:12:40 and two Thunder sidechains or whatever, 1:12:42 then maybe you would be able to get buy-in for if it was a lower amount than... 1:12:48 I know you're losing out on the decentralizing the innovation in Bitcoin and that. 1:12:52 But did you ever think about bringing down the max number of sidechains? 1:13:00 Yeah, I agree with you that there could be a flood of very low-quality ones 1:13:05 which would tarnish the brand somewhat or the idea. 1:13:14 But I also think that's not so bad. 1:13:18 Because think about it, either those will all work out 1:13:25 and there'll be maybe 100 and there'll be chaos. 1:13:28 But they'll all be paying some fees and it will just work, which I don't expect. 1:13:35 I think for the Drivechains to work, they have to be paying fees. 1:13:39 So this is another misconception that I think they have to be healthy businesses 1:13:44 or healthy organisms. 1:13:47 Whereas when the other people design like BitVM or something, 1:13:49 they have some weird other thing. 1:13:51 Then what happens is they end up with... 1:13:53 You know, I hate to be critical again of like whatever, 1:13:57 Citria or of Spiderchain or these other things where it's like... 1:14:03 They think that they have to build the perfect thing and then get users. 1:14:10 And then they end up with no users. 1:14:12 But actually, it's kind of like they're all either the same 1:14:15 or even one comes before the other where it's like, 1:14:18 you have to build something that people want. 1:14:20 And if they want it, then they'll be paying the transaction fee. 1:14:23 You have something to work with. 1:14:24 You have a little bit of a strategic currency to play with. 1:14:28 You know, you have some fuel in the tank you can use to make something happen. 1:14:34 But it doesn't work at all without the users, without the market demand. 1:14:39 So either it'll all work out for the tiny, tiny multitude of bad, 1:14:45 hundred low-quality chains, 1:14:49 or it'll only work for eight and then there'll be a long tail of failed chains. 1:14:55 I think people would maybe try to wrap their head around like, 1:15:00 okay, because it's not like... 1:15:03 It's like when you drive down the street, 1:15:05 you only see the businesses that haven't failed. 1:15:09 But every now and then you see one that is in the process of failing. 1:15:12 It has a going out of business sale. 1:15:14 And every now and then your favorite restaurant closes. 1:15:18 And so we accept that sometimes the businesses fail, 1:15:26 but we don't see the failed ones because they're gone. 1:15:28 They just die off. 1:15:30 And so I don't know, maybe it'd be fine if there was like 100 1:15:33 and lots of them are dying all the time. 1:15:36 And people would just accept it as part of something being new. 1:15:40 But it would make it... 1:15:43 It might scare people off of the category. 1:15:46 They might think, oh, some of these Drivechains fail, 1:15:48 whereas Lightning has never failed. 1:15:54 Good luck with that, obviously. 1:15:55 But so it's an interesting idea of could we limit it? 1:15:59 There was originally Matt Corallo, a BTC guy. 1:16:05 This is like in 2016. 1:16:07 No, no, it's like 2019, maybe. 1:16:09 Yeah, it's like early 2019 or something like that. 1:16:13 We happened to be talking about this and he was saying something like 1:16:18 that it should make it so that every time a new Drivechain is added, 1:16:23 it has to go through the Bitcoin Core review process, the code review. 1:16:28 And I kind of thought, well... 1:16:30 And so back then, BIP300 didn't have this thing about how to drop or add the sidechain 1:16:35 because it was kind of just like how to do the deposits and withdrawals. 1:16:38 So it didn't even have that part. 1:16:40 And I kind of thought I had to go the other way because I was kind of saying like 1:16:43 Drivechain is kind of a bet against Bitcoin Core being rational. 1:16:51 And Bitcoin Core has become less over the last seven years. 1:16:54 The rationality has declined, I think. 1:16:57 So I think we don't really want to be gatekeeping them. 1:17:02 But yeah, that was another idea. 1:17:04 The question is, do they want to gatekeep it to ensure the quality is high? 1:17:09 Or do they want to gatekeep it for their own political advantage? 1:17:15 Or do they just not understand this idea of you can't make a perfect thing? 1:17:20 And actually, if you make a perfect thing that has no users, it's also broken anyway. 1:17:26 So I don't know. 1:17:29 But that's an interesting question. 1:17:30 I've never heard that question before about can we limit the... 1:17:33 Can we make the limits smaller? 1:17:35 But I think it's an interesting idea. 1:17:42 And then on the eCash question was, are you reaching out to exchanges to coordinate the 1:17:51 airdrop, the allocation? 1:17:53 Or are you just running the code and then it's up to them? 1:17:58 Because obviously, they will have giant wallets and they will get big allocations. 1:18:02 Yeah, some of them have hundreds of thousands of coins. 1:18:10 We are. 1:18:10 But I think we're like, first, I want to check out the bug situation. 1:18:17 I want to do things in the proper order. 1:18:19 So first, I wanted to let everyone know what's happening. 1:18:22 Then do the bug bounty contest, which we just did the first one only. 1:18:28 So there could still be many more stuff. 1:18:31 We wanted to kind of see that. 1:18:33 So that the software is in a really nice box, wrap it up in a gift wrapped box. 1:18:37 Because they don't want to go to them and say, oh, hey, we do this thing. 1:18:40 Then they're going to ask a question like, okay, where is the software? 1:18:46 And of course, we could give them the software, but I would rather not. 1:18:49 You know what I mean? 1:18:50 I would rather have it be really sanded down and really... 1:18:56 I don't want to be in a situation where we tell them, oh, here's the software. 1:19:02 And then we have to email them and be like, wait a minute, we updated the software. 1:19:06 And then they regret interacting with us. 1:19:10 But yeah, I think we're going to build up from smaller wallets and exchanges 1:19:15 and swap services that are very supportive of us. 1:19:19 And we're going to just do smaller ones, then get bigger ones. 1:19:24 And then maybe 30 days ahead of the fork, we would then take another look at like, 1:19:36 okay, should we make some kind of huge push for this? 1:19:39 I think it's better if we make a more general push first and just see like who can get excited about this, who would invest in this, who would be a user of this, who would develop with this. 1:19:49 So we want to kind of build the general momentum first. So you go to the exchange, say, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of real people, this whole crowd of real people. 1:19:56 We're going to be excited about this, say nothing of what will happen after it launches. People start asking questions about where they can get their free money. 1:20:04 I think the integration will be very easy because the L1 is just Bitcoin Core. The L1 lets you send and receive coins. 1:20:10 So that's what a lot of people will be primarily focused on is either buying coins or selling their coins. 