0:00 Did it hit you guys? 0:18 Did it ping? 0:20 Did it ping? 0:21 Did it hear? 0:26 Really? 0:29 Maybe I'm not connected to Twitter on this thing. 0:31 I got your here we go tweet, yeah. 0:34 Oh, it did? 0:41 Well, I don't see it. 0:44 Maybe it didn't go through. 0:45 Yeah, I don't see anything. 0:46 That's okay, I'm going to do it now. 0:51 All I see so far is all right, here we go. 1:14 There it is. 1:16 Hello, and welcome to PartyLine Chat. 1:29 My name is Michael Finney. 1:31 Today, we are bringing back two previous guests to talk about BTC and BSV. 1:39 We've got Paul Sztorc. 1:41 Do you want to introduce yourself at Truthcoin on Twitter? 1:46 Yep, that's me. 1:47 I don't know. 1:48 I think introductions are pretty boring, honestly. 1:51 You don't necessarily give a proper introduction just so much as people can get to see your face, pop up, and hear your voice. 1:58 I should say I represent the BTC side, though. 2:01 That's fair. 2:02 The audience should at least know that. 2:04 Sure. 2:05 Daniel Krawietz, taking the BSV side of things, you know him as the emperor of Bitcoin. 2:12 We also did a project called Bitcoin at Scale, released earlier this year. 2:16 Do you want to say hello, Daniel? 2:18 Hello. 2:19 Yes, I am the emperor of Bitcoin. 2:23 Fantastic. 2:25 See, that introduction was not boring. 2:27 I would like to say that I hope that all the BTCers out there who may be watching, wish me the best of luck because I may need it when going up against the emperor of Bitcoin. 2:42 That's fair. 2:43 We wish you the best of luck here from PartyLine as well. 2:46 Thank you. 2:47 Do the other guys in the crew want to introduce themselves so we know who is here and what they look like and sound like on the debate? 2:53 I'm Brian. 2:54 I'm Mr. Brockfond on Twitter. 2:56 I have the paper bag head icon. 2:59 I'm not the emperor of anything. 3:04 Hey, this is Nish here on Twitter. 3:10 Hey, this is Justin. 3:13 11J Moore on Twitter. 3:15 All right. 3:16 So that's everybody on here right now. 3:18 People might pop back in later if they choose to. 3:22 But let's kind of get into it. 3:23 So you've got one side. 3:25 You got the BSV side and then you got the BTC side. 3:29 Where do you guys want to start? 3:31 What do you want to begin with in terms of, you know, the beachhead? 3:36 Where do you want to land? 3:37 Where do you want to land? 3:43 Well, I'd like to start talking about my goals for this chat. 3:52 Because what I would like to do is convince Paul to come over to the BSV side without pumping BSV. 4:03 So my ideal outcome will be that Paul is the only one who believes that I won the debate. 4:17 And so I want to give Paul an opportunity to buy into BSV. 4:24 It's off to a good start because I actually, I think I understand what he means by that. 4:29 Well, so I want to say things that Paul will understand are really good for BSV. 4:38 But that everybody else will think are negative. 4:43 And Paul can communicate to me the point when he has been convinced by saying the stupidest thing he can think of. 4:55 And I will still want to lose the debate. 4:59 So then I will try to say something stupider than that. 5:04 But he'll realize that his best option is also to anti-pump BSV. 5:13 So he'll try to also act stupid so that people don't think it's a good idea. 5:28 Do we agree to these terms? 5:31 Nobody has to agree to that. I'm just saying that's just what I'm going to do. 5:37 But it's in Paul's best interest. 5:40 So he can start doing things my way at any time. 5:50 All right. 5:55 I don't know, I may already be doing so. 5:58 Dan Kravitz is an odd person because he left the sacred realm of BTC. 6:05 So now if anyone on Twitter finds out that I agree with him or I'm doing anything that he even likes, or even that I'm not doing the thing that he hates the most, then it will look like... 6:20 I don't know. I don't know what it will look like at this point. 6:25 Okay. Well, Paul, do you have any goals for this debate? 6:30 Are you going to try to convince me of anything? 6:34 Well, I don't know. Maybe I think there are some underappreciated deficiencies of the hard fork that I think maybe people might want to hear about. 6:46 So that's basically it, I guess. Maybe I want to agree a little bit for fun and for support. 6:51 Oh, okay. 6:54 Okay, well, if you don't mind, I'll... 6:59 Well, first of all, I guess I should figure out... 7:05 Well, can you explain who will benefit from Drivechain and how? 7:17 Okay, well, I can definitely do that. 7:20 Drivechain is a way of... So Drivechain is something I designed in that we have now this piece of software that we have produced. 7:29 So you can find... If anyone who's listening is interested, they can go to drivechain.info and read a lot more about it there. 7:37 But basically, it is a technology for enabling sidechains on Bitcoin. 7:42 So it lets people add, remove sidechains, or send coins to them and get them back. 7:47 And so what that does is it opens up the sort of monopoly that developers currently have on Bitcoin. 7:56 And it makes it so that instead the developers are in perfect competition with each other. 8:02 So what it does for Bitcoin owners and investors and users is it prevents... 8:09 Well, for investors, it prevents you from being trapped on the one coin, and it prevents you from being killed by an error made by the developers. 8:19 So maybe that's the most relevant advantage, that if there's something wrong with one piece of software, you can just move to a different piece of software. 8:26 And that has a lot of healthy... I don't know. That has a lot of health to it. 8:33 Okay. So Drivechain prevents you from being killed by a negligent stupidity. 8:46 Okay. 8:47 It's like, you know, it's really that solves the problem that I think that the large blocker group originally had. 8:57 Maybe if I can speak for Roger here, that's, you know, he's not here. 9:01 But it kind of gets him, you get one gets the impression that he was frustrated with developers. 9:06 He couldn't get his own competing ideas into the protocol, and he couldn't sort of fire the developers, so to speak. 9:14 But with Drivechain, you can, you can just switch to a different piece of software. 9:17 It's the same 21 million coins. It's the same hash rate. 9:21 So it's, it stops the Bitcoin GitHub repository from being like a kind of dictatorship. 9:29 You can escape and go to a different piece of software. 9:32 Okay. 9:34 Okay, well, yeah, okay, I agree with all that. 9:39 So to me, you are like someone who is on the Titanic. 9:49 And while it's sinking, you say, I'm going to design the perfect life raft. 10:03 Yeah, I get a little bit what you're saying. 10:05 It's funny that you mentioned that because I had a different analogy where the hard forkers are like in Snowpiercer, 10:12 where the BCH, BSV people are like those people at the very beginning, or not really at the beginning, but in the timeline, 10:19 who fled the train early on and like froze to death immediately after like 15 seconds. 10:25 So that's kind of like my analogy is that we're all trapped on this, on BTC, which is the Snowpiercer train. 10:31 And it's not perfect here, but you shouldn't leave the train without a plan. 10:39 Well, we have a plan. 10:43 Well, what is the, you see, the thing is, I'm not sure that there is a plan though, 10:47 because Roger and people wanted to leave the founders of BCH originally, 10:54 they didn't actually solve the core problem of recovering from an error made by the protocol or an error made by the developers. 11:03 They just replaced one set of developers with another set. 11:07 And they just replaced one protocol with a different protocol. 11:09 So they didn't really solve the one problem that they had, I think. 11:13 I mean, you can certainly see it now with BCH and OMRI and BCH splitting into SV and then, you know, 11:22 Well, yeah, BCH has exactly the same problem. 11:28 Right. So how does BSV solve this problem of there being potential errors in the BSV protocol? 11:37 The problem is solved by recognizing that you have to do proof-of-work in order to convince people that something is better. 12:01 See, so like with proof-of-work, you have to lose with a 100% probability. 12:09 No, but it's an assertion about the BSV protocol itself. 12:14 And Drivechain is sort of saying that problems with Drivechain itself, notwithstanding, 12:20 if there's some kind of problem with layer one, BTC, Bitcoin Core, then you can escape to a different piece of software. 12:28 And maybe that would help you. 12:31 And so I'm asking about how does BSV, what if there's a problem with BSV? 12:36 And then it seems to me that you assert that BSV is infallible and there is no problem. 12:42 No, that's not what I said. 12:44 No, the problem is solved by saying that anybody who wants to lead has to do proof-of-work first. 12:54 But is that something true only of BSV or is that part of the BSV protocol or is there some other thing that's on top of BSV that can't be brought to any other piece of software? 13:06 It, well, it doesn't, it's not software, it's people. 13:11 So it's just a way of thinking about leadership. 13:15 I see. So you're saying that this is something that the BTC community is so far gone, they'll never learn. 13:23 They'll never be able to learn it if it's shown to be working very well. 13:27 Anybody who did learn it would just want to join with other people who are already doing it. 13:35 Isn't it possible that there are other features of each group? 13:42 And you could say, I like my group because it's bigger and that other group is doing really well. 13:49 So me and my group are going to copy that idea. 13:54 I mean, ideas are sort of free. 13:56 Well, there's no such thing as my group. 13:59 So you should be thinking about BSV with you in it versus BTC with you in it. 14:08 See, because what I'm trying to do is convince you to move over to BSV. 14:14 So your two alternatives are you in BTC and you in BSV. 14:25 I think I understand that. 14:28 But I still don't understand why. 14:30 So this idea has the quality that not only does it help BSV recover from errors, 14:37 but it can only be used among people who consider themselves in the BSV community. 14:45 What I'm trying to get at is there needs to be some kind of monopoly or some kind of group cohesion. 14:53 There is a monopoly, and that's the nature of money. 