1:00 Okay, I hope you all enjoyed that music from Mario 64, but I only have a shorter amount 1:10 of time today, but I made a list of cool stuff to talk about, well, sort of. 1:17 So I'm just going to hit this list and then if anyone wants to talk, they can come up. 1:21 So come up if you want. 1:23 First, we announced this bug bounty. 1:27 It's going to be $100,000 total over the whole summer, and I will massively increase it if 1:33 there's lots and lots of bugs being found, because the purpose is to basically try to 1:38 find them all, at least in the base package of software. 1:44 So yeah, I think some people have asked like, oh, do I just submit the bug as soon as I 1:47 find it? 1:48 I think that's probably a good idea. 1:51 And ideally for you is you find a bug that no one else has found. 1:57 And again, if I find many bugs, we will massively increase the reward. 2:02 So we'll see how we do with just what we're paying out now. 2:06 And for details of that, go to, well, I'll just scroll back in my tweets until I link 2:13 to it. 2:16 Then we have this thing, SimplePool. 2:18 Now this is only just started, okay? 2:20 This is brand new. 2:22 This is wet concrete, okay? 2:24 But this is an open source pool, because the question is, why isn't the pool software open 2:28 source? 2:29 I mean, we don't want, we want it to be this open source library that anyone use, not some 2:32 creepy private thing. 2:35 I think that's a no-brainer. 2:38 Now someone, of course, there's always one or two snarky people replying. 2:43 And they said, oh yeah, we'll give you a free Bitaxe and you can increase the hash rate of 2:46 the pool. 2:47 The pool software is not supposed to be an actual replacement for Foundry and whatever. 2:55 I explained that in the post, but people didn't understand it. 2:58 So the pools, the Foundry and whatever, they're a brand. 3:03 And they extract a small little fee from being reputable. 3:09 And that's how they make their money. 3:12 And this doesn't change that at all. 3:13 I'm just trying to make it so that the actual software that they use to select transactions 3:20 to put in blocks is something that we all know about. 3:25 And I think actually we can solve a bunch of unrelated problems too, but we can, I think 3:29 we saw like Relay and some other things, because Relay right now is done in a kind of communist 3:33 way, where it's kind of just Relay for free out of the goodness of your heart. 3:39 And that's actually not that great. 3:41 And that has led to all kinds of confusion, such as that led to the difference between 3:44 the standardness rules and the validity rules, which has been a huge distraction, a waste 3:51 of everyone's time. 3:52 This is kind of like the opposite of what Luke is trying to do with BIP-110 in the sense 3:58 that we'll just aggressively revenue maximize. 4:01 And so we will not be judgmentally stopping people from making money, which is sort of 4:09 what they're doing. 4:10 And we can talk about BIP-110 if you want, but okay. 4:16 And one thing I wanted to mention is should we change the format and maybe next week we'll 4:19 do Clubhouse? 4:20 I don't know. 4:21 But if you have a thought, then come up on stage and let me know. 4:26 Some people wanted to ask about the Solana thing. 4:29 I've shared already the plan, like about how people can have fun with the Solana token, 4:35 redeem it for real eCash. 4:38 And I shared it with like five, maybe four or five people, maybe five. 4:43 And if they haven't told you, then they have permission to repost my, I made like a tiny 4:48 spreadsheet. 4:49 It's very small and they can just post it if they want. 4:53 So it's a pretty simple plan and I think it kind of works for everyone, neutralizes the 4:59 chaos of this and harnesses it for a fun way because, well, you'll see when you read it. 5:06 Okay. 5:07 I wanted to make a note about the eCash brand, which is that we intend to put out 5:16 valuable true information, useful information, all of which 100% true. 5:24 We intend to put that on eCash.com, but to some extent, well, we need a lot of stupid 5:32 people to bet against. 5:34 So we don't necessarily want it to be too obvious how good of an idea that we're doing. 5:41 So we will be trying and we will be trying to defend the brand and explain the brand. 5:50 I think people are still talking a little bit too much about the whole take Satoshi's 5:53 coins, but I think we want it to be misunderstood slightly to some tiny extent. 6:02 Okay. 6:03 And Lightning, yeah, today, we, you know, again, Lightning has come up. 6:09 I consider Lightning to be a totally settled issue. 6:12 Every time I talk to someone in the real world, they seem to agree with me. 6:16 Maybe, you know, maybe I'm more intimidating than I expect in the real world. 6:20 People are afraid to disagree with me to my face. 6:23 But then on Twitter, you have, you know, what looked like the dumbest people in the world. 6:28 And then they say like, silly things like, oh, does it even matter if Lightning scales 6:34 or does it matter if it's custodial? 6:38 The answer is yes, because it's not Lightning. 6:42 And then other people are confused about like if one leg of the trade, like if you make 6:46 a Lightning transaction and something else does the heavy lifting, some custodial service 6:50 does the heavy lifting for that. 6:53 Does that still count as a Lightning transaction? 6:55 And the answer is no, because it was all done. 6:59 Because it was, without the custodial thing, it would not have been possible. 7:07 So it would have failed if it, so that thing is the linchpin that holds it all together. 7:11 But a lot of people don't even really, I don't know what to deal, how to deal with these 7:15 people because a lot of the Lightning experts, you know, they agree with me and they've already 7:19 moved on to the next thing. 7:21 So I don't know. 7:22 I did want to tell one story about, okay, this is a story that, you know, if you're 7:26 into Lightning and because we have to talk about the people who say, oh, I used Lightning 7:32 yesterday and I saw it work. 7:35 And I have a little story that I sometimes tell about, this is about Theranos, the fake 7:39 blood company that ended up being a huge scam and a disaster and something that everyone 7:42 regretted associating with. 7:45 Theranos, look it up. 7:49 This young man, Tyler Shultz, he was working there. 7:53 He's the grandson of George Shultz, who's a famous politician, among other things, on 7:59 the board of Theranos. 8:01 And the grandfather helped him get the internship. 8:05 He knew that when people came in to get their blood tested with Theranos, they would come 8:11 in, they would prick their finger to get the blood drawn and they would put it in the Theranos 8:16 machine and then they would take them on a tour. 8:19 They would take these people, you know, the patients in theory, they would take them on 8:24 a tour of the lab and then while they were on the tour of the lab, out of the room, people 8:29 would come in, open up the Theranos device, take out the blood capsule, whisk it away 8:35 into a different room, dilute the blood and then run it on the traditional Siemens technology 8:40 that had nothing to do with Theranos at all. 8:44 And then they would print out the results and they would make it appear as though this 8:48 was from, this is exactly how lightning basically is. 8:53 But this would be very frustrating for Tyler when he would try to blow the whistle on this 8:56 whole operation being fake, is people, such as his grandfather, would say, no, I've seen 9:01 the machine work, they tested my blood with it, I saw it with my own two eyes. 9:06 What they saw was a hoax, everything they saw was fake. 9:11 Now lightning is a little bit more real than this, but not very much so, not significantly 9:17 so, because ultimately at the end of the day, it relies on a lot of heavy lifting done by 9:23 stuff that has nothing to do with lightning and if this stuff went away, the lightning 9:26 user experience would be unbearably bad and it certainly won't work at scale, which was 9:33 the whole point in the first place. 9:36 So I just had to react to this whole, because it's a very, very common thing. 9:40 People think, oh, I used it myself and it's the perfect overlay. 9:44 I also made the metaphor, I was talking to Mr. Hoddle, I use the metaphor of a magician. 9:51 If anyone wants to just interrupt by coming up and asking about anything, but yeah, I 9:54 got like one or two notes and a metaphor of a magician, it's like, oh, I saw the magician 10:02 saw the lady in half and I saw it with my own two eyes and it's like, well, that's not, 10:09 it doesn't mean anything, you know, it's like you, part of the fun of seeing a magician 10:13 is that, you know, the magic is fake, but you're still kind of thinking like, how did 10:16 they do that? 10:18 And that's the opposite of how it is with lightning, where they lie to you and they 10:22 just say they misrepresent something as actually being due to HTLC technology. 10:30 And that's not true at all, but now we all have to listen to it. 10:34 So that's on my list or whatever. 10:37 So one other thing, in addition to, should we change up the format? 10:39 Second concept is who, who do we think are like top hater is, who is a top hater that 10:44 we could actually get to come in? 10:46 You know, someone who's actually worth talking to. 10:50 We have one or two haters who are just like, you know, anonymous bot accounts have 13 followers 10:54 and they're just like fake people, obviously. 10:57 But who, who could we actually get, you know, maybe Pleditor or something. 11:02 I don't know if he speaks on camera or on whatever. 11:06 But the point is, who could we actually get and should we then collectively like request 11:13 them to come next week or something like that? 11:16 Or should we, I was thinking also we could train like an AI bot. 11:20 Someone could train and operate an AI bot and they could say, answer how Pleditor would 11:24 answer. 11:25 We can have Vlad or whoever, just pretend to be the person. 11:31 This is a funny idea I had. 11:34 Again, if you want to come up, just request. 11:38 Otherwise I'll keep going down my list of stuff. 11:43 We have a lot of stuff to announce. 11:44 I'm not going to announce it all here. 11:45 I'm just saying in general, lots of stuff has been happening. 11:50 Lots of people have joined, lots of people are very interested in what we're doing. 