0:00 Hello. 0:01 How are you doing? 0:02 I'm doing great. 0:03 This show we've threatened to make for a while. 0:05 Oh, yeah. 0:06 I know. 0:07 It's like a Cold War. 0:08 It's coming to an end. 0:09 A little bit of pressure, a little bit of conversation online, and then finally we did 0:10 it. 0:11 So we're going to do this. 0:12 We're going to cover this, the controversial Paul, and Paul's controversial ideas. 0:13 Well, you know, I tried not to say anything controversial, but I think I said it wrong. 0:14 I don't think there's anything controversial. 0:15 You know, I think I said it. 0:16 I think there is. 0:17 You know, I didn't say anything controversial. 0:18 I don't think there's anything controversial. 0:19 I think that's just the way I am. 0:20 not to say — anyone can just repeat the ideas that are out there, you know what I 0:32 mean? 0:33 If I'm going to write a blog post or something, I want it to be something new. 0:37 I usually — I try to write about something where I disagree with everyone else, so that's 0:42 inevitable. 0:43 And then of course, people never read the post. 0:44 They just see like a tweet with the title, and they just say that's wrong because of 0:48 such and such. 0:49 But if they would read the article, they would see I already replied to such and such. 0:52 I say a lot of people think such and such, but that's not right. 0:55 So Paul, why are you so controversial? 0:58 I don't know. 0:59 I mean, I think I just said that, like I try to only say things when I think that are useful. 1:04 And I think a useful thing is if you notice something false that everyone believes is 1:09 true or vice versa, you would want to say that. 1:13 You wouldn't just want to repeat what other people would say. 1:16 That's not always necessarily true in Bitcoin, though. 1:19 Sometimes it's quite difficult to step out from what a lot of people say. 1:22 Well, it's very difficult for sure, but I think there's a difference between — I 1:28 mean, the right thing to do is usually — it's not always the easy thing to do. 1:32 If it's easy to do and right to do, then there's no problem, right? 1:35 All right, Paul. 1:36 Well, listen, I know who you are, but there's going to be some people listening who don't 1:39 know who you are. 1:40 Do you want to give a bit of a background? 1:41 Well, I mean, I hate introductions. 1:43 I think it's like I'll just say my thing, and then at the end of the interview, people 1:47 can decide if they want to — you can go, you can find me on Twitter at Truthcoin. 1:52 You're so controversial. 1:54 Truthcoin.info is my blog, and you can find all kinds of — I have a project, BitcoinHiveMind.com. 1:59 I have all these projects that I'll link to each other. 2:02 So if everyone does an intro, you're not doing an intro. 2:05 I just think intros are really boring, you know? 2:08 It's like I always think like I already decided to click play, right? 2:14 So I always skip like way into any YouTube video or any podcast. 2:18 I skip way into it because I'm like, I don't want to hear the intro. 2:21 I just want to hear what I'm here to hear for. 2:24 But now I'm doing the worst thing, which is just wasting everyone's time not even giving 2:28 them an intro. 2:29 Well, now I'm going to put intros in the middle just to fuck with you. 2:32 Okay, great. 2:33 Yeah, you can edit it and rearrange. 2:35 Everyone at home, Peter McCormack can just edit and rearrange the interview. 2:39 I have no idea what order it's going to be in or anything. 2:42 Well, we're here to entertain as well as educate. 2:44 All right, Paul. 2:46 Tell me about Drivechains. 2:48 I know I can't remember if you or someone else tried to explain them to me before, but 2:52 we know I'm not the most technically competent. 2:55 Yes, I've heard that. 2:56 I've heard you say that before. 2:57 You explain it like I'm too. 3:00 Often. 3:01 Well, yeah, people say that and I say, where are your parents or something? 3:05 I mean, Drivechain is this idea for an SPV proof that I came up with in November 2015. 3:12 SPV proof. 3:14 SPV proof is something that proves the work, the proof of work, but not the validity of blocks. 3:22 See, I have no idea what you're talking about already. 3:25 SPV proof is the foundation of the sidechain idea. 3:29 So the sidechain is we aren't going to look at the validity. 3:34 So we have like a Zcash sidechain or whatever. 3:37 We have like a bit Zcash. 3:39 So we're going to copy all the technology from Zcash. 3:43 But Bitcoin is not going to go through the effort of doing whatever wacky technology they're doing over there. 3:51 We're just going to say, we're only going to look at, did you mine a bunch of blocks in the Zcash sidechain, so to speak. 3:59 So we're going to have to go step by step on this. 4:01 My limited understanding of sidechains is with what I know about liquid. 4:07 Yeah, right. 4:08 This is unfortunate because they have decided to take this word in a different direction. 4:14 So to me, a sidechain, we have the Bitcoin blockchain and then we have this other blockchain. 4:20 And I can peg my Bitcoin in and I'm given liquid Bitcoin and I can peg out. 4:26 And then in this separate sidechain, I can do a bunch of other shit. 4:29 And the way I understand it, it's almost like another little block I can go and play in and do stuff. 4:35 It's almost like I've got two rooms. One room is Bitcoin and one room is liquid. 4:39 And I've decided to pay some Bitcoin to go in the liquid room. 4:42 I play with liquid and I can get my Bitcoin back and come out. 4:45 So the trick is how does the coins come out? 4:48 So you see it's easy to go in. 4:51 Here in New York City, they have the subway, the one-way spinning thing. 4:56 I don't know if you've been on the subway. 4:58 We have the Circle Line in London. 5:00 And so it's easy to get. 5:02 It's kind of like layer one Bitcoin is you're trapped in the subway forever. 5:06 And it's easy to get out to go in to layer two. 5:11 You go up to the street layer. 5:14 We walk out the little turnstile thing. 5:16 But you can't easily get back in. 5:19 You have to pay and use the little kiosk. 5:22 Right. You've got to give me some real example. 5:25 What does that mean when liquid is hard to get out? 5:27 I can't just peg out? 5:28 Well, in liquid, when you peg out, there's a multisig output and a bunch of people sign. 5:34 Those people sign. 5:35 So on layer one, the only thing that the Bitcoin network sees is a multisig output. 5:40 So you could make your own competitor to liquid ten minutes from now by just making 15 keys 5:47 and creating a multisig address and then telling everyone that this is whatever. 5:53 Yeah, but I'm not going to do that. 5:54 And that doesn't make any sense to me. 5:55 What I'm saying is I know liquid exists. 5:57 I know I can peg into it. 5:59 I know I can get liquid Bitcoin. 6:00 I'm going to move that around with a little more privacy, a little bit faster. 6:05 I know how that works. 6:07 And I know I can peg out. 6:09 I'm still not understanding what your criticism is. 6:12 Well, when you peg in and peg out, it's what you're sending it to. 6:18 On layer one, that's what's actually happening. 6:21 So with liquid, this is just like a multisig wallet. 6:26 I guess I'm not really sure that you actually do know what liquid is and what's happening 6:31 when you peg in and peg out. 6:33 I won't know technically, but I'm a standard user of what most of my listeners will be. 6:41 Most people listen to this. 6:42 They don't know how multisig really works. 6:45 They don't understand the engine behind Bitcoin. 6:48 Most of them buy Bitcoin and they send it to an address and they keep it there. 6:53 And then sometimes they send it to another address. 6:55 And some of them maybe go and create a Lightning wallet. 6:59 And they send some Bitcoin to have some stats. 7:01 And some of them may even create a multisig wallet with something like Casa. 7:05 And some of them really advanced will run a node. 7:10 But most people don't understand what's going on. 7:12 They're just sending stuff to addresses. 7:15 So why does this matter to them? 7:18 Well, one reason is if the 15 keys are compromised, 11 of them in this case, 7:25 that person will just take all the money out. 7:27 So it'll be like a Celsius-style catastrophe. 7:31 So your criticism is really the risk around the Federation? 7:37 Well, this is the main difference between what I did, which is now BIP300. 7:41 And the Federation is a group of people who are the custodians of the money. 7:46 And you hope that they choose to give you your money back. 7:50 And maybe you have really good reasons to believe that they will give you your money back. 7:54 But in BIP300, there's just a transparent process that only involves the miners. 7:59 Anyone can become a miner or leave the group of miners at any time. 8:03 As you know, there's no fixed list of miners. 8:07 If all of today's miners were killed by an asteroid or something, 8:12 then there would be new miners without anyone having to update anything. 8:16 But that's not true. 8:17 If the Liquid functionaries all die or they all get whatever, something happens to them, 8:22 then it won't be possible to get the money back. 8:25 Although in Liquid's case, there is a secondary multisig failsafe. 8:31 That's a whole other story because at one point they realized that they had done it wrong 8:34 and there were four Blockstream keys that could be used. 8:37 Not in an emergency, so this is like a complicated other detail. 8:41 Okay. 8:42 With Liquid that people probably won't be interested in. 8:44 In terms of my experience of moving, say, into your Drivechain, does it have a name like Liquid? 8:50 No. 8:51 Well, this is a process for creating. 8:54 BIP300 means there could be 256 slots. 8:59 And each could be its own sidechain. 9:01 And then you could do it again and get 256 more. 9:03 You could have sidechains of sidechains. 9:05 So this is a process for adding and removing decentralized sidechains 9:10 that have no fixed list of owners. 9:13 Okay, I get it. 9:14 So this is, okay, you're proposing a way for sidechains to be created, 9:18 not the creation of the sidechain itself. 9:20 Yeah, when you create Liquid, you need to pick the 15 people or the 15 keys. 9:25 But with this, you would not. 9:28 But with this, if you created a sidechain using BIP300, 9:32 does somebody still peg in and have a different asset and still peg out? 9:37 Yeah, the user sends the coins in to a little box, basically. 9:42 And the sidechain software recognizes that as a deposit. 9:45 Okay. 9:46 Over there, the sidechain software is like an altcoin, except without the coin. 9:51 You can do whatever you want over there. 9:53 So you could do Zcash, Ethereum, whatever. 9:55 We'll come back to that. 9:57 So when I go in, am I given something that is identical in replication? 