14:57 Money is a general medium of exchange. 15:02 So it doesn't have to do with what the good is. 15:06 It has to do with how everyone thinks about it. 15:09 So there's a monopoly with money. 15:13 I agree that there are network effects, very strong network effects of numerous kinds with money. 15:20 But that would only draw people further towards BTC versus BSV and versus trying to teach the new idea to be TC 15:31 and not staying on BSV in the hopes that it somehow prevails. 15:38 Okay. Mike, does a network effect in BTC exist? 15:46 I think yes, definitely. 15:49 Okay. Well, it doesn't because there has to be a benefit from being part of the network in order for there to be a network effect. 15:59 But what the network effect means is that it's better to join a bigger group because there's more connections with more people. 16:10 Okay. We got a comment coming in too. 16:13 Somebody is saying… 16:15 Wait, let me finish this. 16:17 The emperor is not done speaking. 16:19 No, I understand. 16:21 But there isn't any benefit to being connected to people in BTC because they've been hamstringed and they don't have the ability to benefit each other. 16:31 What we have in BSV is a bunch of people who are all benefiting each other. 16:38 So that is a network effect. That's what the network effect actually is. 16:46 That's a comment. 16:48 So here's the comment. It is directed at you, Paul. 16:52 It is saying, why are you asking these things in theory and not responding regarding things that are actually happening on the ground? 17:02 That's what people want to hear about. They want to hear more of that from you. Let's see. 17:07 Okay. Well, I'll keep that in mind. 17:10 This is about the future, so it has to be somewhat theoretical, doesn't it? 17:14 Yeah. 17:15 I mean, it hasn't… 17:16 That's not unfair. That's not an unfair comment. 17:18 So keep reading the comments while I… 17:21 Don't give the audience anything that they want. 17:24 Okay. 17:29 Certainly… 17:30 Okay, so by network effects… 17:32 Build the wall. 17:33 There's an awful lot we can say about network effects that exist in BTC. 17:38 So one is that all monetary revolution is extremely disruptive. 17:44 People make a lot of plans for the future based on how much money they have and other things like that. 17:51 And so if you have… anytime you try to introduce new money, that's extremely disruptive. 17:58 Very inconvenient for third parties that have nothing to do with large blocks, small blocks, that type of thing. 18:05 There are many more obvious ones. 18:08 The basic one is the development, which is that software developers have to invest a lot of time in learning a code base, 18:16 and obviously they prefer to learn a code base that they think has a future, 18:19 and the code base is more likely to have a future if other developers are interested in it. 18:24 So that's a very straightforward network effect. 18:28 I think similarly, for the exact same reason, you have investors might say, which of these coins have a future? 18:35 Well, this coin is number one. 18:37 It must be number one for some reason. 18:40 They may be like an efficient markets type person, or they may just think, 18:44 hey, if enough investors think like me, we'll all clump into the same thing, 18:47 and then our capital will help carry it to victory or something. 18:53 Those are two pretty basic – I mean, I guess those are three. 18:57 Money is inherently a giant network effect, and it's not so much the properties of the money, 19:06 it's just that people don't want to use barter. 19:10 They don't want to be confused about how much something is going to cost, 19:13 whether or not they're going to be able to buy it, things like that. 19:16 So they prefer to standardize in one monetary unit, as I think we would both agree. 19:21 But that gives a pretty strong advantage to the status quo. 19:25 Okay, I agree with everything that you said, except that if there's no economy, there's no network effect. 19:33 The network effect means that other people are valuable to you. 19:39 If you've got a coin that you can't use as money, 19:43 that means that the people aren't valuable to each other, no matter how many there are. 19:49 You see what I mean? 19:51 You're not benefiting from being more connected to more people in the BTC network. 19:58 Yes, but I mean, you were one of the first to say – you wrote a great essay about 20:02 it's not about the technology, it's about the money. 20:07 Yeah, but that was before I knew about small blocks. 20:10 I was always imagining that people were going to build an economy on Bitcoin. 20:17 That's always what I was thinking about when I was talking about the network effect. 20:23 But what does the fact that the blocks are currently small – 20:26 it doesn't make much of a difference to me, to be honest with you, 20:29 because either additional layers will work, or there'll be these sort of escape layers, 20:36 like Drivechain or like extension blocks, where it's sort of – 20:41 as far as most users are concerned, it's as if the block size increased. 20:45 Or there'll be some kind of moment when it's just generally acknowledged by – 20:51 I mean, it's more widely known that the small block strategy isn't going to work. 20:57 And at that point, the community will then hard fork. 21:02 So I don't even see any big relationship between the technology and the future of the coin, actually. 21:11 What's more competitive? 21:14 A network effect that could theoretically exist in the future, or one that already exists? 21:21 Obviously, one that already exists. 21:23 But don't you think that having the number one spot on CoinMarketCap 21:27 and having the most scientific papers written about it, 21:30 and having the most prominence? 21:36 They're not – people in BTC are not benefiting each other. 21:41 You benefit each other by creating goods and services that you sell for the coin. 21:47 That's the network effect. 21:50 That's an actually existing network effect. 21:55 You're just talking about a network effect that could hypothetically exist in the future 22:00 if people in BTC realize that small blocks are bad. 22:06 But it's actually better to – 22:11 think about the most rational person in BTC. 22:19 His best decision is just to leave and go to BSV. 22:23 Because then he can cooperate with the other cooperators. 22:28 And then what happens is BTC is left less rational than before. 22:35 No, I don't buy this. 22:38 Well, first of all, even if everything you said were true, 22:41 there's no – just that BTC has problems, 22:45 which, again, I don't agree with because I have tried to lay out some network effects, 22:51 just some related to being recognizable or being a software project, 22:58 having everyone coordinate the same software project 23:01 and having everyone coordinate their financial capital on investing in the same asset, 23:07 and not endlessly diluted. 23:09 But even if you were right, you still have a lot of work ahead of you 23:12 because you have to say that where everyone should move is from BTC to BSV, 23:18 where they could – every single status quo that is unsatisfying for some reason 23:23 has an infinite number of – or a near-infinite number of possible modifications to it 23:28 that might be better for some people. 23:31 And you just kind of assert that BSV is the end-all, be-all, 23:35 which I'm extremely skeptical of that for a lot of reasons. 23:40 Well, there's no such thing as a status quo 23:43 because everyone has a different idea of what the future holds. 23:49 And we're all in competition. 23:51 I just mean BTC. 23:52 I just mean BTC in the fact that it has the number one spot on CoinMarketCap. 23:56 That's basically what I'm talking about when I say status quo. 23:58 Okay, but an actual network effect means that people are creating goods and services 24:05 and exchanging them for the money. 24:08 Well, you're asserting that, but don't you agree with me 24:10 that there's something to the fact that the developers would prefer 24:14 to learn a codebase that they think has a future 24:17 and that the codebase is more likely to have a future if other developers are interested in it 24:22 and that they all want to go to little conferences and meetups with each other 24:26 and they all want to be talking about the same thing. 24:28 They all want to speak the same language. 24:29 They don't want to – you can't have everyone learn their own language. 24:32 No, I don't agree with that at all 24:35 because you can attract more developers without making anything better. 24:41 All of those developers being attracted to BTC are just learning how to make it worse. 24:46 Well, I agree that there's no guarantee then. 24:49 I'm just pointing out that that is a network effect. 24:54 That's not what I was talking about when I wrote my articles on network effects. 24:59 The way that – it's not a benefit. 25:03 People are not benefiting each other. 25:05 People are not benefiting each other if all they do is go to conferences and tell each 25:09 other how right they are. A benefit is producing a good or service. 25:18 No, I agree that the monetary network effects are different from those. I was just trying 25:24 to give – because you're determined to frame all network effects as related to the 25:33 development of an economy. But the way I see it, all of this stuff is sort of aspiring 25:40 to be money. It's aspirational in nature. None of it has triumphed yet. Actually, we're 25:47 in a kind of pregame to the main event. Instead, the beginning is kind of like how to coordinate 25:55 to find the other people who are like you. What you do get if you have the number one 26:05 spot on CoinMarketCap, you do get a lot of people who are committed to not being deviant 26:12 or not being too uncooperative. 