11:54 The round, we're going to close the round. 11:57 It has basically sold out and so it'll have to be closed and then the price will have 12:03 to be increased for the final round. 12:06 So there's been like an overwhelming number of messages and people asking me to, you would 12:13 think it would like die down a lot, which it has, because there are actually so many 12:16 people had messaged me last month that I missed a bunch of messages and I kind of told them, 12:20 well, we'll just wait until I'm back in the news and then I'll message you back. 12:25 But really a lot of stuff is happening and we have a lot of just content to push out 12:30 and we have a lot of actual substance to push out. 12:32 So I have another note here about the Bitcoin SV people, because for some reason we've got 12:39 a lot of Bitcoin SV people who are very welcome, of course, and we have many fans, actually, 12:44 we have a lot of people who are supporters and even investors who are from BSV world, 12:51 but we also have some haters. 12:53 And I just wanted to point out that the BSV people, like the Drivechain is actually what 12:59 the BSVers think that BSV is. 13:06 And so I think when the BSVers finally figure that out, they will actually become big fans, 13:12 but I don't know how long that will take. 13:14 I hope it doesn't take that long, because the BSV philosophy is kind of like you can 13:20 use unlimited data on the chain and downloading is optional and then miners pick up the tab. 13:26 And no matter how expensive it is, and then we can all free ride on the miners using SPV. 13:31 Now that's very similar to Drivechain, Drivechain says you can use more data whenever 13:36 you want and you can download it optionally in the form of choosing which full nodes, 13:40 if any, you download. 13:42 And then the node runners, the L2 node runners, they pick up the tab. 13:47 But not if it's too expensive. 13:50 And we can all free ride on the nodes using SPV. 13:53 So it's very, very similar. 13:54 But the problem is just, you know, what if something's too expensive? 13:57 And in the BSV world, if the nodes become too expensive, the whole network just dies 14:02 off. 14:03 Or they do mental gymnastics to try and say like that, there's nothing bad about that 14:07 or it is bad, but it's not too bad or whatever. 14:12 And then the Drivechain world is perfectly, perfectly fine. 14:14 It's totally immune, 100% immune to having L2s that have infinite cost because those 14:20 die off, but the rest of them survive. 14:23 So the whole Bitcoin SV mistake is this idea that there's nothing bad about increasing 14:29 the block size at all, which is false. 14:33 And the Drivechain idea just says, well, if you increase the block size, some good 14:37 things will happen, some bad things will happen, and you can each make a trade off and they 14:42 can all just compete. 14:46 So I think that's what the Bitcoin SV people actually want. 14:51 If they knew what they wanted, that's what they would want. 14:55 So yeah, that's just like some of my list of things. 14:58 I actually have more on my list, but I think we should talk about... 15:03 whatever people want to talk about and it's 515 I don't have that much time 15:11 today it is a shame that well yeah usually these these really get going 15:19 very well and we start off in like the first few minutes are are slow and then 15:27 it and then it really picks up and then by the end we can't we can't escape on 15:31 time so but yeah I just thought I would give a monologue boring monologue here 15:38 we have someone we have a mr. Marcus mm-something one and then when you 15:49 prove people it takes like 20 seconds for them to pop up but I have a yes 15:56 hello can you hear me well I can hear you yes okay so first of all drive 16:05 chains are really nice you know all that stuff and yes you have been right and 16:11 almost everything which is really sad to say as a Bitcoin maximalist myself and so 16:18 I have a few points to say here so first of all you you talk a lot of bad stuff 16:26 about lighting which I kind of agree I just don't think you're like lighting 16:32 can be useful for some stuff you know I think it can be used for like 16:35 pre-confirmations you know and instant confirmation stuff and I'm also cross 16:40 chain settlement so I think your rhetoric of like Oh lightning is 16:44 completely useless is not a good rhetoric you know that's one thing do 16:54 you agree with that well okay first of all thank you for saying the drive 17:00 chains are great and that I'm often right about everything so and then also 17:03 you thanks for saying that you mostly agree you often agree with what I'm 17:06 saying but lightning okay I agree that sometimes like okay what I'm trying to 17:14 achieve with lightning is to me whether or not something has become a cult is 17:21 much more important it's like it practically trumps epistemology you know 17:26 what I mean because once the cult takes over then everything is a lie and that's 17:32 kind of where we are with lightning unfortunately so at this point it's like 17:38 even even when I had so years ago like I'm talking like 2020 or 2021 I had like 17:43 a tamer critique of lightning and people said the same thing they said you can't 17:47 criticize lightning at all no one will want no one wants to hear that no one 17:50 wants no one will pay attention to you you won't get like invited back or 17:53 whatever so people have been saying that for a while maybe unreasonably lightning 18:00 does do instant confirmation but that's I'm not actually sure that it's lightning 18:08 that does that so to me even I draw a box around payment channels because 18:13 lightning because there's a big difference between to me there's a big 18:16 difference and to most people there's no difference at all because they just think 18:18 custodial lightning or whatever but there's the bi-directional payment 18:23 channels where each person has like funded the channel and then they adjust 18:28 and then they settle up and this is only two people there's actually kind of 18:33 a big difference between that that already existed before the lightning 18:35 network was a thing and then the lightning network was like we can have 18:39 HTLC's and we can use the six degrees of separation Kevin Bacon concept or 18:46 whatever erdos number or whatever it is to make the all the payment channels 18:52 work together in this network and it's the idea of the network that I just 18:56 think is not true because yeah it tends to centralize which is fine to be honest 19:04 like we have to have companies do stuff you know that's fine we have to build 19:10 trust in some places it's fine and we need isn't that really not that fine I 19:15 mean I agree with you I'm fully in favor of companies and brands and all this 19:20 stuff I just think that lightning is represented as the cypherpunk technology 19:26 where it's like code is law and yeah but today's not understand most people 19:30 are like a story of lightning that that's a lie yeah I understand and so 19:35 what I mean like if I so people do primal to primals app on Nostr they 19:38 both use primal custodial lightning there's no lightning transaction there's 19:42 no and this is a little lightning icon now what about if I send lightning to 19:47 you and without a custodial person along the way we would not have had enough 19:54 liquidity but you and me are running we have some we have one channel somewhere 20:02 is used that's a real lightning channel but the but the route would not have 20:06 completed do you consider that without without going through a custodial 20:10 lightning hop does that count as lightning to you 20:16 well I don't think I really care because the the main point I think is is useful 20:23 is instant confirmations right this is a really good payment experience so as 20:28 long as we can get some type of that and I know you don't need lighting itself 20:32 you can do that otherwise like people do those like pre confirmations with 20:37 stakers and other chains like as long as we can get some form of that I'm fine 20:41 but but also the thing is that even lighting can be better done on a drive 20:48 chain you know because there's a bunch of like opcodes that people want and 20:53 whatever and also just you know having more space so that you can because 20:59 there's a in the paper there's the thing where you have to have like a hundred 21:03 times more block space so everyone could import you know so like even drive 21:08 chain could help lightning you know so that's the thing which is one of the 21:15 reasons why I don't understand why lightning people don't go rooting for a 21:19 Drivechain I can't understand that because it is a cult and it has nothing 21:23 to do with the technology or truth it unfortunately the termites have spread 21:29 and they've eaten all the wood and now I think it's like unfixable that's the 21:35 problem so that's part of it is as like a test to see who in lightning world 21:39 still has a brain the answer is depressingly few people and so you're 21:45 right that lightning would work better on Drivechain for a lot of reasons more 21:49 block space and then you know there's even I think any prep out is mentioned 21:53 also in the lightning whitepaper without the current is the way that lightning 22:00 networks originally designed in the way is mostly used when it's used at all 22:02 which is not even that often because custodial lightning is really what's 22:06 used but the design is that you have to track you have to keep this giant list 22:10 this growing list of of potentially like you have to check for someone trying to 22:18 screw you over and then pull a trigger on this if you see them so you have to 22:23 have this list or just eats up more and more RAM until you refresh the channel 22:27 and so that get that all that could be fixed and but you know it's kind of all 22:32 moot point because Barack a creator of our he was like you know he's like very 22:38 very smart he's very very skilled and he's very good with Bitcoin Bitcoin 22:43 script and he's very good with lightning and when he invented arc he was like 22:47 well you know I was trying to make lightning work and it doesn't work so 22:51 but even this doesn't matter like I've compiled tons and tons of quotes that 22:55 people have said on stage these are from like elite lightning devs and like none 23:01 of them are out of context or anything where they