10:02 Like a Liquid Bitcoin is basically a Bitcoin? 10:05 Yes, that's the idea. 10:06 I mean, of course, with this, you have the freedom to do any idea you like, 10:11 good or bad. 10:12 So someone could have a sidechain that was a terrible design 10:16 and where it ate the coins and refused to tell you where they were 10:20 or give them back. 10:21 Okay. 10:22 So of course, no one would do that in practice, except there's a mistake. 10:26 So whereas with Bitcoin and Liquid, we have these two rooms I can go between. 10:32 You're just creating a process. 10:33 Anyone can come and build a room that attaches to it. 10:35 It's like an elevator. 10:36 I can conjure a new floor or something. 10:38 And one could be a very nice safe room and one could murder you. 10:42 Yeah. 10:43 You open the door and you just fall out of the building. 10:46 Okay. 10:47 Fine. 10:48 I'm going to come back to that. 10:50 Your sidechain doesn't have a 15-person multisig. 10:55 Correct. 10:56 So what does it have instead? 10:57 You've got to imagine I am the dumbest fucker you will meet. 11:01 So just take me slowly, step by step. 11:04 Well, okay. 11:05 The metaphor is that you put the coins into a little box. 11:08 Yeah. 11:09 So there are 256 slots, so it should be its own box. 11:13 But we're just talking one sidechain at a time. 11:15 Why 256? 11:16 Well, because a byte can count up to that. 11:19 You need some way of referring to each sidechain so it would be more overhead. 11:23 In practice, there's no limit because you could have sidechains of sidechains, 11:27 or you could do the thing again. 11:29 I just don't think that they'll be anywhere near. 11:31 I could be totally wrong about this, but I just don't see. 11:35 How many viable blockchain designs do you see? 11:38 You've got Bitcoin, Monero, and you've got 10 other things. 11:42 But if BIP300 was merged into Bitcoin, what stops one person quickly going to take all 256 slots? 11:49 Well, the process of claiming the slot takes a little bit of time. 11:54 So there's like a BIP-9 style two-week activation thing to take the slot. 11:59 And you can also very slowly overwrite the slot. 12:03 So BIP300 has all these rules to manage that kind of thing. 12:07 But say I go and claim all 256 slots straight away and wait my two weeks. 12:14 Do I suddenly have all the slots and there's none left for anyone else? 12:16 Well, the miners have to – like I said, there's like a miner act thing, like acknowledgement things. 12:21 You need like 90% miners to thumbs up your thing. 12:26 So the process involves more – is more miner involved. 12:31 Okay, okay. 12:32 Each block I get to like do – affect the outcome in a very small way. 12:38 That's basically the design. 12:39 So are you essentially pitching your sidechain to the miners? 12:42 You're saying this is my sidechain? 12:44 Yes. 12:45 And is it a bit like when a soft fork happens and you get miner signaling? 12:50 Because this idea is from long ago in 2015, before any of this was even controversial. 12:55 This used to just be the way everything was done. 12:58 That's obviously speaking a little too broadly. 13:00 But this never used to be like a big who controls Bitcoin controversy. 13:05 That's all just fallout from the block size war, SegWit2x. 13:10 So this used to be a very uncontroversial and kind of normal thing. 13:14 Well, we'll come back to that. 13:15 Yeah. 13:16 But I'm interested in this. 13:17 So you release – the code is released. 13:19 BIP300 is activated. 13:22 The pitch to the miners, to be clear, is like this will either improve the price of Bitcoin and or improve the total transaction fees collected. 13:33 So there's a rational reason to expect that miners would be – they would at least have some interest in making sure that they give the right decision. 13:43 How does it get pitched to them though? 13:44 Is it like a BIP? 13:46 I think there's no – well, these are like – these details are – 13:50 I have plans for this. 13:52 I actually invented something else called CoinNews, which is a completely different cosmetic thing for displaying op return data in Bitcoin, which is – it's a very interesting idea. 14:01 And it doesn't involve any hard or soft fork or any kind of code changes to the consensus of Bitcoin at all. 14:08 And it's just a cosmetic thing where when you open the full node, it shows you like who paid the op returns. 14:15 It sorts them by like fee rate, and you can also have them like sorted by other kind of tags and stuff that you can put in. 14:22 So you can have like all the English language ones in one column and all the Japanese ones in like a different column or something. 14:28 So I had this other thing that I just did for fun and it's a software that I run, and I would think they could do that. 14:36 But even if you didn't have something like that in the software, someone could just make a very conspicuous transaction that stands out by paying a larger fee and basically do that kind of idea with duct tape. 14:50 Yeah, but like when a BIP is activated, when a soft fork is activated, it's a whole thing. 14:56 Like everybody knows what it's about. 14:58 Yes. 14:59 You get to read the documentation. 15:00 But don't you think this is part of the problem though? 15:01 Well, I'll come back to that because the thing you just – 15:04 We're coming back to a lot of things. 15:05 Well – 15:06 Luckily you've got a pen there. 15:07 Yeah. 15:08 So the last thing you explained, I think you explained that you think I have any idea what you're talking about, and I don't. 15:13 This coin news thing? 15:14 No, no. 15:15 You know what op return is though. 15:16 I have no idea what op return is. 15:17 Well, people put messages. 15:18 It's the messages the miners put in the block when they – 15:21 No, that's a Coinbase. 15:22 But op return, anyone can make a transaction. 15:26 This is used by lots of different people, and you can put – what it is is it's a part of the transaction that you can just prune out. 15:35 You can just cut. 15:36 So it's something that will never be spent, so they put what's called a zero value output. 15:40 Okay. 15:41 So basically what it is is like a memo field and a check or something. 15:44 But what I'm trying to get to is – 15:46 People write stuff like Bible verses and wedding vows, and people put like funny little things. 15:53 I've seen things like when certain blocks are mined, they put messages in. 15:56 Yes. 15:57 That's what I mean. 15:58 Okay. 15:59 But what I'm saying is I just want to go back. 16:01 If a soft fork is activated, prior to that, the miners know full well what is contained within the software, what it brings to Bitcoin, right? 16:10 Well, that's the idea. 16:12 Do you think that's really true though? 16:14 Because you just told me, like, I don't know anything about op return, blah, blah, blah, and a big Bitcoin podcast. 16:18 Well, yeah, but I'm not a technical Bitcoin podcast. 16:22 We have Stefan Levera for that. 16:23 My show is to help people like me, like morons who don't know shit about this technical stuff. 16:28 Well, I mean, one thing I would recommend people do – I think this is fascinating. 16:32 You go to Scaling Bitcoin 2 Hong Kong. 16:35 It's 2015. 16:36 They had this miner panel, and they had something like – someone even said out loud, like, 16:41 we have 92% of the hash rate represented on stage or something, which is kind of like itself, like kind of a weird thing to say. 16:49 But it goes through, and it's clear that those people have no real idea what the block size debate is actually about. 16:55 And in fact, most of them said something like – at one point, someone on the panel said something like, could someone please just tell us what to do or something? 17:02 Because they were much more like you, I think, where they're just trying to find cheap power, and they don't know. 17:08 But they still have to make a decision. 17:11 Of course. The more important thing is that they have accountability in the increased Bitcoin price and the greater transaction fees. 17:18 They have the skin in the game to know. 17:20 So they have some basis for making – having an incentive to make the right decision. 17:27 But I'm sure they talk to people, and people will help them understand, yeah, this is a good thing. 17:32 But when we get to a – what you're talking about, again, what are they activating, and do they even know what they're activating? 17:41 Well, I think, again, this is like the paradigm shift, which is that people feel very responsible for all the Bitcoin code. 17:49 This is why the sidechain idea is like a complete night and day change from this way of thinking. 17:55 But right now, as you know, everyone worries about every single line of code, every single change. 18:00 But with this, these are all optional zones. 18:03 The sidechains are all optional zones that your full node is going to ignore. 18:07 It will only check the – so let me finish my box thing. 18:11 The box has kind of like a Post-it note on it that has the number zero. 18:15 And you can only take money out of the box if someone has a Post-it note that has 13,150 on it. 18:23 And you can only – every day, there's little rules about this Post-it note moving up and down. 18:28 But basically, that's the whole idea in a little nutshell. 18:31 But even though that's the proving the work, the SPV proof, but it's not going to know anything about what the sidechain is doing. 18:38 So that is intentional because you don't – that's what makes you able to ignore the sidechain. 18:44 So that's the whole point is that you wouldn't need to worry about what it is. 18:49 Okay. Where does the sidechain exist? 18:54 In some ways, it's easy to think about a sidechain as an altcoin. 18:58 So it's like where does Ethereum exist or something. 19:01 You run a different piece of software. It has its own blocks. 19:04 It has its own blockchain. It has its own folder on your computer. 19:07 Okay. 19:08 Right? 19:09 Yeah. 19:10 This is the same thing basically except that – a couple of differences. 19:13 But one is that the way this is designed, this is a fully asymmetric sidechain. 19:18 There used to be a distinction. 19:19 Now there is not. 19:20 All these sidechain words have become unhelpful unfortunately. 19:24 But in this particular case, that – like we have test software. 19:29 So we have test sidechains. 19:31 That software won't even run or do anything until it can connect to a layer one Bitcoin node. 19:36 So it's a lot like a lightning node in that way. 19:38 It's like a full layer two. 19:39 So it's like a fully subordinate piece of software. 19:43 Okay. Let's say one of these sidechains is set up and created. 19:46 Yes. 19:47 My node doesn't download any of the blocks. 19:50 Your Bitcoin layer one full node does not. 19:54 But – 19:55 Right. 