0:00 Alright guys, it's been an eventful week, we'll have a lot to get into, Taiki's half 0:28 dead, but he's here as well. 0:31 I saw all the memecoin rugs and I've been dealing with a severe headache recently, so 0:36 apologies if I'm less talkative. 0:40 We have a guest, we'll be learning about Bitcoin from someone, I think it's our first Bitcoin, 0:45 I don't want to say maxi, because he seems very open-minded, but Bitcoin-focused for 0:51 sure. 0:52 So Paul Sztorc is going to be with us, we'll talk memecoins, we'll talk markets, we'll 0:58 talk Bitcoin, and a lot of interesting stuff. 1:02 So let's hit the intro, let's get going. 1:22 Guys, episode 55, it's been quite a week, we have hopefully a continued recovery happening, 1:38 but we'll kick off maybe with what happened Monday morning, it was a bloodbath across 1:44 entire macro space, not just our little land of crypto, but I saw some of the numbers in 1:53 Nikkei and some of the Asian indexes, they were just having minus 14% days, which is 2:00 pretty insane, that's a Solana shitcoin kind of daily volatility. 2:07 Can you tell us what happened, Jordi, what's this Yen trade everyone was talking about? 2:13 Yeah, so basically the Bank of Japan has been trying to get out of their insanely negative 2:20 rates, they've been doing all this yield curve control, and they raised to like 25 bips, 2:27 which is not a lot, but it's enough to get some of this free money that was literally 2:32 just borrowing for free back into Japan, and a lot of it was in things like the Nasdaq. 2:38 Lo and behold, Nasdaq collapses and suddenly the Yen goes up, and it was more than expected, 2:44 it seems like it rattled them so much that they came out the next day and put out statements 2:49 that we're going to slow down, don't worry, we're not going to just keep raising like 2:54 this, we're watching the markets. 2:57 The Fed has not necessarily flinched, I think there is no emergency rate cut priced in right 3:04 now, and they're still looking at maybe just doing 25 bips in September, so this is not 3:09 like something that's immediately being fixed, there might be a continued rotation out. 3:15 But it feels to me that that was like one excuse, the main thing is just that markets 3:20 have been overvalued, we've seen a lot of the AI companies in the last few weeks before 3:28 this even happened start to have questions asked once earnings came out, you're spending 3:35 all this money to invest but there's no actual revenue. 3:39 So hopefully it's just a healthy correction, but I would say unfortunately crypto took 3:50 a rather large hit, and a lot of our brethren had positions liquidated. 3:58 Yeah, lots of people got hit pretty hard. 4:02 So I'm curious, Jordy, we've been seeing rumors of I guess Jump just selling a bunch of ETH, 4:09 like I guess unstaking their staked ETH, sending it to exchanges. 4:13 What do you think is happening there? 4:14 Of course, it's all speculation, we don't really know. 4:17 But do you buy the rumor that they're getting proved by the CFTC and they're exiting the 4:22 industry? 4:22 What's your take on that entire situation? 4:26 Yeah, so I'm very familiar with Jump as a broad company, I've been competing against 4:31 them for my entire trading career. 4:34 They're in the same markets all the time. 4:38 And I know a lot of people that work there. 4:39 So I understand how they operate. 4:42 But it did take me by surprise that they suddenly sold off all the ETH. 4:47 I think that they had recovered from the wormhole hack. 4:49 There's like all this like 300 million that started getting sold off and I think is now 4:53 being eradicated into the market. 4:57 I wasn't sure why it was happening. 4:59 I was suspecting that maybe it was related to some settlement with the investigation 5:05 going on as to their UST Luna repegging and all that. 5:12 But the more we find out, it doesn't look like they are necessarily exiting crypto completely. 5:20 It's a very lucrative trading business. 5:22 So even if they get out of some of this project VC type of stuff, they're still going to be 5:28 dominating the markets as they have been with their infrastructure advantage. 5:33 So I can't imagine them switching that off. 5:37 It definitely is a seven-figure-a-day business for them. 5:42 But for whatever reason, they decided this was the time to sell an enormous amount of 5:50 ETH. 5:51 We don't know what they did on Bitcoin side. 5:53 There was a lot of weakness on Bitcoin before the macro mess started. 5:57 And I have to say, I feel quite humbled because I did feel like after the Trump speech, I 6:04 was expecting that that was such a momentous occasion. 6:08 And at the time, equity markets were at all-time highs. 6:11 This was before they even flinched. 6:14 I thought we were going to have a little bit of a breakout. 6:17 And I couldn't put my finger on it. 6:20 It just felt like there was somebody selling for no reason related to macro. 6:26 And this is the thing with trading. 6:28 You can get all the normal parameters. 6:31 What's macro doing? 6:32 What are stocks doing? 6:33 What's the regulation doing? 6:34 Everything looked positive. 6:36 And somehow we were still hitting this resistance and selling off. 6:39 And, yeah, I mean, we were questioning last week on our show whether it was the government 6:44 dumping on us. 6:45 And it does feel like the external was selling, just chose that moment. 6:52 Maybe it was Jump. 6:53 Who do we blame this for? 6:54 Jump, it's safe to say. 6:57 There was a little video circulating with Kanav, who is no longer the president, but 7:03 he was the ex-president. 7:04 Maybe we can put a few seconds of this video up. 7:07 Terra Luna was an algorithmic stable coin. 7:10 We knew this thing didn't fucking work, but the young Asian kid had everyone fooled. 7:14 Now, as the exclusive market makers for USDT, we controlled the peg. 7:19 And, look, I know you're not following what I'm saying anyway, right? 7:23 That's OK. 7:24 That doesn't matter. 7:26 The real question was this. 7:27 Was all this legal? 7:30 Absolutely fucking not. 7:32 But we were making more money than we knew what to do with. 7:35 There you go. 7:36 It's pretty good. 7:37 Kudos. 7:38 Kudos to whoever put that together. 7:41 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's been turbulent. 7:45 Obviously, we've had a little bit of recovery. 7:47 So the collapse hasn't eradicated everything. 7:52 Bitcoin crossed back over 60 somehow after crossing below 50. 7:56 So this has been a wild few days. 7:58 We have Iggy Azalea, who is quite new to crypto, just now realized that Bitcoin is going to 8:04 crash, just now realizing how insane we are in the space. 8:07 She says, I don't think I ever expected crypto to be this insane. 8:10 Literally, one day it's to the moon, and then the next day it's all over. 8:14 And you'll make up your minds. 8:16 She's one of us. 8:19 She's learning. 8:19 She's learning. 8:22 But yeah, I mean, I would say ETH has hit an all-time low of sentiment. 8:27 We've been saying that for months, but I've never seen what I saw this week. 8:32 Obviously, it underperformed Solana and Bitcoin. 8:36 And we had Cain, you know, one of the main builders in DeFi of synthetics, just say, 8:43 fuck it, and just publicly kind of go after Vitalik for not supporting, you know, DeFi 8:48 enough and maybe being a bit in the clouds. 8:52 I don't know if we can find the tweet. 8:54 But the good news is, for all ETH heads like Justin, I don't know if he's still part of 8:59 the club, but this tweet by Cain, where he says, if the only thing propping up your chain 9:05 for the last five years is DeFi, and the best you can muster is begrudgingly tolerate it, 9:10 you're anti-DeFi. 9:14 This actually marked the bottom of ETH. 9:16 You know, we've kind of rallied substantially since then. 9:21 Well, I don't know about substantially. 9:23 Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 9:26 Let's bring up CoinGecko and see where we are. 9:27 I haven't checked. 9:28 And for a background for reviewers, I think Vitalik, he only supports like Maker and Uniswap, 9:34 and he doesn't really like anything else, which is kind of weird, right? 9:38 But who knows? 9:39 Maybe he's living in his own world. 9:41 Well, I've also mentioned this. 9:43 I've heard him speak just like Cain, and he has this sort of perspective of like, I've 9:48 already made it, and now that I've made it, and I don't actually think he thinks this, 9:52 but he comes across as like, I've made it, and now that I've made it, let's just focus 9:56 on making Ethereum like a public good for all, and let's focus on charity work and not 10:00 actually like building use cases that the people are interested in. 10:04 Yeah. 10:05 So yeah, just to quickly go here, I mean, you know, Bitcoin only down 5% on the seventh 10:09 day. 10:09 Obviously, you know, it was going down slowly before that, as we said. 10:13 But ETH down 15. 10:16 Solana also down like around 5. 10:18 So ETH still the underperformer, even though it's made a little bit of a bounce back. 10:24 So much pain. 10:24 So much pain. 10:26 Yeah. 10:26 And some of the shit coins, I mean, Tron is up, XRP had some good settlement, and Ton 10:33 got listed on Binance. 10:34 So some things are doing all right. 10:38 But yeah, let's find out a little bit like, you know, why Bitcoin is so resilient. 10:41 We have a guest that is deep in that land. 10:43 So Paul Sztorc is here, CEO of LayerTwo Labs. 10:48 Hello, Paul. 10:50 Hello. 10:51 Hey, guys. 10:52 Thanks for having me. 10:53 Absolutely. 10:54 Can you tell us, like, what is LayerTwo Labs and, you know, what? 10:58 Well, you know, I started this company because everyone in Bitcoin has just given up on the 11:04 goal of making Bitcoin something that 8 billion people would use and that would change the 11:10 world. 11:10 And instead, people are settling for something very, very, very small, which is just something 11:16 that there's only 21 million units of. 11:19 And there's no reason for it because we can very, very easily obtain all these other things. 11:27 It's just a stone's throw away. 11:29 So that's why I started the company. 11:31 And it's based around this idea of the sidechain or the Drivechain, more precisely. 11:38 And that allows you to send Bitcoin to other pieces of software and back. 11:41 And those pieces of software, they have their own blockchain. 