26:15 Where are the other people who are like you? 26:20 I don't know. Oh, you mean the example? A lot of people might think – I think I mentioned 26:29 this before that if the coin is number one, you have investors and they just think, I 26:33 don't know what's going on. There's like the OpenCoinMarketCap and they see 50 coins 26:37 and they're like, I have no idea what's going on, but this one's number one and I want to 26:43 invest fast. I'm just going to pick this one and I'm sure it'll work itself out. It's like 26:49 buying a first class ticket. You don't know if you get a first class ticket, you get priority 26:54 boarding if you want it. You get extra space for your bag. You get to check bags. It's 26:58 like whatever you need, someone will get it for you somewhere. You just buy the most expensive 27:02 ticket and let the specialist sort of work it out. 27:06 That's one of the things I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say quite a few things. The 27:09 monetary network effect is different. As I tried to mention, it's no good to have – people 27:18 prefer using money to having barter and you can't have everyone use their own money. The 27:23 whole point of money is that it's this kind of standard unit. It's a standard measure 27:26 of purchasing power. They don't want troublemakers to fork things off unless it's a really good 27:39 reason. I don't say never do it. I don't say you should never hard fork or never try anything 27:47 that's totally new. I just say that you have to be aware of how inherently disruptive and 27:55 annoying it is. I think a lot of people would be like – I'll just conform to number one. 28:01 When there's a large number of diverse people involved in something, you can't just do something 28:06 just because you think it's better. You could be wrong or you could be right, but other people 28:13 might not yet believe you. That would make it coercion to just decide. Politics is a slow 28:20 thing, but people don't like it. I can see how people would be attracted to the stability of 28:28 BTC and repelled by the hard fork. That's something I've always believed. 28:32 So, you don't know where the other people like you are? 28:38 Well, presumably, they're like me except a lot quieter. They just buy BTC and they just wait 28:46 for something to be figured out. They believe, as I do, that if something were truly a much 28:56 better idea, then the developers would be fired by just a kind of natural process that 29:04 there would be a new hard fork when that information were more widely known. 29:10 Here's a comment coming in. Would it be possible to hear both sides say 29:16 their piece on cooperation, which was mentioned at some point earlier? 29:24 Maybe. Maybe I'll try to tilt a future answer towards that. I don't know. 29:30 I'll just say something about it right now. Cooperation means thinking about what other 29:37 people want and providing it for them in a way that earns you a profit. 29:52 Okay. What about if some thought leader in your group says that what the person wants 30:01 isn't something that they should have? What happens then? 30:04 There are no thought leaders. Anyone who's saying that he's a thought leader, 30:10 you should just stop listening to him. Okay. What about cases where 30:19 there's an inherent trade-off? So, like you just mentioned, you gave a big speech about 30:26 finding out what people want and giving it to them. But what about Luke Jr. who wants 30:29 small blocks? What are you going to do about that? Well, how much would you pay for them? 30:38 No, I don't know. That's a good question. 30:43 It's about what people want to pay for, not just what they want to demand. 30:52 That's a parallel argument for large blocks, you could say. 30:56 It's just that reduces to an argument that the status quo prevails. 31:07 Certainly nothing about giving people what they want or cooperating. 31:18 Large and small blocks aren't the product. The product is transactions. 31:26 So, that's what people pay for. 31:32 I mean, again, this is kind of why I asked that first question about what if there's some thought 31:37 leader in BSV who just says, well, you say you want that, and then just argues it away. 31:46 There are really people out there who really want small blocks. 31:49 This is a poker game. You can't have thought leaders. Anybody who tries to be a thought 32:01 leader is potentially someone who's using deception. It really should only be about 32:10 being an entrepreneur, not about politics. 32:15 Isn't this conversation supposed to be about how BSV enables cooperation? 32:20 And I'm trying to give you a clear example where some people want small blocks and no... 32:27 Those small blocks aren't a product. Okay, we're talking about cooperation in capitalism, 32:37 not politics. You're still in a political mode. 32:43 But it's not quite... Well, the hard fork is necessarily... 32:48 Every hard fork is political because it says instead of the computer deciding, 32:57 a bunch of humans are going to decide. That's one of the reasons why it's such a disaster. 33:02 If I hard fork, will the coins that I earn be worth more than the coins that other people are 33:15 mining? So it's still about entrepreneurship. It's not about politics. 33:22 I don't think that that... You're really going to try and say that BSV is this welcoming place 33:31 of cooperation. You really don't understand what I'm trying to say about that there are people out 33:37 there who will prefer the block size to be low and they can't get that on BSV. 33:42 I was trying to say that there are people out there who prefer the block size to be low and 33:48 they can't get that on BSV. Those people are uncooperative. You also have to be a cooperative. 33:54 What I wanted to get at, though, is that it's not actually welcoming. It's only welcoming to 34:02 the people that, according to you, meet some criteria for being cooperative. 34:09 Exactly. 34:14 Right. Well, there you go. 34:19 Wait a minute. Now let's go back. Where are the other people who are like you? 34:27 You said that the point is to find the other people who are like you. 34:36 They would be on the number one coin market cap coin just waiting patiently. 34:44 No, they're not. 34:45 I already gave a kind of strategy, this sort of Nash Equilibrium strategy where you hang 34:52 out on the number one coin. If any coin challenges it in a serious way, if there's a flippening, 34:59 then you lead the campaign to hard fork to that technology. 35:02 Well, but you avoid profit with that strategy. In order to do it correctly, you would have to 35:10 In order to do it correctly, you would have to pick the correct coin 35:14 before there's a flippening, because that's what makes you profit. 35:19 No, I don't understand. I buy one coin today, the number one coin, and now I'm guaranteed to win. 35:28 Whatever happens, I'm going to win. If number one coin wins, I win. If the number three coin 35:34 rises up and becomes super influential, then I just take the community from the number one coin 35:45 and all the people with big vested interests in the number one coin. 35:49 I hard fork to the technology of number three. Now I have the best community and the best technology, 35:55 and I win anyway, and it didn't cost me anything. 35:57 So I'm guaranteed to win. 35:58 Number one coin can go to zero overnight. 36:00 I know, but the hard fork that I just made will have the community of number one 36:07 and the technology of whatever the usurper community has. 36:16 Uh, okay. 36:22 So it only has nothing to do with any of the features. 36:23 I agree with that strategy. It's just that... 36:27 The vulnerability of the strategy is that there'll be something about the community 36:32 of the number three coin that is superior. 36:35 So I think this actually unravels a lot of mysteries. 36:38 Right. So it doesn't... 36:41 One mystery that I just have to... 36:44 No, let Paul go. Let Paul go. 36:46 I just have to say this about... because I've always wondered how it's possible that 36:51 Zcash does better than Zclassic, and I think this is the only... 36:55 And I think this is the only explanation that none of the technology actually matters, 37:00 which is paradoxical because... 37:02 See, Zcash has this, like, developer tax thing, 37:07 but Zclassic, as I understand it, or maybe I'm mixing up all these names or something, 37:12 but the point is there is a version of Zcash that forks to just delete the dev tax. 37:18 So you would think it would be superior in every way for the investor and for the user, 37:23 but instead that one crashed and burned completely, 37:26 and the one with the tax sort of, you know, is still alive, I guess. 37:33 But that doesn't make any sense at all, 37:34 except if you view it through this lens that the technology doesn't matter, 37:38 and all you're trying to do is build, in any way possible, a community that will 37:44 will prevail over the number one coin community at this moment of reckoning. 37:54 So I just have to bring that up because I've been trying to figure that out for years, 37:57 and I think this is the only explanation that exists. 37:59 What would be a better community than that which exists in BTC? 38:06 Well, I mean, I think all BTC needs is either Drivechain or something like Drivechain or 38:11 extension blocks or something, so that as long as there's, 38:16 if there's any disagreement over what the protocol should do, 38:19 that negative energy can be discharged in a productive direction. 38:24 And I think that it's clear that as the community grows and becomes more heterogeneous, 38:31 and there's more disagreement over, I mean, you saw earlier this week, 38:39 or last week, about variable names and all kinds of nonsense drama and things that 38:47 I think that it's only going to continue. 38:48 And so there really just needs to be a solution to that one problem. 38:52 And then the community will be sort of hyper-inclusive, and it will include everyone. 39:00 It will even include the people who Dan Krawitz thinks are not cooperators. 39:05 Even those people will be able to fit in to this new community. 39:12 Currently, the BTC community is totally trapped by a kind of stasis that has somehow evolved, 39:19 like a mimetic stasis that has kind of evolved. 39:24 And it's like about selling steak dinners and things. 39:27 It actually has nothing to do with Bitcoin, 39:29 like selling books and is a kind of parasite and selling stupid pieces of plastic. 39:36 And so it's kind of like there's a kind of weird thing going on, 39:40 but I think it ultimately won't make very much of a difference. 39:44 I don't know. 39:44 Maybe that didn't really answer your question. 39:47 Well, I mean, if somebody actually knows how to make Bitcoin successful, 39:55 why would he want to join BTC and wait around? 39:59 Well, again, I think it's like the Snowpiercer train, 40:01 where if you leave, you just die immediately. 