0:00 Welcome to the Shitcoin.com show, everyone. 0:25 Today as always, I'm joined by Andreas Brecken, founder and CEO of Shitcoin.com, and today's 0:31 special guest, you might know him as the guy behind Drivechain, also a prominent Bitcoin 0:37 researcher in the space, Paul Sztorc. 0:40 Welcome, Paul. 0:41 Hey, thanks, guys. 0:42 Thanks for having me. 0:43 I'm so happy to be here. 0:46 Always good to have you back on the show. 0:49 You're a regular feature these days. 0:50 You definitely pop in from time to time to talk to us about current affairs. 0:54 Yeah, well, you guys are great. 0:56 I mean, I got to talk to someone. 0:57 Who am I going to talk to these days? 1:02 So I guess to kick it off, Paul, it'd be great to just get a bit of an update on, yeah, what's 1:06 the latest with Drivechain? 1:07 Where are things at? 1:09 Drivechain's going really well. 1:12 We put out a new version, so we have a version 30 of the test net is out. 1:17 People can check it out. 1:18 Go to drivechain.info. 1:19 We have a downloads page. 1:22 We have a guide with screenshots. 1:24 We've been trying to make it more and more user-friendly and whatnot. 1:29 So I hate to say that it's done, because that's kind of a curse. 1:34 But I do kind of feel like it is very, very close to being finished. 1:39 It's all just been bug fixes for the last few months. 1:46 And what I'd like to do next is have a couple good examples of sidechains. 1:52 So that would be the next thing. 1:54 Andreas, I was talking to you before about Zcash being, that would be kind of an interesting 1:59 one because of how ambitious it is technically, but it's also a code fork of Bitcoin, as is 2:06 our sidechain template. 2:08 So it should be possible to merge, should be doable, pretty doable thing. 2:14 I mean, ideally, it would just be copying and pasting a few things, wallet and transaction 2:19 validation and block that. 2:20 So ideally, but of course, who knows how hard it will be in practice. 2:25 But ideally, it would be very doable, but also something that is kind of very ambitious 2:31 because the cryptography is very alien in Zcash. 2:34 But also the third great thing about it is that it is actually kind of useful because 2:39 people do criticize Bitcoin's privacy dimension. 2:45 And in particular, there are things you can do, but some of them produce the so-called 2:51 toxic waste, which are these outputs that kind of, they know that they belong to you 2:57 and now what are you going to do with them? 2:59 You can't combine it with other things, become trapped. 3:02 So you could send them to this. 3:03 You can drive into the desert and take a lot of photos. 3:07 Well, what I mean is you can send these outputs to Zcash sidechain and kind of like a black 3:16 hole and fresh coins come out and then you can take them from the sidechain back to the 3:23 main chain. 3:24 So it would be, that's kind of a good mix of kind of something that is doable, useful 3:29 and kind of desirable. 3:32 If you had a Zcash sidechain, would you have both transparent addresses and shielded addresses 3:42 or would you just have the shielded? 3:44 I would, because first of all, I think in general, the philosophy should be that all 3:50 people should, the altcoiners ideas should just be copied kind of faithfully. 3:55 I don't think it's a good idea to go down this road of being like, well, you know, sure 4:01 Zcash is great, but let's just edit. 4:03 I don't like the way they did these Zk-SNARKs and then just start editing it so that it's 4:07 like some weird version of, it should just be whatever, every command line, ideally every 4:14 single command line argument or anything you do with the command line that you would do 4:19 on Zcash should just return the exact same thing on the sidechain. 4:24 Oh yeah, because otherwise you can't, yeah, and then you can reuse all software including 4:28 exchangeable implementations. 4:29 Yeah, absolutely, right. 4:31 So that's one reason. 4:33 The second reason is that I think it would be extraordinarily confusing to figure out 4:37 how to send money in, because when you go, if money goes in and out, our sidechain templates 4:42 already set up with Bitcoin addresses, whereas if you keep the transaction, the transparent 4:47 ones are just Bitcoin addresses with a different prefix or something as I understand it. 4:51 They are. 4:52 So that would be pretty, that would be pretty helpful to keep it, then the transfers in 4:57 and out could just be that part, could be the same. 4:59 And then I don't think it's a significant inconvenience. 5:02 I know, you know, I was shocked because I was just starting to do the research for this 5:06 and I was shocked that there's not a single, I don't think there's a single Zcash wallet 5:11 that supports the shielded addresses. 