0:00 Okay, hello. 0:07 Hello. 0:09 Hello. 0:11 Welcome. 0:13 I just want to let you know your mic is working just fine. You are audible and you are ready to go. 0:19 Okay, great. Thank you. 0:21 I got some notes about items of the week. 0:24 To just possibly discuss, but if anyone has any questions they can hop up. 0:29 I have a question. 0:31 Sure. 0:33 Well, this is kind of like a funny type of question. Wait, are you aware of like what meme quins are like the crypto coins. 0:43 I didn't quite you cut out a little bit you say I'm aware of what meme coins are. Yeah, I said are you aware of what meme coins are. 0:51 Yeah, it's like a coin that's like only a meme, basically, but it's for fun. And, I mean, I would think of that as mostly like, like Dogecoin or something like that. 1:03 Yeah, what is it going. Yes. 1:07 Yeah, well that's kind of kind of involved in the space so I kind of, you know, like to do some stuff with that so it's very nice to see I know you're very you've been in the space and I've been following up with your content and everything with Truthcoin and yeah it's really cool stuff. 1:31 Oh, thank you. 1:37 Okay. Are you, are you aware of this lot of blockchain sorry I'll make this quick. 1:43 Yeah, I know there's already. 1:46 Someone has already done this eCash salon a thing, and we have a posted about how will like the will treat the creator fees as if someone is buying the token. 2:00 The real cash, so that's like a neat way of making it somewhat real. So instead of being merely a meme. 2:08 It will also have some trade in value. 2:12 And I explained that in the post. 2:19 So there you go. 2:21 Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's kind of cool to see something like that it would be, I think would be even cooler, if it was you to like, make your own, like type meme coin I'm adopting a meme coin from someone else who made it even though you get the creator fees when it's traded is 2:35 cool but coming from you I think it would be even a better experience so. Yeah, I think what the thing is, we could make it so that anyone who does the anything with the trader fees. 2:49 Because again, I was just saying we'll just interpret that as, as buying the token, but I don't want to get too crazy. 2:57 Okay, let me. 2:59 Sorry you cut off. 3:00 I don't want to get too crazy like in terms of like too much to explain and, and have people cross referencing like hundred spreadsheets and stuff. 3:09 Oh, okay. Wait. 3:11 Okay. 3:12 If you make a meme coin live on Spaces would that be cool. 3:16 No, it would not. 3:18 Oh, you don't think so sorry about that. I do not. 3:21 Okay, let me give you my. 3:23 I got some notes of the week. 3:26 So maybe these will. 3:31 If people want to ask about these or anything else then let me know. 3:37 So first of my note of the week is rusty Russell is leaving lightning even though he was basically like the smartest is one of the super smart, most experienced Bitcoin developers. 3:54 He headed up blocks from see lightning project which is like this super important core infrastructure lightning like back end project. 4:03 And he's also like very polite. 4:06 And he was part of the, you know, during the block size war he was one of the few people that actually said like reasonable things and tried to reign in the, the rudeness and kind of chaos of the, the whole thing. 4:22 And so then you had like other people like Samson now who are sort of capitalizing on it, but he was trying to reign it in. 4:28 And so he's like basically one of the top people in the, like, in terms of integrity, knowledge and experience. 4:38 He's like one of the top people in the whole industry. 4:41 And he's now apparently quitting lightning and quitting Bitcoin going back to work on Linux, which is what he was doing before. 4:48 And so that just speaks to the ongoing death of lightning. 4:51 That's like, there's nowhere to go with lightning. 4:53 You can't do anything about that. 4:57 And, you know, so you could say, like, how would we compare that to, like, the endless hype that comes from, like, many Bitcoin or so you have, like, Michael Saylor saying, oh, everyone's going to be rich. 5:12 And then you have to compare that to all the lightning people like Fiat Josh and myself who were telling you the whole time that this lightning thing is not going to pan for years. 5:23 We're talking about that. 5:25 So that's one item of the week. 5:28 Also, item number two on the list, we actually finished raising the five million dollar round. 5:41 So it was mostly closed before we publicly announced. 5:49 But in before the Las Vegas conference in April, but it was mostly closed then, but it has since filled up and it's now finished. 5:59 So that does that's very interesting that, you know, obviously, on one hand, we have a lot of haters, which is fine. 6:06 But it does prove that there's a large appetite for this project to some extent. 6:11 And so there's a lot of external validation. 6:13 So I was going to announce that tomorrow morning by tweet. 6:16 But I guess if you shut up here, then you heard it first. 6:19 Yes, I have a question. 6:23 Do you think I could maybe get a follow back? 6:25 I just want to keep up with you. 6:26 Maybe you could talk to the. 6:29 OK, sure. 6:30 I will follow you. 6:33 OK, great. 6:35 And we also have this bug bounty. 6:38 This is a hundred thousand dollars. 6:41 It's been going for about a week and a little. 6:45 So maybe I lost track of time, but I don't know. 6:47 It's been going for a little while and it's five rounds with twenty thousand dollars each round. 6:54 It will probably increase that because it's been going very well. 6:58 And the idea is if you report bugs and whoever finds the most wins, basically, although there are different categories of bug. 7:07 And so if you find more severe bugs, it's way makes it way more likely that you will win. 7:15 And so people have been sending in bugs, which is very good. 7:17 And I could explain more about that. 7:20 But you can read about it on the. 7:26 And the announcement page, so if you go to either eCash.com or if you go to drivechain.info and find the article section. 7:34 It's up there both times and you can see kind of how it works. 7:38 And so that's been great. 7:42 I also have on my list. Michael Saylor is selling. 7:46 Zach Vol has a hilarious meme. 7:50 It's pretty good meme maker. And he was like. 7:56 Oh, I don't know exactly. I can't do the exact joke. 7:58 But it was something like, you know, you bought every local top and now you're down only to break even for like seven years. 8:08 And then you said you would never sell. And now you're selling. 8:11 And so you ever can go to sailor tracker dot com. 8:14 We have to break the spell that Michael Saylor has any idea what he's talking about, which he mostly does not. 8:20 And you go to sailor tracker dot com and you'll see that he's he's mostly new and he mostly overpaid. 8:26 He's down something like 10 percent. 8:30 And he has lost a huge amount of money by getting involved with BTC. 8:35 And he sold, you know, 400 million dollars worth of micro strategy stock for for cash. 8:42 Although I heard that he is sold the 400 million in cash so that he could buy Bitcoin personally. 8:50 And then I was thinking, oh, well, maybe he doesn't understand Bitcoin after all. 8:53 You know what I mean? He's like he's scamming the MSTR people. 8:57 He's walking away with the real Bitcoin, you know, like he's walking away with real Bitcoin and with real millions of dollars. 9:05 And he's just giving people the worthless MSTR stock. 9:09 So I was like, well, maybe he doesn't understand how Bitcoin works. 9:16 He understands how to scam you so that he can get more Bitcoin for himself. 9:20 I thought that's funny. OK, I have a note here about this Solana token. 9:27 We already talked about it. There's a page eCash.com slash S.O.L. token. 9:32 So we'll answer all of your Solana questions. 9:35 And it's only the top five can redeem. 9:39 That's to minimize the amount of headache. 9:41 And it doesn't matter if you aren't in the top five, you can shop around, sell to them. 9:47 So the value is a clever thing where the value gets. 9:51 Pumped into the token, if it's the case that more education about eCash will increase the value of eCash, which I think is true, so. 10:06 OK, I have one other thing on my list, but yeah, feel free to to come up and ask about the August hard fork. 10:15 If you have any questions or complaints. I posted the thread of like, oh, we have these. 10:23 You know, when we announced it, of course, there were some people who who complain. 10:27 And of course, they have like the dumbest complaints in the whole universe. 10:30 But, you know, they were like. But of course, then they're not going to come here to talk on the Twitter space. 10:38 But, you know, we can at least kind of say we can at least throw it out there and offer them. 10:44 To give them an offer to show up and maybe they can explain what why it's such a bad idea in person, but we know that they won't. 10:54 But the point is, you know. That's kind of the point is that they will show up. 11:05 And I have some more some other notes on the week, so if. 11:14 We can just keep doing those, but if it's more important that if anyone has any questions about. 11:20 The. You know, the hard fork or anything else. 11:27 Hey, Paul, can you hear me? Yes. Hey, thanks for having me on. 11:32 Just want to ask you quickly about the website you just mentioned for the meme coin. 11:38 So on there you have a thing saying that the top five holders can swap up to five times each. 11:46 Could you maybe like just explain what the swapping five times each means? 11:51 And like, is there some kind of like game theory element to that or or what's the point in the five times each part? 11:58 Thanks. Yeah, that limits it to just twenty five total interactions between me and the. 12:04 People or whoever and the people. 12:10 So that they can then because otherwise it would be too annoying to deal with it all. 12:19 Right. So but why wouldn't everyone just swap all the tokens all at once? 12:24 No, the ideal thing for everyone is to have one guy buy up all of the at the end, you know, like in August 30th or whatever, one guy buy up all of the meme token and swap it one time because that minimizes the total headache for everyone. 12:41 So hopefully that makes sense. 12:56 Maybe it doesn't, I don't know, but trust me, it's a really, really, really good idea. And if you just think about it. 13:02 Right. Yeah. So go ahead. Go ahead. You were cutting out a bit for me. 13:08 I don't know for everyone else if they could hear you, but I only caught a couple of words. But sorry. Go ahead. 13:14 Yeah, I was saying it's a really, really good idea. And if you just think about it really hard, then maybe it will make more sense because it's great. 13:27 It's the perfect thing for each person involved. So I don't know how much more time I want to waste talking about it because it's honestly not that important. 13:50 So I also had on my list about, okay, the BSV people show up in here sometimes, which is great. It's very interesting. And two times ago, I think we had the conversation with the guy who wouldn't stop talking about the free riding the SPV. 14:09 And I was thinking, well, you know, what's a better way of maybe explaining it to that person, which is that the free riding is very important because you have to be aware of how your behavior affects other people. 14:21 So I have this example of maybe if you whistle, some people find it really annoying, but other people really like it. Some people really, really, really like it and maybe you can quit your job, whatever you normally do. 14:35 And you can get a job as a performer and make more money and have an easier, better life. That would be like, oh, you didn't realize that what you were doing was helping other people, but then you did and eCash in on it. 14:49 And then the same way is you might think, oh, people are annoyed by this whistling. You might think, well, hey, maybe over time, people stop inviting you to the Friday night poker game or whatever. 15:01 So that's why it's really important for people to keep in mind. So the SPV is this relationship where you are free riding off of someone else's full note and then it has to work harder and harder to process each transaction and store it forever and serve it back to everyone. 15:24 And so you just have to be aware of the fact that if they didn't do that, you would be done for. And so then, especially when people try to push the envelope and say, well, we're just going to put everything on chain. 15:40 So that's all the more reason. Okay, so Vlad, what do you think? Or if anyone has a question or a comment, can pop up. 15:56 I think it's awesome that Wayne is here because he can build Wayne Chain as a drivechain. 16:02 Yeah, Wayne Chain was in 2016, a satirical and or 100% real project that had time traveling transactions. And it had a guitar solo, I think. It had a lot going for it. 16:26 That's ancient history, though. 16:39 Wayne has come up or Vlad brought him up, maybe. 16:48 Can you hear me? 16:51 Yes, we can hear you. 16:52 Yes, I just popped in the room to see what y'all were talking about, but I think it's great that you're talking about Wayne Chain. It is still the world's fastest and most secure blockchain technology with time traveling transactions, unlimited storage, zero block time, unlimited block size. Everybody should go to WayneChain.com and check it out. 17:14 Actually, a quick funny story about that. I actually got not really criticism, but questioning from my investors at the time in 2016. Like, why did you do this? And they're like, we just don't get it. And I said, I did it because it was funny. 17:37 And I wanted to do something over the weekend to sort of point out that we were selling at the time something that was practical and usable, and everybody else was selling, you know, vaporware and visions of things that were pretty much useless. And over the years, they kind of came around, and they actually have a little, they had a Wayne Chain website homepage printout framed up on the wall at Blockchain Capital's offices at one point, which I thought was kind of neat. 18:04 That's too bad that they don't understand the satire, because that was kind of like, we were living through a time when people were competing on who can have the fastest block time and who can have the largest block sizes. And all that was being treated as though it had no cost. And that wasn't true. And that was exactly the whole point of the joke is that, okay, well, here's this thing with whatever, you know, zero block time. 18:28 Yeah, they got it after a little while. I mean, I actually, I did it simultaneously at the time that we announced our million dollar round of fundraising. And so they were like, why did you, you know, you're trying to sell to enterprise customers. Why did you announce this thing at the same time that you're announcing your fundraising? It kind of undermines your credibility. 18:49 And I said, I disagree. I think it enhances our credibility, because the people who would use our stuff understand why this is funny. And I, you know, I was a little nervous, a little bit like maybe these guys are right, but on balance by far, Wayne Chain had some, I can't tell you how many people contacted me. 19:11 Or if I was in meetings with folks over at IBM or other places where people were like, Wayne Chain is hilarious. Thank you for doing something like that. So memes work. Memes are a good sales tool. 19:23 And the, you know, it was very obviously like a satire from like the announcement, the music and everything. It was like, that's, it's disappointing, but it makes perfect sense that people are kind of like, 19:37 you know, maybe just thinking, oh yeah, what's the point of this? But I mean, come on, people. 19:41 Well, now you have, I mean, so back then, I mean, 2016, there was no AI or whatever. And I had, 19:47 you know, in that previous lifetime, I had run a digital agency for a long time. 19:50 And so I wrote that radio commercial and produced it. And I had one of the voice actors that I work 19:56 with previously do the voiceover for the commercial. So it was actually kind of a big 20:04 deal. Not a big deal. It was a difficult task at that time to do. But nowadays you can make, 20:10 you can make Drivechain commercials in 30 minutes with chat GPT, and it would probably be, 20:15 you know, a better quality than, you know, what I had produced back then. So you're in the era 20:22 of meme marketing. I can't wait to see what you guys put out. Yeah, it'll all just be, 20:31 um, you know, it'll all be Wayne chain derived. No, I'm just kidding. 20:37 We actually have good, we have, we have insane Daniel Crayworth's videos now. So that's like, 20:43 that's like, that's as crazy as it gets. Is he making new videos? 20:48 Yeah. Really? No, you gotta go to the eCash.com, uh, the YouTube page. There's two eCash videos. 20:55 Yeah. They're, they're wild. The first one's really, really good. He's got some, 20:58 he's shared some ideas with me too. And he, they're crazy. Like some of the later ones that 21:03 are coming up, but the first one's really good. Second one's pretty good too. Second one has me 21:07 as like Mario. What's interesting to me is that people who came into Bitcoin later, when I say 21:13 later, I mean like after 2015, um, they kind of forget how weird Bitcoin was or were never really 21:21 exposed to it because they weren't, they were kind of like on the outside looking in at, uh, 21:26 during that time period. And right now we're in this weird, you know, orange eye suit coin era 21:34 where, you know, in my, in my humble opinion, what happens with Bitcoin has more to do with 21:38 what happens in Washington DC than market forces at this particular point in time. 21:44 Um, just because we're at this crossroads with the clarity act and all that, but it'd be interesting 21:49 if, uh, uh, if during this bear market, if there's a washout, uh, some of these Bitcoin 21:56 treasury companies and some of the other stuff that's out there. And we kind of go back to that, 22:04 you know, there's like a weird sector, I guess at this point, it couldn't be the whole thing 22:09 because Bitcoin's so much bigger now, but a weird sector where guys like Daniel Kravitz and 22:14 others start coming out of the woodwork and just doing weird Bitcoin stuff. 22:21 It's a very, very good question of like, to what extent should it remain punk or should it, 22:28 or should it not, or what is going on? It's like, this is different than 2016. 22:32 Is it the opposite or is it just, is it actually the same? Like, well, I think in 2016, 22:39 you had a lot of stuff that was definitely never going to pan out like the, 22:44 like the blockchain without Bitcoin stuff that was kind of doomed. 22:48 Um, so that's not the same as the treasury companies, but I don't know. It's a very, 22:55 it is a very interesting time. I'm not sure what to make of it myself. 23:02 Um, guys, if anyone has a question or comment and feel free to hop up. 23:10 I just want to say that this week there's going to be the Bitcoin Film Fest in Warsaw, 23:15 and I may or may not be involved in putting up a poster that promotes the hard fork that's coming 23:23 in August for eCash. And it's hilarious. It's like a slasher film. If you're going to that 23:29 event or you know someone who's going, ask them to check it out. It's also next doors for Monero 23:35 Con. So the Monero guys are going to walk in for some movies maybe, and they're going to see that 23:40 on the way to the theater. And it's pretty cool. I think that there's some untapped meme potential 23:48 here. So Paul, I haven't really been keeping up. What's the latest thing going on with eCash? 24:01 Well, I think you just missed, I did like a recap, but the five million funding round is closed. 24:12 So that's pretty good. And we're doing this bug bounty to hammer all the bugs out before launch. 24:18 So we're doing a cool bug contest. I already mentioned both things, so I'd hate to 24:25 re-mention them. Thank you for recapping it for me. Thank you. 24:33 And yeah, I think the bug bounty thing is cool. People are sending in lots of good 24:39 bugs, and the idea is three months from now there shouldn't be any. And it prioritizes people who 24:46 find any severe bugs, so should be scanning for those. We got Raphael up here also. 24:53 Yeah. Just one last question about this. What does the launch look like? What happens 24:58 during the launch immediately after? I mean, I know you don't know, but what's a good guess 25:05 about what are the major things that are going to be happening around that? 25:10 Well, yeah, the launch should be the fork split off date, and it will be, 25:14 we'll just basically lower, we'll take the BTC blockchain and lower the difficulty to a very, 25:19 very low value. And so as a result, there'll be lots and lots of blocks found quickly afterward, 25:28 but the difficulty will also adjust up very quickly. And there might be some chaos as a result, 25:34 like there'll probably be lots of blocks being found. There might be giant reorgs. This is only 25:39 like on the first few days. And then one thing that may happen is the difficulty might adjust 25:46 too high, and we might reach a situation where blocks take a really long time. 25:54 We may have lined up some hash rate to rent if that happens, or the project may be a huge success, 26:02 and it'll just be really big, and so there won't be any problem with that. Or it'll be really small, 26:07 and it'll be easy to fix, or it'll be in some middle value where there might be 26:12 some shenanigans with that to just get it off the ground. But once it reaches equilibrium, 26:18 it will be its own blockchain, its own project. And we do plan on replaying the transactions from BTC 26:27 into eCash. So there will be lots of transactions in the network that are from both networks, 26:35 really. And then everyone will be able to buy and sell as they wish, and they'll be able to 26:41 use all the different L2s, which includes the seven that we are shipping, and also any other 26:48 ones that come up. I've heard that there may be some more built by other people. 