40:04 Okay, but if somebody knew how to leave and be successful, 40:09 why would he stay on the train? 40:11 Yeah, well, I agree. 40:13 Yeah, if someone knows, I hope they'll tell me. 40:18 Okay, well, that's what I'm telling you. 40:19 I'm up in first class, but I also went off the train. 40:23 That is what I'm telling you. 40:25 I'm not convinced though, because the hard part is the ice and snow outside that kills you immediately. 40:31 You can't just sit around waiting for things to get better, 40:35 okay, because there's a better option. 40:39 BSV is the option? 40:40 Yes, because you can actually do things. 40:47 Because anyone who understood how to make Bitcoin successful 40:53 would just want to join BSV and help us. 40:58 That sounds a little circular to me, don't you think? 41:01 Yeah. 41:02 Well, where else can you be an entrepreneur? 41:09 Like, what other point is good for that? 41:12 I mean, what if we were in the back of the train and someone said, well, 41:18 what else can we do except be on this train? 41:20 And someone said, well, we can leave the train. 41:22 I'm saying, it sucks being in the back of the train. 41:27 It's better than being dead. 41:28 No, think about an entrepreneur. 41:31 Where can you actually be an entrepreneur in crypto? 41:39 What coin is good for seeking profit? 41:44 I think I can agree that at first, when people make a new thing, 41:49 it could be an altcoin or a hard fork. 41:52 No, BSV isn't a new thing. 41:55 BSV is as old as BTC. 41:59 I don't think I agree with that. 42:04 But anyway, the point is when there's a new community... 42:06 It goes all the way back to the Genesis block. 42:08 When there is a new community, then... 42:10 It's not a new community. 42:13 No. 42:14 Okay, what I'm trying to say is that when you have a smaller, 42:17 when there's a smaller number of people, it's less bureaucratic. 42:21 And so it's easier to start up new things. 42:23 People, there's more enthusiasm. 42:25 That's the point I'm trying to make. 42:26 I actually do dispute that. 42:30 We don't ever need bureaucracy in BSV. 42:33 I agree, but bureaucracy shows up anyway. 42:36 As soon as there's more people, it's a problem of scale and communication. 42:40 No, you don't need that. 42:46 You don't need a bureaucracy to be an entrepreneur. 42:49 All you do is figure out what other people want and seek profit. 42:53 We don't need a bureaucracy in BSV. 42:57 Bureaucracy is like noise or sewage or something. 43:01 It's just when there's too many people, it just shows up. 43:03 And you can just ignore it. 43:05 No, it's not like noise. 43:06 No, you can't ignore bureaucracy when you don't have a choice, 43:11 when it's the only way for people to coordinate. 43:16 These new projects start, and then there's idealism. 43:20 The idealists join. 43:22 And then it takes a lot of grit to ultimately see it through. 43:27 It's a big marathon to see it through to the end. 43:30 And then if you have people who are going to be constantly distracted by the next shiny thing, 43:34 then it'll only be another year. 43:38 And then there'll be BSVV and BSV whatever, Jimmy and Win Vision or something. 43:44 There'll be like constant splitting. 43:46 Why would it be like that? 43:49 It's already been like that. 43:51 It's every time these... 43:54 Okay, do you agree that splits reduce value? 43:58 Yes, the splits. 43:59 The thing about the splits is my view is that they are not competitive. 44:05 And that is a problem because it entrenches the monopoly of the existing protocol. 44:11 And in a way, I'm happy that it has such a monopoly. 44:16 I mean, it's better for my BTC investment. 44:20 But it's not good for progress. 44:22 But I agree with you that the splits are... 44:26 Well, they're anti-network effect and they're anti-money, 44:29 and they are a big distraction. 44:31 And yeah, I don't... 44:33 Okay, so BSV won't split. 44:35 They didn't do them. 44:37 Because people in BSV understand value. 44:41 So they won't split. 44:44 That's exactly why the BTC people don't split. 44:46 They did split. 44:49 No, this is exactly why the BTC people are against the hard fork so much. 44:56 Well, they didn't prevent it. 44:59 You can't prevent someone from hard forking BSV. 45:01 It doesn't work like that. 45:03 It's like stopping. 45:03 It's like saying, well, no one will declare war on... 45:05 You can because you can make people want to cooperate. 45:09 No, but you can never... 45:11 Every group has malcontents. 45:13 And after a certain amount of time, you can't stop some minority group in BSV 45:19 from splitting off. 45:21 Look, it's already happened. 45:23 Look into the group. 45:24 Look at what happened with BCH. 45:29 We can make offers, okay? 45:32 We can make people not want to split by making them offers. 45:35 But Paul's talking about something that has happened, 45:38 and you're talking about something you can do possibly in the future 45:41 to prevent something that's already happened over and over again 45:43 that Paul's referencing. 45:44 Right. 45:44 It's very common to say you can prevent this thing that's always happening. 45:48 I think BSV is kind of built for splits too, you know? 45:54 How so? 45:55 Because when people want to... 45:57 Founders are really cringe and make everybody want to split. 46:00 Well, I mean, I guess that's an option. 46:02 But just saying like, okay, well, I want this set of transactions 46:06 to be my version of BSV. 46:09 Like, yeah, I'm going to take the Genesis block 46:11 and all this stuff that came before this. 46:12 But like, this is what I want to use this like code subset for something, you know? 46:16 I'm not necessarily concerned with the larger BSV ecosystem, 46:20 but I'm concerned with the ability to use BSV technology. 46:28 Why would you be concerned about that? 46:30 I don't know. 46:30 Some particular application. 46:33 What do you mean? 46:35 Like, whether it's a business application 46:38 or like a nation state saying like, 46:40 oh, we're going to maintain our own version of BSV, 46:44 because of jurisdictional issues, law or something like that. 46:48 I mean, we have multiple forks of Bitcoin at this point. 46:51 We can't dispute that. 46:52 Like, there are obviously different sets of interests 46:55 about how it should be shaped. 46:59 In order to win, people have to make offers to each other, okay? 47:04 That's if people understood how to... 47:14 If people were really thinking about how to win, 47:17 they wouldn't want to split, right? 47:22 So the coin that's going to win isn't going to split anymore. 47:29 I agree with that. 47:30 But that's you're describing BTC as far as I'm concerned. 47:35 This is the exact same mistake that the BCH people made, 47:41 which is that they think that they have the one true perfect protocol. 47:47 And the only need is this one hard fork to get it. 47:50 That's why the hard fork is the ring of power. 47:52 No, that's not true. 47:56 They did a six month hard fork schedule on BCH. 48:01 So they don't think that they have the one true protocol. 48:04 They keep changing it. 48:06 Well, yeah, I think that's true. 48:08 But I mean, I hate... 48:10 It's the exact same problem every six months of the split. 48:16 So... 48:19 Yeah, but that's true. 48:20 But the point is, you know, he still put... 48:23 It's like he just swapped... 48:25 Why would somebody want to be in... 48:29 Why would somebody want to be in BTC 48:33 if he already knows how to benefit other people? 48:37 You see what I'm saying? 48:38 Like in BSV, we can all... 48:42 The only way that you can make BTC successful 48:48 is by teaching people there something they don't want to learn. 48:52 But it's something that people in BSV are already doing. 48:56 It's kind of ironic because our answers are the same. 49:00 Only the first part of our paragraphs are different 49:03 where I'm saying that every group has malcontents, 49:09 but people go along to get along, you know? 49:13 When people are adults, they settle. 49:16 They settle for... 49:16 They say this isn't perfect, but it's better than being alone. 49:24 Okay, but you don't have to do that with Bitcoin. 49:30 I mean, you say that... 49:34 You can find the other people who are like you in BSV. 49:46 That's where they are. 49:46 I think we may have to raise the what is money question at some point 49:49 because I'm thinking like... 49:51 I'm imagining if I go to Europe and everyone there takes euros 49:55 and I go up to the merchant knight and I tell them, 49:58 you can find the other people who are like you 50:00 and I try to get them to take Indian rupees or something. 50:06 And they're just going to be like, sir, we only take euros here. And I'm going to be like, you know, you don't understand. It's all about who can cooperate and finding the other cooperators. 50:18 Well, that's what you say. 50:19 They'll be like, what are you talking about? 50:21 But that is what it's about. 50:23 It really isn't. 50:25 Yes, it is. 50:33 But don't you understand what I'm trying to say? If you want to buy something in Europe, you need euros. And it has nothing to do with how good or bad euros are as money. 50:48 You can produce something in Europe and then only offer it for rupees. 50:58 Yeah, you can. But I think you might starve before you made the sale. I mean, you need to buy things to live. You need food. You need shelter. 51:12 Yeah. 51:14 Well, you said something about, you know, go along to get along. And that kind of reminds me of like a corporate tech job. 51:26 Yes, unfortunately, I agree. 51:28 Yeah, versus the entrepreneur who says, you know what, I'm going to change this. I think that's a thought I had in this. 51:36 Yeah, I agree that it's bad. I would prefer to have the best of both worlds, which is what my project Drivechain is about. 51:43 Okay. Who is able to produce food and shelter? 51:50 I don't understand. You're talking about the Europe example? There's a lot of, you know. 51:53 Who in the crypto market is able to produce food and shelter? 52:01 Well, as I said, I see this as kind of, you know, this is aspirational money. So we aren't kind of, it's not quite among the people in the United States who invest in Bitcoin. 52:17 It isn't. I think we're in a kind of like, we're in a kind of green room or something. It's a kind of, it's a kind of infant or a kind of larva. 