11:45 They have their own block size limit. 11:46 They have their own code. 11:47 They have their own features. 11:48 So you can do is we have like a clone of Zcash. 11:51 We have, you know, you get planetary scale immediately with sidechains because you can 11:57 just have as many as you like. 11:59 And the issues of the full nodes costing a lot of money to run in the large block universe, 12:07 that doesn't really apply in the sidechain world because you can just kill the sidechains 12:10 off at any time and just restart them. 12:13 So it's kind of like a caching layer in a way for Bitcoin. 12:18 A lot of in many ways, it's like what people thought the Lightning Network would be. 12:22 But people did not think about the Lightning Network. 12:25 I think for the first time in the last month, I feel like even the Lightning Network believers 12:30 are kind of capitulating. 12:32 Like it seems that that's not a very long time. 12:35 Yeah, but it's finally happening. 12:37 It's happening very slowly. 12:38 I mean, there was a you could go to tab conferences ago, I think, which would be nearly three 12:45 years ago, since these are in late September, October. 12:52 Matt Corallo gave a talk called Lightning is Broken AF. 12:59 And then there was a subtitle that was like, and maybe we could fix it or whatever. 13:03 But that part, that half of the presentation was not as persuasive as the first half. 13:09 The first half is broken. 13:11 Because Lightning is broken. 13:12 And then everyone just kind of keeps going through the motions. 13:15 You know, everyone just keeps going through the motions. 13:17 And you just always have these people who are like, you have all these people who are 13:21 just saying like, OK, they come to BitDevs or something and there's flood and loot. 13:27 There's some attack. 13:28 And then there's how to mitigate it. 13:30 The whole thing is just a bunch of academic, you know, nonsense. 13:34 How much do you get from the Bitcoin community these days? 13:38 You go to the conference, you listen to like the Bitcoin. 13:41 Yeah. 13:42 Well, I thought you asked how much I'm very in the Bitcoin community. 13:46 And I go to all the conferences and I talk to all the people. 13:51 So if you want to know where the bodies are buried. 13:54 Sorry. 13:55 Yeah, it's a sentiment like very high, like, you know, at the moment with, I would say 14:01 like the, yeah, like the political acceptance and, you know, price doing relatively pretty, 14:07 pretty OK. 14:08 Well, I think Bitcoin, unfortunately, has evolved a culture that is not the self-criticism 14:15 is is has diminished enormously from where it was like back in 2011, 2012. 14:20 It was very strong. 14:21 But now everyone's just supposed to get on board and, yeah, engineer the Trump bump or 14:27 this other stupid crap that people talk about. 14:31 So. 14:33 So, yeah, I do think that everyone. 14:35 Yeah, you're not supposed to like criticize lightning too much because that's stabbing 14:38 Bitcoin in the back. 14:39 If you say something like lightning is going to fuck up Bitcoin, it's these people are 14:43 empirically leeching the life out of Bitcoin. 14:46 And if we want Bitcoin to succeed, we have to get rid of this idea. 14:49 If you say something like that, you won't be as popular as if you're just like some 14:52 Jack Mahlers and you just go up on stage and you just say everyone will be every CVS will 14:58 have lightning in eight months, which he said like three years ago or something, something 15:01 to that effect. 15:03 Justin, do you feel like this thing is just no one cares? 15:06 Yeah, macro does the talk. 15:08 Bitcoin is broken and just no one cares. 15:10 So the whole thing is unfortunately like just this weird cultural disaster, I think. 15:15 I feel like it could be worse in a theorem because there's this concept of a theorem 15:20 alignment and projects and chains are either, you know, a theorem aligned and to what extent 15:26 it's like you get a report card from the theorem foundation and they say like, oh, you know, 15:31 you're not using the availability layer, you're using external DA. 15:35 So you're only like a 6.3 out of 10. 15:38 We're not going to. 15:39 And like there is this kind of politics and it does feel like people are getting a little 15:42 bit fed up with that part. 15:44 Do you have any sense of this, Justin? 15:46 It does seem like that's sort of fading away. 15:48 I think to an extent for like the last, excluding the last three months when things have sort 15:54 of changes before that, like the previous three, four years, you had this bankless premium, 15:59 I think, and this is oversimplifying a little bit, but like if bankless enjoyed your project 16:03 and talked about it, there's like a premium and crypto Twitter and just in the space in 16:07 general of acceptance of this project, this project being in that good. 16:11 Now, I think with the theory, I'm sort of faltering. 16:14 I think obviously it's a little depressing seeing ETH BTC, ETH USD, sole ETH, ETH doing 16:20 so poorly across all three dimensions. 16:22 But I think now is a time where like you can be critical of ETH again, just like Paul, 16:26 you're saying like it's good to be critical of Bitcoin. 16:29 So I think that that tide is shifting as we go through this challenging period that I 16:32 think Bitcoin really probably faced in what, 2022, 2021 to some extent when everything 16:38 was outperforming it and people were questioning the value of it. 16:41 Now, Bitcoin is having this renaissance of the values there. 16:44 It makes sense. 16:45 But we have that question again, where if it makes sense with Ethereum. 16:49 And so I think like to the extent that this could be good for Ethereum with people taking 16:54 a step back and actually seeing like, how can we make sure we're building the best chain 16:58 possible for what we want to achieve? 17:00 Yeah, I mean, Paul was telling us backstage about this sense of complacency. 17:05 And we were telling him like Ethereum has definitely had that same thing. 17:08 And, you know, I run like a trading firm and there's where you just, the algos just make 17:14 money for months. 17:14 You don't, you know, they just autopilot and you get complacent. 17:19 Things change, the market changes. 17:20 And then you start asking all the questions like, what's going wrong? 17:24 What do we need to, and it's healthy because you can make the changes. 17:29 Let's bring up this comment here. 17:31 Some people are asking about thoughts on Zcash. 17:37 What's so funny? 17:40 How is that relevant? 17:42 I mean, it's Zcash. 17:43 Is that still relevant? 17:47 Well, I mean, Paul, you said like there's like a form of Zcash. 17:50 You mentioned Zcash privacy. 17:51 Yeah. 17:52 So like a sidechain is good if it has an actual feature that people like. 17:56 So this is like the Gwart, like it's so, I feel to give, it's giving someone too much 18:04 credit to say this is like the Gwart critique that we have to care about the user. 18:07 No, we love Gwart. 18:08 We've had Gwart on. 18:10 This should be like a basic one-on-one thing that everyone takes for granted. 18:15 But instead, this is the joke is that he just keeps writing these tweets about there are 18:19 no users or, oh, I was going to try to improve the software for my users, but then I remembered 18:25 I don't have any users or, you know, stuff like that, like that type of joke. 18:30 So I mean, the Zcash is like doesn't have, they don't have users, but it's not because 18:36 the feature is bad. 18:37 The code actually is good, but they don't have users because of just network effect. 18:43 They have huge dev tax. 18:45 It's sinking the market price of the coin. 18:49 So it's like low on coin market cap. 18:51 So this stigmatizes the coin. 18:53 Yeah. 18:53 I mean, Justin is laughing at me, but there's a reason why I bring up the Zcash as a kind 18:58 of entree into this topic, which is, you know, we often talk about monetary premium and things 19:04 like Zcash don't really have a, like they're meant to be money, right? 19:10 Like that's kind of their intention, maybe it's privacy money, but it's meant to be a 19:14 form of currency. 19:16 And yeah, you know, that's a sad chart when in a world where Bitcoin is like. 19:25 Right. 19:26 But it's kind of, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said network effect. 19:29 And so my thoughts on Zcash are it doesn't have anywhere near the network effect. 19:34 So how can it be successful even if the tech is a little bit preferential? 19:39 You need to reach such a high level. 19:42 And I've tweeted about this for years that like the benchmark for monetary premium, so 19:46 to call it, is so high that it's not just a matter of like, you know, the tech is OK. 19:52 You really need like, you know, millions, hopefully, like you said, billions of people to 19:57 participate and be distributed to have like a fairness factor where why are all the coins 20:01 where they are? 20:02 OK, like there's a reason if Zcash suddenly like, you know, goes to the price of Bitcoin 20:08 and you have Barry Silbert back from the back from the grave suddenly being our 20:12 overlord because he because he owns all of it, that's not going to work out much. 20:18 Well, I want to stress something about the sidechain point of view. 20:20 It's something of a paradox, because the sidechain point of view says, in one sense, 20:25 we must copy all of the tech from everyone else. 20:29 We want all the tech. 20:30 So you have Bitcoin L1, but then you have Zcash L2 or you have Monero L2 or you have 20:37 ETH L2 or you have Solana L2. 20:40 We don't want anyone to be turned away. 20:42 But the paradox is that you also don't care about the tech because you because I believe 20:47 in this world where there will be sidechains in the future. 20:53 Once that happens, it won't nothing. 20:56 Everyone will have equal tech. 20:57 So there's no point in like doing the R&D on the tech today because you will never 21:03 monetize. 21:03 You can't monopolize it. 21:04 The only thing that you that is not the only thing that's inimitable, the only thing that 21:10 you cannot imitate is the network effect. 21:13 And this is why Bitcoin, again, the whole thing is very nuanced because everything kind 21:18 of contains its opposite in a way. 21:20 But it's like Bitcoin has this strong network effect, which gives it all this strength. 