5:15 You have to run one of the two big clients, you have to run the Linux like node or you 5:23 have to run their Windows thing, their Windows like full node, in order to take advantage 5:28 of them at all, which I think is funny, I mean I'm sure there's some important reason 5:31 for that. 5:32 I happen to know, yes, it's too slow to create the mathematical proof required to 5:43 send shielded transactions on a phone. 5:50 But the phones, but I mean Zuko predicted this and I asked him about this over and over 5:55 the years, if phones would be able to do this and yeah, a few years ago he said they will 6:01 because the math is going to get quicker and the phones are going to get quicker and we're 6:06 already at the point where I'm pretty sure a phone can do it now. 6:09 So I remember reading news on a Zcash phone thing coming out that's shielded and I think 6:17 I heard that maybe last week. 6:20 Yeah, I saw this comical list, it was like all these Zcash wallets and there was like 6:25 feature comparison and then if you looked at like shielded addresses it was like no, 6:29 no, no, no, no, no, no, they're all no, every single one of them and I was like what? 6:35 You know, that was kind of funny. 6:40 Another sidechain, I've been looking a bit the last few days on a project called 6:45 Handshake, which is I guess some kind of, it's a reinvention of Namecoin, but the team 6:55 over at Purse.io and their friends at a startup called Namebase have been working on this 7:02 project for a long time. 7:05 So there's one thing we already know, it should not have a token, it should not have 7:10 mining. 7:11 I mean, that goes without saying. 7:13 It happens to have both. 7:15 Well, Namecoin had them as well, which is funny. 7:18 Namecoin of course had merge mining, they had an option for merge mining. 7:21 I love the idea, I've always wanted like a Namecoin sidechain concept because the core 7:27 idea is really good. 7:29 Especially if you think of like Silk Road and the origins of Bitcoin, Onion on the Tor 7:37 network and how that's, one can only hope that that's part of the future of the internet, 7:45 it's just more people using Tor hidden services and like some way of getting it really fast 7:50 and then that would be like a new, that's like an important thing. 7:53 But in particular you just think of like this, problems that we have, like Silk Road or Darknet 7:59 Market, Tor addresses are weird, but also you have stuff like people impersonating Elon 8:05 Musk and Vitalik to like do these Twitter scams where people send these affinity scams. 8:13 The fact that I have to have all these different accounts at Telegram, I have the same, you 8:17 know, I have like a Reddit name, then I have a Twitter name and then I have a name on Telegram 8:23 and it's like, shouldn't it be possible for me to just send the thing and have it all 8:29 totally integrated. 8:31 And if I want and if I don't want them to be integrated, can't I just make a second 8:35 or a third or it should be like Bitcoin addresses where I just, I can make more if I need them. 8:40 And so I should just have a name and the name should just work on everything and I shouldn't, 8:44 you know. 8:45 There's other problems like logging in are terrible, everyone should use a password manager 8:49 that has one really difficult login and then it does the stuff for you, but this could 8:55 work like that. 8:56 Another obvious things about the way it works is the domain name, it doesn't, you know, 9:03 I think ICANN has done a phenomenal job of helping the internet grow into this awesome 9:09 thing, but obviously a lot of what they do doesn't work really well or is confusing. 9:15 Like why can't anything be a TLD at this point? 9:18 I mean, why even have, why even limit, why is anything, why are any of these limits like 9:21 still in place? 9:22 Shouldn't I be able to just do like Drivechain.bitcoin? 9:33 What I envisioned when I kind of tried to do an update of Namecoin on my blog, I was 9:48 envisaging a kind of like, you just have the name and then you just have some JSON and 9:52 you can just put whatever you want in there. 9:53 You can put everything, you can put a public key, you can put a Bitcoin address, you can 9:58 put a Bitcoin stealth address, you can put a website, you can put name servers, you can 10:02 put an IP address. 10:03 They're just describing Keybase now. 10:05 Yeah, but I think it should be, yeah, well that's the thing is I think it would be useful 10:10 in a kind of blockchain situation now because the blockchain is this consensus thing, you 10:16 could put it in a kind of Merkle tree or Radix tree and so everyone could just be like, it 10:22 could be very easy because it could just be like a name. 10:27 It's like a Merkle tree where stuff is sorted on, it's like there's a great image on Wikipedia 10:33 where it's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like words that start with M, so there's like 10:38 an M branch and then there's words that start with M-U like murder and muck or something, 10:47 so it's like it's branched based on the name, so you know the position. 