say it doesn't basically it's 23:04 not going to work out so but but the problem is that everyone the problem is 23:09 not this has nothing to do with technology is become a it has become a 23:13 you know it's you can't separate lightning from the propaganda and no one 23:18 wants to hear any bad news about BTC even if that is necessary for the good 23:24 news to come out like even if it's actually good news in disguise the whole 23:29 lightning thing has become basically a a giant dunce cap that is discrediting 23:36 BTC and so that's that's the thing is you can only have any credibility or any 23:40 kind of virtue or integrity if you just refuse to put up with it at this point I 23:44 think okay so look what parts of lightning do you think can be salvaged 23:51 now because I think state channels can be a good idea now well it's not that I 24:02 think that again it's not that I think that lightning like I can imagine in 10 24:07 years people using HTLC's and as you mentioned it's kind of nice when you 24:14 know you can go cross-chain and you can like so that's kind of cool yeah the 24:21 experience I want is like you can have a wallet which is let's say a blue 24:26 wallet green wallet kind of thing and you can pay an invoice and I don't care 24:31 where what Drivechain you're at you can be in Thunder you can be in I don't know 24:35 zSide you can be anywhere and I can pay an invoice from anywhere to 24:41 anywhere you know that's the kind of the kind of future I want and I think 24:45 something like lightning can enable it maybe not well probably not the light 24:52 you have today but something that involves a writing network a routing 24:56 network and state channels you know 25:01 okay I think you know honestly though this is my real thought is well okay my 25:08 real thought is like well when she once you get because you said that you like 25:12 instant confirmations and you like cross-chain and my thought is once we 25:19 get instant confirmation it's a transaction settlement won't you just 25:25 drop lightning at that point because why why deal with all this other stuff that's 25:29 not real about the channels and the liquidity and being online to to receive 25:34 and signing what kind of pre confirmations are you thinking about 25:42 well I have a bunch of ideas I was actually going to so the thing is now 25:46 I've been I'm losing a lot you know I don't have as much free time as I used 25:52 to have so now it's a shame because I would like normally I would be like like 25:56 to investigate but now I have like lots of people talking to me and asking me 25:59 for things but I was thinking about putting I have compiled a document of 26:04 instant settlement like instant finality ideas and I was working on a few days 26:14 ago and it's somewhere on this computer actually but I was thinking about 26:17 publishing it all and then putting some kind of contest to see if people have 26:22 any new ideas and normally I would like just try to like look into it myself but 26:29 I'm actually just very low on time at the moment but I think this is this 26:33 would help okay so like people have proposed several different types of ideas 26:37 you as you probably know so one is like it just from a technical point of view 26:43 it's very easy to prove guilt because the the the only reason that zero conf 26:52 is not secure is because you could sign to transactions right I hope everyone is 26:59 following this this part is not that hard to hopefully so like if you could 27:03 only sign once with your private key then everything would be fine and there 27:09 would be no need for okay so what does that mean well what it means is if you 27:13 in order to exploit zero conf and defraud someone you have to sign the 27:16 transaction then you the owner of the key you have to sign the second thing so 27:21 one idea that a lot of people had is hey we can make it so that if anyone ever 27:25 publishes both of them like if you assemble them together and say look this 27:30 guy signed twice he signed twice and he didn't like add like a flag like for you 27:37 know like for like replaced by fee or some legitimate way you could easily 27:41 rope that off you can say well look then this proves that this person did the 27:46 wrong thing and then people have suggested something you'd have bonds 27:50 that like where miners can collect like you put like a $200 bond and then 27:54 everything you buy that's less than $200 the merchant actually has a lot of 27:58 assurance that if they reference this bond somehow in the transaction then now 28:07 something that I always bring up and it's a long-winded speech but actually a 28:13 lot of things don't need zero calm so even though it is a good experience most 28:19 things don't but yeah I understand I agree that the user experience is going 28:22 to kill people because people love you know attention is very scarce and people 28:26 don't want to be like looking at the wallet to see how did it confirm so it 28:30 is a very important thing but of course there's a lot of stuff that you can buy 28:33 like if you buy something on Amazon you pot you buy you pay and if the 28:37 transaction doesn't go through they just they can just interpret that as you 28:41 canceling and then they just don't ship it to you so that's the whole category 28:47 of things where it doesn't actually matter the speed like they can just say 28:50 we got it they can see it in the men pool and say we have zero confim okay 28:53 you so as long as you're not in a situation where blocks are full zero 29:00 conf is actually really really really close to being secure already in a wide 29:04 number of use cases I've also mentioned other situations like you buy something 29:08 in person you buy coffee in person your face is on the video camera and it's 29:14 just like kind of a small amount of money so then they can you know just 29:17 refer to the police say this guy didn't pay he maliciously double-spent us and 29:23 you know that's shoplifting or whatever I've also said that the you could just 29:29 use the chain a different way so like you have bit refill where people spend 29:34 their BTC on the gift card maybe that takes like one hour to get six 29:40 confirmations but now once you have the gift card now you're back to the instant 29:44 thing so you just reload every month so I have a whole little document full of 29:49 ideas I did want to maybe publish a like at some kind of challenge where people 29:52 could win a prize if they have any better ideas or if they find any ideas 29:56 because a lot of ideas are found and then even I was like I remember a few 30:00 different ideas like they had different names 30:02 and I tried to go back and find some of them but because of dead internet theory 30:07 like there's a few that I know are out there that I like couldn't find so I 30:12 don't know where they are but they were interesting back in the day yeah and 30:17 what about the the cross-chain part because okay I'm pretty sure you were 30:22 right that we can solve instant confirmations in other ways but what 30:27 about the the cross-chain part we have that we call a coin shift and it's 30:36 yeah I've seen coin shift it's kind of an interesting I'm not saying that this 30:39 is the magic bullet that will fix everything I mean you were saying before 30:42 we need companies and we need brands and we need whatever so I actually think the 30:46 exchanges make a lot of money on this on one weird development is that now these 30:50 days the exchanges and make so so much money but now if you just download like 30:54 a normal app many of the apps today like the wallet apps they have like 31:00 swaps and stuff built in and to the extent that like you know the exchange 31:06 isn't sort of like widely available it's kind of snuck up on everybody snuck up 31:09 on me I was like wow every every little phone wall it is like an exchange now 31:13 and I don't remember handing over my personal information like my driver's 31:18 license to any of these but I think but I think most of these are like on-chain 31:26 swaps so it has been the same train there are bridges you know but uh we 31:32 have to settle on some design I mean it can be purely market-provided which is 31:38 fine but but I would prefer if you had some like atomic swap kind of thing you 31:43 know yeah of course um like I think that yeah I don't think the idea behind 31:56 coin shift is not even to be like this big thing at scale the coin shift is 32:00 just supposed to be like as a last resort it will always be there so why 32:07 not improve on it by you know operating an exchange business or something so it's 32:11 kind of a little bit like it's kind of like a fallback type of an idea but it's 32:19 cool idea anyways we should try it out and it's a technically the way it works 32:22 is it just says when you run this sidechain it actually you have to run 32:25 you have to run as dependencies like all these other L1 nodes and then they like 32:30 just like combines them all so it's just aware of every transaction yeah that's a 32:34 which is kind of a weird idea because like those chains like Litecoin and 32:39 monero they are always hard-forking so like that yeah it will not work if they 32:45 hard fork it will just it will have to either you either have to hard fork coin 32:49 shift or it will just stop working with that and you'd have to sort of coin 32:54 shift like two in like a nearby slot and it would just but yeah they shouldn't 32:58 hard fork and that's a mistake but they do yeah but that's the thing they always 33:02 do I think monero has this like six month or something 33:06 hard fork policy yeah I mean they should have phased that out by now I 33:12 think but they are doing something very ambitious recently this whole chain 33:16 proof thing which is like much more ambitious than the ring signature so 33:21 that is so I suppose that would make it warranted but yeah the hard fork is it 33:29 makes the whole thing custodial kind of because you need to know where to get 33:34 the new software yeah that's why I'm not sure coin shift works and because of 33:43 this because like they will hard fork you know their code yeah but the hard 33:48 fork is kind of cheating to say it doesn't work because if you have imagine 33:52 like you you scheme up some lightning thing lightning and monero swap that 33:59 would still count as having you would still have to like update the you know 34:04 the stack