1:20:17 And so that's the L1 is just Bitcoin Core plus the enforcer, which is right next to it. 1:20:24 And so I think it should be very, very, very easy for the exchanges to integrate in terms of just their costs like their technical costs. 1:20:33 So, yeah, we will be doing that, but I want to do it in the proper order is the question. 1:20:37 You know, it's like, let's get rid of all the bugs first. Let's like, you know, let's get a lot of stuff out of the way first. 1:20:43 Then we'll get we'll focus on people who we know will be supportive and we'll build it up. 1:20:51 And. But, yeah, it's already it's already June, so we've got all of June, all of July, and then there'll be. 1:20:59 You know. Four weeks out. So, yeah, but we will be doing that, yes. 1:21:07 All right, cheers. And I did one question just came to me there as well, which was is the on eCash to the sidechains require 90 percent of miners to agree to activate them or is it a different mechanism? 1:21:25 Well, yeah, when I put it in 300, I still think it's a pretty good idea because I was basically just copying. 1:21:35 We had been nine distinct, nine in BTC for a very long time. 1:21:38 I was kind of I was kind of riffing off of what Matt Corral had said to me about how this should be like activating a soft fork. 1:21:45 I think he would never say that now because he knows that all the soft works are dead, dead on arrival. 1:21:50 So you would never you would never say that now. It'd be interesting to hear is an updated abuse. 1:21:57 But that was what I was thinking, and I think it's a good idea because. 1:22:02 In practice, if you have 51 percent, you can get to any other percent by going like scorched earth. 1:22:11 Orphaning the other forty nine percent. So 51 percent kind of equals 100 percent. 1:22:16 So if you're playing dirty, then 51 percent is any percent. 1:22:21 And if you're playing nice, then you're a nice guy, at least. 1:22:25 So those are the only two scenarios. And so the 90 percent threshold is, I think, a pretty good one because it says if you can't get 90 percent for two weeks, how are you going to get like 51 percent for three months? 1:22:40 And you want if the sidechain is not something that the miners understand that they will like, you know, if their heart's not in it. 1:22:52 Then it's probably not safe to use and it's probably not going to be there's not going to be a lot of merge mining. 1:22:57 So I do think there should be a little bit of a friction, a little bit of a barrier that just says, you know, it takes a little bit of participation to to activate. 1:23:10 Now, there's a completely different school of thought that says, actually, if you don't do 51 percent, you produce this toxic limbo. 1:23:16 Like, what if you have 88 percent? Then who exactly do you blame? 1:23:20 The 12 percent that one of them should change or the 38 percent or the 50 percent? 1:23:28 Like, no one knows exactly what to do to get what they want. 1:23:32 But one another reason why you would set the threshold high is. 1:23:38 From the miners point of view, it doesn't really cost them very much to grant the slot to a new piece of software, like a new chain, because they don't really deal with the chaos. 1:23:53 And. 1:23:56 If they, you know, like they just get a bunch of free, it's an opportunity to maybe collect a huge amount of free money versus the cost is very low. 1:24:06 So in general, they should be more biased than anyone else towards adding the chain, whereas the regular users might be annoyed if they see all the slots fill up with garbage chains, it might be kind of confusing. 1:24:20 So actually, the miners should be biased towards activating a chain if they're on the fence. 1:24:26 So it's maybe not the worst thing to keep it at 90 percent. 1:24:30 I can imagine in like five or 10 years, people just thinking that was a silly decision. 1:24:34 Why not just make it 51 percent for everything? 1:24:38 So I'm not sure. The answer is I don't really feel that strongly about it. 1:24:43 Does that answer the question or not at all? 1:24:45 But the miner should be the one. 1:24:48 It nearly answered it. 1:24:50 But what is so is it says what activates the sidechains or it's still up in the air? 1:24:57 Oh, you just mean literally, did we as far as I know, we didn't change it. 1:25:01 The enforcer should be the same. So it should be 90 percent. 1:25:04 Funny, I don't actually know, but it should be easy to find in the Rust. 1:25:14 It should be pretty easy to find. 1:25:16 But yeah, as far as I know, it's still the 90 percent that's in the BIP text. 1:25:23 All right. Thanks very much. 1:25:25 Thank you. 1:25:28 OK, Justin has a hand again. 1:25:31 Hello again. 1:25:33 So a bit of a dumb question, but it would be helpful for those that listen to this on the elsewhere. 1:25:41 Where does the thirteen thousand five hundred fit in? 1:25:48 That is three months, three months of blocks, basically. 1:25:53 OK, thanks. 1:25:56 No problem. 1:25:58 There's basically. 1:26:01 Basically, one thousand blocks a week, one thousand and eight. 1:26:05 So it's not as hard as it is, not as the math is not as impressive as it sounds. 1:26:11 Twenty six thousand twenty six weeks, 52 weeks in a year. 1:26:15 Four ish weeks in a month, you know, so four thousand blocks a month, one thousand blocks a week. 1:26:22 You you also can do block math with your friends. 1:26:29 If you stick to weeks and weeks is easier. 1:26:34 OK, anyone else? 1:26:36 Crab twenty three. 1:26:37 We got more. 1:26:38 So you think twenty three. 1:26:40 Satoshi was assassinated and replaced. 1:26:43 So the assassin took his computer and everything. 1:26:45 I'm not trying to I'm not I'm not trying to make fun of you. 1:26:47 I'm just saying you're the only one who's ever said that. 1:26:49 And I'm intrigued. 1:26:50 I'm honestly intrigued. 1:26:52 And I just want to know the whole details of this. 1:26:55 Yeah, this theory. 1:26:56 Yeah, I do believe that's what happened with them. 1:26:59 Because, again, the if you also if you've paid attention to like all of the dialogue around Bitcoin before and after it was launched and then you compare it to how you was talking in 2010 Bitcoin banks. 1:27:16 We just replaced banks with our own computer. 1:27:19 What the fuck do we need Bitcoin banks for? 1:27:22 You know, I mean, but I think you're referring to him, him referencing how Finney's post about how. 1:27:28 Yeah. 1:27:29 But if I remember correctly. 1:27:32 And it's hard to remember it all, but I think Hal was saying something like. 1:27:36 It could still even if we were stuck in a situation where you could only have so many people use the base layer Bitcoin, it would it could still work to increase the amount of competitiveness each currency faces, because all the currencies of the world, they would have to reckon with Bitcoin as a kind of like a competitor. 1:27:58 And so I think that how Finney's post, I think the post was correct, but I think now it's deranging everyone. 1:28:05 I'm sure you would probably agree with me that like now everyone has like low permanently lowered their standards. 1:28:11 I don't think Hal would accept. 1:28:15 I think if how we're alive today, how it would be like, OK, but we don't have to be stuck in that that terrible. 1:28:22 He was kind of trying to say, like, this is why it would Bitcoin would still work, even if even in this like bad outcome, it would still be great. 