21:24 But that also means that it can onboard all these useless parasites and it can just like 21:30 kind of like be too slow to innovate. 21:33 There's a Mark Andreessen from A16Z. 21:39 He always said this. 21:39 He has this huge disagreement with Peter Thiel about Peter Thiel's pro-monopoly and Mark 21:45 Andreessen is anti-monopoly. 21:46 And I really think Mark is right because he says the motto of every monopoly is we don't 21:52 care because we don't have to. 21:55 So you're in this strong position. 21:56 You just think, well, I don't need to innovate. 21:58 I don't need to put wheels on the, you know, on the line. 22:01 Yeah, I mean, now that you talk about the innovation. 22:03 So, you know, in my land of my other hat, like the VC hat, we're seeing a lot of Bitcoin 22:10 L2s, obviously, as you know, in the last year, there's Botanix and BitLayer and all kinds 22:16 of L2s built on Bitcoin. 22:20 Are these, because L2s are different than sidechains, you know, they're actually trying 22:24 to, I guess, like. 22:26 Well, my view is the sidechain is in the category of L2. 22:29 This is an unfortunate thing where people really trip over the definitions of things. 22:34 I think it's maybe not as important as people might think, the whole definition. 22:36 I mean, let's just talk about the thing. 22:38 Each, we could talk about each individual idea or a concept. 22:42 I don't know if that will help or not. 22:43 But yeah, I mean, we've had things that are, you know, like Merlin, where it feels like 22:50 it's more of like a TVL game. 22:55 So, yeah, this is a new thing. 22:57 I had honestly never really, people did not use the TVL phrase frequently. 23:07 It wasn't big, like I'd heard of it, but until very recently, right? 23:11 I don't know. 23:12 This is like the new. 23:14 It's a DeFi thing. 23:15 It started like in DeFi land, you know. 23:18 So maybe it's a Bitcoin experience because in Bitcoin world, we just assume like all 23:23 that ETH stuff will either just be copied into BTC or is like a scam. 23:26 And of course, 99% of everything in the industry is a scam. 23:29 Yes, 99% is a scam. 23:32 But can I just ask a qualifying question? 23:36 It is harder to develop applications on Bitcoin. 23:38 We know that. 23:39 Ethereum and other chains, not just Ethereum now, have a flourishing ecosystem where it's 23:44 easier to develop. 23:46 Why will people, in your view, migrate all of this tech that they've spent building in 23:50 an environment that's friendly to building, move that over to Bitcoin where it's really 23:54 hard to do and Bitcoin's very behind? 23:56 The builders will not. 23:57 And they will fight it tooth and nail, in fact. 23:59 But this is a Marxist theory that we should do whatever the workers want. 24:03 And it's like the consumer will prefer. 24:07 The consumer will look at the same tech stack. 24:08 Why will the consumer prefer Bitcoin? 24:10 Because you have Bitcoin versus ETH and Bitcoin has the network effect and it has whatever, 24:15 Donald Trump and Michael Saylor, their savior. 24:19 And if you buy Bitcoin, you get to suck Michael Saylor's dick or whatever. 24:22 So that will be enough to just get everyone. 24:24 So it's a price thing then? 24:27 The price is not completely, again, it's a difficult thing. 24:30 It's all about what is inimitable. 24:32 So there's only one person can be the number one slot. 24:36 And then you roughly attract people in proportion to how big you already are. 24:41 It's like gravity. 24:42 So you have like a black hole. 24:43 It's sucking in more planets. 24:45 It's becoming stronger. 24:46 And this is just network effect reality. 24:49 Now, I want to stress that the network effect is not, it's not like a one shot KO or something. 24:56 You know, it's not like the golden gun from... 24:59 you know, a golden I64. It's not like you get the network effect and then you just win. 25:02 Yeah, because you were telling us before that you do think there's going to be one winner, but you're not even 100% sure it's Bitcoin. 25:07 I'm definitely not 100% sure. Yeah, I think it is Bitcoin. 25:11 Let's do a little thought experiment. What if it's not Bitcoin and it is something else? 25:17 Is it going to be something, is it going to be Ethereum or is it going to be like something that hasn't existed? 25:23 I think it would be something new that is like sort of calculated to appeal to not only the existing network effects people, 25:33 but also just new users, because there's got to be a rotation when you have your investing hat. 25:41 So you think, OK, I'll buy this for $10, but then the price will go to $100 and then the price will go to $1,000. 25:50 There eventually will reach a point where the market price cannot increase anymore. 25:56 And the only way to justify holding the coin is that it does become money or has some kind of convenience yield or it does something. 26:06 The coin has to be doing something. So it does have to eventually translate from basically equity into revenue, so to speak. 26:16 I mean, this is speaking very loosely here, but the market price is sort of like the stock price. 26:22 And then this is, again, kind of loose. But it's like the transaction fees paid in the block. 26:28 That is kind of like the sales or the revenue or something. 26:31 When you see attempts like Zcash to make an alternative or Monero or you could even say Luna, this type of thing. 26:44 I have a similar mental construct as you in that I see them as they're like rockets trying to escape the atmosphere and they go up. 26:53 But if they don't actually escape the gravitational pull, they just come back down and crash. 26:58 But maybe one day one of them will, if it's designed very well. 27:02 Right. I think the rocket is a great metaphor because there are so many, at least in the pre-Elon, pre the Elon revolution, praise Elon. 27:11 But there was many stages and you would have to do everything in the exact right order and separate and do all this stuff. 27:19 And you had to have the life support working. So it's a very complicated project. 27:25 And it also crucially depended on timing. You accelerate the rocket at the right speed and you will make it out. 27:33 But if you go too fast or too slow, the friction, you either burn up or you'll run out of fuel before you get far enough away. 27:41 Or you also, or you'll, the pressure will not be right and the chamber will explode. 27:47 So you have to thread a needle through a high, very high dimensional space. 27:52 I think that's exactly the same. 27:54 Can I ask a question, Paul? 27:57 Sure, sure. But let me just say something about Zcash, which is it's debatable whether or not Zcash, 28:02 how committed they really are. A lot of people just, they want to work on their little tech baby, you know? 28:09 And they think, oh, I'll get someone to fund this. 28:11 And then a lot of things in the space, many of these L2s, many of the altcoins, 28:16 there's just, people are not actually focused on building something that a lot of people use and enjoy. 28:22 They actually are not. It's the tech people want to work on their own tech that they like. 28:27 A lot of people are doing money laundering and the altcoin is just a vehicle for that. 28:34 And, or they're just, you know, they're just, it's not even in the case of Zcash. 28:40 It's could just be with Litecoin and stuff. People just want to move their coins around a lot. 28:44 Shuffle the coins around. They want to have a lot of different stuff. 28:47 I do think a lot of people say, like, there used to be, like, 28:53 Ricardo Spogni, creator of Monero, not quite the creator, but, you know, the lead guy, lead spokesperson. 29:00 He used to say, like, you should put $500 into every shitcoin. 29:04 And this is partly what you should do if you think one of them will win 29:10 and it will become this huge asset that is worth, you know, if there were 21 million units, 29:15 it would be $20, $30 million per coin. But you don't know which one. 29:20 Well, yeah, then you should be throwing $500 into. 29:23 What do you think about, like, all these, like, runes? 29:25 But Justin had a, he had a thing that he was going to say first, right? 29:29 We have to go in the right order. 29:30 Thank you, Paul, our new moderator. 29:32 You know, you mentioned Peter Thiel, so I wanted to circle back to it. 29:37 Peter Thiel has this theory, like, to supplant the existing competitor that has already a foothold in the market, 29:43 you have to build something 10x better. 29:45 So, like, an example would be, like, Uber 10x better than taxis, so everyone's going to switch to it. 29:49 You talked before and you were sort of just talking about now people migrating over to Bitcoin from Ethereum land 29:55 or existing smart contract land. 29:57 But I just don't see that happening, right? 30:00 Like stable coins on Bitcoin are not going to be 10x better. 30:02 An AMM on Bitcoin is not going to be 10x better. 30:05 But I actually throw it around. 30:07 I kind of throw it around back at you and say, I don't think the Ethereum, I don't think the Ethereum, 30:13 most of these, the early, right now, it's still kind of early days, actually, 30:17 because it's not a function of time. 30:20 It's a function of, like, users versus employees. 30:23 So, like, if we were going to build something like an amusement park, we haven't let the normal people in. 30:28 We're still, like, building the rides and testing them, like, on ourselves. 30:31 It's like real mechanical engineers are riding the rides to make sure that they don't, like, explode or whatever, 30:36 whatever the metaphor is. 30:38 But we haven't let, the laypeople still don't understand what the point of this technology is. 30:45 And we don't have a lot of normal users, if that makes sense. 30:49 I'm trying to say, like, grandma or whatever, like, layperson. 30:52 And people still don't quite get it. 30:54 Like, they don't quite, although now I think people are getting closer. 30:58 One of the things that's closer is, like, the Web3 login. 31:01 And, but, like, transactions use case has been suppressed. 31:06 The DeFi use case is very hard for people to understand because to a regular person, 31:10 it really looks as though it's just a bunch of useless stuff that's all being rearranged. 