to deal with the new hard forked monero yeah but the difference is 34:10 that in in coin shift what in practice is happening is that the coin shift 34:18 L2 is the is deciding or the consensus of this this L2 is deciding what is the 34:23 real monero or what is the real Litecoin whereas with when I have this 34:27 lightning stuff you can still use the the old one if you want to know before 34:35 I think that's probably true I suppose because it's just we'll be 34:39 checking if the so yeah I think maybe you might be right about that um I you 34:46 know I do think again that like I don't think that's you know enough to save that 34:53 because the problem with light lightning is not you know the problem with 34:57 the lightning I'm saying that atomic swaps in general lightning is just a 35:01 part of this yeah well um we did program something once this was just like a 35:07 little toy experiment but yeah people have done this this type of thing like 35:12 we did like for fast withdrawals from Drivechain because the withdrawals are 35:15 slow but it's expected that people would just not use the BIP300 part to 35:18 withdrawal they could just swap with someone and pay a small fee and and you 35:25 know there's like a spectrum of this is not really answering your question at 35:29 all but there's like a spectrum of like you know there's used to be like there 35:33 used to be like Bitcoin OTC like over IRC and people would just send like you 35:40 know they were just like sending from instructions on where to send US dollars 35:44 people would send the US dollars and then they'd send the BTC and there was 35:46 no there was no HTLC and there was no nothing and that's how a lot of stuff 35:50 work so there's a lot of like sites where they just stand it's relies on the 35:54 brand of the thing yeah the problem is that this you either have to trust the 36:02 brand or you are introducing more friction you know so like the thing 36:07 about both market swaps and atomic swaps is that they are well then there's no 36:14 friction you know just press a button and then yeah so as I said that can 36:19 indeed be done by by market swaps we have like a side shift and another 36:25 right providers today like they work I just don't like that I don't like having 36:35 to need them you know yeah I think that's that's very admirable I agree I 36:41 mean a moment ago you said that it didn't bother you as much that a lot of 36:44 lightning is custodial or whatever so not exactly what I said I mean it does 36:51 bother me that lightning is custodial the part that doesn't bother me is some 36:57 centralization and like LSPs and because like let's say Phoenix you know the 37:02 Phoenix wallet in mobile is a non custodial wallets and you also have a 37:08 specific LSP that you connect to and that's fine you know because the thing 37:13 with the thing with having a brand is like I'm fine with having a brand that I 37:20 need to trust in some manner you know like liking kind of trust what I don't 37:24 like is having to trust them with my funds you know I need to know they're 37:28 like if they fail you if they explode for any reason I can eventually take my 37:32 funds back you know and lightning does provide that there are other models 37:37 like arc that also provide this kind of thing with more centralization you know 37:41 because everyone's on the same arcs and it can be efficient like I'm fine with 37:46 these kinds of models you know yeah but I think actually the lightning style is 37:51 worse because then the atomic swap style because when you atomic swap it's like 37:57 it's like a very small ephemeral just short-lived trust it's like you you say 38:03 I want to swap $500 of this coin for $500 of some other coin like coin or 38:10 whatever and other than that your money is not with the other than that during 38:14 this transaction your money is not with them but as if instead the idea is that 38:18 everyone pays everyone on arc then a lot of your money is in the arc machine for 38:27 example or in the LSP and that's not the good situation where it's kind of 38:31 stored up I think I mean as long as you can enforce your unilateral exit or some 38:42 kind of this you know you can't do though if it yeah you can't because 38:47 there's no black space yeah yeah I understand that by you exactly they 38:53 don't even like know it when they bring that up they don't really have any idea 38:57 what they're talking about yeah I'm getting myself to them not to you of 39:02 course but like you know it's like every year they they use the same lines yeah 39:08 but that's the thing even though it's with Drivechains we can probably do 39:13 better things that look like arc but are just better you know because arc kind of 39:21 reminds me of a it's not roll-up but like those things that look like roll-ups 39:27 you know they call it like validium and validia chains that kind of stuff you 39:31 know arc kind of looks like some of these with other requirements to like 39:38 you can do some very interesting stuff once you want to get to Drivechains 39:42 because you can just build anything on Drivechains which brings me to another 39:46 thing of me thinking which is we were going to launch with a few Drivechains 39:52 I have noticed we don't have like a if side Drivechains are we going to have 39:57 that all at lunch we built each side in I think it was like maybe 2023 or I 40:05 don't know and I kind of lost interest in it honestly but it's a commonly 40:10 requested thing I mean it's funny because a lot of people say they're in 40:17 for the tech or they say if you're in socks and it's a shit coin or whatever I 40:20 mean I kind of really I genuinely think aetherium isn't is actually not that 40:24 interesting and a lot of what people do what are most people really actually do 40:27 on aetherium is they're actually sending stable coins or they're doing they do 40:31 like something else that's actually better handled by like either thunder or 40:36 BitAssets or something yeah so I even though we built a fully working each 40:40 side I like just totally lost interest in maintaining it or having people pay 40:45 more attention to it so the question is bring it back or I mean I guess the 40:52 answer is yes but I really like thought it's actually uninspiring and it just 40:56 leads and the one good thing about it would be that you wouldn't have this 40:59 problem where it's like aetherium versus Solana verse whatever you would just 41:03 have like different aetheriums of like different sizes so I don't know I'm not 41:07 exactly sure about that what to say about that but I think so I don't know 41:14 because I think the it seems like on paper the answer should be of course 41:18 we'll make each side but really I gotta just totally honest I'm just like I feel 41:23 so bored like thinking about it and it's kind of like but I think maybe you know 41:31 maybe I don't know I have no idea if more people are interested in it then 41:34 obviously they could I think it's a good idea to have I don't know how many 41:38 people actually use it I don't know how many people actually use any any of the 41:41 stuff of course I guess it's a long-winded and rambling answer so sorry 41:47 about that I don't know yeah the thing with inside is like I agree that if is 41:55 not really that interesting you know it has a lot of problems with like with gas 42:00 and whatever but the the thing is I think it's interesting for two 42:08 perspectives first of all even if it's not interesting by itself I think it's 42:15 interesting as a testing ground for like more exotic Drivechain kind of 42:20 experimentation because like let's say I want to to build a new Drivechain right 42:29 and I want to test out the idea out in the wild like now you know but I don't 42:34 I don't want to or I cannot for some reason maybe I don't have enough support 42:38 or whatever of the miners I just want to try out some new design I can do it on 42:44 like each side you know I can build my my Drivechain right there and because 42:50 it's during complete I can just run anything there right so even though it's 42:54 it's not gonna be efficient it might work as a testing ground and then later 42:58 I can make it into an actual driving which enters another thing I was thinking 43:03 which is governance you know because a lot of chains have this governance talk 43:09 and I wonder how it will pan out in over here because like yeah we can have other 43:16 Drivechains technically but then again the thing it's it's social consensus you 43:22 know we need miners running it we need miners to think it's a good idea which 43:26 doesn't seem to have worked out for BTC because in BTC we could technically have 43:32 Drivechains miners could just like run PIP 300 and 300 on software but they 43:36 didn't so like why I don't know like why would they run new Drivechains on after 43:45 launch you know well yeah those are very good questions let me try to do them in 43:50 order first of all about aetherium with the gas I'm glad you brought that up 43:55 because basically aetherium says you can do anything you want but you have to 43:59 pay this gas cost but actually with with sidechains it's kind of like you can 44:03 already do whatever you want launch any sidechain you want and there's no gas 44:06 cost so there's just a full node that people have to run and that's that's 44:11 better in many ways because certain things the full node should just like 44:16 tank for everyone like it should just have like the state and then other than 44:20 like why charge anyone gas if you don't need to just charge transaction fee which 44:25 is way way way better there's another point that I made this is an argument I 44:30 made back in 2015 2016 a long time ago you know basically 10 years ago more 44:35 than 10 years ago and you know the argument when something like this was 44:42 called I called it like categorical control or like topical control which 44:45 was like in the EVM you can do whatever you want but that actually might be kind 44:50 of annoying because people might make weird contracts that like attack other 44:55 contracts or 44:56 do something where they just like crowd something else out yeah that was a 45:00 sidechain privatization I've seen that one that's exactly right yes thank you 45:04 for watching that yeah you can see that was way ahead of its time and even now 45:09 like I don't even think there's like enough of a shared language for