10:51 The alphabetical sorting. 10:52 Exactly, so there's a sorting element, so you can prove that there's no other. 10:56 Oh, but you can guess exactly where it's going to be. 10:59 And also you can say, if you're the only Andreas in the whole thing, then you'll know exactly 11:06 where you'll be in the thing, so you could send it nearby ones to say, this is Andreas 11:11 and then to the left of me is not some other Andreas and to the right of me is not some 11:16 other thing. 11:17 Right. 11:18 So it adds this alphabetical concept, whereas Merkle tree is kind of just random. 11:28 The other thing, though, is that what I have in mind is that it's just a name and a hash 11:34 and then it's up to you. 11:36 You can just say, look, here's my thing, my little business card, and you can see that 11:41 the hash matches, so now that it's not part of consensus, you can make it as big as you 11:46 want. 11:47 You can have anything. 11:48 It could have a photo. 11:49 It can have nested things. 11:50 It could have hash number two, so you could say, here's this, but you don't get my home 11:56 address until layer three and then not until layer four do you get my medical history or 12:03 whatever. 12:04 You could just have all this stuff in there if you wanted and you could change it. 12:08 So I think the core idea is great. 12:11 The big challenge, and I have a blog post about this, that it was like 99% done and 12:16 I just never finished publishing it, but the big problem is that if you want to do something 12:22 like this, and I know Handshake is really emphasizing domain names a lot, which I think 12:30 is fine. 12:31 I almost think that's thinking a little too small, though, but I think obviously that's 12:37 pretty big, nonetheless. 12:39 The big problem is how do you respect these two sets of property rights simultaneously? 12:44 The ICANN, everyone already bought domains, so we already set this one system up, and 12:49 yet you want to have a new system and those people have to have a right to something. 12:55 So it's like how do you balance those two? 12:58 And personally, my opinion is that you should pick a moment in time and let everything that 13:04 ICANN has done, all the traditional domain.com, anything that ends in .com or anything ICANN 13:12 formatted that ends in .org or whatever, then it should always go to their thing. 13:20 They own all of that, and then if it's anything else, then it's a new thing. 13:25 So you could have like Google.anarchy and it would be like a completely different site 13:29 that could be run by anyone. 13:31 But if you do anything that already exists, .com. 13:34 So if someone registers example, 12345.com hypothetically in this new system and it hasn't 13:44 been registered in ICANN, then if someone then later registers it in ICANN, they should 13:49 be able to kind of claim it, because I think the ICANN one should always have a trump. 13:53 This should be like a layer two. 13:54 The new thing should be like a layer two on top of ICANN, where anything that ICANN just 13:59 doesn't resolve or didn't resolve as that wasn't a top-level domain as of March 10th, 14:07 2020, anything that didn't work there now gets kicked over to this thing. 14:12 But how does that work? 14:15 This is a question that's from me. 14:17 I don't understand if in the future ICANN decides to have .pol and .pol owns .pol. 14:25 I think that's why it's very important to pick a date for that and say, ICANN has kind 14:32 of teed this up a little bit by having TLDs. 14:36 So just by having them, you can say look, here's what they said and if they put it 14:41 in the future then forget them, because it can't be handcuffs to their decisions, then 14:46 you're screwed. 14:47 But you say look, because the whole point of this is only to make it certain that the 14:53 existing happy customers of ICANN are not unhappy in your new thing. 14:58 So you've got to keep everyone happy. 15:01 That's the game theorist's quest, to make sure everyone is happy, because unhappy people 15:06 will start a war or become a suicide bomber or something, you can't have that. 15:12 Yeah I already asked you what you thought of the way they were doing them. 15:18 Some of the tokenomics, as they call it these days on it, part of it is... 15:23 Yes, you have to refresh my memory a little bit because I know they, good developer, okay 15:27 you can do it, yes. 15:29 So if you have an account on GitHub that is older than a certain number of, I guess, years, 15:39 and you have at least X followers, I think it's like maybe 100. 15:44 I think it's only 15. 15:47 Okay, 15. 