52:28 And it's these things are taking shape where they will ultimately compete later. It's kind of like, you know, it's like you make if you're running a business, you try to make a profit today. 52:38 But you may also invest in your business to try and grow it in the future. You may prevail today if you don't make the appropriate investments and capture the commanding heights. 52:48 If you don't make the right thing, then you'll be crushed in a couple of years. 52:52 People can leave the Snowpiercer train if they can produce food and shelter, right? 52:57 Yeah. 52:58 Okay. So that's what we can do in BSV. You can't do that in another coin. 53:06 I'm skeptical of your claim that you can. 53:11 Here's a question for you. Have you tried Twitch? Have you logged on there? 53:16 Yeah, I have tried it. I think a lot of the stuff that is done, there's a lot of great stuff in both BCH and BSV. 53:27 And a lot of it is really user-friendly. And I think it's great. And it is a testament to the superior creative powers that are unlocked when people are broken. 53:36 I mean, again, I wish I don't, as I said, I don't want to be on the train. 53:40 Drive train is like a teleporter that can let people go on, teleport to whatever train they like. 53:46 What would convince you to get off the train? 53:48 Drive trains are every single other chain that gives you another route, though. 53:56 Wait, what would make you want to get off the train? 53:59 If I had an answer, one thing, I mean, I think you're way ahead of most people on this. 54:05 But as you know, I've already pitched this concept that the number one coin, the way I see it, the coin market cap is like a big hill. 54:15 And the number one spot is at the top of the hill. And there's like a fortress in there. 54:20 And the BTC is living in the fortress. 54:23 And so if you had a way to blow up the fortress, so like when that guy Mehmed destroyed Constantinople after it had stood for like a thousand years because he had giant cannons. 54:36 So you need the cannons, you need something that and what is the fortress to complete this metaphor? 54:41 As I've explained, the number one coin can always do this move. 54:47 It's completely asymmetric. They only they can do this move because they can do a move where they copy the tech of any usurper, any usurper that's going to flip in them or something. 54:56 And that's a move that they have and that the what's its people do not. 55:05 It's not as though if BSV prevailed over BTC, then BSV would suddenly hard fork to small blocks. 55:13 Right. So there's no symmetry. It's something an advantage that the number one coin has only. 55:20 And so it's extremely dangerous. And that's a big advantage. 55:26 And I don't see why I should sell some of my number one coins for these other all these other coins. 55:32 Wait, wait, wait. All the non number one coins. What would make you want to do that? 55:37 Some answer to that. So some answer that argument. 55:41 So if there was something. So it's funny because actually, I think this explains some. 55:45 It's about the community. I mean, do you. 55:49 I will answer more. I have more details, actually, which is because I think it explains a lot of what Ethereum does as well, where they get up on stage and they dance around like fools. 55:59 But actually, it's a kind of joke to try and make Ethereum more repulsive to Bitcoiners to trick them into and then to assemble a completely different coalition of people. 56:12 So, yeah, I agree. It's completely about the people. There's not necessarily any connection. 56:16 I mean, it's all open source technology and the UTXO step is publicly available. 56:21 Every single full node calculates it for every block chain. So none of the technology has any significance at all. 56:26 In my in my point of view, as far as what which which coin will prevail. 56:32 OK, what would make you believe that people who got off the train wouldn't be frozen? 56:41 Like what objective evidence would you be looking for? 56:45 Well, that's a good question, because it's like I think you wouldn't know until it happened. 56:53 So that's bad for both of our arguments, because I think it's an impasse because there's no I'm not sure there is a test. 57:01 If it could be demonstrated, one thing that would be a good sign would be if everyone in BSV was well aware of the disadvantages of hard forking. 57:10 So if they had some kind of way of proving to me that they wouldn't hard fork and you just say, well, they won't because they know it's a bad idea. 57:18 And I'm not convinced by that. But if people in BSV knew the dire situation and yet they were sort of laughing behind the scenes anyway, 57:30 which is what I think the Ethereum people do when they do this, you know, this is silly videos and other silly cultural things they do. 57:38 They think this is great. BTC is never going to see this coming. 57:44 So if there was a lot of awareness, I mean, the more whoever has the most awareness is obviously the most dangerous person or one of the most dangerous people in the room. 57:54 And so if you're more aware than you can predict everything that the other person does. 58:01 So that would be obviously be a pretty big green flag. 58:06 But you see, it's not it hasn't gone very well, has it? Because actually the investment, the fork investments have underperformed BTC, have they not? 58:14 So one would think if you could predict you would not have been owning this whole time or maybe something else. I don't know. 58:22 Well, they have gone well, because you can actually buy things with BSV. 58:30 So you're discounting the benefit of an actual economy by saying that it's technology that you can buy with BSV, like Twitch or something. 58:42 Twitch can be someone could copy Twitch, make a Twitch BTC or something. 58:47 Would it be more beneficial to them to join the BSV economy and do something else than it would be to copy Twitch? 58:59 Yes, it's true that if the more kind of stubborn the BTC community is to new ideas, the greater the danger that they will be unable to respond to the genuine threat by executing the copy strategy. 59:17 So that's true. But I think, you know, when the chips are down and when it's as you say, BTC can go to zero overnight. 59:27 I think the next morning, no one will be listening to, you know, no one will be listening to Vladimir. 59:34 No one will be listening to Adam Back. No one will be listening to safety. 59:38 So if that were to ever happen, then it would be it would all be to the new leader who would, I think, be able to say, OK, we have the best community. 59:49 So we have the biggest community. So we will now copy everything and we'll make whatever BTC, Twitch or whatever it is. 1:00:01 But, yeah, Twitch is clever because it's building the social network is running the network effect the other way. 1:00:07 So it's saying we're going to have the network effect already in Twitch and then use it as like an anchor. 1:00:13 But I don't think I've been on Twitch and Twitter has its own network effects. 1:00:18 So it's like smothering. It's very hard to prevail over Twitter, even though Twitter is doing everything it can to screw up its network effect. 1:00:27 It's so strong that it's just very healthy. I mean, Twitter is that we promoted this event on Twitter. 1:00:36 And so Twitter, what is the. 1:00:44 Like, do you agree that there is a present benefit to being in the BSV economy that doesn't exist in the BTC economy? 1:00:52 Do you agree with that? Right. 1:00:54 Well, I think I certainly agree that every single coin has costs and benefits to being in their community and that a lot of stuff is happening in BSV that is. 1:01:06 Well, but what I'm saying is an actual economy is a present benefit that doesn't exist in the other coins. 1:01:14 I'm not sure that I. 1:01:19 I don't know if I agree that there is a like a BSV. 1:01:24 You know, I think you're trying to say that because there's Twitch, there's a BSV economy or something. 1:01:30 I'm not sure I want to walk into that trap just now. 1:01:33 No, I'm not saying because there's Twitch. 1:01:37 What do you mean by BSV economy then? 1:01:39 Well, I mean, BSV has that, you know, something else couldn't have. 1:01:45 No, no, I'm talking about a present benefit. 1:01:48 So I'm not talking about something that other people couldn't have. 1:01:52 You're saying that's inherently BSV. 1:01:54 No, I'm not. No, no. 1:01:56 My question was, there is a you agree that there's a present benefit to being in BSV. 1:02:01 Because I'm not saying that other people couldn't copy it. 1:02:05 I'm saying that they just don't have it now. 1:02:09 Do you agree with that? 1:02:10 Yes, I think that sounds fine. 1:02:12 Okay, so you have to, you can either get that benefit now, or you can copy it while other people are getting it and you're not. 1:02:26 See, do you agree with that? 1:02:32 Sorry, I actually just spilled some water just now and it was a little distracting. 1:02:36 What did you say? 1:02:37 I said, you can get that benefit now, or you can try to copy it while you're not getting it and someone else is. 1:02:48 Yeah, that's true. 1:02:50 Well, I thought that was a little bit what I was trying to say about Twitch where it's like this anchor where people are already doing something. 1:02:56 Part of my position is that if you onboard people to crypto, or if someone is onboard, like let's say you onboard someone to BSV from the US dollar land. 1:03:08 Part of my position is that they're de facto onboarded to like basically every other cryptocurrency at the same time because they all have a lot more in common than differences, especially if you have like some kind of, you know, they have like the Jaxx mobile wallet or something. 1:03:23 They all have like a similar thing where there's a word, 12 word seed or some kind of seed or something. 1:03:29 And, you know, like a QR code. 1:03:32 So basically you onboard people to the land of crypto kind of first. 1:03:36 And I don't see the, then when they're encrypted, they decide, okay, crypto is interesting. 1:03:44 What am I going to buy? 1:03:46 Because what do I think will ultimately prevail is money. 1:03:49 Then I think they go with number one for this fortress reason that I. 1:03:54 Okay, well, can you describe this fortress? 1:03:58 What is the nature of the fortress? 