people 45:13 even talk about it now but I thought the title was good and so I was thinking 45:19 like you know the people will grow frustrated with this this this this open 45:26 chain and they'll actually they'll get they're tired of it you know then to 45:30 build these special-purpose chains around that'll kind of be a little bit 45:32 more efficient because I have some kind of state that is related to their 45:37 purpose like the name sidechain can have like the registry of names they 45:40 can do stuff with that whereas the EVM chain we have to kind of like have 45:46 everything of everything and so so this is a theoretical argument that I made I 45:50 have no idea if it's gonna actually pan out or if it you know already has panned 45:55 out maybe to some extent yeah for what I've seen I don't think that happens I 45:59 haven't seen any like smart contract attacking each other haven't ever seen 46:04 that kind of thing happening yeah be interesting if it just sort of never 46:09 happened or if if miners wanted to build something to just filter it but now 46:15 we're ending I'm gonna end up like Luke Dashjr. where we have the moral 46:19 committee that filters out the bad transactions which seems like a kind of 46:23 bad road to go down I mean that's the thing miners seem very passive you know 46:28 because like there was an article on I think it was like Litecoin you know the 46:36 the guy Litecoin I don't know his name he wrote an article basically saying 46:41 that there was an optimistic bridge you know which technically miners could 46:46 steal from that bridge and yet they didn't and it was operating for like 46:50 years and years and they didn't ever attack it and this had like billions of 46:55 dollars in of very similar Drivechain is very very similar to like and then when 47:01 the people shorten it so there was this thing wormhole or something a lot of the 47:05 stuff was very similar to drive to you know except that it it kind of pushed 47:08 the envelope on like the parameters and then some of those guys rainbow bridge I 47:13 think it was called rainbow bridge yeah but the ones that are more similar to 47:17 Drivechain worked just fine which is you know sort of very validating I think 47:24 and so the okay well that brings me to the second question about governance 47:32 first of all I think this is a very misunderstood idea like people think 47:36 like Oh Bitcoin Core is running BTC and then Paul's gonna run eCash not true 47:43 and it's gonna be like then people are gonna discover how hard it is to run a 47:49 project or something and that Bitcoin Core is not perfect but it's better than 47:53 all that's completely false like the the L1 on eCash will be identical to 47:59 Bitcoin Core both now and like in the future it won't be literally identical 48:03 but it'll you know basically be identical and whatever they merge will 48:08 just be merged they'll be the same the BIP300/301 enforcer which is how BIP 48:14 300 301 is activated and used that should be like a completable task so 48:20 ideally it would already be done now I'm sure there are some tweaks but ideally 48:26 it would not even have to be changed ever again after the project launches 48:32 and ideally even months before the project launches so that's a 48:37 completable thing and then these L2s they're a little bit more like oh yeah 48:40 sure like I'm gonna have like L2s that I like and that I'm opinionated about but 48:44 the L2s are kind of like add delete whatever L2s the miners want now this 48:52 is it leads directly to your point about why did you know if the miners are not 48:56 in in the BTC world the miners could already add or subtract Drivechains at 49:02 will individual ones ones as a set my honest explanation for why they have not 49:09 is that they just they don't have any understanding of the issues at all which 49:15 I think is a big problem for them because they constantly complain about 49:18 they actually complain about having no money and they complain that nothing is 49:23 activating and even I made a joke at in Las Vegas I was on stage and security 49:29 budget day one you can find it security budget panel and I was like hey listen 49:33 to Nick at from Luxor CEO of Luxor and I was like oh listen you guys you know you 49:39 run a pool you could call of your pool friends and you could just activate 15 49:44 soft forks if you really wanted to and you know people kind of laughed and he 49:50 kind of nothing to say to that I would be interested in exploring that now I 49:54 think part of the passivity of the miners has been like bred into them or 49:58 beaten into them however you want to think about it because the soft work 50:02 used to not be controversial at all this is I'm gonna give you a long war story 50:06 now but hopefully not too long but you know the soft work didn't used to be 50:11 controversial at all and there was no controversy at all it was just it was 50:15 just a code change that happened to not do anything until 51% of the miners 50:20 upgraded to the new version so it meant very very very little and there are even 50:24 many embarrassing instances where like stuff was not activated right or minor 50:30 signal that they updated but they didn't actually update and so they well it's 50:38 already 551 all right I guess we'll have to go to 630 but so they were like they 50:45 would do all this stuff and but none of it was controversial at all and even 50:49 when SegWit happened it wasn't the SegWit part that was controversial 50:52 SegWit was just held hostage because the miners had been convinced by large 50:57 blockers that the core developers were not necessarily acting in what they 51:03 thought was their best interest so they decided to you know if they're like oh 51:08 you're not gonna do what I want I won't do what you want and this whole thing 51:11 became like and that was SegWit and then Taproot was kind of like a weird image 51:17 reverse shadow echo of that and then nothing has happened since so the fact 51:24 that miners are too passive that is why BTC is gonna die off so that it's not 51:31 like a permanent feature of Bitcoin. Yeah, about that, so well eCash is hard fork and it 51:39 has the those properties of like basically trying to steal hash rate 51:43 because it's the same it has a bigger potential for for fees and also it has 51:50 the same mining algorithms like it tries to kill Bitcoin right so first of all 51:56 between cash kind of tried but it didn't I'm not even sure if they still use the 52:02 same hashing algorithm but whatever so the thing is right now my what I expect 52:10 will happen is that launch day comes the price just goes down absurdly and and 52:20 then sometime later it it starts getting some some users and whatever and but it 52:28 it just becomes another altcoin you know that's what I imagine will happen so 52:34 like I'm at the point where I think I'm pretty sure this is a good idea you know 52:40 even with the the shed stuff which is not doesn't look good I think it's a good 52:46 idea and I think the price will increase you know but it will be something like 52:51 would be BSH that now and at the same time even though I think the fork is a 52:59 good idea I think it will not overthrow Bitcoin we maybe maybe if we got enough 53:05 users it's gonna be a situation where like we have we can have maybe more more 53:11 hash rate but then bitcoins is still the king which is gonna be a really strange 53:16 situation if that happens at all but now I'm like I'm pessimistic but I wanted to 53:22 be optimistic you know yeah well sure let me just finish the governance idea 53:27 of like why would miners you know activate why would they care about 53:34 specific Drivechains I think it would be a very different story after you know 53:40 in a world where it's like the coin has been specifically created for this with 53:46 this design in mind that there will be these scaling and layers but the layers 53:49 we merge mined L2s and most of the transaction fee revenue that miners get 53:54 will come to them I think they would now they have a much more direct they can 54:01 they've seen it they see it with their own two eyes that all when we we get 54:05 money from each of these so that I think that makes it much easier for the one 54:09 one thing that's been just depressing is that you would think the pools would 54:12 specialize because they they are kind of like if you imagine a world where like 54:20 okay so people defer to the pool like the pool as a brand and the pool is like 54:27 one person who's like full-time job is to assemble the blocks and maintain the 54:33 block construction whereas the individual hashers they are diffuse and 54:38 they have only this very small percentage of the hash rate so you would 54:42 think like yeah like foundry would have like a whole department about like oh 54:45 what should we do about quantum what should we do about whatever and they 54:49 would put out now I happen to know about one historical fact that happened which 54:55 is that they knew about the epic sat the ordinal sat and foundry emailed 55:00 suppose this is what I was told by you know reputable sources maybe it's not 55:04 it but you know I'm pretty I believed it I still believe it they were told that 55:09 excuse me I was told that they emailed their members they said we will isolate 55:13 the epic sat ordinal which is coming up 55:18 for for you guys and then we'll sell it and give you guys the money and then 55:22 apparently they got a big backlash from this like people are messaging them and 55:26 because the you know ordinals was conflated ordinals and inscriptions this 55:30 has become controversial and so people were emailing foundry saying why are 55:35 you getting us involved with this ordinals controversy and so the 55:38 foundry instead did nothing and then it was via BTC that mind the epic sat this 55:42 is one single Satoshi so worth almost nothing you know fractions of a penny 55:47 and but they sold that for like 13 BTC so this is a story about how it's not 55:58 good enough for the pools to know what they're talking about there can't be any 56:05 just it can't be huge discrepancy or a huge mistrust between the pools and 56:11 their clients so now you see actually this is all lightning's fault actually 56:14 because it's not lightning specifically but when you when you have a culture 56:19 where everyone believes false things and all kinds of nonsense is constantly 56:22 