1:28:32 I don't think he was saying we should like aim for the bad hour. 1:28:34 We should like work towards the bad outcome. 1:28:37 But anyway, Satoshi was seemed to be saying like he was linking to that and also that economist. 1:28:43 And I get this one and confused with someone else. 1:28:46 I think this is Lawrence or was it I don't remember who it was or I don't remember which person it was, but someone was doing like a study on. 1:28:57 If you had competitive high power money, would it would it still with the rest of the currency also be competitive? 1:29:02 And so Satoshi was saying something like that, that could work. 1:29:08 I don't know if he was thinking like that's his vision for Bitcoin. 1:29:14 I don't know. What do you think? 1:29:16 The point I was getting at there is that it was there's a vast change in reasoning concerning Bitcoin between the time before he launched it and during the time that it was just initially running and then later on. 1:29:31 And the whole introduction of the block size limit, I thought it was contentious to begin with because they set it up to where it would be too late for anybody to even bother thinking about. 1:29:44 Oh, the block size limit is the thing that's causing the fucking network to get congested and people's transactions to get bumped and all this other thing. 1:29:53 It just it doesn't make any sense to me that he would launch the perfect Internet money and then throw in this parameter that completely destroys it. 1:30:03 I mean, it's like either he was the first bait and switch scammer in crypto or it wasn't him that actually added the block size limit. 1:30:13 Well, the conventional story that's told is that someone like complained about denial of service attacking the network with, you know, like kind of fake block that were very large. 1:30:27 And then he was like, oh, yeah, you're right, that that could be used to denial service attack the network. 1:30:33 So I'll put in this limit and then people argue about removing the limit later. 1:30:38 The limit actually created the situation whereby a DDOS attack could actually be successful. 1:30:45 I mean, that's like I've been saying for a while now that the miners are selfish mining blocks. 1:30:52 We're not supposed to be discriminating between transactions. 1:30:55 We're not supposed to be reordering transactions. 1:30:58 These are the things that banks do. 1:31:01 OK, and later on, if we get much further down the road with this, I believe that the legislators are going to start regulating based on that, that if you can do anything that causes somebody's transaction to fail or not go through or not be included in a block that they're going to require you to get licensed and register. 1:31:22 And personally, I feel like this is all part of a much bigger plan to turn Bitcoin into a swift replacement to where there's only licensed and registered people that are mining it or can mine it and that the rest of us got to go figure out something else to do. 1:31:40 But that's pretty much what FediMint and also ARK is. 1:31:46 You have these liquidity pools and liquidity providers that are registered and they're legal and whatever that means. 1:31:53 So I think to a great extent, I've been thinking about this for a long time. 1:31:58 The Bitcoin maximalist thesis makes a lot of sense in respect of making Bitcoin the one currency that succeeds, which I think is beautiful and is very principled in some ways. 1:32:11 But at the same time, it's also the most convenient ideology for the Feds to capture it. 1:32:17 If you actually look at the CIA policy for Bitcoin, you're going to see that there is not anything contentious about Bitcoin maximalism that challenges it. 1:32:28 So in lots of ways, Bitcoin is not Cypherpunk anymore. 1:32:32 In regards to the history of block size increases, there is actually in 2010, if I'm not mistaken, a post on Bitcoin Talk by Jeff Garzik who proposed a client that increased the block size to seven megabytes. 1:32:46 And Satoshi responded to that one and said, don't run the software. 1:32:50 It's too early for that. 1:32:52 So I think there are all sorts of arguments that you can make. 1:32:57 Maybe that, according to Krev's theory, that was the assassinated and replaced Satoshi that said don't run the seven megabytes. 1:33:04 I was going to ask him about that before we got to that. 1:33:06 I was going to say, does the theory include, because Satoshi went on to say, this is how we would phase in, this is how we would phase out the one megabyte limit. 1:33:16 And which a lot of the large blockers hold that up as saying, oh, Satoshi always wanted the limit to be phased out. 1:33:22 He was talking about how he would phase it out. 1:33:24 But that doesn't work if this is the assassin posting that. 1:33:28 So I just thought that would be a funny thing to ask if the assassin is also posting about how to get rid of the limit and putting it in. 1:33:35 It's kind of a, you know, it's an interesting idea. 1:33:39 I think what the attacker was planning there is that it didn't go into effect until 2014. 1:33:46 And if you look back at Bitcoin's history, it was most popular up until that point. 1:33:51 I mean, we had Microsoft doing transactions directly on chain and accepting payments for services and stuff through their website. 1:33:59 I don't know how much more institutional you can get than Microsoft. 1:34:02 I mean, to me, that's like, you know, a definite example of industrial adoption. 1:34:10 Yeah, the full blocks curtailed. 1:34:12 We had we had geometrically increasing adoption, which was then curtailed by the. 1:34:18 But we don't know what other horrors would have awaited us if we did. 1:34:20 Anyway, SatSkala put his hand up. 1:34:22 So I just wanted to let him. 1:34:26 I just was trying to also learn more of Krebs theory. 1:34:29 Like, were you like, what did you where are you getting the original block size for the chain at V1? 1:34:42 It didn't try to understand, like the history of your there was there was no block size limit originally. 1:34:48 And if you read through the white paper, you notice the lack of a book telling you what to do when the blocks are full. 1:34:54 That's where we've been at since. 1:34:57 OK, if I told you there was like a bit of a soft ceiling with that, what would that with that? 1:35:04 Like, what would that do with your opinion and thesis? 1:35:08 You know, if we actually hit a limit, then then we would have something to talk about. 1:35:13 But I mean, we didn't even have enough users to get to. 1:35:16 I think it was like supposedly a theoretical two point four gigabyte block size limit or something like that. 1:35:22 I'm a little smaller than that, but there yeah, there was an effective like soft cap on the sizes of the blocks that had to do with the message, you know, when the message transaction was sent. 1:35:33 So there was limits to the sizes that, you know, of the transactions. 1:35:39 It was 32 by. Yeah. 1:35:41 I didn't want to just come out and say it. 1:35:43 I wanted to see like where he was coming from because I want like there was an effective point to the size of the messages in the transaction. 