1:04:01 Okay, well, first of all, the, as I said, it's like a coin market cap is a hill. 1:04:08 And as the further you get up on coin market cap, you're a higher and higher spot on the hill. 1:04:13 And BTC is in the number one spot. 1:04:16 But not only are they on the best spot on the hill, but the number one spot has a special fortress around it. 1:04:21 And the hill is like those network effects about people preferring to have one money instead of two. 1:04:30 You know, you need euros if you want to spend money in Europe, that type of thing. 1:04:36 The number one spot, the fortress is a combination of being the number one spot and being the status quo. 1:04:43 So maybe that wasn't clear. 1:04:45 I mean, the status quo is good because of the whole live by the fork, die by the fork thing that we already spoke about. 1:04:51 Okay, no, I got it. 1:04:55 And then the second thing is the fear of miscoordinating. 1:04:58 Okay, so. 1:04:59 People don't want to leave and go to one hard fork and why one or another and they say, well, you know what, since so many things will just lead to me losing all my money immediately. 1:05:10 Instead, what I'm going to do is just stay where I am until I can figure out what to do. 1:05:14 And that's the most most people are like that. 1:05:16 And that gives the status quo a lot of energy. 1:05:19 So being number one and being status quo, that's the fortress. 1:05:23 Okay, so. 1:05:29 The the the fortress has to do with the the having the biggest network effect and being able to copy other coins. 1:05:40 Right. 1:05:42 Yes. 1:05:43 Okay, it's very important that you're right. 1:05:45 I forgot. 1:05:46 That's the third element, which is that the number one coin has a special strategy available to it that the others do not have always at the last moment, kind of. 1:05:57 If you can't beat him, join him. 1:05:58 But stealing the technology and keeping your UTXO set and dumping the old UTXO set for the usurpers or something like that. 1:06:07 Three kind of legs of the fortress. 1:06:10 Okay, let's talk about this hill idea. 1:06:12 Because I think that you're mistaken on that. 1:06:17 A higher valuation indicates higher expectations of success. 1:06:26 And that's all it indicates. 1:06:27 It doesn't indicate that there is a bigger network effect. 1:06:33 It's just that people believe in success more. 1:06:37 But I agree that if you have a lower price, you're lower on the hill. 1:06:43 But it's also paradoxically a better investment. 1:06:45 So it sort of cancels out. 1:06:47 Well, no, I'm just I'm just saying expectations of success aren't the same thing as being anywhere close to success. 1:06:56 Wait, wait, wait. 1:06:58 You're talking about this coin market cap as a hill, like as if somebody who's higher up on the list has higher ground in a conflict. 1:07:08 But I'm saying that that's not true. 1:07:13 They just have people believe in them more. 1:07:15 Like they have more belief in success. 1:07:20 But that's not what's really the higher ground. 1:07:26 I think it is, actually. 1:07:27 I mean, even I can talk about why I think it is. 1:07:30 But I would like to point out that I think a lot of people do agree. 1:07:33 You do see a lot of other people talking. 1:07:36 And I know that this isn't worth very much, especially among the two of us. 1:07:40 But on social media, you do see, for example, someone will say something like, then XYZ coin will fall out of the top 10. 1:07:48 And that would be terrible. 1:07:49 So I think this is actually a little bit more of a mainstream view. 1:07:55 I think a lot of people hold this view. 1:07:56 That doesn't necessarily make it true. 1:07:58 I mean, the reason why I think it's true is that I don't think things like this are completely neutral. 1:08:03 I do think that, for example, they can always break a tie, right? 1:08:07 Like if you have two things that are basically the same community, same technology, but already one of them is in the top 10 and the other one is like in the bottom 30 or something, then that would break the tie. 1:08:20 I'm sure you would agree, and it would probably be decisive even if it weren't quite a tie. 1:08:27 I think it would help a lot if the two coins are very similar. 1:08:31 It would be a big advantage. 1:08:35 I mean, no. 1:08:41 I mean, like prices in equilibrium, prices are supposed to reflect the actual factors that contribute to success. 1:08:53 I agree with that. 1:08:57 They don't have to at any particular time. 1:09:00 Like just because a price is what it is does not mean that it is actually in proportion to the odds of success in the real market. 1:09:18 Well, certainly. 1:09:20 So you have to talk – well, I think that you need to think about the factors that produce success which are independent of price in order to actually win because that's how you know which coins are undervalued. 1:09:41 I agree with that, but I don't think that these are like the price of – I mean, I guess what I would say is that one of the things that makes money successful – I mean, money has all these properties, right, divisibility, portability, blah, blah, blah, but one of them is recognizability. 1:10:02 And if you could cast a magic spell on a $20 bill such that it was physically unchanged but for some reason people wouldn't recognize it, then it would just de facto become a worthless piece of paper. 1:10:16 So one of the properties of money is recognizability, and you see this a lot when you try to talk to lay people about Bitcoin that one of the first things that almost everyone asks is who accepts it or I heard that's getting big lately. 1:10:33 Some people want to know what other people know about Bitcoin. 1:10:36 That is a rational criterion. 1:10:39 Right. 1:10:41 Yeah. 1:10:43 One has a higher market cap. 1:10:46 That is pretty strong evidence that it is more widely known about, accepted, has more pull in the investing community. 1:11:00 It's more dangerous. 1:11:07 It has a higher position in the hill. 1:11:09 It's higher ground. 1:11:12 If you were wanting to assess the expected success of BSV, what you would look at is how the people who are using it now look at it. 1:11:26 I agree that there's no guarantee. 1:11:29 It's not as though – yeah, this is annoying for anyone who – all proponents of the efficient markets hypothesis. 1:11:35 Then if someone was always going to point out, oh, what about this price that didn't do that or whatever, I don't think the prices are like omniscient information from God that is perfectly infallible in every way. 1:11:48 There's even an EMH joke that says something like today's price is always right, but yesterday's price was always wrong or something like that. 1:11:57 I would like to point out that when I talk about the hill and the fortress, those are all the coins on the hill shooting at each other with like bows and arrows and stuff like that. 1:12:08 So it isn't about the investors making money. 1:12:13 If you want to make money, you would be more interested in a cheaper coin, but I'm just saying when the coin – since we're already – 1:12:21 Sorry, I disagree with that one. 1:12:23 Making money means figuring out which coin is going to win and just getting as much of it as possible. 1:12:31 Well, that's what I agree as well. 1:12:35 If you knew some secret thing about – what I'm saying is if you somehow knew something that one coin would win, or if you knew that somehow you could cause one coin to win and the options were an expensive coin and a cheaper coin, you would buy the cheaper coin because you could get a higher ROI. 1:12:53 That's all I was saying about that. 1:12:56 Okay, good, great. You're already almost there then. So what would you do to ensure that any coin would win? 1:13:06 Well, I don't know if I – I don't know how well that question even interfaces with my point of view because as I've said, the way I see it, there's one guy has a fortress on the top of the hill, and it's quite – I don't know if anyone would know what it takes to even storm this fortress. 1:13:27 Okay, but if you wanted to take a challenge, how would you storm the fortress? 1:13:32 Well, I mean, there are a lot of weaknesses in the fortress. So one is that the culture in BTC is like winding down and becoming sort of decadent. 1:13:42 So it could be a lot like Rome and the Visigoths where – I mean, we haven't seen that much actual progress. 1:13:51 Well, you saw just a few days ago how divided people were over like the silliest variable name change controversy, which is like something of basically no significance whatsoever, but it became this big thing, and there's a lot of angry arguing about it. 1:14:11 So yeah, I would push more on that lever, and then I would pretend to be a big fan of all the dumb sociopaths in BTC and suck up to them so that they further drive the community into stasis. 1:14:26 Yeah, there's almost nothing that you can't – if the wrong culture takes over, there's nothing that – there's no advantage that's so great that you can't still screw it up. 1:14:40 So it's not as though it's an impregnable fortress. It's true that BTC, the culture has switched from Bitcoin versus the banks. 1:14:50 It has switched to if we just defend everything exactly the way it is, then we, the chosen people, will ascend into paradise while doing no work. 1:15:01 And obviously, that's not a very – 1:15:03 Obviously, that's not a very helpful culture, but I do think that – 1:15:06 Wait a minute. You're doing a really good job losing this debate, I think. 1:15:09 I know. 1:15:16 Can I suggest an idea about storming the fortress? 1:15:20 But all I'm saying is I'm not optimistic that any of this is going to work or that it even matters, because as I've said, I don't think that – 1:15:28 I just want to suggest an idea. 1:15:30 All right. 1:15:32 Okay. So remember that we talked about a present benefit of BSV existing that the other coins don't have. 1:15:44 And in order to gain that present benefit, in order to gain that benefit, BTC has to copy BSV. 1:15:58 But it can be the case that a person who learns faster would want the present benefit. 1:16:12 You see what I mean? 1:16:13 So then BTC will never learn because BSV will be attracting the fastest learners. 1:16:22 Well, I agree with that. 1:16:23 In fact, I wrote a blog post two years ago called IMAX Imposed Mutual Exclusivity for Features, which is about how to stop – 1:16:36 it's about how you would stop BTC, basically. 