31:15 You know, it's like a casino where you, it's either it is just a casino or it's a casino with chips that you can't cash out. 31:22 Or, like, people don't, they don't understand what the social function of this is. 31:27 They don't agree that it's a bank, like Bitcoin, saying we're going to replace the banks with something better. 31:32 But people don't agree with that yet. 31:34 Whenever I listen to, like, Bitcoin podcasts and dive into that world, and I have dived in pretty deep. 31:41 It does feel like, you know, there's been this ongoing purity test of, you know, nothing else matters. 31:48 It's just the asset and we're trying to replace fiat currency. 31:51 That's it. 31:52 Versus you see more open-minded cap and even Michael Saylor, you know, since he's so invested in miners and everything else. 31:59 He's been happy with some of the, you know, recent renaissance of ordinals and runes and, you know. 32:04 Michael Saylor is truthfully happy with the ordinals. 32:06 I think he did a quick calculation politically in his head and he was like, this has already happened. 32:11 It has some people who really like it. 32:13 It has some people who really hate it, but they are on the losing side. 32:17 So I think that he, I don't think that he would get out of, I don't think he got out of bed like three years ago and said, 32:26 Oh, you know what Bitcoin really needs is more tokens on BTC. 32:31 Right. 32:32 I don't think that that's how he thinks at all. 32:34 But I want to just finish what I was saying to Justin, which is we haven't, no one has opened the door. 32:38 There's like Bitcoin park, Bitcoin theme park and Ethereum theme park. 32:42 And no one has really opened the doors yet. 32:44 In my opinion, it's still early. 32:46 People have yet to actually deploy something that I think is a consumer facing app with the exception of stuff like ordinals and runes and ERC20 and stuff like where people just like to just have meme coins. 33:04 Meme coin is like the first ride. 33:07 And so I actually think that the question is flipped around where eventually the doors will be open for Bitcoin and for ETH. 33:13 And ETH will just be, it'll be something that has the same features as BTC, but it won't be number one on coin market cap. 33:18 And so that's why I think people, it's Ethereum that's not 10x better than BTC yet. 33:24 Although there's no limit to how complacent BTC can get and how badly we can screw everything up. 33:30 We're already, we already have many address formats and we already have, now you cannot import a private key because the wallet is being deleted. 33:39 And we now have descriptor wallets, which are like made by the devil. 33:43 So, so pretty soon it'll all just be ruined. 33:46 Yeah. 33:47 In another three or four years. 33:49 Yeah. 33:50 Just to keep on track. 33:51 So we did mention like, you know, some of the, like you said, shit coins that maybe are the first ride, but there's a lot of people in Bitcoin land that don't like this kind of stuff. 34:00 They don't want the NFTs. 34:01 They don't want any of this stuff. 34:02 You seem to be okay that let people play. 34:04 How about a ride? 34:05 It's fine. 34:06 Consumer sovereignty. 34:07 Yeah. 34:08 Is OP_CAT going to be a good idea and kind of. 34:14 Well, the OP_CAT is a good idea, but there's many dimensions to this, which is why haven't we done many soft forks right now? 34:22 We used to do three or so a year or two. 34:24 We used to average two a year. 34:26 It was not hit that way. 34:28 But once we did three in one single go in the end of 2015, we did check lock time, verify, check sequence, verify, and like something else. 34:37 I don't remember the exact list, but anyone can look it up. 34:39 I have tweeted about this list before, and you can just see many soft forks in the past. 34:44 Then with SegWit, the political will to do the soft fork collapsed. 34:50 So my view is that the reason why OP_CAT is now getting attention is because it's very short. 34:56 It's only a few lines of code, whatever, 11, 14, 15, depending on how you count. 35:02 And it's very small. 35:04 It just concatenates two things and puts them back on the stack. 35:08 So it's pretty simple. 35:09 Why is it not happening? 35:12 So I think that what people are doing is people are slowly realizing that it's like you have – I'm not sure what great metaphor I can come up with. 35:25 But it's like you have this – the patient is sick. 35:28 The soft fork can cure any disease. 35:31 But people are slowly realizing we actually can't. 35:34 The medicine box that has the cure, the soft fork, we can't get it open. 35:38 And now people are just panicking, and they think, well, OP_CAT, that is pretty simple. 35:43 And Udi and Eric, they shrewdly calculated. 35:48 They figured this out before. 35:50 They said, okay, they understand the lay of the land. 35:53 So they knew OP_CAT would be the one that people would focus on because all this other stuff about CTV has been corrupted because Jeremy Rubin is the scapegoat. 36:05 Jeremy Rubin did nothing wrong. 36:06 Like all scapegoats, Jeremy Rubin did nothing wrong and, in fact, did everything right heroically. 36:10 I don't even know who Jeremy Rubin is. 36:12 He created CTV. 36:13 Check template verify. 36:16 It's Joseph Rubin's brother. 36:20 I think we're learning more and more about the multi-year drama of Bitcoin land. 36:27 Yeah, I've got all the Bitcoin lore that you want and probably too much. 36:33 So if it goes on and on, I mean, I don't have any specific question. 36:37 But you asked about OP_CAT. 36:39 I'm telling you, like, the OP_CAT part is not the relevant part. 36:43 Yes, OP_CAT is a good idea. 36:44 Yes, we can and should add it with Soft Fork. 36:48 I have a way, by the way, this thing, CUSF, I have coded a way. 36:52 If you go to BIP300CUSF.com, I have an OP_CAT CUSF in addition to BIP300. 36:57 This is a Core Untouched Soft Fork. 36:59 So this is a way of activating OP_CAT without even changing Bitcoin core on GitHub or changing the binary of Bitcoin core. 37:06 You have a second. 37:07 Somebody in the chat is asking if you've got a quantum cat. 37:11 I don't have one yet, but I feel like my relationship with Eric and Udi is, you know, I feel like I should be getting stuff from them. 37:21 The floor price has been pretty steady. 37:23 I feel like lots of diamond hands in the quantum. 37:27 But those guys are great. 37:28 You know, here's what I wanted to bring up about this is I don't think that they even care. 37:36 I think what they understand, OP_CAT does a lot of things because there's already op codes that can do other parts of what is basically a Merkle tree. 37:44 So I'm glossing over some technical stuff here. 37:46 But basically, if you want to have these trees of things that are very compressible because they're like Merkle tree, the OP_CAT is the only missing ingredient. 37:56 So it's not the OP_CAT part. 37:58 It's like they want this other thing where they want to do these various roll ups and things that they want to unlock. 38:03 ZK proofs. 38:04 Yeah. 38:05 Right. 38:06 And so I think like Udi and Eric, the Taproot Wizards people, the OP_CAT people, some of the meme people. 38:17 I'm talking about the meme people. 38:18 I'm not talking about the technologists. 38:19 Yeah, you know, the meme people. 38:20 Exactly. 38:21 Yeah. 38:22 They just like they think that it's kind of like siblings and they can tell one of the siblings really wants something. 38:28 So then they kind of like, oh, they play with that toy first, but they don't really want it. 38:33 They're just like that. 38:34 No, this is mine now. 38:35 Now you have to ask me for it or something like that. 38:37 They're playing some kind of like funny little game with that, which is which is fine enough. 38:41 But it just shows you this whole process is completely irrational and defective. 38:44 What in a sane world, all the miners would know or they would have some kind of counsel or they have some kind of thing where they just think in their head. 38:52 Will this make us more money? 38:54 Will we get more transaction fees? 38:56 Will we get a higher Bitcoin exchange rate? 38:58 And then they would do it and there would be no nothing else would happen. 39:02 But instead, all this other crazy nonsense happens because of block size war and other soft work drama that is this is strangling. 39:10 Well, Paul, let me let us give you a sense of, you know, the crazy nonsense that can potentially happen on Bitcoin. 39:20 We have a segment. 39:21 We have a segment this week called what's new in meme coin land. 39:26 And you'll hear kind of like for a few minutes, some of the crazy things just this week in meme coin land happening. 39:34 A lot can happen. 39:36 A lot can happen. 39:37 We each have a story about a different meme coin. 39:39 So we have three meme coins we're going to get into. 39:41 But everybody, please like and subscribe and we'll we'll dive in. 39:46 Maybe Taiki, you want to you want to maybe start with like the Pacmoon drama? 39:52 Yeah, sure. 39:53 I mean, maybe this is like the least controversial out of the three. 39:56 But, you know, Pacmoon was, you know, obviously based off of Pacman, right? 40:03 The founder of Blast, you know, Pacmoon to the moon or whatever they were talking about. 40:07 I think they had like a hundred million dollar market gap during the Blast farming season. 40:12 And there's been a lot of drama between the Pacmoon founder and the Blast Foundation because the Blast Foundation is not really supporting native coins within their ecosystem. 40:22 So now Pacmoon has decided to leave Blast for Solana, I believe, which makes no sense. 40:29 But, I mean, you know, I guess it drives more attention, right? 40:34 Complaining about this on Twitter gets like thousands of impressions. 40:37 So maybe it's good for the token price because otherwise no one would care about it. 40:42 It's pretty rough for the chain if the literal meme coin based off the founder of the chain just says, like, screw it, we're leaving. 40:52 Yeah, I don't really know what their vision is. 40:56 There's some utility. 40:58 I think they're trying to be like this social pie, right? 41:00 Where Pacmoon is this, you know, tipping token where if you post something and people like it, then you can send other people like Pacmoon and stuff. 41:08 It did pump a lot, you know, like around May, like 100 million. 41:11 Now it's close to 100. 41:14 And now it's, yeah, it's in the depths of it looks like a Blast token chart, basically. 