15:48 I mean having a follower on GitHub is like having a thousand on Twitter, because people 15:53 don't follow each other that much on GitHub. 15:56 If you have that, you'll get what is today, I think, like a couple of thousand dollars 16:03 worth of their token. 16:05 And the snapshot was already taken a while ago. 16:07 I thought there was also Hacker News, right? 16:11 Wasn't there something like Dominator or something? 16:13 Yeah, it is Hacker News. 16:15 I was just keeping it simple. 16:16 I had both. 16:17 So the reason they're doing it is because they want software developers with influence 16:31 over integrating something like Handshake in, say, a browser, they want them to be involuntary 16:40 bag holders. 16:42 So because these developers have the GitHub account, so they already have the Handshake, 16:47 they just haven't claimed it, but they can claim it in the future. 16:51 So yeah. 16:52 Well, it has properties similar to the hard fork in that way, where someone who wakes 16:58 up today from a coma that started before, they were fortunate enough to miss the events 17:04 of 2017 until today, and they wake up and now they're like, everyone tells them this 17:12 about BTC, BCH, BSV. 17:15 They have total indifference because they own equal amounts of all of them. 17:20 So this is the happiness kind of criterion that I was mentioning before. 17:25 They're kind of like, oh, okay, you know, I'm happy with whatever works. 17:29 In fact, I'm happy if everything works. 17:33 So they have a certain theory when they emphasize GitHub accounts, not even people, because 17:38 as you know, one person could plausibly have many accounts that get the thing. 17:43 So they have a theory that accounts are important to the success of the project. 17:49 So did they do anything about this ICANN question that I raised, like about grandfathering in 17:56 old names or something like that? 17:58 Or no, this is like a wholesale replacement? 18:00 There is something where I think it's the first top 100,000 on Alexa are reserved and 18:08 can be claimed. 18:09 Okay, that's a good idea. 18:11 So yeah, see, I'm more interested in that because, but I don't know, I could be wrong 18:18 about this, but I suspect like, it's just kind of confusing because it's kind of like, 18:27 it's kind of like what does an account mean? 18:29 So if you work really hard, but you have your one GitHub account, but then the guy 18:34 next to you in the cubicle, who he actually, for some reason, he has eight accounts that 18:39 qualify and then you're kind of like feeling resentful. 18:42 So now this is unhappiness. 18:43 I mean, everyone has to be happy, remember. 18:46 And it's like people, do people want the coin or do they want, what do they want? 18:50 Wouldn't you rather have, so you're ranked 100,001 on Alexa, you just lost your site, 18:58 and now it's like, it's sending a confusing message as well because if you're growing 19:01 your site and your site's growing very well, then you're doing great, but you missed the 19:09 cutoff and someone could register your name. 19:11 Now it gets annoying. 19:13 So those are the things, those are the areas that I really watch for because I don't want 19:20 those people to be unhappy. 19:21 I want everyone, I want it to just be smooth sailing, pure happiness in every direction. 19:28 Why was Trace so into something called Nimble Wimble Coin? 19:39 What is it? 19:40 I have no idea. 19:41 It doesn't make any sense. 19:42 Many people have commented on, in fact, you saw that, I can prove that I had no idea because 19:47 you can see that I will not really prove, but you saw that I quoted him on Twitter because 19:53 I thought he made a good point, but now to my dismay, I discover that who knows what 19:58 really motivated his point about coin joining kind of outs you as a kind of creepy person 20:04 and so you may not want to do it for that reason and I was like, that's right, you may 20:08 not want to do it for that reason, but now it seems as though his motivation for doing 20:13 that was just to make Nimble Wimble Coin look better, but yeah, this is a very confusing 20:17 kind of, it doesn't really make any sense because Trace is supposed to be the super 20:22 rich guy and Nimble, he didn't even shill Grin, right, which is like the kind of project. 20:29 Instead he shilled the coin that like kind of this weird pre-mine and so if he's really 20:36 like handing out these pieces of paper. 20:40 That is old school. 20:41 I give him credit for that. 20:43 Isn't that crazy? 20:44 It's like passing notes in school. 20:45 Passing notes in class, yeah. 20:47 Pass it on. 20:48 I can't remember if it said like pass it on or something on the note. 20:52 It doesn't make any sense. 20:53 It doesn't make any sense that he would do that and also it would have been so unlikely 21:00 to work because that was like Bitcoin maximalist conference. 