1:16:40 I mean, it's written in a more general way, but it is kind of about this problem of how to stop BTC from copying a better – 1:16:47 like how you would hard fork in a way that would actually be threatening to BTC. 1:16:52 And the purpose of writing the article was to make innovation better because the fact that BTC can copy technology means that it's not threatened by altcoins, 1:17:05 and it can afford to get lazy, which I think it kind of has gotten a little lazy. 1:17:10 But I have to say that it's not – you mentioned about how I agreed with you that BSV has some benefits. 1:17:16 What I really say is that all the coins have benefits. 1:17:19 There are pros and cons, and I think a lot of the benefits – when I said that, I remember trying to bring this up – 1:17:27 that a lot of the benefits that these smaller coins have is just that they are newer, and in fact, they're lower down on the hill, 1:17:39 which makes it easier for people to cooperate because they all share the same goal of doing better. 1:17:45 But once the community grows and sees some success, they will be more infighting. 1:17:50 This is like a timeless principle. Whenever there's some big, ominous threat, everyone works as a team. 1:17:57 But once you're on top, then all the bickering and animosity begins. 1:18:05 Okay, so you're not convinced that BSV has a present benefit that the other coins don't have. 1:18:12 I would say the benefit is it's not sustainable. 1:18:16 No, but you understand what I'm saying, though. 1:18:19 If there was something like that, then that would be an avenue for storming the fortress. 1:18:25 It's in Verona that I wrote this post, and in the post I did write something about how you want to control the rate at which other people learn information about the feature. 1:18:36 So I agree with you about that, that what you want is for people to be frustrated, and you want them to defect as soon as possible. 1:18:43 You don't want them to stay and try and convince people in the fortress that it's a good idea. 1:18:49 You just want them to say, you know, fuck this, I'm out. 1:18:54 And then, like on Monday, some people will learn and leave, and then Tuesday some people will learn and leave, and Wednesday some people will learn and leave. 1:19:03 Eventually there won't be enough people in the fortress. 1:19:06 I'm sorry, but I think that there's a big mistake in what you're saying, because not all the people in the fortress are worth coaxing out. 1:19:17 Right, I agree with that. 1:19:20 I mean, if you have a fortress of people who can't ever learn, then you don't need to coax them out, because they're never going to gain that present benefit. 1:19:36 Well, I think some people, I think not everyone is good for the community. 1:19:41 This is the geeks, mops, and sociopaths story has played out in Bitcoin, and there are a lot of people who just fleece Bitcoiners for money to get them to, you know, come to events or whatever, or just for their own ego. 1:19:59 And they are kind of parasites on Bitcoin, and obviously it would be ideal to keep those or attract more parasites to BTC if you were trying to sabotage it. 1:20:13 But I don't think that, you know, you've done a good job of getting me to talk all about this, but as I've said, I'm not convinced that it's, I just don't think it's good enough, especially for something like BSV, where, I mean, I think the BCH fork was kind of messed up from the get-go, and BSV is not a fork of BTC, it's a fork of BCH, so it inherits problems of BTC. 1:20:41 BTC is also a fork of Bitcoin Cash. 1:20:46 Well, yeah, I understand what you mean by that. That's true, but, you know, you would agree with me that if I search the Bitcoin Cash GitHub, I'm going to find a commit somewhere where it types in a certain date, which will correspond to August 1st, 2017. 1:21:08 And it will probably be encoded in Unix time, and that date will be a kind of switch in the protocol that switches it to a different line of code than, and in BTC, there'll be no such reference. 1:21:26 Well, yeah, there would, because there would be SegWit. 1:21:30 Right. 1:21:31 Oh, that's true, but that's a coincidence, you know, that this happens to be August 1st. 1:21:37 Yeah, I agree, those are forks. 1:21:40 Okay, but, so anyway, I still think that you are... 1:21:45 No, but that's actually quite an important point, don't you think? 1:21:48 No, I don't agree with that, no, I mean, because, like, BTC had already changed a bunch of stuff before. 1:22:01 I agree that every time there's a big change to the protocol. 1:22:05 Especially SegWit was a huge change to the protocol, to the point where people didn't even get the same block, or even really the same block header, because it's no longer the Merkle tree. 1:22:15 Yeah, but a change later, a change later could just be going back, it could be revoking an earlier change. 1:22:22 Yes, well, it could be, but I'm just saying what actually happens in BTC is that there have been these soft fork events where the protocol has done some kind of upgrade. 1:22:43 And there have been, one of those soft fork events, at least, was done via a certain, you know, a predefined time. 1:22:55 But BCH's split from BTC is one of those things, so it did split off and make a new thing. 1:23:07 Well, but there wasn't any, there wasn't any action on the part of the people holding the coins, which made them go in either direction, they just went in both directions at the same time. 1:23:26 So, there isn't... 1:23:30 The protocol for BCH underwent this specific change, there's a specific date and there's also a specific one, somewhere a digit one became the digit eight. 1:23:42 Yeah, but... 1:23:43 Block size increase, so those are things, specific details that are inherent to BCH that BTC is totally ignorant of. 1:23:53 It could have been, as far as BTC knows, the date was, you know, August 2nd, and instead of an eight, it was 40 or some other number. 1:24:02 So, these are the details of that one commit to find BCH, but BTC ignores them. 1:24:07 Well, yeah, but what really matters is the people. 1:24:11 So, what I'm saying is that it's illiterate because the people holding the coins didn't make a choice either way, they just went in both directions. 1:24:22 That's fine, I think that's fine. Obviously, the hard fork is much better, as you and I have long discussed, the hard fork is much better than an altcoin. 1:24:31 My problem with the hard fork is that they're not competitive enough, is what I'm trying to say. 1:24:36 I wish they were more of a threat and could induce everyone to compete and stay focused on their objective goal of progress in the real world. 1:24:49 Instead of becoming a weird self-referential, like, kind of pseudo-academic bureaucratic ego thing that is just about paying salaries to each other. 1:25:01 That would be better. I would prefer it if every hard fork... 1:25:06 My ideal situation would be something like every hard fork just gets half the market cap on day two, and then they fight it out from there, or something like that. 1:25:16 But, you know, obviously that doesn't happen. 1:25:18 Okay, well... 1:25:26 I guess I don't have... well, I have one more thing to discuss, I guess, which is... 1:25:36 Can I continue then on that topic if you want to? Because I have a couple more things to say about that topic. 1:25:42 Oh, okay, yeah. 1:25:44 So I think that it's kind of... another thing that would be ideal would be is if... 1:25:50 Well, first of all, as you and I have already discussed, the BCH replay protection situation was basically the opposite of what it should have been. 1:25:59 And certainly the idea of doing it kind of, like, almost in secret in August, and then it only being, like, the alternative, the official alternative months later in November, that's, like, one of the worst things you could possibly do. 1:26:16 And it sort of almost introduces this weird, like, pre-mine kind of aspect to who's, like, owning the coin and when exactly this information was revealed to potential investors and other things like that. 1:26:27 But one thing that could... a very tangible thing that I think would make all hard forks a lot more competitive is if they would just have some kind of patch set where... 1:26:42 Or some kind of script that just goes through the BPC source code and just makes all the changes to that code so that there's no need... there's as few differences as possible between the two code bases. 1:26:56 So, ideally, there would just be the one commit for BCH that would say, this is the commit that defines BCH. 1:27:05 On this date, the block size will go up to this. 1:27:08 Whatever else will happen, the sigops will go to this, the network magic will go to this, whatever. 1:27:13 The point is just one little commit anyone can read. 1:27:16 And then after that, you just do nothing and you just wait for BTC to do some other software release. 1:27:21 And when they do that in the future, you just say, okay, here's what I have to change for this to make it compatible with BCH. 1:27:29 And then you just do stuff like that. 1:27:32 So that's something I think... 1:27:35 There's no need... I mean, BCH is currently like thousands of commits ahead of BTC. 1:27:42 Many of them are frivolous. 1:27:45 And any single commit... I mean, the diff alone in HTML is like 15 megabytes or something. 1:27:55 So any line of code could contain some kind of disastrous... 1:28:02 Well, yeah, Bitcoin was being screwed over from both sides when the split happened. 1:28:10 So this is just my example of how it is that the hard forks are not competitive enough to even compete with BTC. 1:28:20 So this is weird because it's a strange argument that I'm trying to make, which is that I wish that... 1:28:25 I wish it were easier to attack the BTC fortress in a way because you would attack it by a hard fork and there'd be more progress in the long run. 1:28:35 Well... 1:28:37 Unfortunately, it's not because everyone's determined to do these very strange things. 1:28:42 But now BSV has inherited all this code from BCH and now it is like a giant mess. 1:28:53 But people can just write their own implementations. 1:28:57 There doesn't need to be a... 1:29:00 Maybe we could do that. 1:29:02 But the problem is who will prevail is more of a network effect thing yet again. 1:29:07 If mine disagrees with... 1:29:11 If I'm for BCH, I mean, BCH is a bad example because they're about to split again. 