spreading and people are paranoid and mistrustful which is you know healthy to 56:27 some extent but we have to fight against like massive lies which are being told 56:38 in the Bitcoin community by Bitcoiners to other Bitcoiners on like an enormous 56:42 scale and there's a huge fallout from this so then foundry decided oh we'll 56:47 just have no opinion on anything and so I don't think that would you know I don't 56:53 to me that doesn't apply at all to when you have a different you know you hard 56:58 fork and into eCash and you have this separate thing and there if this is 57:03 directly in their financial interest to add more L2s and try them out and 57:07 only get rid of them if they are kind of causing some kind of huge hit to the 57:11 bottom line in some mysterious way which is very unlikely to come up in the 57:18 first place this is very hard to add a Drivechain that like decreases total 57:22 mining revenues so of course they would be thinking oh we should add them and of 57:26 course if if they can't if you can't convince miners to add the L2 then that 57:33 it might mean that the L2 is just not that compelling at first just the fact 57:39 that we'd have two or three L2s this I think this dramatically alters 57:43 governance so if we just ship with a few different L2s it's no longer it's a 57:47 completely different governance situation where it's like with Bitcoin 57:51 core if you try and you get rejected then it's kind of like sort of shameful 57:57 for you even if your idea was good and then now it becomes awkward for Bitcoin 58:02 core they can never admit that they made a mistake it'll be awkward for them if 58:06 the idea ever succeeds but it's completely different when you can go 58:08 across the street from one L2 to a different like if you had Thunder one 58:11 Thunder two and then he was like oh I'm gonna take my idea to the other L2 then 58:18 fine I think that's very or I'm gonna embark upon the process to create a new 58:23 L2 so I think it's a completely different situation in many ways now of 58:30 course it could still be the case we could still learn that miners attention 58:35 is so well yeah it's just easier to get away with being passive like you know 58:43 you have a bunch of mining pools hey what's their opinion on such and such 58:46 mostly they just haven't weighed in so yeah I think it's a governance defect in 58:51 Bitcoin that you know it could be fixed but no one even cares because the whole 58:57 situation as a whole is so screwed up that it's it would be it would actually 59:02 even if you fix like pools having an opinion on things which you could fix if 59:07 you tried it wouldn't really change the fact that you know people like core 59:12 don't want to stick out there they're cowards and they don't want to stick out 59:15 their neck on for anything that is actually interesting and people like 59:20 Michael Saylor don't want any Bitcoin development to take place at all and 59:24 they don't want any privacy improvements and 59:29 probably theoretically happy that the samurai devs went to jail I would 59:33 imagine that's the true that's logically implied by Michael Saylor's position so 59:38 we already live in this world where everything is totally out of whack so I 59:44 think that the governance situation is fine now we go back to the hash rate you 59:50 had laid out a scenario where 59:53 coin launches and you say the price goes down but that's kind of weird isn't it 59:57 because really the price is kind of basically zero before it exists that's 1:00:02 my interpretation is that it can only go up yeah I mean like from the starting 1:00:09 price or whatever that is it keeps going down for some time that's what I meant 1:00:15 yeah a lot of people will sell a lot of these people are dead weight and we need 1:00:20 them to sell so that's and I think a lot of people are way some people have 1:00:24 the opinion that is it's pointless to actually promote the coin until you know 1:00:31 like people are waiting for like the low price automatically is like a feedback 1:00:36 loop that actually helps the project so the high price helps and the low price 1:00:40 helps it sounds paradoxical and weird and it sort of is to some extent but if 1:00:44 you think about it like this the high price helps obviously because it's 1:00:47 validating for the project and it makes everything oh this was the right idea 1:00:51 and they think now not only do I know this is a good idea but a lot of other 1:00:55 people know as well so that's very very good obviously but the the low price 1:01:00 also it also invites a little bit of thought for people where they say well 1:01:05 hey listen before such-and-such was the case but now the price is so low that 1:01:10 you know if I just sell 1% of my BTC or whatever it is I can accumulate a huge 1:01:17 quantity of this this other thing and so anyone out there who thinks oh you know 1:01:22 what what this project needs is just one or two or three things and I can I could 1:01:26 give it one of them and maybe I could find someone to give it the other two 1:01:32 now they have an incentive to buy tune up the project like maybe all the only 1:01:37 thing the project needs is the right way of explaining the project or maybe it 1:01:41 needs you know whatever wallet or something just these are just examples 1:01:44 but so the lower the price will kind of have to go we kind of do need because 1:01:54 again the problem is cultural so we want we need the community to separate and we 1:01:58 need different people to be different stakeholders on the coin because until 1:02:03 you do that why would anyone unveil their big their big move because the way 1:02:09 to make money is to hope that if you really if you're a true believer you 1:02:14 kind of want to hope that you can accumulate at a very low price and then 1:02:18 reveal your big thing and you know when the hard fork occurs there'll be 1:02:23 millions of people who own the coin and maybe find out maybe not all of them 1:02:29 will find out about it but then that is certainly it leads to these 1:02:34 conversations about okay what exactly will ETFs and all these people do with 1:02:39 the coin they could try to ignore it or destroy it or sell it or whatever but 1:02:45 then the point is to have to you know I think all those things any of those 1:02:48 things would be good actually for the project now the the issue is the end 1:02:53 game the end game is everything in chess and usually in life but not always so 1:03:02 you were saying in your little story that the price go down we'll get some 1:03:07 users and then it'll become like an altcoin then you said something kind of 1:03:11 curious or you said oh maybe one day I'll have more hash rate but it will 1:03:14 still be low on the list the scenario that interests me the most is a scenario 1:03:22 where the transaction fee revenues from usage so forget about the exchange rate 1:03:27 but the exchange rate transaction fees are rising geometrically so that doesn't 1:03:33 mean super high but maybe they go up let's say they go up 10% every year to 1:03:42 me this means that eventually there will be a time just mathematically so say 1:03:47 BTCs transaction fees are flat but on eCash across all the L2s they grow 1:03:53 10% a year and you know like we have to zoom way out here depending on where we 1:03:59 started because 10% of 45 cents is a lot less than 10% of like whatever 100 1:04:05 billion dollars but you know have you ever played that game where someone says 1:04:08 would you rather have a million dollars or would you rather one penny on January 1:04:13 1st and then two pennies on January 2nd and then four pennies on January 3rd and 1:04:19 then you get to January 31st and then you stop and that's the thing about 1:04:25 geometric growth is it accumulates to an enormous extent and so if you get to 1:04:31 a point where the transaction fee revenues and of course what are 1:04:33 bitcoins what are BTCs transaction fee revenues today very very low and the 1:04:38 block subsidy cannot be bolstered significantly by increases in price any 1:04:44 longer both because the price can't go up very much but also because the 1:04:49 halvings cut 95% every 16 years they cut 95% of them and of the block 1:04:58 subsidy value anyway so so if you have a situation where BTC transaction fees are 1:05:04 like sort of basically flat paid to miners and you have a situation where 1:05:08 rival chain is going up 10% per year you'll eventually reach a point where 1:05:14 they go up so much they're going up so much in each two-week period that it 1:05:21 will just drain all 100% of the hash rate from BTC because eventually it will 1:05:27 be just leaping up by such a huge amount that it will take basically forever for 1:05:32 the BTC hash rate to adjust down and then once it does adjust down it'll 1:05:38 already be too late because the fee rate will just keep growing now of course you 1:05:44 know you have to like take out a pen and a paper and try to figure out when 1:05:48 if ever that might happen but that is like a guaranteed win in the endgame if 1:05:53 nothing changed now of course a million things would change you know BTC probably 1:05:57 activate Drivechains at some point or something similar maybe I don't know but 1:06:03 they won't actually if the if I'm right about how screwed up the culture is 1:06:07 which the culture is screwed up because basically everything that everyone says 1:06:10 is you know I don't know what the exact word to describe it is but basically we 1:06:16 live in a world where in Bitcoin a lot of people are lying to themselves about 1:06:21 like why the project is important or how to add value to it or whether or not 1:06:26 it's important that we have any users or whether or not it's like do we need 1:06:33 revenue for miners do we need privacy do we need developers do we need do we 1:06:38 actually compete against these other coins people are lying to themselves on 1:06:42 a huge massive scale lightning is just one example of that and I think the 1:06:47 situation is probably unfixable and that will mean that all the smart people will 1:06:51 just keep leaving and that's why that's the real death spiral is just that it's 1:06:57 everyone's just eggs of liquidity. Yeah but like money has no effect you 1:07:06 definitely know that so the thing is my current expectation is that it will both 1:07:15 be the case that eCash will be in some sense a success but also