1:35:49 And then that cap was lowered by said like. 1:35:51 And again, like I'm not I'm not trying to like make the funny like policy, like I'm trying to understand like where this framing comes from. 1:35:58 So if I enter into this conversation with the framing that in fact there was a limit and that that limit was simply lowered, does that alter your thesis at all? 1:36:08 No, not at all. 1:36:10 Well, I think if a minor today was running zero point one, I mean, they would lose out. 1:36:17 I mean, they would lose out on a lot of fees. 1:36:20 Yeah, they would be destroyed. 1:36:22 They could still mine blocks of any size they wanted to. 1:36:26 I think, though, they can't run. 1:36:28 I think it's version six or seven. 1:36:32 I can't remember which one is the last one that you can effectively run. 1:36:37 That's I would have to check and see which ones I because I have some of the like the original version still still online. 1:36:43 And I have to check and see which ones they actually are. 1:36:46 I think this is what you're referring to is that some of them don't even actually synchronize. 1:36:50 That's correct. 1:36:51 They don't. 1:36:52 Yeah. 1:36:53 No deal. 1:36:54 The one will not synchronize with the network at all. 1:36:56 It just doesn't work. 1:36:57 And if you don't run a SegWit and taproot, you may produce accidentally improve invalid blocks as a minor. 1:37:05 The 32 byte message limit. 1:37:07 I'm not sure what to make of it, because if you think about how Bitcoin blocks were basically empty for a while, for years, and then only in 2014, which was like six years in, did they start to become one megabyte? 1:37:23 I don't know if maybe he just thought 32 was just like really, really big. 1:37:27 And you could like it's different messages together. 1:37:30 Maybe even that. 1:37:31 Even though there was there was always a kind of a 32 megabyte block size limit, sort of. 1:37:36 Right. 1:37:37 Maybe he just didn't think of that as a limit. 1:37:42 Like you just thought, well, I just have to. 1:37:44 You know, it's like when you declare a. 1:37:45 Like when you declare like an integer or something and you just kind of pick something that you think is like way bigger than you. 1:37:51 Probably. 1:37:52 I don't know. 1:37:54 I can't. 1:37:55 I can't think of a reason why even back then with hardware limitations, why 32 was was unless like I see, like, we don't know the architecture that he was like originally building on. 1:38:03 Like, like, we know, we know that he had a custom node. 1:38:06 We know that it was probably on some sort of like higher end machine. 1:38:11 But like, we don't. 1:38:13 I was just trying to say, like, I kind of agree with I would kind of be with Kreb when he because inevitably Kreb will say, well, he didn't intentionally put a 32 megabyte thing. 1:38:22 And he just like he wrote the song. 1:38:24 He just assembled the software. 1:38:25 And it kind of like one of the message values is like this default 32 megabyte thing. 1:38:29 But he didn't like declare 32 megabytes. 1:38:33 Holy number. 1:38:34 And so that's true. 1:38:35 Yeah. 1:38:36 Yeah. 1:38:37 It was never declared. 1:38:38 Yeah. 1:38:39 So, you know, having a limit, you know, in those early softwares. 1:38:48 But see, he introduced, I mean, it was like six months later that he dropped it down to one meg. 1:38:53 Right. 1:38:54 It was like, well, according to Kreb, the assassin did this, but according to so far, most other people that Satoshi himself, he put in this one megabyte thing. 1:39:04 And then he described how you could phase it out in response to a direct question. 1:39:09 So he didn't like. 1:39:10 And then even though he described how to phase it out, this is where this is where the block size limit. 1:39:16 It's just there's a lot of evidence on both sides. 1:39:19 And because even though he described that to phase it out, he then intentionally left the project or as maybe Kreb would say, the assassin couldn't keep up the impersonation any longer or whatever it is. 1:39:31 That's right. 1:39:32 And so and so then he left and he did not type. 1:39:36 He didn't he didn't like release a final version of the code or he didn't release like a message saying, by the way, be sure to phase out that. 1:39:44 Whereas in contrast, he did do a lot of other things to future proof. 1:39:49 The software, such as including the ops and which and letting people use them for future software upgrades. 1:39:56 So he kind of future proof to Bitcoin like a lot. 1:39:59 And then he left and a small blocker said, well, he left and he didn't. 1:40:02 He didn't. He kept the one megabyte limit in. 1:40:04 And so and this has been debated to death for for decades by lots of people. 1:40:12 Yeah, and I'm not going to lie. 1:40:14 I, I like the theory, Kreb. 1:40:16 I guess it's a fun theory to think about. 1:40:18 I just was wondering, like, you know, are you are you is this a theory of yours or is it a belief of yours? 1:40:24 That's that's why, like I was I was saying, like if if other things were introduced, like what would that change or would it like is it a theory or a belief? 1:40:32 It's definitely a belief, mostly because if you if you were to read the Bitcoin white paper, it's fully contextualized in terms of PCs. 1:40:41 You know, it's like people that run data centers, they don't worry about things like Moore's law. 1:40:46 But people who are flipping their hardware over every five to eight years because newer, better processors are coming out, they they actually give a shit about Moore's law. 1:40:55 And also Moore's law, it it's one of those things that we kind of casually mentioned in whatever. 1:41:03 But if you really think about how how it shakes out, it's basically a implicit warning to you that any kind of advantage that you gain with with more sophisticated hardware 1:41:15 or specialized hardware, it's temporary and that the rest of the network is going to catch up with you eventually. 1:41:28 OK, that's interesting. 1:41:29 Let's let's ask if any of the audience, though, wants to go back to because we have 16 minutes left. 1:41:38 So if anyone has any. 1:41:41 eCash, hard fork, eCash.com, hard fork questions or other questions, you know, 1:41:49 Paul, super quick, I just wanted to let you know, I did put the bug, the versions of the Mac OS bit window that I had issues with. 1:42:00 So I think it was like dot 77, which is what I'm using and it's working. 1:42:05 And then I think dot 113 is where I first saw. 1:42:09 Were you copy pasting? 1:42:12 No, I was putting that to the guys and yeah, I even put a screenshot in the in the chat. 1:42:20 But even if you just generate wallet, like it's the same thing. 1:42:24 So it just gets stuck. 1:42:25 It just it just spins and does nothing. 1:42:27 And then, as I said, on version 77, it works. 1:42:30 So I see how it's supposed to work. 1:42:31 It just click and it loads the dashboard. 1:42:34 So it's definitely like an issue. 1:42:36 And then I just saw there's a new version dot 114. 1:42:41 I think that just came out maybe today and it's still not working on that either. 1:42:45 So I would just take a look. 1:42:48 I'll test the other platform when I have time. 1:42:51 I have Windows and Linux and Ubuntu as well. 1:42:54 So I'll test and see if it's if it's like consistent. 1:42:57 But but definitely on Mac, that's what I'm using kind of for testing. 1:43:01 So that's where I'm noticing. 