1:29:15 So they have an even bigger problem than this. 1:29:17 But if I try to make my own BSV implementation and it differs from the prevailing, the one that currently prevails, then who are people going to side with? 1:29:28 They're going to side with whichever one more people are siding with. 1:29:32 No, I mean, you have to get it to work the same if you're going to make an alternate implementation. 1:29:39 Yes, but now I have to go through theirs. I have to learn theirs line by line. 1:29:44 I have to find every bug. 1:29:46 Every bug has to be exactly the same because otherwise it'll fall out of consensus, or it's at risk of falling out of consensus. 1:29:52 Well, I mean, if it does, you can just fix it. 1:29:55 This may be true. 1:29:57 I don't know. 1:29:59 I would go through anyway to learn all the ways that I may need to fix it or may not need to fix it. 1:30:08 Or just for troubleshooting reasons, I may end up having to do all this work to learn theirs. 1:30:14 It's still expensive to compete. I want it to be very cheap to compete. 1:30:20 Okay. 1:30:28 We've got a second here. 1:30:30 You had one other set of questions or points you wanted to make, Daniel. 1:30:36 I just think that... 1:30:39 No, I'm done. 1:30:41 I'm done. 1:30:42 Okay, well, if there are any last closing thoughts, we can kind of steer towards that and then wrap up on the hour, if that sounds good with you guys. 1:30:53 I have a question. 1:30:59 A lot of people in here have been around for quite a while. 1:31:05 When a hard fork happens, you're no longer on one train. 1:31:10 You're now on two trains. 1:31:16 I think the question I have is... 1:31:20 Paul, you said you'd like to get off the train, but you're not convinced that it's a good outcome for you. 1:31:28 Right. 1:31:30 However, if you already had pre-split coin, one thing that I think about is... 1:31:38 There's kind of two camps. 1:31:41 I'm going to be on both trains. 1:31:44 Bitcoin is the sum of all the forks. 1:31:48 Pre-split coin, I was going to leave it pre-split and ride it out with both. 1:31:54 Obviously, that doesn't work when you're trying to add to your position. 1:31:58 If you make changes to pre-split things, i.e. I'm going to sell the fork to fortify my position inside the fortress, that would be an indicator. 1:32:10 I'm not asking you guys to talk about that unless you feel comfortable doing it. 1:32:15 That would be one question. 1:32:16 The second question is, can you think about Drivechain as a force field around the fortress? 1:32:28 First of all, I wish it were the case that every hard fork landed you on a different train. 1:32:34 What I really think happens is that you're cloned into two people, and one of them is 15 feet in Euclidean space to the left. 1:32:44 He dies instantly. 1:32:50 I wish that it did. I'm very empathetic to the strategy of just holding all forks. 1:32:55 I think that's a pretty good idea. 1:32:57 Every decision you make should be motivated by some kind of differential knowledge that you have. 1:33:03 It depends on what generation of Bitcoiner you are. 1:33:06 Most people that I talked to learned about Bitcoin. 1:33:14 Everyone thought that Bitcoin was a totally stupid idea, but we knew that it had the potential for greatness. 1:33:19 That was long before Dan Larimer and Vitalik Buterin threw a bunch of chaos into crypto with all these weird ideas, and long before ICOs. 1:33:29 If that's what you did, because as an investor, you only have 24 hours a day. 1:33:39 You have to invest your time in learning and then make it some kind of financial investment. 1:33:46 It's smart to just stick with what you did. 1:33:50 You did the due diligence first. 1:33:52 Is Bitcoin a stupid idea? No. 1:33:55 Are altcoins a stupid idea? Yes. 1:33:58 Unless you've done a lot more in-depth research, you should just hold all the forks. 1:34:05 That's reasonable, and you shouldn't undo that unless you have a lot of reasons. 1:34:10 The factors determining which fork prevail, I think, are very, very different from will some crypto prevail over fiat currency. 1:34:22 It's extremely different. 1:34:23 For starters, we know that the US government is not going to respond to Bitcoin by dramatically redoing the tax structure so that it's a Georgia's land value tax, 1:34:36 immediately legalizing all drugs, prostitution, and capital flight, and eliminating the income tax. 1:34:45 We know that they won't do any of those things. 1:34:47 The advantage that crypto has over fiat is basically a very powerful one. 1:34:56 The second question is, is Drivechain a force field? 1:35:00 Drivechain lets you teleport around to wherever you like. 1:35:04 I think it would be like a force field around the number one coin because now you don't even have a pretext for competing with the coin. 1:35:11 You can't even say, I really like the term completeness or I really like ring signatures. 1:35:19 Drivechain lets you wormhole into other projects, basically. 1:35:23 Yeah, but it's for that reason that you would... 1:35:26 How do you not see that as the same thing as holding the forks and then you get a hard fork? 1:35:32 It's very easy. Okay, that's a very good question. 1:35:34 The difference is the new people who become onboarded, the new people who are just learning today for the first time about Bitcoin, 1:35:44 and to them, all these things look the same. 1:35:49 They will be biased towards the coins that are further up on the hill. 1:35:57 The other thing is UTXO sets will unravel on the hard forks. 1:36:02 In my view, the lower valued coin of the fork will become an altcoin slowly over time as the UTXO set diverges, 1:36:16 and then it will eventually just de facto have altcoin status. 1:36:20 But yeah, one of the main benefits of Drivechain is that there's no need to argue about having any hard fork, 1:36:28 and there's no need to leave Bitcoin for some other thing like Zcash because you can just do it in Bitcoin. 1:36:34 Same unit. 1:36:36 So they exchange at par. 1:36:38 There are different pieces of software that can exchange at par. 1:36:41 So yeah, it's like a force field, I'm sure. 1:36:45 I don't know. 1:36:46 We do have a question here. 1:36:48 I think it's for Daniel. 1:36:50 So how can anyone actually buy food and shelter with BSV and not BTC or ETH? 1:36:59 I don't know that that distinction matters. 1:37:02 But yeah, who are your food and shelter, your BSV food and shelter providers, Daniel? 1:37:08 Oh yeah, so that's a metaphor because we don't actually do food and shelter in BSV yet. 1:37:15 But what I meant was that we have an economy where people are producing things for each other that they actually need. 1:37:27 But yeah, if civilization collapsed, we wouldn't be doing very well with what we have now. 1:37:35 But my point is that we have what is required to survive out in the cold, in Paul's metaphor. 1:37:53 And it's just capitalism. 1:38:00 And so that's not something that you can learn by just copying features. 1:38:10 That's not something that people in the other coins actually have, as far as I can tell. 1:38:22 So in summation here, Paul, are you moving all of your holdings to BSV this evening? 1:38:31 That's what everybody wants to know. 1:38:33 No, I don't think so. 1:38:35 Not sure about that. 1:38:37 I have sort of an open mind. 1:38:39 I have a little bit of BSV, but I haven't confirmed to play with. 1:38:45 He's a BSV maximalist. 1:38:47 Well, he's lying about not wanting to buy BSV. 1:38:52 Right, clearly. 1:38:57 Do you guys have any last comments? 1:38:59 I thank you both for taking the time this Sunday, and I apologize for the technical complications. 1:39:04 You never know what's going to happen in this high-tech world we live in here in Party Line Chat. 1:39:12 Well, my closing comment is that Paul is the smartest person in BTC. 1:39:19 And he still doesn't know what BSV has. 1:39:26 So they're not going to learn it. 1:39:32 Apocalypse. 1:39:34 That could be true. 1:39:36 Both parts of that. 1:39:37 I definitely think that a lot of people in BTC do ponder the impression that it's because of the great technologists there. 1:39:50 Or it's because of the great code or whatever, I don't know. 1:39:56 It's because of the great Twitter defense, right? 1:39:59 If it weren't for the legions of people defending BTC on Twitter and the YouTube videos, 1:40:04 then BTC would be a sitting duck and it would just be blown up immediately. 1:40:10 And that would be the end of BTC. 1:40:12 But I don't agree with any of that. 1:40:14 I really see it as a kind of runaway train that's beyond anyone's ability to sort of help it or hinder it. 1:40:23 And this is the weird kind of point of view that I have. 1:40:26 And that is why it is an interesting idea that, if I'm wrong about that, 1:40:30 then probably everyone else in BTC is as well. 1:40:33 Because I think that most people are even more deluded about the true causes of the success of BTC than I am. 1:40:45 But I think I'm pretty deluded. 1:40:47 I think it's like nothing matters. 1:40:49 So I'm very nihilistic about it. 1:40:59 Well, I mean, I certainly could have tried harder to act stupid. 1:41:09 But Paul was doing way better than I would have been able to, even if I was trying, I think. 1:41:18 As far as saying things that would make him lose the debate. 1:41:24 He beat me on that. 1:41:26 Well, I think I did a pretty good job. 1:41:29 Do we want to get a sign off from the other guys that are hanging out today? 1:41:34 Do you guys want to give a shout out before we cut it off here? 1:41:38 Oh, yeah, I have a shout out. Thanks for reminding me. 1:41:43 The AGI Metanet chat on Telegram, they wanted me to shout them out. 1:41:52 They talk about artificial intelligence on the Bitcoin BSV blockchain. 1:41:59 Oh, I dig it. 1:42:01 I met the other PartyLine crew guys, but that's fine, too. 1:42:06 Shout out to that AI group. 1:42:08 I know, but isn't that silly, though? I mean, artificial general intelligence on the BSV blockchain. 1:42:13 No, it's not silly. 1:42:15 It's kind of silly, isn't it? 1:42:17 Well, if transactions are cheap, then you want to just do everything on Bitcoin. 1:42:22 All right. So thank you very much for joining us today here on PartyLine Chat. 1:42:26 We will get back with you before too long. 1:42:29 Don't eat the sushi. 1:42:34 Thanks, guys. Thanks, Daniel.