41:20 It kind of pumped when they said they're going to Solana, at least like a little bit. 41:24 And it reminds me that things have changed since like a year ago. 41:28 This time it was the exact opposite. 41:30 I think Rollbit had changed their token from an SPL to ERC-20 and started mooning because they kind of tapped into the liquidity. 41:36 And now the liquidity has moved. 41:38 So, yeah, I mean, I saw Pacman himself put out a statement after this happened and saying, you know, sorry, like we will be supporting. 41:47 It just took a while. 41:49 And these guys left before we were going to about to do it. 41:54 So, I mean, as a founder, like it definitely makes you reflect and see. 42:00 And I don't know how much how much a change should support. 42:04 Obviously, like Solana has been supporting their meme coins quite a bit. 42:07 I think a lot of it has to do is like just look at the Blast token price. 42:11 The FDV is now about a billion. 42:13 It's basically been down only mode. 42:15 People thought this thing would be 5x higher from here or even more than that. 42:19 And I think like to some extent, the Pacmoon meme coin founder, like the price is going down on Blast. 42:27 Their meme coin is going to go down with it. 42:29 And there's just this desire to do something and move chains. 42:32 I don't know if like it's sort of my theory that people are going to be upset no matter what you do if price goes down. 42:37 And, you know, I don't know how much this is the desire to go to Solana, even though there's more speculation there and just the relative underperformance of Blast. 42:45 But I don't really blame Pacman for this, for not, you know, providing the right incentives for builders and token launchers on the Blast chain. 42:55 Yeah. 42:57 We'll see if they I think it looks like they rebranded the army. 43:01 So we'll see if they're successful. 43:04 Okay. 43:06 The right name. 43:07 It doesn't matter what it does. 43:09 You know, this is what you're building for on Bitcoin. 43:13 I do think that this type of thing should be allowed, even though it should not really be like emphasized or encouraged. 43:20 Yeah. 43:21 It's celebrated. 43:22 Right. 43:23 What it is, the whole securitization process, like the idea that someone you have someone, an entrepreneur with a good idea who's poor. 43:33 And then you have some rich people down the street who get money under the mattress doing nothing. 43:38 And the question is, should the poor person work as a janitor for 20 years, save up a lot of money and then launch their idea, their idea for a new engine or something? 43:52 You know, that's a horrible way to run society. 43:56 There's a shortage. 43:57 We definitely I knew new ideas is. 44:02 That is in short supply. 44:03 And so the idea that you'd go to the rich people and you say, I'll give you shares in this corporation, I'll pay you back after the engine makes a lot of money, I'll pay you back. 44:10 Give me the cash now. 44:11 That's doing nothing. 44:12 They get a return. 44:14 The entrepreneur who's poor quits their stupid job that is poorly allocated with their labor is inefficient. 44:21 So this is like why we would want people. 44:23 I don't understand. 44:24 I'm going to say issuing coins is issuing stocks, collectibles, having like being able to join control who's in a club. 44:31 You start a club with your friends. 44:33 You say whatever, a baseball club or whatever you and and to be able to bet on things. 44:39 All this stuff is that's very healthy. 44:41 But the idea of just creating something and just saying this is a Pac-Man coin. 44:48 This is all because we don't have good banking, I think. 44:51 Actually, none of this would happen if if Bitcoin, if the Bitcoin network worked for banking, if it had already taken over. 44:58 No one would want to do this, I think. 45:00 Or it would just be like there will be there will be no such thing as banking. 45:05 We're going to want to gamble. 45:07 There is recreational gambling is, of course, things that some of the people do anyway. 45:11 But but I think that there's nothing wrong with like people should be allowed to do what should be allowed to do this. 45:18 But we want to live in a world where we there are so many other ways of just taking a gamble on something. 45:27 Like what if someone said three entrepreneurs are starting a new whatever spaceship company or something. 45:35 And you kind of research them all and you think, I don't know. 45:38 And then you and your friends, you kind of like have fun and you say, I'll mostly invest in a you mostly invest in B, you mostly invest in C. 45:47 Well, now you're still getting all the fun of recreational gambling, but you're actually funding a real thing. 45:52 Paul, Paul, Paul, like zoomers don't have that attention span. 45:55 They want to bet on hamster race, you know, which which hamster is going to go quicker than 10 years. 46:00 Doesn't I think you may be right about that. 46:02 I think the zoomers may actually be it's it's it's a it's a cliche to to put down a certain generation. 46:09 But I do think it's hard to do. It's hard to survive without an attention span. 46:13 I think it's hard. It's hard to make a lot of money also or like do anything important and anything worth doing in life. 46:19 Like can these people could these people even play like SimCity? 46:22 I wonder about like if they would even be able to play that game, like something that people people born in the 80s thought was really fun. 46:30 Yeah, like run the city and run the traffic and run the taxis. 46:34 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if Gen Z would like just kill themselves. 46:39 Like after 10 minutes of that, I think they would. 46:42 And I think you'll agree after these two to two more meme coins. 46:46 Justin, you want to go? Yeah. 46:49 So I took my first real big hit of the 2024 year on the Trump from the Trump guys, the Trump boys. 46:57 So Donald Trump Jr. and the other brother for the past week or so, starting on like October 6th, 7th, 47:04 they have been hyping up this idea that the Trumps were going to launch a project in the crypto space, 47:08 which it sounds like they're still standing by and they're still going to do. 47:12 There was speculation on around the seventh. 47:14 This was going to be like a real world assets, real estate company. 47:17 People were looking into the trademarks, the filings. 47:20 Everyone was getting excited. Fast forward to this all happened yesterday. 47:24 Things are moving very quickly. 47:26 A new token was deployed on Solana called RTR, Restore the Republic. 47:31 And in sort of all of the established group chats on Telegram, 47:35 a lot of established and well-known people on crypto Twitter were coming out and saying, 47:40 this is the official Trump meme coin. 47:42 Donald Trump Jr. is going to make a tweet any second now saying RTR is the official Trump meme coin. 47:47 And everyone was bought in. 47:50 I got caught up in the hype myself and got burnt by this. 47:52 So I heard about this early. I was in a group chat. I thought I was early. 47:56 I heard about RTR at about five cents. 47:59 And at five cents, I see like credible people saying this is the official Trump coin. 48:03 So I bought in. And for like two hours, I got the whole Solana thesis. 48:08 I was euphoric. This thing went from five cents to 15 cents. 48:11 I was counting all my chips before they were cashed in. 48:15 Everything's going great. 48:17 And then suddenly it turns out that this is not an official Trump coin. 48:23 So Donald Trump Jr. tweeted out saying this is not the official project. 48:27 We love what you guys are doing, but this ain't it. 48:30 It turns out that there's like pretty good evidence that the Trumps were actually involved 48:34 in like talking to the ConPyPandas founder from the Solana ecosystem 48:39 to launch this meme coin and rugged the people building this, the ConPyPanda guy. 48:45 And Donald Trump Jr. then came. He did like this. I'm not going to play it here. 48:49 But he did this live podcast where he talks about how RTR isn't the real token. 48:53 And they have a real, real project. 48:56 But like right before Trump Jr. announced that RTR was a fake coin, 49:00 there was like a lot of insider dumping. 49:02 And so there's a lot of speculation that the Trumps are dumping on crypto people 49:06 launching now the second scam Trump coin. 49:09 I got burned by this. It's a little unfortunate. 49:12 I think all of the crypto people for Trump are going crypto for Kamala now 49:16 after we've been burned by Donald too many times. So we'll see what happens. 49:20 I think what happened, to add more color, is this was supposedly the real one. 49:26 But I think Icebags told all his friends about it. 49:30 And then his friends told other friends about it. 49:33 And there was like this cabal that formed. 49:35 And they were all like, OK, let's buy this up, buy this up, buy this up. 49:39 And then they started shilling it on Twitter. 49:41 And then the Trump people were like, wait, this is not good. 49:45 This is not fair. This is insider trading. 49:48 Yeah, they were supposed to do that. 49:50 They were supposed to do the insider trading. 49:52 Allegedly, they were locked up for six months. 49:55 They were doing this right. There was proper vesting. 49:58 This thing went from 0 to 100. 50:00 Because you just sign a forward contract or a futures contract. 50:04 You just say, listen, I will get this in six months. 50:06 There's really no such thing, I suppose. 50:07 I mean, maybe a little bit. 50:08 But I do think that you invite this situation in when you say that you will buy something that is just because it's endorsed by a celebrity. 50:20 If the celebrity has the full power to either make or break, they say, well, that's not the real one. 50:25 So they could do this 100 times in a row. 50:27 You know what I mean? 50:28 They could say, I'm doing something big. 50:30 Only they know that number 97 is the real one or that number five is the real one. 50:34 So they can do it. 50:35 They don't have to do it across time. 50:37 You know what I mean? 50:38 They just launch. 50:39 They say they create 100 rumors. 50:41 They say, I will launch. 50:42 I will launch Paul coin. 50:44 I'm sure no one has done that. 50:47 Launch Paul coin. 50:49 But there's like 12 different Paul coins. 