that Bitcoin 1:07:22 will stay being king you know because like you can very much sustain a 1:07:27 situation where you know you have like centralized lightning and custodians and 1:07:32 whatever and people mostly use it through through them and then also it's 1:07:37 the number one because like kind of like the gold standard you know people use 1:07:41 banks and whatever which was not ideal but it worked and so I imagine that's my 1:07:49 my current expectation that it will both be the case that yes eCash will have 1:07:54 some success but also that Bitcoin will stay being the king and it will just 1:08:00 become a centralized thing in that sense. Well I think the network effect both ways 1:08:05 because Bitcoin is currently held up by a lot of high expectations that the 1:08:10 price will continue to go up that it will eventually take over as global 1:08:15 money like a lot of people have these expectations so that's that's lifting 1:08:18 BTC up. I think you know what has stronger network effects than Bitcoin is 1:08:24 the US dollar so if you only think network effects matter then the US 1:08:29 dollar is going to stomp Bitcoin into the ground but you clearly don't think 1:08:35 that and you know the network effect has the opposite issue like I was talking 1:08:40 about where the network effect has like I was I just mentioned before like if 1:08:46 the price is low then anyone who thinks oh you know what no you know what this 1:08:49 project needs to increase the price is just these one two or three things I'm 1:08:53 gonna buy and then do those things and then as part of the whole project I'm 1:08:56 gonna make money that the opposite is true and this has already happened in 1:08:59 BTC where we the Bitcoin used to have lots and lots of lots of really smart 1:09:03 people but as the price has gone up a lot of people have just you know they 1:09:07 just shrug and they just decide you know I've got a family now I've got a got a 1:09:10 kids and people just quit so the smartest best people who who joined 1:09:16 Bitcoin the earliest because like if you joined Bitcoin after 2019 then you know 1:09:20 you really don't have an opinion about about anything and so but all these the 1:09:26 smartest people who joined earliest they they a lot of them just like kind of 1:09:32 basically retired or left and so the network effect hits the other way 1:09:39 because it's like the price is high but it's like oh yeah just liquidate so I 1:09:43 mean I agree to some extent but I think that really what we've seen is yeah a 1:09:50 lot of complacency because Bitcoin has been number one for so long people just 1:09:54 think I mean there's numerous examples fall of Rome it being the big one but 1:09:59 there's many examples of people just saying well you know this this has been 1:10:04 around for a long time it's pretty hard to make something 1:10:08 permanent especially when it's constantly lying to itself about 1:10:12 important issues so I think actually the network effect is going to be 1:10:19 it's the partly the Novocaine that blinds everyone to the all the the 1:10:24 problems in BTC people just think well here's number one so anything you can 1:10:28 come up with any problem you want you could say look I found this really big 1:10:31 problem and people say hey look it's number one it's like when that lady 1:10:36 says 9-eleven I'm family guy and it's just whatever the thing is we could say 1:10:42 oh like we whatever problem you could bring up you could say well it has no 1:10:49 future it's gonna die off people just say well it's number one and so it's 1:10:53 like a thought terminating cliche yeah to be more specific it's because what 1:11:01 you said the thing about the US dollar having metric fives and well that's true 1:11:06 but the thing is that the US dollar is inflationary as with any other 1:11:12 whereas Bitcoin is not inflationary you know so I think that's one of the 1:11:19 strongest thing but you're right you're saying that the properties also matter 1:11:22 that's all I'm trying to say is the network effects matter and the 1:11:25 properties matter right so it's not only network effects sure but the thing is it 1:11:35 seems to me that the the network effects matter more in a sense of the 1:11:39 like people can use Bitcoin like in a centralized way and they already do and 1:11:46 like they will probably keep doing that you know so I don't know the thing is 1:11:55 we'll have to see you know only time will tell the thing yeah of course no I 1:12:01 don't think that we have a very high chance of succeeding but we do have a 1:12:04 much higher chance than I think I don't think people realize to so screwed at 1:12:08 BTC is actually and how much of it will just automatically come to light 1:12:12 eventually and so it'll be like the Theranos example I mean it's already 612 1:12:19 so hopefully if someone wants to come up and talk please request soon but it'll 1:12:25 be like the Theranos example where like the the papering over the hard problems 1:12:36 has only made them much worse like a lot of the stuff a lot of the problems 1:12:39 basically all of the problems that BTC has now could easily be fixed if we 1:12:45 could just talk about them but we cannot so we can never fix them okay we 1:12:55 have sad scholar hello yes hello I think I added him hello yes hello how 1:13:17 are you can you hear me I can hear you yes I wasn't sure I had too much to add 1:13:23 to this particular conversation of these particular topics I do think that um you 1:13:29 know I think I think a lot of us know that there's some issues with Bitcoin 1:13:32 core that's going on you know I think having I remember and I think I think I 1:13:38 spoke with you about this Paul like we used to talk about having like light 1:13:42 Litecoin as like a playground right to experiment and do things on and and then 1:13:47 maybe bring those things to Bitcoin right you know to try to have like a 1:13:51 tempered expectation of how to move things forward and in a development 1:13:56 fashion and I don't even see things like that happen anymore so I think more or 1:14:02 less people talk about like whether or not a project succeeds or not I think is 1:14:07 not almost the right way to look at it but the better way to look at it is what 1:14:11 other benefits can come from having advancements in development in the space 1:14:17 in general right if somebody wants to test something on a real chain with real 1:14:23 liquidity right and you're not ever gonna be able to test that on on on 1:14:29 bitcoins main main net but there's another chain out there that allows you 1:14:33 to kind of step forward and test out these theories like that's not really a 1:14:39 bad thing I think I think that's a good thing and I think having an ability to 1:14:44 test things and have a test bed that you know has the ability to have some 1:14:49 real loss because if you're just testing things without the it's like paying 1:14:52 playing poker without without money right sure you can do it 1:14:57 and maybe you might even get good but the odds of that are slim if you're gonna 1:15:02 learn to play poker you got to learn to play with real money because then there's 1:15:08 real chances on the table real losses on the table and you're able to actually 1:15:12 learn from mistakes and grow and so that's kind of what I think I'm not sure 1:15:18 if that really adds to this specific conversation I think it's a very good 1:15:21 it's a very good point and it speaks to I do there's I agree and I also disagree 1:15:28 slightly which I'll get to that but I think yeah there's stuff like Bitcoin 1:15:33 Inquisition and Litecoin and stuff used to be like yeah and people used to just 1:15:36 be able to play around and tinker with things and I think the lack of tinkering 1:15:42 it actually is a result of this weird cult that we formed where everyone just 1:15:46 thinks that Bitcoin is perfect Bitcoin can't be improved immaculate conception 1:15:52 blah blah blah and so it's become like a hatred and fear of anything new and 1:16:01 dismissal of all innovation and so all that I think all that's related that's 1:16:06 also related to just overconfident stuff shared about you know what lightning can 1:16:10 do and whatever people just stick to the same points year after year you know 1:16:15 they're not true okay now this there's a part where I disagree and I kind of 1:16:22 think more like Marcus is right to focus on like will it replace BTC because 1:16:28 you're talking about poker you know rightly so but it's like in poker 1:16:33 imagine there's a thing in poker where if you win the hand you also lose all of 1:16:38 your money so if you lose you lose and then if you win you lose well people 1:16:44 won't even bother playing the game and that is an issue with this type of 1:16:52 scenario because if you say oh I've got a better version of Bitcoin Bitcoin 2.0 1:16:58 then you put it out there and then everyone realizes that oh it is better 1:17:02 but if it's very easy for BTC to just then copy it so then you're in the 1:17:07 situation where if you lose you lose your idea actually sucks and it's 1:17:12 terrible then you lose but if you win you also lose so you kind of have to do 1:17:17 you really do need to frame the whole thing in terms of can this actually 1:17:22 become number one because that's the only way anyone will well in my view is 1:17:33 that there will be only one cryptocurrency so it's like to me that 1:17:36 either I'll be zero or they'll be very high this is the way to be one winner 1:17:43 and a lot of losers so I kind of think like yeah you're either it'll just end 1:17:48 up being worth zero if it's no good and if it's and if it wins it will be worth 1:17:53 a ton but in order for it to win BTC has to lose so that is why I think you might 1:17:58 want there is some it's almost like if you can't replace BTC you have no 1:18:05 property right into the the idea you know like you haven't I'm not talking 1:18:11 about like you like a patent or anything I'm just saying like it doesn't matter 1:18:14 if the idea is good because even if it's good you'll lose and so you kind of only 1:18:20 want to talk about will it will it win and that's kind of why I do focus on the 1:18:26 cultural issues in BTC which I think are just gonna kill BTC one guy has been 1:18:33 trying iron or whatever and I tried to keep trying to bring him up but it sort 1:18:37 of doesn't work but I'm gonna try again but so