26:55 Did you follow at all what Fred Kruger was doing with rPAL recently? 27:05 I don't know recently, no. 27:07 I don't really follow that much either, but people send me messages. He blocked me on Twitter, 27:13 so X or whatever. But people still send me messages now and then. I guess what he did 27:18 was create a proof-of-work coin that was a tribute to Hal Finney, supposedly. And 27:25 within a short period of time, there was tons and tons of bots that were mining this coin. 27:30 And I think rPAL stands for reusable proof-of-work, which I'm sure you're familiar with. 27:38 But I think that what people were doing, based on what I saw, at least the screenshots that 27:43 people were sending me, was like, I think they created derivative assets on Solana 27:51 of these units, and that's how they were trading for a while. Is that likely to happen with 28:00 eCash? No, it has already happened. In fact, people are coming up and asking about it already. 28:05 So people will make, even with or without you, they just make all these other 28:12 stuff that has a similar name and is loosely affiliated. So what he did actually make a 28:17 site, if you go to eCash.com slash sol-token, we explain that we'll treat the creator fees 28:27 as like a purchase. So as it trades, money just flows to the creator, which they can just 28:36 designate as anyone. And so we said, we'll just treat that as a purchase. And now that the $5 28:45 million round is closed, that's actually probably the cheapest way to even get... But that's the 28:51 trader fees, that's not buying the actual... It's kind of like convoluted, the whole thing. 28:55 But yeah, that is kind of a weird thing from a liquidity point of view. It's very interesting. 29:03 But yeah, that definitely will happen. It's already happened, basically. 29:09 Yeah, that's interesting. It's wildly different than things were years ago, where 29:14 if you had a coin, you either had to bag or work with a team at an exchange like 29:22 Cryptsy or something like that for them to be able to carry and sell the coin. Now, 29:28 there's all these basically automated vending machines that can pop up everywhere, 29:32 which is kind of, I don't know, liberating in a certain way. 29:39 Because you don't have to worry about a central operator orchestrating that kind of stuff. 29:46 Whereas before, your project was kind of beholden to whatever way the wind blew with those small 29:55 number of exchanges and other folks that were out there that would open up a market for something. 30:02 Yeah, not only that, all the exchanges used to go... Back in our day, Wayne and I's day, 30:06 the exchanges would just go straight up and go bankrupt or steal everyone's money or get 30:11 hacked all the time. It's funny that now all of these projects that all use pump.fun and stuff, 30:19 they all use automated market makers too, which was my idea from Truthcoin from 2012 to bring 30:25 that over to the blockchain world. And then where Vitalik found out about it and it escaped 30:32 containment from the Robin Hanson universe and it went into the Ethereum world. 30:38 So that's another wild thing. Okay, we got Raphael. He's also here. Hello. 30:41 Hey, what's up guys? Can you hear me? 30:45 I hear you. 30:46 Awesome. So I think everyone is already thinking about what kind of Drivechains they would like 30:51 to see on eCash. And I just want to put this out into the universe. I would like to see Oktra 30:59 as a Drivechain on eCash. Thank you. 31:04 Yeah, but what is that though? I don't know that much about that. 31:08 It, they have not launched their main net yet. They already had an auction on Uniswap 31:17 for their coin and it's a full homomorphic encryption, smart contract blockchain. 31:26 So it's private by default. 31:31 So it's kind of like a private Ethereum or something? 31:34 That's okay. Oh, that's kind of neat. It's pretty cool. 31:38 Yeah. And so I'm just putting it out there. So anyone interested in maybe collaborating with 31:47 the eCash people to get a hold of Paul Sztorc and LayerTwo Labs, that would be great. Thank you. 31:58 Yeah, we don't want to be in the business of gatekeeping 32:01 the L2s. So we want anyone who wants to build the L2 can. This will include, 32:08 some of them will do really, really well and others will probably not do well. 32:13 But that's a very important part of innovation. 32:17 So Oktra has its own, it's not SHA-256, but let's say that they wanted to merge mine 32:26 or SHA-256 with eCash. How could they? Could they? 32:32 You might remember, we had this project called EthSide in 2023, which was basically just, 32:38 it was basically Ethereum Gath, but just modified so that instead of having block rewards, 32:46 it did PIP 300 deposits and withdrawals. And instead of having the Ethereum proof of stake, 32:53 it just had buy merge mining. So now, I don't know if other people will be able to 33:01 emulate that. We had one guy do it in like one weekend. 33:06 So he didn't, he obviously didn't think it was that hard. And there are videos and stuff, 33:09 people could find this on YouTube. So of course, it's possible in principle, 33:13 and probably it's been done in practice to some extent. But will, you know, will anyone find, 33:20 obviously, if they built it from scratch, I think it wouldn't be that hard for them to change it 33:26 from proof of work or proof of stake to being buy merge mined with eCash. Remember, eCash is just 33:35 basically Bitcoin Core, the L1 is like exactly the same. So the L1 is the same as Bitcoin Core. 33:43 And then the deposits withdrawals, it's not the hardest thing, I don't think. So we'll have to 33:49 figure out, maybe we'll do something else, we'll do some kind of, I mean, my thinking is that 33:55 people always want to see the SDK or the whatever, you know, like the tutorial or something, 34:02 which is fine. And I kind of would rather focus on building with LayerTwo Labs, 34:09 I'd rather focus on like actually just building like seven good examples. And then you can kind 34:14 of look at one that's close to what you want to do, and then fork it and modify it. Then you 34:21 have an actual working project that you can fork. I don't know, that seems better to me. 34:26 Paul, is there still a 256 drivetrain constraint? 34:35 Well, okay, there was never really a true constraint, because if 51% wanted to add 34:43 another Drivechain, then they can just add like BIP300B, you have like BIP300A, BIP300B, 34:52 and then you could have another 25, 256, excuse me. And then you could also have 35:02 Drivechains of the Drivechains themselves. So in practice, there's really no limit. 35:07 But like in the protocol for BIP300, there's still the 256 limit. The true limit is the 35:15 attention, like everyone's attention, like can everyone take responsibility for all these? 35:23 In terms of the Drivechain, the 256 constraint, that's sort of the base level constraint, 35:29 I'll just make up my own term for it. How is that enforced? Like if the 257th person 35:36 wanted to create a Drivechain, what would they have to do? And what would stop them from doing 35:42 it if the 256 slots had already been filled up? That's one of the things, I guess, just to 35:47 interject, I guess, that I was going to also ask a question about, which is about the messaging. 35:53 It's a message type in the BIP300 spec that they talk about. So I don't know if you could expand 35:57 on that a little bit, Paul. Yeah, the L1, it doesn't know what is happening on the L2s. 36:06 So like Crazy Daniel Kravitz has a funny video coming out where he's got this joke about this, 36:12 which is funny about like, you don't know what happened in Vietnam, and it's like Rambo 36:18 getting tortured. And it's like, and you don't want to know. And it's kind of like, you got to 36:22 wait till you see the video. It's going to be funny. So basically, on L1, they don't see what 36:30 happens on the L2, but they do know, they have the L2s each have a number, because the deposits 36:36 that go into Drivechain number three are different from the deposits that go to drive 36:40 chain number eight or something. So L1 is aware of, it has like 256 slots, basically, and 256 36:48 accounts, kind of, one per sidechain. And so a lot of stuff will happen, like Blind Merged Mining 36:54 stuff, or the withdrawals, or the deposits. And it will refer to this number, and the number is 37:00 just a one byte integer. So after you hit 200, you have to hit whatever, you know, 11111, 37:08 you run out of space, and you will be referring to someone that already exists. 37:15 And so that's basically what happens. And the BIP300 text should explain this, and now it's a 37:21 little shorter. Every time it gets revised, every few years, it gets a little shorter and a little 37:27 clearer. So if you went to the official Bitcoin BIPs repository, and you could read it there, and 37:38 that's kind of the logic of it. Now, of course, you could add a second, you could just activate 37:41 BIP300 again, it would have like different, like, kind of prefix bytes, and it would basically just 37:50 say like, there's like now a parallel 256, there's now even more. I suppose my understanding, I guess 38:02 from reading it, I haven't read the revised version, I don't know when they updated it recently, but 38:07 was that there is like a message request that you have to specifically send. And I didn't know if, 38:12 like, how involved a miner has to be, really, if like, it's just a matter of changing their template 38:18 in order to accept, like, a message, or if it's just a transaction itself, that has a certain, 38:23 like, opcode that uses the message spend. But I thought it was just like an RPC message or 38:27 something like that. It's different for the Blind Merged Mining, which happens for every sidechain, 38:34 every block, or maybe even more frequently, or some other level of frequency. That would happen 38:39 all the time, is the Blind Merged Mining, and then the deposits and withdrawals. So these are 38:45 separated. BIP300 is the deposits and withdrawals, and Blind Merged Mining is BIP301. 38:53 And so to create a sidechain, this does require a little bit of, like, miner attention. 39:02 And that's important because we don't, like, the true limit is kind of like a human limit. 39:09 It's not, like, it is, to some extent, like, would you want to open, like, a store that has, 39:15 like, these 14 or 15 sub stores in it? And the ideal thing is that the L2s would be making so 39:23 much money for the miners, or they'd be expected to make so much money for the miners. It wouldn't 39:28 matter. Another part of the theory is that right now, you know, back when I first came up with 39:36 Drivechain, 39:38 the miners were being asked to weigh in on, like, SegWit2x and Hard4Bitcoin XT. 39:46 So actually, this was a way of lowering, minimizing back then. 39:52 It's different now, but back then, this would have lowered and minimized the amount of 39:56 attention that miners had to pay towards these types of things. 40:01 Now we've got miners who are totally absentee, negligent miners, and they don't do anything, 40:07 even in their own financial best interest, even in Bitcoin's best interest. 40:11 So, yeah, I think it seems like the spec is, like, largely, like, 40:16 looking at the enforcer code, seeing exactly, like, how it is added to the, you know, 40:23 invalidate block script or something like that, on whether or not maybe there is, like, 40:28 an index that was added that miners are going to enforce, not 40:36 ticking up or down or something like that. 40:38 Well, I didn't totally understand your question. So are you asking about, 40:42 do you know, are you asking about deposit withdrawals or Blind Merged Mining or? 40:46 No, I was just asking about the, like, kind of, like, just the technical detail, I suppose, 40:50 about, like, how difficult it is to just, like, modify the block template or an RPC request in 40:57 order to, like, ACK, or not ACK a bundle, but in order to just add a new sidechain, like, 41:04 to that 256. Like, I know it, I guess, like. 41:08 Yeah, I think, okay, so, like, for the Blind Merged Mining, not really at all, 41:13 because it's very blind on purpose. But for deposit and withdrawal, yeah, 41:18 to create the new sidechain, they do kind of have to put, they have to make, like, 41:21 a Coinbase transaction. So, of course, the miners edit their Coinbase transaction all 41:27 the time to put, like, you know, the graffiti in there, like, which mining pool mined the block 41:33 and stuff, which is interesting. And then they have, like, for SegWit, you know, it became 41:38 mandatory to have the witness discount block, to have this Coinbase output. So 41:46 they certainly know how to do it. And we have a block maker software that works with CUSF, 41:53 Core OnTouch Soft Fork, so that might interest you, the block maker software. And I don't know 42:00 exactly the easiest way to find the official latest version, but I think if you go to 42:06 either the LayerTwoLabs.com, like, I mean, excuse me, the GitHub slash layer2labs repository section, 42:14 or BIP300QSYF.com, B-I-P-300-C-U-S-F.com, it does link, there's, like, because that is a part of 42:25 having the Core OnTouch Soft Fork, is, like, okay, you have Bitcoin Core, then you have the 42:32 Soft Fork Activator. But when they make the template, when they make a new block, 42:37 every miner is going to want to make absolutely sure that they make a block that 42:43 isn't invalid and that collects as many fees, as much fees as possible. 42:48 So that is important that the block constructor sort of be in there. 42:55 Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, thanks. And then, I guess, if you, does that work in any way, 43:01 in particular, with, like, the SimplePool software that you're building, like, 43:04 or they're just kind of unrelated? 43:07 Ideally, they'd all be modular, and they'd all be really, really good, and et cetera, et cetera. 43:11 SimplePool, I'm really worried that people are, some people are very interested and excited about 43:17 it, but I think other people think, like, it's trying to replace Foundry or something. 43:23 This is supposed to be, it was supposed to be something, like, Foundry would operate 43:29 ideally, maybe not Foundry specifically, because Foundry has those extra stuff where they have, 43:33 like, I think they KYC everyone at Foundry, and I think they produce, like, reports, 43:39 like, audit reports. This is why everyone wants to go public, I think, is over there. 43:42 But ideally, Foundry, everyone would run this, and then they'd run, like, some other stuff on 43:48 top of it. The point of this is that I think it's a very bad situation to be in where we don't know 43:54 what, we don't necessarily know what software all the mining pools are running, and it's harder 44:01 for us to start up a new pool without, like, developing one, so I just thought it should be 44:08 a really, really good project to have an open source mining pool, and so among all of the 44:13 different projects that we do, that's just one of them, and I still think it'd be, like, 44:18 it should be one of the top, you know, it should get more attention than, like, the Lightning 44:23 Network. It's never going to happen, but still, like, this is an important thing where, 44:34 you know, okay, so, yeah, SimplePool should do a lot of stuff, like, the pool hopper, 44:39 and there's going to be, like, payouts on the L2, so you have 8 billion miners, because you can't 44:43 have 8 billion miners unless you actually have 8 billion people get paid out, so SimplePool is 44:47 pretty ambitious, even though it's very simple also, and it should be, ideally, SimplePool would 44:56 expand, and it would include, like, all types of, like, firmware stuff, and it would include 45:00 all the different, like, how to signal for soft forks, how to signal for, you know, how to 45:11 show your opinion, and how to enforce the CUSF soft forks, Core Untouched Soft Fork, 45:16 so ideally, it would all be wrapped up into there at some point, and ideally, it'll be modular, so, 45:23 yeah. But it's easy to, like, run this stuff on the Signet that you have set up, correct, or, like, 45:28 that's how it was tested, or? Well, of course, the pool doesn't make that much sense on Signet, 45:34 because there's no mining, but it's still possible to test, still good tests, 45:41 and so, yeah, and I think, you know, these days, it's never been easier to, 45:48 for people to write software, and especially something like this, where mining, pooled 45:54 mining has been done, you know, for whatever, 10, 15 years, so it should be possible to create 46:00 something that is very competitive, because as I tried to look around, you know, I looked around 46:08 for months and months, maybe I just didn't find it, I don't know, but you can't really find, like, good 46:14 open source mining pool software that I could find, and you can't really find, even stuff like 46:20 Stratum v2, I thought it was actually not in very good shape, and it's been going on and on for 46:25 something like seven years, and I thought it's, like, bad ideas, bad design, not even executed, not 46:33 even finished, so I thought we could do better, you know, I guess, like, it should be 46:42 possible, I suppose, then, to just use that Blocka core-to-software creator, and, like, mine yourself 46:48 during the fork to add your own sidechain, if you wanted to. 46:54 Yeah, if you, well, you know, it doesn't, I think they're separate issues, like, of course, you 46:58 could solo mine or mine with the pool, I can imagine a situation where either of those two 47:03 people don't know how to actually add, okay, what we had was a long time ago, and I think we still 47:10 have this, because maybe, like, a long time ago, when we had, like, old rudimentary version of 47:16 Drivechain that we're just kind of fooling around with, but still, this would have been, like, 2020 47:20 or something, we had this Bitcoin QT, it was a fork of Bitcoin 1699, and in that, the QT client, you 47:27 could, like, add, propose a sidechain, there were, like, little buttons you could click, and you could 47:33 act, if you mind, if you solo mine with the CPU. Now, of course, that's not practical, but the point is, 47:42 I think Bitwindow, I think Bitwindow, like, copied all that stuff over from that of the QT client. 47:51 I'm not sure, I gotta double check, but I think you could still press buttons, so, you know what I mean, 47:55 it's at the GUI level, where you can, like, type it out and click, and then they'll show up, 48:00 the proposed sidechains, then you can, like, click a button. So, yeah, ideally, Bitwindow would then be 48:06 talking to, like, the pool hopper, and it's funny, all this stuff is actually related, because 48:13 a lot of the OP_RETURN drama, which is all nonsensical, but a lot of that is related to, 48:18 like, the fact that we relay transactions, like, in a kind of communist, hippie way, where the 48:25 transaction relay is done, like, for free among the nodes, and if instead you just directly connect 48:34 it to the pool and submitted your transaction, none of this idea of the whole, the difference 48:38 between a transaction standardness to transaction validity and transaction standardness, that 48:44 distinction would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and this whole idea could never 48:48 have come up. So, the whole debate over OpReturn for the last year, or year and a half, or whatever, 48:55 that whole debate was kind of partially kicked off by 49:01 Slipstream, maybe, or, like, Marathon's idea of just, you can just paste the transaction here, 49:06 and we'll just, you can go right directly to the miner, like, miner direct. 49:12 This idea, of course, that idea is super old, like, whatever, Bitmain and whatever, and 49:17 AntPool and stuff used to do that. They used to be, during the block size war, the blocks were full, 49:21 and there was no RBF replaced by fee, so you could go to, I don't remember exactly who it was, 49:28 I think it was maybe, like, AntPool, and you could go, and you could paste your transaction ID 49:34 that was stuck, and you could pay with a credit card, okay, you actually pay with the, you know, 49:40 you pay with the U.S. credit card, and it would, like, move it up the line, 49:45 and that was, like, replaced by fee with a credit card, because people, people like Rod 49:50 Javier's $10,000 transaction is stuck, and then if you try to rebroadcast with everyone, it would 49:55 say it's invalid, and, because it's a double spend, so all kinds of wacky stuff would happen. 