19:56 It will not see anything except the box and the posted node. 19:58 And these boxes are UTXOs. They already exist. 20:00 Okay. 20:01 Already have box world. 20:02 But if I want to use that sidechain, how do I start using it? 20:06 Well, it's the same as – again, it's the same as like the case with an altcoin. 20:11 It's the easiest way for people to think about it if they don't know, if they're very confused or something. 20:16 You could have a wallet and use it without a node or only with an SPV node. 20:21 Or if you wanted the full node, the sidechain full node, you would download that software and you would just run it. 20:27 So it would have a separate node? 20:28 Yes. 20:29 Okay. So why is it a sidechain to Bitcoin? 20:33 Is it so it gains the security of Bitcoin? 20:36 Well, of course, the goal of sidechains back in the day before – 20:40 this is unfortunate because my point of view is not really relatable to regular people anymore 20:45 because most people only know – I was back in October 2014 when Bloxham originally published this paper and debuted. 20:53 It was very clear to everyone that the sidechain idea was to simulate altcoins. 20:58 So it was to make them obsolete basically. 21:00 At the time, Ethereum was getting started. 21:03 There was other stuff, BitShares or whatever. 21:06 It was all terrible at the time, but people thought, what are we going to do? 21:12 Why should there be a basis for comparison at all? 21:15 Say with Bitcoin, you can do X. 21:17 But with – hey, people would say, with my wacky new project, you can do Y, this new thing, or Z or whatever you want to call it. 21:27 You don't have to wait for Bitcoin to – 21:29 To merge the thing in. 21:30 Yeah. 21:31 Of course, then with the block size debate, it became apparent that it may be an even deeper problem than that 21:39 because you may have irreconcilable differences between people. 21:42 You cannot have the blocks be both small and large at the same time. 21:45 So someone has to leave empty-handed. 21:48 And so then that was like really spurring it on at first, and then Bloxham went in the liquid direction, 21:55 and they kind of torched I think the whole concept, which I think is a big, huge setback for Bitcoin. 22:01 They wrote a paper in October 2014 called Sidechains colon something, and anyone can look it up. 22:11 And it was written by people who not – Blockstream Plus basically. 22:16 Some other people were on the list. 22:18 And then November 2015, I had my SPV proof, which was different than theirs. 22:23 They have this Appendix B skip list thing that they never actually did. 22:27 They only stuck with the multisig, which they insisted – For years, they insisted was only like a temporary band-aid, 22:35 and they would switch to their thing. 22:38 They abandoned their Appendix B thing. 22:41 My version is supposed to literally be like minimalist, and I changed something else. 22:45 I proved the work via the mainchain, not via the sidechain because I worked out that it made really no difference. 22:54 And so as much as actually there's no cost and enormous benefits to doing it that way. 22:59 But they had coined the word. 23:02 It's kind of unfortunate that they did because they coined the sidechain word, and then they ran away with the definition. 23:07 And so if I could do it over, one of the things I would do is I probably just – 23:13 I would never have used the word sidechain to describe what I was doing at all. 23:18 And maybe I should still stop doing it, and I should just use the Drivechain word. 23:22 And I should say this is a totally different thing. 23:24 But sidechain – you can kind of understand what it is from the nature of the word. 23:31 Well, I would hope, but a lot of people think that – well, yeah, I don't know. 23:36 A lot of people don't know. 23:37 What I was thinking of – I had an image in the November 2015 post at the beginning with Bitcoin as like an engine, 23:43 and then like a big chain going around in all these other gears, like a Leonardo da Vinci kind of thing. 23:50 The gears would be like Litecoin, would be like Ethereum. 23:53 So give me an example of a sidechain that someone would build. 23:57 That might be more helpful to understand. 23:59 Yeah, the Zcash sidechain that we already have is a very good example. 24:01 We copied – they did all this work to get the Zcash 5.0. 24:05 The privacy benefits are very clear. 24:08 It's this unbreakable, confusing Z address thing. 24:14 And so now we have a version of that that we copied. 24:17 We just copied their version 5.0 into our template. 24:21 Okay. 24:22 So then you send – if you download our test software, you can mine fake coins because it's a test and it's not real. 24:29 You can mine fake coins on what would be regular Bitcoin. 24:34 You send them over to the Zcash sidechain. 24:36 They show up over there, and then over there you can use them with the Z addresses. 24:39 Right. 24:40 And that's the benefit, and then you can take them back. 24:42 Let's go one step at a time. 24:44 You guys have created this, but it's not currently. 24:47 It's not live with Bitcoin like BTC. We have a fake – we have software for testing that anyone can use that just generate coins. 24:52 It's funny. There's nothing in principle different between what we did and what some altcoin that could exist or something, but it's for testing purposes only. 24:59 Some of this stuff's hard for people to follow, so we have to go through slowly. 25:05 I know it might be difficult. It might be painful for you, but – so you've created a – but if you created a fake coin, 25:13 but if you created that in a Bitcoin testnet as a sidechain to Bitcoin, an entire testnet? 25:19 The whole thing we did is our own test playground, so we can just reset it whenever we want. 25:25 But that doesn't answer my question. My question is BIP300 doesn't exist within Bitcoin. 25:30 Right. 25:31 Okay? You want it to exist. 25:33 Well, I don't understand at all why people aren't foaming or chomping at the bit or whatever. 25:39 I know, but that's, again, another separate question. 25:41 Sure. 25:42 My question to you is – and I'm going slowly. I'm going to be specific about this just so people understand. 25:47 If we jump around, no one will get it. 25:50 So how you understand Bitcoin, I understand how to structure questions in a way so people understand it. 25:56 Okay. 25:57 So currently BIP300 doesn't exist within Bitcoin. You wish it did. 26:00 Yes. 26:01 Yes. 26:02 You've created a testnet environment where you have activated BIP300 in a testnet, and so you've created that Zcash sidechain. 26:10 Yes. Those are separate things, though. 26:12 Okay. 26:13 BIP300 activates on the mainnet on what would be Bitcoin Core if it were on real Bitcoin. 26:21 But you've activated the code in a testnet environment to see it works. 26:24 Right. That's BIP300. 26:25 Yeah. 26:26 The sidechain is a completely separate piece of software, like a lightning node. 26:29 But the BIP300 in the testnet allows you to move between the two. 26:35 Yes. 26:36 Yeah. Okay, great. So I understand that. 26:38 And so have you done this almost to prove to people, look how cool this is. We've now got Zcash on Bitcoin. 26:43 Well, I agree with you completely that the example is a much better way of explaining it. 26:48 I think most people are not interested in even how it works. 26:54 They just want to know, what is this for? 26:56 It's like my friend used an analogy in Xbox. 26:58 You build the Xbox with no games. 27:01 And so that was like, you have to have a game. 27:04 So if I wanted to use this, I've got Bitcoin Core running. 27:07 Say I want to use this sidechain, what else do I have to download? 27:11 Well, yeah, we have a different – the Zcash software has its own node. 27:15 So I'll be running two nodes at that point. 27:18 Well, as you know, you don't necessarily need to run any. 27:21 Many people just use a wallet that may be an SPV node only. 27:27 Or some people just use Coinbase or something. 27:30 So it's debatable whether or not those people are real users. 27:33 Is that like too nuanced? You know what I mean? 27:36 Because you can use Bitcoin without running a full node. 27:39 Yeah, of course. 27:40 So that's what I'm saying is how you use it is kind of your business. 27:44 But this other node software must exist for the network to produce blocks. 27:49 There must be other people doing nodes. 27:50 Okay, yeah, like we have with Bitcoin. 27:52 Some people run nodes, some people don't. 27:54 But say I wanted – Danny wanted some Zcash from me, from your sidechain. 28:04 Okay, one more other question. 28:05 Is this a separate Zcash from the other Zcash blockchain? 28:07 Yes, that's an important other thing too. 28:09 So it should probably be given a different name. 28:11 Yeah, I used to – we call it Zside as a joke. 28:14 Sometimes they have like funny names. 28:16 Z, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Z. 28:17 When I did the presentation at Bitcoin 2021, I did an example with – 28:22 I usually just put Bit in front of them because Gavin and Driessen did this a million years ago. 28:27 And so I was like Bit Monero. 28:29 So you'd have like Bitcoin and then we'd have like Bit Monero. 28:31 It would be like the Monero sidechain. 28:34 Yeah, I agree. 28:35 I think the names are a big problem. 28:38 Someone needs to come through with my project and rename everything. 28:41 You're in my world now, branding and marketing. 28:43 I can help you with this bit. 28:44 I would have a completely separate name because otherwise I'll be like, am I Zcash here? 28:48 The same my Zcash here? 28:49 Okay, they're not. 28:50 Yeah, so we call it Zside. 28:51 And in fact, we label the tickers different too to keep people from being confused. 28:56 So like Bitcoin does – Liquid does LBTC. 28:59 We just call them BTC on the mainnet. 29:01 And then we just call them like SC1, SC2, SC3. 29:05 So sidechain number three is SC3. 29:07 You need a brand and a marketing person. 29:09 I would have called it something completely different. 29:12 But anyway, okay. 29:13 So I can run the node, but I don't have to. 29:17 Right, but I mean, as you know – I don't know. 29:20 It depends on the direction you want to take this conversation, but yeah. 29:24 So if I'm running the node and I've got my Bitcoin node running, the BIP300 is how they talk to each other? 29:32 Yes. 29:33 Okay. 29:34 So say I want some bit Zs, bit Zcash. 29:39 Sure. 29:40 How do I get those? 29:42 Well, are you getting them from someone else on the network or are you getting them from layer one? 29:48 Are you pegging in with your Bitcoin to get? 29:50 Well, when it turns on for the first time, it starts with zero coins. 29:54 So there's no coins there. 