1:43:03 But I sent a screenshot just so you can visually see the screen that I'm talking about. 1:43:08 And, you know, confirm I'm sending that to them right now. 1:43:12 So thanks for that. 1:43:13 And I have to run soon, too. 1:43:15 So I want to thank I want to thank Paul. 1:43:17 I want to thank I want to thank everybody else here. 1:43:22 I want to thank. 1:43:23 Hold on one second, guys, I'm sorry, I'm driving to like an idiot talking and driving on the phone. 1:43:28 But I know I am bad. 1:43:31 I am bad, but I want to thank Vlad. 1:43:33 Thank you, Krav. 1:43:34 And thanks, everybody else. 1:43:36 Really appreciate being here. 1:43:36 Thank you very much. 1:43:39 OK, great. 1:43:40 And thank you for your report. 1:43:43 I didn't think I got an answer. 1:43:45 When will Thunder be back? 1:43:46 Like, when do you estimate? 1:43:49 It'll be back now. 1:43:50 Is it back or not? 1:43:50 I don't even know. 1:43:51 I'm still bringing my note back online. 1:43:54 You could go to a note. 1:43:56 You think like today? 1:43:57 Yeah, that's fine. 1:43:58 As long as it's like expected to be back today. 1:43:59 That's cool. 1:44:00 Like, I just want to know if it's like days or whatever. 1:44:04 As soon as you go to node.signet.drivechain.info, if you can remember all those things. 1:44:09 And there's somewhere there's a you click explore. 1:44:13 There's like a thing that shows up. 1:44:15 It's my favorite screen. 1:44:17 Yeah. 1:44:17 You know, the node.signet.drivechain.info. 1:44:20 And you can also go to like other. 1:44:21 But you're talking about the sidechains screen. 1:44:26 If you go to explore, it will show you how many other chains are up and how many blocks they have. 1:44:31 I'm looking at it on main change. 1:44:33 Main sorry. 1:44:34 Main chain shows height three thirty four last block, seven minutes and every other sidechain shows height zero. 1:44:45 Oh, interesting. 1:44:45 I think they must have activated and maybe they're not being mined. 1:44:49 That is, again, maybe it's just not unusual. 1:44:52 Maybe it's just not on the front end, but I'm going to be running some tests very shortly. 1:44:57 So I'll know very soon if it's actually running on the back on like the actual network is running. 1:45:01 OK, well, I'll turn it back on. 1:45:03 I will message. 1:45:05 Because I just want to reiterate that we actually ran it for like more than a year without having it. 1:45:12 You know, I sent you a screenshot of the before. 1:45:17 And so I know I believe me, I trust you because I saw the blocks. 1:45:20 So I was like, where'd all the blocks go? 1:45:23 Because I have a screenshot now before the resetting. 1:45:28 So, yeah, I saw it was like 16,000. 1:45:31 Yeah. OK, thanks for bringing that up. 1:45:36 I will message about that. 1:45:38 So I think they activated it. 1:45:40 That's a day. 1:45:43 Is that like all of them? 1:45:44 Because besides Thunder, I would really appreciate a BitAssets was back up. 1:45:49 So are you expecting all of them to like come back at the same time? 1:45:53 Well, let me think, I, you know, we have various things tracking. 1:45:58 Let's see. I think. 1:46:00 Yeah. They all activated at 8 a.m. 1:46:06 roughly this morning. 1:46:09 But then I guess no one's mining them. 1:46:10 That's yeah, I expected that. 1:46:13 OK, that's still worth it. 1:46:14 Mining turned back on. 1:46:15 Yeah, I just like I said, it's really Cignet LDL one that I wanted. 1:46:21 Oh, you know, it actually is possible. 1:46:22 No, never mind. This is impossible. 1:46:24 I was going to say, but never mind. I had a different idea. 1:46:27 No worries. I appreciate you getting the 1:46:30 the Cignet challenge because that's working again. 1:46:32 Like I'm back. I'm back on the live network. 1:46:34 So so I should be good. 1:46:36 And if I have anything else, like, is it can I like post to the to the GitHub 1:46:40 like an issue without work? 1:46:44 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 1:46:45 OK, perfect. I'll do that. 1:46:47 I'm going to do some more testing now, because I guess that I yesterday 1:46:50 I just like it just like hit like a brick wall and everything just stopped working. 1:46:54 But I'm pretty at least at all. 1:46:56 No, no, no worries at all. 1:46:58 I mean, it was a day. So that was that was fine. 1:46:59 It was like a week. So so I'm back up now. 1:47:02 I just want to finish like what I was doing. 1:47:05 And then I will definitely post in the GitHub like, you know, my findings. 1:47:11 OK, great. Yeah. 1:47:12 People found some great bugs to enter the contest. 1:47:16 People use very interesting techniques. 1:47:18 And so we were like, well, we're fixing all these bugs. 1:47:22 We'll just reset. So it's very hard. 1:47:24 We got a Joe with a hand. 1:47:25 Hello, Joe. Hey. 1:47:29 Yeah, so just actually related to the block size questions, 1:47:33 but more Drivechain cash related. 1:47:37 I do really think it's realistic. 1:47:39 Like, obviously, a huge fan of the project. 1:47:42 This is a minor criticism, but the block size reduction. 1:47:47 Don't you think it like, I guess, do you think it's realistic 1:47:50 that exchanges are going to list separate sidechains, 1:47:55 which themselves might have different exchange rates 1:48:00 if the block size is kind of is this small? 1:48:04 And because people to move back to. 1:48:07 OK, you get that. Yeah. 1:48:09 I was going to say you're thinking like very few people would use the L1 1:48:14 so they have to list under also. 1:48:19 Yeah, well, very few people can if these are relatively high, at least, 1:48:23 you know, the arbitrage would be to go back to L1 from Thunder. 1:48:28 Let's say you get on board to that. 1:48:30 Then you have to go and peg in. 1:48:32 So that's a fee. 1:48:33 One or two transactions on L1. 1:48:36 Then you get your other coin. 1:48:38 Whereas, obviously, you can on board directly into each sidechain. 1:48:42 But the the exchange rates might be different across them 1:48:48 just to account for this arbitrage of going back to L1 1:48:52 and then pegging in and pegging out everything. 1:48:55 So, yeah, I agree. 1:48:56 It could be like 99 cents on the dollar. 1:48:59 So I think it probably would. 1:49:03 At first, the exchange probably thinking like, OK, this is BTC airdrop. 1:49:07 People, a lot of people want to dump the coin, 1:49:10 and a lot of people will be thinking like, where's my free coin? 1:49:14 So that's kind of like what the thinking would be for L1. 1:49:18 And, you know, it's a new project. 1:49:20 And so so I think that that would be part of the L1 thinking. 1:49:27 Then if the L2s were popular. 1:49:30 And in fact, if they had lower fee, similar to how BTC like Kraken 1:49:34 added the lightning network. 1:49:38 Like to deposit and withdraw from Kraken. 1:49:40 Yes. And like some people did liquid, maybe I'm sure. 1:49:44 So it would kind of be a little like that, right? 1:49:47 It's basically the same thing. 1:49:48 Instead of running like lightning, they have to do the whole Kraken 1:49:51 lightning integration. 1:49:53 They have to have a lightning node talking to their L1 node. 1:49:56 So then this is kind of the same thing, except it's much easier 1:49:58 because, of course, the lightning node is extremely temperamental. 