49:59 I don't know if this makes any sense at all. No, it does, yeah, like, and all the effort that 50:03 has been put into the mempool when it's, like, not really even used for mining at all, and it's 50:08 kind of, if there's not, like, full blocks and things like this, it's not really that helpful 50:12 to even really, like, work on that software, like, cluster mempool, they put so many hours and years 50:19 into that on core, and, you know, now it's just sort of, like, circumvented by all the 50:27 knots nodes that kind of, like, destroy the heuristics I think they were using in order to 50:33 have, like, shared mempool state, and then also, like, you know, it's too slow for miners to 50:38 actually use to construct blocks, so then they just have their own, like, mega pool 50:44 that they support separately, but, like, I mean, I guess, like, testing the mempool stuff is way 50:49 harder, you know, in order to do that, you know, before the network is alive either. I spun up, 50:55 like, a little private signet in order to test, like, block, you know, sidechain stuff, and that's, 51:03 I guess, why I'm asking. I was just, I think I could do it then on my own where I just propose 51:08 a sidechain, maybe edit stuff to the bit window to do that. Yeah, and so that's really cool. 51:18 I think it made me, it reminded me, okay, because you asked previously about, like, will it all be, 51:26 to what extent is it all related, and I do think bit window would have in it, like, it should be 51:32 possible for the software to know a lot about which mining pools exist and, like, what their IP 51:42 address is and, like, what their name is and stuff, so it should be possible without, like, human 51:46 intervention just from, like, looking at the blockchain in the network for the whole network 51:53 to know where the mining pools are and for bit window to know, like, how to connect to them so 51:58 that bit window itself has, like, a thing where it will just submit your transaction to the different 52:04 mining pools, and I think, you know, I just wanted to repeat what I said before about, like, this is 52:11 kind of a weird flaw in bitcoin or kind of a quirk of bitcoin, and it doesn't really, it's kind of a 52:19 quirk because on one hand it doesn't work, and then, but on the other hand, it doesn't matter, 52:23 so the fact that it doesn't work, it doesn't make any difference, but sort of slipstream was saying 52:27 just give us your transaction and we'll bypass everyone's mempool, and then the nots people were 52:32 saying, well, this is not allowed in my mempool, and then you had, like, you know, the anti-nots 52:37 people say, they would say correctly that, well, hey, you can just run it in with, you can just run 52:43 it with no mempool, but you, I think you, and you can tell, you seem like you kind of know what 52:49 you're talking about, you can see, like, all these people are kind of, like, talking past each other 52:54 and because, like, the nots people, they don't, they don't really want to run a node that has no 53:00 mempool, but the question is, like, what do they think this is achieving, and I don't know, the 53:05 answer is me, I don't have no idea, but yeah, I know, I think it, it really is just, like, almost, like, just 53:11 trying to get rid of the usage of layer one, except for, like, automated, like, open channel type stuff, 53:17 that's, like, at least what the core route seemed to have been going for largely with, even since RBF, 53:23 I suppose, like, that was the dream, and then, and then I think the nots people kind of don't really 53:30 even care for lightning that much and just kind of want more, which is kind of strange, because 53:35 they want, I think, more utilization of the main chain, but they don't want inscriptions and things 53:39 like that, so they're, I don't know, that's what I see as being the, exactly, it makes, it's really a circle, 53:46 it doesn't make any sense, we have someone up, a new person, palter blank, welcome, but it doesn't 53:52 make any sense, because today, bitcoin maximalism basically means using bitcoin as little as 53:59 possible, it's, like, it's really bizarre, it's, like, flipped around, I don't know exactly what's going on 54:07 myself, but the nots people, you know, they're, they're sort of, like, they really think, like, it's 54:12 important how many nodes there are and how many mempools there are, but really, this whole thing 54:16 is just a confusion, and if, instead, the network was set up to be pool aware, you could just, you would 54:24 just send, you would just submit the transaction to a pool, it would be clear to you why you would 54:28 want to do that, or, and it would be clear to the pool why they would want to accept it, because 54:36 they get the fee, and it would also be clear, I think, spy mining hadn't been invented or it wasn't 54:41 appreciated until, like, 2015, 2016, so it was a few years in bitcoin, so people thought, well, if we just 54:46 submit it to a pool, the pool will just keep it for, keep the, all the transactions for themselves, 54:52 and then the bigger pools will get bigger, and none of that happens, because the pools connect to each 54:57 other, those of you in the audience who are interested, the pool just, each pool sends out, like, a little 55:03 tiny mercenary spy to all, they connect as if they're mining, so they all, all the pools know what 55:09 each other pool is doing, thanks to spy mining, because the pool has to tell them exactly what 55:14 block to find, so it's kind of works itself out, and I think they mostly just don't want to be 55:21 mining on an invalid block, like a stale block, yeah, and there's, there's some privacy concerns about, 55:31 oh, hey, if you have to submit directly to the pool, then the pool knows, like, when they submit your, 55:35 when you submit your IP, like, when you, when you connect to them, it's like, oh, but, you know, people 55:41 can beat that now, now that, you know, with VPNs and stuff, so, I just, so, again, I don't think it's that 55:47 big of a deal, the bigger deal is, apparently, that so many people are so confused about what the mempool 55:52 does, and many people care, I guess, just more of, like, an empirical question, like, what type of 55:58 software do you think is, like, the most costly to write in this process, you mean, out of everything 56:05 that I've been doing, yeah, yeah, everything I've ever touched, are we talking about, like, just 56:11 hardest, like, in terms of, like, the human cost, or, like, the creativity, or the, or just the actual, like, 56:18 raw engineering, like, working, ironing out all the, well, I suppose, yeah, I guess I'm not factoring in 56:24 the ideas that you've already, like, come up with, but, like, yeah, the implementation of a lot of these, 56:31 you know, like, distributed systems and stuff, I feel bad if we get, well, I'll answer your question, 56:36 but let's see, we got, what's her name, what is it, Poulter, someone here, Mr. Poulter Blank, and we 56:42 should maybe let them talk, but if, until they talk and interrupt us, I'll answer your question, which 56:50 is, okay, I made one huge, I made, like, one huge blunder, I think, if you actually are interested, 56:54 which is, we had this 01699 Bitcoin Core, and it worked with Drivechains, 57:00 for, you know, like, for a long time, like, years ago, of course, it's very rudimentary, and, you know, 57:06 we were just hacking around and messing around with it, and we had lots of stuff, like, I had a 57:09 comma, and to separate the eight decimal points, we had all kinds of, like, funny stuff, so this was, 57:13 like, the wacky Paul Sztorc software, and it was kind of, like, nuts, and it was just, like, we 57:21 threw in all kinds of stuff, we had a block explorer, like, in the Bitcoin QT client, but because of the 57:26 way QT works, and the way Qt core works, so, you know, there was, like, there's no way we were 57:35 ever going to get a pull request into Bitcoin Core for all this stuff that we added, we were just, like, 57:39 having fun, and it's kind of a little bit, like, live Bitcoin, we're just, like, doing our own thing, 57:45 just, like, a, you know, like, a flying saucer, just hovering around, but the point is, then I decided, 57:51 okay, well, listen, instead of doing the pull request to Bitcoin Core from BIPs 300301, we could just 57:55 write this enforcer, but the big mistake was, I didn't, all I forgot was, I really already had an 58:01 enforcer, the Bitcoin QT project, that was the fork of Bitcoin 1699, that already would have 58:10 worked, it could have just scanned all the blocks, like, in parallel, and then given a thumbs up, thumbs 58:15 down, and then you could have Bitcoin Core call, invalidate block, so basically, I did a ton of work 58:21 to create what is the current Rust-based BIPs 300301 enforcer, and kind of in retrospect, I think 58:30 it's possible that it could have done all that work, all that work was for no reason possible, not 58:35 necessarily, but, so that was a kind of wacky story, I'm not sure if that really answers your question. 58:40 No, yeah, that does, for sure, yeah, that, it seems like, yeah, that invalidate block, the thing that actually 58:45 activates, like, the drivetrain through core and touch soft fork is, like, probably, like, the most 58:51 high assurance, so, like, took a lot more work. That one can't be, if that one has any bugs, it's very bad, 58:57 because, yeah, because the pitch for the core and touch soft fork is, you don't have to modify Bitcoin Core, 59:03 but you can run this thing next to Bitcoin Core, but then if the thing you run next to Bitcoin Core 59:09 is, like, crashing, or, like, really misbehaving, then they'll just think, oh, why did I do this? 59:16 This was a bad, this was a mistake, so then they shut it off, and then BIPs 300301 deactivates, 59:22 and then it's, like, a, you know, that's not good, because then anyone can take all the money out of 59:26 the L2s, so that would not be good, although it's, you know, it's no different than any other 59:33 soft fork in that way, but, yeah, of course, the idea of Q-sieve is that it's so difficult 59:39 to get anything done in Bitcoin Core that we, that's basically the only option. 59:47 And it seems like a lot of the design decisions, yeah, flow down from the core and touch, like, 59:54 the invalidate block call, and then, like, how you activate everything, like, that's what I found 59:58 to be the best way of understanding, I suppose, the software. Yeah, and BitWindow, that's way more 1:00:06 of a move fast and break things situation, so BitWindow has tons of, like, bells and whistles, 1:00:11 it has all kinds of crazy stuff on it, and, of course, BitWindow, you know, ideally, it would 1:00:16 look nice on all three operating systems, and it would have, like, different screen resolutions and 1:00:21 stuff, so that one is kind of, like, more of, like, an infinite project where that would, like, never 1:00:26 be completed, you know, like, you would just keep iterating on it, like, forever, so there's a 1:00:31 different sense in which that one would consume the most total hours, but it's a completely different 1:00:36 type of project, and it is, if there's problems with BitWindow, it almost doesn't matter, because 1:00:42 you could still, people could still fall back on using, like, their phone wallet or any kind of, 1:00:48 like, you know, they could even use the, something rudimentary, or they could use the RPC 1:00:55 to, like, save all of their spend and receive coins on L1, so BitWindow is, like, totally 1:01:03 superfluous. It's, like, just a cosmetic thing, but that one would consume a lot of time. Then there's 1:01:09 all the different L2s, so, like, Thunder is just L2 with large block sizes, but we ran the 1:01:14 hackathon last year to see who could optimize the performance, and so that was a lot of, a lot of 1:01:21 smart people optimized the software, made it super fast. That's very, very different from 1:01:30 something, you know, when I did Truthcoin DC, which is, like, my prediction market thing, 1:01:34 which is, like, this really bizarre, really creative thing that was, like, super ahead of 1:01:39 its time. It was, like, prediction markets on Bitcoin back in the year 2013, so that was, like, 1:01:46 this wild idea back then. Now it's been, what, 13 years, so people have slowly caught up to me, 1:01:54 but, yeah, we got another new person. I don't know if we've done a poll to blank. It doesn't seem 1:02:00 in the talkative mood, but we also have Dev3 something, whatever, so, hello. 1:02:10 Yeah, hi, Paul. Thank you for having me up. I've recently been labeled as one of your haters. 1:02:16 Kind of astounded that you don't read Leet. It's Dave Toshi. Thank you for having me up here. 1:02:23 I think I've maybe erroneously been added to this list of haters. 1:02:27 I think the discussion was regarding the way that you've chosen to distribute. 1:02:31 I guess, like, a fair question would be, do you view a great bootstrapping for a new chain 1:02:38 that's supposed to be the future of scaling through Drivechains and the tech that you've 1:02:42 put together to be distributed to a lot of people, a large proportion of people who are diametrically 1:02:48 opposed to the idea as sell pressure, like on day zero and at zero cost? 1:02:54 Well, it's a good question. The whole idea of the Satoshi half airdrop is to kind of split 1:03:00 the difference to some extent, so that it's like, on one hand, it rewards BTC holders. 1:03:07 On the other hand, anyone who is like a big supporter, an early supporter, 1:03:13 they get disproportionately more. So it's supposed to kind of split the difference there. 1:03:17 So I guess my question for you would be, what would it be instead? Like, 1:03:21 you could either do a pure altcoin. Yeah. What's your preferred thing? 1:03:28 Well, I mean, I'm sure that I don't have to talk to you about the merits of a fair launch. 1:03:35 I think that's something that's fair. 1:03:36 Yeah, but what's the fair launch, though? 1:03:39 It's like zero allocated apart from perhaps like you've taken some strategic capital, 1:03:46 which I think is a great idea, by the way. So which is why I'm a little bewildered as to why 1:03:51 I landed on the hater list. I think that was a great idea with Satoshi's piece of the pie. 1:03:58 That strategic capital is probably going to help in the long run. But for the rest of it, 1:04:01 why not start from zero, from Genesis? Why would you want to have a duplicate of every single 1:04:09 asset in ordinals and Bitcoin holdings? Would you want the rich list as you see it today, 1:04:16 MicroStrategy, BlackRock, a couple of large funds to hold the lion's share of your token? 1:04:23 What would make you think that they're aligned with your vision? 1:04:26 Well, not all of them are. First of all, you could think about it this way. Okay, maybe Michael 1:04:34 Saylor owns, I don't know, 5% or whatever it is throughout his various... So that means that he 1:04:41 would get an F, right? And 95% are not Michael Saylor. So that's an A plus, or an A at least. 1:04:48 So actually, most of them are not. I think there's a few people who are allowed 1:04:52 and a lot of people who are quiet. And the quiet people are in many ways smarter. If you own 1:05:00 Bitcoin, why tell anyone about it? So I think it is certainly the case that the community 1:05:08 adds a lot of value to a project. You can look at, for example, when Bitcoin Cash did its hard fork, 1:05:15 I thought that the Bitcoin Cash hard fork would have a lot of value. But I think it's 1:05:21 a long list of problems, like bad ideas, bad implementation. But still, on the day that it 1:05:29 actually debuted, which is something like November or something, this is where... 1:05:35 I know it's confusing for anyone who's going to go back and research the timeline. They're 1:05:38 going to see, well, it was created on August 1st. But trust me, if you lived through it, 1:05:42 no one was talking about it at all. Everyone was talking about SegWit2x 1:05:45 until November 7th or something. So the real first day that Bitcoin Cash debuted, 1:05:52 and when someone like some of the big, large blockers who abandoned SegWit2x said, 1:05:56 this is the next big thing. This was back in 2017. But Bitcoin Cash went up and it became the number 1:06:03 two coin for a day. It flipped Ethereum for one day. And then, of course, it didn't 1:06:08 maintain that performance. But I think that speaks to the fact that... 1:06:16 Okay, so here's another fun fact for you. I don't know. I used to do this trick and add it up, 1:06:21 but I haven't looked recently. But I'm pretty sure if you cut the Bitcoin market cap in four, 1:06:29 you cut it 25%. You cut it to 25%. I think it's still bigger than Ethereum. 1:06:38 So most of the world is Bitcoin. And a lot of this other stuff is not very good. 1:06:46 And there is a sense in which Bitcoin is more than just a project that a few people own. 1:06:54 It is a public movement to achieve something. And I think that it's worth respecting that. 1:07:06 And also, you've contradicted yourself a little bit because you're saying if you raise money for 1:07:11 the war chest, then how can you... You have to do a pre-mine then. So you said a fair 1:07:17 launch with zero allocation. But then how do you do the money? 1:07:22 Oh, no. I hadn't contradicted myself. I've baked in an excuse for you. To the contrary, 1:07:30 you've already done that raise, haven't you? So it's like we can't retroactively unraise the money, 1:07:36 unless I misunderstood. 1:07:40 Well, you can undo things. You can undo anything you do. It's not true that anything you can undo. 1:07:47 But I'm saying that a zero from scratch would be better, is my opinion on that. 1:08:00 Well, I think I just have to disagree because I think then how can you reward the people who 1:08:07 try to make sure that it's a high quality project when it's actually created and released? 1:08:13 By having them contribute to the network the same way they did with Bitcoin. 1:08:18 And every other fair launch proof of work coin. 1:08:21 I don't know. Think about it like this. Satoshi had to work for free for a long time. 1:08:31 Then he launched BTC for free. And then he mined it like he was the only miner for a little while. 1:08:40 So he had to pay for the electricity and all that stuff. He got nothing for any of that work. 1:08:46 Now, I think that's actually a mistake. I'm not actually comfortable with a world where 1:08:51 a genius inventor also has to be independently wealthy and altruistic in order to bring his idea 1:08:58 out into the world. I think that's a big mistake. Of course, he must have known a lot of things 1:09:05 at the time where he thought like, OK, did he, though, you know, did he have to be independently 1:09:10 wealthy? I mean, maybe to afford working, like to be able to put in the time possibly, 1:09:17 but to mine the network, to switch on a single CPU and run a node? I don't think he needed to 1:09:22 be independently wealthy for that. Did he? No, I'm talking about the time, the engineering 1:09:27 time and the risk and all that. Yeah. I mean, it's like a multi-year project. Probably. 1:09:34 That I can't disagree. So someone like, yeah, someone who's that smart, you know, 1:09:39 could have worked and poured their time into some other thing, you know, whatever, 1:09:46 whatever thing was popular at the time. So, yeah, that's like multi-hundred thousand dollar 1:09:52 outlay up front, you know, when there's no. So I just think that's that. I think that's barbaric, 1:10:00 actually. And I think there are capitalist world is it's better if you have someone down the street 1:10:05 who thinks they have a better strategy for mowing lawns, but they need a three thousand 1:10:10 dollar lawnmower. And you have an old retiree who has a bunch of cash under the mattress that 1:10:15 they're not using for anything and that the two of them should be able to cooperate to make the 1:10:21 innovation happen faster. Why would we want to wait for the kid to work as a waiter for 1:10:27 10 years to save up for this lawnmower? That seems like it could if you if you put it into 1:10:33 that frame. But if you take it out of that frame and put it back into the reality of like launching 1:10:38 a proof of work chain today, I don't think you'd be in that scenario at all. I think there's plenty 1:10:43 of people that are that have hardware and that are ready to spin up and mine. So I don't think 1:10:48 you would have that distribution problem where you would be the sole miner who needs to be 1:10:54 independently wealthy on eCash. I think maybe it's not about the money. I think maybe what 1:11:00 you're missing is just that like like all the Bitcoiners who currently exist who are developers 1:11:04 who you would want on your project are already invested in Bitcoin. So if you just make something 1:11:10 else, they could sell some of their Bitcoin in order to buy it. But many people won't like do 1:11:16 that because of like switching costs or something like that. So you're saying they don't those would 1:11:20 be people that don't believe in the project? Well, maybe they do, but for whatever reason, 1:11:25 they don't come to that realization soon enough. And the guy who did realize it a little bit 1:11:30 quicker than them got to it first. And you don't really want that first mover type of person in 1:11:37 order to develop a project. I don't know if I would optimize for that. And I would also take 1:11:42 a look at some of the evidence recently. Have you have you looked at what people are doing with 1:11:47 airdrops recently in the crypto world? There's been a lot of very large airdrops this year. 1:11:53 You can just take a look at how those networks. But I haven't. I don't think that any are 1:11:57 comparable except for the Bitcoin Cash one, which I think is actually much worse than this one in 1:12:03 a few ways, although better in one or two other ways. But I don't think like I mean, maybe you 1:12:09 can give me an example. But I mean, for one reason is I haven't heard of it. I mean, that's I think 1:12:14 partly why it's a bad idea. It's partly a clue to me. But yeah, why don't you give me an example? 