29:55 So someone has to send the coins, and we have a little GUI for that. 30:00 And so you have a rule, and your rule could be what, one to one? 30:03 I didn't even plan on doing it like this, but I actually have screenshots. 30:05 But your rule could be one to one or ten to one? 30:08 Well, it should be one to one. 30:10 It could be something else, but it would just be confusing, you know what I mean? 30:13 Because if it's ten to one going in, and then it would have to be one to ten coming back. 30:18 And that would just be annoying for people, I would think. 30:20 The whole point is to make it easier. 30:21 The whole point of this over the altcoin is to remove the Forex risk, and also the risk of the project just collapsing. 30:29 So there would be a maximum 21 million. 30:32 Yeah, there's 21 million shared by all the different pieces of software. 30:35 Okay, great. 30:36 So I get it. 30:37 So I can peg in, and I can get some of these bit Zs. 30:40 I'm going to call them bit Zs. 30:42 And then I can send that to Danny. 30:43 But if Danny already has some, he can send them to me. 30:45 Yeah, right. 30:46 Okay, and I need a wallet. 30:49 And in my wallet, I would have Bitcoin. 30:51 I could have Bitcoin and also have these bit Zs next to it, yeah? 30:53 Correct. 30:54 Okay, so that's kind of— 30:55 So when you download the Zcash node software, obviously it comes with a wallet. 31:00 Yeah. 31:01 But you could also have something like, I don't know, whatever wallet you want to name. 31:04 Most of the wallets these days are multi-cryptocurrency. 31:09 They have Bitcoin and alt, and they could just have this also. 31:12 But say I was using—I don't know, let's give an example of a wallet. 31:15 Say I was using Ledger. 31:17 Would Ledger have to write in support for this? 31:21 If they had—yeah. 31:23 To be a wallet for this, it would, yeah. 31:25 And does it have a different set of addresses? 31:27 Well, of course it does, because most notably the Zcash system has the Z address, the private Z addresses. 31:36 So really what you've created, it sounds like to me, is a bridge between Bitcoin and some other stuff. 31:43 And then this one, it's Zcash, but it could be memorable. 31:45 It's just a bridge? 31:46 Precisely. 31:47 And that bridge—so that bridge is a way of creating the new coins? 31:51 Yeah, you can take your coins and escape to a different piece of software. 31:55 Okay. 31:56 What does the Bitcoin blockchain know? 31:59 It just knows this transaction out? 32:01 Yeah, I have—in the talk I gave at TabConf, I do literally an exact slide of that, 32:06 and I say this is everything that's happening, and this is all that your full node sees. 32:09 But your full node only sees the little post-it note on the box. 32:13 And there are rules with the post-it note, but you want to get that post-it note from zero all the way up to that really high number, 13,000. 32:20 And that is the only thing the full node sees. 32:23 I don't understand about this getting this number up from zero. 32:25 Every block, the miners can move it up by one or down by one. 32:29 So they say, we want to eventually withdraw to this set, this transaction ID. 32:38 So you have a big list of people who want out. 32:41 Yeah. 32:42 Here's like 11,000 people who want out or whoever it is. 32:45 And they all want out, and they want to take their coins to different layer one addresses because they want to go back from the sidechain to regular Bitcoin core. 32:53 So what are you saying? There's a maximum of 13,000 of these that can happen in one go? 32:57 No, the 13,000 is the score, the threshold needed. 33:01 So maybe that was confusing. 33:02 Yeah, I'm totally confused by that. What's that for? 33:05 Let's just say there's eight people who want out in a given time period. 33:11 Someone wants seven coins to mainchain address number one, five coins to mainchain address number two, half a coin to mainchain address number three, and 33,000 coins to mainchain address number four. 33:25 So they select the sidechain output that has all the coins in the box basically. 33:31 And they say, we want out. We want to take coins out of the box. 33:34 So they say, this is what we want. It has a different little unique transaction ID, like a little code, a little bit of hex. 33:41 And then they take the post-it note away, and they write that little thing, and then they write the number one. 33:46 And they put that post-it note on the box. 33:48 And then when they find the next block, they take it away, and they write a two, and then it goes to three. 33:54 And then maybe it goes back down to two, or maybe it stays at three. 33:57 There's rules for what this little post-it note can do. 34:00 But if it gets up to 13,150, which is three months of finding blocks, then you're allowed to take the coins out. 34:11 And those are the BIP300 rules that are enforced by your mainchain node, not any of the Zcash stuff. 34:19 I still don't get that. Sorry. I have no idea what that means. 34:22 If I want to take them out, why can't I just take them out? 34:26 It's kind of like if you're trying to get someone out of prison or something, and they have interlocking gates, and they have buzzers and things. 34:35 Or they knock, like you see on a TV show or something, and the lawyer wants to leave. 34:40 The thing buzzes, and the first door opens, and they go through. Then it closes. 34:44 No, I understand the analogy. But what I'm saying is, why am I waiting up to 13,000 blocks to get my coins out? 34:51 Because those coins can go to any destination, because you're not checking the sidechain rules. 34:57 So you're ignoring the sidechain. So this is the whole miners can steal fake controversy, because this is like, it would take them three months to steal. 35:06 But all the withdrawals take a long time for security reasons. 35:10 So how many blocks to 13,000? 35:13 It's three months. 35:14 So it takes three months to pick out. 35:16 Yeah, but this is another misunderstanding, which is that the regular users wouldn't necessarily use this at all. 35:22 They can just go, they can swap either with like HTLCs, or they can just use an exchange or something. 35:28 They can go on Coinbase and say, okay, I have 12 coins. I have 12 bit Zs. 35:36 And I don't want bit Zs anymore. I want regular BTC. 35:42 So they sell their 12 to Coinbase, and Coinbase gives them like 11.99 BTC. 35:48 And then only one person has to actually walk the coins through the process. 35:54 So it's not 13,000 to go in, right? Just to come out? 35:59 To go in, it's instant. 36:00 It's instant, but to come out, it's 13,000. Right. Okay. 36:02 Exactly. 36:03 And why three months? Why 13,000? 36:05 Well, it was originally two weeks, and then people complained about it. 36:08 And I kind of almost regret even changing it because over time, it's become clear that people just complain about anything, even if they don't know anything about whatever. 36:16 But like I said, there's no real downside to making it longer. 36:19 But there is if you want your coins. 36:21 But this is the thing is anyone can swap the coins with you. 36:25 Okay. Who's going to put them in and be happy to wait? Is it Coinbase, you think? 36:29 Well, it could be anyone. There's a whole distribution of people, right? 36:33 People are very different. People are heterogeneous. 36:36 So some people are like an investment banker type person. 36:40 They'll take the yield. 36:42 They'll just say, listen, I buy these coins. 36:44 I get 12 from the person, and I pay them 11.99. 36:49 And you do that a bunch of times, and then you wait, and now you're getting basically an interest rate. 36:53 So we're talking about almost like money dealers here. 36:56 Yeah, it's like a money market. 36:57 Money market. 36:59 But literally anyone can do it. You understand? 37:01 So that's why it's very unlikely to have a real opportunity for it to go too off the rails. 37:06 But say I have 100 bitcoins sitting around, and I'm like, there's no use for this. 37:10 I'm going to get 100 of these Zcash coins, and I'm just going to sit around. 37:14 I'm not going to spend these for the next 10 years. 37:16 If someone wants to buy some Zcash off me, I'm going to charge a margin, and then I'm making my premium there. 37:23 So you say you wanted to buy one Z off me, and I'm going to be like, yeah, that's 0.99 bitcoin. 37:28 I've made 0.1%. 37:29 And I can just keep doing that, and at some point I'll be like, you know, I'm going to withdraw some out. 37:33 Yeah, that kind of makes sense. 37:35 Right, but what you're actually selling them is the 99. 37:39 You're giving them the 99 Z, yeah. 37:41 Okay, I understand. 37:42 You're collecting all the bit Zs, and then you're going to walk them back. 37:45 And then you get one for one. 37:46 And then you always know the peg holds. 37:49 It's always going to maintain the same value. 37:51 Yeah, that's the point is you want it to be very secure. 37:53 So that's why it's three months because the worst thing ever is if the peg doesn't work. 37:57 And, in fact, there have been Ethereum kind of versions of this idea that made it much shorter. 38:01 I think one was a wormhole or whatever where they made it like three hours, and it didn't work because that's too short. 38:08 There's no real downside to making it long. 38:10 The longer it is, kind of like the better because they have to declare in advance where they're taking the money. 38:15 Everyone can see it. 38:16 It's compressed down to this one little code thing that everyone can check against the sidechain. 38:22 The sidechain is going to be screaming the true withdrawal code at the top of its lungs in all directions. 38:29 We have it like in the GUI at the bottom in like a little ribbon. 38:32 So everyone is going to know what the real one is. 38:34 So if anyone tries a false one, people will know the same day. 38:39 And then they'll have to spend three months with the stigma of knowing that it's wrong but doing it anyway. 38:46 And then it'll be three months later if they finally succeed. 38:49 And if no one does anything about it, then they will be able to take the coins and send them to those withdrawal outputs. 38:57 And that is the whole miners can steal critique of this project. 39:00 But it's kind of a silly critique because they have to do this for three months. 39:04 Whereas if the miners were willing to do something like that, they could also empty lightning channels by blocking the blah, blah, blah. 39:12 Okay. I'm starting to get it. 39:14 So there can only ever be 21 million. 39:17 There's zero now. 39:18 Yeah. 39:19 But whatever you peg in pegs out of Bitcoin. 39:21 So there's no inflation here of coins either, which is cool. 39:24 It just allows you to create – have additional technology that can do other things. 39:30 Yes. 39:31 This is quite a big difference. 39:32 I think the better way – it must be easier. 