1:50:02 And you have all these channels and. 1:50:05 So it's it's totally easier. 1:50:07 Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, although like by the same logic 1:50:12 of how do you onboard everybody to the L1? 1:50:16 You you would still think we would probably be saving in our L1. 1:50:20 So we need still at least like one transaction per person. 1:50:25 You know, I don't know how long often people would transact 1:50:28 with their savings around, but but I just think that logic. 1:50:31 I mean, like the people redeeming, yeah, the people splitting the coins. 1:50:35 Yeah. And then like, oh, so not even just that, but also if people are going 1:50:39 to invest and hold on to the cash in the future, you know, it'll be treated 1:50:42 sort of as as like a money, then you'd think they want to be on the L1. 1:50:47 And then I just kind of see that, OK, people probably are willing 1:50:51 to pay relatively high fees to move their savings around, 1:50:54 you know, once or twice a year. 1:50:57 But that will still kind of inhibit the arbitrage, 1:51:00 allowing coins to move between L2s 1:51:04 because there's got to be two transactions now. 1:51:07 So I just wonder if it'll look a little bit ugly 1:51:10 if we under shoot for block size. 1:51:13 Well, if it's two thousand five hundred or two, let's say 1:51:16 just two thousand transactions per block right now. 1:51:19 And then it's one thousand blocks per week. 1:51:21 There's two million transactions per week. 1:51:23 So it's kind of a lot. 1:51:26 Now, I think I agree with you. 1:51:27 Like I was kind of like really proud of myself when I thought of this idea. 1:51:30 Oh, I have the smaller block size. 1:51:31 This is back in, you know, people cared more about the block size. 1:51:35 I think now, if anything, everyone is like. 1:51:40 I don't know what the word or how to explain this would be, 1:51:42 but like it's kind of like people want to push the envelope. 1:51:47 The question is, like, how can you get users and you have like Solana 1:51:50 and you have like whatever base and you have all this other stuff 1:51:52 where it's like super, super, super large block, 1:51:55 but like just sprint to the user experience 1:51:59 and people don't even care that much about either way. 1:52:03 The small block size of Bitcoin or the decentralization of Bitcoin, 1:52:06 and maybe it's partially because bandwidth speeds and things have improved. 1:52:09 Like you don't really hear that much about BTC being valuable 1:52:13 because the block size is so small and it's so easy to run a full node. 1:52:17 You just instead you just hear people say stuff like we can never change 1:52:21 the sacred BTC, change it in any way, 1:52:25 let alone move the block size up or down or sideways or anything. 1:52:28 So I kind of don't think there's more of an appetite for like 1:52:33 people are more afraid 1:52:36 of than I thought. 1:52:37 This is much this is different than how I expected. 1:52:40 People are much more what they like to hear is that 1:52:45 our L1 is just the same as Bitcoin Core. 1:52:46 We're just going to copy Bitcoin Core. 1:52:48 So they really like that much, much more than I thought they would. 1:52:54 And I don't know if anyone really cares so much about this all like 1:52:58 lower L1 block size. 1:53:00 So my opinion on it is changing a lot. 1:53:02 I would say like maybe now it would even be like I've already been at the case 1:53:05 where I would say something like it would be the same block size for like a year 1:53:09 and then drop down. 1:53:11 And so I'm feeling less and less good about it over time. 1:53:17 So you're right to complain about it, I suppose, because I kind of think now it's like 1:53:21 it doesn't even no one will even care either way. 1:53:24 And so right, whatever. 1:53:27 Yeah, just like my two. 1:53:30 Like my two cents on that is just like I was a small blocker back 1:53:34 during the block size wars, but I think it's kind of a threshold thing. 1:53:36 And I think it's more about do we want to always accommodate more usage 1:53:41 and then just commit ourselves to always going up like that? 1:53:44 I find kind of ugly and not the right answer. 1:53:47 But it is. 1:53:49 But like for now, yeah, like does lowering it actually attract more people? 1:53:53 I don't know. I kind of think one megabyte or whatever it is. 1:53:57 As Bitcoin right now is pretty small and fine. 1:54:00 And then I just worry about UI sort of, you know, what happens if you know, 1:54:06 like I want to be able to transact on L1, you may not trust the L2 all the time. 1:54:10 And then having the onboarding have to be you on board to Truthcoin to BitAssets. 1:54:15 So each exchange is going to have four different L2s 1:54:19 that are then going to be expensive to move between. 1:54:21 So they might be different in price 1:54:25 more than point nine nine, but could be, you know, a little bit more than that. 1:54:29 You know, just because like if you have one arbitrage 1:54:34 moving the coins for you, I think you're still going to have to make a lot of outputs. 1:54:38 So I think his transaction fees are still going to be high. 1:54:41 Like ultimately, somebody is going to hold the L1 coins. 1:54:44 So it could be a quite a high transaction 1:54:47 fee he'd have to pay as he is 1:54:50 as the ultimately the coins have to end up in different UTXOs on the L1. 1:54:55 So my math is kind of like, well, 1:54:59 there might actually be quite a big difference between L2s. 1:55:03 But I could be wrong there, though. 1:55:08 I think another reason to not change it is a kind of a part of the idea. 1:55:14 Of how of my idea of my conception of how 1:55:18 hard fork would be most effective is that it's like a very pure experiment. 1:55:21 So it's like a scientific experiment. 1:55:23 We're going to try to like control for as many things as possible. 1:55:27 And you wouldn't want to be in a situation where you have to like explain 1:55:30 or justify or whatever. 1:55:31 Someone says, oh, this this is happening on BTC and this is happening on eCash. 1:55:36 And someone says, well, that's because they changed the L1 block size. 1:55:39 And it's like maybe it's just better to just keep everything a carbon copy 1:55:44 identical so that it's only a referendum on 1:55:49 basically like BIP300, the technology and not anything else. 1:55:53 And maybe like we don't do like multiple too many experiments at once. 1:55:57 To some extent, it's inevitable, of course. 1:55:59 But so that's another. 1:56:03 Reason to maybe just not do it, 1:56:04 because it's very easy to just not do something. 1:56:07 It's also like I thought it was cool. 1:56:10 No, no. Yeah, I like it, too. 1:56:13 For as far as like a messaging, you know, making this point. 1:56:18 But it's also kind of like, well, if one megabyte isn't enough or whatever, 1:56:22 it's like an inherited problem. 1:56:24 You know, Bitcoin's got the same problem. 1:56:25 Why? Yeah. Why do we want to start to compete on multiple dimensions? 1:56:30 You know, it seems a 1:56:33 bad, you know, seems like a cost. 1:56:39 So I think you're right. 1:56:41 To your point, OK, it's three fifty nine. 1:56:42 So last chance, Paul, we got one question 1:56:48 that I just remembered. 1:56:48 I was looking into the coin types for just kind of routing purposes, 1:56:55 working on some cross cross chain stuff. 