1:12:18 Oh, yeah, sure. They're plentiful. Like you could take a look at literally any launch 1:12:25 that's happened in the past three years. They've been pretty much down only. 1:12:31 Anything that's been I know, but can you just give me you can just give us an example, 1:12:35 because my assertion is that we're not even talking about the same category. 1:12:38 Sure. Would something like Monad work for you or mega ETH with those work is like blockchain 1:12:43 blockchain? Yeah, I've heard of all of those. I don't actually know that much about them. So 1:12:48 why don't you tell me like, how did they do the airdrop? 1:12:51 There was a through various different ways through campaigns through I don't know, 1:12:58 through owning certain like who gets through owning who gets the coin basically and 1:13:03 owning certain assets and I don't know just I mean, why is it like a really hard question or 1:13:08 something? I was I was thinking this would be an easy question like you for what I was expecting 1:13:12 to say was it's actually on Monad last year, Monad gave every Bitcoin holder one coin each. 1:13:19 And then there's 21 million Monad, etc. And then it and then you're gonna tell me about a disaster. 1:13:26 That's like what I thought you were gonna say. I didn't expect you to say like various 1:13:29 you were expecting. This is like that. You were expecting this to be just really simple. 1:13:37 Yeah, that's unfortunately not how things work now. 1:13:43 I know, but I don't think you know how I mean, you know, you may know how things work like over 1:13:47 and I was that's what I was talking about with ETH is is very small compared to BTC. 1:13:52 Yeah, this was really weird at the start. 1:13:56 And still maybe by maybe by market cap in this whole like Bitcoin is the world 1:14:01 thesis that you gave us before about cutting it into four pieces and it's still bigger than ETH. 1:14:06 Yeah, that's when you're looking at market caps. What if you look at on chain activity? 1:14:10 If you were to glance over the mempool right now, how much on chain activity do you see like 1:14:15 the project that you're focusing on is to bring people on chain last time I checked. 1:14:19 So the lion's share of that activity. 1:14:21 Yeah, no, you're preaching to the choir. I was the one for years and years I would go on. 1:14:25 You can find plenty of tweets of mine. If you scroll back, you'll see there's tweets where I 1:14:29 have screenshots about how Ethereum has passed Bitcoin and transaction fees from like 2021 2020. 1:14:37 I've been telling people to go to cryptofees.info. If you go people look up the recording for last 1:14:43 week, they see and bring that up. So if we all the time. So I agree with you about that. 1:14:47 Right. So if we were to divide by four, we would probably take something like 1:14:51 transaction volume, maybe notional principle that's been transferred. 1:14:55 Yeah. And I think if you divide Ethereum, if you divide Ethereum by four, 1:14:59 I think it's still bigger than BTC transaction volume. 1:15:03 So you're right. It's the opposite. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about 1:15:07 that you're saying airdrops are a bad idea. And then I said, can you give me an example of one? 1:15:11 And you said there's various examples. I could just give me an example of one that you think 1:15:15 is comparable. 1:15:15 Confidently that you could take a look at any airdrop that has happened over the past two 1:15:20 years and look at the token price. It's not even questionable. It's overwhelming. 1:15:28 I know, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for one example. 1:15:32 Monad. 1:15:35 Okay, but how does Monad explain to me how the airdrop worked? 1:15:40 It's not a transparent metric. They didn't drop to only Bitcoiners, if that's what you mean. 1:15:46 I know, but that's what this is, though. So I think that's a big difference, 1:15:51 especially if it's so convoluted that it can't be explained in a few sentences to someone 1:15:56 when it's their shining city on a hill example of something gone wrong. 1:16:01 I just don't understand why I'm not getting the explanation. 1:16:05 You're not getting the explanation because Monad has not produced 1:16:09 a very clear airdrop guideline, nor have any of the networks really 1:16:15 that have done an airdrop that I followed. 1:16:18 But isn't this then much more straightforward? If you own Bitcoin, you get eCash. It's exactly 1:16:24 the same, 21 million eCash with one exception. 1:16:29 Yes, this one would be much more straightforward. I think the result would be the same. 1:16:37 I think also, I don't know a lot about those other projects, Monad or MegaEth. I've heard 1:16:44 both of them, but that's basically it. But yeah, this project, I believe that there will be one 1:16:52 big cryptocurrency that survives, and it is used by 8 billion people at some point. 1:17:00 And then the rest will be just collectors items, and they will not be worth very much. 1:17:08 So yeah, I think it's 200 trillion to the victor, and everything else, zero, basically. 1:17:15 So I'm not sure. Maybe it is, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. But was Monad going out there saying, 1:17:23 you know, this is our plan to get to 8 billion users? 1:17:27 Yes, I think that's the plan and intent of every single network launch, including eCash. And if the 1:17:32 one that you had in mind is Bitcoin, and the one that you envision going to zero is eCash, 1:17:37 then airdropping, I think, is a great bootstrapping tech. 1:17:44 Yeah, I mean, I just think that the community is really worth it. The community is 1:17:49 the community is what makes it happen. And yeah, I think there have been a few loud people have 1:17:57 kind of ruined everything. These are people who joined in after like 2020. And they make a lot of 1:18:02 noise. And they own point 000003 Bitcoin. And, you know, then now they're weighing in, they joined 1:18:11 in like 2021. And they're weighing in on like, CTV or something that was shipped, shipped project, 1:18:19 like years before they even entered into the community, or they're weighing in an opportunity 1:18:23 turn. And are those are some of the new people are not we want those people to sell and get out, 1:18:32 they will they will destroy the BTC project. And if they don't sell, they'll just destroy any 1:18:40 project that they they talk into? What if those are the exact same people that make up the volume 1:18:46 that you see on Ethereum that you want on eCash? I think I don't think that's true, because actually 1:18:57 the ordinals people are kind of the big transaction fee payers on BTC. And so even though I'm not like 1:19:04 a big ordinals person, that was a clue of that actually the the people who are the users are 1:19:16 breathing life into the project and other people are the people complaining about ordinals are 1:19:22 like deranged cultists who are ignorant, mostly, and they're going to hold the project back and 1:19:30 stop it from growing to satisfy their own weird like virtue signaling. We can use that as an 1:19:34 example, actually, like, if you want it, it's it's funny that you bring that up. Here's a great 1:19:39 example for airdrops. Why don't you take a look at the airdrops that were done to these ordinal 1:19:45 enjoyers that you're speaking of, like, for example, dog go to the moon, and maybe just 1:19:49 pull up the chart or take a look at our sick miners or any of the other stuff that you know, 1:19:54 those people received and what they did with those assets. 1:19:58 Spoiler. I mean, I would be like, they're, they're all at zero. 1:20:05 Yeah, but do you really think this is the same as I've already forgotten? What was it dogs? I already forgot what the name is. That's, I think we've all already forgotten. 1:20:19 Um, I think, like, this project is in kind of a different category than that. No offense, but you go to the LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends, you can see all the people who endorse BIP300. Not necessarily eCash, but BIP300. And you know, there's plenty of people up there, like a fiat job, creator of Nostra. He's like, basically, you know, it's a matter of life and death for Bitcoin, whether or not we get Drivechains on it. 1:20:50 And, you know, Adam back saying that it was arguably Drivechain would have been more useful than then or more better or more useful than taproot. Um, so I don't think this is really the same as like, well, that's, that's my point is a lot of the airdrops they are, those are those are worth frivolities. 1:21:12 And I think that has distracted people from the fact that the airdrop is actually a good idea. We should have more people doing Bitcoin hard forks, I think everyone gets free coins, people can sell or buy as they wish. And I think people should have privatized the coins too, because that encourages them to put a lot of effort in upfront to make sure coin is like a finished product when it launches. 1:21:37 And you don't need like, maintainers, or these weird people that you have to trust, maintaining. So I think that my idea is, or just my entire list of ideas are all of them way, way, way better than just saying, Oh, someone launched a coin and airdropped it to ordinals holders. I just don't, you know, I just don't agree. 1:22:00 One of the key distinctions is, is that you don't really need any new coins once you add a method that like successfully activate a sidechain in a, in like what Drivechains does. 1:22:12 So hold on, let's just like, let's just put this on record since it's being recorded. So you don't envision there being massive downside pressure when you launch this given the distribution mechanism? 1:22:25 Well, current market prices, it's not literally zero, I suppose, but I mean, down from what, like down from 76,000 per coin? 1:22:36 Would you go for like opening day, like just, you know, a chart that looks like from top left to bottom right instead of the opposite? 1:22:44 Yeah, but where does it open at though? 1:22:47 We'll see. I think I'm sure people will speculate, but when it does, there's going to be a certain depth that people are going to print into the bids on, but okay. 1:22:58 I mean, no, but what do you think? Is it really, this is, I mean, is it really such an unfair question? Like you're saying the chart is going to have a certain shape? 1:23:06 You want me to value, you want me to like value it? 1:23:08 You're going to predict the shape, but the average? 1:23:10 Yeah, I don't know. It's fine. 1:23:12 It doesn't make any sense to me. 1:23:14 Okay. So people will, will bid in some kind of a pre-market or something. They'll come up with some valuation. Okay. 1:23:22 Of course, but what do you think it's going to be? 1:23:24 It'll probably come out higher than what it will be a week later and a week after that and a couple of weeks after that. That's, that's what a down valuation looks like. 1:23:33 Have you heard of the efficient markets hypothesis? 1:23:36 Yes. Yes, I have. 1:23:38 It's all random walk. 1:23:41 Have you looked at IPOs and chain genesis's for like the past, I don't know, a little more than a decade? 1:23:47 I think as an economist, you see blatant violations. You know, the existence of efficient markets come from an arbitrage. 1:23:55 The arbitrage doesn't exist unless there's an inefficiency. 1:23:57 Right. 1:23:59 Right. 1:24:01 That's why we have volatility. 1:24:03 There used to be a joke, IPO, it's probably overpriced. And even when they had the ICOs, I did a different joke. You can probably find all these jokes on Twitter. 1:24:13 It's a wacky joke. 1:24:14 You know, I've seen a lot of J.P. Morgan backed price to perfection IPOs in my lifetime that were never priced to perfection. So have you. So a down only chart, I think. 1:24:33 It's like, you know, it's like throwing a party. 1:24:36 I think there's a sense in which I agree with you, which is that the hard fork, it has a limited amount of time to prove itself. And it probably more than 50 percent chance it probably will not prove itself. 1:24:52 So in that sense, you can expect the chart to go from the top left to the bottom right. But the question is, if everyone expects it to have that shape, then that can only be, I think, since you know about the efficient markets, you know that that that can only mean that it has something like a 10 percent chance of jumping way back over the initial top left number. 1:25:19 It cannot you cannot have it predictably go down because then it would just start down. 1:25:25 So I'm not sure exactly how to answer your question. I think this project has only, you know, a 10 ish percent chance of succeeding. 1:25:33 So I think it should be expected to fail. But certainly if it succeeds, it will do much more than 10 X. It may even do 10,000 X or again, that's like now you're going to use the starting price that we've agreed. 1:25:45 We don't know to price in a 10 X. Well, I have no idea what it is. I'm just curious to see your thought process. 1:25:52 I can't really do either. Well, I guess, Dev, I just have a question. So like, don't you think that like the possibility of it becoming something that beats Bitcoin is something that like is worth like a tail risk that people wouldn't want to sell right away? 1:26:05 I think if that's the case, people would be willing to contribute hash and talent and time, which are probably what it needs more than someone who's acquired a lion's share of Bitcoin or a very large portfolio. I'm not sure that. 1:26:20 But we already have a lot of talent and the hash rate will follow the value of the coin and the transaction fee volume. So that's those two go hand in hand. But yeah, like a lot of talent has already been added. So I think people don't realize that this is like a project that we haven't been working on full time, but people have been like tinkering on this project for like eight years or so. 1:26:47 And in the background, there are all kinds of people for all of Bitcoin's history have been saying, oh, we have to get rid of lightning. It doesn't work. And other people have been saying, oh, Paul's idea is actually really, really good. We desperately need this idea. So you can look at LayerTwoLabs.com slash friends. 1:27:06 So this is not like just decided on a random Tuesday to launch a hard fork. And my only idea is for it to be a hard fork of Bitcoin. This is not what's happening at all. What's happening is that the BTC community has entered like a cultural death spiral where it can't talk about its own problems or fix them, even though fixing them would be relatively easy, but not in the current culture. 1:27:27 It's basically impossible. And this is like a life raft escaping the sinking ship. And I'm not even sure what it would mean if this project failed. It might mean that Bitcoin was healthier than I thought, but it might also mean that Bitcoin is even more doomed than I thought. I'm not exactly sure. So this is not just... 1:27:44 Well, you know, maybe I can like, I mean, first of all, thanks for having me up here, despite my life. 1:27:50 It's not just whatever. Rigatoni, Moroni, I forgot. Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for, you know, because a lot of people don't come. A lot of people are haters. And I think, okay, well, hey, come up and explain why you think it's because, you know, no serious person is going to say, oh, I could fit it all into a tweet, why this is a bad idea. So I think if someone really thinks it's a bad idea, they should definitely come up and we want to hear about why. So thanks for coming. 1:28:17 That wasn't like parting words. I just I wanted to mention that we haven't really heard your idea of why. Like, you've obviously just said that you weighed all these things. So you looked at a fair launch and you said that's not a good idea. Well, what's the upside of doing it this way? How does it like you're trading off some cell pressure initially, which I think you conceded on during a conversation that there probably will be some initial cell pressure based on it being an airdrop. 1:28:43 Like so you're trading that off against what exactly what what's like the what's the major upside to dropping to that rich list? 1:29:14 You can't spend it for 100 coins, 100 blocks, excuse me. So so then 100 blocks later, like basically the next day, people can sell the first 50 coins. And it starts at like one hundredth of a cent. But it starts going up. It's going up and up and up and up and up and up. 1:29:32 It starts for like start there, Paul. It starts where the buyer and seller agreed starts. Right. So that person who might know, but I was just giving you an example person in mind, the first block would be the seller. So he would have to find a buyer. It wouldn't start at zero or a fraction of a penny. It would start where they agreed to trade. 1:29:51 Well, I was just kind of trying to copy Bitcoin. Bitcoin kind of started at zero and then it was 10,000 for two pizzas. And then it was, you know, so so I'm just saying like Bitcoin is because, OK, maybe I was giving a long winded explanation. 1:30:05 So the short answer is I'm thinking like, OK, it's either you create something and then it's very illiquid on day one. But the price is low because it's brand new. It doesn't have a community and it doesn't have what it has. It has Paul behind it. It has the vision of a Drivechain empowered future. Like there's a lot baked into it. Like, I don't want to discount that. 1:30:29 I don't think actually that's as good because if the Drivechain powered future is so good, then BTC will just end up because BTC could just activate Drivechain at any time. It's only because of the cultural derangement that they can't. So if they were cured of that misapprehension, then it would be it would be rough competing with BTC. 1:30:49 If a coin that just launched like three or four months ago. But it would mostly be similar, I think. What I was saying is I think that, you know, the price is like a lot of people have this view about the whole the so-called sell pressure. But every every sell is a buy, as you just said. So it's also buying pressure. 1:31:14 I know it's not a market to balance that. Right. And like, like, it obviously becomes overwhelmed when you have people that got something for free. It's just what we've seen often. But go ahead. Like, tell me what's the upside to the rich list? 1:31:27 Well, for starters, okay, you can look at, because I lived through the BCH block size war. And even though there were so many people weighing in, you know, year, month after month, and etc, those people weighed in, and they complained about this, they said lightning sucks, or they said Bitcoin cash sucks, or they said everything sucks. So. 1:31:53 But after a year afterwards, the UTXO sets had not diverged by more than a half, it was like 60% identical. And even if you only want to sell 1%, or a tiny portion of your coins, in a UTXO, you have to move the whole UTXO and it would count as divergent if you sell and then bought back. 1:32:17 So most of the people in the BTC world, even in the BTC BCH split, most of them did not move their coins at all, either way. So I think those are the real Bitcoiners, and they didn't sell and they didn't, as far as I can tell, they didn't talk either. 1:32:41 They just quietly held both. And that's, that's more than half after a year. So I think you're talking, you're focused kind of like on how the price chart looks. But I'm focused more on what do, what does the winning community want the most. 1:33:01 And what they want is for to get everything for free in a gift wrapped box. And then they will, you know, if you respect them, they will respect you back, they'll say, aha, you know, right, this is what I want to be more of getting free. 1:33:17 That's, that's part of why they have fraud proofs and optimistic roll ups is because like, you know, there has to be a correction for like this over optimism, doesn't there? 1:33:25 You mean in optimism, in what sense from the BTC community that everything's going to work out and everyone will be rich? 1:33:36 If we just airdrop to everybody, like they will believe enough of them will believe we'll put money in their pockets, but they're not going to take it now. 1:33:42 I'm not necessarily asking. I mean, you have like a very interesting way of thinking about it, your way seems to be, if you airdrop to people, they'll sell and that's bad. But I'm kind of thinking like if we airdrop to people, then they'll sell and that's good, because now they found a buyer, they're thinking about the project. 1:34:06 Whereas if instead you launch from zero coins, then it's much easier to ignore because no one has any coins, no one has any skin in the game, I would rather that people sell and actually do something than do nothing. 