39:35 Maybe people can imagine a world where you have even – like today you would have someone go on stage, someone like whatever, a safe dean or something. 39:44 They go on stage and they say Vitalik is the devil and we all hate Vitalik or whatever. 39:48 But in a parallel world with sidechains, you would imagine that history would just play out differently and the same person would go on stage. 39:56 For the same exact actual idea, they would say, oh, Bitcoin has all the best technology. 40:01 We have this wonder kid, Vitalik. 40:04 He's doing – turning complete sidechain on Bitcoin or whatever. 40:08 The Jeremy Rubin thing would be completely different also. 40:11 There would be no controversy about that. 40:14 He would just go and they would say, we're not ready for this right now. 40:18 He would just do it on a different piece of software. 40:22 This problem wouldn't even exist, the problem of how to coordinate the soft or hard forks or any kind of other activation. 40:29 Because really sometimes they're worried about inflation of total coins across all protocols, right? 40:35 Like just keep us all in Bitcoin. 40:37 Well, I mean that's why I think it's a no-brainer to – that's why the sidechain idea was so good I think. 40:43 I wouldn't say no-brainer. 40:44 There's another thing we'll come back to because we can talk about something. 40:46 There are obviously downsides. 40:48 We can talk through that. 40:49 Just help me understand. 40:51 How does this sidechain get its security? 40:54 Because the miners provide the security to Bitcoin. 40:57 How do they provide the security to the – does this sidechain just inherit the security? 41:03 Well, this is the idea – yeah, it does. 41:06 But this is the idea of merged mining which I think is also understood by a very, very, very small number of people. 41:13 Are you basically sharing the cryptographic proof? 41:15 Well, this is the thing. 41:17 The mining – like it's debatable if there is any cryptographic proof like in mining. 41:21 Like mining is – this is one of the things I remember Adam Back telling me. 41:25 Like when he first heard about Bitcoin, he was confused because – well, maybe this is a minute detail. 41:31 But the hash rate security is the cost of like the 51% attack more or less. 41:38 And normally in cryptography, they're like these unbreakable black and white situations where it's like it can never be broken by anyone. 41:47 If all the corporations and governments of the world combined, they would not be able to crack the – decrypt the message or whatever. 41:57 Or it's like very easy to do. 42:00 So it's black and white. 42:01 But with mining, it's this spectrum. 42:04 When mining first started, there was only a few people. 42:09 So the hash rate security was pretty low and now it's more. 42:12 Maybe in the future it will be even more. 42:14 Maybe it will be something else. 42:15 But whatever the – the way merge mining is, you kind of fit the sidechain block into a regular mainchain block and it kind of goes along for the ride. 42:26 Does that mean it uses up block space? 42:28 Well, it uses a tiny amount, but this is where the analogy breaks down completely because the sidechain block is referenced in the mainchain in a little tiny spot. 42:42 But the actual block itself is somewhere else. 42:44 Right. Okay. 42:45 So it gets – 42:46 So it uses a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of space to say like sidechain number four, like this hash of the block and like maybe a couple other things. 42:54 Yeah. So it does inherit the security then of the mainchain. 42:58 When the sidechain node is running, it knows – it must look – like I said before, like if you run our software or the zside software, if it can't find layer one Bitcoin node, it just won't do anything. 43:11 Because it's going to use that to figure out how many blocks there are, like what time it is, stuff like that. 43:18 Like if it's Saturday at 11.30, it's going to get all that from mainchain Bitcoin. 43:24 So it's sort of riding along. 43:25 But this idea is very misunderstood. 43:27 One reason is that – one notable fact about it is that it merged mining, which Satoshi invented merge mining in 2010 for Namecoin. 43:37 It's a very old idea and we've been doing it ever since. 43:40 It's another thing people don't realize that this is a very old idea that has been in continuous use. 43:48 But an intriguing fact about it is you don't modify the mainchain to allow this. 43:56 In fact, the mainchain cannot stop an unlimited number of chains from being merged mined. 44:03 There's nothing Bitcoin can do to even stop this from happening. 44:07 And instead, you modify the chain that's riding along, the parasite chain or the friend chain or whatever you want to call it. 44:16 If we ignore that everything but Bitcoin is a shitcoin argument for a moment and just say, look, there's different scales of altcoin, right? 44:23 Which I would say are different levels of credibility. 44:27 Now, for some people, they're all shit, right? 44:29 There's other people that they're not. 44:32 And when you get the people who are not, they would say, well, Ethereum has clearly proven its – forget all the issues with its scale. 44:39 Ethereum has kind of proved the case that there are things that people want to do on Ethereum. 44:44 Whether you agree with it or not, it does. 44:45 Monero has proved the case. 44:47 Zcash hasn't really got much adoption, but it's a different technology that does something different. 44:53 There's a handful there you could say that are doing something more interesting than the other 20,000 bullshit ones. 45:00 It feels like these ones would be the kind of ones that would be elevated into this and the bullshit 20,000 other ones just wouldn't even bother trying. 45:07 They would just – they wouldn't survive. 45:09 They would die. 45:10 And I think – 45:11 Yes, precisely. 45:12 I think one of the things, Danny, run through my logic here, that you can't – you wouldn't be able to price speculate on these coins because their price matches Bitcoin. 45:24 Yes, exactly. 45:25 It would be like putting $20 into an ATM and getting $20 in your checking account. 45:29 It would just be like the same thing. 45:30 So there's no incentive to put shit coins on here. 45:37 Yeah, it kind of would filter out all the shit basically. 45:40 Yeah. 45:41 I mean somewhat – that's what a lot of people think. 45:43 I mean I think that would be like 99% the case at least. 45:46 Yeah, well, it would because you're not – and it's not going to last if no one uses it. 45:49 Exactly. 45:50 And you don't have any – you have to have a real appeal. 45:52 That's exactly right as well is that if no one uses it, there just won't be coins over there, and then it will just die out. 45:58 But it would increase demand for the coins in the ecosystem, which itself would drive up the price anyway. 46:05 That's my logic. 46:06 Yes, that sounds right to me. 46:08 The thing that I can't get my head around is if you were making a project and you were a bit of a shit coiner, the incentive is to go and shit coin because you're going to make way more money. 46:16 Depends who you are. 46:17 Yeah, exactly. 46:19 If you're a developer – let's class these people differently. 46:22 A shit coiner for me is somebody who wants to profit off the coin, and that's their primary motivation. 46:28 If you're a developer, your primary motivation is to build cool shit, and this gets rid of all that incentive model. 46:35 It also makes Bitcoin more usable. 46:37 We're going to have to come back to why people are rejecting this. 46:39 But for me, to get rid of that price incentive on shit coins makes it a lot more interesting. 46:48 It's a lot more developer focused. 46:50 I think we have to keep in mind how many people who are today the sort of good alt coiners were ardent Bitcoiners in the past. 47:00 Vitalik was the Bitcoin Magazine co-founder and writer. 47:04 He was like the original Peter McCormack in a way because he was a Bitcoin Magazine guy. 47:09 We're very similar. 47:11 He was like a full Bitcoiner for a while, and then he tried his thing. 47:20 A lot of this story is disputed, but certain things are not really disputed at all, which is that he was a Bitcoiner. 47:28 He did Bitcoin Magazine. 47:29 He proposed this idea in Bitcoin, and then he was going to do it on some weird alt coin, and then he made his own project. 47:37 I think people are biased against Ethereum because it was really a terrible project in 2015 when it was being put together. 47:45 It was terrible, and I think it really has evolved slowly. 47:49 Not so terrible? 47:51 It's gotten 1% better every day. 47:54 Have you seen that meme? 47:56 Yeah. 47:58 Then when you get to that years later, it kind of evolves. 48:02 It's like a Darwinian evolution. 48:04 Okay. 48:05 So in your most objective way possible, what are the most valid criticisms of this, which you might not want to do? 48:13 And if you don't want to do it, I'll go speak to somebody else. 48:15 I think it's perfectly fair game for you to get the criticisms from the critics and not from me. 48:24 Where are you going to push back? 48:26 Well, people give me the miners can steal critique, but then I say that I think very few of those people really understand the whole three to six month thing, like what is actually required. 48:38 But also, miners can already steal from the Lightning Network, for example, by blocking the justice transaction, so they can already do that. 48:46 But no one complains about that in the Lightning Network. 48:49 And so when I tell people that, they usually just shrug and go away. 48:53 The more important thing with that is though, that is something that the user has opted into. 48:58 The user chooses to run. 49:00 I can remember the reckless meme with Lightning. 49:02 Yeah. 49:03 The user chooses to do this. 49:04 And certainly back in 2015 when I came up with the idea, a lot of the large blocker group, there's another group like Roger Ver was an ardent Bitcoiner and then there's Bitcoin Cash. 49:16 So another example. 49:20 But many of the large blocker people have said consistently their entire lives that they are fully okay with what they call the SPV level of validation. 49:31 This is maybe an esoteric topic that a lot of people don't know about. 49:35 This is a section in Satoshi's white paper about you only have the headers and you mostly, it's sometimes called trust the miners. 49:43 That's like. 49:44 You know how it is when something is shrunk to a little tagline, you lose all the important nuance, but it's basically. 49:47 But all that nuance is in the main block anyway. 49:49 Sorry, what did you mean? 49:51 So SPV means you're only carrying the headers of the block. 49:54 The headers are only 80 bytes each. It's four megabytes a year. So it's very easy to get those. 