yeah I think that you kind of 1:18:44 have no choice but to frame it as I think it worked this time you kind of 1:18:50 have no choice but to frame it as a rival risk competition 1:18:58 because otherwise you can't do the experiment it's exactly what you were 1:19:01 saying you were saying you need to do a real poker chips yeah I mean and I think 1:19:05 the competition is a good thing regardless right I mean I think 1:19:07 sometimes you need competition otherwise you know you get lazy and hubris starts 1:19:13 to set up right and but it's not a real competition unless the winner can win 1:19:18 and the loser loses so I think that's that's kind of related okay we got iron 1:19:22 is now up here hello 1:19:27 hey Paul how you doing man I'm doing great 1:19:32 out of me hey I talked to a couple of guys they mentioned that you were okay 1:19:37 with you I guess posting the the new Twitter channel since I know we had the 1:19:46 with the communities kind of going away the X did away with it we created a new 1:19:51 blue check verified Twitter Twitter channel for the Solana 1:19:55 eCash version of the project just want to kind of highlight that I'll tweet it 1:20:01 out but it was love if you wouldn't mind sharing it at some point and if you had 1:20:05 any updates and I know some of the guys just want me to ask you kind of what 1:20:07 your thoughts were for preliminary ideas you had if you're open to discussing it 1:20:12 it's the same idea and I did make like a tiny little spreadsheets very very tiny 1:20:16 but I shared it with a few people so I'll share with you also and if we can 1:20:22 post it I thought it's a very simple idea where it's just like you know the 1:20:27 creator fees are just that's just like money being paid to me so I'll just 1:20:32 interpret that as people purchasing the real eCash and then the challenge is 1:20:39 logistically getting it back but I that's what I posted about so I think 1:20:44 it'll be fun for everyone and it'd be interesting hopefully yeah not pretty 1:20:50 it's definitely support what you're doing I mean honestly it feels like you 1:20:55 know second chance Bitcoin you're not only are you improving the chain that's 1:21:01 dying in a number of ways but for the average you know retail person who might 1:21:05 have missed it in 2011 literally like getting in a hot tub time machine and 1:21:09 going back and having an opportunity to buy a Bitcoin at $30 with coins so super 1:21:14 fun project be a part of appreciate you well hey thank thank you I just want to 1:21:23 say to to a lot of people that are saying like you can't do this year you 1:21:27 shouldn't do this I mean if we're not free market capitalists and 1:21:32 libertarians working with open source protocols like then what else are we 1:21:37 like people people can do pretty much whatever they want and if it fails it 1:21:43 fails if it doesn't it doesn't like to say you can't you like you can't do 1:21:49 this you can't do something with your own money I just I really just reject 1:21:53 that framing in its totality well yeah I agree and I would also point out that 1:22:00 you know people said this before when Bitcoin was first created people said 1:22:04 oh you know they can't just do that they can't just create so that's funny that 1:22:09 we Bitcoiners are rebels but I think what some of these people mean if we 1:22:16 could play devil's advocate for them you know should we even bother I don't know 1:22:21 but it's like these people have an argument that goes something like this 1:22:25 and they say well hey Bitcoin is the final solution you know Bitcoin is the 1:22:30 one answer and it's the perfect thing and everything else is a distraction so 1:22:34 Bitcoin is perfect and everything else is different from perfect aka worse and 1:22:39 so they think every anyone who talks about anything other than you know 1:22:46 shilling Bitcoin and anyone doesn't involve anything else they're just 1:22:49 distracting and delaying you know the revolution the great BTC revolution and 1:22:55 it would never even occur to these people that they are the ones who are 1:22:58 delaying the BTC revolution by you know disabling the culture of truth and 1:23:03 making it possible to talk about fix bitcoins problems so they just basically 1:23:08 have this claim to certitude they just they're absolutely certain that they are 1:23:13 right and they think okay Bitcoin is the way to go they're absolutely certain of 1:23:20 that and if you're absolutely certain of anything you know that's how you're 1:23:24 gonna react you're gonna say well no one should do anything else you know we 1:23:26 could find plenty of fundamentalist Islam people who think you know they 1:23:30 also found certainty and you could find that in every you know you can go down 1:23:35 the line and there's all kinds of organizations political organizations 1:23:40 religious cults etc so people you know whenever anyone is certain that they 1:23:45 found the truth that's usually a clue that you should run away and they have 1:23:49 not found the truth and I think that's the case here so they just the argument 1:23:53 is something like we know that Bitcoin BTC is the best we know that it's gonna 1:23:59 fix everything so who are all these people who are saying that that's not 1:24:03 true oh they must be it must be liars or talking to them is a waste of time and 1:24:09 yeah the irony is of course a lot of people saying this you know like I joined 1:24:13 the Bitcoin community a long long long time ago I was like presenting at 1:24:16 scaling one and and scaling two and three and I was in the program committee 1:24:21 for not saying that that matters but this this idea that people are just 1:24:25 absolutely certain they believe that absolutely certain to have found the 1:24:28 truth you know that's that's what gets you in the end they should look into you 1:24:36 know why people disagree with them I think 1:24:44 yeah no that's I think that's I think that's a real good point to again that 1:24:49 plays into the the hubris I would think right oh yeah exactly okay only five 1:24:58 minutes left so jump up quick Paul I think you should also repeat the 1:25:06 first talking points about the mining pool and the bounty because when you 1:25:10 were saying that it was maybe only 10-15 people listening and now there's more of 1:25:15 them we're doing a bug bounty you can scroll back to my tweets to find the 1:25:22 link or you can go to to Drivechain that info find the articles section where 1:25:26 it is a blog post and it's a hundred thousand dollars and I'm going to 1:25:32 massively increase it if there's lots of bugs being found but hundred thousand 1:25:37 and basically it's five rounds of twenty thousand per round and you find bugs and 1:25:45 you send them in and then every every two weeks whoever is found the most bugs 1:25:51 especially bugs in certain software and especially severe bugs and especially 1:25:56 bugs that other people didn't find so these are the this is all explained in 1:26:00 the post but yeah if you find those types of bugs you can get first place 1:26:05 and if you get in first place and no one else enters then you win twenty 1:26:10 thousand dollars otherwise you win some other amount of money which I have a 1:26:13 chart so then there is prizes for first second and third place and if there are 1:26:24 lots of bugs are found then maybe I'll expand it and I'll make it you know 1:26:29 first through fifth place or add more money or something and so that's the bug 1:26:34 bounty contest and then also we have this new thing simple pool and it is is 1:26:39 brand new and not everything is implemented yet but it's just the 1:26:42 starting point because I've always wanted there to be an open source pool I 1:26:47 think we should have this open source pool software that so we all know 1:26:52 exactly what's going on in the pool and we should optimize it so that the pools 1:26:58 themselves want to use it and it's like some you know really good open source 1:27:03 library that's just the best in the in the the other best available we should 1:27:09 also have this pool hopper software so that miners don't have to think as much 1:27:13 about you know they just point their hash at one thing and it will decide for 1:27:17 them if they want you know which pool to go to so they get the most money you 1:27:22 know PPS and then there's also a way of the pool paying people out without the 1:27:29 pool custodying the funds so that that's also better so that's a that's 1:27:36 preliminary but that's also I announced it and I there's links to my writing on 1:27:42 this topic on how it should work and why and there's also link to the github and 1:27:48 it is not supposed to actually replace any of the the brands you know like 1:27:54 foundry or whatever ideally they would just use this software and if people 1:28:00 don't want to use it then they don't have to but I think that the you know we 1:28:03 want people to have I just think there should be an open source pool that just 1:28:10 is committed to aggressively revenue maximizing so so it's the opposite of 1:28:16 Luke's censorship money destroying pool in that way okay so now it's only two 1:28:24 minutes left so if you're really really fast you can hop up I see that but if 1:28:37 not here I would love to have him on to share some opinions well he can come up 1:28:43 but there's not that much time so he can hop up but I I selected a tweet of his 1:28:52 for my lightning tweet this morning about I had other tweets but he's like 1:28:59 yeah the people who are in the know 1:29:03 the you know like the people who are very very knowledgeable about lightning 1:29:07 they you know they just don't think that the non custodial lightning will 1:29:12 actually work so there's publicly available information about that I think 1:29:20 we'll have to wait until next week for more questions but this has been great 1:29:26 even though we only had very few people this time but we had pretty good 1:29:30 conversation nonetheless or maybe because of that I don't know but now it's 1:29:38 630 so I have to go but this has been really great so see everyone next week 1:29:45 I'm thinking about changing the format maybe I'll go to Clubhouse or something 1:29:48 else I don't know but I'll let everyone know I'll post the announcement so 1:29:53 thanks very much and thanks to everyone who asked questions and made comments so 1:29:58 thanks see you guys later