1:34:18 If you did it, I mean, look, if you did it that way, okay, and SHA-256 was the algorithm, and let's say it was not merged, it was not, is it going to be, like, is OXPOW going to be enabled? Like, what would the miner choice be? 1:34:33 No, the L1 is SHA-256, and it is not merged mined with BTC, the L2s are merged mined with L1. 1:34:42 So the choice there would be pretty obvious, right? Like, each block would have an electric floor, wouldn't it? And it would also have the opportunity cost of mining Bitcoin instead, using the same algorithm. Therefore, like, each… 1:34:54 Well, we cut the difficulty. The difficulty would be cut way down. So at first, it would be a no-brainer that you would mine it. You would, yes, you would mine the eCash, because the difficulty would be so low, even though the price is also low, they cancel out. 1:35:08 I've seen, like, new networks launched. Like, you can look at Pearl. I think you might be underestimating, like, how many people will participate on day zero, like, at Genesis. I don't think that would be the case at all. 1:35:21 I'm hoping more people will. I want more participants. 1:35:24 I think you would have a lot of participants, and you would have a high electric floor, and you would have value beyond zero. A balance in your account would be an acquisition of eCash at zero. A mined coin with a much slower release schedule is an entirely different thing with an electricity floor baked into it. 1:35:50 I mean, I think the difference between the two of us is I want people to sell. Does that make sense? 1:35:59 I don't think you don't believe me, because you think that selling means the price is going down, but first of all, that's mathematically not possible. Actually, every sell is a buy. But I know what you mean. You mean that there will be people who don't value the thing, and they want to get rid of it. 1:36:14 And they want to – we've got someone who wants to come up, and they are flashing the emoji, like, their heart – like, their life depends upon it. So we'll get them up, and then there's, like, a 20-second delay. 1:36:25 Dave, forgive me, Dave. Forgive me for what I'm about to do, Dave. Paul, have you ever spoke to Dave before? 1:36:32 No, I don't think so. 1:36:33 I just wanted to get that out there. Dave happens to be locked into the early mining scene, so he is advocating for his bags to pump as soon as possible, I do believe, versus – 1:36:46 Yeah, he doesn't want to hold – 1:36:47 Ah, now it all comes out. Yes, he's got a bunch of – he's got a hydroelectric dam somewhere that he's – he knows where the – 1:36:56 And he's been doing this to me every day this week, by the way. So come on, I'm just going to sit here and listen and laugh. 1:37:00 Sure. You're speaking with a notorious troll who's, like, taking, I don't know, what seemingly was a good conversation about a fair launch versus a distributed launch and tried to – 1:37:11 Okay, here's my real take, Dave. Here's my real take. 1:37:14 You're being selfish, Dave, in that we do not onboard Bitcoiners with your method. 1:37:22 But it's true, though. Everyone has their own thing that would benefit them slightly more. And this is, like, whatever you do is going to make a lot of people – of course, if you do the fair launch, then you lose all the Bitcoiners who say, hey, why don't I get free coins? 1:37:34 Why should I give you any attention at all? 1:37:36 I'd like an opportunity to slide back. DJAN also launched – he launched a proof-of-work coin, which happened to be a fair launch and did not airdrop to Bitcoin. 1:37:44 Yeah, eight years ago. Okay, hold on. Relax, everybody. 1:37:47 I'll just – I'll go ahead and point out the obvious hypocrisy there, but continue. 1:37:51 Okay, yeah. So it's like if – is it really the worst thing? Let's imagine that you're someone like Michael Saylor. There's a hard fork. 1:38:06 Now, of course, Michael Saylor hates – I mean I don't even know if he has – if he's thought about it enough to have a real opinion. 1:38:13 My guess is no, honestly, having actually spoken to him. I have actually spoken to him a few times, and I think he doesn't even have any idea what any of this is and what's going on at all. 1:38:24 But I think if he had an opinion, the opinion that's consistent with his previous comments is that he hates privacy, he hates innovation, he hates any software development. 1:38:36 He's pro-ossification. He's pro a very naive form of ossification where he just kind of thinks that anything you touch is bad, even though the Bitcoin Core puts out new versions every six months and there's no way of stopping them. 1:38:50 There's all these CVEs. There's this whole ecosystem of like – so this is like the – so my guess is he'd be a hater, long story short. 1:38:58 Other than that, he's really friendly. So I guess he'd be a hater, and he'd want to sell. 1:39:04 But the point is now you have to kind of go into a room, and you have to kind of have a little bit of a think, don't you? 1:39:09 You have to kind of think, well, okay, I know that when it didn't matter at all, and I was just bullshitting online – this is me being Michael Saylor, by the way. 1:39:20 So he was like, when it didn't matter at all, and I was just bullshitting online, I said I didn't actually care about any of this stuff, privacy, development, whatever, innovation, soft forks. 1:39:31 But now actual money is on the line, and now they have to think, well, wait a minute, do I actually really believe any of this stuff? 1:39:38 Should I sell all of this, or should I sell half of it? 1:39:42 So it draws people's attention to the actual ideas. 1:39:46 It says, well, now they have to actually care. 1:39:49 If they do that, then I'm guaranteed to win because I have the best ideas in all the lands. 1:39:54 So that's better than just saying, oh, I launched a new coin starting at zero. 1:40:02 That does have some advantages, but the short answer is that – 1:40:07 It's just two different crowds. For example, you're targeting people that have been in Bitcoin for a lot longer, been in crypto space for a lot longer by doing it the way you're doing it. 1:40:16 But also, I think Dave does kind of have a point. Let's say Michael Saylor is that way. He can destroy the entirety of the liquidity by himself for whatever you got going on at Binance or wherever down the road. 1:40:30 So there is some truth to that where it's like, dude, some of these people got – 1:40:35 Yeah, but how much liquidity – 1:40:36 It's amazing that a notorious troll was able to maintain sensibility for just half a second. That was one of the greatest things I think I've ever heard him say. 1:40:45 Can we not steal Satoshi's coins? Let's steal Saylor's coins instead, Paul. What do you think about that? Is that better or worse? 1:40:51 Well, that joke has been made many times. 1:40:54 It's not a joke. This is a serious suggestion. 1:40:57 You know, it's actually funny. I'll get to that in a second. But let me first – oh, you made me lose my train of thought. I was going to ask you. Oh, I was going to say, how much liquidity do we have now? 1:41:04 Which is the answer is zero. We don't have any. 1:41:06 So even if Saylor nukes liquidity for like three weeks, we're still in a better position than we are right now. And then on week four, that'll be like the real day one. 1:41:17 And then, you know, it kind of makes it hard to complain for all these people who are like, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I hate eCash. 1:41:24 People will be wondering in the back of their head. They'll be thinking, wait a minute. Is this one of those – you know, do they like sell all their – is that the real reason why? 1:41:31 And then they'll think, oh, you know what? I could be the new Michael Saylor if I just buy up all these cheap eCash. 1:41:35 So I think it still leaves you with a lot of opportunities. 1:41:40 I'll play devil's advocate with my own argument for a second, if I may. 1:41:46 I don't think that that's really the upside to distributing to the rich list so much as handing people tokens to play with on your network. 1:41:54 So they wouldn't have to acquire tokens. They would be able to participate on Drivechains with something in their wallets when they had nothing before. 1:42:02 That would be the main thing. 1:42:04 What are you saying? Like giving away for free? Is that what you're saying? 1:42:06 That would be the main thing that you would accomplish. When I was asking you what the upside is, wouldn't that be one of the major upsides? 1:42:12 Yeah. So you think that's a good thing? I can't even tell. 1:42:17 I think he's suggesting that that's better than just giving it to the rich list. 1:42:21 But here's the thing. If you add them together, it's the same thing. If you give them to the rich list and they immediately sell – 1:42:26 No, no, no. Distribution lessens the likeliness of it all impacting the price simultaneously. 1:42:31 So more distribution, it goes less price impact direction right away. 1:42:36 Well, one thing about the price, though, is that even the haters – like if you're a hater and you want to sell, you still want the price to be high when you sell. 1:42:49 So it does kind of create a little bit of a – even the people who hate it, all the owners become shills, even the haters. 1:43:00 Right, but at the beginning, you're going to get this effect like he was explaining earlier, like what we got with Bitcoin Cash, but probably less. 1:43:06 But isn't that basically – but that was the point I was going to make earlier, but isn't it basically the same thing? 1:43:12 If you start with a few coins being mined, now you have a crazy volatile price or maybe no price because there's not enough liquidity or this is only like an OTC desk or something. 1:43:22 And so either way, you're looking at like three or four weeks of kind of just total chaos before you settle on a price. 1:43:29 Right. So it's kind of like – 1:43:30 Let's compare it. Let's say you give it to the whales, right? Then you have one whale, just a single guy. He has, let's say, 0.5% of all Bitcoin. 1:43:36 He's now going to have 0.5% of all eCash. That same 0.5% of the supply could have gone to 20,000 people, right? 1:43:42 So that's the – I think that's the argument here is what's the tradeoff between like just directly rewarding the rich list versus like how do we intelligently spread out the coins to make a better distribution? 1:43:52 But I don't think like having 20,000 people separately owning it is really much of a benefit. Like you want it to be in people who are going to like incentivize development. 1:44:02 Not necessarily. Like those people that incentivize development are going to leave the chain in three years after you pay them and go to Solana. So like that's not really a – 1:44:11 No, I agree with JK that it's like, okay, we could give it to 20,000 people, but it's like pearls before swine. 1:44:16 Like they have – everyone has an opportunity now today to just buy BTC and then they're in for eCash. And if they're not – if they don't want to join this – 1:44:27 I would just be cautious not to fall for this old school Bitcoin mentality. This is what you guys do. 1:44:30 This is the same thing the Bitcoin Cash community did that caused it to be so behind the times. 1:44:34 Like you cannot be so royal about everything. Like, oh, we know better because we're Bitcoiners. 1:44:39 Like the industry has moved on and there's new standards that you guys have to understand at the minimum so that when you do not comply with those standards of the community, you can at least explain yourself. 1:44:47 I think they're wrong. Like straight up. I think that basically everything in crypto has just been living off the corpse of Bitcoin and there's not a whole lot of value to these projects. It's just a lot of gambling. 1:44:56 Yeah, sure. But I mean like that doesn't have to do with 20,000 people. 1:45:01 I would agree with that and I would also agree – yeah, I would also – I think we're really trying to get the best of both worlds here, which is we want the innovation to be captured via the Drivechain L2s. 1:45:14 But we also want the L1 to not really change that much and we don't want it to be the subject of all these weird campaigns, whatever, Bitcoin XT, hard fork, SegWit2x. 1:45:24 So these are some things that we want and we're trying to have it split the difference and have our cake and eat it too. 1:45:30 So I think that it's funny because this project is criticized as being too big of a change in the BTC world and then you're saying, well, BTC doesn't change enough. 1:45:41 Yeah, but all the BTC people are fucking morons, absolute fucking worthless morons. Like everyone on this app is a fucking retard. I don't know why their opinion matters for even a split second though. 1:45:51 Well, that's part of the thing about the 20,000 people maybe shouldn't get it because someone who's a big concentrated – they used to be called blockholders in the stock market world, but that doesn't make sense in the blockchain world. 1:46:05 But it's like these big owners, they have more of a – maybe that's someone who can make a phone call or make something happen for you and so that could be a lot better. 1:46:16 Okay, now wait. We got to get to stealing sailors coins as a joke because there is something to it, which is – okay, in order to do that, just hypothetically, you would need to know which UTXOs are his. 1:46:30 And the irony there is that Saylor hates Bitcoin privacy, and he has made all these videos about maybe you don't need a Monero, you can look it up. 1:46:39 He's like – or he says maybe you need a Monero. Even Peter McCormick asked him like, hey, what about these people who live in like whatever, like under an authoritarian state and they're here for the subversive – they want a property right to their – they want privacy. 1:46:54 And he's like – and Michael Saylor has this answer that's just horrendous from a – well, basically in lots of ways where he just says, well, maybe you need a Monero, and then he says, and then the market will determine that, which is just another way of saying like I haven't given it any thought and I don't know what we're talking about. 1:47:11 And so that's the thing is he – Michael Saylor lives in the world where everything is done with SOC reports and there's a corporatization of everything, and so there's an official balance sheet with an account and everything. 1:47:24 So that's the irony is that the privacy – 1:47:26 What are we even talking about here? He just sold 32 corn to go cover a dividend payment. What are we even weighing here? 1:47:34 Oh, you think they're going under? That's what you're saying? 1:47:39 No, I'm saying that deleting – we should – this is not a serious suggestion, but it's a decent – the idea that everyone who doesn't care about privacy, we should round up their UTXOs and just delete them or take those. 1:47:55 I don't think that's the point that we're making. I think the point we're making is it's a distribution mechanic of – it's a mathematical thing when there's one person with 5% – this happens on every single shitcoin launched ever, etc., etc. 1:48:09 We see it every single day. If someone has 5 or more percent of a supply, they are a detrimental fucking risk to the entire community, that single person. 1:48:18 And you can say, oh, well, they're not going to sell, but you don't know that. 1:48:22 No, I want them to sell. 1:48:23 Well, that's going to destroy whatever trajectory you have for a year, that kind of stuff, a whole year, not three weeks, not four weeks, a year, two years, three years of downward pressure is what you're going to see. 1:48:33 So don't forget that part, I think. 1:48:34 But that's up from zero, so I guess that's – 1:48:36 No, it's not. No, it's not. It's up from wherever they sold it from, the first person to get on an exchange. 1:48:40 So if me and Dave go wash trade on the first exchange, you guys at some fucking trillion-dollar market cap, that is the starting market cap, my dude. 1:48:46 It doesn't matter what you say it is. 1:48:47 Not really. 1:48:48 Yes, it is, on the chart, on every data point, on every tracking mechanism. 1:48:52 Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I agree with JK that it doesn't matter. 1:48:57 If you fall into a coma and you wake up and you say, well, right now, there's no eCash cloud there. 1:49:01 It's going to matter, my dude. 1:49:04 Maybe. I don't think so, though. 1:49:06 Well, take it from us, cable shitcoiners, you guys just sat around acting like shitcoiners. 1:49:09 We are telling you the way it's going to play out, so have fun. 1:49:12 Well, hey, you know that in Bitcoin's history, there have been a few times where the price has gone sideways and down for multiple years. 1:49:19 All I'm saying is you're going to have a Bitcoin cash chart for four or five years if you do it this way. 1:49:24 And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. 1:49:26 I'm just telling you, that's what you're getting into right now. 1:49:28 I don't think four or five years. 1:49:29 No, I don't think four or five years. 1:49:30 100%. 1:49:31 I will be buying 99% down at the bottom. 1:49:33 You know what I'm saying? 1:49:34 Like, just watch. 1:49:37 I don't think four or five years. 1:49:40 It's talking about three months. 1:49:41 It's talking about four weeks, you know? 1:49:42 That's what I'm saying. 1:49:43 It's going to be a long time. 1:49:44 I've seen Bitcoin crash 50% in a single day. 1:49:47 And it really depends. 1:49:48 Like, if people really get mad at you for taking Satoshi's coins or whatever, half of them or whatever, and that becomes a narrative that you don't want to fight against. 1:49:53 Because, again, you guys aren't very good at fighting off of these, like, behemoth narrative groups, you know, where they're like, oh! 1:49:59 I know, but when the project launches, there will be a whole group of new owners. 1:50:03 Exactly the point, Paul! 1:50:05 So if you give 20,000 people some coins, you'll have a bigger army! 1:50:08 Here's a question, Degen, for you. 1:50:09 But wouldn't I rather have one good person? 1:50:12 I guess you got it figured out. 1:50:13 Arguably. 1:50:14 Let me ask. 1:50:15 So, like, basically, Degen, why do you think these other, like, Proof of Stake or any other of these altcoins are not doing the fork, the foundation coins off, and then, like, make their own thing? 1:50:25 Because that would seem – that's what I always – 1:50:28 We should have been doing that. 1:50:29 We should have been doing that, yeah. 1:50:30 Yeah, but why aren't they? 1:50:31 I think there would have been a better way to do it this way long term. 1:50:33 But I think we got off into token land. 1:50:35 We got lost in token land on ETH, and then we came to Solana, and then it became 1,000 L2s. 1:50:40 So people – all the people in this industry that were onboarded in that phase, they just have a different understanding of the space than people that were onboarded through UTXO chains back in the era, right? 1:50:49 So, like, yeah, I agree with you. 1:50:51 But, again, like I said, the industry has changed. 1:50:53 My old understanding of crypto, very much like your guys' is right now, had to be updated to not go crazy, right? 1:51:01 These things are realities, right? 1:51:03 The way that a distribution affects the playing of a chart, the way that the chart actually matters long term because every single day someone's going to screenshot it and post it on the timeline. 1:51:12 Things like – they don't seem like they matter in conversation, but in practice, they're going to bite you in the ass. 1:51:18 So, like, distribution is the healthiest way to fight against those things, period. 1:51:24 No other stat comes close. 1:51:26 Distribution, if there was a stat for it, would be far more important than market cap, than price, than everything. 1:51:30 I think in terms of stability, yes. 1:51:32 But I think in terms of volatility, like Paul was talking about, that is kind of like the opposite of what happened with Bitcoin and its rise. 1:51:39 Okay. 1:51:40 Is it fair to – you're right, JK. 1:51:43 And I don't think anybody's necessarily wrong here, and we don't matter. 1:51:47 Paul matters. 1:51:49 And it seems like – 1:51:50 I'm just curious. 1:51:51 You said distribution is the most important thing. 1:51:53 What's the perfect distribution? 1:51:54 I'm just curious. 1:51:55 As wide and as long term as possible is the perfect distribution. 1:51:57 There's no number for it. 1:51:59 It's like security, right? 1:52:01 It's the other side of security. 1:52:02 Like you can never have perfect security. 1:52:04 There's no measurement for security. 1:52:05 Okay. 1:52:06 Here. 1:52:07 Look, putting the coins – 1:52:09 What does it mean, though? 1:52:10 You're saying, like, have it just – 1:52:11 Most people possible over a period of time continually. 1:52:14 You would say airdrop it to, like, 18 people. 1:52:16 Not necessarily airdrop it. 1:52:17 Maybe claims, maybe faucets, whatever way you can do it. 1:52:20 Get as many people in as you can. 1:52:21 Okay. 1:52:23 A faucet? 1:52:24 Now I'm giving them away for free. 1:52:25 The faucet is a zero-price seller. 1:52:27 Don't give, like, an endless – 1:52:28 You're worried about Michael Taylor selling for 10 cents? 1:52:31 You give a penny, and that person is going to be onboarded, 1:52:33 and the cost of acquisition has now become a penny for a new user. 1:52:36 You see what I'm saying? 1:52:37 Like, it's just better. 1:52:39 No, at all. 1:52:40 The faucet is giving them away for selling them at zero. 1:52:43 A faucet is not going to affect your price. 