50:00 They prove all the work, but they don't prove the validity of the block. 50:05 That is why later on when the sidechain idea was invented, the name SPV proof came from that. 50:13 How is the block, the validity of the block proven? 50:17 There's no other way than to download every message and check that every message follows all the rules. 50:23 Sometimes people say that you can cheat with like the ZK-SNARK or something, but it's hard because you don't really know whether or not the ZK-SNARK has malfunctioned unless you also check. 50:34 By downloading every message and then redo the ZK-SNARK. 50:38 Someone needs to be the server as well. 50:41 So when you want to know what transaction is this, what has this transaction ID, what was the fifth transaction in block 700,000? 50:50 Someone has to be able to look that up and get it from somewhere. 50:53 So where do they? 50:55 Well, the full nodes have it all. 50:58 So this is why I say the ZK-SNARK thing is not really an end around. 51:03 So there's no other way than someone has to have all the data and you have to check it off for all the rules, which is hence the name of the full node. 51:10 Hold on, just another thing. 51:12 These sidechains or Drivechains, they have to have the same block time as Bitcoin. 51:18 They do, yeah. 51:19 You can do weird hacky things. 51:23 Like build five blocks and merge them together into one? 51:25 Yes. 51:26 It's like a secondary. 51:27 I don't even know. 51:28 It's so bizarre. 51:29 But you can have a secondary proof of work where you try to get other faster blocks to happen on the sidechain. 51:35 And then when it checks in with Bitcoin, it loads them all in. 51:39 It's like a blob. 51:40 But they could all have their own Lightning networks. 51:41 Yes. 51:42 But Liquid doesn't have the same block time, right? 51:44 That's true because it does not use merge mining. 51:47 It's its own thing. 51:49 I see. 51:50 Right. 51:51 Because Liquid is not really – there's no process behind Liquid. 51:54 It's just a multi-sig output. 51:56 And then it's kind of like a bank account or using Coinbase or something. 51:59 Maybe that's going a little too far, being a little too mean. 52:01 When Liquid was first proposed, the idea was it was only for funds on exchanges. 52:07 And the idea was all of the – you should ask Matt Corral about this because he's even tweeted about the origin of Liquid. 52:16 And he literally said about Blockstream's attempt to expand the scope. 52:23 On this exact topic, he had said basically this is a bad idea. 52:27 Don't trust anyone who says this. 52:29 Treat them like they're trying to steal your money. 52:31 He literally said that in public, which is the only reason why I kind of bring it up now. 52:35 But the original idea was you'd have all these exchanges, and the exchanges would be the 15 multi-sig people. 52:43 And so the logic was if you're going to have Bitcoin at an exchange at all, you might as well just have it on the Liquid sidechain. 52:50 Because you're just going from trusting one exchange completely to trusting like 11 or 15. 52:56 And then it was like the coins can move seamlessly among all the exchanges. 53:00 That makes sense. 53:01 So that was the original idea. 53:02 I remember when I'm back talking about it being like for trading. 53:05 Then it kind of expanded into like – I don't know what it is. 53:10 But say you're Bit Z sidechain. 53:13 Would that need its own equivalent Lightning network? 53:15 Yes. 53:17 Interesting. 53:19 Of course, if you copy the architecture, like you have a sidechain that's just a code fork of Bitcoin, then you can just copy and paste. 53:28 Okay. So we're going to have to talk to other people about this. 53:31 So you say one of the criticisms is that miners can steal, but you've got this three-month period. 53:35 Yeah, I don't think it's very – it's possible, but it's not – I don't think that – that's a risk. 53:40 I asked Peter Weil about this once in the Netherlands. 53:44 I said, do you think people should be allowed to spend their BTC on goods and services? 53:50 And of course, he says yes. 53:51 I said, do you think people should be allowed to sell the Bitcoin for fiat? 53:56 Of course, I say yes. 53:59 And should people be allowed to sell their BTC for an altcoin like Ethereum or whatever? 54:06 Of course, I mean you have to say yes, right? 54:09 So then this is just spending – taking a risk, spending the Bitcoin to a certain kind of script on layer one. 54:16 It's kind of like we have to respect the user's sovereignty. 54:20 And like I was trying to say, the Roger Ver people, the large block people, they were 100% okay with SPV for all of their transactions. 54:29 But that's the Roger Ver people. 54:30 But the other thing though is that transactions are very different, right? 54:33 It's like the sum that – where you don't trust the person maybe, and you need it to be – or for some reason, you need the reliability to be high. 54:42 And then there's all these other things where you're buying something from Amazon or you know the person. 54:47 And you kind of – the transactions don't all need the same level of like super, super, super ironclad like protection, right? 54:58 Some of them you have – you walk around with money in your pocket and maybe you'll get mugged and you'll lose. 55:05 But you don't have your whole life savings in there. 55:07 So there's a great – the transactions are all different as well. 55:11 Once BIP300 is merged in, say the soft fork is – just say it is. 55:20 Once that's done, all that is is a thing to create a bridge between that and the sidechain. 55:27 It doesn't have to do anything else. 55:29 Right. That's what it's doing, yeah. 55:30 Yeah. Because one of the things I'm thinking is like from my side is that I trust implicitly the Bitcoin developers in terms of the quality of the code, the way they review, make sure nothing fucks up, so I don't lose my Bitcoin, right? 55:47 Moving into a sidechain, I've got a different trust model. 55:52 That's right, yes. 55:53 Yeah, because I have to trust the ones working on that sidechain, right? 55:57 And I'm wanting to use that sidechain. I think it's cool. I like the people on it. 56:04 But I've got this inherent belief that it maybe shares some properties in terms of the quality of the developers, etc. 56:13 What's to stop those developers at some point doing an update to their code and then stealing all my coins and screwing me over? 56:22 Well, there happens to be – I think it's fundamental to the nature of the blockchain or whatever. 56:29 But one of the things when you activate on the slot, we ask people – this has to be optional because there is no way of enforcing it. 56:38 But we ask people to put the name of the sidechain, a little description, and then some of these hashes that determine what the software is, like version one of the software basically. 56:50 And it happens to be the case that if – that software is what's going to calculate the real withdrawal, the real thing that has to get to $13,150. 57:00 And so the only way to know what the real withdrawal is is to run the software. 57:05 If they do an update that happens to be a hard fork of their sidechain, then almost certainly the withdrawals coming back won't necessarily be the same. 57:16 And then that would probably just throw the network into chaos. 57:21 But I think the real answer is nothing because you want – I mean I just gave you a great answer why it would be impossible for them to take the coins in that way. 57:31 But really it's like you want – it's the same situation as when you buy Bitcoin in the first place. 57:36 It's like you are the user, and they have to entice you over there. 57:41 You say, I've got my layer one coins, and they have to say, come over here to BitZ land. 57:49 Well, BitZ land have a similar kind of like soft fork versioning. 57:54 Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. 57:56 Where are the holes for you? Is there anything you've spotted? 57:59 I don't think so that you've not brought up. 58:01 Have you searched criticism resolve? 58:03 I mean yeah. 58:04 There's another one. 58:05 There's a change in the protocol I guess is a big one like the soft fork. 58:07 Like is there any risk to that? 58:09 Well, I think it's very – we can certainly expect that once people create the sidechain, they're going to want to keep upgrading it because this is just the software, the world. 58:19 It's like it just always updates, right? 58:22 Like people can't stop themselves even when they shouldn't do it. 58:26 So it will be updating, and the soft fork I see as an institution that protects the user though from the developer because it says basically you can change these things, but you can't change too much or the software will basically – the different versions of the software will no longer cooperate. 58:41 What else have you found? 58:43 I mean the other thing that I think of is not really a technical question. 58:47 It's like it's why developers will build on it, not – like how would you make money building on this? 58:54 Yeah, I think that is a good question. 58:56 But again, I would like to go back to like the idea that like a lot of these people behind the good altcoins, they really were like driven – this is an opinion, but they really seem to be driven a lot by like their own creativity. 59:14 They wanted to make something new and they were inspired by something. 59:18 And they usually did – in a lot of cases, they did a lot of the work like before even becoming an altcoiner. 59:25 And I'm not saying that that's – certainly if you choose to make a new thing, you can maybe give some of the coins to yourself and you can do these different funding models. 59:34 But the thing is Bitcoin has to attract developers. 59:37 We have the exact same problem with Bitcoin, right? 59:39 Yeah, the exact same problem with Bitcoin. 59:40 You have to be funded. 59:41 You have to either get some kind of – you have like a rich sponsor or something, and people do do it. 59:46 It's not – I think like Roger Ver used to do this type of thing and other people would do similar things. 59:53 Yeah, where people would – and then in fact, I think the real problem is not the money in our industry at all, right? 1:00:00 It's just like sorting all the good ideas. 1:00:02 So, this is actually – we kind of improve it on that way because they'd say people won't go for an idea like this to work on as a developer unless they think users will actually use it. 1:00:11 And so, they have to keep in mind the user when they're creating the software, which I think would be much healthier than – 1:00:17 Could it fragment Bitcoin development? 