50:51 And then I say, this is. 50:52 But I don't. 50:54 You pump and dump first and then you tell people which one it is. 50:56 So you're inviting this situation where it's something that the person can make or break the coin. 51:03 They're the only one who can make money in this. 51:07 No one is to blame but you, Justin. 51:09 That's the bottom line here. 51:10 Well, listen, Jordy, in the pre-show you shared this bold Leonidas image of the two Trumps cackling together. 51:20 So then I bought a bunch of the supply and bailed five minutes before the launch. 51:26 I did the same thing with Shkreli. 51:28 Listen, I'm not to blame for this. 51:31 I'm the victim, okay? 51:32 It definitely happened twice. 51:34 And, you know, there was a lot of anger against, you know, the CompiPanda's guy and even, you know, SizeChad and anybody else who tweeted against this. 51:45 And it kind of is a bad look because even if it was the real one, they're still, you know, caballing to kind of like push it. 51:54 So either way, it's just like there's not a good look. 51:57 Although, you know, I have to say it's all gray areas. 52:01 It's in a black and white. 52:02 You know, what's the difference between them caballing a coin and, you know, Pepe getting caballed and then, you know, everyone is happy because it does go up a lot. 52:12 I think in this case, people are angry that there were wallets that sniped and then dumped and made like millions of dollars. 52:18 And it's unclear who those are. 52:20 And somebody out there has done well. 52:23 And that's, I think, what makes people angry. 52:26 And we'll see how that plays out. 52:30 But given what happened. 52:31 But if you're not willing to be angry, then why are you happy when you make money on meme coins? 52:37 Because it's the same thing. 52:38 I will never be happy. 52:39 Don't worry about that. 52:41 Yeah, we hold ETH, so we're never happy. 52:48 Wait until Bitcoin releases its 84th address format. 52:52 With no actual, no real innovation. 52:57 Then ETH will look really good. 52:59 Yeah. 53:00 So I have like one more meme coin to talk about, which is unfortunately the Doge OG passed away. 53:09 Kabosu. 53:10 Yeah. 53:11 Kabosu is dead. 53:12 The family got a new coin. 53:14 And apparently, this is like how the human ingenuity is being used these days, Paul. 53:19 This is where all the great minds of our time are being used. 53:22 They made scripts to try to make a meme coin as soon as the name was announced. 53:27 So they're waiting for the family to announce the name of the new Shiba Inu dog. 53:33 This is like the FOMC. 53:35 You're aware of this with the Fed. 53:37 People do this where the Fed puts out whether the rate cut and people have like advanced computer science. 53:42 Jordi does this. 53:43 That's my life. 53:45 Yeah. 53:46 I did the whole PDF. 53:48 So this is you probably doing this script. 53:50 This is me. 53:51 It's Jordi. 53:53 Jordi is dumping on you guys five minutes before the next episode. 54:03 Oh my gosh. 54:04 Those effects. 54:06 Wow. 54:07 Yeah. 54:10 The dog was right over your head, Paul. 54:12 I digress. 54:13 So bottom line, a ton of scripts got the name Nero. 54:19 N-E-R-O. 54:20 They made shit coins. 54:22 And obviously Solana right now, you know, you have like Pumped Up Funds. 54:26 All this is so easy. 54:28 So two Solana meme coins started around the same time. 54:33 The first one apparently, you know, was going up and went up to like nine figures. 54:40 And apparently Ansem, who is, you know, the Michael Saylor of Solana, let's call him, because his opinion kind of moves the mountains there. 54:50 He got on Twitter spaces and said, guys, no, it's not that one. 54:55 I like the other one. 54:56 Even though everything's the same, it's the same name. 55:00 Maybe you can bring up the deck screen here, Justin. 55:03 We can look. 55:04 So I think this one was the – which one's which? 55:10 This looks like the one that – well, it's a nine million. 55:15 They do like when people are walking down the street and they're like Americans and like, where is Iraq? 55:20 And then they have a different map where Iraq is like over Australia. 55:24 And people are like, oh, and they put like a pin in. 55:26 Yeah, for these charts. 55:27 Like which one is the real one? 55:29 Oh, and everyone's just like, what? 55:31 You know, the funny thing is like they've both ended up being around 10 million FTV now. 55:36 So here's another one. 55:37 It doesn't make any difference. 55:38 All's well that ends well, you know? 55:40 Yeah, there seems to be another one about the same price. 55:43 Maybe all the people launching these projects and promoting them also lost track. 55:48 So it's just like a random crapshoot now. 55:52 They have to be the same. 55:53 They have to be the same in every way, the same price, because they're just the same. 55:57 They're fungible dog meme coin. 56:03 Not exactly, not exactly. 56:05 Because even like the ticker, you know, there's – 56:08 Is there a – do you know which ticker is which? 56:11 Well, that's my point. 56:13 That's my point. 56:14 That's my point. 56:15 No, there's a ticker called Bitcoin, right? 56:17 There's a Bitcoin. 56:19 Yeah, but people know how to tell that one. 56:21 They know how to tell that one from the real Bitcoin. 56:23 Because? 56:24 They could run a Bitcoin full node. 56:27 I mean, I don't know. 56:29 Swimmers are not doing that. 56:31 Other than that, they could like – just people like Coinbase or whatever. 56:34 People at Coinbase will get fired if they give people the wrong Bitcoin, you know? 56:37 But no one's going to get fired if they give them coin because no one knows the difference. 56:42 No one will even know. 56:43 It's a victimless crime. 56:44 Wasn't there like the real Nero on ETH or something? 56:47 Yeah, so this is – 56:48 Nero on ETH, yeah. 56:49 So Nero on ETH has ended up beating both of them. 56:53 And maybe let's bring up that chart because that one has actually gone up to 200 – 220 million. 57:00 Here we go. 57:01 So this one is winning apparently. 57:03 Look at how green that chart is. 57:06 Green, that means good. 57:07 That's good, yeah. 57:08 We don't want red. 57:09 You approve of this, Paul? 57:11 I like green. 57:12 You like green? 57:15 So – 57:16 I don't know if the name is Nero on ETH. 57:18 It's like the only way to distinguish. 57:20 There's a number of decimal places. 57:22 So I did inquire and I was a bit perplexed because Solana is getting most of the meme coin hype. 57:27 And I asked around. 57:29 I said, why is Nero on ETH the one that's actually at 200 million? 57:33 Everything is like dust. 57:36 And apparently it's because Shiba Inu is Ethereum based and the culture for Shiba is more like Ethereum aligned. 57:46 So screw these Solana guys trying to like steal our meme. 57:50 The Ethereum version is going to be the one that has to win. 57:54 And I guess that's working for now. 57:57 I love that. 57:59 Trying to make someone jealous. 58:02 You flirt with the other girl or whatever. 58:05 Someone said this was a top signal in the comment. 58:07 It's so true. 58:08 I went to Solana and I missed Nero coin. 58:10 I bought this fake Trump Ponzi scam coin and I missed the canonical Nero coin on Ethereum. 58:16 That's terrible. 58:18 Yeah. 58:19 They're distracting you, right? 58:20 They're distracting you from the real prize. 58:22 Yeah. 58:23 So much attention in a given day. 58:26 Scarce resource. 58:28 So Paul, this is what you have to look forward to if L2s and sidechains come to Bitcoin land. 58:34 You'll get a sailor coin. 58:36 You'll get Sailor Moon for sure. 58:39 That will 100% be like the main thing. 58:42 There'll be like a chair coin or something. 58:44 Chair coin. 58:46 I love chair. 58:47 One single chair. 58:49 Limited supply. 58:51 You just won. 58:53 Very illiquid. 58:56 Liquidity is very low because there's only one. 59:00 Let's maybe get some last questions. 59:03 Okay. 59:04 Yeah. 59:05 Yeah. 59:06 Let's go. 59:07 We'll get some last questions for you, Paul, before we go to cost of the week. 59:11 I'll start with one. 59:12 One of the reasons we wanted to have you on was prediction markets. 59:15 And we talked last episode about- 59:17 Yes. 59:18 Most neglected technology of our time. 59:22 It will make the printing press look like Cartoon Network. 59:26 When our descendants among the galaxies look back on this era, it will just be like, when was writing invented? 59:34 When was fire invented? 59:35 When was the printing press invented? 59:37 When was the computer invented? 59:39 When were prediction markets invented is my opinion. 59:42 This is my opinion. 59:43 You're the most bullish- 59:46 Play this clip and put a little slide rule next to my face. 59:50 There is no one as bullish as Paul in the entire universe on prediction markets. 59:56 The printing press has nothing on prediction markets. 59:59 Let's maybe understand why. 1:00:03 So is your thesis that aligning incentives brings in the collective knowledge of society and that collective knowledge makes us make better decisions? 1:00:15 Yes. 1:00:16 We definitely need to combine our knowledge. 1:00:17 But the issue is how. 1:00:19 I mean, it's easier said than done. 1:00:20 Oh, we'll get everyone in a big room and then we'll all talk to each other. 1:00:23 Wait a minute. 1:00:24 That doesn't work at all. 1:00:25 Because it's N squared. 1:00:26 Only so many people can talk at once. 1:00:28 And in fact, people self-censor what they say based on what they think is acceptable. 1:00:34 So even once a committee reaches like 12 people, it becomes useless. 1:00:38 Even if Elon Musk is on the committee. 1:00:41 The only way it works is if one person just says, the other 11 people just shut the fuck up and go home. 1:00:46 I will do this project. 1:00:47 That's the only way the committee will work if you decommittee it. 1:00:50 No art was ever made. 1:00:52 Nothing good ever came out of a committee ever. 1:00:55 But having one guy YOLO it, that's also terrible. 1:01:01 The ideal thing would be if you can combine all of society's knowledge. 1:01:04 So you see aligned incentives, but that's the trick. 1:01:08 It's like saying, oh, the trick to getting to outer space is to just fly a rocket up there. 1:01:13 But it's like, okay, there's like a million things in your way. 1:01:18 A million little decisions you have to make. 1:01:20 So this is the trick. 