1:52:45 The guy that has 3% that is willing to just clip out is going to affect your price. 1:52:50 I mean, I don't know. 1:52:52 It doesn't sound that airtight to me. 1:52:54 It doesn't sound very thought out. 1:52:55 All you're doing is exposing yourself for not trading in altcoins enough. 1:52:58 That's all you're doing right now. 1:52:59 Honestly. 1:53:00 I focused on – 1:53:01 You know, I'm obsessed with the fundamentals. 1:53:03 I am, too. 1:53:04 So, I know that there's a whole – 1:53:05 You have to know both sides. 1:53:06 You can't just leave it to one side only. 1:53:07 Can I just weigh on it? 1:53:08 Like, the tradeoff here is that, from what Paul has expressed, 1:53:12 is that he believes that he's going to airdrop the rich list, 1:53:16 and they may dump the tokens. 1:53:18 He doesn't really care, 1:53:19 but people will have some tokens to play with on the new drivechain. 1:53:22 And that's traded off against the sell pressure, 1:53:25 which is going to mount up against the market depth, 1:53:28 which, albeit, will be pretty slim at the beginning. 1:53:31 And you are going to have people in the rich list 1:53:34 who single-handedly could set the token to zero, 1:53:36 just like a pump fund shitcoin. 1:53:38 I have problems with that mechanic. 1:53:40 He doesn't. 1:53:41 But it's just me. 1:53:43 I think so. 1:53:44 From this perspective, 1:53:46 I mean, Bitcoin Maximus, 1:53:47 basically, I view this, and the whole idea is 1:53:51 it is overtaking the Bitcoin culture 1:53:53 as being the true Bitcoin culture of building 1:53:56 and letting the Michael Saylor take the name. 1:53:59 I mean, I don't think that – 1:54:01 The culture came from fair launches. 1:54:03 No, that's not – 1:54:05 Like, from when? 1:54:06 Nobody was in the launch of Bitcoin. 1:54:08 It basically was not a launch at all. 1:54:12 But it had its distribution phase, 1:54:13 where it was worthless for years and years and years, 1:54:15 and people were able to get in. 1:54:17 You couldn't spin up a node and solo mine? 1:54:20 Yeah, I think you're right. 1:54:22 He's saying it wasn't that widely known. 1:54:24 The same thing in practice, though. 1:54:26 Like, very few people knew about it, 1:54:28 and so it's kind of debatable. 1:54:30 Like, it wasn't like, 1:54:32 yeah, okay, in one sense, 1:54:33 anyone had the opportunity to mine. 1:54:36 It's kind of like saying 1:54:37 anyone has the opportunity to invent eCash or whatever. 1:54:40 It's like anyone has the opportunity 1:54:42 to do whatever they want to do. 1:54:44 Okay, so if we take passing of time – 1:54:46 I feel bad, though, that we had one person – 1:54:48 we had one or two people request, 1:54:50 get admitted as a speaker, and then – 1:54:53 I think that's just Twitter being dogshit a lot of the time. 1:54:55 That happens all day. 1:54:57 Let's see if someone wants to – 1:54:59 if Justin wants to say anything, 1:55:00 we should rope him in. 1:55:02 We can continue to talk about the same topic or whatever. 1:55:05 I don't know. 1:55:06 Sorry, I can't remember. 1:55:07 Be friendly. 1:55:08 So what software do you guys particularly find interesting 1:55:11 that needs to be added, 1:55:12 or what type of technical ads 1:55:16 are things you're following? 1:55:18 Way for Drivechains to talk to one another, for example. 1:55:21 I don't know if you looked at the IBC standard, 1:55:24 or how are the chains going to talk to one another? 1:55:26 I'd love to know that from a technological standpoint. 1:55:29 But why – 1:55:30 I've also thought about that, 1:55:31 but at the same point, 1:55:33 what purpose does that pose? 1:55:35 I've thought like – 1:55:37 Sovereignty? 1:55:38 Sovereignty, but why between – 1:55:40 I mean the whole thing is that Drivechain 1:55:42 is the communication between them. 1:55:44 You just peg into the main chain. 1:55:47 How does value move from one to the other? 1:55:49 How are they linked together? 1:55:50 What if you have one – 1:55:51 Yeah. 1:55:52 You know, each of them has – 1:55:54 they'll have like an RPC server. 1:55:57 I don't know if that's literally what you're asking. 1:55:59 When they're on the coin – 1:56:02 I don't know. 1:56:03 I don't know, JK. 1:56:04 I mean, I think he's literally just like – 1:56:07 The idea is that you can move your coins 1:56:09 from one chain to the other, 1:56:10 and that's how you interact 1:56:12 and communicate between the chains. 1:56:13 Unless there's like some specific mechanism – 1:56:16 Oh, yeah. 1:56:17 Sure, I could come up with a few. 1:56:18 This is something that we've already seen 1:56:20 in the Cosmos ecosystem 1:56:22 where you're able to use a standard 1:56:24 rather than a just trust me bro bridge 1:56:26 between drivechains. 1:56:27 I don't know if that connected Drivechains 1:56:28 have the same limitations 1:56:30 that you would have for any other type of peg system. 1:56:33 Would they not be able to trustlessly speak 1:56:35 with each other? 1:56:36 Imagine that you had one 1:56:37 where you had a borrowing and lending market. 1:56:39 On the other one, 1:56:40 you had a perpetuals exchange. 1:56:42 Obviously, the two of those 1:56:44 are interlinked with one another 1:56:45 as borrowing and lending activity 1:56:47 is how those contracts are made. 1:56:50 I mean, I think the idea is that you just – 1:56:53 Sorry. 1:56:54 The idea, I think, is you just use an HTLC 1:56:56 to peg into the other thing 1:56:58 using an atomic swap. 1:56:59 That's kind of the idea 1:57:00 of how you talk between chains. 1:57:03 I mean, the idea – 1:57:06 If you borrowed to create a large position 1:57:08 on a borrowing and lending market 1:57:10 to place it on a perpetuals one after 1:57:12 and there's a federated committee 1:57:14 that doesn't want to let you clear your trade, 1:57:16 wouldn't that be an issue? 1:57:18 No. 1:57:19 None of this has – 1:57:20 It's all trustless. 1:57:21 You can use the pegging mechanism 1:57:23 for Drivechains to move your coins 1:57:24 if nobody else will take your atomic swap. 1:57:29 David's calculating. 1:57:31 I'll give him a second. 1:57:32 I'm not calculating. 1:57:33 I wanted to understand 1:57:34 how the chains talk. 1:57:35 I don't know what standards. 1:57:37 I actually – 1:57:38 If I could chime in, 1:57:39 I actually asked this question to Paul. 1:57:41 I have quite a few questions 1:57:42 related to this 1:57:44 on one of the previous spaces 1:57:45 where you have an L2, 1:57:49 a Drivechain on two different Layer 1s. 1:57:52 It's the same Drivechain 1:57:54 as the L2. 1:57:56 It's the same L1s. 1:57:57 It's the same Drivechain 1:57:59 like BitAssets or BitNames, 1:58:02 and they can migrate 1:58:04 because they're exactly the same. 1:58:08 Yeah, that – 1:58:10 Because you mean like you want to move – 1:58:12 Yeah, you can do one – 1:58:14 Like you could say – 1:58:16 You could take a snapshot of BitAssets 1:58:19 at a certain time 1:58:21 and then start it up again 1:58:23 on a different L1. 1:58:25 There are like a couple 1:58:26 of different things you could do. 1:58:27 They're all very, very different 1:58:28 from each other, 1:58:29 so it depends totally 1:58:30 on what people wanted to achieve, 1:58:32 and it might be complicated to follow. 1:58:36 But one thing that I'd like to emphasize 1:58:38 is that if you just work 1:58:39 on the L2 software, 1:58:41 which is like basically 1:58:42 what LayerTwo Labs does, 1:58:43 anyone who uses BIP300 1:58:45 can just take all of that 1:58:47 off the shelf, 1:58:49 the BIP300 301 activator, 1:58:52 privacy, L2, the scaling L2s, 1:58:57 BitAssets, et cetera, prediction markets. 1:59:00 You just take all that and plug it in. 1:59:01 It's like you have a USB port 1:59:04 on your computer, 1:59:05 and now you have a USB hub, 1:59:07 and you can plug – 1:59:09 And we're like building like the mouse 1:59:12 and the webcam and all that stuff. 1:59:14 So you could do that. 1:59:15 Now, with BitAssets, 1:59:16 there's all this other information, 1:59:18 and BitNames is similar. 1:59:20 There's like this other stuff 1:59:21 where people have issued like stuff 1:59:23 that's like ordinals or NFTs. 1:59:25 There's like a long history there. 1:59:27 You could like snapshot that, 1:59:29 and on one time, 1:59:31 you could start up an L2 1:59:35 on a different L1 1:59:36 that has the exact same L2 history. 1:59:40 It's basically hard fork BitAssets 1:59:43 onto the second different L1. 1:59:47 I don't know if anyone would ever want 1:59:49 to do an L2 that was on two different – 1:59:53 same L2, 1:59:54 but on two different L1s simultaneously. 1:59:58 I don't think that would ever be great 2:00:00 because the L1s might disagree on something, 2:00:03 and then it would be chaos. 2:00:05 So I don't think that would work. 2:00:06 Have you thought – 2:00:07 I'm sorry. 2:00:08 What were the reasons for using the L2 2:00:09 on the sidechain? 2:00:12 Roughly? 2:00:16 Well, for BitAssets, it's kind of like – the idea was that it would domesticate – that would be like 2:00:22 an L2 for all this stuff about like counterparty, colored coins, ordinals, NFTs, whatever. It would 2:00:30 all just be like fit in this like zoo, and so that one in particular, you would wonder about like, oh, 2:00:36 can we like move that state around or something? Or it could be more like Tether, where you have 2:00:45 USDT on Ethereum or on Tron or something. So then that would also work, but that'd be a slightly 2:00:55 different thing. You'd have an L1, L2 with BitAssets on eCash, then a different L2, BitAssets 2:01:02 on something else, some other L1, and they would each issue some whatever they would call USDT, 2:01:09 and then they would just live in separate worlds. 2:01:12 That makes sense. So yeah, I guess like in terms of – that's what I was originally, 2:01:15 I guess, wondering about what Dave was saying, is just like – I don't think that other coins are 2:01:21 really thinking about things in that way either, so I don't know. I was just wondering in general. 2:01:31 Well, if you had like a Namecoin compatibility or a cross-chain Namecoin, the idea was, yeah, 2:01:41 you could keep bring that across to the other Layer 1 chain and you still have your Namecoin 2:01:48 or what have you. Yeah, the issue is 2:01:54 BitAssets and BitNames, in particular BitNames. BitNames is supposed to be like this other 2:01:59 dimension of digital scarcity, so it's like you don't want anyone else to take the Justin name 2:02:05 or like Google.Bit or something. You don't want anyone else to have it, so you want to prevent 2:02:11 double spending, basically double registering of names, and the set matters, and it's kind of like 2:02:18 you want it to be totally up-to-date, and it's like having like duplication problems in your 2:02:24 spreadsheet or having to do all this data fixing. So that's a case where you only want there to be 2:02:35 one state at any given time, and so you would want it to be something where you could like 2:02:45 destroy an old version but port it into a new situation. Would there be a way of using like 2:02:52 Truthcoin in order to determine the true set of domain names? 2:03:00 Okay, well, so BitNames and Truthcoin are different, and I think the answer is yes, 2:03:06 even though the question is kind of complicated. But I think in the post I wrote, I wrote a post 2:03:12 about BitNames where I explained how we would take on ICANN and win because that's really hard, 2:03:18 but it's something you basically have to do if you're serious about your name project, and 2:03:27 it's not really about which one is right, but yeah, you could, 2:03:30 it's completely separately from that. You could use, I think prediction markets are really 2:03:34 underexplored in terms of like you could have stuff where it's like, okay, if we do this soft 2:03:42 fork or not, or if we do this hard fork or not, what would the price be? What would the exchange 2:03:48 rate be? So that you didn't get prediction markets on those things. That's like really, 2:03:53 really, really helpful. That's what I presented about it scaling one in September of 2015, 2:03:59 more than 10 years ago, but still no one, no one does it, and we sometimes do these fork futures, 2:04:05 which are very low quality, which no one has done. Hopefully, maybe they're a little better now, 2:04:10 but they don't even do like, you know, the better fork futures would be conditional, 2:04:16 and they would say like, if we did this hard fork, usually when people do fork futures now, 2:04:21 they say like, okay, what will the BIP-110 coin trade for? And it's kind of unclear exactly what 2:04:28 happens if like, what happens if BTC activates BIP-110, or what happens if there is no fork, 2:04:34 or what happens? So it's like, so even though I proposed back in 2015, exactly what to do, 2:04:41 that would be really, really fun and let people trade. And it would be very helpful for everyone. 2:04:46 And of course, we would all do whatever makes the price go up. Goes without saying. 2:04:51 I don't know if there is, like, I suppose this is what Truthcoin is designed to be, 2:04:55 but like using it as an oracle for BitNames, in order to resolve something like in a market that 2:05:01 says like, oh, is this the correct google.com domain IP address? And if it doesn't resolve to 2:05:07 the actual like Google service, you're going to know for sure. Most people are going to say not. 2:05:12 Yeah, you're going to mix a few things. The Truthcoin can be used for almost anything. 2:05:19 But it's very, it works best for high impact decisions that affect lots of people and are 2:05:28 controversial and easy to measure at the end. So something like, you know, what does the Fed 2:05:34 set? Will the Fed tighten rates? Or will we fire the CEO and replace them with someone else? Or 2:05:41 will we fire the ruling party? Will we fire the Democratic Party or fire the Republican Party and 2:05:46 replace them with the Democrat? These are really easy. And then like, what's the GDP? What's the 2:05:50 stock price? What's the, okay, what is the whatever, how much inflation is there? So those are 2:05:55 things that have a huge impact. They're very controversial upfront, they're very easy to 2:06:00 measure. After the fact, that is where Truthcoin works really, really well. The thing about the 2:06:07 Google domains, which the ICANN, or I call the ICANN names like google.com. I have this like, 2:06:14 this interesting idea where over time BitNames will be automatically synchronizing with like the 2:06:22 ICANN formatted names, but there will be a separate set of like sovereign names that are 2:06:28 not synchronized. And these would be like dot bit or like dot anarchy or something. 2:06:34 And these would be totally ruled by the key. And once you own it, on the blockchain, you like own 2:06:39 it forever. And it has all these like different properties. And so in that way, BitNames would 2:06:44 be like compatible with both. That's the how to take on ICANN and win part, because you have to 2:06:55 give people a property right. People who bought google.com, or eCash.com or bitcoin.com or 2:07:02 whatever. People have already like invested in that, that's the system we have. And we can't 2:07:08 screw that system up. And it's people, if we do, then all we're going to get is a bunch of angry 2:07:15 people who ignore the project. So that would be no good. We have to somehow make sure we protect 2:07:20 all the existing property rights to the names, while also adding on this, this feature, you know, 2:07:28 and the features are really, really good. Like I think, I think people are actually hungry for 2:07:35 a sovereign name situation. For starters, it always gets invented. Like it's being invented on 2:07:41 like, you know, Ethereum did the Ethereum name system. And even on Bitcoin SV, there was like a 2:07:48 name, cash tag or something. So it keeps getting invented independently. And even with lightning, 2:07:54 it's like, it only works if you have a, it's kind of a long story. I don't want to get into it. But 2:08:00 yeah, or a handshake. Exactly. Right. So it keeps getting independently invented. 2:08:08 A handshake. And then there was a, I can't remember. There was like another one that was 2:08:12 really big in like 2019. DNS. But whatever. Yeah, that was just DNS I think. Does anybody 2:08:19 want to buy slutwife.btc? Get out of here dude. Do you think that basically you could incentivize 2:08:26 like participating in some of those like less designed for Truthcoin type markets by having 2:08:33 like a sidechain, like subsidize it in some way? Is that like a? Well, for all the markets 2:08:39 in Truthcoin, they are designed to accept the subsidy. So they have the automated market maker. 2:08:48 And that, I think that's crucial because the, in particular prediction markets have like a kind of 2:08:55 a big adverse selection. The prediction market invites people who have more information to 2:09:02 trade. So when you trade, you always have to be thinking, Hey, do I have like, do I have like 2:09:07 near the most information? Because otherwise it shouldn't trade. It's very bad for liquidity. 2:09:11 It's very bad for liquidity. So these are programmed to benefit from trading, trading activity. 2:09:21 It's kind of similar to pump that fun is to a little extent that I understand the pump that 2:09:25 fun, but it's like you, you can collect if you make a market that people enjoy trading in. 2:09:32 But you have to front the liquidity to, to create this thing. So is that the log? 2:09:39 By the names. Oh yeah. So I was wondering, is that the logarithmic scoring rule or something 2:09:43 like that? It is. Yeah. It's a logarithmic scoring rule has many advantageous properties, 2:09:49 such as having very high liquidity at the edges. And, but also where when you combine 2:09:57 multiple events, such as if we, if we fire the CEO, will the stock price go up? People can trade 2:10:04 on the device. When people trade independent on each event independently, they don't get charged 2:10:10 extra or less or something. They just get charged the exact same amount as if someone had only made 2:10:15 a market on the CEO being fired or only made a market on the corporation stock price. So you 2:10:21 can do all kinds of combinations without it interfering. It's just as one of its many 2:10:27 beneficial properties. It's a good place to like look into that in particular. Do you know 2:10:32 the logarithmic market scoring rule? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The only, there's only one place in the 2:10:37 whole internet. No, I'm not sure, but okay. When I learned it, I found one webpage and it wasn't 2:10:45 good, but it was because of Robin Hanson. I love Robin Hanson. It's one of my favorite people in 2:10:50 the whole world. He came up, he, he invented like a lot of this stuff. And a lot of the stuff was, 2:10:55 I was just like adapting it for blockchain, which was still pretty insightful, but still, 2:11:02 you know, Robin Hanson invented all this stuff. He has this paper, a 2002 paper, 2:11:06 something like that. It's like ancient, you know, that's not that ancient, but the point is 2:11:12 long story short, I made this spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel. It's on bitcoinhivemind.com 2:11:18 and you can find it. And as far as I'm concerned, this is the only way anyone has a chance, 2:11:22 a snowball's chance in hell, because I had to learn it. And I, I took like so long to even 2:11:28 figure out what on earth Robin Hanson was even talking about. And so I made the spreadsheet 2:11:33 to learn it myself. And of course it's very hard to follow a spreadsheet because it's like 2:11:38 all code, but there's no comments and stuff, but I worked really hard to add like arrows and 2:11:43 explanations and things. So if you download this spreadsheet in Microsoft Excel, it's by far the 2:11:48 best way, by far a million, maybe new stuff is because the spreadsheets from like 2015 or 2:11:54 something. And I update it from time to time. I add a new tab. There's like a million tabs, 2:11:59 but I couldn't believe how hard it was to learn. I was like, this is so confusing. And I was like, 2:12:04 well, how, and I was like, what is he even talking about? And I was just baffled the whole time. 2:12:09 Why is it logarithmic and not spherical? I had like no idea what was going on and I made my 2:12:15 eat. And so you can check it out. Absolutely. So it's a truth or which, which where's the 2:12:20 spreadsheet? If you go to Truthcoin.info, or if you go to Truthcoin.com, it will redirect you to 2:12:25 Truthcoin.info. And then on the right, there's like a sidebar, or if you're on mobile at the 2:12:29 bottom, it links to my other sites I'll link together. Although I guess I haven't added 2:12:34 eCash.com, which I suppose I should get on that. But if bitcoinhivemind.com that's, that was 2:12:41 originally where the prediction market site, then I renamed and moved a bunch of stuff around, 2:12:46 which you should never do. Just, just PSA to anyone out there who's thinking, you just 2:12:51 think really hard about the name once and then never change it. That's my advice to everyone. 