21:05 So it shows this kind of total lapse of judgment that is very difficult to explain. 21:14 I don't have any explanation. 21:15 I mean maybe he's really much poorer than everyone thinks or maybe he's crazy. 21:20 He's like going senile or maybe he has been like having people kind of suck up to him 21:27 for so long that his self-criticism wires in his brain died out because they weren't 21:34 being used and he needs to regrow them. 21:37 It happens to people, right? 21:39 That's part of this. 21:41 It's a terrible thing about it. 21:43 If anyone who's like rich or famous or important is that you have to always wonder like, are 21:48 these people just sucking up to me? 21:49 Is there an angle? 21:53 So I don't know. 21:54 It doesn't make any sense why he would do that. 21:57 He kind of thought that he could get away with that. 21:59 Like it makes no sense. 22:00 I don't know. 22:01 And to not really get a lot of money because I don't think he could possibly have extracted. 22:06 Yeah, I don't think the shilling went too well. 22:11 And that's why in the discussion that ensued, we started thinking like, who is the actual 22:17 Bitcoin maximalist? 22:22 Even you have held Namecoin, haven't you? 22:25 I have. 22:26 Well, yeah, that's true. 22:27 For research purposes, I bought Zcash and then once I bought, I literally bought Ethereum 22:34 Classic after it split off at the very bottom and then I can't access it because I don't 22:38 understand how. 22:40 I tested it, I thought, but I never like did a complete round trip test. 22:44 So I bought like what it eventually would be because I bought it at like 25 cents or 22:50 whatever, the absolute lowest. 22:54 And when I did, I was like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life. 22:57 This is just a total donation because to mess with Ethereum and it ended up being worth 23:03 like some absurd amount of money. 23:05 But I have no, I tried to get it and I have saved the folder if anyone out there is listening 23:09 and they want to try and offer me 10% of my own money or whatever. 23:15 I have the folder that has the passwords and the key and the directory and I have no idea 23:20 what I did and it doesn't work. 23:21 When I type the stuff in, it just says like, please enter your password or it's just like, 23:26 I don't know. 23:27 I put all types of different things in there to try to figure out what happened. 23:31 So if anyone wants to give that a shot, you can. 23:33 I don't know what Ethereum Classic is worth these days. 23:38 The real question for me is what, you know, I wanted to tweet, I wanted to tweet because 23:45 I asked that other question, that thing that really blew up about if Bitcoin maximalism 23:49 was dead and that turned into a big Twitter event. 23:54 But I was saying like the only person, you know, there's only one person who can help 23:59 me, which is that, which is Vitalik Buterin, he's the one who can define it again. 24:05 He defined it once and I can ask him to define it again and then I will know what maximalism 24:12 is and who it still applies to. 24:15 Because I asked Luke Dasher and he said, no, I'm not a maximalist because sometimes I 24:23 take years and years of payment. 24:26 I know, that doesn't make any sense. 24:29 The original meaning I thought was pretty clear. 24:32 It was that, well you have to see this, what one thing I think is happening is that new 24:38 people are showing up and they don't know like the story. 24:42 The story is that Satoshi did all this work to do something that everyone thought was 24:47 like impossible, and he created Bitcoin from scratch. 24:51 And then kind of created Namecoin, which also was like, I do think that the technology idea 24:57 of Namecoin, or of a Namecoin. 25:00 It's a great idea and its day will come, probably soon. 25:03 And then you had Charlie Lee who copy-pasted the code, which took no effort whatsoever and he changed like two parameters. 25:15 And then you had Litecoin. So that is, he had every right to do that. 25:23 I don't know why the community put up with it at all, because I kind of regarded it as sort of insulting to Satoshi, 25:29 that you could automatically have like two categories of things, Bitcoin and Litecoin, 25:36 because one person did all this marginal effort to create it, it was immense. 25:41 And the marginal effort to create Litecoin was very de minimis, basically nothing. 25:48 So, what followed was mostly more like that, where people putting in basically no effort, 25:57 but being treated kind of in the same category as Bitcoin. 26:01 So this is kind of unfair, jumping in this category. 26:04 Then eventually you had stuff that had some use for something. 26:10 It was very confusing and weird, but you had stuff like Primecoin, where it would do something. 