1:56:59 And I kind of saw like the default 1:57:03 for BTC was what you were using 1:57:08 for the BIP 44 coin type. 1:57:10 So like the actual coin type was zero, which is which is assigned to BTC. 1:57:16 So like this, like I think it's a slip slip 44 list 1:57:21 where everyone picks a number, picks an ID for their for their chain. 1:57:27 What's the plan there? 1:57:28 Because otherwise you know what you're talking about. 1:57:31 Yeah. And it's a little bit of a debate about this. 1:57:35 I have total contempt for all these things. 1:57:37 And I think we're going to fight to the death. 1:57:39 Otherwise the other cross chain, if you guys don't. 1:57:42 Yeah, but actually other people say correctly and they say, well, hey, 1:57:46 look, this is the standard and this is the why would we why on earth 1:57:50 would we do anything other than adhere to the standard? 1:57:53 Because it's like people could like lose coins and it's like whatever. 1:57:57 So if I had my way, it would just be forget about like M slash 44 slash 1:58:02 whatever, I would just be doing like M1, M2, M3 or whatever. 1:58:05 And then the sidechains would restart. 1:58:07 But there'd be like one one node down the tree 1:58:12 because I would just be like, forget it. 1:58:13 And all these other coins are going to we're going to break 1:58:15 all these other coins anyway. 1:58:17 That type of thing. 1:58:18 Let's just start with what you're doing, because I like 1:58:21 that's what it looks like you're doing. 1:58:23 Well, that's it depends on whoever I was talking to. 1:58:28 And so I think the question you're asking is like, 1:58:31 what is it like the BDK Bitwindow wallet doing or something? 1:58:34 I don't even know. 1:58:34 I just I don't know what your protocol is going to be 1:58:37 in terms of like interchain communication. 1:58:39 Because I think we're going to have to do it for the chain derivations. 1:58:43 We're going to have to have the L1. 1:58:46 Be like the 44 where you have like a coin type or whatever. 1:58:51 I would advise you to do that. 1:58:52 Otherwise, you don't play nicely with anyone else. 1:58:56 Right. And, you know, there'll be a lot of like people like whatever, 1:58:59 like we're talking like, you know, cake wallet, edge wallet, whatever. 1:59:02 Who will want it to not be confused? 1:59:05 Here's the other thing, though, is does it actually matter? 1:59:07 The world works off of that. Yeah. 1:59:10 Well, question is, does it actually matter that much? 1:59:12 Because, well, this is takes a longer time to explain, 1:59:16 but it's kind of like, so what if you. 1:59:21 Well, OK, it's like kind of hard to explain, but it's but I don't. 1:59:25 The short version is I think a lot of this stuff is kind of overblown. 1:59:28 And but, you know, whatever. 1:59:30 Like, I do also think. 1:59:32 If whatever, give the devil his due or that like it's kind of like 1:59:35 I want to be like, I totally hear you and I agree with you. 1:59:39 I just think it's one of those things like you just have to do. 1:59:43 You don't want to. 1:59:44 You just have to do it and just create issues. 1:59:47 I think I noticed that for the L2s, I think I got my way where I just said 1:59:52 it's like the sidechain number hardened. 1:59:55 Then it's just one, two, three, four, five, six. 1:59:57 Totally. And that makes sense. 1:59:58 Point of matter that makes total sense. Yeah. 2:00:01 So I think I got my way with that one. 2:00:03 And then for 44, people talk to me out of it because they were like, 2:00:08 it's literally insane not to adhere to the standard. 2:00:10 I think. And I agree with them. 2:00:13 Probably that's going to how that's how it's going to shake out. 2:00:16 So, yeah, I know I do that. 2:00:17 I definitely listen to people, people, you know, people debate me all the time. 2:00:21 I don't always get it right on the very first thought that I have. 2:00:26 But yeah, I think I couldn't believe, you know, bit 44. 2:00:29 I don't think it's that good. 2:00:30 It's not that I have anything wrong with it, but just the fact that 2:00:33 they're just all so ugly and the whole thing is confusing 2:00:36 and it becomes its own private key. 2:00:38 It's like a second private key that you need, which defeats the whole point. 2:00:41 It's not even about that. 2:00:42 Like I tell you about the protocol and specification. 2:00:44 It's just about like to me, it's about consensus, like everyone agreed 2:00:47 like this is the way it's going to work, like that, that kind of like 2:00:50 they snuck it past the goalie and it's too late. 2:00:52 But I think that everyone, because about 90 percent of society 2:00:55 is not participating in Bitcoin yet. 2:00:57 And then if you add in the future, people, they're 2:00:59 that's kind of what I also think of society, but that kind of that's 2:01:02 still the U.S. kids are all the time, but it doesn't matter. 2:01:06 That's that's only the T.C. 2:01:07 Like the EVM world is hot. 2:01:09 Take a shit like ever. 2:01:10 That's why you guys are sitting there arguing about why it's so dark. 2:01:12 No, because in the EVM world, it works really, really well, 2:01:15 like really, really well. 2:01:17 So like not adhering to something that already works really, really well. 2:01:20 It doesn't really make sense to me since we're doing it differently. 2:01:25 I think I was just disappointed by how we how we did all this wacky stuff. 2:01:29 And I just think that. 2:01:32 I don't know, I just I think adhering to made up standards 2:01:35 is how we got into this shithole we're in right now. 2:01:37 But yeah, it's not I'm not arguing for the standard. 2:01:39 I'm arguing for consensus. 2:01:41 Like we should all agree. 2:01:41 Well, there's no such thing as you can't combine it. 2:01:43 You can't even define consensus. 2:01:45 It's just a bunch of retarded, selfish minors. 2:01:47 Paul, question. 2:01:48 All right. Last question. 2:01:50 Last question of the day. 2:01:50 Can you explain to me and like as as like a serious 2:01:54 act, like I'm not going to be convinced by whatever hand wavy bullshit 2:01:57 the Maxis throw up. 2:01:58 Give me a reason why smaller blocks like why the fuck are you going smaller? 2:02:03 Like what's the point other than to arbitrarily force the fee rate up 2:02:06 to make it seem like people are making money? 2:02:08 What is the reason beyond that? 2:02:09 Yes, Joe, Joe and I just discussed that it does. 2:02:13 It makes running a full node cheaper and easier. 2:02:16 One hundred and twenty eight terabyte fucking micro SD chips today, Paul. 2:02:22 It also makes it easier to hide the physical location of the node, 2:02:24 which is interesting. 2:02:26 And if you like are a paranoid person and you think, oh, the government's 2:02:29 going to try to shut all this down and they're going to make a list of 2:02:32 the access to Bitcoin right now, Paul, I know. 2:02:36 All I'm trying to do is say is you got to step out of this 2:02:38 chamber that these people put you in all the time. 2:02:40 It's going to it's going to really fuck your project up, dude. 2:02:43 Like you had a whole bunch of small, blocking, brain dead, fucking retards 2:02:46 up here all day long. 2:02:47 And I respect everyone's take. 2:02:49 But you guys are just wrong, man. 2:02:51 Like you should be going for the cheapest possible L1 transaction fee. 2:02:55 And that's that. 2:02:55 Stop trying to make Bitcoin standards or dog shit. 2:02:59 Don't copy them. 2:03:00 Do not copy them or you will fail. 2:03:02 Thirty two megabytes is way better than two megabytes, my dude. 2:03:05 And it's the same thing on the node runner. 