2:12:55 I was listening. Who cares? But yeah, if you go to bitcoinhivemind.com, that's like the prediction 2:13:02 market project. But then when it became an L2, and when it went back to being a Drivechain L2, 2:13:07 it got like re-renamed Truthcoin DC, Truthcoin drivechain. So that's, 2:13:12 but that's, that was my mistake. I learned the hard way. Just commit to the name and never back down. 2:13:22 Appreciate it. No one, no one wants a name. Do you think there's going to be like an 2:13:27 oracle Drivechain that's going to be able to connect to like EVM? 2:13:31 Yeah, the oracle thing is what Truthcoin DC is. It's like connect to everything though. It doesn't 2:13:36 have to be UTXO. Okay, cool. Yes. But again, it only has a limited scope, but it has a limited 2:13:46 scope to like the coolest stuff. So it's like, should we fire the ruling party? It gives you 2:13:51 basics of what Chainlink can do now. Okay. Yes. That's right. I mean, like people will always be 2:13:56 able to iterate on top of that. When people finally wrap their heads around it, I think they will. 2:14:00 Yeah. Cause that'll be, I think that'll be huge. Cause I think the number one problem, 2:14:04 all these proof of work tokens, coins, I guess, have faced over the last couple of years is every 2:14:09 time you do this, you're like reliant on exchanges, reliant on, on bridges. And if you don't play the 2:14:14 fraud game in this space, you end up on a little Island in the middle of the ocean by yourself, 2:14:19 just trading within your small community. And it takes dollars, lots of dollars to like fix 2:14:23 that problem and build those bridges. Right. So like if you had a system, like a Drivechain day 2:14:28 one or not day one, but as soon as you could, that was like sorting to peg and bring things 2:14:32 in from other chains and allow people to wrap stuff. I think that's going to be the thing that 2:14:37 makes you not reliant on like a Binance for example, or, you know, 2:14:42 Right. I agree. 2:14:48 What would a bridge look like from Ethereum into eCash world? 2:14:56 Well, I, you know, I'm not that interested in that, but you know, you could have like, 2:15:01 they have wrapped BTC. You could have like wrapped ETH on, but you know, there's another 2:15:06 thing is that we, I mentioned earlier, we had the ETH side, which was basically gas, but just as a 2:15:14 L2 drivechain. And we made that in 2023, but I kind of lost interest in it because I just, 2:15:22 I'm not interested in that kind of thing. Yeah. I think the, 2:15:26 the logarithmic market scoring rule. Yeah. No, but I think I'm looking, I'm looking at the 2:15:31 equation. It's just the log transformation to give you probability instead of price. 2:15:35 Yeah. It's pretty awful. The important thing is the account balance is easy to understand the, 2:15:41 and then you see why the account balance has to go up as people buy shares and has to go down 2:15:45 when people sell shares. And then the prices are like the derivative, the partial derivative, 2:15:50 if you know calculus. So that's why they're so, the prices are horrendous, but then you can kind 2:15:56 of see how the shares go in, the new account balance comes out, and then it's just subtraction 2:16:05 and a partial derivative. So that's the whole thing actually. So if you could wrap your head 2:16:12 around that, then you've got it, but it's really hard. It's so weird. And there's this liquidity 2:16:17 parameter, so. Yeah, that is, but that is just, that's not that important. That's just this thing 2:16:25 that basically scales the whole thing from dimes to dollars, basically. So that's not important. 2:16:31 Like traditionally, it's like the B replaced K, basically. 2:16:37 It's kind of, and it's not quite like a free parameter, but the idea is you have to pay the 2:16:42 initial liquidity when all the shares are zero is B log N. So that's how much you have to 2:16:49 sacrifice up front as the, you know, people just asked about that earlier, about the 2:16:57 subsidy. And so that's, so the subsidy goes up when B goes up, but then it's also the market 2:17:03 is more liquid. It takes more money to push the price around when B is high. 2:17:12 Okay. Yes. DJ. 2:17:15 I'm changing the subject. I'm raising my hand like a polite adult. 2:17:18 Okay. 2:17:19 So if your goal is like a user is in this kind of subject matter today, then like, I guess the 2:17:24 question that comes to mind is, are you going to have, we kind of talked about this a couple weeks 2:17:27 ago, but are you going to have ordinal aware wallets early on? Because that'll bring a bunch 2:17:31 of people. If you can also be sort of like, A, you're giving Bitcoiners Bitcoin, but now you're 2:17:37 telling people like, Hey, all of your duplicate, you know, ordinal tokens and ordinal assets, 2:17:42 things can just be ported over here. If you want to, here's a aware wallet. So you don't 2:17:47 burn all your shit while you're trying to get your coin split. 2:17:49 Is that going to be a thing or no, are you just going to kind of let someone else deal with that? 2:17:55 Well, maybe yes and no. I think if you point the ordinal software, because remember the L1, 2:18:01 the eCash L1, it basically is Bitcoin Core. So if you just tweak the ordinal aware software and 2:18:09 point it at eCash, all the ordinals will show up. 2:18:11 On your end, the QT wallet would automatically burn ordinals without knowing what they are, 2:18:16 because they're not on the chain. So the chain doesn't see them. 2:18:19 Yeah, we don't have a QT. I know what you mean though. The original was QT. 2:18:23 Maybe like approaching experts or something to integrate would be a way to do it, you know? 2:18:27 Like ordinals people use experts. 2:18:31 Yeah, I think, and we could put it in, because like I was trying to say, 2:18:34 Bitwindow is supposed to be more of the move fast, break things. It's just supposed to 2:18:38 accumulate a bunch of weird stuff. So we could put it in Bitwindow and then it would be fine. 2:18:43 The wallet is the BDK wallet, which is like a famous Bitcoin wallet that powers a lot of things. 2:18:52 Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they could add an ordinals aware situation. It's just that, 2:18:56 like if it's like a QT wallet, probably not, right? But if it's like a normal fucking like 2:19:02 edge wallet or something, like those are, they're not going to care. But if you get like an ordinals 2:19:07 aware wallet from day one, then you're onboarding people with zero Bitcoin that have a bunch of art, 2:19:12 you know? Like they're going to still use the chain, I think, and not have, like, I don't know, 2:19:16 but it feels just kind of like a waste not worrying about like those people. Because if we think, 2:19:20 oh, you're going to get 10,000, 20,000, 100,000 users just from giving them duplicate Bitcoin, 2:19:26 then like you probably get more users from ordinals, because like ordinals are making 2:19:29 out 50 plus percent of every transaction right now, even now when it's dead. So it's like, 2:19:34 where are the users really? Yeah, but I think that's the low part. I agree with you, 2:19:38 but I think it's just because BTC has decided that it doesn't want any users of any kind. 2:19:43 We're like currently, we're like killing all the users. So we're user hostile. You need a 2:19:52 thing called a lifeboat, you know? That'll go ahead. Exactly, yes. 2:19:56 And so more, the question is, like, why does Ethereum have so much higher transaction fees? 2:20:05 And why, but a lot of that is like stable coins. 2:20:11 But, yeah, I think it's bizarre. 2:20:13 I think we're hostile to users, we're hostile to innovation. 2:20:17 So that's the. That's a mistake. 2:20:22 And I don't know what will happen if we could just if we could just fix 2:20:27 that part of the culture where we're not hostile to users. 2:20:34 Then who knows how many other things would go right after that? 2:20:38 Hopefully, at least a few. 2:20:47 Yeah, I guess like in terms of I don't know if there are any current 2:20:52 chains that have like, I guess, scripting built in intently to like the project, 2:20:57 but that's why I was looking at adding like an elements or like a simplicity 2:21:02 sidechain, like just copying the Blockstream on 2:21:05 and adding new tree XO and stuff like that. 2:21:07 So. Yeah, I'm actually hoping that people will, of course, everyone hopes that 2:21:14 a bunch of developers will come and make a bunch of stuff, but I think some things 2:21:18 that are realistic are someone adds a we used to have something that we call 2:21:23 Bitcoin Core Plus or Bitcoin Core Extended or something. 2:21:26 I don't remember exactly what it's called, but this was like a fork of older 2:21:31 version of Bitcoin, but it had like CTV in it and it had like a cat. 2:21:35 And we could bring that back, or I'm sure I think that's the type of thing 2:21:40 that a bright Bitcoin hack like Jeremy Rubin, who's like super, super smart, 2:21:44 you know, they could make something like that, like by just looking at, 2:21:48 you know, the lay of the land, that would be a much better use of their time 2:21:52 than campaigning for CTV, which is, of course, never going to happen 2:21:55 just because Bitcoin culture is so screwed up. 2:21:58 So instead of completely wasting their time, you would have these 2:22:01 people like the big VM people, the all the people who love to hack on Bitcoin 2:22:05 script. These all these, I would imagine that those people would 2:22:12 they would have like just an L2, forget L1, they'll say here's our L2 2:22:17 is exactly the same as this L2 is exactly the same as Bitcoin Core, but it has 2:22:20 OP_CAT and it has OP_CTV and it has this long list of other stuff, you know, from 2:22:25 everyone. Have you guys heard of Alkanes yet? 2:22:27 Have you seen that thing? It's like on the ordinal side. 2:22:29 What's it called? Alkanes. 2:22:31 Alkanes. Basically, it's a WebAssembly code stored on an indexer. 2:22:36 And then the DeFi side of it is like if they're trying to be as L1 as they can 2:22:41 on Bitcoin, all things considered. 2:22:43 So they still have to use the indexer. 2:22:44 They still have to use it's sort of like an indexer sidechain, but it's not even 2:22:47 a chain. It's just like a fucking indexer. 2:22:48 Right. But basically, like it's WebAssembly code where you have approved, 2:22:53 like basically cloned versions of ETH contracts. 2:22:56 But you can prove how the WebAssembly code is allowed to be used. 2:23:00 And so maybe something like that could be a more on-chain, you know, because it 2:23:03 seems to be working. We have on-chain LPs on Bitcoin now. 2:23:06 I mean, on-chain as much as an indexers involved is. 2:23:08 But like it's pretty it's pretty close to I think where it can get on Bitcoin 2:23:12 side. So if you put something like that onto a more scalable thing like, you know, 2:23:16 a Drivechain or even just the L1 or fucking I think something like that would 2:23:20 be. I assume that that's using like Citria or something like that. 2:23:24 No, I don't think so, actually. 2:23:25 I think they just have built their whole stack from the bottom up, like everything 2:23:29 indexer software, all of it. 2:23:31 Like they don't rely on anybody else's shit except for the stuff they built. 2:23:34 Subfrost is the company. 2:23:36 They have a thing called Rebar, which is like how to manage the pools and like 2:23:39 backend and stuff. It's I don't know, it's it's everything. 2:23:41 Like I would look into it if you're if you're going down that route of how do we 2:23:45 do smart contracts better on L1, you know. 2:23:51 OK, let's Marcus is being brought up as a speaker, so hello. 2:23:57 Pretty late here, but one thing I was thinking is you mentioned stable coins, 2:24:03 right? But from what I've from what I know about Thunder, it 2:24:09 will only use eCash, right? 2:24:11 It cannot support other assets and you have this BitAssets for that. 2:24:16 But then wouldn't it be better for the Thunder, you know, other chains to be 2:24:20 multi-assets so they can support those kinds of because we know a large part of 2:24:25 fee revenue today on other chains comes from altcoins, right? 2:24:30 Well, from stable coins, I mean. 2:24:34 Yes, I've gotten this question before and it's a very good question and the answer 2:24:38 that I give, which I believe is that I don't know if there will be if the best 2:24:43 thing is for there to be topic specific chains. 2:24:47 And this would be like a BitAssets chain, a BitNames chain, et cetera. 2:24:51 I don't know if that's the best lay of the land, like a privacy chain, or if 2:24:55 instead it will be more like here is the small blockchain, like here's the 2:24:59 Ethereum, here's the Solana, here's like the base or something like that. 2:25:03 So I don't know if. 2:25:07 But I think a clue as to where the sidechains will appear is like where there's 2:25:11 large disagreements among people. 2:25:13 So like some people wanted small blocks, some people wanted large blocks. 2:25:17 So probably that would be like a stable split. 2:25:20 And then some people really want privacy by default, privacy, layer one, whatever. 2:25:25 Other people don't. 2:25:26 And there was even a Zcash bug like today or yesterday or something, which 2:25:32 highlights the trade off for that. 2:25:34 So I don't know how it will be chopped up and it's completely possible that the 2:25:39 Thunder chain or just the large blockchain, that one will do a lot of stuff like 2:25:44 extra stuff like assets and privacy. 2:25:47 Uh, so my answer is that I don't know how, how it will be chopped up, but doing 2:25:53 the sidechains by topic does have a lot of advantages for like how hard the 2:25:59 machine has to work and like, you can have like, you know, the node, it can 2:26:01 have like some kind of state, like it can very easily list, you know, all the 2:26:07 assets and make special stuff where you want to auction an asset or something. 2:26:12 So I don't know how it will all fall out completely. 2:26:16 A third possibility is that at the end of the day, there will just be like a 2:26:20 kind of liberal chain and like a concern. 2:26:22 I guess this is kind of like the Ethereum Solana, uh, split. 2:26:28 Uh, whereas people keep pushing the envelope and they'll say, okay, here's 2:26:31 a, here's an even weirder L2 and then here's, that's not weird enough. 2:26:36 Here's an yet another, even more strange. 2:26:40 So it's a good question. 2:26:41 It's particularly like, where will the assets, are they better done just like 2:26:45 on thunder as a kind of like counterparty on thunder or like whatever colored coins 2:26:50 on thunder, that type of thing, or should they be in their own chain? 2:26:55 Uh, I don't know, but we have both options, but it's a good question. 2:27:00 I have, I honestly, and I'm not even sure how we would know. 2:27:04 The only thing I got for you is this rule of thumb about when lots of people 2:27:08 disagree, probably that is a stable split partition, you know, into the 2:27:15 different L2s, but I have no idea. 2:27:17 Yeah, I could, it could shake out anyway. 2:27:20 I don't know. 2:27:22 Yeah. 2:27:22 Well, uh, I, myself, um, was, I think you saw it on, on Telegram, right? 2:27:28 I was thinking about making elements that, you know, the, the thing 2:27:31 liquid uses, uh, a drivechain. 2:27:34 And, uh, maybe the plates, if it, if that's possible, I don't know. 2:27:38 Um, but then that, that was the thing I was thinking. 2:27:43 Cause like, um, let's, let's keep, uh, the, the topic of stable coins and 2:27:49 stable coins, there's a lot of different use cases, uh, that they're used for. 2:27:53 So for one, they're used for payments, but they're also used for smart 2:27:57 contracts, DeFi kind of stuff. 2:27:58 So like, it would be interesting if, um, you want this liquidity to be shared and 2:28:06 all that, right. 2:28:07 But also Thunder is made for payments, right? 2:28:10 So that's why I think it would make sense to have a Thunder that supports that. 2:28:15 I'm basically rambling here because I know this is huge demand, right? 2:28:19 So, and what do we want is fees, especially in the beginning. 2:28:22 So the, the chain doesn't die off, right? 2:28:24 Um, so, so it is secure. 2:28:26 And I think one of the ways we could get a lot of fees is from stable 2:28:30 connectivity, be it's a stable coin payments or stable coin DeFi. 2:28:34 So I don't know. 2:28:35 That's funny. 2:28:40 Um, I, I agree. 2:28:40 No, stable coins are great. 2:28:42 And it's most of the stable coin activity is on, is on Ethereum and 2:28:47 Tron and not on BTC, even though this was originally a BTC project. 2:28:51 So perfectly fits the idea that everyone in BTC is over here 2:28:54 inventing all this useful stuff. 2:28:59 And then we just like, we just hand it, we just hand it over to these other 2:29:03 people in Ethereum. 2:29:05 And then we say in the community, in the BTC community, we say, 2:29:07 Oh, we never wanted that anyway. 2:29:10 Uh, I think those are just facade agents for real. 2:29:13 Let's be real. 2:29:13 Come on. 2:29:14 Everybody wants Bitcoin to be better. 2:29:15 If they care about people that are brain dead, think that they Bitcoin's 2:29:20 Oh, software. 2:29:20 Oh yeah. 2:29:21 That's the perfect software. 2:29:22 And it's, it's never going to need any adjustments because it's 2:29:24 just the perfect software, bro. 2:29:26 Like that's kind of true, but the, uh, I guess I looked up that one project 2:29:32 you were talking about and it's just like a large federation the way they're 2:29:35 doing it, but anyway, uh, if you are serious, Marcus Lowe, about doing the, 2:29:39 uh, liquid thing, I'm also kind of working on that, adding elements. 2:29:43 Um, 2:29:46 let's talk to them. 2:29:47 Yeah, you guys should. 2:29:51 Um, the element stuff, like, okay. 2:29:54 The, I remember it has like tree signatures. 2:29:57 Yeah. 2:29:57 Elements has a bunch of stuff. 2:29:59 Actually it does have confidential transactions. 2:30:02 It has assets. 2:30:03 It has, uh, op cats and op. 2:30:05 I think it has, um, some introspection stuff, other covenant stuff. 2:30:10 They have a bunch of cool stuff, you know? 2:30:12 Um, and it's, uh, yeah, I, I'm not sure that they have CTV, but I know they have 2:30:19 op cats. 2:30:20 My guess is that they don't, I have no idea at all, but my guess is, cause you 2:30:23 know, they have a little bit of a not invented here syndrome, so I guess they 2:30:28 don't have it, but maybe they have something else. 2:30:31 You know, you could probably add it. 2:30:33 I think there would definitely be a huge market for like a Bitcoin Core plus. 2:30:37 Yeah. 2:30:37 Yeah. 2:30:37 And I think if you didn't, 2:30:40 exactly. 2:30:41 You guys would be killer because all these other people who are doing like op 2:30:45 cat stuff and Jeremy Rubin or whatever, they would all be like, Oh, like, this 2:30:49 is like, at least, you know, cause like Bitcoin inquisition is one thing, but 2:30:53 then it would be like, Oh, there's this actual project that is like very like in 2:31:00 the Bitcoin vein, and then we could actually just launch it over here. 2:31:05 And it's kind of like, yeah, you can at least do something. 2:31:09 But so I think there's a lot of people who have like backed up ideas. 2:31:12 Like there's a lot of like Bitcoin project, people hacking on Bitcoin script 2:31:15 and stuff. 2:31:17 They would just think, well, this is the only game in town. 2:31:19 And then, and they may even, you know, they might think they might have other 2:31:21 thoughts too. 2:31:22 They might think like, well, my options are launch my own alt coin, which I don't 2:31:26 want to do. 2:31:27 Or they might think, well, what are we going to do with this project? 2:31:29 We're going to take it to like Ethereum. 2:31:30 So they think, no. 2:31:31 So actually I think this is a pretty attractive opportunity. 2:31:35 You guys would probably become popular. 2:31:38 And I don't know. 2:31:39 Uh, I don't know what your chances are with, you know, open sets of grants and 2:31:45 other stuff like that. 2:31:46 That's the other thing I wanted to bring up earlier is like, you know, you're in 2:31:49 competition with companies like Binance who are giving 30% of gas fees to devs and 2:31:53 shit like that. 2:31:54 Like, do you have anything in mind that's going to keep you competitive? 2:31:56 Cause right now you're going to have a really hard time finding people to care 2:31:59 dev wise, even if it's cool, you know, like it's just the money. 2:32:03 No, I'm not worried about that at all. 2:32:05 Um, it's a good question. 2:32:07 I've answered an FAQ and on the eCash.com what developers really want is the 2:32:12 freedom to build what they want to create. 2:32:15 And that's what they want more than anything else. 2:32:17 Of course, obviously they're like money. 2:32:20 Um, but you can look at, for example, the example of Satoshi who just, you know, 2:32:26 we've worked for free and released this project, but you can look at like Jeremy 2:32:28 Rubin and all these other people. 2:32:29 They work for years, years and years to months. 2:32:33 They put months and years perfecting it. 2:32:35 It's a creative act. 2:32:36 It's like Beethoven writing his ninth symphony or his other symphonies. 2:32:40 Um, you know, which are also good, but it's like, it's a creative act and you 2:32:46 have to wait until it's finished. 2:32:48 And so, you know, if it's any, what you've got is any good. 2:32:51 And then they want to be able to turn it on. 2:32:54 Um, and that's not the same thing as saying that developers don't need any money 2:32:58 because they're like monks. 2:32:59 That's not what I'm saying. 2:33:00 But what I am saying is that's what really motivates them. 2:33:02 And I'm also saying that it, since it's all open source, we want to be able to 2:33:06 just take anything that anything that's really good, you know, we can just take, 2:33:11 I hate to steal and I don't mean to disrespect anyone's, you know, I think 2:33:16 intellectual property is real. 2:33:17 Like it's sad when you see like a real comedian who steals jokes. 