1:01:22 The prediction market does this. 1:01:23 And one of the reasons why it's so great is that people don't understand the extent to which all of us are self-deluded. 1:01:31 And to which we have been corrupted by these parasites. 1:01:35 They don't know that they're parasites. 1:01:37 I don't mean anything bad. 1:01:40 The reason why Bill O'Reilly had a show. 1:01:42 I'm trying to guess how old all of you are and where you're from or pick a good metaphor. 1:01:46 But Bill O'Reilly was not the most insightful person. 1:01:49 But he had this kind of people, the audience trusted him because he had a certain personality and a background. 1:01:57 And so that was actually good. 1:02:00 Because having some champions of the media, Walter Cronkite, whatever. 1:02:06 This had like a log N scaling, basically, where the society has America has 300 million people. 1:02:12 You have log of that. 1:02:14 Very small. 1:02:15 A few trusted people. 1:02:16 And then people would just say, I'm not going to watch that show anymore if I catch that person in a lie. 1:02:21 Now that was okay. 1:02:22 But this is still not good enough. 1:02:25 Because as we know, with every host, including Bill O'Reilly, they have their own human bias. 1:02:31 They have their own frailties. 1:02:34 And they're captured by the audience also. 1:02:36 We need something where everyone is rooting out error constantly. 1:02:39 And that is what the prediction market does. 1:02:41 Because if there's any error defined as a difference between the current market price and the objective likelihood, the objective reality. 1:02:49 Someone has an incentive to buy the cheaper, sell the more expensive and bring them back into alignment. 1:02:56 And it's a tireless thing where every bias will be rooted out eventually. 1:03:02 Do you expect that society will make important decisions based on the prediction markets, though? 1:03:10 Yes. 1:03:11 It will be like the printing press, where at first everyone will just be like, what the hell is this going on? 1:03:16 And they'll just have no idea what it's doing. 1:03:19 And like the printing press, at first people just used it in the old context. 1:03:26 So as you probably know, all the only people who could read or write were members of the clergy or other various monks of various kinds. 1:03:33 Extreme cultural. 1:03:35 So like these are people copying the Bible by hand. 1:03:38 And so, of course, when the printing press came out, it was, I don't want to say it was pitched to the world. 1:03:44 But I'm just trying to translate it to like a more modern phraseology, if you will. 1:03:50 Where it's like, OK, this is now an easier way to make Bibles and we can give more Bibles to people. 1:03:56 Of course, in a way, this was the last thing that many people wanted, because the way of doing the like way of controlling society included that the priests were the only ones who could interpret the religious scripture and stuff. 1:04:11 As soon as the Lutherans, as soon as some people prioritized everyone being able to read and everyone being able to read the Bible in particular. 1:04:19 As soon as they prioritize that, it led to like a complete revolt against the aristocrats and the king. 1:04:25 And those countries became more of what we might call like a liberal democracy. 1:04:30 So this is an enormous upheaval, just copying the Bible. 1:04:34 Little did people know that what was coming down was the ability to publish pamphlets. 1:04:40 Yeah, I mean, just in the interest of time, like where are we now? 1:04:44 Like is Polymarket, do you like that specific product? 1:04:48 We're like 0.0000% of the way in. 1:04:50 We are not even, we don't even have the first real prediction market that would meet like my standards. 1:04:56 Although we have had, I would say really Intrade started it. 1:05:00 The idea of the custodial foreign U.S. dollar prediction market, Intrade was this company in Ireland because of weird U.S. gambling laws. 1:05:11 And they started this up and it has slowly accumulated steam. 1:05:17 They're having, maybe I would say they have a market scoring real blockchain. 1:05:21 Ethereum would be like level two. 1:05:24 So, but we have to get to like level 50 basically. 1:05:27 So we're very far from what I think we are. 1:05:31 And in particular, what will happen eventually is the public will realize that this is the most reliable way of doing things. 1:05:37 It'd be kind of like gap accounting, where if you're the first person to do gap accounting, it makes it seem like you're a weirdo. 1:05:44 You say, oh, this is this way. 1:05:45 I don't trust my auditors. 1:05:46 I don't trust my company. 1:05:47 I don't trust anyone, any of my employees. 1:05:49 I don't trust, the investors don't trust. 1:05:51 So you'd say, why are they doing that? 1:05:53 But after everyone starts to do it, then now you look weird if you're not doing it. 1:05:57 So we will then reach a flow. 1:05:59 It's good to get that understanding. 1:06:04 And also the fact that we're not anywhere near like, you know, we're at 1.0. 1:06:08 I have a site, bitcoinhivemind.com. 1:06:10 You can read all about my prediction market thoughts if you care about that. 1:06:13 Bitcoinhivemind.com. 1:06:15 Please check it out, guys. 1:06:17 We'll head out to pasta of the week. 1:06:19 I know we're running short on time. 1:06:22 I thought we had the better graphic with like the full, like all the pepes and stuff. 1:06:27 There we go. 1:06:28 This is the one that we need. 1:06:30 Wow. 1:06:31 Thank you. 1:06:32 I love it. 1:06:33 It's great. 1:06:34 All right. 1:06:35 So Taiki, let's kick off with pasta. 1:06:38 Yeah. 1:06:39 So, you know, as a sizable eat holder, this pasta really resonated with me. 1:06:45 Justin, if you can pull it up. 1:06:47 Wait, wait. 1:06:48 No, and it's not this one. 1:06:49 It's not this one. 1:06:50 This is funny, though. 1:06:51 I like this one. 1:06:52 I mean, it's true, right? 1:06:53 This is bullish our bags. 1:06:54 Hashtag copium. 1:06:55 Wait, you don't hear. 1:06:56 Let me, let me share mine. 1:06:57 I got it. 1:06:58 I got it. 1:06:59 I got it. 1:07:00 There you go. 1:07:01 There you go. 1:07:02 Yeah. 1:07:03 You know, bad news. 1:07:04 ETH down. 1:07:05 Good news. 1:07:06 ETH down. 1:07:07 No news. 1:07:08 ETH down. 1:07:09 FUD. 1:07:10 ETH down. 1:07:11 No FUD. 1:07:12 ETH down. 1:07:13 Market's good. 1:07:14 ETH down. 1:07:15 Not good. 1:07:16 ETH down. 1:07:17 ETH goes down a lot. 1:07:18 This is, has been the story of innate holders, a journey for like the past five months. 1:07:23 We just, we keep, they keep, you know, getting us, you know, there's so much hopium on the 1:07:28 timeline. 1:07:29 It's like, oh, it's the ETF. 1:07:30 It has to be bullish. 1:07:31 No. 1:07:32 No. 1:07:33 Like, I feel like everyone kind of expected the ETF to give us like the final exit pump. 1:07:37 And now everyone's trapped because we're all underwater on our lungs. 1:07:41 Sad. 1:07:42 Yeah. 1:07:43 It's too real to be funny, though. 1:07:46 Yeah, it's too real. 1:07:47 I'm sorry. 1:07:48 Shad is going to be more, more sad about this. 1:07:53 Justin, any good one? 1:07:56 I, it's, it's also sad, but it's, it's close to home. 1:08:01 So I'll give some, some background on this one. 1:08:03 So working on a project, we build on-chain applications, right? 1:08:07 And there's always this question of where you're going to launch it. 1:08:09 And you sort of have to play this like mental game of like trying to figure out which is 1:08:13 going to be the hype chain of the next few months. 1:08:15 Is Solana going to be there? 1:08:16 Is it going to be BASE? 1:08:17 Is it going to be Optimism? 1:08:18 Maybe if a Bitcoin Layer 2 ever gets off the ground, like maybe a Bitcoin Layer 2 could 1:08:23 do that. 1:08:24 But like three or four months ago, before the summer started, we're having a little 1:08:28 powwow with our whole team. 1:08:30 Like, where should we go? 1:08:31 And I raised my hand and I say, guys, didn't you hear? 1:08:35 BASE is doing another on-chain summer. 1:08:37 We've got to be on BASE. 1:08:38 Like this summer is going to be lit. 1:08:40 And... 1:08:41 People still say lit? 1:08:43 I thought they changed it to something. 1:08:45 Well, I'm over 30 now, Paul. 1:08:46 So I'm pretty outdated when it comes to the right terminology and stuff. 1:08:50 I'm a boomer. 1:08:51 You need to consult a younger cousin or a niece or something. 1:08:55 Exactly. 1:08:56 Yeah. 1:08:57 You have a new password. 1:08:58 But I think Gwart put this meme out. 1:09:01 How about you come down here and tell us about your little on-chain summer? 1:09:04 And this is sort of what I felt like over the past few months. 1:09:07 Like on-chain summer, what even is that? 1:09:09 I know BASE is activating like a coffee shop where you pay with USDC everywhere. 1:09:13 In a few places. 1:09:15 But there's really been nothing substantial that has come out of this thing. 1:09:19 So that's my story. 1:09:22 That's also very sad. 1:09:25 I resonate with this. 1:09:27 Solid sad. 1:09:28 It's a sad, sad pasta week. 1:09:30 Paul, we decided as a guest you get two pastas. 1:09:34 So you got a bunch of good ones. 1:09:36 I didn't know. 1:09:37 They said find a funny tweet. 1:09:38 Okay. 1:09:39 Can we do the second one? 1:09:40 The space one? 1:09:41 The space one. 1:09:42 Yeah. 1:09:43 Space one first. 1:09:44 You got it. 1:09:45 This one's a little heavy, even though it's also funny. 1:09:47 So this is a hilarious tweet. 1:09:49 I mean, I know it's not crypto-related. 1:09:51 But the people, Boeing, trapped these astronauts in space for like nine months. 1:09:59 They're stuck up there. 1:10:01 And Elon can't even fly up his own thing and get them down. 1:10:05 They would have to lose this. 1:10:07 There's no software. 1:10:08 I mean, it is software-related. 1:10:10 So basically, they can't rescue the humans because they need the humans to fly this Boeing part back to Earth. 1:10:17 The humans have to fly it back to Earth. 1:10:20 So they were supposed to be up there for, like, whatever, like a couple days or something. 1:10:24 Now they're going to be up there until, like, February 2025 or something like that, all because of Boeing and because of software. 1:10:31 So I thought this was pretty funny. 1:10:33 You know, that's just how it goes sometimes. 1:10:37 You're just stuck in space. 1:10:41 Because of Boeing, you're just stuck in space with someone else. 1:10:43 These are all sad postures. 