1:00:19 Well, I think – what I really think Bitcoin development should do is we should get better at being conservative on layer one. 1:00:27 And we should say – my ideal thing would be to put BIP300 in and then just ossify layer one and move it all. 1:00:34 And then I was kind of even – if I could have my own way, then the vision would probably be to have like some kind of like ossified layer one and then even like two competing versions of Bitcoin core, like a kind of liberal conservative version or something where one would just start merging things soon after they're invented and then maybe the other one would catch up later. 1:00:55 But there's at least some recourse or some feedback. 1:00:59 You want to have some kind of feedback loop where if development is too slow, then people would move the coins to the more liberal world. 1:01:10 And if it's too fast and it's making mistakes and people are annoyed by that, then they move back. 1:01:16 And so, I don't think we'll ever agree on what you might call meta-consensus, like what the blockchain should contain. 1:01:22 I think people will probably continue to disagree about that forever. 1:01:26 And I think that sidechain is kind of a sort of an escape valve for that. 1:01:30 I mean I think most of the critiques are around the fact that it actually requires a soft fork. 1:01:33 And if you don't want it, then why would you want to signal that you did want a soft fork if you don't want to use Drivechain? 1:01:39 Yes, this is another unfortunate thing is that in 2015, this was not such a big deal. 1:01:44 In 2015 alone, I don't know if my memory is going to serve, but I think we did three soft forks in one quarter. 1:01:50 And we did maybe five in the whole year. That was the year of scaling. 1:01:53 There's more risk now, more at stake. 1:01:55 So then I like – so at the time, I was just kind of like whatever. 1:01:58 And then now, this modern, as you know perfectly well, the modern version is like to suggest any change to Bitcoin at all is like moving a button that triggers an atomic bomb or something. 1:02:12 But Paul, we've got a lot more at stake now in 2015 with hundreds of billions more in value. 1:02:18 Yes, I see why people are more conservative now. 1:02:22 I think though that it's not – I don't necessarily think it's very wise though if you really think about it. 1:02:29 I mean the risk of – there's a risk of going without it as well. 1:02:32 Which is I think Ethereum gains on Bitcoin like very slowly but in a cumulative sense, and I think why take the risk of anything? 1:02:41 Like if an NFT on Bitcoin does really well, that doesn't – who cares about that? 1:02:48 But if an altcoin does really well, then people start to get worried. 1:02:52 And I think this is a lot of why people spend so much time on Twitter and spend a lot of time listening to podcasts is because they're vigilantly waiting to see. 1:03:02 There's no limit to how good of an idea people can have tomorrow, right? 1:03:06 They're waiting to see will there be some crazy idea that like the entire government of Russia launches its own cryptocurrency or whatever, and they'll be like waiting for that. 1:03:18 Well, I like the idea that it doesn't – there's not new coins created. 1:03:22 I like the idea. 1:03:23 The one thing I really like about it, it takes away the incentive, the monetary incentive to shitcoin. 1:03:29 It makes it purely about development. 1:03:31 I like that. 1:03:32 Everything else I can't judge until I speak to some other people and just – yeah, I know. 1:03:37 What's the pushback you've had? 1:03:39 Like you must have discussed this with senior Bitcoin people. 1:03:42 Does it actually remove the monetary incentive to shitcoin? 1:03:45 Because the money is still there. 1:03:47 Well, I think those people – like what a shitcoiner will say is they'll say buy my new coin, and then the user will say why, and then they'll say it has feature X. 1:03:55 But in the sidechain world, Bitcoin could also have feature X. 1:04:01 And then sometimes what the shitcoiners say is, well, I would have loved to put feature X on Bitcoin, but I couldn't because of such and such. 1:04:10 They use the development – the Bitcoin development process is like a scapegoat. 1:04:14 And so that definitely could not happen in the sidechain world. 1:04:19 I think some people do say like the reason that people shitcoin is because shitcoining is just an infinite source of money. 1:04:29 And if that's true, then nothing is going to stop them from doing that, especially not my tiny little bit. 1:04:35 But it's not really true though because they need the pretext in order to do the shitcoining, I think. 1:04:41 I think some people shitcoin to pre-mine, bring something to market. 1:04:45 Those people will just shift to doing like NFTs, or they'll go back to pumping stocks or something. 1:04:49 And then I think there's some people who shitcoin because they believe in what they're building, and it's different. 1:04:56 Both can exist. 1:04:59 But what you can't do is you're not – when you create your sidechain here, Danny, you're not creating a whole bunch of new coins. 1:05:06 It starts with zero coins, and it only gains coins when people put Bitcoin into it. 1:05:10 I totally get it. 1:05:11 I just think that the market will – if you were going to start a project, most shitcoins pre-mine, right? 1:05:18 That's to fund the development for however long. 1:05:20 You've got to go out to people who are willing to just give you money to try and build a project. 1:05:25 That's a lot harder to do. 1:05:27 It's just like Bitcoin. 1:05:28 So it will follow the same funding model of Bitcoin. 1:05:31 There might be – chaincode labs might go, do you know what? 1:05:34 Let's build a sidechain. 1:05:35 So you'll always be behind, and then you're losing on the network effect. 1:05:37 Well, the thing is it's very easy to copy the altcoin. 1:05:39 So if they do some kind of weird thing to fund development or fund any other kind of software, like when we did the Zcash, 1:05:48 we created the sidechain so that as they update Zcash, we can just pull the updates over. 1:05:55 So you're really being very much like a parasite on the altcoin. 1:06:00 It's kind of sad. 1:06:03 It's kind of like a live by the sword, die by the sword kind of a thing. 1:06:08 See, that's the thing is Monero has much more traction than Zcash, but Zcash, the code is more similar to Bitcoin, so we kind of did that. 1:06:15 But also I think Zcash is sort of stigmatized by they have that weird tax in there, and they have – 1:06:21 Well, I think Zcash – 1:06:22 I think there's other reasons why Zcash would be better than Monero if it weren't for weird community reasons is my suspicion. 1:06:31 My understanding of the criticisms of Zcash is, one, it kind of is a company. 1:06:35 Right. I think all this is true. 1:06:37 It did have the tax, and I think the other one is that it had shielded and unshielded transactions, right? 1:06:42 And there's like a Sudoku protocol to actually crack it. 1:06:45 I actually – I think the – yeah, there's a – the Monero people love the whole private by default meme, so they run with that. 1:06:54 But I think that's a little overblown because think about it. You can always opt into less privacy, so everything is always – 1:07:00 I think it's more though. Isn't it like a Sudoku puzzle to try and crack? 1:07:04 What do you mean? 1:07:05 Zcash. So like I remember years – because it's been years since I listened to this. 1:07:09 I'm sure Laura Shin did a show about it once whereby you can crack the private transactions with like a Sudoku puzzle. 1:07:14 If you've got a little bit of information, you can then start figuring out what went to who. 1:07:19 Oh, I think – yeah, there's – relatedly, I think a lot of people misuse Zcash. 1:07:24 So I actually – in the sidechain, I built a GUI thing that I call Meltcast, which is again – this is a purely cosmetic thing in the GUI. 1:07:31 But that has to stop people from misusing it. 1:07:34 A lot of people, what they do is they take like – it's like 13.123 Bitcoin, and they put it into Zcash. 1:07:39 They swap it for Zcash on like whatever, an exchange. 1:07:42 Then they put it into the Z address, and then they pull – 10 minutes later, they pull 13.004 coins out, and then they think that they mixed the coins or something. 1:07:55 I think a lot of people don't misuse the privacy, so I made it like two buttons to click. 1:08:00 So what's the pushback you'll get them? 1:08:02 Like why is it – you have to – 1:08:05 I think – well, I mean you should get it from them. 1:08:10 My honest opinion though is that a lot of it is irrational or like psychological or something where people think, well, if it would give Roger Ver and Vitalik what they want, then there must be something wrong with it. 1:08:22 I think a lot of people can't do that. 1:08:24 I don't buy that. 1:08:25 I think another thing is that like I said before, people feel really responsible for – they want their code to be pristine, and they trust the Bitcoin core developers. 1:08:36 This is shifting to a world where it's kind of like anything can go. 1:08:41 Like you send it to a weird sidechain, and inevitably there will be bad – someone will do a sidechain that has a mistake or something bad will happen over there. 1:08:51 Then people think, well, we're going to be – our reputations are all going to be on the hook for that. 1:08:56 So I'm giving like a blank check or a blank slate to these people, and they think, well, we don't want something like to happen. 1:09:04 Of course, that happened anyway with like Celsius and things where it had basically nothing to do with Bitcoin at all, but we're still tarred by it. 1:09:11 So I think that's another thing. 1:09:13 I wouldn't use the Celsius as an analogy. 1:09:16 I think that's different. 1:09:17 I'm just saying like things that can affect the brand, the Bitcoin brand. 1:09:21 Yeah, but again, I think that's different. 1:09:23 But I do buy that as a reason not. 1:09:25 That was one of the things I brought up. 1:09:27 What about – do you think there's any kind of protectionism around Liquid with this? 1:09:32 I do wonder about – I think people maybe are afraid to go against – they see Blockstream as representing like a kind of center of gravity for the technical consensus, and they just think, well, do I want to poke the dragon or something with that? 1:09:48 They probably think maybe not. 1:09:49 I don't know. 1:09:50 It could be related to that. 1:09:53 I don't know. 1:09:54 I ask a lot of people, and they'll say something weird. 1:09:59 They'll say, well, I don't really have any problem with it, but I think other people have a problem with it. 1:10:03 They're like a round robin, and they can't quite nail it down. 1:10:06 Do you have any high-profile supporters? 1:10:08 Well, I think – I don't want to get them into trouble and name them or something, but I think I do have most of the elite people at the top. 1:10:17 I think Adam Peck has always been a supportive tweeter, and even other people. 