2:33:21 Like, I think that's awful. 2:33:22 That is some, I don't know if it's a crime or how it should work, but that is 2:33:26 terrible. 2:33:27 And they have their own culture to like enforce that, you know, about like if 2:33:31 someone is a known joke thief, you can look this up on YouTube. 2:33:33 It's interesting. 2:33:35 Um, so I don't want to just, but at the same time, you know, the Zcash people 2:33:40 made the orchard crate. 2:33:41 That's what we use in zSide. 2:33:42 I think that's what the bug was in. 2:33:44 So we'll have to look into that. 2:33:47 And you know, it doesn't have to be like, there are plenty of things people can do. 2:33:50 I could go into more detail about like developers add like a hidden little back 2:33:55 door that then they remove later when they get, you know, bought out or whatever 2:34:00 it is. 2:34:01 So you gotta have property rights are important. 2:34:04 But the idea with the development is like, we're not, we don't need to like hire a 2:34:09 huge team of people to create something new. 2:34:11 It's either take what works either, or I get it. 2:34:16 I agree. 2:34:18 Building it up against people like CZ and I'm gonna tell you from experience, what's 2:34:22 going to happen, right? 2:34:23 If you become successful, if big, if by the way, I'm sorry to say, respect you and 2:34:28 everything, but big, if you know who's going to come in, hijack every single fucking 2:34:32 thing you've done with more money behind it and take over. 2:34:35 And all of a sudden it's their idea. 2:34:37 It's their project. 2:34:38 Now, finance is going to do that to you. 2:34:40 So if you succeed, that's not necessarily the whole battle, you know, like you're 2:34:45 going to need to defend for 20 years, your ecosystem from vampiring and vampiring is 2:34:50 80% of this fucking ecosystem. 2:34:51 These days, people will look at your code, rewrite it, say they wrote it from scratch. 2:34:56 They will copy your exact ideas, rename them. 2:34:58 They will, they will literally do everything they can to vampire any success factor you 2:35:02 have. 2:35:02 Once you get up there, look at Bitcoin cash community and the stuff they face, it's 2:35:06 going to be the very same systems coming at you. 2:35:08 That's sort of what you're trying to avoid with the fork is like when you're adding 2:35:11 those same people. 2:35:12 Yeah, I get that. 2:35:13 That's true, but it's still going to be there, though, right? 2:35:15 Like, see, you're still going to want to take your shit, you know, it's tough out 2:35:19 there, but, you know, you have to keep in mind that I, what am I, what is my goal? 2:35:22 Actually, like I was trying the whole time to give BIP300 away for free to the BTC 2:35:29 community. 2:35:30 So if they didn't copy it, if people copy it and they say, aha, I'm going to show 2:35:33 him, I'm going to deploy my huge resources and reach into taking this idea. 2:35:40 And so, well, that was what actually I wanted the whole time. 2:35:42 But that's you as the idea guy. 2:35:44 Now you're a founder. 2:35:44 Now you're the guy. 2:35:45 Now everyone's relying on you. 2:35:47 They're going to come sue you. 2:35:48 They're going to be angry at you, Paul, if you fucking don't make us billionaires. 2:35:51 You know what I'm saying? 2:35:53 People have been angry at me in one way or another before, and it hasn't bothered me 2:35:58 as much as you might think. 2:35:59 But of course, you know, I prefer to make everyone happy. 2:36:03 I'm not worried about development. 2:36:05 I'm not worried about people stealing. 2:36:07 I actually know, I have a little bit of experience myself. 2:36:10 I could tell you from experience, once large amounts of money get involved, 2:36:14 productivity falls 99%. 2:36:18 Sometimes it becomes negative, where the more people involved, the more chaos is 2:36:22 produced. 2:36:23 And I think I know a little bit about how open source software is run successfully, 2:36:31 actually. 2:36:31 So I'm not that worried about that. 2:36:35 And even the outcome you painted, that's one that I, that I'm not worried about. 2:36:40 I want to bring about anyway. 2:36:42 So that's part of what I want. 2:36:44 Hell yeah. 2:36:44 Hell yeah. 2:36:45 So I would kind of enjoy that. 2:36:47 And I think that's fine. 2:36:48 Shout out Mark in the Garage down below. 2:36:50 Time chain pages. 2:36:51 Paul, please don't let at Decentralized on your stage. 2:36:54 He is a scene whore. 2:36:56 Yeah, that's sound. 2:36:57 That's very sound advice. 2:37:00 Paul, like, is the overarching goal then, like for you to change, like to change 2:37:05 Bitcoin more so than this project be successful? 2:37:08 Like, is like, is that really what you would like to get out of this? 2:37:13 It's a successful world. 2:37:15 I'm more worried about the world than I am about eCash or BTC. 2:37:20 So that's what I'm worried about. 2:37:22 Okay. 2:37:22 But you're not a very good, I'm already going to put in a vote to replace you with 2:37:26 like a Michael Saylor type. 2:37:27 Cause I need my bags. 2:37:28 I'm going to mind this shit. 2:37:29 I'm going to buy this shit, Paul. 2:37:30 And if you go, if this shit goes down 80% and your excuse is, well, Bitcoin added 2:37:34 300, we won. 2:37:36 I'm going to look at you cockeyed, you know, for 10 years, cockeyed. 2:37:41 No, I already thought of that. 2:37:42 Um, and I explained to the investors and they have a deal where I, you know, I 2:37:48 thought of that already. 2:37:49 So I, I understand that you appreciate the complexity of the situation, but, um, I 2:37:55 have, I got lots of special schemes for that. 2:37:59 I, you know, I planned this all out like a long time ago, like five, six, seven 2:38:05 years ago. 2:38:07 So just worry about yourself. 2:38:11 And if you want to hold a vote of no confidence. 2:38:13 So again, LayerTwo Labs just produces this software, the L2 software, which can 2:38:17 be used by any BIP300 L1. 2:38:22 Oh, so that's what layer two. 2:38:23 If someone else, let's say Bitcoin cash integrates, uh, does that give them the 2:38:28 ability to do better atomic swaps between Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash or no? 2:38:33 Oh, yes. 2:38:33 Interesting. 2:38:34 Okay. 2:38:34 Good to know. 2:38:36 They can also just take the zSide, you know, privacy L2 and the prediction 2:38:39 markets L2 was the logarithmic scoring rules and all the other bid names and 2:38:44 bad assets. 2:38:44 They can just take all that stuff. 2:38:45 So is BIP300 the best way to form, to forward the concept of atomic swaps? 2:38:51 Like, cause we don't like, I thought that's what I thought in 2017, 2018, I 2:38:54 thought we were going to get all these cool UTXO based atomic swap systems. 2:38:58 And we were, what was that wallet back then? 2:39:00 I think not box wallet, but something like some simple wallet was like, it was 2:39:03 just a Dex, uh, before there was Dex's of UTXO. 2:39:06 The atomic swaps is doing this thing coin shift, which I think is okay. 2:39:11 It's pretty good. 2:39:12 Yeah. 2:39:12 I think, uh, I don't think I've seen that. 2:39:13 I've had to look, but yeah, stuff like that. 2:39:15 I think it's where, where this, where this really shines, you know, like if we 2:39:18 can stop using exchanges as much because of some upgrade to UTXO model. 2:39:23 This is a coin shift. 2:39:25 You should check out a coin shift, but I think, I think it can replace exchanges. 2:39:29 But I think the idea is that as long as you have like a good enough fallback, 2:39:33 where, you know, like you don't need the exchange anymore, then the exchange is 2:39:37 kind of like, you know, extra on top, you know, but then it kind of reduces 2:39:42 their negotiating leverage. 2:39:44 That's the problem. 2:39:44 Like the reason like you guys are all bullish on stable coins is just because 2:39:47 we're so reliant on these centralized entities, I think, right? 2:39:50 There should be more reliance on Peggy things versus Bitcoin and Bitcoin going, 2:39:54 but we've gotten away from that because we started relying on centralized 2:39:57 entities, which relied on other centralized entities, which, you know, 2:40:00 like the, the pressure just goes from the banks all the way down to the exchanges. 2:40:04 And then we get assist ecosystem that doesn't look like what it was supposed 2:40:07 to be because of those incentive structures and like atomic swaps. 2:40:11 Undermine that entire structure incentive wise and let us just 2:40:14 peer to peer do shit again. 2:40:15 Yeah. 2:40:15 That allows you to swap things or don't move them amongst chains. 2:40:18 That was something I was asking JK earlier about this, this peg thing. 2:40:22 And he explained to me that there's absolutely no risk or a 2:40:25 need for a standard like IBC. 2:40:27 Can you help me better understand that? 2:40:29 Like how you're able to peg out risklessly? 2:40:31 Isn't there supposed to be a mining vote or something like that? 2:40:34 That happens. 2:40:36 You're talking about BIP300, the coins move where there's no, there's no people involved. 2:40:40 It's a BIP300 does deposits in the withdrawals. 2:40:43 Now there is, um, then the L1 full nodes, not looking at what happens with the withdrawal. 2:40:49 So you don't see what happens there. 2:40:51 So it can be, but the, the idea is this, all the L2s are merged mind. 2:40:56 So the mind from the miner's point of view, these are just like factories that just print money. 2:41:01 You know, these are magic money tree. 2:41:03 The money is just like coming off of them for free, passively doing nothing. 2:41:07 So, uh, the idea is that miners, they automatically, they process the deposits and the withdrawals correctly. 2:41:16 Now, if the minor intervene, let me just last sentence. 2:41:20 If the miners intervene, they can screw up the withdrawals. 2:41:23 But the idea is why would they do that? 2:41:25 Because these are just things that just bring money for them. 2:41:28 So it depends on what's transaction fees. 2:41:30 So there's some math on this and the original November, 2015 post. 2:41:35 And then since I got done, like, you know, you do a little napkin math and see, well, what kind of fees are we looking at in the real world and how many coins would be on the chain, you know? 2:41:46 And so then how many, you know, how bad could the withdrawals get, et cetera. 2:41:50 And again, it comes out like pretty fine, pretty well. 2:41:53 I think, you know, where it's like the amount of money they earn greatly outstrips the amount of money they could miss withdrawal. 2:42:02 So then it just seems like it would work to me. 2:42:05 Now there's no guarantee that it will work. 2:42:07 It could fail just like anything else. 2:42:09 I think actually a lot of stuff that people think works today, such as Bitcoin lightning network, et cetera, et cetera. 2:42:16 I think a lot of this stuff basically has already failed. 2:42:18 So there's a lot of stuff today that people put a lot of time and energy in that I think is substantially worse than this idea. 2:42:25 So you should just check it out for yourself and see what you think of these numbers and the logic of the whole thing. 2:42:31 But yeah, that's the idea that the miners vote, but kind of if they just leave it on autopilot, it will work. 2:42:36 They have to like manually like screw everything up in order to just screw up the withdrawals. 2:42:43 The deposits always work because just because of the way the L2s work, the deposits will always work perfectly. 2:42:49 The withdrawal calculation, if they're able to steal a billion dollars and sacrifice a million per month, then opportunistically they may do so. 2:42:59 But in the case where they're invested in the success of the Drivechain, like you would you'd expect them to act economically rational. 2:43:09 Why in design? 2:43:11 Why is that? 2:43:12 Why go that way rather than a cryptographic proof? 2:43:17 Well, actually, I think the cryptographic proof doesn't add very much because the cryptographic proof, if you think about it like this, let's say that instead of thinking about it in terms of this could never, ever break versus something that could break. 2:43:33 If you if you frame it that way, then obviously the cryptographic way looks better. 2:43:40 But what if you framed it a different way? 2:43:42 Let's just say you frame it. 2:43:43 There's two methods. 2:43:45 One, the 51% hashrate actually hates. 2:43:48 They don't like it at all. 2:43:50 And they don't like it. 2:43:51 They hate it. 2:43:52 Of course, in the middle, they could be indifferent. 2:43:54 But then there's no that they could. 2:43:56 They really love it. 2:43:56 They love that it's there. 2:43:57 Okay, so in this conception, the one where they love it, it's everything's fine because it will work and then where they hate it, actually, the cryptographic one is kind of also doomed because the miners could maybe censor the miners can always censor the deposits or the withdrawals, and they can in the case of the lightning network, they could do all kinds of other interference, you know, it's much easier for 51% hashrate to steal from the lightning network from a lightning channel than it is from the cryptographic proof. 2:44:27 L2 drivechain. 2:44:28 Yeah, I think I'd better understand actually matrix like having one where, yeah, the like the economic rationale there could make more sense in the actual operation. 2:44:42 As soon as there's a bug in the cryptographic one, well, someone's going to exploit it and take all the coins. 2:44:47 But actually, what if there's a bug in something that everyone is enthusiastic about it working? 2:44:53 Yeah, rely on the human rely on the malware, operate like the human malwares that we're probably gonna act in our own self. 2:45:00 Yeah, exactly. 2:45:01 So they're gonna think, well, wait a minute, I noticed this bug, and then they'll just kind of fix it quietly. 2:45:06 They won't want to exploit it. 2:45:08 You know what I mean? 2:45:08 It's like, it's like, we just think so that's better. 2:45:11 Actually, I think that's almost better. 2:45:14 Not necessarily. 2:45:15 But it's also happens to be way simpler. 2:45:19 Like BIP300 is just this counter that counts like 13,000 over and over. 2:45:24 So it's not really that complicated. 2:45:27 And whereas these other things are like the ZK, blah, blah, blah. 2:45:31 And it's kind of like, and we just saw with there's an orchard, there's a inflation bug in Zcash. 2:45:36 So yeah, we've seen like countless, quote unquote, safe bridges, whether it's like a multisig or some other tech, lose hundreds of millions of dollars. 2:45:46 So I don't disagree with you there. 2:45:49 Completely agree. 2:45:50 Yeah, I'd rather bet on something that's a little more transparent, that people can kind of figure out, okay, this is how it's supposed to work and why. 2:45:58 And so I actually think that's a little bit better. 2:46:00 Obviously, I would prefer something where it could never break, and etc, etc. 2:46:05 But I actually think this is a perfectly fine set of trade offs, especially because in a world, you can imagine a world where the cryptographic thing doesn't pay. 2:46:16 Like, imagine you have a cryptographic thing that works perfectly. 2:46:19 No one can ever steal from it or interfere with it in any way. 2:46:23 And it doesn't charge transaction fees. 2:46:26 Versus MergeMind L2 drivechain. 2:46:29 Well, in the MergeMind L2 Drivechain, the miners are getting lots and lots and lots of free money that they wouldn't have gotten before. 2:46:37 And whereas the cryptographic thing, they aren't getting any money. 2:46:41 So, you know, it's kind of like, maybe that's actually worse, because, and even if that such a thing like can't really exist, because you need transaction fees to stop people from flood, because of course, the transaction fee is also like the cost of DDoSing and flooding the network. 2:46:55 So it can't literally be zero. 2:46:58 But I'm just trying to paint as an example here. 2:47:00 If you had the, the miners would want to maybe attack and destroy the cryptographic where they would say, well, this, you're not allowed to use this one, because we prefer you to use the one that pays us the transaction fee. 2:47:13 That's kind of an extreme case. 2:47:14 But that actually is the case that like, for example, the lightning network would be in in the long run, if it actually worked, lightning doesn't really work. 2:47:21 So it doesn't matter. 2:47:22 But like, if you made it to 8 billion users, then there'd be all these people transacting on the lightning network, the LSPs would be collecting hundreds of billions of dollars in transaction fee revenues per year, and the miners would not, but the miners would be thinking, hey, we are the ones that make the channels, we make the blocks, the L1 blocks and the L1 channels that make all this possible. 2:47:42 And so yeah, like in the optimistic case, greed reinforces one while it destroys the other. 2:47:49 And in the in the less optimistic case, it's a low value Drivechain, and it probably doesn't matter. 2:47:54 That's exactly right. 2:47:57 So I also think like, if it's not, if people aren't paying transaction fees to use it, and if it's not like contributing to the Bitcoin exchange rate, well, then maybe it shouldn't exist at all. 2:48:07 And maybe that's a clue that no one should be, you know, the developers, the users, the miners, no one should really be paying very much attention to this. 2:48:15 So I kind of took it, I took it as a kind of assumption that people would be using it for transaction fees, and that the miners would be happy to have it around. 2:48:25 And so I've kind of built it around those assumptions. 2:48:28 And then once you do that, this is like the cheapest, easiest, most efficient, like kind of like easiest to follow. 2:48:35 Like this is like a very, very healthy design. 2:48:40 And then if those aren't true, then it's not garbage. 2:48:42 The garbage removal is kind of like just an added byproduct, I guess. 2:48:48 Like, OK, what about. 2:48:50 Right. I prefer I get deleted. 2:48:52 OK, what about like more advanced things that we see on some other chains? 2:48:57 Like how would like they can talk to each other in this way where risk is minimized, as you explained? 2:49:03 What about things like composability, doing something on one Drivechain to affect accounts on another block and another Drivechain, for example? 2:49:14 Well, you could have such a thing. 2:49:17 And what it would probably be is you'd have L1, then you have a bunch of L2s like ABC. 2:49:25 Then you probably make yet another thing. 2:49:26 This is like what CoinShift is. 2:49:28 CoinShift takes like it says this is an L2 with like several different L1s that it is aware of, not that it is like merge mined with or something. 2:49:39 But it's like you could also do this where you have another L2, like L3 or something that's like aware of like a whole family of different L2s and L1s. 2:49:47 And as long as you this is tricky to do, but it is it is possible. 2:49:52 And that's what CoinShift is an example of that. 2:49:55 So you'd make like a new thing that's like kind of it just covers them all at the same time. 2:50:02 And then it knows about any as soon as something happens in one of those networks, it knows about it. 2:50:08 And it can like, you know, have one giant. 2:50:10 And they're all synced, right? 2:50:15 You don't have an async situation between drivechains. 2:50:18 Or do I not understand that bit correctly? 2:50:21 Well, I think every blockchain could be reorg, so I don't know the extent to which I would describe it either way, you know, right, because they are becoming finalized over time. 2:50:38 So I'm not sure if I would explain it that way, but it's possible. 2:50:45 Yeah, I mean, one thing is that like, listen, think about like something like Edge Wallet or Cake Wallet, like that's a piece of software that has, it's aware of many, many, many blockchains, so that you can see that that's possible. 2:51:00 Or Jax, they used to have that, you know, these multi-coin wallets, so you could build something like that, and then you could build something that also is a blockchain. 2:51:31 Okay, this has been really, really great. 2:51:33 Supposed to be from 2 to 4, now it's 2 to 4.50. 2:51:36 So I think we should end it here, even though it was really fun. 2:51:40 Oh, wait, we got one person. 2:51:42 And Ovega, OG Vega. 2:51:46 Maybe we can, or maybe they can come next week, because we do them every week. 2:51:56 And I don't know if they could join in time, but probably not. 2:52:02 Okay, but this will be posted. 2:52:05 The recording will be on YouTube. 2:52:07 We're starting up our YouTube channel. 2:52:10 It's going to put some cool stuff on there. 2:52:12 And all the recordings will be on YouTube, and we can do this every Wednesday. 2:52:16 And maybe we'll do it on a different day if someone really, really, really wants to join. 2:52:19 They can't join on Wednesday for some reason. 2:52:22 We'll move it around. 2:52:23 But this was really good. 2:52:25 Thanks to everyone who participated and asked a question or comment. 2:52:29 So thanks very much. 2:52:31 And I'm going to end it here. 2:52:33 Thanks. 2:52:34 Watch the recordings on YouTube or other places. 2:52:37 So thanks a lot, everyone. 2:52:39 See you guys next week. 2:52:41 Thanks. 2:52:43 Thank you.