2:03:07 They're not going to give a fuck. 2:03:10 I think the thinking was kind of like you could beat these people at their 2:03:13 own game where they say, OK, the reason BTC is the best is we have 2:03:16 actually have the smallest block size, unlike BCH, unlike BSV. 2:03:19 Yeah. And if I went to fucking Philadelphia and started argue with meth heads, 2:03:22 I could win that argument, too. 2:03:23 What's the point? 2:03:26 Then it's kind of like, well, then this one would be even smaller. 2:03:28 So that was kind of like part of the. 2:03:30 I think you're doing yourself a disservice here. 2:03:32 I think Drivechains plus cheap fees on the L1 is the killer app. 2:03:36 I think if you expect people to pay a dollar and two dollars for your 2:03:40 worthless altcoin chain, you're going to lose day one. 2:03:43 Don't do that. 2:03:45 OK, but there are still very small blocks. 2:03:48 No, stop arguing with fucking retards on Twitter, too. 2:03:51 Jesus. I am on Twitter. 2:03:53 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 2:03:53 You guys spend all day long arguing with the dumbest motherfuckers. 2:03:56 Doesn't mean that you're right. 2:03:57 There is. I am right. 2:03:59 Nick Sabo. 2:03:59 I did this seven years ago. 2:04:00 Paul, you're going to make all the same mistakes. 2:04:02 Listen to this fucking transactions with short radio waves that were used during the Cold War. 2:04:07 Nobody's ever going to do that. 2:04:08 I think you're not a single person ever in a situation where you don't need the Internet. 2:04:12 That's very cool. 2:04:12 Nobody's ever going to do that. 2:04:14 If that's the case, your whole family's dead in a ditch. 2:04:18 Why would anyone use any of the big block sidechains if you already have a main chain that has 2:04:25 high throughput? 2:04:26 It makes no sense. 2:04:26 There is no high throughput. 2:04:27 What are you talking about? 2:04:28 Show me where is the high throughput in the room with us? 2:04:30 No, but that was your premise that you did that. 2:04:33 I want you to have the high throughput. 2:04:34 No, you're in your chain. 2:04:35 I'm telling you, you're going to cuck your entire system by expecting people to be paying 2:04:40 dollars for a worthless altcoin. 2:04:41 Technically, that's just the truth. 2:04:44 Like you need to be pennies. 2:04:45 It needs to be pennies, Paul. 2:04:46 OK, pennies. 2:04:48 On the L2, on the L2. 2:04:50 No, on the L1. 2:04:50 It's going to be 1 to 10 pennies. 2:04:53 All right. 2:04:53 It's fucking adoption and you don't deserve to survive. 2:04:56 You can't just hijack the fee rate up and expect it to win. 2:04:59 We got to love the passion. 2:05:01 Yeah, I think that's the kind of guy we don't want involved. 2:05:03 Yeah, that's why I've outperformed you your whole life in this space while you sit on 2:05:07 Twitter arguing about glass houses and shit with a bunch of retarded red eyes. 2:05:11 Fucking retards, OK? 2:05:13 OK, all right. 2:05:14 Hey, but when you joined like the last two weeks, you were like thinking that I'm like 2:05:17 anti ordinals or whatever. 2:05:18 So I was just making sure you were aware of the fact that you're going to have them on 2:05:22 your chain and you should have a wallet and you should be approaching companies like experts 2:05:25 to make sure that people can like, you know, create markets on the L1 for that stuff that's 2:05:29 already going to be there because you're forking the data. 2:05:33 OK, well, there you go. 2:05:36 I think we'll have to leave it there. 2:05:38 That was great, though. 2:05:39 Always slower start. 2:05:41 We had a good start this time, but usually then by the time we get to the end, there's 2:05:44 always it's always it's so passionate, you know, you can see that you have to listen 2:05:48 to a bunch of fucking maxi retards who have never done anything in this space except for 2:05:52 use Bitcoin. 2:05:52 Like, I don't know, it's great. 2:05:55 All right. 2:05:56 Yeah. 2:05:56 But, you know, Bitcoin and Bitcoin, number one, it's number one. 2:05:59 That doesn't mean you should learn everything else, though. 2:06:01 Everything else is here as well. 2:06:02 You guys got to understand the whole space, not just the little bubble you live in. 2:06:07 That's why you're talking about you need users, right? 2:06:09 That's how you get them. 2:06:10 You go, you meet them where they are. 2:06:11 You don't tell the users to come and get across the lake and make a build a boat and get to 2:06:16 you. 2:06:16 You don't say that to the users. 2:06:17 You go to the users and say, hey, users, here's everything you wanted. 2:06:21 We gave it to you. 2:06:22 And they don't want small blocks. 2:06:24 Look at how many people make transactions on Bitcoin. 2:06:26 It's not y'all motherfuckers. 2:06:28 It's the ordinals motherfuckers. 2:06:29 So I don't know what users you're trying to attract here. 2:06:32 That's all. 2:06:34 They're not on Bitcoin. 2:06:35 All right, good point. 2:06:36 We got to, you know, we want users. 2:06:40 But some users want different things. 2:06:41 So not all users are alike. 2:06:43 And not all users are alike every day in the morning. 2:06:48 Go ask them for an explorer link of their last transaction on Bitcoin. 2:06:51 And they can't even find one because it's been five years since any of these faggots 2:06:54 made an L1 transaction because all they do is hold it in Robinhood. 2:06:57 Why is their opinion valid in any argument? 2:07:03 All right. 2:07:03 Well, I think we should leave it there, though. 2:07:06 So this has been fun. 2:07:07 Hey, come back again next week. 2:07:13 Only if Joe's here. 2:07:14 I want to make sure Joe's here next week. 2:07:18 All right. 2:07:19 Somehow it sounds very ominous. 2:07:21 But OK, great. 2:07:23 So this has been really fun. 2:07:25 Thanks, everyone. 2:07:26 I was arguing for the higher block size, actually. 2:07:31 Yeah, but we still need you guys here. 2:07:32 You know, you guys got to show up. 2:07:33 We got to have a nice argument. 2:07:35 Anything to Shamari. 2:07:37 Ask for technical advice. 2:07:38 Please, God save us. 2:07:42 It's funny that you don't have a telegram, Shamari. 2:07:44 I mean, all the cool kids are doing it. 2:07:46 They do KYC, you know, if you want a telegram, you have to have a phone number. 2:07:52 It's true. 2:07:52 It's that. 2:07:53 Yeah, that's true. 2:07:54 Yeah. 2:07:54 Good point. 2:07:54 Yeah. 2:07:55 I know a couple of people who switched the signal off of they got off telegram and they 2:07:59 switched the signal. 2:08:00 Yeah, I'm a bad guy for sure. 2:08:02 Yeah. 2:08:04 All right. 2:08:05 We'll make a Drivechain signal. 2:08:06 You know, I can do Discord. 2:08:07 I have a Discord. 2:08:08 If you guys do a Discord channel, I'll be there. 2:08:12 All right, cool. 2:08:12 Okay. 2:08:13 Thanks, everyone. 2:08:14 Thanks to everyone who participated. 2:08:16 See everyone later. 2:08:17 Have a nice rest of your day, everyone. 2:08:20 Goodbye. 2:08:20 Thanks.