1:10:23 I think Roast Beef and Lightning and stuff. 1:10:26 So I have a lot of people at the top, and then people beneath them in the pyramid are big critics. 1:10:34 I don't know if – but I don't – why should it be about who supports it? 1:10:38 I don't know. 1:10:39 I guess it's because a lot of people just can't understand the technology themselves. 1:10:42 It's getting that social consensus. 1:10:44 Well, I agree with that. 1:10:46 I agree that it's the wrong thing to do. 1:10:48 The idea has been around for a while, and I agree that it's the wrong thing to do is to force it on someone if they don't consent to it, 1:10:55 and they can't really consent to it unless they understand it. 1:10:57 It has to be informed consent. 1:10:59 We do that anyway. 1:11:00 With SegWit, you were talking before about how people understand. 1:11:06 People have to be talked into the software, and it's a big process, but many people supported SegWit for a while. 1:11:12 It was clear they didn't understand it at all. 1:11:14 Even years later, they didn't realize that it was a block size increase. 1:11:18 They didn't realize that it changed it so that a transaction that had used more bytes could be charged less in fees than a non-SegWit transaction that used fewer bytes. 1:11:29 So people clearly didn't understand basics about it at all, and they just kind of went with the – for the Twitter likes. 1:11:37 What about Matt Carollo and Andrew Polstra? 1:11:40 What do they think? 1:11:41 Well, I think Andrew Polstra is not really a supporter per se, but I don't know. 1:11:46 You should ask him recently. 1:11:47 I mean he was like doing the miners can steal thing or something. 1:11:50 So I think a lot of this was like Peter Todd came out with the miners can steal as like a meme after Blockstream published the SPV proof, and then they did another thing. 1:12:01 Deep in the technical community, there was this belief about merged mining that I think is backwards of the truth. 1:12:08 So I think that that's part of why they abandoned their Appendix B and their sidechain aspirations because they were like the merged mining gives an incentive for miners to run full nodes of all the sidechains, and of course all the altcoins that are already merged mine today, of which there are dozens. 1:12:31 And so this is supposedly a bad thing because there could be an unlimited list of sidechains that would be profitable to run, and then they'd basically be forced into running them. 1:12:43 But I don't think that this argument is sort of backwards because there's an unlimited list of everything that miners have to do in order to stay competitive. 1:12:51 Whatever – if someone is doing the natural gas flaring and you're in a similar situation but you're not doing it, then that eventually becomes mandatory for you. 1:12:59 So really everything is mandatory. 1:13:00 What happens if they don't? 1:13:02 That's the point. It's really no different than any other business decision they would make. 1:13:06 They would look at the revenues and the costs and the risks, and they would just decide. 1:13:10 Whether they want to run that. 1:13:11 Whether they want to do it. There's no difference between running it. 1:13:13 The prejudice is because this particular mining activity takes the form of blockchain software. 1:13:20 That's why people thought they were responsible for it. 1:13:24 This idea of responsibility I think is big where people think they're going to be responsible for everything that happens, but I think it's a mistake. 1:13:33 They have to take out a piece of paper and make columns, and they'll realize they're not responsible. 1:13:39 Bitcoin developers are not responsible for what miners do. 1:13:44 Miners are going to invent all kinds of wacky techniques. 1:13:49 For years, they already were doing their own weird software stuff. 1:13:53 They all shared a mempool at one point. 1:13:56 They were doing what's called SPV mining. 1:14:01 It's going to be really confusing to keep reusing this abbreviation. 1:14:04 They were doing a different type of mining where they weren't validating. 1:14:07 That led to this event in July 2015, I think. 1:14:10 They were doing this thing called spy mining. 1:14:13 They do all this stuff. 1:14:15 They're specialists in their own field that is basically unrelated to this. 1:14:20 The only important thing is you want to keep the layer one node very cheap to run. 1:14:26 Ideally, you want to ossify it as well because plenty of people, such as Luke Dashjr., think you have to always run the latest version. 1:14:36 Then I say, how do you know what the latest version is if you're not involved in the technical community? 1:14:41 Then Luke will say something like, I hope I'm not mis- 1:14:45 representing his view. I think I'm representing it accurately. He says basically something like, in order to really run the Bitcoin node, you have to be involved in the technical community. Then it's kind of like, well, that's like... Then you understand that makes running a full node really expensive, right? Because now you're... Luke thinks you should, 70% of the people, Bitcoiners, should be running a node as well. Yes, right. I even ask him, what about people who 1:15:12 they would never become Bitcoiners, but if they were ramped up and they start with Custodial and then they go to SPV, and then like three years later, they're on a full node. 1:15:21 But without the ramp, they would never make it. And then there's just nothing to say to that. So I don't know. 1:15:27 I don't know, man. Is there anything we've not covered in this? 1:15:29 Just one quick thing. I understand the moral thing of wanting to build everything on Bitcoin. But if the idea is to go out into the altcoin market to see what you think is cool, and then take that 1:15:42 code and build on a sidechain on Bitcoin. Does it just become like a morality test to shitcoin? Because if you go out, you like prediction markets, right? 1:15:51 So if you go out and you take Augur, and you copy that code and you put on a sidechain, why not just use Augur? 1:15:58 That's an ironic example, because I created Truthcoin as a sidechain of Bitcoin before there were sidechains. And Augur is a fork of the Truthcoin project. 1:16:06 But the reason why is because everyone would rather use, it's the Metcalfe's law, it's a network effect of money. People are not going to want to use all these different forms of money. 1:16:20 You know what I mean? 1:16:24 Does Augur not have network effect in the price prediction market? 1:16:28 There's a difference between what you would use as money in these markets. All the sidechains would use Bitcoin as money, they just pay the transaction fee in Bitcoin. 1:16:38 There could be other assets and other things trading on there, like whatever, NFTs or other markets, other derivatives and things. So those would be their own thing, and they have their own price, of course. 1:16:50 But the real reason is because there's no, like, the sidechain equalizes all the tech. So now the monetary network effects are really all that would remain. 1:17:02 So if you're the smallest one, this is a very old anti-altcoin argument, like, you're the smallest altcoin, you're in a kind of like, you know, like a Mexican standoff where it's kind of like, is this network going to be around? 1:17:16 And so then maybe people move from that to the second smallest, and the smallest one dies, and now you're the new smallest, and then everyone's thinking two steps ahead. 1:17:25 So there's a rush to get into the biggest coin. 1:17:28 But the sidechain idea is to equalize the technology so that that's not a basis for competing at all. 1:17:35 So you just say, well, I already own all this Bitcoin, and I can now use it in any of these projects if I want to use it. 1:17:44 But then as an investor in a coin, you think, well, I've invested in whatever it is, like Zcash the coin, but now the, you know, Zcash the coin now is not, since anyone can do what Zcash is doing, then you have to wonder about, why am I holding the coin? 1:18:07 Because I must be holding it for the monetary network effects. 1:18:10 Yeah, makes sense. 1:18:12 Yeah, sweet. 1:18:13 Anything we didn't cover, we didn't ask you about? 1:18:17 I don't know. 1:18:18 I don't think so. 1:18:19 So, tell me your background. 1:18:24 Do you really want to know? 1:18:25 I just, I used to work in academia. 1:18:28 I was a statistician. 1:18:29 Okay. 1:18:30 Makes sense. 1:18:31 I was a statistician at the Yale Department of Economics for two and a half years. 1:18:35 And then I worked, I did some other things before that that are kind of boring. 1:18:42 But mostly was right out of school into that, into being a statistician. 1:18:45 And then I came up with the Truthcoin prediction markets idea that later became several projects, including Augur. 1:18:53 But it's still waiting at Bitcoin Hivemind for sidechains to come to Bitcoin. 1:18:57 It's its own great project. 1:18:58 You could do your own, you could do a whole other episode about that. 1:19:01 I think the prediction market is way misunderstood and misused. 1:19:07 And as soon as people put the pieces together the right way, it will be better than the printing press was for the Middle Ages. 1:19:16 So, huge potential there. 1:19:19 That's going to be a great sidechain. 1:19:20 We'll do that show. 1:19:21 Yours truly, one day maybe. 1:19:23 And so that was, so I wrote that and then Roger Ver hired me away to quit. 1:19:29 That was a long time ago. 1:19:30 That was how I got into Bitcoin, via the Roger Ver experience or whatever. 1:19:35 And then that was for only a little while. 1:19:39 Maybe a year and a half and then I did some more things. 1:19:42 We can cover that though. 1:19:43 I'm interested in prediction markets. 1:19:44 Let's get you back on this time we're in New York. 1:19:46 We'll talk about it. 1:19:47 Also, you look a lot like my brother, which is really weird. 1:19:50 I don't know if you noticed that, don't you? 1:19:51 Oh my gosh. 1:19:52 I do. 1:19:53 Yeah, you look a lot like my brother. 1:19:54 Okay, if people want to find out more about Drivechains, where can they do that? 1:19:57 Yeah, drivechain.info. 1:19:58 That's it. 1:19:59 Easy as pie. 1:20:00 It's all up there. 1:20:01 All right, man. 1:20:02 Well, look, appreciate you coming in. 1:20:03 Sorry we started late. 1:20:05 I understand a lot more about it now and I think I know why I like it. 1:20:08 I like it for the thing that you're unsure about, but I do like it. 1:20:12 I like that fact that it just gives me one currency to go around and do all these other 1:20:16 things. 1:20:17 I like that a lot. 1:20:18 So that's cool. 1:20:19 All right, man. 1:20:20 Take care. 1:20:34 Take care.