26:18 You know, and you're like, is this worth it? But probably not. 26:23 And then you had kind of a version 2.0 of that, where you had stuff that was more complicated at least. 26:29 So you had Counterparty, BitShares, Ethereum. That was like 2014, 2015, whatever. 26:36 So, the story is a lot of just stuff that was just total junk. 26:42 And then the new stuff, BitShares and Ethereum mainly, the new stuff was very, very poorly thought out. 26:50 And those people were not – they were really just changing all these things frivolously. 26:57 You know, I regarded it mostly as a matter of luck that Ethereum triumphed, 27:02 so that people just wanted kind of some alternative to Bitcoin. 27:05 Because they were a little worried about, I think, governance, scaling the block size debate. 27:10 But basically governance. They were like, who's making the decisions around here, 27:14 and what happens if there's a bad decision? We need a competitor. 27:17 And they were like, oh, this Vitalik thing, because Satoshi is anonymous, but Vitalik is right here. 27:23 And he's like – Satoshi sort of seemed old, because he would talk about Usenet sometimes. 27:28 So what is this guy, like 500 years old? 27:31 Hey, I talk about Usenet. 27:33 And so it was kind of this contrast. I regarded it as basically a matter of luck that it could have been anything. 27:42 So what I'm trying to say is mostly maximalism was just this point of view, this observation, 27:49 that everything else was just terrible, and that these people, they all had an agenda. 27:54 They were all just trying to make money. 27:57 That's why I need Vitalik to announce the definition on Twitter. 28:01 He's the only one who can help resolve this issue. I never thought I would say that. 28:06 But it's like the end of whatever, Back to the Future. 28:10 He says there's only one man who can help me. 28:13 Let the camera come to Vitalik now. 28:16 And he's the definer. He has the whatever. He has the Genesis definition. 28:23 So he must now define it as – because all I want to know is if BitRefill accepts Ethereum, 28:35 if it legitimizes it as a payment method, legitimizing it as money. 28:40 They probably will now that the Maxi has left BitRefill. 28:48 No, but they already do. That's the thing. 28:50 They even gave a thing about Lightning, and they said – because in the thing, 28:53 this is how this came on my radar even. 28:55 The guy, Sergey or someone was saying, 28:59 Lightning accounts is now up to about 5% of our revenue, 29:04 which is about as much as we do in Ethereum revenue. 29:07 And I was like, oh, what? 29:09 The place where John Carvalho works has been accepting Ethereum this whole time, 29:14 gaining revenue from it, and legitimizing it as money by accepting it as a payment. 29:19 So now people are trying to spin this around, and they say we're doing them. 29:23 It's actually a bad thing because we take it, and we sell it. 29:28 You know, I know. Isn't that crazy? 29:30 And they're saying, sure, we legitimize it as money, and we accept it. 29:35 But when we sell it, so we're like taking it out of the ecosystem or something. 29:41 We dump it or something. 29:43 It's like, what is going on? 29:45 That is not how anything works. 29:47 That is not consistent with the original maximalist idea where you would just be like, 29:51 of course I won't touch any of that because you wouldn't even think about it 29:56 because it's completely illegitimate. 29:59 It would be a thing that would get you laughed at. 30:01 You'd be disqualified. 30:02 You'd be laughed out of a conversation if you brought up – 30:05 Like what if we traveled back in time to like 2015, 30:09 and someone at Blockstream said, oh, we should do a data feed for our BitShares. 30:16 I mean like people would just be laughing. 30:18 That person would probably be fired. 30:23 Fair market there. 30:26 So, you know, but I'm not saying that anything that anyone is doing is wrong. 30:31 I would just like to know what the definition is anymore. 30:34 What is the definition? 30:35 I don't know. 30:36 That's why we need Vitalik. 30:38 Vitalik is the only one who can help. 30:40 He has to give us the measurement. 30:43 I publicly call upon him to define Bitcoin maximalism to a greater degree of specificity 30:52 than in the past. 30:54 What exactly does it mean? 30:56 The world needs to know. 30:58 I need to know. 31:00 We need to know. 31:01 We'll create a public campaign around this. 31:03 Don't worry. 31:04 Any definition is fine as long as it's consistent. 31:06 I'll take any definition. 31:08 And also before we go, guys, Ethereum Classic is actually $6.84. 31:14 So what did you buy that at? 31:19 25 cents? 31:20 25 cents. 31:21 I don't know if I should tell you how much I bought. 31:23 It was easy to get a lot of it at 25 cents. 31:25 If anyone would like to try out Vitalik also, we have your attention.