1:10:45 This is like these people are trapped up there. 1:10:47 Well, I mean, the other one I had was really sad. 1:10:49 So can we do that one also? 1:10:52 All right. 1:10:53 Let's do the other one. 1:10:54 I think this is the most accurate description of communism ever established. 1:10:59 Establish a new communist utopia. 1:11:01 Rob or kill the successful. 1:11:04 And then a lot of people don't emphasize this third step. 1:11:07 Everyone always says they kill all the successful people so there won't be any great companies. 1:11:12 But then they forget this third step, force everyone to work for free, the rest. 1:11:18 Like the poor people, they have to farm. 1:11:20 But they don't get to keep what they farm. 1:11:22 It just all goes to someone else. 1:11:24 And then maybe they give you food back. 1:11:28 He knows all about like the farmers getting farmed. 1:11:30 He knows about that. 1:11:32 Yeah. 1:11:33 And also I feel like this screenshot also encapsulates like the Nero and like the Trump coin, like meme coin rugs. 1:11:41 It's just like, oh, that's not the real meme coin. 1:11:43 And they just keep doing this entire thing. 1:11:45 It's not real. 1:11:46 People 50-50, they usually remember that at some point you run out of food and then starve to death. 1:11:52 And then everyone remembers the last second that stay wasn't real communism. 1:11:56 People remember that. 1:11:57 But people, I just thought this is a great description because everyone always forgets that they force everyone to work for free. 1:12:06 Everyone always forgets that step. 1:12:08 And then they just think like, no, there's no Elon Musk so we run out of food. 1:12:11 And it's like, no, because there's no anything. 1:12:14 And then everyone dies. 1:12:16 So I thought, what an accurate tweet. 1:12:21 And I just thought, there you go. 1:12:22 I got a laugh out of that one. 1:12:24 We don't want any communism around here. 1:12:26 That's not good. 1:12:27 No communism. 1:12:28 No communism, please. 1:12:29 All right. 1:12:30 Well, talk about communism. 1:12:32 I'm going to end up with ETH as well. 1:12:34 Another sad ETH tweet just to round it out. 1:12:38 So Eric Wall, who we've spoken to with his little cat there, says, this is my culture. 1:12:45 This is my culture. 1:12:46 Let's listen to the culture here. 1:12:55 Great start. 1:12:57 Thank you so much, Vitalik Buterin. 1:12:59 When you were talking, I saw everyone's eyes sparkling and then fully focused without natural timing of blinking. 1:13:10 So I can tell how much they are looking forward to this precious moment. 1:13:15 Let's give a... 1:13:17 Oh, I'm too excited anymore. 1:13:21 Let's give a big applause. 1:13:24 Okay. 1:13:25 Thank you. 1:13:26 Thank you so much. 1:13:27 These poor people, their English is not their first language. 1:13:30 And so they're trying. 1:13:31 What if we had to speak Chinese? 1:13:33 I mean, it's the sentiment. 1:13:35 The sentiment is, you know, it's not the English. 1:13:38 It's like, she's like... 1:13:40 Yeah, I know. 1:13:41 I know. 1:13:42 She's like, I'm so overwhelmed. 1:13:43 This presentation is going to be the greatest thing ever made. 1:13:47 I love his body stance. 1:13:49 I don't know. 1:13:50 His body posture, his body language is so uncanny. 1:13:56 I've never seen anyone like it. 1:13:58 He's like that guy, like that weird philosopher who's always like moving around, you know? 1:14:03 You know what I'm talking about? 1:14:04 What is his name? 1:14:05 Like Zizak or something? 1:14:07 This is shameful. 1:14:08 It must be a Bitcoin or something. 1:14:10 No, he's like... 1:14:11 He has like a very interesting way of talking. 1:14:12 And he's always like flinching and like... 1:14:15 I guess I don't know who it is, so I shouldn't have brought it up. 1:14:18 Apologies to that person whose work I have read, but I don't remember his name. 1:14:23 The live poll is up, so we'll get some votes. 1:14:27 We'll take a couple of minutes. 1:14:29 But, you know, speaking of Vitalik, it does feel like it's hopefully a time for some reflection about the role of the founders on these chains. 1:14:44 You know, maybe it is good that they take a life of its own. 1:14:47 Even on Solano, we saw that Anatoly was... 1:14:49 He quote tweeted the RTR meme coin thing himself, and he put an American flag before it rugged. 1:14:57 And I think maybe he deleted his tweet. 1:14:59 So, founders are not infallible, even blockchain. 1:15:04 Yeah, but so is Vitalik supposed to be like handcuffed to Ethereum for the rest of his life? Like, is that... Yes. The premise? 1:15:11 Until he goes to 10k. If he goes to 10k, it's okay, he can leave. 1:15:16 Yeah, but I remember when people used to say, wow, if Bitcoin went to a thousand... Can you imagine if Bitcoin went to a thousand dollars? And everyone said that was the moon. 1:15:25 A thousand dollars per coin was the moon. So we go to the moon. And people thought, can you imagine? And I knew people who said that when it went to $2 a coin, they said, or even when it was $1, they said, wow, one Bitcoin is worth more than $1. 1:15:40 That proves that Bitcoin is better than the dollar. I remember when that happened on my Bitcoin talk. So there will always be these people who say, oh, we want more. We want it to be 100,000. 1:15:50 The only thing bearish right now about that is, you know, the founder of Bitcoin can't do anything wrong at this point, you know, he's kind of disappeared, but they're finding faults with everything that Vitalik is doing. 1:16:06 Apparently the poor guy, you know, he got a girlfriend, I think is what it looks like. We'll look at this tweet, but it does look like a girlfriend, boyfriend type of situation going on. And, you know, the Twittersphere started dumping all their Eve because, you know... 1:16:23 He's not going to be as artistically focused on the mission. This is the issue with centralization, though, is that people will try to harass Vitalik or and or whatever, assassinate him or something, which I don't, you know, we don't encourage, but... 1:16:40 Those matching hats, man. 1:16:42 It doesn't necessarily look like that could, you know, women, when they go, when they take the selfie, they often lean in or they do, they try, they pull some kind of, you know... 1:16:54 But he's not even looking at the camera, like her camera. 1:16:57 That's how Justin, remember when Justin was with Suzu in the nightclub and they took a picture, that's how Justin was leaning. Got the line. 1:17:05 No, no, no, no. 1:17:07 I mean, many times, this is like a humble brag, but like people come up to me at a conference and they're like, OK, we take a picture and you're like, what the fuck am I going to say? 1:17:15 No, I can't say no. They could just like stand near me and just take it and then I'm going to look like an idiot. 1:17:20 So, so, yeah, you always just kind of smile and say, sure. And then what are you going to do? Are you going to do the hover hand? You know, people don't like that. People complain no matter what you do. 1:17:31 We have a great, we have an amazing comment, by the way. Somebody says the reason Jump was dumping is because they had a, they front ran the girlfriend news. They had a high frequency feed for the girlfriend news and started dumping. 1:17:44 Smart, actually, it's very smart. That's why they're the best. 1:17:49 You get in, you say, you put in your short, you say, I'm going to short ETH and then you, you hire some, some women and you say, listen, I need you to do Vitalik's girlfriend and we'll make it, we'll make a hundred million dollars. 1:18:03 I hope Marutoshi comes back. I'd love to see what he's up to. 1:18:06 That could work, actually. No, like that could actually work like every day. 1:18:09 Paul, you should have said more of these ideas. These are amazing. This is like a hundred million dollar idea right here. 1:18:17 Someone's going to do this. Someone's going to do this for sure. 1:18:22 All right, so we have the poll results. 1:18:24 Oh, great. 1:18:26 I think, I think the. 1:18:29 Only 10% of listeners voted. First of all, that's a, that's a huge problem. We got to get those numbers up. 1:18:35 The, that video was captivating. 1:18:39 I was on the edge of my seat. 1:18:42 Were you, were you blinking? Were you blinking naturally? 1:18:45 I didn't know what was going to happen. I was like, how, I mean, I feel like that could have gone on and on and on too. 1:18:50 Like maybe it just starts and it's just so just awkward thing about like 12 dimensional hypercubes or whatever. 1:18:56 And you're just like, so awkward and everyone's just like pretending cuts to the audience. 1:19:01 The audience is like pretending to pay attention. 1:19:04 Vitalik's face encapsulated the WTF of that moment. 1:19:10 He's got that like really dramatic hairline now. 1:19:14 The hairline? 1:19:15 His hairline, yes. I remember a young Vitalik. 1:19:19 This is wartime Vitalik. He's got to shave his head and really get rid of his girlfriend and commit to building. 1:19:25 That would be bullish. That would be so bullish. 1:19:27 Then if he meets 10K and he gets like the hair surgery or something or whatever, I don't know, like. 1:19:33 Goes to Turkey. 1:19:36 Oh man. 1:19:37 Or he goes like full Joe Rogan and he's just like MMA fighter, podcaster. 1:19:43 Oh my God. The comments are brutal. 1:19:47 All right, Paul. Well, thank you so much for helping out. 1:19:52 Yo, can we pull up the comment by NG? 1:19:56 I don't see a comment from NG actually. 1:19:59 I don't see any comments other than it must have pulled up. 1:20:02 What does the comment say? 1:20:03 All right. All right, guys. 1:20:06 You know. 1:20:07 You got to pull it up now, Justin. You got to pull it up. 1:20:11 You know. 1:20:13 Oh. 1:20:15 That's dirty, guys. That's dirty. 1:20:18 That's dirty. 1:20:19 No comment about other men's hair. 1:20:21 That's not. Yeah. 1:20:22 Yeah. 1:20:23 Yeah. 1:20:24 Oh man. All right. 1:20:25 You're asking for trouble. Then it will happen to you. That's how it happens. 1:20:29 Oh man. All right. 1:20:31 Well, thanks, everybody, for joining. 1:20:33 Hair cloning, DNA hair cloning. I haven't read that in like five years. 1:20:39 Please like and subscribe. 1:20:40 Thank you to Paul for hopping on this week and sharing everything going on in Bitcoin land. 1:20:47 And we'll see you guys next week. Take care. 1:20:50 Peace.